From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 2: 1:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E4037B401; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58E743EB2; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0372C5194F; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:31:46 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:31:45 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Cliff Sarginson Subject: Re: Compilers are like Gods. They almost never answer prayers Message-ID: <20030105100145.GA14443@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <20030101140530.GA11468@raggedclown.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112345.02a48b70@localhost> <20030104201542.GA10588@raggedclown.net> <3E17535D.15E80093@mindspring.com> <20030105000236.GB739@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <20030105005145.GE10722@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030105005145.GE10722@raggedclown.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 5 January 2003 at 1:51:45 +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > On Sat, Jan 04, 2003 at 04:02:36PM -0800, David Schultz wrote: >> (Not surprisingly, the professor was Richard Fateman. :-) But >> writing a *good* compiler is hard. Getting one to optimize well >> for a dozen target architectures and handle every little detail of >> the C language plus a few reasonable extensions takes a heck of a >> lot of gruntwork. It's not nearly as simple as saying, ``Okay, >> we're going to take a break from kernel hacking for a week and >> write a non-GPL'd C/C++ compiler for FreeBSD.'' > > Bollocks. I took exception to this, and asked Cliff in private mail to learn behave himself. His answer was simple: "No". There aren't many rules to FreeBSD-chat, but Cliff Sarginson has managed to offend against one of them: be respectful. I'm not trying to pretend that he's the only, or in any way the worst one. But after some discussion, the FreeBSD core team has removed him from the list. Cliff, you're welcome to resubscribe. We won't stop you. But if you carry on with this belligerent tone, we may decide to ban you for longer periods of time. Please realise that other people are worthy of respect. Greg Lehey FreeBSD Core Team -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 2:23:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA9037B4F0; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BB243EB2; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 02:23:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0024.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.24] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18V7vu-0006GK-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 02:23:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 02:21:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c0d53df701fbfae6fe889384d7c361b0667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > According to the benchmarks I cited earlier, > http://www.coyotegulch.com/reviews/intel_comp/intel_gcc_bench2.html > (look at the SciMark benchmark) > gcc actually beats intel on the sparse matrix multiply on the > Pentium IV (which generally emerges as Intel's strong platform) and > runs it pretty close on LU decomposition. That's about the only place that g++ beat Intel C++; almost all other cases, the Intel averages 20% faster, and that number goes up to 100% faster for some benchmarks on the P4. I guess people should read the referenced page, instead of trusting summaries in mailing list postings. ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 4:46:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF13937B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 04:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from m20.unixathome.org (m20.unixathome.org [66.11.168.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D41643E4A for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 04:46:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4614B7A1E; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m20.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E1E1E8E; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:46:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:46:29 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@m20.unixathome.org To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chip wiegand , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: freebsdzine.org web site In-Reply-To: <6wof6wmc5l.f6w@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20030105074533.E8398-100000@m20.unixathome.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 Jan 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > chip wiegand writes: > > > I haven't visited the freebsdzine.org web site in some time now, and > > tonite when I went to that address I got a porno site. Did they change > > their url, or let it lapse and lost it? > > I don't know how they lost it, but I think the site's been gone quite a > while. The domain lapsed and someone else has it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 5:34:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA67C37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 05:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BF643EE1 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 05:34:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12d.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.77] helo=dhcp-906-242) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VAvV-0004ui-02 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 05:34:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 58130 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Jan 2003 13:34:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 08:34:40 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Message-ID: <20030105133439.GA55543@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Jan 5, 2003 at 02:21:48: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > According to the benchmarks I cited earlier, > > http://www.coyotegulch.com/reviews/intel_comp/intel_gcc_bench2.html > > (look at the SciMark benchmark) > > gcc actually beats intel on the sparse matrix multiply on the > > Pentium IV (which generally emerges as Intel's strong platform) and > > runs it pretty close on LU decomposition. > > That's about the only place that g++ beat Intel C++; almost all > other cases, the Intel averages 20% faster, and that number goes > up to 100% faster for some benchmarks on the P4. The point is, sparse matrix operations and LU decomposition are exactly the cases Brett is talking about. > I guess people should read the referenced page, instead of trusting > summaries in mailing list postings. ;^). I guess people should read my posts properly and do their research R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 7: 9: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29EE37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao03.cox.net (lakemtao03.cox.net [68.1.17.242]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2153D43EA9 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from vwinxp ([68.11.249.216]) by lakemtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030105150900.GBHY26808.lakemtao03.cox.net@vwinxp> for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:09:00 -0500 From: "Chip Morton" To: "'FreeBSD Chat'" Subject: RE: Stop it Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 09:09:09 -0600 Organization: ThreeSpace Corporation Message-ID: <000001c2b4cc$66b967b0$0d01a8c0@vwinxp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030104210306.1673719D6E@www.fastmail.fm> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org While we're at it, can we remove this poster too? This message offended me far more than anything that Cliff Sarginson said. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG] On Behalf Of Bosko Milekick Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 3:03 PM To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: clsn@raggedclown.net; questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Stop it Okay, so who's that Cliff Sarginson moron? Brett, come one, we all know how much you like bashing the GPL and making fun of those stupid GNU hippies like RMS, but don't feed that stupid troll. That guy is annoying as hell. Also, what's up with that Stacey dude, grow up, fucking negro! Time for another procmail rule it seems. Oh, I almost forgot, fuck Matt Dillon! Regards, -- Bosko Milekick bmilekick@speedpost.net -- http://fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 11: 3:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF0A37B401; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560C043ED8; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21151; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:03:41 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:03:36 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Cc: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20030105133439.GA55543@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:34 AM 1/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >The point is, sparse matrix operations and LU decomposition are >exactly the cases Brett is talking about. Our primary interest wasn't sparse matrix operations. But we did do LU decomposition, and with our code Intel beat GCC by a substantial margin. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 11:21:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C1437B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D4643EC5 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21285; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:21:02 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105121306.02936b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:20:58 -0700 To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Cc: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen), Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:20 PM 1/4/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >But you don't NEED to un-GNU it for many purposes. While copyleft code >is worthless (and so not a free gift) for some purposes (eg, >close-combining with non-GPL code), it still has value as a free gift >for some purposes, like when executing or when a copy is sold on a >CDROM, etc. It's a gift; just not as much of a gift as if it were under >a better license. Again, it's a Trojan horse. The user sees no harm in accepting the gift, but by not using alternatives (particularly commercial alternatives) he is furthering the FSF's "scorched earth" agenda. This, in the long run, hurts him. Those with insidious agendas frequently rely upon the average person's focus on short term benefits and/or lack of knowledge of the "big picture." >> It's effectively servitude, in that by using the code FreeBSD is >> doing Stallman's bidding and promoting his agenda. > >"Servitude" is lack of freedom or involuntary service, neither of which >is implied by their "doing" or "promoting" anything. When you are infected by and propagate a virus, you are, in effect, performing an involuntary service for it. The same is true when you use, promote, propagate, or decline to seek an alternative to GPLed software. You're being used, whether you know it or not. One of the most insidious effects is that you may not promote the creation of a truly free alternative. >> The GPL is more than "restrictive." It's viral, discriminatory, and >> aimed right at programmers' livelihoods. > >And how is any closed-source license better? It is better in that it is not confiscatory, as the GPL is. People do have a right to their own work, but they do not have the right to confiscate that of others. What's more, closed source licensing ensures that people can be paid for their work. The GPL is designed to prevent that from happening. >BTW, the GPL was aimed at software PUBLISHER's livelihoods. RMS >envisaged programmers being paid to write software, not being paid to >let people use their software. Not true. In "The GNU Manifesto," Stallman specifically states that one of the aims of the GPL and the FSF is to ensure that good-paying jobs for programmers are "banned." >I forgot to say that the individuals deserve some blame none-the-less; >sacrifice deserves praise while cowardice and laziness deserve scorn -- >in order to encourage the former and discourage the latter. But it's a >bit Quixotic to think one can influence other's software (or political) >selections, I suppose. Yet, the FSF seems to have done quite well at it -- albeit via deception. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 11:22:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8BA37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D034A43E4A for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21300; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:22:06 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105122127.00d89100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:22:03 -0700 To: tempy , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Another license possibility In-Reply-To: <3E179649.50707@softhome.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:19 PM 1/4/2003, tempy wrote: >I've been following the debate here, and wondered- what would you think of a modified GPL of sorts that is "dormantly viral" >and only spreads with the functions placed under it? This would be functionally similar to the LGPL, except that it's a bit freer >about how the code can be linked to. Sorry, but "a bit freer" doesn't cut it. If it's viral, it's confiscatory -- and that's not good. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 11:26:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFCC37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A681343EE5 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12d.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.77] helo=bluerondo) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VGPR-0005qw-01 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:26:09 -0800 Received: (qmail 6755 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Jan 2003 19:25:57 -0000 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:25:56 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Message-ID: <20030105192556.GA526@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jan 5, 2003 at 12:03:36: > At 06:34 AM 1/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >The point is, sparse matrix operations and LU decomposition are > >exactly the cases Brett is talking about. > > Our primary interest wasn't sparse matrix operations. You did say you were interested in heavily nested loops and floating point arithmetic. Sparse matrix operations qualify. It is interesting, in fact, that gcc does well in all such problems. It doesn't do very well in Gauss-Siedel relaxation (which is a fairly straightforward iterative method) and does quite badly in a monte-carlo integration (which is basically just one long loop with calls to a random number generator and the function evaluator). Again, gcc does well on the mazebench and Stepanov benchmarks, and badly on the rather meaningless Whetstone benchmark. Perhaps Intel produces better "straight" code than gcc -- not surprising if it's their chip -- but gcc actually does better optimization, and therefore catches up on more complex code? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 11:41:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC3837B401; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF8F43EC2; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VGe5-0001v2-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:41:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3E188A0D.EBF00CD5@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:39:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <20030105133439.GA55543@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4cad1cd31d5cb9472b705ced3dff15281350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > That's about the only place that g++ beat Intel C++; almost all > > other cases, the Intel averages 20% faster, and that number goes > > up to 100% faster for some benchmarks on the P4. > > The point is, sparse matrix operations and LU decomposition are > exactly the cases Brett is talking about. > > > I guess people should read the referenced page, instead of trusting > > summaries in mailing list postings. ;^). > > I guess people should read my posts properly and do their research There's a huge variance, and the code in the microbenchmark you want us to reference (while ignoring all the other microbenchmarks there) assumes an implementation of sparse matrix math. In my experience, the correct approach to sparse matrix math is to transform the matrix into one that's less sparse, do the math, and then transform back (if a transform back is even needed). Depending on the math package being used, the microbenchmark in question is not necessarily going to be representative of the real-world performance you can expect out of it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 11:52:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703CE37B401; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3AB43EC2; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 11:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21526; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:52:42 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105125030.02936e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:52:37 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Cc: Terry Lambert , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030105192556.GA526@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 PM 1/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >You did say you were interested in heavily nested loops and floating >point arithmetic. Sparse matrix operations qualify. But using whose algorithms and libraries? We didn't test sparse matrix algorithms because that's not what our code was designed to do. >It is interesting, in fact, that gcc does well in all such problems. Again, using whose code? We consistently found that on ours, Intel was better. