From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 18:26:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5316A4CE for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:26:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4AF43D39 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:26:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBLINkh9051917; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:23:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)iBLINkfq051914; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:23:46 GMT (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:23:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <67697.1103392317@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:26:49 -0000 On Sat, 18 Dec 2004, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Brainteaser for the x-mas days: > > What is the correct handling of busy device vnodes belonging > to a devfs mountpoint which is being forcefully unmounted ? > > If you think this has a simple answer, please don't bother replying. Being something of a traditionalist, I'd ask the question: what happens in 4.x when you forceably unmount a UFS file system out from under the device nodes? I'm guessing we deadfs the UFS vnodes, which results in varying degrees of havoc depending on the device type? Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Principal Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 18:35:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D4716A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:35:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A5C43D2F; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:35:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBLIZ0dc081691; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:35:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Robert Watson From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:23:46 GMT." Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <81690.1103654100@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:35:03 -0000 In message , Robe rt Watson writes: > >On Sat, 18 Dec 2004, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> Brainteaser for the x-mas days: >> >> What is the correct handling of busy device vnodes belonging >> to a devfs mountpoint which is being forcefully unmounted ? >> >> If you think this has a simple answer, please don't bother replying. > >Being something of a traditionalist, I'd ask the question: what happens in >4.x when you forceably unmount a UFS file system out from under the device >nodes? I'm guessing we deadfs the UFS vnodes, which results in varying >degrees of havoc depending on the device type? It's worse: we specfs the vnodes which results in varying degress of success, depending on device type. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 20:29:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB8C16A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:29:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from beastie.mckusick.com (dsl081-247-227.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.247.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B9D43D1F; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:29:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mckusick@mckusick.com) Received: from beastie.mckusick.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beastie.mckusick.com (8.12.8/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBLKT05S044869; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mckusick@beastie.mckusick.com) Message-Id: <200412212029.iBLKT05S044869@beastie.mckusick.com> To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:35:00 +0100." Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:29:00 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:29:02 -0000 > To: Robert Watson > From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:23:46 GMT." > Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:35:00 +0100 > Message-ID: <81690.1103654100@critter.freebsd.dk> > Cc: arch@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... > X-ASK-Info: Whitelist match > > In message , Robe > rt Watson writes: > > > >On Sat, 18 Dec 2004, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >> Brainteaser for the x-mas days: > >> > >> What is the correct handling of busy device vnodes belonging > >> to a devfs mountpoint which is being forcefully unmounted ? > >> > >> If you think this has a simple answer, please don't bother replying. > > > >Being something of a traditionalist, I'd ask the question: what happens in > >4.x when you forceably unmount a UFS file system out from under the device > >nodes? I'm guessing we deadfs the UFS vnodes, which results in varying > >degrees of havoc depending on the device type? > > It's worse: we specfs the vnodes which results in varying degress of success, > depending on device type. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Poul-Henning is correct. To elaborate, the operations vector for device vnodes have historivcally been built up from a mix of specfs opertions which deal with the mechanics of doing I/O (read, write, strategy, ioctl, etc) and the containing filesystem (UFS, NFS) operations for naming (open, stat, chown, chmod, rename, etc). When the containing filesystem is forcibly unmounted, the naming operations are stripped away leaving only the I/O operations. Thus read, write, strategy, and such continue to work, but name related operations on the descriptor (fstat, fchown, fchmod, etc) will fail as the underlying naming operations are gone. I still believe that this is a reasonable approach as it lets things like the disk continue to operate when an unmount is done. The code to detect device aliases was there in part to ensure that if a new device node showed up, it would be associated with an existing opened device vnode rather than resulting in the creation of a new vnode. The effect was to reassociate the orphaned vnode from the previously mounted filesystem with the new naming information. Kirk McKusick From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 21:17:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CB716A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:17:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4BA743D1D; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:16:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBLLGrX1084302; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:16:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Kirk McKusick From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:29:00 PST." <200412212029.iBLKT05S044869@beastie.mckusick.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:16:53 +0100 Message-ID: <84301.1103663813@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:17:01 -0000 In message <200412212029.iBLKT05S044869@beastie.mckusick.com>, Kirk McKusick wr ites: >Poul-Henning is correct. To elaborate, the operations vector for device >vnodes have historivcally been built up from a mix of specfs opertions >which deal with the mechanics of doing I/O (read, write, strategy, ioctl, >etc) and the containing filesystem (UFS, NFS) operations for naming (open, >stat, chown, chmod, rename, etc). When the containing filesystem is >forcibly unmounted, the naming operations are stripped away leaving >only the I/O operations. Thus read, write, strategy, and such continue >to work, but name related operations on the descriptor (fstat, fchown, >fchmod, etc) will fail as the underlying naming operations are gone. >I still believe that this is a reasonable approach as it lets things >like the disk continue to operate when an unmount is done. But the question in my mind is: do we really want disks/devices to continue working if we forcefully unmount a devfs instance ? Today, the main if not only use for multiple devfs instances are chroot/jail, and if I wear my jail-warden uniform for a moment, I would expect that a forceful unmount of /some/jail/dev would mean "just kill anything that prevents me from doing a normal umount of this devfs instance". Problem with that is that we get into cascading forced unmounts, which I in my jail warden outfit would love to just Do The Right Thing, but as a kernel hacker I know how many panics are just waiting for that to happen... So as I see it, we have to possible ways it can work: Either disable forceful unmount of devfs, which makes sense from KISS and many other principles, and then jail wardens will have to find other ways to clean up their jails Or make forceful unmounts kill any process which holds it busy, unmount any filesystem using a device from it and then clean up and leave. The one option I don't like is: unmount and leave all sorts of stuff in weird intermediate states from which the administrator may not be able to recover. The more I think about it, the more I lean towards the first option. