From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 7 12:57:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AC316A543 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41207.mail.yahoo.com (web41207.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19CF443D2F for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:57:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmturnbull@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.36.223.156] by web41207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Mar 2004 12:57:10 PST Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 12:57:10 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Turnbull To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040307202353.GC94564@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 20:57:14 -0000 Wow !! Why you guys getting all offensive? I'm just asking a question. Matthew Seaman wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:49:14AM -0800, Donald Turnbull wrote: > > Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right? Oooh. That's a can of worms you're opening there. Careful lest it blows up in your face. Plans exist aplenty. Talk is cheap. See, for instance the libh project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- which was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to produce any results for about the last two years. What is missing are concrete pieces of code: applications that work. If you think you can do better than what we have presently, you are very welcome to submit samples of works in progress. On the other hand, your contention that FreeBSD installation is user-unfriendly particularly for the nieve user, is not entirely born out in practice. Most people take a few minutes to get used to the way it works, and then find that they can navigate around the menus and get things done very effectively. You'll also have a great deal of difficulty persuading experienced users that they need a glitzy X based installer which won't work over a serial line connection, and that doesn't permit the same flexibility as the current sysinstall(8). Style palls very quickly unless it is backed up by substance, but substance makes up for any amount of lack of style. Anyway, this is a topic more suitable for freebsd-advocacy@... Reply-to set appropriately. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 7 13:00:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2485316A4CE for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF6243D2D for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1893D31; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:00:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:00:53 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Donald Turnbull In-Reply-To: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040307160005.G96027@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:00:55 -0000 On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, Donald Turnbull wrote: > Wow !! > > Why you guys getting all offensive? I'm just asking a question. I don't see anything offensive. If it's anything, it might be defensive. In summary: Lots of people plan things in this area. Few deliver. -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 7 13:02:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B15A16A4CE for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.evilcoder.org (cust.94.120.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.94.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B9243D2D for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 13:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Donald Turnbull" , Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:02:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <20040307205834.C3D3F1A@mail.elvandar.org> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: for evilcoder.org Message-Id: <20040307210238.5700D2B4DAC@mail.evilcoder.org> Subject: RE: [Freebsd-advocacy] Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:02:40 -0000 It wasn't offensive, Just a description about previous discussed issues, there were plans to do that, that did not get from the ground, so if you can do it, please do so. That's it for short. -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder Elvandar.org/DSINet.org www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the hackerscene mrtg.grunn.org Dutch mirror of MRTG -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: freebsd-advocacy-bounces@lists.elvandar.org [mailto:freebsd-advocacy-bounces@lists.elvandar.org]Namens Donald Turnbull Verzonden: zondag 7 maart 2004 21:57 Aan: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Onderwerp: [Freebsd-advocacy] Re: Installation - More user friendly Wow !! Why you guys getting all offensive? I'm just asking a question. Matthew Seaman wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:49:14AM -0800, Donald Turnbull wrote: > > Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right? Oooh. That's a can of worms you're opening there. Careful lest it blows up in your face. Plans exist aplenty. Talk is cheap. See, for instance the libh project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- which was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to produce any results for about the last two years. What is missing are concrete pieces of code: applications that work. If you think you can do better than what we have presently, you are very welcome to submit samples of works in progress. On the other hand, your contention that FreeBSD installation is user-unfriendly particularly for the nieve user, is not entirely born out in practice. Most people take a few minutes to get used to the way it works, and then find that they can navigate around the menus and get things done very effectively. You'll also have a great deal of difficulty persuading experienced users that they need a glitzy X based installer which won't work over a serial line connection, and that doesn't permit the same flexibility as the current sysinstall(8). Style palls very quickly unless it is backed up by substance, but substance makes up for any amount of lack of style. Anyway, this is a topic more suitable for freebsd-advocacy@... Reply-to set appropriately. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _______________________________________________ Freebsd-advocacy mailing list Freebsd-advocacy@lists.elvandar.org http://lists.elvandar.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 7 16:11:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A8B16A4CE; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD5643D31; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (josef@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i280BEbv019196; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from josef@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i280BEMO019192; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:11:14 -0800 (PST) From: Josef El-Rayes Message-Id: <200403080011.i280BEMO019192@freefall.freebsd.org> To: josef@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-www@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: advocacy/63854: PR-web page loses text X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 00:11:14 -0000 Synopsis: PR-web page loses text Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-advocacy->freebsd-www Responsible-Changed-By: josef Responsible-Changed-When: Sun Mar 7 16:09:41 PST 2004 Responsible-Changed-Why: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=63854 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 7 22:39:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0212716A4CE for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts6.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F24B43D39 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:39:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.22]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:39:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 1:39:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:39:54 -0000 [This isn't offtopic, I just rant a bit first, sorry :p] I may be part of a startling minority within the *nix/BSD community when I believe that they are (even Linux) FAR from being ready for home usage by, say, Joe Sixpack, or whatever cliche home user image you have in mind. There are a few reasons for this that I think we would, the Free Software Community as a whole, have a HARD time resolving. Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns that HIS OS is the reason he can't use some program that he wants. He doesn't think of it the same way we do though. It's not, "Damn them for not supporting multiple platforms!". It is, in fact, "What the ****, this OS sucks.". He doesn't understand WHY his nice new OS can't run the program he wants. He just knows that if he were to make it so his computer could run the program he wants, the only thing he'd have to change was his OS. (This is different with Macs as they are percieved [by most mac zealots] as being evolutionary technology, etc, etc. To any extent, people accept the fact that their computers on a whole are different). So, he sees, say, LINUX, as being the thing that is coming between HIM and being productive. This is all about perception, but it is very important. I cringe when I hear about Linux being put on computers and sold in stores. First of all, I don't think the customers will be happy with it i n the long run (especially after they buy some software and realize that it won't run on their computer). Second of all, I'm not sure many people who buy these computers fully understand what Linux is, and without that understanding they are getting themselves in somewhat of a jam. Workstations at corporations are different, but for home users I seriously think Desktop *nix is a mistake. I've realized this, I don't know how many others have. But when a user is told he should switch, say, OSes because his OS sucks, he tends to react with anger. You aren't just insulting Windows, you are insulting the way he goes about his way of life. If you want to make anyone switch to FreeBSD, I think any such '* sucks!' comments should be avoided. You should always allow the users to make up his own mind. Linux is good for this, FreeBSD is good for this. This is what they both do good, and here is why I use and support it. If FreeBSD is to be more appealing to Desktop users (and I mean Linux/techy Windows users, not Joe Sixpack. Know your market) we should, as opposed to modifying FreeBSD in a way that makes it more appealing to a more laid back user, seperate it into two different ISO downloads. You have the Server/Classic version, and the Desktop version. The differences? The Desktop version would assume more on install, have a graphical installer, and let you choose GUI that you want on start (along with xdm/kdm/gdm). Possibly even its own theme, which would MAKE a lot more of a difference then you would think at first. I realize what a lot of you are going to say to this, and I've already thought about it a lot. We wouldn't have to make our own GUI installer from scratch, what's wrong with RedHat's anaconda? Modify it, make it use pkg_add. Bam, we're in buisness. A lot of work involved in making two images? Not really, the only binaries that I envision being different would be (aside from the installer) the kernel. Which REALLY should have dummynet and ipfw in by default with 'allow all' by default (Only for desktop). Other than that, you wouldn't really be adding that much overhead to the whole process. It would be work yes, but I'm willing to BET that it'll generate FreeBSD a whole new GROUP of users. There are a lot of Linux users who are put off by the FreeBSD installer/etc. By the time the get good enough to handle that sort of thing, they are usually already settled in and they have spent so long working on a solution that 'just works' for them that they aren't interested in switching or trying BSD out. Just my 0.02 cents, anyway. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 7 22:43:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D037C16A52C for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts35-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts35.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.109]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6316E43D53 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 2004 22:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.22]) by tomts35-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308064343.YTWG20454.tomts35-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:43:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 1:43:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308064343.YTWG20454.tomts35-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: FreeBSD Desktop X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 06:43:46 -0000 [Just to clarify] "...when I hear about Linux being put on computers and sold in stores..." I meant jointly. I cringe when I hear about people selling computers with Linux installed on them. Sorry for any confusion. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 00:24:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648E216A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4AE043D31 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:24:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040308082451.QCZJ20509.lakemtao06.cox.net@vixen42>; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 03:24:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:21:59 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: Message-Id: <20040308002159.3bf38152@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 08:24:53 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 1:39:52 -0500 wrote: > Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns that HIS > OS is the reason he can't use some program that he wants. He doesn't > think of it the same way we do though. It's not, "Damn them for not > supporting multiple platforms!". It is, in fact, "What the ****, > this OS sucks.". He doesn't understand WHY his nice new OS can't run > the program he wants. He just knows that if he were to make it so > his computer could run the program he wants, the only thing he'd > have to change was his OS. (This is different with Macs as they are > percieved [by most mac zealots] as being evolutionary technology, > etc, etc. To any extent, people accept the fact that their computers > on a whole are different). So, he sees, say, LINUX, as being the > thing that is coming between HIM and being productive. This is all > about perception, but it is very important. I cringe when I hear > about Linux being put on computers and sold in stores. First of all, > I don't think the customers will be happy with it i > n the long run (especially after they buy some software and realize > that it won't run on their computer). Second of all, I'm not sure > many people who buy these computers fully understand what Linux is, > and without that understanding they are getting themselves in > somewhat of a jam. Ppl like this are also a product of a bad education system... ppl like this will only stop standing in the way of new tech when that is fixed most likely... Granted slowly working with them can be useful... but that is not really a effective solution... the solution with this is going to be found with time and getting the needed info into the education system... > If FreeBSD is to be more appealing to Desktop users (and I mean > Linux/techy Windows users, not Joe Sixpack. Know your market) we > should, as opposed to modifying FreeBSD in a way that makes it more > appealing to a more laid back user, seperate it into two different > ISO downloads. You have the Server/Classic version, and the Desktop > version. Check the arcc, this idea has been proposed a few times all ready =] I think the biggest problem is lack of time or whatever in the area of ppl that would go and make it happen... /me happens to be one of those ppl > The Desktop version would assume more on install, have a graphical > installer, and let you choose GUI that you want on start (along with > xdm/kdm/gdm). Possibly even its own theme, which would MAKE a lot > more of a difference then you would think at first. > > I realize what a lot of you are going to say to this, and I've > already thought about it a lot. > > We wouldn't have to make our own GUI installer from scratch, what's > wrong with RedHat's anaconda? Modify it, make it use pkg_add. Bam, > we're in buisness. Got a link? > A lot of work involved in making two images? Not really, the only > binaries that I envision being different would be (aside from the > installer) the kernel. Which REALLY should have dummynet and ipfw in > by default with 'allow all' by default (Only for desktop). Other > than that, you wouldn't really be adding that much overhead to the > whole process. Requires a few other things... 1: A tool with a nice front end to rc.conf, ipfw, and sysctl... In this area I've slowly been looking at throwing together a little python script using wxwindows for this for sysctl, ipfw, and ports. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 01:36:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0680816A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7060043D45 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 01:36:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 37208 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Mar 2004 09:36:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:36:04 +0100 From: Michal Pasternak To: dashevil@sympatico.ca Message-ID: <20040308093604.GA37089@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: dashevil@sympatico.ca, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:36:15 -0000 dashevil@sympatico.ca [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 01:39:52AM -0500]: > Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns that HIS OS is > the reason he can't use some program that he wants. That's not average Joe Sixpack. That's technically advanced Joe. Average J. Sixpack doesn't know what a *program* is. He just clicks icon and request a specific action to be performed. As long as he is able to do some basic work with documents - and, in some case, to receive some help from his neighbour - he will be happy. J. S. using some desktop Linux + Gnome + Abiword will not care what it really is, as long, as the computer acts like J. S. belives it should act. J. S. will propably notice the difference on other computers (using, for example, MS Windows + MS Office) - but he may still be unable to call this "different program". > So, he sees, say, LINUX, as being the > thing that is coming between HIM and being productive. Well... productivity. Calculate yearly downtime in a middle-sized office, caused by virii, trojans and blue screens. OTOH, calculate number of curses + time needed to fix some application, that you desperatley need, right now, but it prefers to do coredumping. I prefer the 2nd way, because computers always been my hobby... but I don't really suggest it for other people. > Second of all, I'm not sure many people who > buy these computers fully understand what Linux is, and without that > understanding they are getting themselves in somewhat of a jam. Exactly. If Joe Sickpack buys a freenix-supported printer (just set it up with cups/apsfilter and go), he will first notice, that the supplied CD with drivers won't work. > If FreeBSD is to be more appealing to Desktop users (and I mean > Linux/techy Windows users, not Joe Sixpack. Know your market) [...] > The Desktop version would assume more on install, have a graphical > installer, and let you choose GUI that you want on start (along with > xdm/kdm/gdm). Hmm. /stand/sysinstall allows desktop environment selection, AFAIR. Also, I feel a bit like being a "techy" user and I'd really object any installer setting up things for me automatically. I just prefer to do things on my own. I think many of us do. If I'd like to have an OS, that does everything for me, I'd choose Debian. Anyway, the "split" idea you proposed is quite okay, but I'd do it other way: first, let's leave current FreeBSD "iso" or "distribution" untouched (if it is not broke, don't fix it). Second: desktop-enhanced FreeBSD installation disk sounds really nice. What exactly does forbid you or some other users from making such FreeBSD variant? > There are a lot of Linux users who are put off by > the FreeBSD installer/etc. Don't forget, that similar type of people can be put off by telling them to read manuals. Take care, -- mp From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 03:38:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC7916A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 03:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep13-int.chello.nl (amsfep13-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E0E43D2F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 03:38:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Received: from nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl ([212.142.29.165]) by amsfep13-int.chello.nlESMTP <20040308113848.GVSG8266.amsfep13-int.chello.nl@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl>; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:38:48 +0100 Received: from hume.intra.bowtie.nl (hume.intra.bowtie.nl [192.168.4.13]) i28Bcf5r020533; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:38:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:38:41 +0100 From: Joao Schim To: dashevil@sympatico.ca Message-Id: <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> In-Reply-To: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Organization: NetManiacs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 11:38:51 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 1:39:52 -0500 wrote: > [This isn't offtopic, I just rant a bit first, sorry :p] > Like Joe Sixpack is ever gonna install an OS by himself. Why concentrate on the installer bit when talking about GUI enhancement ? Yes, when using windows (or redhat for that matter) you get to reinstall your OS quite often, with FreeBSD on the other hand it is a rare occasion. So why spill so much energy on something so little used ? I'd say you need to concentrate on a desktop environment when you want more userbase. Kick out crashy KDE and must-be-1337 gnome and create a decent environment created around the user instead of around technology. I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of usability. I'm not saying windows is all that, definitely not, but kde/gnome are just a nightmare for not-so-technical users. Besides that i can't really imagine why anybody would still believe that the 'windows method' of seeing files as icons and such are the way to go. After all those years there must have been a better method developed. Lets just take that and put it in a new BSD licensed desktop environment. Or atleast build a solid API for UI calls system wide. Yeah yeah, i'll go back to sleep now, continue dreaming. :) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 04:05:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A9916A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:05:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A99D43D1F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:05:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 38768 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Mar 2004 12:05:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:05:26 +0100 From: Michal Pasternak To: Joao Schim Message-ID: <20040308120526.GA38679@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Joao Schim , dashevil@sympatico.ca, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:05:29 -0000 Joao Schim [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:38:41PM +0100]: > I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of usability. I really doubt you ever tried to create a user-friendly, open, documented software (no matter, GUI or command-line). Try to do that, then come back criticizing other people's work - I wonder if you will be presenting same attitude by that time. > I'm not saying windows is all that, definitely not, but kde/gnome are just > a nightmare for not-so-technical users. There is KDE Quality team, maybe you should submit the usability problems you've found to them. Your opinion can change the situation. Ranting is not an answer. > Besides that i can't really imagine why anybody would still believe that > the 'windows method' of seeing files as icons and such are the way to go. It's actually 'Xerox method', and it is a bit older, than MS DOS, for example. > Lets just take that and put it in a new BSD licensed desktop environment. > Or atleast build a solid API for UI calls system wide. ... or at least stop trolling, while doing nothing useful. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 04:18:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D846A16A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF0F43D1D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1B0Jhx-000EYI-JC; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:18:09 +0200 Received: from apollo.laserfence.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (apollo.laserfence.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55744-01; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:17:28 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.255.1] (helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1B0JhC-000EXr-N9; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:17:24 +0200 Received: from dragon.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.5] helo=dragon) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 1B0Jh8-000DW2-00; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 14:17:18 +0200 Message-ID: <006f01c40507$b6e1ae50$0500a8c0@home.laserfence.net> From: "Willie Viljoen" To: "Michal Pasternak" , "Joao Schim" References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net><20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> <20040308120526.GA38679@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:20:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at laserfence.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:18:25 -0000 > Joao Schim [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:38:41PM +0100]: > > I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of usability. > I really doubt you've even looked at a recent version of KDE. The unusable, crashy software you complain about best describes KDE 2. KDE 3 has been available for quite a while, really, try the latest version before complaining about problems that were fixed years ago. KDE 3 is usable enough IMHO, I have many end user clients using it without problems, your general Joe Average customer isn't going to go poking around in system settings anyway, they just want to use it, and for that, I find KDE even easier than Windows. /troll mode on If you can't find your way around KDE, I very much doubt you would be able do so in Windows. Possibly a version of KDE with a pop-up rubber ducky with tool tips on even the simplest most self explanatory functions would help. Most people would find that offensive though. > I really doubt you ever tried to create a user-friendly, open, documented > software (no matter, GUI or command-line). Try to do that, then come back > criticizing other people's work - I wonder if you will be presenting same > attitude by that time. > > > I'm not saying windows is all that, definitely not, but kde/gnome are just > > a nightmare for not-so-technical users. > > There is KDE Quality team, maybe you should submit the usability problems > you've found to them. Your opinion can change the situation. Ranting is not > an answer. > > > Besides that i can't really imagine why anybody would still believe that > > the 'windows method' of seeing files as icons and such are the way to go. > > It's actually 'Xerox method', and it is a bit older, than MS DOS, for example. > > > Lets just take that and put it in a new BSD licensed desktop environment. > > Or atleast build a solid API for UI calls system wide. > > ... or at least stop trolling, while doing nothing useful. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 04:48:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F085316A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from amsfep12-int.chello.nl (amsfep12-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913AD43D2F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 04:48:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Received: from nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl ([212.142.29.165]) by amsfep12-int.chello.nlESMTP <20040308124843.XNLU8729.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl>; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:48:43 +0100 Received: from hume.intra.bowtie.nl (hume.intra.bowtie.nl [192.168.4.13]) i28Cmg5r021201; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:48:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:48:42 +0100 From: Joao Schim To: Michal Pasternak Message-Id: <20040308134842.638ffd14.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> In-Reply-To: <20040308120526.GA38679@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> <20040308120526.GA38679@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Organization: NetManiacs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Willie Viljoen Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:48:47 -0000 You are right, That was an unneeded insult to the people doing their best to build a decent desktop environment. My sincere appologies to all affected. I obviously wasn't thinking straight. On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:05:26 +0100 Michal Pasternak wrote: > Joao Schim [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:38:41PM +0100]: > > I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of usability. > > I really doubt you ever tried to create a user-friendly, open, documented > software (no matter, GUI or command-line). Try to do that, then come back > criticizing other people's work - I wonder if you will be presenting same > attitude by that time. > > > I'm not saying windows is all that, definitely not, but kde/gnome are > > just a nightmare for not-so-technical users. > > There is KDE Quality team, maybe you should submit the usability problems > you've found to them. Your opinion can change the situation. Ranting is > not an answer. > > > Besides that i can't really imagine why anybody would still believe > > that the 'windows method' of seeing files as icons and such are the way > > to go. > > It's actually 'Xerox method', and it is a bit older, than MS DOS, for > example. > > > Lets just take that and put it in a new BSD licensed desktop > > environment. Or atleast build a solid API for UI calls system wide. > > ... or at least stop trolling, while doing nothing useful. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 11:22:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE08D16A4CF for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948CA43D2F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:22:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:3262) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B0QKA-0001JC-5u; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 11:22:02 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:13:18 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWFYSP; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:12:04 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:20:01 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B0QKA-0001JC-5u*tRL39dUHy2k* cc: Donald Turnbull Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:22:21 -0000 On Sunday 07 March 2004 12:57 pm, Donald Turnbull wrote: > Plans exist aplenty. Talk is cheap. See, for instance the libh > project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- which > was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to produce any > results for about the last two years. What is missing are concrete > pieces of code: applications that work. If you think you can do > better than what we have presently, you are very welcome to submit > samples of works in progress. I think libh died because of me. I joined the list, and my "let me introduce myself" post was the last message ever on their mailing list. Maybe it's my deodorant :-( Seriously, I think the problem with libh was that it tried to do too much. I was to be a new package manager, sysinstall and GUI toolkit all wrapped up into one library. There was just too much stuff to get working correctly in the foundation before anyone could start working on the actually functionality. And the fact that you had to keep around old incompatible ports like qt2-static didn't help. What needs to be done is to go back to the UNIX way of doing things, and divide up the problem into a set of small tools each doing one thing very well. Then "sysinstall" would merely be a shell script combining the parts into a whole. I'm actually starting on one small piece of this. Contact me off list if you're interested. > On the other hand, your contention that FreeBSD installation is > user-unfriendly particularly for the nieve user, is not entirely born > out in practice. Most people take a few minutes to get used to the > way it works, and then find that they can navigate around the menus > and get things done very effectively. While that is true, there is still the problem that sysinstall is very hard to maintain. It was created over a weekend just to get something out the door, IIRC, and was never meant to be a long term solution. Just peruse its source code and see how long it takes until your brain starts hurting... > You'll also have a great deal of difficulty persuading experienced > users that they need a glitzy X based installer which won't work over > a serial line connection, and that doesn't permit the same > flexibility as the current sysinstall(8). Style palls very quickly > unless it is backed up by substance, but substance makes up for any > amount of lack of style. I think we need both text and graphical interfaces to sysinstall or its replacements. We need the text UI for all of the reasons everyone gives whenever the topic comes up. But a graphical interface is more than just eyecandy if done right. A GUI can display information/controls more efficiently than a text interface, and can provide a better "help" interface as well. As one example, consider partitioning the harddrive. For a fresh drive that's going to use several slices and partitions, one doesn't want to use "raw" fdisk, disklabel and newfs, it's just too difficult and error prone. Sysinstall is a much better solution, but still not ideal. An interface where the partitions are displayed and manipulated as graphs (such as with PartitionMagic) would be very convenient. You certainly don't need it if you go into the install process knowing exactly what your partitions are going to be, but if you don't a GUI can save you some time. As another example, to select packages in sysinstall, one enters a new screen for each category, and must back out to enter another. Two tree lists, one listing the available packages, and the other listing the chosen packages, would be very convenient. With the resolution of a GUI, you can have both of these lists on screen simultaneously. Debian does this with its text based tool, but it's extremely difficult to use. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 11:40:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1468716A4CE; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from amex.cox.smu.edu (mail.cox.smu.edu [129.119.81.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44D043D4C; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:40:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from JimiT@mail.cox.smu.edu) Received: from exch2.elcsb.net (exch2.cox.smu.edu [129.119.81.30]) by amex.cox.smu.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i28Jbpcl021280; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:37:51 -0600 Received: by exch2.cox.smu.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:40:18 -0600 Message-ID: <4B3F673172B98D449EBCC3BE8316F524014B32@exch4.elcsb.net> From: "Thompson, Jimi" To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" , Donald Turnbull Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:40:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:40:20 -0000 Does the folks of FreeBSD has any plans to make installation more user friendly for the newbie or the non-tech minded user for example like Red Hat or Mandrake Linux installation? The point for technology is to make people lives easier right? Before the flames start, let me state that I am a HUGE FreeBSD fan. I use it at home. I use it at work. We are migrating away from RedHat (since it's no longer open source) to FreeBSD. I also own a Mac with OS X. I think that the point here is to coax the "average" Windows user, who has an innate fear of the command line, to use FreeBSD. The problem is that we can discuss this as a technical issue until Satan hands out snow shoes, but it won't change the fact that this is a HUMAN issue. While I agree that an OS without a GUI is by far TECHNICALLY superior, it is NOT the superior in the minds of most end users. It's a terror inducing, awe-striking behemoth. Most non-technical people like GUI's because they neither want to know nor should they need to know the gazillion command line entries and options. That's the kind of thing that makes us "the pros" at what we do. PC's didn't become popular for home use until the advent of the GUI. Apple, despite many technical decisions that I can't agree with, are still with us because of the wonderful user interface. Windows, all bashing aside, is not the most desirable operating system for a variety of TECHNICAL reasons, but it still maintains it market share. Why? Because it offers two things 1) the comfort factor that comes with familiarity and 2) the "wizards" to accomplish fairly complex tasks by making selections in a GUI. This alone should point out that the user interface is NOT a technical issue. I think that the ultimate flaw in much of the logic I see here is in assuming that we, being the programmers, system administrators, hackers, etc., that we all are on list, know what end users want. We soooooo are NOT the average end user. I think I can safely say that we left being end users ourselves behind so long ago that we've forgotten what it's like. Think about what your Mother (or at least mine :)) would want to use. Actually having to go to the command line, when you've been trained by decades of M$ products that this a very bad thing to do, and type stuff in terrifies her. She's always certain that she's going to make a mistake and blow things up. 2 cents, Jimi From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 12:15:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DC216A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D33A43D2D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) i28KF8mH008537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:15:09 GMT (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost)id i28KF81J008536; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:15:08 GMT (envelope-from matthew) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:15:08 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20040308201508.GA8114@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Johnson David , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Donald Turnbull References: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040304, clamav-milter version 0.67j cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Donald Turnbull Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:15:22 -0000 --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 11:20:01AM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > On Sunday 07 March 2004 12:57 pm, Donald Turnbull wrote: >=20 > > Plans exist aplenty. Talk is cheap. See, for instance the libh > > project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- which > > was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to produce any > > results for about the last two years. What is missing are concrete > > pieces of code: applications that work. If you think you can do > > better than what we have presently, you are very welcome to submit > > samples of works in progress. Nope. I wrote that, not David Turnbull. =20 =20 > What needs to be done is to go back to the UNIX way of doing things, and= =20 > divide up the problem into a set of small tools each doing one thing=20 > very well. Then "sysinstall" would merely be a shell script combining=20 > the parts into a whole. I'm actually starting on one small piece of=20 > this. Contact me off list if you're interested. Now this I think will be a very productive way forward. It's much easier to write a program to do one particular thing well, and integrate it into a collection of similar programs, than it is to throw away everything and rewrite the whole lot from scratch. Problem is, sysinstall isn't really set up for piecemeal replacement, and while sysinstall may have been the canonical 'throwaway hack pressed into production' actually throwing it away means there has to be a complete full-featured replacement ready to slot in instead. =20 > I think we need both text and graphical interfaces to sysinstall or its= =20 > replacements. We need the text UI for all of the reasons everyone gives= =20 > whenever the topic comes up. But a graphical interface is more than=20 > just eyecandy if done right. A GUI can display information/controls=20 > more efficiently than a text interface, and can provide a better "help"= =20 > interface as well. It also works well with the idea that you need several different installers for different circumstances: something that you can script and that will run unattended for diskless clients or 'jumpstart' type setups; a minimal graphics installer for use over serial links; a sleek and slimmed down installer to let the gurus be as productive as possible and a nice friendly, hand-holding installer for the new and terrified. So the installer becomes some sort of shell gluing together CLI programs to do the actual work of installing the system with a series of user-interface front ends ranging from no- or low-graphics versions up to fully hand-holding-for-beginners styles. The more I look at this, the more it looks like the best thing to use is the OS environment that's meant to be being installed. For the case of the 'friendly to newbies' install, maybe start with something like a FreesBIE disk -- then you've got immediate access to the standard system commands such as fdisk(8), disklabel(8), newfs(8) etc. and an environment where you can run X-based front-ends straight away. Good luck fitting all that on a pair of floppy disks though... Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFATNRMdtESqEQa7a0RAjfRAKCC2lq9eRNH1vd/x/zy0tcZ7F8HCACbB0Bz XbUgpk9GpAgKw6D+0k7A42g= =+X4S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 12:18:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9AE16A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB2943D2D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:18:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:3218) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B0RCp-0006Gr-5Q; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:18:31 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:09:47 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWFZT3; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:08:33 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:16:30 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> In-Reply-To: <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403081216.30212.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B0RCp-0006Gr-5Q*HofXNRDW4WI* cc: Joao Schim Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:18:49 -0000 On Monday 08 March 2004 03:38 am, Joao Schim wrote: > I'd say you need to concentrate on a desktop environment when you > want more userbase. Kick out crashy KDE and must-be-1337 gnome and > create a decent environment created around the user instead of around > technology. I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of > usability. I'm not saying windows is all that, definitely not, but > kde/gnome are just a nightmare for not-so-technical users. If you take a close look, both Windows and OSX are created around "technology." For example, ActiveX, .NET, Quartz, etc. Take those away and you lose a lot of usability. The biggest usability jump KDE ever had was the introduction of the kioslave and kparts technologies. It would be a mere window manager with panel without them. > Besides that i can't really imagine why anybody would still believe > that the 'windows method' of seeing files as icons and such are the > way to go. After all those years there must have been a better method > developed. I'm sure that there's a better method out there, just as I'm sure there's a better method than the automotive interface of steering wheel, accelerator and brake. But the market has decided. Like it or not, we're stuck with control pedals underneath the steering wheel. Icons and windows are merely the "primitives" of the interface. What you build with these primitives makes all the difference between a good desktop and a bad desktop. For a good example, compare OS/2 Warp with Windows 95. OS issues aside, the desktop for OS/2 was much better than the Windows desktop, even though superficially they looked the same. > Lets just take that and put it in a new BSD licensed desktop > environment. Or atleast build a solid API for UI calls system wide. I would live a BSD licensed desktop. But it's so much work that even if we went at it gangbusters starting today, we wouldn't have anything comparable to KDE or GNOME for at least five years. But since I've done quite a bit of X11, Qt and desktop programming, if you're willing to head up the effort, I'll gladly lend a hand. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 12:44:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BFB16A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C46643D46 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:4629) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B0RbX-0000PA-6C; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 12:44:03 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:35:19 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWF51R; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:34:04 -0800 From: Johnson David To: Matthew Seaman Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:42:01 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040308201508.GA8114@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040308201508.GA8114@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403081242.01939.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B0RbX-0000PA-6C*5OEhniYBDDM* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:44:21 -0000 On Monday 08 March 2004 12:15 pm, Matthew Seaman wrote: > Now this I think will be a very productive way forward. It's much > easier to write a program to do one particular thing well, and > integrate it into a collection of similar programs, than it is to > throw away everything and rewrite the whole lot from scratch. > Problem is, sysinstall isn't really set up for piecemeal replacement, > and while sysinstall may have been the canonical 'throwaway hack > pressed into production' actually throwing it away means there has to > be a complete full-featured replacement ready to slot in instead. While sysinstall itself isn't suitable for piecemeal replacement, the idea behind it is. Consider the Slackware installer. It essentially is a series of shell scripts throwing up dialog screens. (well it does assume that you've already partitioned the harddrive, but that's another story). sysinstall tries to do too much. You can split up its functionality into separate utilities and not lose a thing. Of course you would need to get all of these utilities completed before you could replace it. But these utilities would be useful in and of themselves in the meantime. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:03:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E3216A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E11B43D1D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:03:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.27]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:03:31 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:03:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:03:34 -0000 > > From: Joao Schim > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon AM 06:38:41 EST > To: dashevil@sympatico.ca > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 1:39:52 -0500 > wrote: > > > [This isn't offtopic, I just rant a bit first, sorry :p] > > > > Like Joe Sixpack is ever gonna install an OS by himself. > Why concentrate on the installer bit when talking about GUI enhancement ? > Yes, when using windows (or redhat for that matter) you get to reinstall > your OS quite often, with FreeBSD on the other hand it is a rare occasion. > So why spill so much energy on something so little used ? > I am against Joe Sixpack using FreeBSD. The reason I would argue for a GUI installer is that it makes the whole package appear to be more polished. No I don't need it, no I don't have a problem with sysinstall, nut if we were to make a seperate Desktop/Workstation FreeBSD ISO A GUI installer would definately give the whole package more value. Remember this, the installer is the FIRST thing a new user sees of the OS, it is his/her first impression. Undermining it's importance is a mistake, I believe. > I'd say you need to concentrate on a desktop environment when you want > more userbase. Kick out crashy KDE and must-be-1337 gnome and create a > decent environment created around the user instead of around technology. > I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of usability. > I'm not saying windows is all that, definitely not, but kde/gnome are just > a nightmare for not-so-technical users. > I am of the belief that this is because they are too used to Windows. Most of the problems I've found people having are 'Where is this?' and 'How can I do this?'. Why are they complaining? Because it's not layed out the same way Windows is. I think KDE and GNOME are steps up from the Windows GUI in terms of usability, and that if you were to have someone start with Linux/GNOME or Linux/KDE and use that for a few years, were they ever to touch the Windows UI they would curl back in disgust. > Besides that i can't really imagine why anybody would still believe that > the 'windows method' of seeing files as icons and such are the way to go. > After all those years there must have been a better method developed. > I personally can't think of one. Do you have any ideas? > Lets just take that and put it in a new BSD licensed desktop environment. > Or atleast build a solid API for UI calls system wide. > > Yeah yeah, i'll go back to sleep now, continue dreaming. :) > As much as I'd love to see that happen, I doubt we'll find anyone to do it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:18:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B28C16A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3986843D1F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:18:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.27]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308211850.GCYK2387.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:18:50 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:18:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308211850.GCYK2387.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:18:57 -0000 > > From: Michal Pasternak > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon AM 04:36:04 EST > To: dashevil@sympatico.ca > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > dashevil@sympatico.ca [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 01:39:52AM -0500]: > > Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns that HIS OS is > > the reason he can't use some program that he wants. > > That's not average Joe Sixpack. That's technically advanced Joe. > > Average J. Sixpack doesn't know what a *program* is. He just clicks icon and > request a specific action to be performed. As long as he is able to do some > basic work with documents - and, in some case, to receive some help from his > neighbour - he will be happy. > > J. S. using some desktop Linux + Gnome + Abiword will not care what it > really is, as long, as the computer acts like J. S. belives it should act. > J. S. will propably notice the difference on other computers (using, for > example, MS Windows + MS Office) - but he may still be unable to call this > "different program". > > > So, he sees, say, LINUX, as being the > > thing that is coming between HIM and being productive. > > Well... productivity. Calculate yearly downtime in a middle-sized office, > caused by virii, trojans and blue screens. > > OTOH, calculate number of curses + time needed to fix some application, that > you desperatley need, right now, but it prefers to do coredumping. I prefer > the 2nd way, because computers always been my hobby... but I don't really > suggest it for other people. > > > Second of all, I'm not sure many people who > > buy these computers fully understand what Linux is, and without that > > understanding they are getting themselves in somewhat of a jam. > > Exactly. If Joe Sickpack buys a freenix-supported printer (just set it up > with cups/apsfilter and go), he will first notice, that the supplied CD with > drivers won't work. > > > If FreeBSD is to be more appealing to Desktop users (and I mean > > Linux/techy Windows users, not Joe Sixpack. Know your market) > [...] > > The Desktop version would assume more on install, have a graphical > > installer, and let you choose GUI that you want on start (along with > > xdm/kdm/gdm). > > Hmm. > > /stand/sysinstall allows desktop environment selection, AFAIR. > > Also, I feel a bit like being a "techy" user and I'd really object any > installer setting up things for me automatically. I just prefer to do things > on my own. I think many of us do. If I'd like to have an OS, that does > everything for me, I'd choose Debian. > > Anyway, the "split" idea you proposed is quite okay, but I'd do it other > way: first, let's leave current FreeBSD "iso" or "distribution" untouched > (if it is not broke, don't fix it). > > Second: desktop-enhanced FreeBSD installation disk sounds really nice. What > exactly does forbid you or some other users from making such FreeBSD > variant? > Nothing, actually. I've been thinking about doing it for a while. > > There are a lot of Linux users who are put off by > > the FreeBSD installer/etc. > > Don't forget, that similar type of people can be put off by telling them to > read manuals. > Yea, that's true too. I think that a "Read the FreeBSD Handbook over here -> (url). It answers your question in more detail than I could." would be much better. > Take care, > -- > mp > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:25:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3D916A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts28-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts28.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390F743D3F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:25:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.27]) by tomts28-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308212512.RYXQ21449.tomts28-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:25:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:25:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308212512.RYXQ21449.tomts28-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:25:18 -0000 > > From: Vulpes Velox > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon AM 01:21:59 EST > To: > CC: > Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 1:39:52 -0500 > wrote: > > > Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns that HIS > > OS is the reason he can't use some program that he wants. He doesn't > > think of it the same way we do though. It's not, "Damn them for not > > supporting multiple platforms!". It is, in fact, "What the ****, > > this OS sucks.". He doesn't understand WHY his nice new OS can't run > > the program he wants. He just knows that if he were to make it so > > his computer could run the program he wants, the only thing he'd > > have to change was his OS. (This is different with Macs as they are > > percieved [by most mac zealots] as being evolutionary technology, > > etc, etc. To any extent, people accept the fact that their computers > > on a whole are different). So, he sees, say, LINUX, as being the > > thing that is coming between HIM and being productive. This is all > > about perception, but it is very important. I cringe when I hear > > about Linux being put on computers and sold in stores. First of all, > > I don't think the customers will be happy with it i > > n the long run (especially after they buy some software and realize > > that it won't run on their computer). Second of all, I'm not sure > > many people who buy these computers fully understand what Linux is, > > and without that understanding they are getting themselves in > > somewhat of a jam. > > > Ppl like this are also a product of a bad education system... ppl like > this will only stop standing in the way of new tech when that is fixed > most likely... > > Granted slowly working with them can be useful... but that is not > really a effective solution... the solution with this is going to be > found with time and getting the needed info into the education > system... > Well, there are a lot of them. :) > > If FreeBSD is to be more appealing to Desktop users (and I mean > > Linux/techy Windows users, not Joe Sixpack. Know your market) we > > should, as opposed to modifying FreeBSD in a way that makes it more > > appealing to a more laid back user, seperate it into two different > > ISO downloads. You have the Server/Classic version, and the Desktop > > version. > > Check the arcc, this idea has been proposed a few times all ready =] > > I think the biggest problem is lack of time or whatever in the area of > ppl that would go and make it happen... /me happens to be one of those > ppl > > > The Desktop version would assume more on install, have a graphical > > installer, and let you choose GUI that you want on start (along with > > xdm/kdm/gdm). Possibly even its own theme, which would MAKE a lot > > more of a difference then you would think at first. > > > > I realize what a lot of you are going to say to this, and I've > > already thought about it a lot. > > > > We wouldn't have to make our own GUI installer from scratch, what's > > wrong with RedHat's anaconda? Modify it, make it use pkg_add. Bam, > > we're in buisness. > > Got a link? http://platform.progeny.com/anaconda/ I think that it wouldn't be too hard to port/salvage anaconda, especially after the work they put into it. > > > A lot of work involved in making two images? Not really, the only > > binaries that I envision being different would be (aside from the > > installer) the kernel. Which REALLY should have dummynet and ipfw in > > by default with 'allow all' by default (Only for desktop). Other > > than that, you wouldn't really be adding that much overhead to the > > whole process. > > Requires a few other things... > 1: A tool with a nice front end to rc.conf, ipfw, and sysctl... > In this area I've slowly been looking at throwing together a little > python script using wxwindows for this for sysctl, ipfw, and ports. > You should do it. Plus tools for the ports tree/packages would be great. I see a nice list of applications, where you can click 'build from source' or 'download binary package via ftp'. If you've installed something you can uninstall it, or if others depend on it you can view what depends on it/uninstall it and everything it depends on. If you went to install something it'd pop up and tell you what it depends on, and blah blah blah. You could even have it install deps with binary and build the port you want from source. I don't know about you guys, but samba performs HORRIBLY for me unless I build from source (even if no optimizations are specified) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:39:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55AF316A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C00D43D48 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:39:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 43578 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Mar 2004 21:39:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:39:43 +0100 From: Michal Pasternak To: dashevil@sympatico.ca Message-ID: <20040308213943.GA43521@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: dashevil@sympatico.ca, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040308211850.GCYK2387.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040308211850.GCYK2387.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:39:44 -0000 dashevil@sympatico.ca [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 04:18:51PM -0500]: > > Second: desktop-enhanced FreeBSD installation disk sounds really nice. What > > exactly does forbid you or some other users from making such FreeBSD > > variant? > > > > Nothing, actually. I've been thinking about doing it for a while. ... and? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:39:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5746516A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts7.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511B843D48 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:39:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.27]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308213955.WTFM18182.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:39:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:39:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308213955.WTFM18182.