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12: 0:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4569A37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBC343E4A for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VGwo-0004Xz-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:00:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3E188E95.63FA837@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:59:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105121306.02936b00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40b89dccf19926e775ce1d9aeb774e2a7548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:20 PM 1/4/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >But you don't NEED to un-GNU it for many purposes. While copyleft code > >is worthless (and so not a free gift) for some purposes (eg, > >close-combining with non-GPL code), it still has value as a free gift > >for some purposes, like when executing or when a copy is sold on a > >CDROM, etc. It's a gift; just not as much of a gift as if it were under > >a better license. > > Again, it's a Trojan horse. The user sees no harm in accepting the gift, > but by not using alternatives (particularly commercial alternatives) > he is furthering the FSF's "scorched earth" agenda. This, in the long > run, hurts him. Those with insidious agendas frequently rely upon > the average person's focus on short term benefits and/or lack of > knowledge of the "big picture." My personal take is that license matters for strategic code, but does not matter at all for tactical code. For tactical code, not only does the license not matter, you are much better off if you give it away; you get these benefits: o You get to dictate the interface to your competitors, which lets you control their performance, somewhat o You unload maintenance costs from your pocket onto the community (minimally), and share them with your competitors (ideally) o You concentrate on only the code that makes you money, instead of spending additional time and effort on code that doesn't, once it minimally works. SAMBA is an example of tactical code; if you are building a small office server, and need to offer CIFS access to it to be competitive, you might as well use SAMBA to do it: the code itself is relatively independent of all other code, and you aren't going to gain any competitive advantage out of using it. So it might as well be GPL'ed. > When you are infected by and propagate a virus, you are, in effect, > performing an involuntary service for it. The same is true when > you use, promote, propagate, or decline to seek an alternative to > GPLed software. You're being used, whether you know it or not. One > of the most insidious effects is that you may not promote the creation > of a truly free alternative. This being California, I know people who say the same thing about "Y" chromosomes... that doesn't make it true... 8-) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12: 1:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7DA37B401; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B348F43EB2; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:01:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21588; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:01:41 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105125940.0293f4e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:01:38 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Cc: Terry Lambert , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030105192556.GA526@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 PM 1/5/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >It is interesting, in fact, that gcc does well in all such problems. Actually, Intel was 20% faster overall on the Pentium IV in the benchmark test you cite. The article says: "On the Pentium III, gcc and Intel run very close together. The Pentium IV tests, however, show a trend that will continue throughout the rest of these tests: Intel produces faster code on almost all tests, and produces code that is 20% faster overall. Only on the Sparse Matrix Multiplication test did gcc generate the fastest code." 20% of a 3 GHz machine is a lot of cycles. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12: 7: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373C737B401; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E1343EA9; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:06:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VH2s-0005Cf-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:06:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3E18900D.10F82814@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:05:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter References: <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <20030105192556.GA526@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43b400d5d0d573557d78eb5f8630ca72a387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > It is interesting, in fact, that gcc does well in all such problems. > It doesn't do very well in Gauss-Siedel relaxation (which is a fairly > straightforward iterative method) and does quite badly in a > monte-carlo integration (which is basically just one long loop with > calls to a random number generator and the function evaluator). Monte Carlo is where I've personally noticed a difference, FWIW. There are a number of packages commonly used in physics work, out of both Berkeley and LBL, which perform Monte Carlo generation of relativistically invariant P-N and N-N collisions, for the purposes of pair production. You then use your theoretical physics to constrain the resulting allowable values, which then simulates what you can expect, according to your theory, were you to run a physical experiment in a large accelerator/collider. It's a useful way of testing theories vs. observed data, to see where they fall down (or not -- one hopes...). In any case, the Intel compiler gives significantly better numbers. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12: 8:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939B937B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58B543EC2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21627; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:08:01 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105130229.029271d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:07:58 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3E188E95.63FA837@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105121306.02936b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:59 PM 1/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >My personal take is that license matters for strategic code, but >does not matter at all for tactical code. It matters in both cases. If "tactical" code is GPLed, you can't look at it or fix it, and the GPL will extinguish alternatives. >SAMBA is an example of tactical code; if you are building a small >office server, and need to offer CIFS access to it to be competitive, >you might as well use SAMBA to do it: the code itself is relatively >independent of all other code, and you aren't going to gain any >competitive advantage out of using it. So it might as well be GPL'ed. I strongly disagree. The fact that SAMBA is GPLed prevents its use to develop competitive operating systems that interact well with Microsoft clients. Thus, SAMBA (perversely) preserves Microsoft's monopoly on commercial operating systems. We recently needed to set up a file repository for a business, and because SAMBA is GPLed, we used WebDAV. We're very happy with that solution. And we can look at the code of mod_dav, because it's under a truly free license. >> When you are infected by and propagate a virus, you are, in effect, >> performing an involuntary service for it. The same is true when >> you use, promote, propagate, or decline to seek an alternative to >> GPLed software. You're being used, whether you know it or not. One >> of the most insidious effects is that you may not promote the creation >> of a truly free alternative. > >This being California, I know people who say the same thing about >"Y" chromosomes... that doesn't make it true... 8-) There's a reason why Dawkins' book was called "The Selfish Gene." Alas, memes are even more selfish than genes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12:28:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC1A37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333E843EC5 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VHNT-0007h0-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:28:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3E189508.E01ACD21@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:26:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105121306.02936b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105130229.029271d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b618f1f30cd08c4823d99de72e2754dba7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:59 PM 1/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > >My personal take is that license matters for strategic code, but > >does not matter at all for tactical code. > > It matters in both cases. If "tactical" code is GPLed, you can't > look at it or fix it, and the GPL will extinguish alternatives. Sure you can: it's just that the result remains GPL. Personally, I don't have a problem with this for tactical code, since tactical code, by definition, has no real commercial value. One common mistake that companies make is an inability to discern the difference between "tactical" and "strategic", and then they go and expend some huge amount of effort defending something of a tactical nature, as if it were strategic. Literally billions of VC dollars have been burned by companies on what were essentially tactical issues, with the company doing the burning eventually failing and going under, as a result. SAMBA is a particularly good example, because SAMBA's whole being, their raison d'ettre, is "to keep up with changes Microsoft makes to their CIFS implementation". SAMBA's job is to fight a holding action in defense of a tactical objective. And by doing that, they prevent the objective from becoming strategic for Microsoft, again. Meanwhile, Microsoft burns tons of money trying to convert the disputed ground into a strategic advantage. Right now, they are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a 32 bit Active Directory record ID jammed into an expansion field in the Kerberos standard, which was never intended to contain a reference to an external implementation. The smart thing for Microsoft to do would be to give away their CIFS code under a license that was not the GPL, but which permitted modification and use by third parties... which would immediately fragment the hell out of the commercial SAMBA support, and, likely, regain Microsoft strategic control over the direction of the standard, when all they have right now is tactical control, because the SAMBA people follow them faster than they can change direction. > >SAMBA is an example of tactical code; if you are building a small > >office server, and need to offer CIFS access to it to be competitive, > >you might as well use SAMBA to do it: the code itself is relatively > >independent of all other code, and you aren't going to gain any > >competitive advantage out of using it. So it might as well be GPL'ed. > > I strongly disagree. The fact that SAMBA is GPLed prevents its use > to develop competitive operating systems that interact well with > Microsoft clients. Thus, SAMBA (perversely) preserves Microsoft's > monopoly on commercial operating systems. No, really, it doesn't. Hosted services are not a function of the OS, and even Microsoft is learning this lesson, and moving such things into the applications layer, where an error or an exploit based on them, doesn't result in the entire system destabilizing. SAMBA can run on any competitive OS you want to name, without the license interacting with the OS license whatsoever. > We recently needed to set up a file repository for a business, and > because SAMBA is GPLed, we used WebDAV. We're very happy with that > solution. And we can look at the code of mod_dav, because it's under > a truly free license. That's a religious argument. I'd like to see the business case for this decision (e.g. something like a 5 year profit/loss estimate difference in the projections based on one choice vs. another). I rather expect that, while the benefit to the business of having something to fill that ecological niche is, for them, strategic, the choice on what actually filled it for them was purely tactical, and had no real strategic motivation past "we need a file repository". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12:33:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C8537B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2.fastmail.fm (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9EE43EE1 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:33:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brettglass@ml1.net) Received: from www.fastmail.fm (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by fastmail.fm (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1ADE34FA; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=www.fastmail.fm) by fastmail.fm with SMTP; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:32:45 -0500 Received: by www.fastmail.fm (Postfix, from userid 99) id E155819A01; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:32:45 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Brett Glass" To: "Brett Glass" Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:32:45 -0800 X-Epoch: 1041798765 X-Sasl-enc: jUadBOlEXQJoVf3l8fjG4Q Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Mike Jeays" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Terry Lambert" Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-Id: <20030105203245.E155819A01@www.fastmail.fm> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:34 PM 1/5/2003, Brett Glass wrote: >It matters in both cases. If "tactical" code is GPLed, you can't >look at it or fix it, and the GPL will extinguish alternatives. You can always implement a clean-room reverse engineered clone, no big deal. >I strongly disagree. The fact that SAMBA is GPLed prevents its use >to develop competitive operating systems that interact well with >Microsoft clients. Thus, SAMBA (perversely) preserves Microsoft's >monopoly on commercial operating systems. There's nothing Microsoft can do, except keep making subtle changes in the CIFS protocol to break compatibility. FIWI, Samba can kiss my ass. If your OS doesn't support NFS natively, it's not worth using. >We recently needed to set up a file repository for a business, and >because SAMBA is GPLed, we used WebDAV. We're very happy with that >solution. And we can look at the code of mod_dav, because it's under >a truly free license. But because you're a professional programmer, like me, you can easily hack a BSD lincensed SMB server in less than 30 minutes. >There's a reason why Dawkins' book was called "The Selfish Gene." Alas, >memes are even more selfish than genes. That book is pure shit, but that's another story. --Brett -- Brett Glass brettglass@ml1.net -- http://fastmail.fm - The professional email service To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12:41:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E545037B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E016143EC2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21854; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:41:19 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105133110.029406f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:41:14 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3E189508.E01ACD21@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105121306.02936b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105130229.029271d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:26 PM 1/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >> It matters in both cases. If "tactical" code is GPLed, you can't >> look at it or fix it, and the GPL will extinguish alternatives. > >Sure you can: it's just that the result remains GPL. No, you can't -- at least not if you want to be sure you can license other things you write under a different license. Remember, so much at looking at GPLed code can prompt accusations that anything similar you later write is derivative and hence must be GPLed. >SAMBA is a particularly good example, because SAMBA's whole being, >their raison d'ettre, is "to keep up with changes Microsoft makes >to their CIFS implementation". SAMBA's job is to fight a holding >action in defense of a tactical objective. And by doing that, they >prevent the objective from becoming strategic for Microsoft, again. They're holding off third parties more than they're holding off Microsoft. They've reduced the market value of CIFS compatibility to zero, so that Microsoft's competitors can't use it as a selling point. And by providing an implementation of the protocol, they prevent it from being avoided by administrators as closed and proprietary. Again, the GPL aids Microsoft and we all lose. >The smart thing for Microsoft to do would be to give away their >CIFS code under a license that was not the GPL, but which permitted >modification and use by third parties... which would immediately >fragment the hell out of the commercial SAMBA support, and, likely, >regain Microsoft strategic control over the direction of the standard, >when all they have right now is tactical control, because the SAMBA >people follow them faster than they can change direction. Why should they? With SAMBA always playing catch-up, and no commercial alternatives, they can now claim that they're the only sure-fire way to do networking on Windows machines. They're in an enviable position. Controlling a public standard isn't so enviable. >No, really, it doesn't. Hosted services are not a function of the OS, They're an important feature of the distribution. >SAMBA can run on any competitive OS you want to name, without the >license interacting with the OS license whatsoever. While it would not force the licensing of the OS to change unless it were integrated, the GPL prevents the OS vendor from adding unique enhancements and being able to profit by doing so. Nor can he do tighter integration. >That's a religious argument. No, it's not. Avoiding a pernicious and Draconian license is pragmatic, not "religious." > I'd like to see the business case for >this decision (e.g. something like a 5 year profit/loss estimate >difference in the projections based on one choice vs. another). They're not tied to Microsoft. That's a huge advantage. >I rather expect that, while the benefit to the business of having >something to fill that ecological niche is, for them, strategic, >the choice on what actually filled it for them was purely tactical, >and had no real strategic motivation past "we need a file repository". Not so. Again, the idea is to keep them free both of Microsoft and the GPL. A course that's increasingly hard to steer when so many people (including FreeBSD) allow the GPL vampire in the door. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12:49:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2293537B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:49:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6753643ED8 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:49:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21914; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:49:06 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105134145.02935820@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:49:01 -0700 To: "Brett Glass" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Mike Jeays" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Terry Lambert" In-Reply-To: <20030105203245.E155819A01@www.fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:32 PM 1/5/2003, Brett Glass wrote: >You can always implement a clean-room reverse engineered clone, no big >deal. It is a big deal -- in time, money, and especially documentation of the clean room process. >There's nothing Microsoft can do, except keep making subtle changes in >the CIFS protocol to break compatibility. FIWI, Samba can kiss my ass. If >your OS doesn't support NFS natively, it's not worth using. Even though NFS implements "security" via the strict and rigorous process of checking IP addresses (and we all know that IP addresses can NEVER be spoofed). ;-) Alas, in the real world, many people run Windows, which does not. The attorneys at this firm are not computer experts, and want a GUI with which they feel comfortable. That means Windows, or (for a few of them) MacOS. (Some of the MacOS users are balking at the MacOS X GUI, though, and are getting Dell machines running Windows XP. Out of the frying pan....) In any event, the minimum license fee to get Windows machines onto NFS is $120 a pop. I recommended NFS (with heavy firewalling), but the cost ruled it right out for this firm. It was either SAMBA or something else that they could get at no cost. >But because you're a professional programmer, like me, you can easily >hack a BSD lincensed SMB server in less than 30 minutes. If SAMBA were truly free, there'd be no need to do so. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 12:59: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4545F37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8B643EB2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 12:58:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21987; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:58:47 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105135758.02926270@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:58:43 -0700 To: "Brett Glass" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Mike Jeays" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Terry Lambert" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:32 PM 1/5/2003, "Brett Glass" (Hah!) wrote: >But because you're a professional programmer, like me, you can easily >hack a BSD lincensed SMB server in less than 30 minutes. In the same way that a professional carpenter can easily build a house in 30 minutes? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 13: 0:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91D837B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2.fastmail.fm (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4377843EB2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:00:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brettglass@ml1.net) Received: from www.fastmail.fm (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by fastmail.fm (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E17FF9D3; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=www.fastmail.fm) by fastmail.fm with SMTP; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:00:46 -0500 Received: by www.fastmail.fm (Postfix, from userid 99) id D06DF1A26C; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:00:46 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Brett Glass" To: "Brett Glass" Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:00:46 -0800 X-Epoch: 1041800446 X-Sasl-enc: uF7QR94MNDiClWjfRz/9jw Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Mike Jeays" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Terry Lambert" Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105134145.02935820@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105134145.02935820@localhost> Message-Id: <20030105210046.D06DF1A26C@www.fastmail.fm> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:49:01 -0700, "Brett Glass" said: > It is a big deal -- in time, money, and especially documentation of > the clean room process. Rome wasn't build in day. Do you remember how the first Compaq PC was build? They did a clean room implementation of the (by then) proprietary IBM PC BIOS. I wonder if, instead of constantly bash GPL alternatives to proprietary products, have you ever contacted the author(s) and/or implemented a BSDL version yourself. I've recently done that, in case you're going to ask: http://www.brettglass.com/downloads/bgcc-0.0.tar.gz > Even though NFS implements "security" via the strict and rigorous > process of checking IP addresses (and we all know that IP addresses > can NEVER be spoofed). ;-) IPsec'd NFS is okay in most cases. Even plain NFS is far better than CIFS. About lack of nfs clients for MS operating systems, have you considered writing one? Or are you just waiting for someone else to do it? Intergraph used to sell a quite okay version, which could be easily fed into IDAPro and reverse engineered in 2-3 weeks. > (for a few of them) MacOS. (Some of the MacOS users are balking > at the MacOS X GUI, though, and are getting Dell machines running > Windows XP. Out of the frying pan....) Install a newbie Linux distro for them, then. > If SAMBA were truly free, there'd be no need to do so. You can probably use e-mail to share files, no big deal. --Brett Glass -- Brett Glass brettglass@ml1.net -- http://fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 13:51:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1164037B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4516843EA9 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:51:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003010521511600100e0kc0e>; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:51:16 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h05LsNBs023741; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h05LsH6U023740; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <200212312041.gBVKfr183480@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E120659.3D60EB30@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104131212.03837e10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104145840.02925620@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104193110.0285a570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105121306.02936b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105130229.029271d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105133110.029406f0@localhost> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Jan 2003 13:54:17 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105133110.029406f0@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > [snip] Remember, so > much at looking at GPLed code can prompt accusations that anything > similar you later write is derivative and hence must be GPLed. I seem to remember someone making a good case that the mere public availability of the source makes makes those accusations possible and that they have some merit (which would make lawyers happy if there were more people to threaten and be threatened). You must convince someone that you haven't seen the source and that can be tough. I hope that courts will (or maybe already have) make some more (and narrower) law related to software derivation. But they've already started off wrong in that the copyright statute says it don't protect ideas, just expressions of ideas, but the courts have already expanded it to cover things like "architecture" in source code, etc. (Not "architectural works" (eg, drawings) which the statue includes, but "architecture"; i.e., design and ideas, things which should be the subject only of patent law, if anything. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 13:58:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5C237B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2.fastmail.fm (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D1943EB2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brettglass@ml1.net) Received: from www.fastmail.fm (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by fastmail.fm (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934A911EB2; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=www.fastmail.fm) by fastmail.fm with SMTP; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 16:58:17 -0500 Received: by www.fastmail.fm (Postfix, from userid 99) id BFB611A185; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:58:17 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Brett Glass" To: "Brett Glass" Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:58:17 -0800 X-Epoch: 1041803897 X-Sasl-enc: ds3nY1NLnTB7Zi8hR9/dAQ Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Mike Jeays" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Terry Lambert" Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105135758.02926270@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105135758.02926270@localhost> Message-Id: <20030105215817.BFB611A185@www.fastmail.fm> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 13:58:43 -0700, "Brett Glass" said: > >But because you're a professional programmer, like me, you can easily > >hack a BSD lincensed SMB server in less than 30 minutes. > > In the same way that a professional carpenter can easily build a house > in 30 minutes? 1 woman needs 9 months to give birth to a baby, 1 programmer needs 9 weeks to hack a CIFS server. 9 women can give birth to a baby in 1 month, 9 programmers can hack a CIFS server in 1 week. Think in terms of team work, Brett. BTW, thanks for the feedbak on my new compiler project. --Brett Glass -- Brett Glass brettglass@ml1.net -- http://fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 14: 6:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A8637B405 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2.fastmail.fm (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C7043E4A for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:06:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brettglass@ml1.net) Received: from www.fastmail.fm (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by fastmail.fm (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E3119E11; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=www.fastmail.fm) by fastmail.fm with SMTP; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 17:06:26 -0500 Received: by www.fastmail.fm (Postfix, from userid 99) id 223801A2DC; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:06:26 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Brett Glass" To: swear@attbi.com Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:06:26 -0800 X-Epoch: 1041804386 X-Sasl-enc: Yf6R5I9enTbi3RT4qkRWgg Cc: "Brett Glass" , "Terry Lambert" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Mike Jeays" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Message-Id: <20030105220626.223801A2DC@www.fastmail.fm> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: >I seem to remember someone making a good case that the mere public >availability of the source makes makes those accusations possible and >that they have some merit (which would make lawyers happy if there were >more people to threaten and be threatened). You must convince someone >that you haven't seen the source and that can be tough. That's exactly the reason why Microsoft employees cannot look at GPL'd code. GPL is free as in herpes. That's the reason why I never touch GPL'd code. But, has the GPL ever been tested successfully in court? Wouldn't it be funny if it failed to do so and, suddenly, RMS started getting mails with "IN SOVIET RUSSIA, THE GPL FAILS TO TEST YOU!" in the subject line? >ideas, just expressions of ideas, but the courts have already expanded >it to cover things like "architecture" in source code, etc. (Not >"architectural works" (eg, drawings) which the statue includes, but >"architecture"; i.e., design and ideas, things which should be the >subject only of patent law, if anything. In RMS' ideal world, the commu^H^H^H^H^H fsf has a full software monopoly, and no commercial software exists. -- Brett Glass -- Brett Glass brettglass@ml1.net -- http://fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 14:24:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC8737B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCA043ED1 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <2003010522243805100nj0g6e>; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:24:38 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h05MRpBs024215; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:27:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h05MRkeG024214; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:27:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105125940.0293f4e0@localhost> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Jan 2003 14:27:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105125940.0293f4e0@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > 20% of a 3 GHz machine is a lot of cycles. Roughy 20% of them. You'd have to sell a whole lot of compilers to balance the cost of a replacement compiler with the savings of 20% fewer computers that run the compilers, being especially hard since there are many fewer compilers than computers. Taking this to the free software world, 20% would hardly enough to merit tying up a team of gcc-replacement programmers, keeping them away from more useful (in general) projects they could effect in 100% sort of ways. There's evidence in the fact that nobody's found it worthwhile in the last decade, even when the percentage was much larger than 20%. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 14:31: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54EA37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from server2.fastmail.fm (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E27E43EC2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 14:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brettglass@ml1.net) Received: from www.fastmail.fm (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by fastmail.fm (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7076077; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=www.fastmail.fm) by fastmail.fm with SMTP; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 17:30:58 -0500 Received: by www.fastmail.fm (Postfix, from userid 99) id A84561A191; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:30:58 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Brett Glass" To: swear@attbi.com Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 14:30:58 -0800 X-Epoch: 1041805858 X-Sasl-enc: 4vP1xPEBwqbIAuUnMP4dDA Cc: "Brett Glass" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Message-Id: <20030105223058.A84561A191@www.fastmail.fm> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen writes: >> 20% of a 3 GHz machine is a lot of cycles. >Roughy 20% of them. You'd have to sell a whole lot of compilers to >balance the cost of a replacement compiler with the savings of 20% fewer >computers that run the compilers, being especially hard since there are >many fewer compilers than computers. Taking this to the free software Take your time to study the excellent essay that Bernard Shifman(1) Consulting published on the subject. 