From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 20 21:15:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A7537B401 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web40603.mail.yahoo.com (web40603.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE2A143FBF for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pjn0211@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030721041519.4165.qmail@web40603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [202.183.248.166] by web40603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:15:19 BST Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:15:19 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Supote=20Leelasupphakorn?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Ask about BSD's history. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 04:15:21 -0000 Hi, all I'm now interested in BSD's history and have read some of article from INTERNET. But because English isn't my mother language so I havn't cleared in the point of 1. What is the result of lawsuit between BSDi (maybe include UC Berkeley) and USL in the early of 1970s ? 2. The article I've read talk about six files. What's the matter ? 3. and anything else you would like to tell anyone. Could anyone explain me ? (Plain English is appreciated) Thanks in advances, ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 21 04:54:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581CA37B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 04:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [64.8.50.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BFBC43FBF for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 04:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030721115407.QHOJ340.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:54:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1BD45F.5070306@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:54:07 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Supote Leelasupphakorn References: <20030721041519.4165.qmail@web40603.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030721041519.4165.qmail@web40603.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ask about BSD's history. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:54:09 -0000 [Do NOT cross-post. Post to 1 mailing list at a time.] Supote Leelasupphakorn wrote: > Hi, all > > I'm now interested in BSD's history and have read > some of article from INTERNET. But because English > isn't my mother language so I havn't cleared > in the point of > > 1. What is the result of lawsuit between BSDi (maybe > include UC Berkeley) and USL in the early of 1970s ? That the BSDs can continue to do what they do and AT&T has no legal claim to their code. And this occurred in the early 1990s. > 2. The article I've read talk about six files. > What's > the matter ? Six files were determined to be proprietary. As part of the agreement, those six files were removed from the source and rewritten from scratch. Thus there is no longer any code in the codebase that is in danger of a lawsuit. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 21 12:17:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B86937B404 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57EF43F3F for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19egA8-0007TL-00; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:17:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:17:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:17:38 -0000 What does Unix for the enterprise mean to you? This morning, on the SCO media teleconference which I participated in[1], SCO's president (McBride) said "If all [misappropriated Unix source code] was removed, Linux would have no enterprise use." Their "enterprise" definitions mainly cover multi-processor. For example, they mentioned scaling to 32 processors. Does anyone use FreeBSD or NetBSD with many (over four) processors? Anyone use NetBSD or FreeBSD with 32 processors? (NetBSD's official release provides multi-processor support on some architectures.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ [1] http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/2003/07/News91.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 21 13:03:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910B837B401 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C292243F75 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6BA78CEC; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:03:28 +0200 (MEST) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 8A4CF96215; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:03:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id A2D2F95957; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:03:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 70981B822; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:03:24 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:03:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Jeremy C. Reed's message of "Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:17:31 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:03:30 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > [1] http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/2003/07/News91.html Ferchrissakes, the man's name is Linus not Linux. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 21 13:11:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F12837B401 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87CE243F85 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:11:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19eh0N-0007Zu-00; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:11:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:11:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:11:34 -0000 On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Dag-Erling [iso-8859-1] Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Ferchrissakes, the man's name is Linus not Linux. Thank you for the editing. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 21 13:39:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0569337B401 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EA343F75 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16031; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:39:12 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030721143722.02a44c20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:38:42 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:39:35 -0000 At 01:17 PM 7/21/2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: >What does Unix for the enterprise mean to you? Easy. "For the enterprise" == "For big corporate customers with pointy-haired bosses who are impressed by bells and whistles that they really don't need." --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 21 19:55:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463D137B401 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta02-srv.alltel.net (mta02.alltel.net [166.102.165.144]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4700D43F85 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:55:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gehicks@alltel.net) Received: from alltel.net ([69.40.16.246]) by mta02-srv.alltel.net with ESMTP id <20030722025501.TKID7705.mta02-srv.alltel.net@alltel.net>; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:55:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:55:00 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Brett Glass From: Jerry Hicks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030721143722.02a44c20@localhost> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:55:04 -0000 On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 04:38 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:17 PM 7/21/2003, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > >> What does Unix for the enterprise mean to you? > > Easy. "For the enterprise" == "For big corporate customers with > pointy-haired bosses who are impressed by bells and whistles > that they really don't need." > > --Brett Glass > In the case of one major Linux vendor's enterprise products they are even pitching 'longer release cycles' as a product feature. "We're repackaging stale open source software and charging you extra for it." Oddly enough, all the pointy hairs I know think that is a good thing. Cheers, Jerry Hicks From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 22 03:43:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 618) id 1FE5537B413; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 03:43:03 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardwre@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 03:43:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20030722104303.1FE5537B413@hub.freebsd.org> From: wpaul@FreeBSD.ORG (Bill Paul) Subject: nVidia nForce2 potential owners please read X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:43:03 -0000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 22 04:20:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E36937B409 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 04:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4539343FA3 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 04:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk ident=root) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19evCC-0002Xc-9e; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:20:40 +0100 Message-ID: <3F1D1D56.5060107@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:17:42 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jerry Hicks References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:20:30 -0000 Jerry Hicks wrote: > In the case of one major Linux vendor's enterprise products they are > even pitching 'longer release cycles' as a product feature. > > "We're repackaging stale open source software and charging you extra > for it." > > Oddly enough, all the pointy hairs I know think that is a good thing. There is a reason for this. PHBs within enterprises understand "risk" in terms of product development and the impact short release cycles can have. A longer release cycle implies to them that the company is taking longer over it due to testing and therefore the risk on deployment is lessened. In my opinion, this attitude should be applauded, rather than the "let's rush it out of the door right now and see what happens" appraoch. But then, my degree is software engineering, so I'm bound to say that... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 22 08:29:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 618) id 2F96537B401; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:29:51 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:29:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20030722152951.2F96537B401@hub.freebsd.org> From: wpaul@FreeBSD.ORG (Bill Paul) Subject: nVidia nForce2 potential owners please read (take two) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:29:51 -0000 This only made it to one list the first time, trying again. These newfangled computer things clearly can't be trusted. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, so, it occured to me recently to try to convince nVidia to cough up programming documentation for their MCP ethernet controller. However, in order to do that, I need to be able to show that there is in fact sufficient demand for a FreeBSD (or even NetBSD or OpenBSD) driver to make it worth their while. nVidia doesn't listen to end users, only OEMs, and if the OEMs don't ask for support for a given OS, then support will not materialize. My goal is to convince them to pull their heads far enough out from between their legs to realize that Linux is not the be-all, end-all of open source, and that just because OEMs haven't mentioned FreeBSD, NetBSD or OpenBSD by name doesn't mean there aren't people who want MCP ethernet support in BSD. For this, I need your help. What I need is to gather proof of demand. What I want you do to is e-mail me (oh god, I can't believe I'm setting myself up for this) if: - You wanted to purchase a computer system with an nVidia nForce2 chipset but _didn't_ once you realized there was no BSD driver support for the on-board ethernet. - You bought an nVidia nForce2 system without realizing the on-board ethernet wasn't supported in BSD, were really disappointed once you found out, and complained to the manufacturer _OR_ you wanted to complain but didn't (because you weren't sure who to complain to, or you didn't get around to it yet, or you forgot, or you were abducted by aliens, or your dog ate your homework, or whatever). - You are in a position to approve or recommend the purchase of a computer system (or several systems) for your company, research group, espionage organization or other institution with money to spend, but won't because there's no BSD driver support for the on-board ethernet. - You never heard of nVidia, the nForce2 or the MCP ethernet controller until I mentioned them, but now that you have, and you've gone out and searched the interweb or visited your local computer store, you think they're all really spiffy and would happily buy an nForce2 system, but will hold off until there's a BSD driver for the on-board ethernet. - You want to give me free large bags of cash. Do *NOT* e-mail me if: - You want me to help you transfer a large sum of money out of Nigeria or some other African nation. - You think I'm dying of cancer and my dying wish is to collect e-mails from all over the world. - You think I want to MAKE MONEY FAST (if I wanted to do that, I wouldn't be writing device drivers for free). - You work for SCO or the RIAA. I think you get the idea. Consider it a petition of sorts. All I need is an e-mail from you, with a line or two explaining your particular circumstances. If you did not buy an nForce2-based computer due to lack of BSD support, say so. If you did, but you were pissed by the lack of BSD support, say so. If you told your friends, relatives, cow-orkers or purchasing office not to buy nForce2-based computers because of the lack of BSD support, say so. Cite the OEM vendor of the computer (or computer) and the model (or models) where appropriate. If more than one computer was involved, say how many. Every lost sale or dissatisfied customer I can present as evidence makes it that much easier to convince nVidia to unclench its tight... fists... and provide the documentation needed to write a BSD driver. NOTE: Please do make up phony e-mails just to bloat the figures or or cobble together a perl script to send me hundreds of auto-generated messages from forged addresses. Play nice, you scum. So, send your cards and letters to wpaul@freebsd.org. And don't be afraid to spread the word. Ask other people on other mailing lists. Ask your friends. Ask your enemies. Ask not what your OS can do for you: ask what you can do for your OS. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (510) 749-2329 | Senior Engineer, Master of Unix-Fu wpaul@windriver.com | Wind River Systems ============================================================================= "If stupidity were a handicap, you'd have the best parking spot." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 22 08:45:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AF937B401 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C2EB43F3F for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 08:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaeru@pd.jaring.my) Received: from unknown (HELO ?219.95.61.195?) (khairil?yusof@219.95.61.195 with plain) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2003 15:45:11 -0000 From: Khairil Yusof To: Jerry Hicks In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-E8ZllKoEAvcbdpC8JLfx" Message-Id: <1058888706.721.169.camel@daemon.home.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.3 Date: 22 Jul 2003 23:45:07 +0800 cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:45:13 -0000 --=-E8ZllKoEAvcbdpC8JLfx Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2003-07-22 at 10:55, Jerry Hicks wrote: > In the case of one major Linux vendor's enterprise products they are=20 > even pitching 'longer release cycles' as a product feature. >=20 > "We're repackaging stale open source software and charging you extra=20 > for it." >=20 > Oddly enough, all the pointy hairs I know think that is a good thing. Sometimes it is a good thing. In my office where we use RH9, I don't let anybody install the latest OpenOffice 1.1rc, until it becomes release, and even then it would be an entire office upgrade to RH10 or whatever, AFTER some designated early adopters have given it a testing run to see whether it is worth it or not. Unless somebody volunteers to do all the installs, and then support all 30 workstations in which openoffice 1.1rc might break existing configurations (on their own time), it will not be fun and people end up not doing any work. Sure the software in RH9 might be older, but everything that was packaged is setup to work with each other, and works properly. On the other hand it can also be a pain for servers. RH AS 2.1 is annoying to manage as things are from RH circa 7.2. I like FreeBSD much better in this regard as I can better control due to ports, and the ease of upgrading base. -- "Optimized, readable, on time; Pick any two."=20 FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT i386=20 11:33PM up 23:31, 3 users, load averages: 0.47, 0.35, 0.34 --=-E8ZllKoEAvcbdpC8JLfx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA/HVwBDAqnLW/+/X8RApG8AKC/yB0GMt2fTaGPrL2QP/jRToN5ZACgsMRS cM3zn9LOD+PvLy6BBcXRoak= =le3l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-E8ZllKoEAvcbdpC8JLfx-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 22 12:41:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE57E37B401 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.acecape.com (mail1.acecape.com [66.114.74.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B3E43FCB for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@natserv.net) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6MJfngJ030632; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:41:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 15:42:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco J Reyes To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <3F1D1D56.5060107@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030722152223.S428@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <3F1D1D56.5060107@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Jerry Hicks cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:41:55 -0000 On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Paul Robinson wrote: > There is a reason for this. PHBs within enterprises understand "risk" in > terms of product development and the impact short release cycles can > have. >.... > Paul Robinson There is also deployment time. If you have thousands of computesr, you won't get done installing a release by the time a new one is out. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 22 22:22:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61F137B401 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0692643FA3 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:22:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfkao.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.209.88] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19fC4h-0003sx-00; Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:22:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1E1B3A.7EABD098@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:20:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3F1D1D56.5060107@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4fa57cb9236b3420e48d842d6b0725af1a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Jerry Hicks cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 05:22:10 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > Jerry Hicks wrote: > > In the case of one major Linux vendor's enterprise products they are > > even pitching 'longer release cycles' as a product feature. > > > > "We're repackaging stale open source software and charging you extra > > for it." > > > > Oddly enough, all the pointy hairs I know think that is a good thing. > > There is a reason for this. PHBs within enterprises understand "risk" in > terms of product development and the impact short release cycles can > have. A longer release cycle implies to them that the company is taking > longer over it due to testing and therefore the risk on deployment is > lessened. > > In my opinion, this attitude should be applauded, rather than the "let's > rush it out of the door right now and see what happens" appraoch. But > then, my degree is software engineering, so I'm bound to say that... There are many facets to longer release cycles: o You wait longer for fixes ("Fixed in the next release") o There's more time for doing testing o There's more time for cramming new features in, instead of doing testing o The vendor gets to save money on marketing, collateral material, etc.. o The vendor gets to lose money on a longer amortization schedule for an income stream that now has to last a lot longer o There are less people actually working on the product o The developers/designers/architects could "get it wrong", and you could end up with a Blivit (ten pounds of manure in a five pound sack) Etc.. The PHB's aren't always right, and they aren't always wrong. It's probably more correct, overall, to keep your developers in suspense, so that they can't try to look too far ahead; three months of some amount of uncertainty, where the developer's favorite feature may or may not get in if they let implementing it drag out too long is probably a good balance. It gives you a good three months in which the only code that's going to get done is the code that needs to get done to clear bugs, rather than cram in new features. My first boss out of college taught me something that I've never forgotten, and it's always stood me in good stead: "Eventually, a software company has to ship software". I may have left that company behind a long time ago (after helping take it from just 2 employees to 18 employees), but that lesson has really stuck with me and shaped my idea of acceptable practice. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 07:46:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87F637B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-97.apple.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4892743F75 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h6NEk9Nm021481; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com ([67.98.154.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h6NEk6Nr020127; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:46:10 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Terry Lambert From: Lawrence Sica In-Reply-To: <3F1E1B3A.7EABD098@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <66AA428D-BD1C-11D7-9CD0-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: Jerry Hicks cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:46:15 -0000 On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 01:20 AM, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The PHB's aren't always right, and they aren't always wrong. It's > probably more correct, overall, to keep your developers in suspense, > so that they can't try to look too far ahead; three months of some > amount of uncertainty, where the developer's favorite feature may > or may not get in if they let implementing it drag out too long is > probably a good balance. It gives you a good three months in which > the only code that's going to get done is the code that needs to > get done to clear bugs, rather than cram in new features. > Yes, I deal with this everyday. But in reverse, we have too short release cycles at work due to idiotic scheduling on the part of project managers and no enough manpower to deal with it. It is frustrating at times because I usually hear it first, not the product development people. > My first boss out of college taught me something that I've never > forgotten, and it's always stood me in good stead: "Eventually, a > software company has to ship software". I may have left that > company behind a long time ago (after helping take it from just 2 > employees to 18 employees), but that lesson has really stuck with > me and shaped my idea of acceptable practice. > That fits nicely with the "Good Enough" theory. Where at some point you have to decide that the product is good enough for a release so you can actually make some money. It is a tough balance though finding that sweet spot. --Larry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 08:10:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DF437B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.wobline.de (mail.wolfsburg.de [62.176.224.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C77343F75 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nils@thunderbridge.de) Received: from lily (dialin-pool1-11.wobline.de [62.176.226.11]) h6NFATLb026840 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:10:33 +0200 From: "Nils Holland" Organization: Ti Systems To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:10:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F1EC18E.3100.637B8E@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Description: Mail message body X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:10:43 -0000 Hi folks, the following has pretty little to do with FreeBSD, but I know that some really great people who have a clue about almost everything hang around here, and so I thought I'd ask. Well, I'm in the process of changing the nameservers for my domain thunderbridge.de. However, the German domain registry (DeNic) seems to have some strict requirements in that area, and so they are refusing me with the below error report: > The domain thunderbridge.de has NOT been updated. The following errors were > detected: > == SERVER ns1.loadbalanced.net. = ns1.loadbalanced.net.: SOA > value retry (900) does not fit in range [1800 ... 28800]. > ns1.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value refresh (1800) does not fit in range > [10000 ... 86400]. > == END = > == SERVER ns2.loadbalanced.net. = > ns2.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value retry (900) does not fit in range [1800 > ... 28800]. ns2.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value refresh (1800) does not fit > in range [10000 ... 