From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 31 23:07:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0972837B401 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 23:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts21.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61EA43FA3 for ; Sat, 31 May 2003 23:07:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from t.vanderhoek@utoronto.ca) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([64.231.120.119]) by tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20030601060734.SKES15343.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 02:07:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.nowhere (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.nowhere (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h5167anm034275; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 02:07:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.nowhere) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h5167X5F034272; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 02:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 02:07:33 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Andi Scharfstein Message-ID: <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 06:07:38 -0000 On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 04:13:29AM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: [...] > encountering this thread. I also spoke with a few people today, two of > which had spent a year in the US. They all agreed that the meaning of > "In case X, do Y" (that's what I asked, verbatim) was "If X occurs, do > Y", so it's not just me. You need to be careful how you ask that question. I, as a native North American English speaker, would have to accept both meanings as almost equally valid. However, depending on how you asked the question, I might not give that as my answer... The "In case of ..." construct usually means "If ..., then ...". If you first seeded the conversation by giving an example of "In case of ...", then I would probably not notice any distinction between the "In case of ..." and the "In case ..." (unless you really pressed the point). If you first seeded the conversation by giving an example such as "Keep a fire extinguisher by the stove in case there is a fire" and then asked me to distinguish between "In case of ..." and "In case ...", then I would probably give you a perplexed look, think for a couple minutes, and then give you the answer from my first paragraph. I would accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic and semantically equivalent: (1) In case there is an explosion, call the police. (2) In case of an explosion, call the police. But I would also accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic and semantically equivalent: (3) In case there is an explosion, call the police. (4) Call the police in case there is an explosion. Unless you took pains to explain it to me, it would be a while until I realized that (1) and (2) aren't exactly semantically equivalent due to the ambiguity in (1). Similarly for (3) and (4) with the ambiguity in (3). In the absence at all of any context or semantic interpretation, I would tend slightly towards Sue's point of view and slightly agree with her. But I wouldn't call either usage much more idiomatic than the other. English is kinda neat in that you can mix the phrases around in almost any order and still have a semantically equivalent sentence: (5) By the stove keep a fire extinguisher in case there is a fire. (6) Keep a fire extinguisher by the stove in case there is a fire. (7) In case there is a fire, keep a fire extinguisher by the stove. (8) In case there is a fire, by the stove keep a fire extinguisher. Of course, (5) and (8) are less idiomatic, but I will accept them in everyday speach. The "In case ..." meaning "If ..., then ..." must be kept at the start of the sentence. (9) In case she starts choking, give her the Heimlech maneouver. (10) In case of her chocking, give her the Heimlech maneouver. (11) *Give her the Heimlech meaneouver in case she starts choking. (12) *Give her the Heimlech maneouver in case of her choking. The sentence (11) and (12) do really parlay the desired meaning. I guess I might accept (11) in everyday speech, even though I marked it with an asterisk. I'm pretty sure that I would not accept (12) in everyday speech. You could convince to accept (11), though, so maybe an asterisk there isn't appropriate. Hmm.... Ya, the more I think about it... Even in this case (11) is possibly acceptable and definitely ambiguous. Only (12) would not be acceptable to me in either collequial speech or formal writing. It can get trickier. (13) In the case that you run out of memory, do not run all your programs at once. (14) In case of you running out of memory, do not run all your programs at once. (15) In case that you run out of memory, do not run all your programs at once. The sentence (13) is unambiguously an "If ..., then ..." meaning. The sentence (14) is ambiguous. However, (14) is not very idiomatic, so perhaps it's unfair to include it here. And (15) is almost an unambiguous precautionary meaning. NOTE that the only difference between (13) and (15) is an extra qualifier before "case" to prevent it from being indeterminate. Of course, taking (15) and swapping "So" in place of "In case" makes it less wordy, more idiomatic (in collequial speech, anyways), and completely unambiguous. Mind you, the "that" in (15) is yucky, since the word "that" can be inserted almost anywhere into speech and has almost no useful semantic meaning. In this case, I think (that) it does bias the sentence slightly further towards a precautionary meaning, though. In case that my head starts to hurt, I will now stop thinking and writing about this. ;-) In the case that my head starts to hurt, I will definitely stop thinking and writing about this. -- There are two types of tasks in life: those which become less urgent as time passes, and those which become more urgent. Rotating one's .signature file is a task of the latter type. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 04:26:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BA137B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout07.sul.t-online.com (mailout07.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C9743FE1 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin8@t-online.de) Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout07.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19MQxg-0003Zl-0E; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 13:25:16 +0200 Received: from 80.130.242.16 (320015578311-0001@[80.130.242.16]) by fwd06.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19MQxY-0VjlyqC; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 13:25:08 +0200 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 13:25:41 +0200 From: calvin8@t-online.de (Andi Scharfstein) X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <163227373843.20030601132541@myrealbox.com> To: Tim Vanderhoek In-Reply-To: <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 320015578311-0001@t-dialin.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andi Scharfstein List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 11:26:47 -0000 Hi, > On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 04:13:29AM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > [...] >> encountering this thread. I also spoke with a few people today, two of >> which had spent a year in the US. They all agreed that the meaning of >> "In case X, do Y" (that's what I asked, verbatim) was "If X occurs, do >> Y", so it's not just me. > You need to be careful how you ask that question. I, as a native North > American English speaker, would have to accept both meanings as almost > equally valid. However, depending on how you asked the question, I > might not give that as my answer... Well, that certainly was a well thought-out and detailed explanation, to which I can only say that I fully agree. Only, like I said, I didn't know about the distinction you both pointed out prior to encountering this thread, so there's your problem. About biasing people towards what I want to hear from them: All I asked them was to translate the above quote. As in: "We have a discussion on a ML I'm on, I'd like to hear your opinion about it. How would you translate 'In case X, do Y' to German?" The reason I chose that phrase was that it was the original one that set off this discussion. On an afterthought, I should also have asked them about the various cases you pointed out. Oh well. -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:nullpointer@myrealbox.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 07:28:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3136B37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from glow-gallery.com (glow-gallery.com [217.160.139.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC9B43FA3 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:27:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cgi-mailer-bounces-72329360@kundenserver.de) X-Complaints-To: abuse@kundenserver.de X-Sender-Info: 72329360@infongd2334 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 16:27:24 +0200 Precedence: bulk To: chat@freebsd.org From: Glow Gallery Message-Id: Subject: Welcome to Glow Gallery! 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Make sure that your message is addressed to sparklist-confirm-10983079Y@atomic.sparklist.com To unsubscribe immediately, you send an email message to leave-eftnews_innovations-10983079Y@atomic.sparklist.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 07:30:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F3137B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jcafe.net (mail.jcafe.net [161.58.178.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03AE843F75 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 07:29:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfs-admin@japanfs.org) Received: from japanfs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.jcafe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F46C1A04FF for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 23:29:06 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 23:29:06 +0900 From: jfs-admin@japanfs.org To: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <200306012329.FMLAAA26019.jfs@japanfs.org> References: <20030601142904.F19581A0005@mail.jcafe.net> X-MLServer: fml [fml 4.0 STABLE (20010509/4.0.1_BETA)](fml commands only mode) X-ML-Info: If you have a question, send e-mail with the body "help" (without quotes) to the address jfs-ctl@japanfs.org; help= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp List-Software: fml [fml 4.0 STABLE (20010509/4.0.1_BETA)] List-Owner: Subject: Welcome to our (jfs ML) You are added automatically X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jfs-ctl@japanfs.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 14:30:28 -0000 Welcome to the Japan for Sustainability newsletter! 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Or send your comments to:info@japanfs.org Junko Edahiro Hiroyuki Tada Japan for Sustainability http://www.japanfs.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 08:08:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A574537B413 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mini.pair.com (mini.pair.com [209.68.1.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C85643FDD for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from treecard@mini.pair.com) Received: (qmail 28146 invoked by uid 3234); 1 Jun 2003 15:07:08 -0000 Date: 1 Jun 2003 15:07:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20030601150708.28144.qmail@mini.pair.com> To: chat@freebsd.org References: <20030601150708.28135.qmail@mini.pair.com> In-Reply-To: <20030601150708.28135.qmail@mini.pair.com> Precedence: junk X-Loop: newsletter@treecardgames.com From: TreeCardGames.com Subject: SOLSUITE - Solitaire Card Games Suite - Newsletter X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 15:08:30 -0000 SolSuite 2003 Newsletter #65 http://www.solsuite.com I N D E X : 1. SolSuite 2003's NEW v14.2 has arrived! (May 10, 2003) 2. Customers' Satisfaction 3. SIAF People's Choice Award 2003 ____________________________________________________ 1. S O L S U I T E 2 0 0 3's N E W v14.2 H A S A R R I V E D ! ____________________________________________________ Download SolSuite 2003's new v14.2 http://www.solsuite.com/ver1420.htm NEW GAMES! SolSuite 2003's version 14.2 includes the following 2 new games (362 games in all): - Good Measure Two Decks: Baker's Dozen type [time: Medium; difficulty level: Medium; skill level: Moderate; chance of winning: about 1 in 5] - Rows of Four: Two-Deck game type [time: Medium; difficulty level: Medium; skill level: Mostly Skill; chance of winning: about 1 in 4] ===> Download SolSuite 2003's NEW v14.2 <=== http://www.solsuite.com/ver1420.htm ===> Download SolSuite 2003's NEW v14.2 <=== _____________________________________ 2. C U S T O M E R S' S A T I S F A C T I O N _____________________________________ The following are some examples of the most recent messages we have received: * Trudy Brotchie - United Kingdom - said: "Very many thanks for the download. What a surprise to receive yet two more card games. We are absolutely in love with SolSuite Card Games. One may refer to the frequency of our playing as "home gambling on a large scale - without loss of money or interest". Thank you for producing such enjoyable and stimulating (and sometimes mind-boggling) solitaires." * Kathleen L. Hanson - U.S. - said: "SolSuite it's a great software and you have a great site for games and entertainment also. I voted for you." _____________________________________ 3. S I A F People's Choice A W A R D 2003 _____________________________________ SolSuite 2003: Solitaire Card Games Suite" has been nominated for SIAF People's Choice Award 2003. Please vote for: SolSuite 2003 - Solitaire Card Games Suite (you can copy (Ctrl+C) and paste (Ctrl+V)) by linking to SIAF People's Choice Award: http://www.siafvoting.com After registering you'll be sent an email with a link that will allow you to vote. If you like our software, we would appreciate your vote! Thank You for your Help! ___________________________________________________ If you think someone else would benefit from this information, please invite them to subscribe at: http://www.solsuite.com/newsletter.htm To remove your subscription to this newsletter please link to: http://www.solsuite.com/unsubscribe.htm To change your email address please link to: http://www.solsuite.com/change_address.htm Looking forward to hearing from you. TreeCardGames.com http://www.solsuite.com/support.htm ________________________________________ ===> Download SolSuite 2003's NEW v14.2 <=== http://www.solsuite.com/ver1420.htm ===> Download SolSuite 2003's NEW v14.2 <=== ________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 08:53:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5431B37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raq1.connectunion.com (raq1.connectunion.com [64.42.221.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E16943FEC for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:51:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-corus@www.cep1900.ca) Received: (from mail@localhost) by raq1.connectunion.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) id h51Dm6600662; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:48:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:48:06 -0500 Message-Id: <200306011348.h51Dm6600662@raq1.connectunion.com> To: chat@freebsd.org From: Majordomo@www.cep1900.ca Subject: Welcome to corus X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Majordomo@www.cep1900.ca List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 15:53:02 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 15:53:02 -0000 -- Welcome to the corus mailing list! 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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 09:10:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A492337B401; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0F343F3F; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jstryker@petml.com) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283DD60DD7; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:27:44 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2435C60DE6; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jason Stryker" To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:27:44 -0800 X-Epoch: 1054470464 X-Sasl-enc: ovS1qCIPkBEsF5uZ3ldR1A Message-Id: <20030601122744.2435C60DE6@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe {current,chat}@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:10:08 -0000 __ _ / _|_ _ ___| | __ | |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | _| |_| | (__| < |_| \__,_|\___|_|\_\ _ _ _ __ _ _| | | | '_ \| | | | | | | |_) | |_| | | | | .__/ \__,_|_|_| |_| _ _ | |__ ___ _ __ _ __ (_)_ __ __ _ | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \| '_ \| | '_ \ / _` | | | | | __/ | | | | | | | | | | (_| | |_| |_|\___|_| |_|_| |_|_|_| |_|\__, | |___/ _ | | ____ _ _ __ ___ _ __ | |/ / _` | '_ ` _ \| '_ \ | < (_| | | | | | | |_) | |_|\_\__,_|_| |_| |_| .__/ |_| This message released under the Fuck Fumerola License -- Jason Stryker jstryker@petml.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 09:10:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7BE37B401; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9981C43F93; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jstryker@petml.com) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7E163BE7; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:28:11 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 3633E63E25; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jason Stryker" To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:28:11 -0800 X-Epoch: 1054470491 X-Sasl-enc: A0cohRtzOT/VCic1YaJztg Message-Id: <20030601122811.3633E63E25@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe {current,chat}@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:10:08 -0000 __ _ / _|_ _ ___| | __ | |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | _| |_| | (__| < |_| \__,_|\___|_|\_\ _ _ _ __ _ _| | | | '_ \| | | | | | | |_) | |_| | | | | .