20% is a lot of time. It's the difference between getting the job done or not at all. >world, 20% would hardly enough to merit tying up a team of >gcc-replacement programmers, keeping them away from more useful (in >general) projects they could effect in 100% sort of ways. There's >evidence in the fact that nobody's found it worthwhile in the last >decade, even when the percentage was much larger than 20%. Moore's Law is about to end, and as time passes, people will realize the performance matters. As of now, most people are just happy with mediocre programs, just because they're free. You could take a dump on a plastic bag and people like RMS would approve it as long as it carried a GPL sticker. (1) http://www.petemoss.com/spamflames/ShifmanIsAMoronSpammer.html --Brett Glass -- Brett Glass brettglass@ml1.net -- http://fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 15: 4: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF71937B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F3843EA9 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:03:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h05N3D148529; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:03:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301052303.h05N3D148529@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:03:08 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > At 09:20 PM 1/4/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> When you are infected by and propagate a virus, you are, in effect, >> performing an involuntary service for it. The same is true when >> you use, promote, propagate, or decline to seek an alternative to >> GPLed software. You're being used, whether you know it or not. One >> of the most insidious effects is that you may not promote the creation >> of a truly free alternative. > This being California, I know people who say the same thing about > "Y" chromosomes... that doesn't make it true... 8-) LOL! Extremely amusing to see your analogy machine crank this gem out. ;) However, in the general case, I think you rely too much on analogy in your arguments. This is a big part of why we can't see eye-to-eye. An analogy is not the thing. I'm not saying to stop making them either, this one was worth it. You must live up north. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the victims he intends to eat until he eats them. -- Samuel Butler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 15:14:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8E037B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE8643ED8 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0406.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.151] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VJyG-0003zA-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:14:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3E18BBFC.85C1303C@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:13:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105125940.0293f4e0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46dc1da8e9a827b530cfa992abcdbf951a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Brett Glass writes: > > 20% of a 3 GHz machine is a lot of cycles. > > Roughy 20% of them. You'd have to sell a whole lot of compilers to > balance the cost of a replacement compiler with the savings of 20% fewer > computers that run the compilers, being especially hard since there are > many fewer compilers than computers. Taking this to the free software > world, 20% would hardly enough to merit tying up a team of > gcc-replacement programmers, keeping them away from more useful (in > general) projects they could effect in 100% sort of ways. There's > evidence in the fact that nobody's found it worthwhile in the last > decade, even when the percentage was much larger than 20%. Rule #4: You can not schedule volunteer Open Source software work unless you are prepared to do it personally. This is frequently expressed as "Patches, please?" or "You forgot to attach a URL: for your code!" or "Code speaks louder than words" or "Speak for yourself!"; there are also an astonishing variety of less polite ways it gets said, but it's always the same message. There are certain circumstances where this rule doesn't hold true, but they are all "boss/employee", "teacher/student", or some similar relationship, where the person scheduling the work has some form of economic hold on the person who's efforts are being scheduled: thus, it's technically not actually volunteer effort. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 15:21: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956BD37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06E9043EC5 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chipster.wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id ADE822370064; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 15:21:12 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:32:13 -0800 From: chip wiegand To: Dan Langille Cc: swear@attbi.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsdzine.org web site Message-Id: <20030105153213.48a08455.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: <20030105074533.E8398-100000@m20.unixathome.org> References: <6wof6wmc5l.f6w@localhost.localdomain> <20030105074533.E8398-100000@m20.unixathome.org> Organization: Alternative Operating Systems X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 07:46:29 -0500 (EST) Dan Langille wrote: > On 4 Jan 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > chip wiegand writes: > > > > > I haven't visited the freebsdzine.org web site in some time now, > > > and tonite when I went to that address I got a porno site. Did > > > they change their url, or let it lapse and lost it? > > > > I don't know how they lost it, but I think the site's been gone > > quite a while. > > The domain lapsed and someone else has it. That's too bad, what a drag. The same thing happened to the local freebsd users group here in the Seattle area. -- Chip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 19: 0:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4A337B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1966F43E4A for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:00:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <20030106030038002000i95te>; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 03:00:38 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0633nBs028527; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:03:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h0633ikH028526; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104202908.03c3b100@localhost> <20030105073804.GA72674@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030105074923.GA4956@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E18073C.68182FE4@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105120224.029377d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030105125940.0293f4e0@localhost> <3E18BBFC.85C1303C@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 05 Jan 2003 19:03:43 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E18BBFC.85C1303C@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Rule #4: You can not schedule volunteer Open Source software > work unless you are prepared to do it personally. You almost certainly cannot influence the outcome of a national election, either, but you vote anyway. You do it to have some small effect on the thinking of people who see the returns. (At least, that's the only sensible reason I've heard.) Of course in OSS, the more you work, the more effect you'll have on others. (Approximately.) The rule needs modification: You cannot meet the schedule unless you... -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 19:16: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049D737B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7519D43EB2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:16:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h063G0N7002091; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:16:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h063FthO002090; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:15:55 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter Message-ID: <20030106031555.GB1938@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104112015.026a5530@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030104201251.029387d0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Brett Glass : > At 04:25 PM 1/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >GCC 3.2.1 seems to perform around as well, on my code, as Intel's > >compiler. > > Depends on your code. A program consisting mostly of function calls > isn't going to be much of a challenge for any compiler. But try some > serious nested loops, or floating point, and GCC generates about the > most naive code you could imagine. You could do better dashing it off > in assembly language. My own experience has been that recent versions of GCC 2 botch floating point horribly. Any time the compiler encounters code containing floating point, it starts managing the stack and registers poorly, it doesn't find loop invariants anymore, and other optimiztions go out the window. However, GCC 3 fixes all of these problems in the examples I have tried, so evidently the developers did something right. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 20: 0:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F1037B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from minime.wossname.net (12-222-103-140.client.insightBB.com [12.222.103.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C62E43EC2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:00:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bhlewis@wossname.net) Received: from akira.wossname.net (akira.wossname.net [192.168.1.2]) by minime.wossname.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4832F5DC; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by akira.wossname.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B265561; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:00:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Backup Solutions From: Benjamin Lewis To: Brad Knowles Cc: Tim , chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> <20030101124419.GA14165@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20030105051402.GA2710@sleepy.wojomedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1041825639.793.65.camel@akira.wossname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 05 Jan 2003 23:00:40 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 00:52, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:14 PM -0600 2003/01/04, Tim wrote: > > >> In what way? How does it keep a library of what tape is used for > >> what content? Amanda keeps indexes that detail exactly what content is on which tape. If you need to recover a specific file or an entire filesystem, Amanda will tell you which tapes will need to be loaded. > > > > RTFM at www.amanda.org. > > There doesn't appear to be much of anything useful there. Nor at > . There's a tarball, but > not much more. > Terry Lambert already pointed you to the "chapter" at backupcentral.com: http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda-1.html > > >> How does it keep track of how many times a particular > >> tape has been used, so that you know when it should be retired? > > > > This has nothing to do stackers and libraries. Even if you have a > > single drive, you might want this ability anyway. I don't recall off > > the top of my head whether Amanda does this - it's certainly trivial > > to add a small script to look at the tape usage everyday and make > > this computation, if Amanda doesn't do this already. > > No, I submit that these things do have to do with stackers and > libraries. It doesn't do you much good to use a stacker if the only > support is "eject this tape and give me the next one" when you get to > the end of the stack of tapes, and all the ones that have been > ejected so far have fallen onto the floor. A backup system requires > more intelligence regarding tape management. Amanda will use any tape library or stacker that the OS can talk to. We're relatively lucky on FreeBSD because the chio and mt programs are included in the default install (although the ch driver isn't included in GENERIC kernels before 5.0). The third-party tape drive/ media changer controller "mtx" is also available (/usr/ports/misc/mtx). Amanda includes support for media changers by calling a specified changer script/program when it needs to load or unload a tape. Included in the distribution are several different changers; one talks directly to a SCSI media changer using the passthrough device (chg-scsi),one uses mtx (chg-mtx), and there is one for chio (chg-chio) but I'm not altogether certain that it works correctly. I have used chg-scsi and chg-mtx in the past. At the moment I'm using one that I wrote that uses chio to control my Q7. In the past, I also used a self-written changer to talk to an ancient carousel changer over an RS232 connection. Writing a changer script is quite simple if need be; usually the supplied scripts are sufficient (I only wrote the one I'm using now for the fun of it). The changer scripts/programs themselves can take care of usage counts, auto-cleaning, etc. I believe several of the supplied scripts do take care of cleaning the drive every N tape loads but I don't think any of them worry about the number of times a particular tape has been loaded. Of course, one is free to add any functionality one wants! As for backing up Windows systems, I think you misunderstood why Terry referred to Samba. Amanda can use smbclient to dump a tar file of a share on a Windows box (like smbtar). I've used that in the past and frankly find it less than optimal -- the dump takes a long time and is prone to failures. I have also used the amanda-win32 and the latest version seems to work pretty well. Someone has posted to one of the Amanda mailing lists that he was able to get Amanda to compile (and work) under Cygwin but hasn't posted the patches just yet. However, since you refer to laptops and wireless VPN connections, etc., I would recommend that you just use the native Windows backup tools to dump a backup file onto a Samba share on a Unix box that Amanda can back up normally. For Mac OS X: someone posted patches this past week to get Amanda working with gnutar on OS X. Various others had reported success in the past but those are the first actual patches that I've seen. At this point, there is only one reason that I might hesitate to recommend Amanda to anyone with a little Unix experience: it cannot span a single backup image over more than one tape. It can use more than one tape during a backup *run*, but if any of the backups is larger than the tape the backup will fail. At work we use Amanda extensively and we're just careful about keeping filesystems smaller than tapes (or else buying drives with higher capacity) but if you've got a bunch of 80gig drives and only a 4mm tape drive then you're likely to hit this restriction big time. -Ben -- Benjamin Lewis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 20:11:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281CD37B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852D743E4A for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ianjp@hypermax.net.au) Received: from hypermax.net.au (golax4-108.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.147.108]) by mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h064BHN28750; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 15:11:18 +1100 Message-ID: <3E1901F1.573F31A5@hypermax.net.au> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:11:29 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randall Hamilton Cc: Cliff Sarginson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fish ? Who mentioned Fish ? References: <200301022105.h02L5Z100374@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <20030103001644.GD969@raggedclown.net> <3E14F300.574CA204@mindspring.com> <20030103030240.GG969@raggedclown.net> <006e01c2b2e2$9aa84ff0$0301a8c0@nitedog> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall Hamilton wrote: > As i said before, death is a part of war. if you want to live in your > sheltered life, and pretend none of this relates to you....fine. how many of > your own citizens have to die before you think it is 'a problem'? does > someone have to drop a plane into one of your cities before you begin to > think that maybe, just maybe, there is a greater scale to this all....and > maybe we should try and stop it. > > It really is funny, the amount of people that are the first to speak out > against war, are also those countries that are so sheltered that war is > never an issue for them. not just because they pretend they are better then > everyone, but because they lack the resources, manpower, and will to do what > must be done. > > funny indeed. Actually it is not too long ago that IRA bombs were going off in London. Ian Pulsford To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 22:27:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E090937B405 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1357F43ED1 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.140] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VQjR-0006US-00; Sun, 05 Jan 2003 22:27:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E192162.461C3DCA@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 22:25:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. References: <200301052303.h05N3D148529@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ada6c7253a500b2fc1a2ac85a64a74e7666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > However, in the general case, I think you rely too much on analogy > in your arguments. This is a big part of why we can't see eye-to-eye. > An analogy is not the thing. "Eye-to-eye"; that's a metaphor, isn't it? 8-) 8-) 8-). > You must live up north. Must I? Do you insist? "Dogs Must Be Leashed" 8^p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 22:31:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C81737B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sleepy.wojomedia.com (sleepy.wojomedia.com [216.107.102.