From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 00:09:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C8716A4BF; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pd4mo2so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4294F43FCB; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from pd6mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd6mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.217]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKH00IH62KGWY@l-daemon>; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:09:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca (pn2ml6so-qfe0.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.121.150]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.16 (built May 14 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKH006A62KG7K@l-daemon>; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:09:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk (h24-87-233-42.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.233.42])2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKH00A912KF24@l-daemon>; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:09:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:09:47 -0700 From: Colin Percival In-reply-to: <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca To: Andreas Klemm , Christer Solskogen Message-id: <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:09:54 -0000 At 08:50 31/08/2003 +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: >IMHO I think its a good thing that a normal FreeBSD installation >includes bind and sendmail. This makes FreeBSD a complete >(standard/traditional) Unix after basic installation. I disagree. There's lots of important stuff in the ports tree -- cvsup, portupgrade, various languages -- which are pretty basic elements of FreeBSD these days. No sane person is going to be running just the base FreeBSD system except in very unusual circumstances. The ports tree may have once been a set of FreeBSD ports of software written for other operating systems, but it is now useful primarily as a packaging system. Ideally, things like sendmail and bind would be taken out of the base system, and sysinstall would offer people the option of installing sendmail/qmail/exim/portfix/nothing and bind/djbdns/nothing; for that matter, most things under contrib/ are probably good candidates for removing from base. The problem, of course, is actually getting it done. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 00:35:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1628516A4BF for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D6043FCB for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:35:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7V7Z5aK069034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:35:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)h7V7Z5MN069033; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:35:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7V7UpLL098864; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:30:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7V7UlR5098603; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 09:30:47 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030831073046.GA76521@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:35:09 -0000 On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 12:09:47AM -0700, Colin Percival wrote: > At 08:50 31/08/2003 +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > >IMHO I think its a good thing that a normal FreeBSD installation > >includes bind and sendmail. This makes FreeBSD a complete > >(standard/traditional) Unix after basic installation. > > I disagree. There's lots of important stuff in the ports tree -- cvsup, > portupgrade, various languages -- which are pretty basic elements of > FreeBSD these days. No sane person is going to be running just the base > FreeBSD system except in very unusual circumstances. cvsup needs modula to compile. You would have to add modula 3 into the FreeBSD build environment, thats one big reason why you won't see cvsup in FreeBSDs base system. Portupgrade relies on ruby. Same issue here. These are the things that the FreeBSD developers dislike, a bloated FreeBSD with tools that need a bunch of other tools as a prerequisite. rewrite cvsup and portupgrade in C or C++, then I think these tools could go in. Like mergemaster, which was at the beginning also a port but has been migrated into base system when the two following two things has been met: a) stable enough b) has a maintainer in the base system who takes care of it in all active release branches > The ports tree may have once been a set of FreeBSD ports of software > written for other operating systems, but it is now useful primarily as a > packaging system. Ideally, things like sendmail and bind would be taken > out of the base system, and sysinstall would offer people the option of > installing sendmail/qmail/exim/portfix/nothing and bind/djbdns/nothing; for > that matter, most things under contrib/ are probably good candidates for > removing from base. I disagree here. sendmail and bind have a long tradition in the FreeBSD base system. So everybody expect them there. You would have to write wrappers for all those tools, sendmail and bind, so that they appear to be in the base system paths ... /usr/bin, /usr/sbin etc .... I would dislike seeing sendmail and bind commands somewhere under /usr/local. Another thing is, that tools that live under /usr/src IMHO are naturally better integrated into the base system and are better tested and reviewed than tools that live under /usr/local ! FreeBSD developer who have commit rights under /usr/src certainly take better care of what comes into /usr/src and what not ! Ports sometimes get updated a bit "sloppy". Therefore I prefer a well tested sendmail and bind in the base system, that getting all this bits from ports. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 4.8-STABLE Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 03:48:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9FE16A4BF; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71BD43FE0; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:48:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0895210BFAA; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:48:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:48:20 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20030831104819.GA395@FreeBSD.org> References: <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: Christer Solskogen cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:48:26 -0000 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2003.08.31 00:09:47 -0700, Colin Percival wrote: > packaging system. Ideally, things like sendmail and bind would be taken= =20 > out of the base system, and sysinstall would offer people the option of= =20 As stated in the archives, bind can't just be removed due to the resolver code being used in libc. > installing sendmail/qmail/exim/portfix/nothing and bind/djbdns/nothing; f= or=20 Bernsteins programs can't be distributed, since we are not allowed to distribute modified binary versions. Besides, sysinstall in 5.x actually allows to install exim/postfix to use instead of sendmail. Sysinstall doesn't remove sendmail, but it's just not used. > that matter, most things under contrib/ are probably good candidates for= =20 > removing from base. > The problem, of course, is actually getting it done. A lot of the things in contrib/ are important to normal operation of a FreeBSD system, e.g. compilers, groff (for manual pages) and many more. Well, I guess that was enough repeating of what's in the archives multiple times already :-). --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/UdJzh9pcDSc1mlERAlkoAJ0Y5cS9WLl/Bu0cPGcXHiuinPg6BgCgprW8 8lFXNuMLYWjLB3q1tz2R6Qk= =ZIrB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 07:31:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C700716A4C0 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [193.197.184.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D946543FF3 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with gbsmtp id 19tTFA-0007LP-03; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:31:52 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h7VE1AAk053887 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:01:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h7VE1A91053886 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:01:10 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:01:09 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030831073046.GA76521@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:31:56 -0000 Andreas Klemm wrote: > rewrite cvsup and portupgrade in C or C++, then I think these tools > could go in. This is actually happening, sort of, for cvsup. Masahide Maekawa has created cvsync (ports/net/cvsync), a designated replacement for cvsup, written in plain C, with POSIX threads as the only noteworthy requirement. So far cvsync still misses checkout mode, but otherwise it already provides equivalent functionality to cvsup. It isn't compatible with cvsup, though. I don't expect FreeBSD users to flock to cvsync anytime soon, since FreeBSD has an extensive cvsup infrastructure and hardly anybody runs FreeBSD on a platform where cvsup isn't available. There is more pressure in the NetBSD and OpenBSD camps, where cvsup is not very entrenched and availability across a wide range of platforms is a significant concern. Once cvsync is feature complete and development settles down, I expect a push to import it into the respective base systems. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 13:12:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC38D16A4BF for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4A443FB1 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:12:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7VKBwVP089515 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:11:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:09:31 +0200 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:12:04 -0000 Folks, I've been trying to do a 128x128 icon of the FreeBSD beastie for MacOS X. I have looked at the images at , , , and , but none of them appear to have a clean graphic that is large enough to work with. I've also done some Googling, turning up , , , and . Unfortunately, doesn't seem to be around anymore -- it would be a good start, since it's rather large (151x161). Another option would be , but again, it no longer seems to exist. And (151x190). There is (266x274), but he seems to be holding a flag and not a trident, and is also a quite color-reduced image. Then there is (150x150), but it is quite muddy. Same problem with (140x140). And (165x159). I did find and (both 400x475), but they seem to be enlargements of smaller images and not very good quality. Has anyone taken the image at (576x654) and cleaned it up, removed the background, etc...? Or (672x561)? There is (326x352), which is not bad. Of course, it's more stylized and doesn't have the color depth of the other images. If I can't find anything better, I may end up using this. Is there anything else I've missed? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 14:50:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC63116A4BF; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90B443FD7; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (12-206-23-247.client.attbi.com [12.206.23.247]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217B72A41F; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (localhost.techno.pagans [127.0.0.1]) by speck.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id 8555AC0D9; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:50:15 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Message-Id: <20030831145015.309eed78.dmp@bitfreak.org> In-Reply-To: <20030831104819.GA395@FreeBSD.org> References: <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030831104819.GA395@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Christer Solskogen cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:50:16 -0000 On 2003-08-31 12:48:20 +0200, simon@FreeBSD.org wrote: > On 2003.08.31 00:09:47 -0700, Colin Percival wrote: > > > installing sendmail/qmail/exim/portfix/nothing and > > bind/djbdns/nothing; for > > Bernsteins programs can't be distributed, since we are not allowed to > distribute modified binary versions. > > Besides, sysinstall in 5.x actually allows to install exim/postfix to > use instead of sendmail. Sysinstall doesn't remove sendmail, but it's > just not used. Where is this option? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 14:58:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F9F16A4C0 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387AD43FE9 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20030831215729014000u5mqe>; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:57:29 +0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Brad Knowles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030831145607.N68829@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:58:12 -0000 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: > Folks, > > I've been trying to do a 128x128 icon of the FreeBSD beastie for > MacOS X. > Is there anything else I've missed? You didn't mention what you're planning to use this icon for. If it's for your own personal use, then no worries. If it's for something other than your own use on your own computers, make sure you get permission of the copyright holder to distribute your version of the image. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 15:48:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0ACF16A4BF for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8496943F3F for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:48:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2F5DB10BFAA; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 00:48:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 00:48:25 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Darren Pilgrim Message-ID: <20030831224823.GF395@FreeBSD.org> References: <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <5.0.2.1.1.20030830235954.02dd9620@popserver.sfu.ca> <20030831104819.GA395@FreeBSD.org> <20030831145015.309eed78.dmp@bitfreak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pY3vCvL1qV+PayAL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030831145015.309eed78.dmp@bitfreak.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:48:27 -0000 --pY3vCvL1qV+PayAL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [CC: trimmed] On 2003.08.31 14:50:15 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > On 2003-08-31 12:48:20 +0200, simon@FreeBSD.org wrote: > > On 2003.08.31 00:09:47 -0700, Colin Percival wrote: > >=20 > > > installing sendmail/qmail/exim/portfix/nothing and > > > bind/djbdns/nothing; for=20 > >=20 > > Bernsteins programs can't be distributed, since we are not allowed to > > distribute modified binary versions. > > > > Besides, sysinstall in 5.x actually allows to install exim/postfix to > > use instead of sendmail. Sysinstall doesn't remove sendmail, but it's > > just not used. >=20 > Where is this option? Configure -> Networking -> MTA But it was actually committed after 5.1, so it hasn't been in any real FreeBSD release yet, only -CURRENT snapshots. I should have been more clean about that. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --pY3vCvL1qV+PayAL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/Uns3h9pcDSc1mlERAirvAJ9FNOB9NwIppY9mNUraLNxPttKGsQCghIAQ d4AJ0iTC+reLL5SMrKLu7cQ= =zE+i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pY3vCvL1qV+PayAL-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 16:15:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95DF016A4C0; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B1843F93; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h7VNFPVP097659; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:15:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030831145607.N68829@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <20030831145607.N68829@znfgre.qbhto.arg> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 00:07:18 +0200 To: Doug Barton From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:15:30 -0000 At 2:57 PM -0700 2003/08/31, Doug Barton wrote: > You didn't mention what you're planning to use this icon for. If it's > for your own personal use, then no worries. If it's for something other > than your own use on your own computers, make sure you get permission of > the copyright holder to distribute your version of the image. Primarily for personal use. If I can ever manage to create an actual decent icon (not too much worse than most of the other icon sets I've downloaded), then I'd consider whether or not I want to try to share that. In that case, I'd go back to the source of the graphic I started with, to see if I can work back to the original artist and get permission to use their version. Of course, I'd also contact Kirk for his permission. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 31 20:02:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3C116A4C0 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5125743FE5 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:02:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bobb@fastmail.fm) Received: from www.fastmail.fm (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0120A15EAB2; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 10.202.2.132 ([10.202.2.132] helo=www.fastmail.fm) by messagingengine.com with SMTP; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:00:48 -0400 Received: by www.fastmail.fm (Postfix, from userid 99) id E08B83A25F; Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Bobb Shires" To: "Brad Knowles" , "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:00:44 -0400 X-Epoch: 1062385248 X-Sasl-enc: W8LaGSBm8LkEuUCd/EMd2Q References: ARRAY(0xa022d84) In-Reply-To: ARRAY(0xa058f78) Message-Id: <20030901030044.E08B83A25F@www.fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 03:02:23 -0000 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:09:31 +0200, "Brad Knowles" said: > Folks, > > I've been trying to do a 128x128 icon of the FreeBSD beastie for > MacOS X. I have looked at the images at ... Don't remember where I found this but it might help you. http://www.smv.org/images/beastie.gif -- Bobb Shires bobb@fastmail.fm From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 03:39:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C035916A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 03:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B274401F for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 03:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19tm6X-00061B-00 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:40:13 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19tm4Z-000604-00 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:38:11 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19tm3x-0003pO-00 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:37:33 +0200 From: Luis Neves Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:37:39 +0100 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 Sender: news Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 10:39:39 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > Is there anything else I've missed? There are some cool Beastie images (although not your traditional Beastie) in this Korean FreeBSD site: http://www.kr.freebsd.org/gallery/ (at the bottom, click the thumbnail) I've used those images in the past to make a 5.0 RELEASE CD-Cover: http://pwp.netcabo.pt/lneves/freebsd_cd_cover/FreeBSD50_CD_Cover.pdf Regards, Luis Neves From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 07:23:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5FB16A4DA for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 07:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C22E4400D for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 07:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19tpb0-00035q-00; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 07:23:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 07:23:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030831104819.GA395@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:23:59 -0000 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > As stated in the archives, bind can't just be removed due to the > resolver code being used in libc. Then just that "resolver" code could be used (and not entire BIND suite). > > installing sendmail/qmail/exim/portfix/nothing and bind/djbdns/nothing; for > > Bernsteins programs can't be distributed, since we are not allowed to > distribute modified binary versions. Or another alternative is his resolver code. His low-level DNS resolver routines are in "public domain". Has anyone integrated djb's public domain resolver code into libc? Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 09:31:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A04716A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep13-int.chello.nl (amsfep13-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B567D43FEC for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Received: from nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl ([212.142.29.165]) by amsfep13-int.chello.nlESMTP <20030901163122.XDKM16676.amsfep13-int.chello.nl@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl>; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:31:22 +0200 Received: from hume.intra.bowtie.nl (hume.intra.bowtie.nl [192.168.4.13]) h81GVLWf067256; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:31:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:31:20 +0200 From: Joao Schim To: sub_0@netcabo.pt Message-Id: <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> Organization: BowTie Technology BV X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:31:26 -0000 On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 Mario Freitas wrote: > FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, it is the best option > for firewall and Internet service features which do not require > extra-packages (or a lot of them) by default. Hey Mario, Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why you seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn't desktop than i dont know what is.. With kindest regards, -- =========================================================================== Joao Schim telefoon:(+31)40-2649860 fax:(+31)40-2649861 http://www.bowtie.nl BowTie Technology BV Raiffeisenstraat 7 - 5611 CH Eindhoven From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 09:57:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AF416A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.it.ca (haggis.it.ca [216.126.86.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5DB043FFD for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: from haggis.it.ca (paul@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Gv8bi007267; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:57:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul@haggis.it.ca) Received: (from paul@localhost) by haggis.it.ca (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h81Gv7hR007266; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:57:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from paul) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:57:07 -0400 From: Paul Chvostek To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030901165707.GA99765@mail.it.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:57:13 -0000 On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 10:09:31PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Unfortunately, > doesn't seem to be around anymore -- it would be a good start, since > it's rather large (151x161). The Wayback Machine is your friend: http://web.archive.org/web/20020328050539/http://inetu.net/images/hosting/bsd_icon.gif >Another option would be > , but again, it > no longer seems to exist. Similarly: http://web.archive.org/web/20020327065000/http://kernelconcepts.de/pics/bsd-pin-mittel.jpg -- Paul Chvostek it.canada http://www.it.ca/ Free PHP web hosting! http://www.it.ca/web/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 10:12:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D99116A4C0 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unbreakable.homeunix.org (a213-22-141-83.netcabo.pt [213.22.141.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A7443FCB for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sub_0@netcabo.pt) From: Mario Freitas To: "Marc G. Fournier" In-Reply-To: <20030901133555.Q76431@ganymede.hub.org> References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> <20030901133555.Q76431@ganymede.hub.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-sEN/ilpLXUAnfw0Pz6MG" Message-Id: <1062436353.66710.20.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:12:33 +0100 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub_0@netcabo.pt List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:12:22 -0000 --=-sEN/ilpLXUAnfw0Pz6MG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 17:37, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Joao Schim wrote: >=20 > > On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 > > Mario Freitas wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, it is the best optio= n > > > for firewall and Internet service features which do not require > > > extra-packages (or a lot of them) by default. > > > > Hey Mario, > > > > Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for > > firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running > > desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why y= ou > > seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. > > I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn= 't > > desktop than i dont know what is.. >=20 > have to agree here ... I run freebsd-kde myself, and got several ppl in a > MSWindows desktop environment migrated to FreeBSD+KDE over the past few > years, who have been most happy with things ... >=20 > It does the project a great dis-service, especially those who spend alot > of time working with the KDE and Gnome folks, to stereotype us as a > 'server only platform' :( I didn't say gnome or kde were unstable or something like that. I use gnome, right now, I've also used kde before but I think *BSD is not best suited for desktop nor linux. And using your own words "its my experience that FreeBSD is" the best solution for firewall and networking solutions. These are just two ideas I have, and this is just my opinion, you don't have think the same way, neither do I, therefore I just told my experience. PS: this is just a "HUGE IMHO" you shouldn't take this personal... Sincerely, --=20 M=E1rio Freitas (sub_0@netcabo.pt) N=FAcleo Portugu=EAs de FreeBSD (NPF) --=-sEN/ilpLXUAnfw0Pz6MG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA/U34BmOO46MB/5oURAkBLAJ0X0uni5qoOMT8NfQvOmsgfDHNB1wCeJ/CE 5jtkGKPz/GMg3Cvxc/yo7po= =Eh3e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-sEN/ilpLXUAnfw0Pz6MG-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 10:37:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7651316A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C53F43F93 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:37:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030901171640.CRUY23897.mta10.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:16:40 -0400 Message-ID: <3F537EF5.9030008@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:16:37 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joao Schim References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:37:47 -0000 Joao Schim wrote: > On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 > Mario Freitas wrote: > > >>FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, Hey! I resent that. I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 5 years now. > I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn't > desktop than i dont know what is.. If that's not good enough: http://freebsd.kde.org -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 10:56:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2839316A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unbreakable.homeunix.org (a213-22-141-83.netcabo.pt [213.22.141.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F091043FAF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:56:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sub_0@netcabo.pt) From: Mario Freitas To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3F537EF5.9030008@potentialtech.com> References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> <3F537EF5.9030008@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-Cg/KZjLMbjZ5g5VrIH5R" Message-Id: <1062439022.66710.36.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.4 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:57:03 +0000 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: sub_0@netcabo.pt List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:56:51 -0000 --=-Cg/KZjLMbjZ5g5VrIH5R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 17:16, Bill Moran wrote: > Joao Schim wrote: > > On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 > > Mario Freitas wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > >>FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, >=20 > Hey! I resent that. I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 5 years > now. >=20 > >=20 > > I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn= 't > > desktop than i dont know what is.. >=20 > If that's not good enough: > http://freebsd.kde.org I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 4 years... And as a __last__ explanation on what I wanted to say is that, IMHO, "the main objective of FreeBSD" is not desktop but networking. OSX and MS. Windows is more desktop oriented(doesn't necessarily mean FreeBSD is worse for desktop than MS. Windows) Finally, Did you understand what I meant? Sincerely, --=20 M=E1rio Freitas (sub_0@netcabo.pt) N=FAcleo Portugu=EAs de FreeBSD (NPF) --=-Cg/KZjLMbjZ5g5VrIH5R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQA/U4humOO46MB/5oURAmHyAJ99WtIdD5UwyrzoltSUjYSDYbqwrQCfenW0 oePPwNwHne/bKPJkS8ZGy8g= =Obne -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-Cg/KZjLMbjZ5g5VrIH5R-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 11:10:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B269C16A4DA for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ii.uib.no (eik.ii.uib.no [129.177.16.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3B3A43FDF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from s1465@ii.uib.no) Received: from rovflue.ii.uib.no ([129.177.19.75]) by mail.ii.uib.no with esmtp (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.12) id 19tt84-0005RD-00; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:10:16 +0200 Received: (from s1465@localhost) by rovflue.ii.uib.no (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h81IAEWY004601; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:10:14 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:10:14 +0200 (CEST) From: To: Mario Freitas In-Reply-To: <1062436353.66710.20.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -130.0 (-----------------------------------------) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19tt84-0005RD-00*MA/hhZOD0c.* cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:10:23 -0000 On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Mario Freitas wrote: > On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 17:37, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Joao Schim wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 > > > Mario Freitas wrote: > > > > > > > FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, it is the best option > > > > for firewall and Internet service features which do not require > > > > extra-packages (or a lot of them) by default. > > > > > > Hey Mario, > > > > > > Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for > > > firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running > > > desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why you > > > seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. > > > I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn't > > > desktop than i dont know what is.. > > > > have to agree here ... I run freebsd-kde myself, and got several ppl in a > > MSWindows desktop environment migrated to FreeBSD+KDE over the past few > > years, who have been most happy with things ... > > > > It does the project a great dis-service, especially those who spend alot > > of time working with the KDE and Gnome folks, to stereotype us as a > > 'server only platform' :( > > I didn't say gnome or kde were unstable or something like that. I use > gnome, right now, I've also used kde before but I think *BSD is not best > suited for desktop nor linux. And using your own words "its my > experience that FreeBSD is" the best solution for firewall and > networking solutions. > These are just two ideas I have, and this is just my opinion, you don't > have think the same way, neither do I, therefore I just told my > experience. I hate that when people decide to put options in boxes. like..you can't have one os which works great as an heavily loaded server AND works great as an deskop. I'm having the time of my life talking with my freebsd-heavily-loaded-and-secured-server FROM my beautiful great working freebsd kde-desktop(laptop) which does all that funky multimedia stuff I need for my funky pleasure..(don't do an follow-up on that last one please, hehe) your full off crap man, hehe - (and I'm saying that in a nice way)..if there is any, hehe peace out h4x0r Sondre From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 13:11:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552AF16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from twix.hotpop.com (twix.hotpop.com [204.57.55.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7067B43FDF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by twix.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E3CA36E9923 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:11:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fortytwo. (ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net [68.109.49.234]) by smtp-1.