From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 4:39:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD8837B405 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 04:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710FA43F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 04:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 15BAF536E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:39:23 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: Bill Moran , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 13:39:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: (swear@attbi.com's message of "08 Feb 2003 18:43:04 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what > to do. XML is a syntax, not a language. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:13:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FE937B409; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6935343F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAF91C365D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id AE86A3FE8; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:23 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:23 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141323.AE86A3FE8@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:14: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C17437B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDF643F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7A41C39C0; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 9186C3C48; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:13:44 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141344.9186C3C48@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:14:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A71B37B64A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1FD743F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B7B1C3779; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 51125E4B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141413.51125E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:14:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5C137B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0459B43F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6967B1C36BE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 25E044297; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:54 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141454.25E044297@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:15: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBC937B486; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE3343F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56D41C3959; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 8DC52426A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:14:40 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141440.8DC52426A@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:15: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651FD37B496; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7DFA43FAF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7FB1C395F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 35B434031; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:07 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141507.35B434031@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:15:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0414837B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956DA43FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381591C389C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id D7E113D0A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:21 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:21 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141521.D7E113D0A@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:15:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C75337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7610243FAF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1991C395F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 0E82EE4B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:31 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141532.0E82EE4B9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:15:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6592F37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0304143FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AC51C36BE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 972043B53; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:57 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141557.972043B53@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:16: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB9337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2685343FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737841C3ACB; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 29ECC3DC5; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:43 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:15:43 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141543.29ECC3DC5@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:16:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD97137B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638DC43FAF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19511C39E9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 92D08E4B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:19 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:19 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141619.92D08E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:16:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC66037B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C4C43FE9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D31E1C3B1F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 093C73A40; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:53 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:53 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141653.093C73A40@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:17: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB24C37B407; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C4043FDF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44A81C39BC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 71220E4B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:16:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141637.71220E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:17:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394EE37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B6543FDD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1D01C36BE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id EE0F83EBB; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:34 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141734.EE0F83EBB@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:17:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC3337B409; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFCA43FE3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951141C3896; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 5FA004179; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:14 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141714.5FA004179@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:17:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C09637B4AC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431DB43FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEE41C36BE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id A207A3F02; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:52 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:17:52 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141752.A207A3F02@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:18:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B4637B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD2143F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980571C36BE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3DC824186; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:16 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141816.3DC824186@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:18:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D790F37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195E343FA3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00D11C3F1F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 614C83EBC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:32 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141832.614C83EBC@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:18:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF2E37B408; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1145243F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA911C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3237A3B6B; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:18:54 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141854.3237A3B6B@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:19: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B8737B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4892A43FB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCFB1C39E8; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id CB9C63EBC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:05 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141905.CB9C63EBC@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:19:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFBE37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D92DB43F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36921C3B56; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 6BA3C3ABD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141916.6BA3C3ABD@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:19:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C9637B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E18643F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C74C1C36BE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id D7F783F0D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141937.D7F783F0D@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:19:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B2F37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30B443FDD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09281C3B1F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id B10C23AC3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:49 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:19:49 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209141949.B10C23AC3@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:20:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3505937B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2571443FDF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DC11C4041; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 11C3B411C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142002.11C3B411C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:20:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC01837B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE6E43FA3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E77C1C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id F360B39A3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142035.F360B39A3@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:20:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5FE37B413; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3F843FCB; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AEC1C3D16; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 736CD3A74; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142017.736CD3A74@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:21:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B059337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88EE43FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056DB1C3E77; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id D0FD74152; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:20:48 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142048.D0FD74152@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:21:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C43E37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0A843FD7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0841C4041; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 125303A69; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:01 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142102.125303A69@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:21:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E477437B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D87E43FDD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1C71C3896; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2D02D11E8C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:30 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:21:30 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142130.2D02D11E8C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:22: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A837B37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93A443FA3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932F01C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 57A8B3BB6; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:01 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:01 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142201.57A8B3BB6@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:22:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7602237B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6250343FD7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EED21C3C58; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 0E5693A03; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:18 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:18 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142218.0E5693A03@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:22:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CEF37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F30343FA3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0431C4095; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id C32953EF7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142237.C32953EF7@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:23: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B0E37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D5A43FE0; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542411C3C58; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 13FC540C6; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:03 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142303.13FC540C6@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:23:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E6E37B40F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2706243FAF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83831C3EF2; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 9013D399C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:22:50 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142250.9013D399C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:23:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE3637B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91CE43F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9337C1C3C9B; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 553764365; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142329.553764365@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:23:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9003237B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65FB43F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586A41C4055; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 439E73EBC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:16 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142316.439E73EBC@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:23:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087AE37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A38743FB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F621C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 237F7E4B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:56 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142357.237F7E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:24:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931D237B679; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8246D43FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E484E1C3C9B; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id D48BC40DC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142417.D48BC40DC@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:24:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529E037B4E9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.arcor-ip.de (mail1.arcor-ip.de [145.253.2.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CD543F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Friedemann.Becker@student.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from chasey (212.144.228.174) by mail1.arcor-ip.de (5.5.034) id 3E1E8763001EAD3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:24:28 +0100 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:29:30 +0100 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Westeurop=E4ische_Normalzeit?=) From: Friedemann Becker To: Matthew Dillon Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: subscribe In-Reply-To: <20030209141752.A207A3F02@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: References: <20030209141752.A207A3F02@sitemail.everyone.net> X-X-Sender: zxmxy33@mailserv02.uni-tuebingen.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Matthew Dillon wrote: > subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org ich kenn dich nicht und es interessiert mich auch normalerweise nicht, aber warum muss ich immer deinen namen lesen, wenn irgendwer irgendwo anfaengt zu nerven? und irgendwie bist es immer du, es ist mir auch scheissegal, ob du meine mail verstehst oder nicht, und auch ist mir wurscht, ob du d3er richtige adressat bist oder nicht, aber ES GEHT MIR AUF DEN SACK! SHUT UP, FUCK OFF, VERPISS DICH regards, friedemann ------ please ignore this mail if either - the above cited mail was not sent intentionally - you are not the originator of the above cited email - you really just wanted to subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:24:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8493037B43F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171F543FAF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133E91C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id C48B4399C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:29 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:29 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142429.C48B4399C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:24:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51A037B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B72243F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCC51C3D82; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id B4CC13F59; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:40 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:23:40 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142340.B4CC13F59@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:25:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6458B37B42A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BFC43FB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA681C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 982E911E8C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:12 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:12 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142512.982E911E8C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:25:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4802437B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4C743F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16201C3D58; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 99F204147; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:27 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142527.99F204147@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:25:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E15A37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460C843F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283021C3C7E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 0C2673B75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:43 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:43 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142543.0C2673B75@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:25:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8611037B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E8F43F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253A31C3715; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id D1CFF4147; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142444.D1CFF4147@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:26: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869C337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B831943F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AACA1C3A62; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 4DCAD3CB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:25:58 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142558.4DCAD3CB1@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:26:16 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE4337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283EF43FDF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CD11C3B9C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id B0DF94486; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:13 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:13 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142613.B0DF94486@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:26:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D59437B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1E343F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C421C3ED0; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3B0143ADE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:34 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:26:34 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142634.3B0143ADE@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:27: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069B937B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C4143F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA281C3C9B; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id EC19D4478; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:03 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142703.EC19D4478@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:27:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E955237B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067EC43FA3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88751C3D75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 7539E3B5C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:33 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:33 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142733.7539E3B5C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:27:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F415137B410; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA33543FD7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86C11C410D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 8B4353CB2; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:17 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142717.8B4353CB2@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:28: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9543537B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0652E43F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C831C3E93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id BA4E34489; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:03 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142803.BA4E34489@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:28:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3BB37B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1BE143F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:28:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0951C3EFA; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id E7F723E11; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:47 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:27:47 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142747.E7F723E11@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org subscribe freebsd-chat@freebsd.org -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:29:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3471337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A7943FB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8981C3F1E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 14A9E3D95; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:42 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142942.14A9E3D95@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:30:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E08037B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AB043FBF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869D71C3DF2; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 582403B6E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143010.582403B6E@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:30:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82A637B406; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313EF43FBF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35441C3BAE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 46EFC3963; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:29:54 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209142954.46EFC3963@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:30:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E95237B42F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A109C43F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5AF1C3F52; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 33A4A4160; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:22 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:22 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143022.33A4A4160@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:30:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6D037B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CA343F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2F41C3D75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id AC9FE4161; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:35 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:35 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143035.AC9FE4161@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:31: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A50D37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EBB443FB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4EF1C3F43; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 0AF27E4B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:30:57 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143057.0AF27E4B9@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:31:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D644B37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491E643F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241BF1C3F43; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id ECE513E0C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:27 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143127.ECE513E0C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:32: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE74A37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00ADF43FD7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872F11C3FBF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 71F75401A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143158.71F75401A@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:32:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7063C37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BC743F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC71B1C37B9; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id B3ED03D65; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143210.B3ED03D65@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:32:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8713637B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB31F43FEA; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBDB1C3F2E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 05057399C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:28 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:28 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143228.05057399C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:33:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED27537B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1362143F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C3E1C3E05; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 1ADD011E8C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:32:50 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143250.1ADD011E8C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:33:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E198A37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5728C43F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F271C3A99; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 6BC8711E8C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:02 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:02 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143302.6BC8711E8C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:33:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5B637B407; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB0343FE0; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 662EF1C3D3B; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 31F913CF6; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:14 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143314.31F913CF6@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:34: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0148337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CD743F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2081C3F43; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3402D39C5; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:06 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:06 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143406.3402D39C5@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:34:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2AA37B40D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2194C43FBD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7BE1C3E38; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3DA5B3D72; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143350.3DA5B3D72@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:34:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F9F37B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE3A43FDF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF12E1C3F4A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id A593911E8C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:31 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:31 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143431.A593911E8C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:34:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3BC837B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A1643F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBCD1C3F2E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id A0F324625; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:20 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:20 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143420.A0F324625@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:35: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2525337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD64143F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447B41C3B31; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 14E153F72; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:34:41 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143441.14E153F72@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:35:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B7D37B406; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC00243FB1; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E7E1C409D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 4E2443FBB; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:07 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143507.4E2443FBB@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:35:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED34C37B405; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D2743F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31831C4059; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 8D98C3D0A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:22 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:22 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143522.8D98C3D0A@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:35:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E78D37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35B543FCB; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1974B1C3F43; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id E144541B2; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:35:51 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143551.E144541B2@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:36:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0973337B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAB843FAF; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C641C3EFA; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 049643EF2; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:10 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143610.049643EF2@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:36:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC01A37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFADD43F3F; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6431C40CC; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 4CBC53FC2; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:31 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:31 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143631.4CBC53FC2@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:37: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D949F37B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699FE43FD7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0A51C3ED0; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 991C13F59; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:43 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:36:43 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143643.991C13F59@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:37:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D22137B407; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C1F43FE3; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9759E1C40DE; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 6D1193D58; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:08 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143708.6D1193D58@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:37:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA28737B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A149B43F93; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E5B1C409D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2683B3FF7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:39 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:38 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143739.2683B3FF7@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:37:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BF737B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417AF43F75; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6080F1C4055; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 5376E11E8C; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:25 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143725.5376E11E8C@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:38:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E3737B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F8343FF5; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@heavynoize.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta02.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B651C409D; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id B7EF33B43; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:38:15 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: sorry Reply-To: dillon@heavynoize.net X-Originating-Ip: [68.164.33.2] Message-Id: <20030209143815.B7EF33B43@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [19:22] Yeah, I really despise the FreeBSD folks in general, they have some of the biggest small dick complexies out of all the open source folks I know of. [19:22] Alfred is one of the worst, Bill Fumerola is the other. -- Matthew Dillon DBSD - Available soon, FFL(1) licensed 1 - The Fuck Fumerola License (TM) _____________________________________________________________ The Heavynoize Network --- http://heavynoize.net/ _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@yourchoice.com w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 6:39:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CDC37B406 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3041243FBD for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 06:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19EdKnZ000872; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:39:20 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost) by happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h19EdKAv000871; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:39:20 GMT Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:39:20 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Bill Moran , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209143920.GA782@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.44 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:39:23PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what > > to do. > > XML is a syntax, not a language. http://weblog.burningbird.net/fires/000581.htm Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 7:23:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5CF37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 07:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailf.telia.com (mailf.telia.com [194.22.194.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1373643FCB for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 07:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dr.zoidberg@telia.com) Received: from d1o954.telia.com (d1o954.telia.com [217.210.132.241]) by mailf.telia.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h19FNAgC012387; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:23:10 +0100 (CET) X-Original-Recipient: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from buddha (h236n2fls31o954.telia.com [217.210.133.236]) by d1o954.telia.com (8.10.2/8.10.1) with SMTP id h19FNAU00149; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:23:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002101c2d04f$27db1c20$be00a8c0@buddha> From: "Zoidberg" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: "Bill Moran" , References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net><15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org><3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net><15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org><3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com><15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org><3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> Subject: Re: languages Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:23:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org says who? XML = Extensible Markup Language HTML = HyperText Markup Lanuage ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: "Bill Moran" ; Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:39 PM Subject: Re: languages > swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what > > to do. > > XML is a syntax, not a language. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 7:25:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E1737B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 07:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.arcor-ip.de (mail1.arcor-ip.de [145.253.2.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AF943FB1 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 07:25:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Friedemann.Becker@student.uni-tuebingen.de) Received: from chasey (212.144.228.174) by mail1.arcor-ip.de (5.5.034) id 3E1E8763001EB0C6 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:25:35 +0100 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:30:32 +0100 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Westeurop=E4ische_Normalzeit?=) From: Friedemann Becker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: X-X-Sender: zxmxy33@mailserv02.uni-tuebingen.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi again, after several mails - some of them leading to the wrong direction - I decided to dare the big step: ask for help! FreeBSD is nice and so on, documentation is great, many ports etc, "How to contribute" hanbook chapter and the article are good too, but still I miss most of the point: I feel rather helpless when surfing through the gnats database, looking for interesting tasks I could do. Some of the projects even would look interesting, but e.g. for ia64 I do not have the hardware, binup seems to sleep or to be unsure what the goals of the project are - or I didn't understand - some of the projects don't seem to belong to freebsd.org directly (like ALTQ). I also would like to fix things like my bugreport (kern/47512), but I just lack of background too much, to do things like this. It seems to me - and I think I read something like this recently - that freebsd is low on manpower: port-related bugreports are flooding the gnats-database, so maintainers can't keep step with it. I _really_ want to help, I think of myself as a quite potentially usefull programmer, but I need someones help here. If someone could please divert my unused engergies to the right direction :) Thanks for all the advances in fish ;-) Friedemann To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 8:43:25 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E7B037B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 08:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-13.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D7243F3F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 08:43:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h19GimrX000908; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:44:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E46848E.8050601@potentialtech.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 11:40:46 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zoidberg Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net><15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org><3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net><15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org><3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com><15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org><3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <002101c2d04f$27db1c20$be00a8c0@buddha> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Zoidberg wrote: > says who? > > XML = Extensible Markup Language > HTML = HyperText Markup Lanuage Sure ... and I can fly because I use Windows XP. And when I drink Pepsi, I get so happy that I dance around, and suddenly there are voluptuous women dancing with me! And everyone is young again, and happy and carefree! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" > >>swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: >> >>>XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what >>>to do. >> >>XML is a syntax, not a language. >> >>DES >>-- >>Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 8:43:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5D537B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 08:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-13.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B6943FA3 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 08:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h19GjGrX000911; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:45:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E4684A9.2090209@potentialtech.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 11:41:13 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Seaman Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <20030209143920.GA782@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Seaman wrote: > On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:39:23PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >>swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: >> >>>XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what >>>to do. >> >>XML is a syntax, not a language. > > http://weblog.burningbird.net/fires/000581.htm That was a very satisfying read. Thank you for the link. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:13:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574F937B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5046943F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:13:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 39CFA536E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:13:29 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Zoidberg" Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Bill Moran" , Subject: Re: languages From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 19:13:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <002101c2d04f$27db1c20$be00a8c0@buddha> ("Zoidberg"'s message of "Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:23:10 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <002101c2d04f$27db1c20$be00a8c0@buddha> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Zoidberg" writes: > says who? > > XML = Extensible Markup Language All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: GEOMCTL geom.ctl 1 r0w0e0 geom.ctl 0 512 DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:22:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC5437B405 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FE443FB1 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19IMoja064884; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:22:50 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h19IMoTa064883; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:22:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19IGQaX034872; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:16:26 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302091816.h19IGQaX034872@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Friedemann Becker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Feb 2003 16:30:32 +0100." Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:16:26 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Friedemann Becker writes: > If someone could please divert my unused engergies to the right direction :) Use the OS. When something bothers you, fix it :-). Submit your fix back through the usual channels to learn the project norms and customs. Repeat. Welcome to FreeBSD! :-) M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:28: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D42037B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8551643FBF for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:27:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19IRpja064981; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:27:51 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h19IRpTC064980; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:27:51 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19IKpaX034953; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:20:51 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302091820.h19IKpaX034953@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Zoidberg" , "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Bill Moran" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Feb 2003 19:13:29 +0100." Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:20:51 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > "Zoidberg" writes: > > says who? > > > > XML = Extensible Markup Language > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: Where in a dictionary is the meaning of Jabberwocky explained? 'Twas brillig. and the slithy toves did gimble on the gyre.... Language is a structure, not necessarily a meaning. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:37:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602D037B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE0E43FA3 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:37:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([81.103.196.4]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20030209183747.QOWT4022.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk>; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:37:47 +0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030209183111.03475ea8@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:37:41 +0000 To: Mark Murray From: Colin Percival Subject: Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200302091816.h19IGQaX034872@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:16 09/02/2003 +0000, Mark Murray wrote: >Use the OS. When something bothers you, fix it :-). Submit your fix >back through the usual channels to learn the project norms and customs. Continuing on with this process, what's the next step? Specifically, after finding a bug, fixing it, submitting a PR with included patches to -CURRENT and -STABLE, and watching it sit in GNATS for 8 weeks, is there anything to do other than keep on waiting? Colin Percival To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:47: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7132F37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7BC43F3F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18hwTj-0004Wo-01 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 10:46:59 -0800 Received: (qmail 19939 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 18:46:58 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:46:58 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mark Murray Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200302091820.h19IKpaX034953@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the > > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: Presumably in some DTD somewhere? That's possible with XML (hence "extensible") > Where in a dictionary is the meaning of Jabberwocky explained? > > 'Twas brillig. and the slithy toves did gimble on the gyre.... > > Language is a structure, not necessarily a meaning. Well, it's explained later in "Through the looking glass", and some of it even got into the dictionary later ("chortle", "galumph"). The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact explained anywhere -- the reader understands them by context. But they still have a meaning. Ditto with some of Edward Lear's nonsense. I think language is a structure *and* a meaning, but the meaning doesn't necessarily come from an authoritative dictionary (though the Academie Fran�aise may disagree) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:52:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F0537B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2210D43F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19Iqoja065220; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:52:50 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h19Iqois065219; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:52:50 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19IjQaX035407; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:45:26 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302091845.h19IjQaX035407@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Colin Percival Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:37:41 GMT." <5.0.2.1.1.20030209183111.03475ea8@popserver.sfu.ca> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:45:26 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Colin Percival writes: > At 18:16 09/02/2003 +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > >Use the OS. When something bothers you, fix it :-). Submit your fix > >back through the usual channels to learn the project norms and customs. > > Continuing on with this process, what's the next step? Specifically, > after finding a bug, fixing it, submitting a PR with included patches to > -CURRENT and -STABLE, and watching it sit in GNATS for 8 weeks, is there > anything to do other than keep on waiting? Yeah. Do enough of the above to get a good portfolio of patches "on register". Participate in mailing lists such that your name and credibility are recognised. Sooner or later someone will get annoyed by this unprovoked display of compatibility and competence and punish you with a commit bit. After that, you commit your own damn patches. ;-) M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:52:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C131237B40D for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from maile.telia.com (maile.telia.com [194.22.190.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EEB43FA3 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dr.zoidberg@telia.com) Received: from d1o954.telia.com (d1o954.telia.com [217.210.132.241]) by maile.telia.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h19Iqm0L002206; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:52:48 +0100 (CET) X-Original-Recipient: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from buddha (h236n2fls31o954.telia.com [217.210.133.236]) by d1o954.telia.com (8.10.2/8.10.1) with SMTP id h19IqmU28402; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:52:48 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001001c2d06c$7bd7c9a0$be00a8c0@buddha> From: "Zoidberg" To: "Bill Moran" Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" , References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net><15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org><3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net><15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org><3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com><15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org><3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <002101c2d04f$27db1c20$be00a8c0@buddha> <3E46848E.8050601@potentialtech.com> Subject: Re: languages Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:53:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org well, congratulations then... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Moran" To: "Zoidberg" Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" ; "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" ; Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 5:40 PM Subject: Re: languages > Zoidberg wrote: > > says who? > > > > XML = Extensible Markup Language > > HTML = HyperText Markup Lanuage > > Sure ... and I can fly because I use Windows XP. > > And when I drink Pepsi, I get so happy that I dance around, > and suddenly there are voluptuous women dancing with me! > And everyone is young again, and happy and carefree! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" > > > >>swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > >> > >>>XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what > >>>to do. > >> > >>XML is a syntax, not a language. > >> > >>DES > >>-- > >>Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > >> > >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > Bill Moran > Potential Technologies > http://www.potentialtech.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:56:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC1C37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A1D43FB1 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:56:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18hwcl-0000k0-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 10:56:19 -0800 Received: (qmail 20002 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 18:56:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:56:18 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Colin Percival Cc: Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030209183111.03475ea8@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Colin Percival wrote: > Continuing on with this process, what's the next step? Specifically, > after finding a bug, fixing it, submitting a PR with included patches to > -CURRENT and -STABLE, and watching it sit in GNATS for 8 weeks, is there > anything to do other than keep on waiting? GNATS does seem to be in a logjam, and will clearly get worse as the userbase increases. Have the FreeBSD project thought about bugzilla? Both GNOME and KDE have switched to it recently, finding their old bug system (debbugs, I think) didn't scale. In fact it seems to have very useful features, like handling of duplicates, dependency tracking of bugs, etc, which would (I presume) reduce the logjam quite a bit. The couple of times I submitted Mozilla bugs, I was impressed by the rapid response (in one case it was a duplicate, and flagged as that within minutes of my sending it). R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:12:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2FF37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.midgard.homeip.net (h76n3fls20o913.telia.com [213.67.148.76]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2214243F85 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:12:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ertr1013@student.uu.se) Received: (qmail 37996 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 19:12:04 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:12:03 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209191203.GA37952@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:46:58PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Mark Murray wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the > > > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: >=20 > Presumably in some DTD somewhere? That's possible with XML (hence > "extensible") >=20 > > Where in a dictionary is the meaning of Jabberwocky explained? > > > > 'Twas brillig. and the slithy toves did gimble on the gyre.... > > > > Language is a structure, not necessarily a meaning. >=20 > Well, it's explained later in "Through the looking glass", and some > of it even got into the dictionary later ("chortle", "galumph"). >=20 > The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact > explained anywhere -- the reader understands them by context. But > they still have a meaning. Ditto with some of Edward Lear's nonsense. >=20 > I think language is a structure *and* a meaning, but the meaning > doesn't necessarily come from an authoritative dictionary (though the > Academie Fran=E7aise may disagree) The definition of "language" in mathematics (which is also used in computer science) is as follows: An alphabet L is a finite non-empty set of symbols. Let L* be the set of all strings of elements in L (including the empty stri= ng.) A _language_ over L is a subset of L*. Note that this is a very broad definition and does not concern itself with any meaning of a language. For example does "All strings containing exactly 2 instances of the letter 'a'" define a language over the alphabet {a,b,d,@,2,k}. Not a very useful or interesting language, but a language anyway. So, yes, HTML and XML are languages. They might not be programming languages but they are certainly languages. --=20 Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:15:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7334737B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-13.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5214143F3F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) by pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h19JGrrX000944; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:16:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3E46A833.1000500@potentialtech.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 14:12:51 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20021127 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schultz Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <20030209060656.GA398@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schultz wrote: > Thus spake Gary W. Swearingen : > >>Bill Moran writes: >> >>>OK, I'll give you XML, but despite the name, I don't really consider >>>HTML a "language". >> >>XML and HTML are both languages in which you may tell the computer what >>to do. > > Sure. Just don't categorize them as such on your resume. ;-) Are you crazy? I've actually had interviewers ask me if I knew HTML and when I told them "yes", they asked why it wasn't on the resume. "It's under 'other' at the end," I'd say. "Why isn't it under programming languages?" they asked. I don't really consider HTML to be nearly as impressive as ASP, PHP, C, C++, perl or any of the other languages that fall into that category, but I'd still put it in the "computer languages" section of my resume. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:23:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D99337B405 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3E943F85 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18hx2k-0002IZ-01 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 11:23:10 -0800 Received: (qmail 21981 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 19:23:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:23:09 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Erik Trulsson Cc: Mark Murray , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209192309.GA21962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209191203.GA37952@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030209191203.GA37952@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Erik Trulsson wrote: > The definition of "language" in mathematics (which is also used in > computer science) is as follows: > > An alphabet L is a finite non-empty set of symbols. > Let L* be the set of all strings of elements in L (including the empty string.) > A _language_ over L is a subset of L*. > > Note that this is a very broad definition and does not concern itself > with any meaning of a language. Well, it arguably defines a vocabulary. What about syntax, grammar? Aren't those part of a language? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:32:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A2D37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E9D43FCB for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18hxC9-00036z-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 11:32:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 22046 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 19:32:50 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:32:50 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030209193250.GA22019@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030209151407.N548@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Hermit Hacker said on Feb 9, 2003 at 15:23:52: > For example, take a look at the oldest Critical ticket ... its from '98 > *and* deals with v3.x ... chances are the user has long since moved on to > newer hardware (deals with the Cyrix CPU) or moved away from 3.x to the > newer versions ... Well, if the bug still exists, it's possible there are related later bug reports, and if it doesn't exist, it was possible it was fixed as followup to a different bug report. Either way, dependency tracking would help: if a later bug was classified as dependent on an earlier one, then if one was closed by a developer, the other would be also (without explicit action from the developer). Even if the developer forgot to close the bug, the whole "tree" of dependencies still exists, so when someone wakes up and starts to close these reports, the entire tree can be killed off in one stroke. Plus, duplicate bug handling will reduce the number of open bugs. Having a list of "most frequently reported bugs" and "most recently duplicated bugs" on the webpage (as bugzilla.mozilla.org does) would also potentially reduce the number of bug reports quite a bit. As I understand, all this is essentially impossible to do in GNATS, and things are going to get worse. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:39: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A817137B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3A943F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:39:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036428A1B0A; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:39:01 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:39:01 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) In-Reply-To: <20030209193250.GA22019@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: <20030209153407.M7884@hub.org> References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <20030209193250.GA22019@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > As I understand, all this is essentially impossible to do in GNATS, and > things are going to get worse. 'K, one thing that I don't recall when we investigated Bugzilla way back when ... GNaTs has a 'send-pr' functionality that is installed by default, so that submitting bug reports is integrated as part of each release? And, I think, the biggest nightmare ... how do you switch over from GNaTs -> Bugzilla without losing a *very* large portion of your user base? You'd need some sort of 'GNaTs Report -> Bugzilla Entry' gateway so that users of older versions would still have acess ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:56:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B4437B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.midgard.homeip.net (h76n3fls20o913.telia.com [213.67.148.76]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9DAAA43F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:56:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ertr1013@student.uu.se) Received: (qmail 38410 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 19:56:51 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:56:51 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209195650.GA38369@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209191203.GA37952@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20030209192309.GA21962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030209192309.GA21962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 02:23:09PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Erik Trulsson wrote: > > The definition of "language" in mathematics (which is also used in > > computer science) is as follows: > > > > An alphabet L is a finite non-empty set of symbols. > > Let L* be the set of all strings of elements in L (including the empty string.) > > A _language_ over L is a subset of L*. > > > > Note that this is a very broad definition and does not concern itself > > with any meaning of a language. > > Well, it arguably defines a vocabulary. > What about syntax, grammar? Aren't those part of a language? That is included in the above defintion. Note that "symbols" can include things like space and newline. This means that for example the following int main(void) { return 0; } is a string over the set of ASCII symbols. It happens to be a valid C program while the following aad sdfsd &734 11 s s dfsdf 43534 which is also a string over the set of ASCII symbols is not a valid C program. Both are obviously elements of ASCII* but only the first is an element of the subset of ASCII* which is the set of all valid C programs. To define a particular language over some alphabet you need to give some kind of description on which strings are part of the language and which are not. I.e. you need to define which subset of L* you are talking about, since each subset defines a separate language. A grammar is a very useful way of doing that for a large class of languages. (Actually I believe that all languages in the above sense can be described by a grammar, but for some languages (e.g. English) it can be quite complicated (and in many cases completely infeasible) to write a correct grammar that fully describes the language.) -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:58:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8525637B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB1843F3F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B154B536E; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:58:43 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:58:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:46:58 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the > > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: > Presumably in some DTD somewhere? That's possible with XML (hence > "extensible") DTDs specify a grammar, not an interpretation. The ISO C standard specifies the syntax, grammar and semantics of C. The XML specification however only specifies a syntax, and a mechanism for describing a grammar using that syntax. It says nothing about semantics. > The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact > explained anywhere Don't you mean George Orwell's _1984_? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 12: 5: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F1537B405 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB6F43F3F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:04:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18hxhD-0002DQ-01 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 12:04:59 -0800 Received: (qmail 22331 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Feb 2003 20:04:58 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:04:58 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030209200458.GA22312@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 9, 2003 at 20:58:43: > > The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact > > explained anywhere > > Don't you mean George Orwell's _1984_? No, I meant Burgess, but I didn't mean newspeak - sorry. I forget what Burgess called it. It was a sort of street lingo. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 12:52:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7969B37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D7543F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 12:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19Kqqja066562; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:52:52 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h19KqpAB066561; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:52:52 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h19KmlaX037014; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:48:47 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302092048.h19KmlaX037014@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:58:43 +0100." Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 20:48:47 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact > > explained anywhere > > Don't you mean George Orwell's _1984_? 1984 == Newspeak. A Clockwork Orange == Nadsat (and there is a dictionary at the back of the book). M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 13: 9:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBBA37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3BE43F3F for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:09:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h19L92PU028781; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:09:03 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030209153407.M7884@hub.org> References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <20030209193250.GA22019@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209153407.M7884@hub.org> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:06:05 +0100 To: "Marc G. Fournier" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:39 PM -0400 2003/02/09, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > 'K, one thing that I don't recall when we investigated Bugzilla way back > when ... GNaTs has a 'send-pr' functionality that is installed by default, > so that submitting bug reports is integrated as part of each release? If this feature isn't there today (and I figure it could be), then I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to add it. The program would still be called send-pr, but obviously it probably wouldn't function much like the send-pr we all know and love to hate. > And, I think, the biggest nightmare ... how do you switch over from GNaTs > -> Bugzilla without losing a *very* large portion of your user base? > You'd need some sort of 'GNaTs Report -> Bugzilla Entry' gateway so that > users of older versions would still have acess ... Damn. I wish you had asked these questions a couple of days ago. I had some of the key bugzilla developers sitting with me at the pre-FOSDEM drink on the Grand Place here in Brussels on Friday night, and there was a apparently a pretty big bugzilla representation at the conference. We could have made this a pretty short task.... Oh, and wait for a huge, huge announcement to come soon from them. I can't tell you who's switching over, but it's a really big announcement. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 13:40:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A763437B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from gldis.ca (constans.gldis.ca [66.11.169.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C746E43F85 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: from gldis.ca (gldisater@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gldis.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h19Le9gb009292; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:40:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: (from gldisater@localhost) by gldis.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id h19Le9hT009291; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:40:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:40:09 -0500 From: Jeremy Faulkner To: Mark Murray Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030209214009.GA9242@constans.gldis.ca> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030209183111.03475ea8@popserver.sfu.ca> <200302091845.h19IjQaX035407@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302091845.h19IjQaX035407@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 06:45:26PM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > Colin Percival writes: > > At 18:16 09/02/2003 +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > >Use the OS. When something bothers you, fix it :-). Submit your fix > > >back through the usual channels to learn the project norms and customs. > > > > Continuing on with this process, what's the next step? Specifically, > > after finding a bug, fixing it, submitting a PR with included patches to > > -CURRENT and -STABLE, and watching it sit in GNATS for 8 weeks, is there > > anything to do other than keep on waiting? > > Yeah. Do enough of the above to get a good portfolio of patches "on > register". Participate in mailing lists such that your name and > credibility are recognized. Sooner or later someone will get annoyed by > this unprovoked display of compatibility and competence and punish you > with a commit bit. > > After that, you commit your own damn patches. ;-) > > M > -- > Mark Murray > iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH And finally, you too can be imitated by the project's pet troll. -- Jeremy Faulkner http://www.gldis.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 16:37:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9005F37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A92843FAF for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:37:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dah@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1A0cgVs068086; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:38:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dah@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (dah@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h1A0cfjx068082; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:38:41 GMT Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:38:41 +0000 (utc) From: "David A. Hoffman" To: YAPP Conference Admin , James Howard , Thomas Crowne , soupman , jlamb , pgreen , Greg Russo , , saladman , , Worst Sysop Ever , , , Sodiering in the Army of the Lord , etc Subject: Communism Message-ID: <20030210003543.W68012-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Certainly, Greg Russo has commited a grave injustice in making Kevin FW of the polytarp conference. I demand excision of this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 18:38:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9B437B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF5C43F93 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0195.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.195] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18i3q3-00078z-00; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:38:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E471052.CB6742DB@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:37:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Zoidberg , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Bill Moran , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: languages References: <200302072309.AA423166622@altima.net> <15940.38588.692767.171995@guru.mired.org> <3E44980B.20607@ameritech.net> <15940.39707.55965.640089@guru.mired.org> <3E4521B8.5000504@potentialtech.com> <15941.20500.925676.52788@guru.mired.org> <3E45A4D4.1080702@potentialtech.com> <002101c2d04f$27db1c20$be00a8c0@buddha> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a44929d04c62cff6ce485cb35baa5212ed2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Zoidberg" writes: > > says who? > > > > XML = Extensible Markup Language > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: I think DES is saying that it has to have a grammar, not just a syntax, in order to be a language. ;^). FWIW, what XML *really* is turns out to be "data conforming to the SGML DTD for XML". And "an invention by IBM engineers to work around not being able to move data through a hole in a firewall, without six months of paperwork to get the hole approved". In practical terms, with the sole exception of the financial community, who, for any acceptable-to-them data marked up with XML that DES could post, would be able to point to a standards body ratified standard for a data dictionary that could be used to translate the XML into other record formats (for the financial community, XML is minimally a record format, and occasionally a file format). Can we now go on to argue about whether X Servers are "servers" or not, and whether or not "Internal Revenue Service" is actually a "service", and whether or not "technical support" is neither "technical" nor supportive", yet again? Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 18:46: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015CE37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADBA43FEC for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 18:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from soup@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1A2ZEVs081929; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:35:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from soup@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (soup@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h1A2ZDOp081926; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:35:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 21:35:13 -0500 (EST) From: soupman To: "David A. Hoffman" Cc: YAPP Conference Admin , James Howard , Thomas Crowne , jlamb , pgreen , Greg Russo , , saladman , , Worst Sysop Ever , , , Sodiering in the Army of the Lord , etc Subject: Re: Communism In-Reply-To: <20030210003543.W68012-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Message-ID: <20030209213447.H81812-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I fully support the above measure. On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, David A. Hoffman wrote: > Certainly, Greg Russo has commited a grave injustice in making Kevin FW of > the polytarp conference. I demand excision of this. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 19: 1:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8CC37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FAC43FDD for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0195.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.195] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18i4AG-0001JV-00; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:59:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3E471534.901E75C1@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 18:57:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Percival Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) References: <5.0.2.1.1.20030209183111.03475ea8@popserver.sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a471fd554b54a2fd6bf3a9504b739648c6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Colin Percival wrote: > At 18:16 09/02/2003 +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > >Use the OS. When something bothers you, fix it :-). Submit your fix > >back through the usual channels to learn the project norms and customs. > > Continuing on with this process, what's the next step? Specifically, > after finding a bug, fixing it, submitting a PR with included patches to > -CURRENT and -STABLE, and watching it sit in GNATS for 8 weeks, is there > anything to do other than keep on waiting? You can apply the patch locally, so you can continue finding more bugs and submitting more PRs. You can write regression tests that can prove whether or not your bug has been fixed, so that when the next release comes you, you can regress your list of bugs, and update the "Effects" field of the existing PRs, each time a -RELEASE happens. You can submit PRs containing your regression code, so that others can tell when the bug comes back, if it ever does, even after it has been fixed and marked closed. You can buy hardware that doesn't run under FreeBSD, and obtain the information from the manufacturer necessary to write a FreeBSD driver (this is often easier than obtaining information from FreeBSD on how to write a driver, with some kernel code being undocumented ;^)). You can buy hardware that doesn't run under FreeBSD, and for which the manufacturer refuses to provide information, and, if you live in certain countries, buy a copy of "Sourcer" from V Communications, Inc., and disassemble and reverse engineer the manufacturer's Windows driver, for compatability purposes, as allowed by law in those countries (e.g. Germany). If you live in one of those countries, you can probably get a lot of free hardware for the cost of shipping, from people who aren't in those countries, and found out that the manufacturer would not give you documentation, no matter how hard you pled (usually, a hell of a lot longer than just the 8 months you were complaining about 8^p). You can keep doing this until you get a "mentored commit bit", at which point you can vote for core team members, and project management. You can keep doing this with your "mentored commit bit" until you get a "real commit bit", at which point you will be permitted to perform small amounts of architectural work on your own, and you are still able to vote for core team members and project management. You can also request code by backed out, and the project by-laws require that it be backed out, unless it's a lot of code, in which case it stays, for fear of the backout and recommit process causing "repo bloat" (i.e. if the expectation is that it will be recommitted later, in some form, then your request will be denied as spurious, which it will be). You can get elected to core, and pretty much get away with significant architectural work, which no one else can get away with, as long as you do not step on the toes of other core team members. In other words, it's very much like going to work for an established company, and being hired in at the bottom rung as "customer support specialist", and having to work your way up. Does that answer your question? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 19:25:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE24437B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F057643FBF for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:24:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0195.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.195] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18i4YG-00056u-00; Sun, 09 Feb 2003 19:24:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3E471B01.D767505D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 19:22:41 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4dbf1f0f1457ed2c3f63aff2d436e9a76666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > GNATS does seem to be in a logjam, and will clearly get worse as the > userbase increases. Have the FreeBSD project thought about bugzilla? Every time someone complains about GNATS (including myself), and then again, every time someone posts a Bugzilla root compromise to BugTraq. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 19:28: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E08D37B401 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A00D43FEC for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:26:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 67E1951972; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:56:43 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 13:56:43 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: "David A. Hoffman" Cc: YAPP Conference Admin , James Howard , Thomas Crowne , soupman , jlamb , pgreen , Greg Russo , saladman , chat@freebsd.org, Worst Sysop Ever , news@bbc.co.uk, abuse@m-net.arbornet.org, Sodiering in the Army of the Lord , etc Subject: Re: Communism Message-ID: <20030210032643.GV60203@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030210003543.W68012-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tuYRN1zEaS85jg/Y" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030210003543.W68012-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --tuYRN1zEaS85jg/Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline [trimming obviously disinterested parties] On Monday, 10 February 2003 at 0:38:41 +0000, David A. Hoffman wrote: > Certainly, Greg Russo has commited a grave injustice in making Kevin FW of > the polytarp conference. I demand excision of this. What on earth is this about? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --tuYRN1zEaS85jg/Y Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+RxvzIubykFB6QiMRAqBVAJ9BvjKbWWe5+68p6MitPfgpSOscKACgmVss pfqhUpuOSkWjxFUDe80anck= =XAmH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tuYRN1zEaS85jg/Y-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 19:37:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E877437B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from grex.cyberspace.org (grex.cyberspace.org [216.93.104.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95CA943FF7; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:35:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlamb@grex.cyberspace.org) Received: from localhost (jlamb@localhost) by grex.cyberspace.org (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA17614; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:37:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:37:11 -0500 (EST) From: To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: "David A. Hoffman" , YAPP Conference Admin , James Howard , Thomas Crowne , soupman , jlamb , pgreen , Greg Russo , saladman , chat@FreeBSD.org, Worst Sysop Ever , news@bbc.co.uk, abuse@m-net.arbornet.org, Sodiering in the Army of the Lord , etc Subject: Re: Communism In-Reply-To: <20030210032643.GV60203@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out m-net.arbornet.org they are ran by communists, we think!On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > [trimming obviously disinterested parties] > > On Monday, 10 February 2003 at 0:38:41 +0000, David A. Hoffman wrote: > > Certainly, Greg Russo has commited a grave injustice in making Kevin FW of > > the polytarp conference. I demand excision of this. > > What on earth is this about? > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > Jeremy Allen Lamb 303 N. Mill Camargo, IL 61919 217-832-9712 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 19:46:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2721237B401; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B94443FDD; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 19:44:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dah@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1A3UUVs088943; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 22:30:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dah@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (dah@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h1A3UUUg088940; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:30:30 GMT Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:30:30 +0000 (utc) From: "David A. Hoffman" To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: YAPP Conference Admin , James Howard , Thomas Crowne , soupman , jlamb , pgreen , Greg Russo , saladman , , Worst Sysop Ever , , , Sodiering in the Army of the Lord , etc Subject: Re: Communism In-Reply-To: <20030210032643.GV60203@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20030210032920.Y88765-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did you not make twinkie FW of the polytarp conference, despite: a) His obvious intent to ruin it; and b) more people wanting styles to beFW? On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > [trimming obviously disinterested parties] > > On Monday, 10 February 2003 at 0:38:41 +0000, David A. Hoffman wrote: > > Certainly, Greg Russo has commited a grave injustice in making Kevin FW of > > the polytarp conference. I demand excision of this. > > What on earth is this about? > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 0:32: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4E237B401 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8DF43FDD for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:30:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1A8UdoH005212; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:30:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1A8UcrL005211; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:30:38 -0800 From: David Schultz To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030210083038.GA5165@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Marc G. Fournier" , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <20030209193250.GA22019@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209153407.M7884@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030209153407.M7884@hub.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Marc G. Fournier : > On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > As I understand, all this is essentially impossible to do in GNATS, and > > things are going to get worse. > > 'K, one thing that I don't recall when we investigated Bugzilla way back > when ... GNaTs has a 'send-pr' functionality that is installed by default, > so that submitting bug reports is integrated as part of each release? > > And, I think, the biggest nightmare ... how do you switch over from GNaTs > -> Bugzilla without losing a *very* large portion of your user base? > You'd need some sort of 'GNaTs Report -> Bugzilla Entry' gateway so that > users of older versions would still have acess ... Given that they've figured out how to convert entire GNATS databases to Bugzilla databases automatically, I'm sure backwards compatibility for new bug reports could be implemented. Besides, everyone and his dog uses the web these days, so despite how much I hate the web, I have to say that the worst case is that people with old versions are annoyed when they are forced to use lynx or (heaven forbid) a mouse. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 17:59:45 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD6137B401; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB66243F85; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:59:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0213.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.213] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18iPhz-0003Af-00; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:59:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4858BA.79ED0126@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:58:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: oceanare pte ltd , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: matthew dillon References: <200302102159.h1ALxO126845@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e938efa1edf58c26ee1819c5eea70d67387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Do you unsubscribe from mailing lists you merely monitor for > > interesting content, rather than subscribing to them, when some > > jerk fills up your POP3 maildrop because they have an axe to > > grind, and, as a result, mail which you consider "important", > > compared to the list traffic, bounces? > > I don't use POP3, precisely because of that reason. Do you? What you do or not do is irrelevent to the fact that some people can not obtain service that doesn't involve their email piling up somewhere it has to be downloaded from. In addition, not everyone can run a mail server, for lack of IPv4 address space, and due to service provider restrictions on the ability to run servers on their network connections due to active firewalling to create an artificial tiering of pricing, while avoiding the oversight of the PUC by not seperating it into a new tarrif group. > > People who advocate "receiver filtering" (either of the active > > variety, or of the "just ignore" variety) is the answer to all > > SPAM-like problems apparently do not understand the realities > > of many people using pull-based rather than push-based email > > transports. > > We do understand those realities, which is why we contend that > pull-based systems aren't the correct technology to use for receiving > randomly ubiquitous content such as humans are likely to generate. Until the technologies are no longer being deployed against new users, live in the world as it is, not as you wish it were. > I recognize that some people are unable to leave their POP client > connected 24/7 with "leave mail on server" unchecked and with > a scan rate of "once every 2 minutes". Perhaps a digested form > of the mailing list or a web browsable archive should exist for > those people's needs? The problem is that a denial of service attack can be successful, even in that case, by using a sufficiently large message size, or a sufficiently high message frequency, or a combination of the two (e.g. the recent troll repetitive mailings that cause this thread to be started were once-a-second, from my reading of the email headers). How is it that you suggest people defend against people with bigger pipes for shoving messages out than people have for messages coming in? In the limit, the same argument will apply to push-based systems, eventually, since you can not RED-queue persistent TCP connections, only incoming connection requests. > The technology is supposed to serve you, not dictate how you > are supposed to communicate. Feeel free to correct it, and every exisitng instance of it on the Internet, and then, after you have done that, get back to me, and I may indeed be willing to agree with your arguments. NB: If you are going to deal with this, then please, at the same time, fix the FIN-WAIT-2 problem, which is caused by a protocol design error in TCP, which requires two responses to a single request, with no way for the requester to re-request the first of the two responses. > > Please understand the technology involved before telling people > > how they should use it. > > Please understand the people involved before attempting to force > people to behave based on a particular choice of technology. =) The technology used dictates the permissable behaviours of the people using it; whether you like that fact or not, it is nonetheless true. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 18:13:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F22637B401 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EF443F85 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1B2DKPU012609; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:13:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4858BA.79ED0126@mindspring.com> References: <200302102159.h1ALxO126845@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> <3E4858BA.79ED0126@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:13:20 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: matthew dillon Cc: oceanare pte ltd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ -hackers trimmed, because I'm sure they couldn't care less about this topic ] At 5:58 PM -0800 2003/02/10, Terry Lambert quotes Dave Hayes: > Dave Hayes wrote: >> Terry Lambert writes: >> > Do you unsubscribe from mailing lists you merely monitor for >> > interesting content, rather than subscribing to them, when some >> > jerk fills up your POP3 maildrop because they have an axe to >> > grind, and, as a result, mail which you consider "important", >> > compared to the list traffic, bounces? >> >> I don't use POP3, precisely because of that reason. Do you? What on Ghu's green earth does POP3 or IMAP make a difference? Would you really rather have a push-based system, where I can force you to take whatever I want to send you and at precisely the time I want to send it to you?!? Okay, let's say you use an interactive mail system. How do you get your mail? It still has to queue up somewhere, unless you've got a 24x7 direct feed into your brain, and you can guarantee that this feed has more bandwidth than the entire sum total bandwidth of all networks world-wide. >> > People who advocate "receiver filtering" (either of the active >> > variety, or of the "just ignore" variety) is the answer to all >> > SPAM-like problems apparently do not understand the realities >> > of many people using pull-based rather than push-based email >> > transports. >> >> We do understand those realities, which is why we contend that >> pull-based systems aren't the correct technology to use for receiving >> randomly ubiquitous content such as humans are likely to generate. And you would substitute what? Instant messaging?!? > How is it that you suggest people defend against people with > bigger pipes for shoving messages out than people have for > messages coming in? In the limit, the same argument will apply > to push-based systems, eventually, since you can not RED-queue > persistent TCP connections, only incoming connection requests. Hell, forget people with bigger pipes doing this sort of crap. How about a whole shedload of ankle-biters, all deciding that they want to ping your router at the same time? Put enough thousands of them together, and they can take down any site on the 'net. We learned this lesson the hard way at AOL. There simply is absolutely no way you can protect yourself against a concerted attack by a sufficiently motivated and empowered person or group. The absolute best possible you can hope for is to reduce the probability of a worst-case scenario, and to reduce the potential fallout when you are hit with one. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 18:24:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5498737B401 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C2B643FA3 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from temperanza@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 29919 invoked by uid 417); 11 Feb 2003 02:24:24 -0000 Received: from tap-.softhome.net (HELO jive.SoftHome.net) (172.16.2.22) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 11 Feb 2003 02:24:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 5309 invoked by uid 417); 11 Feb 2003 02:24:24 -0000 Received: from adsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO dsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) (63.194.84.111) by 192.168.0.30 with SMTP; 11 Feb 2003 02:24:24 -0000 Received: from tomoyo (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:24:20 -0800 (PST)dsl-63-194-84-111.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (8.12.7/8.12.6) with SMTP id h1B2OKdh047605 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:24:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from temperanza@softhome.net) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:24:20 -0800 From: La Temperanza To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-Id: <20030210182420.15c03393.temperanza@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My two cents on Bugzilla: Having to register to report a minor bug is annoying, and has discouraged me from doing so in the past. I suppose lazy people like me are unlikely to submit high-quality reports anyway, and so that's probably why it's required at most projects. Your call if you ever make the big move. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 19: 1: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 2D0BA37B401; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:01:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:01:01 -0600 From: Juli Mallett To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: languages Message-ID: <20030210210101.A30496@FreeBSD.org> References: <20030209181722.GA19704@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <200302091826.h19IQBaX035066@grimreaper.grondar.org> <200302091820.h19IKpaX034953@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030209184658.GA19887@papagena.rockefeller.edu>; from rsidd@online.fr on Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 01:46:58PM -0500 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Rahul Siddharthan [ Data: 2003-02-09 ] [ Subjecte: Re: languages ] > Mark Murray wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > All right, show me where in the XML 1.0 specification the > > > interpretation of the following snippet of XML described: > > Presumably in some DTD somewhere? That's possible with XML (hence > "extensible") > > > Where in a dictionary is the meaning of Jabberwocky explained? > > > > 'Twas brillig. and the slithy toves did gimble on the gyre.... > > > > Language is a structure, not necessarily a meaning. > > Well, it's explained later in "Through the looking glass", and some > of it even got into the dictionary later ("chortle", "galumph"). > > The newspeak words in Burgess's "A clockwork orange" aren't in fact > explained anywhere -- the reader understands them by context. But > they still have a meaning. Ditto with some of Edward Lear's nonsense. Actually, the tounge of the nadsats is explained well as an appendix to some editions. -- Juli Mallett AIM: BSDFlata -- IRC: juli on EFnet OpenDarwin, Mono, FreeBSD Developer ircd-hybrid Developer, EFnet addict FreeBSD on MIPS-Anything on FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 19:29:37 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2ABB37B401 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008E743FA3 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18iR71-0003bi-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:29:35 -0800 Received: (qmail 1272 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Feb 2003 03:29:32 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 22:29:32 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Message-ID: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > Okay, let's say you use an interactive mail system. How do you > get your mail? It still has to queue up somewhere, unless you've got > a 24x7 direct feed into your brain, and you can guarantee that this > feed has more bandwidth than the entire sum total bandwidth of all > networks world-wide. http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or even earlier... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 23: 6: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4558D37B406 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobile.hub.org (u173n136.eastlink.ca [24.224.173.136]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA4543FB1 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: by mobile.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0580C3F4B; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:23:52 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8783F46; Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:23:52 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:23:52 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker X-X-Sender: scrappy@localhost To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) In-Reply-To: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Message-ID: <20030209151407.N548@localhost> References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Both GNOME and KDE have switched to it recently, finding their old bug > system (debbugs, I think) didn't scale. In fact it seems to have very > useful features, like handling of duplicates, dependency tracking of > bugs, etc, which would (I presume) reduce the logjam quite a bit. The > couple of times I submitted Mozilla bugs, I was impressed by the rapid > response (in one case it was a duplicate, and flagged as that within > minutes of my sending it). Its not so much the bug tracking system that is the problem ... we (the PostgreSQL project) tried, at one point in time, to implement our own, web based one, and found that altho the problems were getting addressed and fixed, none of the developers were going in and closing the tickets afterwards ... With the scale of FreeBSD, in comparison, I imagine that a very very large percentage of bugs in GNaTs are those that have long been fixed, but the tickets never closed ... or have become useless ... For example, take a look at the oldest Critical ticket ... its from '98 *and* deals with v3.x ... chances are the user has long since moved on to newer hardware (deals with the Cyrix CPU) or moved away from 3.x to the newer versions ... What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed ... for instance, there are 64 tickets that come up as 2.x Only ... and 145 that are 3.x only ... a drop in the bucket compared to the 2676 taht are currently in there, but, drop's add up to fill that bucket ;( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 1:55:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB7237B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:55:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA7B43FA3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:55:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0050.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.50] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18iX8I-0002Lw-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:55:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3E48C832.E9351F13@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:53:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon) References: <200302110511.h1B5BC130043@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48bed5174541b5a7c23770088565cfd0d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: [ ... Blah blah blah ... SPAM is good for you ... blah blah blah ... there is no such thing as bad information .... blah blah blah ... denial of service attacks don't exist ... blah blah blah ... if everyone in the world were on the same mailing list, you'd have the same problem and be unable to fix it, so there! ... blah blah blah ... ] > I might actually admit you were correct about a couple of your > assertions involving game theory if I could find the references > to which you speak. Here is a reading list, in no particular order; I've kept it to English, given that that's the language of this list: Nonlinear Dynamics, Mathematical Biology and Social Science (Santa Fe Institute Series, Lecture Notes, Vol 4) Joshua M. Epstein Perseus Publishing ISBN: 0201419882 Game Theory: A Nontechnical Introduction Morton D. Davis, Langdon Davis Dover Publications ISBN: 0486296725 The Economy As an Evolving Complex System (Sante Fe Institute Studies in the Sciences of Complexity, Vol 5) Philip W. Anderson, David Pines Westview Press ISBN: 0201156857 A First Course on Zero Sum Repeated Games Sylvain Sorin Springer Verlag ISBN: 3540430288 The Calculus of Conventional War: Dynamic Analysis Without Lanchester Theory (Studies in Defense Policy) Joshua M. Epstein The Brookings Institute ISBN: 0815724519 The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution Stuart A. Kauffman Oxford University Press ISBN: 0195079515 The Selfish Gene Richard Dawkins Oxford University Press ISBN: 0192860925 Linked: The New Science of Networks Albert-L=E1szl=F3 Barab=E1si Perseus Publishing ISBN: 0738206679 Generalized Linear Models, Second Edition Peter McCullagh, J. A. Nelder CRC Press ISBN: 0412317605 The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation Matt Ridley Penguin USA ISBN: 0140264450 Bionomics: Economy As Ecosystem Michael Rothschild Henry Holt ASIN: 0805019790 Defense Positioning and Geometry: Rules for a World With Low Force Levels Raj Gupta The Brookings Institute ISBN: 0815733127 The Evolution of Cooperation Robert Axelrod Basic Books ISBN: 0465021212 = > >> > Please understand the technology involved before telling people > >> > how they should use it. > >> > >> Please understand the people involved before attempting to force > >> people to behave based on a particular choice of technology. =3D) > > > > The technology used dictates the permissable behaviours of > > the people using it; > = > This is obviously false, since people constantly behave otherwise. > Regardless, this should never be true, since technology is a servant, > not a master. Tell that to gravity. While you are at it, add the following on the emergent properties of complex systems: Growing Artificial Societies: Social Science from the Bottom Up Joshua M. Epstein, 2050 Project, Robert L. Axtell MIT Press ISBN: 0262550253 The Emergence of Everything: How the World Became Complex Harold J. Morowitz Oxford University Press ISBN: 019513513X Emergence Steven Johnson Touchstone Books ISBN: 0684868768 Smart Mobs: The Next Social Revolution Howard Rheingold Perseus Publishing ISBN: 0738206083 -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 4: 2:24 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9E937B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 04:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B4643F3F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 04:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07199; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 16796; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:59:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1BC2Dc06677; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11418; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:10 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200302110516.h1B5GV130128@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> References: <200302110516.h1B5GV130128@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:40:44 +0100 To: Dave Hayes From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: matthew dillon Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:16 PM -0800 2003/02/10, Dave Hayes wrote: >> And you would substitute what? Instant messaging?!? > > Right now, I'm not sure I would substitute anything. I simply notice > most normal people pick their mode of communication, and care nothing > for the technical consequences. Given this observation, a requirement > for the ideal messaging system would be graceful handling of resource > allocation. Before you can force everyone to use your fair allocation system, you first have to remove all other options available to them. I don't see how anyone can effectively do this on the Internet. > I agree. That is why I'm surprised when communities get blustered over > someone sending too much traffic. It's like getting indignant when > someone is over the speed limit. Why waste the energy? If the person is driving recklessly and endangering other people, that would be something to get angry about. If they're in the middle of the Great Salt Flats, then who gives a flying mongolian cluster sexual interforce? ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 4: 2:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527D537B405 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 04:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D001443FAF for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 04:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07184; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 16371; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:59:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1BC28c06657; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11404; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:02:07 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:37:46 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:29 PM -0500 2003/02/10, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html > OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at > present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or > even earlier... Okay, so you're going to replace the e-mail system for the entire Internet. You're going to go to local storage on the sender's system, but then you still have to generate messages to be sent to the recipients to tell them to come pick up their mail -- how do you do that? In and of itself, notices like this could be a DOS or DDOS, because you have the same criteria for "Hey, you've got e-mail over here that you need to come pick up" as you do for regular e-mail today. Granted, the messages would be smaller, but their sheer number could still be a DOS or DDOS. There are lots and lots of really big questions that haven't been answered about this kind of solution. This list (from the bottom of this page) is just beginning to think about scratching the surface: How should receivers be identified? How will the sender's ISP find the receiver's ISP? Recipients will want to move transparently from one host to another. How should senders be identified? How will the receiver find the sender's ISP? Recipients will want to provide better handling to known senders; in the long run, recipients will want to debit unknown senders. How should messages be identified? How should messages be downloaded? Messages could be retrieved through HTTP, but an NFS/FSP-style UDP-based protocol would be much more resistant to denial of service. How should notifications, messages, and confirmations be protected against espionage and sabotage? DH authenticators seem more appropriate than public-key signatures for private email; they're also much faster and just as convenient. How should the sender create a message? How should the receiver download a list of notifications? What format should messages have? Indeed, I'd be interested to know if there is a single analog anywhere in the world for this kind of system. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 6:41: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E01537B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732E243F85 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ibao-0001aG-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 06:41:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 2422 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Feb 2003 14:40:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:40:57 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Message-ID: <20030211144057.GA2382@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Feb 11, 2003 at 12:37:46: > At 10:29 PM -0500 2003/02/10, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html > > OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at > > present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or > > even earlier... > > Okay, so you're going to replace the e-mail system for the entire > Internet. You're going to go to local storage on the sender's > system, but then you still have to generate messages to be sent to > the recipients to tell them to come pick up their mail -- how do you > do that? > > In and of itself, notices like this could be a DOS or DDOS, > because you have the same criteria for "Hey, you've got e-mail over > here that you need to come pick up" as you do for regular e-mail > today. Granted, the messages would be smaller, but their sheer > number could still be a DOS or DDOS. But I can now block known spammers from even trying to connect, because they can no longer relay their mail and thus can't hide their tracks. Equally important, the law can catch up with the spammers because they can't hide their tracks. You're perfectly correct that it's hard to remove all other options for existing users, but I think the spammers will succeed in that. In fact, I give them until 2007. I'm not saying the solution is DJB's system (though I like it in principle), it's more likely to be some form of better authentication for senders, reduced ability to forge headers etc. One way to transition to a new system would be for mailservers to support both systems for a while, and indicate their support by their HELO greeting. Perhaps some indication can also be put in the MX records. Once a new system is in place, and supported by the big guys (sendmail and Microsoft would be enough), I suspect transition would be pretty fast. Look how quickly the world got rid of open relays: back in 1996 nearly every mail server was an open relay, now the spammers have a hard time finding one. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 9:18:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F06D37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E7E43F85 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Trader.Alerts@verizon.net) Received: from user-37ka498.dialup.mindspring.com ([207.69.17.40] helo=xandor-prime.Xandor.local) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18idxg-0007Ne-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:12:48 -0800 Received: from relay.verizon.net (msfc03-dai-tx-22-213.rasserver.net [163.179.133.213]) by xandor-prime.Xandor.local with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 1X92TB12; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:49:07 -0500 Message-ID: <00001eb973be$000011f3$00003be6@relay.verizon.net> To: From: "Alert Service" Subject: Real Estate Stocks: Safe Haven for Investors Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:49:26 -1800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: Trader.Alerts@verizon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.503 (Entity 5.501) Sensitivity: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SPECIAL ALERT
        =             &= nbsp;    Feb. 2003 Edition  - Featuring CNN Mon= ey and Reuters
<= /tr>
Each month Wall Street Monthly analysts study, re= search, and examine hundreds of NASDAQ stocks, in an effort to pinpoint th= e one with the most promise.

