From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 04:58:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A12216A4CE for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 04:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A27343FE3 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 04:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031123125811.YWAL1561.mta9.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:58:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3FC0AEDF.1010509@potentialtech.com> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:58:07 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex de Kruijff References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> <3FA8EFA1.7020507@potentialtech.com> <20031123035509.GG532@dds.nl> In-Reply-To: <20031123035509.GG532@dds.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:58:10 -0000 Alex de Kruijff wrote: >>Well, that I can understand. It follow what I said about many cyclists >>not obeying the rules of the road. Professional cyclists > > Whats a professional cyclist? Someone who rides their bike as part of their job. Like a racer, or a bicycle messenger. Much the difference between the average driver and one who drives a car as part of his job (cab driver, or truck driver). > Here every one has at least one bike. > Children as young as 6 ride then. And by the time there 12 there riding > one there own to a school in a neerby city. I've ridden a bike pretty much all my life. 6 sounds like the right age to start. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 06:58:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C7A16A4CF for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp07.wxs.nl (smtp07.wxs.nl [195.121.6.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 976BC43FCB for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:58:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from akruijff@www.kruijff.org) Received: from kruij557.speed.planet.nl (ipd50a97ba.speed.planet.nl [213.10.151.186])18chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:54:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from Alex.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kruij557.speed.planet.nl (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hANErMLU000638; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:53:22 +0100 (CET envelope-from akruijff@Alex.lan) Received: (from akruijff@localhost) by Alex.lan (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id hANErMU9000637; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:53:22 +0100 (CET envelope-from akruijff) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:53:21 +0100 From: Alex de Kruijff In-reply-to: <20031123044516.GA734@online.fr> To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-id: <20031123145321.GA557@dds.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA7FEA7.80205@potentialtech.com> <20031104201324.GA2654@online.fr> <20031108041538.GA806@online.fr> <20031123033759.GF532@dds.nl> <20031123044516.GA734@online.fr> cc: Brad Knowles cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:58:57 -0000 On Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 11:45:16PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Alex de Kruijff said on Nov 23, 2003 at 04:37:59: > > Now also because of political reason. Everyone needs to be integraded > > (fit in) in to the population. This not only means you have to learn > > Dutch. It also means you have to take part in local activities, like > > celibrating 'Sinterklaas', which is the holy person for the sailors. > > This includes standing in a harbor when he arives on a boat from Spain > > early novemeber, when its freezing and poring down on you. > > I doubt they can force you to take part, but I'm sure Americans would > find it quite amusing, Sinterklaas is quite similar (in role and in > costume) to Santa Claus if I remember right. The Santa Claus idea is based up on Sinterklaas. Everything is a bit different but sill similair. > > The smoke-room chat is going to be banned by potitics starting 2004. > > I presume you mean the smoke will be banned, not the room or the chat, > and by health regulations not by politics. It's about time. Yes the room isn't banned just smoking in it. The idea is that everybody has a right to a heathy envermoent. Since the politic system determen what the laws are, the poilicians have decided this. -- Alex Articles based on solutions that I use: http://www.kruijff.org/alex/index.php?dir=docs/FreeBSD/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 08:46:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D007316A4CE for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19A843FDF for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from akruijff@www.kruijff.org) Received: from kruij557.speed.planet.nl (ipd50a97ba.speed.planet.nl [213.10.151.186]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HOT00ECED8NGI@smtp01.wxs.nl> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:45:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from Alex.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kruij557.speed.planet.nl (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hANGjxLU001137; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:45:59 +0100 (CET envelope-from akruijff@Alex.lan) Received: (from akruijff@localhost) by Alex.lan (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id hANGjx1X001136; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:45:59 +0100 (CET envelope-from akruijff) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:45:59 +0100 From: Alex de Kruijff In-reply-to: <20031101205412.GA15226@bishop.my.domain> To: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20031123164558.GB557@dds.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i References: <3FA301F6.2010208@potentialtech.com> <20031101175942.GA2082@online.fr> <20031101205412.GA15226@bishop.my.domain> Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:46:01 -0000 On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 03:54:12PM -0500, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 12:59:42PM -0500, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Bill Moran wrote: > > > I've always had a uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that C++ > > > and other OO languages were more complicated than they needed to be. > > > > I could never get figure out C++, the syntax was too complex for me, > > maybe I never approached it the right way. (Same problem with perl.) > > > > On the other hand, a few months ago I tried out python and it was love > > at first sight. Initially I was writing stuff in a procedural way but > > I'm beginning to grok OO ideas now and it seems to all just make sense. > > I wish there was a good compiler for it though, speed is important in a > > lot of the things I do. Subsequently, I also dabbled in lisp a bit, > > does anyone use it these days for serious new projects (as opposed to > > emacs/maxima/other ancient stuff)? > > > > Quoted on http://www.smalltalk.org : > > > > "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have > > C++ in mind." - Alan Kay > > > > - Rahul > > I'm a non-programmer. Is it the OO languages that talk about > "methods" when it looks like they're talking about something like > functions, or is that something else? You are correct. In OO languages the function and data are one unit where as in the the traditional programma there are seperate. -- Alex Articles based on solutions that I use: http://www.kruijff.org/alex/index.php?dir=docs/FreeBSD/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 12:15:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA97316A4CE; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746B243FCB; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:15:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 2DD7F5309; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:15:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 2AFA35308; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:15:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id CBCCE33C86; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:15:43 +0100 (CET) To: chat@freebsd.org References: <200311231604.hANG4iCV042391@spider.deepcore.dk> <20031123191900.GA2176@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 21:15:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031123191900.GA2176@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> (Andreas Klemm's message of "Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:19:00 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: ss X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.5 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: Soren Schmidt cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: printing problems lpr/lpd misbehavior ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:15:54 -0000 Andreas Klemm writes: > q: What makes cups so special that one should try it out ? > What can it do better than apsfilter which IMHO isn't as bloated > as cups and has better features... apsfilter is in my experience a lot more difficult and confusing to configure, and I don't think I ever figured out how to do things like switch duplex on / off etc. CUPS has a web-based configuration interface which is very simple to use. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 12:48:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8926216A4CE for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from tinker.exit.com (tinker.exit.com [206.223.0.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7A543F93 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) Received: from realtime.exit.com (realtime [206.223.0.5]) by tinker.exit.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hANKlreC007556; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:47:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) Received: from realtime.exit.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by realtime.exit.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hANKlr68055817; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:47:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank@realtime.exit.com) Received: (from frank@localhost) by realtime.exit.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id hANKllHo055816; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frank) From: Frank Mayhar Message-Id: <200311232047.hANKllHo055816@realtime.exit.com> In-Reply-To: To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-Copyright0: Copyright 2003 Frank Mayhar. All Rights Reserved. X-Copyright1: Permission granted for electronic reproduction as Usenet News or email only. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99f (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UNKNOWN-8BIT cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Soren Schmidt Subject: Re: printing problems lpr/lpd misbehavior ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: frank@exit.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:48:02 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Andreas Klemm writes: > > q: What makes cups so special that one should try it out ? > > What can it do better than apsfilter which IMHO isn't as bloated > > as cups and has better features... > apsfilter is in my experience a lot more difficult and confusing to > configure, and I don't think I ever figured out how to do things like > switch duplex on / off etc. CUPS has a web-based configuration > interface which is very simple to use. It's also pretty cool that you configure the printers on their various systems and every other system running cups picks them up automatically. I discovered this after I had configured cups on my print system and then installed it on my laptop. All I had to do was a portinstall and start the daemon and it just worked. I _like_ that. -- Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 14:22:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5CE16A4CE for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from av1.stonline.sk (av1.stonline.sk [213.81.152.32]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE35643F93 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danger@wilbury.sk) Received: from smtp.stonline.sk ([192.168.4.63]) by av1.stonline.sk (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hANMMCZi024310 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:22:13 +0100 Received: from telecom-213-195-111.telecom.sk (telecom-213-195-111.telecom.sk [213.81.195.111]) by smtp2.stonline.sk (STOnline ESMTP Server)freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:22:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:22:38 +0100 From: DanGer In-reply-to: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <200311232322.38705.danger@wilbury.sk> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200311231604.hANG4iCV042391@spider.deepcore.dk> X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (av1.stonline.sk) Subject: CUPS problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: danger@wilbury.sk List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:22:17 -0000 i have installed CUPS on my computer which is running FBSD4.9 release. when i started cupsd and connected to localhost:631 and wanted to add new printer there was a screen with name location and description. i filled in all and then pressed continue and than i got: Request Entity Too Large The request is too large for this server to process. I dont know what does this mean, have you some ideas why it doesent works? Thank you. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 23 17:40:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8669116A4CE for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (user-0cdfenm.cable.mindspring.com [24.215.186.246]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EE6443FD7 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:40:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: (qmail 8242 invoked by uid 1002); 24 Nov 2003 01:40:45 -0000 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:40:45 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Duncan Barclay Message-ID: <20031124014045.GA8152@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <017701c3b21f$f39bf340$43c8a8c0@orac> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unfortunate dynamic linking for everything X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:40:48 -0000 <3FBC2053.6040208@mindspring.com><20031120022009.GB29530@dan.emsphone.com> <3FBC29EF.3030009@mindspring.com><3FBC50DB.3000002@acm.org> <20031123225117.GA24696@dragon.nuxi.com><017701c3b21f$f39bf340$43c8a8c0@orac> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20 i686 Duncan Barclay wrote: > From: "David O'Brien" > > > I'll seriously argue against the 2nd point above. I don't know of a > > SINGLE person that uses /bin/sh as their interactive shell when > > multi-user. Not ONE. Every Bourne shell'ish user I've ever met > > uses > > Bash, AT&T ksh, pdksh, zsh. > > I don't know anyone that farms lama's, so there cannot be any lama > farmers. I very much doubt there are any. "The one-l lama is a priest The two-l llama is a beast And I will bet a silk pajama You'll never see a three-l lllama" -- Ogden Nash. - Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 25 14:39:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F6816A4CF for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.covadmail.net (mx05.covadmail.net [63.65.120.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFDFD44059 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from strick@covad.net) Received: (covad.net 29465 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2003 22:39:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mist.nodomain) (67.101.100.135) by sun-qmail14 with SMTP; 25 Nov 2003 22:39:38 -0000 Received: from mist.nodomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mist.nodomain (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id hAPMdTa5000478; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:39:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mist.nodomain) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mist.nodomain (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id hAPMdTuh000477; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:39:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:39:29 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Strick Message-Id: <200311252239.hAPMdTuh000477@mist.nodomain> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: 10th Anniversary Live Bootable CD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:39:57 -0000 Has anyone tried out the FreeBSD 10th Anniversary Live Bootable CD given out last night at the FreeBSD 10th Anniversary party in San Francisco? I was hoping it would make a convenient emergency fixit CD and be a good FreeBSD advocacy tool. I gave it a spin this morning. It spit out disconcerting warning and error messages while booting, required some manual configuration during bootstrap, was missing a lot of programs needed for system repairs (e.g. boot0cfg), required some fudging to fsck a ufs file system and pasting into an xterm using the middle mouse button didn't work. Worse, the CD is too small to use as a coaster. Has anyone had a better experience? (Note: I don't intend this as a serious complaint. After all, it was a freebie. However, I was somewhat disappointed.) Dan Strick strick@covad.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 25 14:50:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBA116A4CE for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3433343F3F for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:50:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hAPMhPAS051101; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id hAPMhOlZ051099; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matto) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 14:43:24 -0800 From: Matt Olander To: Dan Strick Message-ID: <20031125144324.A50916@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <200311252239.hAPMdTuh000477@mist.nodomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200311252239.hAPMdTuh000477@mist.nodomain>; from strick@covad.net on Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 02:39:29PM -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: dan@mist.nodomain Subject: Re: 10th Anniversary Live Bootable CD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:50:13 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 02:39:29PM -0800, Dan Strick wrote: > Has anyone tried out the FreeBSD 10th Anniversary Live Bootable CD given > out last night at the FreeBSD 10th Anniversary party in San Francisco? > I was hoping it would make a convenient emergency fixit CD and be a good > FreeBSD advocacy tool. I gave it a spin this morning. It spit out > disconcerting warning and error messages while booting, required some > manual configuration during bootstrap, was missing a lot of programs > needed for system repairs (e.g. boot0cfg), required some fudging to > fsck a ufs file system and pasting into an xterm using the middle > mouse button didn't work. hey Dan, we made it more as a novelty and portable desktop than a fixit. that's why we were also giving out full FreeBSD box sets too ;) honestly, we didn't really have alot of time but we tested it on quite a few systems and it worked pretty well. the slightly manual X config is so it will work on more systems than not. it's definitely going to be a work in progress and we're thinking of doing a couple of different versions, such as a fixit and a desktop. > Worse, the CD is too small to use as a coaster. not if your drinking a glass of port ;) > Has anyone had a better experience? > > (Note: I don't intend this as a serious complaint. After all, it was > a freebie. However, I was somewhat disappointed.) as I said, that's our first version and Seth Kingsley did put alot of work into it, but we didn't have much time before the party. I expect it will get much better before it gets worse. -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 25 18:27:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06CB16A4CE for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EC143FD7 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfn2m.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.220.86] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AOpNy-00010Z-00; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 18:26:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3FC4086B.99216BD4@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:56:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> <3FC0AEDF.1010509@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4de0e922ed0c7ffeb99e3c9d86687a0f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:27:40 -0000 Bill Moran wrote: > Alex de Kruijff wrote: > >>Well, that I can understand. It follow what I said about many cyclists > >>not obeying the rules of the road. Professional cyclists > > > > Whats a professional cyclist? > > Someone who rides their bike as part of their job. Like a racer, or a > bicycle messenger. Much the difference between the average driver and > one who drives a car as part of his job (cab driver, or truck driver). "Professional cyclist" is code for something else. I think it's like "motorist"; i.e. if you drive a car, and are stopped by the cops, and you have no visible means of support, are a convicted felon, are high on something, and are otherwise indigent, rather than calling you "unemployed intoxicated indigent convicted felon so-and-so", the news media will call you "motorist so-and-so", to avoid being politically incorrect. The media has to do this to avoid biasing the general public against the other unemployed intoxicated indigent convicted felons, which would, but for the media bias, be invited into peoples homes on a regular basis to play Scrabble or Pictionary (but not Monopoly, since playing that would be just plain insensitive). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 25 19:27:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A1616A4CE for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A0B43FB1 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0573133CA3; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAPFS1j1040389; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:28:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAPFS0GN040388; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:28:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:28:00 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: Erik Trulsson Message-ID: <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: Erik Trulsson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031027200046.33CF516A4DB@hub.freebsd.org> <20031027214510.GA52000@kosmos.mynet> <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 03:27:34 -0000 [I brought this message to freebsd-chat, becuase the discussion is off- topic for -ports] On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: :On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 01:44:26AM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: :> On 0, Roman Neuhauser wrote: : : :> :> :> > The skill sets are mutually exclusive. :> :> : :> :> : aha. you can't possess skill in both skiing and driving. the skill :> :> : sets are mutually exclusive. eh? :> :> :> :> Yep. Skiiing is not driving, and driving is not skiiing. :> :> They require mutually exclusive skill sets. :> : :> : Perhaps it's just my poor English (ESL speaker here, beware!) but :> : doesn't "exclude" imply "to prevent the other from existing"? At :> : least the online Merriam-Webster would make me believe so. :> :> No. It just means they are separate entities, not dependent on one :> another. You could argue systems administration depends on you ability :> to program. You could also argue it doesn't. My problem is with the :> definition of systems administration. : :Wrong. If two things are mutually exclusive that does mean that you :can have either the one, or the other, but not both at the same time. I am not disagreeing with that. But time is peripheral to the argument. Minus time, skill set A is not skill set B. :I can't imagine any situation in which two skill sets could be mutually :exclusive, since that would mean that knowing one set of skills would :actually prevent you from knowing the other set of skills, which would :be very strange indeed. : :(Knowing how to ski does not prevent you from knowing how to drive, and :knowing how to drive does not prevent from knowing how to ski, thus :they are not mutually exclusive skills.) Knowing one set of skills does not necessarily preclude knowlege of the other. In fact, one often complements the other. But that is ouside the scope of the argument. :What you apparently tried to convey was that the skill sets are :"completely separate", "non-overlapping", or "independent of each :other". None of which is equivalent to "mutually exclusive". The following (from a probablility text at Rice) might suffice for the sake of this question. http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lane/hyperstat/A132677.html "Two events are mutually exclusive if it is not possible for both of them to occur. For example, if a die is rolled, the event "getting a 1" and the event "getting a 2" are mutually exclusive since it is not possible for the die to be both a one and a two on the same roll. The occurrence of one event "excludes" the possibility of the other event." Can you agree with this? Minus time, you should be able to see that the skill sets of system administration skills and programming are mutually exclusive. The two activities are so distinct, that you cannot do both at the same time. You can be a sysadmin with great programming skills. But when you write code to automate systems administration tasks, you are programming. You can be a programmer with great system administration skills. But when you format a drive, write firewall rules, configure software, monitor services and vendor equipment, etc., you are doing systems administration. : :Here endeth todays English lesson. : I think this problem has more to do with communication than with English. -- Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Never put off till tomorrow what you can avoid all together. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 25 22:19:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D1D16A4CE for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.midgard.homeip.net (h201n1fls24o1048.bredband.comhem.se [212.181.162.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A49543F93 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ertr1013@student.uu.se) Received: (qmail 9539 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Nov 2003 06:19:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:19:32 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20031027214510.GA52000@kosmos.mynet> <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:19:36 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 07:28:00AM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: > [I brought this message to freebsd-chat, becuase the discussion is off- > topic for -ports] > > On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: > :On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 01:44:26AM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: > :> On 0, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > : > : > :> :> :> > The skill sets are mutually exclusive. > :> :> : > :> :> : aha. you can't possess skill in both skiing and driving. the skill > :> :> : sets are mutually exclusive. eh? > :> :> > :> :> Yep. Skiiing is not driving, and driving is not skiiing. > :> :> They require mutually exclusive skill sets. > :> : > :> : Perhaps it's just my poor English (ESL speaker here, beware!) but > :> : doesn't "exclude" imply "to prevent the other from existing"? At > :> : least the online Merriam-Webster would make me believe so. > :> > :> No. It just means they are separate entities, not dependent on one > :> another. You could argue systems administration depends on you ability > :> to program. You could also argue it doesn't. My problem is with the > :> definition of systems administration. > : > :Wrong. If two things are mutually exclusive that does mean that you > :can have either the one, or the other, but not both at the same time. > > I am not disagreeing with that. But time is peripheral to the argument. > Minus time, skill set A is not skill set B. But that merely means that they are different, not that they are mutually exclusive. > > :I can't imagine any situation in which two skill sets could be mutually > :exclusive, since that would mean that knowing one set of skills would > :actually prevent you from knowing the other set of skills, which would > :be very strange indeed. > : > :(Knowing how to ski does not prevent you from knowing how to drive, and > :knowing how to drive does not prevent from knowing how to ski, thus > :they are not mutually exclusive skills.) > > Knowing one set of skills does not necessarily preclude knowlege of the > other. In fact, one often complements the other. But that is ouside the > scope of the argument. But the only possible way I can interpret the statement "The skill sets are mutually exclusive." is that knowing one skill set precludes knowing the other. That is what that statement means. > > :What you apparently tried to convey was that the skill sets are > :"completely separate", "non-overlapping", or "independent of each > :other". None of which is equivalent to "mutually exclusive". > > The following (from a probablility text at Rice) might suffice for the > sake of this question. > > http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lane/hyperstat/A132677.html > > "Two events are mutually exclusive if it is not possible for both of them > to occur. For example, if a die is rolled, the event "getting a 1" and > the event "getting a 2" are mutually exclusive since it is not possible > for the die to be both a one and a two on the same roll. The occurrence > of one event "excludes" the possibility of the other event." > > Can you agree with this? Sure, that is pretty much the standard definition of "mutually exclusive", and is essentially equivalent to the definition I gave above. > > Minus time, you should be able to see that the skill sets of system > administration skills and programming are mutually exclusive. The two > activities are so distinct, that you cannot do both at the same time. And here lies the linguistical problem with your argumentation. First you state that you cannot have both skills at the same time (this is what is meant by saying that they are mutually exclusive.) Then you state that you cannot actually use both skills at the same time. These two statements are not equivalent. So what you are trying to say is *not* that the skill sets are mutually exclusive (even if that is what you actually said), but rather that one cannot use both skill sets at the same time. These are two quite different things. (You can know how to drive at the same time as you know how to ski, thus the skill sets themselves are not mutually exclusive. However you cannot drive and ski at the same time, so the *usage* of the skills are mutually exclusive.) Now over to your actual argument. > > You can be a sysadmin with great programming skills. But when you write > code to automate systems administration tasks, you are programming. Writing code to automate a system administration task is programming. It is also system administration. I do not see that these are distinct. > > You can be a programmer with great system administration skills. But > when you format a drive, write firewall rules, configure software, > monitor services and vendor equipment, etc., you are doing systems > administration. Writing firewall rules is a form of programming, as is configuring some pieces of software, and even putting together complex commandlines. These are also all part of system administration. Again I do not see any clear distinction between the two. As you can see I disagree with your notion that system administration and programming are two distinct activities, but rather believe that many tasks fall into both categories at once. > > : > :Here endeth todays English lesson. > : > > I think this problem has more to do with communication than with > English. Maybe, in as much that any erroneous use of language is a communication problem. (In this case you said one thing while believing that what you said meant something other than it did.) -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 05:29:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ECA16A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D13243F85 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 05:29:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-162-175.