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AEF681A01FB; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:05:55 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:03:46 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Joao Schim Message-Id: <20030901190346.1bf71b1e.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:11:39 -0000 On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:31:20 +0200 Joao Schim wrote: > On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 > Mario Freitas wrote: > > > FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, it is the best option > > for firewall and Internet service features which do not require > > extra-packages (or a lot of them) by default. > > Hey Mario, > > Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for > firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running > desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why you > seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. > I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn't > desktop than i dont know what is.. > > With kindest regards, Yeah, I will second that. I have been using FreeBSD as both desktop and server work for close to two years now. I am very pleased with it. My only complaint is the limited number of cards with OGL support. I have had real good luck with it as a desktop. I have not found anything missing from it as a desktop OS. I have not had any problems teaching my sister to use it too, when I built a machine for her. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 13:56:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23AC16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 320A343F75 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11896; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:55:55 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:55:21 -0600 To: Joao Schim , sub_0@netcabo.pt From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> References: <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:56:13 -0000 At 10:31 AM 9/1/2003, Joao Schim wrote: >Hey Mario, > >Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for >firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running >desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why you >seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. This attitude, which was heavily pushed 5-7 years ago by the "leaders" of the FreeBSD project, stemmed from several things. The first was an attempt to differentiate FreeBSD from Linux, which was outstripping the BSDs in the press and elsewhere. One way to compete successfully (in a Darwinian sense, especially) is to claim a niche. Your fitness is then determined by how well you fit into the niche, rather than your overall superiority. Since Linux had all the press and all the money behind it, the developers thought they'd do better competing for the server niche. A fine short term strategy, but a bad long term one. The second was a desire by these same developers to limit the scope of the project to make it more manageable and ensure that there was enough manpower to keep it going. FreeBSD, unlike Linux, is a complete OS rather than a kernel. The "userland" -- the programs users run every day -- is maintained along with the OS. Being a desktop OS implies supporting the entire desktop environment. This was more than the people who were orchestrating the project (particularly Jordan Hubbard) wanted to take on at the time, or perhaps felt that they COULD take on at the time. So adamant were they that they literally drove out of the project some folks who disagreed with this strategy and focus. Alas, the results can be seen today. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with FreeBSD as a desktop OS, the project's failure to encourage and participate in the creation of BSD-licensed desktops for UNIX-like OSes has essentially led to a situation where there are none to be had. The only desktops that run -- balkily and with only partial compatibility -- are GPLed. Not only do they bring with them the baggage of the license and the FSF's agenda, but for ideological reasons the developers have no desire to make them compatible with the BSDs. Yes, there are folks out there who are trying to make them run. But just try to install, say, KDE and get printing, power management, the built-in PPP utility (which is designed to mimic Windows' "Dial-up Networking"), or other similar features to work. You're in for a very frustrating experience. I was recently asked to set up a FreeBSD machine as a desktop for a school, and they had nothing but frustration. Every day or so, they found some part of KDE that didn't quite work right with FreeBSD or needed expert knowledge and special configuration to use with FreeBSD. They just put Windows back on that machine. It doesn't seem as if this situation is likely to change, either. The incompatibilities between the BSDs (not just FreeBSD, but all of the BSD) and the Linux desktops seem to grow daily. Both KDE and GNOME are pretty much becoming by, of, and for Linux exclusively. Even FVWM (which, I understand, was once BSD-licensed) is now GPLed. So, the result of the desire of these developers (many of whom are no longer involved with the project) to force BSD into the mold of a "server-only OS" has, alas, been to make it so... at least until someone, somewhere starts up a BSD desktop project. I'd love to run BSD on my desktop, but due to the poor compatibility and portability of the GPLed Linux desktops, I'll have to keep MacOS X or (ugh!) Windows on my desk for the moment. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 14:06:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1978A16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E11343FDD for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h81L5O9H001246; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:05:24 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h81L5NCo001244; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:05:23 -0400 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:05:23 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:06:00 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > I've been trying to do a 128x128 icon of the FreeBSD beastie for > MacOS X. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=docs/38556 A scalable EPS file, done using sketch (http://sketch.sf.net) It can probably be converted to SVG, I think some desktops (KDE, GNOME?) use SVG now to generate arbitrary-sized icons, not sure of Mac OS X. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 14:18:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C26016A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571BB43FBF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldup2.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.251.34] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19tw4L-0004ry-00; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:18:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3F53B77C.45DC8796@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:17:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46dffc8fe95218b12dce69bfa7f9671d5548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:18:59 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > > Bernsteins programs can't be distributed, since we are not allowed to > > distribute modified binary versions. > > Or another alternative is his resolver code. His low-level DNS resolver > routines are in "public domain". > > Has anyone integrated djb's public domain resolver code into libc? I didn't see that the djbdns license declared it to be in the public domain. I looked at trying to use this, but there were a number of problems: 1) As far as I can tell, it's not *all* in the public domain. 2) The interfaces are incompatible with historical ones. 3) In accordance with his standard diatribe on SRV and other new record types, he only supports address records, MX, and TXT records, which is less than useful in the real world. All of these are pretty much show-stoppers, as far as I'm concerned: 1) License is incredibly important to most of us. 2) I don't want to have to rewrite all the software in the world to use the new API; even if I wanted to, and was willing to, doing so would make it incompatabile with any standard UNIX system which does not also have Dan's library loaded on it. 3) I can't live without SRV records. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 15:16:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BFD16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [68.168.78.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8AA043FAF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030901220150.KPDB3721.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:01:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3F53C171.1080700@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 18:00:17 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sub_0@netcabo.pt References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <20030901183120.05a8d0d9.joao@bowtie.nl> <3F537EF5.9030008@potentialtech.com> <1062439022.66710.36.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> In-Reply-To: <1062439022.66710.36.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 22:16:08 -0000 Mario Freitas wrote: > On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 17:16, Bill Moran wrote: > >>Joao Schim wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 >>>Mario Freitas wrote: >>> >>>>FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, >> >>Hey! I resent that. I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 5 years >>now. >> >> >> >>>I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome isn't >>>desktop than i dont know what is.. >> >>If that's not good enough: >>http://freebsd.kde.org > > I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 4 years... > And as a __last__ explanation on what I wanted to say is that, IMHO, > "the main objective of FreeBSD" is not desktop but networking. > OSX and MS. Windows is more desktop oriented(doesn't necessarily mean > FreeBSD is worse for desktop than MS. Windows) > > Finally, Did you understand what I meant? Possibly, but if I understand you, I still disagree with you. There's considerable effort that goes into integrating FreeBSD with KDE and Gnome and many other programs that make a spiffy Desktop. I wouldn't call the server role "the main objective" under any circumstances. Personally, I would consider the main objective to be a stable, secure, fast OS that's flexible enough to drop into any role needed. But that's just my opinion. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 16:23:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED8A16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E853944001 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h81NMqVT081129 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:23:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030901165707.GA99765@mail.it.ca> References: <20030901165707.GA99765@mail.it.ca> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:38:05 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:23:22 -0000 At 12:57 PM -0400 2003/09/01, Paul Chvostek wrote: > The Wayback Machine is your friend: > > >http://web.archive.org/web/20020328050539/http://inetu.net/images/hosting/bsd_icon.gif Damn. I know Brewster. I should have thought of this myself. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 16:23:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A81E16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D716F43FFB for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h81NMqVV081129 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:23:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:22:15 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:23:24 -0000 At 11:37 AM +0100 2003/09/01, Luis Neves wrote: >> Is there anything else I've missed? > > There are some cool Beastie images (although not your traditional Beastie) > in this Korean FreeBSD site: > http://www.kr.freebsd.org/gallery/ > > (at the bottom, click the thumbnail) Which thumbnail? There are three.... > I've used those images in the past to make a 5.0 RELEASE CD-Cover: > http://pwp.netcabo.pt/lneves/freebsd_cd_cover/FreeBSD50_CD_Cover.pdf Ahh, that one. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 16:23:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C09816A4C2 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A9743FEC for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h81NMqVX081129 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:23:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030901030044.E08B83A25F@www.fastmail.fm> References: ARRAY(0xa022d84) <20030901030044.E08B83A25F@www.fastmail.fm> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:22:44 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:23:28 -0000 At 11:00 PM -0400 2003/08/31, Bobb Shires wrote: > Don't remember where I found this but it might help you. > http://www.smv.org/images/beastie.gif Excellent. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 16:40:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D37516A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5585243FE9 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19tyHH-000406-00; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:40:07 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:40:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3F53B77C.45DC8796@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:40:10 -0000 On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Or another alternative is his resolver code. His low-level DNS resolver > > routines are in "public domain". > > > > Has anyone integrated djb's public domain resolver code into libc? > > I didn't see that the djbdns license declared it to be in the > public domain. I am not sure where either. But DJB noted to bugtraq <20020704164247.30990.qmail@cr.yp.to> a while back that: The .[ch] files (dns.h, dns_dfd.c, dns_domain.c, dns_dtda.c, dns_ip.c, dns_ipq.c, dns_mx.c, dns_name.c, dns_nd.c, dns_packet.c, dns_random.c, dns_rcip.c, dns_rcrw.c, dns_resolve.c, dns_sortip.c, dns_transmit.c, dns_txt.c) and all necessary lower-level .[ch] files are now in the public domain. This is also mentioned at http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/res-disaster.html Looking at this source (djbdns-1.05), I don't see any copyrights or licenses in any of these individual files. > 3) In accordance with his standard diatribe on SRV and other > new record types, he only supports address records, MX, > and TXT records, which is less than useful in the real > world. I have no answer; I do not (knowlingly) use SRV records. > 2) I don't want to have to rewrite all the software in the > world to use the new API; even if I wanted to, and was > willing to, doing so would make it incompatabile with > any standard UNIX system which does not also have Dan's > library loaded on it. I haven't looked at it closely. I just read that it is "designed to replace the old BIND res_*/dn_* library" at http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/blurb/library.html. I don't know how easy it would be (or if it would be worth it) to create wrappers. Anyways, I am curious if anyone uses it (or has tried it) as an alternative. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 17:21:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB1716A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep15-int.chello.nl (amsfep15-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F2243FBF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Received: from pandora.intra.schim.net ([213.93.164.153]) by amsfep15-int.chello.nlESMTP <20030902002123.NOXS6169.amsfep15-int.chello.nl@pandora.intra.schim.net>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 02:21:23 +0200 Received: from phooka.intra.schim.net (phooka.intra.schim.net [192.168.0.4]) h820LGbR000503; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 02:21:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 02:19:48 +0200 From: Joao Schim To: Brett Glass , sub_0@netcabo.pt Message-Id: <20030902021948.2588aded.joao@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> References: <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> Organization: BowTie Technology BV X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 00:21:27 -0000 On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:55:21 -0600 Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:31 AM 9/1/2003, Joao Schim wrote: > > >Hey Mario, > > > >Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for > >firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running > >desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why you > >seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. > > This attitude, which was heavily pushed 5-7 years ago by the "leaders" > of the FreeBSD project, stemmed from several things. The first was an > attempt to differentiate FreeBSD from Linux, which was outstripping the BSDs > in the press and elsewhere. One way to compete successfully (in a Darwinian > sense, especially) is to claim a niche. Your fitness is then determined by > how well you fit into the niche, rather than your overall superiority. Since > Linux had all the press and all the money behind it, the developers thought > they'd do better competing for the server niche. A fine short term strategy, > but a bad long term one. > > The second was a desire by these same developers to limit the scope of the > project to make it more manageable and ensure that there was enough manpower > to keep it going. FreeBSD, unlike Linux, is a complete OS rather than a kernel. > The "userland" -- the programs users run every day -- is maintained along with > the OS. Being a desktop OS implies supporting the entire desktop environment. > This was more than the people who were orchestrating the project (particularly > Jordan Hubbard) wanted to take on at the time, or perhaps felt that they COULD > take on at the time. So adamant were they that they literally drove out of > the project some folks who disagreed with this strategy and focus. > > Alas, the results can be seen today. While there's absolutely nothing wrong > with FreeBSD as a desktop OS, the project's failure to encourage and participate > in the creation of BSD-licensed desktops for UNIX-like OSes has essentially led > to a situation where there are none to be had. The only desktops that run -- > balkily and with only partial compatibility -- are GPLed. Not only do they bring > with them the baggage of the license and the FSF's agenda, but for ideological > reasons the developers have no desire to make them compatible with the BSDs. Yes, > there are folks out there who are trying to make them run. But just try to > install, say, KDE and get printing, power management, the built-in PPP utility > (which is designed to mimic Windows' "Dial-up Networking"), or other similar > features to work. You're in for a very frustrating experience. > > I was recently asked to set up a FreeBSD machine as a desktop for a school, and > they had nothing but frustration. Every day or so, they found some part of KDE > that didn't quite work right with FreeBSD or needed expert knowledge and special > configuration to use with FreeBSD. They just put Windows back on that machine. > > It doesn't seem as if this situation is likely to change, either. The > incompatibilities between the BSDs (not just FreeBSD, but all of the BSD) > and the Linux desktops seem to grow daily. Both KDE and GNOME are pretty much > becoming by, of, and for Linux exclusively. Even FVWM (which, I understand, > was once BSD-licensed) is now GPLed. > > So, the result of the desire of these developers (many of whom are no longer > involved with the project) to force BSD into the mold of a "server-only OS" > has, alas, been to make it so... at least until someone, somewhere starts > up a BSD desktop project. I'd love to run BSD on my desktop, but due to the > poor compatibility and portability of the GPLed Linux desktops, I'll have > to keep MacOS X or (ugh!) Windows on my desk for the moment. > > --Brett Glass > Brett, Thanks for that enlighting story. The fact that FreeBSD is not fully supported with KDE or GNOME does not mean that the OS isn't up for the job. I think your attempt at setting up a dekstop box for that school would have led to as much frustration when you would have tried it with GNU/Linux. For as far as i can tell its just extra _features_ that are lacking support, the general use of it is not bound to failure. a difference should be made between the term 'Desktop OS' as being a MS windows like system on wich every Joe can get around with by clicking around using wizards and such, and the desktop as a graphical environment in wich people familiar with the OS can get their job done. The last thing FreeBSD needs is that zealot thinking that lots of Linux folks have involving world domination and such, thinking that every single soul that is used to using windows can easily make a switch. Thats not what i am talking about. Also i think that the gap you are talking about between Linux and FreeBSD can only grow further if the BSD teams persists in being a Network OS only. Cause why should they spend time on a OS that says not to be a Desktop os. Then you just create that vicious circle. But i dont think you would mind if you're so upset with the GPL ;) Kindest regards, Joao From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 17:49:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF16916A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AA043F75 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:49:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <200309020049340140011vkke>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:49:34 +0000 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:49:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Joao Schim In-Reply-To: <20030902021948.2588aded.joao@bowtie.nl> Message-ID: <20030901174339.Y6074@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <20030902021948.2588aded.joao@bowtie.nl> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 00:49:36 -0000 On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Joao Schim wrote: > Brett, > Thanks for that enlighting story. Please keep in mind that this story, like all of Brett's stories, is highly skewed towards his particular agendas. It also contains just enough truth to sound plausible, but the rest of the story is twisted to suit. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 18:01:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A520716A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC51343FE1 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:01:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8211LVP087174; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:01:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> References: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:00:26 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Brad Knowles cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 01:01:24 -0000 At 5:05 PM -0400 2003/09/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=docs/38556 > A scalable EPS file, done using sketch (http://sketch.sf.net) This is indeed better than the image in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. > It can probably be converted to SVG, I think some desktops (KDE, > GNOME?) use SVG now to generate arbitrary-sized icons, not sure of > Mac OS X. I am not personally acquainted with an application for MacOS X that does SVG, but EPS works fine with Photoshop. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 18:23:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DB016A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A2F43FEC for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13791; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:23:02 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901190947.03327e80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:22:54 -0600 To: Joao Schim , sub_0@netcabo.pt From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030902021948.2588aded.joao@bowtie.nl> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 01:23:15 -0000 At 06:19 PM 9/1/2003, Joao Schim wrote: >The fact that FreeBSD is not fully supported with KDE or GNOME does not >mean that the OS isn't up for the job. I hope that you didn't take my message as saying it wasn't. The problem is that attempting to run desktop environments which are designed exclusively for Linux, with little or no thought to portability, is trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. And there's no hope of rounding off the peg, because there's too much zealotry among the designers of the desktops; they're virtually all GPL and Linux fanatics. Better to use a peg that's designed to fit from the start. >I think your attempt at setting >up a dekstop box for that school would have led to as much frustration when >you would have tried it with GNU/Linux. Actually, no. It's true that they might have had some problems with Linux. (It's Linux, by the way, not GNOOOOOOO/Linux. Unless, of course, you're willing to be fair and call it BSD+GNU+Apache+Perl+lotsofotherthings/Linux.) Because both Linux desktops are designed especially for Linux, and because the Linux distro vendors do so much pre-integration and pre-configuration, they would have had an easier time. But Windows was the correct answer in this case. >a difference should be made between the term 'Desktop OS' as being a >MS windows like system on wich every Joe can get around with by clicking >around using wizards and such, and the desktop as a graphical environment >in wich people familiar with the OS can get their job done. If you install FreeBSD and KDE, you'll find that a tremendous number of BASIC things -- not just the fancy GUI stuff -- work with difficulty or not at all. >Also i think that the gap you are talking about between Linux and FreeBSD >can only grow further if the BSD teams persists in being a Network OS only. I was one of the ones who opposed the notion of the BSDs as server (or network) OSes only. Mr. Hubbard & Co. did their best to marginalize anyone who disagreed with them on this. In any event, the BSDs need a BSD-licensed desktop, designed with a BSD philosophy, built with with BSD-quality code. If they try to run desktops that are designed exclusively for Linux, they'll never work as well and certainly will never stand out on the desktop. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 18:29:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDB516A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A5043FCB for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:29:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (nat-66-223-56.interland.net [66.223.56.127] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h821UiB4069166; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:30:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:28:59 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Bill Moran From: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <3F53C171.1080700@potentialtech.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 01:29:06 -0000 On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 06:00 PM, Bill Moran wrote: > Mario Freitas wrote: >> On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 17:16, Bill Moran wrote: >>> Joao Schim wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:42:59 +0100 >>>> Mario Freitas wrote: >>>> >>>>> FreeBSD is not intended to be used as a desktop, >>> >>> Hey! I resent that. I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 5 years >>> now. >>> >>> >>> >>>> I thought there was even a freebsd-gnome list around, and if gnome >>>> isn't >>>> desktop than i dont know what is.. >>> >>> If that's not good enough: >>> http://freebsd.kde.org >> I've used FreeBSD as my desktop for 4 years... >> And as a __last__ explanation on what I wanted to say is that, IMHO, >> "the main objective of FreeBSD" is not desktop but networking. >> OSX and MS. Windows is more desktop oriented(doesn't necessarily mean >> FreeBSD is worse for desktop than MS. Windows) >> Finally, Did you understand what I meant? > > Possibly, but if I understand you, I still disagree with you. > > There's considerable effort that goes into integrating FreeBSD with KDE > and Gnome and many other programs that make a spiffy Desktop. > > I wouldn't call the server role "the main objective" under any > circumstances. Personally, I would consider the main objective > to be a stable, secure, fast OS that's flexible enough to drop into > any role needed. But that's just my opinion. > Ya'll do realize that this is a pointless conversation that has taken place many times before, right? I understand if it's all for fun and just for the sake of arguing, but no one is ever going to agree or concede to anyone else's point. This is about as fruitless as the 'which OS is best?' question. FreeBSD can be a fabulous desktop _if you know how to use it as such_. FreeBSD can be a fabulous server as well, _if you know how to use it as such_. My toaster could be a fabulous server if I could just figure out how to make ipf filter out forks and spoons and only allow in bagels. C'mon now, people. ;) Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 18:58:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A36A16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [68.168.78.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C0143FDD for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030902014328.KLHE11935.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:43:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3F53F5BE.2010008@potentialtech.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:43:26 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randi Harper References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 01:58:45 -0000 Randi Harper wrote: > > Ya'll do realize that this is a pointless conversation that has taken > place many times before, right? You do realize this is chat@, right? > I understand if it's all for fun and just for the sake of arguing, but > no one is ever going to agree or concede to anyone else's point. This is > about as fruitless as the 'which OS is best?' question. Personally, I think Multics is best, and I defy anyone to argue that point. > FreeBSD can be a fabulous desktop _if you know how to use it as such_. > FreeBSD can be a fabulous server as well, _if you know how to use it as > such_. My toaster could be a fabulous server if I could just figure out > how to make ipf filter out forks and spoons and only allow in bagels. See ... I like an occasional English Muffin, myself, and that complicates the ipf rules a bit. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 19:07:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199FB16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DF043FDF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (nat-66-223-56.interland.net [66.223.56.127] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8228nB4069283; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:08:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:07:03 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Brett Glass From: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901193303.02a3ddc0@localhost> Message-Id: <257847B8-DCEA-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:07:11 -0000 On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 09:47 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:28 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: > >> I understand if it's all for fun and just for the sake of arguing, >> but no one is ever going to agree or concede to anyone else's point. >> This is about as fruitless as the 'which OS is best?' question. > > Yes, the issue of what to do about the desktop isn't new. > > I remember arguing with Jordan Hubbard the very first time I met him > in person, > which was when I spotted him at a booth run by Walnut Creek CD-ROM at > the first > San Jose LinuxWorld show. The booth had a big sign that said, > "FreeBSD: The > Power to Serve." > > But the issue has now taken on new significance. > > Users are coming to expect that they'll be able to run different > configurations > of the same OS on the server and on the desktop (as they're now doing > with both > Windows and Linux). And it makes good sense for them to want this; it > saves them > a lot on training, and they don't need to maintain two pools of OS > experts. > > The BSDs, alas, are falling behind Linux and Windows because they > don't have > a desktop. GNOME and KDE are developed specifically for Linux, and BSD > has no > equivalent. As mentioned in an earlier message, you can FORCE these > environments > onto a BSD machine, but major portions won't work. And you'd better > have a lot of > technical skill to surmount the obstacles you'll face trying to use > them. > > If BSD doesn't get a desktop of its own (and by this I do NOT mean > Apple's), > it'll have no hope of ever catching up to Linux in the marketplace, > even though > it has the advantages of an ethical license and superior technology. > The only > practical way will be to use it as I do: BSD on the server, MacOS or > Windows > on the desktop. > > --Brett Glass > > > Umm... My mom runs FreeBSD. ;) A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were popular. What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was somewhat popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, those are aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let them have it. gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas station bathroom that is X11, in my opinion. GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can be a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on IRC', wouldn't it make sense to code one? I realize that's easier said than done, but it really isn't that difficult to code with GTK/GLib at all, and in doing so we'd stick with a look and feel that everyone is familiar with and is well supported and integrated into a variety of applications. If there's one thing I've noticed by (mostly) idling on this mailing list, it's that people love to say "we need this", and "it should be this way", or "someone should code this", but no one ever wants to put forth the time to help. It's complete BS. Well, here it is, for what it's worth. I'm willing to put time into this if someone is willing to help. I'd do it on my own, but I've only been doing GTK coding for a few months. My C is mediocre at best, and my understanding of the way X11 handles things is nil. From what I've read, the X11 standard is complete trash, and I'm not delving into that alone. And if no one wants to step forward to help, none of you have anywhere to stand in this discussion. So there. :) Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 19:13:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BBD16A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4690B43FEA for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj8a.