From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 11:39:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0204F37B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:39:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381AB43F13 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:39:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13097 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:39:45 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:39:33 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just read the 5.0-RELEASE announcement, and was astonished to see the following in the list of features: - The GCC 3.2.1 compiler provides the latest installment of the ever-improving GNU Compiler Collection. FreeBSD's dependency upon the FSF's code is a bug, not a feature, and should not be touted as the latter. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 12: 4:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D470037B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32DF143F43 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id BEE91AF5A6; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:04:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:04:18 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-Id: <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=.B9WhDLSXF,'vnN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:39:33 -0700 Brett Glass wrote: Hi, > Just read the 5.0-RELEASE announcement, and was astonished to see the > following in the list of features: I was far more astonished to find broken floopy images :-P > - The GCC 3.2.1 compiler provides the latest installment of the > ever-improving GNU Compiler Collection. That's true, gcc 3.x is far better (albeit slower) than the 2.95 series. > FreeBSD's dependency upon the FSF's code is a bug, not a feature, and > should not be touted as the latter. Look Brett, this argument is really getting old by now. Port TenDra or roll your own BSDL'd compiler. Until then, we'll have to live with gcc. I'm not a fun of GNU, the GPL and/or the FSF, but give credit where it's due, gcc is a great tool. Somehow you MUA dropped your patches ;-) Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --=.B9WhDLSXF,'vnN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+KwTGnLctrNyFFPERAnE9AJ965PTO8ymv+dGb4xgUT6SV5F9/0ACfbsBz sY2c15O64GP8Q3tuMR+uPcc= =6a2J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.B9WhDLSXF,'vnN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 12:11:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9497637B405 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B4243EB2 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:11:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13354; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:11:26 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:11:13 -0700 To: Miguel Mendez From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:04 PM 1/19/2003, Miguel Mendez wrote: >Look Brett, this argument is really getting old by now. Port TenDra or >roll your own BSDL'd compiler. It should not be a one-person effort. FreeBSD has abandoned the bedrock principles of BSD by becoming dependent upon code licensed under an unethical, destructive license which is inimical to the BSD philosophy and to BSD itself. >Somehow you MUA dropped your patches ;-) Before patching the code, it's necessary to patch the project. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 12:29:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1448737B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F13A43F18 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:29:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 46664AF5A6; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:28:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:28:31 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-Id: <20030119212831.4e4a9243.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=.4s1XDDvy770r5n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:11:13 -0700 Brett Glass wrote: Hi, > It should not be a one-person effort. FreeBSD has abandoned the > bedrock principles of BSD by becoming dependent upon code licensed > under an unethical, destructive license which is inimical to the BSD > philosophy and to BSD itself. Said Brett. That's just your opinion. One should try to stick to principles as much as possible, but, in this case, it would be counterproductive to do so. So what could be done? Have you talked with the TenDra guys? Have you looked at the current state of the Princeton compiler? How about a poll in the hackers@ mailing list asking for collaboration? Of course it would be insane to try to do it as one-person project. I think Terry already said it, get some people and others will follow. But this holy war against the GPL leads nowhere. Cheers. -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --=.4s1XDDvy770r5n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+KwpznLctrNyFFPERAlihAKDLeMJ8W3L2hbPtlQ2LeDldMDUtpACgrX80 zw7SyCkls+9G/xxJO6mdXMI= =E/SM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.4s1XDDvy770r5n-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 12:43: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6839237B405 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593C243F1E for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 12:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13707; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:42:40 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:42:26 -0700 To: Miguel Mendez From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030119212831.4e4a9243.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:28 PM 1/19/2003, Miguel Mendez wrote: >Said Brett. That's just your opinion. One should try to stick to >principles as much as possible, but, in this case, it would be >counterproductive to do so. So what could be done? Again, the most important patches to apply are to the project. FreeBSD should make it a fundamental goal and a high priority to remove all GPLed code from the base system as installed. Work on a replacement compiler should not be a peripheral effort but a fundamental part of the project. Your assertion that this would be a "holy war" is off base. It is the GPL that's part and parcel of a "holy war." FreeBSD should not be involved in such a war, and certainly should not aid Stallman in his efforts to wage such a war (which it is doing by promoting further use of his toolchain rather than creating a truly free alternative). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 19: 4:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F73737B405 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F43443F3F for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org ([151.201.19.185]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.20 201-253-122-126-120-20021101) with ESMTP id <20030120030421.KQYF23484.out001.verizon.net@kanga.org> for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:04:21 -0600 Message-ID: <3E2B6753.7020007@kanga.org> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:04:51 -0500 From: David Cuthbert Organization: Kanga International User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-au, en-nz, en-us, en- MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at out001.verizon.net from [151.201.19.185] at Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:04:19 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Again, the most important patches to apply are to the project. > FreeBSD should make it a fundamental goal and a high priority > to remove all GPLed code from the base system as installed. Hm. This is a bit dangerous, in the "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" sense. While I'm all for having a BSD'ed compiler (one which I can ship without worries as to legal/licensing implications), FreeBSD should not compromise quality for the sake of purity. Heck, I'd have no problem with being required to use some weird, bootstrapped version of ICC or MSVC (!) to compile BSD if the difference in quality was that significant of an issue. This kind of thing should probably be an orthogonal project, with "ability to compile FreeBSD" a fundamental milestone of the compiler and "ability to use BSDcc" at most a roadmap-ish goal. That said, if such a project were started, I would be keen to lend a hand. I'm still reviewing the TenDra and Princeton work, though. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 19:44:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA0C37B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-179.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9CA43E4A for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A325566B60; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8736F1622; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:44:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:44:23 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Miguel Mendez Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030120034423.GA91039@rot13.obsecurity.org> Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 09:04:18PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: > Look Brett, this argument is really getting old by now. Port TenDra or > roll your own BSDL'd compiler. Until then, we'll have to live with gcc. > I'm not a fun of GNU, the GPL and/or the FSF, but give credit where it's > due, gcc is a great tool. > > Somehow you MUA dropped your patches ;-) Brett's main talents lie in complaining that others aren't writing code for FreeBSD. He's really very good at it, but he doesn't appear to be interested in doing anything to solve the problems he discusses repetitively. In the meantime, the rest of us just get on with improving FreeBSD. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 20:40:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7F137B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A917143EB2 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16717; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:40:37 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119213858.02af6b60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:40:33 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Miguel Mendez From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030120034423.GA91039@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:44 PM 1/19/2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Brett's main talents lie in complaining that others aren't writing >code for FreeBSD. Not at all. In fact, this issue does not have to do with writing code. It has to do with establishing sound fundamental principles for the project. This comes first; code comes after. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 21:20:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAFC37B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7597743F3F for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:20:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0K5Kb3J022899 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:20:38 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:20:37 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 20 January 2003 14:04, David Cuthbert wrote: > That said, if such a project were started, I would be keen to lend a > hand. I'm still reviewing the TenDra and Princeton work, though. Just a thought, but considering that TenDRA compiles to an intermediatory= =20 'platform independant' stage (ie like java) would it be wise to write an=20 operating system in this language? for a start, i could imagine that it w= ould=20 always take longer to compile. and I guess (has someone already said this= )=20 that you could not use in-line asm in such a language (or am i wrong?). - jacob =20 Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 21:32: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 057F137B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop017.verizon.net (pop017pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E6C43F1E for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org ([151.201.19.185]) by pop017.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP id <20030120053155.QASD10203.pop017.verizon.net@kanga.org> for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:31:55 -0600 Message-ID: <3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:32:28 -0500 From: David Cuthbert Organization: Kanga International User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-au, en-nz, en-us, en- MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at pop017.verizon.net from [151.201.19.185] at Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:31:54 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org JacobRhoden wrote: > Just a thought, but considering that TenDRA compiles to an intermediatory > 'platform independant' stage (ie like java) would it be wise to write an > operating system in this language? for a start, i could imagine that it would > always take longer to compile. and I guess (has someone already said this) > that you could not use in-line asm in such a language (or am i wrong?). Well, I wouldn't want to run an OS using the intermediate language (IL), but there's no reason a translator from IL->cpu instructions can't be written. Personally, I consider that an easier problem (read: I've done it before myself, and actually had fun writing the translator) than writing a C (or, worse, C++) front-end. Inline assembly syntax -- that is, C code containing bits of assembly instructions -- isn't portable, anyway. The GNU solution is certainly unique, though not very usable to those of us who teethed on Borland compilers. I prefer separating the C and assembly completely, and bringing them together at link time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 21:33:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A8537B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3D043F1E for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dacut@kanga.org) Received: from kanga.org ([151.201.19.185]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.20 201-253-122-126-120-20021101) with ESMTP id <20030120053346.GZMW7656.out002.verizon.net@kanga.org> for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:33:46 -0600 Message-ID: <3E2B8A5B.9070102@kanga.org> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:34:19 -0500 From: David Cuthbert Organization: Kanga International User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-au, en-nz, en-us, en- MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> In-Reply-To: <3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at out002.verizon.net from [151.201.19.185] at Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:33:45 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Cuthbert wrote: [...] there's no reason a translator from IL->cpu instructions can't be > written. To clarify: by this, I mean a stage 2 compilation, not a JIT translator. This is similar to what GCC already does. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 22:14:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71A537B405 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B30D43F3F for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:14:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.4/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0K6EPiX013777; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:44:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: cain.gsoft.com.au: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be [127.0.0.1] Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Miguel Mendez In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119213858.02af6b60@localhost> References: <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119213858.02af6b60@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1043043263.401.79.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 20 Jan 2003 16:44:24 +1030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.9 () CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,PLING_QUERY,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2003-01-20 at 15:10, Brett Glass wrote: > >Brett's main talents lie in complaining that others aren't writing > >code for FreeBSD. > > Not at all. In fact, this issue does not have to do with writing > code. It has to do with establishing sound fundamental principles > for the project. This comes first; code comes after. Maybe it does for BrettBSD, but this isn't that. IMHO one of the fundamental maxims of this project has been put up or shut up. Complaining that other people aren't as ideologically pure as you isn't very productive. Port a BSDL compiler instead. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 19 22:53:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE7837B401 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E2A43F18 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:53:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0314.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.59] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18aVoW-0004Vw-00; Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:53:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2B9C4C.8626D11C@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:50:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JacobRhoden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c6afcb7a505719c5d7421fe5a05c22b43ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org JacobRhoden wrote: > Just a thought, but considering that TenDRA compiles to an intermediatory > 'platform independant' stage (ie like java) would it be wise to write an > operating system in this language? for a start, i could imagine that it would > always take longer to compile. and I guess (has someone already said this) > that you could not use in-line asm in such a language (or am i wrong?). TenDRA is a "quad" compiler; it compiles to a quad tree, and then you post-process that into a particular assembly language using a back-end. It's fairly easy to implement inline assembly in this context: just create a non-associative, non-commutative quad that causes the back-end translator to emit the strings unmodified for input to the assembler. As far as time to compile, it's no worse an increase in overhead than FreeBSD ate moving to the new GCC and binutils in 5.x, I think. In any case, if you get people working on the code, you will get things that bother the people working on it fixed in fairly short order, I believe. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 10:41:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3DF37B401; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA4743F18; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h0KIfAOs019501; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:41:10 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h0KIevuN019497; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:41:02 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:40:57 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , Subject: Re: Bystander shot by a spam filter In-Reply-To: <20030105192556.GA526@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: <20030120203345.W43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [I understand its a bit late to answer - sorry about that] On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Perhaps Intel produces better "straight" code than gcc -- not > surprising if it's their chip -- but gcc actually does better > optimization, and therefore catches up on more complex code? > icc does optimisations like automaticly vectorising code to make use of teh SSE2 regsiters for floating point. Its well possible that it over-optimisticly converts code for which this is in fact a pessimisation to use SSE2. IIRC the benchmark used the same compiler flags for all programs, and you can always run into pessimistaions with that with sufficently aggressive options. This is not an icc specific pitfall either. > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 11: 8:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D55637B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF7C43F18 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:08:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003012019083300200ml7ane>; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:08:33 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0KJ73m9099953 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:07:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0KJ6waf099950; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:06:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030120034423.GA91039@rot13.obsecurity.org> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Jan 2003 11:06:58 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030120034423.GA91039@rot13.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: > Brett's main talents lie in complaining that others aren't writing > code for FreeBSD. Brett has used his real main talents in the development of BSD code more than enough to deserve our tolerance in his choice of -chat topics. It's not nice to bite the hand that fed you. Those who have tired of him can easily ignore him. I happen to think it's good that he occasionally tries to encourage others to keep FreeBSD from becoming just another kernel for a GNU system, soon to be playing catch-up instead of filling a different, more commercially friendly niche. He might even influence a few people, especially those new to BSD-land and enamored of the non-copyleft concept. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 11:16: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E3D37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0D643ED8 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h0KJFuu02499; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:15:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:15:56 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Kris Kennaway writes: > > Brett's main talents lie in complaining that others aren't writing > > code for FreeBSD. > > Brett has used his real main talents in the development of BSD code more > than enough to deserve our tolerance in his choice of -chat topics. Eh? What BSD code, exactly, has he developed/contributed? > It's not nice to bite the hand that fed you. Are you suggesting that Kris or other FreeBSD developers were fed by Brett's hand? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 12:25:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4EE37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9938D43E4A for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <20030120202529052008vi9je>; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:25:30 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0KKO0m9012272; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:24:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0KKNscg012269; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Jan 2003 12:23:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > Brett has used his real main talents in the development of BSD code more > > than enough to deserve our tolerance in his choice of -chat topics. > > Eh? What BSD code, exactly, has he developed/contributed? I thought that he developed a whole lot of the Virtual Memory code. A /usr/src/ *.c search finds nothing. A little time at groups.google.com found thousands of Brett Glass hits but it left me suspecting that I was wrong. I expect that someone who knows better will speak up. > > It's not nice to bite the hand that fed you. > > Are you suggesting that Kris or other FreeBSD developers were fed by > Brett's hand? Yes, metaphorically; Kris and any FreeBSD user. Again, I welcome a believable correction. I really thought that Brett was a sort of "BSD Developer, Emeritus". Try this one: It's not nice to flame chat-ers because they are not willing to back up their opinions with contributed code. That sort of thing is better suited for -hackers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 12:52:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD2F37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9D443ED8 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([68.11.249.216]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030120205249.EHFX22825.lakemtao04.cox.net@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:52:49 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030120144906.01e17f08@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:52:32 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) In-Reply-To: <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:23 PM 1/20/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Eh? What BSD code, exactly, has he developed/contributed? > >I thought that he developed a whole lot of the Virtual Memory code. A >/usr/src/ *.c search finds nothing. A little time at groups.google.com >found thousands of Brett Glass hits but it left me suspecting that I was >wrong. I expect that someone who knows better will speak up. Actually, I thought that Brett's major contribution was doing lots of writing and evangelizing about FreeBSD and the advantages of the BSD License. Seems like most of the FreeBSD articles (and some others) I come across are by Brett Glass. No, it's not code, but it's important work nonetheless. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 13: 0:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A42437B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470DC43F75 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:00:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h0KL00K02771; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:00:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:00:00 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > I thought that he developed a whole lot of the Virtual Memory code. Strange. Are you thinking of Matt Dillon? Though I see no resemblance: he doesn't troll lists about the GPL and has in fact made contributions to linux in the past. > A little time at groups.google.com found thousands of Brett Glass > hits but it left me suspecting that I was wrong. At one time I thought Brett was at least honest in his GPL-hatred: a net search showed how wrong I was. See http://www.flora.org/lynx-dev/html/month101999/msg00072.html and the related thread. Briefly -- he wanted to use the code of lynx in a commercial project, which he tried to portray as a charitable project to help blind users. His idea of "charity" was that it was out of the question to do it unless they could be financially remunerated or at least recover their costs. People pointed out that contributing his changes to the lynx project could potentially benefit many more blind people, and also directed him to other differently-licensed text-based browsers like w3m; he didn't acknowledge these suggestions. Unlike the freebsd-chat crowd, the lynx people clearly weren't familiar with him to start with; nevertheless they saw through his game quite quickly. In a nutshell, this is a guy who will not contribute code, even to such a "charitable" project as a web browser for the blind, unless he's paid for it. (When I asked, he confirmed this in a private email to me a year or two ago, which left me revolted.) The very last thing he would ever do is contribute code for free to FreeBSD, even if he were capable of doing so. Brett's view of FreeBSD is a project to which he can dictate, from his armchair, what policies they should follow. It means no more to him than that. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 13:12:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6830D37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB93F43ED8 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:12:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h0KLCRIF005575 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:12:27 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: RE: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:11:52 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c2c0c8$8f086740$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > > Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > > > Brett has used his real main talents in the development > of BSD code more > > > than enough to deserve our tolerance in his choice of > -chat topics. > > > > Eh? What BSD code, exactly, has he developed/contributed? > > I thought that he developed a whole lot of the Virtual Memory code. A > /usr/src/ *.c search finds nothing. A little time at > groups.google.com > found thousands of Brett Glass hits but it left me suspecting > that I was > wrong. I expect that someone who knows better will speak up. > > > > It's not nice to bite the hand that fed you. > > > > Are you suggesting that Kris or other FreeBSD developers were fed by > > Brett's hand? > > > Yes, metaphorically; Kris and any FreeBSD user. Again, I welcome a > believable correction. I really thought that Brett was a sort of > "BSD Developer, Emeritus". > http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,349576,00.html Take a look at this article.. and these links as well: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,555451,00.asp http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/os2001/speakers.html has this: Brett Glass Brett Glass has more than 25 years of experience designing, building, writing about, and crash testing computer hardware and software. A consultant, author, and programmer based in Laramie, Wyoming, Brett obtained his Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering from the Case Institute of Technology and his MSEE from Stanford. He writes and architects software, designs hardware (including chips, embedded systems, and network servers), and has more than 1500 published articles to his credit. He currently writes "Mean Streets," a monthly security column, for BoardWatch magazine. When he's not writing, consulting, speaking, or cruising the Web in search of adventure, he may be playing the Ashbory bass, doing carpentry, teaching Internet courses for LARIAT (Laramie's community network and Internet users' group), cooking up a storm, or enjoying spicy ethnic food. He can be reached at www.brettglass.com/mailbrett.html (no spam please). There are references to him in the "FreeBSD in the Press" as far back as 1999. So the question is: Who is Brett Glass? Well, we know for certain that he definately is one of the most vocal advocates that FreeBSD has .. which is good.. You can find a ton of hits on google with his name attached that have something to do with FreeBSD .. So, that said... what is wrong with someone being passionate about not seeing their favorite OS get sucked into the GPL codebase? Sure, he may piss some people off with his views on the GPL/FSF/RMS, but nobody says you have to agree with him. > Try this one: It's not nice to flame chat-ers because they are not > willing to back up their opinions with contributed code. That sort > of thing is better suited for -hackers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 13:33:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A263B37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-179.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E3F43EB2 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C903766B60; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A95D01636; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:33:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:33:43 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030120213343.GB3659@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> <20030119210418.03a9e3ab.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> <20030120034423.GA91039@rot13.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 20, 2003 at 11:06:58AM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Kris Kennaway writes: >=20 > > Brett's main talents lie in complaining that others aren't writing > > code for FreeBSD. >=20 > Brett has used his real main talents in the development of BSD code more > than enough to deserve our tolerance in his choice of -chat topics. >=20 > It's not nice to bite the hand that fed you. As far as I know Brett has never written anything non-trivial that appears in BSD (although to be fair he's probably submitted a trivial patch somewhere). See above. The only people Brett can claim to be feeding are the users who have read and benefited from his articles. In other words, it's *Brett* who's biting the hand that feeds him, by continually whining to the developers that they're doing the wrong thing by not doing what he says. Kris --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+LGs3Wry0BWjoQKURAuywAJ4yi4lVs7cEReX5r9xqXn+/NPJnvgCglGsL Cboug9ilnhWEsThSSAZar9E= =AwGw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 14:31: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C4837B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE36C43F18 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 18akRY-0000rD-00; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:31:00 +0100 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0KM7XSA035859 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:07:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h0KM7XZ6035858 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:07:33 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:07:33 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Yes, metaphorically; Kris and any FreeBSD user. Again, I welcome a > believable correction. I really thought that Brett was a sort of > "BSD Developer, Emeritus". The FreeBSD documentation collection includes a list of contributors (core team, developers, core team alumni, development team alumni, derived software contributors, additional FreeBSD contributors). It does not list Brett Glass. At all. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 16: 3:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230F437B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from astaroth.acidpit.org (astaroth.acidpit.org [206.190.180.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD18543EB2 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by astaroth.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1200) id BCD9215A43; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:03:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:03:29 -0500 From: Robert Hough To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030121000329.GA54512@acidpit.org> References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wish had as many posts about who I am, as Brett gets - wow! I'm not a BG advocate, don't know the man. I will ask a simple question that has apparently escaped me while reading all of this interesting, babble... What does it matter, what he has contributed to FreeBSD? Does an end user have to contribute something before making suggestions? Yeah, his suggestions do sound more like demands, and his passionate hatred for the GPL does tend to cloud the underlying point to his posts, but that still doesn't negate the fact that he is _right_. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) http://www.acidpit.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 16:14: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AFA37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD4543ED8 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:14:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h0L0DvIF006412 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:13:57 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: RE: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:13:24 +0100 Message-ID: <001d01c2c0e1$e9c80690$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20030121000329.GA54512@acidpit.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I wish had as many posts about who I am, as Brett gets - wow! > I'm not a > BG advocate, don't know the man. I will ask a simple question that has > apparently escaped me while reading all of this interesting, babble... I'm no advocate for him either (I too do not know him at all)... But you are right, it is funny how one person is able to get a lot of stuff posted about them.. > > What does it matter, what he has contributed to FreeBSD? Does an end > user have to contribute something before making suggestions? Yeah, his > suggestions do sound more like demands, and his passionate hatred for > the GPL does tend to cloud the underlying point to his posts, but that > still doesn't negate the fact that he is _right_. From my understanding that is why the mailing lists are "wide open", so that the average joe can try to give something back with out having to pound out some code. (That's also why you see tons of spam on these lists). Can we now end this topic before it turns into another 400+ message long discussion on GNU/GPL?? Pllllleeeeeaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!!!! :) > -- > Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) > http://www.acidpit.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 17: 3:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02BD237B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-179.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6702A43E4A for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:03:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98AC66B60; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CB0C41637; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:03:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:03:16 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Robert Hough Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030121010316.GB6846@rot13.obsecurity.org> Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> <20030121000329.GA54512@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nVMJ2NtxeReIH9PS" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030121000329.GA54512@acidpit.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --nVMJ2NtxeReIH9PS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jan 20, 2003 at 07:03:29PM -0500, Robert Hough wrote: > What does it matter, what he has contributed to FreeBSD? Does an end > user have to contribute something before making suggestions? Yeah, his > suggestions do sound more like demands, and his passionate hatred for > the GPL does tend to cloud the underlying point to his posts, but that > still doesn't negate the fact that he is _right_. Brett can demand all he likes, but that's not going to make developers drop what they're doing to follow his directions. In the FreeBSD community you earn respect (the ability to tell other people what to do and have a good chance they'll listen) by yourself doing lots of quality work. You don't get it by just being loud and repetitive and asserting your right to be respected as a leader; and in fact that makes people even less likely to listen to that person at all. Until Brett starts leading by example instead of standing on the sidelines shouting "You there! You're doing it all wrong!" he's going to continue to be treated as a pariah by the developer community. If Brett wants to change this, he needs only to try. There are dozens of ways in which he can contribute to BSD in the ways he has long advocated of others. Kris --nVMJ2NtxeReIH9PS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+LJxUWry0BWjoQKURAgKwAKDFrarwu/YtFAcyCD6mJRRDfEdSUgCfaqD5 TYzrwxNEmNw0fD5vsjGwUTw= =YvzZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nVMJ2NtxeReIH9PS-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 18:14:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00DA37B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7B243F1E for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with ESMTP id <2003012102141905100pn3que>; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:14:19 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0L2Clm9016597; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:12:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0L2CgNZ016594; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Jan 2003 18:12:41 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 66 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Strange. Are you thinking of Matt Dillon? Though I see no > resemblance: he doesn't troll lists about the GPL and has in fact made > contributions to linux in the past. Nope, not Matt; I knew he's done a lot of work on it lately. It was a fairly strong memory, but it appears I dreamed it up; I find nothing by googling -chat and -questions for the last couple years I've been a FreeBSD user. Sorry. > At one time I thought Brett was at least honest in his GPL-hatred: a > net search showed how wrong I was. See > http://www.flora.org/lynx-dev/html/month101999/msg00072.html > and the related thread. > > Briefly -- he wanted to use the code of lynx in a commercial project, > which he tried to portray as a charitable project to help blind users. > His idea of "charity" was that it was out of the question to do it > unless they could be financially remunerated or at least recover their > costs. I just read/skimmed it. He seemed quite honest about his intentions. He couldn't do it for free but planned to do it for very cheap. A valid and common way for skilled people and companies to do charity. > People pointed out that contributing his changes to the lynx > project could potentially benefit many more blind people, and also > directed him to other differently-licensed text-based browsers like > w3m; he didn't acknowledge these suggestions. It should be his business to decide what he gives away. Part of the value of his work or free source code licenses. I suspect he would have put his work under a BSD-like license if the lynx people would have; it should suprise nobody that he wouldn't release his source under the GPL. Even if wouldn't ever release source code is not a good reason for GPL users to withhold their code from him; at least not when they promote it as "free" and "non-proprietary" software. But that's just my opinion; they're free to punish people outside their "Guild for a New Unix" if they want to play that game. > Unlike the freebsd-chat > crowd, the lynx people clearly weren't familiar with him to start > with; nevertheless they saw through his game quite quickly. As I said, there was nothing to see through. He was giving his sermon loud and clear. > In a nutshell, this is a guy who will not contribute code, even to > such a "charitable" project as a web browser for the blind, unless > he's paid for it. (When I asked, he confirmed this in a private email > to me a year or two ago, which left me revolted.) The very last thing > he would ever do is contribute code for free to FreeBSD, even if he > were capable of doing so. What you failed to mention is that he was willing to pay for a license with money, which was not enough for the lynx copyleftists; their price was his cross-licensing his work to them (and the world) under the GPL -- a price he was unwilling to pay. > Brett's view of FreeBSD is a project to which he can dictate, from his > armchair, what policies they should follow. It means no more to him > than that. Well, I'm sure that's a gross exaggeration, but I get the point: if you're only a user, be careful what you -chat about. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 19:37:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B7E37B405 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177EB43E4A for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0286.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.31] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18apE6-0007aY-00; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:37:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:35:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4aeb9a27f8a0ed40b06ff4e9488b82004a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Strange. Are you thinking of Matt Dillon? Though I see no > > resemblance: he doesn't troll lists about the GPL and has in fact made > > contributions to linux in the past. > > Nope, not Matt; I knew he's done a lot of work on it lately. It was a > fairly strong memory, but it appears I dreamed it up; I find nothing > by googling -chat and -questions for the last couple years I've been > a FreeBSD user. Sorry. I've found that Google loses a lot of its relevent indexing, and has recently cut back on a lot of things that it used to index, but (apparently, from the search results) no longer does. It's quality has decliend significantly, since they started charging for placement (IMO). I believe the person you are thinking of is actually John Dyson; John Dyson is vehemently anti-GPL, and he was FreeBSD's VM guru for a very long time. It took Matt more than a little a while to grow into that role. John did the initial unified VM and buffer cache architecture, and contributed in other areas of FreeBSD. He left the project for personal and medical reasons, both. In any case, I believe Brett Glass has contributed considerably to the FreeBSD project. His letters to editors, as well as his written columns, have contributed significantly, IMO, to the visibility of FreeBSD, and, I would argue, are one of the reasons that FreeBSD is not in the same position as NetBSD, marketwise. A marketing perspective is needed; good code, good product, "a better mouse trap", etc., are all nice, but they have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you get market share. That said, a lot of what he wants is unreasonable, in the context of the project, as it sits. For him to effect his idea of the right approach, he would have to effect the systems that have grown up around the FreeBSD project itself, so as to result in different emergent properties. This is unlikely in the extreme: the systems are hair-trigger and defensive. That's why I recommended to him that he start a separate project to get TenDRA (or Princeton, or whatever) "ready for prime time", rather than trying to make it part of the maintenance responsibility of the FreeBSD project, itself. You goal begets your communications begets your systems begets your legal begets your product. The systems of the FreeBSD project are effective, and they are effective in some ways because they ignore Brett's advice. It's often hard from someone to move from communications, down the line towards the production of the product. FreeBSD is all about the emergent properties of the established systems, and not about doing any self-examination which might end up in changed to those systems. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 20 21:20:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4A737B401 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1E643E4A for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:20:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h0L5KCwU001966 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H91THN00.RDQ for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:20:11 -0800 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:16:32 -0800 Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: John Martinez To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <001d01c2c0e1$e9c80690$0502000a@sentinel> Message-Id: <81041780-2CFF-11D7-B377-0003937C0B34@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 04:13 PM, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > Can we now end this topic before it turns into another 400+ message > long > discussion > on GNU/GPL?? Pllllleeeeeaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!!!! :) > I don't contribute code, but I use FreeBSD and I rather like the discussion. I may not know all of the ins-and-outs of the BSD license and the GPL, but I think it's a discussion worth reading about. -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 1: 1:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A1C37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C23D43F18 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:01:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E7BD6239A05; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:01:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:01:33 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Message-ID: <20030121090133.GC29071@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003-01-20 19:35 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: >=20 > I've found that Google loses a lot of its relevent indexing, and > has recently cut back on a lot of things that it used to index, > but (apparently, from the search results) no longer does. It's > quality has decliend significantly, since they started charging > for placement (IMO).=20 Google does not under any circumstances charge for placement in their search results. The paid ads they do have are clearly displayed as such. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm mailto:gsutter@zer0.org for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ be warm for the rest of his life.=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQE+LQxtIBUx1YRd/t0RAhIUAJ9NCHyAV+1uo/jKeFccYVbC2Sm9WgCcCIBD wy+ZzCXpJzRZvN6Uun3aB40= =W9mv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 1:18:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D7537B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E207843ED8 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:18:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0033.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.33] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18auYK-00020n-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:18:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2D101A.F5E0061F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:17:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> <20030121090133.GC29071@klapaucius.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a49d4db174e645dbe554a1743321528222350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2003-01-20 19:35 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I've found that Google loses a lot of its relevent indexing, and > > has recently cut back on a lot of things that it used to index, > > but (apparently, from the search results) no longer does. It's > > quality has decliend significantly, since they started charging > > for placement (IMO). > > Google does not under any circumstances charge for placement in their > search results. The paid ads they do have are clearly displayed as > such. I meant ad placement, relevent to the search results, not for results placement. For the record, I'm well aware of the fact that google does not skew search results for money, like some search engines, and that was not what I meant to imply. Sorry if it came off like that. What I meant was, I tend to get less search results for a given set of search terms than I used to get, prior to the advertising on the right hand side of the results. I attributed that to the relevency-based search for the paid advertising detracting from the amount of CPU available that would otherwise be burned giving me the same number of results I was getting previously; maybe this is wrong, but regardless of rank order, you would not think you could lose 4000 results for a particular search phrase in only 3 months. Either they are indexing less content, or they have changed their inclusion (*not* rank order!) criteria significantly some time in the last several months. Some people search for themselves; I happen to have three terms sets that I tend to use to benchmark search engines, and just noticed the drop-off recently. For all I know, it just means they are now obeying the ".robots" file, and they weren't before... 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 2: 4:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E7537B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41315.mail.yahoo.com (web41315.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 16F1F43F43 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030121100434.23735.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41315.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:04:34 PST Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:04:34 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I emailed this first to freebsd-www and Bruce A. Mah suggested: >Hi Hunter-- >I hadn't heard of your project before but the Web pages look >interesting! ...post a >quick note to one or two of the FreeBSD mailing lists with the info >you've given here So thats what I am doing. Checkit: ------------------- Hi, im on the BitTorrent team. (http://bitconjurer.org/bittorrent) In one line: its a protocol and an implemenation for p2p sharing of specific files; its not a search network. Everything is free AND open. We mirrored 5.0 AS SOON as it came out, but we didnt get any publicity. ( http://tacos.sus.mcgill.ca/~hperes/BT_BSD5.0/ ). We posted a comment on /. but it received little moderation. Unfortunately, BitTorrent is mainly being used by irc movie phreaks for illegitimate causes. 12,000 torrents of a 3gb LOTR2 were served in one day for example. BitTorrent is well tested for over a year, secure, and platform independant. Please email me, or join us on irc.freenode.net #bittorent. We would like you to put links of torrents on the freebsd webpage, not with the intent of replacing anything, but simply in addition to. There is so much value in doing this, you WILL see. -Thanks, Hunter. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 5: 9: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB5037B405 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:09:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFC643ED8 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id EF54E536F; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:09:03 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: John Martinez Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <81041780-2CFF-11D7-B377-0003937C0B34@mac.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:09:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <81041780-2CFF-11D7-B377-0003937C0B34@mac.com> (John Martinez's message of "Mon, 20 Jan 2003 21:16:32 -0800") Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Martinez writes: > I may not know all of the ins-and-outs of the BSD license and the GPL, > but I think it's a discussion worth reading about. It gets a bit tiresome after a dozen repetitions or so. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 5:13:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D0537B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D74E43ED8 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 05:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id C4973536E; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:13:13 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: David Cuthbert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:13:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> (David Cuthbert's message of "Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:32:28 -0500") Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090007 (Oort Gnus v0.07) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Cuthbert writes: > Inline assembly syntax -- that is, C code containing bits of assembly > instructions -- isn't portable, anyway. The GNU solution is certainly > unique, though not very usable to those of us who teethed on Borland > compilers. I prefer separating the C and assembly completely, and > bringing them together at link time. GCC's way of handling inline assembler code is in no way unique, as anyone who had the pleasure of using Watcom C/C++ will testify. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 8: 1:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2790D37B405 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41310.mail.yahoo.com (web41310.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 39CE043FB5 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030121160105.30911.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41310.