From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 10:04:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8942737B404 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB53C43FBD for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: (qmail 77649 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2003 17:04:51 -0000 Received: from niwun.pair.com (HELO localhost) (209.68.2.70) by relay.pair.com with SMTP; 11 Aug 2003 17:04:51 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 209.68.2.70 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:03:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030811120239.F16077@odysseus.silby.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:04:53 -0000 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Robert Watson wrote: > pretty secure. I was thinking about writing one while driving to work > today; I may get around to it this evening sometime, unless someone else Your driving habits are dangerous, Robert. Please stop programming while driving, you're going to get someone killed. Mike "Silby" Silbersack From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 10:19:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB5A37B401 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB6A43F93 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BHJEAL071194; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:19:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)h7BHJER3071190; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:19:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:19:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Mike Silbersack In-Reply-To: <20030811120239.F16077@odysseus.silby.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:19:36 -0000 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Mike Silbersack wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Robert Watson wrote: > > > pretty secure. I was thinking about writing one while driving to work > > today; I may get around to it this evening sometime, unless someone else > > Your driving habits are dangerous, Robert. Please stop programming > while driving, you're going to get someone killed. Hey, if you want unusual computing activities from cars, try this one on. While driving home from the Shenandoah Valley this weekend, we ran into car problems. While waiting for roadside service, I pulled out my notebook, found two access points, and submitted changes on our integration of MAC support into IPsec in Perforce. I ran into about 60 wireless devices on the drive back, of which 35 were APs. 60% of these didn't use WEP. Unfortunately, at 65+ miles an hour, you don't get a whole lot of time to talk to each AP to see if you can get a lease, etc. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 10:27:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1748737B401; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [64.8.50.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C3243FB1; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:27:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030811172731.OPYN8257.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:27:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3F37D202.1080104@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:27:30 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Mike Silbersack cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:27:32 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Mike Silbersack wrote: > >>On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Robert Watson wrote: >> >>>pretty secure. I was thinking about writing one while driving to work >>>today; I may get around to it this evening sometime, unless someone else >> >>Your driving habits are dangerous, Robert. Please stop programming >>while driving, you're going to get someone killed. > > Hey, if you want unusual computing activities from cars, try this one on. > While driving home from the Shenandoah Valley this weekend, we ran into > car problems. While waiting for roadside service, I pulled out my > notebook, found two access points, and submitted changes on our > integration of MAC support into IPsec in Perforce. I ran into about 60 > wireless devices on the drive back, of which 35 were APs. 60% of these > didn't use WEP. Unfortunately, at 65+ miles an hour, you don't get a > whole lot of time to talk to each AP to see if you can get a lease, etc. You encorage me, Rob. Your story tells me that the "law of percentages" is in my favor. It's the same theory that has sold so many car "club"s. If I set up the wireless networks I install with any measure of security whatsoever, it's unlikely that they'll get attacked/cracked simply because there are so many other easy targets. :) -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 10:37:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFD237B404 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C7743F3F for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7BHaeAL073715; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:36:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)h7BHaekd073712; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:36:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3F37D202.1080104@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Mike Silbersack cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:37:04 -0000 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > You encorage me, Rob. > > Your story tells me that the "law of percentages" is in my favor. It's > the same theory that has sold so many car "club"s. > > If I set up the wireless networks I install with any measure of security > whatsoever, it's unlikely that they'll get attacked/cracked simply > because there are so many other easy targets. Fear the world in which WEP is considered a effective deterrant :-). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 10:38:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8C137B401; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [64.8.50.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A60143F93; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030811173828.FDJB26429.mta9.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:38:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:38:27 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:38:29 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > >>You encorage me, Rob. >> >>Your story tells me that the "law of percentages" is in my favor. It's >>the same theory that has sold so many car "club"s. >> >>If I set up the wireless networks I install with any measure of security >>whatsoever, it's unlikely that they'll get attacked/cracked simply >>because there are so many other easy targets. > > Fear the world in which WEP is considered a effective deterrant :-). Fear then. For that is currently the world we live in! -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 14:50:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA3637B401 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.knology.net (smtp1.knology.net [24.214.63.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C80B143FCB for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 21978 invoked from network); 11 Aug 2003 21:50:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 11 Aug 2003 21:50:44 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:50:39 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20030811120239.F16077@odysseus.silby.com> In-Reply-To: <20030811120239.F16077@odysseus.silby.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308111650.39591.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:50:47 -0000 On Monday 11 August 2003 12:03 pm, Mike Silbersack wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Robert Watson wrote: > > pretty secure. I was thinking about writing one while driving to > > work today; I may get around to it this evening sometime, unless > > someone else > > Your driving habits are dangerous, Robert. Please stop programming > while driving, you're going to get someone killed. Quick! Issue a Security Advisory against the roads Robert drives! -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 11 17:55:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A51B37B405 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.smtp-out.sonic.net (a.smtp-out.sonic.net [208.201.224.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F12943FB1 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org) Received: (qmail 11737 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2003 00:55:54 -0000 Received: from ultra.sonic.net (208.201.224.22) by a.smtp-out.sonic.net with SMTP; 12 Aug 2003 00:55:54 -0000 Received: from intruder.kitchenlab.org (adsl-64-142-29-77.sonic.net [64.142.29.77]) by ultra.sonic.net (8.11.6p2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id h7C0tKs11208; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:55:20 -0700 X-envelope-info: Received: from intruder.kitchenlab.org (bmah@localhost [127.0.0.1]) h7C0tqmh045026; Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org) Message-Id: <200308120055.h7C0tqmh045026@intruder.kitchenlab.