From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 25 19:48:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1538A37B401 for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 19:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web80303.mail.yahoo.com (web80303.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.79.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EE0F43FAF for ; Sun, 25 May 2003 19:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkanowitz@snet.net) Message-ID: <20030526024846.79350.qmail@web80303.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.252.49.4] by web80303.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 25 May 2003 19:48:46 PDT Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Kanowitz" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: OT: Authoritative reference for Via 686B bugs? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:48:47 -0000 This is a hardware question, but as it does not (currently) pertain to FreeBSD, I figured I'd drop it here before wasting a development list's time. As some of you may know, the Eyetech AmigaOne (ATX PowerPC board) is based on a MAI Articia S northbridge, and a Via 686B southbridge/multifunction-wonderchip. Further, some controversy is raging in that scene over "DMA bugs," which may or may not be rooted in the hardware. (Reference the usual incoherent chatter on http://www.ann.lu.) Both the BSD world and Linux appear to have long-since addressed the issues on the x86 platform, but it seems the only public 'documentation' thereof is scattered among the source tree(s) and various mailing lists and newsgroups. The wave of rumors and hearsay that swept the overclocking world further cloud matters when searching for answers 'after the fact.' So, as a BSD user myself, the development community seems an obvious place to turn. Can anyone speak with authority on *what* the 'bugs' in Via's hardware were, *where* they resided (686B vs. northbridges vs. 3rd-party hardware), and *how* they were addressed? On the last point, I'm personally less concerned about implementation detail than about understanding the situation at-large - that is, whether there are 'fixed' and 'broken' variants of the 686B, or if the problems never resided there at all; that sort of big-picture info. A retrospective look at things would be a boon not only for Amiga nuts, but also owners of (presumably-)affected x86 hardware- a group I happen to count myself among. Of course, if such a document already exists, feel free to hit me with the URL. -Thanks for reading, and for all the hard work! -Joe "Floid" Kanowitz From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 26 01:50:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15B837B404 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 01:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD5943F85 for ; Mon, 26 May 2003 01:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc19i.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.5.50] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19KDgn-0001eK-00; Mon, 26 May 2003 01:50:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3ED1D466.8DB55C30@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 01:46:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "J. Kanowitz" References: <20030526024846.79350.qmail@web80303.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a442ea8247ad71923303859b5e0d47cda3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Authoritative reference for Via 686B bugs? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 08:50:47 -0000 "J. Kanowitz" wrote: > This is a hardware question, but as it does not > (currently) pertain to FreeBSD, I figured I'd drop it > here before wasting a development list's time. > > As some of you may know, the Eyetech AmigaOne (ATX > PowerPC board) is based on a MAI Articia S > northbridge, and a Via 686B > southbridge/multifunction-wonderchip. Further, some > controversy is raging in that scene over "DMA bugs," > which may or may not be rooted in the hardware. > (Reference the usual incoherent chatter on > http://www.ann.lu.) Here's what they admit in their FAQ: Question: I am having trouble with a system using a VIA chipset including a 686b southbridge and a Creative Sound Blaster Live card. Answer: When the 686b southbridge was first released, motherboard manufacturers and VIA discovered a problem when trying to transfer files between the primary and the secondary IDE channels on motherboards using ultra-DMA, when a Sound Blaster Live was plugged in and drivers activated. This issue was caused because too much noise is transferred across the PCI bus by the Sound Blaster Live driver set. In an attempt to fix this issue, some motherboard manufacturers modified their BIOS. In some instances, these modifications to the BIOS caused a data corruption error even when not using a Sound Blaster Live. VIA released a patch which resolves this issue, which is incoroporated in the 4in1 drivers from the 4.31 version onwards. Motherboard manufacturers were advised to change the modifications made to thier BIOS to elimate the data corruption issue. If you are experiencing data corruption or lock up when transferring files between two IDE drives: 1) Make sure you have the latest BIOS from your motherboard manufacturer. 2) Make sure you have the latest 4in1 drivers 3) Make sure when you set up your system that you install the 4in1 drivers both before and after you install the SBL to make sure that the drivers see your SBL and install the correct patch. The patch will only install if the SBL is installed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you read German, there's also: http://www.tweakpc.de/berichte/tipps_tricks/via_686b_bug.htm http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/jow-12.04.01-001/ http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=589116&forum_id=11567 Also, according to some posts in their "forum" area of their technical support web site, there are problems with the USB implementation, as well. All in all, not a chip to use in a new design. 8-(. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 27 16:54:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E473337B401 for ; Tue, 27 May 2003 16:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E40143FBF for ; Tue, 27 May 2003 16:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from krylenko@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3p2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h4RNvU5L020617; Tue, 27 May 2003 19:57:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from krylenko@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (krylenko@localhost)h4RNvUgT020614; Tue, 27 May 2003 23:57:30 GMT Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:57:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Nikolai Krylenko To: johake@online.no Message-ID: <20030527235716.T20562-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:54:48 -0000 Hi, jostein! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 28 23:20:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584B137B48E for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fed1mtao06.cox.net (fed1mtao06.cox.net [68.6.19.125]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C626643F3F for ; Wed, 28 May 2003 23:20:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stickney@ece.arizona.edu) Received: from HarryPotter.hogwarts ([68.105.138.15]) by fed1mtao06.cox.net ESMTP <20030529062015.QKXL25684.fed1mtao06.cox.net@HarryPotter.hogwarts> for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 02:20:15 -0400 From: Robert Stickney To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:20:16 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305282320.16367.stickney@ece.arizona.edu> Subject: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 06:20:17 -0000 I am relatively new to FreeBSD. I move from MS Windows, tried linux, and fell in love with the ports tree. I am trying to setup my email system. I found Evolution. It is a nice replacement of MS Outlook but then realized that I could do more if i found the right blend of software. I am looking for suggestions of software (mostlikely a group of software) which will allow me to meet these criteria: robust sorting system some intelligent way to deal with spam nice GUI for use in XFree86 shell interface to same email database for remote access (the two clients running at the same time would be best) if possible share an address book (and with Palm Vx) a good calendar system (links with Palm Vx - have jPilot installed) if possible download new emails into Palm Vx (sorted into correct directories -- MS outlook could not do that.) later it might be nice to add web email as a remote option. Any suggestions would be help full. If anybody has done anything similar it would be nice to know how you did it. Thank you, Robert Stickney stickney@ece.arizona.edu PS. Please CC me since I am not currently signed up to the listserve. PPS. Sent this message to both Chat and Newbies to get different perspectives. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 29 02:49:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4926C37B401 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 02:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9FEF43F3F for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 02:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19LK27-000OOZ-H6; Thu, 29 May 2003 10:49:15 +0100 Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:49:15 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Robert Stickney Message-ID: <20030529094915.GU84666@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <200305282320.16367.stickney@ece.arizona.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200305282320.16367.stickney@ece.arizona.edu> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:49:12 -0000 On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 11:20:16PM -0700, Robert Stickney wrote: > robust sorting system Mozilla > some intelligent way to deal with spam Mozilla > nice GUI for use in XFree86 Mozilla. I would have said mutt for the above, but the "nice gui" thing obviously negates mutt from your considerations, which is a shame. > shell interface to same email database for remote access Nasty. I actually don't use Mozilla so am not sure how it handles mail spools. Instead I use mutt which does everything above so far except it doesn't have a GUI. Plus it takes some work to get "just right" for your own tastes, but for me, it rocks. :-) > if possible share an address book (and with Palm Vx) Mutt uses a file called "aliases" in your home directory, the format of which is easy enough to script up a parses for to whack it into your Palm. I have no idea how Mozzy handles address books. > a good calendar system (links with Palm Vx - have jPilot installed) Doesn't the calendar stuff in KDE do that? I don't have a Palm, so never considered it, but I'm sure I saw somewhere.... > later it might be nice to add web email as a remote option. Better off using your ISPs webmail, but then it all comes down to where does the MX for your domain point to, how do you collect mail at the moment, how would you like to collect it in the future, and so on... the advantage to 'nix (not just FreeBSD) is you can do anything you want, any way you want. Unless it's USB and FireWire voodoo in which case you might not be able to. :-) > Any suggestions would be help full. If anybody has done anything similar it > would be nice to know how you did it. We *all* have e-mail, and we all have preferences as to how it should be done... > PPS. Sent this message to both Chat and Newbies to get different perspectives. And as cross-posting is stupid, I've only followed up to -chat. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 29 03:05:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D071F37B401 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 03:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F08043F85 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 03:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4TA56gD027068; Thu, 29 May 2003 19:35:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Paul Robinson , Robert Stickney Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:35:06 +0930 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200305282320.16367.stickney@ece.arizona.edu> <20030529094915.GU84666@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20030529094915.GU84666@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200305291935.06164.