Th= is month's pick : World Associates Inc.

Symbol: WAIV

Current Price: $0.15

Opinion: Str= ong Buy

Mortgage rat= es have dipped to levels not seen since 1965 and stock markets are in a th= ree-year swoon. This has fueled home buying and building, making the secto= r one of the rare bright spots in a slumping U.S. economy. Mor= e.....

  The Housing Market is= Red Hot ! Construction spending rose 0.3% in November, helped by record a= ctivity in the red-hot housing market, the government reported.  = ;  More.....

  The median price of new and existin= g homes sold in San Bernardino County during November skyrocketed 18.2 per= cent from a year earlier.    More.....<= /P>

The results are in. Last year was another record-setting year for= real estate thanks to an economy with low interest rates.  &nbs= p; More.....

Re= cent News:

 Highlights of Current and Future Success:

 - Rec= ently acquired more than $10 M in real estate assets

 - Projected sales of $100,000,000 over four years

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> - More than $5M in earnings projected for eac= h of 2003 and 2004

 -  Real estat= e may provide assets that allow for a listing on a major exchange

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> - Incorporating environmentally friendly and = sustainable technologies

<= b>WAIV Aims High, Determined To Succ= eed:

World is extending th= e real estate concept of "highest and best use" to include quali= ty of life considerations. A "higher and better" use for real pr= operty is to find the very most profitable use that also provides a benefi= cial impact to the community and environment. World believes that this app= roach will be a key to successful real property development in the future.=

<= table cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D3 width=3D340 border=3D0 height=3D76><= tr>A Closer Look:
World Associates, Inc. (World) was founded in 1990 and it = has evolved into a fully integrated real estate enterprise. World is combi= ning access to the capital markets, a competency with Internet technology,= a portfolio of sustainable technologies, and the inherent strength of rea= l estate as a means of creating shareholder value. Early in 2002 World acq= uired more than $10 million in real estate assets. The company is negotiat= ing other joint venture opportunities and alliances, and it will continue = to expand it's growing portfolio of assets to develop.

Objective= :

The company=FFFFFF92s immediate objective is to = execute a plan of development for it's current assets that include more th= an 300 acres of property valued at more than $10,000,000. When fully devel= oped, the property will support more than 700 homes representing more than= $100,000,000 in total sales over the next four years. The company will co= ntinue to add to the assets it owns, focusing on land development, afforda= ble housing, 55+ housing, and infill housing.

= = Points to Consider:

  • This stock is based on r= eal estate, the traditional hard asset
    • Manufactured housing is the future-New ho= mes cost up to 35% less than regular construction
  • Affordable housing will always be in demand=
  • This is an early stage opportun= ity with good upside potential
  •  Rain or Shine, = manufactured housing construction continues without delay from weather con= ditions.

Conclusion:

Real estate is the tra= ditional hard asset and it is the foundation of World Associates, Inc. The= strength and potential for growth embodied by the current real estate mar= ket, dictates that this sector be in the spotlight for creating value.=

The Savvy Investor chooses its first pick of the New Year - Worl= d Associates Inc. (WAIV). With their strategic positioning and acquisition= s WAIV is sure to move to the forefront of the sector. In an unstable mark= et - its a necessity to add strong stocks to your portfolio.

= This has been the February Edition of The Savvy Investor Newsletter.

Editing Chairman

Joi= n our premiere update and get a sneak preview of upcoming reports. = <= /p>

Disclaimer:

The Savvy Investor Newsletter provides= information on selected companies that it believes has investment potenti= al. The&nbs= p; Savvy Investor Newsletter is not a registere= d investment advisor or broker - dealer. This report is provided as an inf= ormation service only, and the statements and opinions in this report shou= ld not be construed as an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any securit= y. Savvy In= vestor Newsletter accepts no liability for any loss = arising from an investors reliance on or use of this report. An investment= in WAIV is considered to be highly speculative and should not be consider= ed unless a person can afford a complete loss of investment. The Savvy Investor Newsl= etter  has been retained to distribute this rep= ort on WAIV and has been paid fifteen hundred dollars by a third party. Th= is report involves forward looking statements, which involve risk, and unc= ertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially from those s= et forth in the forward - looking statements. For further details concerni= ng these risks and uncertainties, see the SEC filings of WAIV including th= e company's most recent annual and quarte= rly reports.

