From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 3 14:21:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4220037B401 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B4E43F75 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:21:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h73LL1tS039839; Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:21:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030802222110.Y863@seven.alameda.net> References: <20030802222110.Y863@seven.alameda.net> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:49:44 +0200 To: ulf@Alameda.net From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for suggestions X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:21:07 -0000 At 10:21 PM -0700 2003/08/02, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > I am trying to come up with a way to stress this and get some > numbers as I would like to compare it against like a 5x36GB > 10K RPM U320 raid. It is relatively cheap for the extra space > it gives. Rawio. It by-passes the filesystem and tests the underlying hardware. See also the list at . -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 4 14:13:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BA837B401; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from magic.adaptec.com (magic-mail.adaptec.com [208.236.45.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06F843F85; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from redfish.adaptec.com (redfish.adaptec.com [162.62.50.11]) by magic.adaptec.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h74LDKo22005; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:13:20 -0700 Received: from freebsd.org (hollin.btc.adaptec.com [10.100.253.56]) by redfish.adaptec.com (8.8.8p2+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16672; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F2ECBC9.7020808@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:10:33 -0600 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030414 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <1059994012.207.5.camel@localhost> <20030804174619.GD68433@roark.gnf.org> <20030804184827.GD56633@survey.codeburst.net> <20030804.131957.05878097.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030804203846.GA97580@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030804204806.GA59103@rot13.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20030804204806.GA59103@rot13.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: David O'Brien Subject: Re: pkg_* tools X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:13:21 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 01:38:46PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > >>On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 01:19:57PM -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: >> >>>Heck, we should just have sysinstall install portupgrade if that's the >>>case... >> >>Considering how the Ports Collection has gotten to the point you can't do >>anything post-initial-install w/o portupgrade; I totally agree. > > > Please explain. I think this is FUD - nothing has come to depend on > portupgrade, except that it provides useful features that the ports > collection itself never has. > > Kris cc: trimmed and moved to chat@ The 'fontconfig' mess of recent XFree86 has made a royal mess of things, and the common response I hear to that is, "the ports system is fundamentally flawed and cannot be taught to deal with it, but portupgrade can". However, the times that I've tried to install portupgrade on a non-virgin system (i.e. a system that has been around for a few months and has had many ports installed through the traditional means), it winds up horribly screwing my installation and leaving many things, most notably X, damaged and unusable. I've heard the same horror stories from others around me. Scott From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 4 14:26:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3320937B401; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C3C43F75; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-129-168.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.129.168]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B85152A5; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:26:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 22DC420F26; Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:26:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:26:26 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20030804212626.GM1161@over-yonder.net> References: <1059994012.207.5.camel@localhost> <20030804174619.GD68433@roark.gnf.org> <20030804184827.GD56633@survey.codeburst.net> <20030804.131957.05878097.imp@bsdimp.com> <20030804203846.GA97580@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030804204806.GA59103@rot13.obsecurity.org> <3F2ECBC9.7020808@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F2ECBC9.7020808@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: David O'Brien cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: pkg_* tools X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:26:31 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 03:10:33PM -0600 I heard the voice of Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > >Please explain. I think this is FUD - nothing has come to depend on > >portupgrade, except that it provides useful features that the ports > >collection itself never has. Trying to keep things updated and in sync, while technically possible without portupgrade, rapidly approaches the joy factor of slivers of magnesium inserted under your fingernails and ignited. While having your eyes inspected by masonry drills. > The 'fontconfig' mess of recent XFree86 has made a royal mess of things, > and the common response I hear to that is, "the ports system is > fundamentally flawed and cannot be taught to deal with it, but > portupgrade can". However, the times that I've tried to install > portupgrade on a non-virgin system (i.e. a system that has been around > for a few months and has had many ports installed through the > traditional means), it winds up horribly screwing my installation and > leaving many things, most notably X, damaged and unusable. I've heard > the same horror stories from others around me. It should be noted that I took the plunge sometime (earlier this year, or late last) and installed portupgrade to mess with it. I installed this system in early 1999 with an early 4.0-CURRENT, and installed, upgraded, deinstalled, didn't-deinstall-but-did-whack-the-pkg-dir, partially-deinstalled, installed-over, installed 3 and 4 versions, partially overlapping files, and did all sorts of unspeakable things to it for years. I managed to trend things toward a bit cleaner layout with portupgrade. Now, I never give it its head. I rarely use the recursive features, instead sifting through portversion and giving it a long list manually, which it then internally sorts into the 'optimal' order. It's rather messy in places, to be sure, but after years of managing ports manually... yeah, it's an improvement. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 7 12:53:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5119837B401 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adicia.telenet-ops.be (adicia.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D60843F93 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:53:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@viper.home.smets.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by adicia.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with SMTP id AA0EE37E8B for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:53:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from viper.home.smets.cx (D5765439.kabel.telenet.be [213.118.84.57]) by adicia.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F1837F52 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:53:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: by viper.home.smets.cx (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 98038120114; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:58:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 21:58:07 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030807195807.GA16794@viper.home.smets.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i From: jan@viper.home.smets.cx (Smets Jan) Subject: 3D Beastie model X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:53:13 -0000 Hello list, I'm looking for a 3d model of the daemon. This is for use on a 3d-plastic-printing-machine. Thanks in advance. - Jan -- Smets Jan jan@smets.cx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 7 19:05:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0821D37B401 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19AA43FAF for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7AF4F526C1; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:35:10 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:35:10 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Smets Jan Message-ID: <20030808020510.GE748@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20030807195807.GA16794@viper.home.smets.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OZkY3AIuv2LYvjdk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030807195807.GA16794@viper.home.smets.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Patryk Zadarnowski Subject: Re: 3D Beastie model X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:05:23 -0000 --OZkY3AIuv2LYvjdk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 7 August 2003 at 21:58:07 +0200, Smets Jan wrote: > Hello list, > > I'm looking for a 3d model of the daemon. > This is for use on a 3d-plastic-printing-machine. Patryk Zadarnowski (copied) makes daemon statuettes. See http://www.linuxjewellery.com/beastie/. Maybe he can help you. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --OZkY3AIuv2LYvjdk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/MwVWIubykFB6QiMRAg8CAJ4u+I+Ip/ZyueJZNssh801M5TpO7ACfaMLC 8iuAHn7BpaaRyNXqT2pGyt8= =n9xW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OZkY3AIuv2LYvjdk-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 8 01:09:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F6437B404 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FDC43FAF for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc11n.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.4.55] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19l2J1-0006hd-00; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:09:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3F335A5F.8B70681@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:07:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Smets Jan References: <20030807195807.GA16794@viper.home.smets.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a400c7a4a071f5d91540511a7b8d06e71d2601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3D Beastie model X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:09:10 -0000 Smets Jan wrote: > Hello list, > > I'm looking for a 3d model of the daemon. > This is for use on a 3d-plastic-printing-machine. > > Thanks in advance. OpenBSD had one for the head that they used for this CDROM cover: http://www.openbsd.org/items.html#23 You should probably start asking there. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 8 02:35:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F50337B401 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.covadmail.net (mx01.covadmail.net [63.65.120.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6710343FBD for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: (covad.net 26415 invoked from network); 8 Aug 2003 09:34:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ice.nodomain) (68.164.192.108) by sun-qmail08 with SMTP; 8 Aug 2003 09:34:58 -0000 Received: from ice.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ice.nodomain (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h789Z0Fa000921 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@ice.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by ice.nodomain (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h789Z0Fg000920 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 02:35:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200308080935.h789Z0Fg000920@ice.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3D Beastie model X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:35:03 -0000 Some of those CD covers at are really cute. (just on observation) Dan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 8 07:52:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1859437B401 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.69]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E3043F93 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com) Received: from vwinxp.sneakemail.com ([68.155.193.9]) by imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.netESMTP <20030808145212.PCNT27767.imf21aec.mail.bellsouth.net@vwinxp.sneakemail.com> for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:52:12 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:51:52 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton <2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:52:14 -0000 Pack your bags, you're moving to Germany! http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/06/HNgplunenforceable_1.