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.205.10] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19u0fP-0007lt-00; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3F53FC71.E97C9FEC@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:12:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c5d3a93d240021e01b408fbb038440a83ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:13:18 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Or another alternative is his resolver code. His low-level DNS resolver > > > routines are in "public domain". > > > > > > Has anyone integrated djb's public domain resolver code into libc? > > > > I didn't see that the djbdns license declared it to be in the > > public domain. > > I am not sure where either. But DJB noted to bugtraq > <20020704164247.30990.qmail@cr.yp.to> a while back that: > > The .[ch] files (dns.h, dns_dfd.c, dns_domain.c, dns_dtda.c, dns_ip.c, > dns_ipq.c, dns_mx.c, dns_name.c, dns_nd.c, dns_packet.c, dns_random.c, > dns_rcip.c, dns_rcrw.c, dns_resolve.c, dns_sortip.c, dns_transmit.c, > dns_txt.c) and all necessary lower-level .[ch] files are now in the > public domain. > > This is also mentioned at http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/res-disaster.html Yes, I saw this note at that location. However, I did not see a claim and then a disclaim in the source files themselves. > Looking at this source (djbdns-1.05), I don't see any copyrights or > licenses in any of these individual files. Exactly. Berne states that any files not explicitly disclaimed by the author are inherently copyright the author, and without an explicit disclaim by the author of record stating that it's in the public domain, or a license, the code is not legal to use, since nothing gives me any rights to it. > > 3) In accordance with his standard diatribe on SRV and other > > new record types, he only supports address records, MX, > > and TXT records, which is less than useful in the real > > world. > > I have no answer; I do not (knowlingly) use SRV records. Too bad. They are required for zeroconf, and "Rendevous". > I haven't looked at it closely. I just read that it is "designed to > replace the old BIND res_*/dn_* library" at > http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/blurb/library.html. Yes, in about the same way that Windows NT was designed to replace UNIX. 8-). Not plug compatible... > I don't know how easy it would be (or if it would be worth it) to create > wrappers. Doing so would actually defeat his purpose in creating his new API, at least according to the page you referenced on his site. > Anyways, I am curious if anyone uses it (or has tried it) as an > alternative. I looked at it. The API is "OK", though it's not inherently thread safe, unless you implement thread local storage, or open a socket per outstanding request, either of which are not nice. It's inherently reentrant, so in theory it could be made thread safe relatively easily, if you wanted to put in the effort. With no license attached to the code, though, it was uninteresting to me to adopt a new API, when I could write my own and not be under the license cloud, at the same time maintaining binary compatability. 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 19:45:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70F316A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAF843FE9 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14444; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:45:14 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:45:04 -0600 To: Randi Harper From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <257847B8-DCEA-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901193303.02a3ddc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:45:23 -0000 At 08:07 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: >My mom runs FreeBSD. ;) Good for her! So does my wife, who is an artist and not technical. But she runs text consoles THROUGH a Windows machine. >A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were popular. What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was somewhat popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, those are aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let them have it. gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas station bathroom that is X11, in my opinion. Yes, X11 is awkward and messy to build on. I do think that Apple's approach, which scuttles X11 as a foundation for a UNIX GUI, is the right way to go. (I have heard, however, that they will have a built-in X server in the next version of OS X, so they will be able to interoperate with UNIX code that relies on X11.) >GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can be a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on IRC', wouldn't it make sense to code one? It'd be better to start with something that's not GPLed, so that one was not planting yet another GPL poison pill within BSD. I and my employees will not even look at GPLed source, due to the legal problems this can cause a programmer who sometimes codes for money. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 19:49:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4832216A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4416143FE0 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (nat-66-223-56.interland.net [66.223.56.127] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h822pTB4069416; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:51:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:49:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Brett Glass From: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> Message-Id: <1B1966EA-DCF0-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:49:51 -0000 On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 10:45 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:07 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: > >> My mom runs FreeBSD. ;) > > Good for her! So does my wife, who is an artist and not technical. > > But she runs text consoles THROUGH a Windows machine. Ah. My mother actually runs a FreeBSD desktop. Personally, I have a FreeBSD 4.8 laptop, 2 servers running 5.1, and a windows box running exceed (no explorer.exe) that stream x apps over the network from my fbsd server. Windows gives me hives. > >> A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something >> like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or >> not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were >> popular. What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was >> somewhat popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, >> those are aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let >> them have it. gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas >> station bathroom that is X11, in my opinion. > > Yes, X11 is awkward and messy to build on. I do think that Apple's > approach, > which scuttles X11 as a foundation for a UNIX GUI, is the right way to > go. > (I have heard, however, that they will have a built-in X server in the > next > version of OS X, so they will be able to interoperate with UNIX code > that > relies on X11.) Absolutely. I got my first look at OS X a few days ago when I got my new laptop, a PowerBook G4. I am loving it so far. I won't say it doesn't have it's problems, but it's gold when you compare it to the alternative. Clean, fast, and shiny. > >> GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of >> people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need >> things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can >> be a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on >> IRC', wouldn't it make sense to code one? > > It'd be better to start with something that's not GPLed, so that one > was > not planting yet another GPL poison pill within BSD. I and my > employees will > not even look at GPLed source, due to the legal problems this can > cause a > programmer who sometimes codes for money. Ack, thinks for pointing that out. I hadn't even considered that. Damn. Well, can you think of a better toolkit to use for this purpose? Are there any decent ones that aren't GPL'ed? Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 19:53:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D6716A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13AB43FDD for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14506; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:53:44 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:53:34 -0600 To: Randi Harper From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <1B1966EA-DCF0-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:53:52 -0000 At 08:49 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: >Ack, thinks for pointing that out. I hadn't even considered that. Damn. Well, can you think of a better toolkit to use for this purpose? Are there any decent ones that aren't GPL'ed? I don't know. There's probably something out there that would fill the bill. By the way, QT wasn't originally GPLed, but the Linuxoids beat on the vendor until it capitulated and released a GPLed version. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 20:16:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC33416A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BA143FDD for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pde@ucan.foad.org) Received: from ucan.foad.org (pde@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ucan.foad.org (8.12.9/HIGHWIRE2.0) with ESMTP id h823GJOK027106 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h823GJtF002776 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:19 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030902031619.GA30888@ehlke.net> References: <3F53F5BE.2010008@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F53F5BE.2010008@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 03:16:21 -0000 On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 09:43:26PM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > Personally, I think Multics is best, and I defy anyone to argue that point. > Heresy. NOS/VE was the best, is the best, and always will be the best. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 21:49:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A68216A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snickers.hotpop.com (snickers.hotpop.com [204.57.55.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF0E44003 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:48:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by snickers.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F2F670E54 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:48:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fortytwo. (ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net [68.109.49.234]) by smtp-1.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 895061A0213; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:48:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:46:39 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Brett Glass Message-Id: <20030902044639.5910102c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> References: <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 04:49:00 -0000 On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:55:21 -0600 Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:31 AM 9/1/2003, Joao Schim wrote: > > >Hey Mario, > > > >Well its my experience that FreeBSD is not only the best option for > >firewall and Internet services but it is also very capable of running > >desktop apps with the greatest stability. So that makes me wonder why you > >seem to have that idea that FreeBSD isn't ment for Desktop. > > This attitude, which was heavily pushed 5-7 years ago by the "leaders" > of the FreeBSD project, stemmed from several things. The first was an > attempt to differentiate FreeBSD from Linux, which was outstripping the BSDs > in the press and elsewhere. One way to compete successfully (in a Darwinian > sense, especially) is to claim a niche. Your fitness is then determined by > how well you fit into the niche, rather than your overall superiority. Since > Linux had all the press and all the money behind it, the developers thought > they'd do better competing for the server niche. A fine short term strategy, > but a bad long term one. > > The second was a desire by these same developers to limit the scope of the > project to make it more manageable and ensure that there was enough manpower > to keep it going. FreeBSD, unlike Linux, is a complete OS rather than a > kernel. The "userland" -- the programs users run every day -- is maintained > along with the OS. Being a desktop OS implies supporting the entire desktop > environment. This was more than the people who were orchestrating the project > (particularly Jordan Hubbard) wanted to take on at the time, or perhaps felt > that they COULD take on at the time. So adamant were they that they literally > drove out of the project some folks who disagreed with this strategy and > focus. > > Alas, the results can be seen today. While there's absolutely nothing wrong > with FreeBSD as a desktop OS, the project's failure to encourage and > participate in the creation of BSD-licensed desktops for UNIX-like OSes has > essentially led to a situation where there are none to be had. The only > desktops that run -- balkily and with only partial compatibility -- are GPLed. > Not only do they bring with them the baggage of the license and the FSF's > agenda, but for ideological reasons the developers have no desire to make them > compatible with the BSDs. Yes, there are folks out there who are trying to > make them run. But just try to install, say, KDE and get printing, power > management, the built-in PPP utility (which is designed to mimic Windows' > "Dial-up Networking"), or other similar features to work. You're in for a very > frustrating experience. Yeah, a simple interface is needed to make a decent desktop. I have slowly been starting to look at throwing something together using fluxbox as the wm and then writing something a little like dfm and begining a bit of work on creating various X front ends for configing stuff. Currently my only real problem is hosting for the site/ftp. Going to check into sourceforge on that later. > I was recently asked to set up a FreeBSD machine as a desktop for a school, > and they had nothing but frustration. Every day or so, they found some part of > KDE that didn't quite work right with FreeBSD or needed expert knowledge and > special configuration to use with FreeBSD. They just put Windows back on that > machine. > > It doesn't seem as if this situation is likely to change, either. The > incompatibilities between the BSDs (not just FreeBSD, but all of the BSD) > and the Linux desktops seem to grow daily. Both KDE and GNOME are pretty much > becoming by, of, and for Linux exclusively. Even FVWM (which, I understand, > was once BSD-licensed) is now GPLed. > > So, the result of the desire of these developers (many of whom are no longer > involved with the project) to force BSD into the mold of a "server-only OS" > has, alas, been to make it so... at least until someone, somewhere starts > up a BSD desktop project. I'd love to run BSD on my desktop, but due to the > poor compatibility and portability of the GPLed Linux desktops, I'll have > to keep MacOS X or (ugh!) Windows on my desk for the moment. Speaking as a person that runs FreeBSD on a desktop, it runs insanely well. KDE issues run deeper than it being mainly meant for use on Linux. It is a insanely horridly put together wm/desktop enviroment/what ever the else it bloody well refers to it's self as. I have no love for it or QT. As far as Gnome is concerned, I have not messed with it enought to develop any opinions one way or another. My only complaint is the very limited number of TV cards for BSD with the only ones supported being Brooktree cards. Those are cool. I have one myself, but they are limited in that they don't do hdtv. Also a better TV program than FXTV is needed. I would love to put on together, but as of currently, the ability to do that is beyond me. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 22:11:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD4716A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D5043FE0 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-135-74.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.135.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054A4154F6; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:11:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id CAB9320F2A; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:11:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:11:12 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Randi Harper Message-ID: <20030902051112.GO38141@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <1B1966EA-DCF0-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1B1966EA-DCF0-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 05:11:17 -0000 On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 10:49:43PM -0400 I heard the voice of Randi Harper, and lo! it spake thus: > > Ack, thinks for pointing that out. I hadn't even considered that. Damn. > Well, can you think of a better toolkit to use for this purpose? Are > there any decent ones that aren't GPL'ed? GTK is LGPL'd. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 22:15:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C949216A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from babyruth.hotpop.com (babyruth.hotpop.com [204.57.55.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A6743FB1 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by babyruth.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EAA9C21C148 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 05:15:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fortytwo. (ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net [68.109.49.234]) by smtp-2.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AF1031800A9; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 05:15:48 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 05:13:34 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Randi Harper Message-Id: <20030902051334.6de9da27.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <257847B8-DCEA-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901193303.02a3ddc0@localhost> <257847B8-DCEA-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 05:15:53 -0000 On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:07:03 -0400 Randi Harper wrote: > My mom runs FreeBSD. ;) Cool, I set my sister up with a FreeBSD box and Windowmaker awhile back. It has worked out well for her. > A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something > like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or > not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were popular. > What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was somewhat > popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, those are > aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let them have it. > gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas station bathroom > that is X11, in my opinion. > > GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of > people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need > things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can be > a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on IRC', > wouldn't it make sense to code one? I realize that's easier said than > done, but it really isn't that difficult to code with GTK/GLib at all, > and in doing so we'd stick with a look and feel that everyone is > familiar with and is well supported and integrated into a variety of > applications. GTK is nice. I am begining to look at it a bit, myself. > If there's one thing I've noticed by (mostly) idling on this mailing > list, it's that people love to say "we need this", and "it should be > this way", or "someone should code this", but no one ever wants to put > forth the time to help. It's complete BS. Well, here it is, for what > it's worth. I'm willing to put time into this if someone is willing to > help. I'd do it on my own, but I've only been doing GTK coding for a > few months. My C is mediocre at best, and my understanding of the way > X11 handles things is nil. From what I've read, the X11 standard is > complete trash, and I'm not delving into that alone. And if no one > wants to step forward to help, none of you have anywhere to stand in > this discussion. X11 rulz. I personally like how it handles things and the methodology behind it. The lack of a specific way of creating a GUI is really nice. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 22:33:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1255116A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C77D43FE1 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:33:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (nat-66-223-56.interland.net [66.223.56.127] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h825YsB4069895; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:34:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:33:08 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Vulpes Velox From: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <20030902051334.6de9da27.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 05:33:17 -0000 On Tuesday, September 2, 2003, at 06:13 AM, Vulpes Velox wrote: > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:07:03 -0400 > Randi Harper wrote: >> My mom runs FreeBSD. ;) > > Cool, I set my sister up with a FreeBSD box and Windowmaker awhile > back. It has > worked out well for her. You know, I think if more people would actually look at FreeBSD without thinking "eek, BSD, hard!", they'd realize it's actually a lot easier to run in the long run than linux is. I've been running FreeBSD for at least 3 years, and about a year ago I had to put linux on a laptop to run showeq because there was no port. I chose slackware, because I figured it had the least amount of crap. I had to upgrade a library in slackware, which involved upgrading pretty much the entire system. I didn't want to spend the time on that considering it was just to run one application, so I installed RedHat. showeq required QT 2.x. RedHat's QT 2.x RPM has QT 3.x as a dependancy. This is on a really tiny HD on a PII 300 laptop. :) After that, I realized how good I had it. Once you get used to the ease of use of the ports tree, there really is no going back. I'm not an anti-linux fanatic at all, but I remember the aggravation of that one experience, and I appreciate what I've got even more. > >> A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something >> like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or >> not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were popular. >> What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was somewhat >> popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, those are >> aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let them have it. >> gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas station bathroom >> that is X11, in my opinion. >> >> GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of >> people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need >> things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can >> be >> a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on IRC', >> wouldn't it make sense to code one? I realize that's easier said than >> done, but it really isn't that difficult to code with GTK/GLib at all, >> and in doing so we'd stick with a look and feel that everyone is >> familiar with and is well supported and integrated into a variety of >> applications. > > GTK is nice. I am begining to look at it a bit, myself. Just wait until you try to code in it. Gooberssh (check the webpage in my .sig) is my first C project that I've even considered showing anyone. It's the first time I've coded in C in years (I'm more of a php/perl monkey), and of course I decide to make a GTK program. Gtk and glib are excellent for coding in, if you don't mind stuff that looks like gtk_window_really_long_function_name(arg, arg, arg, arg, arg). The API reference online isn't bad at all. Also, O'Reilly was supposed to be releasing a new book about Gtk 2.0, but it appears to have been canceled or put off. Bummer. I'm using one of the New Riders books, but it only covers Gtk 1.2. I don't recommend using any of those GUI things like glade though. It just seems to complicate things. > >> If there's one thing I've noticed by (mostly) idling on this mailing >> list, it's that people love to say "we need this", and "it should be >> this way", or "someone should code this", but no one ever wants to put >> forth the time to help. It's complete BS. Well, here it is, for what >> it's worth. I'm willing to put time into this if someone is willing to >> help. I'd do it on my own, but I've only been doing GTK coding for a >> few months. My C is mediocre at best, and my understanding of the way >> X11 handles things is nil. From what I've read, the X11 standard is >> complete trash, and I'm not delving into that alone. And if no one >> wants to step forward to help, none of you have anywhere to stand in >> this discussion. > > X11 rulz. I personally like how it handles things and the methodology > behind it. > The lack of a specific way of creating a GUI is really nice. > Ugh. Have you SEEN the X11 spec? If you have to write a window manager, I've heard it's a bloody nightmare. Read the Unix Haters Handbook. The PDF is online somewhere. They have a nice section explaining some of it. For me, it's a matter of: I hate it, I know it's ass, but I have as of yet to see a decent alternative that supports my video card, so I don't complain too loudly when I use it. Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 1 23:39:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A7616A4BF for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snickers.hotpop.com (snickers.hotpop.com [204.57.55.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8932143FE0 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:39:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by snickers.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 836A8777DB for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:38:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fortytwo. (ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net [68.109.49.234]) by smtp-2.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 40D9A1800B5; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:38:52 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:36:38 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Randi Harper Message-Id: <20030902063638.59777405.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20030902051334.6de9da27.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:39:03 -0000 On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:33:08 -0400 Randi Harper wrote: > > Cool, I set my sister up with a FreeBSD box and Windowmaker awhile > > back. It has > > worked out well for her. > > You know, I think if more people would actually look at FreeBSD without > thinking "eek, BSD, hard!", they'd realize it's actually a lot easier > to run in the long run than linux is. I've been running FreeBSD for at > least 3 years, and about a year ago I had to put linux on a laptop to > run showeq because there was no port. I chose slackware, because I > figured it had the least amount of crap. I had to upgrade a library in > slackware, which involved upgrading pretty much the entire system. I > didn't want to spend the time on that considering it was just to run > one application, so I installed RedHat. showeq required QT 2.x. > RedHat's QT 2.x RPM has QT 3.x as a dependancy. This is on a really > tiny HD on a PII 300 laptop. :) After that, I realized how good I had > it. Once you get used to the ease of use of the ports tree, there > really is no going back. I'm not an anti-linux fanatic at all, but I > remember the aggravation of that one experience, and I appreciate what > I've got even more. Yeah, getting ppl past the 'eek, BSD hard' part is a real hurdle. Since my sister is willing to read documentation, it was not a problem in the least. I just showed her some basic commands and she was set. As long as the user is willing to read documentation stuff is cool. I think windows has really proven the problem of what happens when users don't read documentation and for a nice part don't feel the need to learn the basics. Computers are a tool regardless how they are looked at and, like any other tool, they have have a basic set of info required to use them properly and efficiently. This is something that really needs address in the public school system. > > > >> A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something > >> like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or > >> not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were popular. > >> What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was somewhat > >> popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, those are > >> aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let them have it. > >> gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas station bathroom > >> that is X11, in my opinion. > >> > >> GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of > >> people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need > >> things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can > >> be > >> a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on IRC', > >> wouldn't it make sense to code one? I realize that's easier said than > >> done, but it really isn't that difficult to code with GTK/GLib at all, > >> and in doing so we'd stick with a look and feel that everyone is > >> familiar with and is well supported and integrated into a variety of > >> applications. > > > > GTK is nice. I am begining to look at it a bit, myself. > > Just wait until you try to code in it. Gooberssh (check the webpage in > my .sig) is my first C project that I've even considered showing > anyone. It's the first time I've coded in C in years (I'm more of a > php/perl monkey), and of course I decide to make a GTK program. Gtk and > glib are excellent for coding in, if you don't mind stuff that looks > like gtk_window_really_long_function_name(arg, arg, arg, arg, arg). The > API reference online isn't bad at all. Also, O'Reilly was supposed to > be releasing a new book about Gtk 2.0, but it appears to have been > canceled or put off. Bummer. I'm using one of the New Riders books, but > it only covers Gtk 1.2. I don't recommend using any of those GUI things > like glade though. It just seems to complicate things. > > > > >> If there's one thing I've noticed by (mostly) idling on this mailing > >> list, it's that people love to say "we need this", and "it should be > >> this way", or "someone should code this", but no one ever wants to put > >> forth the time to help. It's complete BS. Well, here it is, for what > >> it's worth. I'm willing to put time into this if someone is willing to > >> help. I'd do it on my own, but I've only been doing GTK coding for a > >> few months. My C is mediocre at best, and my understanding of the way > >> X11 handles things is nil. From what I've read, the X11 standard is > >> complete trash, and I'm not delving into that alone. And if no one > >> wants to step forward to help, none of you have anywhere to stand in > >> this discussion. > > > > X11 rulz. I personally like how it handles things and the methodology > > behind it. > > The lack of a specific way of creating a GUI is really nice. > > > Ugh. Have you SEEN the X11 spec? If you have to write a window manager, > I've heard it's a bloody nightmare. Read the Unix Haters Handbook. The > PDF is online somewhere. They have a nice section explaining some of > it. For me, it's a matter of: I hate it, I know it's ass, but I have as > of yet to see a decent alternative that supports my video card, so I > don't complain too loudly when I use it. > > > > Randi Harper > > sektie@freebsdgirl.com > http://freebsdgirl.com > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 01:57:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DD216A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep16-int.chello.nl (amsfep16-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785AA43F75 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Received: from nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl ([212.142.29.165]) by amsfep16-int.chello.nlESMTP <20030902085656.VJER24754.amsfep16-int.chello.nl@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:56:56 +0200 Received: from hume.intra.bowtie.nl (hume.intra.bowtie.nl [192.168.4.13]) h828utWf073146; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:56:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joao@bowtie.nl) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:56:55 +0200 From: Joao Schim To: Randi Harper Message-Id: <20030902105655.0e2e3652.joao@bowtie.nl> In-Reply-To: <1B1966EA-DCF0-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <1B1966EA-DCF0-11D7-BDAD-000393D46EC6@freebsdgirl.com> Organization: BowTie Technology BV X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 08:57:01 -0000 On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:49:43 -0400 Randi Harper wrote: > > On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 10:45 PM, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 08:07 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: > > > >> My mom runs FreeBSD. ;) > > > > Good for her! So does my wife, who is an artist and not technical. > > > > But she runs text consoles THROUGH a Windows machine. > > Ah. My mother actually runs a FreeBSD desktop. Personally, I have a > FreeBSD 4.8 laptop, 2 servers running 5.1, and a windows box running > exceed (no explorer.exe) that stream x apps over the network from my > fbsd server. Windows gives me hives. > > > > >> A desktop of it's own? Let's clarify something here. Having something > >> like gnome or KDE doesn't qualify something as being a 'desktop' or > >> not. Surely you can recall the days before gnome and KDE were > >> popular. What did we use then? Window Maker? Enlightenment? KDE was > >> somewhat popular, but it didn't have the momentum it has now. Yes, > >> those are aimed at the Linux people. And for what it's worth, let > >> them have it. gnome and KDE are the toilet paper of the stinky gas > >> station bathroom that is X11, in my opinion. > > > > Yes, X11 is awkward and messy to build on. I do think that Apple's > > approach, > > which scuttles X11 as a foundation for a UNIX GUI, is the right way to > > go. > > (I have heard, however, that they will have a built-in X server in the > > next > > version of OS X, so they will be able to interoperate with UNIX code > > that > > relies on X11.) > > Absolutely. I got my first look at OS X a few days ago when I got my > new laptop, a PowerBook G4. I am loving it so far. I won't say it > doesn't have it's problems, but it's gold when you compare it to the > alternative. Clean, fast, and shiny. > > > > >> GTK, an integral part of gnome, works fine in FreeBSD. Instead of > >> people just sitting on their butts and whining 'I need a GUI, I need > >> things to click on, I want something that does stuff for me so I can > >> be a freaking moron but still be able to brag about my uname -a on > >> IRC', wouldn't it make sense to code one? > > > > It'd be better to start with something that's not GPLed, so that one > > was > > not planting yet another GPL poison pill within BSD. I and my > > employees will > > not even look at GPLed source, due to the legal problems this can > > cause a > > programmer who sometimes codes for money. > > Ack, thinks for pointing that out. I hadn't even considered that. Damn. > Well, can you think of a better toolkit to use for this purpose? Are > there any decent ones that aren't GPL'ed? How about that fancy toolkit called (open)motif .. That'll show 'm GPL folks ;) -- =========================================================================== Joao Schim telefoon:(+31)40-2649860 fax:(+31)40-2649861 http://www.bowtie.nl BowTie Technology BV Raiffeisenstraat 7 - 5611 CH Eindhoven From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 03:24:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6CB16A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EE044001 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:24:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDAC78B5F; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:24:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 303E4959DC; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:24:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id EBDEB95955; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:24:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B7F45B824; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:24:33 +0200 (CEST) To: Brad Knowles References: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:24:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brad Knowles's message of "Tue, 2 Sep 2003 03:00:26 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 10:24:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad Knowles writes: > At 5:05 PM -0400 2003/09/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Ddocs/38556 > > A scalable EPS file, done using sketch (http://sketch.sf.net) > This is indeed better than the image in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. It is? it looks like crap on my system (see the attached images). Is there something wrong with my setup? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no --=-=-=-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 04:06:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80A316A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (ti400720a080-2861.bb.online.no [80.212.171.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB6843F93 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from solskogen@carebears.mine.nu) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (localhost.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) by carebears.mine.nu (Postfix) with SMTP id A3091A1058 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 148.121.98.136 (SquirrelMail authenticated user solskogen) by carebears.mine.nu with HTTP; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4892.148.121.98.136.1062500752.squirrel@carebears.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <3F53B77C.45DC8796@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:05:52 +0200 (CEST) From: "Christer Solskogen" To: chat@freebsd.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:06:06 -0000 > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> > Or another alternative is his resolver code. His low-level DNS >> resolver >> > routines are in "public domain". >> > >> > Has anyone integrated djb's public domain resolver code into libc? >> >> I didn't see that the djbdns license declared it to be in the >> public domain. > > I am not sure where either. But DJB noted to bugtraq > <20020704164247.30990.qmail@cr.yp.to> a while back that: > > The .[ch] files (dns.h, dns_dfd.c, dns_domain.c, dns_dtda.c, dns_ip.c, > dns_ipq.c, dns_mx.c, dns_name.c, dns_nd.c, dns_packet.c, dns_random.c, > dns_rcip.c, dns_rcrw.c, dns_resolve.c, dns_sortip.c, dns_transmit.c, > dns_txt.c) and all necessary lower-level .[ch] files are now in the > public domain. > How about the compat libs? compat is in ports and in /usr/src, right? Is there a reason why? -- Med vennlig hilsen / Best regards Christer Solskogen http://dtz.cjb.net - http://carebears.mine.nu "Cheap, but not as cheap as your girlfriend!" -Spider Jerusalem From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 09:01:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F5E16A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uk.alink.co.za (mail.alink.co.za [213.253.1.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2038043FD7 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:01:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from george@alink.co.za) Received: from [195.8.70.199] (helo=spoem) by mail.uk.alink.co.za with smtp (Exim 3.36 #5) id 19uDbB-000CH4-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:01:41 +0100 Message-ID: <011b01c3716b$d03a0ad0$c74608c3@spoem> From: "George Barnett" To: Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:03:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: DPT Raid controller X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:01:43 -0000 Hi, Since DPT appear to no longer exist, I'm wondering if anybody might be able to mail me an image of floppy disc which has the management utilities for the DPT PM3334UW SCSI raid cards. I believe it's dos based and the filename is dptmgr.exe? Alternatively, if there are any binaries for FreeBSD, that would also be great. Any help would be appreciated.. cheers george -- George Barnett, Scsa Reality Engineer eml: george@alink.co.za gsm: +44 778 884 7205 www: www.alink.co.za There was a young lady from Hyde Who ate a green apple and died. While her lover lamented The apple fermented And made cider inside her inside. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 10:40:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0743916A4C2 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F3C43FE3 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2003090217404501400bp35ke>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:40:45 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HfL4d050621; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h82HfAfJ050620; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Brett Glass References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 10:41:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> (Brett Glass's message of "Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:53:34 -0600") Message-ID: <9nad9nm6kp.d9n@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Randi Harper Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:40:47 -0000 Brett Glass writes: > At 08:49 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: > >>Ack, thinks for pointing that out. I hadn't even considered >>that. Damn. Well, can you think of a better toolkit to use for this >>purpose? Are there any decent ones that aren't GPL'ed? > > I don't know. There's probably something out there that would fill > the bill. > > By the way, QT wasn't originally GPLed, but the Linuxoids beat on > the vendor until it capitulated and released a GPLed version. (I shortend the quotes, as Brett Windowized Randi's text into paragraph-per-line format. Windows must not have been GPLed.) One thing that Qt has going for it is that the Qt people offer cash money terms in addition to the GPL's cross-licensing terms, if you want to avoid GPL infection. I got started on a survey (starting at the table at http://www.atai.org/guitool/ ) of C++ GUI libraries one day last week, and found these (all with BSD/MIT-type licenses except as noted). There are several others listed in the table -- Arachne, Andrew, Yacl, Cvo, C++ wrappers of OpenMotif, and a few more. I'm guessing that most of these will work on FreeBSD with little work, except Fresco seems to need some "configure" work. The downside of them all is the small user base, and some have few docs. IVTools http://www.ivtools.org/ivtools/index.html Mostly supported by one guy who made a living off using it, but there is a small user group. This was a significant improvement of a GUI lib developled by the people behind X11's Fresco. FreeBSD port: /usr/ports/graphics/ivtools Amulet http://pecan.srv.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/misc/mosaic/common/omega/Web/Groups/amulet/amulet-home.html CMU webpages say they've put it in the public domain. I've seen little evidence of a user community, except: FreeBSD port: /usr/ports/devel/amulet Fresco http://www.fresco.org The name is being used by a GPL'd Fresco derivative, but a non-GPLed 1998 version is available. (I played with it on Linux back then.) Lots of "modern" features; uses CORBA, IDL, structured graphics, good layout scheme, etc., but needs more widgets, docs, and developers. Designed to be cross-platform, but has only been ported to Linux&WinNT. FreeBSD: Needs "configure" work. Zoolib http://zoolib.sourceforge.net Cross-platform. Sounds good, except few docs and few users. Open Amulet http://www.openip.org/oa_overview.html Open Amulet; homepage dated Jul'00 Someone tried to advance Amulet (PD wasn't open enough?), but seems to have given up. VCF http://vcf.sourceforge.net/ C++ API; sounds interesting; good docs. This looks quite good, but its main platform is MSFT and the Linux version is currrently broken. WideStudio http://www.widestudio.org/EE/index.html IDE+lib; web page mentions FreeBSD; Seems to have stopped development Dec'02. Looks good. YAAF http://www.yaaf.org/; said to be good; almost no docs; From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 11:09:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850B016A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail01.stbernard.com (mail01.stbernard.com [64.154.93.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E83443F93 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from salty.rapid.stbernard.com ([192.168.4.61]) by mail01.stbernard.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:09:13 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr.com To: Matthew Graybosch , Denis Troshin Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:09:13 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <20030901131942.GA20141@christabel.starbreaker.net> In-Reply-To: <20030901131942.GA20141@christabel.starbreaker.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309021109.13459.wes@softweyr.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2003 18:09:13.0761 (UTC) FILETIME=[50D6C910:01C3717D] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:09:19 -0000 On Monday 01 September 2003 06:19, Matthew Graybosch wrote: > On 16:58 Mon 01 Sep , Denis Troshin wrote: > > P.S. Under Windows it is possible to write not bad applications > > which depend just on libraries (KERNEL32, USER32, GDI32). And > > these libs exist on every base system!!! > > > > Is it possible in unix? > > > > Before I thought that unix programs very compact, but they are > > huge! > > If you want compact unix programs, don't use X apps or apps written > in scripting languages like Perl and Python. FreeBSD by itself > doesn't offer the monstrous APIs that Windows offers; it just offers > an implementation of the standard C library (libc). As a result, > stock FreeBSD is a very barebones environment. -bash-2.05b# size /usr/X11R6/bin/axe text data bss dec hex filename 111943 15860 4296 132099 20403 /usr/X11R6/bin/axe -bash-2.05b# ldd !$ ldd /usr/X11R6/bin/axe /usr/X11R6/bin/axe: libXaw3d.so.7 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXaw3d.so.7 (0x28081000) libXmu.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXmu.so.6 (0x280d4000) libXt.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6 (0x280e9000) libSM.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6 (0x28133000) libICE.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6 (0x2813c000) libXpm.so.4 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXpm.so.4 (0x28152000) libXext.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6 (0x28160000) libX11.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6 (0x2816e000) libc.so.4 => /usr/lib/libc.so.4 (0x2822a000) libXThrStub.so.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXThrStub.so.6 (0x282c3000) aXe is a reasonably functional text editor for X. Most people these days do not consider 111,943 bytes to be exceptionally large. Some of the libraries layered on top of X these days, GNOME and Qt/KDE in particular, tend to generate huge programs but that is the way of the world. Programs written in scripting languages like Perl and Python tend to favor development time over runtime issues. Which is better depends on the trade-offs in what you are attempting to accomplish. If you need a program this afternoon that does some relatively simple thing and you expect to run this program once or twice, spending a few years developing it versus a few hours writing a script is a very bad tradeoff. If you need a small program that does some specific task, use your favorite search engine. You will usually find a range of programs and can look further for the smallest or otherwise most appropriate one. I guess what I'm trying to say is "do your research, don't rely on platitudes and knee-jerk prejudices from people on mailing lists." And yes, this does belong on -chat. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 13:00:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918E116A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carver.gumbysoft.com (carver.gumbysoft.com [66.220.23.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4CD43FDD for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@gumbysoft.com) Received: by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 061F972DA3; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F2972DA2; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:00:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: George Barnett In-Reply-To: <011b01c3716b$d03a0ad0$c74608c3@spoem> Message-ID: <20030902125820.E76446@carver.gumbysoft.com> References: <011b01c3716b$d03a0ad0$c74608c3@spoem> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DPT Raid controller X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:00:10 -0000 On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, George Barnett wrote: > Since DPT appear to no longer exist, I'm wondering if anybody might be able > to mail me an image of floppy disc which has the management utilities for > the DPT PM3334UW SCSI raid cards. I believe it's dos based and the filename > is dptmgr.exe? Adaptec bought DPT, and the support files are available from adaptec's site. -- Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@gumbysoft.com | www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 14:28:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2346316A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2ECF43FF7 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h82LSlVP074130; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:28:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:33:11 +0200 To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Brad Knowles cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:28:54 -0000 At 12:24 PM +0200 2003/09/02, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: >> At 5:05 PM -0400 2003/09/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=docs/38556 >> > A scalable EPS file, done using sketch (http://sketch.sf.net) >> This is indeed better than the image in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. > > It is? it looks like crap on my system (see the attached images). Is > there something wrong with my setup? You attached PNG (Portable Network Graphic) images. The original images are both EPS (Encapsulated PostScript) files. EPS files are inherently scale-free, because they are vector-based. PNGs are bit-mapped. You must have some program you use to turn vector-based images into bit-mapped ones. Whatever that program is, it apparently rendered one file worse than the other. Perhaps you can use a different program that will let you look at the original EPS files in their native vector-based formats. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 14:30:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4564016A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A542E43FE3 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aradorlinux@yahoo.es) Received: from 61.red-81-42-134.pooles.rima-tde.net (HELO estel) (aradorlinux@81.42.134.61 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2003 21:30:32 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:26:55 +0200 From: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= To: Brett Glass Message-Id: <20030902232655.70016fbb.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> References: <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:30:42 -0000 El Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:55:21 -0600 Brett Glass escribi= =F3: > It doesn't seem as if this situation is likely to change, either. The=20 > incompatibilities between the BSDs (not just FreeBSD, but all of the BSD) > and the Linux desktops seem to grow daily. Both KDE and GNOME are pretty = much=20 > becoming by, of, and for Linux exclusively. Even FVWM (which, I understan= d,=20 > was once BSD-licensed) is now GPLed. There're people who is even maintaining apps between linux<->windows; I don= 't thing is that difficult to keep it working for more OSs One can't deny that most of the gnome thing is done by linux/solaris people. But the good thing of free software (let's not waste time discussing about the stupid licenses) is that you can make it work under freebsd. gnome and kde are getting better and better daily; things like openoffice, evolution or gstreamer ARE what makes you a desktop OS or not. Getting that working under BSDs will make you a desktop OS.There's no need to waste time discussing if BSD is a bit more free than GPL or not; just join to the= m, get the damned GPLed thing working and enjoy. Diego Calleja From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 15:04:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D7116A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mig.mig-29.net (dsl-200-67-215-158.prodigy.net.mx [200.67.215.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE1243FB1 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mig@mig-29.net) Received: from mig.mig-29.net (localhost.mig-29.net [127.0.0.1]) by mig.mig-29.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h82M2Z3N007890; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:02:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mig@mig.mig-29.net) Received: (from mig@localhost) by mig.mig-29.net (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h82M2Yu7007889; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:02:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mig) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:02:34 -0500 From: Manuel Rabade - MiG To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030902220234.GB341@mig-29.net> References: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i URL: http://www.mig-29.net/ cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:04:59 -0000 By the way, anyone knows if the poster in this photo: http://people.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/Thursday/DSCF0034.JPG The one that saids: "WINDOWS: Where do you want to go today?, LINUX: Where do you want to go tomorrow?, BSD: Are you guys comming or what?" are freelly distributed ? I think that a t-shirt with that would be cool :). On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 09:33:11PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:24 PM +0200 2003/09/02, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > > Brad Knowles writes: > >> At 5:05 PM -0400 2003/09/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=docs/38556 > >> > A scalable EPS file, done using sketch (http://sketch.sf.net) > >> This is indeed better than the image in /usr/share/examples/BSD_daemon/. > > > > It is? it looks like crap on my system (see the attached images). Is > > there something wrong with my setup? > > You attached PNG (Portable Network Graphic) images. The original > images are both EPS (Encapsulated PostScript) files. EPS files are > inherently scale-free, because they are vector-based. PNGs are > bit-mapped. > > You must have some program you use to turn vector-based images > into bit-mapped ones. Whatever that program is, it apparently > rendered one file worse than the other. > > Perhaps you can use a different program that will let you look at > the original EPS files in their native vector-based formats. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 15:18:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F47716A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D024D4400E for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h82MIAVP077108; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:18:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030902220234.GB341@mig-29.net> References: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> <20030902220234.GB341@mig-29.net> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:18:02 +0200 To: Manuel Rabade - MiG From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: Brad Knowles cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:18:14 -0000 At 5:02 PM -0500 2003/09/02, Manuel Rabade - MiG wrote: > By the way, anyone knows if the poster in this photo: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/Thursday/DSCF0034.JPG > > The one that saids: "WINDOWS: Where do you want to go today?, LINUX: Where do > you want to go tomorrow?, BSD: Are you guys comming or what?" are freelly > distributed ? I think that a t-shirt with that would be cool :). If we can find out what the license is, it's easy enough to go to CafePress and set up your own shop and make that available on t-shirts, baseball caps, and a whole host of other clothing items. Of course, making sure that you get final approval from Kirk once all that is set up. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 17:01:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB2716A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D217443FDD for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26801; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:00:24 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902175916.028eb230@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:00:22 -0600 To: Randi Harper , Vulpes Velox From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <20030902051334.6de9da27.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:01:09 -0000 At 11:33 PM 9/1/2003, Randi Harper wrote: >Ugh. Have you SEEN the X11 spec? If you have to write a window manager, I've heard it's a bloody nightmare. Read the Unix Haters Handbook. The PDF is online somewhere. They have a nice section explaining some of it. For me, it's a matter of: I hate it, I know it's ass, but I have as of yet to see a decent alternative that supports my video card, so I don't complain too loudly when I use it. The best thing about XFree86, IMHO, is that it would be an excellent source of hardware driver code for a GOOD system. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 17:04:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAEE16A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7124A43FE0 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26850; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:03:30 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:03:28 -0600 To: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <9nad9nm6kp.d9n@mail.comcast.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chad@gcatt.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Randi Harper Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:04:11 -0000 At 11:41 AM 9/2/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >One thing that Qt has going for it is that the Qt people offer cash >money terms in addition to the GPL's cross-licensing terms, if you >want to avoid GPL infection. Actually, GPL/commercial dual licensing is a very raw deal for the company that's attempting to sell the commercial licenses. They've set themselves up to compete with a version of their own code that has no commercial value... because end users can get it free of charge. It's not exactly a good idea to destroy the commercial value of your product and then try to sell it. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 17:06:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A9416A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D30743F3F for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:06:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26897; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:06:23 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:06:20 -0600 To: Diego Calleja Garcia From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030902232655.70016fbb.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:06:42 -0000 At 03:26 PM 9/2/2003, Diego Calleja Garcia wrote: >But the good thing of free software (let's not waste time discussing about >the stupid licenses) is that you can make it work under freebsd. If it's GPLed, you shouldn't be trying to make it work ANYWHERE. Period. >gnome and kde are getting better and better daily; things like openoffice, >evolution or gstreamer ARE what makes you a desktop OS or not. Getting that >working under BSDs will make you a desktop OS.There's no need to waste >time discussing if BSD is a bit more free than GPL or not; Yes, there is. Your attitude is precisely the reason that Stallman's malicious agenda is succeeding. >just join to them, Join Stallman's vendetta, like the other sheep? No way. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 18:11:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36A816A4C0 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E7543FB1 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030903011129.QHHC806.mta10.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:11:29 -0400 Message-ID: <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:11:27 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:11:29 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:41 AM 9/2/2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > >>One thing that Qt has going for it is that the Qt people offer cash >>money terms in addition to the GPL's cross-licensing terms, if you >>want to avoid GPL infection. > > > Actually, GPL/commercial dual licensing is a very raw deal for the > company that's attempting to sell the commercial licenses. They've > set themselves up to compete with a version of their own code that > has no commercial value... because end users can get it free of > charge. It's not exactly a good idea to destroy the commercial value > of your product and then try to sell it. Nonsense. There are a number of companies that are making a go at it with that model. Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer. How about MySQL for goodness sakes? Redhat may not be the richest company in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy. That just seemed like a really outrageous statement to me. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 18:50:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726D616A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 988DD4400E for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 1839 invoked by uid 1002); 3 Sep 2003 00:48:39 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:48:39 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030903004839.GA1625@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:50:11 -0000 I'm not trying to argue with Brett, this is for the benefit of newcomers/lurkers who aren't familiar with Brett's agenda. Brett Glass wrote: [Qt] > Actually, GPL/commercial dual licensing is a very raw deal for the > company that's attempting to sell the commercial licenses. They've > set themselves up to compete with a version of their own code that > has no commercial value... Actually, it's an excellent model. If you want to use Qt in your own proprietary non-GPL code, you need to buy a licence from them (and lots of people are doing that), and at the same time they can get their code into free linux and BSD desktops and build their brand recognition. They're doing just fine. If you think they'd have done better with the BSD licence, you should perhaps start your own software company. In fact they would not even have considered the LGPL, since that would have allowed linking to non-GPL projects. The "competing with your own freeware" argument applies much more forcefully to the BSD licence. BSDI eventually couldn't compete with the free BSDs and Linux, the commercial SSH company isn't doing well against OpenSSH (some time ago they even tried to claim SSH as their trademark and get OpenSSH to change their name). In both these cases they were out-competed by free descendants of their ancestral code, not even code contemporary with their own. Most commercial companies won't even consider the BSD licence for new code, though if they're nice they may contribute to projects with an existing BSD licence. There are good arguments for the BSD licence but they have nothing to do with commercial benefit. Some valid arguments are that it helps promote open standards (a partially-broken Kerberos from Microsoft is better than a totally rewritten incompatible version) and that, if you start out without commercial goals but later change your mind, you can more easily re-use your own code without worrying about others' copyrights. This doesn't apply to Troll Tech et al, because they've had that scenario in mind from the start and are scrupulous about others' copyrights, while they do indeed want to prevent other people's commercial use of their code without paying (so, no BSD licence, no LGPL). Another example is ghostscript: Peter Deutsch came up with the Aladdin licence (much more restrictive than the GPL) because the GPL did not squash every kind of commercial use: eg, it can be aggregated/bundled on a CD-ROM with non-GPL payware and that entire package can be sold for profit under a restrictive licence. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 20:25:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C9D16A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E7E43FDF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28939; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:25:17 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902211245.033c65d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:25:16 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903004839.GA1625@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 03:25:34 -0000 At 06:48 PM 9/2/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Actually, it's an excellent model. If you want to use Qt in your own >proprietary non-GPL code, you need to buy a licence from them (and lots >of people are doing that) No, lots of people are NOT doing that. They're finding ways to use the GPLed version and keeping their money. Stallman, Perens & Co. fraudulently claim that it's possible to make a decent income by dual licensing. But they know that it isn't so, and are hoping that they can sucker gullible companies into adopting that business model. After which, they're bound to fail. You see, if you give ANY code to end users for free, the market value of its functionality tautologically becomes zero. (It has to, since an informed buyer won't pay anything for something that s/he can get for free.) Any customer who pays to license something which adds zero market value to his or her product is in the hole from the start. So, while a few foolish ones might do it, they'll quickly go out of business and stop paying license fees. And the smarter ones will simply use the no-cost version, on any terms that are necessary. >The "competing with your own freeware" argument applies much more >forcefully to the BSD licence. No, it does not, because (a) there's no fraud and (b) it's possible to make money from making incremental improvements. This is not possible under the GPL, because GPLed code forces anyone who makes an incremental improvement on the original to forfeit all rewards for his or her work. The BSD license does not. This doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea to give away your uniquely valuable code under the BSD license, either. But the notion that the GPL somehow "protects" you if you do this is bogus and fraudulent. Again, this fraud is perpetrated by anti-business zealots, such as Bruce Perens, who hope to kill commercial software businesses and have done so quite successfully this way. >There are good arguments for the BSD licence but they have nothing to do >with commercial benefit. Actually, there are commercial benefits to licensing under the BSD license. Among other things, you can set a standard (witness the Berkeley TCP/IP stack) and can foster development of software that works with a commercial product (e.g. giving away skeleton drivers so that vendors can write device drivers for your commercial operating system). >Some valid arguments are that it helps promote >open standards (a partially-broken Kerberos from Microsoft is better >than a totally rewritten incompatible version) and that, if you start >out without commercial goals but later change your mind, you can more >easily re-use your own code without worrying about others' copyrights. All true. But more importantly, the BSD license is ethical because it is not an attempt to destroy others' livelihoods. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 20:27:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C116216A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9699E44005 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28960; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:27:20 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902212530.033d8520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:27:18 -0600 To: Bill Moran From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 03:27:28 -0000 At 07:11 PM 9/2/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >Nonsense. There are a number of companies that are making a go at it >with that model. Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer. Not analogous. Acrobat Reader does not come with source code. >How about MySQL for goodness sakes? Redhat may not be the richest company >in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy. Red Hat is still squandering the money it raked in from foolish investors during the dot-com bubble. It's had only a few profitable quarters in its entire history, and large losses in the others. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 20:43:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6255416A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0632E43FE5 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29067; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:43:05 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902214151.028f4a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:43:03 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903033727.GA3243@online.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902211245.033c65d0@localhost> <20030903004839.GA1625@online.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902211245.033c65d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 03:43:17 -0000 At 09:37 PM 9/2/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >http://www.trolltech.com/company/customers.html?cid=10 >http://www.trolltech.com/devices/index.html > >They're becoming pretty big on embedded platforms in particular (as are >Opera, who also are their customers but for some reason aren't mentioned >on the above pages). And are losing business to embedded Linux implementations that use their GPLed version. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 2 20:50:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8304416A4BF for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3B5043FA3 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 4270 invoked by uid 1002); 3 Sep 2003 03:37:27 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:37:27 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030903033727.GA3243@online.fr> References: <20030903004839.GA1625@online.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902211245.033c65d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902211245.033c65d0@localhost> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 03:50:13 -0000 Brett Glass said on Sep 2, 2003 at 21:25:16: > At 06:48 PM 9/2/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >Actually, it's an excellent model. If you want to use Qt in your own > >proprietary non-GPL code, you need to buy a licence from them (and lots > >of people are doing that) > > No, lots of people are NOT doing that. http://www.trolltech.com/company/customers.html?cid=10 http://www.trolltech.com/devices/index.html They're becoming pretty big on embedded platforms in particular (as are Opera, who also are their customers but for some reason aren't mentioned on the above pages). > and stop paying license fees. And the smarter ones will simply use the > no-cost version, on any terms that are necessary. The terms are that their own products be GPL'd; as you'd normally be the first to point out, most companies find that unacceptable. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 01:10:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DCD16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308EA43FE3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0qh.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.3.81] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uSiw-0007ZJ-00; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:10:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:09:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40f590ffcf5c3ac3297f3e2d3c2d6054da7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:10:53 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: [ ... Free Code vs. Commercial Interest ... ] > Nonsense. There are a number of companies that are making a go at it > with that model. Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer. How > about MySQL for goodness sakes? Redhat may not be the richest company > in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy. Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the DMCA. Don't tell me you've forgotten the Skylarov case already. They "backed off", but claimed "our hands are tied", after triggering the events leading up to his arrest. It didn't matter if they paid lip-service after pulling the trigger: their bullet was already headed inexoriably towards their intended target, and it was in their best interests to paint the enforcers of their will as the bad guys, instead of themselves. The MySQL people don't exactly sell software, they sell support. Like the third generation copy protection schemes on the PC, the impetus for the support comes from the inability to fully utilize the product without it. I don't know if you are old enough to remember "PC Talk" and "PC Write", etc., but I will tell you what I saw the author of the first commercial ShareWare product success story say one time at a computer conference: "Software is all...", he said, making vigorous hand motions around and above his head, "...is all up here. I don't sell software. I sell manuals". This was a really sad thing to have happened. Because of this model, it's very rare to find software which can be used easily and intuitively by someone who has never used it before: people have been trained by software vendors to expect software to be hard to use, non-intuitive, and require training and manuals and after-market books to even be able to accomplish very little. It is very like the way Windows users have been trained to feel that rebooting your machine is somehow a "solution" to the problem of your machine crashing. RedHat doesn't sell Linux. They don't even sell documentation and training (though they'd desperately like to do so). What RedHat sells is productization. Their market exists because: 1) They are permitted use of the Linux name, even though they replace the installer, user space packages, or even (in a fit of ill-consideration) the C compiler. 2) They are willing to address the usability issues that traditional geeks are not willing to address, and even, in many circumstances, consider their arcane knowledge of how to work around quirks that shouldn't be there in the first place a badge of honor, to be worn proudly. Lest you make a mistake and believe that there is room for more than one RedHat in the Linux market, as Caldera and a host of others have done, let me point you at the lesson of GCC, which even the FSF was forced to learn, when their main-line GCC was replaced by EGCS. Just because it's called GCC today doesn't mean that the FSF was behind the change-over to EGCS; they merely recognized the inevitability of their being room for only one niche-player in any given niche, given the GPL model, and they are smart enough to pick their battles. Pretty much for any GPL'ed code example of a live company that you can come up with, I will be able to point out that they are singular in their market place because of the marginal costs of developement, and the inability to amortize costs of reaching the status quo with their competitors. The GCC is a good case study in this regard, as well: not as an "exception to prove the rule", but because the marginal costs of making contributions to the FSF's version of GCC were very high, compared to the costs of contributing to EGCS (assignments of rights to sign, paperwork, employer approvals). It was a *lot* easier to contribute code to EGCS (via Cygnus), than it was to contribute code to GCC (via the FSF): *that* is why EGCS won, though it was effectively absorbed by the FSF while it was still unbalanced by the FSF's declaration of its victory. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 01:29:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1202916A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8EA43FE5 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14544792BF; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:29:34 +0200 (MEST) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id AAAD79642F; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:29:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id DB8CA96355; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:29:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id AA2FCB824; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:29:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Brad Knowles References: <20030901210523.GA1165@online.fr> <20030902220234.GB341@mig-29.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:29:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Brad Knowles's message of "Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:18:02 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: Rahul Siddharthan cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List cc: Manuel Rabade - MiG Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:29:41 -0000 Brad Knowles writes: > If we can find out what the license is, it's easy enough to go > to CafePress and set up your own shop and make that available on > t-shirts, baseball caps, and a whole host of other clothing items. I believe the original quote is by eivind@. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 02:27:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AB616A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 02:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (external.osdn.org.ua [212.40.34.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E516244028 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 02:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: from kurush.osdn.org.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h839Rluv031202; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:27:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@kurush.osdn.org.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by kurush.osdn.org.ua (8.12.6p2/8.12.6/Submit) id h839Rlwd031199; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:27:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:27:47 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030903092747.GA6112@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <20030901030044.E08B83A25F@www.fastmail.fm> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD icons & graphics... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:27:54 -0000 Hello, Brad Knowles! On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 01:22:44AM +0200, you wrote: > At 11:00 PM -0400 2003/08/31, Bobb Shires wrote: > > > Don't remember where I found this but it might help you. > > http://www.smv.org/images/beastie.gif Adobe Illustrator redrawing from UAFUG: http://uafug.org.ua/~never/beastie/beastie_v8.zip prewview: http://uafug.org.ua/~never/beastie/beastie_trans.gif -- NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 06:53:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F2616A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE9F44005 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:53:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030903135325.QQRY806.mta10.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:53:25 -0400 Message-ID: <3F55F253.9090305@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:53:23 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:53:25 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Bill Moran wrote: > [ ... Free Code vs. Commercial Interest ... ] > >>Nonsense. There are a number of companies that are making a go at it >>with that model. Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer. How >>about MySQL for goodness sakes? Redhat may not be the richest company >>in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy. > > > Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, > and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard > the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement > practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the > DMCA. See ... to me, that's kind of like saying that because drunk drivers kill people, nobody should be allowed to drive. a) Yes the Adobe model is not exactly the same what's being discussed, but it's a similar approach. b) Just because Adobe abused it, doesn't mean it can't work. And it doesn't mean that the abuse is necessary to make it work. > Don't tell me you've forgotten the Skylarov case already. They > "backed off", but claimed "our hands are tied", after triggering > the events leading up to his arrest. It didn't matter if they > paid lip-service after pulling the trigger: their bullet was > already headed inexoriably towards their intended target, and it > was in their best interests to paint the enforcers of their will > as the bad guys, instead of themselves. I'm not familiar with that case, so I can't discuss it with any intelligence. Do you feel that Adobe's business model would have failed if they had not taken the actions you despise? I mean, that's the real question of relevence. > The MySQL people don't exactly sell software, they sell support. > Like the third generation copy protection schemes on the PC, the > impetus for the support comes from the inability to fully utilize > the product without it. I don't know if you are old enough to > remember "PC Talk" and "PC Write", etc., but I will tell you what > I saw the author of the first commercial ShareWare product success > story say one time at a computer conference: > > "Software is all...", he said, making vigorous hand > motions around and above his head, "...is all up > here. I don't sell software. I sell manuals". > > This was a really sad thing to have happened. Because of this > model, it's very rare to find software which can be used easily > and intuitively by someone who has never used it before: people > have been trained by software vendors to expect software to be > hard to use, non-intuitive, and require training and manuals and > after-market books to even be able to accomplish very little. It > is very like the way Windows users have been trained to feel that > rebooting your machine is somehow a "solution" to the problem of > your machine crashing. I agree. Microsoft probably makes as much off books and classes as they do selling software. And, frankly, despite their whole market slant of "easy to use", I find that their software is actually _more_ compliated than other choices, usually in such a way that it's obvious that it was intentionally made so. On the other hand, I've found the MySQL docs to be very well done, so I'm unsure how you're applying this issue to them. You have a lot to say about Redhat and GCC that's well founded, but let me turn the tables on you, because (to me) this is the meat of the whole discussion. How, exactly, am I supposed to pay my bills? How do you pay yours, Terry? I started my own business years ago because I reached a point where I was simply unwilling to continue working for people who were either lying, cheating, blankety-blanks, or in control of my job while being too stupid to ensure any level of stability (which is terribly upsetting, because I don't consider myself all that smart, so trying to accept that the person who ultimately decides if I'll have a job next week is stupider than me is a bit too much) I don't want to make a gazillion dollars (OK, I wouldn't mind) I just want to work in conditions where I don't feel like I'm violating everything I think is right. And I believe if Adobe, and people like Adobe, thought more like me, they could make their business models work _without_ resorting to Nazi shock troops. I suppose it's possible that I'm living in a dream world. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 06:59:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F300516A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5318F43FE3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19uYBE-000409-00 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:00:16 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19uXx1-0003oB-00 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:45:35 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19uXwU-0003VZ-00 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:45:02 +0200 From: MC Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:45:01 +0200 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 37 Message-ID: <867k4q6l5u.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> References: <20030902051334.6de9da27.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:8oGabnukM73KXfAC8CvokFRFp7I= Sender: news Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:59:49 -0000 Randi Harper writes: > Have you SEEN the X11 spec? Yes. It's freely available, as I'm sure you know. It's not that long, btw. It's all the extensions that make the usual X11 server these days so large. Most of them I'm sure the avarage user doesn't need. > If you have to write a window manager, I've heard it's a bloody > nightmare. Really? Why? There's even source code for a simple window manager included in one of the O'Reilly X books: Volume One: Xlib Programming Manual, chapter 14. It's not very long, either. What /is/ cumbersome, however, is dealing with colour in X, but that's usually easier these days. > Read the Unix Haters Handbook. I have. It's true that early implementations of X servers were unstable and very large for the hardware they executed on. Things, however, have changed a lot since then. I'm not saying the X Window System is perfect. Not at all. For a long time I, myself, kept to running Bellcore's MGR as a window system on my Sun workstations. I even tried to maintain MGR and ported it and various MGR utilities to Solaris and Linux/SPARC. The modern XFree86 servers, however, are rather nice, have plenty of support for graphics hardware and are based on modules. You can comment out lots of modules, such as support for PEX, OpenGL and whatnot, and have your X server start much faster and be rather small, memory wise. -- MC, Temple of the Moby Hack - http://hack.org/~mc/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 08:03:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C5A16A4C0 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B086B4400B for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:03:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 2200 invoked by uid 1002); 3 Sep 2003 15:03:03 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:03:03 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030903150303.GA2028@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:03:14 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > Pretty much for any GPL'ed code example of a live company that > you can come up with, I will be able to point out that they are > singular in their market place because of the marginal costs of > developement, and the inability to amortize costs of reaching the > status quo with their competitors. To get back to the original example: Qt? It's been entirely developed by Troll Tech, at certainly not "marginal" cost, and though they started off with a not-quite-free licence, they're doing fine with a GPL+commercial dual-licensing system now. They have a competitor, Gtk+, which is LGPL'd and thus can be used in commercial products without "infection" or licensing costs, but many people find Qt superior and -- even though the GPL version is available -- are willing to pay to avoid GPL "infection". I'd argue that the GPL and the KDE project have helped them by giving them and their toolkit wide exposure which they'd never have got as a purely commercial product, and at the same time preventing free use of their toolkit by commercial competitors. Even so, they switched to the GPL only when they were convinced it would not hurt their business, and they have stated since that they are happy with that move. An older example, as I said, is ghostscript, whose cost isn't "marginal" either; but the comparison is not quite the same, since they released GPL versions a year after their commercial/AFPL versions. Nevertheless, it is a successful model using the GPL. A third example is StarOffice. Many people are buying it from Sun rather than downloading OpenOffice, for support and additional features. I'm not sure how much money it makes, but its problem is competition from Microsoft Office, not OpenOffice; in fact it is doing better than any other office suite in the last several years. > The GCC is a good case study in this regard, as well: not as an > "exception to prove the rule", but because the marginal costs of > making contributions to the FSF's version of GCC were very high, > compared to the costs of contributing to EGCS (assignments of > rights to sign, paperwork, employer approvals). It was a *lot* > easier to contribute code to EGCS (via Cygnus), than it was to > contribute code to GCC (via the FSF): The EGCS team assigned all copyrights to the FSF, just as with all other official GNU projects. The reason it was easier to contribute was that they used a more open development model and exposed their CVS tree to the world, which the original GCC people did not do, and had open mailing lists where user problems and patches could be discussed. Eric Raymond pointed out long ago that, in his terminology, most GNU projects originally followed the "cathedral" model, rather than the "bazaar" model of the linux kernel and the BSD's; the EGCS experiment was a demonstration of the effectiveness of the "bazaar" model. The GPL has nothing to do with this. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 09:24:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37A516A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C6443FDD for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2003090316243101500mh6e5e>; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:24:31 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GP24d072851; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h83GOunO072850; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Terry Lambert References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:24:56 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> (Terry Lambert's message of "Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:09:00 -0700") Message-ID: <2xr82xlu07.82x@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:24:32 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, > and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard > the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement > practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the > DMCA. Please explain further. I thought that PDF was a sort of PostScript-ng, with an unobfuscated (or even documented) file format. I guess I formed that opinion based on the ability of Ghostscript to print and view PDF files. Is it based on reverse engineering PDF files? Do PDF files contain IP protection features? Does Adobe think its developers and/or users copyright infringers under the DMCA? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 10:08:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8E916A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de (mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de [129.70.4.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD7943FEC for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ) Received: from autoreply-daemon.mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de by mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.15 (built Apr 28 2003)) id <0HKN00F02E9FX7@mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:08:03 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:08:03 +0200 (MEST) From: lars.koeller@uni-bielefeld.de In-reply-to: <0HKN00I8NE8QMN@mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <0HKN00F03E9FX7@mail1.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Subject: Re Re: Re: My details X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:08:05 -0000 Ich bin zur Zeit außer Haus. Ihre EMail bezüglich lese ich nach meiner Rückkehr. In DRINGENDEN Fällen kontaktieren Sie bitte hrz-hotline@uni-bielefeld.de , dietmar.heinrichs@uni-bielefeld.de oder harald.picard@uni-bielefeld.de Vielen Dank! L. Köller --------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, I'm out of office. Your message will be read when I return. In URGENT cases please contact hrz-hotline@uni-bielefeld.de , dietmar.heinrichs@uni-bielefeld.de or harald.picard@uni-bielefeld.de Thanks and best regards L. Köller -- E-Mail: Lars.Koeller@Uni-Bielefeld.DE Lars Köller lkoeller@FreeBSD.org CC University of PGP: http://www.uk.pgp.net/pgpnet/wwwkeys.html Bielefeld, Germany Key-ID: A430D499 Tel: +49 521 106 4964 ----------- FreeBSD, what else? ---- http://www.freebsd.org ------------- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 10:35:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4426316A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3D243F93 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:35:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h83HYV9H014698; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:34:31 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h83HYUOv014696; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:34:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:34:30 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Message-ID: <20030903173430.GA14686@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2xr82xlu07.82x@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:35:14 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, > > and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard > > the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement > > practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the > > DMCA. > > Please explain further. I thought that PDF was a sort of > PostScript-ng, with an unobfuscated (or even documented) file format. Yes and no. For xpdf's take on it, see http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/cracking.html > Does Adobe think > its developers and/or users copyright infringers under the DMCA? Haven't you heard of the Sklyarov case? Google for it, see in particular the EFF site. http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_sklyarov_faq.html Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 10:48:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E6916A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8231943FCB for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05893; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:48:40 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903114542.03588100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:48:33 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , Bill Moran From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:48:52 -0000 At 02:09 AM 9/3/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >Bill Moran wrote: >[ ... Free Code vs. Commercial Interest ... ] > >> Nonsense. There are a number of companies that are making a go at it >> with that model. Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer. How >> about MySQL for goodness sakes? Redhat may not be the richest company >> in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy. > >Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, >and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard >the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement >practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the >DMCA. Exactly. And it's necessary to give away the viewer to stimulate sales of the authoring tool. In short, they're not giving away what they're trying to sell. >The MySQL people don't exactly sell software, they sell support. [Snip] >RedHat doesn't sell Linux. They don't even sell documentation and >training (though they'd desperately like to do so). What RedHat >sells is productization. [Snip] Exactly. Which is the goal of the GPL: To prevent programmers from earning a decent living by being programmers. (It's OK with Stallman if they're reduced to the level of plastic disc manufacturers or tech support grunts.) --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 11:11:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6940016A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C6943FD7 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06040; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:03:47 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903114954.035693f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:51:43 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903150303.GA2028@online.fr> References: <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:11:39 -0000 At 09:03 AM 9/3/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >To get back to the original example: Qt? It's been entirely developed >by Troll Tech, at certainly not "marginal" cost, and though they started >off with a not-quite-free licence, they're doing fine with a >GPL+commercial dual-licensing system now. No, they're not "doing fine;" they're just not out of business yet. >An older example, as I said, is ghostscript, whose cost isn't "marginal" >either; but the comparison is not quite the same, since they released >GPL versions a year after their commercial/AFPL versions. Nevertheless, >it is a successful model using the GPL. Wrong again. Deutsch hasn't gotten a Postscript consulting contract in years. >A third example is StarOffice. Many people are buying it from Sun >rather than downloading OpenOffice, for support and additional features. Another example of selling something else besides the software. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 11:22:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD0D16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [216.136.174.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D282B43FBD for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aradorlinux@yahoo.es) Received: from 114.red-81-42-134.pooles.rima-tde.net (HELO estel) (aradorlinux@81.42.134.114 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 18:22:20 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:22:05 +0200 From: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= To: Brett Glass Message-Id: <20030903202205.7ba5dab2.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:22:22 -0000 El Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:06:20 -0600 Brett Glass escribi= =F3: > If it's GPLed, you shouldn't be trying to make it work ANYWHERE. Period. Well... > Yes, there is. Your attitude is precisely the reason that Stallman's mali= cious > agenda is succeeding. *ahem*. I'm not by any means a GPL advocate. > Join Stallman's vendetta, like the other sheep? No way. Then go and rewrite gnome and kde in a BSD license, ok? I've nothing against it... You'll be at their level by 2025, go ahead...or make gnome and kde work under freebsd and get a freebsd desktop TODAY. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 11:53:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BDC16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B1A43FEA for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h83Iqc9H015315; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:52:38 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h83Iqb6T015313; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:52:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:52:37 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030903185237.GA15280@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903114954.035693f0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:53:21 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:03 AM 9/3/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >To get back to the original example: Qt? It's been entirely developed > >by Troll Tech, at certainly not "marginal" cost, and though they started > >off with a not-quite-free licence, they're doing fine with a > >GPL+commercial dual-licensing system now. > > No, they're not "doing fine;" they're just not out of business yet. So let's talk when they're out of business, ok? That's not happening today. > >An older example, as I said, is ghostscript, whose cost isn't "marginal" > >either; but the comparison is not quite the same, since they released > >GPL versions a year after their commercial/AFPL versions. Nevertheless, > >it is a successful model using the GPL. > > Wrong again. Deutsch hasn't gotten a Postscript consulting contract in > years. That's because he handed over maintainership to ArtOfCode (http://www.artofcode.com) in 2000. For those interested in facts rather than polemics, here's an interview with Peter Deutsch from 1998 where he talks about his work and earning a living, among other things. http://devlinux.org/deutsch-interview.html His problem with the GPL: The GPL takes the point of view that it rewards cooperation by making the work done cooperatively available freely to anyone who is willing to play by those rules, but it does not draw a hard line that prevents that work from also being used in a way that makes money for other people who weren't involved in its creation. [ie, it's not "anti-commercial" *enough*. A bit later,] STIG The GPL doesn't address the issue of making money for people who create and maintain GPLed works. It's just that, de facto, if you hold the copyright then you don't have to use the GPL and that's what you've done with Ghostscript. PETER That's correct. And as far as I know, I am the first person, and so far perhaps the only substantial person, who has taken advantage of that. [this was 1998, before Troll Tech & others] As you recall, I promised Stallman that I would continue to distribute Ghostscript with the GNU license. But I saw a number of companies bundling Ghostscript with commercial products while just barely complying with the letter of the GNU license, so I decided that I did not want to make Ghostscript as available for commercial distribution as it would be with the GNU license. And so I am now continuing to distribute Ghostscript with the GNU license, but about two revisions back from the version with the Aladdin license. The latest version is now always called Aladdin Ghostscript instead of GNU Ghostscript, and is released with the Aladdin Free Public License. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 12:04:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A5516A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F1043FF9 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20030903190412013005taehe>; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:04:12 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83J4h4d075086; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h83J4b8A075085; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <20030903173430.GA14686@online.fr> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:04:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030903173430.GA14686@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:34:30 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:04:16 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/cracking.html > http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_sklyarov_faq.html Thanks for the links. Typical PDF files are "open", but some PDF fils have "security" features (eg, to prevent printing or copying). Sklyarov and his employer got in trouble over some software that could break similar security features of a different Adobe product. So PDF files which use PDF security features are presumably covered by the DMCA too. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 12:22:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B695D16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9955243FB1 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07091; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:21:57 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:19:39 -0600 To: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903202205.7ba5dab2.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:22:17 -0000 At 12:22 PM 9/3/2003, Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= wrote: >*ahem*. I'm not by any means a GPL advocate. You have "linux" in your e-mail address. >Then go and rewrite gnome and kde in a BSD license, ok? Actually, there are opportunities to do things that are MUCH better. Starting with X11 (which was designed for limited CPU, limited memory, and plentiful network bandwidth -- exactly the opposite of today's conditions) puts both of these environments at a big disadvantage. Yes, one would have to build up driver support, but this would be helped by the fact that the X11 code can be mined for information and code to support the cards. >I've nothing against it... > >You'll be at their level by 2025, Why so long? After all, unlike GPLed code, it'd be usable by commercial software vendors, so they'd be likely to support the effort. >go ahead...or make gnome and kde work under freebsd You'll probably achive THIS in about 2025, if ever. They're designed for Linux, not FreeBSD, and the developers have no interest in supporting anything that's not GPLed (or is not Linux). >and get a freebsd desktop TODAY. So, you're suggesting that FreeBSD users put up with incompatibilities, glitches, and an unethical licensing regime merely because they can get something that KINDA works today? This is very shortsighted. Why not just go with Windows? It has all of the same attributes. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 12:22:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5687316A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376B743FF5 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07095; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:22:04 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131950.0360d4e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:21:51 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903185237.GA15280@online.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903114954.035693f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:22:24 -0000 At 12:52 PM 9/3/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >To get back to the original example: Qt? It's been entirely developed >> >by Troll Tech, at certainly not "marginal" cost, and though they started >> >off with a not-quite-free licence, they're doing fine with a >> >GPL+commercial dual-licensing system now. >> >> No, they're not "doing fine;" they're just not out of business yet. > >So let's talk when they're out of business, ok? That's not happening >today. Like many GPL zealots, you appear to want to put discussions of the GPL's effects off until its achieved its purpose. At which point it will, of course, be too late. >> Wrong again. Deutsch hasn't gotten a Postscript consulting contract in >> years. > >That's because he handed over maintainership to ArtOfCode >(http://www.artofcode.com) in 2000. > >For those interested in facts rather than polemics, here's an >interview with Peter Deutsch from 1998 where he talks about his work >and earning a living, among other things. > >http://devlinux.org/deutsch-interview.html > >His problem with the GPL: > > The GPL takes the point of view that it rewards cooperation by making > the work done cooperatively available freely to anyone who is willing > to play by those rules, but it does not draw a hard line that prevents > that work from also being used in a way that makes money for other > people who weren't involved in its creation. Exactly. To Deutsch, the notion of ANYONE (other than him!) making money was evil. A hypocritical and malicious viewpoint. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 13:25:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DE116A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spork.pantherdragon.org (spork.pantherdragon.org [206.29.168.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697BA43FA3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@bitfreak.org) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (12-206-23-247.client.attbi.com [12.206.23.247]) by spork.pantherdragon.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DDD2A41F; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speck.techno.pagans (localhost.techno.pagans [127.0.0.1]) by speck.techno.pagans (Postfix) with SMTP id C2CE7C0D0; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:24:57 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim To: Brett Glass Message-Id: <20030903132457.3602c35e.dmp@bitfreak.org> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa?= cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:25:07 -0000 On 2003.09.03 13:19:39 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > So, you're suggesting that FreeBSD users put up with > incompatibilities, glitches, and an unethical licensing regime merely > because they can get something that KINDA works today? This is very > shortsighted. Why not just go with Windows? It has all of the same > attributes. You've said that KDE is only partially function under FreeBSD more than once now. Would you please elaborate on this? I use FreeBSD+KDE as my desktop and, short of a more complete Windows emulator, I haven't found anything I could do in Windows or Linux that I can't do in FreeBSD+KDE. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 13:43:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E4216A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp101.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp101.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [216.136.174.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1025443FBF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aradorlinux@yahoo.es) Received: from 46.red-81-42-133.pooles.rima-tde.net (HELO estel) (aradorlinux@81.42.133.46 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 20:43:42 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:43:46 +0200 From: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= To: Brett Glass Message-Id: <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:43:44 -0000 El Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:19:39 -0600 Brett Glass escribi= =F3: > You have "linux" in your e-mail address. Heh, there's a reason for that. diegocg@teleline.es is recognized as spam. But yes, I also use linux. Like a lot of people here= ... > So, you're suggesting that FreeBSD users put up with incompatibilities, > glitches, and an unethical licensing regime merely because they can > get something that KINDA works today? Yes. This is called "being realistic". Diego Calleja From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 14:02:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2A916A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B09B43FE9 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:02:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (adsl-81-129-234.asm.bellsouth.net [65.81.129.234]) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83L3opR079126; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:03:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:02:04 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Diego_Calleja_Garc=EDa?= From: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:02:07 -0000 >> So, you're suggesting that FreeBSD users put up with >> incompatibilities, >> glitches, and an unethical licensing regime merely because they can >> get something that KINDA works today? > > Yes. This is called "being realistic". > What exactly is realistic about that? There's nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel if only works perfectly on one type of car. It doesn't sound like it was a very good wheel in the first place if that's the case. Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 14:08:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8336816A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E89743FF5 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h83L7V9H016023; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:07:31 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h83L7Ufn016021; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:07:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:07:30 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Darren Pilgrim Message-ID: <20030903210730.GA16006@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Darren Pilgrim , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903132457.3602c35e.dmp@bitfreak.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:08:19 -0000 > You've said that KDE is only partially function under FreeBSD more than > once now. Would you please elaborate on this? He listed three alleged shortcomings, all of which are bogus. Kppp (internet dialer): it works fine with FreeBSD's bundled pppd (which is the same as the one in linux, though perhaps an older version). I should know, I used it for nearly two years before I got broadband (and occasionally after, too, most recently with 5.0-CURRENT (post-RELEASE) and KDE 3.1). If something broke in the last 2 months, a PR should be filed, but I doubt that's what happened. Printing: it works fine, as it should, the BSD lpr was default in most linux distributions till recently and CUPS, which is taking over, is part of FreeBSD's ports; KDE works with both but the KDE port in FreeBSD pulls in CUPS by default. Power management: yes there are problems, but that applies to linux too. In fact FreeBSD's ACPI support is probably a bit better than linux's, and KDE's laptop daemon can be configured with the exact acpi commands required to standby/suspend/hibernate the system. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 14:28:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C738616A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B08C443FAF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aradorlinux@yahoo.es) Received: from 46.red-81-42-133.pooles.rima-tde.net (HELO estel) (aradorlinux@81.42.133.46 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 21:28:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:28:29 +0200 From: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= To: Randi Harper Message-Id: <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> In-Reply-To: References: <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:28:40 -0000 El Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:02:04 -0400 Randi Harper esc= ribi=F3: > > Yes. This is called "being realistic". > > >=20 > What exactly is realistic about that? There's nothing wrong with=20 > reinventing the wheel if only works perfectly on one type of car. It=20 > doesn't sound like it was a very good wheel in the first place if=20 > that's the case. Well, it's "being realistic" in the sense "you can't rewrite a entire deskt= op software in two days". Gnome and KDE have been working for _years_ and they= 're very ahead of anything else you can find in the OSS world (GPL or BSD). Nothing stops you writing a different desktop platform; in the same way nobody stops you rewriting gcc. (But guess why nobody is rewriting gcc) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 14:34:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3522216A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3639643FA3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19ufH1-0007Fq-00; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:34:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= In-Reply-To: <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:34:49 -0000 On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Diego Calleja [ISO-8859-15] Garc=EDa wrote: > Nothing stops you writing a different desktop platform; in the same way > nobody stops you rewriting gcc. (But guess why nobody is rewriting gcc) gcc is being rewritten in a BSD-type license. In fact, the tendra project was forked because some (one?) of the developers goal was to make a gcc clone. See: http://www.ten15.org/ http://www.tendra.org/ Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 15:13:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C9516A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp102.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [216.136.174.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C064F43FEC for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aradorlinux@yahoo.es) Received: from 46.red-81-42-133.pooles.rima-tde.net (HELO estel) (aradorlinux@81.42.133.46 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 22:13:05 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:13:17 +0200 From: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-Id: <20030904001317.5fd906f6.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> In-Reply-To: References: <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:13:08 -0000 El Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) "Jeremy C. Reed" escribi=F3: > In fact, the tendra project was forked because some (one?) of the > developers goal was to make a gcc clone. >=20 > See: > http://www.ten15.org/ > http://www.tendra.org/ I didn't know. What's the "status" of the project, ie: it can compile? It's cool to have available a second good compiler anyway. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 15:23:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752F416A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA6A43FF3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19ug1u-0007Km-00; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:23:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:23:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= In-Reply-To: <20030904001317.5fd906f6.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:23:15 -0000 On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Diego Calleja [ISO-8859-15] Garc=EDa wrote: > > http://www.ten15.org/ > > http://www.tendra.org/ > > > I didn't know. What's the "status" of the project, ie: it can compile? Yes, definitely. With an old version, I was able to compile (and successfully use resulting binaries) some of FreeBSD userland. There are developers actively working on making sure it continues to improve under OpenBSD, NetBSD, and FreeBSD. See: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ports/lang/TenDRA/ http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/ports/lang/tendra/ (also in pksgrc-wip but is out-of-date version.) > It's cool to have available a second good compiler anyway. I agree. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 19:30:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBC116A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BCC43FBF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-159-39.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.159.39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2A2154F6; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:30:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id C72F720F2A; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:30:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:30:08 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Diego Calleja Garc?a Message-ID: <20030904023008.GE40413@over-yonder.net> References: <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Randi Harper Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 02:30:13 -0000 On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 11:28:29PM +0200 I heard the voice of Diego Calleja Garc?a, and lo! it spake thus: > El Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:02:04 -0400 Randi Harper escribi?: > > > > > What exactly is realistic about that? There's nothing wrong with > > reinventing the wheel if only works perfectly on one type of car. It > > doesn't sound like it was a very good wheel in the first place if > > that's the case. > > Well, it's "being realistic" in the sense "you can't rewrite a entire desktop > software in two days". Gnome and KDE have been working for _years_ and they're > very ahead of anything else you can find in the OSS world (GPL or BSD). Oh? I use ctwm. It works great. Far better than all that crap stuffed into Gnome or KDE. It does the two things a window manager is supposed to do; manage my windows, and stay the hell outta my way. And it's not GPL'd. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 19:41:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC02116A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0A643FDF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12115; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:41:02 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:41:00 -0600 To: Darren Pilgrim From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903132457.3602c35e.dmp@bitfreak.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: Diego Calleja García cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 02:41:17 -0000 At 02:24 PM 9/3/2003, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >You've said that KDE is only partially function under FreeBSD more than >once now. Would you please elaborate on this? I use FreeBSD+KDE as my >desktop and, short of a more complete Windows emulator, I haven't found >anything I could do in Windows or Linux that I can't do in FreeBSD+KDE. Subsystems of KDE that are difficult if not impossible to use with FreeBSD include: * Printing (if you can get it to work at all, it's only via a dozen or so GPLed utilities that must be hand-configured and tweaked because FreeBSD is not Linux); * Audio (About all that seems to work on any FreeBSD machine I've ever tried is sound effects); * PPP (they use kernel PPP rather than FreeBSD's userland PPP); and * Power management (fails to work or crashes on every laptop I've tried it on). And these are only the ones I've either watched people butt heads with or given up trying to make 100% functional. Not to mention the fact, again, that the whole mess is GPLed, which means that it's basically the end of one's professional career as a programmer if one views and alters the source code. --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 19:42:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2444216A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B354F43F3F for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12130; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:41:49 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204120.0342e370@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:41:46 -0600 To: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 02:42:04 -0000 At 02:43 PM 9/3/2003, Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= wrote: >> So, you're suggesting that FreeBSD users put up with incompatibilities, >> glitches, and an unethical licensing regime merely because they can >> get something that KINDA works today? > >Yes. This is called "being realistic". This is called being lazy and shortsighted. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 19:46:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D742516A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD24443FA3 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12180; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:45:55 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:45:53 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Diego Calleja Garc?a From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030904023008.GE40413@over-yonder.net> References: <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 02:46:11 -0000 At 08:30 PM 9/3/2003, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >I use ctwm. It works great. Far better than all that crap stuffed into >Gnome or KDE. It does the two things a window manager is supposed to do; >manage my windows, and stay the hell outta my way. And it's not GPL'd. More information, please. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 3 19:59:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1DA16A4BF for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA3243FEC for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-159-39.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.159.39]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB73154F6; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:59:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id A038F20F2A; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:59:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:59:02 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030904025902.GF40413@over-yonder.net> References: <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Diego Calleja Garc?a cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 02:59:06 -0000 On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 08:45:53PM -0600 I heard the voice of Brett Glass, and lo! it spake thus: > At 08:30 PM 9/3/2003, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >I use ctwm. It works great. Far better than all that crap stuffed into > >Gnome or KDE. It does the two things a window manager is supposed to do; > >manage my windows, and stay the hell outta my way. And it's not GPL'd. > > More information, please. About which part? As a WM, it's just what you'd expect from the name; a derivative of twm, with the same flavor and some additional functionality. As to the license, it's rather like the MIT license crossed with a 3-clause (1/2/4) BSD license. I'm coming to the view that somebody needs to step back a bit, and try assembling a "desktop environment" perhaps a bit richer[0] than twm and fvwm and the like, though less cluttered[1] than KDE/Gnome, by assembling and slightly blending existing components, rather than building it all together. I think there's room to profitably experiment between the extremes. [0] See also "cluttered" [1] See also "richer" -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 00:39:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24A616A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A77D43FF5 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:39:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0e8.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.1.200] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uohi-00042U-00; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:38:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3F56EBBC.3B27CBE5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:37:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180103.0299aaa0@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> <3F55F253.9090305@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40eb13a6cb9061bb482230cee03e7b7dc93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 07:39:03 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Bill Moran wrote: > >>Nonsense. There are a number of companies that are making a go at it > >>with that model. Look at Adobe with the free Acrobat viewer. How > >>about MySQL for goodness sakes? Redhat may not be the richest company > >>in the world, but they're riding out a lousy economy. > > > > Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, > > and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard > > the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement > > practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the > > DMCA. > > See ... to me, that's kind of like saying that > because drunk drivers kill people, nobody should > be allowed to drive. > a) Yes the Adobe model is not exactly the same > what's being discussed, but it's a similar > approach. > b) Just because Adobe abused it, doesn't mean > it can't work. And it doesn't mean that the > abuse is necessary to make it work. This kind of begs the question of why you chose them as one of your examples of companies that were successfully balancing Free (a stretch in the first place, when we were talking about Open Source, not free-of-chare closed source) vs. commercial product distributions. > > Don't tell me you've forgotten the Skylarov case already. They > > "backed off", but claimed "our hands are tied", after triggering > > the events leading up to his arrest. It didn't matter if they > > paid lip-service after pulling the trigger: their bullet was > > already headed inexoriably towards their intended target, and it > > was in their best interests to paint the enforcers of their will > > as the bad guys, instead of themselves. > > I'm not familiar with that case, so I can't > discuss it with any intelligence. Do you feel > that Adobe's business model would have failed > if they had not taken the actions you despise? > I mean, that's the real question of relevence. Do I feel that their business model would have failed as a result of third parties being able to circumvent their protections on eBooks? Yes, I believe that their eBook business model would have failed. Do I feel that their larger market for Adobe Acrobat business model of giving away the reader to encourage the purchase of the Acrobat and Distiller products would have failed had they not vigorously defended their territory with as much lack of restraint as they have so far shown, and Open Source authoring tools became prevalent? Yes, I believe that business model would have failed, as well. In general, there is room for only one company per Open Source product per any given niche market, and the Open Source product will out-compete anything else in that market, and effectively drive its competition out of business. This is true because there is no way to amortize research and developement costs across a price that ranges from "free" to "cost of duplication", and not much above that. The costs of establishing a business to compete with an entrenched standard bearer for such a product, charging the same fee as the company you are trying to displace are inherently prohibitive: the entrenched standard bearer can afford to lower their margins to zero, which would not allow you to recoup your initial investment. Short of establishing a "consortium", as many of the Linux vendors attempted, and thereafter (effectively) engaging in price fixing, there's no such thing as "live and let live". The problem here is the same as the problem with the grey-box vendors in Computer Shopper, which operate at or below cost for the first little while "in order to establish market share, after which we can raise prices": it doesn't work, because there's always someone else willing to undercut you after you've left your "first little while" period, and they are entering theirs. > > "Software is all...", he said, making vigorous hand > > motions around and above his head, "...is all up > > here. I don't sell software. I sell manuals". [ ... ] > > I agree. Microsoft probably makes as much off > books and classes as they do selling software. > And, frankly, despite their whole market slant > of "easy to use", I find that their software is > actually _more_ compliated than other choices, > usually in such a way that it's obvious that it > was intentionally made so. > > On the other hand, I've found the MySQL docs to > be very well done, so I'm unsure how you're > applying this issue to them. They will adopt this model, or they will not succeed. Don't tell me otherwise, unless you have looked at their books, or they have made their books public "in the spirit of Open Source and full disclosure". > You have a lot to say about Redhat and GCC that's > well founded, but let me turn the tables on you, > because (to me) this is the meat of the whole > discussion. > > How, exactly, am I supposed to pay my bills? The same way everyone else does: you exchange your time for money. The rate of exchange is highly dependent on a lot of factors, but it generally comes down to the value of your time on the open market, and that is dependent on whether you can charge "what the market will bear", or whether the value of your time in the market is being artificially depressed by an external factor. If you are young and foolish, you trade four years of your youth which you will never be able to reclaim by pulling the handle of a slot machine, and hoping to hit a jackpot (read: go to work for an under-market wage and stock options at a startup). > How do you pay yours, Terry? > > I started my own business years ago because I > reached a point where I was simply unwilling > to continue working for people who were either > lying, cheating, blankety-blanks, or in control > of my job while being too stupid to ensure > any level of stability (which is terribly > upsetting, because I don't consider myself > all that smart, so trying to accept that the > person who ultimately decides if I'll have a > job next week is stupider than me is a bit > too much) I've done it various ways. For a short time in High School, when the only reason I and my three sisters had breakfast or lunch at all was because there was a government-granted breakfast program and a government-subsidized lunch program, I worked as an outbound-call telemarketer for The Police Benefits Association. When I got home from that, we generally had macaroni and cheese or on Fridays, "hamburger bean stuff": 1/2lb of hamburger mixed with a large-size can of pork-and-beans mixed with ketchup, with bread from the Hostess Bakery "day old" outlet store, where they sold the bread that had been taken back from the store shelves because it was on the wrong side of before its expiration date. You might say I've been strongly motivated in my life to avoid depending on other people for my next meal. > I don't want to make a gazillion dollars (OK, I > wouldn't mind) I just want to work in conditions > where I don't feel like I'm violating everything > I think is right. This is really interesting; however, I have to point out to you that by devaluing your work product from "something you write once and sell multiple times" to "something you write once as a work for hire, which is then subsequently given away by someone else for nominal copying costs" is not in line with your stated goal here. The problem with doing the latter is that you are effectively *guaranteeing* your position as a wage-slave, by turning all work you do -- all work available for you to do -- into works for hire. This includes integration of Open Source components into coherent products, which is one place I've made my wages. The difference is, I recognize that they are wages, and I'm aware of the long term consequences of second-order actions like this, and while they are bad, they are not as bad as first order actions. I'm not saying that you don't, in some ways, benefit society by doing this: society gets the benefit of your labor, and the difference in what you would have made vs. what you did make is in effect a contribution to society. But by the same token, you are not contributing to society by creating jobs for more people, or by increasing the number of times a dollar can be turned over in order to provide value to society. In general, Keynsian economics tells us that there is a multiplier of ~10 on a dollar that's turned over, and ~1.5 on every one that's held. You may not agree with Keynes theories; if not, pick a different economist, and I can argue from that perspective, instead. > And I believe if Adobe, and people like Adobe, > thought more like me, they could make their > business models work _without_ resorting to > Nazi shock troops. > > I suppose it's possible that I'm living in a > dream world. Adobe is a good case in this regard, because they are being marginalized by a monopolistic competitor, Microsoft. They are fighting tooth-and-nail in order to hold onto their existing market, while at the same time they are trying desperately to create new markets. The Skylarov case wasn't really about the DMCA, it was about Adobe defending its attempt at creating a new market, a market for eBook-readers -- both software, and hardware devices -- on which they expected to be able to collect transaction costs, in a transfer of wealth from the publishing industry to the software/hardware industry. They resorted to shock troops because they weren't as clever as they thought they were: if they had used a cryptographically stronger algorithm, the Skylarov case never would have happened, because his company never would have been able to circumvent the protection mechanism. But such an algorithm requires that you do things for which Adobe either does not have the infrastructure (per copy encryption and out-of-band key distribution) or the will (call the op code in Intel processors to enable the unique CPU ID, which is easy to reenable, to ensure unique ID numbers for eBook reader authorization). It's hard to get "the will" up for some things, if you can't prove to the satisfaction of the public that the authorization mechanism can't also be used to implement non-repudiation and/or authentication, as well... especially when we know it can. I actually look at the Adobe v. Skylarov matter as having been inevitable, as soon as they started reversing the eBook data format. And they did it (or so they claim) for all the right reasons: the ability to provide access to eBooks to visually imparied people, the ability to provide access to eBooks for people with non-Microsoft platforms to which Adobe has not discovered a way to recover their developement investment, were they to do the port themselves, etc.. But doing something for the right reasons, and doing the right thing, are two different things. The eBooks format isn't a standard, it's a distribution mechanism; distribution mechanisms must be, by their nature, closed things. The best way to accomplish the goals they *said* they wanted to accomplish -- to achieve their "right reasons" -- would have been to establish a real standard format, implement that, and throw it out under a commercially friendly license. Like it or not, what they *did* do, trying to break into Adobe's distribution chain at one of the end points, when the transaction was defined as needing to include *both* end points, was ruin things for everyone (you would have to be an idiot publisher to put out a first run Robert Ludlum, etc., book as an eBook now). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 01:01:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA89516A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1802743FF2 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0e8.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.1.200] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19up3P-0005TZ-00; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 01:01:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3F56F0F0.884D2C3C@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:59:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901203824.0337c920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901205127.0337b270@localhost> <3F553FBF.1010208@potentialtech.com> <3F55A19C.73A1614D@mindspring.com> <2xr82xlu07.82x@mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4d41893933d16bb6d5d29c60fede1973693caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 08:01:22 -0000 "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Adobe gives away only the viewer. They sell the creation tool, > > and they do not give away source code to the viewer. They guard > > the file format and third party tools via vigorous enforcement > > practices utilizing all tools at their disposal, including the > > DMCA. > > Please explain further. I thought that PDF was a sort of > PostScript-ng, with an unobfuscated (or even documented) file format. > I guess I formed that opinion based on the ability of Ghostscript to > print and view PDF files. Is it based on reverse engineering PDF > files? Do PDF files contain IP protection features? Does Adobe think > its developers and/or users copyright infringers under the DMCA? Yes, PDF files *do* contain IP protection features. These features are based on a (relatively) weak cryptographic key system, and an attributes section on the documents that is voluntarily enforced by a reader. In general, Acrobat Reader will voluntarily enforce these bits, even if the document isn't encrypted, but encryption is further protection, since an encryption-protected document can only be read by an encryption-enabled reader. There is also the ability to password-protect certain bits, as well. These bits control things like whether or not you can print the document, whether you can cut sections of the document to a clipboard, whether or not you can save or edit the document (the Adobe Acrobat writers participates in these protocols, as well), and so on. Setting these bits can be done by "Acrobat Distiller" (a printer driver that prints to PDF files) and by the full-on Adobe Acrobat product itself. Overall, this allows you to send a contract to someone, get it back via FAX with signatures, and know that it's the contract you sent them (as one example). To encryption-enable a reader is relatively trivial (there exist patches to xpdf to support this, but the xpdf authors no longer integrate them, nor do they make them available directly), and involves a shared secret known to both the writers and readers. Adobe developers are bound by a license; likewise users. In the license, you agree to certain terms, which include protecting the Adobe rights in the IP protection systems in the software, and to not reverse engineer them. Adobe has loosened up somewhat on the PDF format itself, but in so doing, they've lost some of their presentation guarantees that they used to be able to make. This loosening up is limited to generation of non-IP-protected content, and reading of such content (in fact, they have a cut-down "Adobe Distiller" called "Acrobat PDF Writer" that they make available for download from their web site, though they make it hard to find, and don't put it as the first thing on their downloads page). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 01:46:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B237216A4C2 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EFB43FFD for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:46:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc0e8.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.1.200] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uplH-0002fE-00; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 01:46:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3F56FB83.E3C8F67F@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 01:44:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diego Calleja =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa?= References: <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a46922bf4fd535c83b81121c6b40964a28667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Randi Harper Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 08:46:56 -0000 Diego Calleja Garc=EDa wrote: > El Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:02:04 -0400 Randi Harper = escribi=F3: > > What exactly is realistic about that? There's nothing wrong with > > reinventing the wheel if only works perfectly on one type of car. It > > doesn't sound like it was a very good wheel in the first place if > > that's the case. > = > Well, it's "being realistic" in the sense "you can't rewrite a entire d= esktop > software in two days". Gnome and KDE have been working for _years_ and = they're > very ahead of anything else you can find in the OSS world (GPL or BSD).= The first desktop I wrote took me two days. I used a product called "OIBuilder", and hacked up the "file" program code to make it into a library, and then I added a "type" column to the "/etc/magic" descriptions file that I then used to pick icons to use on the desktop (*my* ".doc" files displayed with an icon appropriate to their internal format, rather than with an icon picked on the basis of their file extension). I hardly think I'm unique in my ability to do this... 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 02:17:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37BE16A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D38D43FB1 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B887779531; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:17:11 +0200 (MEST) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 65B2296A93; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:17:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 9A96896A92; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:17:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 40C97B824; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:17:07 +0200 (CEST) To: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) References: <20030903173430.GA14686@online.fr> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 11:17:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gary W. Swearingen's message of "Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:04:37 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:17:14 -0000 underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > Typical PDF files are "open", but some PDF fils have "security" > features (eg, to prevent printing or copying). Sklyarov and his > employer got in trouble over some software that could break similar > security features of a different Adobe product. So PDF files which > use PDF security features are presumably covered by the DMCA too. I've had some experience with "locked" PDF files (online manuals which were marked as "unprintable" so as not to compete with the print version available in bookstores). I was not able to print them directly, but simply converting them to PS using Ghostscript worked fine, and there was no problem at all printing the resulting PS (except for the non-standard paper size). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 11:37:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914E416A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA71143F3F for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aradorlinux@yahoo.es) Received: from 113.red-81-42-134.pooles.rima-tde.net (HELO estel) (aradorlinux@81.42.134.113 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 18:37:39 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:36:34 +0200 From: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= To: Brett Glass Message-Id: <20030904203634.10e7c973.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: dmp@bitfreak.org cc: aradorlinux@yahoo.es cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:37:56 -0000 El Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:41:00 -0600 Brett Glass escribi= =F3: >=20 > Subsystems of KDE that are difficult if not impossible to use with FreeBS= D=20 > include: [snip] So you might want to join them and solve the issues (well, you don't like GPL so you won't; but I guess that those things need help from Freebsd people) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 13:01:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0111B16A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1C944005 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22340; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:01:09 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:01:04 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030904025902.GF40413@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: Diego Calleja Garc?a cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:01:19 -0000 At 08:59 PM 9/3/2003, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >As a WM, it's just what you'd expect from the name; a derivative of twm, >with the same flavor and some additional functionality. > >As to the license, it's rather like the MIT license crossed with a >3-clause (1/2/4) BSD license. Interesting. I tried downloading the tarball, but it doesn't compile; major errors during compilation. (Apparently, it wasn't designed to be compiled with GCC... yet another GPLed component that shouldn't be in FreeBSD.) --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 13:09:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D62216A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5350D43FE5 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:09:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22467; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:09:17 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904140756.029c26b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:09:12 -0600 To: Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030904203634.10e7c973.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: dmp@bitfreak.org cc: aradorlinux@yahoo.es cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:09:31 -0000 At 12:36 PM 9/4/2003, Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= wrote: >So you might want to join them and solve the issues (well, you don't >like GPL so you won't; No, my livelihood would be threatened by having read GPLed code, so I won't. You don't swallow a poison pill on purpose unless you're either suicidal or ignorant of the fact that the pill is there. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 13:49:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9755416A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10BD43FBF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h84KmH9H032136; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:48:17 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h84KmG1k032134; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:48:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:48:16 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030904204816.GA32127@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ports (was: Ugly Huge BSD Monster) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:49:03 -0000 > Interesting. I tried downloading the tarball, but it doesn't compile; cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/ctwm && make install clean or pkg_add -r ctwm Did you try to compile KDE from the raw tarball too? That would explain a lot about all those alleged incompatibilities with FreeBSD. -- Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 14:37:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B47E16A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9678243FAF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84LbBP2019686; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:37:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h84LbBIG019684; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:37:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h84LUPqi029500; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:30:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200309042130.h84LUPqi029500@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 14:09:12 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20030904140756.029c26b0@localhost> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:30:24 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:37:14 -0000 Brett Glass writes: > At 12:36 PM 9/4/2003, Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= wrote: > > >So you might want to join them and solve the issues (well, you don't > >like GPL so you won't; > > No, my livelihood would be threatened by having read GPLed code, so > I won't. You don't swallow a poison pill on purpose unless you're > either suicidal or ignorant of the fact that the pill is there. I am a professional programmer, and I do my programming in an environment that has plenty of GPL'ed code. I get to mess with GPL'ed source, use binaries compiled from GPL'ed source and we distribute some of this binary and source. We also distribute a commercial, source+object product that has very little open source. This product is compiled with GCC and its documentation is maintained partialy with open source tools and partially with commercial products. What is the threat to MY livelihood? (You may assume that the company that I work for is successful, that I earn a decent salary and that my job is not under threat. You may also assume that the company lawyers are paid to make damn sure that our cash flow is well protected legally, and from this you may deduce that we are a large and attractive target.) M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 19:54:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E585D16A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3C143FE3 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26710; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:54:40 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205124.038334c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:54:37 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030904204816.GA32127@online.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports (was: Ugly Huge BSD Monster) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:54:53 -0000 At 02:48 PM 9/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/ctwm && make install clean >or >pkg_add -r ctwm Using /stand/sysintall, I searched the FreeBSD packages for 4.8-RELEASE and did not find it (even in the "ALL" list). So, I brought in the tarball, which seemed to have a mechanism to configure the code for FreeBSD. But that mechanism did not work. >Did you try to compile KDE from the raw tarball too? No. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 20:02:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F88716A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463AF43FF5 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26821; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:02:23 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205452.03b38c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:02:19 -0600 To: Mark Murray From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200309042130.h84LUPqi029500@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:02:40 -0000 At 03:30 PM 9/4/2003, Mark Murray wrote: >I am a professional programmer, and I do my programming in an >environment that has plenty of GPL'ed code. I get to mess with >GPL'ed source, use binaries compiled from GPL'ed source and we >distribute some of this binary and source. We also distribute a >commercial, source+object product that has very little open source. >This product is compiled with GCC and its documentation is maintained >partialy with open source tools and partially with commercial >products. > >What is the threat to MY livelihood? If you view GPLed code, and then write something similar, you are open to claims that your work is derivative of the GPLed code and therefore must likewise be GPLed. Interestingly, the lawyer for the Open Source Initiative was one of the first people to make this point (though he made it with reference to Microsoft's "shared source" rather than GPLed code, because he is very anti-commercial and wouldn't mind if the GPL had the same damaging effect on commercial programmers). He noted that, as in the famous George Harrison case involving the song "My Sweet Lord," the accuser does not need to claim that the copying was conscious. Merely having been exposed to the original is enough. See his paper at http://www.rosenlaw.com/html/GL8.pdf for more. So, yes, if you have read GPLed code, you are at serious risk. At any time, the FSF could claim that your work was derivative and had to be given away for free. You might prevail in court, but doing so could be just as costly as losing the proceeds from your work. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 20:34:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0FFC16A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8759543F85 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 1569 invoked by uid 1002); 5 Sep 2003 03:34:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:34:17 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030905033417.GA1374@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205124.038334c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205452.03b38c40@localhost> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 03:34:21 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > If you view GPLed code, and then write something similar, you are > open to claims that your work is derivative of the GPLed code and > therefore must likewise be GPLed. You are open to the same sort of claims if you view closed-source code (under, say, an NDA, or in a book where the authors have not relinquished copyright for the code). However, with the GPL, the FSF or whoever owns the copyrights will be satisfied if you remove the offending code fragments: in fact if they are small innocuous-looking chunks nobody's likely to pursue you. (If it's a large and critical chunk of code, of course, you deserve what you get for copying it.) A commercial company won't let you get away so easily, even if the evidence for infringement is extremely dubious: witness SCO's absurd "evidence" in the recent slides that got picked apart by Greg Lehey and others. A musical melody is very different from a detailed code fragment; it is more akin to an algorithm, which one can believably claim to have copied by accident. A code fragment is more akin to the actual detailed recording or orchestration of the tune, which cannot be copied unwittingly or unconsciously. In the musical world, both the tune and the recording are subject to copyright (typically by different people), but in the programming world, algorithms are not subject to copyright. That said, we live in a litigious world, and if some nasty person really wants to sue you on flippant copyright or patent violation or other grounds (like SCO), you must have deep pockets (like IBM). Of all organisations in the world, be assured that the FSF is the least likely to sue you for anything less than brazen cut-and-pasting of entire programs, despite your personal vendetta against them. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 4 23:49:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BE216A4BF for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F25843F3F for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h856n8P2097133; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:49:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h856n8wR097132; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:49:08 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h856kTqi034034; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:46:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200309050646.h856kTqi034034@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:02:19 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205452.03b38c40@localhost> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 07:46:29 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 06:49:11 -0000 Brett Glass writes: > So, yes, if you have read GPLed code, you are at serious risk. At any > time, the FSF could claim that your work was derivative and had to be > given away for free. You might prevail in court, but doing so could be > just as costly as losing the proceeds from your work. Is that the extent of the 'risk'? Pure supposition? I'll start worrying when there is an enforceable precedent in my area. I'm more worried about the risk of losing concentration while driving, and hurting someone as a consequence. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 00:51:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C9616A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A887D43FE0 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjg5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.5] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vBNU-0006gZ-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:51:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3F584048.37AFC9A6@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:50:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diego Calleja =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa?= References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <20030904203634.10e7c973.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47e928021c100902ee495a43c0e5d66942601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dmp@bitfreak.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 07:51:50 -0000 Diego Calleja Garc=EDa wrote: > El Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:41:00 -0600 Brett Glass escri= bi=F3: > > Subsystems of KDE that are difficult if not impossible to use with Fr= eeBSD > > include: > = > [snip] > = > So you might want to join them and solve the issues (well, you don't > like GPL so you won't; but I guess that those things need help > from Freebsd people) Actually, if you ask Amancio Hasty, you will discover that there are at least a few projects that have participants that go out of their way to intentionally break the code so that it will not run on non-Linux systems by default. Amancio rode herd on a number of these projects to ensure that FreeBSD compatability was maintained, but without an established position in the project, it's really difficult to guard against this sort of thing being done by people who are already well established. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 00:56:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95FE216A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC35D43FF3 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjg5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.5] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vBSa-0006sl-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:56:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3F584183.BC4FE542@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:55:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904140756.029c26b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47e928021c100902e6666cd3f7de0cd533ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Diego Calleja =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa?= cc: dmp@bitfreak.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 07:56:55 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:36 PM 9/4/2003, Diego Calleja =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Garc=EDa?= wrote: > >So you might want to join them and solve the issues (well, you don't > >like GPL so you won't; > > No, my livelihood would be threatened by having read GPLed code, so > I won't. You don't swallow a poison pill on purpose unless you're > either suicidal or ignorant of the fact that the pill is there. Would that be a poison blue pill, or a poison red pill? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 01:03:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5130D16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC23543F3F for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:03:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjg5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.5] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vBZC-00079h-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:03:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3F58431A.9672EF50@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:02:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030904204816.GA32127@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e88ab572fe859e01fe45e3a7f9bc6b1c667c3043c0873f7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports (was: Ugly Huge BSD Monster) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:03:45 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Interesting. I tried downloading the tarball, but it doesn't compile; > > cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/ctwm && make install clean > or > pkg_add -r ctwm > > Did you try to compile KDE from the raw tarball too? That would > explain a lot about all those alleged incompatibilities with FreeBSD. Actually, it would just broaden his criteria to "out of the box". I'm not sure that this is valid, if no one has pursued getting the ports patches donated back to the KDE project itself. If the ports patches make the code FreeBSD specific (i.e. they are nothing more than a crude hack), then I'd say he had a point, and that "someone who believes GPL'ed code should ``work out of the box on FreeBSD'' should step up and provide real patches to the KDE project". Saying that last either invalidates or reinforces his argument, depending on the nature of the patches FreeBSD applies. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 01:56:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 455CE16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0323944011 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjg5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.5] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vCIX-0006pQ-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:50:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3F584DFC.DAE597D7@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:49:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> <20030905033417.GA1374@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4af32e7608f5da881c1fe0541a3c7dd8c93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:56:00 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > If you view GPLed code, and then write something similar, you are > > open to claims that your work is derivative of the GPLed code and > > therefore must likewise be GPLed. This is what I thought he was aiming at... > You are open to the same sort of claims if you view closed-source code > (under, say, an NDA, or in a book where the authors have not > relinquished copyright for the code). The answer to this is "don't look at code not under an acceptable commercial-use friendly public license". > However, with the GPL, the FSF or whoever owns the copyrights will be > satisfied if you remove the offending code fragments: in fact if they > are small innocuous-looking chunks nobody's likely to pursue you. So, for example, if SCO or IBM owned the copyright... you'd be safe, right? 8-) 8-). > That said, we live in a litigious world, and if some nasty person really > wants to sue you on flippant copyright or patent violation or other > grounds (like SCO), you must have deep pockets (like IBM). Of all > organisations in the world, be assured that the FSF is the least likely > to sue you for anything less than brazen cut-and-pasting of entire > programs, despite your personal vendetta against them. What about if the GPL'ed code came from SCO or IBM, granting that SCO is litigious, and IBM has deep pockets? -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 01:58:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CFF16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273F843FBD for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfjg5.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.206.5] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vCQc-0006Dm-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:58:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3F584FE9.D324DDFE@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:57:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200309050646.h856kTqi034034@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4af32e7608f5da881bfdad0e9b1ae6db393caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:58:55 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: > Brett Glass writes: > > So, yes, if you have read GPLed code, you are at serious risk. At any > > time, the FSF could claim that your work was derivative and had to be > > given away for free. You might prevail in court, but doing so could be > > just as costly as losing the proceeds from your work. > > Is that the extent of the 'risk'? Pure supposition? > > I'll start worrying when there is an enforceable precedent in my > area. Spectators should realize that Brett is arguing from the point of view of U.S. Jurisdiction, while Mark is arguing from the point of view of South African jurisdiction. One of Mark's early involvements in FreeBSD came when FreeBSD cryptography developement moved to South Africa under Mark's ministrations to avoid US ITAR export restrictions and laws on munitions, effectively pretending that the U.S. laws didn't actually exist. So if you are outside U.S. Jurisdiction (either directly or by treaty), and don't care about being "Skylarov'ed" by the U.S. government should you ever visit the U.S., then Marks points are completely valid. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 03:17:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9F316A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 03:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE03C44008 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 03:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85AH6P2024307; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:17:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h85AH6pU024306; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:17:06 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h85AAYqi036282; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:10:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200309051010.h85AAYqi036282@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:57:13 PDT." <3F584FE9.D324DDFE@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:10:34 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:17:09 -0000 Terry Lambert writes: > Mark Murray wrote: > > Brett Glass writes: > > > So, yes, if you have read GPLed code, you are at serious risk. At any > > > time, the FSF could claim that your work was derivative and had to be > > > given away for free. You might prevail in court, but doing so could be > > > just as costly as losing the proceeds from your work. > > > > Is that the extent of the 'risk'? Pure supposition? > > > > I'll start worrying when there is an enforceable precedent in my > > area. > > Spectators should realize that Brett is arguing from the point > of view of U.S. Jurisdiction, while Mark is arguing from the point > of view of South African jurisdiction. I am arguing from the point of view of non-us jusdiction (what parts of it I understand). I am currently a .EU resident, and the company that I work for is .US based. A large difference between .US law and .EU law is that .EU law looks at the _intent_ of actions and contracts and actions more strongly than .US law does (this is changing). .US law looks at actual words more strongly than .EU does. The GPL is very careful to mention right in the beginning what its _intentions_ are, and thus places right in the "constitution" of the license an explanation of what it is trying to achieve. These words are: The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. This General Public License applies to most of the Free Software Foundation's software and to any other program whose authors commit to using it. (Some other Free Software Foundation software is covered by the GNU Library General Public License instead.) You can apply it to your programs, too. ... and it goes on to explain in more detail what this means. Notice use of words like "intended". I find it very hard to believe that a .US judge reading this won't take the _written_ _intent_ of the license heavily into account. (I'm not talking about some local hack of a judge who can hardly turn on a PC, I'm talking about a precedent-setting, smart appeal judge whose pronouncements are likely to make law, /a la'/ the Bernstein case.) Other rantings and ravings by the flourescent-pink-spectacles crowd are _not_ written into the license, and are thus no more relevant to it than this opininon of mine. > One of Mark's early involvements in FreeBSD came when FreeBSD > cryptography developement moved to South Africa under Mark's > ministrations to avoid US ITAR export restrictions and laws on > munitions, effectively pretending that the U.S. laws didn't > actually exist. Non-relevant tangent. > So if you are outside U.S. Jurisdiction (either directly or by > treaty), and don't care about being "Skylarov'ed" by the U.S. > government should you ever visit the U.S., then Marks points > are completely valid. I am effectively in .US juristiction, given that my employer has to comply with .US law. I may avoid any jail sentence, but I would count losing my job as being pretty bloody bad. As a .EU resident, I am at great (theoretical) risk of .US legal processes, because of strong cooperation pacts between .EU and .US. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 05:13:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FB416A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta1.adelphia.net (mta1.adelphia.net [68.168.78.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5261543FF2 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta1.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030905121510.LSZC26285.mta1.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:15:10 -0400 Message-ID: <3F587DE9.2020504@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:13:29 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205124.038334c0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205124.038334c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:13:31 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:48 PM 9/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >>cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/ctwm && make install clean >>or >>pkg_add -r ctwm > > Using /stand/sysintall, I searched the FreeBSD packages for > 4.8-RELEASE and did not find it (even in the "ALL" list). > So, I brought in the tarball, which seemed to have a mechanism > to configure the code for FreeBSD. But that mechanism did not > work. Well. This little exchange just let me know exactly how seriously I should take Brett Glass. I was able install ctwm in less than a minute. If Brett is unable to install a port, it's obvious that his agenda has nothing to do with reality, or that he's rambling on about things he knows nothing about. Just pointing this out for the benefit of anyone who might be mistakedly taking him seriously. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 05:21:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB3D16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.adelphia.net (mta2.adelphia.net [68.168.78.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076C043F85 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta2.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030905122200.QNVJ9596.mta2.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:22:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3F587FE6.6060107@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:21:58 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> <20030905033417.GA1374@online.fr> <3F584DFC.DAE597D7@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3F584DFC.DAE597D7@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:22:00 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: >>That said, we live in a litigious world, and if some nasty person really >>wants to sue you on flippant copyright or patent violation or other >>grounds (like SCO), you must have deep pockets (like IBM). Of all >>organisations in the world, be assured that the FSF is the least likely >>to sue you for anything less than brazen cut-and-pasting of entire >>programs, despite your personal vendetta against them. > > > What about if the GPL'ed code came from SCO or IBM, granting that > SCO is litigious, and IBM has deep pockets? My point here is that it's not the GPL that's causing the problems, it's the legal system, and the copanies that try to use it as a revenue stream. As long as the legal system allows people to file lawsuits as a method of generating income (as opposed to actually protecting themselves) there will always be the danger of _any_ license, copyright, or agreement of any kind creating a lawsuit. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 05:49:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C3D16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9060E43FEA for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Cn6P2016238; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:49:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h85Cn5gn016237; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:49:05 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h85Ckaqi037611; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:46:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200309051246.h85Ckaqi037611@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:21:58 EDT." <3F587FE6.6060107@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:46:36 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:49:10 -0000 Bill Moran writes: > My point here is that it's not the GPL that's causing the problems, it's > the legal system, and the copanies that try to use it as a revenue stream. > As long as the legal system allows people to file lawsuits as a method of > generating income (as opposed to actually protecting themselves) there will > always be the danger of _any_ license, copyright, or agreement of any kind > creating a lawsuit. Very strong agreement. I'm getting more than somewhat sick of folks ("one-product-wonders") who produce one Album/Idea/BetterMousetrap and spend the rest of their lives in lawsuits, hunting down violators (real and imagined) rather than producing more. Lawsuits are how you _defend_, not how you _conduct_. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 05:59:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CA616A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 530D344008 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 811 invoked by uid 1002); 5 Sep 2003 12:59:22 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:59:22 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030905125922.GA617@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20030904204816.GA32127@online.fr> <3F58431A.9672EF50@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F58431A.9672EF50@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports (was: Ugly Huge BSD Monster) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:59:28 -0000 Terry Lambert said on Sep 5, 2003 at 01:02:34: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Interesting. I tried downloading the tarball, but it doesn't compile; > > > > cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/ctwm && make install clean > > or > > pkg_add -r ctwm > > > > Did you try to compile KDE from the raw tarball too? That would > > explain a lot about all those alleged incompatibilities with FreeBSD. > > Actually, it would just broaden his criteria to "out of the box". Actually, nobody except distribution maintainers and true "bleeding edge" people compiles the raw tarballs on linux either. They use their distribution's packages (or, in gentoo's case, their ports like "portage"), and all distributions patch the stuff. Not all the patches are useful upstream; bugfixes from FreeBSD do make it, search for #ifdef __FreeBSD__ in the sources. I wanted to (indirectly) point out that the complaints of someone who can't find a port in the ports tree and/or isn't aware of the ports system should not be taken seriously. In the case of Brett and the raw ctwm tarball I suspect it's something trivially stupid like using the wrong kind of make or something. There don't seem to be any show-stopping patches in the ports tree. The ports system doesn't only supply patches, it also supplies the correct configure-make commands including specifying gmake/imake as necessary, very useful for people who can't or won't RTFM. In the case of KDE, I already pointed out exactly how stupid his complaints are. Bottom line: don't take his complaints seriously. Especially when he complains about GPL software ("ctwm won't compile under GCC"? Excuse me, what other compiler is widespread on free systems, and how many people use these weird window managers on proprietary Unix?) -- Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 06:08:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C16916A4C0 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C420043FE5 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 931 invoked by uid 1002); 5 Sep 2003 13:08:40 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:08:40 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030905130840.GC617@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Mark Murray References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205124.038334c0@localhost> <20030905033417.GA1374@online.fr> <3F584DFC.DAE597D7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F584DFC.DAE597D7@mindspring.com> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:08:49 -0000 Terry Lambert said on Sep 5, 2003 at 01:49:00: > > That said, we live in a litigious world, and if some nasty person really > > wants to sue you on flippant copyright or patent violation or other > > grounds (like SCO), you must have deep pockets (like IBM). Of all > > organisations in the world, be assured that the FSF is the least likely > > to sue you for anything less than brazen cut-and-pasting of entire > > programs, despite your personal vendetta against them. > > What about if the GPL'ed code came from SCO or IBM, granting that > SCO is litigious, and IBM has deep pockets? I don't think Brett Glass considers them evil, so he won't worry. In practice, if IBM really wanted to sue you, they could do it without bringing in the GPL: any code you write probably infringes a dozen of their patents. Look at their reply to SCO and the patents cited therein. (They also cite GPL infringement there but that's because it is indeed directly relevant.) Basically, as Mark says, there are more important things to worry about in life. -- Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 06:58:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6E316A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.adelphia.net (mta7.adelphia.net [68.168.78.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C9243FE1 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:58:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta7.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030905135811.SZUS11719.mta7.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:58:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3F589671.1010404@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:58:09 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200309051246.h85Ckaqi037611@grimreaper.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200309051246.h85Ckaqi037611@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:58:11 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > >>My point here is that it's not the GPL that's causing the problems, it's >>the legal system, and the copanies that try to use it as a revenue stream. >>As long as the legal system allows people to file lawsuits as a method of >>generating income (as opposed to actually protecting themselves) there will >>always be the danger of _any_ license, copyright, or agreement of any kind >>creating a lawsuit. > > Very strong agreement. > > I'm getting more than somewhat sick of folks ("one-product-wonders") > who produce one Album/Idea/BetterMousetrap and spend the rest of > their lives in lawsuits, hunting down violators (real and imagined) > rather than producing more. > > Lawsuits are how you _defend_, not how you _conduct_. The crux of the problem, however, is where the fine line between defend and conduct lie. If I write a program that does something totally unique (hard to imagine in this day and age, but bear with me) and market it. Then somone else makes a program that does the exact same thing (although, written from scratch), have they violated my rights? Should I defend myself? In my opinion, no. They're allowed to write competing software. If I write this program, and someone reverse engineers part or all of my code (or steals the source, etc) and markets that, should I defend? In my opinion, yes. In that case, they are stealing my work, not my ideas. Altough other people would consider me wrong for my opinion on the second circumstance. Right or wrong, these differences of opinion are the basis for this whole argument and many others that are relevent to our profession. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 07:39:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D3916A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474FC4400B for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Ed4P2046721; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:39:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h85Ed4ZO046720; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:39:04 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h85EZ9qi038471; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:35:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200309051435.h85EZ9qi038471@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:58:09 EDT." <3F589671.1010404@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:35:09 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 14:39:08 -0000 Bill Moran writes: > > Lawsuits are how you _defend_, not how you _conduct_. > > The crux of the problem, however, is where the fine line between defend > and conduct lie. Sure :-). I am well prepared to concede that there is a rich field of Grey Area(tm) to play in. > If I write a program that does something totally unique (hard to imagine > in this day and age, but bear with me) and market it. Then somone else > makes a program that does the exact same thing (although, written from > scratch), have they violated my rights? Should I defend myself? Legally, if you have patented your idea/code, then the priveliges granted to you (others may call those "rights" ;-) ) would suggest you have a defendable case. > In my opinion, no. They're allowed to write competing software. In the absence of a patent, sure. > If I write this program, and someone reverse engineers part or all of > my code (or steals the source, etc) and markets that, should I defend? > In my opinion, yes. In that case, they are stealing my work, not my > ideas. DMCA. If I reverse engineer your work, and then write _completeley_new_ and better code to do the same thing, where are we? If I take apart your mousetrap to see what oil you use on the hinges, where are we? If I do chemical analysis of your mousetrap's spring to improve the spring in my gronkulators, where are we? > Altough other people would consider me wrong for my opinion on the second > circumstance. Right or wrong, these differences of opinion are the > basis for this whole argument and many others that are relevent to our > profession. Agreed. Where abominations like DMCA, and lesser abominations like software patents fail is where liars^Wlawyers make their livings, and where disreputable "inventors" grovel in their shite for easy money. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 08:18:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3B516A4C0 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A3543F93 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:18:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19vIM9-0002dn-00 for ; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:18:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sea.gmane.org ([80.91.224.252]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19vIM8-0002db-00 for ; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:18:36 +0200 Received: from news by sea.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19vILf-0004QT-00 for ; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:18:07 +0200 From: MC Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:18:06 +0200 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 19 Message-ID: <868yp32rip.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903224346.4bbbf208.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <20030903232829.732e37d5.aradorlinux@yahoo.es> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903204523.03656720@localhost> <20030904025902.GF40413@over-yonder.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:sJYnJZInha8YOFuR2NELVEKSVk4= Sender: news Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:18:13 -0000 Brett Glass writes: > Interesting. I tried downloading the tarball, but it doesn't compile; > major errors during compilation. What version did you download? What kind of errors do you get? Please tell and I'll help if I can. I'm running ctwm 3.6 with a few changes of my own under FreeBSD right now and I've been doing so for a long time. You will find most ctwm stuff at Richard Levitte's place http://ctwm.free.lp.se/ nowadays. -- MC, Temple of the Moby Hack - http://hack.org/~mc/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 08:40:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4613A16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6699F44013 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030905154015.XNU8933.mta9.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:40:15 -0400 Message-ID: <3F58AE5D.9030109@potentialtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 11:40:13 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200309051435.h85EZ9qi038471@grimreaper.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200309051435.h85EZ9qi038471@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:40:18 -0000 Mark Murray wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > >>>Lawsuits are how you _defend_, not how you _conduct_. >> >>The crux of the problem, however, is where the fine line between defend >>and conduct lie. > > Sure :-). I am well prepared to concede that there is a rich field > of Grey Area(tm) to play in. > >>If I write a program that does something totally unique (hard to imagine >>in this day and age, but bear with me) and market it. Then somone else >>makes a program that does the exact same thing (although, written from >>scratch), have they violated my rights? Should I defend myself? > > Legally, if you have patented your idea/code, then the priveliges > granted to you (others may call those "rights" ;-) ) would suggest you > have a defendable case. > >>In my opinion, no. They're allowed to write competing software. > > In the absence of a patent, sure. Well. There may be grey areas withing this one example. But I don't consider the law the Book of Rightness. Just because I have a legal right to sue someone doesn't mean I'm going to. And, in most cases I can imagine that fall into this category, I'm not likely to sue - because of my own personal beliefs. The one exception would be if I created something, didn't bother to get a patent on it, and then someone else patented the idea. Before they could ever get around to filing a patent lawsuit, I would file some sort of suit claiming they had obtained the patent illegally. It's possibly that I would lose such a case, and that I'd be much better off just filing patents and not bothering to enforce them when I don't feel it's the right thing to do. >>If I write this program, and someone reverse engineers part or all of >>my code (or steals the source, etc) and markets that, should I defend? >>In my opinion, yes. In that case, they are stealing my work, not my >>ideas. > > DMCA. > > If I reverse engineer your work, and then write _completeley_new_ > and better code to do the same thing, where are we? > > If I take apart your mousetrap to see what oil you use on the hinges, > where are we? > > If I do chemical analysis of your mousetrap's spring to improve the > spring in my gronkulators, where are we? See ... these are the situations that freak me out ... mainly because some of these I'm not sure if I feel I would be right in filing a case or not. If I'm gonna do something, I prefer to feel that it's the right thing to do. >>Altough other people would consider me wrong for my opinion on the second >>circumstance. Right or wrong, these differences of opinion are the >>basis for this whole argument and many others that are relevent to our >>profession. > > Agreed. Where abominations like DMCA, and lesser abominations like > software patents fail is where liars^Wlawyers make their livings, > and where disreputable "inventors" grovel in their shite for easy > money. What a world. How much easier it would be if everyone just tried to be honest and get along with others. Alas, it's not to be. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 08:51:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430D616A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBFD43FE0 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02935; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:51:38 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030905094945.02cbe8b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:51:32 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20030905033417.GA1374@online.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205452.03b38c40@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904135920.03aab5e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904205124.038334c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:51:51 -0000 At 09:34 PM 9/4/2003, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> If you view GPLed code, and then write something similar, you are >> open to claims that your work is derivative of the GPLed code and >> therefore must likewise be GPLed. > >You are open to the same sort of claims if you view closed-source code >(under, say, an NDA, or in a book where the authors have not >relinquished copyright for the code). Yes, you are. >However, with the GPL, the FSF or whoever owns the copyrights will be >satisfied if you remove the offending code fragments: Not true. If the GPL is enforceable (which I believe it's not, but I do not have the money for a test case), they've gotcha. Remember, the GPL says that it's permanent and irrevocable. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 08:54:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FA416A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BB743F3F for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02959; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:54:48 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030905095147.02cbbd90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:54:42 -0600 To: Mark Murray From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200309050646.h856kTqi034034@grimreaper.grondar.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:54:55 -0000 At 12:46 AM 9/5/2003, Mark Murray wrote: >Is that the extent of the 'risk'? Pure supposition? No; solid case law. Harrison was only the most famous case that was won on this principle. >I'll start worrying when there is an enforceable precedent in my >area. Better watch out in that case, since the Harrison case involved a British defendant and an American plaintiff. So, the precedent is already international. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 08:57:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898C216A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6453843F3F for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02988; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:56:43 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030905095550.02b96df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:56:36 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3F584183.BC4FE542@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030902180402.028e2380@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903131429.03609c60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030903203619.0342b210@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030904140756.029c26b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: sub_0@netcabo.pt cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Diego Calleja García cc: dmp@bitfreak.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:57:04 -0000 At 01:55 AM 9/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >Would that be a poison blue pill, or a poison red pill? Actually, it's more reminiscent of the pill in the movie "Total Recall" than of the ones in the movie "The Matrix." --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 08:59:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF1E16A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34C843FE5 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03045; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:59:14 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030905095800.02cbb870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:59:08 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , Mark Murray From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3F584FE9.D324DDFE@mindspring.com> References: <200309050646.h856kTqi034034@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:59:24 -0000 At 02:57 AM 9/5/2003, Terry Lambert wrote: >So if you are outside U.S. Jurisdiction (either directly or by >treaty), and don't care about being "Skylarov'ed" by the U.S. >government should you ever visit the U.S., then Marks points >are completely valid. I'm not so sure. Does his company have assets in the US? Do any business in the US? What about the new WIPO rules (which weren't in effect at the time of the Harrison case) which now DO allow international enforcement? --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 09:22:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E2716A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE9443FE9 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h85GM39H003557; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:22:03 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h85GLxri003555; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:21:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:21:59 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030905162159.GA3542@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030905095147.02cbbd90@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:22:53 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > >Is that the extent of the 'risk'? Pure supposition? > > No; solid case law. Harrison was only the most famous case > that was won on this principle. See my earlier mail. It is believable that a melody was copied by accident; it is believable that an algorithm was copied by unconscious memory. A detailed orchestration, or an entire routine, are a different matter. You don't copy those by accident. In music, melodies are protected by copyright, so Harrison was still liable. In programming, algorithms are not protected by copyright; an accuser would have to show that you actually cut-and-pasted their code, not just read their algorithm and reimplemented it (even if you did that consciously and intentionally). There are still issues like "there are only so many ways to write a for loop" and "you could have copied it and obfuscated it". These things are very hard to prove, but if you want to worry about such accusations, you'd better worry about commercial non-GPL companies first. They need not prove, either, that you ever saw their code: they would claim that the similarity is sufficient that you could not have written your code independently without seeing theirs. In addition, they could claim that it infringes their patents: algorithms cannot be copyrighted, but they can be patented in the US. At least the GPL protects you from patent claims (from the code's author, anyway: third-party patent claims are, as always, possible). If you're worried about such lawsuits, the GPL is the last thing you should worry about: it has never gone to court yet, while much software on your desktop is almost surely infringing IBM's (the XOR cursor?) or Apple's (truetype hinting?) or Microsoft's patents as you read this. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 11:48:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04A216A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74B743FBF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:48:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Im9P2007043; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:48:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)h85Im8BP007042; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:48:08 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])h85Ifpqi040719; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:41:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200309051841.h85Ifpqi040719@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:54:42 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20030905095147.02cbbd90@localhost> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:41:51 +0100 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FROM_NO_LOWER,IN_REP_TO, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:48:11 -0000 Brett Glass writes: > >I'll start worrying when there is an enforceable precedent in my > >area. > > Better watch out in that case, since the Harrison case involved > a British defendant and an American plaintiff. So, the precedent > is already international. Aaah. Now that precedent scares me not, because in his case there was _substantial_ similarity between Plaintiff's tune and Defendant's tune. This similarity may be coincidental, but it is substantial, and US case law (the BSD vs USL case for example) has already provided a clarification of how far that might go in _code_. For code to be as substantially similar in a copyright-infringing way would take a clear, overt and actionable act, IMVHO. I still fail to see where _reading_, _modifying_ or _using_ GPL'ed code is dangerous, as long as one clearly bears normal copyright issues in mind. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 14:36:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928A916A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [216.152.64.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D607A4400F for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however ([206.171.168.138]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:33:23 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Brett Glass" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:36:01 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030905162159.GA3542@online.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: RE: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:36:34 -0000 > There are still issues like "there are only so many ways to write a > for loop" and "you could have copied it and obfuscated it". These > things are very hard to prove, but if you want to worry about such > accusations, you'd better worry about commercial non-GPL companies > first. They need not prove, either, that you ever saw their code: > they would claim that the similarity is sufficient that you could not > have written your code independently without seeing theirs. [snip] > - Rahul No. They must prove that you saw their code. If they cannot prove access, they cannot prove a copyright violation. (You cannot copy what you did not have access to.) People often misunderstand the Harrison case as showing that similarity is sufficient to prove access. But in the Harrison case, there was no dispute that Harrison had access to and in fact heard the work he was accused of copying. If you can cite any law or case law to the contrary, please do. (And if you have proprietary code, do *NOT* brag about how secure your systems are, it will come back to haunt you!) DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 5 17:01:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395B216A4BF for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelp.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB5C243FB1 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 801 invoked by uid 1002); 6 Sep 2003 00:01:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:01:43 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Message-ID: <20030906000143.GA620@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Mark Murray References: <20030905162159.GA3542@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:01:52 -0000 David Schwartz said on Sep 5, 2003 at 14:36:01: > > > There are still issues like "there are only so many ways to write a > > for loop" and "you could have copied it and obfuscated it". These > > things are very hard to prove, but if you want to worry about such > > accusations, you'd better worry about commercial non-GPL companies > > first. They need not prove, either, that you ever saw their code: > > they would claim that the similarity is sufficient that you could not > > have written your code independently without seeing theirs. > [snip] > > - Rahul > > No. They must prove that you saw their code. If they cannot prove access, > they cannot prove a copyright violation. (You cannot copy what you did not > have access to.) Well I was talking of cases where you had possible access to the code. I'm not sure about software precedents, I admit, but someone who plagiarises a book can be sued by the original author simply on the basis of similarity -- if the original work is published and available, that's sufficient; it's not necessary to prove that you actually bought it and read it, it's sufficient that you had access to it if you wanted it. In practice, most plagiarism cases are either rather flimsy, or settled out of court before a trial. Here's a nice article: http://slate.msn.com/id/1785/ In the software world, the source code is usually not widely available outside the originating company, but I was referring to cases where it is: eg, under Sun's or Microsoft's not-quite-open-source licences, or code published in books but with a restrictive copyright; or cases where the people suing you can prove you had it, eg an NDA. - Rahul