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 21:32:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6551A16A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:32:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83FE43D39; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:32:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.12] (g4.samsco.home [192.168.254.12]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBLLa2ii079988; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:36:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41C89672.3000808@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:32:34 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040514 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <84301.1103663813@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <84301.1103663813@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=3.8 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on pooker.samsco.org cc: Kirk McKusick cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:32:40 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <200412212029.iBLKT05S044869@beastie.mckusick.com>, Kirk McKusick wr > ites: > > >>Poul-Henning is correct. To elaborate, the operations vector for device >>vnodes have historivcally been built up from a mix of specfs opertions >>which deal with the mechanics of doing I/O (read, write, strategy, ioctl, >>etc) and the containing filesystem (UFS, NFS) operations for naming (open, >>stat, chown, chmod, rename, etc). When the containing filesystem is >>forcibly unmounted, the naming operations are stripped away leaving >>only the I/O operations. Thus read, write, strategy, and such continue >>to work, but name related operations on the descriptor (fstat, fchown, >>fchmod, etc) will fail as the underlying naming operations are gone. >>I still believe that this is a reasonable approach as it lets things >>like the disk continue to operate when an unmount is done. > > > But the question in my mind is: do we really want disks/devices to > continue working if we forcefully unmount a devfs instance ? > > Today, the main if not only use for multiple devfs instances are > chroot/jail, and if I wear my jail-warden uniform for a moment, I > would expect that a forceful unmount of /some/jail/dev would mean > "just kill anything that prevents me from doing a normal umount > of this devfs instance". > > Problem with that is that we get into cascading forced unmounts, > which I in my jail warden outfit would love to just Do The Right Thing, > but as a kernel hacker I know how many panics are just waiting for > that to happen... > > So as I see it, we have to possible ways it can work: > > Either disable forceful unmount of devfs, which makes sense from > KISS and many other principles, and then jail wardens will have to > find other ways to clean up their jails > > Or make forceful unmounts kill any process which holds it busy, > unmount any filesystem using a device from it and then clean > up and leave. > > The one option I don't like is: unmount and leave all sorts of stuff > in weird intermediate states from which the administrator may not > be able to recover. > > The more I think about it, the more I lean towards the first option. > I think that I'd agree here from the point of view of finding an expedient way to keep from shooting off feet. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 23:23:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A30116A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:23:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA2D43D55; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:23:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 64A1051288; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:23:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:23:54 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <84301.1103663813@critter.freebsd.dk> <41C89672.3000808@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41C89672.3000808@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Kirk McKusick cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:23:55 -0000 --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 02:32:34PM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > >Either disable forceful unmount of devfs, which makes sense from > >KISS and many other principles, and then jail wardens will have to > >find other ways to clean up their jails > >The more I think about it, the more I lean towards the first option. > > >=20 > I think that I'd agree here from the point of view of finding an=20 > expedient way to keep from shooting off feet. Unfortunately that's going to cause me a fair amount of pain, unless there's a simple way to kill all processes running in a given chroot (NB: I don't currently use jails because a number of ports won't build in a jail) so I can free up the devfs and then unmount it. Kris --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByLCKWry0BWjoQKURAjWxAKCmeNLmkEFmdVVqzwBqV0BkkD5ZzACgwhOC 1F/zAZ+GqD46r0vwl+nmGhw= =Fu5I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 23:25:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0809E16A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:25:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EF343D39; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:25:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBLNPZjX091428; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:25:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Kris Kennaway From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:23:54 PST." <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:25:35 +0100 Message-ID: <91427.1103671535@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: Kirk McKusick cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:25:38 -0000 In message <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway writes: > >--W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Disposition: inline >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 02:32:34PM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > >> >Either disable forceful unmount of devfs, which makes sense from >> >KISS and many other principles, and then jail wardens will have to >> >find other ways to clean up their jails > >> >The more I think about it, the more I lean towards the first option. >> > >>=20 >> I think that I'd agree here from the point of view of finding an=20 >> expedient way to keep from shooting off feet. > >Unfortunately that's going to cause me a fair amount of pain, unless >there's a simple way to kill all processes running in a given chroot >(NB: I don't currently use jails because a number of ports won't build >in a jail) so I can free up the devfs and then unmount it. But unmounting it forcefully is not guaranteed to clean up your chroot today... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 21 23:34:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F6616A4CE; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:34:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0959143D3F; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:34:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F32B951288; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:34:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 15:34:41 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20041221233441.GA28661@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org> <91427.1103671535@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <91427.1103671535@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: Kirk McKusick cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long cc: Robert Watson cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:34:43 -0000 --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 12:25:35AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway wri= tes: > > > >--W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > >Content-Disposition: inline > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 02:32:34PM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > > > >> >Either disable forceful unmount of devfs, which makes sense from > >> >KISS and many other principles, and then jail wardens will have to > >> >find other ways to clean up their jails > > > >> >The more I think about it, the more I lean towards the first option. > >> > > >>=3D20 > >> I think that I'd agree here from the point of view of finding an=3D20 > >> expedient way to keep from shooting off feet. > > > >Unfortunately that's going to cause me a fair amount of pain, unless > >there's a simple way to kill all processes running in a given chroot > >(NB: I don't currently use jails because a number of ports won't build > >in a jail) so I can free up the devfs and then unmount it. >=20 > But unmounting it forcefully is not guaranteed to clean up your > chroot today... Well, at least the filesystem presence disappears so I can reuse the mountpoint. Kris --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByLMRWry0BWjoQKURAk6dAKDD+Jius+g3EmW4TZnyaxgLZvDs2gCgq23c BgZRgDjQsGpzySeglye7GOk= =R4oY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --a8Wt8u1KmwUX3Y2C-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 00:05:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F98516A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:05:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF66843D1D; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:05:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBM022Hg063387; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:02:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)iBM01p6F063382; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:02:02 GMT (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:01:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Joe Kelsey In-Reply-To: <1102975803.30309.196.