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 8 14:22:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D42237B401 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web40406.mail.yahoo.com (web40406.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34BDC43FE9 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from catlord17@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030808212207.26289.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.75.68.125] by web40406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:22:07 PDT Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:22:07 -0700 (PDT) From: RexFelis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030808190108.15DF137B405@hub.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Just a quick observation... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:22:07 -0000 I've got my computer triple booting Windows 2000 Pro, which I rarely use, as well as Linux Mandrake 9.1 and FreeBSD 4.8. Today I was thinking about it, and it seemed to me that FreeBSD boots and shuts down faster... So, I decided to do my own little unscientific test. I set up Mandrake to boot to the CLI instead of KDE, as FreeBSD does, and then I timed them booting from the LILO prompt, and shutting down. Both systems are running the stock (unmodified) kernel, and the only difference is that the FreeBSD kernel is compiled from CVSUP from 4.7 with K-6 optimizations. I am running an Athlon XP 1800+ (1.533 GHz) with 512 mb of 233 MHz DDR SDRAM on an Albatron KX400+ Pro mobo, and Linux and FreeBSD are on twin EIDE 30.7 gig hard disks, each on their own controller. The results: Boot Time Shutdown Linux Mandrake 9.1 34.23 seconds 19.01 sec FreeBSD 4.8-Stable 25.85 seconds 6.61 sec To be honest, the time recorded for FreeBSD shutdown time is more than it should be, since the system halted so fast that I didn't realize it had halted for a second. I estimate the actual shutdown time to be something between 5 and 5.5 seconds. Don't know how useful or interesting this is, but I thought I'd share it. :) Shannon __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 8 14:55:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D35337B401 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9372B43FA3 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <200308082155140150045rk0e>; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:55:14 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h78LsvSE029543 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h78Lsq6J029542; Fri, 8 Aug 2003 14:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: FreeBSD Chat References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:54:52 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> (Chip Morton's message of "Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:51:52 -0400") Message-ID: <9nk79ng6hf.79n@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:55:16 -0000 > http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/06/HNgplunenforceable_1.html It's hard to believe that the guy wrote a 123-page report on the subject. He didn't seem very familiar with his subject. It sounded like he was mostly just trying to raise the level of FUD. I'll try to summarize what I think he was trying to say: German and EU law makes developers (I suspect that means "owners"), distributers, and dealers of software liable in ways that cannot be waived in license contracts such as the GPL. [So be it. Lawyers are paid to sort that stuff out. It's no reason for people to not use o.s. software; just reason to not do business in the EU.] The wrong people might get sued when people don't know who owns which parts of some software, or what is derivative of what. [A tough problem, but not a frequent problem, and not unique to the EU.] Employers are in a tricky legal situation when they pay people to write software that they can't sell licenses for. (No explanation, except that it is a "latent contradiction".) [That was worthless.] Users of open-source software are taking a risk that he's wrong (or the law will change) and all those open-source software people really can't be held liable. [Sounds like a GOOD thing, to me. But they don't think they can sue them as it is now, so there's no more risk.] The GPL should be rewritten in German to acknowledge everyone's liability ("in the interest of users, open source developers and competition") under German law. [That's about all he needed to have said.] From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 9 04:22:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918FC37B401 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 04:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B8943F3F for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 04:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk ident=root) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19lRng-000EzD-4C; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:22:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3F34D951.5080800@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:21:53 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> <9nk79ng6hf.79n@mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <9nk79ng6hf.79n@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:22:04 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >I'll try to summarize what I think he was trying to say: > I'll just have to point out your summary is flawed though, and it's more complicated than you are implying. >German and EU law makes developers (I suspect that means "owners"), >distributers, and dealers of software liable in ways that cannot be >waived in license contracts such as the GPL. [So be it. Lawyers >are paid to sort that stuff out. It's no reason for people to not >use o.s. software; just reason to not do business in the EU.] > Yeah, wave that big foam hand with "USA #1" written on it! Woop! This is not restricted to the EU. In the USA, liability laws are even more stupid than they are in the EU, and I think you'll find saying "If you use this software you accept