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:39:58 -0000 > > From: peter lageotakes > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon AM 02:46:20 EST > To: dashevil@sympatico.ca > Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > Hello, > > I do agree to an extent with the points that you are > addressing. > > 1)Desktop *nix is a mistake. > In general I agree with this statement, however; > giving users a choice instead of forcing them to get > some commercial OS and going through the pains of > getting a refund (or building your own system). > 2) Terms like "sucks" should be avoided. Agreed. > 3) Corporate Desktops / Technical Workstations: This > would be an excellent market segment for a *nix > platform, however; the use of proprietary file formats > still prohibits the adoption or widespread use of > *nix. This has to be approached in a different manner > such as promoting universal file format(s)? Promoting universal file formats would probably be a waste of time. The people who make money of their programs WANT you to be locked into them. They will not support something that allows their userbase to migrate that easy. > > 4) *BSD as a desktop: Here are some projects that > might be of interest: > > http://www.ekkobsd.org/ > http://sourceforge.net/projects/easyos/ > > Interview with Rick Collette of the EkkoBSD project > http://bsdvault.net/article.php?sid=776&mode=thread&order=0 > Interesting desktop/server discussion with mention of > a new installer. > I've looked at ekkobsd, and well. Right now it's just OpenBSD with a new name and a bunch of services enabled by default. I don't see them actually contributing anything to the source base, and with that I don't understand why they are using the name 'EkkoBSD'. Too much seperation. OpenBSD isn't the best choice for a desktop, as it is the slowest of the BSDs. FreeBSD with ULE is DEFINATELY the way to go. When EkkoBSD comes out with its GUI installer I'll definately want to have another look. I still think that their 'enable everything' methodology is wrong. > FreeBSD has an excellent package for a workstation in > the ports collection: instant-workstation-1.0_5 > I have not personnaly used that package, however; > examining the requirements for the package to get > installed, it does contain a great deal of tools and > utilities that would make it an excellent candidate > for a workstation on any corporate desktop. > > Is popularity a means to attract Users, Developers or > Commercial Support? Is this the avenue that you are > pursuing? Just a little curious, just for argument > sake. > Popularity is a means to attract Users, Developers, and Commerical Support (although this one is definately last in my list). FreeBSD is just such a capable and amazing OS, it bothers me everytime I see someone turn down the chance to learn/use it because it was seen as too difficult to setup/use. Again, I'm not asking that we change the existing FreeBSD layout, but merely make an additional CD that was specifically geared towards workstations. Besides, Linux exploited the fact that BSD was in a legal battle back in the day, what reason do we have to not take back what was rightfully ours? :) > Pete From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:50:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21A916A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:50:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD1443D4C for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.27]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308215001.CZDM20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:50:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:50:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308215001.CZDM20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:50:08 -0000 > > From: Michal Pasternak > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon PM 04:39:43 EST > To: dashevil@sympatico.ca > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > dashevil@sympatico.ca [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 04:18:51PM -0500]: > > > Second: desktop-enhanced FreeBSD installation disk sounds really nice. What > > > exactly does forbid you or some other users from making such FreeBSD > > > variant? > > > > > > > Nothing, actually. I've been thinking about doing it for a while. > > ... and? > Well, I've just been thinking. :P It'd be a lot of work and I'm trying to find a nice way to tackle it. A way to get something productive done in a way that shows other people how useful it would actually be. The real question is, where to start? Fun, eh. :P From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 13:50:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AAC16A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts31-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts31.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A674743D1F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:50:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.27]) by tomts31-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040308215022.NWHN23238.tomts31-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:50:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:50:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040308215022.NWHN23238.tomts31-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:50:31 -0000 > > From: Michal Pasternak > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon PM 04:39:43 EST > To: dashevil@sympatico.ca > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > dashevil@sympatico.ca [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 04:18:51PM -0500]: > > > Second: desktop-enhanced FreeBSD installation disk sounds really nice. What > > > exactly does forbid you or some other users from making such FreeBSD > > > variant? > > > > > > > Nothing, actually. I've been thinking about doing it for a while. > > ... and? > Well, I've just been thinking. :P It'd be a lot of work and I'm trying to find a nice way to tackle it. A way to get something productive done in a way that shows other people how useful it would actually be. The real question is, where to start? Fun, eh. :P From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 16:09:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FF916A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B3343D2D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kitbsdlists@HotPOP.com) Received: from vixen42 ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with SMTP id <20040309000927.UYTK12901.lakemtao07.cox.net@vixen42> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:09:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:06:33 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040308160633.41200f9b@vixen42.> In-Reply-To: <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> References: <20040307205710.35302.qmail@web41207.mail.yahoo.com> <200403081120.01163.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:09:30 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:20:01 -0800 Johnson David wrote: > On Sunday 07 March 2004 12:57 pm, Donald Turnbull wrote: > > > Plans exist aplenty. Talk is cheap. See, for instance the libh > > project stuff -- http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html -- > > which was a nice idea in many ways but has entirely failed to > > produce any results for about the last two years. What is missing > > are concrete pieces of code: applications that work. If you think > > you can do better than what we have presently, you are very > > welcome to submit samples of works in progress. > > I think libh died because of me. I joined the list, and my "let me > introduce myself" post was the last message ever on their mailing > list. Maybe it's my deodorant :-( > > Seriously, I think the problem with libh was that it tried to do too > > much. I was to be a new package manager, sysinstall and GUI toolkit > all wrapped up into one library. There was just too much stuff to > get working correctly in the foundation before anyone could start > working on the actually functionality. And the fact that you had to > keep around old incompatible ports like qt2-static didn't help. > > What needs to be done is to go back to the UNIX way of doing things, > and divide up the problem into a set of small tools each doing one > thing very well. Then "sysinstall" would merely be a shell script > combining the parts into a whole. I'm actually starting on one small > piece of this. Contact me off list if you're interested. /me is curious So what is it? :) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 16:58:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB0416A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts44-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts44.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B179043D1F for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:58:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.62]) by tomts44-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040309005825.PFTN1538.tomts44-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:58:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.6.6 (webedge20-101-174-112-20020617)" From: To: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:58:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040309005825.PFTN1538.tomts44-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:58:28 -0000 > > From: Johnson David > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon PM 03:42:01 EST > To: Matthew Seaman > CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly > > On Monday 08 March 2004 12:15 pm, Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > Now this I think will be a very productive way forward. It's much > > easier to write a program to do one particular thing well, and > > integrate it into a collection of similar programs, than it is to > > throw away everything and rewrite the whole lot from scratch. > > Problem is, sysinstall isn't really set up for piecemeal replacement, > > and while sysinstall may have been the canonical 'throwaway hack > > pressed into production' actually throwing it away means there has to > > be a complete full-featured replacement ready to slot in instead. > > While sysinstall itself isn't suitable for piecemeal replacement, the > idea behind it is. Consider the Slackware installer. It essentially is > a series of shell scripts throwing up dialog screens. (well it does > assume that you've already partitioned the harddrive, but that's > another story). > > sysinstall tries to do too much. You can split up its functionality into > separate utilities and not lose a thing. Of course you would need to > get all of these utilities completed before you could replace it. But > these utilities would be useful in and of themselves in the meantime. > > David I agree with you very strongly here. I also think each tool should be built as a library core, UI independant (like gaim). That way we could make GUI tools that manipulate just about every aspect of the system without having to rewrite too much code. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 22:48:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226C316A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from web14612.mail.yahoo.com (web14612.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 001B443D2D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from plageotakes@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040309064848.40313.qmail@web14612.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.164.224.160] by web14612.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:48:48 PST Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:48:48 -0800 (PST) From: peter lageotakes To: dashevil@sympatico.ca, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040308213955.WTFM18182.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 06:48:49 -0000 --- dashevil@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > > From: peter lageotakes > > Date: 2004/03/08 Mon AM 02:46:20 EST > > To: dashevil@sympatico.ca > > Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > > > Hello, > > > > I do agree to an extent with the points that you > are > > addressing. > > > > 1)Desktop *nix is a mistake. > > In general I agree with this statement, however; > > giving users a choice instead of forcing them to > get > > some commercial OS and going through the pains of > > getting a refund (or building your own system). > > 2) Terms like "sucks" should be avoided. Agreed. > > 3) Corporate Desktops / Technical Workstations: > This > > would be an excellent market segment for a *nix > > platform, however; the use of proprietary file > formats > > still prohibits the adoption or widespread use of > > *nix. This has to be approached in a different > manner > > such as promoting universal file format(s)? > > Promoting universal file formats would probably be a > waste of time. The people who make money of their > programs WANT you to be locked into them. They will > not support something that allows their userbase to > migrate that easy. > > > > > 4) *BSD as a desktop: Here are some projects that > > might be of interest: > > > > http://www.ekkobsd.org/ > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/easyos/ > > > > Interview with Rick Collette of the EkkoBSD > project > > > http://bsdvault.net/article.php?sid=776&mode=thread&order=0 > > Interesting desktop/server discussion with mention > of > > a new installer. > > > > I've looked at ekkobsd, and well. Right now it's > just OpenBSD with a new name and a bunch of services > enabled by default. > I don't see them actually contributing anything to > the source base, and with that I don't understand > why they are using the name 'EkkoBSD'. Too much > seperation. > > OpenBSD isn't the best choice for a desktop, as it > is the slowest of the BSDs. FreeBSD with ULE is > DEFINATELY the way to go. > > When EkkoBSD comes out with its GUI installer I'll > definately want to have another look. I still think > that their 'enable everything' methodology is wrong. > > > FreeBSD has an excellent package for a workstation > in > > the ports collection: instant-workstation-1.0_5 > > I have not personnaly used that package, however; > > examining the requirements for the package to get > > installed, it does contain a great deal of tools > and > > utilities that would make it an excellent > candidate > > for a workstation on any corporate desktop. > > > > Is popularity a means to attract Users, Developers > or > > Commercial Support? Is this the avenue that you > are > > pursuing? Just a little curious, just for argument > > sake. > > > > Popularity is a means to attract Users, Developers, > and Commerical Support (although this one is > definately last in my list). FreeBSD is just such a > capable and amazing OS, it bothers me everytime I > see someone turn down the chance to learn/use it > because it was seen as too difficult to setup/use. > > Again, I'm not asking that we change the existing > FreeBSD layout, but merely make an additional CD > that was specifically geared towards workstations. > > Besides, Linux exploited the fact that BSD was in a > legal battle back in the day, what reason do we have > to not take back what was rightfully ours? :) > > > Pete > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I do agree that FreeBSD is an amazing Operating System and would be a great way to go for a desktop system. Various *BSD have their strengths. I referenced EkkoBSD for a potential installer, just tossing out some ideas. Please keep in mind that I do enjoy the current installer, I wouldn't change it. I still have to disagree about file formats which equate to vendor lock-in (IMHO). I will also agree that a little more publicity wouldn't hurt anything either. Being more in the public could do some benefit to the community. Once again these are only my opinions. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 8 23:39:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1406E16A4CE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts9.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8727B43D1D for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:39:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dashevil@sympatico.ca) Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.148]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.netSMTP <20040309073945.MVIU28144.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:39:45 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.11 (webedge20-101-194-20030622) From: To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 2:39:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040309073945.MVIU28144.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:39:47 -0000 > I do agree that FreeBSD is an amazing Operating System > and would be a great way to go for a desktop system. > Various *BSD have their strengths. I referenced > EkkoBSD for a potential installer, just tossing out > some ideas. Please keep in mind that I do enjoy the > current installer, I wouldn't change it. > Yea, I don't know what to expect out of EkkoBSD though as I haven't seen an ISO that uses the graphical installer. Regardless, looking into it is a great idea as there may be a good portion of code that we'll be able to salvage. I really wish that EkkoBSD's first step should have been with that installer, no matter how buggy it actually was. It is, in essence, all that EkkoBSD is (from my understanding). I never implied that we should change the current FreeBSD CD in any way, my idea is for an additional CD that utilizes the same packages with a different installer and a different default setup. A 'Workstation' CD. I know that there are people working on this, but I still think that the ports/pkg_add system isn't being exploited to its maximum benefit. GUI tools for these (that allowed you to download binaries off ftp://ftp.freebsd.org would provide something equal to (if not greater than) the Lin---ws [What a stupid name] click and add/whatever functionality. Only the FreeBSD one is, well, free. > I still have to disagree about file formats which > equate to vendor lock-in (IMHO). I will also agree > that a little more publicity wouldn't hurt anything > either. Being more in the public could do some > benefit to the community. > > Once again these are only my opinions. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what you?re looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 04:46:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70F016A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8B443D3F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 04:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29CkhUA024797; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:46:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i29Ckc7c024792; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:46:42 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:46:38 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Michal Pasternak In-Reply-To: <20040308093604.GA37089@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Message-ID: <20040309144318.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308093604.GA37089@pasternak.w.lub.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 12:46:43 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Michal Pasternak wrote: > dashevil@sympatico.ca [Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 01:39:52AM -0500]: > > Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns that HIS OS is > > the reason he can't use some program that he wants. > > That's not average Joe Sixpack. That's technically advanced Joe. > > Average J. Sixpack doesn't know what a *program* is. He just clicks icon and > request a specific action to be performed. As long as he is able to do some > basic work with documents - and, in some case, to receive some help from his > neighbour - he will be happy. > This is not actually true. > J. S. using some desktop Linux + Gnome + Abiword will not care what it > really is, as long, as the computer acts like J. S. belives it should act. > J. S. will propably notice the difference on other computers (using, for > example, MS Windows + MS Office) - but he may still be unable to call this > "different program". > And this is entirely wrong and quite laughable and shows that you haven't ever bothered to look into the matter seriously. What you are doing is akin to saying @and all blondes are stupid@ in a serious discussion. [snip] > > Take care, > -- > mp > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 05:09:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E457916A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3802843D1D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:09:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29D9UUA025592; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:09:30 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i29D9Tut025587; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:09:30 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:09:29 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Joao Schim In-Reply-To: <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> Message-ID: <20040309144805.E68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:09:34 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Joao Schim wrote: > > I'd say you need to concentrate on a desktop environment when you want > more userbase. Kick out crashy KDE and must-be-1337 gnome and create a > decent environment created around the user instead of around technology. > I really doubt the gnome or kde guys ever heard of usability. Not only have they heard of usability, both camps have both looked at it extensively and in case of gnome there have been several real usability tests. But as you brought up usability - have you ever done any serious usability related work / at least read any related books? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 05:13:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FA816A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8980B43D2F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29DD1UA025738; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:13:01 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i29DD1Bv025735; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:13:01 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:13:01 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: dashevil@sympatico.ca In-Reply-To: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> Message-ID: <20040309151222.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:13:01 -0000 On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 dashevil@sympatico.ca wrote: > > I am against Joe Sixpack using FreeBSD. The reason I would argue for a 8-( so you would freebsd always be a fringe os? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 05:32:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B165F16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:32:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A71843D31 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 05:32:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1B0hKt-0001Jb-HH; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:31:55 +0200 Received: from apollo.laserfence.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (apollo.laserfence.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03513-09; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:29:07 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.255.1] (helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1B0hI7-0001Io-K1; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:29:05 +0200 Received: from phoenix.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.2]) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1B0hI2-000FEW-00; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:28:58 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost.home.laserfence.net) by phoenix.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1B0hIM-0001wn-FK; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:29:18 +0200 From: Willie Viljoen To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:29:14 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040309151222.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040309151222.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403091529.14762.will@unfoldings.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at laserfence.net Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:32:09 -0000 On Tuesday 09 March 2004 15:13, someone, possibly Narvi, wrote: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 dashevil@sympatico.ca wrote: > > I am against Joe Sixpack using FreeBSD. The reason I would argue for a > > 8-( > > so you would freebsd always be a fringe os? It's not a fringe OS anyway. Why does an OS have to be used by Joe Schmo and Harry Desktop in order to be a mainstream OS? Computer don't just come in desktops you know, some of us actually like using them for servers. As far as its use in the server market goes, FreeBSD, IMHO, has Windows and Linux well and truly outgunned. Together with NetBSD and OpenBSD, the *BSD family infact, is in many cases considered and used as a viable alternative to Solaris. That's what KDE and GNOME are for, to add desktops to UNIX operating systems, the operative word being "add". UNIXes were never meant to be desktops. Adding a desktop to a UNIX is a great idea as it opens up UNIX to a new market, but that's still no case for turning UNIX itself into a desktop system. If that happens, FreeBSD would probably lose out all the market share it has built up in the server market, since nobody wants to install a 300MB GUI in a thin server. Please, before you write off an OS, consider all possible uses for it. If you must, atleast rephrase and call it a "fringe desktop." If being useful for one specific thing is all we can classify an OS's worth by, then let's turn it around and look at the server market, then by your argument, Windows becomes a fringe OS :-) Will -- Willie Viljoen Freelance IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas 9321 South Africa +27 (51) 522 15 60 +27 (82) 404 03 27 will@unfoldings.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 06:50:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E842216A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6428D43D1D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 06:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29EoMUA029899; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:50:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i29EoIOh029896; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:50:18 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:50:18 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Willie Viljoen In-Reply-To: <200403091529.14762.will@unfoldings.net> Message-ID: <20040309163120.L68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <200403091529.14762.will@unfoldings.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:50:24 -0000 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Willie Viljoen wrote: > On Tuesday 09 March 2004 15:13, someone, possibly Narvi, wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 dashevil@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > I am against Joe Sixpack using FreeBSD. The reason I would argue for a > > > > 8-( > > > > so you would freebsd always be a fringe os? > > It's not a fringe OS anyway. Why does an OS have to be used by Joe Schmo and > Harry Desktop in order to be a mainstream OS? > > Computer don't just come in desktops you know, some of us actually like using > them for servers. As far as its use in the server market goes, FreeBSD, IMHO, > has Windows and Linux well and truly outgunned. > Not in numbers by any means. > Together with NetBSD and OpenBSD, the *BSD family infact, is in many cases > considered and used as a viable alternative to Solaris. > And like with Solaris, if anything, the marketshare is decreasing. > That's what KDE and GNOME are for, to add desktops to UNIX operating systems, > the operative word being "add". UNIXes were never meant to be desktops. > Adding a desktop to a UNIX is a great idea as it opens up UNIX to a new > market, but that's still no case for turning UNIX itself into a desktop > system. > > If that happens, FreeBSD would probably lose out all the market share it has > built up in the server market, since nobody wants to install a 300MB GUI in a > thin server. Huh? you are completely off your rocker - being able to do a desktop install - and having the OS behave rationaly in a desktop environment does not in any way maen that it needs to always install X. It means no more or less that when on a desktop machine, the OS should behave apprropriately, including automaticly detectinga nd loading sound, finding mouse, having a resonable set of desktop apps installed, using a printing system and so on. > > Please, before you write off an OS, consider all possible uses for it. If you > must, atleast rephrase and call it a "fringe desktop." > > If being useful for one specific thing is all we can classify an OS's worth > by, then let's turn it around and look at the server market, then by your > argument, Windows becomes a fringe OS :-) > Windows is not a fringe server OS - do you know what percenatge of worldwide servers - whetever web or not are running windows? This is not 1995 any more. > Will > > -- > Willie Viljoen > Freelance IT Consultant > > 214 Paul Kruger Avenue > Universitas > 9321 > South Africa > > +27 (51) 522 15 60 > +27 (82) 404 03 27 > > will@unfoldings.net > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 10:13:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A0116A4D0 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B88743D2F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:13:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:3780) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B0liu-0005a6-5N; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:13:00 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:04:14 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWGMYW; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:02:59 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:10:57 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308123841.7be93c08.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> <20040309144805.E68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040309144805.E68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403091010.57846.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B0liu-0005a6-5N*KDSI/kUkWfs* Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:13:21 -0000 On Tuesday 09 March 2004 05:09 am, Narvi wrote: > Not only have they heard of usability, both camps have both looked at > it extensively and in case of gnome there have been several real > usability tests. Actually, KDE has has just as many real usability tests. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 10:26:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43C816A4CF for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3C543D5D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:26:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29IQpUA034844; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:26:51 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i29IQpET034841; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:26:51 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 20:26:51 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Johnson David In-Reply-To: <200403091010.57846.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20040309202624.H68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040309144805.E68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403091010.57846.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:26:50 -0000 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Johnson David wrote: > On Tuesday 09 March 2004 05:09 am, Narvi wrote: > > > Not only have they heard of usability, both camps have both looked at > > it extensively and in case of gnome there have been several real > > usability tests. > > Actually, KDE has has just as many real usability tests. > Good well be - i'm simply more aware of the gnome side of the picture. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 10:28:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1765B16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 525A843D46 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:28:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 87990 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Mar 2004 18:28:08 -0000 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:28:08 +0100 From: Michal Pasternak To: Narvi Message-ID: <20040309182808.GA87855@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Narvi , Michal Pasternak , dashevil@sympatico.ca, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308093604.GA37089@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <20040309144318.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040309144318.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:28:08 -0000 Narvi [Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 02:46:38PM +0200]: > > J. S. using some desktop Linux + Gnome + Abiword will not care what it > > really is, as long, as the computer acts like J. S. belives it should act. > > J. S. will propably notice the difference on other computers (using, for > > example, MS Windows + MS Office) - but he may still be unable to call this > > "different program". > > > > And this is entirely wrong and quite laughable You have an adorable sense of humour. > and shows that you haven't > ever bothered to look into the matter seriously. What you are doing is > akin to saying @and all blondes are stupid@ in a serious discussion. Even (especially?) those with a master degree can act silly when it comes to computer sometimes. I thought we are talking about desktops for ordinary computer users and useability issues for people, who are only interested in getting their job done (and, who are *not* interested in learning more about computers, than they really have). Perhaps you would like to elaborate some more on this topic, except for going personal, hm? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 10:52:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0741516A4CF for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED83643D1D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040309185231.FTLO22427.priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:52:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:57:38 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Michal Pasternak Message-Id: <20040309105738.17b1d955.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040309182808.GA87855@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040308093604.GA37089@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <20040309144318.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040309182808.GA87855@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:52:33 -0000 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:28:08 +0100 Michal Pasternak wrote: > Narvi [Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 02:46:38PM +0200]: > > > J. S. using some desktop Linux + Gnome + Abiword will not care > > > what it really is, as long, as the computer acts like J. S. > > > belives it should act. J. S. will propably notice the difference > > > on other computers (using, for example, MS Windows + MS Office) - > > > but he may still be unable to call this"different program". > > > [...] > Even (especially?) those with a master degree can act silly when it > comes to computer sometimes. I thought we are talking about desktops > for ordinary computer users and useability issues for people, who are > only interested in getting their job done (and, who are *not* > interested in learning more about computers, than they really have). Perhaps it would be better phrased as how Joe Sixpack neither wants nor needs to think in terms of different programs? Brings to mind stories of Jef Raskin's Canon CAT... -Chris From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 10:54:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D678A16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C706C43D1F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2815) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B0mMU-0001Fy-3q; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:53:54 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:45:08 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWGNWJ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:43:54 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:51:52 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040309151222.B68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403091529.14762.will@unfoldings.net> In-Reply-To: <200403091529.14762.will@unfoldings.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403091051.52675.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B0mMU-0001Fy-3q*7/AcEs30axs* cc: Willie Viljoen Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:54:15 -0000 On Tuesday 09 March 2004 05:29 am, Willie Viljoen wrote: > That's what KDE and GNOME are for, to add desktops to UNIX operating > systems, the operative word being "add". UNIXes were never meant to > be desktops. Adding a desktop to a UNIX is a great idea as it opens > up UNIX to a new market, but that's still no case for turning UNIX > itself into a desktop system. UNIX was never meant to be a "desktop", but that's only because there wasn't a concept of "desktop" back then. UNIX was the desktop of its day. When everyone else was making systems to run on expensive mainframes for governments and huge corporations, UNIX was made for a mini-computer affordable by universities and smaller companies. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 11:09:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D231C16A4F1 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from web60408.mail.yahoo.com (web60408.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.191]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CD2443D31 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:09:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040309190901.15157.qmail@web60408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.51.136] by web60408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:09:01 PST Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:09:01 -0800 (PST) From: twig les To: Chris Pressey , Michal Pasternak In-Reply-To: <20040309105738.17b1d955.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:09:02 -0000 I thought we are talking about > desktops > > for ordinary computer users and useability issues for > people, who are > > only interested in getting their job done (and, who are > *not* > > interested in learning more about computers, than they > really have). I'd like a little clarification. Are you guys/gals interested in desktop penetration in the workplace or in the home? Those functions overlap but are quite different. For work I require Visio, Lookout for email and a Nortel VPN client that keep me chained to windows. For my home it is more like video games+graphics drivers and a little bit of Photoshop and other randomness that is just very easy to accomplish on windows. So where is the thrust? PS, personal attacks have no place in an intelligent exchange of ideas. Attack the argument, not the person. ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 11:22:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75CC16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ocswall01.fda.gov (ocswall01.fda.gov [198.77.181.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 45A9E43D39 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DrewsJ@cder.fda.gov) Received: from no.name.available by ocswall01.fda.gov via smtpd (for mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) with SMTP; 9 Mar 2004 19:22:12 UT Received: from 150.148.145.221 by cdsmms01.cder.fda.gov with ESMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v5.5.1)); Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:22:00 -0400 Received: by cdsx02.cder.fda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19 ) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:22:00 -0500 Message-ID: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D728F@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> From: "Drews, Jonathan*" To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:21:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-WSS-ID: 6C50C6D21369144-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Are the Open Source desktops too complicated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:22:12 -0000 Hi: I read portions of the "Desktop FreeBSD" thread and have to agree somewhat with Joao Schim's remarks. I did docs on Kde (Kformula, Kchart, and Kget) and my experience was that the developers were more interested in adding features rather than getting the bugs squashed. I finally gave up on contributing to Kde because locating bugs was becoming extremely difficult. In some cases my bug reports were just closed out. I tend to agree with Victoria Livschitz, a senior IT architect with Sun Microsystems. Perhaps the Kde (and Gnome) desktops are becoming to complicated for volunteers to adequately maintain? Excerpt: Question] Jaron Lanier has argued that we cannot write big programs with a lot of code without creating many bugs, which he concludes is a sign that something is fundamentally wrong Victoria] I agree with Jaron's thesis completely. The correlation of the size of the software with its quality is overwhelming and very suggestive. I think his observations raise numerous questions: Why are big programs so buggy? And not just buggy, but buggy to a point beyond salvation. Is there an inherent complexity factor that makes bugs grow exponentially, in number, severity, and in how difficult they are to diagnose? If so, how do we define complexity and deal with it? From: The Next Move in Programming: A Conversation with Sun's Victoria Livschitz http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Interviews/livschitz_qa.html Kind regards, Jonathan ____ ___ _______ / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 11:42:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BBA16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B06E143D31 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]:2231) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1B0n77-0005Ua-6D; Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:42:05 -0800 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:33:19 -0800 Received: from dhcp-46-107.acuson.com ([157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id GFNWG3YL; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:32:02 -0800 From: Johnson David To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:40:00 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D728F@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> In-Reply-To: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D728F@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403091140.00608.