From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 6:39:42 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5A337B401; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B057B43F93; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:39:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0C243B14; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09256AF1; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:39:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:39:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: John Baldwin Cc: Terry Lambert , , Damien Tougas Subject: Re: A question about kernel modules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030310063646.Q30184-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Mar 2003, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 07-Mar-2003 Terry Lambert wrote: > > The GENERIC kernel is loaded from a CDROM controller BIOS faked-up > > floppy drive, which is how CDROMs are able to boot. Even if all > > other issues were resolved, this floppy image would be unable to > > contain all the necessary modules. For the modules to be read off > > the CDROM or other boot media, all the code in the module loading > > path would have to be statically present (ISO9660 FS, ATA and SCSI > > drivers, CDROM driver, etc., etc.). By including all the drivers > > in the GENERIC kernel, it makes it much more likely that you will > > b able to actually install FreeBSD in the first place. > > FreeBSD hasn't used the floppy-emulation mode of CD booting since > 4.6. See /usr/src/sys/boot/i386/cdboot/cdboot.s and an El Torito > standard for more details. That's odd. 4.7-R required me to tell my BIOS it had a 1.44MB FD installed (it has an LS-120 in reality) in order to boot from the CD. The 5.0-R CD boots fine without that bit of BIOS trickery (but it lacks drivers that 4-STABLE has, which I use (bktr for one)). Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 7:35:22 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F2137B404; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8406F43FBF; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:35:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.52.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.52] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18sPIi-0003lJ-00; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:34:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6CB047.5D517419@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:33:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: Damien Tougas , Andrew Boothman , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A question about kernel modules References: <200303080856.h288ubIg021994@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a427bda4a6d5514fe2fcd7cfa33c239190548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > > configuring my kernel. If there are good reasons why I should not use them > > > (or not use them in specific situations), I would be intersted in knowing > > > what those are. > > > > The dependency tracking sucks, and so does demand-loading. If > > you look at the module code with the idea of loading *at least > > one* ethernet driver before you could load IP, and having to > > load IP before you could load TCP, and then look at the code to > > see what this would take, you will be enlightened. > > That is not the way you would do it. Each Ethernet module would > require IP, which in turn would co-require TCP and co-require UDP > etc. If you tried to load IP with no ethernet driver, you'd get > the loopback device, and TCP/UDP etc. You've sort of got that backward, I think. I can have all sorts of protocols that *aren't* TCP that run on top of IP, and I can have all sorts of protocols that aren't IP that run over an ethernet interface. The ethernet interface might just be a promiscuous mode interface, with a BPF sitting on top of it, and nothing else (for example), or that Novell answer to the lack of a sliding window in SPX, TCP/IPX, might be an option, too. The point is that it's all about producer/consumer relationships, and consumers need producers, but not the other way around. > Other tweaks would need to be done if you need IPX instead of IP. Yes. The direct calls to ip_output() would need to be indirected through the PCB, so it could be properly stacked. That's just a minimal thing, though. > > There are also certain options which cause structure sizes to > > change, which are associated with particular things. As an > > example, the IPSEC stuff can't really be modularized, because > > there's per connection state that has to be there for it to > > be happy. > > Possibly. I can demonstrate this one. The real problem with IPSEC in the TCP/IPv4 case is that it was poorly retrofit from the KAME code into the IPv4. This caused a number of problems, one of which was your total number of connections supportable shrunk *a lot* when you enabled IPSEC, even if none of your connections were using it (we had done this for VPN support). > > Another issue having to do with structure size is that if the > > module you are trying to load was not compiled with the same > > options as the kernel you are trying to load it into, even if > > all the version stuff matches, including the proposed new > > versioning data, the structure sizes expected by the module > > and by the kernel can be different. A good example of this is > > something like "WITNESS" or "INVARIANTS", etc.. > > Hmm. Maybe its time for a export of certain compile-time options. You mean as sysctl's? Or you mean in an exported options file? I've always though having the config available in the kernel (it's there if the option is used), is probaby enough of an "export", if you are using it at compile time. You can even get enough out of it to check at runtime, if you ned to, though the data requires a little too much processing for me to want to use the code in a module. What Warner Losh was suggesting the other day, about versioning the kernel API, seems a lot more to my taste. One of the things Poul did recently, bringing in the C99 syntax requirements, is, I think, a step in the direction of decoupling. If it's going to become a dependency anyway, might as well do it right (for example, it's possible to get rid of one level of indirection in the VFS stack descriptors, using that approach, though you have to put it back in for a stacking layer like Heidemann's network transport layer, since peer machines may not have the same descriptor structure ordering). My personal preference is Julian's repeated suggestions that the structure sizes not vary based on options. That's still pretty hard to justify for something like "WITNESS", though, because a lot of the undesirable overhead isn't hookable or simply testable. > > The normal performance cost is all interfaces being indirected > > through a pointer. For most interfaces, this overhead is there > > anyway, so that all access is uniform. For other things, like > > schedulers, for example, the functions are linked directly, so > > they have to be resolved at compile time. > > Certian things (like the scheduler) would be harder to make into > modules. This is true. Actually, I think it would be pretty trivial. Jeff has talked about it, and it's probably less than a day to hack it up. You would need to keep at least one scheduler static (I suggest the standard one), and then on load, link a struct containing a string name and version and function decriptor list, onto a linked list of schedulers. Then to pick one, you set the name into the environment in the loader, and if it doesn't match anything, you get the default, and if it does, then you get whichever one you selected. It'd be really easy. At this point, I don't think anyone is really equipped to perform scheduler benchmarking; the closest is the "worldstone" ("make world") that people like Bruce and Jeff have used, and it's not really a good example of dynamic load. Without a benchmark, it's probably too controversial to change the scheduler entry points into pointer indirects instead of pre-resolved function calls, because you'd never be able to sufficiently determine the overhead to everyone's idea of satisfaction. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 7:47:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428A237B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B2243F3F for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:47:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.52.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.52] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18sPUK-000615-00; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:46:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6CB31A.CF52FA68@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:45:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: Ulf Zimmermann , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why I hate Redhat and Oracle ..... References: <20030307165322.H11496@seven.alameda.net> <20030308061511.A63630@xeon.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a468fe5fd3472aef0f7524892548ee1007a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > PLEASE ORACLE, PORT YOUR DAMN PRODUCT TO FREEBSD. > > That would be nice. Oracle already runs on FreeBSD. The NCP server was Oracle on FreeBSD; the client machines were NetBSD-based boxed (non-Intel); if FreeBSD had been there, they probably would have used FreeBSD for the clients, too. At the time Whistle played with it, we checked to see just how vanilla it was: Julian tarred up the thing, untarred it, and ran it on a straight FreeBSD box. John Dyson was involved in the port, and some of his fixes to pipe speed and shared memory management were done specifically in support of Oracle. What hasn't happened is that it has not been released by them as a supported product (unless you count the NCP server itself; most of the cost in a product is in support, especially for products like databases, which tend to require a lot of training, hand holding, etc.). Really annoying, since the code ran on FreeBSD long before it ever ran on Linux. 8-(. There was a rumor at one point about Yahoo levering them to get a FreeBSD version released based on actual sales. I don't know what happened there. On the other side of the coin, it al least used to run under the Linux ABI on FreeBSD, at one point, so that may also be an option. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 8: 1:53 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B4437B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EF043F75 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 27861 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2003 16:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2003 16:01:54 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h2AFwGhT065285; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:58:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3E69329B.2040803@cream.org> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:02:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Andrew Boothman Subject: Re: A question about kernel modules Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Mar-2003 Andrew Boothman wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > >>>The main point was that we get to load only one file, and have no >>>CDROM access after that, except through drivers which must be >>>present in the kernel. I think that's still valid to say. >>> >>> >> >>Nope. cdboot loads up a /boot/loader and you are free to load >>whatever modules you want off the CD just as if you were booting >>from a hard drive. That said, I personally favor static kernels >>and only use modules when I'm testing things. >> > > I guess this is really the nub of the question. > > Why do you "personally favour" static kernels over modules? Kernel debugging is much easier since gdb doesn't resolve symbols in modules without jumping through hoops. Also, optimizations from kernel options (like not having INVARIANTS or WITNESS on) do not affect modules. Modules are compiled to the lowest common denominator and thus aren't as optimized in some cases as the same code in a static kernel. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 8: 1:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B267A37B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1594F43F75 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 19601 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2003 16:01:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 10 Mar 2003 16:01:57 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h2AFwJhT065288; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:58:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3E6991F4.F8A10E3A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 11:02:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: A question about kernel modules Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Andrew Boothman , Damien Tougas Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Mar-2003 Terry Lambert wrote: > Another issue having to do with structure size is that if the > module you are trying to load was not compiled with the same > options as the kernel you are trying to load it into, even if > all the version stuff matches, including the proposed new > versioning data, the structure sizes expected by the module > and by the kernel can be different. A good example of this is > something like "WITNESS" or "INVARIANTS", etc.. WITNESS and INVARIANTS don't actually do this. I sometimes wish they did so we could cut down on the size of mutexes for normal kernels. In fact, very few options have this effect. One is MUTEX_PROFILING and this effect is intentional in that case. GENERIC isn't going to ship with that option on. :) Another is DEBUG_LOCKS which is also only used specifically by people who know what they are doing. :) Those were the only two I could find that affected the size of any structures in /usr/src/sys/sys/* -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 8:20:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5A037B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F57E43FB1 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2AGKjIo044731; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:20:45 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) with UUCP id h2AGKjrZ044730; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:20:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2AGJXIg027470; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:19:33 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200303101619.h2AGJXIg027470@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A question about kernel modules In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:33:27 PST." <3E6CB047.5D517419@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:19:33 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > That is not the way you would do it. Each Ethernet module would > > require IP, which in turn would co-require TCP and co-require UDP > > etc. If you tried to load IP with no ethernet driver, you'd get > > the loopback device, and TCP/UDP etc. > > You've sort of got that backward, I think. I can have all sorts > of protocols that *aren't* TCP that run on top of IP, and I can > have all sorts of protocols that aren't IP that run over an > ethernet interface. Still, I made the point that some dependancies run "backwards". > The ethernet interface might just be a promiscuous mode interface, > with a BPF sitting on top of it, and nothing else (for example), > or that Novell answer to the lack