86400]. > == END = Now comes the thing I don't understand: My provider says that they above complaint is about the retry / refresh values for the zone to which the nameservers belong (loadbalanced.net). But when I look that up...: |angel@gaffa> nslookup - ns1.loadbalanced.net |Default Server: ns1.loadbalanced.net |Address: 66.119.216.7 | |> set type=soa |> loadbalanced.net |Server: ns1.loadbalanced.net |Address: 66.119.216.7 | |loadbalanced.net | origin = ns1.loadbalanced.net | mail addr = postmaster.loadbalanced.net | serial = 2003072200 | refresh = 16384 (4h33m4s) | retry = 2048 (34m8s) | expire = 604800 (1W) | minimum ttl = 1800 (30M) |loadbalanced.net nameserver = ns1.loadbalanced.net |loadbalanced.net nameserver = ns2.loadbalanced.net |ns1.loadbalanced.net internet address = 66.119.216.7 |ns2.loadbalanced.net internet address = 65.39.221.8 ...it seems that their retry and refresh values are within the range that DeNIC wants. So I believ that they want to have the retry / refresh in range for the domain to be changed (thunderbridge.de), which is currently obviously not the case on the new nameservers: |> thunderbridge.de |Server: ns1.loadbalanced.net |Address: 66.119.216.7 | |thunderbridge.de | origin = ns1.loadbalanced.net | mail addr = postmaster.thunderbridge.de | serial = 2003072201 | refresh = 1800 (30M) | retry = 900 (15M) | expire = 604800 (1W) | minimum ttl = 1800 (30M) |thunderbridge.de nameserver = ns1.loadbalanced.net |thunderbridge.de nameserver = ns2.loadbalanced.net |ns1.loadbalanced.net internet address = 66.119.216.7 |ns2.loadbalanced.net internet address = 65.39.221.8 So, does anybody have a clue who's right here? Is DeNIC giving me errors because of the loadbalanced.net zone (as my provider believes) or because of the thunderbridge.de zone (as I believe)? And besides: Does anyone have a clue why the DeNIC has these requirements concerning refresh / retry? Nobody bothered when I moved an .org domain to exactly the same nameservers that DeNIC doesn't want to let me move my .de domain to... Bye, Nils From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 08:25:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA1E37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D0943F3F for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19fLUz-000EVm-4f; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:25:49 +0100 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:25:49 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Nils Holland Message-ID: <20030723152549.GX46900@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3F1EC18E.3100.637B8E@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6wUvnnXCCq76soZt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F1EC18E.3100.637B8E@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:25:57 -0000 --6wUvnnXCCq76soZt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 05:10:38PM +0200, Nils Holland wrote: > So, does anybody have a clue who's right here? Is DeNIC giving me=20 > errors because of the loadbalanced.net zone (as my provider=20 > believes) or because of the thunderbridge.de zone (as I believe)?=20 > And besides: Does anyone have a clue why the DeNIC has these=20 > requirements concerning refresh / retry? Nobody bothered when I=20 > moved an .org domain to exactly the same nameservers that DeNIC=20 > doesn't want to let me move my .de domain to... DeNIC are definitely complaining about thunderbridge.de. Ceri --=20 User: DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR? Iniaes: Sure, I can accept all forms of payment. -- www.chatterboxchallenge.com --6wUvnnXCCq76soZt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/Hqj8ocfcwTS3JF8RAkTjAKC1O/HCRpdl5wR0Wnx1rI2w2gb9GgCgvXAw thwVbuELz2Lao+av5ZfxMAg= =Nhzu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6wUvnnXCCq76soZt-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 09:16:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89FC37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417BD43FAF for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:16:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2003072316162501500o9r5be>; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:16:25 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6NGFWSE047507; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:15:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6NGFRIA047506; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Terry Lambert References: <3F1D1D56.5060107@iconoplex.co.uk> <3F1E1B3A.7EABD098@mindspring.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:15:26 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F1E1B3A.7EABD098@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:20:58 -0700") Message-ID: <0hel0h9q3l.l0h@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:16:32 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > My first boss out of college taught me something that I've never > forgotten, and it's always stood me in good stead: "Eventually, a > software company has to ship software". They way I frequently heard it: "Eventually, they have to shoot the engineers and ship the software." From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 09:24:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7DA37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [64.8.50.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8424643F75 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030723162411.DACW14801.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:24:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3F1EB6AA.10408@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:24:10 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat References: <3F1D1D56.5060107@iconoplex.co.uk> <3F1E1B3A.7EABD098@mindspring.com> <0hel0h9q3l.l0h@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <0hel0h9q3l.l0h@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:24:12 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > >>My first boss out of college taught me something that I've never >>forgotten, and it's always stood me in good stead: "Eventually, a >>software company has to ship software". > > They way I frequently heard it: "Eventually, they have to shoot the > engineers and ship the software." A friend once said to me, "Every artist should have someone assigned to him at birth whose job it is to take their work away from them at some point and force them to work on something new. Because artists are perfectionists, and without help they will work their entire life trying to get one work of art perfect, which is impossible." Don't know if that's a good idea or not ... but I've always considered programmers artists. The scenerio seems to apply. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 09:27:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5FB37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1D243F75 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:27:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6NGRRta020521; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:27:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F1EC18E.3100.637B8E@localhost> References: <3F1EC18E.3100.637B8E@localhost> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:27:22 +0200 To: "Nils Holland" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:27:57 -0000 At 5:10 PM +0200 2003/07/23, Nils Holland wrote: > the following has pretty little to do with FreeBSD, but I know > that some really great people who have a clue about almost > everything hang around here, and so I thought I'd ask. For DNS questions, I suggest the newsgroup comp.protocols.tcpip.domains. > Well, I'm in the process of changing the nameservers for my > domain thunderbridge.de. Okay. > However, the German domain registry > (DeNic) seems to have some strict requirements in that area, Indeed, they do. > So, does anybody have a clue who's right here? Is DeNIC giving me > errors because of the loadbalanced.net zone (as my provider > believes) or because of the thunderbridge.de zone (as I believe)? They're giving you errors based on the thunderbridge.de zone. However, I just checked both of these zones myself, and didn't find anything remotely like what you found: % dig de. soa ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> de. soa ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 61659 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 11, ADDITIONAL: 11 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;de. IN SOA ;; ANSWER SECTION: de. 86400 IN SOA dns.denic.de. ops.denic.de. 2003072346 10800 7200 3600000 86400 ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: de. 172055 IN NS SSS-US1.DE.NET. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-US2.denic.de. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-SE.denic.de. de. 172055 IN NS AUTH03.NS.DE.UU.NET. de. 172055 IN NS dns.denic.de. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-AT.denic.de. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-NL.denic.de. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-DE1.DE.NET. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-UK.DE.NET. de. 172055 IN NS DNS2.DE.NET. de. 172055 IN NS SSS-JP.denic.de. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: SSS-US1.DE.NET. 85848 IN A 206.65.170.100 SSS-US2.denic.de. 3069 IN A 167.216.196.131 SSS-SE.denic.de. 3008 IN A 192.36.144.211 AUTH03.NS.DE.UU.NET. 85665 IN A 192.76.144.16 dns.denic.de. 2885 IN A 81.91.161.5 SSS-AT.denic.de. 2926 IN A 193.171.255.34 SSS-NL.denic.de. 2987 IN A 193.0.0.237 SSS-DE1.DE.NET. 85746 IN A 193.159.170.187 SSS-UK.DE.NET. 85828 IN A 62.53.3.68 DNS2.DE.NET. 85705 IN A 81.91.162.5 SSS-JP.denic.de. 2966 IN A 210.81.13.179 ;; Query time: 217 msec ;; SERVER: 10.0.1.240#53(10.0.1.240) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:02:06 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 488 % dig @dns.denic.de. thunderbridge.de. any ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> @dns.denic.de. thunderbridge.de. any ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 44125 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;thunderbridge.de. IN ANY ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: thunderbridge.de. 86400 IN NS ns1.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 86400 IN NS ns2.modwest.com. ;; Query time: 41 msec ;; SERVER: 81.91.161.5#53(dns.denic.de.) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:03:00 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 81 % dig @ns1.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. any ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> @ns1.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. any ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 26592 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 3 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;thunderbridge.de. IN ANY ;; ANSWER SECTION: thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN SOA ns1.modwest.com. root.modwest.com. 2003051710 10800 3600 604800 7200 thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN NS ns2.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN NS ns1.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN MX 10 mail.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN A 216.129.251.2 ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.modwest.com. 3600 IN A 216.129.251.13 ns2.modwest.com. 3600 IN A 66.109.128.213 mail.modwest.com. 3600 IN A 216.129.251.30 ;; Query time: 216 msec ;; SERVER: 216.129.251.13#53(ns1.modwest.com.) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:04:08 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 207 % dig @ns2.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. any ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> @ns2.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. any ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 9058 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 3 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;thunderbridge.de. IN ANY ;; ANSWER SECTION: thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN SOA ns1.modwest.com. root.modwest.com. 2003051710 10800 3600 604800 7200 thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN NS ns1.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN NS ns2.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN MX 10 mail.modwest.com. thunderbridge.de. 7200 IN A 216.129.251.2 ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.modwest.com. 3600 IN A 216.129.251.13 ns2.modwest.com. 3600 IN A 66.109.128.213 mail.modwest.com. 3600 IN A 216.129.251.30 ;; Query time: 235 msec ;; SERVER: 66.109.128.213#53(ns2.modwest.com.) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:04:52 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 207 % dig -x 216.129.251.13 ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> -x 216.129.251.13 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 30331 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;13.251.129.216.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ;; ANSWER SECTION: 13.251.129.216.in-addr.arpa. 85088 IN PTR outlaw.modwest.com. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 13.251.129.216.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN NS outlaw.modwest.com. ;; Query time: 253 msec ;; SERVER: 195.238.2.21#53(195.238.2.21) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:13:44 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 118 % dig -x 66.109.128.213 ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> -x 66.109.128.213 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 12798 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;213.128.109.66.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ;; ANSWER SECTION: 213.128.109.66.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN PTR ns2.modwest.com. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 128.109.66.in-addr.arpa. 80356 IN NS paw.montana.com. 128.109.66.in-addr.arpa. 80356 IN NS dnsa.montana.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: paw.montana.com. 39487 IN A 66.109.128.3 ;; Query time: 221 msec ;; SERVER: 195.238.2.22#53(195.238.2.22) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:13:50 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 162 So, it would appear that thunderbridge.de is registered to modwest.com, not loadbalanced.net. Moreover, the SOA values that modwest.com is providing for this domain appear to be within the limits that DEnic appears to require. Unfortunately, it appears that ns1.modwest.com is a public recursive/caching nameserver, and therefore subject to cache pollution/poisoning, and this could be used to subvert any domain hierarchies that they may serve. The folks at modwest.com should also clean up their reverse DNS. However, at least they allow TCP connections, although they refuse zone transfers for this domain, so if there was an issue with UDP (maybe too much data to be returned in a single 512-byte packet), you could retry the query with TCP instead. I'm just guessing, but they appear to be running some version of BIND 8. Checking loadbalanced.net, we see: % dig net. soa ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> net. soa ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 65398 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 13, ADDITIONAL: 13 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;net. IN SOA ;; ANSWER SECTION: net. 172800 IN SOA a.gtld-servers.net. nstld.verisign-grs.com. 2003072300 1800 900 604800 86400 ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: net. 172800 IN NS k.