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: stable@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fixing Posix semaphores X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:05:05 -0000 On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Joe Kelsey wrote: > I have a desire to fix posix semaphores in at least 5.3. The current > implementation doesn't actually follow the "spirit" of the standard, > even though it technically qualifies in a somewhat degraded sense. I > refer to the fact that the current implementation treats posix > semaphores as completely contained inside the kernel and essentially > divorced from the filesystem. The true "spirit" of the standard places > the semaphores directly in the file system, similar to named pipes. > However the current implementation treats the supplied "name" as a > 14-character identifier, required to begin with a slash and contain no > other slashes. Pretty weak. > > Well, in order to fix this, we need to add file system code and come up > with a new type. I currently have some time to spend on something like > this and am willing to put in whatever effort it takes. Does anyone > want to add their own ideas or requirements? >From my perspective, the biggest win here is that it would permit different name spaces to trivially exist using multiple mountpoints of a "semfs". This would make it easy to allow applications in different jails to use identical names without colliding. FWIW, my only experience with POSIX semaphores on a system other than FreeBSD is on Darwin, where a similar model is used to that on FreeBSD: a flat kernel-maintained name space is present. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Principal Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 01:01:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0C816A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:01:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9B143D1D for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:01:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 78E158567D; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:31:43 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:31:43 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Message-ID: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ceuyUbi+oA5bUa/n" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Subject: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:01:47 -0000 --ceuyUbi+oA5bUa/n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm currently looking at a debug printout which contains: xerrno =3D 17,=20 To find out what that means, I need to go to /usr/src/include/sys/errno.h and look for 17. I find: #define EEXIST 17 /* File exists */ If we were to change this to=20 enum EEXIST =3D 17; /* File exists */ I'd then be able to see: xerrno =3D EEXIST,=20 That makes debugging a whole lot easier. About the only down side I can see is that you can't #undef an enum. Is this a big deal? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --ceuyUbi+oA5bUa/n Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByMd3IubykFB6QiMRAsqsAKCdn6bk1DLHe42IG/A60WA0zsb2zwCgtBzs EKAabKQs9Be0pFp64FF86hM= =ky4I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ceuyUbi+oA5bUa/n-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 01:15:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89C316A4D1 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:15:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gandalf.online.bg (gandalf.online.bg [217.75.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB62443D58 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:15:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from roam@ringlet.net) Received: (qmail 2655 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 01:15:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO straylight.ringlet.net) (213.16.36.118) by gandalf.online.bg with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 01:15:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 70899 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Dec 2004 01:15:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:15:06 +0200 From: Peter Pentchev To: Robert Watson Message-ID: <20041222011506.GG801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Watson , Joe Kelsey , arch@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org References: <1102975803.30309.196.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0qt3EE9wi45a2ZFX" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: stable@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Joe Kelsey cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fixing Posix semaphores X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:15:12 -0000 --0qt3EE9wi45a2ZFX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 12:01:51AM +0000, Robert Watson wrote: >=20 > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Joe Kelsey wrote: >=20 > > I have a desire to fix posix semaphores in at least 5.3. The current > > implementation doesn't actually follow the "spirit" of the standard, > > even though it technically qualifies in a somewhat degraded sense. I > > refer to the fact that the current implementation treats posix > > semaphores as completely contained inside the kernel and essentially > > divorced from the filesystem. The true "spirit" of the standard places > > the semaphores directly in the file system, similar to named pipes.=20 > > However the current implementation treats the supplied "name" as a > > 14-character identifier, required to begin with a slash and contain no > > other slashes. Pretty weak.=20 > >=20 > > Well, in order to fix this, we need to add file system code and come up > > with a new type. I currently have some time to spend on something like > > this and am willing to put in whatever effort it takes. Does anyone > > want to add their own ideas or requirements?=20 >=20 > >From my perspective, the biggest win here is that it would permit > different name spaces to trivially exist using multiple mountpoints of a > "semfs". This would make it easy to allow applications in different jails > to use identical names without colliding.=20 >=20 > FWIW, my only experience with POSIX semaphores on a system other than > FreeBSD is on Darwin, where a similar model is used to that on FreeBSD: a > flat kernel-maintained name space is present. I seem to remember either W. Richard Stevens's APUE, or Marc Rochkind's AUP stating that: 1. the standards say that semaphore names ought to have filesystem semantics, but... 2. the standards leave it to the implementation to define whether slashes should be allowed at all except in the first position, so... 3. portable programs should only depend on a flat namespace, especially as... 4. there are widely-used OS's (ISTR Solaris, but ICBW) that only provide a flat namespace. Thus, it would seem that even if somebody would do the work to really tie the semaphore naming fully to the filesystem, still programs that want to be Really Really Portable would not dare use this feature, wonderful as it would be for those that do :( G'luck, Peter --=20 Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@cnsys.bg roam@FreeBSD.org PGP key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553 What would this sentence be like if pi were 3? --0qt3EE9wi45a2ZFX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByMqa7Ri2jRYZRVMRAlEPAKDDChgctYLb3u/wxshef1C9gj03kQCfeKv6 fvXZ6UOrvkG0sLS343Rmau0= =Hn9M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0qt3EE9wi45a2ZFX-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 01:39:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35CF516A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:39:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (dsl231-043-165.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.231.43.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B92443D54 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:39:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 76751 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 01:40:19 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO localhost.zircon.seattle.wa.us) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 01:40:19 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:40:19 -0800 Message-Id: <1103679619.30309.792.