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3452043EC2 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@sleepy.wojomedia.com) Received: (qmail 25387 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jan 2003 06:31:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:31:17 -0600 From: Tim To: Brad Knowles Cc: Benjamin Lewis , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Message-ID: <20030106063117.GA25282@sleepy.wojomedia.com> References: <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> <20030101124419.GA14165@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20030105051402.GA2710@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <1041825639.793.65.camel@akira.wossname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > span a single backup image over more than one tape. > > Ahh, yes. That would be a killer. I have a 40GB hard drive in > this PowerBook G4, with one partition/filesystem of 15GB and another > of 19GB, and I don't know of any reasonably priced tapes that can > hold that much data -- I don't trust the Ecrix VXA stuff, because > they got bought by Exabyte, who has a vested interest in seeing the > technology die in favour of their in-house stuff. If you use tar, you can breakup the partition into smaller portions. This has always been the most requested feature in Amanda. I always ended up going back to Amanda though, despite the limitations. Once you get it going, it is very reliable and requires little or no maintenance. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 5 23: 0:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9E737B401 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C963E43EC5 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:00:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h066x9150997; Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:59:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301060659.h066x9150997@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Mike Jeays , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 22:59:04 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> However, in the general case, I think you rely too much on analogy >> in your arguments. This is a big part of why we can't see eye-to-eye. >> An analogy is not the thing. > "Eye-to-eye"; that's a metaphor, isn't it? 8-) 8-) 8-). Not in your case. =P >> You must live up north. > Must I? Do you insist? No, I conclude. I could be wrong, but your intellectual arrogance fits the statistically expected persona you find there. ;) ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< A man appointed to be judge has been killed without a knife. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 0: 3:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FE237B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5762943EB2 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:03:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (shub@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id h065iSf17432; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 00:44:28 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1041825639.793.65.camel@akira.wossname.net> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> <20030101124419.GA14165@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20030105051402.GA2710@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <1041825639.793.65.camel@akira.wossname.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:47:27 -0600 To: Benjamin Lewis From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Cc: Brad Knowles , Tim , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:00 PM -0500 2003/01/05, Benjamin Lewis wrote: > Terry Lambert already pointed you to the "chapter" at backupcentral.com: > > http://www.backupcentral.com/amanda-1.html Sorry, I must have missed that. I do have both of Curt's books, and have given advice to him regarding some of the website changes that he's made over the years (along with my fellow former CT co-workers), but I must confess that there are a few bits of his site that I may not have seen or may not have seen recently. > However, since you refer to laptops and wireless VPN connections, etc., > I would recommend that you just use the native Windows backup tools to > dump a backup file onto a Samba share on a Unix box that Amanda can > back up normally. I've done that sort of thing with my wife's previous laptop (which is now my FreeBSD server), and the problem is that I don't think that the backup image is readable with the newer tools. I want something that will continue to be readable even after her next OS upgrade, and I don't trust Microsoft to allow me to do that. Are there any other good W2K backup tools that are available (freely or relatively inexpensive) and which are reasonably likely to have good forward compatibility? Legato Networker is not likely to be an option here. > For Mac OS X: someone posted patches this past week to get Amanda > working with gnutar on OS X. Various others had reported success in > the past but those are the first actual patches that I've seen. Cool. > At this point, there is only one reason that I might hesitate to > recommend Amanda to anyone with a little Unix experience: Well, I've been doing Unix system administration for fourteen years, but backups (especially with mixed client platforms) is one particular area that I haven't gotten into. You're not going to scare me with the concept of getting Amanda to work on MacOS X, or using Amanda in general -- I've been around too long for that. However, there are some deeper issues that I remain concerned about. > it cannot > span a single backup image over more than one tape. Ahh, yes. That would be a killer. I have a 40GB hard drive in this PowerBook G4, with one partition/filesystem of 15GB and another of 19GB, and I don't know of any reasonably priced tapes that can hold that much data -- I don't trust the Ecrix VXA stuff, because they got bought by Exabyte, who has a vested interest in seeing the technology die in favour of their in-house stuff. > It can use more > than one tape during a backup *run*, but if any of the backups is > larger than the tape the backup will fail. At work we use Amanda > extensively and we're just careful about keeping filesystems smaller > than tapes (or else buying drives with higher capacity) but if you've > got a bunch of 80gig drives and only a 4mm tape drive then you're likely > to hit this restriction big time. Especially since I'm just about to really get into editing home video digitally, and I need to dump all the video I've captured (several 80 minute MiniDV tapes) and then start putting all that together. I may need a terabyte of storage or more, but so long as I buy ultra-high capacity and relatively inexpensive drives, I think I can RAID them at the server and still keep the costs within reasonable limits. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 5:22:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CE237B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4815343ED1 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3D1ED908; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:22:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF49905; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:22:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 05:22:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030106051858.U33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:00 PM -0500 2003/01/05, Benjamin Lewis wrote: [AMANDA, and its major flaw] > > It can use more > > than one tape during a backup *run*, but if any of the backups is > > larger than the tape the backup will fail. At work we use Amanda > > extensively and we're just careful about keeping filesystems smaller > > than tapes (or else buying drives with higher capacity) but if you've > > got a bunch of 80gig drives and only a 4mm tape drive then you're likely > > to hit this restriction big time. > > Especially since I'm just about to really get into editing home > video digitally, and I need to dump all the video I've captured > (several 80 minute MiniDV tapes) and then start putting all that > together. > > I may need a terabyte of storage or more, but so long as I buy > ultra-high capacity and relatively inexpensive drives, I think I can > RAID them at the server and still keep the costs within reasonable > limits. Repeat after me: RAID is NOT a backup. You're smarter than this Brad, there are many reasons to do backups, and disk failure is one of the least common reasons (ie, how many times have you had to restore user files deleted accidentally vs. due to hardware failure?) Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 6: 4:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5DC37B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D2443EB2 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.147.188.198]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003010614042105200qkv50e>; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:04:21 +0000 Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.147.188.198] (may be forged)) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h06E4KBq021929; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:04:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h06E4J5h021926; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:04:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: be-well.ilk.org: lowell set sender to freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org using -f To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Backup Solutions References: <20030106051858.U33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 06 Jan 2003 09:04:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20030106051858.U33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Message-ID: <444r8mnzmk.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Lines: 39 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > At 11:00 PM -0500 2003/01/05, Benjamin Lewis wrote: > > [AMANDA, and its major flaw] > > > > It can use more > > > than one tape during a backup *run*, but if any of the backups is > > > larger than the tape the backup will fail. At work we use Amanda > > > extensively and we're just careful about keeping filesystems smaller > > > than tapes (or else buying drives with higher capacity) but if you've > > > got a bunch of 80gig drives and only a 4mm tape drive then you're likely > > > to hit this restriction big time. > > > > Especially since I'm just about to really get into editing home > > video digitally, and I need to dump all the video I've captured > > (several 80 minute MiniDV tapes) and then start putting all that > > together. > > > > I may need a terabyte of storage or more, but so long as I buy > > ultra-high capacity and relatively inexpensive drives, I think I can > > RAID them at the server and still keep the costs within reasonable > > limits. > > Repeat after me: > > RAID is NOT a backup. > > You're smarter than this Brad, there are many reasons to do backups, and > disk failure is one of the least common reasons (ie, how many times have > you had to restore user files deleted accidentally vs. due to hardware > failure?) You misunderstood him. Because he's adding RAID storage, he will have larger filesystems, and larger amounts of data to back up to tape. Thus, overrunning a single tape will be more of a problem for him than in the past. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 11:14:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093C137B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F44043EC5 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0398.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.143] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18VchI-00054C-00; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:14:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3E19D528.3314008E@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:12:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Benjamin Lewis , Tim , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Backup Solutions References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> <20030101124419.GA14165@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20030105051402.GA2710@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <1041825639.793.65.camel@akira.wossname.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a403c5e00945e80c27fe4042fbcbe68c7a3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > Are there any other good W2K backup tools that are available > (freely or relatively inexpensive) and which are reasonably likely to > have good forward compatibility? Legato Networker is not likely to > be an option here. Try WinZip. > > For Mac OS X: someone posted patches this past week to get Amanda > > working with gnutar on OS X. Various others had reported success in > > the past but those are the first actual patches that I've seen. > > Cool. This still only backs up the data forks of files in HFS and HFS2. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 11:17: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E9337B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:17:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C95343EC5 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18Vcjg-0000n4-00; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:16:32 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:16:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chip wiegand Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) In-Reply-To: <20030105153213.48a08455.chip@wiegand.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, chip wiegand wrote: > > The domain lapsed and someone else has it. > > That's too bad, what a drag. The same thing happened to the local > freebsd users group here in the Seattle area. Any BSD users in Seattle area wanting to organize (or re-organize) a BSD users group? I started attending GSLUG a couple months ago, but it would be nice to have a BSD group too. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 11:20:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B97737B401; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CDA43EC2; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18VcnC-0000nC-00; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 11:20:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: chip wiegand , Subject: BSD booth at (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) In-Reply-To: <20030105153213.48a08455.chip@wiegand.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Also, any BSD users in area from Vancouver BC down to Portland, Oregon that would be interested in helping run a BSD booth at the LinuxFest Northwest event in April in Bellingham, Washington? I already signed up for a BSD booth; I can get more if we have enough volunteers. I cc'd this to freebsd-advocacy. (And I'll provide more details there later.) Maybe we can just use freebsd-advocacy for follow-ups. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 11:34:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F81337B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03F643EDC for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:34:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@goepp.com) Received: from dpg (h002078d5d728.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.62.123.170]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP id <200301061934350020060lhhe>; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:34:35 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Daniel Goepp" To: Subject: RE: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:34:04 -0500 Message-ID: <001401c2b5ba$92760db0$6a32a8c0@dpg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Was just thinking about this a little. And was thinking I would like the same thing here in Western Mass. I have a couple friends in the area that I know use BSD, but it would be nice to setup a group here too. But this is probably true of all corners of the world. There is the list of all the user groups on the FreeBSD page, but they all appear to be pretty independent of each other. Seems like it would be nice if there was one "User Group" page setup on the FreeBSD site, and people from all around the world could register, and automatically get put into localized and regional groups. Thus taking much of the load off people to try to organize all the different groups. Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Etc... -Daniel -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG] On Behalf Of Jeremy C. Reed Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 2:17 PM To: chip wiegand Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, chip wiegand wrote: > > The domain lapsed and someone else has it. > > That's too bad, what a drag. The same thing happened to the local > freebsd users group here in the Seattle area. Any BSD users in Seattle area wanting to organize (or re-organize) a BSD users group? I started attending GSLUG a couple months ago, but it would be nice to have a BSD group too. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 11:38:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8D237B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1A943F0A for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) id h06JcI4m023691; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:38:18 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (electron.centtech.com [204.177.173.173]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h06JcGNG023684; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:38:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3E19DB2A.5010901@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:38:18 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd@goepp.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) References: <001401c2b5ba$92760db0$6a32a8c0@dpg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel Goepp wrote: > Was just thinking about this a little. And was thinking I would like > the same thing here in Western Mass. I have a couple friends in the > area that I know use BSD, but it would be nice to setup a group here > too. But this is probably true of all corners of the world. There is > the list of all the user groups on the FreeBSD page, but they all appear > to be pretty independent of each other. Seems like it would be nice if > there was one "User Group" page setup on the FreeBSD site, and people > from all around the world could register, and automatically get put into > localized and regional groups. Thus taking much of the load off people > to try to organize all the different groups. > > Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Etc... We're talking about a site on the -advocacy list right now, that could incorporate this too fairly easily.. I think it's a good idea.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 11:53:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B63437B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7ED843EB2 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@goepp.com) Received: from dpg (h002078d5d728.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.62.123.170]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with SMTP id <2003010619532900300lbtpte>; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:53:29 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Daniel Goepp" To: "'Eric Anderson'" Cc: Subject: RE: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:52:58 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c2b5bd$36560a50$6a32a8c0@dpg> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <3E19DB2A.5010901@centtech.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the info, I will subscribe to that list too then... Peace. -Daniel -----Original Message----- From: Eric Anderson [mailto:anderson@centtech.com] Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 2:38 PM To: freebsd@goepp.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) Daniel Goepp wrote: > Was just thinking about this a little. And was thinking I would like > the same thing here in Western Mass. I have a couple friends in the > area that I know use BSD, but it would be nice to setup a group here > too. But this is probably true of all corners of the world. There is > the list of all the user groups on the FreeBSD page, but they all appear > to be pretty independent of each other. Seems like it would be nice if > there was one "User Group" page setup on the FreeBSD site, and people > from all around the world could register, and automatically get put into > localized and regional groups. Thus taking much of the load off people > to try to organize all the different groups. > > Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Etc... We're talking about a site on the -advocacy list right now, that could incorporate this too fairly easily.. I think it's a good idea.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Beware the fury of a patient man. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 6 18: 5:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44D737B401 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4386C43ED4 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:05:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chipster.wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A5FE2E930124; Mon, 06 Jan 2003 18:05:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:16:57 -0800 From: chip wiegand To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) Message-Id: <20030106181657.60b5529f.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20030105153213.48a08455.chip@wiegand.org> Organization: Alternative Operating Systems X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.2claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 11:16:32 -0800 (PST) "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > Any BSD users in Seattle area wanting to organize (or re-organize) a > BSD users group? I started attending GSLUG a couple months ago, but it > would be nice to have a BSD group too. > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ I certainly am. Only problem I've had in the past with previos meetings was time and location. I won't be able to administer or direct, but I can certainly help out wherever and whenever possible. -- Chip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 7 12:18:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E8A37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5A943ED1 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:18:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h07KMWnf001619 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:22:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: OT: This is slightly annoying Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 21:18:35 +0100 Message-ID: <006a01c2b689$f5a94080$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I'm new to this list and have a question. What is up with the Brett Glass clones? Reading some of this stuff almost makes you think someone has split personalities or is psycho and carrying on a conversation with themselves. This looks like someone is trying to impersonate someone else (which would be amusing if it weren't so pathetic... then again, I could be wrong.. maybe the other person really is (or think they are) Brett Glass)... Will the "real" and "original" Brett Glass please stand up (original meaning the one who's been here/with freebsd the longest). Sorry, just my 2 cents. :) -Stacy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 7 12:37:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998C437B401 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3640843EE1 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@egypt7000.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC8F1C377B; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 050483F6C; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:37:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:37:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brett Glass To: "Stacy Olivas" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: This is slightly annoying Reply-To: brett@egypt7000.com X-Originating-Ip: [61.32.11.130] Message-Id: <20030107203714.050483F6C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stacy Olivas wrote: >What's up with the Brett Glass clones? Reading some of this >stuff almost makes you think someone has split personalities >or is psycho and carrying on Yes, it's quite annoying. Apparently it started after I announced my new alternative compiler (http://www.brettglass.com/downloads/bgcc-0.0.tar.gz), and someone with poor coding skills (is that you Matt?) started feeling jealous of my success, and started to post all that crap. >a conversation with themselves. This looks like someone is >trying to impersonate someone else (which would be amusing if Some of his posts are actually fun. >pathetic... then again, I could be wrong.. maybe the other >person really is (or think they are) Brett Glass)... The other Brett Glass is a fake. It's very easy to tell if you read carefully what he told me last time: "My name is Brett Glass / the all time great / I go trolling around / In New York state!" Note the New York thing? I live in Wyoming. >Will the "real" and "original" Brett Glass please stand up >(original meaning the one who's been here/with freebsd the >longest). Pleased to meet you. Sincerely, The Real Brett Glass (to the rescue) _____________________________________________________________ gifts, travel, e-cards, free e-mail, and more! .......... http://www.egypt7000.com .......... _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 7 17:21:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3430837B401 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from horkos.telenet-ops.be (horkos.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DD043ED8 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from philip@paeps.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by horkos.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with SMTP id D5C6284588 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:21:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from fortuna.home.paeps.cx (D5768746.kabel.telenet.be [213.118.135.70]) by horkos.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8501184321 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:21:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from juno.home.paeps.cx (juno.home.paeps.cx [10.0.0.2]) by fortuna.home.paeps.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE427D6 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:21:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by juno.home.paeps.cx (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1E1A651; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:21:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:21:35 +0100 From: Philip Paeps To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: This is slightly annoying Message-ID: <20030108012135.GF89230@juno.home.paeps.cx> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <006a01c2b689$f5a94080$0502000a@sentinel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <006a01c2b689$f5a94080$0502000a@sentinel> X-PGP-Fingerprint: FA74 3C27 91A6 79D5 F6D3 FC53 BF4B D0E6 049D B879 X-Message-Flag: Get yourself a real mail client. Try Mutt: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-01-07 21:18:35 (+0100), Stacy Olivas wrote: > I'm new to this list and have a question. Welcome :-) > What is up with the Brett Glass clones? Reading some of this stuff almost > makes you think someone has split personalities or is psycho and carrying on > a conversation with themselves. It appears as though one or more resident trolls find it amusing to discredit people by impersonating them. > This looks like someone is trying to impersonate someone else (which would > be amusing if it weren't so pathetic... then again, I could be wrong.. > maybe the other person really is (or think they are) Brett Glass)... Just another frustrated troll. I don't think it's worth going through the trouble of psycho-analysing trolls :-P > Will the "real" and "original" Brett Glass please stand up (original meaning > the one who's been here/with freebsd the longest). Perhaps PGP signing would reduce the confusion? Though that would be yielding to the troll. > Sorry, just my 2 cents. And here's my 2 cents, that makes 4 cents. Let's save up for the 'TrollBusters Benevolent Fund'! :-) - Philip -- Philip Paeps Please don't CC me, I am philip@paeps.cx subscribed to the list. 90% of everything is crud. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 7 17:43:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC8E37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D8043EE6 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [12.27.220.113] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id h081gu020352; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:42:57 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E19D528.3314008E@mindspring.com> References: <3E0DC536.8010001@slaudiovis.org> <3E0EBC49.86AD7E28@mindspring.com> <3E0FF119.7792A270@mindspring.com> <20030101124419.GA14165@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <20030105051402.GA2710@sleepy.wojomedia.com> <1041825639.793.65.camel@akira.wossname.net> <3E19D528.3314008E@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:25:34 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Cc: Brad Knowles , Benjamin Lewis , Tim , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:12 AM -0800 2003/01/06, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Are there any other good W2K backup tools that are available >> (freely or relatively inexpensive) and which are reasonably likely to >> have good forward compatibility? Legato Networker is not likely to >> be an option here. > > Try WinZip. I've tried that in the past, and didn't have much luck creating an archive that was readable. I don't recall what the problems were, but I do recall having problems. I should give this another shot. >> > For Mac OS X: someone posted patches this past week to get Amanda >> > working with gnutar on OS X. Various others had reported success in >> > the past but those are the first actual patches that I've seen. >> >> Cool. > > This still only backs up the data forks of files in HFS and HFS2. Bugger. But if we could get it working with "ditto" instead, then it should be fine. Of course, then no one else could read the files.... ;-( -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 7 17:43:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D5237B406 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CF043ED8 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:43:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [12.27.220.113] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id h081gn020215; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:42:50 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030106051858.U33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> References: <20030106051858.U33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:23:19 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Backup Solutions Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:22 AM -0800 2003/01/06, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Repeat after me: > > RAID is NOT a backup. Absolutely. If I gave the impression that I thought it was, I apologize. > You're smarter than this Brad, there are many reasons to do backups, and > disk failure is one of the least common reasons (ie, how many times have > you had to restore user files deleted accidentally vs. due to hardware > failure?) RAID is one key component of the system, but only one. In this case, I would be primarly using it to get logical filesystems that are sufficiently large for the volume of video editing work I'd be doing, not for the types of increased reliability it can offer. Clearly, once you've got all this stuff, then you need to back it up. And that's probably where the largest amount of money will be spent. ;-( I'm just trying to find somewhat less expensive ways to backup the data I've got, and the data I anticipate having. And I want to do it in a cross-platform environment, which gives me a reasonable chance of having the backups continue to be readable and useable, even after an OS upgrade or three on either the clients or the server(s). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 7 20:45: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EBB37B401 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:45:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4BCDA43E4A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:45:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from confirm-return-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com) X-eGroups-Return: confirm-return-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.187] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jan 2003 04:45:05 -0000 Date: 8 Jan 2003 04:45:04 -0000 Message-ID: <1042001104.84.56486.w63@yahoogroups.com> From: Yahoo!Groups Reply-To: confirm-s2-1JMEKMRa2E6TuYn1HA5zEytYn54-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@yahoogroups.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Please confirm your request to join ARG-Daily-Jokes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, We have received your request to join the ARG-Daily-Jokes group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service. This request will expire in 21 days. TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP: 1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=1JMEKMRa2E6TuYn1HA5zEytYn54&e=freebsd-chat%40freebsd%2Eorg (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your Web browser's address bar.) -OR- 2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send" in your email program If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the ARG-Daily-Jokes group, please accept our apologies and ignore this message. Regards, Yahoo! Groups Customer Care Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 8 15:20:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFC837B401 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C772C43EB2 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h08NKYiB023538 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:20:34 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel panic on 4.7-STABLE to 5.0 RC2 upgrade. Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:20:34 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <3.0.32.20030108092801.01faf100@mail.wavefire.com> <3E1C708A.39A5CFE0@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3E1C708A.39A5CFE0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301091020.34273.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 09 January 2003 05:40, Terry Lambert wrote: > Because RC2 was not tagged, because We Fear CVS Tags(tm), you > will need to use a date in order to create your own RC2. "We Fear CVS Tags(tm)"? Why would anyone fear that? regards, jacob Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 8 17:47:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DB737B401 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D4E43ED8 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 17:47:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0497.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.242] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18WRmy-00025r-00; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:47:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1CD433.5666E908@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:45:23 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JacobRhoden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel panic on 4.7-STABLE to 5.0 RC2 upgrade. References: <3.0.32.20030108092801.01faf100@mail.wavefire.com> <3E1C708A.39A5CFE0@mindspring.com> <200301091020.34273.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4cfc2e4079f0305bba32844464e36d1ac350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org JacobRhoden wrote: > On Thursday 09 January 2003 05:40, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Because RC2 was not tagged, because We Fear CVS Tags(tm), you > > will need to use a date in order to create your own RC2. > > "We Fear CVS Tags(tm)"? Why would anyone fear that? Tags end up touching every file, so CVSup's get relatively expensive following a tag. Basically, every file gets touched, and so people are loathe to tag. For something as important as a release candidate, my personal take would be "eat the overhead"; the system is (theoretically) in code freeze at that point, so the overhead would be less painful. This is not the general consensus of project management, though, so tags are reserved for releases. It's actually much less of a problem, now that release engineering is done in P4, following a date tag. If you are talking about snapshots, then I definitely agree: no tags; the overhead is just to high. A checkout by date, followed by a build, is enough that it can be recreated, no problem. Going back to the original problem, I don't know if there is an ISO disk #2 in the RC2 set; if there is, it should be relatively easy to download that, instead. That will get you the sources to the RC2 in /usr/src, and you could build your own release with a modified config file from that, which would get you the rest of the way. You could do the same thing, by extracting the source images off the disk #1, too, but it would be a little more work to do the cross-build (as noted by Chris Provenzo, you need a fairly recent 4.x in order to build 5.x, even though, in theory, that should not be necessary). The original poster is bouncing around 4.7-STABLE, so that should not be a problem, FWTW. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 8 21: 9:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5493837B401 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBE343F3F for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:09:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@employees.org) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org (12-240-204-110.client.attbi.com[12.240.204.110]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <200301090509410520025jm7e>; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 05:09:41 +0000 Received: from intruder.bmah.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0959fA8018744; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:09:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.bmah.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by intruder.bmah.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h0959eUp018743; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 21:09:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200301090509.h0959eUp018743@intruder.bmah.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5+ 20021120 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Kernel panic on 4.7-STABLE to 5.0 RC2 upgrade. In-Reply-To: <3E1CD433.5666E908@mindspring.com> References: <3.0.32.20030108092801.01faf100@mail.wavefire.com> <3E1C708A.39A5CFE0@mindspring.com> <200301091020.34273.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E1CD433.5666E908@mindspring.com> Comments: In-reply-to Terry Lambert message dated "Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:45:23 -0800." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Reply-To: bmah@FreeBSD.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_2128667620P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 21:09:40 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_2128667620P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Terry Lambert wrote: > It's actually much less of a problem, now that release engineering > is done in P4, following a date tag. Only the 5.0 developer previews used P4. We still do branches in CVS for releases. Bruce. --==_Exmh_2128667620P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE+HQQU2MoxcVugUsMRAm5bAJ0bX3QaMbZdqQRotsJG4xPmjbt9vACfSX76 Fdh2bxgW7kNkPUj/w5dTiBs= =Fh6H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_2128667620P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 8 22: 7:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDC837B401; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D11E43F1E; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from stork (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0963rf24148; Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0122.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.122] helo=mindspring.com) by stork with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18WVmt-0003pT-00; Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:03:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1D1013.632319C2@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:00:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmah@FreeBSD.org Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Kernel panic on 4.7-STABLE to 5.0 RC2 upgrade. References: <3.0.32.20030108092801.01faf100@mail.wavefire.com> <3E1C708A.39A5CFE0@mindspring.com> <200301091020.34273.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E1CD433.5666E908@mindspring.com> <200301090509.h0959eUp018743@intruder.bmah.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40c9e35471aa313b6281ca0a7dc4f83b193caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Bruce A. Mah" wrote: > If memory serves me right, Terry Lambert wrote: > > It's actually much less of a problem, now that release engineering > > is done in P4, following a date tag. > > Only the 5.0 developer previews used P4. We still do branches in CVS > for releases. I know. The problem is a 5.0-RC2 (not 5.0-RELEASE) CDROM that can't be easily recreated so that the kernel panic that occurs during the upgrade process itself can be diagnosed. No tag == very hard to recreate an identical image, with the only change being the options DDB and BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER in the config file... One thing that would help is if the people who built the 5.0-RC2 ISO image would build another one, with those options (and symbols intact) on the kernel on the ISO floppy image used in a CDROM based boot. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 0:24:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625C537B401 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207C343F1E for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:24:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@pantherdragon.org) Received: from sparx.techno.pagans (12-224-208-117.client.attbi.com [12.224.208.117]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3111005F for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pantherdragon.org (speck.techno.pagans [172.21.42.2]) by sparx.techno.pagans (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE101AA8F for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 00:24:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E1D31C6.4020406@pantherdragon.org> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 00:24:38 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: (good) CVSlog humour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From the sys/i386/conf/Attic/LINT log: Revision 1.749.2.124 " Help! Help, scottl is trying to *BANG* *BANG* *BANG*" " Hello? Hello? Are you still there?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 11: 2:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9D837B401; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (fump.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.181.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE6E43F5F; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:02:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h09J2Hdg001982; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:02:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h09J2HnY001981; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:02:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:02:17 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Tom Rhodes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/advocacy index.sgml Message-ID: <20030109190217.GS81204@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Tom Rhodes , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200212310229.gBV2Tie7071651@repoman.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200212310229.gBV2Tie7071651@repoman.freebsd.org> X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Tom Rhodes (trhodes@FreeBSD.org): > Remove freebsdzine.org, its a porn site now. it used to be one before :-) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 11: 7:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D3937B405 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pittgoth.com (14.zlnp1.xdsl.nauticom.net [209.195.149.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FDD43F1E for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from moble.pittgoth.com (acs-24-154-229-196.zoominternet.net [24.154.229.196]) by pittgoth.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h09J74Ap045149; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:07:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:07:13 -0500 From: Tom Rhodes To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/advocacy index.sgml Message-Id: <20030109140713.22ae75a1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20030109190217.GS81204@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <200212310229.gBV2Tie7071651@repoman.freebsd.org> <20030109190217.GS81204@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:02:17 +0100 Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Tom Rhodes (trhodes@FreeBSD.org): > > > Remove freebsdzine.org, its a porn site now. > > it used to be one before :-) > > Alex > Thats sad! -- Tom Rhodes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 11:19:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216D337B401; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (fump.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.181.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1712A43F18; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h09JJLdg002330; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:19:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h09JJLHq002329; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:19:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 20:19:21 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Tom Rhodes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/advocacy index.sgml Message-ID: <20030109191921.GU81204@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Tom Rhodes , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200212310229.gBV2Tie7071651@repoman.freebsd.org> <20030109190217.GS81204@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <20030109140713.22ae75a1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030109140713.22ae75a1.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Tom Rhodes (trhodes@FreeBSD.org): > > > Remove freebsdzine.org, its a porn site now. > > it used to be one before :-) > Thats sad! That was a joke, actually :) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 13: 3:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221E137B401 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6747F43F43 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: by testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C91B0CD24; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:03:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by testmail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0738CD23; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:03:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:03:15 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jamie Bowden , "" Subject: Re: Backup Solutions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030109144734.H89358@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> References: <20030106051858.U33984-100000@moo.sysabend.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > And I want to do it in a cross-platform environment, which > gives me a reasonable chance of having the backups continue to be > readable and useable, even after an OS upgrade or three on either > the clients or the server(s). I think I mentioned in the past that a commercial tool is probably what you're looking for, such as Legato Networker or Veritas NetBackup, but it might be interesting to note that Veritas claims that NetBackup stores its archives on tape in tar format. This could give you the "forward compatibility" that you're looking for. I haven't verified that this is actually the case, but you can try it for free if you give them a call and see for yourself. One of these days I may actually hook the tape drive up to one of my FreeBSD boxes and see if I can use tar to extract the stuff off of it. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, ARM, and S/390 under development - http://www.freebsd.org No trees were harmed in the composition of this message, although some electrons were mildly inconvenienced. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 15:59:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1204337B401 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nbc.attcanada.ca (mx.nbc.attcanada.ca [207.245.244.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0A043F1E for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ajones@slope.com) Received: from alanjoptbl ([216.129.80.2]) by mail.nbc.attcanada.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA05302 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:59:22 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "Alan Jones" To: Subject: subscribe Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 16:01:40 -0800 Organization: Slope Indicator / Durham Geo-Enterprises, Inc. Message-ID: <004601c2b83b$746f55f0$025081d8@alanjoptbl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Disposition-Notification-To: "Alan Jones" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alan Jones Slope Indicator ----------------------------------- Durham Geo - Slope Indicator Tel: 800-663-2374 Fax: 604-276-0190 ajones@slope.com www.slopeindicator.com ----------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 9 18:15:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8907C37B40D for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from debaser.madridwireless.net (26.Red-80-34-212.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.34.212.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDC043ED8 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from one-@madridwireless.net) Received: from irie.one-land.geored.org (82.Red-80-33-65.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.33.65.82]) by debaser.madridwireless.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931F8BBF1 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:15:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 03:15:43 +0100 From: Victor Sanchez To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030110031543.0f814f03.one-@madridwireless.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 10 15:57:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6E137B401 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tautology.org (evrtwa1-ar13-4-33-070-190.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net [4.33.70.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0895343E4A for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:57:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sarah@ironicallyyours.org) Received: from tautology.org (tautology.org [127.0.0.1]) by tautology.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0ANvDSK029886 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sarah@ironicallyyours.org) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:57:13 -0800 (PST) From: Sarah Woolley X-X-Sender: sarah@tautology.