From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 01:00:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0695A16A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4F743FE0 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:00:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (s1.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.201])h8780eOe075275 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-X-Sender: jcw@s1.stradamotorsports.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 08:00:44 -0000 I would like to cast my vote for returning to the old release method. Please don't call the next major version of FreeBSD a release until it is truly ready to be a release. (I am sure this battle has been fought before my very abrieviated comment was penned. I just wanted to be heard, for what it's worth.) Thanks, Jason C. Wells A lowly user wearing nomex who's mail hasn't graced a freebsd list in the passing of many moons. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 05:25:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3809716A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 05:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB2A43FDD for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 05:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19vyef-000E8f-Vl for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:28:34 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5B239A.3020400@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:24:58 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 12:25:09 -0000 Jason C. Wells wrote: >I would like to cast my vote for returning to the old release method. >Please don't call the next major version of FreeBSD a release until it is >truly ready to be a release. > For what it's worth, I and a large number of other people I know would agree. The 5.x releases so far have been VERY badly received with the people I've spoken to and it's not done FBSD any favours. I seem to remember something similar happening when we were all running 3.x boxes and 4.x started getting releases, but nothing quite like this. I hear a bikeshed rolling down the hill... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 06:05:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0085F16A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 06:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DEF043FEC for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 06:05:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D472A3D28; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:05:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Paul Robinson , "Jason C. Wells" Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 09:07:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F5AF539.30300.EE6367F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F5B239A.3020400@iconoplex.co.uk> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:05:11 -0000 On 7 Sep 2003 at 13:24, Paul Robinson wrote: > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >I would like to cast my vote for returning to the old release method. > >Please don't call the next major version of FreeBSD a release until it is > >truly ready to be a release. > > For what it's worth, I and a large number of other people I know would > agree. The 5.x releases so far have been VERY badly received with the > people I've spoken to and it's not done FBSD any favours. The instructions and precautions for early adoptors are clearly defined. 5.* is not ready for production. That is widely known. 5.* is still -current, not -stable. Those running -current need to be aware of the issues. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 06:38:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF7816A4DC for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 06:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.adelphia.net (mta6.adelphia.net [68.168.78.190]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC22C43FF7 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 06:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta6.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030907133811.CRAY11843.mta6.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:38:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3F5B34C2.7070207@potentialtech.com> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 09:38:10 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3F5AF539.30300.EE6367F@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F5AF539.30300.EE6367F@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:38:12 -0000 Dan Langille wrote: > On 7 Sep 2003 at 13:24, Paul Robinson wrote: > >>Jason C. Wells wrote: >> >>>I would like to cast my vote for returning to the old release method. >>>Please don't call the next major version of FreeBSD a release until it is >>>truly ready to be a release. >> >>For what it's worth, I and a large number of other people I know would >>agree. The 5.x releases so far have been VERY badly received with the >>people I've spoken to and it's not done FBSD any favours. > > The instructions and precautions for early adoptors are clearly > defined. 5.* is not ready for production. That is widely known. > 5.* is still -current, not -stable. > > Those running -current need to be aware of the issues. This is immaterial. What we're talking about here is marketing. Marketing has nothing to do with reality. If it did, Microsoft's commercials wouldn't show people flying around, they'd show them forking out extra money for anti-virus software. Fact is, I agree with both sides of the argument. The easy access to 5.x-RELEASE has caused me to start using it in a test scenerio when I would not have if a -RELEASE had not been rolled, therefore, it's useful. On the flip side, I have a client who I'm putting a server together for, who wanted 5 on it, and FreeBSDSystems is foolishly shipping 5 installed by default on their new servers. Obviously, this _could_ become a bikeshed, but I have something I feel is the obvious answer: Next time, let's call it 6.0-BETA. This serves both purposes. A CD can be cut from the snapshot to increase the number of people testing, yet (even to PHBs) the term BETA means something that will cause them to fall back to (then) 5.X. Honestly, I can't imagine any reason why this would not be an improvement. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 07:59:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F5A16A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.knology.net (smtp1.knology.net [24.214.63.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B70643FEA for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 22095 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2003 14:59:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 7 Sep 2003 14:59:50 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:59:43 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <3F5AF539.30300.EE6367F@localhost> <3F5B34C2.7070207@potentialtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3F5B34C2.7070207@potentialtech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309070959.43759.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 14:59:52 -0000 On Sunday 07 September 2003 08:38 am, Bill Moran wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > Those running -current need to be aware of the issues. > > This is immaterial. What we're talking about here is marketing. > Marketing has nothing to do with reality. If it did, Microsoft's > commercials wouldn't show people flying around, they'd show them > forking out extra money for anti-virus software. [...] > Next time, let's call it 6.0-BETA. This serves both purposes. A CD > can be cut from the snapshot to increase the number of people > testing, yet (even to PHBs) the term BETA means something that will > cause them to fall back to (then) 5.X. Or call it FreeBSD-5.2-BETA-RELEASE. "Beta" is far better understood than "current" (not that "current" part of the name currently.) Consumers have a fixation with version numbers. Clearly the highest number available is best! Has most bug fixes! Is New And Improved! One of my early memories of Linux was at a hamfest where two were standing at a CDROM table trying to decide which was the "best" Linux distro. Ultimately they were comparing bundled package version numbers and finally one won for having gcc 0.01 version higher than the other. I put 5.0-RELEASE on a noncritical machine. Wasn't happy that it wouldn't install over 4.7. Didn't like any of my prior partitions or filesystems. Later put 5.1-RELEASE on this system. If it croaks I'll be forced to do what I really ought to do anyhow, move the Mac dual G4-867 in its place. My biggest problems have been with ports. Also noticed bsdlabel/disklabel didn't work. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 08:11:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4959816A4C0 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0A343FCB for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from lpthe.jussieu.fr (lns-th2-5f-81-56-230-103.adsl.proxad.net [81.56.230.103]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51958C21A for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:11:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 17:11:37 +0200 From: Michel Talon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: fr, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:11:40 -0000 > For what it's worth, I and a large number of other people I know would > agree. The 5.x releases so far have been VERY badly received with the > people I've spoken to and it's not done FBSD any favours. I seem to > remember something similar happening when we were all running 3.x > >boxes and 4.x started getting releases, but nothing quite like this. Anyways i am one for whom FreeBSD 5.1 works quite well, and i cannot say the same of the latest 4.* series. On my laptop which runs 4.8 things have degraded with respect to what it was around 4.4. After suspend sound doesn't work any more, pcmcia cards are not properly reset, and i am now seeing ATA DMA errors and downgrading to PIO, a thing that never occurred up to 4.7 Why am i ranting about that? i think that the FreeBSD developers work full time on the 5.* series, and that it has diverged so much from the 4.* series that they commit errors when backporting stuff from Current. You have only to look at the recent PAE merging fiasco to attest of that. The 5.* series began several years ago, and we cannot reasonably ask that the developers remember what is in the 4.* code. The net result is that both the 4.* and the 5.* series are presently more unstable than stable. In my opinion, the 4.* series should not have been maintained so long (except for security fixes), it stresses too much the available developer workforce. Choices have been made for the 5.* series, good or bad, this is not the point, it is urgent to concentrate on that, and only that. Otherwise you can be assured that Linux will draw circles around what will remain of FreeBSD. Matt Dillon disagreeed with these choices and is developing his own version starting from FreeBSD-4. The future will show what were the good choices, but at present, concentrating on 4.* is suicide. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 09:08:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C25216A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BC943FCB for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilson32@kc.rr.com) Received: from webkl7bcj7ou3q (CPE-65-28-67-59.kc.rr.com [65.28.67.59]) h87G8DsQ022985 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:08:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002001c3755a$3b7537b0$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> From: "Derik Wilson" To: References: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:08:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:08:19 -0000 Just to interject with my newb wisdom so you get a perspective of someone who is brand new to freeBSD. I bought freeBSD off the shelf so that I could get the BIG flashy book that did absolutely no good. I installed it, version 4.7 I think. I started it up. oops! xwindows isn't working. I tried several video configs (geForce 4 wasn't on the list). I finally got it to work with geforce 3 drivers but the sound did not work at all and took me 3 days to realize that it wasn't going to work. Finally I got SMART and downloaded 5.1. Burned my CD and then rebooted. From the time I rebooted to the time I was listening to my music CD's while learning about crystal space in high res on the net, I think it was a total elapsed time of 45 minutes (only because I had to get all of the CVS updates). In short, to hell with 4.x LONG LIVE 5.x !!!!! =) Take care fellas and keep us newbs alive! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Talon" To: Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 10:11 AM Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better > > For what it's worth, I and a large number of other people I know would > > agree. The 5.x releases so far have been VERY badly received with the > > people I've spoken to and it's not done FBSD any favours. I seem to > > remember something similar happening when we were all running 3.x > > >boxes and 4.x started getting releases, but nothing quite like this. > > > Anyways i am one for whom FreeBSD 5.1 works quite well, and i cannot say > the same of the latest 4.* series. On my laptop which runs 4.8 things > have degraded with respect to what it was around 4.4. After suspend > sound doesn't work any more, pcmcia cards are not properly reset, > and i am now seeing ATA DMA errors and downgrading to PIO, a thing > that never occurred up to 4.7 > > Why am i ranting about that? i think that the FreeBSD developers work > full time on the 5.* series, and that it has diverged so much from > the 4.* series that they commit errors when backporting stuff from > Current. You have only to look at the recent PAE merging fiasco to > attest of that. The 5.* series began several years ago, and we cannot > reasonably ask that the developers remember what is in the 4.* code. > The net result is that both the 4.* and the 5.* series are presently > more unstable than stable. In my opinion, the 4.* series should not > have been maintained so long (except for security fixes), it stresses > too much the available developer workforce. Choices have been made > for the 5.* series, good or bad, this is not the point, it is urgent > to concentrate on that, and only that. Otherwise you can be assured > that Linux will draw circles around what will remain of FreeBSD. > Matt Dillon disagreeed with these choices and is developing his own > version starting from FreeBSD-4. The future will show what were the > good choices, but at present, concentrating on 4.* is suicide. > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 10:28:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CC716A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (mail.uninterruptible.net [64.146.146.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1E143FF9 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:28:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-92.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.4.92]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC31A50021 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:28:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 06BA8335D; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:28:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F634C68 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:28:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:27:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <002001c3755a$3b7537b0$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 17:28:07 -0000 On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Derik Wilson wrote: > going to work. Finally I got SMART and downloaded 5.1. Burned my CD and > then rebooted. From the time I rebooted to the time I was listening to my > music CD's while learning about crystal space in high res on the net, I > think it was a total elapsed time of 45 minutes (only because I had to get > all of the CVS updates). > > In short, to hell with 4.x LONG LIVE 5.x !!!!! =) Take care fellas and > keep us newbs alive! These are both desktop scenarios, not server-type scenarios where real people get pulled out of bed at 3AM if something isn't working right. It doesn't matter if your desktop crashes, repeatedly in one day, to ruin your productivity -- but a server doing down ruins many people productivity and results in a real loss of money. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 11:10:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36E216A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8341B43FBF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (s1.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.201])h87IAoOe076328 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:10:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-X-Sender: jcw@s1.stradamotorsports.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200309070959.43759.