of a sliding window in SPX, > TCP/IPX, might be an option, too. So look at it as a "Provides" vs "needs" thing. Loading an ethernet card will premptively get you all the modules needed to abstract the general class of network interfaces. > The point is that it's all about producer/consumer relationships, > and consumers need producers, but not the other way around. Yes, but the production direction meets somewhere in the middle. Example (where 'A->B' implies 'B needs what A produces'): NICa -> ethernet.card.driver -> network.abstraction <- IP <- TCP ^ ^ ^ NICb -> ethernet.card.driver ---+ | +----UDP | loopback.device ----------+ and so on. This is at the module dependancy level, so DONT look at this as a sockets programmer and find layering faults at the ISO layer model level, it is NOT an ISO network stack diagram. It means that the network.abstaction is a kind of nexus on which the loadable modules can attach while creating a complete networking subsystem in the kernel. > > Other tweaks would need to be done if you need IPX instead of IP. > > Yes. The direct calls to ip_output() would need to be indirected > through the PCB, so it could be properly stacked. That's just a > minimal thing, though. It is not as simple as a stack, for module dependancies. But yes, it is not hard to provide the dependancy hooks. > I can demonstrate this one. The real problem with IPSEC in the > TCP/IPv4 case is that it was poorly retrofit from the KAME code > into the IPv4. This caused a number of problems, one of which > was your total number of connections supportable shrunk *a lot* > when you enabled IPSEC, even if none of your connections were > using it (we had done this for VPN support). Assertion, not demonstration. > > Hmm. Maybe its time for a export of certain compile-time options. > > You mean as sysctl's? Or you mean in an exported options file? Anything that works. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 8:34:15 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1FD37B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5161843FCB for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:34:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.52.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.52] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18sQE7-0007MF-00; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:34:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6CBE25.4475121F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:32:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Sica Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI: SCO Group Slaps IBM with $1B Suit References: <3093AC0A-51E7-11D7-A9E3-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b417cee0c253cdfa535fdae999877999a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Larry Sica wrote: > But this comes down to > a question, have the squid people tried to settle possible patent > issues with IBM? Squid isn't considered a commercial caching product, and as long as IBM doesn't ship it, they didn't seem to care. It's there, though. When IBM bought Whistle, we were well into developement on the InterJet II product, which included Squid. One of the requirements for them buying the company in the first place was Get Rid Of Squid. I don't think that IBM would enforce against Squid, per se, but it would enforce against a company using it in a product, I think. The PR issues with going after the Squid project itself are ugly. > > I have a real love/hate relationship with IBM over tactics like > > this: they are incredibly smart about some things, but incredibly > > dumb about others. > > They are like most companies, but bigger. IBM overall, at least now, > seems to be not so bad to deal with at least. You misinterpret my statement. I'm an ex-IBM employee; after they bought the company I worked for, there was 60% attrition in the first six months. I lasted a year and a half, but by that time, there were very few of the original people still around. One or two of them are still (more or less happily) with IBM today. The standard numbers for companies acquired by Cisco are less than 6% attrition after one year. A lot of it had to do with impedence mismatch in corporate culture; they could have done a lot better, I think. They are very smart about handling IP, and about their customer facing systems. They are much less smart about internal systems -- unit-to-unit, and employee-facing. Internal systems costs for customer acquisition are incredible, and IGS still talks about a 6 month order backlog, as if it's something to be proud of having. Very weird company. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 9: 0:44 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEFD37B401; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F0443F3F; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:00:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.244.104.52.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.104.52] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18sQdg-0003Xv-00; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:00:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6CC44B.95D13847@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:58:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray , Damien Tougas , Andrew Boothman , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A question about kernel modules References: <200303080856.h288ubIg021994@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3E6CB047.5D517419@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a42a2de2bdf8c5c2e03e538f4a322219b8548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Other tweaks would need to be done if you need IPX instead of IP. > > Yes. The direct calls to ip_output() would need to be indirected > through the PCB, so it could be properly stacked. That's just a > minimal thing, though. Meant protosw struct. Brain cramp. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 10:38:14 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DC737B401; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (c18609.belrs1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [210.49.80.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D92C43FA3; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:38:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (localhost.alcatel.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2AIc8iM004414; Tue, 11 Mar 2003 05:38:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jeremyp@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au) Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h2AHvdib004352; Tue, 11 Mar 2003 04:57:39 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 04:57:39 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Tim J. Robbins" , Mark Murray Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S Message-ID: <20030310175739.GA4311@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> References: <200303101054.h2AAsaKu089414@repoman.freebsd.org> <200303101238.h2ACcaIg077406@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303101238.h2ACcaIg077406@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Please copy me on any followups] On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 12:38:36PM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: >"Tim J. Robbins" writes: >> MFp4: Pentium-optimised implementation of wcscmp(). Performs significantly >> better than the code generated by gcc in many cases. > >is this the sort of thing that a compiler _in_theory_ could/should do >well, or is this the kind of assembler code that only a human could be >expected to come up with? In theory, there's no reason why a computer application can't do anything a human could do. In practice this is a lot more difficult. It would be fairly simple to get a compiler to do boilerplate code substitution: if (cpu==Pentium && function=="wcscmp") emit code. This just moves the code for wcsmp.S into the gcc back-end - where it is still MD but now in a format that fewer people can understand and still fewer would feel comfortable in modifying. In general, the best optimisations are achieved at a much higher level than compilers can easily achieve. My favourite example of this is the original code for compress(1) - which turns about 1/2 page of C code into a single VAX instruction. You're not going to get a compiler to recognize this level of equivalence. >I'm not too charmed with MD code; the more that could be done by the >compiler, the more I like it. :-) I think you still wind up with just as much MD code, it's just hidden in the compiler. >iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH Nice. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 12:12:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6223437B401; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F49543F93; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 12:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 01AEE530A; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:12:43 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Peter Jeremy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Tim J. Robbins" , Mark Murray Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:12:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030310175739.GA4311@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> (Peter Jeremy's message of "Tue, 11 Mar 2003 04:57:39 +1100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090014 (Oort Gnus v0.14) Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) References: <200303101054.h2AAsaKu089414@repoman.freebsd.org> <200303101238.h2ACcaIg077406@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030310175739.GA4311@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Jeremy writes: > In theory, there's no reason why a computer application can't do anything > a human could do. I'm looking forward to reading your proof that human thought processes are finite and deterministic... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 13:55:48 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A8437B401; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C3E43FAF; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.245.137.142.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.137.142] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18sVFD-0001ft-00; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:55:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6D0986.3F1A6EB@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 13:54:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Peter Jeremy , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Tim J. Robbins" , Mark Murray Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S References: <200303101054.h2AAsaKu089414@repoman.freebsd.org> <200303101238.h2ACcaIg077406@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20030310175739.GA4311@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a41805192d240dc34532b06e81b36215e0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Peter Jeremy writes: > > In theory, there's no reason why a computer application can't do anything > > a human could do. > > I'm looking forward to reading your proof that human thought processes > are finite and deterministic... Giving the names of specific politicians as examples of people with finite and deterministic thought processes is probably not sufficient... ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 14:40:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827E437B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:40:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9151E43F93 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:40:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2AMeYIo048658; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:40:34 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) with UUCP id h2AMeYNC048657; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:40:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2AMb3Ig074356; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:37:03 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200303102237.h2AMb3Ig074356@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Peter Jeremy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Mar 2003 04:57:39 +1100." <20030310175739.GA4311@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:37:03 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Jeremy writes: > [Please copy me on any followups] > It would be fairly simple to get a compiler to do boilerplate code > substitution: if (cpu==Pentium && function=="wcscmp") emit code. > This just moves the code for wcsmp.S into the gcc back-end - where > it is still MD but now in a format that fewer people can understand > and still fewer would feel comfortable in modifying. Yeah, but that is not general purpose. If someone didn't know of the wcscmp() function and coincidentally coded an exact replica under a different name, this would fail. What I'm asking of the compiler gurus is "How far can optimization be practically taken, in theory?" (Does that make sense?!) > In general, the best optimisations are achieved at a much higher level > than compilers can easily achieve. My favourite example of this is > the original code for compress(1) - which turns about 1/2 page of C > code into a single VAX instruction. You're not going to get a compiler > to recognize this level of equivalence. I'm guessing that this means there will always be room for humans to hand-code assembler. How far can this be made redundant, given that there is still lots of effort going into hand-coded asm functions? > >I'm not too charmed with MD code; the more that could be done by the > >compiler, the more I like it. :-) > > I think you still wind up with just as much MD code, it's just hidden > in the compiler. I would object to that too, in much the same way as I object to the GCC optimization of turning (eg) strlen() into an intrinsic operation. > >iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH > Nice. iwalqojd oN M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 14:56:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1295337B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B1343F93 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-209.245.137.142.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.137.142] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18sWBh-0005Wk-00; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:56:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6D17B7.5FDCEAFC@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:54:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: Peter Jeremy , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S References: <200303102237.h2AMb3Ig074356@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43a12c1fed3604deaf40a201e1e406b26a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > In general, the best optimisations are achieved at a much higher level > > than compilers can easily achieve. My favourite example of this is > > the original code for compress(1) - which turns about 1/2 page of C > > code into a single VAX instruction. You're not going to get a compiler > > to recognize this level of equivalence. > > I'm guessing that this means there will always be room for humans to > hand-code assembler. How far can this be made redundant, given that > there is still lots of effort going into hand-coded asm functions? I think that in all cases where it's possible, you want to have C language equivalents. Yeah, they are slow, but they are also portable. It's really a pain to try to go to a new architecture when there's all this assembly language code lying around. At the very least, you want there to be both platform independent and platform dependent versions of the code. Otherwise, nothing beats a good human for highly optimized assembler; with the exception of certain RISC architectures, where the wins are all about instruction scheduling, it's really hard for a compiler to beat a motivated human. Even with PPC or Alpha, a highly knowlegable human can still beat compilers, if they are fully aware of the need for instruction scheduling. It all really boils down to what you're willing to invest for small marginal speed improvements. If it's overhead on every system call, you care about it. If it's overhead on every process startup, you probably care about it a lot less. If it's overhead on the system boot, which gets executed once every 50 days or so, then you probably don't care at all. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 15:20:34 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5043B37B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9233343FBD for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2ANKTIo049088; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:20:29 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) with UUCP id h2ANKTgK049087; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:20:29 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2ANHnIg074715; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:17:49 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200303102317.h2ANHnIg074715@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Peter Jeremy , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Mar 2003 14:54:47 PST." <3E6D17B7.5FDCEAFC@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:17:49 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > I'm guessing that this means there will always be room for humans to > > hand-code assembler. How far can this be made redundant, given that > > there is still lots of effort going into hand-coded asm functions? > > I think that in all cases where it's possible, you want to have > C language equivalents. Yeah, they are slow, but they are also > portable. It's really a pain to try to go to a new architecture > when there's all this assembly language code lying around. At the > very least, you want there to be both platform independent and > platform dependent versions of the code. You are missing the point of my question. I _know_ a guru will aways eke out a bit more performance. What I'm asking is "what shape is the performance/effort curve for _compilers_?" and I'm leading towards "When, if ever, will compiler optimization be such that hand coding assembler for system libraries is a waste of time (on average)?" What I _really_ want to know is how much optimization is _not_ done, either because its too hard/slow, or because its too difficult to do. I also want to know how complete we think our optimization understanding is, ie whether there is lots of scope for research or we think we know most of the theory already. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 15:32: 5 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99BF37B401 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from maul.immure.com (ns.immure.com [207.8.42.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2279F43F85 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@immure.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by maul.immure.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) id h2ANVvgs089143; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:31:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bob@immure.com) Received: from luke.immure.com (luke.vieo.com [10.1.132.3]) by maul.immure.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h2ANVvId089086; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:31:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bob@immure.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by luke.immure.com (8.12.7/8.12.3) id h2ANVvxL046230; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:31:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bob@luke.immure.com) Received: from luke.immure.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by luke.immure.com (8.12.7/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h2ANVugb046205; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:31:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bob@luke.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.immure.com (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) id h2ANVuoQ046204; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:31:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:31:56 -0600 From: Bob Willcox To: Terry Lambert Cc: Larry Sica , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI: SCO Group Slaps IBM with $1B Suit Message-ID: <20030310233156.GC40731@luke.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <3093AC0A-51E7-11D7-A9E3-000393A335A2@mac.com> <3E6CBE25.4475121F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E6CBE25.4475121F@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 on luke.immure.com X-scanner: scanned by Inflex 1.0.12.3 on maul.immure.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As a 30-year veteran of IBM, I'll say that the (at least old) IBM culture had it's good points (job security being one of them). Also, in my experience, they seemed to take more interest in their employees than most companies. The thing they never did seem to do well, though was to integrate or deal with smaller companies that they acquired (I remember Rolm in particular). I must say that my final 12 years at IBM were spent working on AIX (from the RT in the early/mid '80s through release 4.1 for the RS/6K). During that period (particularly during the early years) the AIX programming center was very unconventional for IBM as a whole. We were promoting Unix (still a 4-letter word in most IBMer's vocabulary at the time) and it seemed that much of the rest of the company viewed us as the enemy. We were much less formal or controlled by corporate than most divisions within the company in those early days of AIX. I can't say how it is today, possibly quite changed. Bob On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 08:32:37AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Larry Sica wrote: > > But this comes down to > > a question, have the squid people tried to settle possible patent > > issues with IBM? > > Squid isn't considered a commercial caching product, and as long as > IBM doesn't ship it, they didn't seem to care. It's there, though. > > When IBM bought Whistle, we were well into developement on the > InterJet II product, which included Squid. One of the requirements > for them buying the company in the first place was Get Rid Of Squid. > > I don't think that IBM would enforce against Squid, per se, but it > would enforce against a company using it in a product, I think. The > PR issues with going after the Squid project itself are ugly. > > > > > I have a real love/hate relationship with IBM over tactics like > > > this: they are incredibly smart about some things, but incredibly > > > dumb about others. > > > > They are like most companies, but bigger. IBM overall, at least now, > > seems to be not so bad to deal with at least. > > You misinterpret my statement. I'm an ex-IBM employee; after they > bought the company I worked for, there was 60% attrition in the > first six months. I lasted a year and a half, but by that time, > there were very few of the original people still around. One or > two of them are still (more or less happily) with IBM today. The > standard numbers for companies acquired by Cisco are less than 6% > attrition after one year. A lot of it had to do with impedence > mismatch in corporate culture; they could have done a lot better, > I think. They are very smart about handling IP, and about their > customer facing systems. They are much less smart about internal > systems -- unit-to-unit, and employee-facing. Internal systems > costs for customer acquisition are incredible, and IGS still talks > about a 6 month order backlog, as if it's something to be proud of > having. Very weird company. 