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fixing Posix semaphores X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:39:43 -0000 On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 00:01 +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Joe Kelsey wrote: > > > I have a desire to fix posix semaphores in at least 5.3. The current > > implementation doesn't actually follow the "spirit" of the standard, > > even though it technically qualifies in a somewhat degraded sense. I > > refer to the fact that the current implementation treats posix > > semaphores as completely contained inside the kernel and essentially > > divorced from the filesystem. The true "spirit" of the standard places > > the semaphores directly in the file system, similar to named pipes. > > However the current implementation treats the supplied "name" as a > > 14-character identifier, required to begin with a slash and contain no > > other slashes. Pretty weak. > > > > Well, in order to fix this, we need to add file system code and come up > > with a new type. I currently have some time to spend on something like > > this and am willing to put in whatever effort it takes. Does anyone > > want to add their own ideas or requirements? > > From my perspective, the biggest win here is that it would permit > different name spaces to trivially exist using multiple mountpoints of a > "semfs". This would make it easy to allow applications in different jails > to use identical names without colliding. This is the first really good idea I have seen in this discussion. Thank you very much. > FWIW, my only experience with POSIX semaphores on a system other than > FreeBSD is on Darwin, where a similar model is used to that on FreeBSD: a > flat kernel-maintained name space is present. It doesn't matter. No one uses named semaphores right now anyway, so name space issues simply do not exist. As soon as we come up with a reasonable idea and implementation, others will follow. /Joe From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 01:43:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.homeunix.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509E016A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:43:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from green.homeunix.org (green@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by green.homeunix.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBM1hFS7095379; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:43:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@green.homeunix.org) Received: (from green@localhost) by green.homeunix.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBM1hEot095378; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:43:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:43:14 -0500 From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Message-ID: <20041222014314.GB41996@green.homeunix.org> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:43:16 -0000 On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 11:31:43AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header > files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm > currently looking at a debug printout which contains: > > xerrno = 17, > > To find out what that means, I need to go to > /usr/src/include/sys/errno.h and look for 17. I find: > > #define EEXIST 17 /* File exists */ > > If we were to change this to > > enum EEXIST = 17; /* File exists */ > > I'd then be able to see: > > xerrno = EEXIST, > > That makes debugging a whole lot easier. About the only down side I > can see is that you can't #undef an enum. Is this a big deal? I think you'll screw up an awful lot of people that #ifdef based upon the errno names. -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \'[ FreeBSD ]''''''''''\ <> green@FreeBSD.org \ The Power to Serve! \ Opinions expressed are my own. \,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,\ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 02:03:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFF516A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:03:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6259043D39; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:03:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 879CC8566E; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:33:08 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:33:08 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Message-ID: <20041222020308.GX53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222014314.GB41996@green.homeunix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uk6W7isEeLAaRh3S" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222014314.GB41996@green.homeunix.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:03:11 -0000 --uk6W7isEeLAaRh3S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday, 21 December 2004 at 20:43:14 -0500, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: > On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 11:31:43AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header >> files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm >> currently looking at a debug printout which contains: >> >> xerrno = 17, >> >> To find out what that means, I need to go to >> /usr/src/include/sys/errno.h and look for 17. I find: >> >> #define EEXIST 17 /* File exists */ >> >> If we were to change this to >> >> enum EEXIST = 17; /* File exists */ >> >> I'd then be able to see: >> >> xerrno = EEXIST, >> >> That makes debugging a whole lot easier. About the only down side I >> can see is that you can't #undef an enum. Is this a big deal? > > I think you'll screw up an awful lot of people that #ifdef based upon > the errno names. *sigh* Yes, I didn't think about that. Never mind. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --uk6W7isEeLAaRh3S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByNXcIubykFB6QiMRAnIPAJ0UoutKmbc9Z/swL1oUpI5PU7MomQCdF2eA itwxj7+9WLAfAycoXmfHPAU= =gw3y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uk6W7isEeLAaRh3S-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 02:06:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B7816A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:06:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp3.server.rpi.edu (smtp3.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9803543D55; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:06:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp3.server.rpi.edu (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id iBM26XJK029844; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:06:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:06:32 -0500 To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-RPI-SA-Score: undef - spam-scanning disabled X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:06:36 -0000 At 11:31 AM +1030 12/22/04, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >To find out what that means, I need to go to >/usr/src/include/sys/errno.h and look for 17. I find: > >#define EEXIST 17 /* File exists */ > >If we were to change this to > >enum EEXIST = 17; /* File exists */ > >I'd then be able to see: > > xerrno = EEXIST, > >That makes debugging a whole lot easier. About the only down side >I can see is that you can't #undef an enum. Is this a big deal? You also can't #ifdef an enum. You also can't: enum EEXIST = 17; I'm not a C expert, but you need something more like: enum ERRVALS { EEXIST = 17 }; At least that compiles for me. Some C compilers (irix) will also complain if you assign an enum-value (such as EEXIST) to a variable which isn't of the same enum-type (eg: ERRVALS). So, in those compilers you would have to define 'xerror' as 'enum ERRVALS xerror', not 'int xerror'. I think that isn't part of the C standard, but on occassion that check has found a few bugs for me... -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 02:09:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4598E16A4CF for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:09:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (mproxy.gmail.com [216.239.56.251]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F2E43D5A for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:09:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from csujun@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id q44so92074cwc for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:09:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=ZcJYgK8m4/AFHPbT4V+9rt+u1QvpjG7RjliOgE7cg3ncuHVn60QOZ1ozFc211O6WC1icZxFUvr3FM2ZnF8tCVgfs1rA72N/HdxGYU+u6ueX90VWr4Nig+2A/Ghgwmltgpr04NoVtTGRktbZzKJMWinbby+h4YRauCFmtHsp8xTA= Received: by 10.11.94.36 with SMTP id r36mr260892cwb; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.11.118.39 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:09:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:09:43 +0800 From: Jun Su To: Andrew Gallatin In-Reply-To: <16835.1939.301128.802993@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <16835.1939.301128.802993@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> cc: alc@freebsd.