If you feel that this service is no longer o= f benefit to you, and you do not want to be notified along with the invest= ors on this list, please  CLICK HERE<= /font> NOTE: By blocking your email address from the= recipients you will no longer receive your FREE company advisory nor your= FREE company update in the Future.
To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 10:30:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85ED737B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF50C43F75 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <2003021118305205300h2gbae>; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:30:52 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1BIT45F025243; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:29:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1BISkg4025238; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 11 Feb 2003 10:28:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20030209151407.N548@localhost> Message-ID: <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Hermit Hacker writes: > What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be > established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed > ... How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this: PRs older than 2 years shall be marked "suspended", where "older" is measured from the last PR log activity which a committer deems to indicate that the PR might still be valid for any OS version. (This allows PRs to be "refreshed".) PRs older than 4 years shall be marked "closed" if 10 minutes of research by a committer does not convince him that any of the PR's problems is, more likely than not, a problem in a recent release, where "older" is measured from the creation date of the PR. (This allows old PRs to be closed, even if recently "refreshed".) The numbers might be too small. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 15: 6: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF73E37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D354943F3F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:05:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0132.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ijTH-0002WO-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:05:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:04:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a42b81594b8a7e759a99917cd0bc80a029350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:29 PM -0500 2003/02/10, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html > > OK, it's now 2003. Still, nice idea. If spam continues to grow at > > present rates, some such scheme may become necessary by 2010 or > > even earlier... > > Okay, so you're going to replace the e-mail system for the entire > Internet. You're going to go to local storage on the sender's > system, but then you still have to generate messages to be sent to > the recipients to tell them to come pick up their mail -- how do you > do that? It's even better than that. Assume you have smaller, fixed-sized messages: then what you are really talking about is that the sending machine is the storing machine, giving you two avenues of attack for a given host. If you assume that they aren't fixed sized, then you have to send variable-length location data along with the message, rather than using the peer identity in order to obtain the location of the message identified. At that point, the difference between sending a message to its destination and sending a notification of the location of a message to its destination, is moot: you can launch the same denial of service attack that you could launch if you were sending actual messages, rather than pointers to messages. If we go back to the fixed length message case, then you can launch exactly the same attack that the original message that inspired this thread: a flood attack. There are actually several advantages to the approach of sending messages about messages, rather than the messages themselves: 1) The amplification effect is reduced. Thus it is very hard to overflow someone's available space with big messages, as opposed to small ones, where you are overflowing their display client. 2) Messages are stored once, instead of messages being stored multiple times. This would be useful, for example, for an mail server where a large attachment is sent to multiple recipients, such that the recipients were not all listed on a single message instance (if they were a single instance, the server could coelesce them anyway, and store only a single copy). 3) You could replace the storage with a flood-fill mechanism, using a cryptographic storage system, so that the data could be replicated (e.g. "usenet"). This would make it much harder to do any but traffic analysis. 4) You can delete messages after you have sent them. 5) You get notification of the message being retrieved, with no way for the recipient to avoid it (I guess this is what Dan *really* wants out of this... ;^)), but it's not enough to serve court papers. Is this the only way to get these advantages? Not really; off the top of my head, it's obvious that: o Technically, you could probably do #2 anyway, if the mail server were to coelesce stored copies by message ID and matching MD5 hash, so it's not that great a deal. o The storage mechanism is kind of irrelevant, since it could be used anyway, for maildrops, without introducing new SMTP/transport semantics. For example, there is already a mechanism in the form of a MIME-Type that is an HTML reference which could implement this. o Why not just implement a distributed database backing store that could be used by aritrary front-end IMAP4 servers that could present views on it, and then use IMAP4 as the access mechanism fo clients? There are also numberous disadvantages; here are a few: 1) The problem with display, sorting, etc. of messages on various criteria still exists. For this to work, you would either have to pass along *minimally* all header information you would normally have passed anyway, OR you would need to contact every sending server everywhere, each time you perform a display update (which is impossible). 2) One possible sorting criteria is "message content" (e.g. I do not want to see messages whose bodies contain one of "the seven words you cannot say on television"). This would mean a need to access the complete message. 3) If the sending server store is offline, the message is unavailable, for the duration. 4) It is possible to "rewrite history", by changing the message on the storage server, after it has been seen. Fixing this required including MD5 or other cryptographic hashes, and even then you can only prove that the message that's there now is not the message that was there, not the contents of the message that *was* there. 5) The deletion "feature" assumes the recipient did not store a local copy. I suppose you could use Palladium for this? In that case, it destroys non-repudiation, which would make email useless for legally binding transactions. 6) The connections are outbound from the client to the message stores. This removes a level of firewall protection against incoming connections. While this is technically not any different than Microsoft Outlook, which starts sending messages to its rendering engine before having received the entire message body, for other mail clients that were written by qualified software engineers wo understand encapsulation, it makes them vulnerable to all of the "OutLook bugs" that users were only risking if they ran OutLook or similar clients. It effectively lowers the security bar to the least common denominator. 7) Etc. (I could go on for a very large number of these). > There are lots and lots of really big questions that haven't been > answered about this kind of solution. This list (from the bottom of > this page) is just beginning to think about scratching the surface: [ ... list ... ] These are all "doable" today, with existing infrastructure, no changes necessary, if you accept that the messages being sent are minimally the RFC822 headers, just without the normal body contents. > Indeed, I'd be interested to know if there is a single analog > anywhere in the world for this kind of system. 1) Lotus Notes. 2) Usenet, with cryptographically protected messages that can only be read by their intended recipient(s). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 15:12:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0DD37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDFE43F75 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0132.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ijZn-0003PZ-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:12:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E498309.46B2200F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:11:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon) References: <200302111244.h1BCiP133899@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a463b5a6dea81c8398cd9fdd6ce422b18a666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Dave Hayes wrote: > > [ ... Blah blah blah ... ] > > No wonder you have problems debating. I've said none of the above that > you've attributed. Obviously you are unable to read what I wrote > and meaningfully duplicate it in your head. =) I had a long message prepared to send, which refuted the naieve assertions in your previous message, but I did not send it. > > [ huge list of books ] > > Thank you. That's not a "huge list of books", that's "two weeks worth of reading, four if you insist on going through all the math yourself". > >> > The technology used dictates the permissable behaviours of > >> > the people using it; > >> > >> This is obviously false, since people constantly behave otherwise. > >> Regardless, this should never be true, since technology is a servant, > >> not a master. > > > > Tell that to gravity. > > You are telling me gravity is a technology? No, I'm telling you the constraints of the technology available for use have the same effect on its application as the laws of physics have on people. For example, if all mail servers will only accept 5 messages per hour, and you are constrained to send outbound messages through your ISP's mail server, then no matter what kind of mail client you have, the maximum number of messages you will ever be able to send is 5 per hour, period. It might as well be a law of physics, as far as you are concerned. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 15:17:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44CD37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5813643FA3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0132.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.132] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ijev-00045F-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:17:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3E498447.5BFF1944@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:16:23 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030211144057.GA2382@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a463b5a6dea81c839823a9232ba844d2f8666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But I can now block known spammers from even trying to connect, > because they can no longer relay their mail and thus can't hide their > tracks. > > Equally important, the law can catch up with the spammers because they > can't hide their tracks. [ ... ] If the intent is to stop SPAM'mers, then there are easier, less intrusive protocol modifications available, that can work, even if some people never update their mail servers. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 15:23:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD6937B405 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD0F43F93 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0132.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.132] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ijkK-0000Vp-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:23:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3E498592.5E5BF4EE@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:21:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a463b5a6dea81c8398930d688daeb81d59350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > The Hermit Hacker writes: > > What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be > > established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed > > ... > > How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this: [ ... time-based, committer interest-based policies ... ] > The numbers might be too small. The problem with this approach is that it's possible to ignore a PR to make it go away, without the underlying problem being repaired/acknowledged. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 16:54:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F7B37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47BA43F75 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a220.otenet.gr [212.205.215.220]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1C0sg4A025058; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:54:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h1C0semK001187; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:54:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) id h1BJ6EqC002439; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:06:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:06:14 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030211190614.GA2153@gothmog.gr> Reply-To: bugbusters@freebsd.org Mail-Followup-To: bugbusters@freebsd.org References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ## Redirected to bugbusters, the PR handling team. ## Please honor the Mail-Followup-To and Reply-To headers. On 2003-02-11 10:28, "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this: > > PRs older than 2 years shall be marked "suspended", where "older" is > measured from the last PR log activity which a committer deems to > indicate that the PR might still be valid for any OS version. > > (This allows PRs to be "refreshed".) > > PRs older than 4 years shall be marked "closed" if 10 minutes of > research by a committer does not convince him that any of the PR's > problems is, more likely than not, a problem in a recent release, > where "older" is measured from the creation date of the PR. Interesting stuff. I've been toying around with the idea of an automated ``close and send a gentle reply to the originator'' script for feedback PRs that are more than 3-4 months old and no activity has appeared in the audit trail since the last transition to feedback. If 3-4 months seems too short, we can change it to 1 year or more. The reasoning behind an automated close of the PR is that if the originator of the PR has falled off the face of the earth, lost net connectivity and nobody else picked up the problem report, then it's probably something nobody cares about so we shouldn't waste time on it. Then all it would take for PRs to slowly rot and close would be that committers set the already open PRs to the feedback state if they seem to be too old to be relevant to current and supported releases. Does this look any good as an idea? - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 17:18:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0671737B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C8B43FB1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:18:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E818B429B; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:18:02 -0400 (AST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:18:02 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) In-Reply-To: <3E498592.5E5BF4EE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030211211426.A43952@hub.org> References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> <3E498592.5E5BF4EE@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > The Hermit Hacker writes: > > > What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be > > > established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed > > > ... > > > > How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this: > > [ ... time-based, committer interest-based policies ... ] > > > The numbers might be too small. > > The problem with this approach is that it's possible to ignore > a PR to make it go away, without the underlying problem being > repaired/acknowledged. And that is different then now, leaving it open? How many PRs right now contain patches that ppl have 'ignored' and, as a result, are no longer even relevant to the code? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 18:15:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3104A37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F32C43FA3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:15:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with ESMTP id <2003021202154205300a23t8e>; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:15:42 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1C2Dp5F030838; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1C2Djfx030835; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:13:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> <3E498592.5E5BF4EE@mindspring.com> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 11 Feb 2003 18:13:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3E498592.5E5BF4EE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The problem with this approach is that it's possible to ignore > a PR to make it go away, without the underlying problem being > repaired/acknowledged. No, the approach was purposely designed to avoid that. It takes either a violation of the policy or at least 10 minutes of a committer's attention and a manual "close" action to make a PR go away. The approach will no-doubt result in some good PRs being sent away, because there will be some 10-minute closers who do it carelessly, or just don't have enough time, but that would be considered an acceptable cost for the benefit of not having so many old PRs that people tend to just ignore them all. Any automatic scheme is too likely to see too many good PRs go away; some kind of review and decision should be required. (Some kind of rating system might be even better, in theory, but seems less likely to be used well.) You also want a new scheme that defaults to the current scheme if people don't support the new scheme. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 18:17:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCF937B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAA643FCB for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:17:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1C2HXPY003145; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:17:42 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200302111248.h1BCm7133936@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> References: <200302111248.h1BCm7133936@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:02:57 +0100 To: Dave Hayes From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: matthew dillon Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:48 AM -0800 2003/02/11, Dave Hayes wrote: >> Before you can force everyone to use your fair allocation >> system, > > The notion of "force" is misleading when dealing with the internet. That's my point. > No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Incentivizing, now that's > different. You can create all the incentives you want to try to keep people from making assassination attempts on the president, but you'll never completely stop them. You may be able to reduce the probability and the frequency of actual known attempts, but that's the best you can hope for. > Not for me. That would be something to get off the freeway about. ;) > A better use of the energy, wouldn't you agree? Nope. I've got a right to be there, too. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 18:18: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4694A37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:17:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B73A43F85 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1C2HXPa003145; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:17:48 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030211144057.GA2382@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030211144057.GA2382@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:13:01 +0100 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:40 AM -0500 2003/02/11, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But I can now block known spammers from even trying to connect, > because they can no longer relay their mail and thus can't hide their > tracks. Not true. They could create messages to be picked up anywhere in the world, and then bombard you with notices every second. There has to be an additional level of authentication built into that system which is not typically present in mail systems today. Moreover, not only do you need to have virtually unbreakable proof between the client and the system, you also need to have virtually unbreakable proof between the system and the recipient. Both are easily subverted. Moreover, if we had this level of authentication built into the existing mail system, we could improve a lot more things a lot faster than by trying to completely change how e-mail works across the entire Internet. > Equally important, the law can catch up with the spammers because they > can't hide their tracks. Again, not true. See above. This proposal *may* create a situation where this sort of thing might exist, but there's a lot more that would need to be added before you could be virtually certain. > One way to transition to a new system would be for mailservers to > support both systems for a while, and indicate their support by their > HELO greeting. Perhaps some indication can also be put in the MX > records. Synchronous meta-data updates are the #1 kill for most mail systems today. You don't improve this situation by making the messages/notices smaller, more frequent, and then tacking on a secondary transmission channel. I would have thought people would have learned their lesson with ftp. > Once a new system is in place, and supported by the big guys (sendmail > and Microsoft would be enough), I suspect transition would be pretty > fast. Not true. First off, Microsoft would never support the same standard as everyone else, unless everyone else adopted the Microsoft standard. Thinking about this some more, you're basically talking about single-instance message store, a topic that Nick and I discussed in depth for my talk at LISA 2000. This is fundamentally unscalable, and places many orders of magnitude more requirements for reliability on the system than are in place today. > Look how quickly the world got rid of open relays: back in 1996 > nearly every mail server was an open relay, now the spammers have a > hard time finding one. Not at all. The number of open relays may be going down, but spammers can still easily find enough to do the damage, and that's for the people that actually subscribe to the appropriate open-relay blacklists. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 18:18: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FFFA37B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8F943F85 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:18:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1C2HXPe003145; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:17:59 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:24:06 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:04 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Terry Lambert wrote: >> There are lots and lots of really big questions that haven't been >> answered about this kind of solution. This list (from the bottom of >> this page) is just beginning to think about scratching the surface: > > [ ... list ... ] > > These are all "doable" today, with existing infrastructure, no > changes necessary, if you accept that the messages being sent > are minimally the RFC822 headers, just without the normal body > contents. Isn't e-mail unreliable and slow enough that we don't really want to make this situation an order of magnitude worse, because now we have to send many smaller notices about a message we have waiting for one or more recipients, and then we have to wait for them to come pick it up? Why not just give everyone in the world an IMAP account on your mail server and make everyone use shared folders? >> Indeed, I'd be interested to know if there is a single analog >> anywhere in the world for this kind of system. > > 1) Lotus Notes. No, not really. Besides, we all know how poorly LAN e-mail packages scale. Been there, done that. > 2) Usenet, with cryptographically protected messages > that can only be read by their intended recipient(s). Again, not really. Nice idea, but the OP said that the messages themselves were never sent, only notices -- the message bodies would then be retrieved via a pull mechanism. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 18:18: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B8037B405 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDC543FAF for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:18:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1C2HXPc003145; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:17:55 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:20:38 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:04 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Terry Lambert wrote: > 2) Messages are stored once, instead of messages being > stored multiple times. This would be useful, for > example, for an mail server where a large attachment is > sent to multiple recipients, such that the recipients > were not all listed on a single message instance (if > they were a single instance, the server could coelesce > them anyway, and store only a single copy). In practice, as we scale up the system, this really isn't that useful. See and . Moreover, do you know how painful it is to lose a cc:Mail, Lotus Notes, Microsoft Mail, or Microsoft Exchange database? You can instantly toast all mail for all users on that post office. Of course, you can only support about ~150 users per post office, but then you have to manage a great many more post offices and your TCO goes way, way up. How else do you think that Oracle can pitch their "Make Exchange Unbreakable" solution, where as damn bloody expensive as the hardware is that they base their solution on, the freakin' Oracle software licenses are actually more expensive, and yet still make the sale? They do it on TCO, and they do actually get the sales.... -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 18:35:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DC537B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41C943F75 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1C2Z6Dm005966; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:35:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1C2Z4MA005965; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:35:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:35:04 -0800 From: David Schultz To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030212023504.GA5931@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , The Hermit Hacker , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Gary W. Swearingen : > The Hermit Hacker writes: > > > What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be > > established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed > > ... > > How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this: > > PRs older than 2 years shall be marked "suspended", where "older" is > measured from the last PR log activity which a committer deems to > indicate that the PR might still be valid for any OS version. > > (This allows PRs to be "refreshed".) > > PRs older than 4 years shall be marked "closed" if 10 minutes of > research by a committer does not convince him that any of the PR's > problems is, more likely than not, a problem in a recent release, > where "older" is measured from the creation date of the PR. > > (This allows old PRs to be closed, even if recently "refreshed".) > > The numbers might be too small. I dislike the idea of making PR expiry automated in any way. A PR should be closed because the problem has been solved, or after an excuse is given as to why the problem will not be solved. If you start closing them and the best reason you can give is ``this problem has been around for too long'', people will get quite pissed off. Moreover, you're going to have to do a pretty darn good job of closing PRs to make the PR database any more navigable; a better approach to solving that problem is using a better database, like Bugzilla. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 19:23:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E318337B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3A043FA3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.140] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18inUb-0003mj-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:23:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E49BDDD.15E09827@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:22:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon) References: <200302112347.h1BNlY138346@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a468ce00c315b1942f5b1e44ff09caffdd93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > I had a long message prepared to send, which refuted the naieve > > assertions in your previous message, but I did not send it. > > Given you didn't understand me in the first place, I appreciate > your restraint. =) Your hubris is incredible. I understood you perfectly. To fail to agree with you is not always a result of a failure to understand you. > > No, I'm telling you the constraints of the technology available > > for use have the same effect on its application as the laws of > > physics have on people. > > Most people can't get around the laws of physics and run into them > headlong when trying, in any case you can accept the notion that no > one has provably done so. Many people can get around the "constraints" > of electronic communications technology and do so daily, examples of > this abound...as I'm sure you are aware. No, they do not. > The difference is in what we both mean by "constraints", which of > course you will assert should be the same for both of us. Yes, I do. > The notion of "permitted behavior" has never stopped some people > from behaving otherwise; it is this notion in fact which _causes_ > unpermitted behavior to exist. There's no law of physics here, > people can and will misbehave. The question is not whether they > should or will, but if you are prepared for it. It is not about permission, it is about possibility, for any given situation. By designing the situation, you design the constraints, and therefore you limit the possibilities for behaviour. You are talking about "rules". "Rules" are meaningless, in that compliance with "rules" is always voluntary upon the complying person, unless the rules constitute a subset of natural law. For example, one can break the "rule" that you are not allowed to spit on the sidewalk, because the laws of physics do not prohibit the act. But a "rule" which states "objects must not fall up, in a gravitational field" may not be disobeyed, even by the most willful child: that "rule" is enforced by the laws of physics. > > For example, if all mail servers will only accept 5 messages > > per hour, and you are constrained to send outbound messages > > through your ISP's mail server, then no matter what kind of mail > > client you have, the maximum number of messages you will ever be > > able to send is 5 per hour, period. It might as well be a law of > > physics, as far as you are concerned. > > Not if you find some hackable server on another ISP and set up your > email spam machine there. =) What part of "all" didn't you understand? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 19:33:50 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6D937B401; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDF543FAF; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.140] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ineb-0001vD-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:33:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3E49C045.E519DD90@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:32:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" , bugbusters@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction;-) References: <20030209185618.GA19962@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <20030209151407.N548@localhost> <2e1y2e7jtu.y2e@localhost.localdomain> <3E498592.5E5BF4EE@mindspring.com> <20030211211426.A43952@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a468ce00c315b1942f2fb7283e6f2c0196350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... redirected to 'bugbusters' ... ] "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The problem with this approach is that it's possible to ignore > > a PR to make it go away, without the underlying problem being > > repaired/acknowledged. > > And that is different then now, leaving it open? The information is not destroyed that the bug was never in fact actually resolved. If you want to have a "I can't fit it" or "I won't fix it" status for the bug, fine, but do not claim it is resolved when it can not be proven, via a regression test, that it is, in fact, resolved. > How many PRs right now contain patches that ppl have 'ignored' All open ones with patches attached, of course. > and, as a result, are no longer even relevant to the code? You probably really mean "the code is no longer relevent to the patch", since the patch has not changed in the interim; from the patch's point of view, that translates to one of: o that the code was changed by someone who did not properly maintain the patch o that the code was changed by someone who did not properly check for a patch o that the current process failed to "lock" the section of code that the patch applied to, because the current process has a bug -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 19:44:20 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 461D737B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A807243F93 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:44:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.140] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18inoj-0003uN-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:44:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:42:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43303ac83f34bea1d034f3e8e3e9723d7a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: [ ... single instance message stores ... ] > In practice, as we scale up the system, this really isn't that useful. > > See > > and > . Actually, I disagree with this presentation. There is an assumption of "sufficient storage" there in the first place, when in practice, sufficient storage is commonly a prime economic issue. If people were satisfied with the job "the big providers" were doing, there would be no little providers. As to the metadata updates: I'm not positive this is the case, though it is certainly the case in "sendmail" and certain other MTAs. It's really implementation dependent, I think, and the slide assumes a particular implementation. > Moreover, do you know how painful it is to lose a cc:Mail, Lotus > Notes, Microsoft Mail, or Microsoft Exchange database? You can > instantly toast all mail for all users on that post office. Of > course, you can only support about ~150 users per post office, but > then you have to manage a great many more post offices and your TCO > goes way, way up. The scaling issue at 150 is an implementation detail specific to the implementations you are referencing. My advice is "get some real software". 8-). You can scale something like this from Open Source components and about 3 months of concentrated coding to at least 50,000 per indivisible component cluster, and then throw hardware at it. The normal implementation to avoid single point of failure is replication of the data. At that point, the replication protocol itself becomes (essentially) a transport. The worst case failure mechanism, in that case, is a previously deleted message reappears. > How else do you think that Oracle can pitch their "Make Exchange > Unbreakable" solution, where as damn bloody expensive as the hardware > is that they base their solution on, the freakin' Oracle software > licenses are actually more expensive, and yet still make the sale? > They do it on TCO, and they do actually get the sales.... I think they do it on the basis of their name, and on the basis of the idea that "you can put any SQL server behind MS Exchange, so use ours, it's better than Microsoft's". I agree that, in one narrow view, this can translate to TCO, but it's not the major view that most people who are making the Buy Decision are coming from. Even coming from that point of view, you see mistakes made (e.g. Oracle vs. California). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 19:50:36 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7878737B401 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9A343F3F for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:50:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.140] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18inuo-000514-00; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:50:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:49:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43303ac83f34bea1ddda73eaa66847e092601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:04 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> There are lots and lots of really big questions that haven't been > >> answered about this kind of solution. This list (from the bottom of > >> this page) is just beginning to think about scratching the surface: > > > > [ ... list ... ] > > > > These are all "doable" today, with existing infrastructure, no > > changes necessary, if you accept that the messages being sent > > are minimally the RFC822 headers, just without the normal body > > contents. > > Isn't e-mail unreliable and slow enough that we don't really want > to make this situation an order of magnitude worse, because now we > have to send many smaller notices about a message we have waiting for > one or more recipients, and then we have to wait for them to come > pick it up? Why did you cut out my arguments against actually doing it, in your reply? 8-) 8-). > Why not just give everyone in the world an IMAP account on your > mail server and make everyone use shared folders? Security. Privacy. Concurrent access. Storage. Backup. You can actually get around all but "storage" and "backup", and those can be brute-forced. But you have to be willing to change IMAP4 semantics, slightly. > >> Indeed, I'd be interested to know if there is a single analog > >> anywhere in the world for this kind of system. > > > > 1) Lotus Notes. > > No, not really. Besides, we all know how poorly LAN e-mail > packages scale. Been there, done that. Just because the code you are familiar with was written by idiots, doesn't tar all code with the same brush. 8-). > > 2) Usenet, with cryptographically protected messages > > that can only be read by their intended recipient(s). > > Again, not really. Nice idea, but the OP said that the messages > themselves were never sent, only notices -- the message bodies would > then be retrieved via a pull mechanism. From a flood-filled, replicated store. I didn't say that the nodes containing the message replicas had to be local to the recipient. The usenet model is a good flood-fill replicated transport model. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 0: 3:29 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D054B37B409 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5A143F3F for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1C83Ija026397; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:03:18 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) with UUCP id h1C83IDq026396; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:03:18 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1C7x4aX084642; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:59:04 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200302120759.h1C7x4aX084642@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Rahul Siddharthan , Colin Percival , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:18:02 -0400." <20030211211426.A43952@hub.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:59:04 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE CC!! M "Marc G. Fournier" writes: > On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > The Hermit Hacker writes: > > > > What needs to be done is various 'cut off points' need to somehow be > > > > established ... for instance, anything dealing pre-4.x should be closed > > > > ... > > > > > > How about putting "policies" in the PR Guidelines something like this: > > > > [ ... time-based, committer interest-based policies ... ] > > > > > The numbers might be too small. > > > > The problem with this approach is that it's possible to ignore > > a PR to make it go away, without the underlying problem being > > repaired/acknowledged. > > And that is different then now, leaving it open? How many PRs right now > contain patches that ppl have 'ignored' and, as a result, are no longer > even relevant to the code? > -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 1:23:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFBF37B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0329E43FBD for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:23:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0043.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.43] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18it6h-0004bW-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:23:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4A1222.6383A1C3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:21:38 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon) References: <200302120844.h1C8iP141535@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4686e6b248cc565ddf290811d4cb6383c2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > > I understood you perfectly. > > Then why did you paraphrase what I said incorrectly? I paraphrased the *consequences* of what you said, were less than 100% of us to adopt your world view. We all have to choose to play the game by your rules, or the consequences of adopting your rules is a system which does not remain in steady state. You hypothesize that all behaviour is tolerable, and should be tolerated (if only by ignoring it). Why don't you take your simple system, and posit a strange attractor of a willful disrupter, and see if your system maintains itself in some acceptable range +/- some small value, independent of the amount of force driving the occilations? I'd like to see your graphs, and your equations, demonstrating that the resulting damped, driven harmonic oscillator doesn't end up overdriven, with no sigma to multiply damping. > > To fail to agree with you is not always a result of a failure to > > understand you. > > Granted. However, some of your disagreement does rest in the inability > (or unwillingness) to understand. > > BTW, you cannot prove that you understood what I said and neither > can I. We might agree that you understand, but the possibility > would still exist that you do not. And how is that relevent? If you want to be a Solipsist, then you aren't really going to be useful to anyone else, because your going to act like everyone else is a figment of your imagination anyway. Where is *our* utility in *you* acting like that? What's our economic incentive for listening to or continuing to consent to interact with you? > > It is not about permission, it is about possibility, for any given > > situation. > > Maybe -I'm- not understanding -you-. ;) Isn't one of your positions > based on permission to behave in certain manners? No. Permission is an artifact of authority, and no authority can be absolute for an indefinite period. It's not a metastable state. > > By designing the situation, you design the constraints, and therefore > > you limit the possibilities for behaviour. > > Now you know why I don't take most of your analogies seriously. =) I have no idea. Is it just that you can't follow the mathematics behind emergent properties of chaotic systems, or is it just that you disagree that the chaotic systems can be constrained in such a way as to have a particular desirable set of emergent properties? > > You are talking about "rules". "Rules" are meaningless, in that > > compliance with "rules" is always voluntary upon the complying > > person, unless the rules constitute a subset of natural law. > > > > For example, one can break the "rule" that you are not allowed to > > spit on the sidewalk, because the laws of physics do not prohibit > > the act. But a "rule" which states "objects must not fall up, in > > a gravitational field" may not be disobeyed, even by the most > > willful child: that "rule" is enforced by the laws of physics. > > I think you are using the world "rule" inaccurately here. Perhaps > a "rule" should be used to denote man made barriers, and a "law" > should be used to denote environmental ones? No. You are mistaking my use of the word "law" for the common use of the word "rule", as in "some arbitrary value whose compliance is enforced by a larger society". A "law" is "the way things are". For example, it is a "law" on the Internet that you can only send packets with certain protocol number values (IP, IPv6, ICMP, etc.). This is "the law", because no matter how hard you try to send packets with protocol numbers other than that, they will not get from point A to point B over an arbitrary segment of the Internet reliably, because the core routers will simply discard, not forward, them. That's "just the way things work": it is a law. Like gravity. > >> Not if you find some hackable server on another ISP and set up your > >> email spam machine there. =) > > > > What part of "all" didn't you understand? > > The part that says that you can't mold software to do mostly whatever > you want to, in spite of "constraints" which are imposed by humans. This is a nonsequitur. Did you not mean to use the phrase "due to" instead of "in spite of" or the word "can" instead of "can't", or both? In any case, there are two interpretations of my statement that would attempt to take a relativist stance on my use of the word "all". If you meant one of those, I suggest you fire up your favorite search engine and search for the following phrase: "von Neumann complete" I'll give you a hint: it has to do with information theory, and the fact that you are wrong XOR John von Neumann is wrong... and I know which way I'd personally bet on that one. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 4: 1: 3 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B786637B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7046143F3F for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13215; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:49 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 29968; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:59:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1CC0mc15254; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22273; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:46 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200302120251.h1C2p0139307@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> References: <200302120251.h1C2p0139307@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:33:10 +0100 To: Dave Hayes From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: matthew dillon Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:50 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Dave Hayes wrote: > The incentive that works is the lack of credible, intelligent, > honorable, sane, and humble replacements. ;) Nope. History has proven that. > I contend that focusing on altering someone else's behavior is > generally a waste of time. It is far more productive to focus on > altering your own behavior. Well, if you want to crawl back into a shell every time someone says or does something you don't like, that's your perogative. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 4: 1: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E250A37B405 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E786943FBD for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:00:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13223; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 29728; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:59:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1CC0oc15312; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22279; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:49 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:50:53 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:42 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Terry Lambert wrote: > Actually, I disagree with this presentation. There is an assumption > of "sufficient storage" there in the first place, when in practice, > sufficient storage is commonly a prime economic issue. If people > were satisfied with the job "the big providers" were doing, there > would be no little providers. In practice, the sole limiting factor of mail systems is synchronous meta-data update latency and related I/O throughput. You're far, far better off getting large numbers of smaller disks and putting them in a RAID 1+0 environment (or even RAID 1+0+0), with a large enough stripe size that almost all transactions can be taken care of as one logical operation. This is very much like running a large-scale USENET news server. The total quantity of disk space is meaningless, if you don't have enough heads working for you in parallel. So, to solve the disk space issue, you just buy some slightly larger disks. Been there, done that. We learned this lesson a long time ago at AOL. Doing single-instance-store is a false economy, and indeed is one of the key limiting factors for LAN e-mail packages like cc:Mail, Lotus Notes, Microsoft Mail, or Microsoft Exchange. This is one of the primary reasons why they don't scale. > As to the metadata updates: I'm not positive this is the case, > though it is certainly the case in "sendmail" and certain other > MTAs. It's really implementation dependent, I think, and the > slide assumes a particular implementation. These slides have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the MTA. They have to do with the mailbox, mailbox delivery, mailbox access, etc.... You need message locking in some fashion, you may need mailbox locking, and most schemes for handling mailboxes involve either re-writing the mailbox file, or changing file names of individual messages (or changing their location), etc.... These are all synchronous meta-data operations. See through . Then ask yourself how these issues relate to the operation of UW-IMAP, Courier-IMAP, and Cyrus. If you want a detailed discussion of these points, I'll be more than happy to get into this. However, keep in mind that I've already had a deep discussion of these points with Nick Christenson (author of the book _Sendmail Performance Tuning_, as well as the classic paper "A Highly Scalable Electronic Mail Service Using Open Systems" at , among others) and other large-scale Internet e-mail experts, and I don't think that we're likely to add much to this topic here. > The scaling issue at 150 is an implementation detail specific to > the implementations you are referencing. My advice is "get some > real software". 