I'm not liable in any way for it's actions or for any IP issues" is not a sufficient clause in a license to indemnify you from liability. You almost certainly need to EXPLICITLY pass the liability of failure onto the user, not just say "I'm not liable, OK?". I've been saying this for years. Several lawyers I've spoken to concurred. It is *obvious*. Unfortunately, nobody seems to have listened until this German piped up. Good on him. >Employers are in a tricky legal situation when they pay people to write >software that they can't sell licenses for. (No explanation, except >that it is a "latent contradiction".) [That was worthless.] > Again, it comes back to liability and it's intrinsic connection with intellectual property and how IP is enforced in the world. You write software whilst working for a company, the company owns the software. Except, you've explicitly said they can't sell it or exert any commercial rights over it, in which case they're not technically in control of the IP and therefore can't be held liable for the code. In which case you weren't employed by them, or your contract is too vague. Seems an obvious point to make to me. >Users of open-source software are taking a risk that he's wrong (or >the law will change) and all those open-source software people really >can't be held liable. [Sounds like a GOOD thing, to me. But they >don't think they can sue them as it is now, so there's no more risk.] > Liability is important. I'm assuming everybody here does have some kind of professional indemnity insurance? I know I do. You should too - it makes sense, and doesn't cost much. >The GPL should be rewritten in German to acknowledge everyone's >liability ("in the interest of users, open source developers and >competition") under German law. [That's about all he needed to have >said.] > The GPL should be rewritten, yes. It should look more like the BSD license. It should then be translated, by lawyers with native knowledge of those languages and legal systems applicable. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 9 07:47:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E56337B401 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731A343FE5 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:47:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <200308091447240150045qupe>; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:47:24 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h79EkkSE044138; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h79EkUeQ044133; Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Paul Robinson References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> <9nk79ng6hf.79n@mail.comcast.net> <3F34D951.5080800@iconoplex.co.uk> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:46:29 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F34D951.5080800@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:21:53 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:47:26 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >>use o.s. software; just reason to not do business in the EU.] >> > Yeah, wave that big foam hand with "USA #1" written on it! Woop! Sorry, I probably would have softened that if I had remembered the large EU readership here. But the corporate/socialist forces (I won't mention what some people call that) that have made laws fill rooms have given plenty of reason to not do business in the USA, and I have little doubt that it's much worse in the EU in general and Germany in particular (except maybe for the few "players" with their teams of lawyers and lobbiests). > This is not restricted to the EU. In the USA, liability laws are even > more stupid than they are in the EU, and I think you'll find saying With a few narrow exceptions aimed mainly at retail customers, people are still allowed, in the USA, to deal in liability risks like any other thing of value or cost and to document their deals in contracts like software licenses. The German lawyer said that's generally not true in the EU. > "If you use this software you accept I'm not liable in any way for > it's actions or for any IP issues" is not a sufficient clause in a > license to indemnify you from liability. You almost certainly need to No open-source license I'm aware of says the licensor is not liable for IP issues or claims to indemnify anybody for anything. They merely say that they software is being sold "as-is" and so won't be changed at the licensees request and that the licensee must agree to pay for any damages that the software causes. (I'm quite sure that that damage does NOT refer to any IP violations, etc.) > EXPLICITLY pass the liability of failure onto the user, not just say > "I'm not liable, OK?". I've been saying this for years. Several > lawyers I've spoken to concurred. It is *obvious*. Unfortunately, > nobody seems to have listened until this German piped up. Good on him. That's what every license does now (with effect in the US, apparently not in Germany). The German lawyer want the liability to be assumed by the licensor, in agreement with current German law. Yes, it obvious. >>Employers are in a tricky legal situation when they pay people to write >>software that they can't sell licenses for. (No explanation, except >>that it is a "latent contradiction".) [That was worthless.] >> > Again, it comes back to liability and it's intrinsic connection with > intellectual property and how IP is enforced in the world. You write > software whilst working for a company, the company owns the > software. Except, you've explicitly said they can't sell it or exert > any commercial rights over it, in which case they're not technically > in control of the IP and therefore can't be held liable for the > code. In which case you weren't employed by them, or your contract is > too vague. Seems an obvious point to make to me. I must believe it's the same in the EU and USA: the employee/author is irrelevant in these cases. The dude is just adding to the FUD. If an employer -- it's silly to even be using that term so I'll switch -- if some legal entity owns IP in a derivative he has created, he shares ownership of that derivative with all the other copyright owners and they share all the benefits, liabilities, etc. that come with it. The situation is no different if the license to derive from the external code is paid for with money (eg, what MSFT might do), or paid for with a (cross-)license to use the derivers code (eg, the GPL), or is paid for only in consideration of assuming liability (eg, the BSDL).