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 () CARRIAGE_RETURNS,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_05_08,USER_AGENT X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.16 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:05:22 -0000 On Thu, 29 May 2003 19:19, Paul Robinson wrote: > Mozilla. I would have said mutt for the above, but the "nice gui" thing > obviously negates mutt from your considerations, which is a shame. > > > shell interface to same email database for remote access > > Nasty. I actually don't use Mozilla so am not sure how it handles mail > spools. Instead I use mutt which does everything above so far except it > doesn't have a GUI. Plus it takes some work to get "just right" for your > own tastes, but for me, it rocks. :-) Run an IMAP server and use Mozilla/Mutt/SquirrelMail/whatever to access it. > > if possible share an address book (and with Palm Vx) > > Mutt uses a file called "aliases" in your home directory, the format of > which is easy enough to script up a parses for to whack it into your Palm. > I have no idea how Mozzy handles address books. You can share Mozilla address books to PalmOS I believe. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 29 21:59:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BDA37B401 for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.213.64.2] (firewall.tiadon.com [204.213.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165B043F3F for ; Thu, 29 May 2003 21:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from rmc.tiadon.com by [204.213.64.2] ESMTP; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:59:13 -0500 Received: from applications.tiadon.com (mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) by bcec01.tiadon.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id LQ2N6S46; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:59:12 -0500 Received: from firewall.tiadon.com ([204.213.65.36]) by applications.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 29 May 2003 23:59:14 -0500 Received: from [204.213.65.36] by firewall.tiadon.com via smtpd (for mail.tiadon.com [172.16.18.172]) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 May 2003 23:59:10 -0500 Message-ID: <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> From: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Bill Moran" , "Stephen McKay" References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 23:58:59 -0500 Organization: DaleCo, S.P.---"the solutions people" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-ladentreatise on SCO vs. IBM) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 04:59:14 -0000 From: "Bill Moran" To: "Stephen McKay" Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:01 PM Subject: Re: grammar (was Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-ladentreatise on SCO vs. IBM) > Stephen McKay wrote: > > On Wednesday, 21st May 2003, brian@planetshwoop.com wrote: > > > >>On Tue, 20 May 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >> > >>>What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about gifts to > >> ^^^^^ > >> > >>You commend his grammar and then stick that whammie in there? > >> > >>You, not "y'all". Please. > > > > No! No! It is merely artistic flair! > > > > Once he's established his impeccable grasp of grammar he is permitted to > > bend it in order to demonstrate his grasp of the vernacular, hence showing > > he not only knows the Official Grammar, but also a Dialect. It's a solid > > points scorer. > > > > This isn't the same as the 99% of Internet users who believe a valid > > contraction of "you are" is "your", or the other new percent who know > > about "you're", but believe it is a possessive pronoun. > > > > Salt with :-) as necessary, and enjoy your language! > > Are you talking about the people who don't know the difference between > "then" and "than" and think that "sux" is spelled properly? > The spelling of this word as "sux" is permissible as a visual rhyme during religious flame wars, e.g. "Tux sux!" Kevin Kinsey grammar-nazi-in-training From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 06:29:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47DF37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yorktown.nielsenmedia.com (yorktown.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEE843F85 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David.W.Gray@nielsenmedia.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg10.nmrlan.net (nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.154])h4UDTZCh028379 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (unverified) by nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:29:35 -0400 Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:29:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Gray, David W" To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:29:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:29:37 -0000 I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, painful. It really does not do folders well, at all. I use squirrelmail whenever I want to move stuff around, or maybe Mozilla (only issue with Mozilla is its such a hog... I'd really like to see them reduce it's footprint.) (In all fairness to Mozilla, I run it a lot on my 166MHz, 64Mb machine, along with KDE 2.2, and apache, and a TV card... Try *that* with any modern version of Windows). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:35:06 +0930 >From: "Daniel O'Connor" >Subject: Re: preferred email system >To: Paul Robinson , Robert Stickney >Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >Message-ID: <200305291935.06164.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Thu, 29 May 2003 19:19, Paul Robinson wrote: > Mozilla. I would have said mutt for the above, but the "nice gui" thing > obviously negates mutt from your considerations, which is a shame. > > > shell interface to same email database for remote access > > Nasty. I actually don't use Mozilla so am not sure how it handles mail > spools. Instead I use mutt which does everything above so far except it > doesn't have a GUI. Plus it takes some work to get "just right" for your > own tastes, but for me, it rocks. :-) Run an IMAP server and use Mozilla/Mutt/SquirrelMail/whatever to access it. > > if possible share an address book (and with Palm Vx) > > Mutt uses a file called "aliases" in your home directory, the format of > which is easy enough to script up a parses for to whack it into your Palm. > I have no idea how Mozzy handles address books. You can share Mozilla address books to PalmOS I believe. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 08:24:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2BD37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8139443F93 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19Lljz-000F3n-Uo; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:24:23 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:24:23 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Gray, David W" Message-ID: <20030530152423.GE84666@iconoplex.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:24:19 -0000 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 09:29:35AM -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, painful. It Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail delivered direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy of fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local machine for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) > really > does not do folders well, at all. I use squirrelmail whenever I want to move I use folders all the time. If you configure properly it's really nice, you just have to ] and ! around a bit. It's far quicker than tabbing and arrowing... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 08:29:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C15E37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yorktown.nielsenmedia.com (yorktown.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D8B43FAF for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David.W.Gray@nielsenmedia.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg10.nmrlan.net (nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.154])h4UFTmCh015195 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 11:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (unverified) by nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com ; Fri, 30 May 2003 11:29:47 -0400 Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 30 May 2003 11:29:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Gray, David W" To: "'Paul Robinson'" Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:29:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:29:50 -0000 I do use fetchmail. I use IMAP so that I can unify my mailbox across the different methods I use to access it (depending on where I am, e.g., Mozilla, Squirrelmail via secure http, etc, etc.) My biggest complaint is that mutt connects via IMAP, then wants to move the e-mail in the inbox to the same place (inbox) it came from... (not amusing if I hit Y at the wrong time.) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Robinson [mailto:paul@iconoplex.co.uk] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 11:24 AM To: Gray, David W Cc: 'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org' Subject: Re: Re: preferred email system On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 09:29:35AM -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, painful. It Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail delivered direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy of fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local machine for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) > really > does not do folders well, at all. I use squirrelmail whenever I want to move I use folders all the time. If you configure properly it's really nice, you just have to ] and ! around a bit. It's far quicker than tabbing and arrowing... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 08:35:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF1A37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8B843F85 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8081710BF82; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:35:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:35:22 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: "Gray, David W" Message-ID: <20030530153521.GD414@nitro.dk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lc9FT7cWel8HagAv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:35:28 -0000 --lc9FT7cWel8HagAv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.05.30 11:29:45 -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > I do use fetchmail. I use IMAP so that I can unify my mailbox=20 > across the different methods I use to access it (depending on > where I am, e.g., Mozilla, Squirrelmail via secure http, etc, etc.) >=20 > My biggest complaint is that mutt connects via IMAP, then wants to > move the e-mail in the inbox to the same place (inbox) it came from... (n= ot > amusing if I hit Y at the wrong time.) set move=3Dno should fix that. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen --lc9FT7cWel8HagAv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+13o58kocFXgPTRwRAgXtAJ9C/5+sQ+iy1jDDQQgyzZ2G+44RYwCgijiz /E70VBsaavIHCeml/+6jrFo= =0uOw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lc9FT7cWel8HagAv-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 08:39:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFB937B404 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-106-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F8B43F75 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 08:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20]) by crf-consulting.co.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4UFdZRf022114; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:39:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4UFdZLG055164; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:39:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by clan.nothing-going-on.