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 18:10:54 -0000 On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, David Kelly wrote: > On Sunday 07 September 2003 08:38 am, Bill Moran wrote: > > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > Those running -current need to be aware of the issues. As they have always done. > > This is immaterial. What we're talking about here is marketing. > > Marketing has nothing to do with reality. If it did, Microsoft's > > commercials wouldn't show people flying around, they'd show them > > forking out extra money for anti-virus software. I agree that the spinning off of a release from -current before it was ready was a marketing ploy more than anything. > > Next time, let's call it 6.0-BETA. This serves both purposes. A CD > > can be cut from the snapshot to increase the number of people > > testing, yet (even to PHBs) the term BETA means something that will > > cause them to fall back to (then) 5.X. > > Or call it FreeBSD-5.2-BETA-RELEASE. "Beta" is far better understood > than "current" (not that "current" part of the name currently.) No, no, no! Don't call it anything. Just make the next major release 6.0 when -current is truly ready to be a release. I propose no big fancy ideas about calling strawberries oranges or anything else. Just go back to the old way. Anyone who wants to track -current source can do so as they have always done in the past. Anyone who wants to install a snapshot can do so as they have done in the past. Making some grandiose statement about early adopters was only necessary because we started calling developmental code a release. The tactic of releasing 5.X before it's time was to encourage more testing. Rather than releasing development code and making big warnings, just _recruit_ more testers. That is what was needed in accordance with the early adopter's guide. This is the most direct path to the desired outcome. Those who are inclined to test will test. Those who are not inclined to test (me, until I got the OpenAFS bug) will not. All who are paying attention to the warnings will understand that the distinction between 5.X-RELEASE and 5.X-CURRENT is slight. But those who do not fully understand the FreeBSD development model will see that 5.X-RELEASE is lesser software and will hold FreeBSD in low esteem. And what do we do to decide when 5.X is good enough? Wait until 5.2, 5.3, or maybe 5.4? Do we ask all our buddies what they think the incorporation point should be? We wait for the "OK. It's really a release this time." Bah! The old way was better. Later, Jason C. Wells From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 11:51:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51D416A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEED843FE9 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilson32@kc.rr.com) Received: from webkl7bcj7ou3q (CPE-65-28-67-59.kc.rr.com [65.28.67.59]) h87IpqsQ003384 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:51:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002201c37571$17cde6b0$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> From: "Derik Wilson" To: References: Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:51:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 18:51:57 -0000 Incorrect. This was not just a desktop. It is a web server. Actually a test web server. I was previously running apache, mySQL and PHP servers on a windows xp box and decided to see how freeBSD would run. Although it is not for production, only test, it is still important for it to stay running 24/7 for testing purposes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris Kirby" To: Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better > On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Derik Wilson wrote: > > going to work. Finally I got SMART and downloaded 5.1. Burned my CD and > > then rebooted. From the time I rebooted to the time I was listening to my > > music CD's while learning about crystal space in high res on the net, I > > think it was a total elapsed time of 45 minutes (only because I had to get > > all of the CVS updates). > > > > In short, to hell with 4.x LONG LIVE 5.x !!!!! =) Take care fellas and > > keep us newbs alive! > > These are both desktop scenarios, not server-type scenarios where real > people get pulled out of bed at 3AM if something isn't working right. > > It doesn't matter if your desktop crashes, repeatedly in one day, to ruin > your productivity -- but a server doing down ruins many people > productivity and results in a real loss of money. > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' > "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" > This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 12:38:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F0116A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B5543FEC for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from lpthe.jussieu.fr (lns-th2-5f-81-56-230-103.adsl.proxad.net [81.56.230.103]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A87C37A for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:38:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F5B8925.9090102@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:38:13 +0200 From: Michel Talon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: fr, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:38:16 -0000 > Incorrect. This was not just a desktop. It is a web server. In my case it is a squid server plus a caching name server running bind9. It runs 24h/day since the release of FreeBSD 5.1 and has not crashed a single time. Hence i conclude that FreeBSD 5.1 works well at least on some common hardware (i have an Abit KT7 mobo, with an Athlon). This machine previously runned FreeBSD 4, and was slightly faster then, but the difference is not enormous, and as i said, it is perfectly stable. On another machine (more powerful) i have Debian Linux running. It did not crash a single time either, but i can say that the VM system clearly runs more erratically on the Linux box that on the FreeBSD 5.1 box. Hence i have no objective reason to be particularly unhappy with this release. As i said also, i am very unhappy with FreeBSD 4.8 running on my laptop. My conclusion: FreeBSD 5.1 is a perfectly fine release, but may be disfunctional on some hardware, particularly due to the ACPI system. Each user has to test it on his own hardware to see if it works or not. If it does not work correctly, he may be happier with FreeBSD-4.8. Everybody wanting absolute stability is perfectly welcome to try NetBSD, OpenBSD and why not Linux, and discover by himself if he doesn't need to awake at 3 A.M. with one of these systems. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 18:44:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A052316A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE15843FEA for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:44:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003090801441801300k74mhe>; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:44:18 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h881iE4d062255; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:44:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h881i9Q2062254; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:44:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Michel Talon References: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 18:44:08 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> (Michel Talon's message of "Sun, 07 Sep 2003 17:11:37 +0200") Message-ID: <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 01:44:20 -0000 Michel Talon writes: > In my opinion, the 4.* series should not > have been maintained so long (except for security fixes), it stresses > too much the available developer workforce. So when should non-security 4.* work have stopped? When I started using FreeBSD, the 5.0 target was Nov'2001, IIRC, and it was supposed to have features than are not yet in 5-CURRENT. How long should 4.* users have to live with a moribund OS? I don't know, but the shorter the time, the less reason there is to stop MFCing. IMO, it's more important to protect FreeBSD's reputation for stability than to advance 5.*-STABLE by a few months by abandoning 4.* users in any obvious way. I'm not prepared to say what developers "should" have done except that they should have made better schedule estimates, something much easier said than done. I suspect that 5.0 & 5.1 should have had fewer new features, but I couldn't make a convincing case for it. I WILL give one confident "should": They should heed Bill's comments regarding the importance of marketing -- even marketing to existing FreeBSD users. If developers must, they could keep the current CVS tag-naming scheme and use whatever terms they want in developer forums, but elsewhere FreeBSD people should use more sensible terms than CURRENT (other branches are current too) and RELEASE (other branches are releases too) and STABLE (which might not even compile). I'd extend Bill's suggestion for future branch naming to: ALPHA -- Name of the HEAD branch (trunk?). (Was: CURRENT.) #-ALPHA -- Synonym of ALPHA. (Was: #-CURRENT.) (Non-existent after HEAD moves on to #+1.) BETA -- Ambiguous synonym of #-BETA, but useful in context. (Was: STABLE.) #-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_# branch. (Was: #-STABLE.) (Non-existent until #.#-STABLE is created.) (Example: 4-BETA = RELENG_4) #.#-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_#_# branch, when beta quality. (Uncommon. Example: 5.1-BETA = RELENG_5_1) #.#-STABLE -- Name of the RELENG_#_# branch, when stable quality. (Common. Example: 4.8-STABLE = RELENG_4_8) #.#.#-* -- Name of the RELENG_#_#_#_RELEASE branch, where "*" equals BETA or STABLE. (This is more of a node than a branch, AFAIK; such branches have only one snapshot which is normally called a "release". ALPHA might never be used.) (Example: 5.1.0-BETA = RELENG_5_1_0_RELEASE) (Example: 4.6.2-STABLE = RELENG_4_6_2_RELEASE) Releases and snapshots could be similarly named (though snapshots can only be identified by branch name and a date+time, AFAIK). It's debatable whether the names of branches and releases should contain something like "BRANCH" or "RELEASE" so they are not ambiguous. Using, say "#.#-STABLE" as a synonym for "#.#.0-STABLE" should probably be allowed for releases (only). It might reduce transition confusion to use a term other than "STABLE". Maybe "TESTED". Alternatives to mix and match: CURRENT STABLE sucurity-fix-only ALPHA BETA STABLE EXPER DEVEL TESTED P.S. For an example of confusing names, one need go no further than http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/5-roadmap/schedule.html which suggests a series of branches like this: Sept 1, 2003: 5.2-BETA, general code freeze Sept 15, 2003: 5.2-RC1, RELENG_5 and RELENG_5_2 branched Sept 22, 2003: 5.2-RC2 Sept 29, 2003: 5.2-RELEASE So the -STABLE branch starts two weeks before there's a stable release. And releases with "5.2" in the name come out before the first good 5.2 release and even before a 5.2 RELENG_ branch starts. And releases are called release "candidates", even though they are actual releases. And when they are not candidates to be released for wide use. Bedlam! I'd use something like (ignoring the dates): Sept 1, 2003: 5.1.1-BETA (tag RELENG_5_1_1_RELENG), general code freeze Sept 15, 2003: 5.1.2-BETA (tag RELENG_5_1_2_RELENG) Sept 22, 2003: 5.1.3-BETA (tag RELENG_5_1_3_RELENG) Sept 29, 2003: 5.2-STABLE (tags RELENG_5_2_0_RELENG, RELENG_5_2, RELENG_5) I see no need to designate release branches or releases as release candidates. If they are indead candidates to become other releases, they can be designated so in words. If such designations MUST be encoded in the name, then add some token which is as non-misleading as possible, as in Sept 22, 2003: 5.1.3-BETA-P2 (tag RELENG_5_1_3) Sept 29, 2003: 5.2-STABLE (tags RELENG_5_2_0_RELENG, RELENG_5_2, RELENG_5) which has a beta-quality "Prerelease #2" becoming a stable release. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 19:35:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E10716A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfes0.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.187.128]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E96743FF2 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 3403 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Sep 2003 02:34:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:34:56 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030908023456.GA3126@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 02:35:00 -0000 For around 4 months now I've been mainly using Debian because I couldn't get FreeBSD to work on my new laptop. I really like the way they do things. In a nutshell, they always have *three* branches: "stable" -- frozen, only bugfixes go in "testing" -- stuff in a queue for a "stable" release "unstable" -- the main development distribution "Unstable" packages are typically the latest bleeding-edge versions, and therefore a new package may break a lot of others, etc. Packages are imported from "unstable" into "testing" automatically by a script, when it satisfies the criteria given at http://www.debian.org/devel/testing and "testing" becomes "stable" when the bug-count drops to acceptable levels (to facilitate this they "freeze" it when they think it's getting ready for a release). When "testing" becomes the new "stable", the old "stable" is archived. There are security advisories and bugfixes for "stable" but little else (so it's like our -RELEASE branches). It is thus ideal for production environments where you want a solid system and not the latest bells and whistles, but if you look at the package list it has a distinctly musty, old-fashioned smell. Security advisories are not a priority for "testing" or "unstable" (because of lack of resources). "unstable" tends to have the latest versions of packages so should be secure generally. I run a mixture of "testing" and "unstable" and the whole setup has been remarkably bugfree so far. I don't know how this could work for the FreeBSD base system, which is not a collection of packages. But it actually strikes me as an excellent idea for the ports system. My big peeve with the ports system has long been the way a single port can break your entire system: you have port foo 1.0 installed, but the latest version is 1.1 and port bar requires foo 1.1 and pulls it in, but that breaks 200 other packages using foo 1.0. Recent example: gettext. Older example, the one that bit me: libpng 1.0->1.2. (Of course, if you have lots of bandwidth and cpu time, you could just use portupgrade to rebuild all your ports. We need a better answer.) This really arises from the fact that the ports system can only have one version of a port at a time, so it is forced to be bleeding-edge. Even worse, it's the same ports tree for RELENG-4 and RELENG-5. Another bottleneck is that each contributed port must come in via a PR and then be committed by a committer, who ultimately is responsible for testing it and seeing what breaks, in contrast to Debian's more "distributed" system and automated unstable->testing move process. The DragonFly people seem to have some ambitious goals, and Matt even mentions Debian as an example of how to do packaging right. I'd like to give DF a spin, but I may have no better luck on this laptop than with FreeBSD. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 21:49:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B7416A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8FF43FE5 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003090804491401300k7gude>; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:49:14 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h884nF4d064807; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h884n9Mx064806; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "Jason C. Wells" References: From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:49:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Jason C. Wells's message of "Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:10:50 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 04:49:16 -0000 "Jason C. Wells" writes: > Rather than releasing development code and making big warnings, just > _recruit_ more testers. That is what was needed in accordance with the > early adopter's guide. This is the most direct path to the desired > outcome. You'll recruit more testers by making releases and you'll recruit even more by naming the releases well. What "well" is is the problem, because name choices have other effects too. > Those who are inclined to test will test. Those who are not inclined to > test (me, until I got the OpenAFS bug) will not. That's just not true, at least if normal users who report bugs are counted as testers, as they should be. BTW, please tell me a little about OpenAFS. Didn't CMU abandon its copyrights on AFS so it's in the public domain? If so, OpenAFS is a funny name. Under what license is the new work being done? Is the project working on the GUI libraries? Are they usable for normal applications? > The old way was better. The only thing I know about the old way is what I read at http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/5-roadmap/index.html and were the old way sounds worse. Unless there's a REAL old way where beta releases carry beta-type names. As I indicated above, it's necessary to make a few beta releases and the only question is what they should have been named. They probably should have been named "NickName #" or "5.pre0.#" or (in keeping with my last message) with a "4.*-beta" name, but "5.#" wasn't much worse as long as they were described as well as they were. The names that were used surely got the code tested better than other names would have, and that might be worth the (minor?) harm it's doing to FreeBSD's reputation. There would also have been some harm caused by delaying 5.0 a second year. And delaying 5.0 another year would have caused some morale problems with the developers too. As it is, as this thread shows, there are many people quite happy using 5.x in non-test situations. While 5.0 (I should say X11 on 5.0) kept hanging up on my system, 5.1 has been working fine as my sole desktop OS. (I do still have 4.8 around, but it looks like I won't need it.) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 22:52:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A4016A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C097C43F3F for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:52:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (s1.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.201])h885q6Oe077585 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:52:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-X-Sender: jcw@s1.stradamotorsports.