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS g.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS j.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS c.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS a.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS e.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS l.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS i.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS f.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS m.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS d.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS b.gtld-servers.net. net. 172800 IN NS h.gtld-servers.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: k.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.52.178.30 g.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.42.93.30 j.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.48.79.30 c.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.26.92.30 a.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.5.6.30 e.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.12.94.30 l.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.41.162.30 i.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.43.172.30 f.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.35.51.30 m.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.55.83.30 d.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.31.80.30 b.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.33.14.30 h.gtld-servers.net. 172800 IN A 192.54.112.30 ;; Query time: 669 msec ;; SERVER: 10.0.1.240#53(10.0.1.240) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:11:51 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 508 % dig @a.gtld-servers.net. loadbalanced.net. any ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> @a.gtld-servers.net. loadbalanced.net. any ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 47865 ;; flags: qr rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;loadbalanced.net. IN ANY ;; ANSWER SECTION: loadbalanced.net. 172800 IN NS ns1.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 172800 IN NS ns2.loadbalanced.net. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: loadbalanced.net. 172800 IN NS ns1.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 172800 IN NS ns2.loadbalanced.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.loadbalanced.net. 172800 IN A 66.119.216.7 ns2.loadbalanced.net. 172800 IN A 65.39.221.8 ;; Query time: 125 msec ;; SERVER: 192.5.6.30#53(a.gtld-servers.net.) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:12:46 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 130 % dig @ns1.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. any ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> @ns1.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. any ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 60800 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;loadbalanced.net. IN ANY ;; ANSWER SECTION: loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN SOA ns1.loadbalanced.net. postmaster.loadbalanced.net. 2003072200 16384 2048 604800 1800 loadbalanced.net. 86400 IN NS ns1.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 86400 IN NS ns2.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN MX 10 loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 1800 IN A 65.39.221.17 ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN A 66.119.216.7 ns2.loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN A 65.39.221.8 ;; Query time: 199 msec ;; SERVER: 66.119.216.7#53(ns1.loadbalanced.net.) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:15:17 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 181 % dig @ns2.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. any ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> @ns2.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. any ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 43267 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;loadbalanced.net. IN ANY ;; ANSWER SECTION: loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN SOA ns1.loadbalanced.net. postmaster.loadbalanced.net. 2003072200 16384 2048 604800 1800 loadbalanced.net. 86400 IN NS ns1.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 86400 IN NS ns2.loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN MX 10 loadbalanced.net. loadbalanced.net. 1800 IN A 65.39.221.17 ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN A 66.119.216.7 ns2.loadbalanced.net. 3600 IN A 65.39.221.8 ;; Query time: 197 msec ;; SERVER: 65.39.221.8#53(ns2.loadbalanced.net.) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:15:37 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 181 % dig -x 66.119.216.7 ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> -x 66.119.216.7 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 25733 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;7.216.119.66.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ;; ANSWER SECTION: 7.216.119.66.in-addr.arpa. 3600 IN PTR loadbalanced.net. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 216.119.66.in-addr.arpa. 3600 IN NS ns2.digitaloasys.net. 216.119.66.in-addr.arpa. 3600 IN NS ns1.digitaloasys.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns2.digitaloasys.net. 171699 IN A 65.39.221.12 ns1.digitaloasys.net. 171699 IN A 66.119.216.2 ;; Query time: 568 msec ;; SERVER: 10.0.1.240#53(10.0.1.240) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:15:56 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 179 % dig -x 65.39.221.8 ; <<>> DiG 9.2.2 <<>> -x 65.39.221.8 ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 8200 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;8.221.39.65.in-addr.arpa. IN PTR ;; ANSWER SECTION: 8.221.39.65.in-addr.arpa. 2502 IN PTR ns2.loadbalanced.net. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 221.39.65.in-addr.arpa. 85302 IN NS ns1.loadbalanced.net. 221.39.65.in-addr.arpa. 85302 IN NS ns2.loadbalanced.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.loadbalanced.net. 2417 IN A 66.119.216.7 ns2.loadbalanced.net. 2437 IN A 65.39.221.8 ;; Query time: 32 msec ;; SERVER: 10.0.1.240#53(10.0.1.240) ;; WHEN: Wed Jul 23 18:16:06 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 140 These folks should also clean up their reverse DNS. The SOA values are a bit strange, and I think that the refresh is below the minimum allowed by DEnic. So, they would definitely need to clean that up if they were the cause of your problems. However, I don't think that this is the case. Unfortunately, these folks refuse all DNS queries via TCP, in violation of the protocol spec. If you were to have a query that could not be answered via UDP (or not answered fully, so the protocol spec says that query should be re-tried with TCP), then you would have a problem. From what I can tell, these people appear to be running djbdns, and have not configured it to be properly compliant with the DNS protocol spec. Personally, I would make every possible effort to avoid using a provider that does not properly implement important protocol specifications, especially with regards to the DNS. > And besides: Does anyone have a clue why the DeNIC has these > requirements concerning refresh / retry? Nobody bothered when I > moved an .org domain to exactly the same nameservers that DeNIC > doesn't want to let me move my .de domain to... The registry owner for each TLD can set whatever rules they want for the domains that people want to register. It happens that the DEnic folks want to insist that people more closely follow what is generally recommended to be good practice, and will refuse to register your domain if you fail their checks. Contrariwise, the registry for .org didn't care so much. Anyway, if you want to learn more about these zones and any potential problems they may have, I'd suggest running DNS debugging tools like "doc" and/or "dnswalk" on them. The results are likely to be pretty surprising. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 09:56:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAD637B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.wobline.de (mail.wolfsburg.de [62.176.224.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DCD43F3F for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nils@thunderbridge.de) Received: from lily (dialin-pool1-177.wobline.de [62.176.226.177]) h6NGuMLb009212 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:56:25 +0200 From: "Nils Holland" Organization: Ti Systems To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:55:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F1EDA3F.1998.C3F0EA@localhost> Priority: normal In-Reply-To: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Description: Mail message body X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:56:34 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > However, I just checked both of these zones myself, and didn't > find anything remotely like what you found [...] What you have found out is actually correct, and that's the problem, because you I want to change it. The nameservers currently "responsible" for thunderbridge.de are ns{1,2}.modwest.com. It has also been set up on ns{1,2}.loadbalanced.net, and my intention is update my record at DeNIC to reflect this, after which thunderbridge.de will be removed from the Modwest DNS servers. The problem is that DeNIC currently rejects the loadbalanced.net servers, due to them being "out of range". Once my provider has fixed that, I can try again. Concerning the other "oddities" you have discovered: I don't care much about Modwest once I'm out of there, but I will let the loadbalanced.net folks know about them. Interestingly, these folks don't seem to have much of a clue about DNS anyway, upon my first type=soa query I sent to their servers yesterday, I saw that the serial for both thunderbridge.de and loadbalanced.net was set to 0. Even I know that this isn't too sane, and I bet DeNIC would also have complained about this, if it hadn't been corrected. And thanks for your suggestions, I'll have a look at the debugging tools you mentioned, so I get more of a clue about this myself ;-) Bye, Nils From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 10:14:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5450C37B404 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C4C43FBF for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6NHEntS024257; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:14:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F1EDA3F.1998.C3F0EA@localhost> References: <3F1EDA3F.1998.C3F0EA@localhost> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:14:22 +0200 To: "Nils Holland" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:14:55 -0000 At 6:55 PM +0200 2003/07/23, Nils Holland wrote: > What you have found out is actually correct, and that's the problem, > because you I want to change it. The nameservers currently "responsible" > for thunderbridge.de are ns{1,2}.modwest.com. Ahh, okay. I missed that part. Sorry! > It has also been set up > Concerning the other "oddities" you have discovered: I don't care much > about Modwest once I'm out of there, but I will let the loadbalanced.net > folks know about them. Just keep in mind that any zones you have hosted on their machines are vulnerable, and any machines within those zones could be more easily broken into by using them as a vector. If you're not going to work with them to try to help them get their stuff fixed before you move, then you want to be quick about moving your stuff somewhere else. > Interestingly, these folks don't seem to have > much of a clue about DNS anyway, upon my first type=soa query I sent to > their servers yesterday, I saw that the serial for both thunderbridge.de > and loadbalanced.net was set to 0. Even I know that this isn't too > sane, and I bet DeNIC would also have complained about this, if it > hadn't been corrected. An SOA serial number of 0 is technically legal, but would almost certainly have raised additional flags at DEnic. > And thanks for your suggestions, I'll have a look at the debugging > tools you mentioned, so I get more of a clue about this myself ;-) Good luck! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 11:03:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B52637B401; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE15A43FA3; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:03:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6NI3TtW029993; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:03:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030723173242.GC14408@HAL9000.homeunix.com> References: <3F1E6456.9090400@fsn.hu> <20030723173242.GC14408@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:03:27 +0200 To: David Schultz From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Attila Nagy cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: maildir with softupdates X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:03:45 -0000 At 10:32 AM -0700 2003/07/23, David Schultz wrote: >> "ext3 is unsafe for maildir, and with softupdates, so is ffs." >> http://www.irbs.net/internet/postfix/0202/0358.html > > The statement is FUD; this is a topic that mailer people love to > complain about. It's only true if your MTA doesn't call fsync() > when it wants to guarantee that the file it just wrote is on > stable storage. The MTA does not know anything about maildir. This would be a local delivery agent (LDA) issue, not an MTA issue. Moreover, the software not only needs to issue an fsync() on the file, it also needs to issue an fsync() on the directory, in order to have reasonable guarantees that the date has been safely written. My recollection is that, with fsync() on the file and fsync() on the directory, softupdates is actually safe for these kinds of applications (at least, the filesystem won't be left in an inconsistent state), whereas ext3fs or other filesystems might not be. Keep in mind that Kirk McKusick (author of softupdates) and Eric Allman (author of sendmail) have been partners for decades, and I don't think that either would do anything that could cause serious harm to the business done by the other. They've known each other far too long to let anything like that happen. I know that sendmail is safe on softupdates (indeed, softupdates is recommended), but I also recall that some source modifications were required to have it to an fsync() on both the file and the directory, before it was safe. Unfortunately, I don't recall if the fync()-on-file-and-directory trick is enough to make sendmail sufficiently safe on ext3fs. You'd have to ask people who are more knowledgeable with that configuration than I am. In the long run, it all comes down to how much danger you're willing to live with, and how much safety you believe is required before you are in proper compliance with the protocol specifications. If you want to run your e-mail system on a pure RAM disk that has no battery backup or UPS, and you're willing to lose all that e-mail if the power goes out, then you should be able to do that. However, if you have any customers, you should make operational decisions like this known to them, so that they can make their own determination as to whether or not you are conforming to the level of service that they require. For example, if you are a spamhaus, then this sort of thing is probably okay. In fact, you probably want to encourage frequent power outages, so that you can claim that you "delivered" X-billions of e-mail messages per second, where "delivered" in this case means "threw away". With data delivery rates that high, you could charge exorbitant fees for your services. Indeed, in that case I would encourage you to draw as much spam business as possible, because your mode of operation would mean that I would probably get less spam than I do today. This issue no longer has anything to do with -CURRENT, so I am re-directing this to freebsd-chat. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 12:43:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500CA37B401; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F6B43F85; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D8BEE1FE49; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:43:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77441BF9F; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:43:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:43:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Bill Paul In-Reply-To: <20030722152951.2F96537B401@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: <20030723142824.M4656@duey.wolves.k12.mo.us> References: <20030722152951.2F96537B401@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: nVidia nForce2 potential owners please read (take two) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:43:42 -0000 On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Bill Paul wrote: > For this, I need your help. What I need is to gather proof of > demand. They've already found enough FreeBSD users using their products to create a supported FreeBSD driver for their GPUs. Did they forget about that? I'm considering a purchase of an Opteron system using their nForce 3 Pro, and I assume that the driver would apply to that as well. Chalk up one more interested customer. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon(at)wolves.k12.mo.us FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32, IA64, PC98, Alpha, and UltraSPARC architectures - x86-64, PowerPC, ARM, MIPS, and S/390 under development - http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 17:20:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3157637B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FFB643FBF for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6O0KBhC016428; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6O0K9WQ016427; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:20:09 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030724002009.GA16322@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , Attila Nagy , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <3F1E6456.9090400@fsn.hu> <20030723173242.GC14408@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: cc: Attila Nagy cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: maildir with softupdates X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:20:14 -0000 On Wed, Jul 23, 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > > The statement is FUD; this is a topic that mailer people love to > > complain about. It's only true if your MTA doesn't call fsync() > > when it wants to guarantee that the file it just wrote is on > > stable storage. > > The MTA does not know anything about maildir. This would be a > local delivery agent (LDA) issue, not an MTA issue. Brain fart. Thanks for the correction. > Moreover, the software not only needs to issue an fsync() on the > file, it also needs to issue an fsync() on the directory, in order to > have reasonable guarantees that the date has been safely written. Softupdates automatically syncs the parent directory (and its parent, etc) when you fsync() the file. The bug that I mentioned ext3 had was that it didn't do this. Actually, it may be too harsh to call it a bug, given that POSIX has rather lax requirements regarding what fsync() is required to do, but most applications I've looked at in regards to this issue assume the behavior that softupdates has. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 17:40:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD4A37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.knology.net (user-24-236-126-2.knology.net [24.236.126.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3383F43F85 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 10129 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2003 00:40:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 24 Jul 2003 00:40:02 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:40:03 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <66AA428D-BD1C-11D7-9CD0-000393A335A2@mac.com> In-Reply-To: <66AA428D-BD1C-11D7-9CD0-000393A335A2@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307231940.03862.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: What does "enterpise" mean? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:40:06 -0000 Email, The Final Frontier. "Enterprise" means it was used on Star Trek. Just as "Turbo" or "Synthetic" or "New And Improved!" means you are supposed to be impressed. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 19:25:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2626F37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2904843FAF for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilson32@kc.rr.com) Received: from webkl7bcj7ou3q (CPE-65-28-69-39.kc.rr.com [65.28.69.39]) h6O2PCPc010711 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:25:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005101c3518a$d26d21d0$27451c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> From: "Derik Wilson" To: References: <3F1EDA3F.1998.C3F0EA@localhost> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:25:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:25:22 -0000 Man! You guys are way over my head. (*Extreme freeBSD newbie here*) But I'll try to keep up and learn from you all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Knowles" To: "Nils Holland" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) > At 6:55 PM +0200 2003/07/23, Nils Holland wrote: > > > What you have found out is actually correct, and that's the problem, > > because you I want to change it. The nameservers currently "responsible" > > for thunderbridge.de are ns{1,2}.modwest.com. > > Ahh, okay. I missed that part. Sorry! > > > It has also been set up > > Concerning the other "oddities" you have discovered: I don't care much > > about Modwest once I'm out of there, but I will let the loadbalanced.net > > folks know about them. > > Just keep in mind that any zones you have hosted on their > machines are vulnerable, and any machines within those zones could be > more easily broken into by using them as a vector. If you're not > going to work with them to try to help them get their stuff fixed > before you move, then you want to be quick about moving your stuff > somewhere else. > > > Interestingly, these folks don't seem to have > > much of a clue about DNS anyway, upon my first type=soa query I sent to > > their servers yesterday, I saw that the serial for both thunderbridge.de > > and loadbalanced.net was set to 0. Even I know that this isn't too > > sane, and I bet DeNIC would also have complained about this, if it > > hadn't been corrected. > > An SOA serial number of 0 is technically legal, but would almost > certainly have raised additional flags at DEnic. > > > And thanks for your suggestions, I'll have a look at the debugging > > tools you mentioned, so I get more of a clue about this myself ;-) > > Good luck! > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ > !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) > tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 19:31:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1356E37B417 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705B543F93 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA2C3F4F; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:31:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Derik Wilson" Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:31:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F1F0CD8.7169.5A2D9B28@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <005101c3518a$d26d21d0$27451c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:31:56 -0000 On 23 Jul 2003 at 21:25, Derik Wilson wrote: > Man! You guys are way over my head. (*Extreme freeBSD newbie here*) > But I'll try to keep up and learn from you all. The thing to keep in mind is that it is all relative. Those people [who you think are way over your head] also have people who they think are way over their head. We all have our areas of knowledge. And we are all, every one of us, a newbie. Unfortunately, that's a point often missed by those who have forgotten their roots. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 23 20:12:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F0F37B401 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BDD43FE1 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilson32@kc.rr.com) Received: from webkl7bcj7ou3q (CPE-65-28-69-39.kc.rr.com [65.28.69.39]) h6O3CjKg029526 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:12:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <008101c35191$73c5da80$27451c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> From: "Derik Wilson" To: References: <3F1F0CD8.7169.5A2D9B28@localhost> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:12:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:12:54 -0000 Good point. So if anyone needs any programming knowledge on an IBM 390/MVS let me know. LOL! Not likely. If anyone can let me know what is needed to register a DNS I would appreciate that info. I have my apache set up but I am not sure how to register a named server so that I can point a domain name at it. I can't point the domain name at an IP with my current registrar, only named servers. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Langille" To: "Derik Wilson" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:31 PM Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) > On 23 Jul 2003 at 21:25, Derik Wilson wrote: > > > Man! You guys are way over my head. (*Extreme freeBSD newbie here*) > > But I'll try to keep up and learn from you all. > > The thing to keep in mind is that it is all relative. Those people > [who you think are way over your head] also have people who they > think are way over their head. We all have our areas of knowledge. > And we are all, every one of us, a newbie. Unfortunately, that's a > point often missed by those who have forgotten their roots. > -- > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 01:25:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5394D37B401; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C2F43FA3; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfnj3.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.222.99] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19fbPR-0002Io-00; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:25:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1F9797.770751C8@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:23:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <3F1E6456.9090400@fsn.