From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 01:52:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4902816A4CE; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 01:52:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9CF43D3F; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 01:52:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1BgwBN-0005Fx-00; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 18:52:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:52:45 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Wes Peters wrote: > such accreditation*. I now of several Linux training programs that are > widely accepted in Linux circles but mean nothing to the average "HR > Professional" in the USA because they're not certified or accreditated > or anything like that. The Red Hat courses get some acceptance because > they're at least "vendor" coursework. I am meeting with LPI at the end of this month. LPI has "Linux" in their name, but they hope to focus not specifically on Linux, but more on certification for open source software, like Apache, LAMP, Perl, etc. I will be talking with them about Apache mainly, but also be discussing *BSD certifications. And discussion working with them to run a job task analysis. By the way, I'm teaching a FreeBSD class in Seattle in a couple weeks. http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 02:25:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6346B16A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:25:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 031D543D2F for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:25:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from carnaily@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 21199 invoked by uid 417); 4 Jul 2004 02:18:47 -0000 Received: from charleston-.softhome.net (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.2.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 02:18:47 -0000 Received: from Smartster ([81.1.195.2]) (AUTH: LOGIN carnaily@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:18:46 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: Message-ID: From: Andreas Carnaily Organization: Stanbury Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 03:19:08 -0000 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera7.23/FreeBSD M2 build 518 X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to 7bit by courier 0.38 cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:25:40 -0000 On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I am meeting with LPI at the end of this month. LPI has "Linux" in their > name, but they hope to focus not specifically on Linux, but more on > certification for open source software, like Apache, LAMP, Perl, etc. > > I will be talking with them about Apache mainly, but also be discussing > *BSD certifications. And discussion working with them to run a job task > analysis. I could not find any BSD certifications exam at brainbench.com... What should we do to place our exam on brainbench? Could I help this somehow? I think it's great miss... And if there somewhere any certification' site allow me to get ANY BSD certificate? Andreas Carnaily Monster is not alone in the world. It has a friends. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 12:04:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAD616A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:04:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4C843D48 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:04:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1Bh5kH-0002Zs-0j; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:05:21 +0100 Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:05:20 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040704120520.GJ43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Mike Tibor Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:04:35 -0000 On Sat, Jul 03, 2004 at 06:09:45PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > I'm sure the advocacy list wouldn't mind a discussion of training, > it's been mostly dead for quite a while. If somebody wants something > more directed, that's good too. I think a training program with some > accreditation would be great, but I don't know how to go about getting > such accreditation*. I now of several Linux training programs that are > widely accepted in Linux circles but mean nothing to the average "HR > Professional" in the USA because they're not certified or accreditated > or anything like that. The Red Hat courses get some acceptance because > they're at least "vendor" coursework. Did you actually read the link I sent? Just asking, because it explains some of this... http://vagueware.com/Open_Training > (*I'm not even sure accreditation is a real word, but it's the one that > US education companies and school systems have adopted. When I was > looking for a university back when dinosaurs roamed the earth it was > "accredation" and "accredited.") You can accredit anything you want. So can I. The value of that accreditation is variable. One given by a famous University carries more weight than one I might provide. Accreditation really means nothing more than a set of processes that are a little like quality control processes in engineering. In other words, the FreeBSD project can accredit learning it feels is suitable. This is the way forward. As my notes indicate, we do NOT want to be talking to existing training companies about this, because they can not, and will not, reflect what is actually needed. I work full-time in a UK University, and deal with accreditation of e-learning materials in the "digitial media sector". The quality of Unix training is SHOCKING. I mean, truly, truly awful. I saw a piece of content last week which was just outright ridiculous. For example, here is one of their assessment questions: Which of the following companies has never produced a version of Unix: 1. AT&T 2. Berkley University 3. IBM 4. Microsoft Now, I know, you know, we all know, ALL of them have been involved in Unix, but according to this firm, IBM have never produced a version of Unix. Yes, AIX wasn't a very good Unix, but even so... A more open training and accreditation model based on existing high-quality materials such as the Handbook is a much, much, much better way to do it. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 12:10:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13CC616A4CE; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:10:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D555943D41; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:10:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1Bh5pw-0002ax-KD; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:11:12 +0100 Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:11:12 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-ID: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:10:26 -0000 On Sat, Jul 03, 2004 at 06:52:40PM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I am meeting with LPI at the end of this month. LPI has "Linux" in their > name, but they hope to focus not specifically on Linux, but more on > certification for open source software, like Apache, LAMP, Perl, etc. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Seriously, go look at the quality of their content and accreditations. The traditional accreditation model does not hold up when it comes to open source. LPI are trying to position themselves as the "Vendor" in a vendor-certification, whereas it should be those involved in the project who is doing that. > I will be talking with them about Apache mainly, but also be discussing > *BSD certifications. And discussion working with them to run a job task > analysis. I strongly suspect that a user could get just as much learning out of reading the Handbook and a few other resources as they would with any of these courses, yet they would pay a huge amount of money for it, just to get some letters after their name that most employers don't recognise. Dangerous game in my opinion. I've posted this three times now, but nobody at all seems to realise this is a wiki and they can add to it or edit it, but I think you might find some interesting reading in: http://vagueware.com/Open_Training -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 12:17:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52D216A4CE; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:17:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7511443D2F; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:17:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1Bh5wa-0002iy-UW; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:18:04 +0100 Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:18:04 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Andreas Carnaily Message-ID: <20040704121804.GL43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:17:19 -0000 On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 03:19:08AM -0000, Andreas Carnaily wrote: > I could not find any BSD certifications exam at brainbench.com... Good. They are the kind of training site your mother should have warned you about. No proper certification or accreditation, just a way for them to make cash. Quite a lot of their material is inaccurate or concentrates on the wrong areas anyway, IMHO. > And if there somewhere any certification' site > allow me to get ANY BSD certificate? Pay me $500, I'll give you a piece of paper that declares you an First Class graduate at the Mancunian School of BSD Unix Expertise. Will that do? :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 13:29:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AEB16A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:28:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D5E43D4C for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:28:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([64.230.30.218]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040704132858.YLVY21087.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]> for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:28:58 -0400 Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:31:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> Message-ID: <20040704083710.A546@dru.domain.org> References: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: direction for training X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:29:00 -0000 Okay, I'm the one that re-opened this can of worms. And I'd like to start sorting through them so that this time something concrete starts to happen. Here's some of the pieces we have to start with: 1. An increasing pool of BSD knowledge resources--a totally revamped handbook, the books by McKusick, Lucas, Anderson, Lehey, Tiemann and myself, and online tutorials such as those at Onlamp. Quality information is definitely out there, but it is left to the user to figure it out on their own. In itself, that's a great intro to troubleshooting and the life of a sysadmin. However, it does leave knowledge gaps that would be better addressed by the combo of a good curriculum/good instructor. 2. The training provided by Daemonnews and Pugent Sound Technology are an excellent start at addressing the big void of nothingness. However, BSD needs a bigger training vision. Something that results in a tangible something (diploma or certificate) stamped by a governing body that holds recognition. And something that addresses the availability issue. Training that is only available in a handful of US cities is useless to the 99% of the user base that doesn't have ready access to those cities or the funds to get there. I think we've proved several times in the past that developing that training vision won't happen with another week long thread in the advocacy list. It'll take a handful of dedicated people with some time and the willingness to work together to hammer out the details, do the research, and start the necessary balls rolling. (Keep in mind that handful of people will need a lot of input from the entire BSD community). We have an opportunity to put together some quality training for a quality OS. The talent we need to put it all together is definitely out there; the need is definitely out there. The question is, how do we start? David and Mike have made potential offers of a mailing list. Paul has started a wiki with some excellent starting points. Let's pick one to be the official resource so we can advertise its existence so interested parties know where to contribute. Whatever avenue is taken, it'll be messy during the first phase of brainstorming... Also, I see all 3 BSDs as BSD and would like to see a curriculum that addresses all aspects of BSD. Do others agree that this shouldn't be a FreeBSD-baby and should be open to input from all of the BSDs? I better go drink some coffee. Dru From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 15:35:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6382316A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:35:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B990743D49 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:35:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) i64FZ9kK058858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:35:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost)id i64FZ8sh058857; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:35:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:35:08 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman To: Dru Message-ID: <20040704153508.GA58009@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Dru , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> <20040704083710.A546@dru.domain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040704083710.A546@dru.domain.