8-(. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Bob Willcox We seem to have forgotten the simple truth that bob@vieo.com reason is never perfect. Only non-sense attains Austin, TX perfection. -- Poul Henningsen [1894-1967] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 10 22:39: 4 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A4737B404 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (12-233-57-224.client.attbi.com [12.233.57.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D6143FBF for ; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:39:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2B6cxIX004775; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:38:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h2B6cvxq004774; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:38:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:38:57 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Mark Murray Cc: Terry Lambert , Peter Jeremy , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/i386/string Makefile.inc wcscmp.S Message-ID: <20030311063857.GA4638@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Murray , Terry Lambert , Peter Jeremy , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <3E6D17B7.5FDCEAFC@mindspring.com> <200303102317.h2ANHnIg074715@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303102317.h2ANHnIg074715@grimreaper.grondar.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Mark Murray : > I _know_ a guru will aways eke out a bit more performance. What I'm > asking is "what shape is the performance/effort curve for _compilers_?" > and I'm leading towards "When, if ever, will compiler optimization > be such that hand coding assembler for system libraries is a waste > of time (on average)?" What I _really_ want to know is how much > optimization is _not_ done, either because its too hard/slow, or > because its too difficult to do. I also want to know how complete > we think our optimization understanding is, ie whether there is > lots of scope for research or we think we know most of the theory > already. If you read the dragon book, Aho and Sethi seem to tell you that all of the world's compiler problems can be solved by throwing theorems at them. But I think that optimization really comes down to a bunch of heuristics, and to the extent to which there are theories, the theories are either impractical (e.g. the algorithm takes exponential time) or not fully general. You can always make a compiler optimize for any *specific* case that you want. For instance, you could train it to recognize a loop that implements ffs(3) and translate that into a single VAX or i386 (?) instruction. But if you wanted it to understand loops that compute log2 or do multiplication by iterated addition, those would just be more special cases. The problem of taking an arbitrary program and finding the most efficient way to compute its result will never be solved (since the halting problem reduces to it), but the heuristics and approximations seem to keep getting better as computers get better. I'm working with some colleagues on a model checking tool for analyzing certain security-relevant aspects of C programs that would have taken too much time and space to be practical a few years ago. Microsoft is using a similar tool to find certain kinds of bugs in Windows. In a few years, general-purpose compilers may be able to adopt similar techniques. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 14 9: 2:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC2137B401 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from netpublishing.com (blackbox.netpublishing.com [209.237.225.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEEB43FA3 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: from netpublishing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netpublishing.com (8.12.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h2EH2msW040636 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggilliss@netpublishing.com) Received: (from ggilliss@localhost) by netpublishing.com (8.12.6/8.12.2/Submit) id h2EH2mp0040635 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:02:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:02:48 -0800 From: "Gregory A. Gilliss" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux and Oracle Going for Security Certification Message-ID: <20030314170248.GA40497@netpublishing.com> Reply-To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spook: AES, Covert, Intiso, LASINT, r00t, satellite, C4I, Eagle Fury Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following press release: http://www.oracle.com/corporate/press/index.html?1623351.html details how Oracle and Red Hat are attempting to have RH Linux certified for an EAL2 certification. A successful eval will allow RH (and Oracle, who are adopting the platform aggressively) to create a "standard" secure distro, which will almost certainly be adopted by the public and private sector. Too bad FreeBSD (which is and has always been better technically, IMHO) doesn't have this kind of marketing. I'd feel better about my chances of not having to learn (yuk) Linux if it was us instead of them being considered. Wonder why the FreeBSD project doesn't seem to have any publically visible evangelism? Shame. G -- -- "You can't separate peace from freedom because greg@gilliss.com -- no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." ICQ 123710561 -- - Malcolm X (1925-1965) 1 510 559 1840 (v) -- http://www.gilliss.com/greg/ PGP Key fingerprint 2F 0B 70 AE 5F 8E 71 7A 2D 86 52 BA B7 83 D9 B4 14 0E 8C A3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 14 9:31:58 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9BE37B404 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1640643FBF for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A33755308; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:31:53 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux and Oracle Going for Security Certification From: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:31:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20030314170248.GA40497@netpublishing.com> ("Gregory A. Gilliss"'s message of "Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:02:48 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <20030314170248.GA40497@netpublishing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gregory A. Gilliss" writes: > details how Oracle and Red Hat are attempting to have RH Linux certified > for an EAL2 certification. A successful eval will allow RH (and Oracle, > who are adopting the platform aggressively) to create a "standard" secure > distro, which will almost certainly be adopted by the public and private > sector. As has already been pointed out in other fora, an EAL certification - especially EAL2, which is the second lowest level rung on the 7-rung EAL ladder - means absolutely nothing. Microsoft Windows 2000 SP3 was recently certified at EAL4. I'm sure the RedHat are *real* proud that (if you give EAL certification any credence) their OS is certifiably less secure than Windows 2000, by about two levels of magnitude. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 14 14:23:55 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498FB37B401 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from xeon.