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:01:05 PST Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We're in debian (and hence knoppix), and gentoo. Both of these packages have come from users of BitTorrent. Other packages like a ports style one will currently also have to come from users. BT isnt a company, nor will it ever be FYI. The BT teams works only on development of the protocol and its python implementation (and some platform specific guis). The tar.gz is a very clean self contained directory, so having a actual package is *almost* overkill since there is no building involved (since its in python). Anyway, give the link below a try and see how you like it, keep in mind that since barely anyone participated in this torrent (b/c our publicity efforts on here and on slashdot didnt have much effect) that the performance won't be amazing. The more people torrenting on a given file, the better it performs for all people. --- Eric Anderson wrote: > Hunter Peress wrote: > > ------------------- > > Hi, im on the BitTorrent team. > > (http://bitconjurer.org/bittorrent) > > In one line: its a protocol and an implemenation for > > p2p sharing of > > specific files; its not a search network. > > > > Everything is free AND open. > > > > We mirrored 5.0 AS SOON as it came out, but we didnt > > get any publicity. > > ( http://tacos.sus.mcgill.ca/~hperes/BT_BSD5.0/ ). We > > posted a comment > > on /. but it received little moderation. > > > > So when will it show up in the ports collection?? :) > > > > Eric > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > > Attitudes are contagious, is yours worth catching? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 8:16:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B7C37B405; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C2743EB2; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:16:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h0LGGfQ04603; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:16:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:16:41 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Hunter Peress Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 Message-ID: <20030121111641.E4196@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Hunter Peress , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030121160105.30911.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hunter Peress wrote: > We're in debian (and hence knoppix), and gentoo. Both of these > packages have come from users of BitTorrent. Other packages like a > ports style one will currently also have to come from users. I tried porting it some days ago, I got stuck because the wxpython port wouldn't compile (on 5.0-current). See PR ports/46985. I tried it again yesterday, and it still broke, but at a different place. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 8:26:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8FA37B405 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41309.mail.yahoo.com (web41309.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.58]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C8C5543F5F for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030121162635.47273.qmail@web41309.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41309.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:26:35 PST Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030121111641.E4196@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh.. Well, BitTorrent has many...many... UI's now. Straight off, BitTorrent can run off the commandline as btdownloadheadless.py OR btdownloadcurses.py (theres a curses library that comes with python, however, it might only be for linux). Again, btdownloadhess.py is dependant on nothing but python. So you can make a port as is, and then when you work out your problems with wxpython ...update the port. On debian for example, BitTorrent 3.1 is not compatible with wxpython < 2.3, so if your running debian testing, the package simply doesnt install wxpython. As a quick note, its libgtkwx2.3-python that's compatible with python 2.2 and its libgtkwx2.2-python that's compatible with python 2.1 anyway, hop on the torrent! :-) --- Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Hunter Peress wrote: > > We're in debian (and hence knoppix), and gentoo. Both of these > > packages have come from users of BitTorrent. Other packages like a > > ports style one will currently also have to come from users. > > I tried porting it some days ago, I got stuck because the wxpython > port wouldn't compile (on 5.0-current). See PR ports/46985. > > I tried it again yesterday, and it still broke, but at a different > place. > > - Rahul > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 9:30:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4E737B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290D443E4A for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rolnif@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h0LHUjwU029781 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([66.92.1.188]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H92RB800.R6Q for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:30:44 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:26:55 -0800 Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: John Martinez To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <89B972C0-2D65-11D7-941A-0003937C0B34@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 05:09 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Martinez writes: >> I may not know all of the ins-and-outs of the BSD license and the GPL, >> but I think it's a discussion worth reading about. > > It gets a bit tiresome after a dozen repetitions or so. Thanks. I'm a relatively newcomer to the list. I've been on -questions and -security for a while, but though I'd give -chat a try. -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 9:39:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99A937B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from fep08.tmt.tele.fi (hank-fep8-0.inet.fi [194.251.242.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E295943F1E for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reko.turja@pp.inet.fi) Received: from reko ([62.71.30.51]) by fep08.tmt.tele.fi (InterMail vM.5.01.03.13 201-253-122-118-113-20010918) with SMTP id <20030121173908.IWDP13105.fep08.tmt.tele.fi@reko> for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:39:08 +0200 Message-ID: <005801c2c174$05513390$0a06a8c0@reko> From: "Reko Turja" To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost><4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost><200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au><3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> Subject: OpenWatcom (was Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:39:16 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote > GCC's way of handling inline assembler code is in no way unique, as > anyone who had the pleasure of using Watcom C/C++ will testify. Speaking of Watcom, the OpenWatcom project has progressed to 1.0 and at the moment already has some sort of support for Alpha CPU's as well as Linux. And at the present there is bit of talk on OW newsgroups concerning where to add FreeBSD headers & libraries. But AFAIK there are no BSD developers in the project yet... More info can be found on their website www.openwatcom.org -Reko (not affiliated, but interested) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 10: 9:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9381737B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C253643F18 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01) with ESMTP id <2003012118093100100hpllbe>; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:09:31 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0LI7tm9028370; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0LI7nXL028365; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:07:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 21 Jan 2003 10:07:49 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <824r82pea2.r82@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > I believe the person you are thinking of is actually John Dyson; Ahhhh. I don't remember seeing his name since I switched from Usenet (including gnu.misc.discuss) to freebsd.org 18 months ago and I had forgotten about him. I had saved one message in which he flamed "GPV" (General Public Virus, ha ha) and listed many ways to combat it. One item was especially notable: 5) Accept working GPLed code as a gift, and thank those who have worked on it (even the GPL religious.) Those people have spent time on that work, and no matter their politics, are valuable human beings. Your diagnosis of FreeBSD marketing/change/Brett/etc was interesting and I agree fully (to the extent I understand "emergent properties" :). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 10:27:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE0437B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6354343EB2 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from host.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05325; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:27:26 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121112658.03821dd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:27:22 -0700 To: "Reko Turja" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: OpenWatcom (was Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) In-Reply-To: <005801c2c174$05513390$0a06a8c0@reko> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:39 AM 1/21/2003, Reko Turja wrote: >Speaking of Watcom, the OpenWatcom project has progressed to 1.0 and at >the moment already has some sort of support for Alpha CPU's as well as >Linux. And their license is viral. No go. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 12:16:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7369337B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEFF43E4A for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0LKGZ187792; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301212016.h0LKGZ187792@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:16:30 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > For the record, I'm well aware of the fact that > google does not skew search results for money, Fact? I take it you have proof? > For all I know, it just means they are now obeying the ".robots" > file, and they weren't before... 8-) 8-). Ah, you don't. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< A well developed sense of the dramatic has values beyond what people usually imagine. One of these is to realize the limitations of a sense of the dramatic. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 13:27:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9491A37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from monster.schulte.org (monster.schulte.org [209.134.156.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B6843F3F for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from schulte+freebsd@nospam.schulte.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monster.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8651FC1A; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:27:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from raja.nospam.schulte.org (futon.schulte.org [209.134.156.199]) by monster.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E767F1FC19; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:27:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030121152558.07b04e48@localhost> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:27:21 -0600 To: Dave Hayes , Terry Lambert From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200301212016.h0LKGZ187792@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 on monster.schulte.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:16 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote: >Terry Lambert writes: > > For the record, I'm well aware of the fact that > > google does not skew search results for money, > >Fact? I take it you have proof? http://www.google.com/technology/index.html Look under Integrity. That's good enough for me. >------ >Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org -- Christopher Schulte http://www.schulte.org/ Do not un-munge my @nospam.schulte.org email address. This address is valid. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:12:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD36D37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E62543EB2 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b7ZN-0002gs-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:12:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DD392.A1299656@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:11:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Martinez Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <89B972C0-2D65-11D7-941A-0003937C0B34@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c1d7a7c200bf7d32bea67fbc672d28e0667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Martinez wrote: > On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 05:09 AM, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > John Martinez writes: > >> I may not know all of the ins-and-outs of the BSD license and the GPL, > >> but I think it's a discussion worth reading about. > > > > It gets a bit tiresome after a dozen repetitions or so. > > Thanks. I'm a relatively newcomer to the list. > > I've been on -questions and -security for a while, but though I'd give > -chat a try. "Jaded old farts" believe that everyone should read the entire archives of a mailing list -- including the stuff that was posted before someone thought that the mailing list should be archived, which only exists on the hard disks of "jaded old farts", and is not even complete there. Then, and *only* then, should you post, because having read their own brilliant, erudite, and utterly convincing postings on each subject, you will be enlightened, and therefore you will take the right and proper "jaded old fart" position on all topics. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:16:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF6237B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AF243EB2 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F76F3D27; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:16:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:16:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3E2D8E89.3080.4F8C4B8D@localhost> In-reply-to: <3E2DD392.A1299656@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Jan 2003 at 15:11, Terry Lambert wrote: > Then, and *only* then, should you post, because having read their > own brilliant, erudite, and utterly convincing postings on each > subject, you will be enlightened, and therefore you will take the > right and proper "jaded old fart" position on all topics. Some might consider our Terry one of those JOFs. ;) -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:23:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EC837B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3776743F18 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b7kF-0004Ef-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:23:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DD631.BAAFC804@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:22:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Reko Turja Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OpenWatcom (was Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost><4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost><200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au><3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> <005801c2c174$05513390$0a06a8c0@reko> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47ba4ef7a0abebd1f4053b9beac31832f387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Reko Turja wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote > > GCC's way of handling inline assembler code is in no way unique, as > > anyone who had the pleasure of using Watcom C/C++ will testify. > > Speaking of Watcom, the OpenWatcom project has progressed to 1.0 and at > the moment already has some sort of support for Alpha CPU's as well as > Linux. And at the present there is bit of talk on OW newsgroups > concerning where to add FreeBSD headers & libraries. But AFAIK there are > no BSD developers in the project yet... > > More info can be found on their website www.openwatcom.org http://openwatcom.org/license_info/open_watcom_lic.html Oversimplified: 1) Similar to GPL, but... 2) Better written, to eliminate most GPL loopholes 3) Adds a patent grant 4) No opt-out on subsequent versions of the license, which means Sybase can change terms on existing code, going forward -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:30:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EB537B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D816E43ED8 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:30:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b7qk-00059x-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:30:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DD7B9.4677E97A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:28:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> <824r82pea2.r82@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47ba4ef7a0abebd1f98e6f53fe7c7395b387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Your diagnosis of FreeBSD marketing/change/Brett/etc was interesting and > I agree fully (to the extent I understand "emergent properties" :). Emergent properties: "Usually unintended consequences which are obvious in retrospective analysis, but not obvious before the fact, without a significant understanding of systems engineering, and an application of that knowledge to the system(s) in question." 8-). Or, if you'd prefer: "Things that happen that we didn't expect to happen, but if we did the same things again, the same things would happen, again." 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:34:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E193237B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE83743F5F for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:34:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h0LNYXOs033121; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:34:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h0LNYVjP033118; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:34:32 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:34:31 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) In-Reply-To: <3E2D8E89.3080.4F8C4B8D@localhost> Message-ID: <20030122013350.Q43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Dan Langille wrote: > On 21 Jan 2003 at 15:11, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Then, and *only* then, should you post, because having read their > > own brilliant, erudite, and utterly convincing postings on each > > subject, you will be enlightened, and therefore you will take the > > right and proper "jaded old fart" position on all topics. > > Some might consider our Terry one of those JOFs. ;) You would miss all (ok, most of) the humour if you don't 8-) > -- > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:37:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B6D37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F74A43F1E for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b7x9-00064W-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:37:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DD94E.435BEF79@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:35:42 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <200301212016.h0LKGZ187792@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4fbd260b0ce49652a1e3af4e6a47ac8af548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > For the record, I'm well aware of the fact that > > google does not skew search results for money, > > Fact? I take it you have proof? Consensus reality. > > For all I know, it just means they are now obeying the ".robots" > > file, and they weren't before... 8-) 8-). > > Ah, you don't. ;) You're from the universe where Spock has a beard, aren't you? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:46:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C10337B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fep06.tmt.tele.fi (hank-fep6-0.inet.fi [194.251.242.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBAE43ED8 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:46:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reko.turja@pp.inet.fi) Received: from reko ([62.71.30.51]) by fep06.tmt.tele.fi (InterMail vM.5.01.03.13 201-253-122-118-113-20010918) with SMTP id <20030121234609.NFLZ18921.fep06.tmt.tele.fi@reko>; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:46:09 +0200 Message-ID: <01b101c2c1a7$4af0a7e0$0a06a8c0@reko> From: "Reko Turja" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost><4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost><200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au><3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> <005801c2c174$05513390$0a06a8c0@reko> <3E2DD631.BAAFC804@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: OpenWatcom (was Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:46:17 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote > Oversimplified: > > 1) Similar to GPL, but... License matters aside - I guess that their interest in BSD's isn't a bad thing in any case. At least my point was the interest from their part. Watcom is/was a nice compiler anyway ;) -Reko To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 15:47:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F4837B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4372443ED8 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:47:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b87I-0007RI-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:47:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DDBBD.602A3E87@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:46:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <3E2D8E89.3080.4F8C4B8D@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4fbd260b0ce49652a4139ccf7514d2ef43ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > On 21 Jan 2003 at 15:11, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Then, and *only* then, should you post, because having read their > > own brilliant, erudite, and utterly convincing postings on each > > subject, you will be enlightened, and therefore you will take the > > right and proper "jaded old fart" position on all topics. > > Some might consider our Terry one of those JOFs. ;) A JOF is someone who labels someone else a JOF. You JOF... ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 16:15:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5051F37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A84643F43 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b8Xs-0003Z5-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:15:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DE227.4AE34D4E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:13:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Reko Turja Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OpenWatcom (was Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost><4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost><200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au><3E2B89EC.4000107@kanga.org> <005801c2c174$05513390$0a06a8c0@reko> <3E2DD631.BAAFC804@mindspring.com> <01b101c2c1a7$4af0a7e0$0a06a8c0@reko> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ae978d26f42b445d8479fc64b2c230be666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Reko Turja wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote > > Oversimplified: > > > > 1) Similar to GPL, but... > > License matters aside - I guess that their interest in BSD's isn't a bad > thing in any case. At least my point was the interest from their part. > Watcom is/was a nice compiler anyway ;) We use Watcom at Novell, for developing NLMs. I believe it was also the default compiler on a number of odd systems that people have probably never heard of before, unless they went to school in the late 1970's, early 1980's. I have a lot of respect for the Watcom technology. But they have removed most of the utility, by removing, rather than getting rights grants, all of the Novell and other code copyright other companies (e.g. in order to do compilations for these target systems, you now have to come up with your own header files). I understand this; they are attempting to leverage Open Source dynamics, in order to extend the product lifecycle of a product whose marginal value is about to be exceeded by the cost of maintenance, and they are attempting to leverage the Open Source branding in order to be able to shift costs from corporate communications into maintenance for the product, in order to extend its value as a property. This all makes sense... and they are smart enough that they did not spend more than six months in the foot-shooting that Mozilla engaged in by shipping non-working code: the code works, which removes the incredible barrier to participation that Mozilla was facing wh it was first released: Mozilla's subsidy-cycle was a good three years plus (I have not seen significant activity on the FreeBSD Mozilla list, to which I'm subscribed, for a very long time). Still, it seems to me that they don't understand licensing, and that the issue of participation in Mozilla was not that the license wasn't GPL-like enough, it was that the code did not compile to anthing that would run. Like the original Net/1 and Net/2 releases of BSD UNIX, you got an wet suit with arms, legs, and a head in it (maybe the left hand was missing, too), and SCUBA tanks, when what you were expecting to get was a living diver, not body parts. It took Bill Jolitz making the thing into a bootable system before people started coding on it. A good key to the motivation for participation comes from the damping effect that the AT&T lawsuits and cease-and-desist orders hasd on the various BSD-derived projects. Instead of noting that it happened, ask yourself why a cease-and-desist order was at all meaningful to people who ESR and RMS would have us believe were coding for themselves? It seems to me that the "competition" for talent that Watcom is facing is GCC, and that in order to get people working on their code for them, they need to ensure that their pool of available talent is a superset of the talent available for GCC. And that, sir, is an artifact of the license they are using. Consider it from this point of view: how many people who now work on GCC will be willing to change horses -- effectively, admit that they backed the wrong project -- and learn an entirely new code base, in order to be able to continue to do what they are already doing in the context of their work on GCC? I submit that this will be a small number of people... if any. If people do jump ship, it will be in order to work on something new, or to establis themselves as prinicple contributors (if those roles are not already gone, to Watcom employees, and therefore unavailable). If they are truly interested in BSD as a market, then they have to provide some value, other than "just like GCC, except you lose patent rights, and we can change the license on your code out from under you!". If they were to change the license, such that: 1) It were more similar to the MPL 2) It did not have the section 2.1 limitation on R&D and personal use and/or it was more clear that section 2.2 in fact included the subelements of 2.1, rather than 2.1, itself 3) The license "update" was not mandatory for third party supplied code in a derivative work It would be much more attractive, at least to me. The ultimate question is "what changes would it take to get `The Brett Glass Seal Of Approval'", I think, since anything that could include that would include all points in between. As it is, they are attempting to compete head-to-head with GCC, for the market that GCC has already captured. I don't expect that they will be successful in this. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 16:27:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AD237B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:27:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C3F43F13 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:27:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12d.