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: tegge@freebsd.org cc: delphij@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Propose for Several Dump types X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jun Su List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:09:44 -0000 On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:21:39 -0500 (EST), Andrew Gallatin wrote: > > Jun Su writes: > > > Kernel-Only Dump > > ============== > > We now can use /dev/kmem as the core file. If we can generate a dump file with > > the same information with it, then we can enable kernel-only dump with > > very limit code changes. > > > > 1. Change KVM library to support a new type of file that only contains > > kernel memory. > > 2. Change kernel side to write only kernel memory when dumping. > > 3. Change dumpon utility to do the right checking on the partiction size. > > I think the kernel-only dump is an excellent idea. But I'm confused > as to how you would do it. > > To me, it seems like the most obvious way to do this would be walking > the kernel's vm maps. But that does not work on 64-bit platforms which > have a direct 1-1 physical/virtual address mapping. So how do you > quickly distinguish kernel memory from user memory in the dump > routine? I'm probably missing something simple.. My current draft idea is to traverse the vm_map structure. Then I can find out the vm_object list. Then dump those memory regions. I don't understand VM much. In this area, I need input from our VM guru... > > Thanks, > > Drew > > -- -- Jun Su From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 02:10:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20FB916A4DE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:10:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (dsl231-043-165.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [216.231.43.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E214243D54 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:10:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 76991 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 02:11:01 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO localhost.zircon.seattle.wa.us) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 02:11:01 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey To: Peter Pentchev In-Reply-To: <20041222011506.GG801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> References: <1102975803.30309.196.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <20041222011506.GG801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:11:00 -0800 Message-Id: <1103681460.30309.799.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.3 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Fixing Posix semaphores X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:10:34 -0000 On Wed, 2004-12-22 at 03:15 +0200, Peter Pentchev wrote: > On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 12:01:51AM +0000, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Joe Kelsey wrote: > > > > > I have a desire to fix posix semaphores in at least 5.3. The current > > > implementation doesn't actually follow the "spirit" of the standard, > > > even though it technically qualifies in a somewhat degraded sense. I > > > refer to the fact that the current implementation treats posix > > > semaphores as completely contained inside the kernel and essentially > > > divorced from the filesystem. The true "spirit" of the standard places > > > the semaphores directly in the file system, similar to named pipes. > > > However the current implementation treats the supplied "name" as a > > > 14-character identifier, required to begin with a slash and contain no > > > other slashes. Pretty weak. > > > > > > Well, in order to fix this, we need to add file system code and come up > > > with a new type. I currently have some time to spend on something like > > > this and am willing to put in whatever effort it takes. Does anyone > > > want to add their own ideas or requirements? > > > > >From my perspective, the biggest win here is that it would permit > > different name spaces to trivially exist using multiple mountpoints of a > > "semfs". This would make it easy to allow applications in different jails > > to use identical names without colliding. > > > > FWIW, my only experience with POSIX semaphores on a system other than > > FreeBSD is on Darwin, where a similar model is used to that on FreeBSD: a > > flat kernel-maintained name space is present. > > I seem to remember either W. Richard Stevens's APUE, or Marc Rochkind's > AUP stating that: > > 1. the standards say that semaphore names ought to have filesystem > semantics, but... > 2. the standards leave it to the implementation to define whether > slashes should be allowed at all except in the first position, so... > 3. portable programs should only depend on a flat namespace, > especially as... > 4. there are widely-used OS's (ISTR Solaris, but ICBW) that only provide > a flat namespace. > > Thus, it would seem that even if somebody would do the work to really > tie the semaphore naming fully to the filesystem, still programs that > want to be Really Really Portable would not dare use this feature, > wonderful as it would be for those that do :( I never said I wanted file system tieing. I just want pathname semantics. Here is a direct quote from the Single UNIX Specification: The name argument points to a string naming a semaphore object. It is unspecified whether the name appears in the file system and is visible to functions that take pathnames as arguments. The name argument conforms to the construction rules for a pathname. If name begins with the slash character, then processes calling sem_open() with the same value of name shall refer to the same semaphore object, as long as that name has not been removed. If name does not begin with the slash character, the effect is implementation-defined. The interpretation of slash characters other than the leading slash character in name is implementation-defined. So, there are words there that can be interpreted many different ways. The most restricted way to view them is as 14-character names optionally beginning with a slash. That also seems to me to be the stupidest way to view them. Robert's idea of semfs seems brilliant, allowing multiple name spaces for jailed processes. I plan to start thinking and working on that idea shortly. /Joe From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 03:41:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F54416A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:41:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [128.30.28.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6B443D54 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:41:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id iBM3fkaa043953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK CN=khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu issuer=SSL+20Client+20CA); Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:41:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id iBM3fj5j043952; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:41:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 22:41:45 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200412220341.iBM3fj5j043952@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us X-Newsgroups: mit.lcs.mail.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: <1103681460.30309.799.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> References: <1102975803.30309.196.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <20041222011506.GG801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science X-Spam-Score: -9.9 () IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.37 cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Fixing Posix semaphores X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 03:41:48 -0000 In article <1103681460.30309.799.camel@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> you write: >So, there are words there that can be interpreted many different ways. >The most restricted way to view them is as 14-character names optionally >beginning with a slash. That also seems to me to be the stupidest way >to view them. Robert's idea of semfs seems brilliant, allowing multiple >name spaces for jailed processes. I plan to start thinking and working >on that idea shortly. Here is an even easier way that avoids creating a special file type... sem_open() can be implemented as: fd = shm_open(name, oflag, omode); if (oflag & O_CREAT) { ftruncate(fd, sizeof(struct sem_private)); } sem_private = mmap(fd, ...); sem_private->fd = fd; sem = malloc(sizeof *sem); _sem_init(sem, sem_private, value); return (sem); The underlying semaphore can then be implemented in the standard way with a mutex, a condition variable (or simulation thereof), and a counter in the shared-memory region -- no (additional) kernel code required. (This avoids the overhead of a system call if there is no need to wait.) Alternatively, given the current kernel implementation, you can very simply convert any vnode into a 20-byte flat name for the file using VFS_VPTOFH() -- this would require only minimal changes to the existing code. -GAWollman From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 04:29:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA4E16A4CF; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:29:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from athena.softcardsystems.com (mail.softcardsystems.com [12.34.136.