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *1B0n77-0005Ua-6D*MnCdeg1SbpU* cc: "Drews, Jonathan*" Subject: Re: Are the Open Source desktops too complicated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:42:24 -0000 On Tuesday 09 March 2004 11:21 am, Drews, Jonathan* wrote: > I tend to agree with Victoria Livschitz, a senior IT architect with > Sun Microsystems. Perhaps the Kde (and Gnome) desktops are becoming > to complicated for volunteers to adequately maintain? I would seriously discount Sun's musings. It seems like they're rehashing old ground that Fred Brooks has thoroughly explored. If they're having a problem with Sun's version of Gnome, they should look at themselves instead of Gnome. I would definitely not take Victoria's comment of "buggy to a point beyond salvation" out of context. She was not talking about Gnome or KDE. She was talking about software projects in general. And to a Java community in particular. Large programs do have more bugs. No one with any experience in the field disagrees with this. So what KDE and Gnome have done is to split up the desktop into small autonomous components. A bug in Kwrite does not affect Kwin, for example. Also, a less-than-conscientious developer for one component doesn't damage the quality of the remaining components. I agree with you though on documentation. I did some docs for Krayon. But this is nothing new. Developers of all stripes, proprietary or free, hate to do documentation. For them documentation is something you do after the code is finished, while for "process" people documentation is something you do before anything else. But somehow KDE and Gnome seem to produce quality documentation. Maybe not to the high standards of FreeBSD documentation, but then again, very few projects regardless of size are able to do that. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 13:02:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0711B16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ocswall2.fda.gov (ocswall2.fda.gov [198.77.181.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 86C9A43D1D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:02:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DrewsJ@cder.fda.gov) Received: from no.name.available by ocswall2.fda.gov via smtpd (for mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) with SMTP; 9 Mar 2004 21:02:35 UT Received: from 150.148.145.221 by cdsmms01.cder.fda.gov with ESMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v5.5.1)); Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:02:24 -0400 Received: by cdsx02.cder.fda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19 ) id ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:02:24 -0500 Message-ID: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D7292@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> From: "Drews, Jonathan*" To: "'Freebsd-Advocacy (E-mail)" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:02:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-WSS-ID: 6C50EF6A1379114-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD desktop or free version of Windows ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:02:36 -0000 Are these hypothetical "Joe Sixpack" folks looking for a free version of Windows or do they want an open source UNIX? Is it desirable to produce a Microsoft like version of FreeBSD? dashevil writes: > I just rant a bit first, sorry :p] I may be part of a startling minority within the *nix/BSD > community when I believe that they are (even Linux) FAR from being ready for home usage by, say, > Joe Sixpack, or whatever cliche home user image you have in mind. I wonder if it is "safe" to make FreeBSD "fool proof". I think it's a bad idea to attempt to reduce a general purpose computer to toaster oven simplicity (IMHO). Which is what I perceive Microsoft tries to do. My experiences with Mandrake Linux's or SuSE's YaST installer was that they did not add much in the way of disaster recovery. That is if the install choked I was no better off than if I was using sysinstall. I also think the current /stand/sysinstall is just fine. ____ ___ _______ / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 13:32:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0479316A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E8843D41 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:32:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i29LWNUA039038; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:32:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i29LWM20039033; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:32:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:32:22 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Johnson David In-Reply-To: <200403091051.52675.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20040309211320.W68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <200403091529.14762.will@unfoldings.net> <200403091051.52675.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Willie Viljoen Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:32:22 -0000 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Johnson David wrote: > On Tuesday 09 March 2004 05:29 am, Willie Viljoen wrote: > > > That's what KDE and GNOME are for, to add desktops to UNIX operating > > systems, the operative word being "add". UNIXes were never meant to > > be desktops. Adding a desktop to a UNIX is a great idea as it opens > > up UNIX to a new market, but that's still no case for turning UNIX > > itself into a desktop system. > > UNIX was never meant to be a "desktop", but that's only because there > wasn't a concept of "desktop" back then. UNIX was the desktop of its > day. When everyone else was making systems to run on expensive > mainframes for governments and huge corporations, UNIX was made for a > mini-computer affordable by universities and smaller companies. More importantly, unix was designed to be an interactive, timeshare system and not batch. just because interactive back then meant terminals doesn't mean we have to use it that way now. > > David > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 14:35:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DEE316A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp12.tin.it (vsmtp12.tin.it [212.216.176.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966EE43D1D for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:35:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.219.35) by vsmtp12.tin.it (7.0.019) id 4045A1650013C610 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:35:52 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c40626$e50524e0$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." To: "'Freebsd-Advocacy (E-mail)" References: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D7292@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:35:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: Re: FreeBSD desktop or free version of Windows ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:35:54 -0000 > I wonder if it is "safe" to make FreeBSD "fool proof". I think it's a bad > idea to attempt to reduce a general purpose computer to toaster oven > simplicity (IMHO). Which is what I perceive Microsoft tries to do. My > experiences with Mandrake Linux's or SuSE's YaST installer was that they > did not add much in the way of disaster recovery. That is if the install > choked I was no better off than if I was using sysinstall. I also think > the current /stand/sysinstall is just fine. > > > ____ ___ _______ > / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ > / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / > /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ ROCKLinux is designed very similar to FreeBSD, even if as for advanced ATA-RAID and SCSI-RAID controllers it is not ready out-of the-box like FreeBSD. ROCKLinux has no kind of graphical installers and doesn't show puppets during the installation, moreover like FreeBSD it comes with clean installation instructions. I have experienced a clear handbook is the most useful thing. Therefore, as an after-Wodka-thought, I would simply like to write 'California über alles, sysinstall über alles...' [Dead Kennedys]. Please, don't waste your time to reply this idiocy, it is only a stroke of colour. .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 14:41:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEA016A4EC for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D372A43D1F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 84239 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Mar 2004 22:41:08 -0000 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:41:08 +0100 From: Michal Pasternak To: ".VWV." Message-ID: <20040309224108.GA84215@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: ".VWV." , "'Freebsd-Advocacy (E-mail)" References: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D7292@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> <000b01c40626$e50524e0$7a30fea9@workstation> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c40626$e50524e0$7a30fea9@workstation> cc: "'Freebsd-Advocacy \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: Re: FreeBSD desktop or free version of Windows ? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:41:06 -0000 .VWV. [Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 11:35:40PM +0100]: > FreeBSD. ROCKLinux has no kind of graphical installers and doesn't show > puppets during the installation Hmm, don't you like the daemon at the boot prompt, introduced by 5.x series? :) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 22:37:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456D816A4E2 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1395543D54 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:37:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6CB379EEE8; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382879B148; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:36:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:36:53 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: Narvi In-Reply-To: <20040309163120.L68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> Message-ID: <20040309222946.S87362@snafu.adept.org> References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040309163120.L68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Willie Viljoen Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 06:37:00 -0000 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Narvi wrote: > Not in numbers by any means. true. > And like with Solaris, if anything, the marketshare is decreasing. untrue. > Huh? you are completely off your rocker - being able to do a desktop > install - and having the OS behave rationaly in a desktop environment does > not in any way maen that it needs to always install X. great, so we all agree. either write a perfect joe-sixpack-desktop installer (keeping it modular and easily removed as mentioned), pay someone to do it, or quit wasting bandwidth. (please.) > It means no more or > less that when on a desktop machine, the OS should behave apprropriately, > including automaticly detectinga nd loading sound, finding mouse, having a > resonable set of desktop apps installed, using a printing system and so > on. who said i have a sound card in my server? or a mouse? his point was, there are two different directions, often with different goals. i think most sane people would agree. that doesn't mean we can't come up with a great desktop/install/whatever, and it doesn't mean the current system is useless for everyone. quit overgeneralizing... you're reminding me why it's a bad idea to subscribe to advocacy. > Windows is not a fringe server OS - do you know what percenatge of > worldwide servers - whetever web or not are running windows? This is not > 1995 any more. i've got over 700 servers in production. none are windows. i have many friends with similar setups... so his point remains valid. m$ is loosing market share, that's why they've had to start directly targeting linux in enterprise mags and on large billboards in the valley. that costs money, i wonder why billy boy bothers? because he's loosing customers. so don't waste time arguing something that's obvious by looking around... get back to writing that dream installer/desktop. and if you can't write it... that's OK. not everyone's a developer, or has oodles of free time. put together some requirements (ones that won't be laughed at by real developers would be nice), and start a paypal fund... then you'll actually be helping the project, which you seem to care so much about. (great, but just talking a lot doesn't help anyone.) -m -- "Information Warfare? Given the state of the industry, what we need is Information Welfare." --Richard A Steenbergen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 9 23:19:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6507D16A4CE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA93D43D2F for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1B0xzR-0005yj-7r; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:18:53 +0200 Received: from apollo.laserfence.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (apollo.laserfence.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22395-02; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:15:51 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.255.1] (helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1B0xwN-0005xP-4t; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:15:47 +0200 Received: from phoenix.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.2]) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1B0xwF-000Gj2-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:15:35 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost.home.laserfence.net) by phoenix.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1B0xwg-000Cbd-PX; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:16:02 +0200 From: Willie Viljoen To: Mike Hoskins Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:16:02 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.6 References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040309163120.L68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040309222946.S87362@snafu.adept.org> In-Reply-To: <20040309222946.S87362@snafu.adept.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403100916.02526.will@unfoldings.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at laserfence.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:19:16 -0000 On Wednesday 10 March 2004 08:36, someone, possibly Mike Hoskins, wrote: > On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Narvi wrote: > > Windows is not a fringe server OS - do you know what percenatge of > > worldwide servers - whetever web or not are running windows? This is not > > 1995 any more. This isn't 1995 anymore, nor is it still 1999, go check on the survey at http://www.netcraft.com/, you'll notice how many servers are running Apache. Now, I concede that Apache does run on Windows, but I can guarantee that if you e-mail every single sysadmin of every single Apache listed there, they won't say it's Windows. According to that survey anyway, your argument goes down the drain. How can Windows not be a fringe OS in the server market if two thirds of all web servers run UNIX? If you feel that Windows 2003 or what ever, doing MS Exchange and some file sharing, is a server, then you're welcome to continue living under your very comfortable rock, just don't complain about things you've lost touch with then, alright? > > i've got over 700 servers in production. none are windows. i have many > friends with similar setups... so his point remains valid. m$ is loosing > market share, that's why they've had to start directly targeting linux in > enterprise mags and on large billboards in the valley. that costs money, > i wonder why billy boy bothers? because he's loosing customers. so don't > waste time arguing something that's obvious by looking around... get back > to writing that dream installer/desktop. > > and if you can't write it... that's OK. not everyone's a developer, or > has oodles of free time. put together some requirements (ones that won't > be laughed at by real developers would be nice), and start a paypal > fund... then you'll actually be helping the project, which you seem to > care so much about. (great, but just talking a lot doesn't help anyone.) Mike, an excellent point. Just recently somebody on this list brought up the same point (although the author will have to remind me about who they were...) It's sad that people are willing to pay large amounts of money to Microsoft for their inferior technology, just because it has a reasonably nice looking GUI, and at the same time, want the nicest, glitteriest, easiest, "everything-est" GUI on UNIX, but always want it for free. I wish these people would remember that people who develop free software very often don't get paid for their effort, and when they do, it's only for the man-hours, they contribute the valuable IP they generate to the public domain, free of charge. The mentality among these people astonishes me, they're happy to go on using something that they have to pay an obscenely large amount of money for, but they give them something better, for free, and they will complain about it as if its presence alone is enough to start a world war. Getting back to the previous thread, I still say I don't consider FreeBSD a fringe OS, not from my perspective anyway. If being acceptable to Joe Schmo is the only criteria by which the usefullness of an OS can be judged, then, yes, let FreeBSD be a fringe OS. Narvi, if you don't like FreeBSD the way it is, then either stop using it, and stop complaining about something good that you get for free, or, start contributing. Will -- Willie Viljoen Freelance IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue Universitas 9321 South Africa +27 (51) 522 15 60 +27 (82) 404 03 27 will@unfoldings.net From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 10 02:36:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8298816A4CE for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk (reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk [149.170.192.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09A043D2F for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from p.robinson@mmu.ac.uk) Received: from agena.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.168.195]) by reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1B114r-00039B-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:36:41 +0000 Received: from MMU-HSS-AGENA/SpoolDir by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 10 Mar 04 10:36:40 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by MMU-HSS-AGENA (Mercury 1.48); 10 Mar 04 10:36:15 +0100 Received: from PRGMMITER (149.170.101.200) by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 10 Mar 04 10:36:12 +0100 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "'Willie Viljoen'" , "'Mike Hoskins'" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:36:12 -0000 Message-ID: <000201c4068b$8250a300$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <200403100916.02526.will@unfoldings.