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.77] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b8jg-0000ga-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:27:20 -0800 Received: (qmail 21014 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Jan 2003 00:27:19 -0000 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:27:19 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mozilla (was: Openwatcom) Message-ID: <20030122002719.GA20049@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> <824r82pea2.r82@localhost.localdomain> <3E2DD7B9.4677E97A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E2DE227.4AE34D4E@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > (I have not seen significant activity on > the FreeBSD Mozilla list, to which I'm subscribed, for a very > long time). Gee, I haven't seen any activity on the FreeBSD GCC list for a while -- in fact I don't think such a list exists. GCC must be dead, too. However, for mozilla, perhaps you could try the freebsd-gnome list. This week's archives are on http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-gnome.html - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 16:48:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A10C37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B333A43EB2 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:48:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0183.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.183] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18b945-0000hy-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:48:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2DE9E6.831BD969@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:46:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mozilla (was: Openwatcom) References: <20030120141556.E1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030120160000.F1857@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E2CC016.54BDBA5F@mindspring.com> <824r82pea2.r82@localhost.localdomain> <3E2DD7B9.4677E97A@mindspring.com> <20030122002719.GA20049@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e67ad14b13f1d1f5d57a74ed7a15def2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > (I have not seen significant activity on > > the FreeBSD Mozilla list, to which I'm subscribed, for a very > > long time). > > Gee, I haven't seen any activity on the FreeBSD GCC list for a > while -- in fact I don't think such a list exists. GCC must be > dead, too. The interest of people attracted to FreeBSD in making changes to the GCC code base *is* dead. It's pretty much *been* dead, since the point that the FSF refused to integrate a.out share library support into binutils, and FreeBSD went off on its own with "ld" and similar code maintenance. Even if FreeBSD is "mainstreamed back into the fold" now, the amount of effort that the FSF can expect FreeBSD persons to spend on GCC is practically limited to porting and maintenance with respect to FreeBSD specific issues. FreeBSD folks are not going to be fixing "-march" to work as it should (for example); if that comes from anywhere, it's going to come from some GCC nerd somewhere who has a stronger interest in it than "it's a tool I use". For the same reasons Brett Glass can not motivate people in the FreeBSD camp to replace GCC, the GCC folks will be unable to motivate people in the FreeBSD camp to do signifcant work on GCC. > However, for mozilla, perhaps you could try the freebsd-gnome list. > This week's archives are on > http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/freebsd-gnome.html Other than two messages (one asking, and one replying) about an update of the posting (which is the wrong list for it), mostly it's people complaining about someone breaking it. Like GCC, Mozilla is furniture: no one notices it until it's not there, or until it's broken. Even so, it is *not* "an active project in the context of FreeBSD". My feeling is that the "FreeBSD-mozilla" list was to serve the purpose of competition "to the first working code", and never had much real utility, beyond motivating people in other places to work harder because of phantom (not real) compeititon towards this goal). It has served its purpose. In fact, I suggest disbanding the FreeBSD-mozilla mailing list. In any case, Mozilla is *now* an active project, but if you look at its history, it languished for volunteers for a *VERY* long, and only survived as a project because it was propped up and kept on life support by engineering resources from the Netscape corporate self interest department. Mozilla would never have survived in the wild, if it had not had a worried parent giving it blood transfusions for 3.5 years. Mozilla made the classic "Source Forge Faux Pas": you can not create an Open Source project merely by declaring it into existance, with no working code, and no support systems, with no feedback loops, etc.. Mozilla still suffers from this, though, in that their reputation was damaged in the process, which makes it harder for them to attract resources. The Open Watcom people are *similarly* trying "declare a project into existance", but they are, at least, doing it with working code, after "only" 0.5 years of blood transfusions. Whether or not it takes off now depends on their communications, their systems, and their legal issues, which control whether or not they will achieve critical mass in a self-sustaining social reaction. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 17: 3: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149D137B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41A743F5B for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:02:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0M12v0L009583; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0M12r6g009582; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:02:52 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030122010252.GB9416@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3E2D8E89.3080.4F8C4B8D@localhost> <3E2DDBBD.602A3E87@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E2DDBBD.602A3E87@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > Dan Langille wrote: > > On 21 Jan 2003 at 15:11, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Then, and *only* then, should you post, because having read their > > > own brilliant, erudite, and utterly convincing postings on each > > > subject, you will be enlightened, and therefore you will take the > > > right and proper "jaded old fart" position on all topics. > > > > Some might consider our Terry one of those JOFs. ;) > > A JOF is someone who labels someone else a JOF. You JOF... ;^). ``JOF''...ISAGN for a FAQ entry. Actually, we need one for Terry specifically, just so we can warn people before they subscribe. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 17: 9:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7E637B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:09:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B3043F6B for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0M18v190265; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301220108.h0M18v190265@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:08:52 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: > For the record, >> I'm well aware of the fact that > google does not skew search >> results for money, >> >> Fact? I take it you have proof? > > Consensus reality. Exactly. You don't have proof. Now can you explain why this goes counter to your position that all facts are provably true? >> > For all I know, it just means they are now obeying the ".robots" >> > file, and they weren't before... 8-) 8-). >> >> Ah, you don't. ;) > > You're from the universe where Spock has a beard, aren't you? Nope, I'm from the universe where Cartman is warm and loving. X) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 17:17:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3125F37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:17:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70E143E4A for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:17:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0M1HS190415; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301220117.h0M1HS190415@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Dan Langille" Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:17:23 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille writes: > Some might consider our Terry one of those JOFs. ;) "Might"? You mean...there's some doubt? ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< The net poses a fundamental threat not only to the authority of the government, but to all authority, because it permits people to organize, think, and influence one another without any institutional supervision whatsoever. - John Seabrook "My First Flame" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 17:36:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E46C37B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41303.mail.yahoo.com (web41303.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2CF143E4A for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030122013626.20274.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41303.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:36:26 PST Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:36:26 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 To: andre@netvision.com.br Cc: chat@freebsd.org, bmah@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200301211641.04252@NiceOne> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Andre wrote: > I wish the KDE project distributed their files with this, everytime they > release something is a pain to download it. > And I'm sad I don't read the freebsd-www mailling list, I'd have downloaded > FreeBSD using BitTorrent! I think that now, most people who wanted to > download FreeBSD 5 release, already did so, so you won't see much people > downloading it from BitTorrent. > And since you seem to have experience with BitTorrent, let me ask you > something: If I want to share some files, separately, do I have to run > several copies of the BitTorrent downloader, one for each file? > > Thank you. > Link to torrent (mostly dead, but it WILL work) *anyone( if you want to have some fun and see BT in action, organize 5+ people to hop onto a torrent at the link below). http://tacos.sus.mcgill.ca/~hperes/BT_BSD5.0/ Andre: come to irc.freenode.net #bittorrent and yes in 3.1 try btlaunchmany.py So: I understand, its just that we can't do anything but publicize it. We REALLY wish that the community could throw 10,000+ people at the torrent...you can see from the original email i sent to the list that this amount has been done, but only for illegitimate files. (technically it was 12,000 x 3.1 GB of LOTR2 yes, thats 36 TB in one day, and guess how much the server served out of that? 0 bits and 0 $$ ). Anyway, bob MAH suggested that I publicize to the chat and current lists and I've done so. So bob, could you link to a torrent off the www page on the next release (we'll wait months obviously until 5.1 or whatever comes next). Bob, if you need personal convincing, come to that irc channel, and we'll take you through the ropes. BTW, /. is going to feature a torrented link during the next few stories it does where there is a BIG file to xfer. As a final note: being conservative will only lead to decay. We've tested bittorrent for over 1.5 years now both as a protocol AND as an implemenation of that, its extremely solid and scales extremely well. come to irc and we will show you this and get rid of any insecurities you might have, so that we can all move forward. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 18: 8:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19CFA37B401; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A69A43E4A; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 18:08:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id h0M280Z07445; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:08:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:07:52 +0100 To: Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:45 PM -0800 2003/01/10, Doug Barton wrote: > My ultimate goal is to produce a web-based DNS Management tool with an SQL > back end. I've been doing some further research for the talk I'll be doing at RIPE 44 next week, and I found out about a couple of other packages you should know about. Specifically, PowerDNS is a front-end to a variety of SQL database implementations (including MySQL and PostgreSQL), and is sufficiently powerful and robust that it is in use serving as the exclusive provider of DNS services for the ccTLD ".tk". They also have managed services, commercial support and consulting, etc.... It's also been recently released as open source software. The only thing I don't know is just how fast the program is compared to the alternatives. I will be benchmarking it next, and then I'll be able to more accurately compare it to the alternatives. You should also know about MyDNS. It's another front-end to MySQL, although it appears to have had less development, fewer features, probably less robust, etc.... However, it does ship with some pre-built PHP scripts for doing DNS management through the back-end database, and may be interesting for that reason alone. See and . There's a pretty good list of various server programs available at , although it doesn't list QuickDNS from Men & Mice (see ). -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 19:46:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19E637B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A98643F18 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0027.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.27] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18bBqT-0005Hu-00; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:46:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2E13C3.3C5AF11A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:45:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) References: <200301220108.h0M18v190265@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4f74092243ae57cd6d9783f49520ac6be3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Dave Hayes wrote: > >> Terry Lambert writes: > For the record, > >> I'm well aware of the fact that > google does not skew search > >> results for money, > >> > >> Fact? I take it you have proof? > > > > Consensus reality. > > Exactly. You don't have proof. Now can you explain why this goes > counter to your position that all facts are provably true? It doesn't go counter to that. Are you confusing "subjectively true" with "objectively true" again? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 21 22:39:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F4237B401 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A035943F6B for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:39:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0M6dE192285; Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:39:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301220639.h0M6dE192285@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:39:08 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > It doesn't go counter to that. Are you confusing "subjectively > true" with "objectively true" again? There is no objective truth that you can prove exists. All truth is subjective, at least as the human mind understands it. At the very least, you deciding to be on whichever side of the line you see fit is a great display of subjectivity. ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Our greatest fears are shadows of things that don't exist. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 7:44:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B874D37B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from monster.schulte.org (monster.schulte.org [209.134.156.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8128943ED8 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:44:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from schulte+freebsd@nospam.schulte.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monster.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1741FB47; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:44:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from raja.nospam.schulte.org (futon.schulte.org [209.134.156.199]) by monster.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615581FB46; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:44:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030122093020.0701d328@localhost> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:43:59 -0600 To: Dave Hayes , Terry Lambert From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200301220639.h0M6dE192285@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 on monster.schulte.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:39 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote: >There is no objective truth that you can prove exists. All truth >is subjective, at least as the human mind understands it. > >At the very least, you deciding to be on whichever side of the >line you see fit is a great display of subjectivity. ;) Let's try this one more time. http://www.google.com/technology/index.html Look under Integrity. Google does not take money for placement in search results. Do not make this some convoluted and meaningless debate on the definition of truth. Google does not take money for placement in search results, as posted on their public website. This is, to my satisfaction and the satisfaction that any reasonable person would accept for general daily use, a truth. You might want to check out sci.philosophy.tech for future enlightenment? >------ >Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org -- Christopher Schulte http://www.schulte.org/ Do not un-munge my @nospam.schulte.org email address. This address is valid. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 8:26: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0B037B406 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail13.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6806043E4A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 31878 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2003 16:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail13.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 22 Jan 2003 16:26:05 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0MGQ0UT037981; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:26:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <77el77po2u.l77@localhost.localdomain> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:26:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: (Gary W. Swearingen) Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Rahul Siddharthan Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Jan-2003 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > >> Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> > >> > Brett has used his real main talents in the development of BSD code more >> > than enough to deserve our tolerance in his choice of -chat topics. >> >> Eh? What BSD code, exactly, has he developed/contributed? > > I thought that he developed a whole lot of the Virtual Memory code. A > /usr/src/ *.c search finds nothing. A little time at groups.google.com > found thousands of Brett Glass hits but it left me suspecting that I was > wrong. I expect that someone who knows better will speak up. You've confused Brett with Terry Lambert. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 8:26: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4135737B405 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail14.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EB743F1E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:26:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 8630 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail14.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 22 Jan 2003 16:26:07 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0MGQ2UT037984; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:26:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119123751.00d4cc00@localhost> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:26:05 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Jan-2003 Brett Glass wrote: > Just read the 5.0-RELEASE announcement, and was astonished to see the > following in the list of features: > > - The GCC 3.2.1 compiler provides the latest installment of the > ever-improving GNU Compiler Collection. > > FreeBSD's dependency upon the FSF's code is a bug, not a feature, and > should not be touted as the latter. Oh, please. If you want a BSDl'd compiler so badly, why not put your money where you mouth is and fund some developers. Heck, writing a compiler to support all the different arch's is a pain and a large task, why not work on replacing things like grep (there is a freegrep, it works but is really slow right now IIRC) or even just trying to replace binutils before replacing gcc. Just do something other than whine that other people aren't spending their volunteer time to please your selfish needs. In fact, I find it quite pathetic that you are complaining and unthankful for the fact that people took time to update the toolchain in the tree to make things like the sparc64 and ia64 ports possible. Without gcc 3.2.1, those ports _wouldn't_ exist. Period. Nor would upcoming work on AMD's x86-64 architecture. Grow up and show some appreciation for other people's hard work. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 9:18:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EFE37B405 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C8143F3F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494053D27; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:18:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:18:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: JOF Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3E2E8C16.15598.536ACCDA@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Jan 2003 at 15:46, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > On 21 Jan 2003 at 15:11, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Then, and *only* then, should you post, because having read their > > > own brilliant, erudite, and utterly convincing postings on each > > > subject, you will be enlightened, and therefore you will take the > > > right and proper "jaded old fart" position on all topics. > > > > Some might consider our Terry one of those JOFs. ;) > > A JOF is someone who labels someone else a JOF. You JOF... ;^). Luckily, I saved myself by claiming "some might".... -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 11:53:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF32537B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5671843E4A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:53:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0MJqs197959; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:52:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200301221952.h0MJqs197959@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Google (was: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!)) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:52:49 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christopher Schulte writes: > At 10:39 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Dave Hayes wrote: >> There is no objective truth that you can prove exists. All truth is >> subjective, at least as the human mind understands it. >> >> At the very least, you deciding to be on whichever side of the line >> you see fit is a great display of subjectivity. ;) > Do not make this some convoluted and meaningless debate on the > definition of truth. You mean you didn't see that it already was such a debate? > http://www.google.com/technology/index.html > Look under Integrity. > Google does not take money for placement in search results. Sure, I agree they say this on their website. This may even be true. You repeating this does not make it true. > This is, to my satisfaction and the satisfaction that any reasonable > person would accept for general daily use, a truth. For some arbitrary definition of "reasonable", of course. I note also that you are implying that the acceptance of a "truth" is somehow connected to one's reasonability. Is that intellectually honest? > You might want to check out sci.philosophy.tech for future > enlightenment? Unfortunately for this sentiment, my enlightenment does not come from any sort of consensual reality. ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< Because you grasp labels and slogans, you are hindered by those labels and slogans, both those used in ordinary life and those considered sacred. Thus they obstruct your perception of objective truth, and you cannot understand clearly. -Zen Master Linji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 14:39:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F41C37B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4818443F1E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:39:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h0MMdEIF020686 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:39:14 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: FreeBSD code that gives you the *shivers*? Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:39:03 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c2c267$119172c0$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A while back I ran across something on one of the Linux lists asking what the scariest code in the linux kernel was. Just out of sheer curiosity, what would people consider to be the scariest code in the FreeBSD codebase? And why? (Please don't post something like "everything under /usr/src/gnu" because it's all GNU code). -Stacy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 14:52:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503AF37B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739BD43E4A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0MMqQX0087561 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:52:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h0MMqPcM087560 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:52:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:52:25 -0600 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD code that gives you the *shivers*? Message-ID: <20030122225225.GA87532@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <000901c2c267$119172c0$0502000a@sentinel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000901c2c267$119172c0$0502000a@sentinel> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:39:03PM +0100, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > Just out of sheer curiosity, what would people consider to be the > scariest code in the FreeBSD codebase? And why? (Please don't post > something like "everything under /usr/src/gnu" because it's > all GNU code). The code which implements the "r" and "f" options in /usr/src/bin/rm/rm.c, specifically rm_tree(). OTOH suspect you really mean "bad code", rather than code which is frightening. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 16:16:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882D637B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 845B543ED8 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h0N0FnOs045830; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:15:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h0N0FlIB045827; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:15:48 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:15:47 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Stacy Olivas Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD code that gives you the *shivers*? In-Reply-To: <000901c2c267$119172c0$0502000a@sentinel> Message-ID: <20030123021231.C43637-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Stacy Olivas wrote: > A while back I ran across something on one of the Linux lists asking what > the > scariest code in the linux kernel was. > > Just out of sheer curiosity, what would people consider to be the scariest > code in the FreeBSD > codebase? And why? (Please don't post something like "everything under > /usr/src/gnu" because it's > all GNU code). > Parts of the very much BSD TCP/IP stack aren't axactly something you'd want to shake hands with > -Stacy > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 16:37:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABE137B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:37:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C2F43ED8 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:37:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <2003012300371200300076dve>; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:37:12 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0N0ZSm9051807 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0N0ZNW2051804; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Lawyers to be sicked on *BSD? From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Jan 2003 16:35:23 -0800 Message-ID: <0gvg0gn1o4.g0g@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found this via Slashdot "story", so .... The CEO of some company is being quoted as saying: "To us, it's not an issue of: Is Linux violating (SCO intellectual property)? It's an issue of: Is anybody violating it?" and "If you pull down (Mac) OS X you'll see a lot of copyright postings that point back to Unix Systems Laboratories, which is what we hold." Reports of high-powered (at least before 2000 Election) law firm, *BSD being suspect, $149 license fees, all sorts of fun... See http://news.com.com/2100-1001-981569.html?tag=fd_top To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 16:50:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B531737B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BE743F43 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0182.