8-). You can scale something like this from > Open Source components and about 3 months of concentrated coding > to at least 50,000 per indivisible component cluster, and then > throw hardware at it. Concentrated coding? Open source? Where? What specific pieces of software are you envisioning? Who would be doing the coding? If it's that simple, then why hasn't this code already been written? I'm trying to build a LAN e-mail system today using open source software because certain constraints have been put on this project (e.g., they have literally $0 to spend on new hardware, mailboxes must be stored on NFS, the old multi-purpose machines must be replaced and a new mail system must be able to gradually take over), and I was painted into a corner before I ever became a member of this project. I've done the best I can in the circumstances available, but I am still very, very concerned that given the best available solutions I can find for each of the components involved, the replacement still is not going to perform well enough to be considered anything other than "b0rken". > The normal implementation to avoid single point of failure is > replication of the data. At that point, the replication > protocol itself becomes (essentially) a transport. The worst > case failure mechanism, in that case, is a previously deleted > message reappears. Correct, in theory. Where's the practice? > I think they do it on the basis of their name, and on the basis > of the idea that "you can put any SQL server behind MS Exchange, > so use ours, it's better than Microsoft's". Uh, no. Take a closer look at the pitch. They are completely and totally replacing Exchange. There are no Microsoft components left. The architecture is totally unlike Exchange. The only thing they're doing is pitching a solution that is compatible with Exchange at the highest protocol levels, enough to fool Outlook. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 4: 1:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738AF37B409 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D8D43FB1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 04:01:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13231; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 29512; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:59:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1CC0qc15324; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:52 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22292; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:00:51 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 12:58:40 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:49 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Terry Lambert wrote: > Why did you cut out my arguments against actually doing it, in your > reply? I wasn't disagreeing with them, it's just that this is an issue that I think is also important, and you hadn't addressed it. >> Why not just give everyone in the world an IMAP account on your >> mail server and make everyone use shared folders? > > Security. Privacy. Concurrent access. Storage. Backup. > > You can actually get around all but "storage" and "backup", and > those can be brute-forced. There's no way to get around the storage issue. This stuff has to be stored somewhere, and if we're not allowed to store it on the machine owned by the recipient, then we have to store it on the machine owned by the sender. Thus, we create huge SPOFs throughout the system. > But you have to be willing to change > IMAP4 semantics, slightly. In what way does IMAP4 need to be changed? >> No, not really. Besides, we all know how poorly LAN e-mail >> packages scale. Been there, done that. > > Just because the code you are familiar with was written by idiots, > doesn't tar all code with the same brush. 8-). I've seen quite a few LAN e-mail systems. Not a one of them scaled. They were all written under many false assumptions. I'm not saying all code is bad, but I have seen enough LAN e-mail systems to say that, in general, they don't scale. >> Again, not really. Nice idea, but the OP said that the messages >> themselves were never sent, only notices -- the message bodies would >> then be retrieved via a pull mechanism. > > From a flood-filled, replicated store. I didn't say that the nodes > containing the message replicas had to be local to the recipient. The > usenet model is a good flood-fill replicated transport model. No, a flood-fill replicated store can't be used for the actual messages. The OP stipulated that they were stored only on the system belonging to the sender. You could flood-fill the notices all you want, but if the original system on which this stuff is stored goes tango-uniform, then you are well and truly screwed. Of course, if you flood-filled the notices, you'd have to find some way to force everyone to actually subscribe to the appropriate newsgroups or something, so that they'd actually see the notices. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 6:22: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20A637B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D6443F75 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ixly-0003Zd-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 06:22:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 9510 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Feb 2003 14:21:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:21:59 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bugzilla? (was Re: Okay, I think I need some serious introduction ;-) Message-ID: <20030212142159.GA9464@papagena.rockefeller.edu> References: <20030211211426.A43952@hub.org> <200302120759.h1C7x4aX084642@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302120759.h1C7x4aX084642@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray said on Feb 12, 2003 at 07:59:04: > PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE CC!! How about the following: maybe some procmail guru can improve it but it should do what you seem to want, ie, keep the list copy but reject any freebsd-chat-addressed mail that did not arrive via the list. Trimming obviously irrelevant cc's is good, but you can't expect people to always do it when the normal practice is to retain cc's (necessary since the list policy allows posting from non-subscribers). - R CHATFOLDER=$MAILDIR/freebsdchat # define this as you like :0: * ^(Delivered-To:).*(freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) | $FORMAIL -A"X-Sorted: Bulk" >>$CHATFOLDER :0: * ^(To:|Cc:).*(chat@freebsd.org) | $FORMAIL "X-Sorted: Bulk" >>/dev/null :0: * ^(To:|Cc:).*(freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) | $FORMAIL "X-Sorted: Bulk" >>/dev/null To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 8:52:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671CC37B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FF543FB1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:52:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0017.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.17] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18j07c-00000b-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:52:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4A7B76.2D6856C6@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:51:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Modelling complexity (was: Re: matthew dillon) References: <200302121149.h1CBnp143597@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e45001ce11a4d7de0809901aa049c9af350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Dave Hayes wrote: > >> > I understood you perfectly. > >> > >> Then why did you paraphrase what I said incorrectly? > > > > I paraphrased the *consequences* of what you said, were less than > > 100% of us to adopt your world view. > > Technically, you paraphrased your assumptions about the consequences > of what you -think- I meant. Technically, I paraphrased the results of gross calculations about the consequences of several of the highest probability interpretations of what you meant, and then stated the common properties of all interpretations with "reasonably high" probabilities. 8^p. > Yes, this is your theory. You still haven't demonstrated how the > system is currently in a steady state, I have. You've just refused to accept/consult my references, and I don't have the time or inclination to teach you mathematics in this forum. > why any steady state is desirable, So that state transitions can be planned, of course. Otherwise, how do you know in advance whether a particular state transition will result in greater or lesser entropy? > nor have you seemed to grasp what I am advocating. This > could be because I am not explaining it in terms of chaos theory or > mathematical rigor. Or even in terms of the desired consequences of behaviour according to your model, or how such behaviours would be self maintaining, once established. Feel free to engage in a generalization, and permit me to decide on my own whether the steady-state you propose is actually desirable. > > You hypothesize that all behaviour is tolerable, and should be > > tolerated (if only by ignoring it). > > Not exactly. I maintain that the most efficient change to any > system you are participating in is the change in your behavior. > If you try to change other's behavior, it will not work for > some small select group of people. I maintain that the most efficient change to any system you are participating in is the change in the ground rules for the system, such that, given a system S, the resulting system S' has the emergent properties that you desire, which the system S did not. "Give me a lever, and a place to stand, and I shall move the world!" -- Archimedes > > Why don't you take your simple system, and posit a strange attractor > > of a willful disrupter, and see if your system maintains itself in > > some acceptable range +/- some small value, independent of the > > amount of force driving the occilations? > > Frankly, because people don't all work that way. They all *do* work that way, as a group; it's called a "mutual security game". And since what we are interested in here is the predictability of group dynamics, given a set of circumstances, such as an external threat, we can make useful adjustments to the system in question so that the group utilizing the system as a tool will be able to deal with the threat. The most absolutely crude form of this is "list moderation", but we are engineers, and, as engineers, our tools are better than a single on/off switch, which we must wield with an iron fist. > >> BTW, you cannot prove that you understood what I said and neither > >> can I. We might agree that you understand, but the possibility > >> would still exist that you do not. > > > > And how is that relevent? > > It's always relavent, any time someone is communicating. Failure to > account for this would be like failure to account for a key piece > of datum in your experimental verifications. Ignoring it's effect > is tantamount to religious behavior...for a real scientist. It's never relevent, in fact. Are you aware of NIM-like games? Ones such game is called "The Prisoner's Dilemma". Another version of this game is called "The Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma". The difference between the two is that in the iterated version, you cn take playing history into account. Now consider that the prisoner's in the game have no way of communicating, apart from knowledge of whether or not their counterpart has betrayed them, and the final score at the end of each iteration. What is the optimal playing stratey for this game? The answer is called "Modified Tit-For-Tat With Forgiveness" (you may look this up on Google with search phrase "iterated prisoner's dilemma"). The reason that this is the optimal playing strategy is that it uses the outcome of the game over a number of iterations in order to establish a covert communications channel, and thus to offer to cooperate to achieve the highest possible score. This communications channel was not designed into the game; it is an *emergent property* of the playing strategy, and it's what makes the playing stragey optimal. > > If you want to be a Solipsist, then you aren't really going to be > > useful to anyone else, because your going to act like everyone else > > is a figment of your imagination anyway. Where is *our* utility in > > *you* acting like that? > > Gee. If you -are- a figment of someone's imagination, would not the > greatest utility always be in interacting with the person who is > imagining you? ;) > > In fact, if I -was- imagining you, and I gave you such free will, > belligerence, and intelligence as you display, where would -my- > utility in that be? By your own standards, wouldn't I rather > imagine a bunch of people who agreed with everything I said? > > Point of fact is, I'm not really a solipsist. Being accused of this is > the method most use to convienently misunderstand what I am saying. Your argument was Solipsist in nature. In fact, if I were to ascribe a philosophy to you from my own opinion, it would be "contratian constructivist", where you insist everyone argue with you on the basis of first principles, but then refuse to give the same courtesy to the person you are arguing with, so as to try to make them "work for it". Thus the easiest path becomes agreeing with you, and getting you to accept any points which are not in correspondance with your worldview is a Sisyphean task. People must then weigh their attachment to their own philosophy vs. the amount of effort required to overcome yours; this approach is aided by the fact that, at any perceived mistake on their part, you force a return to first principles (disallowing return to a checkpoint), AND you will not go away until you brow-beat them into your point of view. Vis-a-vis, your insistance on picking up an argument that was ended over six months ago. That is, of course, just my opinion... ;^). > >> > By designing the situation, you design the constraints, and therefore > >> > you limit the possibilities for behaviour. > >> > >> Now you know why I don't take most of your analogies seriously. =) > > > > I have no idea. > > You design analogies to represent a concept you are trying > to substantiate. Unfortunately, you design the situation and the > constraints, which limit the possibilities for behavior to that > which support your concept. Yes, of course. To do otherwise would be to argue from the specific to the general, which is a logical fallacy. I argue only in terms of the limit of the problem space currently under consideration. It is an engineering approach to arguement: I do not like to solve a member of a class of problems more than once, if I can avoid it, so I will determine the boradest possible class which is capable of containing the problem statement, and I solve that, instead. Engineers will generally take this approach, if they are given free rein to solve a problem: it's precisely why an engineer will spend days writing and perfecting a shell script to perform some function which the engineer could have performed manually in less or equal time. By creating a tool suited to the problem, instead of merely immediately addressing the problem, when or if they or someone else are faced with the same problem in the future, they can treat it as already solved. If the have generalized sufficiently, then the same solution applies to a much larger class of problems than the original subset being solved for by the original engineer. The primary difference between a good engineer and a bad engineer is whether they solve the immediate problem, or if they solve the general problem, when given a problem to solve. When interviewing someone, I always pose at least one problem with an obvious general solution that is no less efficient than several "brute force" solutions. If the candidate picks one of the "brute force" solutions, then I know that they will be "Mr. Right Now", rather than "Mr. Right", and any code they write will have to be revisited later on, as the product, specifications, or user expectations for the product, evolve. I will hire this person if I need someone to create prototypes, and there is no better candidate, but not otherwise. Likewise, asking a question where the implementation cost is higher for the more general solution, if someone comes up with the more general solution, I will ask them for possible solutions with quicker times to implement. If they cannot give them, then I will hire this person if the specifications are written in stone, but not if I need an agile team member capable of rapidly creating prototypes. Some people can do both; even people you would pidgeon-hole as one type or the other, based on past experience, can surprise you, if you interview them this way. Generally speaking, in that case, your past experience is based on them being forced into one role or the other, because your team is otherwise unblanced. If you find this polarization happening, even with a number of people who can operate in both modes, then it's probably management that's at fault (e.g. setting unrealistic deadlines, goals, milestones, or specifying overy-large feature sets). Pointing the finger at management is always the last resort, in most cases, and as long as management feels confortable managing the people friction, they will often not do anything about the problem. But the organization, as a whole, will not be as efficient, effective, or have as high an economic return as it would otherwise. Time to recommend another book, for people who are recognizing their own organization in this discussion: Out of the Crisis W. Edwards Deming MIT Press ISBN: 0262541157 This book deals with organizations which engage in the practice of "crisis managment", rather than running smoothly and effectively. > > Is it just that you can't follow the mathematics behind emergent > > properties of chaotic systems, or is it just that you disagree that > > the chaotic systems can be constrained in such a way as to have a > > particular desirable set of emergent properties? > > Neither. I disagree that you can usefully model the world of > people's interactions mathematically. If you can do this, > why aren't you playing the stock market and getting so rich > that you can buy my agreement with your principles? ;) Modelling the stock market is not the same as modelling group behaviour. It's well known that you can model the stock market nearly perfectly. The formula is called the Black, Scholes, and Merton formula. Using this formula to price options, you can subtract risk out (or determine the level of acceptable risk, and the risk/reward ratio you are willing to accept t be paid for taking the risk). As for bribing you, I'm not so naive to believe I would be buying agreement, so much as I would be buying lack of public dissent. 8-). > > No. You are mistaking my use of the word "law" for the common use > > of the word "rule", as in "some arbitrary value whose compliance is > > enforced by a larger society". A "law" is "the way things are". For > > example, it is a "law" on the Internet that you can only send packets > > with certain protocol number values (IP, IPv6, ICMP, etc.). This is > > "the law", because no matter how hard you try to send packets with > > protocol numbers other than that, they will not get from point A to > > point B over an arbitrary segment of the Internet reliably, because > > the core routers will simply discard, not forward, them. That's > > "just the way things work": it is a law. Like gravity. > > So I hack into a router, upload a new core image, and now it transmits > what I want. Yet gravity isn't something I can hack into and change. > That difference was what I was attempting to describe. You would have to hack all routers intermediate to point A and B, and all routers for which there was an equal cost for intermediate hops, for all intermediate alternatives intermediate to A and B, and you would have to hack all routers that may be involved in failover, should you wish to maintain end-to-end communication in failure situations in which end-to-end communication would normally be maintained with unhacked routers. At which point, you might as well buy Cisco and make them do it, or take over the government, and issue a DOD "request" that Cisco do it, etc.. And at that point, you are competent enough to compete and win in the market place yourself, and competent people don't need to hack systems, because when they want them, they build them (or buy them). That's why you hardly ever see a competent act of terrorism: if they are competent enough, society will pay them more for playing the game than they could ever obtain by willfully refusing to play the game. > Or I come up with an RFC for DaveP, write a sample implementation, > demonstrate that it is more efficient than IP, go through the > standards process, get a few sites to run it, the router mfrs add code > for it, and now I can send packets without protocol values. Yes, you could do that. It would take at least as long to get deployed as IPv6. Which is why I suggested that you fix the FIN-WAIT-2 bug, while you were at it. 8-). > The point is, it's less of a law than gravity. Actually, it's not. Until there is an alternative to falling when you step off a cliff, falling is your only option: that's the law. After millions of years of evolution, and 12,000 years of civilization, and 6,000 years of recorded history, THEN you get the option of having a hang-glider hold you up. For DaveP, you will need to gain something that you cannot "brute force" this way: you will need willing cooperation. > Popping the stack here, email standards are difficult, but not > impossible, to change. Go to http://www.imc.org/ and start today, if you want us to have different laws. Just be sure those laws have the emergent properties you want the final system to exhibit, before you carve them in stone. 8-). > Gravity is extremely difficult to change, if not impossible. Email > standards are relatively new, Gravity is fairly everpresent in the > timeline of human endeavor. Some people would argue about gravity. It depends on what you mean when you say you are "defying" it, whther you meant the underlying fundamental principle, or whether you mean one of the emergent properties of the underlying fundamental principle. For example, it's possible to redesign the "ball in the falling elevator" experiment so that you *can* tell you are freefalling in a gravitational field, rather than being out in space. 8-). > Popping back to the original frame, it's in our power to change how > email works if we don't like how it works now. Complaining about how a > strange attractor of a willful disruptor (which actually comes into > being _because_ of how people are) is less useful than actually > figuring out how to make the email system better. Well, I was never aruing about that, per se, I was arguing about how to overlay a system in the context of an existing system, in order to damp the effects of the strange attractor. When we talk about SPAM countermeasures, like blacklisting, what we are talking about is active damping, in place of replacing the system with a system which has an emergent property of passive damping. You argue that active damping is evil; my response is "replace the system with one that contains passive damping as an emergent property, and we will stop active damping". It's incumbent upon you, as the person who wants to prevent the *natural and predictable* response to the strange attractor of tighter controls on identity and content, to provide an alternative in the form of systems engineering on the underlying transport system. Because as it stands, you aren't convincing anyone. > Finally, asserting that a particular technology _which we have control > over_ demands that people behave in a certain manner is naive and > borders on the dishonorable. We can change the technology to adapt > to how people behave and limit "damage". For any arbitrary value > of damage, this has a better chance of working than demanding > that people change their behavior. We have such a technology, already widely deployed in the world: we call it "government". If you don't like it, engineer a different system, and convince the world to deploy it, in place of the current system. But any feedback system, even a passive one "built into the rules" and operating "because that's the way things are" is going to "demand" people's behaviour conform to certain normative values within the tolerances of the system. Or the people exhibiting that behaviour *will be* damped. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 9:19: 7 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6978237B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:19:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C9D43FB1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0017.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.17] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18j0X8-0005cR-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:18:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:17:23 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c5c199b0b30fa66b467559ac30785259667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:42 PM -0800 2003/02/11, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Actually, I disagree with this presentation. There is an assumption > > of "sufficient storage" there in the first place, when in practice, > > sufficient storage is commonly a prime economic issue. If people > > were satisfied with the job "the big providers" were doing, there > > would be no little providers. > > In practice, the sole limiting factor of mail systems is > synchronous meta-data update latency and related I/O throughput. > You're far, far better off getting large numbers of smaller disks and > putting them in a RAID 1+0 environment (or even RAID 1+0+0), with a > large enough stripe size that almost all transactions can be taken > care of as one logical operation. In terms of I/O throughput, you are right. But we are not interested in I/O throughput, in this case, we are interested in minimizing dynamic pool size, for a given pool retention time function, over a given input and output volume. It's best if you consider each POP3 maildrop as a queue. > This is very much like running a large-scale USENET news server. > The total quantity of disk space is meaningless, if you don't have > enough heads working for you in parallel. The Usenet parallel is probably not that apt. Usenet provides an "Expires:" header, which bounds the pool retention time to a fixed interval, reagardless of volume. In the POP3 case, the volume is bounded, reagardless of time. It is a different problem, entirely, in terms of email servers which contain maildrops. I think the problem is that you are trying to apply transit server mechanics to what is, effectively, a destination queue, as opposed to a destination maildrop. Even if it were a maildrop, if you enforce a quota, you can make the argument for fixed time: once the pool fills (the maildrop goes over quota), then the messages pile up in the main mail queue (without an MDA reservation protocol, anyway), and the time a message may remain in the main queue undelivered is not relevent to volume, but the volume is bound to the quota. There is just an added element of hysteresis in the main queue retention limit (e.g. 4 days). Even so, this is only effective is you can guarantee delivery will occur through the maildrop being brought below quota in that interval -- which you can not do, since that is not under your control [ Actually, I'd argue that your queue retention time would have to be in excess of twice the maximum polling interval, plus one, for it to become a factor again ]. > So, to solve the disk space issue, you just buy some slightly larger disks. > > Been there, done that. We learned this lesson a long time ago at > AOL. Doing single-instance-store is a false economy, and indeed is > one of the key limiting factors for LAN e-mail packages like cc:Mail, > Lotus Notes, Microsoft Mail, or Microsoft Exchange. This is one of > the primary reasons why they don't scale. Again, I disagree. Poor design is why they don't scale. > > As to the metadata updates: I'm not positive this is the case, > > though it is certainly the case in "sendmail" and certain other > > MTAs. It's really implementation dependent, I think, and the > > slide assumes a particular implementation. > > These slides have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the > MTA. They have to do with the mailbox, mailbox delivery, mailbox > access, etc.... You need message locking in some fashion, you may > need mailbox locking, and most schemes for handling mailboxes involve > either re-writing the mailbox file, or changing file names of > individual messages (or changing their location), etc.... These are > all synchronous meta-data operations. You do not need all the locking you state you need, at least not at that low a granularity. If you want to talk AOL, AOL used to use VMS systems, which used record locking. > See > > through > . > Then ask yourself how these issues relate to the operation of > UW-IMAP, Courier-IMAP, and Cyrus. I will have to examine these references at a later time. > If you want a detailed discussion of these points, I'll be more > than happy to get into this. ...and then decide on this. > However, keep in mind that I've already had a deep discussion of > these points with Nick Christenson (author of the book _Sendmail > Performance Tuning_, Sendmail performance tuning is not the issue, although if you are a transit server for virtual domains, you should rewrite the queueing algorithm. See: ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/misc/sendmail/ > as well as the classic paper "A Highly Scalable > Electronic Mail Service Using Open Systems" at > , among others) and > other large-scale Internet e-mail experts, and I don't think that > we're likely to add much to this topic here. The Open Source book is wrong. You can not build such a system without significant modification. My source tree, for example, contains more than 6 million lines of code at this point, and about 250,000 of those are mine, modifying Cyrus, modifying OpenLDAP, modifying Sendmail, modifying BIND, etc.. > > The scaling issue at 150 is an implementation detail specific to > > the implementations you are referencing. My advice is "get some > > real software". 8-). You can scale something like this from > > Open Source components and about 3 months of concentrated coding > > to at least 50,000 per indivisible component cluster, and then > > throw hardware at it. > > Concentrated coding? Open source? Where? What specific pieces > of software are you envisioning? Who would be doing the coding? If > it's that simple, then why hasn't this code already been written? Because Open Source projects are inherently incapable of doing productization work. It's antithetical to their nature. They are also generally incapable of doing systems integration. That's also antithetical to their nature, since systems integration required metacooperation between projects. This is why commercial software really has nothing to fear from pure Open Source. > I'm trying to build a LAN e-mail system today using open source > software because certain constraints have been put on this project > (e.g., they have literally $0 to spend on new hardware, mailboxes > must be stored on NFS, the old multi-purpose machines must be > replaced and a new mail system must be able to gradually take over), > and I was painted into a corner before I ever became a member of this > project. $0 is not really true. They are paying for you, in the hopes that it will end up costing less than a prebuilt system. > I've done the best I can in the circumstances available, but I am > still very, very concerned that given the best available solutions I > can find for each of the components involved, the replacement still > is not going to perform well enough to be considered anything other > than "b0rken". Contact Stanford, MIT, or other large institutions which have already deployed such a system. > > The normal implementation to avoid single point of failure is > > replication of the data. At that point, the replication > > protocol itself becomes (essentially) a transport. The worst > > case failure mechanism, in that case, is a previously deleted > > message reappears. > > Correct, in theory. Where's the practice? Not in Open Source; Open Source does not perform productization or systems integration. > > I think they do it on the basis of their name, and on the basis > > of the idea that "you can put any SQL server behind MS Exchange, > > so use ours, it's better than Microsoft's". > > Uh, no. Take a closer look at the pitch. They are completely > and totally replacing Exchange. There are no Microsoft components > left. The architecture is totally unlike Exchange. The only thing > they're doing is pitching a solution that is compatible with Exchange > at the highest protocol levels, enough to fool Outlook. I was unaware of this from the pitch on the billboards and WSJ advertisements. I rather expect anyone buying it will make the same assumptions I did, that when they were talking about making "MS Exchange Rock Solid", they were talking about leaving it there. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 9:27:59 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B47D37B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FD043F93 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:27:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0017.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.17] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18j0fo-0007e1-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:27:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:26:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c5c199b0b30fa66b42541539a6d49ce43ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > You can actually get around all but "storage" and "backup", and > > those can be brute-forced. > > There's no way to get around the storage issue. This stuff has > to be stored somewhere, and if we're not allowed to store it on the > machine owned by the recipient, then we have to store it on the > machine owned by the sender. Thus, we create huge SPOFs throughout > the system. "all but storage and backup"... > > But you have to be willing to change > > IMAP4 semantics, slightly. > > In what way does IMAP4 need to be changed? Add domain support. There is no support in it in the login process, which asks only username and password. The trick of specifying "username@domain" will not work for a number of mail clients, such as some versions Netscape, strip trailing "@*" before sending it to the server, on the assumption that they know better than you do. > >> No, not really. Besides, we all know how poorly LAN e-mail > >> packages scale. Been there, done that. > > > > Just because the code you are familiar with was written by idiots, > > doesn't tar all code with the same brush. 8-). > > I've seen quite a few LAN e-mail systems. Not a one of them > scaled. They were all written under many false assumptions. > > I'm not saying all code is bad, but I have seen enough LAN e-mail > systems to say that, in general, they don't scale. Well, the Open Source answer would be "Send Patches, and if they don't step on anyone's toes, we'll think about commiting them". > >> Again, not really. Nice idea, but the OP said that the messages > >> themselves were never sent, only notices -- the message bodies would > >> then be retrieved via a pull mechanism. > > > > From a flood-filled, replicated store. I didn't say that the nodes > > containing the message replicas had to be local to the recipient. The > > usenet model is a good flood-fill replicated transport model. > > No, a flood-fill replicated store can't be used for the actual > messages. The OP stipulated that they were stored only on the system > belonging to the sender. You could flood-fill the notices all you > want, but if the original system on which this stuff is stored goes > tango-uniform, then you are well and truly screwed. Well, the "OP" in this case is actually a reference to a DJB document, and what we're interested in here is solving the problem. We don't have to accept both the data store and the "don't send messages" parts of the document, all or nothing. > Of course, if you flood-filled the notices, you'd have to find > some way to force everyone to actually subscribe to the appropriate > newsgroups or something, so that they'd actually see the notices. No, you'd direct-send notices. You'd flood-fill the messages the notices referred to, to address the scalability and availability problems, and to partially address the "revisionist history" and "delete before receipt" problems. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 11:18:32 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC50337B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1D043FAF; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1CJGxM9004455; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:16:59 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h1CJGxtR004454; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:16:59 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:16:59 +0200 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: Flash on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20030212191659.GE90537@nevermind.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd urge anyone, who is interested in native flash on FreeBSD, to fill out with request form. It should help, as it was with nVidia drivers. ----- Forwarded message from MikkelFJ ----- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:44:38 +0900 From: "MikkelFJ" To: ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org (ruby-talk ML) Subject: Flash GUI on Ruby vs. FreeBSD Recently there were yet another Ruby Flash discussion. It was mentioned that Flash was not supported on FreeBSD. So I asked their customer support about the status. Here is their answer: At the moment there are no plans to compile the Macromedia Flash Player for FreeBSD. However, we do offer licensing for developers if they are interested in compiling the source code on their OS of choice. This page has more information on licensing the source code: We also have an open SWF forum for developers: The best thing to do would be to fill out the Feature Request form here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/ and have other FreeBSD users do the same. The engineers view the wishlist regularly and would consider porting the player to UNIX if enough users request for it. Mikkel ----- End forwarded message ----- -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 13:52: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D70237B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.org (p50867E3A.dip.t-dialin.net [80.134.126.58]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8985943FE5; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 13:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james1k3@netscape.net) X-Priority: 1 From: To: "majordomo@freebsd.org" Subject: [private and confindential] Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:53:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0" Message-Id: <20030212215133.8985943FE5@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC2B74.89D1CCC0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AMSTERDAM, THE NETHERLANDS. CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL. You may be surprised to receive this letter from me since you do not know me personally. I am Carol Makali, the only child of James Makali,the most popular black farmer in Zimbabwe who was murdered in the land dispute in my country. I got your contact through network online hence decided to write you. Before the death of my father, he had taken me to Johannesburg to deposit the sum of US8.6 million (Eight million, Six Hundred thousand United States dollars), in one of the private security company, as he foresaw the looming danger in Zimbabwe this money was deposited in a box as gem stones to avoid much demurrage from security company. This amount was meant for the purchase of new machines and chemicals for the Farms and establishment of new farms in Swaziland. This land problem came when Zimbabwean President Mr. Robert Mugabe introduced a new Land Act Reform wholly affecting the rich white farmers and some few black farmers, and this resulted to the killing and mob action by Zimbabwean war veterans and some lunatics in the society. In fact a lot of people were killed because of this Land reform Act for which my father was one of the victims. It is against this background that, I and my mother fled Zimbabwe for fear of our lives and are currently staying in the Netherlands where we are seeking political asylum and moreso have decided to transfer my father뭩 money to a more reliable foreign account. since the law of Netherlands prohibits a refugee (asylum seeker) to open any bank account or to be involved in any financial transaction throughout the territorial zone of Netherlands, As the only child of my father, I am saddled with the responsibility of seeking a genuine foreign account where this money could be transferred without the knowledge of my government who are bent on taking everything we have got. The South African government seems to be playing along with them. I am faced with the dilemma of moving this amount of money out of South Africa for fear of going through the same experience in future, both countries have similar political history. As a businesslady,I am seeking for a partner who I have to entrust my future and that of my family in his hands, I must let you know that this transaction is risk free. If you accept to assist me and my mother, all I want you to do for me, is to make an arrangements with the security company to clear the consignment(funds) from their afiliate office here in the Netherlands as i have already given directives for the consignment to be brought to the Netherlands from South Africa.But before then all modalities will have to be put in place like change of ownership to the consignment and more importantly this money I intend to use for investment. I have two options for you. Firstly you can choose to have certain percentage of the money for nominating your account for this transaction. Or you can go into partnership with me for the proper profitable investment of the money in your country. Whichever the option you want, feel free to notify me. I have also mapped out 5% of this money for all kinds of expenses incurred in the process of this transaction. If you do not prefer a partnership I am willing to give you 20% of the money while the remaining 75% will be for my investment in your country. Contact me with the above telephone number or my E-mail address while I implore you to maintain the absolute secrecy required in this transaction. Thanks, GOD BLESS YOU Yours Faithfully, Carol Makali. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 16: 7:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3262837B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D587443FB1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:07:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1D06gPY011968; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:07:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:07:36 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:17 AM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: > In terms of I/O throughput, you are right. > > But we are not interested in I/O throughput, in this case, we > are interested in minimizing dynamic pool size, for a given > pool retention time function, over a given input and output > volume. Under what circumstances are you not interested in I/O throughput?!? I have seen some mail systems that were short of disk space, but when we looked carefully at the number of messages in the mailboxes and the number of recipients per message, there just wasn't a whole lot of disk space that we could potentially have recovered. This was across 100,000+ POP3/dialup users at an earlier time in the life of Belgacom Skynet, the largest ISP in Belgium. Virtually all other mail systems I've ever seen have not had disk space problems (unless they didn't enforce quotas), but were instead critically short of I/O capacity in the form of synchronous meta-data updates. This was true for both the MTA and the mailbox storage mechanism. > The Usenet parallel is probably not that apt. Usenet provides > an "Expires:" header, which bounds the pool retention time to a > fixed interval, reagardless of volume. Almost no one ever uses the Expires: header anymore. If they do, it's in an attempt to ensure that the message stays around much, much longer than normal as opposed to the reverse. No, what I was talking about was the fundamental fact that you cannot possibly handle a full USENET feed of 650GB/day or more, if you don't have enough spindles going for you. It doesn't matter how much disk space you have, if you don't have the I/O capacity to handle the input. > Again, I disagree. Poor design is why they don't scale. Right, and another outcome of poor design is their stupid choice of single-instance store -- a false economy. >> These slides have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the >> MTA. They have to do with the mailbox, mailbox delivery, mailbox >> access, etc.... You need message locking in some fashion, you may >> need mailbox locking, and most schemes for handling mailboxes involve >> either re-writing the mailbox file, or changing file names of >> individual messages (or changing their location), etc.... These are >> all synchronous meta-data operations. > > You do not need all the locking you state you need, at least not > at that low a granularity. Really? I'd like to hear your explanation for that claim. > If you want to talk AOL, AOL used to > use VMS systems, which used record locking. At what time? I worked there from 1995 through 1997, and I worked very closely with the people who had designed the original mail system for Quantum Computer Systems. The founding four came from a company where they had tried to use Tandem computers, and at that time Tandem couldn't deliver on their fault-tolerant claims. Contrariwise, Stratus could, so they build the system on Stratus. It was in 1996 that they started moving everything off Stratus and onto Unix systems. I know quite a bit about the details of that mail system, because I was materially involved in the implementation from the Operations side. I would be very interested to know at what time they have ever used any Vax/VMS systems anywhere in the entire history of the company. I have plenty of contacts that I can use to verify any claims. >> However, keep in mind that I've already had a deep discussion of >> these points with Nick Christenson (author of the book _Sendmail >> Performance Tuning_, > > Sendmail performance tuning is not the issue, although if you > are a transit server for virtual domains, you should rewrite the > queueing algorithm. My point is not that Sendmail is the issue. My point is that Nick has designed and built some of the largest open-source based mail systems in the world, and he and I worked extensively to create the architecture laid out in my LISA 2002 talk. If you look at and , you will find virtually the same architecture being used by the major commercial vendors for their high-volume/high-SLA clients. > See: > > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/misc/sendmail/ This was written for sendmail 8.9.3, way before the advent of multiple queues and all other sorts of new features. It is no longer relevant to modern sendmail. > The Open Source book is wrong. You can not build such a system > without significant modification. My source tree, for example, > contains more than 6 million lines of code at this point, and > about 250,000 of those are mine, modifying Cyrus, modifying > OpenLDAP, modifying Sendmail, modifying BIND, etc.. IIRC, Nick talks about the changes that were required -- some, but not excessive. Read the paper. > Because Open Source projects are inherently incapable of doing > productization work. True enough. However, this would imply that the sort of thing that Nick has done is not possible. He has demonstrated that this is not true. Yes, using open source to do this sort of thing can be difficult (as I am finding out), but it doesn't have to be impossible. > $0 is not really true. They are paying for you, in the hopes > that it will end up costing less than a prebuilt system. It's a different color of money. They had already signed the contract stating that I would be working for them through April (at the earliest), before this project was dumped in my lap. So, that's not anything extra. Buying new machines, or buying software, now that's spending extra. > Contact Stanford, MIT, or other large institutions which have > already deployed such a system. I've already read much of Mark Crispin's writings. I know how they did it at UW, and they didn't use NFS. I've read the Cyrus documentation, and they didn't use NFS either. That only leaves Courier-IMAP, and while I've read the documentation they have available, I am finding it difficult to find anyone who has actually built a larger-scale system using Courier-IMAP on NFS. Plenty of people say they've heard of it being done, or it should be easily do-able, but I'm not finding the people themselves who've actually done it. >> Correct, in theory. Where's the practice? > > Not in Open Source; Open Source does not perform productization or > systems integration. Therein lies the problem. You may be able to write or re-write all of the open source systems in existence, but that sort of thing is not within my capabilities, and would not be accepted for this project. They're looking askance at my modifications to procmail to get it to use Maildir format and hashed mailboxes -- there's no way they'd accept actual source code changes. > I was unaware of this from the pitch on the billboards and WSJ > advertisements. I rather expect anyone buying it will make the > same assumptions I did, that when they were talking about making > "MS Exchange Rock Solid", they were talking about leaving it there. Which is exactly what they want you to think. Up to the point where they've gotten you to sign the contract. > 8-). As you well know. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 16: 7:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B452E37B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from vador.skynet.be (vador.skynet.be [195.238.3.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A953743FBF for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by vador.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1D06gPa011968; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:07:39 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:14:33 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:26 AM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: >> In what way does IMAP4 need to be changed? > > Add domain support. There is no support in it in the login > process, which asks only username and password. The trick of > specifying "username@domain" will not work for a number of mail > clients, such as some versions Netscape, strip trailing "@*" > before sending it to the server, on the assumption that they > know better than you do. Certainly, you could pass pretty much whatever you want. The issue is whether or not the IMAP server understands the @domain portion. This problem is already solved -- check out Perdition. > Well, the "OP" in this case is actually a reference to a DJB > document, and what we're interested in here is solving the > problem. We don't have to accept both the data store and the > "don't send messages" parts of the document, all or nothing. Well, if we're interested in solving the problem and not necessarily accepting the entire document as specified, then we might as well throw the whole thing away. I can't see any way to apply any part of this proposal and make it work. > No, you'd direct-send notices. You'd flood-fill the messages > the notices referred to, to address the scalability and availability > problems, and to partially address the "revisionist history" and > "delete before receipt" problems. You can do this today. Send an e-mail and tell people to go read a specific USENET news message. Doesn't work too well. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 19:33:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39D737B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BF643F85 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0418.