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: References: Comments: In-reply-to Robert Watson message dated "Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:19:14 -0400." From: "Bruce A. Mah" X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1592498688P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:55:52 -0700 Sender: bmah@intruder.kitchenlab.org cc: Mike Silbersack cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: bmah@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:55:57 -0000 --==_Exmh_-1592498688P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Robert Watson wrote: > I ran into about 60 > wireless devices on the drive back, of which 35 were APs. Are they gonna make you go to traffic school for that? :-) Bruce. --==_Exmh_-1592498688P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.5+ 20020506 iD8DBQE/ODsY2MoxcVugUsMRAqFJAKC/Q2EwwqWvrb8IL+mvGvc4FRsgVwCgjmuG mci5XDWg96op1yIs1jj51Uk= =0B/c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1592498688P-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 02:54:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CC237B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9B043F75 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfigt.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.202.29] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19mVrF-00059r-00; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:54:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3F38B911.402A9FEB@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:53:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4735f2c915d3b7a166903016558ff9605387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:54:30 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > No open-source license I'm aware of says the licensor is not liable > for IP issues or claims to indemnify anybody for anything. They > merely say that they software is being sold "as-is" and so won't be > changed at the licensees request and that the licensee must agree to > pay for any damages that the software causes. (I'm quite sure that > that damage does NOT refer to any IP violations, etc.) The eCOS license does. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 10:46:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E9B37B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B5043F85 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com) Received: from vwinxp.sneakemail.com ([68.155.193.9]) by imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.netESMTP <20030812174617.XBIU23972.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@vwinxp.sneakemail.com> for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:46:17 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030812103946.01a5f008@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:44:50 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton <2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com> In-Reply-To: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:46:22 -0000 Some of those networks you came across may have been left insecure intentionally. I know there's a list of Wi-Fi networks that are "open to the public" for travelers or commuters (but I don't recall where). Some people even like to advertise. http://www.warchalking.org/ If I ever take my home wireless, I will probably start out with an insecure network. I just think it would be interesting to see if anybody could benefit from it. Of course, I doubt there are many wireless computer users around here, but I think it would be an interesting experience nonetheless. And I'll be sure to chalk up the sidewalks appropriately. ;-) Besides, as frustrating as it is the get WEP from multiple vendors working on a network, I can easily understand the appeal of "open wireless." At 01:38 PM 8/11/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >Robert Watson wrote: >>Fear the world in which WEP is considered a effective deterrant :-). > >Fear then. For that is currently the world we live in! > >-- >Bill Moran >Potential Technologies >http://www.potentialtech.com > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 13:11:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E9D37B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F0A43F75 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003081220111001300i4pobe>; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:11:10 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CKAESE022805; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:10:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7CK9kY5022797; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Terry Lambert References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> <9nk79ng6hf.79n@mail.comcast.net> <3F34D951.5080800@iconoplex.co.uk> <3F38B911.402A9FEB@mindspring.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:09:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F38B911.402A9FEB@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:53:21 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:11:15 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: >> No open-source license I'm aware of says the licensor is not liable >> for IP issues or claims to indemnify anybody for anything. They >> merely say that they software is being sold "as-is" and so won't be >> changed at the licensees request and that the licensee must agree to >> pay for any damages that the software causes. (I'm quite sure that >> that damage does NOT refer to any IP violations, etc.) > > The eCOS license does. You mean the old one, I suppose; the new one is basically the GPL. I didn't read much of the long old license, so can't fully disprove your claim, but I have some evidence. Its talk of indemnity is only about the licensee doing the indemnification and then only if he's sublicensing or something. It DOES (uniquely, AFAIK) explicitly disclaim warranty that the code is "NON-INFRINGING". But disclaiming warranty is not the same as saying that the licensor is not liable for infringement. (It's only saying that the work will not necessarily be made non-infringing, free of charge.) It DOES acknowledge (as many license do) that laws might limit the extent to which liability may be disclaimed in contracts, with an uncommon particular mention of that limitation in regard to liability resulting in death or personal injury as a result of the licensor's (and several others') negligence. I'd like to know more about these legal limitations. (I've assumed that they were mostly referring to some fairly recent "consumer laws" which I thought were fairly innocuous.) Upon further thought, I'll admit that the first part of my statement is wrong if ANY general liability disclaimer is saying that the licensor is not liable for IP issues. (Not liable to the licensee, anyway; the licensor is surely liable to the owner of infringed IP.) So do general liability disclaimers say, in effect, that the licensee agrees to not come after the licensor if the licensee is sued for IP infringement because of his use of the licensed work? And is that enforceable? I've never thought that the disclaimer even addressed this issue, but maybe it does (whether enforceable or not). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 15:50:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C39737B40C; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DB843FA3; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: from be-well.ilk.org (be-well.no-ip.com[66.30.200.37]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2003081222500101400kckc1e>; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:50:01 +0000 Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.client2.attbi.com [66.30.200.37] (may be forged)) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7CMo0KS042013; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:50:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h7CMnuvn042006; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:49:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: be-well.ilk.org: lowell set sender to freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org using -f Sender: lowell@be-well.no-ip.com To: Bill Moran References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 12 Aug 2003 18:49:55 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:50:04 -0000 Bill Moran writes: > Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > > > >> You encorage me, Rob. Your story tells me that the "law of > >> percentages" is in my favor. It's > >> the same theory that has sold so many car "club"s. If I set up the > >> wireless networks I install with any measure of security > >> whatsoever, it's unlikely that they'll get attacked/cracked simply > >> because there are so many other easy targets. > > Fear the world in which WEP is considered a effective deterrant :-). > > Fear then. For that is currently the world we live in! WEP is sufficiently insecure that if and when I get around to using wireless at home, I'll need to firewall the wireless net heavily in any case. I may just leave it without WEP for the convenience of occasional visitors (as long as I don't notice strangers hopping onto it much). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 16:23:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5E637B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.mail.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BC743FBD for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:23:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030812232357.GZYR1347.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:23:57 -0400 Message-ID: <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:23:52 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lowell Gilbert References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> In-Reply-To: <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:23:53 -0000 Lowell Gilbert wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > >>Robert Watson wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Bill Moran wrote: >>> >>>>You encorage me, Rob. Your story tells me that the "law of >>>>percentages" is in my favor. It's >>>>the same theory that has sold so many car "club"s. If I set up the >>>>wireless networks I install with any measure of security >>>>whatsoever, it's unlikely that they'll get attacked/cracked simply >>>>because there are so many other easy targets. >>> >>>Fear the world in which WEP is considered a effective deterrant :-). >> >>Fear then. For that is currently the world we live in! > > WEP is sufficiently insecure that if and when I get around to using > wireless at home, I'll need to firewall the wireless net heavily in > any case. I may just leave it without WEP for the convenience of > occasional visitors (as long as I don't notice strangers hopping onto > it much). It's a trade-off ... like most security situations. I currently know of no situations that are secured to my liking. The ridiculous rules I try to enforce always seem to go over the convenience threshold and get shot down. That's OK. I get paid to fix things after they're cracked. And if "I told them so", then I don't bother to feel bad about it. However, the number of users I know whose password is "password" is unnerving, to say the least. And ... as far as I'm concerned, WEP is _completly_ insecure, and totally worthless. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 17:11:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D8237B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.knology.net (smtp3.knology.net [24.214.63.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC2A543FDD for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 8196 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2003 00:10:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp3.knology.net with SMTP; 13 Aug 2003 00:10:59 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:10:59 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> In-Reply-To: <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308121910.59445.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:11:04 -0000 On Tuesday 12 August 2003 05:49 pm, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > WEP is sufficiently insecure that if and when I get around to using > wireless at home, I'll need to firewall the wireless net heavily in > any case. I may just leave it without WEP for the convenience of > occasional visitors (as long as I don't notice strangers hopping onto > it much). Has been my intent when/if I implement wireless to mandate IPsec and forget about WEP. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 19:59:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52A037B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6DE43F85 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7D2wvjX057633; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7D2wv2Q057632; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@FreeBSD.ORG) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:58:57 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Bill Moran Message-ID: <20030813025857.GA57582@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Bill Moran , Lowell Gilbert , chat@freebsd.org References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:59:06 -0000 On Tue, Aug 12, 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > And ... as far as I'm concerned, WEP is _completly_ insecure, and totally > worthless. Doors are completely insecure, too. They usually take a few minutes for an experienced lockpicker to open, so let's just get rid of the whole lock idea. Now let's talk Windows... ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 12 23:31:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3238F37B401 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C6643FA3 for ; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc156.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.4.166] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19mpAS-0004Z6-00; Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:31:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3F39DB0B.626A0457@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:30:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton <2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030812103946.01a5f008@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4f6a28877877a05a0d6c68ede4847d5c7666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:31:39 -0000 Chip Morton wrote: > If I ever take my home wireless, I will probably start out with an insecure > network. I just think it would be interesting to see if anybody could > benefit from it. Of course, I doubt there are many wireless computer users > around here, but I think it would be an interesting experience > nonetheless. And I'll be sure to chalk up the sidewalks appropriately. ;-) > > Besides, as frustrating as it is the get WEP from multiple vendors working > on a network, I can easily understand the appeal of "open wireless." So... how much SPAM will need to be sent from behind your NAT, making it look like it's you who's SPAM'ming, before you close the thing down? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 02:32:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8346837B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6057C43FA3 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:31:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19ms2J-000AHv-H4; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:35:19 +0100 Message-ID: <3F3A0581.9010908@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:31:45 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:32:00 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > And ... as far as I'm concerned, WEP is _completly_ insecure, and totally > worthless. Great, so I send you 10Mb of WEP traffic caught off the air, you can decrypt it for me? You see, to me it's just a big mess of encrypted traffic, but you obviously have some secret technique (or should that be "t3kni|<" ?) for breaking it trivially. If you can't, you've just shown it has some security advantage. Which it has. Oh, and I think you meant that you were guessing WEP is completely UNsecure, and not INsecure. If it was insecure, it would be asking us all to hug it more often. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 02:52:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635AD37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC7743F3F for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7D9prKR091973; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:51:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F3A0581.9010908@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> <3F3A0581.9010908@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:51:34 +0200 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:52:01 -0000 At 10:31 AM +0100 2003/08/13, Paul Robinson wrote: > Great, so I send you 10Mb of WEP traffic caught off the air, you > can decrypt it for me? You see, to me it's just a big mess of > encrypted traffic, but you obviously have some secret technique > (or should that be "t3kni|<" ?) for breaking it trivially. If > you can't, you've just shown it has some security advantage. Which > it has. Given the weak 24-bit IV that is common to both 64-bit and 128-bit WEP, and the way this IV is frequently used, it should be pretty easy to crack. Just a few hours near a busy wireless access point is usually more than enough. If you really do have 10MB of WEP traffic, odds are that's got enough information to be useful. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 05:50:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7ECE37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03D243FCB for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:50:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com) Received: from vwinxp.sneakemail.com ([66.156.91.208]) by imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.netESMTP <20030813125012.QPFX4876.