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4UFdYPh055163; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:39:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:39:34 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Gray, David W" Message-ID: <20030530153934.GB55077@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:39:41 -0000 --XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 09:29:35AM -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, painful.= =20 Use isync (or similar) to synchronise the IMAP folders to local Maildir folders, and point Mutt at them, instead of using Mutt's native IMAP support. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+13s1k6gHZCw343URAgSKAJ9MBwLmKvQBzInzypz6cAwPhZHyuACfdFe5 MWVVSphgvVBV4FpLHqiUtZQ= =vxKU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 09:04:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7032C37B405 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A60543FAF for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (unknown [67.98.154.9]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1189813E221; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:04:47 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: "Gray, David W" From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6F71F880-92B8-11D7-87FC-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:04:48 -0000 On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 09:29 AM, Gray, David W wrote: > I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, > painful. It > really > does not do folders well, at all. I use squirrelmail whenever I want > to move > stuff > around, or maybe Mozilla (only issue with Mozilla is its such a hog... > I'd > really > like to see them reduce it's footprint.) (In all fairness to Mozilla, > I run > it a lot > on my 166MHz, 64Mb machine, along with KDE 2.2, and apache, and a TV > card... > Try *that* > with any modern version of Windows). > I like sylpheed-claws. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 09:05:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E608637B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sack.dreamhost.com (sack.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CF143F85 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (unknown [67.98.154.9]) by sack.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CB613E23A; Fri, 30 May 2003 09:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:05:49 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Paul Robinson From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030530152423.GE84666@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-Id: <94D0A88E-92B8-11D7-87FC-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: "Gray, David W" cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:05:51 -0000 On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 11:24 AM, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 09:29:35AM -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > >> I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, >> painful. It > > Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail > delivered > direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy of > fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local > machine > for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) > You run into one possible problem here. What if your ISP filters the port incoming? Then you cannot access it remotely. Plus then you have to make sure you keep on top of any possible holes/bugs/spammers. I don't like running services out of my house unless I need to, mostly because I don't have the time. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 10:34:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E768737B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 10:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yorktown.nielsenmedia.com (yorktown.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123DE43FBD for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 10:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David.W.Gray@nielsenmedia.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg10.nmrlan.net (nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.154])h4UHYaCh029756 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 13:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (unverified) by nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com ; Fri, 30 May 2003 13:34:35 -0400 Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 30 May 2003 13:34:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Gray, David W" To: "'Larry Sica'" , Paul Robinson Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:34:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:34:38 -0000 Everything is behind a firewall - the only access is via SSH, or SHTTP. (Oh, and the SSH port is only open to certain IP addresses, like my work, and PDA/Cell connection.) My ISP (RoadRunner) is kind of wierd regarding filtering. The only ports that I *know* they filter is the 6000-6031 range, inbound (no X servers - what, did somebody tell them they were for porn? Setting the server # to 32 at startup worked fine, though.) The mail pickup is via fetchmail. In the old days, I ran elm, and used POP3 for outside connections, but I kept having difficulties with keeping the different mail systems sync'd. Now, its *one* method of access, one set of folders. Period. And it works pretty well for me, notwithstanding the little gotchas running mutt. (And that many years with elm is why I run mutt to begin with, as opposed to an all graphical client.) -----Original Message----- From: Larry Sica [mailto:lomion@mac.com] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:06 PM To: Paul Robinson Cc: Gray, David W; 'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org' Subject: Re: preferred email system On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 11:24 AM, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 09:29:35AM -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > >> I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, >> painful. It > > Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail > delivered > direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy of > fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local > machine > for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) > You run into one possible problem here. What if your ISP filters the port incoming? Then you cannot access it remotely. Plus then you have to make sure you keep on top of any possible holes/bugs/spammers. I don't like running services out of my house unless I need to, mostly because I don't have the time. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 11:25:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6AC37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 11:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BE243F3F for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 11:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 6611 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 18:25:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 30 May 2003 18:25:16 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4UIPEp0088275; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:25:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20030530152423.GE84666@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:25:13 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Paul Robinson cc: "Gray, David W" cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:25:18 -0000 On 30-May-2003 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 09:29:35AM -0400, Gray, David W wrote: > >> I use mutt in a similar setup. It's handling of IMAP is, well, painful. It > > Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail delivered > direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy of > fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local machine > for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) I have found the Cyrus IMAP server quite robust and useful for my needs especially in combination with server-side filtering and sorting. I can easily check my inboxes from BSD, OS X, and Windows if need be. It gives you the most flexibility. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 14:20:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCA837B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C812A43F85 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4ULKTgC089019; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:20:29 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4ULKQB8089018; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:20:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:20:26 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Message-ID: <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , "Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." , Bill Moran , Stephen McKay , chat@freebsd.org References: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> <200305221613.h4MGDNLR016491@dungeon.home> <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared>; from kdk@daleco.biz on Thu, May 29, 2003 at 11:58:59PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran cc: Stephen McKay Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:20:49 -0000 On Thu, May 29, 2003 at 11:58:59PM -0500, Kevin Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > > > Stephen McKay wrote: > > > On Wednesday, 21st May 2003, brian@planetshwoop.com wrote: > > > > > >>On Tue, 20 May 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > >> > > >>>What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about > > >> ^^^^^ > > >> > > >>You commend his grammar and then stick that whammie in there? > > >> > > >>You, not "y'all". Please. > > > > > > No! No! It is merely artistic flair! > > > > > > Once he's established his impeccable grasp of grammar he is > > > permitted to bend it in order to demonstrate his grasp of the > > > vernacular, hence showing he not only knows the Official > > > Grammar, but also a Dialect. It's a solid > > > points scorer. > > > > > > This isn't the same as the 99% of Internet users who believe a > > > valid contraction of "you are" is "your", or the other new > > > percent who know > > > about "you're", but believe it is a possessive pronoun. > > > > > > Salt with :-) as necessary, and enjoy your language! > > > > Are you talking about the people who don't know the difference > > between > > "then" and "than" and think that "sux" is spelled properly? > > > The spelling of this word as "sux" is permissible as a > visual rhyme during religious flame wars, e.g. "Tux sux!" > > Kevin Kinsey > grammar-nazi-in-training Now, now, there's no need for that :-) Unless they've been scared off already, most people respond well to the provision of approachable resources for understanding, and those who don't don't matter. Some years ago, rather than complaining about people putting their feet in their mouths when complaining about other people's grammar, I simply put up a web page for reference. http://www.welearn.com.au/~sue/grammar.html I think it's time to add a comment on the use of "in case". Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. Trained to take all reasonable precautions and to be thorough in their work, they read the whole manual and started doing all Bar so that the system would be protected in case any Foo ever happened. I could only offer praise, even though the system was ruined by their actions. Apparently, when the writer said "in case" he actually meant "if". In other words, he meant don't do Bar unless Foo. Why couldn't he just say "if"? I have no idea. I had to sed the whole documentation directory, replacing every "in case" with "if", reinstall, apologise, and ask them to re-read the manual and start again. -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 14:36:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531FB37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21DC43FA3 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4ULaQb9041142; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h4ULaPqG041141; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:25 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Sue Blake , chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:36:27 -0000 On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 07:20:26AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a > new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case > Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as > advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. Could this be a .us-vs-.au issue? Here in the US, at least, it is common for fire alarms to have instructions like "In case of fire, pull handle." And I interpreted your examples the way the author intended, although I understand the ambiguity. Certainly mothers here will tell their kids to carry sweaters "in case it cools off." -- Matthew Hunt * Inertia is a property http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * of matter. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 14:58:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A8437B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D31043F75 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 14:58:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-172-64.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.172.64]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E462E15482; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:58:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 792E320F12; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:58:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:58:04 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Matthew Hunt Message-ID: <20030530215804.GK61246@over-yonder.net> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:58:09 -0000 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:36:25PM -0700 I heard the voice of Matthew Hunt, and lo! it spake thus: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 07:20:26AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a > > new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case > > Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as > > advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. > > Could this be a .us-vs-.au issue? Here in the US, at least, it is > common for fire alarms to have instructions like "In case of fire, pull > handle." And I interpreted your examples the way the author intended, > although I understand the ambiguity. Certainly mothers here will tell > their kids to carry sweaters "in case it cools off." And actually, I read that as a program: [...] case Foo: bar(); break; :-} -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:06:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1465937B404 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A38E43FE1 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4UM6kgC089497; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:06:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4UM6jNK089496; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:06:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:06:45 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Matthew Hunt Message-ID: <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Matthew Hunt , chat@freebsd.org References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:36:25PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:06:57 -0000 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:36:25PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 07:20:26AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a > > new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case > > Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as > > advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. > > Could this be a .us-vs-.au issue? Possibly. If so, I wonder which way the rest of the world goes. > Here in the US, at least, it is > common for fire alarms to have instructions like "In case of fire, pull > handle." We had signs like that here for a while, and they were strictly speaking correct for our language. The presence of "of" changes the meaning and makes it clear, at least to someone in a calm state who can stop and process language patterns that are not part of every day speech (i.e. only found on emergency signs). Comedians had a field day with people pulling handles, smashing glass windows, etc, just in case the disaster might happen. But I agree, that usage is correct by my language. The phrase "in case of" and the phrase "in case" have very different meanings. > And I interpreted your examples the way the author intended, > although I understand the ambiguity. Certainly mothers here will > tell their kids to carry sweaters "in case it cools off." Yes it's the same here. In Strine that would be: "Take your jumper with you in case it gets cold". The mother expects the kid to pick up the item right away and take it with them, despite the heat. She does not expect them to come home and pick it up later IF it gets cold. No, they take it anyway, IN CASE it gets cold. Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and make a workplace rule that we must follow it. Now if it said If you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. would the meaning be different? I believe so. If it is intended to mean the same thing, what would be the reason for avoiding the word "if"? -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:16:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09CEC37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7904A43F75 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4UMGKb9041745; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h4UMGJGg041744; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:16:19 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Sue Blake , chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:16:21 -0000 On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:06:45AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > > In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > > Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when > an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and > make a workplace rule that we must follow it. I suppose I would read it the same way, although the sentence strikes me as odd for some reason. I can't remember ever coming across a written instruction in the "In case X do Y" format, and evidently there's a good reason people don't write that way. I think it's because of the "In case" being at the start of the sentence instead of the end, but I can't put my finger on it. Do you know the national origin of this documentation? Was it generally satisfactory otherwise? I'm wondering if it was written by a non-native speaker. -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:28:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A216037B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail13.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138EF43FAF for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 20890 invoked from network); 30 May 2003 22:28:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 30 May 2003 22:28:39 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4UMSap0088879; Fri, 30 May 2003 18:28:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:28:36 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Matthew Hunt cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:28:40 -0000 On 30-May-2003 Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:06:45AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > >> Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? >> >> In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. >> >> Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when >> an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and >> make a workplace rule that we must follow it. > > Do you know the national origin of this documentation? Was it generally > satisfactory otherwise? I'm wondering if it was written by a non-native > speaker. It feels that way. That sentence read very odd. Doesn't "feel" like it's correct. Maybe the contrast of "in case" which implies a chance occurrence, and the present tense of "run". I.e. it might sound better as: In case you have run out of memory, . In which case I think it is a grammar error. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:41:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D56337B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06B143F75 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4UMfcgC089859; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:41:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4UMfcIC089858; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:41:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:41:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Matthew Hunt Message-ID: <20030531084138.R33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Matthew Hunt , chat@freebsd.org References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 03:16:19PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:41:47 -0000 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 03:16:19PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:06:45AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > > > > In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > > > > Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when > > an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and > > make a workplace rule that we must follow it. > > I suppose I would read it the same way, although the sentence strikes > me as odd for some reason. I can't remember ever coming across a written > instruction in the "In case X do Y" format, and evidently there's a good > reason people don't write that way. I think it's because of the "In case" > being at the start of the sentence instead of the end, but I can't put my > finger on it. > > Do you know the national origin of this documentation? Was it generally > satisfactory otherwise? I'm wondering if it was written by a non-native > speaker. I'm not sure. His English is otherwise excellent, but it could be his second language, and I'd rather not reveal his identity. Many people in the USA have used this documentation without problems, so it's likely that their language can accept his meaning whereas ours cannot. It is also possible that most people who read the documentation are hacker types who know what it will say before they read it so they don't dwell on the exact meaning of words. FWIW I have seen ambiguous use of "in case" occasionally in our man pages, and quite often in documents written by people whose first language is German. When I read the man pages, because I already have a good understanding, I can guess what to do. If I were floundering then it would be difficult to understand, or confident misinterpretation would easy. Over time I have learned to grit my teeth and guess the intended meaning without complaint, but sometimes my guess has been wrong. I started blaming myself, until the mutiny at work. The correctness or otherwise, and national differences, is something we should sort out for its own sake. However, in the particular case of the use of the documentation I mentioned, we have a clear demonstration of its failure to communicate with even IT-smart users. After all, that is the purpose of documentation. I had a room full of staff politely protesting in unison that it said unambiguously that you must take this precaution. When it comes to documentation, anything that fails to communicate the correct user action is wrong, and nothing else can override that if you want the system to work. -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:45:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77FE37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFFD43F3F for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4UMjob9042195; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h4UMjoZQ042194; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:45:50 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Sue Blake , chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030530224550.GA42158@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531084138.R33085@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030531084138.R33085@welearn.