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Greylist: Message not sent from an IPv4 address, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.3 (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [0.0.0.0]); Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:35:09 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040612, clamav-milter version 0.72a on smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: direction for training X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:35:18 -0000 --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 09:31:03AM -0400, Dru wrote: > Also, I see all 3 BSDs as BSD and would like to see a curriculum that=20 > addresses all aspects of BSD. Do others agree that this shouldn't be a=20 > FreeBSD-baby and should be open to input from all of the BSDs? How much of what you need to know to be a FreeBSD admin is specifically FreeBSD related? A great deal of the material is not just common to all the *BSD family, but to any Unixoid system (shell scripting for example) or to any sort of computer. Consider, for example vinum(8). To use vinum, you should understand concepts like "what is RAID 1", "hardware vs software raid" and "what are the pros- and cons- of using volumne management", none of which are FreeBSD specific. Background knowledge should include what alternative RAID systems are available on various different OSes -- to just list a few of the software RAID systems: Solaris ODS, Vertias VxVM, vinum(8), RaidFrame, LVM, even if it doesn't go much beyond a one-liner describing each of them. Such is the basic theory that anyone working on any sort of system would have to learn about first. *BSD specific material then follows in, say, the practical details of using vinum -- how to build a RAID filesystem, installing the system using a mirrored root, recovery from a failed hard drive, interaction with GEOM under 5.x, etc. That's not to mention related things like ccd(4) or atacontrol(8). Such knowledge is purely factual, and relatively easily to test on-line. Similar modules could be constructed for other areas of system function, and presumably students could work towards a diploma or somesuch by getting a passing grade in a certain number of modules. However, at some point it will become more valuable to the student or to any prospective employer to add modules covering implementations on many different OSes. Going beyond mere regurgitation of facts and starting to do useful problem solving requires integration of knowledge from many such modules. A good sysadmin has to be able to create a synthesis of their general knowledge on a wide range of subjects, and the specific information about hardware and software they know or can gather through research in order to solve problems like "How can we increase the IO throughput on our database service with minimal cost and minimal disruption to live services" or "spec. out the hardware and software needed to provide an e-mail service for a company of such and such size, that sends so many messages per day, allowing for a reasonable expected growth over the next 18 months" This third level of competence is where the real value of the qualifications would lie. However it's the hardest level to assess anyone at -- questions may not have obviously right or wrong answers, and can't be tested using multiple choice. It's also impossible to do well without practical experience, either in a lab setting or simply by learning on the job. Cheers, Matthew --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA6COsiD657aJF7eIRAsrYAJ90shNtAQYhqBm/La1v3/UTZivCIACfcUTO X2d7QgGWGBpguF07K9xOKNo= =03gD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 19:28:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AE716A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:28:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 67BA643D46 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:28:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from carnaily@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 17057 invoked by uid 417); 4 Jul 2004 19:28:06 -0000 Received: from charleston-.softhome.net (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.2.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 19:28:06 -0000 Received: from Smartster ([81.1.195.2]) (AUTH: LOGIN carnaily@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:28:05 -0600 Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:28:32 -0000 To: Paul Robinson References: <20040704121804.GL43549@iconoplex.co.uk> From: Andreas Carnaily Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040704121804.GL43549@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Opera7.23/FreeBSD M2 build 518 X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to 7bit by courier 0.38 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:28:09 -0000 On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:18:04 +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 03:19:08AM -0000, Andreas Carnaily wrote: > >> I could not find any BSD certifications exam at brainbench.com... > > Good. They are the kind of training site your mother should have warned > you > about. No proper certification or accreditation, just a way for them to > make > cash. Quite a lot of their material is inaccurate or concentrates on the > wrong areas anyway, IMHO. > >> And if there somewhere any certification' site >> allow me to get ANY BSD certificate? > > Pay me $500, I'll give you a piece of paper that declares you an First > Class > graduate at the Mancunian School of BSD Unix Expertise. Will that do? :-) Your words a little sarcasmic I feel... 500$... ***(grins)*** Great! I can pay this, only if paper is golden. But what about "US Search Verification"? I need my sertificate to be verificated. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 4 22:03:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CBB16A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:03:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D270F43D55 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:03:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-147-157.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.147.157]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253806EEF1; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 18:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 2AE8520F22; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:02:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:02:57 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Dru , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040704220257.GS77848@over-yonder.net> References: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> <20040704083710.A546@dru.domain.org> <20040704153508.GA58009@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040704153508.GA58009@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 Subject: Re: direction for training X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:03:01 -0000 On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 04:35:08PM +0100 I heard the voice of Matthew Seaman, and lo! it spake thus: > > Consider, for example vinum(8). To use vinum, you should understand > concepts like "what is RAID 1", "hardware vs software raid" and > "what are the pros- and cons- of using volumne management", none of > which are FreeBSD specific. Background knowledge should include > what alternative RAID systems are available on various different > OSes -- to just list a few of the software RAID systems: Solaris > ODS, Vertias VxVM, vinum(8), RaidFrame, LVM, even if it doesn't go > much beyond a one-liner describing each