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a445ffeb4013304e48a4c064263d053f04350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Attila Nagy cc: David Schultz cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: maildir with softupdates X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:25:16 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > Moreover, the software not only needs to issue an fsync() on the > file, it also needs to issue an fsync() on the directory, in order to > have reasonable guarantees that the date has been safely written. My > recollection is that, with fsync() on the file and fsync() on the > directory, softupdates is actually safe for these kinds of > applications (at least, the filesystem won't be left in an > inconsistent state), whereas ext3fs or other filesystems might not be. This is incorrect. Technically, you can comply with POSIX with an implementation for directories which does not involve the directory data being stored in a file abstraction, and therefore making it impossible to "fsync() a directory" on such a system; VMS is one example of such a system that does not implement the directories as normal files, and for which it is therefore not possible to obtain an fd for the directory on which an fsync() may operate. POSIX semantics from both Section 2 ("Compliance") and from the "Rationale" and "Corrigenda" sections specifically state the metadata semantics for files, when it comes to "SHALL be updated" vs. "SHALL bemarked for update" vs. no stated semantics. A system which does not guarantee metadata integrity, and ordering of metadata vs. data when a file in a directory is itself fsync()'ed while there is an incompleted operation in progress, is *NOT* compliant with the POSIX or IEEE-1003.1-2001 or Sungle UNIX Specification standards. There is no other interpretation possible: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/functions/fchdir.html "A conforming application can obtain a file descriptor for a file of type directory using open(), provided that the file status flags and access modes do not contain O_WRONLY or O_RDWR." > I know that sendmail is safe on softupdates (indeed, softupdates > is recommended), but I also recall that some source modifications > were required to have it to an fsync() on both the file and the > directory, before it was safe. If you examine the Sendmail sources, you will see that it calls fsync() in queue.c and collect.c. In both these cases, the call takes place on "tfp" -- a temporay file pointer. In no case does it call fsync on an fd that references a directory. Sendmail, in other words, expects a POSIX compliant system, in terms of metadata update ordering semantic guarantees. > Unfortunately, I don't recall if the fync()-on-file-and-directory > trick is enough to make sendmail sufficiently safe on ext3fs. You'd > have to ask people who are more knowledgeable with that configuration > than I am. It would not be, unless it did an fsync-to-root on intermediate directories, as well as the queue directory, to ensure all the extents referred to their committed data from the inferior directories, instead of referring to the previously committed data of an intermediate directory, which did not refer to the newly committed extents. > In the long run, it all comes down to how much danger you're > willing to live with, and how much safety you believe is required > before you are in proper compliance with the protocol specifications. This is just rationalizing. In the long run, it comes down to compliance or not compliance with international standards; The ext3fs fails to comply with these standards, because it assumes by default that metadata integrity is the responsibility of the application, not the OS, and it assumes an implementation detail that the standards in question are not prepared to allow it to assume, to wit: that directories are implemented in terms of file primitives, at the lowest level, and that it is therefore possible to both (a) get a writeable file descriptor for a directory and (b) to utilize such a file descriptor in an fsync() call. In fact, a strict reading of the relevent standards permits an fsync() on any fd that is not open for write to return EBADF or EIO. > If you want to run your e-mail system on a pure RAM disk that has > no battery backup or UPS, and you're willing to lose all that e-mail > if the power goes out, then you should be able to do that. However, > if you have any customers, you should make operational decisions like > this known to them, so that they can make their own determination as > to whether or not you are conforming to the level of service that > they require. This is what Hotmail does, in fact, and it makes it clear that the service is not intended for business use, and that business use is in fact prohibited, in it's service agreement in the Terms Of Service section. The fact is, though, that this renders their service non-compliant with both the international standard RFC-821, and the international standard RFC-2821 which supercedes the former. Again, it comes down to compliance with international standards. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 05:59:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80F137B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunderbridge.de (thunderbridge.de [65.39.221.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2045243FB1 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nils@thunderbridge.de) Received: (qmail 70295 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2003 15:25:27 -0000 Received: from dialin-pool2-220.wobline.de (HELO gaffa.thunderbridge.de) (postmaster@tisys.org@62.176.227.220) by thunderbridge.de with SMTP; 21 Jul 2003 15:25:27 -0000 Received: from gaffa.thunderbridge.de (gaffa.thunderbridge.de [192.168.0.1]) by gaffa.thunderbridge.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C604AC for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Nils Holland Organization: Thunderbridge Publishing To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:34:18 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307211734.18781.nils@thunderbridge.de> Subject: DNS Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:59:04 -0000 Hi folks, I hope here is somebody with a clue, because I don't have one. While this is not really that much FreeBSD-related, I hope someone can give me a hint. Basically, I tried to change the DNS servers for one of my domains today. However, DeNIC (the .de registry) declined, because obviously the new nameservers do not comply with their strict standards. Now I have never set up or maintained DNS servers myself, so I do not know too much about this, but here's the problem report they sent me: > Register.com is unable to complete your DNS transfers as the .DE registry > has strict requirements for DNS servers. They require that DNS information > be: > > 1. Must be on 2 separate class-c networks > 2. SOA Minimum = 86400 > 3. SOA Expire = 604800 > 4. SOA Retry = 3600 > 5. SOA Refresh = 10800 > > We encountered the following errors when attempting to make the DNS > changes: > > The domain thunderbridge.de has NOT been updated. > The following errors were detected: > == SERVER ns1.loadbalanced.net. = > ns1.loadbalanced.net.: serial has not been set > ns1.loadbalanced.net.: serial not set > ns1.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value retry (900) does not fit in range [1800 > ... 28800]. > ns1.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value refresh (1800) does not fit > in range [10000 ... 86400]. == END = > == SERVER ns2.loadbalanced.net. = > ns2.loadbalanced.net.: serial has not been set > ns2.loadbalanced.net.: serial not set > ns2.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value retry (900) does not fit in range [1800 > ... 28800]. > ns2.loadbalanced.net.: SOA value refresh (1800) does not fit > in range [10000 ... 86400]. > == END = I have a slight clue what this means, but what I'd like to ask is this: If I tell the operators of the DNS servers concerning this, do you think they can easily change their settings so that they would comply with DeNIC's standards? Or do you think they have a reason for having their stuff set up as it is, and they will be unable to "correct" this? Like I said, this is not really FreeBSD-related. But I know that some great folks who have a clue about almost everything hang around here, and I thought I might ask without running the danger of anyone starting to throw rocks on me or something. ;-) Bye, Nils --> NEU: Das Thunderbridge Forum: http://forum.thunderbridge.de :NEU <-- -- "I painted all your pigeons red - I wish I had stayed home instead" FreeBSD gaffa.thunderbridge.de 4.8-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE #7: Mon Jun 9 21:01:40 CEST 2003 root@gaffa.thunderbridge.de:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/JAZZY i386 5:27PM up 13 days, 3:49, 2 users, load averages: 0.10, 0.09, 0.08 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 08:19:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BA637B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunderbridge.de (thunderbridge.de [65.39.221.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6601843FB1 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nils@thunderbridge.de) Received: (qmail 78218 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2003 15:12:21 -0000 Received: from dialin-pool2-102.wobline.de (HELO gaffa.thunderbridge.de) (postmaster@tisys.org@62.176.227.102) by thunderbridge.de with SMTP; 24 Jul 2003 15:12:21 -0000 Received: from gaffa.thunderbridge.de (gaffa.thunderbridge.de [192.168.0.1]) by gaffa.thunderbridge.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A23849C for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:20:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Nils Holland Organization: Thunderbridge Publishing To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:20:17 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <200307211734.18781.nils@thunderbridge.de> In-Reply-To: <200307211734.18781.nils@thunderbridge.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307241720.17872.nils@thunderbridge.de> Subject: Re: DNS Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:19:18 -0000 Hmm, I don't know why this message turned up here again. Look at the date - I posted it on Monday, it didn't seem to have gotten though, and I didn't receive a failure notice, so I thought it lost and re-{wrote,sent} it yesterday. And now, today, the old message gets delivered. Strange. Where has it been all of the time? Hmm. Probably it's because my provider is not only using djbdns on their DNS servers, but also qmail on their mail servers. *lol* Anyway, I'm sorry for the double-post. :-( Bye, Nils --> NEU: Das Thunderbridge Forum: http://forum.thunderbridge.de :NEU <-- -- "I painted all your pigeons red - I wish I had stayed home instead" FreeBSD gaffa.thunderbridge.de 4.8-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE #7: Mon Jun 9 21:01:40 CEST 2003 root@gaffa.thunderbridge.de:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/JAZZY i386 5:17PM up 2 days, 3:58, 1 user, load averages: 0.43, 0.40, 0.39 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 08:32:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4886E37B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCD943FA3 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19fi4g-0002QC-00; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:32:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Derik Wilson In-Reply-To: <008101c35191$73c5da80$27451c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:32:20 -0000 On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Derik Wilson wrote: > If anyone can let me know what is needed to register a DNS I would > appreciate that info. I have my apache set up but I am not sure how to > register a named server so that I can point a domain name at it. I can't > point the domain name at an IP with my current registrar, only named > servers. Thanks Sense you have a web server setup I'll assume you have a static IP for that server. So use BIND (which is installed by default) with FreeBSD or install another DNS server from the ports collection (such as net/maradns). To start BIND's named at boot time, add named_enable=YES to your rc.conf file. With rcng, run "/etc/rc.d/named start" or just run "named". Configure it to be authoritative for your zone. When using BIND, do something like the following in your /etc/namedb/named.conf file: zone "your-host.example.com" in { type master; file "/etc/named/your-host.example.com"; allow-query { any; }; }; And look at the named.conf(5) man page. Create that file (/etc/named/your-host.example.com) as a zone file. Read the named(8) man page about "Master File Format". You can find many examples, like: dig kc.rr.com soa | grep -v '^;;' dig kc.rr.com any | grep -v '^;;' (Restarted named or run "ndc reload" after making changes.) Once your named is running with new zone file, contact your registrar and have them point your dns to your new dns service. (You may have a web-based interface to do this. You may also need to register your host as a nameserver.) Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 08:54:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A9F37B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E6043F3F for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin8@t-online.de) Received: from fwd00.aul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19fiQU-0001UO-00; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:54:42 +0200 Received: from FIREBIRD (bVAhT+ZC8ejwCMoaEgwJdCYRviDkTYp07LJzM6pk0k+npQuhhxgjc2@[80.130.249.194]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19fiQN-26UFu40; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:54:35 +0200 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:56:04 +0200 From: calvin8@t-online.de (Andi Scharfstein) X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.61) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <12273995343.20030724175604@t-online.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Seen: false X-ID: bVAhT+ZC8ejwCMoaEgwJdCYRviDkTYp07LJzM6pk0k+npQuhhxgjc2 Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:54:44 -0000 Hi, > Once your named is running with new zone file, contact your registrar and > have them point your dns to your new dns service. (You may have a > web-based interface to do this. You may also need to register your host > as a nameserver.) It may also be necessary to provide secondary nameservers as fall-back mechanisms... http://www.zoneedit.com does this for free. -- Bye: Andi S. mailto:nullpointer@myrealbox.