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F38043D54; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:29:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sah@softcardsystems.com) Received: from athena (athena [12.34.136.114])iBM5OGVS019581; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:24:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:24:16 -0500 (EST) From: Sam X-X-Sender: sah@athena To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" In-Reply-To: <20041222020308.GX53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222020308.GX53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:29:56 -0000 > On Tuesday, 21 December 2004 at 20:43:14 -0500, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 11:31:43AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header >>> files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm >>> currently looking at a debug printout which contains: >>> >>> xerrno = 17, >>> >>> To find out what that means, I need to go to >>> /usr/src/include/sys/errno.h and look for 17. I find: >>> >>> #define EEXIST 17 /* File exists */ >>> >>> If we were to change this to >>> >>> enum EEXIST = 17; /* File exists */ >>> >>> I'd then be able to see: >>> >>> xerrno = EEXIST, >>> >>> That makes debugging a whole lot easier. About the only down side I >>> can see is that you can't #undef an enum. Is this a big deal? >> >> I think you'll screw up an awful lot of people that #ifdef based upon >> the errno names. > > *sigh* Yes, I didn't think about that. Never mind. Seems a shame to forgo utility to avoid breaking a fragile assumption. Maybe an ifdef ERRNO_T in errno.h that defines an enum errno_t instead? Sam From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 09:08:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CBA16A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:08:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail25.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail25.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.133.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9B043D45; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:08:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) iBM98thj001700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:08:56 +1100 Received: from cirb503493.alcatel.com.au (localhost.alcatel.com.au [127.0.0.1])iBM98txP004497; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:08:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from pjeremy@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au) Received: (from pjeremy@localhost)iBM98t4O004496; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:08:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from pjeremy) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:08:55 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Message-ID: <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:08:58 -0000 On Wed, 2004-Dec-22 11:31:43 +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header >files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm >currently looking at a debug printout which contains: > > xerrno = 17, ... > xerrno = EEXIST, K&R2 states that errno is an "integer expression" and that the error values are "macros". I suspect POSIX and newer C standards say something similar. Also, the enum value name replacement would only occur if xerrno was of the appropriate enum type - which would make the code non-portable. An alternative suggestion for you: Write a gdb macro which takes an int and prints it as an errno. Something like a shorthand version of: print (enum { EPERM=1, ENOENT=2, ..., EILSEQ=86})xerrno should work. You would probably write a [insert scripting language of choice] script to convert into the appropriate gdb macro. -- Peter Jeremy From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 10:38:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B8616A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:38:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gandalf.online.bg (gandalf.online.bg [217.75.128.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 53A2043D45 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:38:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from roam@ringlet.net) Received: (qmail 12370 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2004 10:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO straylight.ringlet.net) (213.16.36.118) by gandalf.online.bg with SMTP; 22 Dec 2004 10:38:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 80577 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Dec 2004 10:38:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:38:44 +0200 From: Peter Pentchev To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Jeremy , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hABqaeELJqnDDeDE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:38:48 -0000 --hABqaeELJqnDDeDE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 08:08:55PM +1100, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On Wed, 2004-Dec-22 11:31:43 +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header > >files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm > >currently looking at a debug printout which contains: > > > > xerrno =3D 17,=20 > ... > > xerrno =3D EEXIST,=20 >=20 > K&R2 states that errno is an "integer expression" and that the error > values are "macros". I suspect POSIX and newer C standards say something > similar. The Single Unix Specification goes to great pains to repeat over and over again that the error codes are 'symbolic constants', which IMHO may be taken to mean either a #define'd macro or an enum value. I, too, went to check with more than half a hunch that it would mandate that the error codes be macros, but it turned out it doesn't :) Still, all the other objections about enums not really being ints are quite valid :) G'luck, Peter --=20 Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@cnsys.bg roam@FreeBSD.org PGP key: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc Key fingerprint FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E DF9E ED18 B68D 1619 4553 If you think this sentence is confusing, then change one pig. --hABqaeELJqnDDeDE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByU607Ri2jRYZRVMRAm9tAJ9U3h/IdMYLWhA2M9Uc5uKe0v4atQCfaRYn 4auVXtjQTYzr2FswtmUTkAk= =8Xtm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hABqaeELJqnDDeDE-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 13:00:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B884916A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:00:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9E543D45 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:00:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peadar.edwards@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 36so39363wra for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:00:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=PyeJSOn6vXTgWnxKf06fC9Pywn8PSd+2s+wNpVmVj3sU+FdbSq8NEddol72xj9W+ZWB4jlN5mVOrKvlwksnmmJFGYyh6QZHX4yt/FLpQWDAUyXCAd6Fo3vDkek/FDDXYkUZjHdQE/GStmcCIHCvKvDsBMPqjzMfcacxapdHtFws= Received: by 10.54.57.8 with SMTP id f8mr226813wra; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.57.76 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 05:00:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:00:50 +0000 From: Peter Edwards To: Peter Jeremy , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List In-Reply-To: <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Peter Edwards List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:00:51 -0000 > The Single Unix Specification goes to great pains to repeat over and > over again that the error codes are 'symbolic constants', which IMHO > may be taken to mean either a #define'd macro or an enum value. > I, too, went to check with more than half a hunch that it would mandate > that the error codes be macros, but it turned out it doesn't :) But "errno" itself is "int", so even if the constants for the individual errno values were defined by an enumeration, that type information would be lost to the debugger when looking at errno itself, defeating the original benefit of having the symbolic names available in the debugger. As an alternative to Peter Jeremy's suggestion of using a GDB macro, you could, of course, define a type as: typedef enum { err_EPERM = EPERM, err_ENOENT = ENOENT, /* .... */ } errno_t Then within gdb: Breakpoint 1, main (argc=1, argv=0xbfbfe55c) at e.c:21 21 int rc = write(-1, "X", 1); (gdb) n 22 pause(); (gdb) p (errno_t)errno $1 = err_EBADF (gdb) (Note if you actually try this, you need to define at least one object of the errno_t type in your program to generate the type in the executable output.) That should work in other symbolic debuggers beyond gdb. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 13:57:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34EF16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:57:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailhost.stack.nl (vaak.stack.nl [131.155.140.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FF643D1D for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:57:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jilles@stack.nl) Received: from turtle.stack.nl (turtle.stack.nl [IPv6:2001:610:1108:5010::132]) by mailhost.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8A01F1D0; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:57:34 +0100 (CET) Received: by turtle.