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.162.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2AC1521C; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:29:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 0AF2F20F2A; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:29:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:28:59 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20031126132859.GN12248@over-yonder.net> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> <3FC0AEDF.1010509@potentialtech.com> <3FC4086B.99216BD4@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FC4086B.99216BD4@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Bill Moran Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:29:05 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 05:56:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > The media has to do this to avoid biasing the general public against > the other unemployed intoxicated indigent convicted felons, which > would, but for the media bias, be invited into peoples homes on a > regular basis to play Scrabble or Pictionary (but not Monopoly, > since playing that would be just plain insensitive). Scrabble in its commonly played form is irrevocably tied to English, which is obviously not very progressive. Most states even give driver's license examinations in multiple languages; it's pretty rude to then restrict /games/. Even taken more broadly, it's still biased toward pretty close derivatives of the Latin alphabet, which is less egregious but even more solid a wall. And Pictionary is even worse because of the subtlety of its exclusion of people not sharing a similar social background. In fact, it's almost a tool of oppression, DISGUISED as a game! The whole point is to make others "lose" simple because they don't have the same experiences and prejudices that YOU do. Take out the self-centricism in your own eye, before complaining about the minor insensitivity in Monopoly's! -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 06:41:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449C116A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta10.adelphia.net (mta10.adelphia.net [68.168.78.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908CB43F75 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 06:41:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta13.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031126141040.MFHY4878.mta13.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com>; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:10:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 09:10:39 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Bowhill References: <20031027200046.33CF516A4DB@hub.freebsd.org> <20031027214510.GA52000@kosmos.mynet> <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> In-Reply-To: <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Erik Trulsson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:41:25 -0000 Allan, I'm not sure if your understanding of the term is wrong, or your understaning of programming/sysadmin is wrong, but: The definition you give of "mutually exclusive" is correct. Your contention that sysadmin and programming skillsets are mutually exclusive is completely unsupportable. They aren't even orthogonal. There are many times a sysadmin resorts to writing quick scripts (programs) in order to do his job, and a programmer with no knowledge of sysadmin is going to write software that is impossible to administer. Even your example of skiing/driving is wrong. These two _are_ orthogonal (meaning they require seperate skillsets not dependent on each other) but they are hardly even close to being mutually exclusive (which would mean that you get to pick one to learn, because you can never then learn the other) I can prove this in the real world because I know people who can both ski and drive. Fact is, I don't think it's possible for a skillset to be mutually exclusive with any other skillset. Philosophies could be. A terrorist philosophy is multutally exclusive with a pacafist philosophy because you can not believe in killing to achieve your means at the same time you believe that violence is always wrong. Does this make sense? Allan Bowhill wrote: > [I brought this message to freebsd-chat, becuase the discussion is off- > topic for -ports] > > On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: > :On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 01:44:26AM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: > :> On 0, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > : > : > :> :> :> > The skill sets are mutually exclusive. > :> :> : > :> :> : aha. you can't possess skill in both skiing and driving. the skill > :> :> : sets are mutually exclusive. eh? > :> :> > :> :> Yep. Skiiing is not driving, and driving is not skiiing. > :> :> They require mutually exclusive skill sets. > :> : > :> : Perhaps it's just my poor English (ESL speaker here, beware!) but > :> : doesn't "exclude" imply "to prevent the other from existing"? At > :> : least the online Merriam-Webster would make me believe so. > :> > :> No. It just means they are separate entities, not dependent on one > :> another. You could argue systems administration depends on you ability > :> to program. You could also argue it doesn't. My problem is with the > :> definition of systems administration. > : > :Wrong. If two things are mutually exclusive that does mean that you > :can have either the one, or the other, but not both at the same time. > > I am not disagreeing with that. But time is peripheral to the argument. > Minus time, skill set A is not skill set B. > > :I can't imagine any situation in which two skill sets could be mutually > :exclusive, since that would mean that knowing one set of skills would > :actually prevent you from knowing the other set of skills, which would > :be very strange indeed. > : > :(Knowing how to ski does not prevent you from knowing how to drive, and > :knowing how to drive does not prevent from knowing how to ski, thus > :they are not mutually exclusive skills.) > > Knowing one set of skills does not necessarily preclude knowlege of the > other. In fact, one often complements the other. But that is ouside the > scope of the argument. > > :What you apparently tried to convey was that the skill sets are > :"completely separate", "non-overlapping", or "independent of each > :other". None of which is equivalent to "mutually exclusive". > > The following (from a probablility text at Rice) might suffice for the > sake of this question. > > http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lane/hyperstat/A132677.html > > "Two events are mutually exclusive if it is not possible for both of them > to occur. For example, if a die is rolled, the event "getting a 1" and > the event "getting a 2" are mutually exclusive since it is not possible > for the die to be both a one and a two on the same roll. The occurrence > of one event "excludes" the possibility of the other event." > > Can you agree with this? > > Minus time, you should be able to see that the skill sets of system > administration skills and programming are mutually exclusive. The two > activities are so distinct, that you cannot do both at the same time. > > You can be a sysadmin with great programming skills. But when you write > code to automate systems administration tasks, you are programming. > > You can be a programmer with great system administration skills. But > when you format a drive, write firewall rules, configure software, > monitor services and vendor equipment, etc., you are doing systems > administration. > > : > :Here endeth todays English lesson. > : > > I think this problem has more to do with communication than with > English. > -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 08:51:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A5C16A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530C743FE5 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:51:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from db@heceta.db.net) Received: from db by heceta.db.net with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.8) id 1AP2sc-000Hg8-Fh; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:51:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:51:06 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126165106.GA67946@heceta.db.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Ottawa area bsd pizza night X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:51:09 -0000 Hi, The first pizza night was a success, so we decided to have one on the second Thursday of each month. For Ottawa (Ontario Canada) and area bsd folk (freebsd/netbsd/openbsd etc.) BSD meeting at the Colonade, Somerset St, pizza+beer, 6pm Thursday December 11th. 280 Metcalfe at Gilmour http://www.ottawaplus.ca/map?mode=geo&id=49236&lat=454158&lon=-756913 Cya there.. - Diane From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 10:04:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D011016A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C45443FB1 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:04:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hAQI4KC9041942; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:04:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031126132859.GN12248@over-yonder.net> References: <20031104192215.GA848@online.fr> <3FA8382F.50204@potentialtech.com> <3FC0AEDF.1010509@potentialtech.com> <3FC4086B.99216BD4@mindspring.com> <20031126132859.GN12248@over-yonder.net> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:32:13 +0100 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How do hackers drive? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:04:47 -0000 At 7:28 AM -0600 2003/11/26, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Take out the self-centricism in your own eye, before complaining about > the minor insensitivity in Monopoly's! Many types of games are played world-wide, some of them more widespread than others. Some do not require any translation (e.g., Chess), although the players may have some problems communicating with each other if they don't share a common language. In the case of both Scrabble and Monopoly, I can show you Dutch and French language versions, and I'm sure they're not the only games that are played world-wide but are localized to the specific languages being spoken/understood/written/read in a particular country or region. As far as language is concerned, I do not see how this issue is relevant to these two particular games. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 10:04:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9DA16A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007CC43FBF for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:04:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hAQI4KCD041942; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:04:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20031027214510.GA52000@kosmos.mynet> <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:50:08 +0100 To: Erik Trulsson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:04:56 -0000 At 7:19 AM +0100 2003/11/26, Erik Trulsson quoted Allan Bowhill: >> Minus time, you should be able to see that the skill sets of system >> administration skills and programming are mutually exclusive. The two >> activities are so distinct, that you cannot do both at the same time. > > And here lies the linguistical problem with your argumentation. One of many problems. Just because the activities of system administration and programming may be mutually exclusive (you cannot perform both kinds of activities at the same time), this has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether or not the skillsets are mutually exclusive. I would argue that there are certain types of tasks which fall within the category of both system administration or programming at the same time, and what makes that a "programming" activity versus a "system administration" activity is the broader context in which that function is being performed. For example, are you cp'ing that file during the process of developing a program, or in the context of administering a system on which the file might be completely unrelated to anything else that it is that you are personally doing? Indeed, it is quite clear that there is a great deal of overlap between the two skillsets -- in order to do either function, you need to know how to think critically. You need to know how to solve problems. Of course, these high-level skills further depend on so many lower-level skills. >> You can be a sysadmin with great programming skills. But when you write >> code to automate systems administration tasks, you are programming. Again, this mistaken identification of the activity as the skill itself. While there are many activities that may be mutually exclusive with other activities, a single person may very well possess multiple skillsets which may or may not be related, in order to be able to perform the activities in question. > Writing code to automate a system administration task is programming. > It is also system administration. I do not see that these are > distinct. It's certainly a fuzzy issue. I can see arguments for considering it to be one or the other, or both. I think that the answer to this question would be largely a personal one, and most reasonable parties would agree to disagree. > As you can see I disagree with your notion that system administration > and programming are two distinct activities, but rather believe that > many tasks fall into both categories at once. Agreed. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 10:18:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B7416A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822D643F75 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:18:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823FD385E6 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAQ6GBj1055738 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAQ6GBPM055737 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:16:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:16:11 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:18:22 -0000 On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: :> On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: :> :On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 01:44:26AM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: :> :> On 0, Roman Neuhauser wrote: :> : :> : :> :> :> :> > The skill sets are mutually exclusive. :> :> :> : :> :> :> : aha. you can't possess skill in both skiing and driving. the skill :> :> :> : sets are mutually exclusive. eh? :> :> :> :> :> :> Yep. Skiiing is not driving, and driving is not skiiing. :> :> :> They require mutually exclusive skill sets. :> Knowing one set of skills does not necessarily preclude knowlege of the :> other. In fact, one often complements the other. But that is ouside the :> scope of the argument. : :But the only possible way I can interpret the statement "The skill sets :are mutually exclusive." is that knowing one skill set precludes :knowing the other. That is what that statement means. You are changing the meaning of my statement and arguing against it, pretending I said it. You are creating a straw man. If you don't know what that is, see: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html :> Minus time, you should be able to see that the skill sets of system :> administration skills and programming are mutually exclusive. The two :> activities are so distinct, that you cannot do both at the same time. : :And here lies the linguistical problem with your argumentation. :First you state that you cannot have both skills at the same time (this :is what is meant by saying that they are mutually exclusive.) Misattribution. If you read the thread, Mr. Neuhauser proposed there was a connection between possession of skills and mutual exclusivity of skill sets. He was being sarcastic. In response, I merely agreed to the part of his statement that said the skill sets were mutually exclusive. I won't argue this point any further. I believe my position is clear. :Writing firewall rules is a form of programming, as is configuring some :pieces of software, and even putting together complex command-lines. :These are also all part of system administration. Again I do not see :any clear distinction between the two. : :As you can see I disagree with your notion that system administration :and programming are two distinct activities, but rather believe that :many tasks fall into both categories at once. Now we get to the real reason for your attack. You have an expanded view of systems administration to include programming. This may be a legitimate point, but I think it's open to debate, as I said earlier. My position, correct or not, is that systems administration and programming are two fundamentally distinct and exclusive areas. To tie this back to the original argument, I think the perception that they are one in the same has led to unrealistic expectations on the Unix front, that developers should also be expert systems administrators. To have robust 3rd-party development, one should not expect all contributing programmers to have advanced system administrative skills, because such an expectation would be self-defeating. -- Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net Wombat's Laws of Computer Selection: (1) If it doesn't run Unix, forget it. (2) Any computer design over 10 years old is obsolete. (3) Anything made by IBM is junk. (See number 2) (4) The minimum acceptable CPU power for a single user is a VAX/780 with a floating point accelerator. (5) Any computer with a mouse is worthless. -- Rich Kulawiec From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 10:49:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A39A16A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (zoot.blarg.net [206.124.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D52643F93 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:49:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668D733FAF for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 10:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAQ6p9j1055876 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAQ6p9c2055875 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:51:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:51:09 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:49:54 -0000 On 0, Bill Moran wrote: :Allan, : :I'm not sure if your understanding of the term is wrong, or your :understaning :of programming/sysadmin is wrong, but: : :The definition you give of "mutually exclusive" is correct. Your contention :that sysadmin and programming skillsets are mutually exclusive is completely :unsupportable. They aren't even orthogonal. There are many times a :sysadmin :resorts to writing quick scripts (programs) in order to do his job, and a :programmer with no knowledge of sysadmin is going to write software that is :impossible to administer. Likewise, a systems administrator who writes quick scripts to fix things is not doing "real" programming. This argument has been made to me on a number of occasions by programmers. There is some legitimacy to this statement. A programmer in a software development environment has a completely different mindset than a sysadmin in an Internet shop. The reasons for writing code are different. The development process and languages are different. The environment is different. There are nuances of each type of job that require companies to distinguish between the two occupations. Coursework to gain professional skills is different. In the practical day-to-day sense, there is a lot of overlap. But to say systems administration == programming is false. :Even your example of skiing/driving is wrong. These two _are_ orthogonal :(meaning they require separate skill sets not dependent on each other) but :they are hardly even close to being mutually exclusive (which would mean :that :you get to pick one to learn, because you can never then learn the other) :I can prove this in the real world because I know people who can both ski :and drive. The analogy was not mine, and neither was that point. I did not say that a person could not possess both skills. My point was the skills themselves technically are exclusive to one another. Not that someone couldn't have both. :Fact is, I don't think it's possible for a skillset to be mutually exclusive :with any other