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:45:53 -0000 On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:41:38AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > I'm not sure. His English is otherwise excellent, but it could be > his second language, and I'd rather not reveal his identity. Maybe it's just a personal quirk. One of my old roommates, a native speaker of English and perfectly bright person, would consistently use the word "nevertheless" to mean exactly the opposite of what it should. He would say things like, "I was hungry; nevertheless I ate a snack." > The correctness or otherwise, and national differences, is > something we should sort out for its own sake. Perhaps it is best just to replace "in case" with another choice of phrase. -- Matthew Hunt * Clearly there are more things in the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * heavens than anyone anticipated. -enp From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:46:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C35E37B401; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D2043F93; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4UMjtgC089877; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:45:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4UMjtwZ089876; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:45:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:45:55 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20030531084555.S33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , John Baldwin , Matthew Hunt , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 06:28:36PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: Matthew Hunt cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:46:03 -0000 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 06:28:36PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 30-May-2003 Matthew Hunt wrote: > > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:06:45AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > >> Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > >> > >> In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > >> > >> Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when > >> an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and > >> make a workplace rule that we must follow it. > > > > Do you know the national origin of this documentation? Was it generally > > satisfactory otherwise? I'm wondering if it was written by a non-native > > speaker. > > It feels that way. That sentence read very odd. Doesn't "feel" like > it's correct. Maybe the contrast of "in case" which implies a chance > occurrence, and the present tense of "run". I.e. it might sound better > as: > > In case you have run out of memory, . > > In which case I think it is a grammar error. I would understand that as You might have run out of memory without realising it, so take the precaution of doing . -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:52:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ADFE37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD5343F75 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:52:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4UMqjgC090002; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:52:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4UMqj0H090001; Sat, 31 May 2003 08:52:45 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:52:45 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Matthew Hunt Message-ID: <20030531085245.T33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Matthew Hunt , chat@freebsd.org References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531084138.R33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530224550.GA42158@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030530224550.GA42158@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Fri, May 30, 2003 at 03:45:50PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:52:54 -0000 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 03:45:50PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:41:38AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > I'm not sure. His English is otherwise excellent, but it could be > > his second language, and I'd rather not reveal his identity. > > Maybe it's just a personal quirk. One of my old roommates, a native > speaker of English and perfectly bright person, would consistently use > the word "nevertheless" to mean exactly the opposite of what it should. > He would say things like, "I was hungry; nevertheless I ate a snack." ROFL. I knew someone who would start every third sentence with a superfluous "In one respect..." and never give any hint of another respect. It's fun to watch people trip over their own pretentious frills. > > The correctness or otherwise, and national differences, is > > something we should sort out for its own sake. > > Perhaps it is best just to replace "in case" with another choice of > phrase. Like I said, what stops people from using "if" in the first place? Is there some taboo against two letter words, does it make one feel less learned, or does "if" make it ambiguous for English speakers in other countries? -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 15:59:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F384337B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.103.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DA343F3F for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:59:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (localhost.caltech.edu [127.0.0.1]) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4UMxIb9042453; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.12.9/8.12.3/Submit) id h4UMxIPR042452; Fri, 30 May 2003 15:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:59:18 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Sue Blake , chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030530225918.GA42423@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530221619.GA41668@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531084138.R33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530224550.GA42158@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531085245.T33085@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030531085245.T33085@welearn.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 22:59:20 -0000 On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 08:52:45AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > Like I said, what stops people from using "if" in the first place? > Is there some taboo against two letter words, does it make one > feel less learned, or does "if" make it ambiguous for English > speakers in other countries? I see no problem with it if nobody else does. I think it's just an example of people using a longer phrase where a short one will do. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 16:14:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1C37B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-106-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3583D43F3F for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@crf-consulting.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (clan.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.20]) by crf-consulting.co.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h4UNEhRf025800; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:14:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4UNEgLG055575; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:14:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@clan.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by clan.nothing-going-on.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4UNEf4c055574; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:14:41 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:14:41 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Larry Sica Message-ID: <20030530231441.GD55077@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20030530152423.GE84666@iconoplex.co.uk> <94D0A88E-92B8-11D7-87FC-000393A335A2@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <94D0A88E-92B8-11D7-87FC-000393A335A2@mac.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project cc: "Gray, David W" cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:14:46 -0000 --vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 12:05:49PM -0400, Larry Sica wrote: > >Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail=20 > >delivered > >direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy of > >fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local=20 > >machine > >for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) > > >=20 > You run into one possible problem here. What if your ISP filters the=20 > port incoming? Then you cannot access it remotely. Plus then you have= =20 > to make sure you keep on top of any possible holes/bugs/spammers. I=20 > don't like running services out of my house unless I need to, mostly=20 > because I don't have the time. The simple solution to this is to firewall off all the ports, and configure the app (the IMAP daemon, in this case) to only listen on localhost/127.0.0.1. Then set up SSH port forwarding. I do this, so the schematic looks something like: .---------------------------------. | Laptop | | | | .----------------------------. | | | IMAP client | | | | connects to localhost:7143 | | | `------+---------------------' | | | | | .------v---------------------. | | | ssh daemon | | | | listens on localhost:7143 | | | | forwards to remote:22 | | | `-----------------+----------' | `------------------]|[------------' | <-- Untrusted Internet connection | .------------------]|[------------. | Server | | | | | | .-----------------v----------. | | | ssh daemon | | | | listens on port 22 | | | | forwards to localhost:143 | | | `------+---------------------' | | | | | .------v---------------------. | | | IMAP daemon | | | | Listens on localhost:143 | | | `----------------------------' | `---------------------------------' The beauty of this is that it works for any protocol[1], irrespective of whether or not the protocol has built in security support, or whether or not you want to go through the hassle of configuring it (e.g., most IMAP=20 servers speak SSL, but you need to make sure the client and server=20 interoperate). It also works pretty much anywhere, as long as you can reach port 22 on the Internet facing side of your server[2] -- no IPSec to configure, or=20 other bits to worry about. And it works on any OS that has an SSH port forwarding app, which, apart from the *nix's, includes things like Windows, if that's important to you. With this approach you need precisely one hole in the firewall for inbound traffic (port 22), and you need to trust exactly one daemon, sshd. Remote holes in the other daemons (IMAP, etc) don't matter[3], because the outside world can't get to them to exploit them. N [1] OK, sensibly designed protocols only. Things like FTP in non-PASV mode don't count... [2] For example, you'd be surprised how many of those "Internet access in your hotel room" services will block ports 80 and 110 until=20 you've paid the $20 a day charge, but leave port 22 open... [3] Or at least, don't matter as much. Obviously, if your IMAP server=20 has an exploitable hole that gives the attacker root privs, *and*=20 there's an ssh hole such that untrusted users can log in in order to then exploit the IMAP hole, all bets are off. --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+1+Xhk6gHZCw343URApFcAJwKHUWJLDMAt+TbsQSWD36FKSBUgACfaBWS cEPvkyW9TKooEjsVEFFsv3A= =GeGl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 16:41:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AB637B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com (mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27E9B43F3F for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 16:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin8@t-online.de) Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19LtVC-0002S1-00; Sat, 31 May 2003 01:41:38 +0200 Received: from 217.228.196.114 (320015578311-0001@[217.228.196.114]) by fwd02.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19LtVB-14REdEC; Sat, 31 May 2003 01:41:37 +0200 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 01:42:08 +0200 From: calvin8@t-online.de (Andi Scharfstein) X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <15697888640.20030531014208@myrealbox.com> To: Sue Blake In-Reply-To: <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: 320015578311-0001@t-dialin.