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 1677) id BB1B81E230; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:57:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:57:34 +0100 From: Jilles Tjoelker To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20041222135734.GA57242@stack.nl> References: <84301.1103663813@critter.freebsd.dk> <41C89672.3000808@freebsd.org> <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.3-RELEASE-p2 i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:57:36 -0000 On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 03:23:54PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Unfortunately that's going to cause me a fair amount of pain, unless > there's a simple way to kill all processes running in a given chroot Not that hard, although it is a bit tricky because command names may contain spaces, so something obvious like this does not work in the general case: fstat /chroot |awk '$4 == "root" { print $3 }' But the following seems more reliable, assuming the mount points do not contain spaces: #!/bin/sh # USER CMD PID FD MOUNT INUM MODE SZ|DV R/W NAME # jilles zsh 57711 root / 2 drwxr-xr-x 1024 r / D="$1" fstat "$D" | sed -Ene 's#^.* +([[:digit:]]+) +root +/[^ ]* +[[:digit:]]+ +.......... +[[:digit:]]+ +(r|rw|w) +'"$D"'$#\1#p' This would need some |xargs kill or similar. -- Jilles Tjoelker From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 14:08:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EC616A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:08:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F6B43D31; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:08:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBME8EkV001813 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id iBME89IQ070639; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:08:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gallatin) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16841.32713.807248.102959@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:08:09 -0500 (EST) To: Jun Su In-Reply-To: References: <16835.1939.301128.802993@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid cc: alc@freebsd.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: tegge@freebsd.org cc: delphij@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Propose for Several Dump types X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:08:16 -0000 Jun Su writes: > On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:21:39 -0500 (EST), Andrew Gallatin > > To me, it seems like the most obvious way to do this would be walking > > the kernel's vm maps. But that does not work on 64-bit platforms which > > have a direct 1-1 physical/virtual address mapping. So how do you > > quickly distinguish kernel memory from user memory in the dump > > routine? I'm probably missing something simple.. > My current draft idea is to traverse the vm_map structure. Then I can > find out the vm_object list. Then dump those memory regions. I don't > understand VM much. In this area, I need input from our VM guru... Yes, we definately need the input of a VM guru.. FWIW, its my understanding that UMA does these small allocations without an object. Eg: m = vm_page_alloc(NULL, colour++, pflags | VM_ALLOC_NOOBJ); So I'm not sure how you find them. There must be some state someplace, though. Drew From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 16:06:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0248816A4D1 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:06:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web52709.mail.yahoo.com (web52709.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.160]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E248043D54 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:06:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kamalpr@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 67112 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Dec 2004 16:06:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=srtaJajv+uicKRfs4n8XT+PJxg62am5CfAgbFEONFOPbwkP8RZckd4hW3TaIaPuUt4EQ0WvyEdbgXgJ4Elq3uNcRYQ8l+GTpgYQs9bHbCaZVCICiSOK2j/1yB56dCiS0lzTEgDO2dBMjJUg/G8xAV66fZ7iOxOn2R7qTfJNoJM8= ; Message-ID: <20041222160656.67110.qmail@web52709.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.195.199.244] by web52709.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:06:56 PST Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 08:06:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Kamal R. Prasad" To: Peter Pentchev , Robert Watson In-Reply-To: <20041222011506.GG801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: stable@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Joe Kelsey cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fixing Posix semaphores X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: kamalp@acm.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:06:58 -0000 --- Peter Pentchev wrote: > On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 12:01:51AM +0000, Robert > Watson wrote: > > > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Joe Kelsey wrote: > > > > > I have a desire to fix posix semaphores in at > least 5.3. The current > > > implementation doesn't actually follow the > "spirit" of the standard, > > > even though it technically qualifies in a > somewhat degraded sense. I > > > refer to the fact that the current > implementation treats posix > > > semaphores as completely contained inside the > kernel and essentially > > > divorced from the filesystem. The true "spirit" > of the standard places > > > the semaphores directly in the file system, > similar to named pipes. > > > However the current implementation treats the > supplied "name" as a > > > 14-character identifier, required to begin with > a slash and contain no > > > other slashes. Pretty weak. > > > > > > Well, in order to fix this, we need to add file > system code and come up > > > with a new type. I currently have some time to > spend on something like > > > this and am willing to put in whatever effort it > takes. Does anyone > > > want to add their own ideas or requirements? > > > > >From my perspective, the biggest win here is that > it would permit > > different name spaces to trivially exist using > multiple mountpoints of a > > "semfs". This would make it easy to allow > applications in different jails > > to use identical names without colliding. > > > > FWIW, my only experience with POSIX semaphores on > a system other than > > FreeBSD is on Darwin, where a similar model is > used to that on FreeBSD: a > > flat kernel-maintained name space is present. > > I seem to remember either W. Richard Stevens's APUE, > or Marc Rochkind's > AUP stating that: > > 1. the standards say that semaphore names ought to > have filesystem > semantics, but... > 2. the standards leave it to the implementation to > define whether > slashes should be allowed at all except in the > first position, so... But the Posix 1003.1 does require that afully qualified pathname be supported by the interface. > 3. portable programs should only depend on a flat > namespace, > especially as... > 4. there are widely-used OS's (ISTR Solaris, but > ICBW) that only provide > a flat namespace. > > Thus, it would seem that even if somebody would do > the work to really > tie the semaphore naming fully to the filesystem, > still programs that > want to be Really Really Portable would not dare use > this feature, > wonderful as it would be for those that do :( > Well -the issue was about providing support to the interface so that it can handle a fully qualified pathname. If a programmer wants to use a flat namespace to ensure that his program is portable onto other OS'es that don't adhere to the std -that is a different issue [which does not put it in conflict with the std]. BTW -I see no reason why pathnames should be tied to the filesystem, instead of being used simply as identifiers across processes. regards -kamal > G'luck, > Peter > > -- > Peter Pentchev roam@ringlet.net roam@cnsys.bg > roam@FreeBSD.org > PGP key: > http://people.FreeBSD.org/~roam/roam.key.asc > Key fingerprint FDBA FD79 C26F 3C51 C95E DF9E ED18 > B68D 1619 4553 > What would this sentence be like if pi were 3? > > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/pgp-signature __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 17:45:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377AC16A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:45:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1CF43D31; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:45:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBMHjGAq008413; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:45:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:31:43 +1030." <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:45:16 +0100 Message-ID: <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:45:18 -0000 In message <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com>, "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" writes: >Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header >files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm >currently looking at a debug printout which contains: I agree with others who have shot this down: compatibility would not allow us to do something like that. But that is not to say that the error reporting mechanism could not be improved in other ways. One of my pet peeves is that comples system calls have no way to convey additional information about why the return a given return value like EPERM. I would almost advocate adding a char[X] to each thread and a system call which could retrieve it. Complex system calls like mount/nmount, ioctl and similar could then stick an explanation into that string which strerror(3) or err(3) and similar functions could pull out and give the user. There is a heck of a difference between getting: fdisk: permission denied And fdisk: permission denied (partitions overlap) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 17:53:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB8116A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:53:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (f170.