skillset. : :Philosophies could be. A terrorist philosophy is multutally exclusive with :a pacafist philosophy because you can not believe in killing to achieve your :means at the same time you believe that violence is always wrong. : :Does this make sense? Sure. A terrorist philosophy is in opposition to a pacifist philosophy. I agree. But I am not saying systems administration is in opposition to programming. Unlike terrorists and pacifists, they can certainly complement one another. They just, in the pure sense, share little to nothing in common in and of themselves. :-- :Bill Moran :Potential Technologies :http://www.potentialtech.com : :_______________________________________________ :freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list :http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat :To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net You can always tell the Christmas season is here when you start getting incredibly dense, tinfoil-and-ribbon- wrapped lumps in the mail. Fruitcakes make ideal gifts because the Postal Service has been unable to find a way to damage them. They last forever, largely because nobody ever eats them. In fact, many smart people save the fruitcakes they receive and send them back to the original givers the next year; some fruitcakes have been passed back and forth for hundreds of years. The easiest way to make a fruitcake is to buy a darkish cake, then pound some old, hard fruit into it with a mallet. Be sure to wear safety glasses. -- Dave Barry, "Simple, Homespun Gifts" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 14:01:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260B716A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta9.adelphia.net (mta9.adelphia.net [68.168.78.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BD543FE3 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:01:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wmoran@potentialtech.com) Received: from potentialtech.com ([68.68.113.33]) by mta9.adelphia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20031126220136.KIBV1561.mta9.adelphia.net@potentialtech.com> for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:01:36 -0500 Message-ID: <3FC522BB.6040703@potentialtech.com> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:01:31 -0500 From: Bill Moran User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> In-Reply-To: <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:01:34 -0000 Allan Bowhill wrote: > On 0, Bill Moran wrote: > :Allan, > : > :I'm not sure if your understanding of the term is wrong, or your > :understaning > :of programming/sysadmin is wrong, but: > : > :The definition you give of "mutually exclusive" is correct. Your contention > :that sysadmin and programming skillsets are mutually exclusive is completely > :unsupportable. They aren't even orthogonal. There are many times a > :sysadmin > :resorts to writing quick scripts (programs) in order to do his job, and a > :programmer with no knowledge of sysadmin is going to write software that is > :impossible to administer. > > Likewise, a systems administrator who writes quick scripts to fix things > is not doing "real" programming. This argument has been made to me on a > number of occasions by programmers. This dodges the point. Whether or not script-writers are "real" programmers or not does not change the fact that you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "exclusive". > :Even your example of skiing/driving is wrong. These two _are_ orthogonal > :(meaning they require separate skill sets not dependent on each other) but > :they are hardly even close to being mutually exclusive (which would mean > :that > :you get to pick one to learn, because you can never then learn the other) > :I can prove this in the real world because I know people who can both ski > :and drive. > > The analogy was not mine, and neither was that point. I did not say that > a person could not possess both skills. True, I shouldn't have said that ... > My point was the skills themselves technically are exclusive to > one another. Not that someone couldn't have both. ... however, if you aren't aware of the fact that you contracted yourself there, then you don't understand what "exclusive" means. If the skills are exclusive, then someone can _not_ have both. If someone can have both, then the skills are not exclusive. > :Fact is, I don't think it's possible for a skillset to be mutually exclusive > :with any other skillset. > : > :Philosophies could be. A terrorist philosophy is multutally exclusive with > :a pacafist philosophy because you can not believe in killing to achieve your > :means at the same time you believe that violence is always wrong. > : > :Does this make sense? > > Sure. A terrorist philosophy is in opposition to a pacifist philosophy. > I agree. But I am not saying systems administration is in opposition to > programming. Opposition is not the same word or concept as exclusion. > Unlike terrorists and pacifists, they can certainly complement one > another. Then they are not exclusive. For goodness sake, please check out m-w.com or any dictionary you have to hand and correct your understanding of this word. > They just, in the pure sense, share little to nothing in common in and > of themselves. Shared concepts are different than exclusion. My house and the neighbor's house share nothing in common, but they are NOT mutually exclusive. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 14:50:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE8216A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.midgard.homeip.net (h201n1fls24o1048.bredband.comhem.se [212.181.162.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AEA4543F3F for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ertr1013@student.uu.se) Received: (qmail 26639 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Nov 2003 22:50:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:50:22 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126225022.GA26587@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, ertr1013@student.uu.se List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:50:26 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 10:16:11PM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: > On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: > :> On 0, Erik Trulsson wrote: > :> :On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 01:44:26AM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: > :> :> On 0, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > :> : > :> : > :> :> :> :> > The skill sets are mutually exclusive. > :> :> :> : > :> :> :> : aha. you can't possess skill in both skiing and driving. the skill > :> :> :> : sets are mutually exclusive. eh? > :> :> :> > :> :> :> Yep. Skiiing is not driving, and driving is not skiiing. > :> :> :> They require mutually exclusive skill sets. > > > :> Knowing one set of skills does not necessarily preclude knowlege of the > :> other. In fact, one often complements the other. But that is ouside the > :> scope of the argument. > : > :But the only possible way I can interpret the statement "The skill sets > :are mutually exclusive." is that knowing one skill set precludes > :knowing the other. That is what that statement means. > > You are changing the meaning of my statement and arguing against it, > pretending I said it. You are creating a straw man. I am not changing the meaning of anything. What I am saying is that the meaning of the phrase "The skill sets are mutually exclusive." is that you cannot possess both skill sets at once. If you think it means something else, I am afraid you are mistaken. > > If you don't know what that is, see: > http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html > > :> Minus time, you should be able to see that the skill sets of system > :> administration skills and programming are mutually exclusive. The two > :> activities are so distinct, that you cannot do both at the same time. > : > :And here lies the linguistical problem with your argumentation. > :First you state that you cannot have both skills at the same time (this > :is what is meant by saying that they are mutually exclusive.) > > Misattribution. If you read the thread, Mr. Neuhauser proposed there was > a connection between possession of skills and mutual exclusivity of > skill sets. He was being sarcastic. He was being sarcastic, yes, but about there being such a connection, but rather about the skill sets being mutually exclusive, pointing out how absurd that would be. > > In response, I merely agreed to the part of his statement that said the > skill sets were mutually exclusive. I might have been somewhat mistaken in exactly who said what, which is not surprising since the beginning of the thread does not seem to be available in the mailing-list archives, and I have therefore not read it. However I am quite certain that you did say the following: "Skiiing is not driving, and driving is not skiiing. They require mutually exclusive skill sets." The first of these two statements is obviously true (skiing and driving are not the same thing.) The other statement is just as obviously false. Since many people do know both how to drive and how to ski, the skills cannot be mutually exclusive. Let me repeat myself again since you seem to be unable to grasp this point: *If two skill sets are mutually exclusive, this means that you cannot possess both skill sets at once.