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD users in Seattle area (was Re: freebsdzine.org web site) Message-ID: <20030110155645.V21698-100000@tautology.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Although I am in Ellensburg, and not in Seattle, I would be interested in a bsd user's group. I could probably find one or two others to join me as well. I am usually in the Seattle area at least once or twice a month. Sarah To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 10 23:45:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE17237B401 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2C443EB2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com [12.234.22.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CB58B638 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:45:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 23:45:12 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books Message-ID: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know this can become a religious topic, but I'd like to pick up some books on PHP and SQL, so I thought I'd ask here for advice. I'm currently considering the following O'Reilly titles: Managing & Using MySQL, 2nd Edition Programming PHP My ultimate goal is to produce a web-based DNS Management tool with an SQL back end. I have a lot of perl CGI experience, but since we've standardized on php, I thought I should learn it. I see a lot of heat around the postgresql vs. mysql debate, but not a lot of light; so I'm thinking mysql is the way to go. If anyone has feedback on these two books, or think I should seriously consider other titles, feel free to respond to the list or to me personally. Thanks! Doug PS, bookpool.com is currently offering 43% off on O'Reilly titles. I've had good experiences with them as a customer in the past, no other connection. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 11 2:27:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A27837B405; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:27:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E2043F13; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:27:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0023.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.23] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18XIr8-0001Fa-00; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:27:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 02:25:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b40cee93596a72f6bfe5119569136be0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton wrote: > I know this can become a religious topic, but I'd like to pick up some > books on PHP and SQL, so I thought I'd ask here for advice. I'm currently > considering the following O'Reilly titles: > > Managing & Using MySQL, 2nd Edition > Programming PHP Almost every PHP book deals with MySQL. Find one with examples ou like, and it will cover most of what you care about. If you were asking about, say, building a WebMail client, I'd say there are no good PHP books for that, since there are none that deal adequately with the rendering of MIME-encapsulated data, in to any reasonable level. But database clients, particularly MySQL, are pretty much what you find in great abundance in every single PHP book. I liked: Core PHP Programming and: PHP Essentials well enough to buy both of them. > My ultimate goal is to produce a web-based DNS Management tool with an SQL > back end. You are probably not going to be happy with this, unless you take the data in the MySQL database, and post-process it, to get the DNS configuration files. Specifically, MySQL is a relational database, and DNS is actually a hierarchical database; the mapping works much better from LDAP to DNS (for example), than from MySQL to DNS. Basically, there's an "impedance mismatch". If you intend to derive the configuration files from MySQL data, though, it's rather trivial. Specifically, I've been involved with using Java, Perl, and other CGI code to both modify and generate "reports" that contain DNS configuration data for use by a DNS server, from MySQL stored data, and pretty much anything will work. The only real issue, I'd say, is that now that the MySQL license has changed, you need to worry about L/GPL applied to language bindings for the code, since both Perl and Java are interpreted, and if you mean to use L/GPL'ed language bindings, they are a lot less severable from interpreted languages than they are from other languages. If this is for internal use, you can ignore the GPL, since it only really applies if you distribute the code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 11 5:35:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9E537B401 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sa.no (pl158.nas925.o-tokyo.nttpc.ne.jp [210.165.105.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7927B43F3F for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 05:35:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from koukoku@hotpop.com) Received: from 5-C ([192.168.0.2]) by sa.no (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with SMTP id WAA31172; Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:41:57 +0900 Message-Id: <200301101341.WAA31172@sa.no> From: =?iso-2022-jp?B?a291a29rdQ==?= To: =?iso-2022-jp?B?MTE=?=@sa.no Reply-To: koukoku@hotpop.com Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:39:23 +0900 Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCTCQ+NUJ6OS05cCIoIXo6I0cvJE4xP0AqIXobKEo=?= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org <送信者> 電子メール広告社 今後、広告をご希望されない方はここへ me463440@members.interq.or.jp 必ず本文にあなたのメールアドレスのみをお書き下さい =============================================================== 当社の強大な広告力を活かしませんか！ 配信業務からホームページ製作まで格安にてお受け致します。 下記ＦＡＸにてお申し込み下さい。 =============================================================== 〒104-0061 東京都中央区銀座8-19-3 第2ウイングビル　3F メールマガジン発行 TEL　001-373-188-8477 FAX　03-3544-6218　　 =============================================================== 問題商品ばかり集めました。消される恐れがありますので お申込みはお早めに！ ================================================================= ☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆ 裏ビデオ販売・特殊ダッチワイフ・ＳＭクラブ 　　 ＡＶ男優募集・援助交際・ＳＥＸフレンド・アダルトグッズなど ★　アダルト関連の情報満載　★ ＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝ 　　お申込み・ご注文・商品詳細等は　 　　　　　下記ＵＲＬをクリックしてご覧下さい。 ＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝ ↓　　　　↓　　　　↓　 　　　http://218.5.79.238:4 ☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆ 　　開運グッズ・極秘情報誌・防犯グッズ・金儲け情報など　 　　　　　　　　　★　その他情報満載　★ ＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝ 　　お申込み・ご注文・商品詳細等は　 　　　　　下記ＵＲＬをクリックしてご覧下さい。 ＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝ ↓　　　　↓　　　　↓　 http://white.yaboo.dk/ ☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆―――☆ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 11 9:57:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EFF37B401; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C42043F3F; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@egypt7000.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3388A1C364E; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 4740D11E6C; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:57:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 09:57:50 -0800 (PST) From: Brett Glass To: current@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ia64 tinderbox failure Reply-To: brett@egypt7000.com X-Originating-Ip: [213.5.48.3] Message-Id: <20030111175750.4740D11E6C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * To: Cyberpunk * Subject: Re: its a joke * From: Bill Fumerola * Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:47:26 -0500 (EST) * cc: "operlist@the-project.org" * In-Reply-To: <348D00F3.2DEACDFD@bellsouth.net> * Sender: owner-operlist@ftp1.primenet.com On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Cyberpunk wrote: > > Silence == bot. I don't think so. There are (proven) ways of detecting a > > If that were the case then I guess the opers should be k-lined too after > all I've seen some with long idle times. Note the sarcastic "I don't think so." after my first sentence. Learn to read before you respond you clueless fuck. -------------------------------------------------. Bill Fumerola (NIC:BF1560) | Internet 123, Ltd. | email:billf@123.net or pager:pagebill@123.net | Computer Horizons Corp. Programmer (NASDAQ:CHRZ) | -------------------------------------------------/ ps. don't even start that 'uworld' thing you were saying two messages back because it only turns into a penis war. _____________________________________________________________ gifts, travel, e-cards, free e-mail, and more! .......... http://www.egypt7000.com .......... _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 11 14:55:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D79837B401 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com [12.234.22.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6243F3F for ; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (kzc5zfdjtyivixf2@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0BMtvjC022986; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h0BMtvsI022983; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:55:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 14:55:57 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books In-Reply-To: <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030111144619.X22424@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > I liked: > > Core PHP Programming > and: > PHP Essentials > > well enough to buy both of them. Thanks, I'll give those a look. I was focussing on O'Reilly stuff since that's what's on sale right now. > > My ultimate goal is to produce a web-based DNS Management tool with an SQL > > back end. > > You are probably not going to be happy with this, unless you take > the data in the MySQL database, and post-process it, to get the DNS > configuration files. > > Specifically, MySQL is a relational database, and DNS is actually > a hierarchical database; the mapping works much better from LDAP > to DNS (for example), than from MySQL to DNS. Well, "DNS Management Tool" is a little bit oversimplified. I'm actually not looking to drive the name server from the database, I'm actually looking to store information about hosts in a relational db, then spit out a number of different types of files (DNS zone files, dhcpd.conf files, etc.) based on what's stored there. Eventually, I also want to be able to run bind 9 plugged directly into the database (or a similar database) without zone files at all. > If this is for internal use, you can ignore the GPL, since it only > really applies if you distribute the code. Yeah, this is just for internal use. Does postgres have a friendlier license? That might actually be a point in its favor, since the initial version of this project won't have to be super high performance. I might want to make money off this some day. :) -- "We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, ... we will see freedom's victory." - George W. Bush, President of the United States State of the Union, January 28, 2002 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 11 16:19:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D3D37B401; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D96543EB2; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18XVqs-0004CM-00; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:19:46 -0800 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 16:19:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books In-Reply-To: <20030111144619.X22424@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > Yeah, this is just for internal use. Does postgres have a friendlier > license? That might actually be a point in its favor, since the initial > version of this project won't have to be super high performance. I might > want to make money off this some day. :) See http://advocacy.postgresql.org/advantages/ and read about licensing. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 11 18:25:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5322E37B401; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C052C43F18; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:25:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0337.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.82] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18XXom-0003rZ-00; Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:25:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3E20D1D6.E9FC60B1@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 18:24:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> <20030111144619.X22424@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c3da086f91b3e5b15844f00c5b840d6993caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton wrote: > Well, "DNS Management Tool" is a little bit oversimplified. I'm actually > not looking to drive the name server from the database, I'm actually > looking to store information about hosts in a relational db, then spit out > a number of different types of files (DNS zone files, dhcpd.conf files, > etc.) based on what's stored there. This is OK; it involves head-kicking. For 100,000 domains on a machine with moderately fast multiprogram I/O (e.g. SCSI instead of IDE), this will take under about 1 minute (speaking from personal experience). It's much better if you can handle database triggers, and do a DNSUPDAT, instead, so that there is no downtime involved for your primary DNS server (if you have a secondary, though, all that is added is latency). You can actually permit zone creation via DNSUPDAT (it's s six line change to the bind code), and get away with no zone issues on the primary. Zone creation is a problem, since a secondary does not create new zones automatically, based on their creation in the primary. The creation of secondary zones via DNSUPDAT is not possible, without creating an additional security association, and coming up with some mirroring relationship, and defining a configuration mechansim to deal with it. It's a lot of work. Most likely, you will need to also recreate the zones on the secondary, and kick it in the head, as well (even if you make the minor mod to the primary, and avoid the head-kicking there). The time on 100,000 zones there will be about 45 seconds (you only create SOA's, and then it zone transfer from the primary to update its per domain data data). This is actually exactly what we did for the IBM Web Connections NOC (we used Perl for the CGI to populate the MySQL database, and we used Java to generate the DNS and SMTP configuration files). The next generation would have been able to update in realtime, without needing to kick servers in the head, or to explicitly derive the data. > Eventually, I also want to be able to run bind 9 plugged directly > into the database (or a similar database) without zone files at all. It would be very east to do this with an LDAP directory, I think; much harder to do with a relation database, unless you establish record references internal to the database which were, themselves, hierarchical. IMO, you are much better off just sending notifications of changes to the DNS server (via DNSUPDAT), and modifying the DNS server to permit zone creation in the primary (minimally). > > If this is for internal use, you can ignore the GPL, since it only > > really applies if you distribute the code. > > Yeah, this is just for internal use. Does postgres have a friendlier > license? That might actually be a point in its favor, since the initial > version of this project won't have to be super high performance. I might > want to make money off this some day. :) If you aren't selling the systems, you don't give a damn about the license; they're infrastructure. You might have a license issue on sale of your comapny, if you flip it to another service provider. That's only if there's a license conflict that would make the code non-distributable (e.g. you were using a GPL'ed XFS in your FreeBSD boxes in your hosting farm, and the farm was sold as part of the sale, resulting in a transfer of ownership). This is usually not a problem, if you sell the company, rather than the companies assets, since you are not technically engaging in "distribution" at that point. If there is an issue that has to do with aggregation, you can just add a "reaggregation clause" to the terms sheet, which requires them to type "make ; make install" in a directory, immediately following the sale, with the agreement that you are not selling them the binaries. Basically, there are legal ways around the GPL, if you are not intent on selling the resulting combined software commercially; worst case, you can simply lease the software to the new system owners. For MySQL, if you aren't relying on replication, just use a copy that's old enough that it's under the previous license. But to get back on the technical track... I think in your case, I would consider Postgres anyway, because it permits triggers. A trigger is something you will need to have to do realtime updates of the DNS and SMTP data, when the data in the SQL database changes the configuration out from under it. Without triggers, you are going to have a difficult time automating this task (you may not be able to automate it at all). With triggers, it's a matter of getting the updates to the DNS and SMTP servers. Actually, LDAP is better for SMTP servers, as well, FWIW, since email addresses are hierarchical. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message