__/ \__,_|_|_| |_| _ _ | |__ ___ _ __ _ __ (_)_ __ __ _ | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \| '_ \| | '_ \ / _` | | | | | __/ | | | | | | | | | | (_| | |_| |_|\___|_| |_|_| |_|_|_| |_|\__, | |___/ _ | | ____ _ _ __ ___ _ __ | |/ / _` | '_ ` _ \| '_ \ | < (_| | | | | | | |_) | |_|\_\__,_|_| |_| |_| .__/ |_| This message released under the Fuck Fumerola License -- Jason Stryker jstryker@petml.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 09:10:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46AB37B401; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE8F43F3F; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jstryker@petml.com) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CAB4BA4E; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:27:19 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 47E0C2554A; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jason Stryker" To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:27:18 -0800 X-Epoch: 1054470439 X-Sasl-enc: CpN9hu8dyIJvUu2ec4YcCw Message-Id: <20030601122718.47E0C2554A@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe {current,chat}@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:10:09 -0000 __ _ / _|_ _ ___| | __ | |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | _| |_| | (__| < |_| \__,_|\___|_|\_\ _ _ _ __ _ _| | | | '_ \| | | | | | | |_) | |_| | | | | .__/ \__,_|_|_| |_| _ _ | |__ ___ _ __ _ __ (_)_ __ __ _ | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \| '_ \| | '_ \ / _` | | | | | __/ | | | | | | | | | | (_| | |_| |_|\___|_| |_|_| |_|_|_| |_|\__, | |___/ _ | | ____ _ _ __ ___ _ __ | |/ / _` | '_ ` _ \| '_ \ | < (_| | | | | | | |_) | |_|\_\__,_|_| |_| |_| .__/ |_| This message released under the Fuck Fumerola License -- Jason Stryker jstryker@petml.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 09:10:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C2F37B401; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB4B43F3F; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jstryker@petml.com) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835D16508F; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:28:49 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 7C81D65099; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jason Stryker" To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:28:49 -0800 X-Epoch: 1054470529 X-Sasl-enc: K5RRq1VF80Ehz/16VHTy/g Message-Id: <20030601122849.7C81D65099@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe {current,chat}@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:10:10 -0000 __ _ / _|_ _ ___| | __ | |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | _| |_| | (__| < |_| \__,_|\___|_|\_\ _ _ _ __ _ _| | | | '_ \| | | | | | | |_) | |_| | | | | .__/ \__,_|_|_| |_| _ _ | |__ ___ _ __ _ __ (_)_ __ __ _ | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \| '_ \| | '_ \ / _` | | | | | __/ | | | | | | | | | | (_| | |_| |_|\___|_| |_|_| |_|_|_| |_|\__, | |___/ _ | | ____ _ _ __ ___ _ __ | |/ / _` | '_ ` _ \| '_ \ | < (_| | | | | | | |_) | |_|\_\__,_|_| |_| |_| .__/ |_| This message released under the Fuck Fumerola License -- Jason Stryker jstryker@petml.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 09:26:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFA237B401; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (ny2.fastmail.fm [66.111.4.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D36343FA3; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jstryker@petml.com) Received: from smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (server2.internal [10.202.2.133]) by server2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B72664EB9; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1] helo=smtp.us2.messagingengine.com) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2003 08:29:29 -0400 Received: by smtp.us2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 865BC64964; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 08:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Jason Stryker" To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 04:29:29 -0800 X-Epoch: 1054470569 X-Sasl-enc: GVq4G0ikdem6A2haV8C/Jw Message-Id: <20030601122929.865BC64964@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe {current,chat}@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 16:26:54 -0000 __ _ / _|_ _ ___| | __ | |_| | | |/ __| |/ / | _| |_| | (__| < |_| \__,_|\___|_|\_\ _ _ _ __ _ _| | | | '_ \| | | | | | | |_) | |_| | | | | .__/ \__,_|_|_| |_| _ _ | |__ ___ _ __ _ __ (_)_ __ __ _ | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \| '_ \| | '_ \ / _` | | | | | __/ | | | | | | | | | | (_| | |_| |_|\___|_| |_|_| |_|_|_| |_|\__, | |___/ _ | | ____ _ _ __ ___ _ __ | |/ / _` | '_ ` _ \| '_ \ | < (_| | | | | | | |_) | |_|\_\__,_|_| |_| |_| .__/ |_| This message released under the Fuck Fumerola License -- Jason Stryker jstryker@petml.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 11:50:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03B637B401 for ; 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With best wishes, Pat Carrington, Editor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 1 17:56:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4A837B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 17:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22C243F85 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 17:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003060200562500200b6utle>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:56:25 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h520uGKc072107; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 17:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h520tvgv072102; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 17:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Tim Vanderhoek References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Jun 2003 17:55:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030601060733.GA31655@turquoise> Message-ID: Lines: 88 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 00:56:27 -0000 Tim Vanderhoek writes: > On Sun, Jun 01, 2003 at 04:13:29AM +0200, Andi Scharfstein wrote: > [...] > > encountering this thread. I also spoke with a few people today, two of > > which had spent a year in the US. They all agreed that the meaning of > > "In case X, do Y" (that's what I asked, verbatim) was "If X occurs, do > > Y", so it's not just me. I've been speaking English for 50 years and that's exactly what it means to me. There's nothing precautionary about it (i.e., regarding X), except to the extent that one might decide that doing X is not a good thing, quite apart from the advice which the sentence is offering about doing Y when X occurs (i.e., in the case X). > I would accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic > and semantically equivalent: > > (1) In case there is an explosion, call the police. > > (2) In case of an explosion, call the police. I agree 100%, regardless of any "seeding" of the conversation, based on my (NW USA) experience, not grammar education. > But I would also accept the following two sentences as equally idiomatic > and semantically equivalent: > > (3) In case there is an explosion, call the police. > > (4) Call the police in case there is an explosion. Interesting. I strongly disagree. Sentence (4) tells me to call the police now to prepare for an explosion which only MIGHT happen. I guess that's called an "idiomatic" usage, because it doesn't seem right when one analyzes it. Here's a similar example in which the idiomatic meaning is more obvious: "Wear your jacket, in case it gets windy." (Now THAT'S a precaution.) In (4), that reading is so absurd that I know the writer must have meant (3) (or (5), below). Changing the "in case" in (4) removes the just-referenced idiom. Call the police in a case where there is an explosion. Call the police in a case of explosion. Call the police in the case of an explosion. Call the police in cases of explosion. (5) Call the police if there is an explosion. Call the police if an explosion occurs. Call the police after an explosion occurs. Call the police when an explosion occurs. (The last three have quite different meanings, but are close enough for anyone but a "stickler".) > English is kinda neat in that you can mix the phrases around in almost > any order and still have a semantically equivalent sentence: But it's less neat if you don't know the exceptions, especially as they differ from person to person. > (6) Keep a fire extinguisher by the stove in case there is a fire. > (7) In case there is a fire, keep a fire extinguisher by the stove. Sorry; those are not even close to equivalent, as I understand them. The second is only tolerable since you know the wrongness of it's actual meaning. Consider these sentences (syntactically similar to yours): (6b) Whack your beard with your hand, in case there is a fire in your beard. (7b) In case there is a fire in your beard, whack your beard with your hand. Now in these, I put the "wrongness" in the opposite sentence, but I think the semantic difference is clear; the second is quite reasonable, while the first makes me laugh. I see someone whacking their beard as a precautionary measure. > (11) *Give her the Heimlech meaneouver in case she starts choking. > (12) *Give her the Heimlech maneouver in case of her choking. We differ again. The first makes me laugh again. The second imparts the reasonable meaning, though it sounds like less-than-perfect grammar. > In case that my head starts to hurt, I will now stop thinking and > writing about this. ;-) I could feel your pain, so I didn't consider your last set of examples. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 00:40:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D810737B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caseyjones.dundee.net (caseyjones.dundee.net [216.234.106.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 907AB43FAF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bounce-message-28011777@lyris.dundee.net) Message-Id: X-lyris-type: confirm-request From: "The LangaList (Standard Edition) Confirmation (from Lyris ListManager)" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 03:40:07 -0400 Subject: Please reply to Fred Langa X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "The LangaList \(Standard Edition\) Confirmation \(from Lyris ListManager\)" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:40:14 -0000 Thanks for your preliminary subscription request (via Browsertune.Com, Langa.Com or direct email) to the award-winning, free, and spamproof "LANGALIST STANDARD EDITION." 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Best Regards, Fred Langa From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 00:40:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5200737B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lmailaol1.aol.com (lmailaol1.aol.com [152.163.225.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C0543F75 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from LISTSERV.AOL.COM (tem01.mx.aol.com) by lmailaol1.aol.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00023F31@lmailaol1.aol.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 4:17:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:40:55 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at America Online, Inc. (1.8e)" To: chat@FREEBSD.ORG X-LSV-ListID: TOURBUS Message-Id: <20030602074056.92C0543F75@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Command confirmation request (CC1700EB) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:40:57 -0000 Your command: SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Anonymous has been received. You must now reply to this message (as explained below) to complete your subscription. The purpose of this confirmation procedure is to make sure that you have indeed requested to be added to the list. To confirm the execution of your command, simply point your browser to the following URL: http://listserv.aol.com/cgi-bin/wa?OK=CC1700EB&L=TOURBUS Alternatively, if you have no WWW access, you can reply to the present message and type "ok" (without the quotes) as the text of your message. Just the word "ok" - do not retype the command. This procedure will work with any mail program that fully conforms to the Internet standards for electronic mail. If you receive an error message, try sending a new message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM (without using the "reply" function - this is very important) and type "ok CC1700EB" as the text of your message. Finally, your command will be cancelled automatically if LISTSERV does not receive your confirmation within 48h. After that time, you must start over and resend the command to get a new confirmation code. If you change your mind and decide that you do NOT want to confirm the command, simply discard the present message and let the request expire on its own. ------------------------- Original mail header -------------------------- Received: from dhaame.pair.com (dhaame.pair.com [209.68.1.163]) by listserv.aol.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id h527esG07039 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23464 invoked by uid 3120); 2 Jun 2003 07:40:54 -0000 Date: 2 Jun 2003 07:40:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602074054.23463.qmail@dhaame.pair.com> From: chat@freebsd.org To: listserv@listserv.aol.com Subject: JV - langa X-Origin: 12.146.245.18 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 00:44:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE75D37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lmailaol1.aol.com (lmailaol1.aol.com [152.163.225.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2817A43F3F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-TOURBUS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM) Received: from LISTSERV.AOL.COM (tem01.mx.aol.com) by lmailaol1.aol.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <7.00023F37@lmailaol1.aol.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 4:20:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:44:25 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at America Online, Inc. (1.8e)" To: chat@FREEBSD.ORG X-LSV-ListID: TOURBUS Message-Id: <20030602074426.2817A43F3F@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: You are now subscribed to the TOURBUS list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: TOURBUS-request@LISTSERV.AOL.COM List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:44:27 -0000 Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:44:25 Your subscription to the TOURBUS list (The Internet TourBus - A virtual tour of cyberspace) has been accepted. Please save this message for future reference, especially if you are not familiar with LISTSERV. This might look like a waste of disk space now, but in 6 months you will be glad you saved this information when you realize that you cannot remember what are the lists you are subscribed to, or what is the command to leave the list to avoid filling up your mailbox while you are on vacations. In fact, you should create a new mail folder for subscription confirmation messages like this one, and for the "welcome messages" from the list owners that you will occasionally receive after subscribing to a new list. Note: Since TOURBUS is a "moderated one-way" list, you cannot send a message to all the list subscribers. Only the moderators (owners) of the list may post new messages. You may leave the list at any time by visiting http://www.tourbus.com or by sending "SIGNOFF TOURBUS" in the BODY of an email to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM. You can browse the TOURBUS archives online at http://www.TOURBUS.com More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 00:44:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9046337B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lmailaol1.aol.com (lmailaol1.aol.com [152.163.225.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56F743F3F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-TOURBUS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM) Received: from LISTSERV.AOL.COM (tem01.mx.aol.com) by lmailaol1.aol.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <8.00023F34@lmailaol1.aol.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 4:20:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:44:25 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at America Online, Inc. (1.8e)" To: chat@FREEBSD.ORG X-LSV-ListID: TOURBUS Message-Id: <20030602074426.D56F743F3F@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Welcome Aboard The Internet TOURBUS! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: TOURBUS-request@LISTSERV.AOL.COM List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 07:44:27 -0000 WELCOME TO TOURBUS ------------------ TOURBUS is an e-mail newsletter brought to you by the team of Patrick Douglas Crispen, creator of the popular ROADMAP series and "Doctor Bob" Rankin, freelance writer and author of several books, including "The No BS Guide to Red Hat Linux". TOURBUS is a FREE tour of some of the coolest sites on the Internet. Since 1995, Patrick and Bob have served as your tour guides, giving you an inside look at what actually makes each TOURBUS stop "cool". We also keep you up to date on Internet tools and technology with our (sometimes humorous) weekly commentaries. Some TOURBUS postings may contain messages from our sponsors. This helps to offset the effort required to bring you a high quality resource twice each week. (Posts go out on Tuesday and Thursday.) A companion CDROM with the COMPLETE TOURBUS ARCHIVES is also available. See the bottom of this message for details. THE TOURBUS WEBSITE ------------------- You can get back issues of the TOURBUS newsletter by visiting the TOURBUS Web Site at: http://www.tourbus.com/ You'll also find the TOURBUS FAQ, Free Stuff, Fun Polls, Trivia, and the must-see "Warp The Busdriver" game. We encourage you to visit and familiarize yourself with TOURBUS while you're waiting for the next issue to arrive in your inbox. MORE GOOD STUFF --------------- If you haven't already checked out the cool topical lists from PostMaster Direct, please visit the link below: http://www.tourbus.com/pmd.htm LIST ADMINISTRIVIA ------------------ To subscribe, visit http://www.tourbus.com or send the following command in the BODY of an e-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM : SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS To UNsubscribe, visit http://www.tourbus.com or send the following command in the BODY of an e-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM : SIGNOFF TOURBUS Want information on TOURBUS advertising? You can reach an audience of over 90,000 readers with a TOURBUS ad spot. For details, send e-mail to bob@tourbus.com THE TOURBUS ARCHIVES ON CDROM ----------------------------- We're happy to announce the availability of the Tourbus Archives (1995- 2001) on CDROM! Due to space and time constraints, we can only keep about two months of back issues online. But now you can have over SIX YEARS of Tourbus newsletters at your fingertips, fully searchable and printable. That's over 600 issues filled with advice, tips and tricks, served with a healthy dose of offbeat humor. It's especially nice to hear from readers that TOURBUS has been helpful to them. Here's what some of them have said: > "Thank you for your excellent newsletter. In these tumultuous days > of internet evolution, you consistently deliver extremely useful > and valuable articles." -- M. Kramer, Berkeley, CA > "A great resource, witty and practical. What a refreshing change > from Internet garbage-as-usual." -- C. Schmidt, Atlanta GA > "Your timing is impeccable, your insights and knowledge about the > Internet invaluable. Thank you for taking the time and effort to > help your fellow netizens!" -- Mary L., Indianapolis, IN That's always been our goal, to deliver knowledge in a useful and humorous format. I'm sure you'll agree that the Tourbus Archives will be a valuable tool when you have questions about Search Engines, Viruses, dealing with Spam, or your online Privacy and Security. The CDROM also comes with a FREE bonus -- Doctor Bob's special report entitled "The Best of Everything". This report will show you where to find the absolute best websites in over a hundred categories. The best search engines, where to find shopping discounts and coupon codes, online newspapers, tips for wanna-be webmasters, how to open a web store, beat the spammers, access a database of urban legends, and lots more. The Tourbus Archives is a valuable personal reference and makes a great gift too. To order your Tourbus Archives CDROM and get your free copy of "The Best of Everything" click here: http://www.tourbus.com/cdrom.htm CONTACT INFORMATION ------------------- Owners: Bob Rankin Patrick Crispen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 02:08:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0E937B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.9netweb.it (mail2.9netweb.it [66.71.191.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4960C43FAF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from info@webquiz.it) Received: from nti11 (s190-20.9natmp [66.71.190.20] (may be forged)) by mail2.9netweb.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id c522uNS57828 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 04:56:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from info@webquiz.it) Received: from mail pickup service by nti11 with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:16:38 +0200 From: "WebQuiz.it Staff" To: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:16:37 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <063c53816090263NTI11@nti11> Subject: WebQuiz.it: subscription confirmation X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:08:25 -0000 Dear user, your subscription to WebQuiz.it newsletter has been completed successfully! Once a week you will receive the latest information and quizzes added to the directory. For any information you can contact us at info@webquiz.it. WebQuiz.it staff http://www.webquiz.it From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:18:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB1A37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3-pri.mail.gospelcom.net (mx3-pri.mail.gospelcom.net [204.253.132.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C65B43F85 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:18:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ifc-return-@lists.gospelcom.net) Received: (qmail 5803 invoked by uid 200); 2 Jun 2003 10:18:18 -0000 Date: 2 Jun 2003 10:18:18 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ifc-help@lists.gospelcom.net; run by ezmlm Message-ID: <1054549097.5800.ezmlm@lists.gospelcom.net From: ifc-help@lists.gospelcom.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: responder for ifc@lists.gospelcom.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: confirm subscribe to ifc@lists.gospelcom.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:18:19 -0000 Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the ifc@lists.gospelcom.net mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. To confirm that you would like freebsd-chat@freebsd.org added to the ifc mailing list, please click on the URL below: http://mail.gospelcom.net/c/Wd6_w6BB1gXnqVH9zd93TA This confirmation serves to protect you in case someone forges a subscription request in your name. Just follow that link, and you'll be on the list! --- Administrative commands for the ifc list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, send a message to: Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list: To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 per request), mail: To get an index with subject and author for messages 123-456 , mail: They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 per request, so you'll actually get 100-499. To receive all messages with the same subject as message 12345, send an empty message to: The messages do not really need to be empty, but I will ignore their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is important. You can start a subscription for an alternate address, for example "john@host.domain", just add a hyphen and your address (with '=' instead of '@') after the command word: To stop subscription for this address, mail: In both cases, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply follow the enclosed instructions by visiting the indicated URL. If despite following these instructions, you do not get the desired results, please contact my owner at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. Please be patient, my owner is a lot slower than I am ;-) --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:24:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FD337B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net (mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net [204.253.132.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5986F43F3F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ifc-return-@lists.gospelcom.net) Received: (qmail 13661 invoked by uid 200); 2 Jun 2003 10:24:22 -0000 Date: 2 Jun 2003 10:24:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602102422.13660.qmail@mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net> From: ifc-help@lists.gospelcom.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: WELCOME to ifc@lists.gospelcom.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:24:24 -0000 Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the ifc@lists.gospelcom.net mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. Acknowledgment: I have added the address freebsd-chat@freebsd.org to the ifc mailing list. Welcome to the e-mail version of the The Internet for Christians Newsletter! Twice a month you'll get the latest information about what's happening in cyberland. To visit the illustrated version and archives of the newsletter on the World Wide Web, go to the following URL (Web address): http://www.gospelcom.net/ifc Also at this web site you'll find some terrific resources for Christian users of the Internet: * a list of dozens of Christian email lists that you can subscribe to without charge (everything from theological discussion to daily devotionals and denomination-specific discussions) * anwers to questions frequently asked by Christian users of the Internet (and a chance for you to submit your own questions) * a Christian guide to all kinds of online resources, from search engines to ways of finding people online If you have any information to announce in the Internet for Christians Newsletter, please send it to me at: ifc-submit@gospelcom.net If you wish to unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ifc-unsubscribe@gospelcom.net Thanks for subscribing! Quentin Schultze Editor, Internet for Christians Newsletter Professor of Communication at Calvin College Special Coordinator for the Gospel Communications Network Author of INTERNET FOR CHRISTIANS, a recently revised book published by Gospel Films and the Gospel Communications Network (1-800-253-0413) Please save this message so that you know the address you are subscribed under, in case you later want to unsubscribe or change your subscription address. --- Administrative commands for the ifc list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, send a message to: Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list: To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 per request), mail: To get an index with subject and author for messages 123-456 , mail: They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 per request, so you'll actually get 100-499. To receive all messages with the same subject as message 12345, send an empty message to: The messages do not really need to be empty, but I will ignore their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is important. You can start a subscription for an alternate address, for example "john@host.domain", just add a hyphen and your address (with '=' instead of '@') after the command word: To stop subscription for this address, mail: In both cases, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply follow the enclosed instructions by visiting the indicated URL. If despite following these instructions, you do not get the desired results, please contact my owner at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. Please be patient, my owner is a lot slower than I am ;-) --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:32:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DCE37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net (mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net [204.253.132.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962C443F75 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ifc-return-@lists.gospelcom.net) Received: (qmail 15280 invoked by uid 200); 2 Jun 2003 10:32:12 -0000 Date: 2 Jun 2003 10:32:12 -0000 Mailing-List: contact ifc-help@lists.gospelcom.net; run by ezmlm Message-ID: <1054549932.15277.ezmlm@lists.gospelcom.net From: ifc-help@lists.gospelcom.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: responder for ifc@lists.gospelcom.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: confirm unsubscribe to ifc@lists.gospelcom.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:32:13 -0000 Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the ifc@lists.gospelcom.net mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. To confirm that you would like freebsd-chat@freebsd.org removed from the ifc mailing list, please click on this URL: http://mail.gospelcom.net/c/cwvJzqnX62bKHSZJ0mk6Xw I haven't checked whether your address is currently on the mailing list. To see what address you used to subscribe, look at the messages you are receiving from the mailing list. Each message has your address hidden inside its return path; for example, mary@xdd.ff.com receives messages with return path: -mary=xdd.ff.com@lists.gospelcom.net. --- Administrative commands for the ifc list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, send a message to: Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list: To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 per request), mail: To get an index with subject and author for messages 123-456 , mail: They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 per request, so you'll actually get 100-499. To receive all messages with the same subject as message 12345, send an empty message to: The messages do not really need to be empty, but I will ignore their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is important. You can start a subscription for an alternate address, for example "john@host.domain", just add a hyphen and your address (with '=' instead of '@') after the command word: To stop subscription for this address, mail: In both cases, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply follow the enclosed instructions by visiting the indicated URL. If despite following these instructions, you do not get the desired results, please contact my owner at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. Please be patient, my owner is a lot slower than I am ;-) --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:34:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144DB37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net (mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net [204.253.132.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2734943F75 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ifc-return-@lists.gospelcom.net) Received: (qmail 15923 invoked by uid 200); 2 Jun 2003 10:34:50 -0000 Date: 2 Jun 2003 10:34:50 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602103450.15922.qmail@mx1-pri.mail.gospelcom.net> From: ifc-help@lists.gospelcom.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: GOODBYE from ifc@lists.gospelcom.net X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:34:52 -0000 Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the ifc@lists.gospelcom.net mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. Acknowledgment: I have removed the address freebsd-chat@freebsd.org from the ifc mailing list. This address is no longer a subscriber. --- Administrative commands for the ifc list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, send a message to: Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list: To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 per request), mail: To get an index with subject and author for messages 123-456 , mail: They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 per request, so you'll actually get 100-499. To receive all messages with the same subject as message 12345, send an empty message to: The messages do not really need to be empty, but I will ignore their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is important. You can start a subscription for an alternate address, for example "john@host.domain", just add a hyphen and your address (with '=' instead of '@') after the command word: To stop subscription for this address, mail: In both cases, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply follow the enclosed instructions by visiting the indicated URL. If despite following these instructions, you do not get the desired results, please contact my owner at ifc-owner@lists.gospelcom.net. Please be patient, my owner is a lot slower than I am ;-) --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:38:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E0437B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.adventive.com (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net [64.35.154.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B8A43F85 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from spudmonk (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net) by list.adventive.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <4.002DFF73@list.adventive.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 3:37:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:37:55 -0700 From: "L-Soft list server at Adventive (1.8d)" To: Dag-Smorgreff Erling X-LSV-ListID: ASK-TAXMAMA Message-Id: <20030602103827.85B8A43F85@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Command confirmation request (E77C8D83) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:38:28 -0000 Your command: SUBSCRIBE ask-taxmama Dag-Smorgreff Erling has been received. You must now reply to this message (as explained below) to complete your subscription. The purpose of this confirmation procedure is to check that the address LISTSERV is about to add to the list for your subscription is reachable. This is a typical procedure for high-volume lists and all new subscribers are subjected to it - you are not being singled out. Every effort has been made to make this verification as simple and painless as possible. Thanks in advance for your cooperation. To confirm the execution of your command, simply point your browser to the following URL: http://list.adventive.com/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?OK=E77C8D83&L=ask-taxmama Alternatively, if you have no WWW access, you can reply to the present message and type "ok" (without the quotes) as the text of your message. Just the word "ok" - do not retype the command. This procedure will work with any mail program that fully conforms to the Internet standards for electronic mail. If you receive an error message, try sending a new message to LISTSERV@LIST.ADVENTIVE.COM (without using the "reply" function - this is very important) and type "ok E77C8D83" as the text of your message. Finally, your command will be cancelled automatically if LISTSERV does not receive your confirmation within 120h. After that time, you must start over and resend the command to get a new confirmation code. If you change your mind and decide that you do NOT want to confirm the command, simply discard the present message and let the request expire on its own. We are delighted to have you join TaxMama's family. Please, do click your confirmation. You're going to save so much money by learning how to play the tax game - and win! Best wishes Eva Rosenberg Your TaxMama http://taxmama.