of them. > > Such is the basic theory that anyone working on any sort of system > would have to learn about first. *BSD specific material then > follows in, say, the practical details of using vinum -- how to > build a RAID filesystem, installing the system using a mirrored > root, recovery from a failed hard drive, interaction with GEOM under > 5.x, etc. That's not to mention related things like ccd(4) or > atacontrol(8). And, coincidentally (or not), these details are precisely the sort of thing most of us would never bother to store in our heads, since it's right there in the manpages or the handbooks or the websites and can be pulled out in moments when we need it. It's the background knowledge and the context we need to "know", so we'll know where to look and know how to understand the details of setting up one implementation. > Going beyond mere regurgitation of facts and starting to do useful > problem solving requires integration of knowledge from many such > modules. And is terribly difficult to test on a small scale, in much the same way that a map containing all the detail is the same size as the territory. This is why experience must, practically (wet dreams of Personnel personnel to the contrary), always trump examination or training or certification. And, of course, if you COULD make the test sufficiently hard and sufficiently realistic to substitute for experience, you'd need the experience to pass the test, making it useless for what seems to be the purpose of certifications as alternatives to experience. You might say there's a little problem there 8-} -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 07:36:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439EE16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:36:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60EF43D48 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:36:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) i657aRU9066971 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:36:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost)id i657aP1Y066970; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:36:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:36:25 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20040705073625.GA66477@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Dru , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> <40E758D9.9060609@softweyr.com> <20040704083710.A546@dru.domain.org> <20040704153508.GA58009@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> <20040704220257.GS77848@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040704220257.GS77848@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Greylist: Message not sent from an IPv4 address, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.3 (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [0.0.0.0]); Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:36:27 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040612, clamav-milter version 0.72a on smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: direction for training X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:36:34 -0000 --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 05:02:57PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Sun, Jul 04, 2004 at 04:35:08PM +0100 I heard the voice of > Matthew Seaman, and lo! it spake thus: > >=20 > > Consider, for example vinum(8). To use vinum, you should understand > > concepts like "what is RAID 1", "hardware vs software raid" and > > "what are the pros- and cons- of using volumne management", none of > > which are FreeBSD specific. Background knowledge should include > > what alternative RAID systems are available on various different > > OSes -- to just list a few of the software RAID systems: Solaris > > ODS, Vertias VxVM, vinum(8), RaidFrame, LVM, even if it doesn't go > > much beyond a one-liner describing each of them. > >=20 > > Such is the basic theory that anyone working on any sort of system > > would have to learn about first. *BSD specific material then > > follows in, say, the practical details of using vinum -- how to > > build a RAID filesystem, installing the system using a mirrored > > root, recovery from a failed hard drive, interaction with GEOM under > > 5.x, etc. That's not to mention related things like ccd(4) or > > atacontrol(8). >=20 > And, coincidentally (or not), these details are precisely the sort of > thing most of us would never bother to store in our heads, since it's > right there in the manpages or the handbooks or the websites and can > be pulled out in moments when we need it. It's the background > knowledge and the context we need to "know", so we'll know where to > look and know how to understand the details of setting up one > implementation. Absolutely true -- although having gone through the process of finding out this stuff one time as a learning exercise, you do gain a sense of what is actually possible and tend to remember more about /where/ and /how/ to find the fiddling details. It's the big secret of education, certainly at University level or above: you don't learn what you are taught, so much as you learn how to teach yourself what you need. It's also the case that the vast majority of what is done with *BSD is not *BSD specific. Big software packages like Apache or Samba or MySQL run on practically any platform. Perhaps the conclusion should be that teaching someone to administer *BSD is not hugely useful; but using *BSD to teach someone Systems Administration -- now that is a different kettle of fish. =20 > > Going beyond mere regurgitation of facts and starting to do useful > > problem solving requires integration of knowledge from many such > > modules. >=20 > And is terribly difficult to test on a small scale, in much the same > way that a map containing all the detail is the same size as the > territory. This is why experience must, practically (wet dreams of > Personnel personnel to the contrary), always trump examination or > training or certification. And, of course, if you COULD make the test > sufficiently hard and sufficiently realistic to substitute for > experience, you'd need the experience to pass the test, making it > useless for what seems to be the purpose of certifications as > alternatives to experience. >=20 > You might say there's a little problem there 8-} I don't think certification should ever be seen as an alternative to experience. On the whole, I would be violently in agreement with the sort of qualification you could only get by by having sufficient experience. If you like, it's the difference between being a Journeyman and being a Master. Having a series of qualifications recognising having passed through those various stages is certainly worthwhile. On the other hand, having a bit of paper with "FreeBSD" written on it could well be the key to getting past the sorts of HR departments who haven't got a clue what FreeBSD actually is. You know, and I know that anyone with experience of managing any sort of unixoid system[1] can adapt to a different unixoid system within a very short time and be very productive. Most hiring departments nowadays seem not to