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 09:24:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C516F37B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA29A43F75 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6OGO8tS040579; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:24:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200307241720.17872.nils@thunderbridge.de> References: <200307211734.18781.nils@thunderbridge.de> <200307241720.17872.nils@thunderbridge.de> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:13:42 +0200 To: Nils Holland From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:24:18 -0000 At 5:20 PM +0200 2003/07/24, Nils Holland wrote: > Hmm, I don't know why this message turned up here again. Look at the date - I > posted it on Monday, it didn't seem to have gotten though, and I didn't > receive a failure notice, so I thought it lost and re-{wrote,sent} it > yesterday. Look at the "Received:" headers: Received: from thunderbridge.de (thunderbridge.de [65.39.221.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2045243FB1 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 05:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nils@thunderbridge.de) Received: (qmail 70295 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2003 15:25:27 -0000 Received: from dialin-pool2-220.wobline.de (HELO gaffa.thunderbridge.de) (postmaster@tisys.org@62.176.227.220) by thunderbridge.de with SMTP; 21 Jul 2003 15:25:27 -0000 Received: from gaffa.thunderbridge.de (gaffa.thunderbridge.de [192.168.0.1]) by gaffa.thunderbridge.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C604AC for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:34:19 +0200 (CEST) Looks like it was held up on thunderbridge.de [65.39.221.202] for some reason (it comes into this machine on 21 Jul 2003 15:25:27 -0000 and is sent to the next hop at 24 Jul 2003 05:59:04 -0700), but it's hard to tell just exactly why. You'd need to look into the logs of this machine to see what the real problem was. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 10:31:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53F637B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunderbridge.de (thunderbridge.de [65.39.221.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4238B43F75 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nils@thunderbridge.de) Received: (qmail 82283 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2003 17:24:45 -0000 Received: from dialin-pool1-122.wobline.de (HELO gaffa.thunderbridge.de) (postmaster@tisys.org@62.176.226.122) by thunderbridge.de with SMTP; 24 Jul 2003 17:24:45 -0000 Received: from gaffa.thunderbridge.de (gaffa.thunderbridge.de [192.168.0.1]) by gaffa.thunderbridge.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B13573; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:31:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Nils Holland Organization: Thunderbridge Publishing To: Brad Knowles Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:31:45 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <200307211734.18781.nils@thunderbridge.de> <200307241720.17872.nils@thunderbridge.de> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307241931.45660.nils@thunderbridge.de> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:31:46 -0000 On Thursday 24 July 2003 18:13, Brad Knowles wrote: > Looks like it was held up on thunderbridge.de [65.39.221.202] for > some reason (it comes into this machine on 21 Jul 2003 15:25:27 -0000 > and is sent to the next hop at 24 Jul 2003 05:59:04 -0700), but it's > hard to tell just exactly why. You'd need to look into the logs of > this machine to see what the real problem was. I guess the problem was this: The "thunderbridge.de" on which is was held up was not the "real" thunderbridge.de at this time. It was the server that is now (after the DNS update) thunderbridge.de. I guess the FreeBSD mailserver rejected it because of SPAM protection, when it did a (reverse) DNS lookup and noticed that a machine that is not really what it claims to be / doesn't (yet) have DNS properly set up, tried to relay mail though it. But that's just a guess. ;-) Bye, Nils --> NEU: Das Thunderbridge Forum: http://forum.thunderbridge.de :NEU <-- -- "I painted all your pigeons red - I wish I had stayed home instead" FreeBSD gaffa.thunderbridge.de 4.8-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE #7: Mon Jun 9 21:01:40 CEST 2003 root@gaffa.thunderbridge.de:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/JAZZY i386 7:28PM up 2 days, 6:09, 2 users, load averages: 0.29, 0.15, 0.10 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 15:57:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 618) id E7F4637B401; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:57:02 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20030724225702.E7F4637B401@hub.freebsd.org> From: wpaul@FreeBSD.ORG (Bill Paul) Subject: Update on nVidia/MCP ethernet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:57:03 -0000 First off, response to my announcement has been amazing. I've received 150 e-mails so far, and they're still coming. Thanks to everyone who has responded. An extra special thanks to those people who agreed to talk to contacts they have within nVidia. I'm still waiting for for info from these people. As soon as I learn something new, I'll pass it along. I have also made some progress on another front. It occured to me that since nVidia is known for GPU expertise rather than networking expertise that maybe their 'proprietary design' wasn't really anything of the sort. Well, I was right: what nVidia calls "MCP ethernet" is really a Conexant CX25870/1 "jedi" controller. I have contacted Conexant and am in the process of trying to obtain a copy of the programming manual for this device. There are some NDA issues to deal with, however I've been told they will not prevent me from releasing driver source. I hope to get this resolved soon. Stay tuned. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (510) 749-2329 | Senior Engineer, Master of Unix-Fu wpaul@windriver.com | Wind River Systems ============================================================================= "If stupidity were a handicap, you'd have the best parking spot." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 17:30:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E68237B404; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anuket.mj.niksun.com (gwnew.niksun.com [65.115.46.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5019A43F75; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkim@niksun.com) Received: from daemon.mj.niksun.com (daemon.mj.niksun.com [10.70.0.244]) h6P0UPlT067741; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:30:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jkim@niksun.com) X-RAV-AntiVirus: This e-mail has been scanned for viruses. From: Jung-uk Kim Organization: Niksun, Inc. To: wpaul@freebsd.org (Bill Paul), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:30:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030724225702.E7F4637B401@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20030724225702.E7F4637B401@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307242030.25276.jkim@niksun.com> Subject: Re: Update on nVidia/MCP ethernet X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:30:50 -0000 On Thursday 24 July 2003 06:57 pm, Bill Paul wrote: > I have also made some progress on another front. It occured to me > that since nVidia is known for GPU expertise rather than networking > expertise that maybe their 'proprietary design' wasn't really > anything of the sort. Well, I was right: what nVidia calls "MCP > ethernet" is really a Conexant CX25870/1 "jedi" controller. I have > contacted Conexant and am in the process of trying to obtain a copy > of the programming manual for this device. There are some NDA > issues to deal with, however I've been told they will not prevent > me from releasing driver source. AFAIK, CX25870/1 is a video encoder. http://www.conexant.com/products/entry.jsp?id=278 Jung-uk Kim From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 24 23:53:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B53137B401 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CAA43FA3 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:53:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfi6b.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.200.203] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19fwSc-0005Dn-00; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:53:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3F20D3C3.C3F0927F@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:52:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a42be499304cae878245ed64ada8c62beb548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Derik Wilson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS Question (quite a bit OT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 06:53:56 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Derik Wilson wrote: > > If anyone can let me know what is needed to register a DNS I would > > appreciate that info. I have my apache set up but I am not sure how to > > register a named server so that I can point a domain name at it. I can't > > point the domain name at an IP with my current registrar, only named > > servers. Thanks > > Sense you have a web server setup I'll assume you have a static IP for > that server. > > So use BIND (which is installed by default) with FreeBSD or install > another DNS server from the ports collection (such as net/maradns). Heh. There is probably a market for a DNS that will lie about it's timeouts when requests come from the TLD -- and *only* from the TLD. 8-) 8-). The reason they care, BTW, is the want to control the load on their root servers, and they do that by administratively controlling how long the records on the servers to which their root server has delegated autority's responses are normally cached for on intermediate DNS caching servers, such as those at the NSP/ISP boundary (e.g. at ISP's or in the "last hop" in DSLM's, etc.). The PITA with this approach is that it means switching providers will mean you are "off the air", as far as people who have a DNS caching server with a cached entry with a long TTL between them and the root are concerned. DNS was actually intened to have the TTL drastically reduced in these situations, so they are actually checking on something that should be small exactly while they are checking it. 8-(. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 25 13:08:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E121A37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2131643F85 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mooneer@translator.cx) Received: from pool0324.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.183.69] helo=D6T8V231) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19g8rq-0001pa-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:08:42 -0700 From: "Mooneer Salem" To: "'Paul Robinson'" Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:08:43 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030709091918.GU40220@iconoplex.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:08:51 -0000 Hello, I meant to reply to this message, but I haven't had the time until now. :) Anyways, while reviewing for the LPI certification exams (there's a lot of obscure stuff that isn't used often in server administration, it seems) I thought of "the ultimate (insert OS here)" certification exam. In the United States, high school students have the option of taking Advanced Placement exams (http://www.collegeboard.com/ap/). Most colleges and universities award college credit for successfully challenging these exams. Each exam is about 3-4 hours long, and usually consists of a multiple choice section followed by a free response question (basically questions requiring answers in paragraph or essay form). They're offered only once a year, in May. This kind of concept could be adapted for any kind of FreeBSD certification exam. There would be a multiple choice section (it'd be about 1/3rd of the total exam score) and a lab section. The multiple choice section would be just like any other certification exam. It'd cover basic systems administration essentials, FreeBSD commands, etc. After taking the multiple choice section of the exam, the test takers would go to another room with rows of computers on the desks. Before the actual exam takes place, the exam creators would take a hard drive, install FreeBSD on it, and then basically manufacture a problem that would require a sysadmin to fix it (such as a trashed boot sector or Apache). Preferably the problem would normally take about an hour to two hours to solve. Each test taker would have access to a FreeBSD CD and the Internet (for Google). Network and routing information would be provided on a whiteboard in the front of the room in case the computers are not set up properly for networking. Once each test taker fixes their computer entirely, they would access a Web page on the server in front of the room (where the gateway specified above would be). The server would record the fact that they completed the lab portion of the test and run some automatic checks (are the services that need to be up, up? Is Apache configured properly by showing this particular page? etc.). Once the checks are complete, this information would be saved and the test taker's computer would be remotely shut down. The multiple choice portion of the exam would be graded