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:41:54 -0000 Hi, >> > Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a >> > new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case >> > Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as >> > advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. >> >> Could this be a .us-vs-.au issue? > Possibly. If so, I wonder which way the rest of the world goes. Given this particular instruction, I would have done Bar only if Foo had occurred... but then again, I'm from Germany, and the terms "if" and "in case" translate to "falls" and "Im Falle" or "für den Fall, daß". I think you can easily see the linguistic relatedness. -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:nullpointer@myrealbox.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 17:15:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6414637B404 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125A843FB1 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h4V0ExgC090783; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:14:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4V0EwRm090782; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:14:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:14:58 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Andi Scharfstein Message-ID: <20030531101458.U33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Andi Scharfstein , chat@freebsd.org References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <15697888640.20030531014208@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15697888640.20030531014208@myrealbox.com>; from calvin8@t-online.de on Sat, May 31, 2003 at 01:42:08AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:15:04 -0000 On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 01:42:08AM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > Hi, > > >> > Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a > >> > new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case > >> > Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as > >> > advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. > >> > >> Could this be a .us-vs-.au issue? > > > Possibly. If so, I wonder which way the rest of the world goes. > > Given this particular instruction, I would have done Bar only if Foo > had occurred... but then again, I'm from Germany, and the terms "if" > and "in case" translate to "falls" and "Im Falle" or "für den Fall, > daß". I think you can easily see the linguistic relatedness. If I can remember some tourist Deutsch from decades ago, we might have soemthing like this: English German in the case of im Falle in case foo happens ??? when foo happens (wenn?) if foo happens wenn I don't know if that's right, but if it is, perhaps to a German speaker "if" has too many connotations of "when", so they feel that using "in case" would make it clearer (but it confuses me). But I suspect that it is English speakers who get confused over wenn (myself particularly), not the reverse. How would you handle, in German, "in case" as a precaution, e.g. In case you break a fan belt, take a spare. Would that also use "im Falle"? If so, that might point to the overlapping concepts that cause some of the confusion in translation. Let's take that a bit further. In case you break a fan belt, take a spare. If you break a fan belt, you will have a big problem. When you break a fan belt, replace it with the spare. In the case of breaking a fan belt, you would be pleased have a spare. Does German differentiate between these sentences, using different words? When Grog wakes up he might have a strong opinion on this. -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 20:05:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFC437B404 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A256C43F3F for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4V355xo015544 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (bgp585760bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.198.236]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h4V34BXF018689; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:04:11 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Nik Clayton From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <20030530231441.GD55077@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Message-Id: <8DA36D2D-9314-11D7-8F37-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: "Gray, David W" cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 03:05:10 -0000 On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 12:05:49PM -0400, Larry Sica wrote: >>> Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail >>> delivered >>> direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy >>> of >>> fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local >>> machine >>> for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) >>> >> >> You run into one possible problem here. What if your ISP filters the >> port incoming? Then you cannot access it remotely. Plus then you >> have >> to make sure you keep on top of any possible holes/bugs/spammers. I >> don't like running services out of my house unless I need to, mostly >> because I don't have the time. > > The simple solution to this is to firewall off all the ports, and > configure the app (the IMAP daemon, in this case) to only listen on > localhost/127.0.0.1. Then set up SSH port forwarding. > > I do this, so the schematic looks something like: > Yes you can do this. It comes down to if you have the time or will heh. I have attempted to reduce the systems in my house to as few as possible for various reasons right now. In my case it's easier to just have a hosting provider. What about AUP's? That is the real gotcha I guess. > `---------------------------------' > > The beauty of this is that it works for any protocol[1], irrespective > of > whether or not the protocol has built in security support, or whether > or > not you want to go through the hassle of configuring it (e.g., most > IMAP > servers speak SSL, but you need to make sure the client and server > interoperate). > yes, IMAP w/ ssl is nice. I use it where i can. I wish dotmac did it. > It also works pretty much anywhere, as long as you can reach port 22 on > the Internet facing side of your server[2] -- no IPSec to configure, or > other bits to worry about. And it works on any OS that has an SSH port > forwarding app, which, apart from the *nix's, includes things like > Windows, if that's important to you. > true. This would be trivial from my laptop..a tibook. SSHAgent is an app that does it for me w/o hassle. > With this approach you need precisely one hole in the firewall for > inbound traffic (port 22), and you need to trust exactly one daemon, > sshd. Remote holes in the other daemons (IMAP, etc) don't matter[3], > because the outside world can't get to them to exploit them. > true. I'd use getmail over fetchmail tho. > N > > [1] OK, sensibly designed protocols only. Things like FTP in non-PASV > mode don't count... > heh ok. I agree. > [2] For example, you'd be surprised how many of those "Internet access > in your hotel room" services will block ports 80 and 110 until > you've paid the $20 a day charge, but leave port 22 open... > I've never had that, places i've stayed if they had ethernet in the room didnt block ports unless i paid. > [3] Or at least, don't matter as much. Obviously, if your IMAP server > has an exploitable hole that gives the attacker root privs, *and* > there's an ssh hole such that untrusted users can log in in order > to then exploit the IMAP hole, all bets are off. > Well cascading vuln is bad. I'd still patch as needed just in case. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri May 30 20:10:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DD837B401 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016CA43F85 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 20:10:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjeays2551@rogers.com) Received: from rogers.com ([24.101.253.54]) by fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.comESMTP <20030531031042.ZZMK4541.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@rogers.com>; Fri, 30 May 2003 23:10:42 -0400 Message-ID: <3ED81D36.4030409@rogers.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:10:46 -0400 From: mjeays2551 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH PLAIN at fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [24.101.253.54] using ID at Fri, 30 May 2003 23:10:42 -0400 cc: Matthew Hunt cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 03:10:49 -0000 Sue Blake wrote: >On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:36:25PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > > >>On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 07:20:26AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: >> >> >> >>>Recently I provided some IT staff with the documentation for a >>>new piece of software. Many times it said things like "In case >>>Foo, do Bar". The users (correctly in my view) read that as >>>advice of a precaution worth taking, and took it. >>> >>> >>Could this be a .us-vs-.au issue? >> >> > >Possibly. If so, I wonder which way the rest of the world goes. > > > >>Here in the US, at least, it is >>common for fire alarms to have instructions like "In case of fire, pull >>handle." >> >> > >We had signs like that here for a while, and they were strictly >speaking correct for our language. The presence of "of" changes >the meaning and makes it clear, at least to someone in a calm >state who can stop and process language patterns that are not >part of every day speech (i.e. only found on emergency signs). >Comedians had a field day with people pulling handles, smashing >glass windows, etc, just in case the disaster might happen. >But I agree, that usage is correct by my language. The phrase >"in case of" and the phrase "in case" have very different meanings. > > > >>And I interpreted your examples the way the author intended, >>although I understand the ambiguity. Certainly mothers here will >>tell their kids to carry sweaters "in case it cools off." >> >> > >Yes it's the same here. In Strine that would be: "Take your jumper >with you in case it gets cold". The mother expects the kid to >pick up the item right away and take it with them, despite the heat. >She does not expect them to come home and pick it up later IF >it gets cold. No, they take it anyway, IN CASE it gets cold. > >Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > > In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > >Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when >an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and >make a workplace rule that we must follow it. > >Now if it said > > If you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > >would the meaning be different? I believe so. >If it is intended to mean the same thing, what would be the reason >for avoiding the word "if"? > > > > Perhaps better rephrased as "To avoid running out of memory, don't run all the programs together". Even that sounds strange; so how about "To avoid running out of memory, run the programs separately". From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 00:12:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACE937B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CBE43F93 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfk0a.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.208.10] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19M0Xe-00057b-00; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:12:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3ED85595.CEE0420B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:11:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43ac807e07521ff673bb9cc84aca57771548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Matthew Hunt cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 07:12:52 -0000 Sue Blake wrote: > Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > > In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > > Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when > an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and > make a workplace rule that we must follow it. I think it's telling me not to use "crunchgen". 