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:52:14 -0000 On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > You'll recruit more testers by making releases and you'll recruit even > more by naming the releases well. What "well" is is the problem, > because name choices have other effects too. If we want to use names to do the recruiting for us, perhaps we should call it 5.1-ALMOST-AS-GOOD-AS-MICROSOFT-WITH-HI-DEF-MEDIA-PLAYER-AND-ANNA- KOURNIKOVA-CLIPS. That should get even more people to do testing. And as far as long times between releases, so what? Developers are packing enough major shit into 5.X to tide FreeBSD over for 4 major releases. File system snapshots, ACLs, MAC, PAE, SMPng, that's a major chunk of work. I have said my bit. I only intended to cast my vote and be heard. I didn't want to spend this much time on the issue. Check out openafs.org for AFS info. The people who are working on FreeBSD are working on -current. openafs will build and run on FreeBSD as a client by my own experience, and as a server by reports I have read. It was wonky though. It would hang the system if you tried to kill it. This is what lead me to try out 5.1 in the first place. Later, Jason C. Wells From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 7 23:59:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4DE16A4BF for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3B643FE5 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h886xsVP065084; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 02:59:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> References: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:41:42 +0200 To: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 06:59:59 -0000 At 6:44 PM -0700 2003/09/07, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > ALPHA -- Name of the HEAD branch (trunk?). > (Was: CURRENT.) > #-ALPHA -- Synonym of ALPHA. > (Was: #-CURRENT.) > (Non-existent after HEAD moves on to #+1.) I don't really have any problem with renaming CURRENT to ALPHA. > BETA -- Ambiguous synonym of #-BETA, but useful in context. > (Was: STABLE.) > #-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_# branch. > (Was: #-STABLE.) > (Non-existent until #.#-STABLE is created.) > (Example: 4-BETA = RELENG_4) No, not correct. Problem is that bugs are sometimes caught up in a -RELEASE, which actually won't run or even install on certain types of systems. There's a reason STABLE is called that -- it's almost always better than the most recent RELEASE for the same line, since it is basically just that same RELEASE plus bug fixes. There are times when this is not true (mostly when some new feature has been recently MFC'ed, or when a -RELEASE has been cut for CURRENT), but this is true far more often than not. We should either stick with STABLE as the name for this, or find something better than BETA. > #.#-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_#_# branch, when beta quality. > (Uncommon. Example: 5.1-BETA = RELENG_5_1) > #.#-STABLE -- Name of the RELENG_#_# branch, when stable quality. > (Common. Example: 4.8-STABLE = RELENG_4_8) Therein likes the problem. There is no distinction between "beta" or "stable" quality in the system today, and it would take a massive change in the entire release engineering process before you could do that. Like, basically throw out all history of how work has ever been done (and the people who've done all that work), and start over from zero. Moreover, since there are usually extreme generational changes between major versions, what is really needed is a split between development and operational versions, and then a further break down of alpha/beta/stable branches at least for the operational version. Snapshots would be taken of operational+stable at appropriate times and then turned into official RELEASE versions. > P.S. For an example of confusing names, one need go no further than > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/5-roadmap/schedule.html > which suggests a series of branches like this: > Sept 1, 2003: 5.2-BETA, general code freeze > Sept 15, 2003: 5.2-RC1, RELENG_5 and RELENG_5_2 branched > Sept 22, 2003: 5.2-RC2 > Sept 29, 2003: 5.2-RELEASE You are confusing the CVS tags RELENG_5 and RELENG_5_2 with the human-visible terms such as 5.2-RC1, 5.2-RC2, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 00:29:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76CA16A4C0 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC2E43FF5 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003090807294601100kqvvee>; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:29:46 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:29:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030908001530.T22654@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 07:29:49 -0000 On Sun, 7 Sep 2003, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Michel Talon writes: > > > In my opinion, the 4.* series should not > > have been maintained so long (except for security fixes), it stresses > > too much the available developer workforce. Developers work on whatever branches it suits their fancy to work on. > So when should non-security 4.* work have stopped? When I started > using FreeBSD, the 5.0 target was Nov'2001, IIRC, and it was supposed > to have features than are not yet in 5-CURRENT. The decision to delay any kind of release in the 5.x branch was the right one to make. The fact that it's still missing features that we wanted to have 2 years ago should give you an idea of why. :) > How long should 4.* users have to live with a moribund OS? 4.x users don't HAVE to live with anything. They are free to use any other version, or any other operating system they want to use if 4.x doesn't meet their needs. As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but incredibly unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of branches going to help. If there is anything here you don't like, feel free to start coding fixes to the things you don't like. Meanwhile, trying to tell people who are volunteering their time how and where to do so is incredibly unlikely to be successful. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 01:10:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4239F16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DDF43F75 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-154-137.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.154.137]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F76154F6; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:10:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id DC1D920F2D; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:10:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:10:01 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jason C. Wells" Message-ID: <20030908081001.GD96960@over-yonder.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 08:10:07 -0000 On Sun, Sep 07, 2003 at 10:52:06PM -0700 I heard the voice of Jason C. Wells, and lo! it spake thus: > > If we want to use names to do the recruiting for us, perhaps we should > call it 5.1-ALMOST-AS-GOOD-AS-MICROSOFT-WITH-HI-DEF-MEDIA-PLAYER-AND-ANNA- > KOURNIKOVA-CLIPS. That should get even more people to do testing. I've got hi-def media players. How can I configure CVSup to just pull down the patches to install the Anna Kournikova clips? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 03:31:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FEC16A4C0 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB6F43FBF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19wJM3-000Giz-VW; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:34:44 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:31:13 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:31:18 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >You'll recruit more testers by making releases and you'll recruit even >more by naming the releases well. What "well" is is the problem, >because name choices have other effects too. > I agree except you will NOT recruit testers by making releases in this way. You will make enemies. If something is named a -RELEASE, I and the rest of the planet expect it to be production ready code, capable of going into a live environment and the kind of software that I should be able to buy in a shrink-wrapped box. If it is NOT production ready, it should be named as such. It should have a -BETA in the name. It should DEFINITELY not be named a -RELEASE. I know the amount of work that's gone into 5.x, and I know that there is a need for testers. What has happened with 5.x though is an absolute travesty. I know a lot of people will never, ever trust the FreeBSD release engineers again - they will refuse to run code released as a -RELEASE until they've heard it's safe. In effect, we've lost "customers". We've lost potential testers. We've lost new users, potential developers and people prepared to throw money at the project. We've lost a lot, because we -RELEASE'ed something before it was release-ready. A policy on naming beta code as beta code is required. Everybody here is aware of the fact that 5.x shouldn't be rolled out onto the payroll system just yet, but what does that say about the project as a whole when it's named as a -RELEASE, to somebody coming over to FreeBSD from the dark side? >and were the old way sounds worse. Unless there's a REAL old way >where beta releases carry beta-type names. As I indicated above, it's >necessary to make a few beta releases and the only question is what >they should have been named. > Keeping the betas named as betas would be fine. 5.0-BETA-1 should have been the name for 5.0-RELEASE. Then 5.0-BETA-2 for 5.1-RELEASE, 5.0-BETA-3 for 5.2-RELEASE, then 5.0-BETA-4, 5.0-BETA-5, etc. then when the code is READY for a production environment and everybody agrees it rocks, we finally get to 5.0-RELEASE Obviously, this can't be done on the 5.x branch now, but in the future... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 03:37:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A637016A4C0 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CB143FE9 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19wJRn-000GjL-AO; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:40:39 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5C5BD3.3030800@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:37:07 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:37:13 -0000 Kris Kirby wrote: >It doesn't matter if your desktop crashes, repeatedly in one day, to ruin >your productivity -- but a server doing down ruins many people >productivity and results in a real loss of money. > Do you have any idea how much I want to punch you in the face for saying that? A desktop crashing is important. A person who is dealing with crashes and is losing productivity because of THIS PROJECT is important. You might be happy with a desktop crashing all day long, but nobody else is. Serioulsy, telling somebody who isn't able to get their work done, that it doesn't matter because it's not a server issue, is the kind of thing that hammers nails into the coffin of FreeBSD. Is that something you really want? The newbie had a valid point, learn from it. Please, just.... oh, never mind... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 03:44:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61EB16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A7E43F93 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 03:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19wJZ8-000Gjm-2C; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:48:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5C5D9B.4030603@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:44:43 +0100 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20030908023456.GA3126@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20030908023456.GA3126@online.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:44:46 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >For around 4 months now I've been mainly using Debian because I couldn't >get FreeBSD to work on my new laptop. > What was the issue, just out of curiosity? >I really like the way they do >things. In a nutshell, they always have *three* branches: > >"stable" -- frozen, only bugfixes go in >"testing" -- stuff in a queue for a "stable" release >"unstable" -- the main development distribution > You're right - that is a nice way to do things. >I don't know how this could work for the FreeBSD base system, which is > There was some discussion several years ago when Jordan was still about, and again a few months back, that making everything packages was a good goal to aim for. It got tied up with the sysinstall bikeshed though. >The DragonFly people seem to have some ambitious goals, > That's an understatment. >and Matt even >mentions Debian as an example of how to do packaging right. I'd like to >give DF a spin, but I may have no better luck on this laptop than with >FreeBSD. > It won't. DF is not that different from FBSD at this stage for the majority of stuff. It certainly isn't going to be sufficiently different to get you to a point of being more likely to install. Whenever FBSD dails, I find Net or Open to save the day most times. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 04:18:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B04D16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.packet.org.uk (public2-with1-3-cust50.bagu.broadband.ntl.com [80.5.52.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C83643FE0 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd-x@packet.org.uk) Received: from xaphod by mailgate.packet.org.uk with local (Exim 4.22) id 19wK2R-000L7J-65; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:18:31 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:18:31 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030908111831.GA79830@packet.org.uk> References: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:18:37 -0000 * Paul Robinson [2003-09-08 11:32:35 BST]: > Keeping the betas named as betas would be fine. 5.0-BETA-1 should have > been the name for 5.0-RELEASE. Then 5.0-BETA-2 for 5.1-RELEASE, > 5.0-BETA-3 for 5.2-RELEASE, then 5.0-BETA-4, 5.0-BETA-5, etc. then when > the code is READY for a production environment and everybody agrees it > rocks, we finally get to 5.0-RELEASE You got my vote. I like my version numbering to mean something in itself. If you need to know "how things are done" to interpret "5.1-RELEASE" really means "5.1-RELEASE-BUT-NOT-RATED-FOR-PRODUCTION-USE-SO-BEWARE" then the versioning is not doing it's job. Or we could start using odd and even numbers to identify different release types.... Oh wait, no, that's stupid.... :-) -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey Freelance FreeBSD Hacker (will work for bandwidth) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 05:43:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F056A16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfelk.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA82543FE0 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 787 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Sep 2003 12:43:23 -0000 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:43:23 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20030908124323.GA731@online.fr> References: <20030908023456.GA3126@online.fr> <3F5C5D9B.4030603@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F5C5D9B.4030603@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 12:43:28 -0000 Paul Robinson said on Sep 8, 2003 at 11:44:43: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >For around 4 months now I've been mainly using Debian because I couldn't > >get FreeBSD to work on my new laptop. > > > > What was the issue, just out of curiosity? With ACPI disabled it wouldn't boot at all, it would freeze very early in the booting process; while with ACPI enabled, it would not detect my touchpad (psm0). Apparently this issue has cropped up with various hardware over the years. I reported it on -current and -mobile. Haven't tried it recently. Also didn't try -stable because the laptop is rather crippled without ACPI (no APM bios, etc) and it works fine with Debian. I guess with the recent ACPI import into -stable it's time to try it again, there are also patches for DF. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 06:42:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1CD16A4BF; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E86844003; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 308581299; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7141297; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:42:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <20030908001530.T22654@znfgre.qbhto.arg> Message-ID: <20030908063856.W80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:42:36 -0000 On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but incredibly > unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the > immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still > -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing > (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch > renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of > branches going to help. Once -STABLE moves from 4.x to 5.x (so that the project is back on 5.x-R, 5-S, and 5-C), is STABLE once again going to BE stable? It wasn't a bad thing that the CVS tag reflected what the source you were checking out was meant to be. I fully understand that accomodations have been made since two concurrent release tracks are the norm for right now, but having things witheld from -stable until they've passed muster in -current in the past was a very good thing. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 07:01:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1205016A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDE843FDD for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:01:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([62.49.21.186]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19wMZq-0008oZ-0Y; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:01:10 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:01:07 +0100 To: Paul Robinson From: Kevin Golding References: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:01:13 -0000 In article <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk>, Paul Robinson writes >I agree except you will NOT recruit testers by making releases in this >way. You will make enemies. > >If something is named a -RELEASE, I and the rest of the planet expect it >to be production ready code, capable of going into a live environment >and the kind of software that I should be able to buy in a >shrink-wrapped box. What about the hordes of people who won't touch MS code until there's at least one Service Pack for it? Or the age old idea that people should never install version *.0 in a production environment? In fact a lot of people won't roll *any* version of software into a live environment without thorough testing by themselves first. Basically I'm saying that even if 5.0 had been to your standard for a release it still wouldn't have suited everyone. Although the project can, and indeed should, do all it can to make sure the code is up to scratch the process is never going to be perfect. Please note I'm talking about 5.0 here; for 5.1 I think far more people would be inclined to trust the name, and even with the warnings we've had 5.2 is about when most people seem to be expecting 5-STABLE. >Keeping the betas named as betas would be fine. 5.0-BETA-1 should have >been the name for 5.0-RELEASE. Then 5.0-BETA-2 for 5.1-RELEASE, >5.0-BETA-3 for 5.2-RELEASE, then 5.0-BETA-4, 5.0-BETA-5, etc. then when >the code is READY for a production environment and everybody agrees it >rocks, we finally get to 5.0-RELEASE Whatever the "release" should be called it would still need to undergo the RE cycle otherwise they could cause even more embarrassment to the project. For fear of ending up with 5.0-BETA-1-beta1 and other such convoluted strings I think -BETA should be given a wide berth to avoid the merriment some would revel in. That's not to say another moniker couldn't be adopted (something like -PREVIEW for example) just that the project shouldn't have varying standards simply because -RELEASE does or doesn't apply. Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 09:09:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4F416A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from twix.hotpop.com (twix.hotpop.com [204.57.55.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A01743F3F for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by twix.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B4FC719789 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:08:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from fortytwo. (ip68-109-49-234.lu.dl.cox.net [68.109.49.234]) by smtp-2.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E570B1800D4; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:07:45 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Paul Robinson Message-Id: <20030908110745.19e8a85e.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <3F5C5A71.6020204@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:09:03 -0000 On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:31:13 +0100 Paul Robinson wrote: > Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > >You'll recruit more testers by making releases and you'll recruit even > >more by naming the releases well. What "well" is is the problem, > >because name choices have other effects too. > > > > I agree except you will NOT recruit testers by making releases in this > way. You will make enemies. > > If something is named a -RELEASE, I and the rest of the planet expect it > to be production ready code, capable of going into a live environment > and the kind of software that I should be able to buy in a > shrink-wrapped box. Hehe, right up on the web site it says New Technology Release with right below it is listed Production Release. Yes, it should probally be made more obvious for ppl that are unwilling to read any of the documentation for the OS they are installing. My theory thought is that ppl that are unwilling to read documentation are just naturally 100% totally screwed so it does not make much dif what OS they use. > If it is NOT production ready, it should be named as such. It should > have a -BETA in the name. It should DEFINITELY not be named a -RELEASE. > I know the amount of work that's gone into 5.x, and I know that there is > a need for testers. What has happened with 5.x though is an absolute > travesty. I know a lot of people will never, ever trust the FreeBSD > release engineers again - they will refuse to run code released as a > -RELEASE until they've heard it's safe. In effect, we've lost > "customers". We've lost potential testers. We've lost new users, > potential developers and people prepared to throw money at the project. > We've lost a lot, because we -RELEASE'ed something before it was > release-ready. Yeah yeah, sticking BETA in there would be nice. What would also be uber nice is some link pointing towards a page with a list of known problems with it and progress on killing those bugs. Personally I like the name UNSTABLE or NON-PRODUCTION my self. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 10:46:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0037016A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A4843F75 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) h88HjA9H023904; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:45:10 -0400 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h88HjARl023902; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:45:10 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:45:10 -0400 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Message-ID: <20030908174510.GA23832@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:46:12 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > > BETA -- Ambiguous synonym of #-BETA, but useful in > > context. > > (Was: STABLE.) > > #-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_# branch. > > (Was: #-STABLE.) > > (Non-existent until #.#-STABLE is created.) > > (Example: 4-BETA = RELENG_4) > > No, not correct. Problem is that bugs are sometimes caught up in > a -RELEASE, which actually won't run or even install on certain types > of systems. There's a reason STABLE is called that -- it's almost > always better than the most recent RELEASE for the same line, since > it is basically just that same RELEASE plus bug fixes. There are > times when this is not true (mostly when some new feature has been > recently MFC'ed, or when a -RELEASE has been cut for CURRENT), but > this is true far more often than not. Not true. At one time this is what the handbook claimed, but it was updated to better reflect the true situation which is (to quote the handbook): http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/current-stable.html FreeBSD-STABLE is our development branch from which major releases are made. Changes go into this branch at a different pace, and with the general assumption that they have first gone into FreeBSD-CURRENT for testing. This is still a development branch, however, and this means that at any given time, the sources for FreeBSD-STABLE may or may not be suitable for any particular purpose. It is simply another engineering development track, not a resource for end-users. ... While it is true that security fixes also go into the FreeBSD-STABLE branch, you do not need to track FreeBSD-STABLE to do this.... ... we do not recommend that you blindly track FreeBSD-STABLE, and it is particularly important that you do not update any production servers to FreeBSD-STABLE without first thoroughly testing the code in your development environment. There is however a -RELEASE branch, which is the RELEASE plus bugfixes. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 12:49:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38ABA16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377DE43FCB for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <200309081948560150023f7se>; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:48:56 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Jmi4d077599; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h88JmbKQ077598; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Brad Knowles References: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 12:48:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Brad Knowles's message of "Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:41:42 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:49:01 -0000 Brad Knowles writes: > At 6:44 PM -0700 2003/09/07, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >> #-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_# branch. >> (Was: #-STABLE.) >> (Non-existent until #.#-STABLE is created.) >> (Example: 4-BETA = RELENG_4) > > No, not correct. Problem is that bugs are sometimes caught up > in a -RELEASE, which actually won't run or even install on > certain types of systems. There's a reason STABLE is called > that -- it's almost always better than the most recent RELEASE > for the same line, since it is basically just that same > RELEASE plus bug fixes. There are times when this is not true > (mostly when some new feature has been recently MFC'ed, or > when a -RELEASE has been cut for CURRENT), but this is true > far more often than not. Remember what we're talking about here. The naming of branches and releases in general, and especially releases the normal users can use with as much confidence as possible. While it's true that untested FreeBSD beta code is often better than the last tested release, it's also true that it sometimes so bad that it won't even compile. The universal advice is to not use the beta code without good testing. It's foolish to label such code STABLE. Many people choose to use the beta code and think they can test it well enough themselves, but that's a different issue that has little to do with the naming of the branches and releases. If anything, it suggests that the beta code should be designated as "UNTESTED" or "BETA". >> #.#-BETA -- Name of the RELENG_#_# branch, when beta quality. >> (Uncommon. Example: 5.1-BETA = RELENG_5_1) >> #.#-STABLE -- Name of the RELENG_#_# branch, when stable quality. >> (Common. Example: 4.8-STABLE = RELENG_4_8) > > Therein likes the problem. There is no distinction between > "beta" or "stable" quality in the system today, and it would > take a massive change in the entire release engineering > process before you could do that. Sure there's a distinction. RELENG_5_1 has been designated "not STABLE" (alpha) and RELENG_4_8 was called "STABLE" (beta) and RELENG_4_8_0_RELEASE was announced as tested and ready for wide use (stable). It takes no massive change in anything for people to write "5.1-BETA" and "5.2-STABLE" instead of "5.1-RELEASE" and "5.2-RELEASE", or "5.1.2-BETA" instead of "5.1-RC1", etc. > Like, basically throw out all history of how work has ever > been done (and the people who've done all that work), and > start over from zero. Humbug. I'm only talking about using better names. There's no change to what's being done (branching, releasing, or even CVS naming). > Moreover, since there are usually extreme generational changes > between major versions, what is really needed is a split It's fun to propose changes, isn't it? Yours make mine look trivial. > You are confusing the CVS tags RELENG_5 and RELENG_5_2 with > the human-visible terms such as 5.2-RC1, 5.2-RC2, etc.... How can you say that I confused them when my version had the tags labeled "tag"? Eg: Sept 29, 2003: 5.2-STABLE (tags RELENG_5_2_0_RELENG, RELENG_5_2, RELENG_5) Let me repeat that I wouldn't mind seeing branches and releases referred to by more-or-less meaningless names like the tag names, as long as the stuff is well described. But people seem to require designations which indicate the nature of the product. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 13:10:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160DF16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B66F43FDF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:10:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88KA2Qw040820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:10:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)h88KA1m6040816; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:10:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88K6WpC049635; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:06:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h88K6Wbr049634; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:06:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:06:32 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20030908200632.GA49154@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901190947.03327e80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901190947.03327e80@localhost> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:10:08 -0000 On Mon, Sep 01, 2003 at 07:22:54PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > If you install FreeBSD and KDE, you'll find that a tremendous number of > BASIC things -- not just the fancy GUI stuff -- work with difficulty or > not at all. I use KDE for about a year. Whats wrong with it ? It suits my needs better than any other desktop thats currently available for Unix. And at the same time its more useful as for example Solaris 8's CDE ... The builtin scp functionality within the browser for example is really useful when working in a secure environment (fish:// ...). Yes, some fancy stuff might not work or isn't ported yet, but nevertheless *what you got now* is good enough. I understand, in a perfect world we would have a shiny desktop with BSD copyright ... but I'd say stop that whining. I doubt there such an effort happening. And I remember an article from Jordan Hubbard, that one of the biggest mistakes of Unix in the past was the GUI war. Making it a nightmare to develop applications for differend blands of Unix ... Therefore I think we don't need another desktop, all we need are some tough guys who make the necessary work to resolve all remaining bugs or missing features in KDE and GNOME. Of course, it would be fine, if all the teams would agree on one set of programming libraries and separate their work in - desktop related and - application related things. Then all people would work on a superb nice looking GUI, on superb applications using that GUI and nobody would have to invent the wheels again and again. So to say the world doesn't need the 10th editor, etc etc, all the redundancies KDE and GNOME bring ... But its the same with everything. One true Unix would also be enough, but it seems that people can't agree on, how it should look like ;-)))) Don't take me too serious, its -chat here ;-) Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 16:09:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DF216A4BF; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F63543F3F; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101](untrusted sender)) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20030908230923015008rv80e>; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:09:23 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88N9J4d080363; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h88N9Di6080362; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: Doug Barton References: <3F5B4AA9.1000003@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <4k7k4kjbpz.k4k@mail.comcast.net> <20030908001530.T22654@znfgre.qbhto.arg> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:09:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20030908001530.T22654@znfgre.qbhto.arg> (Doug Barton's message of "Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:29:45 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <8ik78ij2sn.78i@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 23:09:24 -0000 Doug Barton writes: > The decision to delay any kind of release in the 5.x branch was the > right one to make. The fact that it's still missing features that we > wanted to have 2 years ago should give you an idea of why. :) I agree, except that with good naming there should be no problem with releasing buggy and incomplete code very early. (I'm talking in general there, and not sniping at 5.0.) The problem has to do with what code is referred to as "X.0". Because of human nature, it either needs to be the buggy incomplete alpha/beta code or code that is announced as the real thing, ready for wide use and recommended for use (by most people) over anything in RELENG_X until "X.0.1" or "X.1" is released. And also because of that human nature, if you really want to maximize the number of people using the first good version, you'd better not call it "X.0" because most people expect it to be buggy. The way 5.x was released was just as people tend to expect software to be released. As I said before, I'm not prepared to critize what happened with that. My criticism is of the confusing/misleading use of CURRENT, RELEASE, and STABLE. > As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but incredibly > unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the > immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still > -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing > (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch > renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of > branches going to help. I agree with all of that, except the implication that I suggested any expansion of the number of branches. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 16:20:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A268916A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA9143FE0 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003090823202201400622h3e>; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:20:22 +0000 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:20:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Jamie Bowden In-Reply-To: <20030908063856.W80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Message-ID: <20030908161846.T32034@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030908063856.W80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 23:20:23 -0000 On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > > > As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but incredibly > > unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the > > immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still > > -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing > > (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch > > renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of > > branches going to help. > > Once -STABLE moves from 4.x to 5.x (so that the project is back on 5.x-R, > 5-S, and 5-C), is STABLE once again going to BE stable? We are delaying the branch in -current until we're reasonably confident that the thing is stable enough to use in a production system. Of course, as soon as we declare it "stable" then the number of users will go up dramatically, and more bugs will be found. This is inevitable. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 17:04:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8DF16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB3C43FD7 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilson32@kc.rr.com) Received: from webkl7bcj7ou3q (CPE-65-28-67-59.kc.rr.com [65.28.67.59]) h8904Ms0004267 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:04:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <004901c37665$ec361e50$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> From: "Derik Wilson" To: References: <20030908063856.W80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> <20030908161846.T32034@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:04:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:04:27 -0000 Like a sid a long time ago. I am a freeBSD newb so as you can guess I like to learn all I can about freeBSD and anything else for that matter, however, at the moment, all I see are people bickering about something that they can no longer control. The release of freeBSD 5.x. This doesn't help. Let's find a way to learn from this instead of firing opinions at each other about how we think one release is better than the other. Sorry if I am stepping over my boundries but can we talk about the good things that cam from the new release and maybe some problems that can be addressed (but not in an offensive manner.) Debates are good when controlled and guided. Thanks all! Keep us newbies alive! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Barton" To: "Jamie Bowden" Cc: "Michel Talon" ; Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 6:20 PM Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > > As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but incredibly > > > unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the > > > immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still > > > -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing > > > (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch > > > renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of > > > branches going to help. > > > > Once -STABLE moves from 4.x to 5.x (so that the project is back on 5.x-R, > > 5-S, and 5-C), is STABLE once again going to BE stable? > > We are delaying the branch in -current until we're reasonably confident > that the thing is stable enough to use in a production system. Of > course, as soon as we declare it "stable" then the number of users will > go up dramatically, and more bugs will be found. This is inevitable. > > Doug > > -- > > This .signature sanitized for your protection > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 8 17:06:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE37C16A4BF for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E501343FA3 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilson32@kc.rr.com) Received: from webkl7bcj7ou3q (CPE-65-28-67-59.kc.rr.com [65.28.67.59]) h8905us0005934 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:05:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <005501c37666$24368380$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> From: "Derik Wilson" To: References: <20030908063856.W80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> <20030908161846.T32034@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <004901c37665$ec361e50$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:05:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:06:02 -0000 By the way, sorry for the nasty spelling. LOL! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derik Wilson" To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 7:04 PM Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better > Like a sid a long time ago. I am a freeBSD newb so as you can guess I like > to learn all I can about freeBSD and anything else for that matter, however, > at the moment, all I see are people bickering about something that they can > no longer control. The release of freeBSD 5.x. This doesn't help. Let's > find a way to learn from this instead of firing opinions at each other about > how we think one release is better than the other. > > Sorry if I am stepping over my boundries but can we talk about the good > things that cam from the new release and maybe some problems that can be > addressed (but not in an offensive manner.) Debates are good when > controlled and guided. > > Thanks all! Keep us newbies alive! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Barton" > To: "Jamie Bowden" > Cc: "Michel Talon" ; > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better > > > > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > > > > As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but > incredibly > > > > unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the > > > > immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still > > > > -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing > > > > (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch > > > > renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of > > > > branches going to help. > > > > > > Once -STABLE moves from 4.x to 5.x (so that the project is back on > 5.x-R, > > > 5-S, and 5-C), is STABLE once again going to BE stable? > > > > We are delaying the branch in -current until we're reasonably confident > > that the thing is stable enough to use in a production system. Of > > course, as soon as we declare it "stable" then the number of users will > > go up dramatically, and more bugs will be found. This is inevitable. > > > > Doug > > > > -- > > > > This .signature sanitized for your protection > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 9 01:12:51 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D38916A4C0 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC71E43FBD for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from master.dougb.net (12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com[12.234.22.23](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003090908124801500i94i7e>; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:12:48 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 01:12:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Derik Wilson In-Reply-To: <004901c37665$ec361e50$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> Message-ID: <20030909011214.W26496@znfgre.qbhto.arg> References: <20030908063856.W80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> <20030908161846.T32034@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <004901c37665$ec361e50$3b431c41@webkl7bcj7ou3q> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:12:51 -0000 On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Derik Wilson wrote: > Like a sid a long time ago. I am a freeBSD newb so as you can guess I like > to learn all I can about freeBSD and anything else for that matter, however, > at the moment, all I see are people bickering about something that they can > no longer control. The release of freeBSD 5.x. This doesn't help. Let's > find a way to learn from this instead of firing opinions at each other about > how we think one release is better than the other. Woo hoo! What a great plan. :) Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 9 03:23:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024C416A4BF for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 03:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta05bw.bigpond.com (mta05bw.bigpond.com [144.135.24.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0191A43FD7 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 03:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian.pulsford@bigpond.com) Received: from ceorl ([144.135.24.72]) by mta05bw.email.bigpond.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HKX00IBWZI580@mta05bw.email.bigpond.com> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 20:22:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from ess-p-144-138-77-70.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.138.77.70]) by bwmam02.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_3_2c 11/5913903); Tue, 09 Sep 2003 20:22:53 +0000 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 20:23:07 +1000 (E. Australia Standard Time) From: Ian Pulsford In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901190947.03327e80@localhost> X-X-Sender: ianp@cyning.werod.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <29508631.20030901165843@mail.ru> <1062427379.15322.12.camel@suzy.unbreakable.homeunix.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901143026.029afce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20030901190947.03327e80@localhost> Subject: Re: Ugly Huge BSD Monster X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:23:08 -0000 On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Brett Glass wrote: > In any event, the BSDs need a BSD-licensed desktop, designed with a BSD > philosophy, built with with BSD-quality code. That would be Blackbox. Ian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 9 05:37:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A3D16A4BF; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5490E43FE5; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D66C51316; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33681315; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 05:37:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <20030908161846.T32034@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Message-ID: <20030909053039.F80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:37:56 -0000 On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > > As for the rest of your post, it's all very interesting, but incredibly > > > unlikely to happen. The creation of the RELENG_4_X branches solved the > > > immediate need for a "stable branch plus security fixes." 5.x is still > > > -current, and while we do need to be more careful with our marketing > > > (and more careful with what goes into a 5.x release), massive branch > > > renaming just isn't going to happen, nor is expanding the number of > > > branches going to help. > > > > Once -STABLE moves from 4.x to 5.x (so that the project is back on 5.x-R, > > 5-S, and 5-C), is STABLE once again going to BE stable? > > We are delaying the branch in -current until we're reasonably confident > that the thing is stable enough to use in a production system. Of > course, as soon as we declare it "stable" then the number of users will > go up dramatically, and more bugs will be found. This is inevitable. Which is fine, but the gist of my question is whether or not we can expect to see the sort of stringent -CURRENT testing of code prior to MFC to -STABLE once the merge takes place and FBSD is no longer tracking two concurrent releases? The PAO issues would never have been allowed in the past, it would have immediately been backed out as soon as it became apparent that it was a show stopper of a bug. Bugs made it into -S in the past; -C users are a limited subset, but if something made it into -S that wasn't ready, it was immediately pulled back out of the public CVS repo until it was tracked and squished. As I said in my original entry point to this thread, I know the project is tracking two concurrent releases right now, so there are some accomodations being made, resources are scarce, this is a free project built by volunters, etc. Those resources hopefully won't be so stretched come the 5-STABLE branch later this month. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 9 15:11:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6379516A4BF; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A894143FBF; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:11:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from akruijff@www.kruijff.org) Received: from kruij557.speed.planet.nl (ipd50a97ba.speed.planet.nl [213.10.151.186]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKY007HYW8V34@smtp03.wxs.nl>; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:10:08 +0200 (MEST) Received: from Intranet.lan (akruijff@localhost [127.0.0.1]) h89MB87p043389;akruijff@Intranet.lan) Received: (from akruijff@localhost) by Intranet.lan (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h89MB6MO043388; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:11:07 +0200 (CEST envelope-from akruijff) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:11:06 +0200 From: Alex de Kruijff In-reply-to: <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> To: Andreas Klemm Message-id: <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> cc: Christer Solskogen cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:11:15 -0000 On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 08:50:10AM +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > Christer, > > I think its a bad idea to remove components from FreeBSD that > everybody would expect in a BSD. I think there has to be a clear reason if components where removed. This still doesn't mean that it couldn't come installed by default. It just meant useing the package / port system. Why sould we not use it? > I think you touch areas here like tradition ... > > In Linux its another thing, they don't have such a tradition, > since Linux is only a kernel and Linux never defined a Linux > basde system. So there you can discuss of having sendmail, > exim, postfix or qmail installed by default or not. The way the kernel is related to the distribution is totaly irrelevant. If you looking for traditions here they sould be in the various distributions. > IMHO I think its a good thing that a normal FreeBSD installation > includes bind and sendmail. This makes FreeBSD a complete > (standard/traditional) Unix after basic installation. But this could still be reaced if it was a port. > Things like perl had to go for other reasons in 5.x it was > related to difficulties in the build process and RPITA concerning > how the p5- ports fit into a scheme perl5 in base system + newer > perl5 under /usr/local. I think this basicaly comes down to being modulair. This is a good thing in my opinion! -- Alex Articles based on solutions that I use: http://www.kruijff.org/alex/index.php?dir=docs/FreeBSD/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 9 15:46:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F097616A4BF for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.knology.net (smtp2.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE65643FBF for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:46:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 19418 invoked from network); 9 Sep 2003 22:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 9 Sep 2003 22:46:36 -0000 From: David Kelly To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:46:33 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309091746.33282.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:46:39 -0000 On Tuesday 09 September 2003 05:11 pm, Alex de Kruijff wrote: > I think there has to be a clear reason if components where removed. > This still doesn't mean that it couldn't come installed by default. > It just meant useing the package / port system. Why sould we not use > it? I think the consensus (which I agree with) is that the FreeBSD ports system is a miracle in simplicity but is not up to the task of managing each and every file of an installation, versions, and the dependencies. JKH mentioned this a few times on the lists that I saw. Apparently there have been some nibbles at the task but nobody has bit off enough to chew. IRIX has/had a tool which seemed up to the task on SGI systems I once ran. I don't have any idea how hard it was to load files into their "inst" format, but once done it was easy enough to later replace any one suspect file on the machine with the original from CDROM. There are several projects providing examples of how to strip and build a custom minimal FreeBSD. MiniBSD comes to mind. Earlier this year I started with MiniBSD and worked it over quite a bit for my former employer. Was under 10 MB for a fairly complete running system. Then I threw Apache, Perl, and a lot of other stuff in nearly whole hog and was still under 30 MB. They didn't release my work to be shared. I wrote a Makefile which checked out sources via cvs, then manually drove ./usr/src/Makefile and ports Makefiles with parameters more to my liking. Most significant was the FreeBSD utilities were dynamically linked when normally /bin is statically linked. Everything was going on one filesystem so dynamic saved a lot of disk space. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 9 16:23:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197D116A4BF; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E9C43FEA; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003090923233401300d7nkge>; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:23:34 +0000 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Jamie Bowden In-Reply-To: <20030909053039.F80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Message-ID: <20030909161538.P42161@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030909053039.F80387-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Michel Talon cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Old Way Was Better X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 23:23:36 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Which is fine, but the gist of my question is whether or not we can expect > to see the sort of stringent -CURRENT testing of code prior to MFC to > -STABLE once the merge takes place and FBSD is no longer tracking two > concurrent releases? No, we plan to commit stuff to RELENG_5 willy nilly, with no regard for our users. (C'mon, what kind of answer did you expect to a question like that?) :) > The PAO issues would never have been allowed in the past, it would > have immediately been backed out as soon as it became apparent that it > was a show stopper of a bug. I took a member of the re@ team to task on that very topic last night as I held him captive in my car on the way to dinner at the 'con. :) Personally, I wouldn't have allowed the PAE stuff, or the ata bus dma changes into RELENG_4 at all, but it's easy to sit on the sidelines and grouse about stuff... the release engineers generally do a good job treading the fine line between too much progress, and not enough. > Bugs made it into -S in the past; -C users are a limited subset, but > if something made it into -S that wasn't ready, it was immediately > pulled back out of the public CVS repo until it was tracked and > squished. Your view of history is a little rosy here. Also, my _personal_ view of the thing is that I'd like to see the -stable branch be a little looser on imports prior to a freeze, and have a little bit longer of a freeze that's a real freeze. Then we can make the releases really solid, and let the RELENG_5_X branches be the safe landing point for people that want to try the new stuff, but don't have as much tolerance for getting bitten in the butt by bug smashing that will be ongoing in RELENG_5 for a while even after the tree is branched. > As I said in my original entry point to this thread, I know the > project is tracking two concurrent releases right now, so there are > some accomodations being made, resources are scarce, this is a free > project built by volunters, etc. Those resources hopefully won't be > so stretched come the 5-STABLE branch later this month. Who said next month? :) I'm hoping that we push the branch point back to 5.3 as things stand right now.... we need to get a mostly stable 5.2 out the door so that people can start testing the stuff that's gone in since 5.1, but we're close enough to being "done" with some of the really big changes right now that waiting another 3 months for the branch is almost certainly the right thing to do. Doug - -- This .signature sanitized for your protection -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/XmD1yIakK9Wy8PsRAvlEAJ91LkP4jJRLVDpfQ2PS+ywTvLFQPwCgiv67 spqPmvZkjeSPDHZNEXnAAX0= =BJCO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 03:50:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985E516A4E3 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8C543F3F for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AAoCQw071982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:50:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)h8AAoBxh071981; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:50:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AAmDuI049453; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:48:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8AAm73D049452; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:48:07 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Alex de Kruijff Message-ID: <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:50:19 -0000 On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 12:11:06AM +0200, Alex de Kruijff wrote: > On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 08:50:10AM +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > Christer, > > > > I think its a bad idea to remove components from FreeBSD that > > everybody would expect in a BSD. > > I think there has to be a clear reason if components where removed. This > still doesn't mean that it couldn't come installed by default. It just > meant useing the package / port system. Why sould we not use it? Because breaking BSD into too many little pieces has contra productive side effects... All components that you put into the ports system are not directly maintained by the FreeBSD committers anymore. Don't forget that not all port committers are FreeBSD committers. You need more experience in coding if you maintain a complete OS then to make something to fit under ports control to make it simply run. If the software is under CVS control, then many eyes watch the code from time to time by software review and such .... And as I said, if I make a complete OS installation then I expect to get a complete OS in the first place. And with a complete OS I mean a BSD with its roots and tradition so that at least it contains all those bits and bytes, that usually every commercial OS / BSD has or that has been in it since years ! 2 or 3 years I installed a RedHat for testing ... well the basic installation didn't contain even "sed". And things like this I strongly dislike. I even dislike that UUCP had to go into ports ... Now you don't have a standard tool in standard OS install like cu to connect to serial ports what need for job in the networking area. But at that time nobody wanted to take care of it, so it has to go out of CVS not to produce bitrod. > > I think you touch areas here like tradition ... > > > > In Linux its another thing, they don't have such a tradition, > > since Linux is only a kernel and Linux never defined a Linux > > basde system. So there you can discuss of having sendmail, > > exim, postfix or qmail installed by default or not. > > The way the kernel is related to the distribution is totaly irrelevant. > If you looking for traditions here they sould be in the various > distributions. What I mean with tradition is, that an Operating System exists since a long time and you are used to expect this and that in it ... And I repeat, Linux is only a kernel, therefore every distribution maker can't have something like a "normal tradition" since Linux never defined something like a base system for Linux. The effects are as I described, missing sed in standard installation like red hat and bloated installations all around. Many different flavours of tools in the different Linux installations. Though the BSD also differ in much things I have the feeling that they are still much closer to each other than the many many Linuxes I played with in the past: Slackware, RedHat, SuSE, Knoppix, Gentoo, Debian. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 05:03:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8D716A4BF; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 05:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A378F43FEA; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 05:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1EA97878E; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:03:47 +0200 (MEST) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 90FA797FF8; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 7C85397AEE; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 617C3B822; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:03:43 +0200 (CEST) To: Andreas Klemm References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:03:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> (Andreas Klemm's message of "Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:48:07 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:03:50 -0000 Andreas Klemm writes: > 2 or 3 years I installed a RedHat for testing ... well the > basic installation didn't contain even "sed". I very much doubt that, as sed(1) is required by POSIX. > I even dislike that UUCP had to go into ports ... Now you don't > have a standard tool in standard OS install like cu to connect > to serial ports what need for job in the networking area. When UUCP was removed, tip(1) was hacked to understand cu(1)'s command-line syntax, so we still have cu(1). I use it every day. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 07:08:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F25216A4BF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firehouse.net (shazam.wetworks.org [192.160.237.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 308F843FDF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alan-sender-52b549@clegg.com) Received: (qmail 82738 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2003 14:08:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO shazam.wetworks.org) (127.0.0.1) by shell.wetworks.org with SMTP; 10 Sep 2003 14:08:20 -0000 Received: by shazam.wetworks.org (tmda-sendmail, from uid 1000); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:08:19 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Y/WcH0a6A93yCHGr" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i From: "Alan B. Clegg" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.80 (Determine) X-TMDA-Fingerprint: H2+3O3c9II6JWIb0zjiCAbiHvs4 Subject: WindRiver terminates BSD/OS product X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:08:22 -0000 --Y/WcH0a6A93yCHGr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --SNIP-- Subject: BSD/OS ISE Product Notification Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:14:10 -0400 From: bsdos@windriver.com Reply-To: bsdos@windriver.com Organization: Wind River System, Inc. To: bsdos@windriver.com 09 September 2003 Dear BSD/OS Customer -- Thank you for your purchase and continued support of Wind River's BSD/OS INTERNET SERVER EDITION (ISE). We hope that our products have met your needs and we appreciate your business. This letter is your official notification that we are initiating the retirement phase for all of our BSD/OS-based products, including BSD/OS ISE. The difficult economic situation of the past few years, as well as other market factors, have forced us to re-evaluate our products and realign our product offerings to meet the long term needs of our customers. This was a very difficult decision, one which we did not make lightly. We will be releasing one final version of BSD/OS, as BSD/OS 5.1 ISE. This version will be available in October 2003, and will be available as an upgrade for BSD/OS 5.0 ISE customers with current maintenance. We recognize that you may still require support for your existing projects. Phone and e-mail support, as well as bug fixes and patches, will be available from Wind River for certain versions through 31 December 2004. Contact your sales representative to make special arrangements for support after 31 December 2004. For more detailed information, please refer to the enclosed BSD/OS ISE Retirement Summary. If you have additional questions, please contact your local sales representative. If you are in the United States, please call +1 800 545 WIND. Again, we thank you for your continued support of BSD/OS over the years. Sincerely, Wind River --SNIP-- --=20 "Oh people, know that you have committed great sins. If you ask me what | a= lan proof I have for these words, I say it is because I am the punishment | = at of God. If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a | c= legg punishment like me upon you." -- Genghis Kahn, Bukhara 1220 | .= com --Y/WcH0a6A93yCHGr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/XzBTyJP8xSfQVdsRArkOAKDPnpkaCH9pUG3kvnXVGUSW9lklxgCfXnYA H/M7u1VcGrBGsspzZUA3Acc= =uOx3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Y/WcH0a6A93yCHGr-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 07:26:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BCD16A4BF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9493A43FB1 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([24.53.179.151]) by mta10.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030910142609.LOVX12180.mta10.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:26:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3F5F347F.1070308@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:26:07 -0400 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030429 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alan B. Clegg" References: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> In-Reply-To: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WindRiver terminates BSD/OS product X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:26:09 -0000 I don't know if I'm the only one curious about the effects this will have on things ... Not being that close into the project, I don't know how much support Wind River has been (although I seem to remember someone talking them up for all their help). Also, since they don't seem to be planning to go out of business, it's unclear as to how that will change (if at all). Anyone got any further insight they feel comfortable sharing? Alan B. Clegg wrote: > --SNIP-- > Subject: BSD/OS ISE Product Notification > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:14:10 -0400 > From: bsdos@windriver.com > Reply-To: bsdos@windriver.com > Organization: Wind River System, Inc. > To: bsdos@windriver.com > > > 09 September 2003 > > Dear BSD/OS Customer -- > > Thank you for your purchase and continued support of Wind River's BSD/OS > INTERNET SERVER EDITION (ISE). We hope that our products have met your > needs and we appreciate your business. > > This letter is your official notification that we are initiating the > retirement phase for all of our BSD/OS-based products, including BSD/OS > ISE. The difficult economic situation of the past few years, as well as > other market factors, have forced us to re-evaluate our products and > realign our product offerings to meet the long term needs of our customers. > This was a very difficult decision, one which we did not make lightly. > > We will be releasing one final version of BSD/OS, as BSD/OS 5.1 ISE. > This version will be available in October 2003, and will be available > as an upgrade for BSD/OS 5.0 ISE customers with current maintenance. > > We recognize that you may still require support for your existing > projects. Phone and e-mail support, as well as bug fixes and patches, > will be available from Wind River for certain versions through 31 December > 2004. Contact your sales representative to make special arrangements > for support after 31 December 2004. > > For more detailed information, please refer to the enclosed BSD/OS ISE > Retirement Summary. > > If you have additional questions, please contact your local sales > representative. If you are in the United States, please call > +1 800 545 WIND. > > Again, we thank you for your continued support of BSD/OS over the years. > > Sincerely, > Wind River > --SNIP-- > -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 14:18:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823C416A4BF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.sea.theriver.com (smtp2.sea.theriver.com [216.39.128.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA0A943FE5 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from damm@fpsn.net) Received: (qmail 29263 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2003 21:18:25 -0000 Received: from portal.aphroland.org (HELO 10.10.10.132-unassigned.aphroland.org) (216.39.174.24) by smtp2.sea.theriver.com with SMTP; 10 Sep 2003 21:18:25 -0000 From: Scott Likens To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> References: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1063228704.7644.20.camel@desolation.livid.