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net@vwinxp.sneakemail.com> for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:50:12 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030813084614.0195ff40@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:50:30 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton <2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com> In-Reply-To: <3F39DB0B.626A0457@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030812103946.01a5f008@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:50:14 -0000 At 02:30 AM 8/13/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >So... how much SPAM will need to be sent from behind your NAT, >making it look like it's you who's SPAM'ming, before you close >the thing down? It would take enough spam to get a complaint sent to my ISP (whoever that is) which makes them take action against me. Until then, I'll take my chances. But honestly, I can't imagine that anybody serious about sending spam is waiting for somebody in this area to set up an open wireless network to wreak havoc. It just seems like a low probability event. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 06:35:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D817D37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta11.adelphia.net (mta11.adelphia.net [64.8.50.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12BC743F3F for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta11.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030813133558.VZJK7060.mta11.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:35:58 -0400 Message-ID: <3F3A3EBD.1090905@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:35:57 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> <3F3A0581.9010908@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3F3A0581.9010908@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:35:59 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > >> And ... as far as I'm concerned, WEP is _completly_ insecure, and totally >> worthless. > > Great, so I send you 10Mb of WEP traffic caught off the air, you can > decrypt it for me? You see, to me it's just a big mess of encrypted > traffic, but you obviously have some secret technique (or should that be > "t3kni|<" ?) for breaking it trivially. If you can't, you've just shown > it has some security advantage. Which it has. Yes, and no. Yes, if you send me 10Mb of WEP traffic I could crack it. And no, it's not a secret. The fact that WEP is cracked has been known for quite some time. I believe it was last spring (but my memory could be off) that a couple of college students actually attempted the exploit to demonstrate whether or not it was really doable. Again, my memory could be off, but I think they showed that it took less than 15 minutes of sniffing to break WEP on average. Their report is quite detailed, including the exact (cheap) hardware that was required to capture the packets. Abuse google if you want the details. The last time I looked the data was still online. And, yes, WEP has _some_ security advantage. About the same amount as locking the screen door on your house has. The terribly easily deterred criminals will give up. You're right, that probably is worth something. > Oh, and I think you meant that you were guessing WEP is completely > UNsecure, and not INsecure. If it was insecure, it would be asking us > all to hug it more often. OK, you caught me at my own game here, Mr English. You're right, I used the word incorrectly. But don't put words in my mouth. WEP _is_ unsecure. There's no guessing about it. *Hugs his WEP* -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 06:45:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F1537B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F72C43FB1 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:45:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DDj4AL076455; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:45:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)h7DDj4bV076452; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:45:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Chip Morton <2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030813084614.0195ff40@threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:45:32 -0000 On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Chip Morton wrote: > At 02:30 AM 8/13/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > >So... how much SPAM will need to be sent from behind your NAT, > >making it look like it's you who's SPAM'ming, before you close > >the thing down? > > It would take enough spam to get a complaint sent to my ISP (whoever > that is) which makes them take action against me. Until then, I'll take > my chances. > > But honestly, I can't imagine that anybody serious about sending spam is > waiting for somebody in this area to set up an open wireless network to > wreak havoc. It just seems like a low probability event. Funny, I know of at least one company that has had a serious problem with spam being delivered using their wireless network -- in their case, it was particularly a problem since they had a very large pipe to the outside world, and a sizeable parking lot. As a home user, you can quite easily find yourself in violation of your AUP, which can be a pain if they actually pull the plug on you. You might also find people using your wireless access to break into other people's systems -- while it's unlikely you'd have any liability in that situation, I think it would be best to discourage the FBI or local law enforcement from turning up on my doorstep unnecessarily, especially if they're looking for evidence relating to computers. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 09:31:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6694137B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D1843F85 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19myZz-000AmD-BK; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:34:31 +0100 Message-ID: <3F3A67BE.8060606@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:30:54 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <3F397708.7050803@potentialtech.com> <3F3A0581.9010908@iconoplex.co.uk> <3F3A3EBD.1090905@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3F3A3EBD.1090905@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:31:07 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > to demonstrate whether or not it was really doable. Again, my memory > could be off, but I think they showed that it took less than 15 minutes > of sniffing to break WEP on average. Their report is quite detailed, > including the exact (cheap) hardware that was required to capture the > packets. Abuse google if you want the details. The last time I looked > the data was still online. It required 2Gbytes of traffic before frequency analysis (the tactic) was viable. Since then, if you've patched your firmware, you'll have stronger crypto available. If you don't patch, you don't enable it, whatever, that's your problem, not WEP's. Sure, like any other security issue, there will be sites running poor WEP crypto, but again, that's like any other security vulnerability. > OK, you caught me at my own game here, Mr English. You're right, I used > the word incorrectly. But don't put words in my mouth. WEP _is_ > unsecure. There's no guessing about it. Not much more so than most other on-the-wire public key crypto systems. > *Hugs his WEP* Awwwww.... but I thought it was evil? :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 10:10:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DAC37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16A243FCB for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25416; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:10:39 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030813110822.02f00ce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:10:31 -0600 To: Chip Morton <2m5mefx02@sneakemail.com>, FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030808105028.018effd0@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: Good news, Brett! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:10:52 -0000 At 08:51 AM 8/8/2003, Chip Morton wrote: >Pack your bags, you're moving to Germany! > >http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/08/06/HNgplunenforceable_1.html Why? His arguments, while they may be valid, aren't the strongest ones against the enforceability of the GPL. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 10:14:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABD037B401; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6056D43F93; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25479; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:14:20 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030813111143.02f00900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:14:10 -0600 To: Robert Watson , Mike Silbersack From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <20030811120239.F16077@odysseus.silby.