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:38:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9002E37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.adventive.com (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net [64.35.154.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232B943F85 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from spudmonk (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net) by list.adventive.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <5.000605B8@list.adventive.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 3:37:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:37:55 -0700 From: "L-Soft list server at Adventive (1.8d)" To: Dag-Smorgreff Erling Message-Id: <20030602103828.232B943F85@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE ask-taxmama X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:38:28 -0000 > SUBSCRIBE ask-taxmama Dag-Smorgreff Erling A confirmation request is being mailed to you. Please wait until it arrives before sending any SET command, or any other command that requires you to be subscribed to the list, as you have not yet been added to the list. > ------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:39:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF2A37B404 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horse.easymailers.net (horse.easymailers.net [66.151.131.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193EA43F93 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:39:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usnews.com_Newsletters@clickaction.net) Received: from hawk (unknown [192.168.5.111]) by horse.easymailers.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2215C870BC0 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1156813.1054550347980.JavaMail.weblogic@hawk> From: Health Smart To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_5205_2096347.1054550347977" X-Header-Pitchid: 77043 X-Header-Userid: 159985359 X-Header-Version: 6.2 X-Header-Date: 02-Jun-2003 X-Header-Partid: 15504 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Do-it-yourself health care X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:39:10 -0000 ------=_Part_5205_2096347.1054550347977 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Dag-Smorgreff, ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ W E L C O M E T O U S N E W S . C O M ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Health Smart: Do-it-yourself health care Volume 3, Issue 9 -- May 21, 2003 =================================== CHEATING ON YOUR DOCTOR (Sound bytes) "Order any of 5,600 blood tests and save 40-70 percent! Click here to see how!" -- Health-Test Direct's Web site "This gives me more power. I wasn't getting the answers or tests I needed from my doctor. Plus it's economics. The thyroid panel ordered by my endocrinologist in Boulder cost me $210. The same test through Healthcheck costs $75." -- Rinah Levine, a rancher from Conifer, Colo., who used HealthcheckUSA to get a complete blood count and a sophisticated thyroid test ------------------------------ TESTING MADE EASY (Health news) The direct medical testing field is booming. Thyroid, cholesterol, allergies, liver enzymes, cancer markers, blood sugar, hormone levels--tests for all are on the market. Just click, phone, or fax any of these companies with your credit card at the ready, pick a test, and head to an office to have your blood drawn. Within days, the results will be mailed to your home. However, tests alone don't add up to a good diagnosis. Doctors, ideally, know a patient well, know the family history, and are familiar with how various drugs and medical conditions can skew lab results. The ups and downs of direct-from-lab medical testing: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77043a159985359a3 ------------------------------ TEST CASES (Chart) Here are some of the most popular health tests you can get without visiting the doctor's office. ANEMIA: iron status and complete blood count DIABETES: glucose levels and hemoglobin A1C test HEART: HDL, LDL, and total cholesterol; triglycerides On your own: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77043a159985359a4 ------------------------------ DO-IT-YOURSELF DIAGNOSIS (Health news) Walk-in CT scanning centers have taken root in cities and tony suburbs where the worried well are willing to pay from several hundred to more than $1,000 out of pocket. But in last week's Journal of the American Medical Association, the first large study to investigate scanning's potential to change behavior suggested that the majority of people don't. The discouraging conclusion: The initial alarm at an ominous scan typically fizzles into apathy. A CT scan can send a powerful message. So what's wrong with this picture? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77043a159985359a2 ------------------------------ ONLINE CHATS HEAL WOUNDS (News You Can Use) The medical establishment has had enough and is fighting back--via E-mail. Trying to improve relations between doctors and patients, the American Medical Association, along with several dozen medical societies, is helping doctors embrace online consultations. Surveys show that 90 percent of E-mail users want to reach doctors that way. Visit your doctor virtually: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77043a159985359a1 ==================================================== Sign up for other usnews.com E-mail newsletters or manage your account (including unsubscribing) at http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77043a159985359a8 ===================================================== Copyright (c) 2003 U.S. News & World Report L.P. All rights reserved. ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Tools for Living Smart ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Click here to forward this newsletter to a friend! http://www.you-click.net/GoForward/a15504a77043aSa159985359a2 ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ You're receiving this email because you subscribed and requested news and promotions from us. This is a recurring mailing. To unsubscribe from future mailings; click the link below, reply to this email with "unsubscribe" in the subject line or print and mail this page to the attention of "Unsubscribe Request" at 2197 E. Bayshore Road, Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA. http://www.you-click.net/Change-Remove/a15504a159985359a2a77043 ------=_Part_5205_2096347.1054550347977-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:39:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF59337B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goat.easymailers.net (goat.easymailers.net [66.151.131.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4114843F75 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usnews.com_Newsletters@clickaction.net) Received: from hawk (unknown [192.168.5.111]) by goat.easymailers.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2229BE58B3D4 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5205797.1054550348131.JavaMail.weblogic@hawk> From: Washington Whispers To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_5208_1549060.1054550348130" X-Header-Pitchid: 77435 X-Header-Userid: 159985359 X-Header-Version: 6.2 X-Header-Date: 02-Jun-2003 X-Header-Partid: 15504 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Getting a good deal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:39:12 -0000 ------=_Part_5208_1549060.1054550348130 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Dag-Smorgreff, ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ W E L C O M E T O U S N E W S . C O M ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Washington Whispers Weekly Volume 3, Issue 18 -- May 28, 2003 ======================================================= IT'S NOT THAT BAD (Sound bytes) "I'd like to give divorce a good name." Who said it? Click here to find out: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a2 "It's not going to kill us all." Dean Cliver, food safety professor at the University of California, on mad cow disease --------------------------------------- BOWING TO BUSH'S BARGAINER (Whisper) In what's likely to be his final bargain score before leaving, President Bush's budget chief Mitch Daniels has convinced Office Depot--and, soon, Microsoft--to give Uncle Sam bulk-rate discounts on the millions of dollars of goods the government buys each year. Office Depot just inked a cost-cutting deal, and negotiations with Microsoft are about done. Officials applaud Office Depot's move, which should save taxpayers over $3 million a year. The Microsoft savings will dwarf that. Millions saved are millions earned. http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a0 --------------------------------------- SICK OF TAXES (Whisper) Rookie California Rep. Linda Sanchez had an unusual reaction to the Bush tax cut--she tossed her cookies. As the House voted early last Friday, Sanchez, described by observers as tipsy, rushed off the House floor to a balcony and threw up as a doorman held her. The (frat) House of Representatives? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a1 --------------------------------------- BROTHERLY LOVE (Historical Whispers) >From the issue of May 27, 1963: Senator Edward M. Kennedy (Dem.), of Massachusetts, has been mildly chided by President Kennedy, the Senator's brother, for referring so many matters concerning Massachusetts to the White House. Are you a history buff? Read more Whispers from the U.S. News archives: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a6 --------------------------------------- EIGHT MORE YEARS? (Weekly poll) What are the odds that New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton will run for president in 2004? * Less than 25 percent * About even * Better than even, say 60-40 * She's running--100 percent Cast your vote: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a3 --------------------------------------- PAUL'S PICKS (Best of the Web) http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a9 Meet the White House chef http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a12 Another deck of Iraq war cards, this one on war profiteers ==================================================== Sign up for other usnews.com E-mail newsletters or manage your account (including unsubscribing) at http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77435a159985359a10 ===================================================== Copyright (c) 2003 U.S. News & World Report, L.P. All rights reserved. ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Tools for Living Smart ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Click here to forward this newsletter to a friend! http://www.you-click.net/GoForward/a15504a77435aSa159985359a2 ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ You're receiving this email because you subscribed and requested news and promotions from us. This is a recurring mailing. To unsubscribe from future mailings; click the link below, reply to this email with "unsubscribe" in the subject line or print and mail this page to the attention of "Unsubscribe Request" at 2197 E. Bayshore Road, Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA. http://www.you-click.net/Change-Remove/a15504a159985359a2a77435 ------=_Part_5208_1549060.1054550348130-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:39:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3A837B407 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mule.easymailers.net (mule.easymailers.net [66.151.131.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3C143FAF for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usnews.com_Newsletters@clickaction.net) Received: from hawk (unknown [192.168.5.111]) by mule.easymailers.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358C8AF4CB8D for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1572427.1054550348208.JavaMail.weblogic@hawk> From: "First Stop: College" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_5210_5342609.1054550348205" X-Header-Pitchid: 77520 X-Header-Userid: 159985359 X-Header-Version: 6.2 X-Header-Date: 02-Jun-2003 X-Header-Partid: 15504 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 06:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Visiting schools: How to do it, what to look for, and more! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:39:13 -0000 ------=_Part_5210_5342609.1054550348205 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Dear Dag-Smorgreff, ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ W E L C O M E T O U S N E W S . C O M ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ FIRST STOP: COLLEGE Tools you need to make the right choices May 29, 2003 =================================================== GETTING TO KNOW A SCHOOL (Campus visits) "In order to be successful, one must project an image of success at all times." --Buddy Kane, American Beauty For those of you who are finishing up junior year in high school, there is a lot to think about over the course of the coming year. If you haven't already started visiting schools, you will most likely be starting soon. There is no one way to visit a campus. You could tour a dozen schools during the spring and summer of junior year or wait until April of senior year to sample a few of the colleges where you've already been accepted. Usually, Mom and Dad come along, but some folks go solo or with peers. On campus, you might be one of hundreds of teenagers attending an open house or one of just a few visitors. No matter which path you take, there is one question you need to answer: "Can I picture myself at this school for four years?" How can you get the most out of a college visit? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a5 What things should I look for? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a4 ---------------------------------------- A FEW FINE NAMES YOU MAY NOT KNOW (Overlooked schools) "I send out 100 men, they find nothing. I send out 10 men, they don't come back." --Major Hasko, Back to Bataan A growing number of students with impeccable credentials are finding that there are many alternatives to the country's elite institutions­-and they are often much cheaper. So, how do you find them? The U.S. News college rankings and directory can help you narrow your search and home in on schools that appear to be the right intellectual fit and size. College Web sites­-used judiciously-­and general guidebooks can help too. But even if you've arrived at a handful of colleges that seem just right, there may be others that are worth considering­-schools you may not even have heard of. What schools are you missing? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a3 ---------------------------------------- CHOOSE YOUR BEST PLACE TO LIVE (Interactive tool) "Fine. Great. Excellent. Wonderful. Perfect." --Lolita, Lolita Where would you like to live, work, play, or go to school? Deciding which areas fit you best is a good way to get started narrowing your list of schools. It seems everyone wants to live in a city with a low crime rate, a warm climate, affordable housing, and plentiful jobs. But there are always trade-offs in the real world. With this feature, you define your ideal place to live by indicating the importance of a variety of criteria. Your preferences are then run through thousands of calculations, and we display a ranking of the cities that best fit you. What's the perfect spot for you? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a12 ---------------------------------------- ROAD TRIP (College profile) "Let's go, let's go, giddyup, let's ride!" --Cadet Dotson, Major Payne At this school, the focus is on career-oriented and technology-based academic programs. The institute specializes in carving out niches for itself with unusual programs, and majors are offered in more than 200 fields, from basic electrical and mechanical engineering to packaging science and nuclear medicine technology. Fortunately, applicants narrow the range of choices to a manageable size by applying to one of seven undergraduate colleges. HINT: Founded in 1829 and emphasizing career education, this school is a privately endowed, coeducational university enrolling more than 15,000 students. Check out our campus road trip of the week: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a2 Take a glance at the Fiske campus profile: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a1 ---------------------------------------- LIFE ON THE MATRIX (Best of the Web) "Would a spy pee himself?" --Simon, True Lies Did you ever watch a James Bond movie and want to be a spy? Of course you did. Well, the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C., gives you all of the info you need to learn about the spies of the past. However, if you can't get to the museum, it has lots of cool stuff online, like a digital cipher that lets you send secret messages to your friends via E-mail. It might not take the place of passing notes in class, but it's probably safer. How does a cipher work? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a14 ---------------------------------------- THE REAL, REAL WORLD (Also on usnews.com) Iraqi politics: Can a rich businessman, back from exile in California, make a difference? http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a10 The Gulf Stream: Pouring cold water on a climate myth: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a7 A Mighty Wind pokes fun, but folk music fans don't give a hoot: http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a6 ================================================== Sign up for other usnews.com E-mail newsletters or manage your account (including unsubscribing) at http://www.you-click.net/GoNow/a15504a77520a159985359a13 ================================================== ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Tools for Living Smart ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ Click here to forward this newsletter to a friend! http://www.you-click.net/GoForward/a15504a77520aSa159985359a2 ~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~..~.