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.163] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jA7v-0001zH-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:33:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:32:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4dfa0e541153ecfc161abcd97ca8806f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:17 AM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: > > In terms of I/O throughput, you are right. > > > > But we are not interested in I/O throughput, in this case, we > > are interested in minimizing dynamic pool size, for a given > > pool retention time function, over a given input and output > > volume. > > Under what circumstances are you not interested in I/O throughput?!? When the problem is recipient maildrop overflow, rather than inability to handle load. Since a single RS/6000 with 2 166MHz CPUs and a modified Sendmail can handle 500,000 average-sized email messages in a 24 hour period, load isn't really the problem: it's something you can "throw hardware at", and otherwise ignore. > I have seen some mail systems that were short of disk space, but > when we looked carefully at the number of messages in the mailboxes > and the number of recipients per message, there just wasn't a whole > lot of disk space that we could potentially have recovered. This was > across 100,000+ POP3/dialup users at an earlier time in the life of > Belgacom Skynet, the largest ISP in Belgium. The issue is not real limits, it is administrative limits, and, of you care about being DOS'ed, it's about aggregate limits not resulting in overcommit. > Virtually all other mail systems I've ever seen have not had disk > space problems (unless they didn't enforce quotas), but were instead > critically short of I/O capacity in the form of synchronous meta-data > updates. This was true for both the MTA and the mailbox storage > mechanism. You are looking at the problem from the wrong end. A quota is good for you, but it sucks for your user, who loses legitimate traffic, if illegitimate traffic pushed them over their quota. What this comes down to is the level of service you are offering your customer. Your definition of "adequate" and their definition of "adequate" are likely not the same. If we take two examples: HotMail and Yahoo Mail (formerly Rocket Mail), it's fairly easy to see that the "quota squeeze" was originally intended to act as a circuit break for the disk space issue. However, we now see that it's being used as a lever to attempt to extract revenue from a broken business model ("buy more disk space for only $9.95/month!"). The user convenience being sold here lies in the ability for the user to request what is, in effect, a larger queue size, in exchange for money. If this queue size were not an issue, then we would not be having this discussion: it would not have value to users, and, not having any value, it would not have a market cost associated with its reduction. > > The Usenet parallel is probably not that apt. Usenet provides > > an "Expires:" header, which bounds the pool retention time to a > > fixed interval, reagardless of volume. > > Almost no one ever uses the Expires: header anymore. If they do, > it's in an attempt to ensure that the message stays around much, much > longer than normal as opposed to the reverse. Whether the expires is enforced by default, self, or administratively is irrelevent to the mere fact that there is a limited lifetime in the distributed persistant queueing system that is Usenet. > No, what I was talking about was the fundamental fact that you > cannot possibly handle a full USENET feed of 650GB/day or more, if > you don't have enough spindles going for you. It doesn't matter how > much disk space you have, if you don't have the I/O capacity to > handle the input. This is a transport issue -- or, more properly, a queue management and data replication issue. It would be very easy to envision a system that could handle this, with "merely" enough spindles to hold 650GB/day. An OS with a log structured or journalling FS, or even soft updates, which exported a transaction dependency interface to user space, could handle this, no problem. Surely, you aren't saying an Oracle Database would need a significant number of spindles in order to replicate another Oracle Database, when all bottlenecks between the two machines, down to the disks, are directly managed by a unified software set, written by Oracle? > > Again, I disagree. Poor design is why they don't scale. > > Right, and another outcome of poor design is their stupid choice > of single-instance store -- a false economy. I'm not positive that it matters, one way or the other, in the long run, if thigs are implemented correctly. However, it is Esthetically pleasing, on many levels. > >> These slides have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the > >> MTA. They have to do with the mailbox, mailbox delivery, mailbox > >> access, etc.... You need message locking in some fashion, you may > >> need mailbox locking, and most schemes for handling mailboxes involve > >> either re-writing the mailbox file, or changing file names of > >> individual messages (or changing their location), etc.... These are > >> all synchronous meta-data operations. > > > > You do not need all the locking you state you need, at least not > > at that low a granularity. > > Really? I'd like to hear your explanation for that claim. Why the heck are you locking at a mailbox granularity, instead of a message granularity, for either of these operations? > I would be very interested to know at what time they have ever > used any Vax/VMS systems anywhere in the entire history of the > company. I have plenty of contacts that I can use to verify any > claims. Sorry, I was thinking of Compuserve, who had switched over to FreeBSD for some of its systems, at one point. > > Sendmail performance tuning is not the issue, although if you > > are a transit server for virtual domains, you should rewrite the > > queueing algorithm. > > My point is not that Sendmail is the issue. My point is that > Nick has designed and built some of the largest open-source based > mail systems in the world, and he and I worked extensively to create > the architecture laid out in my LISA 2002 talk. And I was the architect for the IBM Web Connections NOC, and for an unannounced IBM Services product. This isn't a size contest... 8-). > > See: > > > > ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/misc/sendmail/ > > This was written for sendmail 8.9.3, way before the advent of > multiple queues and all other sorts of new features. It is no longer > relevant to modern sendmail. I was at the Sendmail MOTM (Meeting Of The Minds) architecture discussion in 2000. I was one of about 8 outside people in the world who was invited to the thing. I am aware of Sendmail. I still have the thermal underwear. The answer is that it *is* relevent to modern sendmail, because the multipl queues in the modern sendmail are, effectively, hashed traversal domains. If you read the presentation that David Wolfskill did for BayLISA (the "mpg" in that directory), you will see the difference. The point of the queue modification, in this system, which was a large transit mail server designed for 50,000 virtual domains on a single server instance, was to ensure a 100% hit rate in all queue runs. The main problem sendmail faces, when performing fractional queue runs, is that it must open each queue file and examine its contents, in order to know whether or not a given queue element should be operated upon. Breaking up the queue runs into multiple hash directories, and running each queue with a seperate process avoids the global queue lock issue, but only *statistically* decreases the chance of a run-collision between two runners. It does *not* increase the probability of a "hit" for a given queue element, *at all*. Even if you did "the logical thing", and ensured that all domain destinations ended up in the same hash bucket (I would be rather amazed if you could do that, and simultaneously balance queue depth between queues, given a fixed hash selection algorithm!), the increase in "hit" probability will only go up by the average total queue depth divided by the average number of queue entries per queue. This number is *negligible*, until the number of queues approaches the number of domains. Compare; before modification, the maximum load on a SPARC Center 10 was 300 client machines making a queue run every hour. After modification, the maximim load on an RS6000/50 was 50,000 client machines making a queue run every hour. Before modification, the number of messages which could transit the system was 30,000 8K messages in a 24 hour period. After, it was 5,000,000 8K messages in a 24 hour period. Assuming 100 hash queues... the increase in processing over 30,000 messages is *negligible*. The reason for this is that we have reached queue saturation, since a triggered run must take place in all queues, anyway. > > The Open Source book is wrong. You can not build such a system > > without significant modification. My source tree, for example, > > contains more than 6 million lines of code at this point, and > > about 250,000 of those are mine, modifying Cyrus, modifying > > OpenLDAP, modifying Sendmail, modifying BIND, etc.. > > IIRC, Nick talks about the changes that were required -- some, > but not excessive. Read the paper. I have read it. The modifications he proposes are small ones, which deal with impedence issues. They are low hanging fruit, available to a system administrator, not an in depth modification by a software engineer. > > Because Open Source projects are inherently incapable of doing > > productization work. > > True enough. However, this would imply that the sort of thing > that Nick has done is not possible. He has demonstrated that this is > not true. *You've* demonstrated it, or you would just adopt his solution wholesale. The issue is that his solution doesn't scale nearly as well as is possible, it only scales "much better than Open Source on its own". Try an experiment for me: tune the bejesus out of a FreeBSD box with 4G of RAM. Do everything you can think of doing to it, in the same time frame, and at the same level of depth of understanding that Nick applied to his system. Then come back, and tell me two numbers: (1) Maximum number of new connections per second before and after, and (2) Total number of simultaneous connections, before and after. > Yes, using open source to do this sort of thing can be difficult > (as I am finding out), but it doesn't have to be impossible. It doesn't have to be, that's agreed, but it takes substantially more investment than it would cost to build out using multiple instances of commercial software, plus the machines to run it, to "brute force" the problem. Or the resulting system ends up being fragile. > > $0 is not really true. They are paying for you, in the hopes > > that it will end up costing less than a prebuilt system. > > It's a different color of money. They had already signed the > contract stating that I would be working for them through April (at > the earliest), before this project was dumped in my lap. So, that's > not anything extra. Buying new machines, or buying software, now > that's spending extra. I can't imagine a business which did not run on a cost accounting basis. 8-). > > Contact Stanford, MIT, or other large institutions which have > > already deployed such a system. > > I've already read much of Mark Crispin's writings. I know how > they did it at UW, and they didn't use NFS. I've read the Cyrus > documentation, and they didn't use NFS either. UW is not the place you should look. Stanford (as I said) already has a deployed system, and they are generally helpful when people want to copy what they have done. > That only leaves Courier-IMAP, and while I've read the > documentation they have available, I am finding it difficult to find > anyone who has actually built a larger-scale system using > Courier-IMAP on NFS. Plenty of people say they've heard of it being > done, or it should be easily do-able, but I'm not finding the people > themselves who've actually done it. If you are looking at IMAP4, then Cyrus or a commercial product are your only options, IMO, and neither will work well enough, if used "as is". > > Not in Open Source; Open Source does not perform productization or > > systems integration. > > Therein lies the problem. You may be able to write or re-write > all of the open source systems in existence, but that sort of thing > is not within my capabilities, and would not be accepted for this > project. They're looking askance at my modifications to procmail to > get it to use Maildir format and hashed mailboxes -- there's no way > they'd accept actual source code changes. How many maildrops does this need to support? I will tell you if your project will fail. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 19:38:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7740737B401 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D0243F85 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:38:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0418.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.163] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jAD3-0002es-00; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:38:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 19:37:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4dfa0e541153ecfc1f03f714904123f29a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:26 AM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> In what way does IMAP4 need to be changed? > > > > Add domain support. > > Certainly, you could pass pretty much whatever you want. The > issue is whether or not the IMAP server understands the @domain > portion. > > This problem is already solved -- check out Perdition. The problem is *not* solved by Perdition. Perdition does not even *begin* to solve the problem. > > Well, the "OP" in this case is actually a reference to a DJB > > document, and what we're interested in here is solving the > > problem. We don't have to accept both the data store and the > > "don't send messages" parts of the document, all or nothing. > > Well, if we're interested in solving the problem and not > necessarily accepting the entire document as specified, then we might > as well throw the whole thing away. I agree. It is a poor specification. > > No, you'd direct-send notices. You'd flood-fill the messages > > the notices referred to, to address the scalability and availability > > problems, and to partially address the "revisionist history" and > > "delete before receipt" problems. > > You can do this today. Send an e-mail and tell people to go read > a specific USENET news message. Doesn't work too well. Doesn't address any privacy issues. Even encrypted, your data is out there for anyone to perform traffic analysis upon. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 22:32:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0684B37B401; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntserver.emergo.com (mail.emergo.com [212.153.180.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BAD43F3F; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:32:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@163.com) Received: from plain (LINAFTE [218.66.13.117]) by ntserver.emergo.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 1XPMDCAL; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:18:27 +0100 From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@163.com To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: �♤㎟쪬莉냥접，劤뉴댕景쁨，츰띨唐掘，우혼乞혤劤覽넋걸！ Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:25:47 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="DEFAULT_CHARSET" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-Id: <20030213063210.B5BAD43F3F@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org �♤㎟쪬莉냥접，劤뉴댕景쁨，츰띨唐掘，우혼乞혤劤覽넋걸！ 邱삿적빈마롤！ 洸숯삿적，�♤㎟┲沒뺨括皓촘櫓풩켁돝┌в契㏊캣黎幷纘絹캠� 麴。2002쾨苟곕쾨돨꾸鱗써監죄，瞳댕턍딨류댐20.8%돨댕襟懇，苟 곕쾨�♤㎟┯筒講㏊컁罕돐炷瓠읍�댐돕죄8.92%，離솅瑯빵삿적댐17. 4% 2003쾨돨契헙弩앉꼇휭있밖，怜唐뚤句口충돨硫횅겉壞， 세減충 돨拷낱잿썩，꼽콘茄君瑯빵懇令돨洸숯藤朗。愷쾨윱돨삔逃륩蛟茄제 ，뚤櫓벌믈懇契헙돨唐제겉壞，侶寧학떼깊츠�♤㎟┵煙煙凶熏�蛟黨 밤댕�♤㎗�角퀭令돤斤훨돨댕밗소。朞嶝乖쳬，冷앎朞嶝죄洸숯簞적 ，轟覃낫믈돨灌윱！廬攣겉“縷풀앎角袒돛잿”쭝돕茄뇹！邱삿적빈 마롤，侶앎角乖쳬茄제돨넓킵！ �♤㎟쪬莉냥접，劤뉴댕景쁨，츰띨唐掘，우혼乞혤劤覽넋걸！ 邱삿적빈마롤！ 믈懇루暾긴뼙，뚤黨瞳栗쏜세減句口된렘충欖죡覺돨퀭윱쉿콘돤 �♤㎟┰晁Ｗ揀떫켯링셰射�角몸봤朞嶝。劫劫茄茄돨롸驕뵨츠횅돨寧 돔，角痰珂쇌뻣혤洸땍澗樓돨尻栗잿쿡，冷角굶묏鱗杆돨唎玲；宮斤 굶묏鱗杆돨斂撚彊硫극쉥賈퀭겠錮“빻제폭、톄쑹제、웍일굶”돨애 충，廬攣겉“縷풀앎角袒돛잿”쭝돕茄뇹！邱삿적빈마롤，侶앎角乖 쳬茄제돨넓킵！ 邱삿적빈마롤！ 寧湳돨턍충，꼇寧湳돨澗樓，윱걸，朞嶝乖쳬，朞嶝콱쳬轟覃簞적 돨쉥윱！뵨乖쳬돨삔逃寧폅權肝轟覃낫믈，햐漑簞적돨있혹걸！ 唐雷諒헝접섦鈴斤sanhubao2002@vip.163.com乞혤흙삔覽넋（벵 �♤㎟┻켠돔ªæ� �♤㎟┰晁Ｗ�璂 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 5:14:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456CC37B401 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF6443F75 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28478; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:14:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 11534; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:12:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1DDE6c14666; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:14:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16012; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:14:06 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:00:08 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:37 PM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: >> This problem is already solved -- check out Perdition. > > The problem is *not* solved by Perdition. Perdition does not even > *begin* to solve the problem. Okay, what parts of the problem doesn't Perdition solve? >> You can do this today. Send an e-mail and tell people to go read >> a specific USENET news message. Doesn't work too well. > > Doesn't address any privacy issues. Even encrypted, your data is > out there for anyone to perform traffic analysis upon. I don't see how you can do a flood-fill mechanism without having the message accessible to anyone who'd want to read it. Of course, it should be public-key encrypted, so that the only traffic analysis that could be performed was the path that it took over the flood-fill servers, which could be obscured. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 5:15: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C7837B405 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD2A43FAF for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from nlvdhv01.asml.nl (nlvdhv01 [195.109.200.68]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28474; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:14:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from unknown(146.106.1.223) by nlvdhv01.asml.nl via csmap id 11417; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:12:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1DDE5c14662; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:14:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (frobozz.asml.nl [146.106.12.76]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16003; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:14:03 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:13:55 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:32 PM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Under what circumstances are you not interested in I/O throughput?!? > > When the problem is recipient maildrop overflow, rather than > inability to handle load. Since a single RS/6000 with 2 166MHz > CPUs and a modified Sendmail can handle 500,000 average-sized > email messages in a 24 hour period, load isn't really the problem: > it's something you can "throw hardware at", and otherwise ignore. Again, you're talking about the MTA. For this discussion, I couldn't give a flying flip about the MTA. I care about the message store and mailbox access methods. I know how to solve MTA problems. Solving message store and mailbox access methods tend to be more difficult, especially if they're dependant on a underlying technology that you can't touch or change. > The issue is not real limits, it is administrative limits, and, of > you care about being DOS'ed, it's about aggregate limits not > resulting in overcommit. Quotas and making sure you have enough disk space are well-understood problems with well understood solutions. > You are looking at the problem from the wrong end. A quota is good > for you, but it sucks for your user, who loses legitimate traffic, > if illegitimate traffic pushed them over their quota. There's no way around this issue. If you don't set quotas then the entire system can be trivially taken down by a DOS attack, and this affects thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of other users. If you do set quotas, the entire system can still be taken down, but it takes a more concerted effort aimed at more than just one user. You have to have quotas. There simply is no other viable alternative. They key is setting them high enough that 95-99% of your users never hit them, and the remainder that do would probably have hit *any* quota that you set, and therefore they need to be dealt with in a different manner. For dealing with DOS attacks that take a single user over their quota, that's a different issue that has to be addressed in a different manner. > What this comes down to is the level of service you are offering > your customer. Your definition of "adequate" and their definition > of "adequate" are likely not the same. If 95-99% of all users never even notice that there is a quota, then I've solved the part of the problem that is feasible to solve. The remainder cannot possibly be solved with any quota at any level, and these users need to be dealt with separately. > If we take two examples: HotMail and Yahoo Mail (formerly Rocket > Mail), it's fairly easy to see that the "quota squeeze" was > originally intended to act as a circuit break for the disk space > issue. Right. A valid use of quotas, especially when you're talking about a free service. > However, we now see that it's being used as a lever to attempt to > extract revenue from a broken business model ("buy more disk space > for only $9.95/month!"). Another valid use, in this case allowing you to have an actual sustainable business model. Or would you prefer for everyone to offer all their services for "free" only to go bankrupt six months later, and forcing you to go somewhere else for your next fix of "free" service? That way lies madness. > The user convenience being sold here lies in the ability for the > user to request what is, in effect, a larger queue size, in > exchange for money. > > If this queue size were not an issue, then we would not be having > this discussion: it would not have value to users, and, not having > any value, it would not have a market cost associated with its > reduction. You have to pay for storage somehow. If you store it all on the sender's system, then you run into SPOFs, overload when a billion people all check their e-mail and read a copy of the same message, backups, etc.... If you use a flood-fill mechanism, then everyone pays to store everyone's messages all the time, and then you run into problems of not enough shared storage space so old messages get tossed away very quickly and then they just re-post them again. Look at what's happening to USENET today. If you store them on the recipient system, you have what exists today for e-mail. Of the three, this is the only one that has proved sustainable (so far) and sufficiently reliable. > Whether the expires is enforced by default, self, or administratively > is irrelevent to the mere fact that there is a limited lifetime in > the distributed persistant queueing system that is Usenet. Yeah, at 650GB/day for a full feed, it's called not having enough disk space for an entire day's full feed. At ~2GB/day for text only, it's called not having enough disk space for a weeks traffic. And you still lose messages that never somehow managed to flood over to your system. For USENET, this doesn't really matter. But for personal e-mail that needs some reasonable guarantees, this just doesn't fly. > This is a transport issue -- or, more properly, a queue management > and data replication issue. It would be very easy to envision a > system that could handle this, with "merely" enough spindles to > hold 650GB/day. Two IDE 320GB disks are not going to cut it. They cannot possibly get the data in and out fast enough. > An OS with a log structured or journalling FS, > or even soft updates, which exported a transaction dependency > interface to user space, could handle this, no problem. Bullshit. You have to have sufficient underlying I/O capacity to move a given amount of data in a given amount of time, regardless of what magic you try to work at a higher level. > Surely, you aren't saying an Oracle Database would need a significant > number of spindles in order to replicate another Oracle Database, > when all bottlenecks between the two machines, down to the disks, > are directly managed by a unified software set, written by Oracle? Yup. Indeed, this is *precisely* what is needed. Just try doing this on a single 320GB hard drive. Or even a pair of 320GB hard drives. Large-capacity hard drives don't do us any good for applications like this. If they did, then companies like EMC, Hitachi Data Systems, Auspex, Network Appliance, etc... wouldn't exist. We need enough drives with enough I/O capacity to handle the transaction rates. We worry about disk space secondarily, because we know that we can always buy the next size up. > I'm not positive that it matters, one way or the other, in the > long run, if thigs are implemented correctly. However, it is > Esthetically pleasing, on many levels. Aesthetically pleasing or not, it is not practical. SIS causes way too many problems and only solves issues that we don't really care about. >> > You do not need all the locking you state you need, at least not >> > at that low a granularity. >> >> Really? I'd like to hear your explanation for that claim. > > Why the heck are you locking at a mailbox granularity, instead > of a message granularity, for either of these operations? For IMAP, you need to lock at message granularity. But your ability to do that will be dependant on your mailbox format. Choosing a mailbox directory format has a whole host of associated problems, as well understood and explained by Mark Crispin at . Either way, locking is a very important issue that has to be solved, one way or the other. > Sorry, I was thinking of Compuserve, who had switched over to > FreeBSD for some of its systems, at one point. I don't have any direct knowledge of the Compuserve systems. I can tell you that the guys at Compuserve appeared to be blissfully unaware of many scaling issues when they had one millions customers and AOL had five million. I don't understand why, but somewhere between those two numbers, a change in scale had become a change in kind. > I have read it. The modifications he proposes are small ones, > which deal with impedence issues. They are low hanging fruit, > available to a system administrator, not an in depth modification > by a software engineer. The point is that these low-hanging fruit were enough to get Nick to a point where he could serve multiple millions of customers using this technology, and he didn't need to go any further. That same design was used by Nick and the other consultants at Sendmail for a number of early customers, the largest publicly known member of which was FlashNet with about ten million customers. There were others, even larger, but their names have been withheld at their request. Sendmail has since moved on to SAMS, which is much more full-features, scalable, etc.... But the original starting point was all Nick's work, and it did quite a lot for what little was done. >> True enough. However, this would imply that the sort of thing >> that Nick has done is not possible. He has demonstrated that this is >> not true. > > *You've* demonstrated it, or you would just adopt his solution > wholesale. The issue is that his solution doesn't scale nearly > as well as is possible, it only scales "much better than Open > Source on its own". I can't adopt his solution. He did POP3, I'm doing IMAP. The mailbox formats have to change, because we have to assume multiple simultaneous processes accessing it (unlike POP3). He did just fine with mailbox locking (or methods to work around that problem). I need message locking (or methods to work around that problem). There are a whole series of other domino-effect changes that end up making the end solution totally different. Simply put, there just aren't that many medium-scale IMAP implementations in the world, period. Even after my LISA 2000 paper, there still haven't been *any* truly large-scale IMAP implementations, despite things like , , , , and . Certainly, so far as I can tell, none of them have used NFS as the underlying mailbox storage method. > Try an experiment for me: tune the bejesus out of a FreeBSD box > with 4G of RAM. Do everything you can think of doing to it, in > the same time frame, and at the same level of depth of understanding > that Nick applied to his system. Then come back, and tell me two > numbers: (1) Maximum number of new connections per second before > and after, and (2) Total number of simultaneous connections, before > and after. Give me such a box and wait until I've gotten this project out of the way, and I'll be glad to do this sort of thing. I'm setting up my own consulting business, and a large part of the work I want to do is in relation to research on scaling issues. This would be right up my alley. But, I can't buy boxes like this for myself. > It doesn't have to be, that's agreed, but it takes substantially > more investment than it would cost to build out using multiple > instances of commercial software, plus the machines to run it, to > "brute force" the problem. Or the resulting system ends up being > fragile. Operations and maintenance is going to be significantly higher, that much I can guarantee you. > UW is not the place you should look. Stanford (as I said) > already has a deployed system, and they are generally helpful > when people want to copy what they have done. I'll check and see what they've done. > If you are looking at IMAP4, then Cyrus or a commercial product > are your only options, IMO, and neither will work well enough, if > used "as is". Cyrus doesn't work on NFS. Most of the commercial products I've been able to find are based on Cyrus or Cyrus-like technology and don't support NFS, either. The ones I've been able to find that would (theoretically) support NFS are based on Courier-IMAP, and run on Linux on PCs. One of the other can't-change criteria for this system is that it has to run on SPARC/Solaris, so for example Bynari Insight Server is not an option. > How many maildrops does this need to support? I will tell you if > your project will fail. 8-(. ~1800 LAN e-mail clients initially, quickly growing to ~3000-4000, and possible growth to ~6,000-10,000. Not counting headers, during one week of fairly typical activity for the initial ~1800 users, message size distributions were (measured in terms of bytes): Mininum: 0 5th Percentile: 328 10th Percentile: 541 25th Percentile: 623 Median: 1424 75th Percentile: 4266 90th Percentile: 41743 95th Percentile: 159314 Maximum: 41915955 Mean: 66502 Sample Std. Deviation: 553042 For the initial ~1800 users, the mailbox distributions are (bytes): Mininum: 0 5th Percentile: 318 10th Percentile: 318 25th Percentile: 318 Median: 595430 75th Percentile: 919726.25 90th Percentile: 9026371 95th Percentile: 25530278 Maximum: 200702940 Mean: 4.02673e+06 Sample Std. Deviation: 1.32811e+07 For the initial ~1800 users, during the same sample time above, message arrival rates per second were: Mininum: 1 5th Percentile: 1 10th Percentile: 1 25th Percentile: 1 Median: 1 75th Percentile: 1 90th Percentile: 2 95th Percentile: 2 Maximum: 28 Mean: 1.20909 Sample Std. Deviation: 0.577905 For the initial ~1800 users, during the same sample time above, message arrival rates per minute were: Mininum: 1 5th Percentile: 1 10th Percentile: 2 25th Percentile: 3 Median: 6 75th Percentile: 17 90th Percentile: 25 95th Percentile: 28 Maximum: 419 Mean: 10.4627 Sample Std. Deviation: 11.2166 For the initial ~1800 users, during the same sample time above, message arrival rates per hour were: Mininum: 113 5th Percentile: 153 10th Percentile: 186 25th Percentile: 240 Median: 360.5 75th Percentile: 1134 90th Percentile: 1388 95th Percentile: 1498 Maximum: 1844 Mean: 614.102 Sample Std. Deviation: 489.391 For the initial ~1800 users, during the same sample time above, message arrival rates per day were: Mininum: 4883 5th Percentile: 4883 10th Percentile: 4883 25th Percentile: 7763 Median: 17047 75th Percentile: 17467 90th Percentile: 21458 95th Percentile: 21458 Maximum: 21458 Mean: 14056.1 Sample Std. Deviation: 6333.29 For the initial ~1800 users, during the same sample time above, the distribution of number of recipients per message was: Mininum: 0 5th Percentile: 1 10th Percentile: 1 25th Percentile: 1 Median: 1 75th Percentile: 1 90th Percentile: 2 95th Percentile: 3 Maximum: 294 Mean: 1.33054 Sample Std. Deviation: 3.03305 -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 7:16:10 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169C637B401 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0CD43FB1 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:16:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jL5n-00029H-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:16:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:14:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a48d7a6f217c9dc08e4cf3bc34790bd51d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:37 PM -0800 2003/02/12, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> This problem is already solved -- check out Perdition. > > > > The problem is *not* solved by Perdition. Perdition does not even > > *begin* to solve the problem. > > Okay, what parts of the problem doesn't Perdition solve? Replication and failover. Perdition provides distributed load balancing. The bck end stores that the Perdition proxy accesses have to have the content locally available. Even if you are able to load-balance, you are only able to do so between back-end servers that contain the actual content in question. The result is that you provide a unified view onto a backend farm, but you lack replication and failover in the back-end, and it does not magically appear, merely because you are running Perdition. There are other POP3 and IMAP4 proxies that can do the same things Perdition can: it's no big deal. In fact, it doesn't deal with LDAP, which is probably where the routing to the back end store will occur. > >> You can do this today. Send an e-mail and tell people to go read > >> a specific USENET news message. Doesn't work too well. > > > > Doesn't address any privacy issues. Even encrypted, your data is > > out there for anyone to perform traffic analysis upon. > > I don't see how you can do a flood-fill mechanism without having > the message accessible to anyone who'd want to read it. Of course, > it should be public-key encrypted, so that the only traffic analysis > that could be performed was the path that it took over the flood-fill > servers, which could be obscured. The primary use of such a thing is statistical client location anonymity. Basically, it's useful for terrorists and other covert communications networks (e.g. "Blacknets"), but not for a lot else, unless you put more effort into it. Insertion points are always known. Basically, it's only useful as a replication technology, and then, only behind the scenes at a particular provider, as part of their provider network. You could address these issues, but since Kazaa and GNUtella have failed to address the scaling issues when they tried to address the same issues, it's a complex enough problem that it's probably not going to be solved by Open Source. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 8:11:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA0337B401 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C6643FB1 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:11:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0083.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.83] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jLww-0004QR-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:10:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:09:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4044208ab0d1f7d9dea833c97ccc0b7ec387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Under what circumstances are you not interested in I/O throughput?!? > > Again, you're talking about the MTA. For this discussion, I > couldn't give a flying flip about the MTA. I care about the message > store and mailbox access methods. I know how to solve MTA problems. > Solving message store and mailbox access methods tend to be more > difficult, especially if they're dependant on a underlying technology > that you can't touch or change. OK, then why do you keep talking about I/O throughput? Do you mean *network I/O*? Why the hell would you care about disk I/O on a properly designed message store, when the bottleneck is going to first be network I/O, followed closely by bus bandwidth? > > The issue is not real limits, it is administrative limits, and, of > > you care about being DOS'ed, it's about aggregate limits not > > resulting in overcommit. > > Quotas and making sure you have enough disk space are > well-understood problems with well understood solutions. The consequences of quatas are (apperently) not well understood. > > You are looking at the problem from the wrong end. A quota is good > > for you, but it sucks for your user, who loses legitimate traffic, > > if illegitimate traffic pushed them over their quota. > > There's no way around this issue. If you don't set quotas then > the entire system can be trivially taken down by a DOS attack, and > this affects thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of other > users. If you do set quotas, the entire system can still be taken > down, but it takes a more concerted effort aimed at more than just > one user. So what's the difference between not enforcing a quota, and ending up with the email sitting on your disks in a user maildrop, or enforcing a quota, and ending up with the email sitting on your disks in an MTA queue? Quotas are actually a strong argument for single image storage. > You have to have quotas. There simply is no other viable > alternative. They key is setting them high enough that 95-99% of > your users never hit them, and the remainder that do would probably > have hit *any* quota that you set, and therefore they need to be > dealt with in a different manner. Obviously, unless setting the quota low on purpose is your revenue model (HotMail, Yahoo Mail). > For dealing with DOS attacks that take a single user over their > quota, that's a different issue that has to be addressed in a > different manner. How? It's going to sit on your disks, no matter what, the only choice you really have on it is *which* disk it's going to sit on. > > What this comes down to is the level of service you are offering > > your customer. Your definition of "adequate" and their definition > > of "adequate" are likely not the same. > > If 95-99% of all users never even notice that there is a quota, > then I've solved the part of the problem that is feasible to solve. > The remainder cannot possibly be solved with any quota at any level, > and these users need to be dealt with separately. Again, how? > > However, we now see that it's being used as a lever to attempt to > > extract revenue from a broken business model ("buy more disk space > > for only $9.95/month!"). > > Another valid use, in this case allowing you to have an actual > sustainable business model. > > Or would you prefer for everyone to offer all their services for > "free" only to go bankrupt six months later, and forcing you to go > somewhere else for your next fix of "free" service? That way lies > madness. No. you are misunderstanding. Their business model is: 1) Attract people who are unwilling to pay for service 2) try to sell things to the people who will not pay for things in the first place 3) Profit!!! It's a losing proposition, entirely. It's like the "whitebox" sellers in Computer Shopper, whose businesses all go under in ~3 months when the run out of capital from trying to "undercut the market to establish a customer base, then raise prices to cash in". I call this "The Chinese Restaurant Model": they expect to attract people who have no brand/vendor loyalty, and then they expect them to stay, out of brand/vendor loyalty. > > The user convenience being sold here lies in the ability for the > > user to request what is, in effect, a larger queue size, in > > exchange for money. > > > > If this queue size were not an issue, then we would not be having > > this discussion: it would not have value to users, and, not having > > any value, it would not have a market cost associated with its > > reduction. > > You have to pay for storage somehow. I understand. I'm saying that the business model is fundamentally flawed, because it depends on something to get users, and then it depends on the logical NOT of that same something, in order to keep them. > If you store it all on the sender's system, then you run into > SPOFs, overload when a billion people all check their e-mail and read > a copy of the same message, backups, etc.... You mean like storing content on HTTP servers? > If you use a flood-fill mechanism, then everyone pays to store > everyone's messages all the time, and then you run into problems of > not enough shared storage space so old messages get tossed away very > quickly and then they just re-post them again. Look at what's > happening to USENET today. Flood fill will only work as part of an individual infrastructure, not as part of a shared infrasstrusture, if what you are trying to sell is to be any different from what everyone else is giving away for free. You can't have a general "the Internet is a big disk" mentality. At best, you can have peering arrangements, and then only between peers within half an order of magnitude in size. > If you store them on the recipient system, you have what exists > today for e-mail. Of the three, this is the only one that has proved > sustainable (so far) and sufficiently reliable. This argument is flawed. Messages are not stored on recipient systems, they are stored on the systems of the ISP that the recipient subscribes to. Users, with the exception of some bearded weirdos (Hi, guys!) do not run their own mail servers. That's where quotas become an issue. > > Whether the expires is enforced by default, self, or administratively > > is irrelevent to the mere fact that there is a limited lifetime in > > the distributed persistant queueing system that is Usenet. > > Yeah, at 650GB/day for a full feed, it's called not having enough > disk space for an entire day's full feed. At ~2GB/day for text only, > it's called not having enough disk space for a weeks traffic. And > you still lose messages that never somehow managed to flood over to > your system. For USENET, this doesn't really matter. But for > personal e-mail that needs some reasonable guarantees, this just > doesn't fly. Yet those same guarantees are specifically disclaimed by HotMail and other "free" providers, even though there is no technological difference between a POP3 maildrop hosted at EarthLink and accessed via a mail client, and a POP3/IMAP4 maildrop hosted at HotMail and accessed via a mail client. *This* is what you are supposedly paying for, but a quota is in place in both cases. > > This is a transport issue -- or, more properly, a queue management > > and data replication issue. It would be very easy to envision a > > system that could handle this, with "merely" enough spindles to > > hold 650GB/day. > > Two IDE 320GB disks are not going to cut it. They cannot > possibly get the data in and out fast enough. Who the hell uses IDE on servers?!? Get real! You can't detach an IDE drive during the data transfer on a write, so tagged command queueing only works for *reading* data. For a server that does writes, you use *SCSI* (or something else, but *not* IDE). > > An OS with a log structured or journalling FS, > > or even soft updates, which exported a transaction dependency > > interface to user space, could handle this, no problem. > > Bullshit. You have to have sufficient underlying I/O capacity to > move a given amount of data in a given amount of time, regardless of > what magic you try to work at a higher level. I think I see the misunderstanding here. You think IDE disks are server parts. 8-). > > Surely, you aren't saying an Oracle Database would need a significant > > number of spindles in order to replicate another Oracle Database, > > when all bottlenecks between the two machines, down to the disks, > > are directly managed by a unified software set, written by Oracle? > > Yup. Indeed, this is *precisely* what is needed. Just try doing > this on a single 320GB hard drive. Or even a pair of 320GB hard > drives. IDE again. > We need enough drives with enough I/O capacity to handle the > transaction rates. We worry about disk space secondarily, because we > know that we can always buy the next size up. Use SCSI, or divide the load between a number of IDE spindles equal to the tagged command queue depth for a single SCSI drive (hmmm... should I buy five SCSI drives, or should I buy 500 IDE drives?). > > I'm not positive that it matters, one way or the other, in the > > long run, if thigs are implemented correctly. However, it is > > Esthetically pleasing, on many levels. > > Aesthetically pleasing or not, it is not practical. SIS causes > way too many problems and only solves issues that we don't really > care about. It gets rid of the quota problem. Heck, you could even store your indices on a SCSI drive, and then store your SIS on an IDE drive, if you wanted. > > Why the heck are you locking at a mailbox granularity, instead > > of a message granularity, for either of these operations? > > For IMAP, you need to lock at message granularity. But your > ability to do that will be dependant on your mailbox format. > Choosing a mailbox directory format has a whole host of associated > problems, as well understood and explained by Mark Crispin at > . Mark's wrong. His assumptions are incorrect, and based on the idea that metadata updates are not synchronous in all systems. He's worrying about a problem that only exists on some platforms, and he has to do that, because his software *may* have to run on those platforms. If you want me to get into criticizing his code, I can; at one point, I converted the UW IMAP server to C++, with a pure virtual base class for the driver interfaces, and then implemented each driver as an implementation class. There are tons of places that you would get runtime errors that doing this converts to compile time errors (e.g. potential NULL pointer dereferences turn into compilation errors about not having implementations for member functions in the pure virtual base class). At best, UW IMAP is an academic project. Cyrus is much closer to commercial usability, but it has it's own set of problems, too. Most of them, though, are solvable by adding depth to the mail directory, so that you can seperate out the metadata, and remove the "." separator restriction. > Either way, locking is a very important issue that has to be > solved, one way or the other. No, it's a very important issue that has to be designed around, rather than implemented. FreeBSD has this same problem: global resources with more than one acessor automatically require addition of locking. > I can tell you that the guys at Compuserve appeared to be > blissfully unaware of many scaling issues when they had one millions > customers and AOL had five million. I don't understand why, but > somewhere between those two numbers, a change in scale had become a > change in kind. Amen. > > I have read it. The modifications he proposes are small ones, > > which deal with impedence issues. They are low hanging fruit, > > available to a system administrator, not an in depth modification > > by a software engineer. > > The point is that these low-hanging fruit were enough to get Nick > to a point where he could serve multiple millions of customers using > this technology, and he didn't need to go any further. Yes, and no. It's very easy to paint a rosy picture in a technical paper, particularly when you are in a position to need to obtain funding. 8-). It's something else entirely to deal with support and scalability issues, to the point where you "just throw hardware" at the problem. Nick's solution seems to require a lot of manual load distribution, or a lot of proactive capacity planning, both of which are damaging, in terms of not locking up cash flow. 8-(. [ ... Nick's Magic Mail ... ] > I can't adopt his solution. He did POP3, I'm doing IMAP. > > The mailbox formats have to change, because we have to assume > multiple simultaneous processes accessing it (unlike POP3). He did > just fine with mailbox locking (or methods to work around that > problem). I need message locking (or methods to work around that > problem). There are a whole series of other domino-effect changes > that end up making the end solution totally different. > > Simply put, there just aren't that many medium-scale IMAP > implementations in the world, period. Even after my LISA 2000 paper, > there still haven't been *any* truly large-scale IMAP > implementations, despite things like > , > , > , > , > and . > > Certainly, so far as I can tell, none of them have used NFS as > the underlying mailbox storage method. You are unlikely to ever find someone using NFS in this capacity, except as a back end for a single server message store. What you appear to be asking for is a way to store all the mail on a big NetApp Filer, and then have a bunch of front end machines accessing the same mailboxes (inbound SMTP severs and outbound and inbound IMAP4 acessors. I submit that you've got a lot of work ahead of you. I've personally got code that can do it, but I have six months into it, and I value it at over $3M. [ ... level of depth of understanding ... ] > Give me such a box and wait until I've gotten this project out of > the way, and I'll be glad to do this sort of thing. I'm setting up > my own consulting business, and a large part of the work I want to do > is in relation to research on scaling issues. This would be right up > my alley. The point was that, without making changes requiring an in depth understanding of the code of the components involved, which Nick's solution doesn't really demonstrate, you're never going to get more than "marginally better" numbers. [ ... ] > Cyrus doesn't work on NFS. Most of the commercial products I've > been able to find are based on Cyrus or Cyrus-like technology and > don't support NFS, either. The ones I've been able to find that > would (theoretically) support NFS are based on Courier-IMAP, and run > on Linux on PCs. It works on NFS. You just have to run the delivery agent on the same machine that's running the access agent, and not try to mix multiple hosts accessing the same data. I understand you want a distributed, replicated message store, or at least the appearance of one, but in order to get that, well, you have to "write a distributed, replicated message store". > One of the other can't-change criteria for this system is that it > has to run on SPARC/Solaris, so for example Bynari Insight Server is > not an option. The part of Netscape that Sun bought used to provide an IMAP4 server (based on heavily modified UW IMAP code). Is there a reason you can't use that? I guess the answer must be "I have been directed to use Open Source". 8-). > > How many maildrops does this need to support? I will tell you if > > your project will fail. 8-(. > > ~1800 LAN ene-mail clients initially, quickly growing to > ~3000-4000, and possible growth to ~6,000-10,000. [ ... lot of stats ... ] This should be no problem. You should be able to handle this with a single machine, IMO, without worrying about locking, at all. 10,000 client machines is nothing. At worst, you should seperate inbound and outbound SMTP servers, so you can treat the inbound one as a bastion host, and keep the outbound entirely inside, and the inbound server should use a transport protocol for internal delivery to the machine running the IMAP4 server, which makes lockign go away. At worst, you can limit the number of bastion to internal server connections, which will make things queue up at the bastion, if you get a large activity burst, and let it drain out to the internal server, over time. At most, you are well under 40,000 simultaneous TCP connections to the IMAP4 server host, even if you are using OutLook, people have two mailboxes open, each, and are monitoring incoming mail in several folders. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 19: 4:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C865337B401 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be (c3po.skynet.be [195.238.3.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A6243F85 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by c3po.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1E33fYb018722; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:04:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:53:06 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:14 AM -0800 2003/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Okay, what parts of the problem doesn't Perdition solve? > > Replication and failover. True. But is the POP3/IMAP4 proxy really the best place to try to solve this problem? > The bck end stores that the Perdition proxy accesses have to have > the content locally available. Yup, that's a back-end issue, not one that Perdition can solve. > The result is that you provide a unified view onto a backend farm, > but you lack replication and failover in the back-end, and it does > not magically appear, merely because you are running Perdition. Fair enough. But how does this relate to the domain problem? That's all you had mentioned previously. > There are other POP3 and IMAP4 proxies that can do the same things > Perdition can: it's no big deal. I've done some research in this area. I'd be interested to know which ones you're talking about. > In fact, it doesn't deal with > LDAP, which is probably where the routing to the back end store will > occur. Do I really need to quote the relevant sections of perdition/db/ldap/perdition.schema, dated Mar 27, 2002? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 19: 4:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A054037B40A for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be (c3po.skynet.be [195.238.3.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4329943F85 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by c3po.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1E33fYd018722; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:04:35 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:44:16 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:09 AM -0800 2003/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > OK, then why do you keep talking about I/O throughput? Do you > mean *network I/O*? Why the hell would you care about disk I/O > on a properly designed message store, when the bottleneck is > going to first be network I/O, followed closely by bus bandwidth? Disk I/O is many orders of magnitude slower than any other thing on the system. Moreover, disk I/O suffers from issues with synchronous meta-data updates where entire directories must be locked for the entire period of time during which an update is occuring, thus reducing by many more orders of magnitude the number of small operations (e.g., file creation and deletion, renaming, updating of other file attributes, etc...) that we can perform in a given unit of time. This is an issue for MTAs, and is an issue for message stores, especially when the message stores use a meta-data intensive storage mechanism such as found in Maildir and Cyrus (to a lesser degree). > So what's the difference between not enforcing a quota, and ending > up with the email sitting on your disks in a user maildrop, or > enforcing a quota, and ending up with the email sitting on your > disks in an MTA queue? In "free" systems, quotas are frequently set ridiculously low. In systems with a sustainable business model, you pay for the storage you use. If you want a higher quota, you pay for it (one way or another). In those situations, quotas rarely need to be enforced, and this problem is not one that is faced very often. In the case where you do have this issue, at the very least you can hold the message in the queue for a while, in the hope that the user will come clean out their mailbox. > Quotas are actually a strong argument for single image storage. SIS increases SPOFs, reduces reliability, increases complexity, increases the probability of hot-spots and other forms of contention, and all for very little possible benefit. > Obviously, unless setting the quota low on purpose is your revenue > model (HotMail, Yahoo Mail). As I said above, "free" systems frequently set quotas ridiculously low. They are not of interest for this discussion. > How? It's going to sit on your disks, no matter what, the only > choice you really have on it is *which* disk it's going to sit on. True, but it's easier for me to deal with multiple gigabyes of DOS crap in the mail queue than it is for the user to try to deal with multiple gigabytes of crap in their mailbox. There are things that they need to be protected from, because they don't have the access or the power on their end. If they did, they wouldn't need us. >> If 95-99% of all users never even notice that there is a quota, >> then I've solved the part of the problem that is feasible to solve. >> The remainder cannot possibly be solved with any quota at any level, >> and these users need to be dealt with separately. > > Again, how? Outside of the DOS problem, they need education and proper management of their expectations. TANSTAAFL. > Flood fill will only work as part of an individual infrastructure, > not as part of a shared infrasstrusture, if what you are trying to > sell is to be any different from what everyone else is giving away > for free. Ahh, something akin to the Yasushi model. See . When restricted to the network internal to the mail system, replicating the mailbox over multiple servers is not a bad idea, although I don't think it matters so much what replication model you use. >> If you store them on the recipient system, you have what exists >> today for e-mail. Of the three, this is the only one that has proved >> sustainable (so far) and sufficiently reliable. > > This argument is flawed. Messages are not stored on recipient > systems, they are stored on the systems of the ISP that the > recipient subscribes to. That's what I was calling the "recipient system". It is the system where the message was received. > Yet those same guarantees are specifically disclaimed by HotMail > and other "free" providers, even though there is no technological > difference between a POP3 maildrop hosted at EarthLink and accessed > via a mail client, and a POP3/IMAP4 maildrop hosted at HotMail and > accessed via a mail client. Again, you're referencing situations that I consider to be irrelevant to the discussion. I don't give a flying flip about the poor business model they employ. I care about real systems that are paid for by real people and real companies. > Who the hell uses IDE on servers?!? Get real! You can't detach an > IDE drive during the data transfer on a write, so tagged command > queueing only works for *reading* data. For a server that does writes, > you use *SCSI* (or something else, but *not* IDE). Okay, so two 15kRPM SCSI hard drives, or FibreChannel. The type of interface doesn't matter when you're talking about a number of disks that is grossly inadequate to the task. > I think I see the misunderstanding here. You think IDE disks are > server parts. 8-). No, not at all. I think that focusing on disk storage capacity and not paying attention to disk I/O latency and I/O capacity is pure folly. > Use SCSI, or divide the load between a number of IDE spindles > equal to the tagged command queue depth for a single SCSI drive > (hmmm... should I buy five SCSI drives, or should I buy 500 IDE > drives?). See above. Regardless of the drive interface technology, what's important is the I/O latency and the I/O capacity. > It gets rid of the quota problem. No, not at all. You eliminate damn few duplicate messages, you greatly increase system complexity, you increase SPOFs, you increase system hot-spots, you reduce system reliability (and replication, something which you seem to be so fond of), and all for very, very little benefit. Try taking a real-world mail server and processing the logs. Count the number of recipients per message and see just how much space you'd actually save. I did that, and included my numbers in the previous message -- an average of ~1.3 recipients per message. You want to do all this for about 30% savings?!? > Heck, you could even store your indices on a SCSI drive, and then > store your SIS on an IDE drive, if you wanted. See above. This is pointless. > Mark's wrong. His assumptions are incorrect, and based on the > idea that metadata updates are not synchronous in all systems. Meta-data updates are at least partially synchronous on all systems I know of. Well, unless you are running with asynchronous mounts, but if you're doing that then you shouldn't be running a mail system until you understand why that's a bad idea. Even if they're not synchronous, they're still bottlenecks to be avoided if possible. > Cyrus is much closer to commercial usability, but it has it's own > set of problems, too. It is somewhat closer. If you want real commercial usability, you have to start with the MessagingDirect code, which is based on Cyrus but with lots of bug fixes, increased reliability and robustness, etc.... Then you graduate to Sendmail Advanced Message Server, which takes that to the next level. >> Either way, locking is a very important issue that has to be >> solved, one way or the other. > > No, it's a very important issue that has to be designed around, > rather than implemented. Somebody said that when they invented Maildir. I didn't believe it then, and I don't believe it now. > Yes, and no. It's very easy to paint a rosy picture in a technical > paper, particularly when you are in a position to need to obtain > funding. Nick didn't need any funding. He was describing a project that was largely complete, and which he had already left by that time. He definitely made use of that design at various customer sites while working for Sendmail, but he couldn't possibly have known that at the time. > You are unlikely to ever find someone using NFS in this capacity, > except as a back end for a single server message store. Show me an IMAP server that actually implements SIS. I don't know of any. > The point was that, without making changes requiring an in depth > understanding of the code of the components involved, which Nick's > solution doesn't really demonstrate, you're never going to get more > than "marginally better" numbers. Could be. In that case, we may have to find an alternative message store solution. If I can prove that this really is a problem, then I'll try to help them find a suitable SAN solution and then drop in SAMS. If not, I may end up writing a paper or doing another invited talk. > It works on NFS. You just have to run the delivery agent on the > same machine that's running the access agent, and not try to mix > multiple hosts accessing the same data. Nope. mmap on NFS doesn't work. > I understand you want a distributed, replicated message store, or > at least the appearance of one, but in order to get that, well, > you have to "write a distributed, replicated message store". A distributed, replicated message store would be nice, but is not strictly a requirement of this solution. One thing that was originally given as an absolute requirement was to find a way to put an e-mail front end on NFS. The distributed, replicated message store was a side-effect. Indeed, the architecture already has a concept of a primary server for a particular mailbox (as determined by LDAP), the only thing we'd have to change is whether or not that mailbox was also accessible from the other servers. However, we do have only one message store mount point at the moment. > The part of Netscape that Sun bought used to provide an IMAP4 > server (based on heavily modified UW IMAP code). Is there a > reason you can't use that? I guess the answer must be "I have > been directed to use Open Source". 8-). Actually, no. They would much prefer commercial software. However, they don't have any money to spend on software, and I know from personal experience that the Netscape/iPlanet stuff doesn't scale. Indeed, we're already in the process of scrapping all other Netscape/iPlanet software because we've had excessive problems with it. > This should be no problem. You should be able to handle this > with a single machine, IMO, without worrying about locking, at > all. Remember, Maildir doesn't do locking. > 10,000 client machines is nothing. 10,000 LAN clients? With 44MB messages and 200MB mailboxes? On NFS? Sorry, my testing so far indicates that this is a significant load and we need to take care to make sure that it is handled properly. > At worst, you should > seperate inbound and outbound SMTP servers, Already planned. > so you can treat the > inbound one as a bastion host, and keep the outbound entirely > inside, and the inbound server should use a transport protocol > for internal delivery to the machine running the IMAP4 server, > which makes lockign go away. How does locking go away? Through Maildir? Or did you have something else in mind? > At worst, you can limit the number > of bastion to internal server connections, which will make things > queue up at the bastion, if you get a large activity burst, and > let it drain out to the internal server, over time. I'm not worried about internal SMTP connections. But we have to be careful to make sure we don't put any additional limits on POP3 or IMAP connections. > At most, > you are well under 40,000 simultaneous TCP connections to the > IMAP4 server host, even if you are using OutLook, people have > two mailboxes open, each, and are monitoring incoming mail in > several folders. Sorry, I am still not convinced. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 23:10:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E7337B405 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038BA43F85 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:10:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0261.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.6] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jZze-0006Zu-00; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:10:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4C9612.2777D62E@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:09:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4cf7f848d90f6bf143d51188ca6baf5fd666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:14 AM -0800 2003/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Okay, what parts of the problem doesn't Perdition solve? > > > > Replication and failover. > > True. But is the POP3/IMAP4 proxy really the best place to try > to solve this problem? No... but does proxy really solve anything, then, more than a DNS rotor solves? All it really does is add a single point of failure. Unless you can target a subset of back end content servers, you might as well use DNS round-robin. Using a proxy implies the back end replica problem is *already* solved. > > The result is that you provide a unified view onto a backend farm, > > but you lack replication and failover in the back-end, and it does > > not magically appear, merely because you are running Perdition. > > Fair enough. But how does this relate to the domain problem? > That's all you had mentioned previously. A proxy server doesn't solve the domain problem; Perdition was *your* answer to the domain problem. 8-). > > There are other POP3 and IMAP4 proxies that can do the same things > > Perdition can: it's no big deal. > > I've done some research in this area. I'd be interested to know > which ones you're talking about. The Cyrus one seems OK. Personally, I'd never use a proxy for this, except to front-end the authentication. Even then, it's somewhat of a tossup as to whether it really has any utility, unless it's capable of targetting a subset of the back end (in other words, it has a priori knowledge of where the replica lives; maybe it does LDAP lookups to select a backend server to point the client to). At that point, you are better taking the LARD/CARD approach, and adding "referral" to the IMAP4 protocol, and just handling it at the server level as a peering relationship, so the reason you'd do it is to avoid modifying client programs. > > In fact, it doesn't deal with > > LDAP, which is probably where the routing to the back end store will > > occur. > > Do I really need to quote the relevant sections of > perdition/db/ldap/perdition.schema, dated Mar 27, 2002? Maybe I should say "doesn't deal with LDAP the way it should" instead? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 1:42:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7330937B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BD643F93 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:42:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0261.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.6] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jcMU-0003k5-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:42:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:40:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4de82ac7e3a221f528db8bb06dbe8d420a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:09 AM -0800 2003/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > > OK, then why do you keep talking about I/O throughput? Do you > > mean *network I/O*? Why the hell would you care about disk I/O > > on a properly designed message store, when the bottleneck is > > going to first be network I/O, followed closely by bus bandwidth? > > Disk I/O is many orders of magnitude slower than any other thing > on the system. If you can saturate 50% of a PCI bus, and the other half of that goes to networking, you are set, as far as disk I/O speed. If you are using an NFS server (which you are), then it's based on your ability to saturate your network device. > Moreover, disk I/O suffers from issues with synchronous meta-data > updates where entire directories must be locked for the entire > period of time during which an update is occuring, thus reducing > by many more orders of magnitude the number of small operations > (e.g., file creation and deletion, renaming, updating of other file > attributes, etc...) that we can perform in a given unit of time. Disagree. These locking issues are an artifact of the system design (FS, application, or both). > This is an issue for MTAs, and is an issue for message stores, > especially when the message stores use a meta-data intensive storage > mechanism such as found in Maildir and Cyrus (to a lesser degree). Simple answer: Don't use a metadata intensive storage mechanism. > > So what's the difference between not enforcing a quota, and ending > > up with the email sitting on your disks in a user maildrop, or > > enforcing a quota, and ending up with the email sitting on your > > disks in an MTA queue? [ ... bogus business model ... ] > In the case > where you do have this issue, at the very least you can hold the > message in the queue for a while, in the hope that the user will come > clean out their mailbox. In other words, the message takes up your disk space, no matter what. > > Quotas are actually a strong argument for single image storage. > > SIS increases SPOFs, reduces reliability, increases complexity, > increases the probability of hot-spots and other forms of contention, > and all for very little possible benefit. The only one of these I agree with is that it increases complexity. > > Obviously, unless setting the quota low on purpose is your revenue > > model (HotMail, Yahoo Mail). > > As I said above, "free" systems frequently set quotas > ridiculously low. They are not of interest for this discussion. This discussion *started* because there was a set of list floods, and someone made a stupid remark about an important researcher indicating he was cancelling his subscription to the -hackers mailing list over it, and I pointed out to the person belittling the important researcher that such flooding has consequences that depend on the mail transport technology over and above "just having to delete a bunch of identical email". > > How? It's going to sit on your disks, no matter what, the only > > choice you really have on it is *which* disk it's going to sit on. > > True, but it's easier for me to deal with multiple gigabyes of > DOS crap in the mail queue than it is for the user to try to deal > with multiple gigabytes of crap in their mailbox. There are things > that they need to be protected from, because they don't have the > access or the power on their end. If they did, they wouldn't need us. They need the middlemen because there are antidisintermediation strategies in use on most leaf node connections to the Internet, not because the middlement have some inherent value that can be obtained no other way. 8-|. As far as "dealing with DOS", in for a penny, in for a pound: if you are willing to burn CPU cycles, then implement Sieve or some other technology to permit server-side filtering. In reality, we both know that at some point it becomes too computationally expensive to deal with thise sort of thing on the ISP side of things, and that there's an impedence mismatch in the transport mechanism vs. the bandwidth reduction point. That's exactly the niche that "value added email services" attempt to exploit (fee for compute resources on the fat side of the pipe). We also know that, for most DOS cases on maildrops, the user simply loses, and that's that. > >> If 95-99% of all users never even notice that there is a quota, > >> then I've solved the part of the problem that is feasible to solve. > >> The remainder cannot possibly be solved with any quota at any level, > >> and these users need to be dealt with separately. > > > > Again, how? > > Outside of the DOS problem, they need education and proper > management of their expectations. TANSTAAFL. Let's quit talking about the free services. Outside of funneling idiots into the Microsoft Passport or competing Yahoo "single signon" mechanisms, the free mail services are loss-leaders. The business model is simply unsustainable. Neither service offers that they will *guarantee* commision to stable storage before sending the "250 OK" response and taking ultimate responsibility that the message will not be lost/dropped/dumped/hacked prior to final delivery at *any* level of payment. So let's limit ourselves to the realm of LWCYM - "Lunches Which Cost You Money". > > Flood fill will only work as part of an individual infrastructure, > > not as part of a shared infrasstrusture, if what you are trying to > > sell is to be any different from what everyone else is giving away > > for free. > > Ahh, something akin to the Yasushi model. See > . > > When restricted to the network internal to the mail system, > replicating the mailbox over multiple servers is not a bad idea, > although I don't think it matters so much what replication model you > use. The replication model is actually a pretty profound issue. Prior to replication, if you connect to one of the replicas, the message can be seen as "in transit". Post deletion on an original prior to the replication, and the deletion can bee seen as "in transit". The worst case failure modes are that a message has increased apparent delivery latency, or the message "comes back" after it's deleted. Both of these are acceptable, in terms of failure modes, particularly if you compare them to the alternatives. > >> If you store them on the recipient system, you have what exists > >> today for e-mail. Of the three, this is the only one that has proved > >> sustainable (so far) and sufficiently reliable. > > > > This argument is flawed. Messages are not stored on recipient > > systems, they are stored on the systems of the ISP that the > > recipient subscribes to. > > That's what I was calling the "recipient system". It is the > system where the message was received. This is not useful to talk about in terms of a POP3 maildrop. To all intents and purposes, message in a POP3 maildrop are "in transit on a point to point mail transport". That's really the whole point of acknowledging a "pull" technology exists, in the first place. > > Yet those same guarantees are specifically disclaimed by HotMail > > and other "free" providers, even though there is no technological > > difference between a POP3 maildrop hosted at EarthLink and accessed > > via a mail client, and a POP3/IMAP4 maildrop hosted at HotMail and > > accessed via a mail client. > > Again, you're referencing situations that I consider to be > irrelevant to the discussion. I don't give a flying flip about the > poor business model they employ. I care about real systems that are > paid for by real people and real companies. Good, then we are in agreement that we will not reference things like quotas and so on, which are artifacts of their business model, and not things which actually save anyone total disk space. 8-). [ ... ] > > I think I see the misunderstanding here. You think IDE disks are > > server parts. 8-). > > No, not at all. I think that focusing on disk storage capacity > and not paying attention to disk I/O latency and I/O capacity is pure > folly. The majority of that latency is an artifact of the FS technology, not an artifact of the disk technology, except as it impacts the ability of the FS technology to be implemented without stall barriers (e.g. IDE write data transfers not permitting disconnect ruin your whole day). > > It gets rid of the quota problem. > > No, not at all. You eliminate damn few duplicate messages, you > greatly increase system complexity, you increase SPOFs, you increase > system hot-spots, you reduce system reliability (and replication, > something which you seem to be so fond of), and all for very, very > little benefit. Unless I can use someone else's stored copy of the message to recover my corrupted stored copy of the message, that's not replication, it's duplication. The reason I brought up SIS again is that you seemed more than willing to let a message sit in the main mail queue, but almost paniced at the idea of throwing it into the user mailbox instead. The only legitimate reason for such a panic is if you felt that moving it into the user's mailbox would result in amplification of the disk space being used. Otherwise, you've already accepted responsibility for delivery of the message, and deleting it out of the mail queue is not really an option. > Try taking a real-world mail server and processing the logs. > Count the number of recipients per message and see just how much > space you'd actually save. I did that, and included my numbers in > the previous message -- an average of ~1.3 recipients per message. > > You want to do all this for about 30% savings?!? Nope; I want to do it to get you to agree to turn off quotas, if your business model is not based on the idea that it's OK to drop email into /dev/null for customers who don't pay you more money. > > Mark's wrong. His assumptions are incorrect, and based on the > > idea that metadata updates are not synchronous in all systems. > > Meta-data updates are at least partially synchronous on all > systems I know of. Well, unless you are running with asynchronous > mounts, but if you're doing that then you shouldn't be running a mail > system until you understand why that's a bad idea. > > Even if they're not synchronous, they're still bottlenecks to be > avoided if possible. FS design issue. And metadata updates in FreeBSD (with soft updates) or SVR4.2 or Solaris (with delayed ordered writes) are *NOT* synchronous, they are merely ordered. > > Cyrus is much closer to commercial usability, but it has it's own > > set of problems, too. > > It is somewhat closer. If you want real commercial usability, > you have to start with the MessagingDirect code, which is based on > Cyrus but with lots of bug fixes, increased reliability and > robustness, etc.... Then you graduate to Sendmail Advanced Message > Server, which takes that to the next level. You limited my options to Open Source, however. > >> Either way, locking is a very important issue that has to be > >> solved, one way or the other. > > > > No, it's a very important issue that has to be designed around, > > rather than implemented. > > Somebody said that when they invented Maildir. I didn't believe > it then, and I don't believe it now. Maildir is a kludge aound NFS locking. Nothing more, and nothing less. > > You are unlikely to ever find someone using NFS in this capacity, > > except as a back end for a single server message store. > > Show me an IMAP server that actually implements SIS. I don't know of any. MS Exchange does, and so does Lotus Notes. I know they suck, but they are examples. In the Open Source world, you're not going to find one: another problem that Open Source has is an inability to tackle problems above a certain level of complexity. > > The point was that, without making changes requiring an in depth > > understanding of the code of the components involved, which Nick's > > solution doesn't really demonstrate, you're never going to get more > > than "marginally better" numbers. > > Could be. In that case, we may have to find an alternative > message suore solution. If I can prove that this really is a > problem, then I'll try to help them find a suitable SAN solution and > then drop in SAMS. If not, I may end up writing a paper or doing > another invited talk. 8-). > > It works on NFS. You just have to run the delivery agent on the > > same machine that's running the access agent, and not try to mix > > multiple hosts accessing the same data. > > Nope. mmap on NFS doesn't work. Who's using mmap?!? [ ... ] > > The part of Netscape that Sun bought used to provide an IMAP4 > > server (based on heavily modified UW IMAP code). Is there a > > reason you can't use that? I guess the answer must be "I have > > been directed to use Open Source". 8-). > > Actually, no. They would much prefer commercial software. > However, they don't have any money to spend on software, and I know > from personal experience that the Netscape/iPlanet stuff doesn't > scale. Indeed, we're already in the process of scrapping all other > Netscape/iPlanet software because we've had excessive problems with > it. This is interesting to know; from the documentation available, they imply they scale, and a single instance of one seems to match their claims for a single instance. I guess it's always worse than the marketing literature, when you deploy it. 8-(. > > This should be no problem. You should be able to handle this > > with a single machine, IMO, without worrying about locking, at > > all. > > Remember, Maildir doesn't do locking. > > > 10,000 client machines is nothing. > > 10,000 LAN clients? With 44MB messages and 200MB mailboxes? On > NFS? Sorry, my testing so far indicates that this is a significant > load and we need to take care to make sure that it is handled > properly. 40 seconds to transfer on a Gigabit ethernet... assuming you can get it of the disks. 8-). Do you really expect them all simultaneously? > > so you can treat the > > inbound one as a bastion host, and keep the outbound entirely > > inside, and the inbound server should use a transport protocol > > for internal delivery to the machine running the IMAP4 server, > > which makes lockign go away. > > How does locking go away? Through Maildir? Or did you have > something else in mind? You don't need to assert a lock over NFS, if the only machine doing the reading is the one doing the writing, and it asserts the lock locally (this was more talking about the Cyrus cache files, not maildir). > > At worst, you can limit the number > > of bastion to internal server connections, which will make things > > queue up at the bastion, if you get a large activity burst, and > > let it drain out to the internal server, over time. > > I'm not worried about internal SMTP connections. But we have to > be careful to make sure we don't put any additional limits on POP3 or > IMAP connections. I was talking about machine capacity for connections. POP3 is one at a time, IMAP4 is (usually, worst case) 4 per client. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 10:14:52 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CB637B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from wolfbert.skynet.be (wolfbert.skynet.be [195.238.3.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB2743FBD for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by wolfbert.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-FALLBACK-2.22) with ESMTP id h1EER7Zr020786 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:27:34 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1EEQlHp020920; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:26:56 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4C9612.2777D62E@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> <3E4C9612.2777D62E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:03:47 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:09 PM -0800 2003/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > No... but does proxy really solve anything, then, more than > a DNS rotor solves? All it really does is add a single point > of failure. Unless you can target a subset of back end content > servers, you might as well use DNS round-robin. Using a proxy > implies the back end replica problem is *already* solved. Yes, the proxy does solve the domain problem. The user logs in with "user@domain", the proxy looks this up in the LDAP database, which then tells it which back-end server to contact. You can decide, on a user-by-user basis, which back-end server they will be using for their mail. If one back-end server gets overloaded, you can choose individual users to shift off to another machine. Besides, you don't use just one front-end proxy. You use them in sets of at least two, and you drop L3/L4 load balancing switches in front of them, and the L3/L4 switches get DNS round-robin. The switches handle balancing the connection load, and the proxy+database handles the balancing of user mailboxes over the set of potentially asymmetric back-end servers. The issue of replication is a totally different matter. > Maybe I should say "doesn't deal with LDAP the way it should" > instead? In what way? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 10:44: 8 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BDA37B407 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wolfbert.skynet.be (wolfbert.skynet.be [195.238.3.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A101743F93 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:43:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by wolfbert.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-FALLBACK-2.22) with ESMTP id h1EExLZp022199 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:59:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1EEwn2o002496; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:58:51 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:58:09 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:40 AM -0800 2003/02/14, Terry Lambert wrote: > If you > are using an NFS server (which you are), then it's based on your > ability to saturate your network device. You're still limited by disk devices that may be used temporarily on the local server, as well as the disk devices on the other end of that network connection. Putting them on the network does not magically solve the problem that disk I/O is still many orders of magnitude slower than any other thing we ever do on computer systems. > Disagree. These locking issues are an artifact of the system > design (FS, application, or both). And you have magically solved all these problems in what way? > Simple answer: Don't use a metadata intensive storage mechanism. So, use what -- a pure memory-based file system for hundreds of gigabytes or even multiple terabytes of storage? Even that will still have synchronous meta-data update issues with regards to the in-memory directory structure, even if those operations do take place much faster. > In other words, the message takes up your disk space, no matter > what. I other words, I can protect the entire system from being taken down by a concerted DOS attack on a single user. They're going to have to work harder than that if they want to take down my entire system. >> SIS increases SPOFs, reduces reliability, increases complexity, >> increases the probability of hot-spots and other forms of contention, >> and all for very little possible benefit. > > The only one of these I agree with is that it increases complexity. In what way does SIS *not* increase SPOFs, reduce reliability, increase the probability of hot-spots and other forms of contention, and in what way does it magically solve all the storage problems of the system? > This discussion *started* because there was a set of list floods, > and someone made a stupid remark about an important researcher > indicating he was cancelling his subscription to the -hackers > mailing list over it, and I pointed out to the person belittling > the important researcher that such flooding has consequences that > depend on the mail transport technology over and above "just having > to delete a bunch of identical email". Okay, so let's say that you've got this magical SIS which solves all storage problems, and you let your users have unlimited disk space. All it takes is someone applying trivial changes to the messages so that they are not all actually identical, and you're back to storing at least one copy of each. Such transformations are typically found in message headers (message-ids are supposed to be unique, and combinations of date/time stamps and process ids will probably be unique, especially when taken over the entire message and the multiple hops it might have traversed). Such transformations are becoming much more typical with spam, where the recipient's name is part of the message body. So, you're right back where you started, and yet you've paid such a very high price. > As far as "dealing with DOS", in for a penny, in for a pound: if > you are willing to burn CPU cycles, then implement Sieve or some > other technology to permit server-side filtering. We're doing that, too. However, server-side filtering can only do so much. Yes, it can eliminate duplicates that have the same message-id (although there is some risk that you'll eliminate unique messages that have colliding ids), and there is the possibility to program it so that it can actually inspect the content and eliminate additional messages that have the same message body fingerprint as previously seen. But even that can only go so far. See above. > We also know that, for most DOS cases on maildrops, the user > simply loses, and that's that. True enough. But I don't have to throw out all of my users simply because just one of them was the target of a DOS. > Let's quit talking about the free services. Yes, please. > So let's limit ourselves to the realm of LWCYM - "Lunches Which > Cost You Money". Sounds good. > The replication model is actually a pretty profound issue. Prior > to replication, if you connect to one of the replicas, the message > can be seen as "in transit". Post deletion on an original prior to > the replication, and the deletion can bee seen as "in transit". The > worst case failure modes are that a message has increased apparent > delivery latency, or the message "comes back" after it's deleted. Yes, at another level, the particular replication model chosen will be important. However, at this level what we really care about is the fact that the message/mailbox is replicated, and we don't really care how. >> That's what I was calling the "recipient system". It is the >> system where the message was received. > > This is not useful to talk about in terms of a POP3 maildrop. Sure it is. I've got limited disk space that I can afford to give each user, in accordance to the amount of money that they are paying for their service (or is being paid on their behalf). But their local disk storage is limited only by their own budget (or the budget of their group), and is not an expense that I have to account for. So, when defining "recipient system", it makes perfect sense that this would be the point at which the mail is accumulated into some sort of a mailbox or queue and held on their behalf, regardless of whether that mailbox/queue is downloaded/retrieved with UUCP, POP3, IMAP4, or some other protocol. > To all intents and purposes, message in a POP3 maildrop are > "in transit on a point to point mail transport". That's really > the whole point of acknowledging a "pull" technology exists, in > the first place. Yes, there is another component to the system, which comprises the system of the end user, their bandwidth to the server that holds their mail, etc.... But this is not the "recipient system". This is the "end-user system". It's an important system in the overall scheme of things, but is different from the one we're talking about -- they manage their own end-user system, but I manage the recipient system(s). > The majority of that latency is an artifact of the FS technology, > not an artifact of the disk technology, except as it impacts the > ability of the FS technology to be implemented without stall > barriers (e.g. IDE write data transfers not permitting disconnect > ruin your whole day). Again, I'd like to know where you get this magic filesystem technology that solves all disk I/O performance issues and makes them as fast as a RAM disk, while also being 100% perfectly safe. > Unless I can use someone else's stored copy of the message to > recover my corrupted stored copy of the message, that's not > replication, it's duplication. Correct. But with only ~1.3 recipients per message (on average), there isn't much duplication to be had anyway. The whole replication issue is a different matter. > The reason I brought up SIS again is that you seemed more than > willing to let a message sit in the main mail queue, but almost > paniced at the idea of throwing it into the user mailbox instead. No, I don't panic "...at the idea of throwing it into the user mailbox...". I have defined queueing & buffering mechanisms that function system-wide, which help me resist problems with even large-scale DOS attacks, and help ensure that all the rest of my customers continue to receive service even if a single user has an overflowing mailbox. But it's easier to solve this problem at the system-wide level where I can allocate relatively large buffers, as opposed to inflicting it on the end user and letting them try to deal with it across their slow dial-up line (or whatever). > Nope; I want to do it to get you to agree to turn off quotas, > if your business model is not based on the idea that it's OK > to drop email into /dev/null for customers who don't pay you > more money. Bait not taken. The customer is paying me to implement quotas. This is a basic requirement. Moreover, even if it wasn't a basic requirement, I'd go back to the customer and make sure that they understood that they're placing the entire mail system for all thousands of users at risk if there is a single mail loop or a large DOS attack on a single user, where I have better tools to constrain these issues at a system-wide level. If they still said that they didn't want quotas, then I'd let someone else build the system for them -- I wouldn't want my name on it. I don't drop the stuff in /dev/null. I just put some limits on things so that I've got brakes that will automatically kick in and start slowing the train down if there is an excessive overspeed problem for an excessive period of time. > FS design issue. And metadata updates in FreeBSD (with soft > updates) or SVR4.2 or Solaris (with delayed ordered writes) are > *NOT* synchronous, they are merely ordered. Well, we're not talking about FreeBSD. I wish we were. However, I can assure you that UFS+Logging definitely has synchronous meta-data update issues -- making them ordered or putting them into a commit log and doing them in larger chunks does not eliminate them. Fortunately, in this case I have architected the system so that we shouldn't run into those problems very often. However, there's nothing I can do about synchronous meta-data issues with the network & filesystem implementation of the NFS server, and any related problems with the NFS client. > You limited my options to Open Source, however. Because there is no additional money to spend, open source is really the only practical choice. However, neither UW-IMAP nor Cyrus will work on NFS, thus leaving us with either the complete Courier package, or just the Courier-IMAP component. > Maildir is a kludge aound NFS locking. Nothing more, and nothing > less. Yup. And I'm convinced that it introduces more problems than it solves. But I still don't have much choice. > MS Exchange does, and so does Lotus Notes. I know they suck, but > they are examples. They're not IMAP servers. They are proprietary LAN e-mail systems that may happen to have an interface to this alien IMAP protocol. >> Nope. mmap on NFS doesn't work. > > Who's using mmap?!? Cyrus. All those databases it keeps to help inform it what the status is of the various messages, etc... are using mmap to access the information inside the database files. Or are you not familiar with the method of operation of tools like Berkeley DB? > This is interesting to know; from the documentation available, > they imply they scale, and a single instance of one seems to > match their claims for a single instance. I guess it's always > worse than the marketing literature, when you deploy it. 8-(. Actually, the Netscape/iPlanet e-mail server is just a re-badged SIMS, which is itself a partial port of PMDF from Vax/VMS to Unix, which was a port of the original MMDF from Unix to Vax/VMS. While I have a lot of respect for PMDF and the work that Innosoft did, we know from practical experience that SIMS can't scale beyond ~60,000 POP3 users with 5MB mailbox quotas, if you're using a Sun Enterprise 5500. At that point, if you want to add any new users, you must first delete some old ones. Belgacom Skynet bought a small ISP co-op in southern Belgium that was using SIMS as their mail system, and one of the reasons they were selling themselves to us was the fact that their mail system couldn't scale. We moved their users over to a system on a Sun E420R with an external Comparex D1400/Hitachi Data Systems DF400 RAID array which was already serving several hundred thousand users, and we didn't even notice. SIMS and Netscape/iPlanet mail server are dead-end products. Scott McNealy was very unpleasantly surprised when the Sun Europe guys sprung SIMS on him, and it is definitely going the way of the dodo. Note that Sun is a major investor in Sendmail, Inc. and they have on their payroll one of the key members of the Sendmail Consortium. > 40 seconds to transfer on a Gigabit ethernet... assuming you can get > it of the disks. 8-). Do you really expect them all simultaneously? Not a one of these machines has GigaBit Ethernet. They all have 100Base-TX FastEthernet, and the front-end machines may also have a second 100Base-TX FastEthernet interface (if I can scrounge a couple of NICs). The big problem is that most of the users will also have 100Base-TX FastEthernet. It won't take too many of them trying to access the server at once to completely swamp it. > You don't need to assert a lock over NFS, if the only machine doing > the reading is the one doing the writing, and it asserts the lock > locally (this was more talking about the Cyrus cache files, not > maildir). This assumes that there is only one machine ever writing to a particular mailbox. This is not a valid assumption. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 11: 4:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C998637B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B669443FBF for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:04:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0241.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.241] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jl8T-0004Se-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:04:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4D3D70.266DB2E4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:03:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> <3E4C9612.2777D62E@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4ecdef25142ca04a22fb62899028c08c093caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:09 PM -0800 2003/02/13, Terry Lambert wrote: > > No... but does proxy really solve anything, then, more than > > a DNS rotor solves? All it really does is add a single point > > of failure. Unless you can target a subset of back end content > > servers, you might as well use DNS round-robin. Using a proxy > > implies the back end replica problem is *already* solved. > > Yes, the proxy does solve the domain problem. The user logs in > with "user@domain", the proxy looks this up in the LDAP database, > which then tells it which back-end server to contact. You can > decide, on a user-by-user basis, which back-end server they will be > using for their mail. If one back-end server gets overloaded, you > can choose individual users to shift off to another machine. I solved this particular problem by modifying Cyrus to know about domains. But the point was kind of that there are IMAP4 clients that strip "@.*" off logins, if they have "@" in them. > > Maybe I should say "doesn't deal with LDAP the way it should" > > instead? > > In what way? The LDAP should be used to determine the set of back end servers, not to strip the domain name, and use it to pick a domain-specific back end server. The reason this is true should be obvious: if it doesn't, then the number of domains you can support is limited to, at most, the number of back end servers. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 12:30:54 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8339D37B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283BA43FAF for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1EKUa2s015032; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:30:45 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4D3D70.266DB2E4@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C434.D8D497EE@mindspring.com> <3E4A83BC.8A15E7C3@mindspring.com> <3E4B12F5.2608BBB@mindspring.com> <3E4BB64E.A9AEED28@mindspring.com> <3E4C9612.2777D62E@mindspring.com> <3E4D3D70.266DB2E4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:29:41 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:03 AM -0800 2003/02/14, Terry Lambert wrote: > I solved this particular problem by modifying Cyrus to know > about domains. But the point was kind of that there are IMAP4 > clients that strip "@.*" off logins, if they have "@" in them. Sorry, client problems are things I can't fix. > The LDAP should be used to determine the set of back end servers, > not to strip the domain name, and use it to pick a domain-specific > back end server. The reason this is true should be obvious: if it > doesn't, then the number of domains you can support is limited to, > at most, the number of back end servers. I believe that Perdition maps a given user@domain string to a unique username on a given back-end machine. Therefore, you should be able to support an indefinite number of domains on a small number of back-end machines. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 15:10:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871CD37B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6051A43FBD for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.247.143.154.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.143.154] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18joyD-0005OK-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:10:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4D7702.8EE51F54@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:08:50 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a42f662a1959d78bcfdd440a618c3c44d83ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > You're still limited by disk devices that may be used temporarily > on the local server, as well as the disk devices on the other end of > that network connection. Putting them on the network does not > magically solve the problem that disk I/O is still many orders of > magnitude slower than any other thing we ever do on computer systems. I've got to say that on any mail server I've ever worked on, the limitation on what it could handle was *never* disk I/O, unless it was before trivial tuning had been done. It was always network I/O, bus bandwidth, or CPU. As far as I'm concerned, for most applications, "disks are fast enough"; even an IDE disk doing thermal recalibration can keep up with full frame rate digitized video for simultaneous record and playback. 