understand that: they just want to see specific key words on the CV. Cheers, Matthew [1] By which I mean Unix or Linux, and more than just fiddling around with webmin. --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA6QT5iD657aJF7eIRAvQeAJ4mfYwDatccSYVMnY5CAh0Tpn8U6QCgmiBs lvdVV18r6KZiXdItFsLcxtw= =Oazg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EVF5PPMfhYS0aIcm-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 11:01:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F6016A4D0 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:01:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2448343D2D for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:01:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i65B1nrL055493 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:01:49 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i65B1mm8055487 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:01:48 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:01:48 GMT Message-Id: <200407051101.i65B1mm8055487@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:01:49 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2004/06/04] advocacy/67580advocacy Hints for boot failures. 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 14:02:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B3C16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:02:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38C743D64; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:01:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1BhU2X-0008H1-00; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:01:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:01:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <20040704121112.GK43549@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:02:00 -0000 On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > > I am meeting with LPI at the end of this month. LPI has "Linux" in their > > name, but they hope to focus not specifically on Linux, but more on > > certification for open source software, like Apache, LAMP, Perl, etc. > > I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Seriously, go look at the quality > of their content and accreditations. The traditional accreditation model > does not hold up when it comes to open source. LPI are trying to position > themselves as the "Vendor" in a vendor-certification, whereas it should be > those involved in the project who is doing that. > > > I will be talking with them about Apache mainly, but also be discussing > > *BSD certifications. And discussion working with them to run a job task > > analysis. > > I strongly suspect that a user could get just as much learning out of > reading the Handbook and a few other resources as they would with any of > these courses, yet they would pay a huge amount of money for it, just to get > some letters after their name that most employers don't recognise. Dangerous > game in my opinion. I have not idea what you are talking about. LPI does not offer any courses. LPI purposely distances itself from any books, courseware, and courses. Also, LPI does not expect anyone to pay a huge a mount of money. In fact, LPI is concerned with the amount paid now ($100 per cert) because of the extreme expense in many countries. They hope to drastically reduce the monetary price. As for learning via reading: that is fine for many -- including myself. But many students need the extra push by actually attending a structured, hands-on class. Also classes, even running at a slow pace, can cover a lot more than a student trying to self-teach themselves. Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 5 17:08:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2821816A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:08:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web60404.mail.yahoo.com (web60404.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.187]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B4A9943D1F for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:08:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040705170806.47946.qmail@web60404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.127.35.222] by web60404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:08:06 PDT Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:08:06 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: Paul Robinson , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040704120520.GJ43549@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: Mike Tibor Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:08:07 -0000 The > quality of Unix > training is SHOCKING. I mean, truly, truly awful. I'd like to take this opportunity to plug the junior college system in California. While your mileage may vary as to the know-how of the instructor and the quality of the course material, I took a Unix admin class last year that was awesome and it was dirt cheap - I'm talking roughly $200 for the book (Linux Administration Handbook) and fees all together. The instructor was a veteran admin who taught everything from the command line and spent time on the basics like vi, run levels, etc., and de-emphasized vendor tools like admintool and Mandrake's doohicky. He used RH for the class but I did everything on FBSD and someone else used Sol8 and everything worked with small mods. Here is his new class: http://www1.socccd.cc.ca.us/eservices/ClassDetail.asp?sectionID=22395&termid=20043 This JC is building a multi-semester Unix program to match the MCSE stuff they teach. This is a potent way to use an already existing infrastructure to expose people to *nix whose only experience thus far is with MS (who pays JCs to plaster their students with MS classes). ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 6 06:16:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8394116A4CE; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:16:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6263443D5E; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:16:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from trhodes@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (trhodes@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i666GWmJ086265; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:16:32 GMT (envelope-from trhodes@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from trhodes@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i666GWGT086261; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:16:32 GMT (envelope-from trhodes) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:16:32 GMT From: Tom Rhodes Message-Id: <200407060616.i666GWGT086261@freefall.freebsd.org> To: trhodes@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: advocacy/67580: Hints for boot failures. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:16:32 -0000 Synopsis: Hints for boot failures. Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-advocacy->freebsd-bugs Responsible-Changed-By: trhodes Responsible-Changed-When: Tue Jul 6 06:15:46 GMT 2004 Responsible-Changed-Why: Move to bugs. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=67580