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:14:26 -0000 At 11:19 AM 8/11/2003, Robert Watson wrote: >Hey, if you want unusual computing activities from cars, try this one on. >While driving home from the Shenandoah Valley this weekend, we ran into >car problems. If you'd watched where you were going, you would have stopped before hitting them. ;-) > While waiting for roadside service, I pulled out my >notebook, found two access points, and submitted changes on our >integration of MAC support into IPsec in Perforce. I ran into about 60 >wireless devices on the drive back, of which 35 were APs. 60% of these >didn't use WEP. That's typical. Even in our little town, there are lots and lots of open APs. Ours, however, let you see only a friendly introductory Web page until you log in, with reliable, strong encryption (not WEP). --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 10:40:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B35937B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.knology.net (smtp2.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2CD0243FAF for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 24320 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2003 17:40:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 13 Aug 2003 17:40:52 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:40:51 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030812103946.01a5f008@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20030813084614.0195ff40@threespace.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030813084614.0195ff40@threespace.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308131240.51898.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:40:56 -0000 On Wednesday 13 August 2003 07:50 am, Chip Morton wrote: > > It would take enough spam to get a complaint sent to my ISP (whoever > that is) which makes them take action against me. Until then, I'll > take my chances. Only one nastygram to president@whitehouse.gov from your network and you'll have lots of action in a mater of hours. Button down the hatches before that happens because if it does then you are responsible and there are no excuses. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 11:16:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DE237B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0BF43FAF for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: from be-well.ilk.org (be-well.no-ip.com[66.30.200.37]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2003081318164701400kd4kne>; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:16:48 +0000 Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.client2.attbi.com [66.30.200.37] (may be forged)) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7DIGkKS075653 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:16:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.no-ip.com) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h7DIGkUj075650; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:16:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: be-well.ilk.org: lowell set sender to freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org using -f Sender: lowell@be-well.no-ip.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3F37D493.9050604@potentialtech.com> <44lltyij8s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <200308121910.59445.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 13 Aug 2003 14:16:45 -0400 In-Reply-To: <200308121910.59445.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Message-ID: <44wudhbeya.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:16:49 -0000 David Kelly writes: > On Tuesday 12 August 2003 05:49 pm, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > > > WEP is sufficiently insecure that if and when I get around to using > > wireless at home, I'll need to firewall the wireless net heavily in > > any case. I may just leave it without WEP for the convenience of > > occasional visitors (as long as I don't notice strangers hopping onto > > it much). > > Has been my intent when/if I implement wireless to mandate IPsec and > forget about WEP. That's more or less on the same page; it fits nicely in my comment about needing to firewall in any case. However, WEP and IPSec are not quite as interchangeable as David Kelly makes them sound. Even without access to the outside world, intruders could make themselves a nuisance. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 13 16:48:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4B037B401 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.knology.net (smtp2.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A37943F75 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 7711 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2003 23:48:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 13 Aug 2003 23:48:05 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:48:04 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200308121910.59445.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> <44wudhbeya.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> In-Reply-To: <44wudhbeya.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200308131848.04819.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Security Advisory FreeBSD-SA-03:09.signal X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:48:07 -0000 On Wednesday 13 August 2003 01:16 pm, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > However, WEP and IPSec are not quite as interchangeable as David > Kelly makes them sound. Even without access to the outside world, > intruders could make themselves a nuisance. A DOS nuisance, yes. Without IPSec they can occupy the same frequency but they will not talk to any hosts or over any wires I have control over. IPSec should be built into wireless access points if the manufacturers of wireless equipment actually cared about security. Lacking that, I'll have to make my own access points out of FreeBSD systems. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 00:43:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF7B37B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-107-97.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.107.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1015743FD7 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from rot13.obsecurity.org (rot13.obsecurity.org [10.0.0.5]) by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6CA66B60; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rot13.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1FB857A8; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:43:36 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030814074336.GA58098@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <200308140525.XAA02934@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200308140525.XAA02934@lariat.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:26:45 -0700 cc: freebsd-crap@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: All "GNU" software potentially Trojaned X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:43:38 -0000 --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 11:25:04PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > CERT Advisory CA-2003-21 GNU Project FTP Server Compromise This never would have happened if they had used the BSDL! Kris --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/Oz2nWry0BWjoQKURAk5rAKCM6oGNAJfeNHFwaS0KJyLFcQ+nAwCgnweH Mq/d8BMv45ziGNoSUZBjp88= =088k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 01:53:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2831837B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DE3343FA3 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:53:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfikd.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.202.141] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19nDqu-0003Iq-00; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:53:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3F3B4DB2.668850F6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:52:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway References: <200308140525.XAA02934@lariat.org> <20030814074336.GA58098@rot13.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a44cbfb6adb4d6567fc31072255c0f7a49666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-crap@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: All "GNU" software potentially Trojaned X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:53:06 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 11:25:04PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > CERT Advisory CA-2003-21 GNU Project FTP Server Compromise > > This never would have happened if they had used the BSDL! Of course it wouldn't have... with the BSDL, they would not have been required t give away their source code if they didn't want to do so. The GPL practically forced them to hack the FTP server in order to comply with the provision requiring that the source code be given away in all cases. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 11:43:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE9B37B405 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.covadmail.net (mx01.covadmail.net [63.65.120.