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:36:51 -0000 Willie Viljoen wrote: > Now, I concede that Apache does run on Windows, but I can > guarantee that if > you e-mail every single sysadmin of every single Apache > listed there, they > won't say it's Windows. That is a foolish statement. I know of plenty of Windows guys who run Apache. Even I do on one of my laptops for various reasons. So if you were to e-mail every single Apache site listed at netcraft, at least some of them will say it's Windows. > According to that survey anyway, your argument goes down the > drain. How can > Windows not be a fringe OS in the server market if two thirds > of all web > servers run UNIX? I know you are probably aware of this, but in a language you might be able to understand: $ServerMarket[] != $ServerMarket["Web"] Unix is of course the dominant server in the internet market, but it actually depends on how you count it. The 2/3rds figure comes from number of websites, which is not the same as number of servers. In addition, there are still market sectors that Windows dominates in, and for good reason. They are markets that for years people have been trying to work out how to bring unix up to scratch. To state otherwise is just living in denial. I am not disputing the fact that Unix is top dog in the web server or e-mail market, but the blind argument that Windows is nowhere is the kind of advocacy that FreeBSD REALLY does not need. It just makes IS Managers think we have our heads shoved up our backsides and we're no better than a bunch of 16 year olds screaming at each other about Linux on Slashdot. In fact, having read the last 10-20 posts on this thread, I'm pretty confident some of you are 16-year old Slashdotters looking for somewhere else to scream. > If you feel that Windows 2003 or what ever, doing MS Exchange > and some file > sharing, is a server, then you're welcome to continue living > under your very > comfortable rock, just don't complain about things you've > lost touch with > then, alright? That is a server. It serves mail, it serves files, it's therefore a fileserver and workgroup mail server. If you don't think workgroup servers are servers, then please, go and find another project to troll on. A large amount of work is being done in both the Linux and BSD communities to help us deploy our preferred OSes into an environment in which currently, Microsoft dominates and excels in. Much of that work unfortunately involves emulating windows workgroup servers (a la Samba, even WINE in some cases), but never the less, it's what we're doing. If you think this work is "useless" or "pointless", then please keep your opinions to yourself before I start googling and checking CVS repos for every single solitary line of code you've written and point out the futility of it all. :-) There is a phrase about England you know, that states "it is a nation of shopkeepers". What this elucidates is that 95% of businesses employ less than 5 people. The low-end workgroup server market, in the UK at least, is MASSIVE. If Unix does not dominate in this space within 10 years, Unix is most likely to die out eventually. > It's sad that people are willing to pay large amounts of > money to Microsoft > for their inferior technology, just because it has a > reasonably nice looking > GUI, and at the same time, want the nicest, glitteriest, easiest, > "everything-est" GUI on UNIX, but always want it for free. Oh please. Really, you're not doing the project any favours by spouting this fascist party line. Some facts to bring you back to reality: - As of WinNT, large chunks of Microsoft's network stack is the FreeBSD network stack - All of the IPv6 you find in every version of windows is based on FreeBSD - .NET was originally written to work on FreeBSD - As of Windows 2000, with Active Directory they have a set of security, deployment and user management tools that quite frankly, makes anything we have right now look a bit... well... simplistic AND over-complicated at the same time! How did we manage that? - As of Windows 2003 Server, they have something that can actually compete with Unix in both the high-end and the low-end server spaces. I don't LIKE these facts, and I wish I had the time to work on BSD to bring it up to compete in this particular market, but making statements about "inferior technology" PUSHES PEOPLE AWAY from the project. IS Management is not about the best technology, or the cheapest. It's the one that produces the biggest and quickest ROI. For 99% of companies out there, MS represents the best ROI right now. It does so, because you don't need to be a computer expert to setup a server, just have some common sense. The same can be said about Unix, but you have to go and read a bit more. And you know what, if it means somebody has to read ONE PAGE more of documentation, for 99% of the workgroup market, that's one page too much. > I wish these people would remember that people who develop > free software very > often don't get paid for their effort, and when they do, it's > only for the > man-hours, they contribute the valuable IP they generate to > the public > domain, free of charge. Would you like me to build you a cross to hang yourself on, you tortured soul? Everybody knows that open source software is developed mostly by volunteers. However, when you push out something that doesn't work for them, they have the right not to use it. They do not expect to be told they should use it anyway and take the pain of migration, and your technology is better, and they'd better be grateful because, hey, I did this in my spare time, RIGHT? That argument really needs to die. You either work on something because you're being paid for it, or you love it. But when somebody points out it doesn't work well in a particular scenario, it might be best if you don't start acting with indignation. > The mentality among these people astonishes me, they're happy I was just thinking that myself, but I was thinking about a different set of people. You might be a member... > they give them something better, for free, and they will > complain about it as > if its presence alone is enough to start a world war. You're the one on -advocacy. You're the one telling them that you are providing is better and complaining when they say "sorry guys, but samba just played with our heads till 4am, so we deployed 2003 server instead". -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 10 03:30:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B67316A4CE for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majorforbes.isu.mmu.ac.uk (majorforbes.isu.mmu.ac.uk [149.170.192.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA1143D48 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:30:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from p.robinson@mmu.ac.uk) Received: from agena.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.168.195]) by majorforbes.isu.mmu.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1B11vC-0003GV-00; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:30:46 +0000 Received: from MMU-HSS-AGENA/SpoolDir by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 10 Mar 04 11:30:46 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by MMU-HSS-AGENA (Mercury 1.48); 10 Mar 04 11:30:29 +0100 Received: from PRGMMITER (149.170.101.200) by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 10 Mar 04 11:30:28 +0100 From: "Paul Robinson" To: , Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:30:29 -0000 Message-ID: <000f01c40693$172a8c00$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20040308063951.VMBB16454.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Subject: RE: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:30:48 -0000 Bringing it back to where all this began if I may. This HAS been discussed before. Lots of times. Lots and lots of times. So, I figured, it might be worth just re-capping some of the consensus reached on previous discussions. "Dashevil" wrote: > I may be part of a startling minority within the *nix/BSD > community when I believe that they are (even Linux) FAR from > being ready for home usage by, say, Joe Sixpack, or whatever > cliche home user image you have in mind. There are a few > reasons for this that I think we would, the Free Software > Community as a whole, have a HARD time resolving. There are no issues resolving this. There is however a split attitude over how this should be done, or even if it should be done at all. Some people do not want Unix in the desktop market at all. Some people don't mind it, but don't want it to change. Others want it work just like Windows because they want to compete with Microsoft. The first camp are content with making sure Unix is the best server OS in the world. The second camp are the ones who bring us where we are today, and why we have KDE, reasonable USB support, etc. The last camp are confused, overwhelmed and are kind of hoping the WINE guys hurry up. > Joe Sixpack becomes fusterated, even angry, when he learns > that HIS OS is the reason he can't use some program that he > wants. He doesn't think of it the same way we do though. It's Generalisations are always stupid. Did you see what I did there? Funny, no? The point is, there is no ideal user. There are trends, and those people with money to spend on market research understand them very well. If you want to help Unix in the desktop market, produce an unbiased piece of market research. > realize that it won't run on their computer). Second of all, > I'm not sure many people who buy these computers fully > understand what Linux is, and without that understanding they > are getting themselves in somewhat of a jam. If you're spending $500 on something, it pays to do some research and find out what it is you're buying. This is another area where you can do something directly. Go out and build a website helping complete newbies considering Unix work out what it does and doesn't do. BUT, you must be objective. If you don't, they'll see through you and it becomes pointless. > Workstations at corporations are different As others have pointed out many times before, workstations are not the same as desktops. This is important to understand when comparing things. > I've realized this, I don't know how many others have. But > when a user is told he should switch, say, OSes because his > OS sucks, he tends to react with anger. You aren't just "Grown-ups" have understood this for years. It is why FreeBSD Advocacy is more about communicating what we do rather than slating the other guys. The Linux/Slashdot crowd refer to themselves as being "better" and windows being "inferior technology". This just doesn't work in the real world. If BMW put out an advert just saying "Mercedes $UX00RRZZ!!", BMW is likely to win fewer sales compared to the alternative strategy of pointing out the engineering excellence of BMWs. > The Desktop version would assume more on install, have a > graphical installer, and let you choose GUI that you want on > start (along with xdm/kdm/gdm). Possibly even its own theme, > which would MAKE a lot more of a difference then you would > think at first. [BANGS HEAD ON WALL] You know, I used to think the installer was the answer to everything. I then realised it wasn't, and it was much, much, much more complicated than that. I have over 400 pages of notes stashed away somewhere that I've been threatening to organise into some website for the last two years. You may have provoked me into actually doing something about it. > We wouldn't have to make our own GUI installer from scratch, > what's wrong with RedHat's anaconda? Modify it, make it use > pkg_add. Bam, we're in buisness. Because it does 20% of what an installer is supposed to do. And it's GPL, not BSD. And the graphical bit is a red herring - that isn't the good bit about an installer. I really do need to write up these notes at some point. > A lot of work involved in making two images? Not really, the > only binaries that I envision being different would be (aside > from the installer) the kernel. Which REALLY should have > dummynet and ipfw in by default with 'allow all' by default > (Only for desktop). Other than that, you wouldn't really be > adding that much overhead to the whole process. You see, you've already poisoned it with your own opinions. What if I don't want dummynet and ipfw in there? What if I want the snoop device and the ess solo1 sound driver in? What works for you does not work for everybody... > It would be work yes, but I'm willing to BET that it'll > generate FreeBSD a whole new GROUP of users. There are a lot > of Linux users who are put off by the FreeBSD installer/etc. If they're put off by the existing installer, they will get put off by the fact that we expect them to edit some config files by hand, that we expect them to read documentation, etc. These are people who do not care about the OS, as you've pointed out. The learning curve and benefit to them of changing is too low. Their machine came with Windows on it, it works, what is the benefit of switching? > By the time the get good enough to handle that sort of thing, > they are usually already settled in and they have spent so > long working on a solution that 'just works' for them that > they aren't interested in switching or trying BSD out. In which case, they should be allowed to get on with it in piece. Like I say, just going around talking about how everybody should switch is likely to make them less inclined to switch. I see where you're going, but really, this bikeshed has changed colour at least 20 times in the last year. If you're interested in innovative installer design, take a look at DragonFly's approach due in the next year or two. -- Paul From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 10 07:43:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6947316A4CE for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ocswall2.fda.gov (ocswall2.fda.gov [198.77.181.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0A8243D45 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DrewsJ@cder.fda.gov) Received: from no.name.available by ocswall2.fda.gov via smtpd (for mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) with SMTP; 10 Mar 2004 15:43:17 UT Received: from 150.148.145.221 by cdsmms01.cder.fda.gov with ESMTP ( Tumbleweed MMS SMTP Relay (MMS v5.5.1)); Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:43:03 -0400 Received: by cdsx02.cder.fda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19 ) id ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:43:03 -0500 Message-ID: <4C88DC099E9AF945A6DA4D6FFA1865D17D7294@cdsx06.cder.fda.gov> From: "Drews, Jonathan*" To: "'Freebsd-Advocacy (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:42:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-WSS-ID: 6C51E80D1431765-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeSBIE 1.0 works well X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:43:18 -0000 I tried FreeSBIE out at home and here at work. This is a very good way to allow someone to experience FreeBSD without having to do an install. I was impressed with how it auto detected the video card and monitor settings. http://www.freesbie.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 10 11:38:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C676F16A4D9 for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2759643D1F for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:38:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2AJcYUA068887; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:38:34 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i2AJcWjo068884; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:38:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:38:32 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Willie Viljoen In-Reply-To: <200403100916.02526.will@unfoldings.net> Message-ID: <20040310212804.E68396@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040308210331.CDPV20549.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp.bellnexxia.net> <20040309222946.S87362@snafu.adept.org> <200403100916.02526.will@unfoldings.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:38:46 -0000 On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Willie Viljoen wrote: [snip] > > If you feel that Windows 2003 or what ever, doing MS Exchange and some file > sharing, is a server, then you're welcome to continue living under your very > comfortable rock, just don't complain about things you've lost touch with > then, alright? > You are either trolling or out of your mind. In no way does being a server' imply running a web server (whetever publicly accesisble or no). [snip] > > Narvi, if you don't like FreeBSD the way it is, then either stop using it, and > stop complaining about something good that you get for free, or, start > contributing. > I joined the list becuase people I would generaly trust claimed that this was not just a silly list full of people who are only interested in shouting 'linux sucks!', 'windows sucks!' but has actual relevance to making freebsd be more widely used. Seems they were mistaken. > Will > > -- > Willie Viljoen > Freelance IT Consultant > > 214 Paul Kruger Avenue > Universitas > 9321 > South Africa > > +27 (51) 522 15 60 > +27 (82) 404 03 27 > > will@unfoldings.net > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 10 23:34:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4F416A4CE for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345B043D4C for ; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 34A919EEE8; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:34:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BD09B148; Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:34:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:34:07 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <000201c4068b$8250a300$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> Message-ID: <20040310222605.J90761@snafu.adept.org> References: <000201c4068b$8250a300$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: 'Willie Viljoen' Subject: RE: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:34:18 -0000 On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > If you don't think workgroup servers are servers, then please, go and > find another project to troll on. A large amount of work is being done > in both the Linux and BSD communities to help us deploy our preferred > OSes into an environment in which currently, Microsoft dominates and > excels in. i don't think anyone said "workgroup servers are[n't] servers." also, dominate != excel. e.g. i can access mail via IMAP on an exchange server with a reasonable number of mailboxes (<500) and a reasonably sized IS (<100MB/user)... i can do the same thing on UNIX running courier IMAP and it is much faster, measurably so in fact, even with more users (total and simultaneous). from a technical/performance standpoint, the UNIX server is the better bet. it also costs a lot less, given staff that knows how to run through a UNIX install and setup courier. (lots of free docs on that, which make a lot more sense than some of the m$ "whitepapers"!) the point is, yeah, sure... we can get better, and i'm all for doing everything we can to take more market share away from m$. however, you seem to imply microsoft is in certain markets because they "excel" in those areas -- not entirely true. they are in many markets because of advertising and business initiative. that's the way a lot of big businesses work, and it's not just that way with m$ products. it's not exactly that simple, which is why i used the 'entirely' quatifier above, but it is often the case. > There is a phrase about England you know, that states "it is a nation of > shopkeepers". What this elucidates is that 95% of businesses employ less > than 5 people. The low-end workgroup server market, in the UK at least, > is MASSIVE. If Unix does not dominate in this space within 10 years, > Unix is most likely to die out eventually. UNIX isn't dying out, it's changing shape. that's evolution! if joe shopkeeper can get a functional mail/av/firewall/gateway appliance, a fileserver, and a handful of workstattions which offer better performance and higher uptimes for a fraction of the cost of 'beffier' servers + windows licensing fees, that's the bottom line and they'll bite. in fact, a lot of consultant friends are making a living setting these things up and customers (including non-profit offices with <20 employees) are grinning ear to ear. > > It's sad that people are willing to pay large amounts of > > money to Microsoft > > for their inferior technology, just because it has a > > reasonably nice looking > > GUI, and at the same time, want the nicest, glitteriest, easiest, > > "everything-est" GUI on UNIX, but always want it for free. > Oh please. Really, you're not doing the project any favours by spouting > this fascist party line. actually, he's partially correct. the GUI is actually ugly, imo. however, the technology is often inferior. just ask your local IT guys. when i happen to walk across the cube farm and check in on ours, i don't see happy faces. print servers, file servers, etc. aren't just chugging along happily like my UNIX boxes supporting millions of subscribers on <1k servers. instead, they're often croaking under reasonable (office of <250 people) loads. my point: the /technology/ may not be inferior, but the implementation often is. as i stated above... 