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.182] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18bVZV-00025f-00; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:50:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3E2F3BE6.A8FEEFA5@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:48:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lawyers to be sicked on *BSD? References: <0gvg0gn1o4.g0g@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a448dbacc53c8a86395d8da07fcebe2db8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > I found this via Slashdot "story", so .... > > The CEO of some company is being quoted as saying: > > "To us, it's not an issue of: Is Linux violating (SCO intellectual > property)? It's an issue of: Is anybody violating it?" > > and > > "If you pull down (Mac) OS X you'll see a lot of copyright postings > that point back to Unix Systems Laboratories, which is what we hold." They already settled this with BSDI and UCB back in the 1990's. Now it's Linux' turn. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 20:30:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8C637B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A7943E4A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:30:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12d.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.77] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18bZ0f-00065B-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:30:37 -0800 Received: (qmail 18608 invoked by uid 1001); 23 Jan 2003 04:30:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:30:33 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Stacy Olivas Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD code that gives you the *shivers*? Message-ID: <20030123043033.GA18520@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000901c2c267$119172c0$0502000a@sentinel> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stacy Olivas wrote: > Just out of sheer curiosity, what would people consider to be the scariest > code in the FreeBSD codebase? This one has cropped up on this list before, I think: /usr/src/usr.bin/chat/chat.c (look at the getopt() stuff, around line 130) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 22 21: 5:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2380837B401 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4651743F65 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0N55b3J024954 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:05:37 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:05:36 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <1043295876.6598.207.camel@duncan.au.darkbluesea.com> In-Reply-To: <1043295876.6598.207.camel@duncan.au.darkbluesea.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday 23 January 2003 15:24, Duncan Anker wrote: > > i just overwrote a critical file, can anyone andvise me on how to rec= over > > it? > I don't believe there is any way to recover an overwritten file. Is there a particular reason why there are no facilities to 'un' unlink a= file=20 in freebsd? (apart from the obvious reaon of - people shouldnt delete fi= les=20 that they want to keep)...=20 is there some philisopical reason that it shouldnt be at least an option?= or=20 is it just due to no one bothering? perhaps it could be disabled by defau= lt,=20 but enabled on a per file system basis via fstab? (ie the /home partion). Yes I know people should make backups, but there are always going to be i= diot=20 out there and it may save some admin's some time? thoughts? Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 7: 4:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C58137B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41306.mail.yahoo.com (web41306.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CABC43ED8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:04:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030123150426.77598.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:04:26 PST Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:04:26 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: Another of my mailservers is being blocked by freebsd.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I've been having to use this yahoo account because my normal email server *seems* to be blocked by freebsd.org: This has been going on for days now: > > The original message was received at Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:52:39 -0500 (EST) > from cs2417534-45.austin.rr.com [24.175.34.45] > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > (reason: 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found) > > (reason: 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to mx1.freebsd.org.: > >>> DATA > <<< 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found > ... Deferred: 450 : Helo command > rejected: Host not found > <<< 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found > ... Deferred: 450 : Helo > command > rejected: Host not found > <<< 554 Error: no valid recipients > Message could not be delivered for 1 day > Message will be deleted from queue > > > Reporting-MTA: dns; txsmtp01.texas.rr.com > Arrival-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:52:39 -0500 (EST) > > Final-Recipient: RFC822; freebsd-current@freebsd.org > Action: failed > Status: 4.4.7 > Remote-MTA: DNS; mx1.freebsd.org > Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 450 : Helo command rejected: Host > not > found > Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:44:27 -0500 (EST) > > Final-Recipient: RFC822; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Action: failed > Status: 4.4.7 > Remote-MTA: DNS; mx1.freebsd.org > Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 450 : Helo command rejected: Host > not > found > Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:44:27 -0500 (EST) > > > Received: from localhost.localdomain (cs2417534-45.austin.rr.com [24.175.34.45]) > by txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h0L8qXua016615; > Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:52:39 -0500 (EST) > Subject: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 > From: Hunter Peress > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.5 > Date: 21 Jan 2003 03:10:11 -0600 > Message-Id: <1043140229.28776.106.camel@HillCountryPeress> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 7:11:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230C137B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A942A43F1E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:11:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1E8479F037; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:11:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:11:47 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: Hunter Peress Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another of my mailservers is being blocked by freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030123151147.GA53562@rfc822.net> References: <20030123150426.77598.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030123150426.77598.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 07:04:26AM -0800, Hunter Peress wrote: > Hi, I've been having to use this yahoo account because my normal email server > *seems* to be blocked by freebsd.org: > > This has been going on for days now: > > > > > The original message was received at Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:52:39 -0500 (EST) > > from cs2417534-45.austin.rr.com [24.175.34.45] > > > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > > (reason: 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found) So yell at RoadRunner. I imagine plenty of mail from your POP is getting blocked by far larger organizations because RoadRunner's outbound SMTP server is NXDOMAIN. -Pete To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 7:12:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA72537B401; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from panther.wmin.ac.uk (panther.wmin.ac.uk [161.74.55.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0682843F5F; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:12:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.knell@westminster.ac.uk) Received: from cougar.wmin.ac.uk ([161.74.160.93] ident=exim) by panther.wmin.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 18bj1Y-00029Z-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:12 +0000 Received: from lemming.irs.wmin.ac.uk ([161.74.75.42] helo=wmin.ac.uk) by cougar.wmin.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 18bj1X-0005JO-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:11 +0000 Message-ID: <3E30064A.9000402@wmin.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:10 +0000 From: Mike Knell Organization: University of Westminster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021121 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hunter Peress Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another of my mailservers is being blocked by freebsd.org References: <20030123150426.77598.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hunter Peress wrote: > Hi, I've been having to use this yahoo account because my normal email server > *seems* to be blocked by freebsd.org: > > This has been going on for days now: > > >>The original message was received at Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:52:39 -0500 (EST) >>from cs2417534-45.austin.rr.com [24.175.34.45] >> >> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >> >> (reason: 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found) >> >> (reason: 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found) As the bounce message suggests -- I'm sure someone will provide chapter and verse on this shortly, but could the problem be that txsmtp01.texas.rr.com. doesn't actually exist in the DNS? A lot of machines will (quite rightly) reject mail from apparently bogus domains.. eland:knellm~$ dig @ns1.texas.rr.com. txsmtp01.texas.rr.com. ANY ; <<>> DiG 9.2.1 <<>> @ns1.texas.rr.com. txsmtp01.texas.rr.com. ANY ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 60402 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;txsmtp01.texas.rr.com. IN ANY ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: texas.rr.com. 3600 IN SOA ns1.texas.rr.com. rradm.texas.rr.com. 2003012001 3600 600 86400 3600 ;; Query time: 133 msec ;; SERVER: 24.93.35.32#53(ns1.texas.rr.com.) ;; WHEN: Thu Jan 23 15:11:11 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 85 Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 7:13: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEADC37B401; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pump3.york.ac.uk (pump3.york.ac.uk [144.32.128.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771D243F3F; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gavin@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from ury.york.ac.uk (ury.york.ac.uk [144.32.108.81]) by pump3.york.ac.uk (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h0NFCuI19701; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:56 GMT Received: from ury.york.ac.uk (localhost.york.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by ury.york.ac.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0NFCtY1063603; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:55 GMT (envelope-from gavin@ury.york.ac.uk) Received: from localhost (gavin@localhost) by ury.york.ac.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with ESMTP id h0NFCted063600; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:55 GMT Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:12:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Gavin Atkinson To: Hunter Peress Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "" Subject: Re: Another of my mailservers is being blocked by freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030123150426.77598.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030123150937.P63410-100000@ury.york.ac.uk> References: <20030123150426.77598.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Hunter Peress wrote: > Hi, I've been having to use this yahoo account because my normal email server > *seems* to be blocked by freebsd.org: > > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > > > (reason: 450 : Helo command rejected: Host not found) The message tells you the answer - Host not found. wumpus# nslookup txsmtp01.texas.rr.com Server: xxx.yyy.co.uk Address: www.xxx.yyy.zzz *** xxx.yyy.co.uk can't find txsmtp01.texas.rr.com: Non-existent host/domain You need to get your reverse DNS sorted out. Gavin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 8:12:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521A237B401; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCB443F3F; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@employees.org) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org (12-240-204-110.client.attbi.com[12.240.204.110]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <20030123161233053006sc2qe>; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:12:33 +0000 Received: from intruder.bmah.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0NGCXRG026908; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:12:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.bmah.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by intruder.bmah.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h0NGCWqP026907; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200301231612.h0NGCWqP026907@intruder.bmah.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5+ 20021120 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Hunter Peress Cc: andre@netvision.com.br, chat@freebsd.org, bmah@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 In-Reply-To: <20030122013626.20274.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030122013626.20274.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Comments: In-reply-to Hunter Peress message dated "Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:36:26 -0800." From: bmah@freebsd.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@freebsd.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1200605104P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:12:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_-1200605104P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Hunter Peress wrote: > --- Andre wrote: > > I wish the KDE project distributed their files with this, everytime they > > release something is a pain to download it. > > And I'm sad I don't read the freebsd-www mailling list, I'd have downloaded > > > FreeBSD using BitTorrent! I think that now, most people who wanted to > > download FreeBSD 5 release, already did so, I don't think this is true at all. [snip] > Anyway, bob MAH suggested that I publicize to the chat and current lists and > I've > done so. So bob, could you link to a torrent off the www page on the next rel > ease > (we'll wait months obviously until 5.1 or whatever comes next). > > Bob, if you need personal convincing, come to that irc channel, and we'll tak > e you > through the ropes. BTW, /. is going to feature a torrented link during the ne > xt few > stories it does where there is a BIG file to xfer. Who the heck is Bob? :-) I probably won't be the person to add a link to BT, mostly because I have no experience with it at all. (Would you recommend a product you've never used?) This isn't due to any problems in BT, it's due to a lack of time on my part to look into things. > As a final note: being conservative will only lead to decay. I'm one of the release engineers for FreeBSD. It is part of my "job" to be conservative. I don't think I'm decaying at all, nor is our project. That being said, I'm not the sole keeper of the Web site, far from it. I'm just the first (only?) one of 300+ total committers who happened to reply to your email. What I think would be great (and what I was trying to encourage) is if a bunch of people read your postings, tried out BT, and said "Hey, this is really a great mechanism for getting FreeBSD." Then at least we'd have a warm fuzzy feeling about it, and I'd feel good about advocating this as a distribution mechanism. That's one way to go. It's not the only one (there's plenty more that don't involve me at all, so please don't feel like I'm somebody that you need to convince of anything). Cheers, and good luck, Bruce. --==_Exmh_-1200605104P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE+MBRw2MoxcVugUsMRAipKAJ0VMTUq0Fmv1KfrzkQy5UDSQ7eo+ACfdvPx XjJ5oolHGrj1mQhb4B1n//E= =69IB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1200605104P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 9:34:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA4137B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6511843F1E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:34:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from creon.asml.nl ([146.106.1.223]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19948; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:29:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h0NHTfx01710; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:29:41 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17498; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:29:40 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030113141542.GC2260@rfc822.net> References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> <20030111144619.X22424@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E21FD22.38CD81BB@mindspring.com> <20030113141542.GC2260@rfc822.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:12:09 +0100 To: Pete Ehlke From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:15 AM -0600 2003/01/13, Pete Ehlke wrote: > Does anyone know the story about NSD? I've looked at it several times, > run it and played with it locally quite a bit, and found it extremely > interesting. But I've had a third-hand report that RIPE folks have said > (third hand, but this is the direct quote I got...) "the damn thing just > didn't work". Haven't been able to get more than that. Interestingly, it is now in production on ns.eu.net: To: dnsop@cafax.se Subject: NS.EU.NET running NSD. From: Daniel Diaz Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 10:50:32 +0100 (apologies for duplicates) Dear all, Since January 13, the RIPE NCC is running the NS.EU.NET nameserver with a new software, NSD ( http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/nsd ). In case of any observed oddity with NS.EU.NET and/or service, please let us know by sending an e-mail to . -- Daniel.Diaz Operations Manager RIPE NCC Maybe you should ask Daniel about it? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 11:17:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0580B37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764E843F7B for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 14455 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2003 19:17:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 23 Jan 2003 19:17:12 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0NJGqUT042074; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:16:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000901c2c267$119172c0$0502000a@sentinel> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:16:55 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Stacy Olivas Subject: RE: FreeBSD code that gives you the *shivers*? Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-Jan-2003 Stacy Olivas wrote: > A while back I ran across something on one of the Linux lists asking what > the > scariest code in the linux kernel was. > > Just out of sheer curiosity, what would people consider to be the scariest > code in the FreeBSD > codebase? And why? (Please don't post something like "everything under > /usr/src/gnu" because it's > all GNU code). In the kernel without question: src/sys/i386/isa/gpib.c (at least as far as ugly code goes) I think Peter broke down and cleaned it up in -current though. It's still nice and grotty in 4.x. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 11:35:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB5537B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (host213-121-98-56.in-addr.btopenworld.com [213.121.98.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1664243EB2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bensen3@hkem.com) From: "RS" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:35:06 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: bensen3@hkem.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20030123193510.1664243EB2@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org REQUEST I am MR REUBEN SAVIMBI one of the favorite sons of Mr.JONAS SAVIMBI (The Rebel leader) and also the head of the Unita Forces of Angola who was killed in the Struggle between Angolan arm forces and his unita rebels On Friday the 22nd of February 2002. I am from Angola but currently I am currently on exile due to the War in my country between the Rebel Group (Unita rebels) Led by my father Jonas Savimbi and the Angolan Government. I want a trust worthy, honest and God fearing individual to go into business Partnership with and that is the reason why I have decided to contact you. The fund for investment is US$45.5M (Forty Five Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars) and Diamond worth over Twelve Million Dollars. This fund was realized from the sales of Diamonds during the crisis between the Unita Rebels (headed by my father Jonas Savimbi) and the then President Jose Eduardo dos Santos Of Angola. I fled from my country with this fund, which my father suppose to use procure more arms for the Unita Rebels. This is because I felt that the battle waged by the Unita Forces was more of rebellion and it was baseless. I had this fund sealed in a diplomatic box and deposited in a private Security Company in Europe. I will need assistance from you to use your facilities to effect the removal of this fund and subsequently transferred to your nominated account in your country. This business has to be done in a more confidential manner. For participating in the business with me, I have two options for you. You can choose to have certain percentage of the funds or you can go into partnership with me for proper profitable investment of the money in your country. Whichever the option you want, feel free to notify me. The money is presently lodged with a security firm and I will give you further details immediately I hear from you. Please contact me immediately for the next line of action then I will introduce you to the security company where the funds are been deposited. I would like you to include your personal phone and fax numbers for more confidential Communication with the Security Company. I will like you to understand that I have no access to telephone for now so you are advice to contact me through my email address. Regards REUBEN J.SAVIMBI. (For the family) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 11:57: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DC537B401; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-48.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A16643F43; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:57:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CBB066B3A; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E05F61616; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:57:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:57:01 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Hunter Peress Cc: andre@netvision.com.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, bmah@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 Message-ID: <20030123195701.GH60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <200301211641.04252@NiceOne> <20030122013626.20274.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="t4apE7yKrX2dGgJC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030122013626.20274.qmail@web41303.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --t4apE7yKrX2dGgJC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > So:=20 > I understand, its just that we can't do anything but publicize it. We REA= LLY wish > that the community could throw 10,000+ people at the torrent...you can se= e from the > original email i sent to the list that this amount has been done, but onl= y for > illegitimate files. (technically it was 12,000 x 3.1 GB of LOTR2 yes, th= ats 36 TB > in one day, and guess how much the server served out of that? 0 bits and = 0 $$ ).=20 Steps to getting the community to use this: 1) Make a working port. I tried to port bittorrent once, but something (don't remember what) failed to compile. 2) Post to FreeBSD lists to announce your BT mirror when releases are made. Mention why people might want to try it this way instead of using ftp which they already understand and love. If it really is a better method of getting the bits, then some people will see this and start to use it. Kris --t4apE7yKrX2dGgJC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+MEkNWry0BWjoQKURArUNAKDbaa4DadpKY3/wslip2wqdUTUNdwCfbaQt EUQqp7Ydv7HPjPi6lN1ndcQ= =JkKm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --t4apE7yKrX2dGgJC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 11:58:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D765E37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-48.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3653D43F18 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA9F66B3A; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C66D7165C; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:58:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:58:07 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: JacobRhoden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Message-ID: <20030123195807.GI60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <1043295876.6598.207.camel@duncan.au.darkbluesea.com> <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PW0Eas8rCkcu1VkF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --PW0Eas8rCkcu1VkF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 04:05:36PM +1100, JacobRhoden wrote: > On Thursday 23 January 2003 15:24, Duncan Anker wrote: > > > i just overwrote a critical file, can anyone andvise me on how to rec= over > > > it? >=20 > > I don't believe there is any way to recover an overwritten file. >=20 > Is there a particular reason why there are no facilities to 'un' unlink a= file=20 > in freebsd? (apart from the obvious reaon of - people shouldnt delete fi= les=20 > that they want to keep)...=20 The filesystem isn't designed to allow it. Kris --PW0Eas8rCkcu1VkF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+MElPWry0BWjoQKURAjZIAKDnP2LE0SJJdA5rUPS1Z+I5qgdaNwCfYdUz 0soLzvrFUPV8UgUuQgCKzRA= =yUAG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PW0Eas8rCkcu1VkF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 12:20: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A91137B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41306.mail.yahoo.com (web41306.