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 10 Sep 2003 14:18:25 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: WindRiver terminates BSD/OS product X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:18:29 -0000 On Wed, 2003-09-10 at 07:08, Alan B. Clegg wrote: > --SNIP-- > Subject: BSD/OS ISE Product Notification > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:14:10 -0400 > From: bsdos@windriver.com > Reply-To: bsdos@windriver.com > Organization: Wind River System, Inc. > To: bsdos@windriver.com > > > 09 September 2003 > > Dear BSD/OS Customer -- > > Thank you for your purchase and continued support of Wind River's BSD/OS > INTERNET SERVER EDITION (ISE). We hope that our products have met your > needs and we appreciate your business. > > This letter is your official notification that we are initiating the > retirement phase for all of our BSD/OS-based products, including BSD/OS > ISE. The difficult economic situation of the past few years, as well as > other market factors, have forced us to re-evaluate our products and > realign our product offerings to meet the long term needs of our customers. > This was a very difficult decision, one which we did not make lightly. > > We will be releasing one final version of BSD/OS, as BSD/OS 5.1 ISE. > This version will be available in October 2003, and will be available > as an upgrade for BSD/OS 5.0 ISE customers with current maintenance. > > We recognize that you may still require support for your existing > projects. Phone and e-mail support, as well as bug fixes and patches, > will be available from Wind River for certain versions through 31 December > 2004. Contact your sales representative to make special arrangements > for support after 31 December 2004. > > For more detailed information, please refer to the enclosed BSD/OS ISE > Retirement Summary. > > If you have additional questions, please contact your local sales > representative. If you are in the United States, please call > +1 800 545 WIND. > > Again, we thank you for your continued support of BSD/OS over the years. > > Sincerely, > Wind River > --SNIP-- I know I will be the first to say this,this is a sad sad day. I really hate to see BSD/OS fall this far, but it was coming and was known for quite some time. Economic factor's arn't really the problem. BSD/OS's viability became less and less known. I remember running BSD/OS on my servers with 3.1, and loving the stability. This will be another day in my memory to never leave, knowing when BSD/OS leaves. As far as help, BSDi was a large help in general to FreeBSD in earlier releases. As of late i'm not quite sure how much help they did offer. But they used to be very helpful if memory serves. But we shall hold our BSD/OS CD's high and say we once ran the most stable secure *cough* OS ever. Thanks for everything WindRiver, and your coder team. Sincerely, Scott M. Likens From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 14:20:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397A716A4BF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7D843F85 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ALKAQw080570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:20:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)h8ALK9SP080569; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:20:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ALJHKY006878; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:19:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8ALJGVj006877; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:19:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:19:16 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20030910211916.GA6857@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:20:15 -0000 On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 02:03:43PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Andreas Klemm writes: > > 2 or 3 years I installed a RedHat for testing ... well the > > basic installation didn't contain even "sed". > > I very much doubt that, as sed(1) is required by POSIX. I'm absolutely sure about that. > > I even dislike that UUCP had to go into ports ... Now you don't > > have a standard tool in standard OS install like cu to connect > > to serial ports what need for job in the networking area. > > When UUCP was removed, tip(1) was hacked to understand cu(1)'s > command-line syntax, so we still have cu(1). I use it every day. Good you mention it. I completely forgot tip ... ;-) Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 16:43:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0E416A4BF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED66943FDD for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003091023434001600o9q04e>; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:43:41 +0000 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:43:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Bill Moran In-Reply-To: <3F5F347F.1070308@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <20030910164308.X35663@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> <3F5F347F.1070308@potentialtech.com> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: "Alan B. Clegg" Subject: Re: WindRiver terminates BSD/OS product X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:43:42 -0000 On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Bill Moran wrote: > I don't know if I'm the only one curious about the effects this will have > on things ... So small that it will be difficult to measure, if any at all. -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 10 17:05:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DEF116A4BF for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D6043FE3 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04644; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:05:01 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030910180250.03288ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:03:28 -0600 To: Bill Moran , "Alan B. Clegg" From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <3F5F347F.1070308@potentialtech.com> References: <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> <20030910140819.GF59842@shazam.wetworks.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WindRiver terminates BSD/OS product X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:05:26 -0000 At 08:26 AM 9/10/2003, Bill Moran wrote: >I don't know if I'm the only one curious about the effects this will have >on things ... I'd like to know if Wind River will release any of the code for reuse. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 11 00:04:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4F116A4C0; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F5443FD7; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj4m.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.150] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xLSM-0005R4-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:01:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3F601C70.D97697E8@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:55:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47262c2f2c9a313151d2e329c9f3a7ba6a8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:04:16 -0000 Ah, -chat! Well known for religious discussions... Andreas Klemm wrote: > On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 12:11:06AM +0200, Alex de Kruijff wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 08:50:10AM +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > Christer, > > > > > > I think its a bad idea to remove components from FreeBSD that > > > everybody would expect in a BSD. > > > > I think there has to be a clear reason if components where removed. This > > still doesn't mean that it couldn't come installed by default. It just > > meant useing the package / port system. Why sould we not use it? > > Because breaking BSD into too many little pieces has contra > productive side effects... > > All components that you put into the ports system are not > directly maintained by the FreeBSD committers anymore. That's just historical cruft; you might call it "traditional" to throw something into ports, so that the people who want to get rid of it can pretend that "someone" is going to maintain it, going forward, when really what they want to do is get rid of it, but they can't do it honestly, without pissing people off, so they do it dishonestly by moving it to a port. History doesn't have to repeat itself forever, though; there's no reason you can't replace the Makefile in /usr/src/bin/sh with one that includes bsd.port.mk instead of bsd.prog.mk. In other words, there's no reason to move something that goes into a ports-type build system out of the main repository, except that it ruins the fun of the people who want to be able to throw things away by making them ports, and pretending that that means that they are automatically removed from the main source base by the repo-fairy as a direct consequence of them including the wrong 3 letters following the 'p' in their Makefile. > Don't forget that not all port committers are FreeBSD committers. It doesn't matter. We're talking about changing Makefile's, not removing things from the repository entirely just because of some preconceived prejudice about how they're built. In fact, mostly we don't give a damn about the "port" part of things, we are much, much more interested in the "package" aspects, in terms of being able to pkg_delete pats of the base system, or pkg_add them back in, when we decide that the shiny new GPL'ed version of whatsis from Linux isn't so shiny or so new as we first thought, and we want our BSD version back. > You need more experience in coding if you maintain a complete > OS then to make something to fit under ports control to make > it simply run. > > If the software is under CVS control, then many eyes watch the > code from time to time by software review and such .... Nobody is talking about changing any of that. > And as I said, if I make a complete OS installation then I > expect to get a complete OS in the first place. Nobody's talking about changing defaults, either... only about providing more options than were previously there. > And with a complete OS I mean a BSD with its roots and tradition > so that at least it contains all those bits and bytes, that usually > every commercial OS / BSD has or that has been in it since years ! You mean like UUCP and XNS networking, right? 8-) 8-). > 2 or 3 years I installed a RedHat for testing ... well the > basic installation didn't contain even "sed". > > And things like this I strongly dislike. We all agree: RedHat's choices in defaults for meta-package dependency lists for bas installations using default options are terrible. So don't copy their model when you build *your* meta-package dependency list for your base system package, and it's not a problem you have to worry about. > I even dislike that UUCP had to go into ports ... Now you don't > have a standard tool in standard OS install like cu to connect > to serial ports what need for job in the networking area. It pissed all of us off. > But at that time nobody wanted to take care of it, so it has to > go out of CVS not to produce bitrod. You mean "no one to who FreeBSD was willing to grant commit bits wanted to take care of it". And there is no such thing as "bitrot", there are only people who fail to maintain all the code that is impacted by their changes to their pet subsystems. That's also what happened to LFS, when the unified VM and buffer cache went in: a failure to maintain the code while making changes. It used to be that the BSD credo was "if you break it, you now own it, and it's your responsibility to fix it". > > > I think you touch areas here like tradition ... > > > > > > In Linux its another thing, they don't have such a tradition, > > > since Linux is only a kernel and Linux never defined a Linux > > > basde system. So there you can discuss of having sendmail, > > > exim, postfix or qmail installed by default or not. > > > > The way the kernel is related to the distribution is totaly irrelevant. > > If you looking for traditions here they sould be in the various > > distributions. > > What I mean with tradition is, that an Operating System exists > since a long time and you are used to expect this and that in > it ... > > And I repeat, Linux is only a kernel, therefore every distribution > maker can't have something like a "normal tradition" since Linux > never defined something like a base system for Linux. > > The effects are as I described, missing sed in standard installation > like red hat and bloated installations all around. Many different > flavours of tools in the different Linux installations. > > Though the BSD also differ in much things I have the feeling that > they are still much closer to each other than the many many Linuxes > I played with in the past: Slackware, RedHat, SuSE, Knoppix, Gentoo, > Debian. Here I absolutely, 100%, totally agree with Andreas. If you want a default other than the traditional BSD default, then it's up to you to create your own *non-default* meta-package list to use with your installs. And yes, I'd list UUCP in the default meta-package list, and the people who want it to stay in coventry can create *their* version of a meta-package list to use with *their* installs. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 11 00:05:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C5316A4BF; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719C243FD7; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj4m.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.150] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xLWW-0006KR-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:05:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3F601E8F.D67D79F5@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:04:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47262c2f2c9a3131531ea4efe1161e6bc93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:05:52 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Andreas Klemm writes: > > I even dislike that UUCP had to go into ports ... Now you don't > > have a standard tool in standard OS install like cu to connect > > to serial ports what need for job in the networking area. > = > When UUCP was removed, tip(1) was hacked to understand cu(1)'s > command-line syntax, so we still have cu(1). I use it every day. FYI, UUCP is also required by POSIX 1003.1-2003 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/utilities/uucp.html It's part of the [XSI] subset, which is required for compliance with the Single UNIX Specification. If FreeBSD wants certification someday, it will have to bring back UUCP. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 11 00:25:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B3616A4BF for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A8A43FF5 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@freebsd.org) Received: from 12-234-22-23.client.attbi.com ([12.234.22.23]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20030911072458012001d7kse>; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:24:58 +0000 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:24:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: <3F601E8F.D67D79F5@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20030911002353.C38429@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <3F601E8F.D67D79F5@mindspring.com> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:25:00 -0000 On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > If FreeBSD wants certification someday, it will have to bring back > UUCP. .... or wait for a version of the spec that doesn't require 80's technology. :) Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 11 00:51:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21C716A4BF for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF50343FA3 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:51:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj4m.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.150] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xMEU-0001aq-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3F602926.E81D0CAD@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:49:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drhodus@catpa.com References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <3F601E8F.D67D79F5@mindspring.com> <1063264693.3f6021b5527e8@www.catpa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a41a032f06ce40e8bcf69b65f031879e6f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:51:22 -0000 drhodus@catpa.com wrote: > > FYI, UUCP is also required by POSIX 1003.1-2003 > > > > http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/utilities/uucp.html > > > > It's part of the [XSI] subset, which is required for compliance > > with the Single UNIX Specification. If FreeBSD wants certification > > someday, it will have to bring back UUCP. > > Perhaps this only shows that the POSIX standards should not be > looked at anymore and a new standards group is needed..... I'll be happy to switch, as soon as you form your new standards group, get it accepted internationally by international standards bodies, and then get your standard on the GSA schedule as being an allowable product purchase in lieu of POSIX when bidding on government contracts. 8-) 8-). When you do this, perhaps we can rip the assinine System V signal non-restart behaviour, System V instead of BSD tty dissociation code that makes us have to check return codes on reads after a tty is revoked rather than just taking a SIGHUP from our parent, and System V behaviour when closing one of several open instances of a file, when there are advisory locks outstanding on a descriptor other than the one you are closing. Doing this would *vastly* simplify our threads libraries, FWIW, and cut by 300% the number of real system calls per wrappered call that needed to be made *each and every wrappered call* in libc_r (hint: mask_signals/call/unmask_signals). At the same time, maybe we could fix the fact that multiple fd's open on the same file, and resulting from fork/fcntl(,F_DUP)/dup/dup2 all share the same structure, so that if one process modifies the file offset, all of the others end up getting the modified offset, instead of their own offset. BTW, all this cruft and more were concessions to POSIX conformance, vs. The Traditional BSD Way Of Doing Things. Maybe we could make people use mmap() and rendezvous via a file, in order to obtain shared memory, instead of wiring down kernel maps and using up precious kernel resources with shmget/shmat, while we're at it. Typing up all the cruft that came in with the tacit requirement for POSIX conformance would be enough to make even my fingers tired... but I recognize the need for standards conformance, so if all you have is an ugly standard, well, it's better than no standard at all, or a mythical not-yet-standard standard. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 11 00:51:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBDB16A4BF; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA6F43FCB; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8B7piVP057479; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:51:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F601C70.D97697E8@mindspring.com> References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <3F601C70.D97697E8@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:50:50 +0200 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:51:47 -0000 At 11:55 PM -0700 2003/09/10, Terry Lambert wrote: > It used to be that the BSD credo was > "if you break it, you now own it, and it's your responsibility to > fix it". For as long as I've been involved with FreeBSD, the approach that I've always heard applied was instead: If you complain about it, it's your responsibility to fix it. Maybe that's the disconnect. Maybe we need to go back to the older style, which I have never personally encountered with regards to FreeBSD. However, that would have to be enforced by -core, and they'd have to agree to live up that standard themselves. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 11 00:56:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F9716A4BF; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67FE043F75; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfj4m.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.204.150] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xMJx-0002EE-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:56:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3F602A76.CE95F629@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:55:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <20030911002353.C38429@12-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4eb483da794001235fdc548f3a39bee3c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:56:55 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, Terry Lambert wrote: > > If FreeBSD wants certification someday, it will have to bring back > > UUCP. > > .... or wait for a version of the spec that doesn't require 80's > technology. :) You mean 1980's technology like synchronous system call entry that requires an explicit process or thread argument to hang all its continuations on? Oh wait, you can't mean that, because VMS had asynchronous system traps back in the 1980's; it's been over 20 years, and it seems that the only OS we've been willing to learn from is the one we started out biased towards... Maybe you mean 1980's technology, like a single priviledge binder called "root" or "superuser". Oh wait, you can't mean that, because that's *1970's* technology... If I'd has my way in 1994, POSIX would be a user-space library... and almost no one would be linking it into their code. 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 12 00:42:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE50916A4BF for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp08.wxs.nl (smtp08.wxs.nl [195.121.6.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D5A43FF5 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from akruijff@kruij557.speed.planet.nl) Received: from kruij557.speed.planet.nl (ipd50a97ba.speed.planet.nl [213.10.151.186])18chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:40:54 +0200 (MEST) Received: from Intranet.lan (akruijff@localhost [127.0.0.1]) h8AGNA7p052110 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:23:10 +0200 (CEST envelope-from akruijff@Intranet.lan) Received: (from akruijff@localhost) by Intranet.lan (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8AGNANG052109 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:23:10 +0200 (CEST envelope-from akruijff) Resent-date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:23:10 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:22:10 +0200 Resent-From: akruijff@dds.nl From: Alex de Kruijff In-reply-to: <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> Resent-To: chat@freebsd.org To: Andreas Klemm Resent-message-id: <200309101623.h8AGNANG052109@Intranet.lan> Message-id: <20030910162210.GC31532@dds.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:42:10 -0000 On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 12:48:07PM +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 12:11:06AM +0200, Alex de Kruijff wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 08:50:10AM +0200, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > Christer, > > > > > > I think its a bad idea to remove components from FreeBSD that > > > everybody would expect in a BSD. > > > > I think there has to be a clear reason if components where removed. This > > still doesn't mean that it couldn't come installed by default. It just > > meant useing the package / port system. Why sould we not use it? > > Because breaking BSD into too many little pieces has contra > productive side effects... The cause of these are not the port system in it self. They all can be solved if one is willing to do so. I didn't see a reason that could not be easly solved. If i read you correct you conserns are: 1. Having a system without applications installed that have bin there a long time. 2. Having applications that are mainstream not mainted by FreeBSD committers. 3. Having applications that are mainstream not mainted by experianced programmers. 1) Having a application in the ports doesn't mean it should not be part of the base install. A used might expect a full OS, including sed, but doesn't realy care how he got it. 2) Its seemt to me that application will become ports when FreeBSD commiters dont want to maintain them. This doesn't mean that there are no FreeBSD commiters that would want to maintain a FreeBSD port. Ports just have the potential of being maintained by other people. This however does not have to be a oblication. 3) There more experianced programmers out there than the FreeBSD team. Having a port means having a larger pool of programmers. This include the good as well as the bad ones. (I cut your text if I feld you objection was in the points above.) > You need more experience in coding if you maintain a complete > OS then to make something to fit under ports control to make > it simply run. I fail to see you point here. > If the software is under CVS control, then many eyes watch the > code from time to time by software review and such .... The are planty examples of code that is under CVS control and still is in the port system. Samba is one of them. This could also be true for other applications. > > > I think you touch areas here like tradition ... > > > > > > In Linux its another thing, they don't have such a tradition, > > > since Linux is only a kernel and Linux never defined a Linux > > > basde system. So there you can discuss of having sendmail, > > > exim, postfix or qmail installed by default or not. > > > > The way the kernel is related to the distribution is totaly irrelevant. > > If you looking for traditions here they sould be in the various > > distributions. > > What I mean with tradition is, that an Operating System exists > since a long time and you are used to expect this and that in > it ... > > And I repeat, Linux is only a kernel, therefore every distribution > maker can't have something like a "normal tradition" since Linux > never defined something like a base system for Linux. My point was that a user look at the hole thing. Therefor the way they handle there kernel is irrelevant. I'll bet that most user would point to the disctributions when you asked them what linux whas. > The effects are as I described, missing sed in standard installation > like red hat and bloated installations all around. Many different > flavours of tools in the different Linux installations. > > Though the BSD also differ in much things I have the feeling that > they are still much closer to each other than the many many Linuxes > I played with in the past: Slackware, RedHat, SuSE, Knoppix, Gentoo, > Debian. I fail to see your point here. -- Alex Articles based on solutions that I use: http://www.kruijff.org/alex/index.php?dir=docs/FreeBSD/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 12 13:54:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05E016A4BF for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chen.org.nz (chen.org.nz [210.54.19.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8804943FE3 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@chen.org.nz) Received: from grimoire.chen.org.nz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chen.org.nz (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKsNIW074418; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:54:23 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jonc@grimoire.chen.org.nz) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by grimoire.chen.org.nz (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8CKsMpt074417; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:54:22 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:54:22 +1200 From: Jonathan Chen To: Alex de Kruijff Message-ID: <20030912205422.GA74285@grimoire.chen.org.nz> References: <3F50C956.70603@carebears.mine.nu> <20030830151544.G21642@znfgre.qbhto.arg> <3F5193E2.8060805@carebears.mine.nu> <20030831065010.GA23179@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030909221106.GA31532@dds.nl> <20030910104807.GB47986@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20030910162210.GC31532@dds.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030910162210.GC31532@dds.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strip FreeBSD a bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:54:32 -0000 On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 06:22:10PM +0200, Alex de Kruijff wrote: [... heaps of stuff ...] No matter how many this comes up, it all boils down to this: 1. More of us like it the way it than those who want to split it up. 2. It ain't going to happen until 1. changes, and that's not likely to happen. -- Jonathan Chen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by" - Douglas Adams From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 12 16:13:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55EA316A4BF for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4.knology.net (smtp4.knology.net [24.214.63.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 42C3043FA3 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 9331 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2003 22:29:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO user-24-214-34-52.knology.net) (24.214.34.52) by smtp4.knology.net with SMTP; 12 Sep 2003 22:29:49 -0000 From: David Kelly To: FreeBSD-Chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:29:47 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <3564C5C1ABA7934FB00B98936C699B05B462BF@exch2000.silogcaen.fr> <200309120618.05357.tbstep@tampabay.rr.com> <3F62382A.5000903@liwing.de> In-Reply-To: <3F62382A.5000903@liwing.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309121729.48024.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Subject: Re: Software patents X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:13:08 -0000 Moved to -chat because this does not belong on -questions. Not that it belongs on FreeBSD.org at all... On Friday 12 September 2003 04:18 pm, Jens Rehsack wrote: > But if any algorithm used in bsd will be patented in europe and > the patent became valid, they may have a problem either. If such a patent were issued in Europe then it would be invalid specifically due to the prior art in BSD. I fail to understand how an invention implemented in software is any less worthy of protection than any other machine. Protest of the patent system is as old as patent history. Same old tired arguments claiming patents somehow stifle creativity. Seemingly a "patented technique" from any text on "How To Lie" is to be loud and first to claim the opposite of fact is true. Copying is not innovation, so claim patents and copyrights are preventing you from innovating. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 12 18:34:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0557816A4BF for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.covadmail.net (mx04.covadmail.net [63.65.120.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D00BB43FD7 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: (covad.net 7601 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2003 01:33:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ice.nodomain) (68.164.194.198) by sun-qmail08 with SMTP; 13 Sep 2003 01:33:54 -0000 Received: from ice.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ice.nodomain (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8D1Xvjt000451; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@ice.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by ice.nodomain (8.12.8p1/8.12.8/Submit) id h8D1XvFs000450; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:33:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200309130133.h8D1XvFs000450@ice.nodomain> To: FreeBSD-Chat@FreeBSD.org cc: dan@ice.nodomain Subject: Re: Software patents X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:34:01 -0000 >>> > >>> > > But if any algorithm used in bsd will be patented in europe and > > the patent became valid, they may have a problem either. > >>> > > If such a patent were issued in Europe then it would be invalid > specifically due to the prior art in BSD. >>> Such a patent would still have to be challenged in patent court with the vast burden of proof falling on the challenger, no matter how obvious the matter might seem to us. This process is very expensive and there is always the possibility that a stupid or biased judge will make a wrong decision. The patent system could cause immense damage to society by granting patents for inventions that are trivial or part of unwritten "prior art." >>> > I fail to understand how an invention implemented in software is any > less worthy of protection than any other machine. >>> It is not, but there is a legal history behind the software patent controversy. U.S. patent law says that ideas are not patentable. Only inventions can be patented. Until a few years ago, the patent office held that software, like a mathematical technique, was an idea and not an invention. To work around this, software inventions used to be described in hardware terms. For example, the famous Unix setuid bit patent gives the strong impression that the feature was implemented with hardware logic gates on a circuit board. I wonder if it got through the system only because the patent examiner had great respect for Bell Labs research and even greater respect for Western Electric lawyers. When the patent office changed its policy towards software, it was only natural that the controversy would arise over the change in policy rather than the intractable real problem, that patents are often granted for trivial inventions. Patent examiners seem to have a rather low standard of innovation, perhaps because they are not experts in the fields for which they grant patents. One of the common arguments against granting software patents is that patent examiners have accumulated little experience in the field. Patent examiners also grant patents for inventions that are silly or cannot possibly work, such as perpetual motion machines. Perhaps patent examiners feel that granting patents for foolish or impossible inventions does no harm and that arguing with patent lawyers is a waste of time. Standard procedure when applying for a patent is to make excessive claims that a patent lawyer can trade away in order to secure the real claims. The validity or worthiness of a claim may have little to do with whether or not it is granted. There are serious problems inside the patent system, but I can't think of any way to fix them. Dan Strick strick@covad.net From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 13 00:57:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447E316A4BF for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.liwing.de (mail.liwing.de [213.70.188.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED8943FF2 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rehsack@liwing.de) Received: (qmail 61835 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2003 07:57:27 -0000 Received: from stingray.liwing.de (HELO liwing.de) ([213.70.188.164]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.liwing.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Sep 2003 07:57:27 -0000 Message-ID: <3F62CDE7.2080404@liwing.de> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:57:27 +0000 From: Jens Rehsack User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030821 X-Accept-Language: de-de, de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly References: <3564C5C1ABA7934FB00B98936C699B05B462BF@exch2000.silogcaen.fr> <200309120618.05357.tbstep@tampabay.rr.com> <3F62382A.5000903@liwing.de> <200309121729.48024.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <200309121729.48024.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD-Chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Software patents X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:57:31 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > Moved to -chat because this does not belong on -questions. Not that it > belongs on FreeBSD.org at all... > > On Friday 12 September 2003 04:18 pm, Jens Rehsack wrote: > >>But if any algorithm used in bsd will be patented in europe and >>the patent became valid, they may have a problem either. > > > If such a patent were issued in Europe then it would be invalid > specifically due to the prior art in BSD. Not surely, because the new law should allow to respect patents which are issued years ago. > I fail to understand how an invention implemented in software is any > less worthy of protection than any other machine. You speak exactly what I think. But I know also, those patent laws as they should committed this month are dangerous. Not even all is worth to be protected. > Protest of the patent system is as old as patent history. Same old tired > arguments claiming patents somehow stifle creativity. Seemingly a > "patented technique" from any text on "How To Lie" is to be loud and > first to claim the opposite of fact is true. Copying is not innovation, > so claim patents and copyrights are preventing you from innovating. Oh yes, I know. I own 1 patent and I leaded the development of a new kind of software. If software patents will be possible, I think the company I'm working in will try to protect the major idea of the software, too. But we are - what are the right words - not interested in hurting free developers as other were (I've read about several issues between big companies and one man software projects where big companies sued them for hundreds of thousands of dollars). We're interested in collecting enough money for the next project. So you don't have to argue pro software patents to me, I know their advantages very well. But I can also see the danger it going out from them in hands of companies as IBM, Siemens, Freiherr Guenther von Grafenreuth, ... Best regards, Jens