'it's not exactly that simple' -- one thing m$ does well is delivering a look and feel/feature set business people like. the business people have the money, so m$ survives. this is the case for joe user as well. even if they routinely get bsod's, they'll keep going back for more... because at least the add printer wizard looks the same every time (or actually exists, since they'd hate to edit text files). so there are lots of reasons people use m$... most of which have nothing to do with 'better' technology, and most certinaly do not have to do with good implementations of that technology. i don't mind if you say "sometimes business people just want to use windows" but part of me does mind when you try to say "people use windows because it's better at a lot of things". this is freebsd-advocacy, after all. each platform has strenghts and weaknesses, and the reality is people often choose a given platform (including open source) without knowing the strengths or weaknesses! obviously there are other factors at work, but time levels the playing field. > - As of Windows 2000, with Active Directory they have a set of security, > deployment and user management tools that quite frankly, makes anything > we have right now look a bit... well... simplistic AND over-complicated > at the same time! How did we manage that? actually, no. deploy openldap and you can get what AD offers with less frustration. from a directory perspective only mind you, but it can be tied into our OS with work. sadly, linux is actually better at this right now. (i think i mentioned ~700 servers. a lot of those are linux authenticating off of openldap. sadly, to do the same with *BSD would be more work... and also largely impossible since they're running java apps. on what open source OS does IBM develop/test their JDK? not *BSD.) the problem with m$, and things like AD which was supposed to represent their willingness to support sensible standards, is that they bastardize the technology just enough to make it a nightmare for the implementation folks. (that kills your ROI argument, but i'm getting ahead of myself.) "it's LDAP...but nowhere near the RFC". kind of like sockets, COM, DCOM or whatever else they're calling the trojan horse this week. > - As of Windows 2003 Server, they have something that can actually > compete with Unix in both the high-end and the low-end server spaces. they've been competing since NT 3.5, sadly. at least on the low-end. high-end has taken off a lot since 2000. however, i've seen lots of cases where windows was chosen for all the wrong reasons. not for performance, not for features, not for cost of deployment, not for "TCO", etc. still, all that matters is it was deployed. again, the reasoning is complex and goes to show that having billions of dollars to pour into market research pays off. why did VHS win over beta? the experts still use beta. it was largely due to an influx of affordable VHS players... now guess which servers are more affordable when spec'd for a given workload? (hint: not those running windoze. also not those running solaris.) > IS Management is not about the best technology, or the cheapest. It's > the one that produces the biggest and quickest ROI. For 99% of companies > out there, MS represents the best ROI right now. It does so, because you > don't need to be a computer expert to setup a server, just have some > common sense. The same can be said about Unix, but you have to go and > read a bit more. And you know what, if it means somebody has to read ONE > PAGE more of documentation, for 99% of the workgroup market, that's one > page too much. actually, you're 1/2 on and 1/2 off. m$ servers are not for the faint of heart, at least if they're doing much and need to stay up. it's not eaiser to keep a windows server functioning than it is a UNIX box... and it's not easier to setup either, if you're doing anything useful. if you pull in AD, m$ DNS, Exchange, etc... you'd better have a "computer expert" to set things up and monitor your servers -- or the CEO is going to be upset when he can't get his email. the same can happen on either platform. i've watched countless MCSE's pull their hair out over cryptic error codes that mean little to me as a UNIX guy at heart. > Would you like me to build you a cross to hang yourself on, you tortured > soul? do you work for m$, or are you a UNIX user? i know the answer, but your love of sarcasm keeps me guessing. > That argument really needs to die. You either work on something because > you're being paid for it, or you love it. But when somebody points out > it doesn't work well in a particular scenario, it might be best if you > don't start acting with indignation. i'm just trying to point out that many things costing more money and giving little to no benefit are deployed. people are starting to see the light, however, and it will continue to improve. open source is on the rise, particularly outisde the US. thankfully, many paranoid governments don't trust the capitalist glutton we call m$, and are opting for open source for their technology initatives. even in the US, i've been seeing more and more things that would have been unquestionably m$ go 50/50 (so IT guys can get their feet wet without taking too much risk). none of this points to "UNIX is dying in 10 years" -- so please do more research. > You're the one on -advocacy. You're the one telling them that you are > providing is better and complaining when they say "sorry guys, but samba > just played with our heads till 4am, so we deployed 2003 server > instead". samba can play with your heads, active directory can play with your heads... you either have staff that likes technology and figures out how to make it work, or you hire one of the 300 other people in line for the same job who will gladly make it work. regardless of platform, things break. people make technology work, like most other things in life. unlike your observations, i've been seeing a natural growth toward open source (*BSD included) in traditionally non-UNIX camps (IT). that makes me happy, and i wish you could share in that vision. i don't think m$ will (or should, free choice and all) go away, but i do know UNIX isn't dying (including *BSD). the best thing to do (which i thought we'd been doing for years, and i'm sure we'll continue to do so) is to compete with yourself. we've got people that love what they're doing working on the project. we don't have billions of dollars. time is on our side, and we're getting better day by day. so is the competition, but they're charing a lot more for inferior implementations... because they do it for the money. i believe that's why places i've seen are transistioning away from m$ (and closed source UNIX) in favor of open source projects like Linux and *BSD. with all that said... i think everyone's partially right. the choice of OS/platform/whatever is highly personal (no matter how technical), and will likely never change. that's why measuring 'useability' is so hard for software folks, on all platforms. i also agree it's not a good idea to have blinders on -- that doesn't help anyone. i will, however, adamently disagree if anyone says m$ is always (or often) chosen because their technology is superior. -m -- "Information Warfare? Given the state of the industry, what we need is Information Welfare." --Richard A Steenbergen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 11 04:17:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CFB16A4CE for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk (reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk [149.170.192.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE21443D48 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 04:17:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from p.robinson@mmu.ac.uk) Received: from agena.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.168.195]) by reverendtimms.isu.mmu.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1B1P7p-0006HW-00; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:17:21 +0000 Received: from MMU-HSS-AGENA/SpoolDir by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 11 Mar 04 12:17:21 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by MMU-HSS-AGENA (Mercury 1.48); 11 Mar 04 12:17:19 +0100 Received: from PRGMMITER (149.170.101.200) by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 11 Mar 04 12:17:18 +0100 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "'Willie Viljoen'" Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:17:18 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c40762$cc116ce0$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <20040310222605.J90761@snafu.adept.org> Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 12:17:26 -0000 Willie Viljoen wrote: > i don't think anyone said "workgroup servers are[n't] servers." I think you did actually when you said in your post dated Wednesday the 10th March 2004 at 07:16, and I quote: "If you feel that Windows 2003 or what ever, doing MS Exchange and some file sharing, is a server, then you're welcome to continue living under your very comfortable rock, just don't complain about things you've lost touch with then, alright?" Perhaps you'd like to explain, and then perhaps apologise to the list and the person to whom you were suggesting has "lost touch"? I wrote a lengthy answer to the rest of your e-mail, then I realised you were just trolling and your post was just the e-mail equivalent of verbal diarrhoea. FreeBSD is good at what it does. Like it or not, in the last couple of years, MS have got good at what they do. The respective OSes are not good at doing each other's jobs. Perhaps you should give some thought to going back to Slashdot and hanging around with the Linux zealots talking about how "Micro$0ft $uXx0RRZZZ!!!". Your attitude really isn't comparable to that of the majority of FreeBSD users I know, and I'm not sure if you're going to fit in around here if you fail to realise people are going to use what works, not what their political ideology dictates regardless of the barriers. I could be patronising and put it down to immaturity and lack of experience, but I'd rather just start ignoring you instead. Looking forward to your apology, -- Paul From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 11 13:54:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9478A16A4CE for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from vsmtp2.tin.it (vsmtp2alice.tin.it [212.216.176.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0AF43D1D for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from victorvittorivonwiktow@interfree.it) Received: from workstation (82.48.221.182) by vsmtp2.tin.it (7.0.019) id 4043D1B5001FB804 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:54:18 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c407b3$6e7ddfe0$7a30fea9@workstation> From: ".VWV." Cc: References: <001101c40762$cc116ce0$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:54:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Subject: diarrhoea X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:54:24 -0000 > I wrote a lengthy answer to the rest of your e-mail, then I realised you > were just trolling and your post was just the e-mail equivalent of > verbal diarrhoea. Well, during the past weeks it has been posted a lot of verbal diarrhoea on this mailing list, just stop it getting some carbon tablets. This is not a 'chat'. .VWV. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 11 14:13:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2234A16A4CE for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9C443D2D for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:13:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i2BMDuE8043004 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:13:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <4050E4A0.6050307@centtech.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 16:13:52 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <001101c40762$cc116ce0$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> <001a01c407b3$6e7ddfe0$7a30fea9@workstation> In-Reply-To: <001a01c407b3$6e7ddfe0$7a30fea9@workstation> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: ridiculous X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:13:57 -0000 .VWV. wrote: >>I wrote a lengthy answer to the rest of your e-mail, then I realised you >>were just trolling and your post was just the e-mail equivalent of >>verbal diarrhoea. > > > Well, during the past weeks it has been posted a lot of verbal diarrhoea on > this mailing list, just stop it getting some carbon tablets. This is not a > 'chat'. This thread is way past dead - please stop with this nonsene. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 13 07:29:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD1016A4CE for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:29:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.email.net.pl (36.226.149.195.tld.pl [195.149.226.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 577D543D41 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lucas@office.net.pl) Received: (qmail 4140 invoked by uid 700); 13 Mar 2004 15:29:21 -0000 Received: from c79-26.icpnet.pl (lucas@office.net.pl@62.21.79.26) by 36.226.149.195.tld.pl with SMTP; 13 Mar 2004 15:29:20 -0000 From: Lucas Czejgis To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:27:18 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <4B3F673172B98D449EBCC3BE8316F524014B32@exch4.elcsb.net> In-Reply-To: <4B3F673172B98D449EBCC3BE8316F524014B32@exch4.elcsb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200403131629.21662.lucas@office.net.pl> Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: lucas@office.net.pl List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:29:23 -0000 > Most non-technical people like GUI's because they neither want to know nor > should they need to know the gazillion command line entries and options. > That's the kind of thing that makes us "the pros" at what we do. PC's > didn't become popular for home use until the advent of the GUI. Apple, > despite many technical decisions that I can't agree with, are still with us > because of the wonderful user interface. Windows, all bashing aside, is > not the most desirable operating system for a variety of TECHNICAL reasons, > but it still maintains it market share. Why? Because it offers two things > 1) the comfort factor that comes with familiarity and 2) the "wizards" to > accomplish fairly complex tasks by making selections in a GUI. This alone > should point out that the user interface is NOT a technical issue. > > I think that the ultimate flaw in much of the logic I see here is in > assuming that we, being the programmers, system administrators, hackers, > etc., that we all are on list, know what end users want. We soooooo are > NOT the average end user. I think I can safely say that we left being end > users ourselves behind so long ago that we've forgotten what it's like. > Think about what your Mother (or at least mine :)) would want to use. > Actually having to go to the command line, when you've been trained by > decades of M$ products that this a very bad thing to do, and type stuff in > terrifies her. She's always certain that she's going to make a mistake and > blow things up. > > > 2 cents, > > Jimi I agree with you in 100%. I remember when I first tried to install FreeBSD. It was simply a Horror! After about three times, I decided that this is not the day, when I install FreeBSD. Propably, the reason why I decided to let it go, is that I was used to Mandrake's way of installing a OS. Now, I thing that sysinstall is simply great. I could install FreeBSD with my eyes closed. But then... I thing that the FreeBSD need to decide, if: a) FreeBSD is a OS for everyone = make a GUI installer b) FreeBSD is a OS for those, who know more, that a "ordinary" user knows = stay with sysinstall or something similar The decision must me made, sooner or later (propably sooner)... Lucas Czejgis From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 13 16:29:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1B516A4CF for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-67-117-158-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [67.117.158.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC16343D1F for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:29:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9602E9EEE8; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BCD9B148; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:29:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:29:40 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Hoskins To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <001101c40762$cc116ce0$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> Message-ID: <20040313162452.K6993@snafu.adept.org> References: <001101c40762$cc116ce0$6f01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: 'Willie Viljoen' Subject: RE: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:29:59 -0000 for the sake of correctness... On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > Willie Viljoen wrote: you put someone else's name... > > i don't think anyone said "workgroup servers are[n't] servers." on my words. > > I think you did actually when you said in your post dated Wednesday the > 10th March 2004 at 07:16, and I quote: > > "If you feel that Windows 2003 or what ever, doing MS Exchange and some > file > sharing, is a server, then you're welcome to continue living under your > very > comfortable rock, just don't complain about things you've lost touch > with > then, alright?" and then gave me credit for someone else's words. > Perhaps you'd like to explain, and then perhaps apologise to the list > and the person to whom you were suggesting has "lost touch"? you confused things so much, i'm pretty sure whose lost touch... although i never made that statement in the past. > I wrote a lengthy answer to the rest of your e-mail, then I realised you > were just trolling and your post was just the e-mail equivalent of > verbal diarrhoea. i'm not sure who you're replying to at this point, but for someone who likes to accuse people of trolling and behavior that's unhelpful to the project, you seem to do a lot of the prior and have an attitude that exemplifies the latter. i'll assume you just haven't had your coffee. ;) -m -- "Information Warfare? Given the state of the industry, what we need is Information Welfare." --Richard A Steenbergen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 13 19:45:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F22116A4CE for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gizmo08ps.bigpond.com (gizmo08ps.bigpond.com [144.140.71.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FEAD43D2D for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pyka@bigpond.com) Received: (qmail 13146 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2004 03:37:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO psmam09.bigpond.com) (144.135.25.94) by gizmo08ps.bigpond.com with SMTP; 14 Mar 2004 03:37:35 -0000 Received: from dc-114-63.bpb.bigpond.com ([203.40.114.63]) by psmam09.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_4_2 156/6062641) with SMTP id 6062641; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:45:16 +1000 Message-ID: <4053D564.1050209@bigpond.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:15:40 +0930 From: The Pyker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20040226 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040313200017.C7EAE16A4CF@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <20040313200017.C7EAE16A4CF@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:45:24 -0000 [1]freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org wrote: Send freebsd-advocacy mailing list submissions to [2]freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit [3]http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [4]freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org You can reach the person managing the list at [5]freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of freebsd-advocacy digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Installation - More user friendly (Lucas Czejgis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 16:27:18 +0100 From: Lucas Czejgis [6] Subject: Re: Installation - More user friendly To: [7]freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: [8]<200403131629.21662.lucas@office.net.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Most non-technical people like GUI's because they neither want to know nor should they need to know the gazillion command line entries and options. That's the kind of thing that makes us "the pros" at what we do. PC's didn't become popular for home use until the advent of the GUI. Apple, despite many technical decisions that I can't agree with, are still with us because of the wonderful user interface. Windows, all bashing aside, is not the most desirable operating system for a variety of TECHNICAL reasons, but it still maintains it market share. Why? Because it offers two things 1) the comfort factor that comes with familiarity and 2) the "wizards" to accomplish fairly complex tasks by making selections in a GUI. This alone should point out that the user interface is NOT a technical issue. I think that the ultimate flaw in much of the logic I see here is in assuming that we, being the programmers, system administrators, hackers, etc., that we all are on list, know what end users want. We soooooo are NOT the average end user. I think I can safely say that we left being end users ourselves behind so long ago that we've forgotten what it's like. Think about what your Mother (or at least mine :)) would want to use. Actually having to go to the command line, when you've been trained by decades of M$ products that this a very bad thing to do, and type stuff in terrifies her. She's always certain that she's going to make a mistake and blow things up. 2 cents, Jimi I agree with you in 100%. I remember when I first tried to install FreeBSD. It was simply a Horror! After about three times, I decided that this is not the day, when I install FreeBSD. Propably, the reason why I decided to let it go, is that I was used to Mandrake's way of installing a OS. Now, I thing that sysinstall is simply great. I could install FreeBSD with my eyes closed. But then... I thing that the FreeBSD need to decide, if: a) FreeBSD is a OS for everyone = make a GUI installer b) FreeBSD is a OS for those, who know more, that a "ordinary" user knows = stay with sysinstall or something similar The decision must me made, sooner or later (propably sooner)... Lucas Czejgis ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ [9]freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list [10]http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [11]"freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 *********************************************** Maybe this could be an option? GUI interface or sysinstall. I really like sysinstall, reading the documentation before installing FreeBSD made everything a breeze. But, I didn't do a terrific job of partitioning! I don't seriously think there is a need for a sysinstall replacement. Maybe sysinstall needs to be re-designed? -Wilyarti Howard References 1. mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org 2. mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org 3. http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy 4. mailto:freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org 5. mailto:freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org 6. mailto:lucas@office.net.pl 7. mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org 8. mailto:200403131629.21662.lucas@office.net.pl 9. mailto:freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org 10. http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy 11. mailto:freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org