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFAA343ED8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:20:01 PST Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030123195701.GH60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 13:57, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > So: > > I understand, its just that we can't do anything but publicize it. We REALLY wish > > that the community could throw 10,000+ people at the torrent...you can see from the > > original email i sent to the list that this amount has been done, but only for > > illegitimate files. (technically it was 12,000 x 3.1 GB of LOTR2 yes, thats 36 TB > > in one day, and guess how much the server served out of that? 0 bits and 0 $$ ). > > Steps to getting the community to use this: > > 1) Make a working port. I tried to port bittorrent once, but > something (don't remember what) failed to compile. BT is in python and hence requires no compilation. MAYBE you are talking about wxpython, which requires wxwindows and that might be where your error was. Anyway, as I replied to someone on *this* list, initially, there is no need to make the GUI (through wx) work. Rather, you can just release the package so that at least the pure python UI's (like btdownloadheadless.py) can work. > > 2) Post to FreeBSD lists to announce your BT mirror when releases are > made. Mention why people might want to try it this way instead of > using ftp which they already understand and love. That IS exactly what I did, that is exactly why you are responding to me right now. This current email that I am writing is part of a thread that was started for this exact purpose. As you can see, this is very much like the chicken and the egg. Therefore, in order to get out of this cycle, other things need to be done. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 14:43:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0185437B4F2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1DB43F18 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:43:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0NMhW3J005649; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:43:37 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:43:31 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030123195807.GI60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20030123195807.GI60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 24 January 2003 06:58, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Is there a particular reason why there are no facilities to 'un' unli= nk a > > file in freebsd? (apart from the obvious reaon of - people shouldnt > > delete files that they want to keep)... > The filesystem isn't designed to allow it. What would need to be in the filesystem to allow it? Surely there is a si= mple=20 solution like a directory which could hold pointers to all 'un' linked fi= les?=20 (however i have never hacked a file system so I dont know these things). - jacob=20 Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 14:59:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C894F37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0564643F1E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:59:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18bqJX-00079v-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:59:15 -0800 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:59:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: JacobRhoden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recover overwritten file In-Reply-To: <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, JacobRhoden wrote: > What would need to be in the filesystem to allow it? Surely there is a simple > solution like a directory which could hold pointers to all 'un' linked files? > (however i have never hacked a file system so I dont know these things). And in the meanwhile, the data is overwritten because the filesystem was already told to reclaim all resources associated with that file. Some admins uses their own delete methods, like an "rm" replacement that moves the file to a garbage ("recycle bin") directory (which they could clean up manually or automatically later). There are other tools for attempting to recover files. Do some searches on google -- this has been discussed many, many times. Have a look at lazarus and unrm with The Coroner's Toolkit (TCT) http://www.fish.com/tct/ I have played with it before, but I just noticed it is not in the FreeBSD ports collection. It seems like I have seen other tools to attempt recovery of data too. The few times I have had to, I just did a dd of the partition to a new file (on a different partition). And then used less, grep, and dd again to find the data. Of course, that was with data I could easily find, like text documents. Which reminds me: I also wrote some routines to look for PNG, JPEG, and GIF headers and was successfully able to "undelete" several images. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 15: 0:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D206937B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF20B43F13 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0NN0X4L007302; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:00:33 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h0NN0XnX007301; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:00:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0NMwlaX006708; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:58:47 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200301232258.h0NMwlaX006708@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: JacobRhoden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recover overwritten file In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:43:31 +1100." <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:58:46 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What would need to be in the filesystem to allow it? Surely there is a simple > solution like a directory which could hold pointers to all 'un' linked files? > (however i have never hacked a file system so I dont know these things). There is. ;-) It is called a shell script, and you haven't written it yet. Replace rm(1) with 'mv $* ${BACKUPDIR}' and you have it. You will need to play with options to make it command-line compatible. The UFS does not have this facility. Un*x encourages foot-shooting. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 15: 4:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F5237B405 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D613043EB2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:04:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0NN4k3J007574; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:04:47 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: Mark Murray Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:04:46 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200301232258.h0NMwlaX006708@grimreaper.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200301232258.h0NMwlaX006708@grimreaper.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301241004.46881.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 24 January 2003 09:58, Mark Murray wrote: > > simple solution like a directory which could hold pointers to all 'un= ' > > linked files? (however i have never hacked a file system so I dont kn= ow > > these things). > It is called a shell script, and you haven't written it yet. Hrm, /me senses a new port/package idea coming along . . . there isnt one already is there? Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 16: 3:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DBC37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F20D543ED8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:03:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7C5799F13A; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:04:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:04:19 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Message-ID: <20030124000419.GC55456@rfc822.net> References: <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030123195807.GI60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 09:43:31AM +1100, JacobRhoden wrote: > On Friday 24 January 2003 06:58, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Is there a particular reason why there are no facilities to 'un' unlink a > > > file in freebsd? (apart from the obvious reaon of - people shouldnt > > > delete files that they want to keep)... > > > The filesystem isn't designed to allow it. > > What would need to be in the filesystem to allow it? Surely there is a simple > solution like a directory which could hold pointers to all 'un' linked files? > (however i have never hacked a file system so I dont know these things). > Wel, it's not strictly impossible, *if* you get the filesystem unmounted before anything else makes use of the inode, and it's a lot easier if the fs is relatively unfragmented. It's not one little bit simple, though, and requires one or more of: deep, deep understanding of ufs internals utter fearlessness with fsdb lots of optimism, patience, coffee, and the fsdb man page a hell of a lot of luck. I got my first paying sysadmin job by having undeleted a file on an AIX machine. I was working at a place that did telephone bill processing for independent phone companies around the US. One of our customers was doing destructive maintenance of some sort or other to their switch, and had uploaded the switch's toll data to us for safekeeping during the maintenance window. You can guess the rest of the story: a couple of fatfingers on their end and on our end, and the only copy of something like US$50,000 worth of toll records was nothing but a smudge on a hard drive. We told the customer what had happened, and our CEO had already agreed to compensate them, when I talked the sysadmin into letting me have the machine for the night. I copied the disk, got an extremely clued-up person from IBM on the phone, and we spent about four hours getting intimate with fsdb. I wish to hell I could remember her name, because she is responsible for my career in systems administration. Some days she deserves a Very Large Beer, and some days... not. :/ -Pete To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 16: 9:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9CD37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E6343F1E for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 20AAE9F13A; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:09:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:09:43 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Message-ID: <20030124000943.GE55456@rfc822.net> References: <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030123195807.GI60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030124000419.GC55456@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030124000419.GC55456@rfc822.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 06:04:19PM -0600, Pete Ehlke wrote: > > > Wel, it's not strictly impossible, *if* you get the filesystem unmounted > before anything else makes use of the inode, and it's a lot easier if Sigh. IM 'inodes', of course. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 16:34:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F20A37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.20.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06B643E4A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au) Received: from elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au (elkanah.its.unimelb.edu.au [128.250.18.41]) by ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h0O0YV3J014525 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:34:31 +1100 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: JacobRhoden Organization: University of Melbourne To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:34:31 +1100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <200301232258.h0NMwlaX006708@grimreaper.grondar.org> <200301241004.46881.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <200301241004.46881.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301241134.31376.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday 24 January 2003 10:04, JacobRhoden wrote: > Hrm, /me senses a new port/package idea coming along . . . > there isnt one already is there? Heres a thought, a modification to the 'rm' command, whereby if a certian= =20 environment variable was set (ie TRASH_DIRECTORY or something) then rm wo= uld=20 do a move instead of a unlink. A flag could be added to rm to force delet= e=20 (when the environment variable is being used)... what woudl be the chance= s of=20 something like that getting committed?=20 (ie i would be happy to write something like that, but I am not in the ha= bbit=20 of deleteing files accidentally so its not something i would write for=20 myself) Jacob Rhoden Phone: +61 3 8344 6102 ITS Division Email: jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au Melbourne University Mobile: +61 403 788 386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 18:15:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6E837B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2E043F3F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:15:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id h0O2FJZ15561; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:15:19 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200301241134.31376.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> References: <200301232258.h0NMwlaX006708@grimreaper.grondar.org> <200301241004.46881.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <200301241134.31376.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:14:40 +0100 To: JacobRhoden From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:34 AM +1100 2003/01/24, JacobRhoden wrote: > Heres a thought, a modification to the 'rm' command, whereby if a certian > environment variable was set (ie TRASH_DIRECTORY or something) then rm would > do a move instead of a unlink. A flag could be added to rm to force delete > (when the environment variable is being used)... what woudl be the chances of > something like that getting committed? The problem comes in the details. I wrote a shell script like this many, many years ago (1986?). However, what do you do when you get two files with the same name? And how do you properly un-rm them -- how do you know where to restore the file to? One idea would be to check things into CVS, but then what do you do about binaries? How do you deal with massive recursive removals? Myself, I found that the biggest problem was that this doesn't solve the whole problem -- sure, I could cover rm, but that didn't help me when I mv'ed one file onto another, and I lost two weeks worth of work on a class project. When I protected both mv and rm, that didn't help me when I accidentally redirected the output of a program onto a file I had wanted to keep. Basically, I got used to having these around these crutches, and then I really seriously hurt myself when they suddenly didn't provide coverage for the specific type of foot-shooting that I was engaging in. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 18:23:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3DE37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0955443E4A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0463.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.208] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18btUQ-0002lZ-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:22:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3E30A31F.59DE067B@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:21:19 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hunter Peress Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 References: <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ac06470c581d13d6557b5bed77636beb548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hunter Peress wrote: > On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 13:57, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > 2) Post to FreeBSD lists to announce your BT mirror when releases are > > made. Mention why people might want to try it this way instead of > > using ftp which they already understand and love. > > That IS exactly what I did, that is exactly why you are responding to > me right now. This current email that I am writing is part of a thread > that was started for this exact purpose. > > As you can see, this is very much like the chicken and the egg. > Therefore, in order to get out of this cycle, other things need to be > done. 1) Add support for it to "fetch" 2) Add support for it to "sysinstall" 3) Add support for it to "pkg_add" 4) Make the data these programs operate against available on your "bit torrent" server somewhere (e.g. "bt.freebsd.org"). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 18:47: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282D137B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-48.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A3243E4A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52BE066E3D; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 32652165C; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:46:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:46:57 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: JacobRhoden Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recover overwritten file Message-ID: <20030124024657.GB61509@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <200301231600.52211.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <20030123195807.GI60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200301240943.31823.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 09:43:31AM +1100, JacobRhoden wrote: > On Friday 24 January 2003 06:58, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Is there a particular reason why there are no facilities to 'un' unli= nk a > > > file in freebsd? (apart from the obvious reaon of - people shouldnt > > > delete files that they want to keep)... >=20 > > The filesystem isn't designed to allow it. >=20 > What would need to be in the filesystem to allow it? Surely there is a si= mple=20 > solution like a directory which could hold pointers to all 'un' linked fi= les?=20 > (however i have never hacked a file system so I dont know these things). There are probably a number of possibilities. Kris --rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+MKkgWry0BWjoQKURAkDaAJwIhDceWim9HslEeHje4BAuFY4qugCgszir gkDwXEwJjZ0rJf0Glr9kSe0= =hTLK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 18:51:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F89637B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-48.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F89843ED8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCE266B3A; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3BCF21656; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:37 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Hunter Peress Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 Message-ID: <20030124025137.GA61607@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030123195701.GH60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 12:20:01PM -0800, Hunter Peress wrote: > > Steps to getting the community to use this: > >=20 > > 1) Make a working port. I tried to port bittorrent once, but > > something (don't remember what) failed to compile. > BT is in python and hence requires no compilation. MAYBE you are talking = about > wxpython, which requires wxwindows and that might be where your error was. I don't recall, other than that I was following the included build instructions. > > 2) Post to FreeBSD lists to announce your BT mirror when releases are > > made. Mention why people might want to try it this way instead of > > using ftp which they already understand and love. >=20 > That IS exactly what I did, that is exactly why you are responding to me = right now. > This current email that I am writing is part of a thread that was started= for this > exact purpose. You omitted step 1, which is needed before you'll get any significant community buy-in (only the most dedicated people are going to manually download and build it on their own). Also, -chat is not really the best list for this..for example, it would be on-topic for -stable or -current and you'd reach your target audience there. Kris --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+MKo4Wry0BWjoQKURAvzLAJ9bYGy1GVNNQ7B/t888BTalNRAlmACg5adB jUwuichA3UBNNA0RIi+GU9k= =eAk+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 19:25:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E90637B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:25:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512E143F13 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:25:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@employees.org) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org (12-240-204-110.client.attbi.com[12.240.204.110]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <2003012403254000300062tle>; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:25:40 +0000 Received: from intruder.bmah.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h0O3PdRG037061; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:25:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.bmah.org) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by intruder.bmah.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h0O3PcoT037060; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:25:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200301240325.h0O3PcoT037060@intruder.bmah.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5+ 20021120 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Hunter Peress , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 In-Reply-To: <20030124025137.GA61607@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030123195701.GH60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030124025137.GA61607@rot13.obsecurity.org> Comments: In-reply-to Kris Kennaway message dated "Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:37 -0800." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Reply-To: bmah@FreeBSD.ORG X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_1113335330P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:25:38 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_1113335330P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Kris Kennaway wrote: > You omitted step 1, which is needed before you'll get any significant > community buy-in (only the most dedicated people are going to manually > download and build it on their own). Yes. Or bribe someone else to get it to compile/install/whatever and then make a port of it, especially if it (or some dependency) needs a patch to run on FreeBSD. > Also, -chat is not really the > best list for this..for example, it would be on-topic for -stable or > -current and you'd reach your target audience there. I pointed Hunter to current@ and chat@ originally. He did post to current@, and there was some discussion there. I also thought of hackers@ (it's off-topic, but no more so than a bunch of other posts I've seen there). Bruce. --==_Exmh_1113335330P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE+MLIy2MoxcVugUsMRAsnmAKC1dSFHnQ1Ltztcxko6Ctyp0z/DZQCgyjRQ LSzFL12kWu13rhG5Drc6rIY= =N/Dk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_1113335330P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 19:41:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4937F37B405; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-106-48.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.106.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61B843F1E; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B9F66B3A; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E20A3160B; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:41:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:41:30 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Kris Kennaway , Hunter Peress , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BitTorrent Mirror of 5.0 Message-ID: <20030124034130.GA62225@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <20030123195701.GH60077@rot13.obsecurity.org> <20030123202001.51397.qmail@web41306.mail.yahoo.com> <20030124025137.GA61607@rot13.obsecurity.org> <200301240325.h0O3PcoT037060@intruder.bmah.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200301240325.h0O3PcoT037060@intruder.bmah.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 07:25:38PM -0800, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > Also, -chat is not really the > > best list for this..for example, it would be on-topic for -stable or > > -current and you'd reach your target audience there. >=20 > I pointed Hunter to current@ and chat@ originally. He did post to > current@, and there was some discussion there. Oops, I didn't notice this. Kris --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+MLXqWry0BWjoQKURAuogAKCsgArxylf8qTeekixU8fLTzTzN5ACgqjN/ DBcINidxxzNDt6RxQt8zKyM= =fyRU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 19:49:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0D037B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms3.quadtelecom.com (ms3.quadtelecom.com [66.45.116.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8551043EB2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:49:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from htabak@quadtelecom.com) Received: (qmail 99491 invoked from network); 24 Jan 2003 03:49:33 -0000 Received: from anna1.quadtelecom.com (HELO quadtelecom.com) (192.168.1.28) by ms1.quadtelecom.com with SMTP; 24 Jan 2003 03:49:33 -0000 Message-ID: <3E30B7AA.7000008@quadtelecom.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:48:58 -0500 From: Harry Tabak Organization: Quad Telecom, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" Subject: Re: Lawyers to be sicked on *BSD? References: <0gvg0gn1o4.g0g@localhost.localdomain> <3E2F3BE6.A8FEEFA5@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wonder if the SCO Group has done its homework. *BSD and SVR* are hopelessly entangled. The original code for BSD came from AT&T, and AT&T/USL versions were at least 50% UCB developed. In 1994, UCB and USL settled a nasty lawsuit which resulted in an unencumbered 4.4 BSD-Lite Release. The settlment requires that certain files in BSD-Lite include a USL copyright notice and certain USL files to include UCB credits. See for more info. I believe that all USL files in *BSD and Linux are derived from that unencumbered BSD-Lite release, and are therefore properly "licensed". Or have people gotten careless? I think that SCO is trying to make money on FUD. Harry Tabak Terry Lambert wrote: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > >>I found this via Slashdot "story", so .... >> >>The CEO of some company is being quoted as saying: >> >> "To us, it's not an issue of: Is Linux violating (SCO intellectual >> property)? It's an issue of: Is anybody violating it?" >> >>and >> >> "If you pull down (Mac) OS X you'll see a lot of copyright postings >> that point back to Unix Systems Laboratories, which is what we hold." > > > > They already settled this with BSDI and UCB back in the 1990's. > > Now it's Linux' turn. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 20:46:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB6137B4F7 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C283043E4A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0155.