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B6F43F75 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 14:23:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: by xeon.unixathome.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 905223F4A; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xeon.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851933F49; Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:26:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:26:10 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: "Gregory A. Gilliss" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux and Oracle Going for Security Certification In-Reply-To: <20030314170248.GA40497@netpublishing.com> Message-ID: <20030314172546.F60320@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20030314170248.GA40497@netpublishing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Gregory A. Gilliss wrote: > The following press release: > > http://www.oracle.com/corporate/press/index.html?1623351.html Also of interest is Linux ISO certification. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 1:38:21 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D646E37B405 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225DC43F75 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.gorean.org (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03) with SMTP id <2003031509381900300a1q5re>; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 09:38:19 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 01:38:18 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Updated: procmail recipe to create cvsweb/PR URL's for commits Message-ID: <20030315013324.A1839@znfgre.tberna.bet> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I haven't mentioned this in a while since it hasn't changed much in recent years, but since I had to update the header lines anyway, I thought I'd mention it here in case anyone is interested. I have a procmail recipe that I use to create URL's to both cvsweb and the PR database for commit messages. In addtion to the e-mail header update, I recently added code to better handle new and removed files. You can find the whole business at http://people.freebsd.org/~dougb/cvsweb-procmail.html Enjoy, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 2: 4:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5710037B408 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 02:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 211-189-139-167.rev.krline.net (211-189-139-167.rev.krline.net [211.189.139.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4233843F75 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 02:04:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sender@refill.co.kr) Received: from zOA (unverified [211.235.237.59]) by 211-189-139-167.rev.krline.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 06:54:41 +0900 Message-ID: Subject: 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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 14:58:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C0737B401 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95FEE43FAF for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 14:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18uKc1-0007mu-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:58:45 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h2FMwiPe072419 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:58:45 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h2FMwiPt072418 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:58:44 GMT Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:58:44 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: When does it make sense for a company to open-source its code? Message-ID: <20030315225844.GA72313@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18uKc1-0007mu-00*LY/zeA6bRDw* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I'm hoping I could get some input on a question. We have heard a lot of very good reasons why it makes sense to use open source projects in a commercial setting, and even hiring a developer to customize it for us. In this case the changes are often given back to the parent project, when practical and possible. However, here is a different situation, and I would like your thoughts. The company I work at designs scientific instruments controlled from a host PC. That PC has to run Windows right now. However, I am being asked to look into porting at least some of the software, possibly just the hardware control components, to Linux/Unix. One of our divisions that makes an entirely different type of hardware currently sells workstations with Linux-based software that is binary only. If I were to port any of our software to *nix, I would make sure FreeBSD would be supported, of course. Just by way of an overview, the software is basically composed of components that communicate to the instruments via serial/GPIB/USB/IP, 'engines' that tie the components into sequential steps to make experiments, and a UI to make it all easy to use. What might be some guidelines to follow to decide what should be made open source (BSD license) and what should be binary-only? Could we practically do both? If binary-only is becoming widely unacceptable, what else could be done to protect our intellectual property? NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 16:21:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34B837B401 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from net.wau.nl (NET.WAU.NL [137.224.10.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0408C43FB1 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from FST777@phreaker.net) Received: from asser079.athome239.wau.nl (asser079.athome239.wau.nl [137.224.239.79]) by net.WAU.NL (PMDF V5.2-32 #38746) with ESMTP id <0HBT00H6VFNMOC@net.WAU.NL> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:21:23 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 01:21:05 +0100 (CET) From: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" Subject: Re: When does it make sense for a company to open-source its code? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org Reply-To: FST777@phreaker.net Message-id: <0HBT00H6WFNMOC@net.WAU.NL> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Spruce 0.6.5 for X11 w/smtpio 0.7.9 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org one thing is that a huge part of the testing / bug-reporting, porting and enhancing can be done for free. Another thing is that people get to know the name of the company easier. Just to name a few. Expecially if the involved company makes its internal-used software Open Source and some expensive "sale-ware" binary. All the advantages will point to the fact that behind every Open Source software-project a huge supporting community stands. That is always a nice idea for a company. On Sat, 15 Mar 2003, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 22:58:44 +0000 > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > From: Jonathon McKitrick > Subject: When does it make sense for a company to open-source its code? > > > Hi all, > > I'm hoping I could get some input on a question. > > We have heard a lot of very good reasons why it makes sense to use open > source projects in a commercial setting, and even hiring a developer to > customize it for us. In this case the changes are often given back to > the > parent project, when practical and possible. > > However, here is a different situation, and I would like your thoughts. > > The company I work at designs scientific instruments controlled from a > host > PC. That PC has to run Windows right now. However, I am being asked to > look into porting at least some of the software, possibly just the > hardware > control components, to Linux/Unix. One of our divisions that makes an > entirely different type of hardware currently sells workstations with > Linux-based software that is binary only. If I were to port any of our > software to *nix, I would make sure FreeBSD would be supported, of > course. > > Just by way of an overview, the software is basically composed of > components > that communicate to the instruments via serial/GPIB/USB/IP, 'engines' > that > tie the components into sequential steps to make experiments, and a UI to > make it all easy to use. > > What might be some guidelines to follow to decide what should be made > open > source (BSD license) and what should be binary-only? Could we > practically > do both? If binary-only is becoming widely unacceptable, what else could > be > done to protect our intellectual property? > > NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks. > > jm > -- > My other computer is your windows box. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 18:25:27 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D13437B404 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:25:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.knology.net (smtp2.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5664143F85 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 18:25:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 16590 invoked from network); 16 Mar 2003 02:25:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 2003 02:25:20 -0000 From: David Kelly To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When does it make sense for a company to open-source its code? Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:25:23 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030315225844.GA72313@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20030315225844.GA72313@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200303152025.23590.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 15 March 2003 04:58 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > The company I work at designs scientific instruments controlled from > a host PC. That PC has to run Windows right now. However, I am > being asked to look into porting at least some of the software, > possibly just the hardware control components, to Linux/Unix. [...] > What might be some guidelines to follow to decide what should be made > open source (BSD license) and what should be binary-only? Could we > practically do both? If binary-only is becoming widely unacceptable, > what else could be done to protect our intellectual property? By _contributing_ the source code to drivers for your hardware to projects such as FreeBSD you would gain when/if the expert FreeBSD kernel people happen to look in to your driver and make suggestions. Or possibly outright fix it for you. The more open your license, the more likely to benefit from a free fix. The more likely that as FreeBSD evolves your driver won't be left behind. Another advantage in releasing your drivers under a BSD license is when I go looking for FreeBSD hardware the first place I look is for that which FreeBSD already supports. If you are on that list and your product meets my needs I'm not going to go beg somebody else to port their product. I'm not going to attempt porting it myself. If I'm not mistaken, the I/O hardware for the data collection industry has pretty much unified and standardized on clones of National Intruments products? And somehow/someway yours differ? Would suggest in addition to the hardware drivers that working userland example code be provided. And under SEE ALSO in the man page for the driver you could provide a URL ("free" advertising) pointing at the full pay-for application. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 19:58:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0530337B404 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEDF43F85 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 19:58:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18uPIB-000PsK-00; Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:58:35 +0000 Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h2G3wZPe074209; Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:58:35 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id h2G3wYh0074208; Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:58:34 GMT Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 03:58:34 +0000 From: Jonathon McKitrick To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When does it make sense for a company to open-source its code? Message-ID: <20030316035834.GA74104@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20030315225844.GA72313@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200303152025.23590.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303152025.23590.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18uPIB-000PsK-00*SNvIMkv.rWM* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 08:25:23PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: : On Saturday 15 March 2003 04:58 pm, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: : > : > The company I work at designs scientific instruments controlled from : > a host PC. That PC has to run Windows right now. However, I am : > being asked to look into porting at least some of the software, : > possibly just the hardware control components, to Linux/Unix. : [...] : > What might be some guidelines to follow to decide what should be made : > open source (BSD license) and what should be binary-only? Could we : > practically do both? If binary-only is becoming widely unacceptable, : > what else could be done to protect our intellectual property? 8<---------------- : If I'm not mistaken, the I/O hardware for the data collection industry : has pretty much unified and standardized on clones of National : Intruments products? And somehow/someway yours differ? 8<--------------------- Actually, what I am calling a 'driver' is more of a controller, which is just a translator of commands to send through the actual interface, be it serial, GPIB (NI), IP, and so on. Jonathon -- For Sale: French Army rifle. Never fired, dropped once. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 15 21:25:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5033337B401 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardtime.linuxman.net (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480EE43F85 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 21:25:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hardtime.linuxman.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2G6e3506318; Sun, 16 Mar 2003 00:40:04 -0600 Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id C83FA20F3C; Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:24:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:24:00 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: When does it make sense for a company to open-source its code? Message-ID: <20030316052400.GJ41628@over-yonder.net> References: <0HBT00H6WFNMOC@net.WAU.NL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0HBT00H6WFNMOC@net.WAU.NL> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 16, 2003 at 01:21:05AM +0100 I heard the voice of Frans-Jan v. Steenbeek, and lo! it spake thus: > > All the advantages will point to the fact that behind every Open Source > software-project a huge supporting community stands. That is always a nice > idea for a company. Behing every _SUCCESSFUL_ open source software project, is how that should read. One of Terry's favorite themes to harp on; that community is the biggest asset of an open source project, but you can't magic a community into being by waving a magic wand and saying, "Abracadabra, this code is open source." -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message