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFE5243FBD for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: (covad.net 27966 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2003 18:43:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ice.nodomain) (68.164.192.245) by sun-qmail13 with SMTP; 14 Aug 2003 18:43:10 -0000 Received: from ice.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ice.nodomain (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h7EIhC1u000525; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@ice.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by ice.nodomain (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h7EIhCtl000524; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dan@ice.nodomain Subject: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:43:16 -0000 Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. In what way is this different from a normal Microsoft product? mostly just curious - Dan Strick strick@covad.net From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 11:44:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6913537B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.mail.adelphia.net [64.8.50.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5244A43FE5 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030814184456.QZIT1347.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:44:56 -0400 Message-ID: <3F3BD898.6010408@potentialtech.com> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:44:40 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Strick References: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dan@ice.nodomain cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:44:42 -0000 Dan Strick wrote: > Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the > new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service > attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the > system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. > > In what way is this different from a normal Microsoft product? It costs less? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 11:44:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E08937B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [64.81.53.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD1A43F75 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8470A3A219; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:44:57 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Dan Strick Message-ID: <20030814114457.N863@seven.alameda.net> References: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain>; from strick@covad.net on Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:43:12AM -0700 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE cc: dan@ice.nodomain cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:44:58 -0000 On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:43:12AM -0700, Dan Strick wrote: > Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the > new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service > attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the > system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. > > In what way is this different from a normal Microsoft product? > > mostly just curious - > Dan Strick > strick@covad.net Although M$ products like to crash, they stay up longer then 1 minute. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 11:46:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E22137B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED0143FE9 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08114; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:46:10 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814124234.02a08540@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:46:04 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030814074336.GA58098@rot13.obsecurity.org> References: <200308140525.XAA02934@lariat.org> <200308140525.XAA02934@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-crap@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: All "GNU" software potentially Trojaned X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:46:22 -0000 At 01:43 AM 8/14/2003, Kris Kennaway wrote: >On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 11:25:04PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> CERT Advisory CA-2003-21 GNU Project FTP Server Compromise > >This never would have happened if they had used the BSDL! Not true, of course. But on the other hand, the fact that FreeBSD uses their code means that it may have integrated Trojaned source. Another reason to avoid using code from a group that's not only unethical and malicious but also careless about security. Kris, as a member of FreeBSD's security team I hope you're checking to make sure that Trojaned code was not included. (The most effective way would, of course, be to remove the GNU code from FreeBSD, but while I'd like to see that done it's probably too much to hope for.) --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 12:02:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15EA37B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from priv-edtnes11-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9D543F3F for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from viktorlazlo@telus.net) Received: from njamn8or ([207.6.240.165]) by priv-edtnes11-hme0.telusplanet.netESMTP <20030814190252.BMWL26708.priv-edtnes11-hme0.telusplanet.net@njamn8or>; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:02:52 -0600 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:02:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Viktor Lazlo X-X-Sender: viktorlazlo@njamn8or.no-ip.org To: Dan Strick In-Reply-To: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Message-ID: <20030814120208.O1513@njamn8or.no-ip.org> References: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: dan@ice.nodomain cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:02:54 -0000 On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Dan Strick wrote: > Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the > new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service > attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the > system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. > > In what way is this different from a normal Microsoft product? The difference is that unlike a normal Micrsoft product, the virus actually does something . . . Cheers, Viktor From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 12:11:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFAA37B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040BA43F3F for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08378; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:11:32 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814130953.03870260@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:11:27 -0600 To: Dan Strick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: dan@ice.nodomain Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:11:42 -0000 At 12:43 PM 8/14/2003, Dan Strick wrote: >Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the >new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service >attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the >system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. > >In what way is this different from a normal Microsoft product? You don't have to hire an expensive MCSE to install it. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 13:57:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43ADC37B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3D643F93 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (rocky [192.168.0.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7EKvM7Q085416; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:57:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F3BF7B1.3040704@401.cx> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:57:21 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Strick References: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> In-Reply-To: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:57:40 -0000 Dan Strick wrote: > Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the > new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service > attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the > system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. > > In what way is this different from a normal Microsoft product? > > mostly just curious - > Dan Strick > strick@covad.net The worm crashes the machine exactly every 60 seconds. None of the m$ products I know is that predictable. -- R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 16:14:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809B237B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC8043FDD for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11026; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:13:47 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030814171247.027ebbf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:13:39 -0600 To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" , Dan Strick From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3F3BF7B1.3040704@401.cx> References: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:14:12 -0000 At 02:57 PM 8/14/2003, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >The worm crashes the machine exactly every 60 seconds. You mean you've figured out a way to reboot Windows in 60 seconds (as opposed to the usual 60 minutes)? ;-) --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 14 16:34:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8E637B401 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [216.136.174.