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.155] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18bviu-000797-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:45:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3E30C49B.51D10FAC@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:44:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harry Tabak Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "Gary W. Swearingen" Subject: Re: Lawyers to be sicked on *BSD? References: <0gvg0gn1o4.g0g@localhost.localdomain> <3E2F3BE6.A8FEEFA5@mindspring.com> <3E30B7AA.7000008@quadtelecom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a44eec947abef883f3b6caa79f15286283a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Harry Tabak wrote: > I wonder if the SCO Group has done its homework. *BSD and SVR* are > hopelessly entangled. The original code for BSD came from AT&T, and > AT&T/USL versions were at least 50% UCB developed. In 1994, UCB and USL > settled a nasty lawsuit which resulted in an unencumbered 4.4 BSD-Lite > Release. The settlment requires that certain files in BSD-Lite include a > USL copyright notice and certain USL files to include UCB credits. > > See for more info. > > I believe that all USL files in *BSD and Linux are derived from that > unencumbered BSD-Lite release, and are therefore properly "licensed". Or > have people gotten careless? I think that SCO is trying to make money > on FUD. Speaking of FUD... The thing that touched this off was SCO announcing that they would be licensing intellectual property, and retaining a rather famous lawer, whose name is "Boies". The reason they retained him was to obtain advice on licensing the "System V on Linux" code; basically, IBCS2 and other binary pieces needed for running System V programs under Linux, including the shared libraries. FWIW, the UCB/USL lawsuit, which was primarily a result of BSDI hiding behind UCB after yelling "Due Dilligence!", after pissing off the AT&T lawyers into "anticompetitive mode" through their illegal use of the UNIX trademark, had as one of its settlement stipulations that there would be no future actions filed against BSD 4.4-Lite derived code bases. Like FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So this tempest is meaningless on BSD mailing lists, no matter what. Also, FWIW, there area number of Novell patents which were non-exclusively licensed to USL, and thereby to SCO, that at least one Linux FS is substantially infringing. BSD got around those by implementing full soft updates, instead, which are not covered by the patents. In any case, it would be Novell, not USL (now SCO) who would have to enforce the patents, since the license was non-exclusive. Even so, the settlement stipulation for BSD 4.4-Lite derived code may in fact act as a blanket patent license. In any case, I'm sure that all the Open Source projects are substantially infringing any number of patents (though not as a result of code that I wrote, if I could help it). As one example, SQUID infringes on no less than 5 IBM patents, which is why we were required to not ship it as part of the software on the Whistle InterJet, after IBM acquired Whistle, to avoid granting a blanket license to use those 5 IBM patents, under terms of GPL'ed distribution granting perpetual rights without fee, and the requirement that licensing be on parity terms, in order for IBM to be allowed to bid on Federal Goverment contracts (effectively, if you charge on person $0, you have to charge every person nor more than $0). In any case, it's unlikely anyone wants to push such a case, since to do so risks binding case law... which is why no such case has ever been taken to the appellate level, so far, and is one of the main reasons (IMO) that the USL/UCB suit was settled. I'm actually still angry about there being a settlement in that case: UCB had a strong case, and DMR was willing to testify that there were no USL trade secrets embodied in the code, and MIT was willing to put their patent portfolio behind the case, and back it with $, at one point (try to prove that UNIX is not infringing at least one MIT patent... 8-)). I rather expect that if anyone really pursued something like this to the apellate level, we'd find software patents being at risk of being declared invalid altogether. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 23:14:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1329337B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (nexus.xs4all.nl [213.84.207.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0123A43E4A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@nexus.ninth-circle.org) Received: by 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4C510336; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:14:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:14:22 +0100 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai To: Terry Lambert Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030124071422.GK67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B9C4C.8626D11C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E2B9C4C.8626D11C@mindspring.com> Organisation: Ninth Circle Enterprises User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry, -On [20030119 22:53], Terry Lambert (tlambert2@mindspring.com) wrote: >JacobRhoden wrote: >> Just a thought, but considering that TenDRA compiles to an intermediatory >> 'platform independant' stage (ie like java) would it be wise to write an >> operating system in this language? for a start, i could imagine that it would >> always take longer to compile. and I guess (has someone already said this) >> that you could not use in-line asm in such a language (or am i wrong?). > >TenDRA is a "quad" compiler; it compiles to a quad tree, and then >you post-process that into a particular assembly language using a >back-end. You are talking nonesense. Please get your facts straight before actually throwing forth what you consider to be the truth in that imaginative little head of yours. Please see http://www.tendra.org/ and everything underneath it in terms of documentation and facts. Furthermore, to quiet some other speculation and such on this topic: TenDRA is BSD Licensed, we're actively working together with some committers to get gcc-dependencies fixed in the source tree (on another note, we also periodically test apps: http://www.tendra.org/~asmodai/compiled-apps.txt). -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ Whenever I associate with someone, may I think myself the lowest among all and hold the other supreme in the depth of my heart... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 23:35: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B646237B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from prometheus.home.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6A543EB2 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@phoenix.home.laserfence.net) Received: from phoenix.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.2]) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18byMI-0001W5-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:34:38 +0200 Received: from will by phoenix.home.laserfence.net with local (Exim 4.10) id 18byMG-0001SF-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:34:36 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Willie Viljoen Organization: Highveld Computing Solutions To: mikel king Subject: Re: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:34:36 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <3E309AA0.3020705@ocsny.com> In-Reply-To: <3E309AA0.3020705@ocsny.com> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301240934.36578.will@highveldcs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Here's a thought what about the intellectual property that the've enjoy > at the expense of all of the BSD's? What would happen if the BSD world > recinded the rights to TCP/IP and demanded compensation for it's use > from say everyone? Mike, the rights to IP itself are with DARPA, so we couldn't recind it, b= ut,=20 UCB designed the origional UNIX IP stack (which could be installed as a=20 supliment to AT&T UNIX as part of the patch set then known as BSD). If we= =20 recinded that, even MS would have to pay up for including the code in Win= dows=20 2000. Ofcourse, nice thought as it may be, we are far too nice to do that. The = BSD=20 community has always taken pride in beating out the compettition with=20 overwhelmingly superior technology. Sueing all your compettitors is a=20 kindergarten business tactic only employed by companies who rely on old,=20 proprietary technology that nobody wants anymore, and are making huge los= ses=20 still trying to sell that old technology. IMHO, the money SCO would be=20 spending on trying to sue every UNIX-like OS developer in the world would= be=20 better spent on developing a product we actually want. Developing products we want has not been their strong point in the past. = SCO=20 Unixware (the origional SCO, The Santa Cruz Operation) was rather handy, = this=20 is ofcourse not the SCO we are dealing with today, ie, what used to be=20 Caldera. I don't think I know one person who ever willingly used Caldera=20 Linux, or anybody who actually bothered to buy their proprietary CDE desk= top=20 environment. Why would we want to? We could download a free ISO with the = same=20 thing, and having the same level of sickening userfriendlyness, from Red = Hat =20 I wouldn't be caught dead using RH, still, it's handy for making a point. Still, from the new SCO's point of view, that's probably a bad business p= lan,=20 ie, making money the honest way. Why eat into McBride's salary to spend l= ots=20 of money, and lots of time, researching new technology, when they can jus= t=20 spend their shareholders' money quickly and sue everyone into paying them= =20 "royaltees" for what might be their intilectual property, but most certai= nly=20 is not their work. From a BMW-driver's perspective, it's a brilliant busi= ness=20 model, apart from a legal team, you need no employees at all. That works just wonderfully for management. They don't like engineers=20 remember, most engineers are smarter than most management, management don= 't=20 like employees that don't think their manager is an all knowing all seein= g=20 entity of universal power which has the final authority on everything. If= =20 managers had their way, they'd be regulating when we are allowed to relie= ve=20 ourselves. Just think about seeing this on your office wall: "Employees w= ill=20 not use company sanitation facilities more than once a day. Failure to co= mply=20 will result in manegarial centure of the employee, and complete revocatio= n of=20 sanitation facility privilages." Back to the point, I can't see how this will go very far. Simply looking = at=20 Boies' track record, in the words of a slashdot poster who's name has sli= pped=20 my mind, but credit where it's due: "Boies is living proof that high prof= ile=20 failures will do more for your career than low profile successes." The only thing that could possibly be acumplished by SCO is a new line of= =20 Microsoft anti-UNIX (and specifically anti-Linux) propaganda. Just when t= hey=20 stopped calling it a cancer, and started to rather attempt to bring out t= he=20 advantages to Windows (if there are truly such things). Now, I'm just wai= ting=20 for TV adds saying: "Microsoft's software is 100% origional, we guarantee= no=20 problems with copyright liability." This doesn't cover the thousands of l= ines=20 of code, which rumours say, were procured by less than honerable means, o= r=20 the practice of seeing a good product, buying out the creator for a huge=20 ammount, and then marketing the product as their own. Ofcourse, I wouldn'= t=20 want to be caught spreading rumours about them, they might sue me, oh hec= k,=20 I've used some of their privately owned words in my e-mail, oh my, they m= ight=20 sue me.... Let's just all remember where the only good product they ever=20 sold, MS-DOS, really came from. Yet again, I deviate from the topic. To get back to the issue at hand, I = want=20 to alude briefly to a sugestion that's popped up in a few strange places.= =20 That being, the open source community setting up a consortium (if we get=20 thousands of people to donate, it's not that expensive is it?) and simply= =20 putting SCO/Caldera out of its misery by a hostile takeover. It's a nasty= =20 tactic generally employed by evil MonopoliStic types, but in this case, i= t=20 would let duped shareholders get back some of their money, and give the n= ew=20 board, elected by the new shareholders, us, the right to wave all their=20 intilectual property rights, and maybe use the company's employees and=20 resources for something nice, like say, research. Anyone for SCO stock? Now, as all management think we should be doing, I'll add a standard=20 disclaimer to my e-mail. Almost all of this is just my own personal ranti= ngs.=20 If you take this letter seriously, your are stupid. The content of this=20 message is not neciserally the view of all engineers, most of us just lov= e=20 management, really. This message is posted in the hope of promoting=20 histerical laughter with all readers, if you did not find it funny, or fe= el=20 offended by anything I have posted, I would like to express my sincerest=20 apologies that the terrible genetic imbalance responsible for your inabil= ity=20 to process humor has so profoundly affected you and would like to advise = you=20 that medication is available for this condition. There we go, I've gotten everybody's two cents worth, that'll do for the = day.=20 If you would like more nonsensical ranting and random abuse hurled at lar= ge=20 corporations, please contact will@highveldcs.com, I am always available f= or=20 unfriendly comments. Will --=20 Willie Viljoen IT Solutions Consultant Highveld Computing Solutions 214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60 +27 51 522 44 36 (after hours) +27 82 404 03 27 (mobile) will@highveldcs.com Be ahead of the pack, visit http://www.highveldcs.com/ and find out how o= ur=20 next generation IT solutions will propel your business into the 21st cent= ury. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 23 23:52: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A185C37B401 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE29143ED8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0155.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.155] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18byd2-0001BX-00; Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:51:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3E30EF41.D4E26A23@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:46:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B9C4C.8626D11C@mindspring.com> <20030124071422.GK67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40ff06cf641a209f6da6e162ae1bdd2a0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > >TenDRA is a "quad" compiler; it compiles to a quad tree, and then > >you post-process that into a particular assembly language using a > >back-end. > > You are talking nonesense. Please get your facts straight before > actually throwing forth what you consider to be the truth in that > imaginative little head of yours. > > Please see http://www.tendra.org/ and everything underneath it in terms > of documentation and facts. OK... The C++ producer internally compiles to TDF, which is a variant of [X]ANDF, according to the documentation, which, if you look at the definitions in the Aho "Compiler Design" book qualifies as compiling to a quad tree as an intermediate. From my knowledge of [X]ANDF, starting in the late 1980's, and not contradicted by the TDF (and the TDF guide claims that any place it contradicts the specification, it is wrong and the specification is right), the TDF installer is what post-processes the TDF output from the front end into the local assembly language. So what is it you were objecting to, exactly? Me calling the intermediate format by it's generic technical name, instead of the brand specific name of "TDF"? My point was only that it's possible to "tunnel" information, like "asm" statements, should you wish to extend the compiler to support them, through to the back end converter... it's not "impossible", which was what was being claimed. > Furthermore, to quiet some other speculation and such on this topic: > TenDRA is BSD Licensed, we're actively working together with some > committers to get gcc-dependencies fixed in the source tree (on another > note, we also periodically test apps: > http://www.tendra.org/~asmodai/compiled-apps.txt). We've heard Brett Glass rail on it long enough that we know the license is acceptable, even if the code generation and optimizer are not really very adequate. I think the major issues, as far as "C" is concerned, are the GCC-ism's, like auto array declarations using an index that was a parameter to the function, which still occurs one place in the FreeBSD kernel, and the inability to support "Linker sets", per se, in order to support SYSINIT() type constructs, without the ability to support inline assembly code -- and supporting the inline assembly code, itself. From what I was able to see in the published documentation on the site, there is still no support for inline assembly. I was unable to get an answer, one way or another, whether the code currently supports "long long", or not, either. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 10: 4:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AD137B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F19043F3F for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:04:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with ESMTP id <200301241804460030008626e>; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:04:46 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h0OI2pm9084719; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:02:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h0OI2jE7084716; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:02:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lawyers to be sicked on *BSD? References: <0gvg0gn1o4.g0g@localhost.localdomain> <3E2F3BE6.A8FEEFA5@mindspring.com> <3E30B7AA.7000008@quadtelecom.com> <3E30C49B.51D10FAC@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 24 Jan 2003 10:02:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E30C49B.51D10FAC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The reason they retained him was to obtain advice on licensing the > "System V on Linux" code; basically, IBCS2 and other binary pieces > needed for running System V programs under Linux, including the > shared libraries. Too bad that news reporters don't know enough about what they're covering to get to the heart of the matter like that. (Of course, they tend to benefit from getting things wrong.) (I realize this FUD should not be taken too seriously; I'm just chatting (or is it "chattering"?).) Are the "Sys V" issues about licensing copyrights or patents or both? I still wonder why the CEO mentions the code in OS/X with USL copyrights. He wan't talking about IBCS2 code, was he? Or maybe he was; I see /usr/src/sys/i386/ibcs2/ here in FreeBSD. IBCS2 wasn't in the UCB/USL settlement, was it? To add to the FUD, I'll note that we are trusting UCB & BSDi in knowing the legal status of the codebase. Only they know the terms of the secret settlement which USL thinks is "excellent" because it "preserves USL's legitimate interest in protecting its intellectual property". Like whether it covers patents or only copyrights and even whether it protects anyone but UCB & BSDi. We have only their press releases (which don't explicitly mention patents) and we have the copyright "licenses" of unprovable origin attached to the suspect code. But I'm not worried; UCB should be trustworthy and, anyway, OS/X is the only BSD-family OS who's got much to worry about because the others don't have anyone associated with them worth the costs of putting a legal squeeze on. I read that "BSD 4.4-Lite derived code bases" have nothing to worry about. (Let's assume the settlement says that.) Isn't the Linux kernel derived from BSD 4.4-Lite? There was never much BSD code involved and maybe none by now, but it's still a derivative. FreeBSD is "more" of a derivative, but much less than it was in 1995. Is OS/X 4.4-Lite-derived? How much derivation is needed to satisfy the terms of the secret settlement? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 10:19:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA1D37B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C17E43F43 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h0OIJRIF033096 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:19:27 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: RE: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:19:20 +0100 Message-ID: <00ee01c2c3d5$1e1a84e0$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200301240934.36578.will@highveldcs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Here's a thought what about the intellectual property that > the've enjoy > > at the expense of all of the BSD's? What would happen if > the BSD world > > recinded the rights to TCP/IP and demanded compensation for it's use > > from say everyone? > > Mike, the rights to IP itself are with DARPA, so we couldn't > recind it, but, > UCB designed the origional UNIX IP stack (which could be > installed as a > supliment to AT&T UNIX as part of the patch set then known as > BSD). If we > recinded that, even MS would have to pay up for including the > code in Windows > 2000. Microsoft pay for infringing on someone else's IP rights? Wouldn't they just try to use standard FUD and SS tactics along with a long and drawn out case that will make everyone throw in the towel? Or, would they re-design their OS with a TCP/IP stack that implemented new features, was prone to attacks and, if you wanted to view any information on the API, you would have to answer yes to a license during the installation of a PDF that was packaged in .EXE form that forbid you of talking about what you saw in the specification to others who didn't agree to the license too??? (sorry, an attempt at humor) > > Still, from the new SCO's point of view, that's probably a > bad business plan, > ie, making money the honest way. Why eat into McBride's > salary to spend lots > of money, and lots of time, researching new technology, when > they can just > spend their shareholders' money quickly and sue everyone into > paying them > "royaltees" for what might be their intilectual property, but > most certainly > is not their work. From a BMW-driver's perspective, it's a > brilliant business > model, apart from a legal team, you need no employees at all. > > That works just wonderfully for management. They don't like engineers > remember, most engineers are smarter than most management, > management don't > like employees that don't think their manager is an all > knowing all seeing > entity of universal power which has the final authority on > everything. If > managers had their way, they'd be regulating when we are > allowed to relieve > ourselves. Just think about seeing this on your office wall: > "Employees will > not use company sanitation facilities more than once a day. > Failure to comply > will result in manegarial centure of the employee, and > complete revocation of > sanitation facility privilages." > Isn't this called Scientific Management? (Or Fordism).. Where every little detail of employees lives are controlled to the point that they don't have to think for themselves? Hmmm, kinda sounds like a certain OS/Application developer that we all know and love, don't it? (Substitute employee for user in the first sentence) Oh well, just a thought.. > Now, as all management think we should be doing, I'll add a standard > disclaimer to my e-mail. Almost all of this is just my own > personal rantings. > If you take this letter seriously, your are stupid. The > content of this > message is not neciserally the view of all engineers, most of > us just love > management, really. This message is posted in the hope of promoting > histerical laughter with all readers, if you did not find it > funny, or feel > offended by anything I have posted, I would like to express > my sincerest > apologies that the terrible genetic imbalance responsible for > your inability > to process humor has so profoundly affected you and would > like to advise you > that medication is available for this condition. > Too late, management is drafting a policy as we speak to censure you.... :) > There we go, I've gotten everybody's two cents worth, that'll > do for the day. > If you would like more nonsensical ranting and random abuse > hurled at large > corporations, please contact will@highveldcs.com, I am always > available for > unfriendly comments. > > Will Hmm, if we take the two cents that you throw in, add my dime, we can use it as a starting point for the collection to overthrow the "new" SCO... And if we keep all donations to monetary denominations like pennies and nickles and dimes, we could literally bury them during the takeover... Hmmmm........ :) > -- > Willie Viljoen > IT Solutions Consultant > > Highveld Computing Solutions > 214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas > Bloemfontein > 9321 > South Africa > > +27 51 522 15 60 > +27 51 522 44 36 (after hours) > +27 82 404 03 27 (mobile) > > will@highveldcs.com > > Be ahead of the pack, visit http://www.highveldcs.com/ and > find out how our > next generation IT solutions will propel your business into > the 21st century. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 11:45:41 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABB637B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41308.mail.yahoo.com (web41308.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A9F3C43F18 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hfastjava@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030124194539.50663.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.175.34.45] by web41308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:45:39 PST Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 11:45:39 -0800 (PST) From: Hunter Peress Subject: FreeBSD port of BitTorrent is done. Help test To: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Cc: bMAH@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey. So all this attention from the list has seen a FreeBSD user make a port. This is his first freeBSD package (yay for 2 causes!). We've been communicating on IRC, and he would like for some of you kind folks to test the package before its submitted for inclusion into the actual BSD tree. http://www.thiago.joi.com.br/andre/bittorrent.html Basically, all that is required to minimally get things running is that you have python2.2 available in your ports tree. (for X GUI u'll need wxpython2.3 for python2.2 (which the package DOESNT require), but there are still 2 nice command line interfaces: btdownloadheadless.py, and btdownloadcurses.py). Again, feel free to bombard this freeBSD5.0 torrent with your bandwidth as a test after you test out the port at http://tacos.sus.mcgill.ca/~hperes/BT_BSD5.0/. Andre is the porter: andre@netvision.com.br Join us on irc for any more questions about BitTorrent : irc.freenode.net #bittorrent __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 14: 4:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D23137B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0B243E4A for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0212.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.212] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18cBvt-00020F-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:04:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3E31B80F.E08E135@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:02:55 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stacy Olivas Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) References: <00ee01c2c3d5$1e1a84e0$0502000a@sentinel> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43ca96688f290776a3287aa1b3552b179350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > Here's a thought what about the intellectual property that > > > the've enjoy at the expense of all of the BSD's? What would > > > happen if the BSD world recinded the rights to TCP/IP and > > > demanded compensation for it's use from say everyone? > > > > Mike, the rights to IP itself are with DARPA, so we couldn't > > recind it, but, UCB designed the origional UNIX IP stack (which > > could be installed as a supliment to AT&T UNIX as part of the > > patch set then known as BSD). If we recinded that, even MS > > would have to pay up for including the code in Windows 2000. > > Microsoft pay for infringing on someone else's IP rights? Microsoft is not "infringing". The standard license grant is "in perpetuity". Even if it wasn't, Microsoft paid for the port of the BSD code by BSD people (rumor has it that they paid $3M for it). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 18:40:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A285D37B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (nexus.xs4all.nl [213.84.207.