* The activities are mutually exclusive. The skills are not. If you believe otherwise you don't understand what "mutually exclusive" means. > > I won't argue this point any further. I believe my position is clear. Your position is clear. Clearly wrong, that is. > > :Writing firewall rules is a form of programming, as is configuring some > :pieces of software, and even putting together complex command-lines. > :These are also all part of system administration. Again I do not see > :any clear distinction between the two. > : > :As you can see I disagree with your notion that system administration > :and programming are two distinct activities, but rather believe that > :many tasks fall into both categories at once. > > Now we get to the real reason for your attack. You have an expanded > view of systems administration to include programming. I include some programming in systems administration, yes. > > This may be a legitimate point, but I think it's open to debate, as > I said earlier. > > My position, correct or not, is that systems administration and > programming are two fundamentally distinct and exclusive areas. And my position is that there is not a clear cut distinction between the two, but rather a continuum, where some tasks clearly belong to one of them, while some tasks belong to the other, and some tasks fall into both categories. > > To tie this back to the original argument, I think the perception that > they are one in the same has led to unrealistic expectations on the Unix > front, that developers should also be expert systems administrators. I don't think anybody has claimed that system administration and programming is the same thing, since they are clearly not identical. > > To have robust 3rd-party development, one should not expect all > contributing programmers to have advanced system administrative skills, > because such an expectation would be self-defeating. -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 15:08:00 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2485316A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BBF43FE1 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:07:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 58531530A; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:07:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 62E225309 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:07:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 37FFD33C86; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:07:50 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> <20031126225022.GA26587@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:07:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20031126225022.GA26587@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> (Erik Trulsson's message of "Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:50:22 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: ss X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.6 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DYNABLOCK, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:08:00 -0000 All of you who are participating in this thread are getting dangerously close to earning a well-deserved spot in my killfile. Is there any chance you can move this conversation to a more fitting forum, such as freebsd-test or preferably /dev/null? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 15:08:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6D216A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.midgard.homeip.net (h201n1fls24o1048.bredband.comhem.se [212.181.162.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E42B43FDD for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:08:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ertr1013@student.uu.se) Received: (qmail 26684 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Nov 2003 23:08:50 -0000 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:08:50 +0100 From: Erik Trulsson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126230850.GA26645@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> References: <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, ertr1013@student.uu.se List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:08:54 -0000 On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 10:51:09PM -0800, Allan Bowhill wrote: > On 0, Bill Moran wrote: > :Allan, > : > :I'm not sure if your understanding of the term is wrong, or your > :understaning > :of programming/sysadmin is wrong, but: > : > :The definition you give of "mutually exclusive" is correct. Your contention > :that sysadmin and programming skillsets are mutually exclusive is completely > :unsupportable. They aren't even orthogonal. There are many times a > :sysadmin > :resorts to writing quick scripts (programs) in order to do his job, and a > :programmer with no knowledge of sysadmin is going to write software that is > :impossible to administer. > > Likewise, a systems administrator who writes quick scripts to fix things > is not doing "real" programming. This argument has been made to me on a > number of occasions by programmers. What is he doing then? "Unreal" programming? Writing a quick shell script is most certainly programming. It might not be very advanced programming, or require a lot of knowledge, and is certainly a different kind of programming than, for example, writing a compiler, but programming it is. There is no such thing as "real" programming as opposed to some other sort of programming. There are certainly different types of programming, but they are all programming and are all equally real. > > There is some legitimacy to this statement. A programmer in a software > development environment has a completely different mindset than a > sysadmin in an Internet shop. Probably not completely different, but most likely different, yes. So? > > The reasons for writing code are different. The development process and > languages are different. The environment is different. Yes. So? > > There are nuances of each type of job that require companies to > distinguish between the two occupations. Coursework to gain professional > skills is different. Yes. So? > > In the practical day-to-day sense, there is a lot of overlap. But to say > systems administration == programming > is false. But nobody has said that. What has been said (if not with those words) is that the intersections between the skill sets required for programming vs systems administration as well as between the tasks involved in the two types of activity are non-empty. I.e. even though systems administration is not the same thing as programming, it is not completely separate either. > > > :Even your example of skiing/driving is wrong. These two _are_ orthogonal > :(meaning they require separate skill sets not dependent on each other) but > :they are hardly even close to being mutually exclusive (which would mean > :that > :you get to pick one to learn, because you can never then learn the other) > :I can prove this in the real world because I know people who can both ski > :and drive. > > The analogy was not mine, and neither was that point. I did not say that > a person could not possess both skills. Yes, you did. You said that the skills required were mutually exclusive. This is equivalent to saying that a person cannot possess both skills. > > My point was the skills themselves technically are exclusive to > one another. Not that someone couldn't have both. You clearly don't understand what the word "exclusive" means. > > :Fact is, I don't think it's possible for a skillset to be mutually exclusive > :with any other skillset. > : > :Philosophies could be. A terrorist philosophy is multutally exclusive with > :a pacafist philosophy because you can not believe in killing to achieve your > :means at the same time you believe that violence is always wrong. > : > :Does this make sense? > > Sure. A terrorist philosophy is in opposition to a pacifist philosophy. > I agree. But I am not saying systems administration is in opposition to > programming. That is exactly what you are saying, by claiming that the skills are mutually exclusive, even if that is not what you think you are saying. > > Unlike terrorists and pacifists, they can certainly complement one > another. > > They just, in the pure sense, share little to nothing in common in and > of themselves. But even if this was true, it would not make them mutually exclusive. -- Erik Trulsson ertr1013@student.uu.se From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 16:13:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A997216A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6E743F85 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC666383DB for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAQCD5j1057010 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAQCD5Ou057009 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:12:59 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126121259.GA56415@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> <3FC522BB.6040703@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FC522BB.6040703@potentialtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:13:32 -0000 On 0, Bill Moran wrote: :>My point was the skills themselves technically are exclusive to :>one another. Not that someone couldn't have both. :... however, if you aren't aware of the fact that you contracted yourself :there, :then you don't understand what "exclusive" means. If the skills are :exclusive, :then someone can _not_ have both. If someone can have both, then the :skills are :not exclusive. Perhaps I should have used the term "exclusive of" one another. In the purest sense, one does not take into account the other. If there are exceptions, this is not a problem with "exclusion". It is a problem with the definition of system administration or the definition of programming. :>:Does this make sense? :> :>Sure. A terrorist philosophy is in opposition to a pacifist philosophy. :>I agree. But I am not saying systems administration is in opposition to :>programming. : :Opposition is not the same word or concept as exclusion. OK, point taken. I used the wrong word. :>Unlike terrorists and pacifists, they can certainly complement one :>another. : :Then they are not exclusive. For goodness sake, please check out m-w.com :or any dictionary you have to hand and correct your understanding of this :word. Definition 1: (hyperstat online) Two events are mutually exclusive if it is not possible for both of them to occur. For example, if a die is rolled, the event "getting a 1" and the event "getting a 2" are mutually exclusive since it is not possible for the die to be both a one and a two on the same roll. The occurrence of one event "excludes" the possibility of the other event. Definition 2: (Webster's online) Main Entry: mutually exclusive Function: adjective Date: 1874 being related such that each excludes or precludes the other ; also : INCOMPATIBLE If I am engaged in programming during any instant in time, it precludes me from doing system administration for that instant. I cannot do both at the same time. It is not possible. One displaces the other. Therefore, they are mutually exclusive activities, as performing one excludes performing the other at any given instant of time. However, it does not mean they are incompatible in the overall sense. Just that they have exclusion at the time that one or the other is being performed. Programming and system administration are complementary areas of knowledge. One enhances the other. So, they are not incompatible. I disagree with Webster's synonym for "mutual exclusion". I think "incompatibility" does not carry the meaning of "mutual exclusion" Incompatibility implies mutually exclusive events cannot work together harmoniously. For example, if I have two dice, and need to roll a 5, there are four complementary possibilities for this to occur: 2 3 3 2 1 4 4 1 Each dice rolled, represents a mutually exclusive event. Yet these events can coexist harmoniously, yielding a 5. Likewise, if I am writing a document, I can draw from programming knowledge, system administration knowledge etc, while I am writing. However, documentation is exclusive of programming which is exclusive of system administration. When I document, I can enhance my writing by drawing from programming knowledge, but I am not doing programming. Yet, the areas of documentation, programming and system administration are all compatible and complementary. -- Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net November, n.: The eleventh twelfth of a weariness. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 26 16:27:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492FA16A4CE for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.blarg.net (floyd.blarg.net [206.124.128.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259E443FDF for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:27:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abowhill@blarg.net) Received: from kosmos.my.net (12-230-212-176.client.attbi.com [12.230.212.176]) by mail.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8894E38298 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosmos.my.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAQCT8j1057048 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:29:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos@kosmos.my.net) Received: (from kosmos@localhost) by kosmos.my.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAQCT87v057047 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:29:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kosmos) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:29:07 -0800 From: Allan Bowhill To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20031126122907.GB56415@kosmos.my.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> <20031126225022.GA26587@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-URL: http://www.blarg.net/~abowhill/ Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:27:35 -0000 On 0, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: :All of you who are participating in this thread are getting :dangerously close to earning a well-deserved spot in my killfile. Is :there any chance you can move this conversation to a more fitting :forum, such as freebsd-test or preferably /dev/null? Agreed. I would like to end this now. I have made all the points I wanted to make, too many times. I concede the discussion, for the sake of the fact that it is becoming annoying to other readers of this list. Sorry, everyone. -- Allan Bowhill abowhill@blarg.net The past always looks better than it was. It's only pleasant because it isn't here. -- Finley Peter Dunne (Mr. Dooley) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 27 00:14:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFE116A4CE for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCB843FCB for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hAR8DsC7092969; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 03:13:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> References: <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <3FC4B45F.4080409@potentialtech.com> <20031126065109.GD55245@kosmos.my.net> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:26:50 +0100 To: Allan Bowhill From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:14:01 -0000 At 10:51 PM -0800 2003/11/25, Allan Bowhill wrote: > In the practical day-to-day sense, there is a lot of overlap. But to say > systems administration == programming > is false. Just like that the skillsets between systems administration and programming are mutually exclusive. In truth, there is a lot of overlap between these two skillsets. > The analogy was not mine, and neither was that point. I did not say that > a person could not possess both skills. That's what mutually exclusive means. > My point was the skills themselves technically are exclusive to > one another. Not that someone couldn't have both. If the skills are mutually exclusive, then one could not have both of them. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Nov 27 00:14:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1126E16A4CE for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD23743F85 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:14:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id hAR8DsC9092969; Thu, 27 Nov 2003 03:13:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> References: <20031027223648.GC1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031028000708.GA52155@kosmos.mynet> <20031028004319.GF1004@zi025.glhnet.mhn.de> <20031125072702.GG340@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125064404.GA38625@kosmos.my.net> <20031125193010.GB67289@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20031125094426.GA39119@kosmos.my.net> <20031125222426.GA3585@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031125152800.GA40176@kosmos.my.net> <20031126061932.GA9451@falcon.midgard.homeip.net> <20031126061611.GC55245@kosmos.my.net> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:34:57 +0100 To: Allan Bowhill From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in ports howto question X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:14:02 -0000 At 10:16 PM -0800 2003/11/25, Allan Bowhill wrote: > You are changing the meaning of my statement and arguing against it, > pretending I said it. You are creating a straw man. No, he's not. You took a definition that based on events and applied it to a completely different situation (skillsets), and then tried to continue to use the same term. Use the right term, the right way. > Now we get to the real reason for your attack. You have an expanded > view of systems administration to include programming. There are some aspects of systems administration that share a great deal with programming. In those cases, whether you're doing "systems administration" or "programming" depends on on the broader context in which you are performing that action. > My position, correct or not, is that systems administration and > programming are two fundamentally distinct and exclusive areas. Wrong. They have a hell of a lot of overlap. There are some areas which are unique to one particular area or the other, but there is more overlap than not. > To tie this back to the original argument, I think the perception that > they are one in the same has led to unrealistic expectations on the Unix > front, that developers should also be expert systems administrators. Or vice-versa, that you all systems administrators should also be expert programmers. I agree with this conclusion, but I disagree with the way you have gotten there. > To have robust 3rd-party development, one should not expect all > contributing programmers to have advanced system administrative skills, > because such an expectation would be self-defeating. Also agreed. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 29 01:35:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C7816A4CE for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcwin002.win.tue.nl (pcwin002.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28A743F93 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:35:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from pcwin002.win.tue.nl (orb_rules@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pcwin002.win.tue.nl (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hAT9aWqv031911; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:36:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: (from stijn@localhost) by pcwin002.win.tue.nl (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id hAT9aWHq031910; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:36:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stijn) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:36:32 +0100 From: Stijn Hoop To: Uwe Doering Message-ID: <20031129093631.GF22446@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> References: <01b401c3b46d$a4ed5cc0$62c4033e@clarity> <20031127140905.GA95486@walton.maths.tcd.ie> <003301c3b617$3d0581e0$62c4033e@clarity> <3FC85896.1080508@geminix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FC85896.1080508@geminix.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Bright-Idea: Let's abolish HTML mail! cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: crappy PC hardware (was Re: kern/59719 Re: 4.9 Stable Crashes on SuperMicro with SMP) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 09:35:24 -0000 --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [moved to -chat] On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:28:06AM +0100, Uwe Doering wrote: > I can tell you from my own experience that it is really hard to find > reliable PC hardware these days, in light of ever shorter and faster > product release cycles. Amen to that. I really wish someone would make a list of PC hardware that was known to be tested *before* release... --Stijn --=20 The sexual urge of the camel is stranger than anyone thinks. He's lived for years on the desert, and tried to seduce the Sphinx. But the Sphinxs center of pleasure lies buried deep in the Nile, which accounts for the hump on the camel and the Sphinxs inscrutable smile. -- Frantic Fran, http://www.franticfran.com/jokes.htm --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/yGifY3r/tLQmfWcRAo0VAKCIdFEBHZWwsFL+m4dkKOMMAPs17gCfWpJ9 3CKzhiSSR1U4SdrggFw1DfI= =QLUD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qlTNgmc+xy1dBmNv-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 29 22:33:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CD916A4CE for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D88B43FEC for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:33:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1AQL9F-0001Gw-00; Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:33:37 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:33:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: BSD and patents? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:33:46 -0000 I am curious if any *BSD developers or *BSD projects (or other) have any patents on the techniques used (or previously used) in a BSD project. Does anyone know? I am not discussing whether patents are good or not, but you can discuss that too. What made me think about this was were some patents I read about for scheduling threads in a multithreaded processor, virtual-to-physical memory page mapping, inserting memory prefetch operations based on measured latencies in a program optimizer, and others. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/