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B47743FAF for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:34:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaeru@pd.jaring.my) Received: from unknown (HELO ?219.95.62.3?) (khairil?yusof@219.95.62.3 with plain) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Aug 2003 23:34:27 -0000 From: Khairil Yusof To: Dan Strick In-Reply-To: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> References: <200308141843.h7EIhCtl000524@ice.nodomain> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-yX0RBCRmbBY+LrHdQ6TH" Message-Id: <1060904061.753.16.camel@daemon.home.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:34:22 +0800 cc: dan@ice.nodomain cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Question about MSblaster worm X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:34:29 -0000 --=-yX0RBCRmbBY+LrHdQ6TH Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 2003-08-15 at 02:43, Dan Strick wrote: > Recently I have seen a lot of newspaper articles warning about the > new "MSblaster" worm. They say that it uses a denial of service > attack mode. Once it installs itself on your system it causes the > system to crash and makes it difficult for you to get any work done. I see great benefits so far here in Malaysia. Perfect time to be the miracle worker.=20 - faster internet speed:=20 All those Windows users now offline. They can't even go online to get windows updated because they get hit immediately. - advocacy of freebsd/linux/open source solutions People are just desperate to get some work done.. Not affected? Can open Word documents? I can continue working? Less than the cost of AV licenses? No licenses needed to set up a firewall? -- "Optimized, readable, on time; Pick any two."=20 FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT i386=20 7:21AM up 8:12, 1 user, load averages: 0.17, 0.14, 0.09 --=-yX0RBCRmbBY+LrHdQ6TH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA/PBx9DAqnLW/+/X8RAo6OAKDRx3tb+l3RSfZLty2HUDtPhDFe/wCgy5Ks fldxOyAqf11txXUlIaK0m/4= =MwhA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-yX0RBCRmbBY+LrHdQ6TH-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 15 01:48:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D68A37B401 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958CA43F75 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj3i.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.114] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19naGH-0002WI-00; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:48:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3F3C9E22.D24F3C0A@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:47:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Glenn Johnson References: <20030814225453.GA1385@node1.cluster.srrc.usda.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a478de3929f986a1641c4918d076f8839c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: password strength checking not consistently implemented X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:48:44 -0000 Glenn Johnson wrote: > I have set up the password strength checking system using > pam_passwdqc.so, set in /etc/pam.d/passwd. I have also set up password > expiration. > > When a user issues the 'passwd' command, the password strength checking > module works as expected. When a user logs in via the console after the > password expiry time has passed, the login program prompts for a new > password before the session begins. However, this password change has > no strength check at all. Is there some other change I need to make to > may pam configuration? "Posted for someone who wishes to remain anyonyous": ---- I have this same problem. With password strength checking in place, it drastically reduces the search space that I need to cover in order to perform a brute force attack, by disallowing a large portion of the space I would otherwise need to pay attention to searching. Without the strength checking on the password change, I have to reexpand my search space to the entire search space, and it takes a lot longer to crack passwords. Please put a uniform "strength checking" algorithm in everywhere... Thanks, A. Hacker ---- 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 15 09:30:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38EF37B401 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EB043F75 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20030815163005014003mbroe>; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:30:05 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7FGT3SE081469; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7FGSseG081468; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Terry Lambert References: <20030814225453.GA1385@node1.cluster.srrc.usda.gov> <3F3C9E22.D24F3C0A@mindspring.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:28:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F3C9E22.D24F3C0A@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:47:30 -0700") Message-ID: <9ek79edgvu.79e@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Glenn Johnson Subject: Re: password strength checking not consistently implemented X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:30:07 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Without the strength checking on the password change, I have to > reexpand my search space to the entire search space, and it takes > a lot longer to crack passwords. ... > Thanks, > A. Hacker I'd think that that would depend on the people choosing passwords and whether the cracker is going after one particular user or just any one of many. I'd expect it, on average, to take a lot less long if you start your search well: "password", "drowssap", etc. (I guess it makes sense that "A. Hacker" WOULD try to discourage password strength checking. :) This reminds me of the guy who insisted on setting his lock with truly random numbers and his truly random number generator spit out 0, 0, 0 (or whatever the factory default was). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 15 13:19:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B88E37B401 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0B243FAF for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:19:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20030815201940014003lod6e>; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:19:41 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7FKIXSE083788; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7FKIRWF083787; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: fcash@sd73.bc.ca References: <20030814225453.GA1385@node1.cluster.srrc.usda.gov> <3F3C9E22.D24F3C0A@mindspring.com> <9ek79edgvu.79e@mail.comcast.net> <200308150934.57206.fcash@sd73.bc.ca> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:18:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200308150934.57206.fcash@sd73.bc.ca> (Freddie Cash's message of "Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:34:57 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: password strength checking not consistently implemented X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:19:42 -0000 Freddie Cash writes: > On August 15, 2003 09:28 am, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >> (I guess it makes sense that "A. Hacker" WOULD try to discourage >> password strength checking. :) > > Actually, Mr. Hacker is advocating the use of strength checkers. Actually, he wasn't; he was being ironic -- to discourage it's use. > Consider the entire keyspace of all passwords. Now remove from that > keyspace all passwords that are less than 8 characters, are made up of > dictionary words, are all numbers, and so on. What you are left with > is a *much* smaller keyspace to brute force your way through. > > IOW, the strength checkers actually make it easier to crack the > passwords ... as there are fewer combinations to check against. > > This is assuming that the cracker knows which strength checker is being > used so they know which parts of the keyspace to drop. I think you've changed the subject from "crack [any] passwords" to "crack [all] passwords". Your claim is true on average for the "all passwords" case, since the brute force method will often have to be resorted to in that case, unless the password choosers are all morons. But if we're talking about a cracker finding any one of a large number of passwords chosen by careless users, then crackers will find their work easier if people don't use strength checkers. This the more typical case which I thought Mr. Hacker was concerned about. I can't speak for all strength checkers; I guess it's possible for them to reduce the "keyspace" too far, but I've seen no evidence that that's the case for typical checkers, and there's plenty of evidence that crackers use dictionaries and that password choosers are foolish. And if you're worried about someone brute forcing a reduced keyspace, you probably should be using something better than passwords. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Aug 15 23:44:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E23A37B401 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B0743FE0 for ; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivflb5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.213.101] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19nunT-0002NL-00; Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:44:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3F3DD290.D237F6D2@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:43:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20030814225453.GA1385@node1.cluster.srrc.usda.gov> <3F3C9E22.D24F3C0A@mindspring.com> <9ek79edgvu.79e@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47933de8dcc44466b670790d59a6638c4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Glenn Johnson Subject: Re: password strength checking not consistently implemented X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:44:29 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > I'd think that that would depend on the people choosing passwords and > whether the cracker is going after one particular user or just any one > of many. I'd expect it, on average, to take a lot less long if you > start your search well: "password", "drowssap", etc. > > (I guess it makes sense that "A. Hacker" WOULD try to discourage > password strength checking. :) > > This reminds me of the guy who insisted on setting his lock with truly > random numbers and his truly random number generator spit out 0, 0, 0 > (or whatever the factory default was). You're assuming that everyone uses dictionary attacks, which is really not true these days. Actually, thanks to strength-checkers, most crackers have switched to brute-force, since dictionary attacks no longer work. For some definitions of "strength checking", they can also ignore the search space where passwords contain all alphabetic characters. In general, they pick an account and brute force the password for a single account (or all accounts with a given salt). This begs the question of how, if you aren't running NIS, they got access to your shadow password file in the first place. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 16 09:16:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC85437B408 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loops.nilpotent.org (loops.nilpotent.org [12.17.163.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 13AAC44088 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.org) Received: (qmail 97844 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2003 11:25:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (root@203.215.182.111) by loops.nilpotent.org with QMTP; 16 Aug 2003 11:25:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 1276 invoked by uid 500); 16 Aug 2003 11:25:41 -0000 To: chat@freebsd.org X-nil: X-Useless-info: System load is 0.01 with 76 processes active. X-Neuromancer: Sun's up, Case. From: Faried Nawaz Organization: Integral Domains Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:25:41 +0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.5 (cassava, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: lists <-> news X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:17:01 -0000 Hello, Is there a mail-to-news gateway for the FreeBSD lists? I'm on dialup and I'd prefer something like that to downloading list mail. My local news server carries the muc.* lists, but they don't seem to get a lot of articles; maybe my newsfeed is busted (news seems to be the lowest priority of all organizations, except maybe Google). I have a static IP, if it helps. I'm okay with a one-way feed (ie, I can post/reply via mail). Thanks, Faried. -- The Great GNU has arrived, infidels, behold his wrath ! "If a MOO runs on a port no one accesses, does it run?" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 16 09:54:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DFC437B401 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobile.hub.org (u173n10.eastlink.ca [24.224.173.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E9D43F3F for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: by mobile.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6B79C20B; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:54:14 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114011E7; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:54:13 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:54:12 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Faried Nawaz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030816135324.W570@hub.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lists <-> news X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:54:17 -0000 the mailing.* hierarchy appears to be one of the better ones ... the only beef I have with them is that they don't seem to honor the Message-ID from the original list, which makes it very difficult to setup any redundancy ... On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Faried Nawaz wrote: > > Hello, > > Is there a mail-to-news gateway for the FreeBSD lists? I'm on dialup and > I'd prefer something like that to downloading list mail. My local news > server carries the muc.* lists, but they don't seem to get a lot of > articles; maybe my newsfeed is busted (news seems to be the lowest priority > of all organizations, except maybe Google). > > I have a static IP, if it helps. I'm okay with a one-way feed (ie, I can > post/reply via mail). > > > Thanks, > > Faried. > -- > The Great GNU has arrived, infidels, behold his wrath ! > "If a MOO runs on a port no one accesses, does it run?" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 16 10:24:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F16D37B401 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD2343F75 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003081617240901300meug4e>; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:24:09 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7GHMtSE087552; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7GHMn7d087551; Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Terry Lambert References: <20030814225453.GA1385@node1.cluster.srrc.usda.gov> <3F3C9E22.D24F3C0A@mindspring.com> <9ek79edgvu.79e@mail.comcast.net> <3F3DD290.D237F6D2@mindspring.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:22:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F3DD290.D237F6D2@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:43:28 -0700") Message-ID: <5d7k5dcyae.k5d@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Glenn Johnson Subject: Re: password strength checking not consistently implemented X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:24:11 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > You're assuming that everyone uses dictionary attacks, which is > really not true these days. No, I was assuming that crackers COULD use dictionary attacks. I won't quote it again, but you clearly implied that it takes "a lot longer" to crack passwords in the absence of strength checking. Maybe that's true if YOU assume that crackers can't use dictionaries (though I still doubt if it takes "a lot" longer). But they can and would use dictionaries in the absense of strength checking and it would not take a lot longer to crack passwords. It would take less time, on average. This whole discussion breaks down eventually, because if crackers are taking account of strength checking, then they are using a form of dictionary attack. They are searching the keyspace starting with the most likely passwords, however crudely this is done. But maybe you meant to say that brute force methods are so good that they will always use brute force instead of dictionaries, whether or not the latter are sometimes faster. So we might as well allow all of the passwords to be "password", as long as our lack of strength checking "forces" crackers to search the whole keyspace so they wind up cracking fewer of them. That makes SOME sense, but people shouldn't be expected to be altruistic enough take on the risk that all those "password" passwords won't be exploited, maybe manually. > Actually, thanks to strength-checkers, most crackers have switched > to brute-force, since dictionary attacks no longer work. For some > definitions of "strength checking", they can also ignore the search > space where passwords contain all alphabetic characters. So convince me. What did you mean by "a lot longer"? For one password, are we talking a millisecond or a week or what? It it long enough for me to care how much longer it takes? Is it worth the risk of allowing passwords like "password"?