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D61D43E4A for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@nexus.ninth-circle.org) Received: by 213-84-207-11.adsl.xs4all.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29B43BA; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:40:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:40:00 +0100 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai To: Terry Lambert Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) Message-ID: <20030125023959.GO67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B9C4C.8626D11C@mindspring.com> <20030124071422.GK67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> <3E30EF41.D4E26A23@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E30EF41.D4E26A23@mindspring.com> Organisation: Ninth Circle Enterprises User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20030124 11:25], Terry Lambert (tlambert2@mindspring.com) wrote: >Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: >OK... The C++ producer internally compiles to TDF, which is a >variant of [X]ANDF, according to the documentation, which, if >you look at the definitions in the Aho "Compiler Design" book >qualifies as compiling to a quad tree as an intermediate. By your reasoning, salt may "qualify" as sugar, but don't be surprised if people refuse to eat what you cook. >So what is it you were objecting to, exactly? Me calling the >intermediate format by it's generic technical name, instead of >the brand specific name of "TDF"? You abusing terms for non-correct explanations. >My point was only that it's possible to "tunnel" information, >like "asm" statements, should you wish to extend the compiler >to support them, through to the back end converter... it's >not "impossible", which was what was being claimed. Doing inline assembly in something like TenDRA is not impossible, but it requires good thought how you will deal with it. Personally I still find seperate .s files combined with .c/.h files the best. >> Furthermore, to quiet some other speculation and such on this topic: >> TenDRA is BSD Licensed, we're actively working together with some >> committers to get gcc-dependencies fixed in the source tree (on another >> note, we also periodically test apps: >> http://www.tendra.org/~asmodai/compiled-apps.txt). > >We've heard Brett Glass rail on it long enough that we know the >license is acceptable, even if the code generation and optimizer >are not really very adequate. What part of BSDL was not apparent on the website's frontpage or my text above? The DERA [Qinetiq] folks were kind enough to explain their Crown license is a BSDL-like license and had no objections to use putting it under BSDL for the new work. So, if the BSDL/Crown duality, for now, is not acceptable as a license I wonder what would be within the scope of the FreeBSD Project. So I fail to see the relevence of the above comment to Brett. >I think the major issues, as far as "C" is concerned, are the >GCC-ism's, like auto array declarations using an index that was >a parameter to the function, which still occurs one place in the >FreeBSD kernel, and the inability to support "Linker sets", per >se, in order to support SYSINIT() type constructs, without the >ability to support inline assembly code -- and supporting the >inline assembly code, itself. Correct, FreeBSD depends heavily on gcc abuses/extensions of the C language, such as __attribute__(()), #warning, and so on. >>From what I was able to see in the published documentation on >the site, there is still no support for inline assembly. I was >unable to get an answer, one way or another, whether the code >currently supports "long long", or not, either. It has supported long long since 4.1.2 which was released in 1998. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / asmodai / Kita no Mono Ninth Circle Enterprises | WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.anti-dmca.org/ Man is the Dream of the dolphin... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 20: 6:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5436537B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D3043F13 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18cHa1-00080e-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:06:05 -0800 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:06:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) In-Reply-To: <20030125023959.GO67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > What part of BSDL was not apparent on the website's frontpage or my text > above? The DERA [Qinetiq] folks were kind enough to explain their Crown We already know! That is (the main reason) why we want TenDRA :) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 20:14:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8072637B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CB543F18 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11AE3D27; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 23:14:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Terry Lambert Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 23:14:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3E31C8B9.13708.600FE72D@localhost> In-reply-to: <3E31B80F.E08E135@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 24 Jan 2003 at 14:02, Terry Lambert wrote: > Even if it wasn't, Microsoft paid for the port of the BSD code by BSD > people (rumor has it that they paid $3M for it). Does the above mean that MS hired BSD people to port the code to the MS platform? -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 20:52:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DA937B401; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net [203.16.214.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7942A43EB2; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 20:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp177.sa.padsl.internode.on.net [150.101.244.176]) by smtp0.adl1.internode.on.net (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h0P4qZCq015190; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:22:40 +1030 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) id h0P4qINY062296; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:22:18 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.2/8.12.2av) with ESMTP id h0P4q9tJ062284; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:22:13 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: FreeBSD port of BitTorrent is done. Help test From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Hunter Peress Cc: chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, bMAH@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030124194539.50663.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030124194539.50663.qmail@web41308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1043470327.85148.153.camel@chowder.dons.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 25 Jan 2003 15:22:08 +1030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.6 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 06:15, Hunter Peress wrote: > http://www.thiago.joi.com.br/andre/bittorrent.html > > Basically, all that is required to minimally get things running is that you have > python2.2 available in your ports tree. (for X GUI u'll need wxpython2.3 for > python2.2 (which the package DOESNT require), but there are still 2 nice command > line interfaces: btdownloadheadless.py, and btdownloadcurses.py). A few suggestions.. - Install the executables without the .py extension - Dynamically generate pkg-message and substitute PREFIX Also, the curses version bails with.. Traceback (most recent call last):----------------------------------------------------------- File "/usr/local/bin/btdownloadcurses.py", line 167, in ? run(argv[1:]) File "/usr/local/bin/btdownloadcurses.py", line 115, in run download(params, d.chooseFile, d.display, d.finished, d.error, Event(), fieldw) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.2/site-packages/BitTorrent/download.py", line 88, in download errorfunc('arguments are -\n' + formatDefinitions(defaults, cols)) File "/usr/local/bin/btdownloadcurses.py", line 67, in error self.display() File "/usr/local/bin/btdownloadcurses.py", line 98, in display fieldwin.addstr(7 + i, 0, self.errors[i], curses.A_BOLD) _curses.error: addstr() returned ERR ________________________________________________________________________ -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 22:37:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 983E637B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1184543EB2 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0082.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.82] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18cJvU-0002wq-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:36:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3E323009.CE3311AE@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:34:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai Cc: JacobRhoden , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GCC as a selling point for FreeBSD? (Not!) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030119130825.00b21ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030119133833.00e422f0@localhost> <200301201620.37863.jrhoden@unimelb.edu.au> <3E2B9C4C.8626D11C@mindspring.com> <20030124071422.GK67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> <3E30EF41.D4E26A23@mindspring.com> <20030125023959.GO67360@nexus.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a484522d56ce6744c552f2d8ae5b996d92387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai wrote: > >> Furthermore, to quiet some other speculation and such on this topic: > >> TenDRA is BSD Licensed, we're actively working together with some > >> committers to get gcc-dependencies fixed in the source tree (on another > >> note, we also periodically test apps: > >> http://www.tendra.org/~asmodai/compiled-apps.txt). > > > >We've heard Brett Glass rail on it long enough that we know the > >license is acceptable, even if the code generation and optimizer > >are not really very adequate. > > What part of BSDL was not apparent on the website's frontpage or my text > above? The implication that it was my speculation about the license that you were attempting to forestall. If you look over my history of postings on the topic of GCC and getting out from under the GPL in the toolchain, should anyone want to, when the topic comes up, I *universally* reccomend TenDRA as the starting point. > The DERA [Qinetiq] folks were kind enough to explain their Crown > license is a BSDL-like license and had no objections to use putting it > under BSDL for the new work. So, if the BSDL/Crown duality, for now, is > not acceptable as a license I wonder what would be within the scope of > the FreeBSD Project. So I fail to see the relevence of the above > comment to Brett. You, not I, brought up the issues of license. By bringing up the issue of license in the context of a thread on GCC in which Brett has participated, you effectively reference Brett. Just whose license arguement were you trying to forestall? > >I think the major issues, as far as "C" is concerned, are the > >GCC-ism's, like auto array declarations using an index that was > >a parameter to the function, which still occurs one place in the > >FreeBSD kernel, and the inability to support "Linker sets", per > >se, in order to support SYSINIT() type constructs, without the > >ability to support inline assembly code -- and supporting the > >inline assembly code, itself. > > Correct, FreeBSD depends heavily on gcc abuses/extensions of the C > language, such as __attribute__(()), #warning, and so on. All of which, IMO, are Evil(tm), but which aren't going away, any more than FreeBSD will ever compile under a compiler like the Berkeley Portable C compiler (a K&R compiler) as a result of other non-portable constructs. > >>From what I was able to see in the published documentation on > >the site, there is still no support for inline assembly. I was > >unable to get an answer, one way or another, whether the code > >currently supports "long long", or not, either. > > It has supported long long since 4.1.2 which was released in 1998. As I said, I was unable to get this information from the site; the FAQ has all of two entries in it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 24 22:41:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB53437B401 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E40D43EB2 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0082.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.82] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18cK09-0003F8-00; Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:41:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3E323133.5D974199@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:39:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) References: <3E31C8B9.13708.600FE72D@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a484522d56ce6744c53c2860a1e234d66c387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > On 24 Jan 2003 at 14:02, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Even if it wasn't, Microsoft paid for the port of the BSD code by BSD > > people (rumor has it that they paid $3M for it). > > Does the above mean that MS hired BSD people to port the code to the > MS platform? The postings on Usenet at the time was that the work was done by former CSRG people working at BSDI at the time, under a contract between Microsoft and BSDI. I will emphasize that this was the rumor at the time, and that even though no representatives of BSDI contradicted it at the time, though they were aware of the postings, I do not have personal knowledge of the deal, if any. Your best bet would be to fire off an email to one of the BSDI folks at the time the Windows NT 3.51 release occurred. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 25 5:36:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588C437B401 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 05:36:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from prometheus.home.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCD543E4A for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 05:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@phoenix.home.laserfence.net) Received: from phoenix.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.2]) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18cQTr-0006vB-00; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:36:19 +0200 Received: from will by phoenix.home.laserfence.net with local (Exim 4.10) id 18cQTp-0002ka-00; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:36:17 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Willie Viljoen Organization: Highveld Computing Solutions To: "Stacy Olivas" Subject: Re: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:36:16 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <00ee01c2c3d5$1e1a84e0$0502000a@sentinel> In-Reply-To: <00ee01c2c3d5$1e1a84e0$0502000a@sentinel> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200301251536.16931.will@highveldcs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stacy, It's sad, two cents just won't quite cut it, even if we get alot of peopl= e to=20 donate, taking over a company with share capital will put us back alot of= =20 hard earned cash... That doesn't mean we can't speculate and think up the many wonderful form= s of=20 revenge we could get on these arogant bastards :) Will On Friday 24 January 2003 20:19, Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > Here's a thought what about the intellectual property that > > > > the've enjoy > > > > > at the expense of all of the BSD's? What would happen if > > > > the BSD world > > > > > recinded the rights to TCP/IP and demanded compensation for it's us= e > > > from say everyone? > > > > Mike, the rights to IP itself are with DARPA, so we couldn't > > recind it, but, > > UCB designed the origional UNIX IP stack (which could be > > installed as a > > supliment to AT&T UNIX as part of the patch set then known as > > BSD). If we > > recinded that, even MS would have to pay up for including the > > code in Windows > > 2000. > > Microsoft pay for infringing on someone else's IP rights? Wouldn't the= y > just try to use standard FUD and SS tactics along with a long and drawn= out > case that will make everyone throw in the towel? Or, would they re-des= ign > their OS with a TCP/IP stack that implemented new features, was prone t= o > attacks > and, if you wanted to view any information on the API, you would have t= o > answer > yes to a license during the installation of a PDF that was packaged in = =2EEXE > form that > forbid you of talking about what you saw in the specification to others= who > didn't agree > to the license too??? (sorry, an attempt at humor) > > > Still, from the new SCO's point of view, that's probably a > > bad business plan, > > ie, making money the honest way. Why eat into McBride's > > salary to spend lots > > of money, and lots of time, researching new technology, when > > they can just > > spend their shareholders' money quickly and sue everyone into > > paying them > > "royaltees" for what might be their intilectual property, but > > most certainly > > is not their work. From a BMW-driver's perspective, it's a > > brilliant business > > model, apart from a legal team, you need no employees at all. > > > > That works just wonderfully for management. They don't like engineers > > remember, most engineers are smarter than most management, > > management don't > > like employees that don't think their manager is an all > > knowing all seeing > > entity of universal power which has the final authority on > > everything. If > > managers had their way, they'd be regulating when we are > > allowed to relieve > > ourselves. Just think about seeing this on your office wall: > > "Employees will > > not use company sanitation facilities more than once a day. > > Failure to comply > > will result in manegarial centure of the employee, and > > complete revocation of > > sanitation facility privilages." > > Isn't this called Scientific Management? (Or Fordism).. Where every lit= tle > detail of employees > lives are controlled to the point that they don't have to think for > themselves? > > Hmmm, kinda sounds like a certain OS/Application developer that we all = know > and love, don't it? > > (Substitute employee for user in the first sentence) > > Oh well, just a thought.. > > > > Now, as all management think we should be doing, I'll add a standard > > disclaimer to my e-mail. Almost all of this is just my own > > personal rantings. > > If you take this letter seriously, your are stupid. The > > content of this > > message is not neciserally the view of all engineers, most of > > us just love > > management, really. This message is posted in the hope of promoting > > histerical laughter with all readers, if you did not find it > > funny, or feel > > offended by anything I have posted, I would like to express > > my sincerest > > apologies that the terrible genetic imbalance responsible for > > your inability > > to process humor has so profoundly affected you and would > > like to advise you > > that medication is available for this condition. > > Too late, management is drafting a policy as we speak to censure you...= =2E :) > > > There we go, I've gotten everybody's two cents worth, that'll > > do for the day. > > If you would like more nonsensical ranting and random abuse > > hurled at large > > corporations, please contact will@highveldcs.com, I am always > > available for > > unfriendly comments. > > > > Will > > Hmm, if we take the two cents that you throw in, add my dime, we can us= e it > as a starting point > for the collection to overthrow the "new" SCO... And if we keep all > donations to monetary > denominations like pennies and nickles and dimes, we could literally bu= ry > them during the takeover... > > Hmmmm........ :) > > > -- > > Willie Viljoen > > IT Solutions Consultant > > > > Highveld Computing Solutions > > 214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas > > Bloemfontein > > 9321 > > South Africa > > > > +27 51 522 15 60 > > +27 51 522 44 36 (after hours) > > +27 82 404 03 27 (mobile) > > > > will@highveldcs.com > > > > Be ahead of the pack, visit http://www.highveldcs.com/ and > > find out how our > > next generation IT solutions will propel your business into > > the 21st century. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=20 Willie Viljoen IT Solutions Consultant Highveld Computing Solutions 214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60 +27 51 522 44 36 (after hours) +27 82 404 03 27 (mobile) will@highveldcs.com Be ahead of the pack, visit http://www.highveldcs.com/ and find out how o= ur=20 next generation IT solutions will propel your business into the 21st cent= ury. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 25 6:40:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C5737B401 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 06:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3B343EB2 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 06:40:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h0PEeZIF046456 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:40:35 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: RE: trouble brewing over the UNIX thing again... (was on freebsd-questions, moved to freebsd-chat) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:40:25 +0100 Message-ID: <001801c2c47f$b2fb2790$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3E31B80F.E08E135@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Stacy Olivas wrote: > > > > Here's a thought what about the intellectual property that > > > > the've enjoy at the expense of all of the BSD's? What would > > > > happen if the BSD world recinded the rights to TCP/IP and > > > > demanded compensation for it's use from say everyone? > > > > > > Mike, the rights to IP itself are with DARPA, so we couldn't > > > recind it, but, UCB designed the origional UNIX IP stack (which > > > could be installed as a supliment to AT&T UNIX as part of the > > > patch set then known as BSD). If we recinded that, even MS > > > would have to pay up for including the code in Windows 2000. > > > > Microsoft pay for infringing on someone else's IP rights? > > Microsoft is not "infringing". > I now they aren't.. I was attempting to make a joke.. sorry. :) > The standard license grant is "in perpetuity". > > Even if it wasn't, Microsoft paid for the port of the BSD code by > BSD people (rumor has it that they paid $3M for it). $3M? ouch... > > -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 25 9:53:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CA137B401 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (smtp-out-6.wanadoo.fr [193.252.19.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C7943ED8 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from virginie_tellier2@yahoo.fr) Received: from mel-rta10.wanadoo.fr (193.252.19.193) by mel-rto6.wanadoo.fr (6.7.015) id 3E0C343F011F9A3E for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:53:41 +0100 Received: from aSqueakSystem (80.13.150.55) by mel-rta10.wanadoo.fr (6.7.015) id 3E26DAA60058094E for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:53:41 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:53:41 +0100 (added by postmaster@wanadoo.fr) Message-ID: <3E26DAA60058094E@mel-rta10.wanadoo.fr> (added by postmaster@wanadoo.fr) From: Virginie Tellier To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Bonjour Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bonjour, Excusez moi de vous importuner, mais je vous informe qu'un nouveau site a vu le jour. Il a pour but de faciliter internet, pour nous les internautes francophones. Ce site comporte les 350 meilleurs sites francophones tous domaines confondus. http://www.WebStart.WS La porte d'entree du web francophone! Allez vite y jeter un oeil... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 25 11: 6:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BD737B401 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hope.caffeinated-systems.com (hope.caffeinated-systems.com [209.98.143.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304DF43E4A for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@caffeinated-systems.com) Received: by hope.caffeinated-systems.com (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 754794D289; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:46:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:46:23 -0600 From: Jon Passki To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Point of Sale (POS) and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20030125184623.GF52156@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello All, I'm preparing to commit myself to a start-up business, and one area I am currently researching is the Point of Sale (POS) systems. While going into the business model isn't quite necessary at the moment (maybe later), I've noticed a small market that includes FreeBSD in POS applications/devices. Some of these are of commercial interests, while others are open source projects under various licensing terms. I am soliciting feedback on my basic design, and wish to start a dialog on how others have used/not used FreeBSD in POS environments. Some POS Systems: --) L'ane is a POS system that seems to not care too much on the underlying O/S [1]. --) ViewTouch seems to be a commercial POS provider/reseller [2]. --) BananaHead POS, while linux-based, seems nifty [6] As I understand it (in practice and through research), is the POS environment can somewhat be split in two areas: terminals and back office/business logic. Support on the terminals seems a conglomerate of glue and patience. E.g. receipt printers have support through direct codes (L'ane does this through perl) or through CUPS [3], as in the case of the Star TSP{600-800} line of thermal printers [4]. Also, some touch screens are supported by XFree86 modules. Smartcards have some support through MUSCLE [5]. And the rest seems doable ;-) The back-office stuff really depends on the business model, but again, there's stuff out there. L'ane and others have their own operational packages. Then going into the financial/administrative portion, there's projects like SQL-Ledger for accounting/GL stuff [7]. In designing my own POS, I'm wishing to avoid pitfalls that others have encountered. I have no information up yet on this, but when I do (seasoned procrastinator :-), I want to offer all I can back to the FreeBSD community. So.... What else have you all seen? What are the issues? Is this something that if available as a port(s), what would you like to see? Are there vendors that have been receptive/black holes about open source support? Thanks for your time on this! Jon Passki p.s. I probably won't stay subscribed to -chat for too long, so please include me directly on any follow-up. [1] http://l-ane.sourceforge.net [2] http://www.viewtouch.com [3] http://www.cups.org [4] http://www.starmicronics.com [5] http://www.linuxnet.com [6] http://www.bananahead.com/pos/index.html [7] http://www.sql-ledger.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 25 12:22:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC96B37B401 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hope.caffeinated-systems.com (hope.caffeinated-systems.com [209.98.143.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB48C43E4A for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 12:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@caffeinated-systems.com) Received: by hope.caffeinated-systems.com (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 8D17D4D289; Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:02:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 14:02:06 -0600 From: Jon Passki To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Point of Sale (POS) and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20030125200206.GH52156@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> References: <20030125184623.GF52156@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030125184623.GF52156@hope.caffeinated-systems.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry about the poorly-formatted message from before. Jon On Sat, Jan 25, 2003 at 12:46:23PM -0600, Jon Passki wrote: > Hello All, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message