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 06:07:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC6B37B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 06:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout10.sul.t-online.com (mailout10.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1B943F85 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 06:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin8@t-online.de) Received: from fwd09.sul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19M64j-0007Zb-00; Sat, 31 May 2003 15:07:09 +0200 Received: from 80.130.242.16 (320015578311-0001@[80.130.242.16]) by fwd09.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19M64a-1skdRAC; Sat, 31 May 2003 15:07:00 +0200 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 15:08:10 +0200 From: calvin8@t-online.de (Andi Scharfstein) X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <90146541484.20030531150810@myrealbox.com> To: Sue Blake In-Reply-To: <20030531101458.U33085@welearn.com.au> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <15697888640.20030531014208@myrealbox.com> <20030531101458.U33085@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: 320015578311-0001@t-dialin.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:07:22 -0000 Hi, > If I can remember some tourist Deutsch from decades ago, > we might have soemthing like this: > English German > in the case of im Falle Yes. > in case foo happens ??? "Wenn Foo passiert" / "Im Falle (von) Foo" > when foo happens (wenn?) Yes. "Wenn Foo passiert". Indeed, these two are used interchangeably. > if foo happens wenn No, that's "Falls Foo passiert". Like I wrote, "if" translates to "falls", "when" to "wenn". > I don't know if that's right, but if it is, perhaps to a German > speaker "if" has too many connotations of "when", so they feel > that using "in case" would make it clearer (but it confuses me). I don't think so... I think it's more important to note the correlation between "if" and "in case". You see, basically our "if" is just a shorter form of our "in case", which I think should account for this phenomenon. > But I suspect that it is English speakers who get confused over > wenn (myself particularly), not the reverse. Nope, it's just a "when". No ambiguities. > How would you handle, in German, "in case" as a precaution, e.g. > In case you break a fan belt, take a spare. Hmm... somehow, that sentence does not evoke the same feeling as yesterday's example. To be perfectly honest, I think I would understand that one as a precautionary message. So, I don't think we would say it like that, although that is merely my opinion and other Germans might feel otherwise. I would use a construct like "Take a spare fan belt so it won't matter if you break one". > Would that also use "im Falle"? If so, that might point to > the overlapping concepts that cause some of the confusion > in translation. It might use "im Falle", if it wasn't a precaution. > Let's take that a bit further. > In case you break a fan belt, take a spare. Anyway, with the intended meaning: "Falls dein Gebläseriemen kaputtgeht, nimm einen Ersatz(riemen)." > If you break a fan belt, you will have a big problem. "Falls dein Gebläseriemen kaputtgeht, wirst du ein großes Problem haben." would be verbatim, but I would rather say "Wenn dein Gebläseriemen kaputtgeht, hast du ein großes Problem." > When you break a fan belt, replace it with the spare. "Wenn dein Gebläseriemen kaputtgeht, ersetze ihn mit einem Ersatz(riemen)." > In the case of breaking a fan belt, you would be pleased have a spare. "Im Falle eines Kaputtgehens eines Gebläseriemens wärst du erfreut, einen Ersatz(riemen) zu haben." > Does German differentiate between these sentences, using different words? You decide... I also recommend, for reference, http://dict.leo.org Very good online translator. > When Grog wakes up he might have a strong opinion on this. Grog? -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:nullpointer@myrealbox.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 06:24:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1E037B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 06:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C23F43F85 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 06:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jstryker@petml.com) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D637612E8 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:24:29 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 967A819076; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jason Stryker" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 05:24:29 -0800 X-Epoch: 1054387469 X-Sasl-enc: PLl30D5Kzruulu/OO/pMOA Message-Id: <20030531132429.967A819076@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> Subject: Something needs to change in FreeBSD land X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:24:32 -0000 Gentlemen, I hope we haven't already forgotten when Matt Dillon's commit bit was removed. Something needs to change in the way politics are handled in FreeBSD. Let me quote Chris G Demetriou for a moment: "When i think of "politics," i think of Jordan Hubbard, flat out lying about what's in, or going to be in, FreeBSD, or what the system can do, or what's wrong with the system. (worth noting: I've come to understand Kolstad, even see him as a reasonable person. I see jordan as a _liar_, period.) _that's_ not the game that we, or i, play." Even thought Jordan is now a non-player in the core team, others have (unfortunately) been following his style. So we actually have two problems here: a) core doesn't work as it should. b) a pretty significant number of committers not only don't do anything useful but make it hard for others to work. We essentially have extremely talented people willing to contribute to the community, e.g. Kris, Joe Marcus, knu@, tobez@, ru@, alane@, and many others I forget now. Then we have a second class of committers, people who, while talented, are a total pain in the ass to deal with: obrien, phk, bosko, dougb, des. Then we have people who don't contribute anything and love to flame: billf, alfred, Michael Shitsack (the one who, together with Bill Fuckerola, made asmodai resign), and some others. At last we have the clueless morons, people with no clue that no one knows why they're there: Scott 'top posting' Long and Hiten 'irc howto' Pandya. If you don't want your nice FreeBSD to turn into a crap, second class OS, something needs to be done. I myself am already running NetBSD and OpenBSD only, and encourage you to do the same. FreeBSD tries to be the be all end all nowadays, trying to play catch up with NetBSD on portability (nowhere near when it comes to clean code) and with OpenBSD on security, while trying to get some media attention by selling itself as Linux/GNU equivalent. Thank you. -- Jason Stryker jstryker@petml.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - I mean, what is it about a decent email service? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 07:37:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA77B37B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7C343F85 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h4VEaxgC099101 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:36:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h4VEawIm099100 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:36:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 00:36:58 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030601003658.D33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , chat@freebsd.org References: <20030531132429.967A819076@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20030531132429.967A819076@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com>; from jstryker@petml.com on Sat, May 31, 2003 at 05:24:29AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 Subject: Re: Something needs to change in FreeBSD land X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:37:04 -0000 On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 05:24:29AM -0800, Jason Stryker wrote: > Gentlemen, Oops, sorry, obviously this shamelss troll wasn't meant for my eyes. -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 07:40:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813CC37B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D949343F3F for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 07:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A143F4F; Sat, 31 May 2003 10:40:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Sue Blake Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:40:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3ED8869C.4925.BE29E922@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030601003658.D33085@welearn.com.au> References: <20030531132429.967A819076@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com>; from jstryker@petml.com on Sat, May 31, 2003 at 05:24:29AM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Something needs to change in FreeBSD land X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:40:30 -0000 On 1 Jun 2003 at 0:36, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 05:24:29AM -0800, Jason Stryker wrote: > > > Gentlemen, > > Oops, sorry, obviously this shamelss troll wasn't meant for my eyes. Yes. Sue, what were you thinking!? Reading stuff like that. It's disgusting. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 09:48:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2075B37B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6531143FA3 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:48:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc52) with ESMTP id <2003053116483505200r2bs3e>; Sat, 31 May 2003 16:48:35 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h4VGmmKc048866; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h4VGmXk5048863; Sat, 31 May 2003 09:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Sue Blake References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 31 May 2003 09:48:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: Lines: 57 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Matthew Hunt cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 16:48:38 -0000 Sue Blake writes: > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:36:25PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: ... > > Here in the US, at least, it is > > common for fire alarms to have instructions like "In case of fire, pull > > handle." > > We had signs like that here for a while, and they were strictly > speaking correct for our language. The presence of "of" changes > the meaning and makes it clear, at least to someone in a calm > state who can stop and process language patterns that are not > part of every day speech (i.e. only found on emergency signs). > Comedians had a field day with people pulling handles, smashing > glass windows, etc, just in case the disaster might happen. > But I agree, that usage is correct by my language. The phrase > "in case of" and the phrase "in case" have very different meanings. For "in case", my dictionary has "If it happens that; if.", but I'm sure that that is an incomplete definition. I suppose that "in case" is a long-accepted shortening of "in the case" or "in a case" and that "in case X, do Y" is a shortening of "in the/a case of X happening, do Y". This shortening can explain the above warning, but another explanation is that it is a shortening of "In cases of fire", which seems strictly correct to me. > Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > > In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. This, and your original example, are not grammatically wrong, and are fully sensical language. The problem is with the meaning that the language conveys. (One hopes that it isn't the meaning the author meant to convey, but that's a different issue.) This is partly because we understand "case" here to mean "an instance of a general case". The sentence is telling one what to do in a particular instance (ie, when something happens), and that has a couple of problems. 1) When the case happens, the advice doesn't help with this instance; there might not even be a next one for which to use the advice. 