automatically. Every test taker would know their results on this portion after the test is complete. Grading for the lab portion of the exam would be as follows: 50%: completion of automatic checks by lab server (the test taker would know their score on this portion immediately as well) 50%: manual inspection of server Every computer used in the test room is manually inspected after the test takers leave. It's checked to make sure things like the proper number of users is created, they have secure passwords, and other things that can't be completed through an automatic check. Points would be added/deducted based on how well the server was set up or "fixed". Altogether, the lab portion of the exam would be worth 2/3rds of the total exam score. Based on the performance of previous exam sessions, score thresholds would be set. The possible grades you could get on this exam could be something like this: 5: Exceptional mastery of systems administration 4: Above-average mastery 3: Acceptable mastery 1-2: Below acceptable (this would be equivalent to getting an F in a class) Because thresholds would be different every exam session, this means that if the highest scoring test takers only got a 60%, they could still get a 5. This would cover cases where the test makers decided to introduce a situation not commonly faced by sysadmins (like a new worm or security vulnerability). This concept could also be extended to add add-on certification for things like networking and security administration, although these probably wouldn't be done at the same time as the main examination. Because of the expense of equipping exam centers with computers that the examiners can install FreeBSD on without getting in trouble (I don't think the VUE centers that I know of would allow that), it'd probably only be possible to do it once a year. Perhaps the exam could be given every year during BSDcon? In fact, the multiple choice portion of the exam could be made into a separate exam, with full certification not being attained until the lab session is passed (this would allow the multiple choice portion to be administered online rather than in person). Does anyone see any kind of fault with such a system? How could such a system be improved? BTW: Paul, maybe we can chat via private email more about your ideas for certification, if you'd like. :) Thanks, -- Mooneer Salem "The 8-ball won't tell me if I'll pass the final!" lifeafterking.org: Life after HS -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Paul Robinson Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 2:19 AM To: William Fletcher Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD certification. On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 10:32:24AM +0200, William Fletcher wrote: > I was just wondering what would be a good certification for a person > who doesn't have any. Preferably something with a little bit of challenge. > And, preferably FreeBSD specific. Two years ago when I was working for the 3-employers-ago company, I came up with the idea of a decent BSD-specific qualification program. It got built out on paper to include Apache, Sendmail, etc. configuation and management. The idea was to make it more useful (and valuable) than any of the rather cruddy (IMHO) Solaris or Redhat certs. Delivery and even examination would be on-line, with the curriculum available to training centres who would want to "value-add" and provide classroom training. In principle however, you would be able to get stuck in from anywhere in the world for a relatively low cost. Even though it would be cheap, it would be intentionally of a high standard (read: quite hard to do) to keep it's "value" up there above the rest. I did quite a bit of work on it before realising the market was too small. That market has grown since though, and it's something that I might look at again next year - I'm happy to look into going into parternship with somebody else who wants to do some work on it right now. Bizzarely, I'm now working for a department inside a UK University developing a brand new e-learning delivery platform, so some of the experience here might rub off and I might end up building it anyway. The biggest problem is that ideally a formal accreditation model needs to be drawn up, it should take note of CPD activites already completed, ideally we should be looking to see an application of learning, etc. and that's all in the realms of academia. If there are any academics who want to get involved in something like this, just get in touch. I feel a tad out of my depth, even though I'm now immersed in the whole environment. Note: tutorials at conferences and reading o'reilly books is NOT the same as working through a formal accredited certification. They will address skill gaps, but they are address specific problem domains rather than providing you with the information to address new problem domains on your own. > Otherwise, any other interesting courses? Like Terry pointed out, the tutorials at BSD con might be your best bet this year as long as you see them for what they are. > I'd like to get my cissp, before I turn 25. CCNA is a good one to get if you want to work in the ISP/carrier market, even if you don't want to touch the network, just the servers. It's interesting too, I think. I'm planning to do CCNA exams later this year just when I get a little more spare time. > Sorry I didn't check the mailing lists\google. Somebody in the office > suggested I try get my boss to send me on a FreeBSD course. Since > he wants to do redhat certification if he can. Some people really rate the redhat stuff. I don't. I don't rate the Sun/solaris stuff either. And don't get me started on MSCE. Anyway, anybody interested in working on a FBSD certification programme? -- Paul Robinson _______________________________________________ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 25 13:18:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BEB37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E8343FBD for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-156-170-189.jan.bellsouth.net [66.156.170.189]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD8C1522E; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:18:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id DC52220F2A; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:18:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:18:50 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Mooneer Salem Message-ID: <20030725201850.GH11494@over-yonder.net> References: <20030709091918.GU40220@iconoplex.co.uk> <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:18:56 -0000 On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 01:08:43PM -0700 I heard the voice of Mooneer Salem, and lo! it spake thus: > > Does anyone see any kind of fault with such a system? How could such a > system be improved? I think that the biggest fault is that the greatest measure of a sysadmin is more in how they avoid problems, and how they maintain systems long-term when there are no immediate 'problems', than in how they fix problem X in isolation. So, that practicum ends up being kinda... I dunno. "Artificial" is probably the best word. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 25 13:37:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A5C37B401 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EDD43F85 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mooneer@translator.cx) Received: from pool0324.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.183.69] helo=D6T8V231) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19g9Ju-00057j-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:37:43 -0700 From: "Mooneer Salem" To: "'Matthew D. Fuller'" Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:37:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c352ec$9aa8f770$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030725201850.GH11494@over-yonder.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:37:48 -0000 Hello, I guess the only way you can avoid being artificial would be to order services at the candidate's place of employment (like servers) and randomly monitor how the box is administered throughout the year. Even then that'd have problems (what if the guy/girl going for the certification isn't currently working?) Not to mention the extra expense the exam would then require. The way I outlined would probably be the closest approximation to a real systems administration situation (the prevention aspects of it could be covered in the multiple-choice/written portion). In short, there's really no perfect way to determine a candidate's competency other than through experience and their references. Thanks, -- Mooneer Salem "The 8-ball won't tell me if I'll pass the final!" lifeafterking.org: Life after HS -----Original Message----- From: Matthew D. Fuller [mailto:fullermd@over-yonder.net] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 1:19 PM To: Mooneer Salem Cc: 'Paul Robinson'; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD certification. On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 01:08:43PM -0700 I heard the voice of Mooneer Salem, and lo! it spake thus: > > Does anyone see any kind of fault with such a system? How could such a > system be improved? I think that the biggest fault is that the greatest measure of a sysadmin is more in how they avoid problems, and how they maintain systems long-term when there are no immediate 'problems', than in how they fix problem X in isolation. So, that practicum ends up being kinda... I dunno. "Artificial" is probably the best word. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 25 15:03:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B2137B401 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9EB43F3F for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6PM30tW082517; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:03:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> References: <000a01c352e8$8d152790$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:53:22 +0200 To: "Mooneer Salem" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 22:03:28 -0000 At 1:08 PM -0700 2003/07/25, Mooneer Salem wrote: > Preferably the problem would normally take about an hour to two > hours to solve. Each test taker would have access to a FreeBSD CD and > the Internet (for Google). Network and routing information would be > provided on a whiteboard in the front of the room in case the computers > are not set up properly for networking. Doesn't work. If they've got access to the Internet, they could contact someone who has already taken the test, get a quick overview of instructions to fix the system (maybe even a script), and be done in just a few minutes. They might even be given enough information to allow them to completely re-install the machine from scratch, avoiding any possible hidden problems that might have been more recently introduced. IMO, better would be to run FreeBSD in a jail (or perhaps under VMWare), on a shared central server, with various artificial problems created. They could access this "system" remotely via an X terminal or from a PC with ssh, and then you monitor all their activities (and every single keystroke) just like you would with a real honeypot. Even that would only be able to go so far. I've been doing Unix system admin since 1989 (and consider myself to be a SAGE Level IV), but there's various areas that I am not very strong in, including backups, user admin (especially network user admin with tools like NIS, NIS+, NetInfo, etc...), printer admin, etc.... Most of the systems I've administered have either been very limited in scope, or have been dedicated to certain roles, and therefore have had little or no "user" accounts on them (the only users have been other members of the system admin team), and no real need for complex printer or backup configurations. Check out the SAGE certification process at . Let us know how you think this process could be further improved. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 25 23:57:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F1837B401 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D7A43F3F for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj2b.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.75] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19gIzc-0002eo-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:57:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3F22261B.5B650E28@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:56:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mooneer Salem References: <000201c352ec$9aa8f770$1300a8c0@D6T8V231> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43bce394abff13343e3bebf0a4ae65ce0548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: "'Matthew D. Fuller'" Subject: Re: BSD certification. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 06:57:30 -0000 Mooneer Salem wrote: > I guess the only way you can avoid being artificial would be to order > services at the candidate's place of employment (like servers) and > randomly monitor how the box is administered throughout the year. We call that "a resume", where I come from. There's a reason employers tend to like experience more than paper credentials, and will hire a 20 year veteran without even a GED before they hire someone with a BS degree. Everyone's always looking for a shortcut without "paying their dues". Paper credentials will get you a higher starting salary, when you have no experience, all things being equal, but for system administration, experience almost always counts more than the paper credentials. If I could stand doing the work, I'd probably be doing system administration; system administrators often make more than kernel engineers with equivalent years on the job. Life's unfair; what're you going to do about it, though? -- Terry