~ You're receiving this email because you subscribed and requested news and promotions from us. This is a recurring mailing. To unsubscribe from future mailings; click the link below, reply to this email with "unsubscribe" in the subject line or print and mail this page to the attention of "Unsubscribe Request" at 2197 E. Bayshore Road, Palo Alto, CA 94303 USA. http://www.you-click.net/Change-Remove/a15504a159985359a2a77520 ------=_Part_5210_5342609.1054550348205-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:43:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E5037B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F5643F85 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19MmnK-0008tJ-NQ for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:44:02 +0100 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:44:02 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030602104402.GE13771@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: HEADS-UP: Mailing list trolls X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:43:57 -0000 Hi, We're getting a lot of traffic at the moment on -chat and other lists (I've seen something on -hackers) from listservs. Ignore it all - I'm working through the unsubs until the FreeBSD postmaster's wake up in a few hours. It unfortunately means we're going to see lots of crappy mails for the next few hours whilst the 14-year olds try and grow up. I don't work on FBSD, I don't have commit, I'm just fed up of receiving crap as somebody else's idea of a joke. Happy to liase with postmaster@ if they're taking this to list managers with a view to get the originator's account killed at their local ISP. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:45:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AFE37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.adventive.com (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net [64.35.154.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D06C43F75 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ASK-TAXMAMA@LIST.ADVENTIVE.COM) Received: from spudmonk (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net) by list.adventive.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <7.000605DC@list.adventive.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 3:44:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:44:51 -0700 From: "L-Soft list server at Adventive (1.8d)" To: Dag-Smorgreff Erling X-LSV-ListID: ASK-TAXMAMA Message-Id: <20030602104521.5D06C43F75@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: You are now subscribed to the ask-taxmama list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ask-taxmama-signoff-request@list.adventive.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:45:22 -0000 Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:44:51 Your subscription to the ask-taxmama list (Ask TaxMama - Tax Information With A Mother's Touch) has been accepted. 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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:45:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5FE37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.adventive.com (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net [64.35.154.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E4C43F3F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ask-taxmama@LIST.ADVENTIVE.COM) Received: from spudmonk (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net) by list.adventive.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.013A163D@list.adventive.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 3:44:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:44:51 -0700 From: "L-Soft list server at Adventive (1.8d)" To: Dag-Smorgreff Erling X-LSV-ListID: ASK-TAXMAMA Message-Id: <20030602104522.12E4C43F3F@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Welcome To Ask TaxMama X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ask-taxmama-request@LIST.ADVENTIVE.COM List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:45:22 -0000 Thank you for joining TaxMama's family. 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And if you are interested in a terrific speaker for your next seminar or event, TaxMama is both informative and hilarious. mailto:taxmama@taxmama.com?subject=Speak_To_Us From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 03:48:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D358437B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA6043F3F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 03:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h52AmBuD070538 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:48:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h52AmBcd070537 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:48:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h52AjNHh012969 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:45:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200306021045.h52AjNHh012969@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:45:23 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.2 required=5.0 tests=FROM_NO_LOWER version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Forged subscriptions and trolling. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:48:14 -0000 Hi Please could everyone _IGNORE_ the forged subscriptions and the trolling that is currently happening. In order for it to stop, I need a total absence of participation from list members. Thank you for your cooperation! M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 07:15:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2FE37B401; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 07:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yorktown.nielsenmedia.com (yorktown.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB97D43F75; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 07:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David.W.Gray@nielsenmedia.com) Received: from nmrusdunsxg10.nmrlan.net (nmrusdunsxg10.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.154])h52EFtCh004777; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (unverified) by nmrusdunsxg10.nmrlan.net ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:15:55 -0400 Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:15:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Gray, David W" To: "'Larry Sica'" , Nik Clayton Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 10:15:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" cc: "Gray, David W" cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: preferred email system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 14:15:57 -0000 Nik's system is what I use, essentially. I have 5 or 6 internal boxes (the wife has been understanding so far...) that all can get to my main mailbox. From the outside, it's either SSH tunneling (and Putty works just fine on my work [win2K] machine), or SHTTP. In both cases, the firewall is selective as to who can connect (bit me on the butt once on vacation, fortunately I also had a modem connection in those days.) SSH tunneling has done everything I need to do, and really doesn't need much setup. On the server machine, it just needs to allow tunneling, all else is done from the client. Didn't even take much time :) -----Original Message----- From: Larry Sica [mailto:lomion@mac.com] Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 11:04 PM To: Nik Clayton Cc: Paul Robinson; Gray, David W; 'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org' Subject: Re: preferred email system On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 07:14 PM, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 12:05:49PM -0400, Larry Sica wrote: >>> Don't use the IMAP. Configure an MTA and where you can have mail >>> delivered >>> direct. Where it needs to come off a remote mail server, grab a copy >>> of >>> fetchmail and make it do it's voodoo. Having an MTA on your local >>> machine >>> for just you is not just luxury - it's why you have Unix. :-) >>> >> >> You run into one possible problem here. What if your ISP filters the >> port incoming? Then you cannot access it remotely. Plus then you >> have >> to make sure you keep on top of any possible holes/bugs/spammers. I >> don't like running services out of my house unless I need to, mostly >> because I don't have the time. > > The simple solution to this is to firewall off all the ports, and > configure the app (the IMAP daemon, in this case) to only listen on > localhost/127.0.0.1. Then set up SSH port forwarding. > > I do this, so the schematic looks something like: > Yes you can do this. It comes down to if you have the time or will heh. I have attempted to reduce the systems in my house to as few as possible for various reasons right now. In my case it's easier to just have a hosting provider. What about AUP's? That is the real gotcha I guess. > `---------------------------------' > > The beauty of this is that it works for any protocol[1], irrespective > of > whether or not the protocol has built in security support, or whether > or > not you want to go through the hassle of configuring it (e.g., most > IMAP > servers speak SSL, but you need to make sure the client and server > interoperate). > yes, IMAP w/ ssl is nice. I use it where i can. I wish dotmac did it. > It also works pretty much anywhere, as long as you can reach port 22 on > the Internet facing side of your server[2] -- no IPSec to configure, or > other bits to worry about. And it works on any OS that has an SSH port > forwarding app, which, apart from the *nix's, includes things like > Windows, if that's important to you. > true. This would be trivial from my laptop..a tibook. SSHAgent is an app that does it for me w/o hassle. > With this approach you need precisely one hole in the firewall for > inbound traffic (port 22), and you need to trust exactly one daemon, > sshd. Remote holes in the other daemons (IMAP, etc) don't matter[3], > because the outside world can't get to them to exploit them. > true. I'd use getmail over fetchmail tho. > N > > [1] OK, sensibly designed protocols only. Things like FTP in non-PASV > mode don't count... > heh ok. I agree. > [2] For example, you'd be surprised how many of those "Internet access > in your hotel room" services will block ports 80 and 110 until > you've paid the $20 a day charge, but leave port 22 open... > I've never had that, places i've stayed if they had ethernet in the room didnt block ports unless i paid. > [3] Or at least, don't matter as much. Obviously, if your IMAP server > has an exploitable hole that gives the attacker root privs, *and* > there's an ssh hole such that untrusted users can log in in order > to then exploit the IMAP hole, all bets are off. > Well cascading vuln is bad. I'd still patch as needed just in case. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 08:11:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D620437B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398EC43F3F for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldshk.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.242.52] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Mqxn-0001Ej-00; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 08:11:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3EDB68B7.A9D7A02F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 08:09:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <3ECD3A8C.1040506@potentialtech.com> <00ae01c32668$2ff5ad70$2441d5cc@nitanjared> <20030531072026.O33085@welearn.com.au> <20030530213625.GA41089@wopr.caltech.edu> <20030531080645.Q33085@welearn.com.au> <20030601113948.G33085@welearn.com.au> <152193951140.20030601041329@myrealbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e2a59436dadf91d530d6b4f6725d6b96350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Tim Vanderhoek cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: grammar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:11:12 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek writes: > > (4) Call the police in case there is an explosion. > > Interesting. I strongly disagree. Sentence (4) tells me to call the > police now to prepare for an explosion which only MIGHT happen. I guess > that's called an "idiomatic" usage, because it doesn't seem right when > one analyzes it. Here's a similar example in which the idiomatic meaning > is more obvious: "Wear your jacket, in case it gets windy." (Now THAT'S > a precaution.) In (4), that reading is so absurd that I know the writer > must have meant (3) (or (5), below). You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 08:41:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D5237B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205B843FBD for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldshk.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.242.52] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19MrQn-0003hP-00; Mon, 02 Jun 2003 08:41:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3EDB6FBE.F2597C3D@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 08:39:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <20030602104402.GE13771@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4a08f1ed36a6627f42748657327cef33c667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEADS-UP: Mailing list trolls X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 15:41:09 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > We're getting a lot of traffic at the moment on -chat and other lists (I've > seen something on -hackers) from listservs. Ignore it all - I'm working > through the unsubs until the FreeBSD postmaster's wake up in a few hours. It > unfortunately means we're going to see lots of crappy mails for the next few > hours whilst the 14-year olds try and grow up. > > I don't work on FBSD, I don't have commit, I'm just fed up of receiving crap > as somebody else's idea of a joke. Happy to liase with postmaster@ if > they're taking this to list managers with a view to get the originator's > account killed at their local ISP. A clean way of dealing with this would be to modify the mailing list software to not transit any email with "List-" headers or a "Precedence: list" or "Precedence: bulk" header. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 11:16:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E2137B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compa.tol.cz (tol.ecn.cz [62.44.9.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AC9443F93 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mail@tol.cz) Received: (qmail 6391 invoked by uid 48); 2 Jun 2003 18:15:04 -0000 Date: 2 Jun 2003 18:15:04 -0000 Message-ID: <20030602181504.6390.qmail@compa.tol.cz> From: "Transitions Online" To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: New at TOL - 2 June 2003 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 18:16:27 -0000 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Transitions Online - Intelligent Eastern Europe New at TOL: Monday, 2 June 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Top Story: Ukraine: Ukraine’s Deceptive Constitutional Reform President Kuchma’s spurious reform proposals are a step back for Ukraine. The opposition would do well to block them. by Ivan Khokhotva 30 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=3&NrArticle=9642 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --ANNOUNCEMENT--TOL Interactive Discussion Get the inside story on accession from one of Brussels' best: On Thursday 12 June at 16:00 Central European time (10am Eastern Daylight time), Karel Bartak, the long-time Czech Press Agency (CTK) correspondent will answer readers' questions on enlargement, referenda in Poland and the Czech Republic, and related EU topics. Mr. Bartak has reported from Brussels since 1995 and was a finalist in the 2003 Eury Prize for EU journalism. You can already submit questions now at: http://www.tol.cz/q-a/index.php?IdD=11 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Week in Review: 27 May - 2 June 2003 Russia: On the Edge of a Multipolar World Putin says relations with China are at “their highest level ever” as he tries to narrow the rift with Washington. by Sergei Borisov http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/home.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46 Poland: In a Multipolar World Poles broadly welcome Bush visit and their role as a chief U.S. ally in Iraq one week ahead of its EU referendum. by Jakub Jedras http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/home.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46 Czech Republic: Shredded Documents, Shredded Reputation? Controversial Czech president of the UN General Assembly back in the news after allegations of improper handling of secret documents come to light. by Pavla Kozakova http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/home.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46 Armenia: Yes and No, Mr. President The president retains the support of parliament but fails to win the public’s support for his controversial changes to the constitution. by Anna Hakobyan http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/home.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46 Montenegro: Justice Given Short Shift? Public outcry as a court drops charges against suspects in a high-profile human trafficking affair. by Aida Ramusovic http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/home.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46 More Week in Review stories... Kosovo Gains Some Powers Serbia To Punish 30-Year-Old Crimes EU Revives Ukraine Pipeline Plan Will GUUAM Worsen Georgia-Russia Relations? Crackdown Continues on Independent Belarusian Media http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/home.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --ANNOUNCEMENT--FREE INDIVIDUAL SUBSCRIPTIONS TO TOL Purchase now your copy of TOL's 2002 Country Annual Survey CD-ROM and receive a FREE INDIVIDUAL SUBSCRIPTION TO Transitions Online (www.tol.cz) The TOL Annual Survey is the most thorough guide to the countries of Central and Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and the former Soviet Union; the CD-ROM contains extensive features on each of the 28 countries covered, presenting trends and developments in these post-communist societies for the previous year, with an element of forecast incorporated. In addition, the CD-ROM features the most important articles published by TOL about each country during the previous year, as well as maps, statistics, and other country-specific online resources. For details and to purchase, please visit this link: http://store.tol.cz/look/store/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=11&NrIssue=1&NrSection=4&NrArticle=8252 Offer valid for a limited time! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Opinions: St. Petersburg Summit: Beyond Mending Fences As the fog of Iraq slowly lifts, what Bush’s neoconservatism and Putin’s romantic pragmatism have in common should become the basis of the two countries’ own postwar settlement. by Peter Lavelle 30 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=3&NrArticle=9643 Ukraine: Ukraine’s Deceptive Constitutional Reform President Kuchma’s spurious reform proposals are a step back for Ukraine. The opposition would do well to block them. by Ivan Khokhotva 30 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=3&NrArticle=9642 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Columns: Notes from St. Petersburg: An Accordion for Goats? Local business may not need Konstaninovsky Palace much, but they have still footed the $280 million bill for the Russian president’s seaside residence. by Vladimir Kovalev 29 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=17&NrArticle=9631 Notes from Tartu: Fast-Falling Angels Whether a scandal, a tempest in a teacup, or a sign of Estonians’ ‘primitive’ demands on politicians, a minor traffic offense is teaching Estonia’s young government the dangers of camping on the moral high-ground. by Raimo Poom 29 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=17&NrArticle=9630 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Serbia’s Roma Refugees Living Out of Sight Roma refugees eke out a makeshift living on the fringes of Serbian society. by Vesna Misic 28 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/CER/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=14&NrIssue=48&NrSection=5&NrArticle=9615 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lithuania’s Jan Palach The Secret of Kaunas A young man's anguished protest brings a city to tears and students onto the streets chanting anti-Soviet slogans. Budapest '56? Prague '69? Guess again. by Rokas M. Tracevskis 23 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/CER/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=14&NrIssue=48&NrSection=5&NrArticle=9580 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Special Package: Editors' Choice Russia: Unaccounted-for Happiness Russians spend much more than they officially earn--and both legal and unaccounted-for income is spent immediately. From Ezhenedelny Zhurnal. by Mikhail Berger 30 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/wire/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=10&NrIssue=715&NrSection=1&NrArticle=9644 Croatia: A Road of No Return Across Croatia, the number of illegal hazardous waste disposal areas is increasing. From Feral Tribune. by Boris Raseta 28 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/wire/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=10&NrIssue=713&NrSection=1&NrArticle=9620 Russia: Fire After Fire Day by day, year after year, Russia is destroying its forests. From Ezhenedelny Zhurnal. by Boris Zhukov 27 May 2003 http://www.tol.cz/look/wire/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=10&NrIssue=712&NrSection=1&NrArticle=9602 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Our Take: The Great Game in the Far East The more important summit in St. Petersburg was arguably not between Putin and Bush, but between Putin and China’s new president. With the world’s only superpower in town, perhaps it was inevitable that the headlines from the mass gathering of heads of state for St. Petersburg’s party were dominated by U.S.-Russia relations. But arguably the Bush-Putin meeting was less important than it might have seemed after the Iraq fallout. The war over the war in Iraq has now been reduced mainly to sniping about reconstruction. North Korea is of course a potential sore point, but Pyongyang has said it considers its nuclear program to be a matter for it and the United States alone, dashing Russia’s attempts at diplomacy. And as for Iran, some clashes may be expected, but it is plausible to argue, as Nikolai Zlobin of the Washington-based Center for Defense Information does, that “now the task for Russia is to save face.” The discussions between George W. Bush and Vladimir Putin may have been less important, in fact, than Putin’s summit with China’s new president, Hu Jintao. Both declared themselves supporters of a “multipolar world”--in the wake of the Iraq war, the euphemism of choice for a world not dominated by the United States. And both sides proved it with actions: Hu chose Moscow, rather than Washington, as his first foreign port of call after assuming the leadership of China, while Putin gave the go-ahead for a huge new oil pipeline to China rather than choosing an alternative pipeline to Japan. We were therefore treated to the spectacle of two great games in play at the same time: one for a multipolar world, the other for Far Eastern oil. Thanks to the volatility of the Muslim world, oil is now a stronger geopolitical playing card for Russia than ever. Japan, which imports all its oil, has embarked on an active search for new sources outside the Middle East and in 2002 imported some Russian oil for the first time since 1978. Diversification is also a new mantra for China, which became a net importer of oil in 1993 and has since become the world’s third-largest importer. Japanese companies now partner some of the Western giants in Siberia, while China has been making a big bid for a stake in the development of Central Asian oil, with the possibility of a pipeline from Kazakhstan. The attractions of Russia as an alternative source have only been enhanced by the discovery in recent years of an oil field near Angarsk, west of Siberia’s Lake Baikal, that reportedly has reserves equal to those of Kuwait. For Russia, the choice of a pipeline from Angarsk either to Daiqing, China, or to Nakhodka, a port on the coast of the Sea of Japan, is the choice between serving one huge market (China), or supplying up to a quarter of Japan’s oil needs and a variety of rich markets along Asia’s Pacific coast. And, despite the phenomenal size of the Angarsk oil field, it really is being presented as a choice: Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov argues that there will be insufficient oil in the foreseeable future to justify both pipelines. >From the outside, the choice between Japan and China would seem to have been no competition. Japan’s relations with Russia still founder in a historical time warp because of the dispute about the status of the Kuril Islands that Russia seized during World War II. In contrast, Sino-Russian relations are racing ahead and picking up speed. In 2001, Jiang Zemin, Hu’s predecessor, signed a friendship treaty with Russia, symbolically opening a new page in a relationship that, during the Soviet era, was by turns friendly, hostile, and cool. Trade between the two countries has doubled in less than a decade, and China in 2002 accounted for more than half of Russia’s arms exports, according to the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies. Now, China has for the first time assumed leadership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a six-member group that currently focuses on issues such as terrorism, separatism, and extremism in Central Asia. An easy political choice, then, for Russia, but also a canny one in the broader context of relations with the United States. In 1997, U.S. President Bill Clinton began calling China a “strategic partner,” going on to become the first U.S. president to visit China since the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989. Since 2000, Bush has changed the wording to “strategic competitor.” In choosing the Chinese route, Putin has taken an important step toward a “multipolar world” by forming what is a long-term strategic partnership with China and effectively promising to fuel the next stage of China’s economic development. The hand of supporters of a “multipolar world” has therefore been strengthened, while the stakes have risen for the United States and its allies in the other great game, in the Caspian and Central Asia. With much of the oil from eastern Siberia going to China, they should be even more concerned to ensure that oil from Kazakhstan flows westward, not eastward--and that Russia will have less say in control of Caspian oil. Conceivably, the West might ultimately get the better of Russia in the Caspian and Central Asia, but it would also be a tricky victory, forcing it into a commitment to regions that, like the Middle East, are deeply volatile and in which Russia is bound to retain major influence. Meanwhile, back in the East, Russia is still keeping its bargaining chips with Japan and the Western-style economies of the Pacific. It continues to hold out the possibility of a pipeline to the Sea of Japan. Having lost out once, Japan should logically be even more keen to up its already very generous offer to foot the entire bill for the construction of the pipeline to Nakhodka. At the same time, Russia can--when needed--always pull out one old card, the status of the Kuril Islands, or play on Japanese fears that Russia might instead build a pipeline to South Korea. So, the honors for this round of the Far Eastern Great Game go to Russia. But most of all they go to China for securing a much sought-after supply line. As Russia provides the oil that drives China forward, Putin will be able to contemplate the neglected truth about his vision of a multipolar world. It is China, not Russia, that has the power to become an alternative pole to the United States. Once junior to Russia/the Soviet Union, China is now the stronger and more dynamic of the two. The fundamental difference comes down to their economies: China’s is now five times larger than Russia’s. If Russia does want a multipolar world, it will need to double its GDP in 10 years, as Putin wants to do. That requires average growth of about 7 percent a year. Difficult, but China, for one, has shown that it is possible. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Job Announcement: Czech and Slovak Correspondents http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=14&NrArticle=9476 Belarus Correspondents http://www.tol.cz/look/TOLnew/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=46&NrSection=14&NrArticle=9523 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Advertisement: The Central Asian and Southern Caucasian Freedom of Expression Network has recently launched an English-language website at http://www.cascfen.org devoted to news on the media and about local journalists. Network members from throughout the region provide daily updates, supplementing other sources of freedom of expression news. Your feedback is welcome by visiting http://www.cascfen.org. .................................................... The TOL newsletter is published by Transitions Online--The leading news provider covering Central and Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and the former Soviet Union. Check us out at http://www.tol.cz The TOL newsletters reach thousands of subscribers every week. If you want to get in touch with them please contact us at marketing@tol.cz for more information or visit http://archive.tol.cz/mediakit/index.html TOL publications: Transitions Online (TOL)....... http://www.tol.cz Balkan Reconstruction Report... http://balkanreport.tol.cz The TOL Wire................... http://wire.tol.cz Central Europe Review.......... http://culture.tol.cz Knowledge Net (country files) . http://knowledgenet.tol.cz Russian Mirror................. http://www.tolrus.ru .......................................................... -- Transitions Online - Intelligent Eastern Europe Copyright: Transitions Online 2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To UNSUBSCRIBE from the TOL Weekly Newsletter, please go to http://subscribers.tol.cz/newman/unsubscribel.php?idsubs=797532 To SWITCH TO HTML formatted newsletters, please go to http://subscribers.tol.cz/newman/preferences.php?idsubs=797532&htmlmail=Y From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 16:13:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2AA337B405 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.adventive.com (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net [64.35.154.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2257643F93 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ASK-TAXMAMA@LIST.ADVENTIVE.COM) Received: from spudmonk (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net) by list.adventive.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <1.0030A095@list.adventive.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:12:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:12:57 -0700 From: "L-Soft list server at Adventive (1.8d)" To: Dag-Smorgreff Erling X-LSV-ListID: ASK-TAXMAMA Message-Id: <20030602231327.2257643F93@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: You have been removed from the ask-taxmama list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: asktaxmama@asktaxmama.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 23:13:28 -0000 Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:12:57 This is a ListServ autoresponder. You have been removed by Adventive Admin from the ask-taxmama list (Ask TaxMama - Tax Information With A Mother's Touch) and should receive no further mail from this list. We have appreciated having you as a subscriber. You are welcome to return anytime! Or drop by and read Ask TaxMama online http://taxmama.com/AskTaxMama/ The new issue posts each weekend. Feel free to take advantage of our tools and resources, too. http://taxmama.com/tools/ Good bye and good luck in all your endeavors. Best wishes, Eva Rosenberg, MBA, EA Your TaxMama http://taxmama.com http://wz.com/business/ReducingTaxes.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 2 16:13:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF4337B40D for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.adventive.com (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net [64.35.154.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6D843FB1 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from spudmonk (e-64-35-154-130.empnet.net) by list.adventive.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <4.002E0B5C@list.adventive.com>; Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:13:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 16:13:08 -0700 From: "L-Soft list server at Adventive (1.8d)" To: Dag-Smorgreff Erling Message-Id: <20030602231327.BB6D843FB1@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Subject: Message ("Your access to LISTSERV has just been suspended...") X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 23:13:28 -0000 Your access to LISTSERV has just been suspended by admin@ADVENTIVE.COM. Commands and postings from you will be ignored from now on. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 00:14:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB86C37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wall.polstra.com (wall-gw.polstra.com [206.213.73.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE85343FCB for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from wall.polstra.com (localhost.polstra.com [127.0.0.1]) by wall.polstra.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h547ERYw033616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cyrus@localhost) by wall.polstra.com (8.12.3p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h547ERJY033615 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 00:14:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: wall.polstra.com: cyrus set sender to <> using -f Message-ID: Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 00:14:27 -0700 X-Sieve: cmu-sieve 2.0 From: To: In-Reply-To: <200306040714.h547ECYv033613@wall.polstra.com> Auto-Submitted: auto-replied (vacation) Subject: Re: 45443-343556 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:14:30 -0000 This is an automatic reply. John Polstra is on vacation and away from his e-mail. When he returns, he might reply to your mail. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 4 17:44:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD1037B401 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D320B43FAF for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 17:44:56 -0700 (PDT) probe-1054769761-1054773896-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com) X-eGroups-Return: probe-1054769761-1054773896-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.176] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2003 00:44:56 -0000 Message-ID: Date: 05 Jun 2003 00:44:56 -0000 From: Yahoo!Groups To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Please reactivate your Yahoo! Groups account X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: confirm-unbounce-1054769761-77923465-34330@yahoogroups.co.uk List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 00:44:57 -0000 Hello, You belong to one or more email groups provided by Yahoo! Groups (uk.groups.yahoo.com). Email from these groups can be recognized by looking for a group name in the message Subject line, like [pet-owners] or [music-fans]. Recently, messages sent to you from Yahoo! Groups have been returned to us as undeliverable. To prevent any problems with your email service, we have temporarily turned your Yahoo! Groups account OFF. If you are reading this message now, the delivery problem appears to be fixed. However, we won't know that the problem is fixed until you tell us. To turn your Yahoo! Groups account ON: - Please REPLY to this message. 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Groups is subject to http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 08:43:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCBF37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (bgp565619bgs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net [68.38.236.