2) The advice is weasily; it tells you what not to do, instead of what to do, so that running no programs follows the advice without solving the problem. "In case you run out of memory, cry." has a much better "ring" to my ear. The sentences clearly need complete rewriting. Usually, one can guess the intended meaning of of bad writing, but it takes extra effort and it leaves one wondering if one guessed right. Writers should think of their readers more and at least read what they have written and do a bit of self-editing of the worst parts. > Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when > an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and > make a workplace rule that we must follow it. How one reads something depends a lot on one's tolerance and imagination, but we should use little of either when discussing the meaning of some writing. The examples are not precautions, as written, even if everyone is clever enough to find them so. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 18:40:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F1A37B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D607543FA3 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 18:40:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@welearn.com.au) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h511dqgC005534; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:39:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h511dmwm005533; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:39:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 11:39:48 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , "Gary W. Swearingen" , Matthew Hunt , chat@freebsd.org References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@attbi.com on Sat, May 31, 2003 at 09:48:33AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: E9A3 7B97 C563 DBB1 979E BC04 D2A2 9DA3 1274 7885 cc: Matthew Hunt cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 01:40:31 -0000 Gary, I'm going to strongly disagree with much you said, not to put you down, but demonstrating how strongly the usage is viewed here. On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 09:48:33AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Sue Blake writes: > > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 02:36:25PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > ... > > > Here in the US, at least, it is > > > common for fire alarms to have instructions like "In case of fire, pull > > > handle." > > > > We had signs like that here for a while, and they were strictly > > speaking correct for our language. The presence of "of" changes > > the meaning and makes it clear, at least to someone in a calm > > state who can stop and process language patterns that are not > > part of every day speech (i.e. only found on emergency signs). > > Comedians had a field day with people pulling handles, smashing > > glass windows, etc, just in case the disaster might happen. > > But I agree, that usage is correct by my language. The phrase > > "in case of" and the phrase "in case" have very different meanings. > > For "in case", my dictionary has "If it happens that; if.", but I'm > sure that that is an incomplete definition. In my language, that is quite wrong. I expect my dictionary to support my view, but if it does not I would still say it is wrong because it conflicts with how my people use language. It conflicts in such a way that people are misled, as in the real world example I gave, which makes it unallowable to use those words with that meaning in documentation that intends to cause people to take a particular action or not. > I suppose that "in case" is a long-accepted shortening of "in the case" > or "in a case" and that "in case X, do Y" is a shortening of "in the/a > case of X happening, do Y". This shortening can explain the above > warning, but another explanation is that it is a shortening of "In > cases of fire", which seems strictly correct to me. That seems quite correct to me too, but in my view you supposed wrong. "In the case of" is shortened to "in case OF", and similarly the phrase "in cases where" holds up specific types of cases for consideration. On the other hand, "in case" _by_itself_ is very different indeed. It is one of those phrases that has obtained its own unique meaning, mostly used in the form "In case..., do ...", sometimes "Do ... in case ...", and always used to state a precaution. Students sometimes mistakenly believe it to be a single word "incase" because in their minds it is so logically distinct from "in case of". In fact, if the first words of a sentence are "In case" then I can be pretty sure that it's a precaution, except for somtimes when it is followed by "of" making an entirely different construction. > > Tell me, how would you follow the following (hypothetical) instruction? > > > > In case you run out of memory, don't run all of the programs together. > > This, and your original example, are not grammatically wrong, and are > fully sensical language. The problem is with the meaning that the > language conveys. (One hopes that it isn't the meaning the author meant > to convey, but that's a different issue.) This is partly because we > understand "case" here to mean "an instance of a general case". That's interesting. It does not convey the slightest hint of that meaning to me. The phrase "In case you..." is unambigously the beginning of a precaution, no doubt in my mind there, no leeway. > The sentence is telling one what to do in a particular instance > (ie, when something happens), and that has a couple of problems. > 1) When the case happens, the advice doesn't help with this > instance; there might not even be a next one for which to use the > advice. 2) The advice is weasily; it tells you what not to do, > instead of what to do, so that running no programs follows the > advice without solving the problem. "In case you run out of memory, > cry." has a much better "ring" to my ear. The sentences clearly > need complete rewriting. The sentences all sound fine to me, and their meaning is crystal clear. I am left with no doubt, and confident that I understand and know how to follow the advice that each of these "case" sentences offers. Where we have the problem is that what I know the sentence told me, is the opposite of what other people say it means. That would seem to make particular ways of using "case" unsuitable for documentation. > Usually, one can guess the intended meaning of of bad writing, but it > takes extra effort and it leaves one wondering if one guessed right. Usually that is true because usually one is reading something that is written close to one's level of understanding. In the case of technical documentation, it is going to be read by people who are floundering with the concepts. They have no hope of working out the intended meaning. In fact, if an ambiguity can be squeezed in anywhere, they will find a way. Here we are talking about a phrase that strikes the readers as UNambiguous, and they do not understand the subject matter well enough to spot the wrong instruction because they're only up to the stage of reading the manual. > Writers should think of their readers more and at least read what they > have written and do a bit of self-editing of the worst parts. Absolutely. But I don't think the best writer in the world could catch all of their own writing problems. Ideally, after basic typo and techo corrections, all writing would be reviewed by a realistic sample of the kinds of people who will be reading and depending on the document. Furthermore, that review needs to be conducted hands-on, in order to catch "perfectly clear" 180 degree misunderstandings by their practical outcomes. Of course the opportunity to do that is rare and it's costly and time consuming so it's not very practical, that's why it is important to explore things like the misunderstanding surrounding "in case" and try to predict outcomes. There are some cases where the opportunity arises to newbie-test documentation. One example is CFBSD which has been peer reviewed as well as having most of its content laboriously worked through by newbies over a period of some years. The opportunity was there, and the author was humble enough to be open to advice from all. Another example is the availability of a little mob of FreeBSD-newbies who generally respond well to emails requesting testing of a finished and technically correct tutorial document or manual. > > Is it something to do as a precaution, or a response to take when > > an unlikely situation occurs? I would read it as a precaution and > > make a workplace rule that we must follow it. > > How one reads something depends a lot on one's tolerance and > imagination, but we should use little of either when discussing > the meaning of some writing. For general reading, yes. People who need to study a manual cannot offer tolerance or imagination at that time. > The examples are not precautions, > as written, even if everyone is clever enough to find them so. I quite disagree. The "In case you..." sentences are all properly constructed precautions, there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever. That we disagree does not mean that one of us is wrong. It means that the sentences have conflicting unambigous meanings to different people, and perhaps ambiguity to some people. I was prepared to consider that it might be a lapse in my education until I tried presenting the opposite view (in case means if) to a workplace and got unanimous confident disagreement and system damage as a result. Even when I explained what the author meant, the users were unable to cope with the conflict. My conclusion is that in documentation, "in case" on its own (without "in case of") cannot be used to mean anything like "if". In other words, If: In any case where the word "if" would suffice, "if" must be used rather than "in case" in order to convey the "if" meaning. Cases: It is fine to talk about cases by using "in (the) case of", "in cases where/when", or "in the ... case". Precaution: Sentences of the form "In case X do (not) Y" or "Do (not) Y in case X" will be understood unambiguously as precautions, at least in some parts of the world. In particular, a sentence beginning "In case you..." is likely to be understood as a precaution. If there is any native Aussie, Kiwi, or Pom who disagrees with me, please do speak up. -- Regards, -*Sue*- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 19:12:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A251A37B405 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 19:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout07.sul.t-online.com (mailout07.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0A643FAF for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 19:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin8@t-online.de) Received: from fwd09.sul.t-online.de by mailout07.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19MIKG-0006cK-00; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:12:00 +0200 Received: from 80.130.242.16 (320015578311-0001@[80.130.242.16]) by fwd09.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19MIK6-1gBsvoC; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:11:50 +0200 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:13:29 +0200 From: calvin8@t-online.de (Andi Scharfstein) X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> To: Sue Blake In-Reply-To: <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 320015578311-0001@t-dialin.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 02:12:12 -0000 Hi, > On the other hand, "in case" _by_itself_ is very different indeed. > It is one of those phrases that has obtained its own unique meaning, > mostly used in the form "In case..., do ...", sometimes "Do ... in > case ...", and always used to state a precaution. [...] I think that this might pose an explanation as to why people who learned English only as a second language might have problems with that construction. I, for one, didn't know of said distinction until encountering this thread. I also spoke with a few people today, two of which had spent a year in the US. They all agreed that the meaning of "In case X, do Y" (that's what I asked, verbatim) was "If X occurs, do Y", so it's not just me. -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:nullpointer@myrealbox.com