5 of those, and you're at the limit of 100Mbit ethernet in and out, and you need 5 for RAID. FWIW, since you really don't give a damn about timestamps on the queue files in question, etc., you can relax POSIX guarantees on certain metadata updates that were put there to make the DEC VMS engineers happy by slowing down UNIX, relative to VMS, so they would not file lawsuit from POSIX being required for gvernment contracts. > > Disagree. These locking issues are an artifact of the system > > design (FS, application, or both). > > And you have magically solved all these problems in what way? By writing an appropriate filesystem for the task at hand, and by using the stacking proxy described in Heidemann's Master's Thesis from the FICUS project, the source of FreeBSD stacking vnode code. > > Simple answer: Don't use a metadata intensive storage mechanism. > > So, use what -- a pure memory-based file system for hundreds of > gigabytes or even multiple terabytes of storage? Even that will > still have synchronous meta-data update issues with regards to the > in-memory directory structure, even if those operations do take place > much faster. No, not "pure memory". Survey all the metadata you update. Then survey all the metadata that you *ned* to update, and subtract the one from the other, and turn the rest off. Trivially, look at the "noasync" mount option, or the "inode FS". > > In other words, the message takes up your disk space, no matter > > what. > > I other words, I can protect the entire system from being taken > down by a concerted DOS attack on a single user. They're going to > have to work harder than that if they want to take down my entire > system. Like that's frigging hard. > >> SIS increases SPOFs, reduces reliability, increases complexity, > >> increases the probability of hot-spots and other forms of contention, > >> and all for very little possible benefit. > > > > The only one of these I agree with is that it increases complexity. > > In what way does SIS *not* increase SPOFs, reduce reliability, > increase the probability of hot-spots and other forms of contention, Because those are not magically a consequence of increased complexity. Complexity can be managed. > and in what way does it magically solve all the storage problems of > the system? It doesn't solve *all* of them. As I stated, you have to do in depth modification of the software involved. Turning off mailboxes and turning on maildirs in the software hardly qualifies as "in depth". > > This discussion *started* because there was a set of list floods, > > and someone made a stupid remark about an important researcher > > indicating he was cancelling his subscription to the -hackers > > mailing list over it, and I pointed out to the person belittling > > the important researcher that such flooding has consequences that > > depend on the mail transport technology over and above "just having > > to delete a bunch of identical email". > > Okay, so let's say that you've got this magical SIS which solves > all storage problems, and you let your users have unlimited disk > space. All it takes is someone applying trivial changes to the > messages so that they are not all actually identical, and you're back > to storing at least one copy of each. And they are back to transmitting 1 copy each, and they lose their amplification effect in any attack. > Such transformations are typically found in message headers > (message-ids are supposed to be unique, and combinations of date/time > stamps and process ids will probably be unique, especially when taken > over the entire message and the multiple hops it might have > traversed). Only if the messages came in on seperate sessions, and they are back to transmitting 1 copy each, and they lose their amplification effect in any attack. > Such transformations are becoming much more typical with spam, > where the recipient's name is part of the message body. And they are back to transmitting 1 copy each, and they lose their amplification effect in any attack. > So, you're right back where you started, and yet you've paid such > a very high price. It's a price you have to pay anyway. What the difference between a hard RT system, and a soft RT system? The major difference is that a hard RT system achieves bounded time processing for kernel operations, and does so by supporting kernel preemption, which requires function reentrancy. What's the difference between a UP system and a single system image shared memory SMP system? The major difference is that a shared memory SMP system supports kernel reentrancy, which requires function reentrancy. Solve 100% of one problem, you solve 90% of the other. You have to solve 90% of the SIS problem anyway, you might as well solve the remaining 10%. > > As far as "dealing with DOS", in for a penny, in for a pound: if > > you are willing to burn CPU cycles, then implement Sieve or some > > other technology to permit server-side filtering. > > We're doing that, too. However, server-side filtering can only > do so much. Yes, it can eliminate duplicates that have the same > message-id (although there is some risk that you'll eliminate unique > messages that have colliding ids), and there is the possibility to > program it so that it can actually inspect the content and eliminate > additional messages that have the same message body fingerprint as > previously seen. > > But even that can only go so far. See above. And it can do all the SPAM filtering that people keep saying the user's mail client should do, because they think everyone has broadband. If a customer has broadband, and sets their polling interval at the default for OutLook, then all of the problems with server side storage for both the customer and the provider move to the customer's machine, instead. > > We also know that, for most DOS cases on maildrops, the user > > simply loses, and that's that. > > True enough. But I don't have to throw out all of my users > simply because just one of them was the target of a DOS. You mean "simply because we, the provider, failed to protect them from a DOS". > > The replication model is actually a pretty profound issue. Prior > > to replication, if you connect to one of the replicas, the message > > can be seen as "in transit". Post deletion on an original prior to > > the replication, and the deletion can bee seen as "in transit". The > > worst case failure modes are that a message has increased apparent > > delivery latency, or the message "comes back" after it's deleted. > > Yes, at another level, the particular replication model chosen > will be important. However, at this level what we really care about > is the fact that the message/mailbox is replicated, and we don't > really care how. I think you still care how. I think you care because create event propagation has to be more reliable than delete event propagation, because of the failure cases. [ ... ] > So, when defining "recipient system", it makes perfect sense that > this would be the point at which the mail is accumulated into some > sort of a mailbox or queue and held on their behalf, regardless of > whether that mailbox/queue is downloaded/retrieved with UUCP, POP3, > IMAP4, or some other protocol. By this definition, DJB is right, and the SMTP server that the original sender contacts to send the mail is a "recipient system". I don't buy this definition. I think the problem here is that you think your customer is the person who will own the mail server, while I'm thinking the customer is the person for whom the mail is being transported. > > The majority of that latency is an artifact of the FS technology, > > not an artifact of the disk technology, except as it impacts the > > ability of the FS technology to be implemented without stall > > barriers (e.g. IDE write data transfers not permitting disconnect > > ruin your whole day). > > Again, I'd like to know where you get this magic filesystem > technology that solves all disk I/O performance issues and makes them > as fast as a RAM disk, while also being 100% perfectly safe. At one point Matt Dillon was working on a system that did replication into RAM on multiple knodes, and defined that as "stable storage", since a system failure or two would not damage the ability to take responsibility for final delivery; that's one potential implementation. But the easiest implementation is to use an inode FS. [ ... ] > Correct. But with only ~1.3 recipients per message (on average), > there isn't much duplication to be had anyway. The whole replication > issue is a different matter. OK, that's a 25% reduction in the metadata overhead required, which is what you claim is the bottleneck. That doesn't look insignificant to me. > No, I don't panic "...at the idea of throwing it into the user > mailbox...". I have defined queueing & buffering mechanisms that > function system-wide, which help me resist problems with even > large-scale DOS attacks, and help ensure that all the rest of my > customers continue to receive service even if a single user has an > overflowing mailbox. My argument would be that this should be handled out-of-band via a feedback mechanism, rather than in-band via an EQUOTA, using the quota as a ffeedback mechanism. IMO, quotas are useful in IMAP4 servers, where the tendency is to leave data on the server. But the value in the quota applies only to *old* mail, not to unread mail, or newly arrived mail. > But it's easier to solve this problem at the system-wide level > where I can allocate relatively large buffers, as opposed to > inflicting it on the end user and letting them try to deal with it > across their slow dial-up line (or whatever). You're going to do that to the user anyway. Worse, you are going to give them a mailbox full of DOS crap, and drop good messages in the toilet (you've taken responsibility for the delivery, so the sender may not even have them any more, so when you drop them after the 4 days, they are screwed; you are especially screwed if the things you are dropping are DSN's from someone *just like you*). > Bait not taken. The customer is paying me to implement quotas. > This is a basic requirement. This is likely the source of the disconnect. I view the person whose mail I'm taking responsibility for, as the customer. > Moreover, even if it wasn't a basic requirement, I'd go back to > the customer and make sure that they understood that they're placing > the entire mail system for all thousands of users at risk if there is > a single mail loop or a large DOS attack on a single user, where I > have better tools to constrain these issues at a system-wide level. But you don't. You are relying on the feedback from an EQUOTA. Worse, the tools you are using don't turn a quota overage into an protocol level refusal, e.g. "451 recipient over quota", on attempts to send the user messages. Actually, that error would be incredibly telling: by returning it to the remote system, you are blaming the user for being over quota, when it's probably not the user who's at fault. Instead, what happens is the messages pile up in your queue. > If they still said that they didn't want quotas, then I'd let > someone else build the system for them -- I wouldn't want my name on > it. You wouldn't implement an out-of-band mechanism instead? You'd insist on the in-band mechanism of a MDA error, after you've already accepted responsibility for the message you aren't going to be able to deliver? > I don't drop the stuff in /dev/null. I just put some limits on > things so that I've got brakes that will automatically kick in and > start slowing the train down if there is an excessive overspeed > problem for an excessive period of time. You *will* drop stuff in /dev/null. Any queue entries you remove are dropped in /dev/null. You've accepted responsibility for the delivery. In some cases, you'll be able to generate a bounce message, but not for DSN's. Basically, if you are talking to someone who implements as you do, then information gets lost. [ ... ] > Well, we're not talking about FreeBSD. I wish we were. However, Probably ought to take the discussion off this mailing list, then. ;^). > I can assure you that UFS+Logging definitely has synchronous > meta-data update issues -- making them ordered or putting them into a > commit log and doing them in larger chunks does not eliminate them. Matt Dillon was working on this problem at one point in time; he defined "committed to stable storage" as "replicated in RAM on some number of hosts with fault tolerant features". Even if you lost one, you didn't lose the data. That's one approach. My recommendation would be to use an inode FS as a variable granularity block store, and use that for storing messages. > However, there's nothing I can do about synchronous meta-data > issues with the network & filesystem implementation of the NFS > server, and any related problems with the NFS client. Not if you constrain yourself to NFS, there isn't, I agree. [ ... ] > > Maildir is a kludge aound NFS locking. Nothing more, and nothing > > less. > > Yup. And I'm convinced that it introduces more problems than it > solves. But I still don't have much choice. If you're convinced, then you should be doing something else. 8-(. > > MS Exchange does, and so does Lotus Notes. I know they suck, but > > they are examples. > > They're not IMAP servers. They are proprietary LAN e-mail > systems that may happen to have an interface to this alien IMAP > protocol. They both have "IMAP connectors", actually. > > Who's using mmap?!? > > Cyrus. All those databases it keeps to help inform it what the > status is of the various messages, etc... are using mmap to access > the information inside the database files. Or are you not familiar > with the method of operation of tools like Berkeley DB? This is an artifact of using the new Sleepycat code. You can actually compile it to use the older code, which can be made to not use mmap. [ ... I, too, have fond/nightmarish memories of MMDF ... ] > SIMS and Netscape/iPlanet mail server are dead-end products. > Scott McNealy was very unpleasantly surprised when the Sun Europe > guys sprung SIMS on him, and it is definitely going the way of the > dodo. Note that Sun is a major investor in Sendmail, Inc. and they > have on their payroll one of the key members of the Sendmail > Consortium. I like sendmail, and I like their people. In general, though, I would say that they are still looking for their commercial market, so this is less impressive to me than it would be otherwise. > > 40 seconds to transfer on a Gigabit ethernet... assuming you can get > > it of the disks. 8-). Do you really expect them all simultaneously? > > Not a one of these machines has GigaBit Ethernet. They all have > 100Base-TX FastEthernet, and the front-end machines may also have a > second 100Base-TX FastEthernet interface (if I can scrounge a couple > of NICs). That's all to the good: by pushing it from 40 seconds to ~8 minutes, you favor my argument that the operation is network bound. > The big problem is that most of the users will also have > 100Base-TX FastEthernet. It won't take too many of them trying to > access the server at once to completely swamp it. That's a server stack implementation issue, if it's an issue for you. There are boxes you can buy or build to perform QoS that will deal with that issue. > > You don't need to assert a lock over NFS, if the only machine doing > > the reading is the one doing the writing, and it asserts the lock > > locally (this was more talking about the Cyrus cache files, not > > maildir). > > This assumes that there is only one machine ever writing to a > particular mailbox. This is not a valid assumption. Yes, it is. If you read previous postings, I suggested that the bastion SMTP server would forward the messages to the IMAP server that will in the future serve them, in order to permit local delivery. It doesn't solve the replication issue, but it solves your locking issue. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 18: 0: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7972037B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B24143F75 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:59:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1F1xitT024533; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:59:44 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4D7702.8EE51F54@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> <3E4D7702.8EE51F54@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:55:54 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:08 PM -0800 2003/02/14, Terry Lambert wrote: > I've got to say that on any mail server I've ever worked on, the > limitation on what it could handle was *never* disk I/O, unless > it was before trivial tuning had been done. It was always network > I/O, bus bandwidth, or CPU. I have yet to see a mail system that had limitations in any of these areas, and other than the ones you've seen, I have yet to hear of one such a mail system that any other mail systems expert has ever seen that I have talked to -- including the AOL mail system. > As far as I'm concerned, for most applications, "disks are fast > enough"; even an IDE disk doing thermal recalibration can keep > up with full frame rate digitized video for simultaneous record > and playback. 5 of those, and you're at the limit of 100Mbit > ethernet in and out, and you need 5 for RAID. If all you ever care about is bandwidth and not latency, and you really do get the bandwidth numbers claimed by the manufacturer as opposed to the ones that we tend to see in the real world, I might possibly believe this. Of course, I have yet to hear of a theoretical application where this would be the case, but I am willing to concede the point that such a thing might perhaps exist. > FWIW, since you really don't give a damn about timestamps on the > queue files in question, etc., you can relax POSIX guarantees on > certain metadata updates that were put there to make the DEC VMS > engineers happy by slowing down UNIX, relative to VMS, so they > would not file lawsuit from POSIX being required for gvernment > contracts. In what way don't you care about timestamps? And which timestamps don't we care about? Are you talking about noatime, or something else? Note that noatime doesn't exist for NFS mounts, at least it's not one I have been able to specify on our systems. > Because those are not magically a consequence of increased complexity. > Complexity can be managed. At what cost? > And they are back to transmitting 1 copy each, If they're putting the recipient name into the body of the e-mail message, then they're doing that anyway. Since they don't care about whether any of their spam is lost, they can run from memory-based filesystems. They can generate orders of magnitude more traffic than you could handle on the same hardware, simply because they don't have to worry what happens if the system crashes. Moreover, they can use open relays and high-volume spam-sending networks to further increase their amplitude. > Only if the messages came in on seperate sessions, and they are back > to transmitting 1 copy each, and they lose their amplification effect > in any attack. See above. Using SIS hurts you far more than it could possibly hurt them. >> So, you're right back where you started, and yet you've paid such >> a very high price. > > It's a price you have to pay anyway. No, you don't. > You mean "simply because we, the provider, failed to protect them > from a DOS". On user's DOS is another user's normal level of e-mail. It's impossible to protect them from DOS at that level, because you cannot possibly know, a priori, what is a DOS for which person. At higher levels, you can detect a DOS and at least delay it by having circuit breakers, such as quotas. > OK, that's a 25% reduction in the metadata overhead required, > which is what you claim is the bottleneck. That doesn't look > insignificant to me. Read the slides again. It doesn't reduce the meta-data overhead at all, only the data bandwidth required. Using ln to create a hard link to another file requires just as much synchronous meta-data overhead as it does to create the file in the first place -- the only difference is that you didn't have to also store another copy of the file contents. However, as we said before, storing a copy of the file contents is cheap -- what kills us is the synchronous meta-data overhead. > My argument would be that this should be handled out-of-band > via a feedback mechanism, rather than in-band via an EQUOTA, > using the quota as a ffeedback mechanism. What kind of out-of-band mechanism did you have in mind? Are we re-inventing the entirety of Internet e-mail yet once again? > You're going to do that to the user anyway. Worse, you are going > to give them a mailbox full of DOS crap, and drop good messages > in the toilet (you've taken responsibility for the delivery, so > the sender may not even have them any more, so when you drop them > after the 4 days, they are screwed; As soon as the user notices the overflowing mailbox, they can call the helpdesk and the people on the helpdesk have tools available to them to do mass cleanup, and avoid the problem for the user to deal with this problem. That gives them seven days to notice the problem and fix it, before things might start bouncing. We will likewise have daily monitoring processes that will set off alarms if a mailbox overflows, so that we can go take a look at it immediately. >> Bait not taken. The customer is paying me to implement quotas. >> This is a basic requirement. > > This is likely the source of the disconnect. I view the person > whose mail I'm taking responsibility for, as the customer. The users don't pay my salary. The customer does. I do everything I can to help the users in every way possible, but when it comes down to a choice of whether to do A or B, the customer decides -- not the users. > You wouldn't implement an out-of-band mechanism instead? Not at the price of re-inventing the entirety of Internet e-mail, no. > You'd > insist on the in-band mechanism of a MDA error, after you've > already accepted responsibility for the message you aren't going > to be able to deliver? The message was accepted and delivered to stable storage, and we would have done the best we could possibly do to actually deliver it to the user's mailbox. However, that's a gateway function -- the users mailbox doesn't speak SMTP, and therefore we would have fulfilled all of our required duties, to the best of our ability. No one has any right to expect any better. > You *will* drop stuff in /dev/null. Any queue entries you remove > are dropped in /dev/null. They're not removed or dropped in /dev/null. I don't know where you pulled that out of your hat, but on our real-world mail systems we would generate a bounce message. > My recommendation would be to use an inode FS as a variable > granularity block store, and use that for storing messages. It must be nice to be in a place where you can afford the luxury of contemplating completely re-writing the filesystem code, or even the entire OS. > Not if you constrain yourself to NFS, there isn't, I agree. Not my decision. I wasn't given a choice. > If you're convinced, then you should be doing something else. 8-(. I wish I could be. Not my decision. I wasn't given a choice. > This is an artifact of using the new Sleepycat code. You can > actually compile it to use the older code, which can be made to > not use mmap. As of what version is this still possible? How far back do you have to go? And are you sure that Cyrus would still work with that? Certainly, when it comes to SAMS, all this stuff is pre-compiled and you don't get the option of building Berkeley DB in a different manner, etc.... > I like sendmail, and I like their people. In general, though, I > would say that they are still looking for their commercial market, > so this is less impressive to me than it would be otherwise. They're going after the large ISP/ASP and the large corporate/Enterprise markets. However, their marketing & public relations could use some improvement. > That's all to the good: by pushing it from 40 seconds to ~8 minutes, > you favor my argument that the operation is network bound. Indirectly, perhaps. The real limitations is in the NFS implementation on the server, including how it handles synchronous meta-data updates. A major secondary factor is the client NFS implementation. > Yes, it is. If you read previous postings, I suggested that the > bastion SMTP server would forward the messages to the IMAP server > that will in the future serve them, in order to permit local > delivery. There will be a designated primary server for a give mailbox, but any of the other back-end servers could potentially also receive a request for delivery or access to the same mailbox. Our hope is that 99% of all requests will go through the designated primary (for obvious performance reasons), but we cannot currently design the system so that *only* the designated back-end server is allowed to serve that particular mailbox. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 18: 4:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCAF37B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f36.sea2.hotmail.com [207.68.165.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A79E43FAF for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:04:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from puralifecr@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:04:38 -0800 Received: from 196.40.75.43 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:04:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [196.40.75.43] From: "pura life CR" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: 2 Misc questions Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:04:38 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2003 02:04:38.0261 (UTC) FILETIME=[98261250:01C2D496] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I have a couple of question that dont allow me to sleep properly. here we go: 1. is this suid root code exploitable with a buffer overflow technique: /* foo.c */ main(int argc, char *argv[]){ ... setuid(0) ... if ( ((strcmp(argv[i],"foo")) == 0) || ((strcmp(argv[i],"bar")) == 0) ) .... } 2. how can I redirect stderr to /dev/null? for example when I am 'finding' a file in the whole dir tree I dont want to look at the "permised denied" warning. ej: find / -name "foo" -print > /dev/null & <--- how to redict stderr that's all for now.... _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 18:42:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35CD337B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E68043F85 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:42:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0018.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.18] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jsHt-0003YP-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:42:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4DA8CD.48E77D9F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:41:17 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pura life CR Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2 Misc questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e8c826bda829e33cbf9cbc5f063886462601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pura life CR wrote: > 1. is this suid root code exploitable with a buffer overflow technique: > /* foo.c */ > main(int argc, char *argv[]){ > ... > setuid(0) > ... > if ( ((strcmp(argv[i],"foo")) == 0) > || ((strcmp(argv[i],"bar")) == 0) ) > .... > } I depends on what's in the second "..." or "....". 8-) 8-). The strcmp's along are not explotable, since both compares stop at the 4th byte in. > 2. how can I redirect stderr to /dev/null? for example when I am 'finding' a > file in the whole dir tree I dont want to look at the "permised denied" > warning. > ej: find / -name "foo" -print > /dev/null & <--- how to redict stderr > > that's all for now.... Depends on the shell. For /bin/sh, for example, it's: find / -name "foo" -print > /dev/null 2>&1 & See the man page for the shell you are using for information specific to that shell. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 18:54:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1E237B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF46443FA3 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1F2sbbL003843; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1F2sboX003842; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:54:37 -0800 From: David Schultz To: pura life CR Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2 Misc questions Message-ID: <20030215025437.GA3750@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: pura life CR , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake pura life CR : > Hi, I have a couple of question that dont allow me to sleep properly. > here we go: > 1. is this suid root code exploitable with a buffer overflow technique: > /* foo.c */ > main(int argc, char *argv[]){ > ... > setuid(0) > ... > if ( ((strcmp(argv[i],"foo")) == 0) > || ((strcmp(argv[i],"bar")) == 0) ) > .... > } No, but write another few thousand lines and we'll see... > 2. how can I redirect stderr to /dev/null? for example when I am 'finding' > a file in the whole dir tree I dont want to look at the "permised denied" > warning. > ej: find / -name "foo" -print > /dev/null & <--- how to redict stderr In the C shell, you can't do it in a direct way. You have to say: ( my-command > /dev/tty ) >& /dev/null In the Bourne shell, you just say: my-command 2>/dev/null To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 19:38:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0810637B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3E643F85 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:38:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0018.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.18] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jt9k-00019d-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:38:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4DB5DE.D3EA1FE4@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 19:37:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> <3E4D7702.8EE51F54@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a416adc66cb4be5e02154b1b847cf5e6d4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:08 PM -0800 2003/02/14, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I've got to say that on any mail server I've ever worked on, the > > limitation on what it could handle was *never* disk I/O, unless > > it was before trivial tuning had been done. It was always network > > I/O, bus bandwidth, or CPU. > > I have yet to see a mail system that had limitations in any of > these areas, and other than the ones you've seen, I have yet to hear > of one such a mail system that any other mail systems expert has ever > seen that I have talked to -- including the AOL mail system. I like to build systems that are inherently scalable, so that you can just throw more resources at them. That means I'm usually more concerned with breaking the ties between where the data resides and where it gets read/written from. For the 1 machine per every 50,000 domain units case we dealt with, the machines in question were 2x166MHz PPC 604's. I guess if the machines were 3 GHz P4's or something, then my perspective might be different... though probably not much, since such systems would not have had a crossbar bus, and there are stalls that happen from CPU clock multipliers which I did not have to deal with. The pipes in and out have always been on the order of T1 to T3, as well, with an assumption of 50% bandwidth in, and 50% bandwidth out. In no case was I interested in the leaf node server, unless it was on the other end of a (comparatively) low bandwidth link. The only thing that concerned me about the disk was pool retention time for time-in-queue for the main queue depth. I was only concerned about that for iteration, not lookup: for lookup, the system in question had a btree structured directory implementation, so lookups were always O(log2(N)+1). Even then, since the data was being moved to per domain queues, the main mail queue never ended up getting very deep, even when the server was saturated at 100Mbit, which was "worst case" (if the queue had started growing and continued growing at that point, I would have had to throttle input rate to avoid a queue livelock state, and ensure the drain rate was >= the fill rate). The FS's were AIX JFS, striped, on 6 10,000 RPM SCSI spindles. I can imagine there being problems with UFS in a similar circumstance, unless you carefully designed your usage semantics to ensure that you would not introduce stalls through your choice of FS. Even so, however, I think that it's possible to implement in such a way as to avoid the stalls. But my problems were *always* network saturation before hitting any other limit (even CPU). > > As far as I'm concerned, for most applications, "disks are fast > > enough"; even an IDE disk doing thermal recalibration can keep > > up with full frame rate digitized video for simultaneous record > > and playback. 5 of those, and you're at the limit of 100Mbit > > ethernet in and out, and you need 5 for RAID. > > If all you ever care about is bandwidth and not latency, and you > really do get the bandwidth numbers claimed by the manufacturer as > opposed to the ones that we tend to see in the real world, I might > possibly believe this. Of course, I have yet to hear of a > theoretical application where this would be the case, but I am > willing to concede the point that such a thing might perhaps exist. 8-). > > FWIW, since you really don't give a damn about timestamps on the > > queue files in question, etc., you can relax POSIX guarantees on > > certain metadata updates that were put there to make the DEC VMS > > engineers happy by slowing down UNIX, relative to VMS, so they > > would not file lawsuit from POSIX being required for gvernment > > contracts. > > In what way don't you care about timestamps? And which > timestamps don't we care about? Are you talking about noatime, or > something else? Note that noatime doesn't exist for NFS mounts, at > least it's not one I have been able to specify on our systems. You have to specify it on the NFS server system, or you specify it on the NFS client system, so the transactions are not attempted, if you care about the request going over the wire and being ignored, rather than just being ignored. Since the issue you are personally fighting is write latency for requests you should probably not be making (8-)), you ought to work hard on this. If your NFS client systems are FreeBSD, then it's a fairly minor hack to add the option the the NFS client code. If your NFS server is FreeBSD, then turning it off on the exported mount is probably sufficient. If neither is FreeBSD... well, can you switch to FreeBSD? > > Because those are not magically a consequence of increased complexity. > > Complexity can be managed. > > At what cost? Engineering. > > And they are back to transmitting 1 copy each, > > If they're putting the recipient name into the body of the e-mail > message, then they're doing that anyway. Since they don't care about > whether any of their spam is lost, they can run from memory-based > filesystems. They can generate orders of magnitude more traffic than > you could handle on the same hardware, simply because they don't have > to worry what happens if the system crashes. Moreover, they can use > open relays and high-volume spam-sending networks to further increase > their amplitude. The point is not what they can do, it's what you can do. You;ve already admitted a 1.3x multiple recipient rate. > > Only if the messages came in on seperate sessions, and they are back > > to transmitting 1 copy each, and they lose their amplification effect > > in any attack. > > See above. Using SIS hurts you far more than it could possibly hurt them. It's not intended to "hurt them". It's only intended to deal with mutiple recipients for a single message. SPAM is almost the only type of mail that's externally generated that gets multiple recipient targets. The point is not to "hurt" them (if you wanted that, you would run RBL or ORBS or SPEWS or ... and not accept connections from their servers in the first place), but to mitigate their effect on your storage costs. Note that this is the same philosophy you've been espousing all along, with quotas: you don't care if it causes a problem for your users, only if it causes a problem for you. Internally, you have a higher connectedness between users, so you get much larger than your 1.3 multiplier, and for email lists, it's higher still. In fact, I would go so far as to say that DJB's idea of sending a reference is applicable to email list messages, only the messages would be stored on the list server, instead of on the sender machine. In fact, there are MIME types for this, and it would be really useful for any list which intends to archive its content anyway. 8-). > >> So, you're right back where you started, and yet you've paid such > >> a very high price. > > > > It's a price you have to pay anyway. > > No, you don't. At the point that you no longer care which machine you send a user connection to to retrieve their mail, then you no longer care where you send the mail, or if the mail is single instance multiple time, a real replica, or a virtual replica (SIS). It takes a small amount of additional work. > > You mean "simply because we, the provider, failed to protect them > > from a DOS". > > On user's DOS is another user's normal level of e-mail. It's > impossible to protect them from DOS at that level, because you cannot > possibly know, a priori, what is a DOS for which person. At higher > levels, you can detect a DOS and at least delay it by having circuit > breakers, such as quotas. The repeated mailing ("mail bombing") that started this thread is, or should be, simple to detect. Yes, it's a trivial case, but it's the most common case. You don't have to go to a compute-intensive technique to deal with it. > > OK, that's a 25% reduction in the metadata overhead required, > > which is what you claim is the bottleneck. That doesn't look > > insignificant to me. > > Read the slides again. It doesn't reduce the meta-data overhead > at all, only the data bandwidth required. Using ln to create a hard > link to another file requires just as much synchronous meta-data > overhead as it does to create the file in the first place -- the only > difference is that you didn't have to also store another copy of the > file contents. You are storing the reference wrong. Use an encapsulated reference, not a hard link. That will permit the metadata operations to occur simultaneously, instead of constraining them to occur serially, like a link does. In many of the systems I've seen, where the domain name is used as an index into a hashed directory structure, you would not be able to hard link in any case, since the link targets would be on different physical FS's. > However, as we said before, storing a copy of the file contents > is cheap -- what kills us is the synchronous meta-data overhead. You keep saying this, and then you keep arranging the situation (order of operations, FS backing store, networ transport protocol, etc.) so that it's true, instead of trying to arrange them so it isn't. > > My argument would be that this should be handled out-of-band > > via a feedback mechanism, rather than in-band via an EQUOTA, > > using the quota as a ffeedback mechanism. > > What kind of out-of-band mechanism did you have in mind? Are we > re-inventing the entirety of Internet e-mail yet once again? No, we are not. The transport protocols are the transport protocols, and you are constrained to implement to the transport protocols, no matter what else you do. But you are not constrained to depend on rename-based two phase commits (for example), if your FS or data store exports a transaction interface for use by applications: you can use that transaction interface instead. > > You're going to do that to the user anyway. Worse, you are going > > to give them a mailbox full of DOS crap, and drop good messages > > in the toilet (you've taken responsibility for the delivery, so > > the sender may not even have them any more, so when you drop them > > after the 4 days, they are screwed; > > As soon as the user notices the overflowing mailbox, they can > call the helpdesk and the people on the helpdesk have tools available > to them to do mass cleanup, and avoid the problem for the user to > deal with this problem. That gives them seven days to notice the > problem and fix it, before things might start bouncing. We will > likewise have daily monitoring processes that will set off alarms if > a mailbox overflows, so that we can go take a look at it immediately. So your queue return time is 7 days. I have to say, I've personally delt with "help desk" escalations for problems like this, and it's incredibly labor intensive. You should always design as if you were going to have to deal with 100,000 customers or more, so that you put yourself in a position that manual processes will not scale, and then think about the problem. > >> Bait not taken. The customer is paying me to implement quotas. > >> This is a basic requirement. > > > > This is likely the source of the disconnect. I view the person > > whose mail I'm taking responsibility for, as the customer. > > The users don't pay my salary. The customer does. I do > everything I can to help the users in every way possible, but when it > comes down to a choice of whether to do A or B, the customer decides > -- not the users. Which explains the general level of user satisfaction with this industry, according to a refcent survey, I think. 8-) 8-). > > You wouldn't implement an out-of-band mechanism instead? > > Not at the price of re-inventing the entirety of Internet e-mail, no. Something simple like recognizing repetitive size/sender/subject pairing on the SMTP transit server. > > You'd > > insist on the in-band mechanism of a MDA error, after you've > > already accepted responsibility for the message you aren't going > > to be able to deliver? > > The message was accepted and delivered to stable storage, and we > would have done the best we could possibly do to actually deliver it > to the user's mailbox. However, that's a gateway function -- the > users mailbox doesn't speak SMTP, and therefore we would have > fulfilled all of our required duties, to the best of our ability. No > one has any right to expect any better. Ugh. Would you, as a user, bet your comapny on that level of service? > > You *will* drop stuff in /dev/null. Any queue entries you remove > > are dropped in /dev/null. > > They're not removed or dropped in /dev/null. I don't know where > you pulled that out of your hat, but on our real-world mail systems > we would generate a bounce message. And send it to "<>", if it were a bounce for a DSN? > > My recommendation would be to use an inode FS as a variable > > granularity block store, and use that for storing messages. > > It must be nice to be in a place where you can afford the luxury > of contemplating completely re-writing the filesystem code, or even > the entire OS. You mean the FreeBSD-chat mailing list? 8-) 8-). That capability is one of the reasons people participate in the FreeBSD project. > Not my decision. I wasn't given a choice. [ ... ] > I wish I could be. Not my decision. I wasn't given a choice. So the cowboy tells his friend he'll be right back, and rides to town to talk to the doctor. The doctor is in the middle of a delicate surgery, but pauses long enough to tell the cowboy that he'll have to cut X's over the bite marks, and then suck the poison out. The cowboy rushes back to his friend and say "Bad news, Clem; Doc say's you're going to die!". 8-) 8-). > > This is an artifact of using the new Sleepycat code. You can > > actually compile it to use the older code, which can be made to > > not use mmap. > > As of what version is this still possible? How far back do you > have to go? And are you sure that Cyrus would still work with that? 2.8. It's not like OpenLDAP, which needs the transactioning interfaces, it's pretty straight-forward code. > Certainly, when it comes to SAMS, all this stuff is pre-compiled > and you don't get the option of building Berkeley DB in a different > manner, etc.... Yes, you end up having to compile things yourself. > > That's all to the good: by pushing it from 40 seconds to ~8 minutes, > > you favor my argument that the operation is network bound. > > Indirectly, perhaps. The real limitations is in the NFS > implementation on the server, including how it handles synchronous > meta-data updates. A major secondary factor is the client NFS > implementation. If you have control over the clients, you can avoid making update requests. If you have no control over either, well, "Bad news, Clem". > > Yes, it is. If you read previous postings, I suggested that the > > bastion SMTP server would forward the messages to the IMAP server > > that will in the future serve them, in order to permit local > > delivery. > > There will be a designated primary server for a give mailbox, but > any of the other back-end servers could potentially also receive a > request for delivery or access to the same mailbox. Our hope is that > 99% of all requests will go through the designated primary (for > obvious performance reasons), but we cannot currently design the > system so that *only* the designated back-end server is allowed to > serve that particular mailbox. Not unless you are willing to accept "hot fail over" as a strategy to use in place of replication. Though... you *could* allow any of the replicas to accept and queue on behalf of the primary, but then deliver only to the primary; presumably you'd be able to replace a primary in 7 days. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 20:39:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997FC37B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hotmail.com (f60.sea2.hotmail.com [207.68.165.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C11243F85 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:39:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from puralifecr@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:39:47 -0800 Received: from 200.9.59.10 by sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 04:39:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.9.59.10] From: "pura life CR" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Processes hiding techniques. Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:39:47 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2003 04:39:47.0829 (UTC) FILETIME=[45156A50:01C2D4AC] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I would like to know what are current processes hiding techniques that can be used in FreeBSD for an intruder. I would like to know this for learning how to deal with this situation when I become a FreeBSD admin. For example, an user wants to run a nmap or password cracking or a irc bot, what can he do to hide the process so the admin when perform a ps -ax is not able to look the process. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 21: 5:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7177337B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D857943F75 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:05:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mooneer@translator.cx) Received: from pool0034.cvx31-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.146.34] helo=morpheus) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18juVz-0001mv-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:05:27 -0800 From: "Mooneer Salem" To: "pura life CR" , Subject: RE: Processes hiding techniques. Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:05:24 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Processes are represented in the kernel as struct proc. Basically, a modified copy of ps(1) could be installed (assuming the intruder gains root) that would hide the process. It's also possible to load a kernel module that will hide the process. This page might help: http://www.pimmel.com/articles/bsdkern.html Thanks, -- Mooneer Salem GPLTrans: http://www.translator.cx/ lifeafterking.org: http://www.lifeafterking.org/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of pura life CR Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 8:40 PM To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Processes hiding techniques. Hi, I would like to know what are current processes hiding techniques that can be used in FreeBSD for an intruder. I would like to know this for learning how to deal with this situation when I become a FreeBSD admin. For example, an user wants to run a nmap or password cracking or a irc bot, what can he do to hide the process so the admin when perform a ps -ax is not able to look the process. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 21:44:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436F937B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA85443F75 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:44:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0246.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.246] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18jv7Z-0007Kd-00; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:44:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3E4DD348.626BA13E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:42:32 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pura life CR Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Processes hiding techniques. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4bd05f38053890badde6371c73cd2cbd5666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org pura life CR wrote: > Hi, I would like to know what are current processes hiding techniques that > can be used in FreeBSD for an intruder. I would like to know this for > learning how to deal with this situation when I become a FreeBSD admin. The same techniques for any UNIX system. > For example, an user wants to run a nmap or password cracking or a irc bot, > what can he do to hide the process so the admin when perform a ps -ax is not > able to look the process. Replace the "ps" program, is the obvious one. The easy fix for this is for the admin to mount the directory containing the binary as read-only. You'd have a hell of a time replacing it then; you might as well ask how to change the title on a magazine cover after it's printed. 8-). If the admin doesn't want to do that, they can use something like TrustedBSD. Cryptographic checksumming and binary signing will prevent all command replacement attacks not performed by an insider. Run their own copy of the OS, and run the copy that's supposed to be running under vmware. That's pretty easy to spot, too, both by sluggish performance, console differences, and the fact that your de0 ethernet interface just changed names on you. 8-) 8-). For all the kernel module techniques, where the reported information is inconsistant with the true state, an admin just needs to bump the securelevel to 1 or 2, and it stops the attacker cold, unless they have physical access to the machine. A smart admin will still notice signs that the process is running; if nothing else, they will notice a difference in system responsiveness, due to the increased load. In general, if you want to do this, you should buy your own computer. If you want more information, you should probably subscribe to "bugtraq", or read it online. Since the attacks used will change over time, this is not something you can learn once, and be done learning it. PS: What's the "pua" for? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 23:40:56 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857DF37B401 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from yahoo.co.kr (adsl-67-123-197-147.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.123.197.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 328D343F93 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from okbody1011@yahoo.co.kr) To: From: 성장호르몬 "Mega HGH" Subject: 노화역전 "성장호르몬" 혀밑에 뿌리는 스프레이 타잎. 100% 네츄럴 호르몬. Made in U.S.A - 미 FDA 승인제품!!! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 23:40:17 -0600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" X-Mailer: JBH Msender v 1.0 Message-Id: <20030215074046.328D343F93@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 성장 호르몬의 놀라운 효과를 경험 하세요!