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9DB43F85 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 08:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org) Received: from i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h55FhNaT011795 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 11:43:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (8.12.9/8.12.7/Submit) id h55FhN2N011794 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 11:43:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200306051543.h55FhN2N011794@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 11:43:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Phone-Number: 732-335-5432 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99b (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Simh simulators on FreeBSD with Ethernet Support X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 15:43:26 -0000 Anyone ever get simh working for Vax emulation with ethernet support on FreeBSD? It appears the netbsd and openbsd code is different than FreeBSD as far as this goes. Thanks, Bill Pechter -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 13:52:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D35B37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB3443FAF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 13:52:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h55KqHr00396 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 16:52:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 16:52:17 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 Subject: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 20:52:21 -0000 Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has been doing for years? I personally find "i386" ugly and antiquated-sounding; many people find it confusing and misleading. (Yes I know it's come up on the lists before. I haven't seen any good answers though, "for historical reasons" isn't a good answer.) R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:18:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B1F37B404 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 14:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-138.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4796943FD7 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h55LIpp7005993; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 17:18:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EDFB3BB.7090300@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 17:18:51 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:18:54 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then > at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has > been doing for years? > > I personally find "i386" ugly and antiquated-sounding; many people > find it confusing and misleading. (Yes I know it's come up on the > lists before. I haven't seen any good answers though, "for historical > reasons" isn't a good answer.) If it's that important to you, you're welcome to find all the places in the source and doc that it's used, correct them and submit patches. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing it changed. If you don't have the time to do such work, or you've got other features you'd rather see added first, then I'm guessing you just answered your own question. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 14:44:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ECB37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 14:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atomic.sparklist.com (atomic.sparklist.com [216.91.57.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4B9043FAF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 14:44:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bounce-message-10983079@atomic.sparklist.com) Message-Id: X-sparklist-type: hello From: "SparkLIST.com" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 14:44:07 -0700 Subject: Welcome to EFT News and Innovations X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "SparkLIST.com" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:44:13 -0000 Thank you for subscribing to the EFT News and Innovations Newsletter. 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Thank you, Pat Carrington, Editor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:00:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4415E37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A8D43F75 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h55M0e100571; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:00:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:00:40 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030605180040.A562@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3EDFB3BB.7090300@potentialtech.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12sm cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:00:46 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > > more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then > > at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has > > been doing for years? > > If it's that important to you, you're welcome to find all the places in > the source and doc that it's used, correct them and submit patches. Are you a committer, in particular a committer responsible for this? In other words, can your response be taken in any way as "official"? I wouldn't mind submitting patches to the doc project, if someone in charge of this asks. But obviously I can't submit patches for something like the release notes and publicity material of FreeBSD 5.1 (which is what I'm really talking about). Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:12:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FC337B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-138.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392BC43FDF for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h55MCTp7006015; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 18:12:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EDFC04D.4080203@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:12:29 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030605180040.A562@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20030605180040.A562@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:12:31 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: >>Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >>>Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture >>>as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any >>>more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then >>>at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has >>>been doing for years? >> >>If it's that important to you, you're welcome to find all the places in >>the source and doc that it's used, correct them and submit patches. > > Are you a committer, in particular a committer responsible for this? > In other words, can your response be taken in any way as "official"? No. > I wouldn't mind submitting patches to the doc project, if someone in > charge of this asks. But obviously I can't submit patches for > something like the release notes and publicity material of FreeBSD 5.1 > (which is what I'm really talking about). I misunderstood. I read your original post to be referring to the docs and code and things like the kernel config file. Why it's still used in publicity material, I don't know. And to your unwritten complaint. Yes, that last answer was snippy. I apologize. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 5 15:21:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5323B37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fbfguns.com (adsl-64-123-156-89.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net [64.123.156.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B1A43FE1 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 2003 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@fbfguns.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 17:21:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3BD4A5842C8AE2428158AB1EE6DCC3774E61@mail.fbfguns.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? Thread-Index: AcMrr5SKQmW0EP9RTh2s1YVxQJzNqwAAQhKwAAAKtJA= From: "Jason Burgess" To: Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:21:40 -0000 But, if we get it changed in the code and in the docs, then people will start to refer to it the new way. That may take years for it to sink into people heads though. Jason Burgess -----Original Message----- From: Bill Moran [mailto:wmoran@potentialtech.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 5:12 PM To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: >>Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >>>Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture >>>as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any >>>more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then >>>at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has >>>been doing for years? >> >>If it's that important to you, you're welcome to find all the places in >>the source and doc that it's used, correct them and submit patches. >=20 > Are you a committer, in particular a committer responsible for this? > In other words, can your response be taken in any way as "official"? No. > I wouldn't mind submitting patches to the doc project, if someone in > charge of this asks. But obviously I can't submit patches for > something like the release notes and publicity material of FreeBSD 5.1 > (which is what I'm really talking about). I misunderstood. I read your original post to be referring to the docs and code and things like the kernel config file. Why it's still used in publicity material, I don't know. And to your unwritten complaint. Yes, that last answer was snippy. I apologize. --=20 Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 00:28:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC0F37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 00:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7F843F3F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 00:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 4E0EC530E; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:28:18 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:28:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Thu, 5 Jun 2003 16:52:17 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:28:21 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > as i386 Because that's what everybody else calls it. > even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > more? They do. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 00:57:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936A237B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 00:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4D643F93 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 00:57:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0sj.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.147] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19OC6M-0003DG-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:57:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3EE04920.7B8EA51F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 00:56:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4b9b5d59b6aeca1756f3d2a987cd40817a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 07:57:37 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then > at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has > been doing for years? I believe the primary reason is the directories named "i386" in various places that, were they renamed, would require a repo-copy in order to maintain proper modification history information, and would additionally require Attic'ing in their current location under their current names to permit the building of historical releases from the release tags. People tend to oppose such changes on general principles, and on the adding of hours to a CVSup time over a 28K modem in Eastern Slobovia. Basically, rewriting history is hard, and the ability to recreate FreeBSD-3.2-RELEASE any time you want to is a compelling argument that someone would have to eat some undesirable overhead, merely to get a name changed, with no real technical benefit. It's kind of like changing the Daemon mascot to something else... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 02:44:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB79737B404 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 02:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta03ps.bigpond.com (mta03ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.157]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1288F43FCB for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 02:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian.pulsford@bigpond.com) Received: from thegn ([144.135.25.87]) by mta03ps.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HG200GRR0D9NL@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:43:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from ess-p-144-138-77-91.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.138.77.91]) by psmam07.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.2g 119/2902810); Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:43:57 +0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:44:17 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford In-reply-to: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> X-X-Sender: ianp@thegn.werod.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20030606193615.L26813@thegn.werod.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:44:59 -0000 I know what is meant by "i386" as do a zillion other people. 10 years ago so did the same people. If "i386" has gone out of fashion because "ia64" is about to hit mainstream, then it seems a load of work for something whose fate is only *about* to become "2nd-streamish". Ian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 06:35:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2349337B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 06:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4FF43F85 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 06:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cev158.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.168] helo=greenrondo.a.la.turk) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19OHNP-0000OO-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 06:35:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 9525 invoked by uid 1002); 6 Jun 2003 13:35:28 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:35:28 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030606133528.GA9414@online.fr> References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <3EE04920.7B8EA51F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3EE04920.7B8EA51F@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:35:28 -0000 Terry Lambert said on Jun 6, 2003 at 00:56:16: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > > more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then > > at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has > > been doing for years? > > I believe the primary reason is the directories named "i386" > in various places that, were they renamed, would require a > repo-copy in order to maintain proper modification history > information, Yes, I'm not suggesting renaming them. Others (including linux) use i386 internally, for similar reasons I imagine, but the distributors don't call it that in their release notes (you know, the stuff meant for the general public, newcomers, management, etc, not necessarily people who read freebsd-current). Most people even today only know windows, have only foggy ideas of linux, and don't know BSD at all. I don't see why we should further confuse them with talk of i386. R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 07:21:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B9D37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7B543F3F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 19OI5X-000OJe-Tb; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:21:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:21:03 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20030606142103.GF49662@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <3EE04920.7B8EA51F@mindspring.com> <20030606133528.GA9414@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030606133528.GA9414@online.fr> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:21:04 -0000 On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 09:35:28AM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Most people even today only know windows, have only foggy ideas of > linux, and don't know BSD at all. I don't see why we should further > confuse them with talk of i386. And you think windows users, managers, office workers, etc. - they know what an IA-32 architecture is do they? But get confused when talking about i386? Impressive. Most of the office workers I've worked within in the past didn't know the difference between RAM and hard disk storage. Your office must have come along quite a way. If you know what IA-32 is, but don't know what i386 is, you're not somebody who should be reading the documentation that refers to the phrase "i386" without qualification of what it means. For example: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-pre.html makes it prefectly clear that an i386 is a PC. Where exactly do you perceive there being a problem? The MD of a local company is not likely to want to know how to re-build his kernel, so won't care whether we refer to i386 or ia32 - he just wants a box that works. Of course, if you really want to do it, I'm sure the doc project will take your patches and amend their policy to make it clear that the PCs will be referred to as IA-32 rather than i386. I just don't see the point, as it is likely to cause more ambiguity within the FBSD crowd than it would solve. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 07:42:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA3337B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B3F43F85 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:42:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.229.118]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net ESMTP <20030606144213.VGEZ21544.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 08:42:13 -0600 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:41:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: <20030606133528.GA9414@online.fr> Message-ID: <20030606074105.D26939@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <3EE04920.7B8EA51F@mindspring.com> <20030606133528.GA9414@online.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 14:42:14 -0000 On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Most people even today only know windows, have only foggy ideas of > linux, and don't know BSD at all. I don't see why we should further > confuse them with talk of i386. If they only know windows, have only foggy ideas of linx and don't know BSD at all then it doesn't matter. Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 08:55:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30BCB37B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A9843F3F for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 08:55:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19OJYh-000JHV-BD; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:55:15 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 16:55:15 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030606155515.GA74073@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Paul Robinson , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <3EE04920.7B8EA51F@mindspring.com> <20030606133528.GA9414@online.fr> <20030606142103.GF49662@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030606142103.GF49662@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:55:26 -0000 --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:21:03PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 09:35:28AM -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >=20 > > Most people even today only know windows, have only foggy ideas of > > linux, and don't know BSD at all. I don't see why we should further > > confuse them with talk of i386. >=20 > And you think windows users, managers, office workers, etc. - they know w= hat > an IA-32 architecture is do they? But get confused when talking about i38= 6? > Impressive. Most of the office workers I've worked within in the past did= n't > know the difference between RAM and hard disk storage. Your office must h= ave > come along quite a way. >=20 > If you know what IA-32 is, but don't know what i386 is, you're not somebo= dy=20 > who should be reading the documentation that refers to the phrase "i386"= =20 > without qualification of what it means. For example: >=20 > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-pre.html >=20 > makes it prefectly clear that an i386 is a PC. Where exactly do you perce= ive=20 > there being a problem? The MD of a local company is not likely to want to= =20 > know how to re-build his kernel, so won't care whether we refer to i386 o= r=20 > ia32 - he just wants a box that works. >=20 > Of course, if you really want to do it, I'm sure the doc project will tak= e=20 > your patches and amend their policy to make it clear that the PCs will be= =20 > referred to as IA-32 rather than i386. I just don't see the point, as it = is=20 > likely to cause more ambiguity within the FBSD crowd than it would solve. Actually, I'd oppose that change. Ceri --=20 User: DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR? Iniaes: Sure, I can accept all forms of payment. -- www.chatterboxchallenge.com --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+4LljocfcwTS3JF8RAr3BAKC29pEPNTKFALtvPggdZz1yclxDJQCgleSi wnAOjC51e9fBji3BdRP15xc= =Tlev -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 09:54:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB16237B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E70643F75 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h56GsH103513; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:54:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:54:17 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.9-12smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:54:26 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > The MD of a local company is not likely to want to > know how to re-build his kernel, Typical stupid red-herring answer one gets. I already said more than once that I'm referring to things like release notes and press information. FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/releases/4.8R/announce.html FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE supports the i386 and alpha architectures... Distributions for the i386 are available now. [no mention whatever of better-than-i386 processors] Debian (to take a random example): http://www.debian.org/ports/ Intel x86 / IA-32 (``i386'')... Linux was originally developed for the Intel 386 processors, hence the short name. Debian supports all IA-32 processors, made by Intel, AMD, Cyrix and other manufacturers. Now, which sounds better and more meaningful? And what exactly is the harm with going the Debian way in this respect? R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 12:19:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0E837B404 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uk.alink.co.za (mail.alink.co.za [213.253.1.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F1443F93 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 12:19:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from george@alink.co.za) Received: from [217.158.80.249] (helo=D9NLZD0J) by mail.uk.alink.co.za with smtp (Exim 3.36 #5) id 19OMkO-000N87-00; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 20:19:32 +0100 Message-ID: <007501c32c60$682fee00$0100000a@D9NLZD0J> From: "George Barnett" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 20:18:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 19:19:47 -0000 From: "Rahul Siddharthan" > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then > at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has > been doing for years? The reason it's done this way is so that once every 6 months there can be a mundane argument on various lists about some minor cosmetic name that non-geeks don't care about anyway. :-) /bad week --george From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 6 19:13:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A81637B401 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 19:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC30343FA3 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 19:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D1835527A7; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:43:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:43:09 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20030607021309.GC86974@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CblX+4bnyfN0pR09" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:13:14 -0000 --CblX+4bnyfN0pR09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, 5 June 2003 at 16:52:17 -0400, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > more? There's a difference between the i386 architecture, which is still going strong, and the Intel 80386 processor, which is obsolete for normal applications. > Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then at > least in the release notes and documentation,=20 There are so many places in the sources which use the name that it would be very difficult. And the name is still correct, more correct than x86. > as everyone else has been doing for years? They have? I hadn't noticed. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --CblX+4bnyfN0pR09 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+4Uo1IubykFB6QiMRAvkdAJ4hzKB2VXmdrlzA+kJVE+aKpiWucQCfYHLV fRxbgWUthvDR7nhJUqJ/lQU= =WBVB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CblX+4bnyfN0pR09-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 02:18:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C6737B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 02:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castle.jp.FreeBSD.org (castle.jp.FreeBSD.org [210.226.20.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3718743F93 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 02:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1])h579HrY77809; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:17:53 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) In-Reply-To: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> References: <20030606125417.A3489@online.fr> X-User-Agent: Mew/1.94.2 Emacs/21.3 X-FaceAnim: (-O_O-)(O_O- )(_O- )(O- )(- -)( -O)( -O_)( -O_O)(-O_O-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Dispatcher: imput version 20030322(IM144) Lines: 16 From: Makoto Matsushita To: rsidd@online.fr Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:17:51 +0900 Message-Id: <20030607181751T.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 09:18:05 -0000 rsidd> Debian (to take a random example): rsidd> http://www.debian.org/ports/ rsidd> Intel x86 / IA-32 (``i386'')... (other messages deleted) Please note that "(Put your favorite OS except FreeBSD) calls it ia32, so should we" is bad idea, since FreeBSD is FreeBSD :-) And, the message you mention is that "i386" is very common name for PCs, they cannot simply says it's x86 and/or IA-32. We're not teacheres of computer architecture; the name should be common to us, rather than strict meanings. -- - Makoto `MAR' Matsushita From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 06:48:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2759437B404 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 06:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2253443FAF for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 06:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cev158.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.168] helo=greenrondo.a.la.turk) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Oe3k-0002vm-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2003 06:48:40 -0700 Received: (qmail 14107 invoked by uid 1002); 7 Jun 2003 13:48:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 09:48:41 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Message-ID: <20030607134841.GA13998@online.fr> References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <20030607021309.GC86974@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030607021309.GC86974@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 13:48:44 -0000 Greg 'groggy' Lehey said on Jun 7, 2003 at 11:43:09: > > Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then at > > least in the release notes and documentation, > > There are so many places in the sources which use the name that it > would be very difficult. And the name is still correct, more correct > than x86. If you really believe that (i386 is "more correct" than x86), the front page of http://www.FreeBSD.org should be changed too -- the first line there refers to "x86 compatible... architectures" (unlike every other FreeBSD document I've seen). Let's at least be consistent... Whoever wrote the front page recognised that many newcomers will read "i386" as a pessimisation (eg, will imagine that it doesn't support Pentium-specific optimisations or newer instructions, MMX, SSE etc). Perhaps the same person tried to change some of the docs / release notes templates and failed, or didn't try because he foresaw the reaction ("if other people don't know what we mean by i386 architecture, that's their problem"). R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 10:51:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC0C737B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAAF43FB1 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-231-22-47.client.attbi.com[12.231.22.47]) by attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003060717511800200dmlspe>; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 17:51:18 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h57HomKc074120; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.5/Submit) id h57HobAA074117; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <20030607021309.GC86974@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030607134841.GA13998@online.fr> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Jun 2003 10:50:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030607134841.GA13998@online.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 17:51:20 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Whoever wrote the front page recognised that many newcomers will read > "i386" as a pessimisation (eg, will imagine that it doesn't support This thread reminds me of the time I tried to get dates like "1991" off the footers of displayed man pages (e.g., man(1)) for fear of what newcomers/outsiders might think. Or when I tried to replace some system programmer's jargon with something newcomers are more apt to understand. Which brings to mind a great song from one of the few plays I've seen: "Tradition!", from "The Fiddler on the Roof". Now, tradition has it's good uses, but in too many cases it's just a cheap excuse for unatractive motives like the desire to remind others of one's glorious past or the desire to consider others stupid because they don't understand one's jargon. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 11:34:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD5C37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa-plum1b-166.pit.adelphia.net (pa-plum1b-138.pit.adelphia.net [24.53.161.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DC443F85 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 11:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com (working [172.16.0.95]) h57IYbp7007222; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:34:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Message-ID: <3EE2303D.2040700@potentialtech.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:34:37 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> <20030607021309.GC86974@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20030607134841.GA13998@online.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 18:34:40 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > >>Whoever wrote the front page recognised that many newcomers will read >>"i386" as a pessimisation (eg, will imagine that it doesn't support > > This thread reminds me of the time I tried to get dates like "1991" off > the footers of displayed man pages (e.g., man(1)) for fear of what > newcomers/outsiders might think. Or when I tried to replace some system > programmer's jargon with something newcomers are more apt to understand. > > Which brings to mind a great song from one of the few plays I've seen: > "Tradition!", from "The Fiddler on the Roof". > > Now, tradition has it's good uses, but in too many cases it's just a > cheap excuse for unatractive motives like the desire to remind others of > one's glorious past Now ... I don't think that's completely a bad thing > or the desire to consider others stupid because they > don't understand one's jargon. You know ... the way this year's been going ... about the only good thing I can say is that I've really enjoyed considering other people stupid because they don't understand my jargon. Please don't take that away from me ... once the debt collectors are through ... it'll be all I have left! ... only slightly sarcastic ... -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 7 18:38:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C5C37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FEB343FB1 for ; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h581bv8W095180; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h581bv0R095179; Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 18:37:56 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20030608013756.GA89985@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@freebsd.org References: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030605165217.A388@online.fr> cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Peeve: why "i386"? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 01:38:00 -0000 On Thu, Jun 05, 2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Why do all the BSDs continue to refer to the 32 bit Intel architecture > as i386 even when they typically won't even install on an i386 any > more? Why not call it x86, or ia32, if not in the kernel config then > at least in the release notes and documentation, as everyone else has > been doing for years? > > I personally find "i386" ugly and antiquated-sounding; many people > find it confusing and misleading. (Yes I know it's come up on the > lists before. I haven't seen any good answers though, "for historical > reasons" isn't a good answer.) The reasons for keeping with the i386 name have little to do with tradition, as some people have implied. i386 is the name of the *architecture*. The Intel 80386 was the first processor to implement that architecture, and the latest Pentium 4 also implements the architecture, albeit with a number of enhancements over the previous generation. The term IA-32 didn't come along until a few years ago. (1994 was when Intel first started work on the design of the Itanium, and the marketing people didn't fiddle around with the naming until a few years after that.) So here is a concise list of what I believe are the real reasons we don't use something else: - ``i386'' is correct, as explained above. - Others use it too, including (I think) Solaris, which doesn't support anything earlier than a Pentium. IIRC, the same is true of Linux. - Changing things now would be a major PITA, taking hours of repo-surgery and scads of patches. There's no good reason to do this. The fact that you personally find the term ``Ugly and antiquated sounding'' certainly isn't a justification, although I respect your opinion on the matter. If people want the documentation to say ``x86'' or ``IA-32'', that's another matter, but I would suggest that the documentation remain consistent with the code insofar as there is the potential for confusion.