 좋은 건 다 아는데 가격이 부담 되신다구요?
▶ 중간 유통을 거치지 않고 미국현지로 부터 직판됩니다. 아직도 보따리 장수나 피부방,수입상점등에서 고가를 주고 구입하십니까? 중국산 가짜는 아닐런지?
  .
▶ 메가 HGH는 최고밀도의 호르몬 함량(ml당 645ng)과 인체에 유해한 알콜을 전혀 사용하지 않는 100% 믿을 수 있는 네추럴 성장 호르몬 입니다.
   
▶

일부 부촌에서 고가로 시판되는 성장호르몬의 95%가 중국이나 동남아에서 제조된 가짜라는 방송보도 내용대로 구입 시 각별히 유의하셔야합니다.

구하기도 어려웠던 성장 호르몬 이제 거품없는 가격에 안심하고 주문하세요!
미국 현지에서 직접 EMS(국제 특급 우편 서비스)로 댁까지 4일만에 배송해 드립니다.

* 본 제품은 미국 FDA 승인 제품이며 FDA NDC(National Drug Code)# 65596-9302-1

MAID IN USA
   
 
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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 10: 2:47 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6307137B401 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B30643F85 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:02:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA25682 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:02:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <200302151802.NAA25682@dyson.jdyson.com> Subject: Just some comments about FreeBSDV5.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:02:43 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gang, I am purposefully posting to 'chat' to avoid getting very involved, however, I have some good news (and some minor bad news) about V5.0. Suggestions about reading release notes, etc need not apply -- because the principle of least astonishment (POLA) needs to apply no matter what. Good news: it is incredibly responsive. I have been impressed with it, and the improvements appear real. I am NOT easily impressed. Bad news: the filesystem stuff is a little unfriendly. firstly, it seems to 'modify' already existant FFS filesystems too much to maintain full compatibility with older systems. This is true even when passively doing a mount of older filesystems, and only reading (but not RO.) Also, I am using VINUM with debug mode off, and that has some source code errors for that mode. VINUM has also modified the on-disk structure too much for reverse compatibility (maybe related to other filesystem changes instead of VINUM.) There is *definitely* improvement in responsiveness over older versions of the system. There are also some problems of the code being 'green.' I have participated in worse releases, and 5.1 will probably be incredibly good. A better designed kernel restructuring would have been better, but otherwise, the results are very good. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 18: 3: 9 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D7A37B401 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6835343FA3 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:02:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1G22nHh017181; Sun, 16 Feb 2003 03:02:54 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E4DB5DE.D3EA1FE4@mindspring.com> References: <20030211032932.GA1253@papagena.rockefeller.edu> <3E498175.295FC389@mindspring.com> <3E49C2BC.F164F19A@mindspring.com> <3E4A81A3.A8626F3D@mindspring.com> <3E4B11BA.A060AEFD@mindspring.com> <3E4BC32A.713AB0C4@mindspring.com> <3E4CB9A5.645EC9C@mindspring.com> <3E4D7702.8EE51F54@mindspring.com> <3E4DB5DE.D3EA1FE4@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 03:02:52 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Email push and pull (was Re: matthew dillon) Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:37 PM -0800 2003/02/14, Terry Lambert wrote: > I like to build systems that are inherently scalable, so that you > can just throw more resources at them. The overall architecture that has been delivered should scale to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions of users. It's the same architecture I delivered at LISA 2000. The one thing that probably won't scale is the NFS server. But that's not something I can change. > You have to specify it on the NFS server system, Do you know how to do that with NetApp filers? > or you specify it > on the NFS client system, so the transactions are not attempted, Already tried that. However, mount_nfs complained that "noatime" was not a recognized option. > if > you care about the request going over the wire and being ignored, > rather than just being ignored. Since the issue you are personally > fighting is write latency for requests you should probably not be > making (8-)), you ought to work hard on this. I agree that expensive operations should be avoided if at all possible, but re-writing the entire OS, the entire NFS server code, filesystem code, or other significant components of the system is not an option. We have to deliver in a matter of just a very few weeks -- we can't afford to take five years to make this happen. > If your NFS client systems are FreeBSD, then it's a fairly minor > hack to add the option the the NFS client code. If your NFS server > is FreeBSD, then turning it off on the exported mount is probably > sufficient. > > If neither is FreeBSD... well, can you switch to FreeBSD? Regretfully not. Moreover, even if we could, it would only be on the client. That only solves part of the problem, and perhaps not the biggest part. > Engineering. How much? How many person-decades? > It's not intended to "hurt them". It's only intended to deal with > mutiple recipients for a single message. SPAM is almost the only > type of mail that's externally generated that gets multiple recipient > targets. We get almost no spam. We do get some, and some people have complained. The company took an internal survey and only something like 10% of the respondents felt that the company should spend any money to try to curb this problem, and most of the respondents felt that they'd be perfectly happy using client-side features to solve this issue. > The point is not to "hurt" them (if you wanted that, you > would run RBL or ORBS or SPEWS or ... and not accept connections from > their servers in the first place), but to mitigate their effect on > your storage costs. Spam doesn't come in 44MB messages. The amount of disk storage required for spam is almost nothing. My primary disk space problem is friggin' morons in marketing or product research that seem to feel that they have a God-given right to send the entire contents of their hard drives via e-mail, or people illegally sending entire video movies or illegal mp3s via e-mail. The worst thing of all is when these idiots send this kind of crap to someone and they are ignorant of where that person is located. Many of the remote offices are behind very slow links (ISDN or 56k), and have ancient mail/everything else servers that have very, very little disk space for /var/spool/mqueue or /var/spool/mail. When some bloody VP in the US insists on sending an 50MB e-mail message on a daily basis to a guy in Asia (which is served through the European hub, which we run), and the mail server the guy in Asia doesn't even have 50MB free in /var/spool/mqueue on a good day, that is a much, much bigger headache. Trust me, disk space problems due to spam are the least of my worries. > Note that this is the same philosophy you've been > espousing all along, with quotas: you don't care if it causes a problem > for your users, only if it causes a problem for you. No, I do care. However, I have to be practical. Moreover, if management has taken an internal survey on a subject and almost none of the respondents support the idea of actually spending money to try to solve the problem, then I can't really take this as a mandate to go convince management that they have to delay the project (and other projects depending on ours freeing up resources that they need). > Internally, you have a higher connectedness between users, so you > get much larger than your 1.3 multiplier, and for email lists, it's > higher still. They don't really have any mailing lists. I installed the majordomo server a few months ago, and there has been relatively little use of it. Part of that is because the current mail system is so screwed up that it can only be used for one-way announcements, but even after our replacement is online, I don't expect them to make all that much use of mailing lists. > In fact, I would go so far as to say that DJB's idea > of sending a reference is applicable to email list messages, only > the messages would be stored on the list server, instead of on the > sender machine. In essence, they do this already, and have been doing it for quite some time. They have a very healthy community of internal USENET news participants, and a very broad array of internal news groups that they have set up. So, we don't need to re-invent the entirety of Internet e-mail for them. > At the point that you no longer care which machine you send a user > connection to to retrieve their mail, then you no longer care where > you send the mail, No, that's precisely the problem. I *do* care where I send them to get their mail, or where their mail is sent. But what I want to do is to hide from them where this location is, because they *don't* care (or shouldn't have to). > or if the mail is single instance multiple > time, a real replica, or a virtual replica (SIS). It takes a small > amount of additional work. I think the BS meter just broke. Sorry, guy. Re-writing the entire mail system just to implement SIS seems like the dumbest possible idea. Until you've done this for UW-IMAP, Courier-IMAP, or Cyrus, and you're willing to release that code back to the public, I don't think you've got a leg to stand on. > The repeated mailing ("mail bombing") that started this thread is, > or should be, simple to detect. Could be. How would you do it? Statistical techniques to discern how often a particular account normally receives mail based on the last five minutes, the last hour, day, or comparing today against a similar time period from yesterday, or last week, or last month? The cfengine technique does have a lot going for it, but for a person who normally receives a lot of e-mail, there'd be a good chance that it wouldn't detect a "mail bombing" of this sort. You'd have to go into scanning the content of the message for that -- too many messages in a given period of time that have essentially the same body content, or whatever. But what period of time? > Yes, it's a trivial case, but it's the most common case. You don't > have to go to a compute-intensive technique to deal with it. Once you start looking at the message body content, you've already started down a slippery slope. You've told the user that you will guarantee that they don't ever get mail-bombed, but as the incoming messages are more and more diverse, at what point do you decide that they really are different? What can you say to the user when you've accidentally thrown away a legitimate mail message because it seemed to be too similar to a previous one that they had received? > You are storing the reference wrong. Use an encapsulated reference, > not a hard link. Give me the file system to do that. Then port it to Solaris and NetApp filer. > That will permit the metadata operations to occur > simultaneously, instead of constraining them to occur serially, like > a link does. Hell, if it can do all this kind of magic, just give it to me for FreeBSD. Who needs softupdates, or dirprefs, or dirhash, or any of that other crap, when you've got TerrysMagicFS? > You keep saying this, and then you keep arranging the situation > (order of operations, FS backing store, networ transport protocol, > etc.) so that it's true, instead of trying to arrange them so it > isn't. No, the system is what it is. There are certain things that cannot be changed. One of them is the NetApp filers for NFS. Another is Solaris/SPARC. Another is that they absolutely, positively, do not want *ANY* source code changes made whatsoever to any of the programs or packages they are using. They're already looking funny at me for specifying that we should be using sendmail from sendmail.org as opposed to the vendor-supplied sendmail which we actually commit the mortal sin of compiling ourselves, or for actually going in and making source-code level changes to procmail (which are required if you want to use Maildir format mailboxes, or a hashed mailbox structure). I am honestly looking for advice on how I can make this work as well as I can, and you keep telling me that the only way to do anything at all is to completely rewrite the entire OS of both the client and the server. Granted, I shouldn't be looking for help on non-FreeBSD systems on a FreeBSD mailing list, but what you're giving me is not very helpful. If you want to tell me that I'm screwed and I shouldn't even bother, that's fine. But don't waste my time and yours by continuing to harangue me and stress how vitally important it is for me to completely re-invent all the protocols being used, completely re-write all the OSes and filesystems being used, etc.... > No, we are not. The transport protocols are the transport protocols, > and you are constrained to implement to the transport protocols, no > matter what else you do. But you are not constrained to depend on > rename-based two phase commits (for example), if your FS or data > store exports a transaction interface for use by applications: you > can use that transaction interface instead. At the ivory tower level, I'm sure that statement makes sense. But don't tell me to eat cake when there isn't even any bread around. > I have to say, I've personally delt with "help desk" escalations > for problems like this, and it's incredibly labor intensive. You > should always design as if you were going to have to deal with > 100,000 customers or more, so that you put yourself in a position > that manual processes will not scale, and then think about the > problem. They've got 6000 employees world-wide, and are already the worlds-largest company in their niche. They were spun off years ago by Philips, because they felt that this wasn't a core part of their business. I don't think they're ever going to get particularly large. And if they do, the architecture will scale, even if the implementation won't. On the other hand, I don't have to run or pay for the help desk operation, and when it comes to quotas, not implementing SIS, not re-writing the entire filesystem or OS for both the clients and the server, etc..., well those aren't things that my customer has paid me to do. They have set out some pretty specific guidelines as to what they want, and I have tried to give them the best possible architecture and best possible implementation that I can, within those guidelines. > Something simple like recognizing repetitive size/sender/subject > pairing on the SMTP transit server. And you would do that how? And you would make use of that information how? > Ugh. Would you, as a user, bet your comapny on that level of service? Sure. I've always tried to provide the same level of service that I would want for myself, and I can be a very demanding customer. Indeed, I am in the process of setting up my own consulting company, and I will have a co-lo, where I run my own mail server. I won't be going quite as far out for myself as I have for them, because my own personal needs aren't quite so large. But I cannot strive to provide myself any better level of service than I have done for them. > 2.8. It's not like OpenLDAP, which needs the transactioning interfaces, > it's pretty straight-forward code. From the cyrus-2.0.14 distribution, doc/install-prerequisites.html: * Berkeley DB, version 3.0.55 or higher. Berkeley DB can be obtained from Sleepycat. It is strongly recommended that libsasl be compiled with Berkeley DB support, using the same version of Berkeley DB. (If you have a Berkeley DB version mismatch, somewhat perplexing crashes result.) From the cyrus-2.0.14 distribution, README: The 2.0 release contains many new features over 1.6. No further development work will progress on 1.6 so we encourage you to work with the Cyrus 2.0 code wherever possible. Support for 1.6 will also be extremely limited. Sorry, guy. Not an option. >> Certainly, when it comes to SAMS, all this stuff is pre-compiled >> and you don't get the option of building Berkeley DB in a different >> manner, etc.... > > Yes, you end up having to compile things yourself. With SAMS, you don't get that option. That's about the only negative thing that I can say about it. > If you have control over the clients, you can avoid making update > requests. If you have no control over either, well, "Bad news, Clem". I have no control over the clients. > Though... you *could* allow any of the replicas to accept and queue > on behalf of the primary, but then deliver only to the primary; > presumably you'd be able to replace a primary in 7 days. Doesn't help. The front-end servers will accept and queue on behalf of the users. I don't need yet another level of queueing on the back-end servers as well. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 18:51:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B0B137B401 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E041643F93 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b141.otenet.gr [212.205.244.149]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1G2paSe008024; Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:51:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h1G2paBC087428; Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:51:36 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) id h1G2pXn4087377; Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:51:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:51:33 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just some comments about FreeBSDV5.0 Message-ID: <20030216025133.GF2053@gothmog.gr> References: <200302151802.NAA25682@dyson.jdyson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200302151802.NAA25682@dyson.jdyson.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-02-15 13:02, "John S. Dyson" wrote: > Gang, > I am purposefully posting to 'chat' to avoid getting very > involved, however, I have some good news (and some minor > bad news) about V5.0. Suggestions about reading release > notes, etc need not apply -- because the principle of > least astonishment (POLA) needs to apply no matter what. > > Good news: it is incredibly responsive. I have been > impressed with it, and the improvements > appear real. I am NOT easily impressed. This is one of the reasons that I kept trying to work on current for doing real work during the last year. Since late 2001, the 5.X kernels left a general "feel" of better responsiveness to every day programs, like editors or network clients running on the console :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message