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D9843D55 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:53:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBMHrYD2008612 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:53:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:53:34 +0100 Message-ID: <8611.1103738014@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Subject: no more in device drivers. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 17:53:35 -0000 Unless a device driver does something very magic, there should not be any reason to include anymore. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:13:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693F216A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:13:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-222-79-99.jan.bellsouth.net [68.222.79.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717B243D58; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:13:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 7E351211B5; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:13:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:13:14 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20041222181313.GJ32388@over-yonder.net> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:13:17 -0000 On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 06:45:16PM +0100 I heard the voice of Poul-Henning Kamp, and lo! it spake thus: > > One of my pet peeves is that comples system calls have no way to > convey additional information about why the return a given return > value like EPERM. > > I would almost advocate adding a char[X] to each thread and a system > call which could retrieve it. Complex system calls like > mount/nmount, ioctl and similar could then stick an explanation into > that string which strerror(3) or err(3) and similar functions could > pull out and give the user. I do roughly this in the errno-ish facility in my sadly-dormant libpostal project. My error structure looks like struct postal_errfoo_t { unsigned int postal_errno; char postal_errstr[POSTAL_ERRSTR_LEN]; }; Of course, I get to mandate that you use postal_errno() and postal_errstr() to retrieve the data. I use (1<<15) as a flag in the errno int (at least, until I get a WHOLE lot more error conditions that I have now) for when there's an extra message to be returned. I don't think I actually USE the capability anywhere right now, but it's designed in. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:20:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B3216A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:20:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp2.server.rpi.edu (smtp2.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E328A43D1D; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:20:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp2.server.rpi.edu (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id iBMIK4qo015914; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:20:03 -0500 To: Peter Edwards , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-CanItPRO-Stream: default X-RPI-SA-Score: undef - spam-scanning disabled X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:20:06 -0000 At 1:00 PM +0000 12/22/04, Peter Edwards wrote: >As an alternative to Peter Jeremy's suggestion of using a GDB >macro, you could, of course, define a type as: > >typedef enum { > err_EPERM = EPERM, > err_ENOENT = ENOENT, > /* .... */ >} errno_t > >Then within gdb: > >Breakpoint 1, main (argc=1, argv=0xbfbfe55c) at e.c:21 >21 int rc = write(-1, "X", 1); >(gdb) n >22 pause(); >(gdb) p (errno_t)errno >$1 = err_EBADF >(gdb) Ooo, that's a nice trick. >(Note if you actually try this, you need to define at least one >object of the errno_t type in your program to generate the type >in the executable output.) This note made me think of another possible trick: (gdb) printf "== '%s'\n", strerror(errno) == 'No such file or directory' I recommend the extra baggage in the print statement. Initially I happened to test this by trying: (gdb) printf "%s\n", strerror(4) Interrupted system call And I kept thinking that *gdb* was telling me the 'printf' call was getting interrupted. For a few minutes, I thought I had stumbled across some serious bug! I expect this only works if your program references strerror(), but I haven't tried it in other situations. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:36:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BFC16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:36:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B3843D2D for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:36:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBMIYdai023494; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:34:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:35:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041222.113503.53825717.imp@bsdimp.com> To: phk@phk.freebsd.dk From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <8611.1103738014@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <8611.1103738014@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: no more in device drivers. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:36:48 -0000 In message: <8611.1103738014@critter.freebsd.dk> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: : Unless a device driver does something very magic, there should not : be any reason to include anymore. Woo hoo! Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:37:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1388616A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:37:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C91643D2D; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:37:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBMIXlWS023463; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:33:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:34:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> To: peadar.edwards@gmail.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> References: <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:37:12 -0000 In order to gain the benefits of the enums, errno would need to be an enum errno_t or some such. This breaks C++ code that sets errno = 0, since you can't assign integers to errno values. So even if you retained EBOGUS or whatever, this wouldn't work with C++. errno has to be an int to work there. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:43:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D200A16A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:43:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2892543D2F; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:43:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBMIkUPx084636; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:46:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:42:29 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=3.8 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on pooker.samsco.org cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: peadar.edwards@gmail.com cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:43:02 -0000 M. Warner Losh wrote: > In order to gain the benefits of the enums, errno would need to be an > enum errno_t or some such. This breaks C++ code that sets errno = 0, > since you can't assign integers to errno values. > > So even if you retained EBOGUS or whatever, this wouldn't work with > C++. errno has to be an int to work there. > > Warner I think you might have missed that nothing was actually being declared with the errno_t type, but rather the type was used as a cast for gdb. It's a neat trick, but still a little cumbersome unless gdb was taught about it or given some clever macros. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:48:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623CC16A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:48:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0158343D31; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:48:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBMImB1P023642; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:48:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:48:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041222.114835.65987539.imp@bsdimp.com> To: scottl@FreeBSD.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> References: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: grog@FreeBSD.org cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: peadar.edwards@gmail.com cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:48:55 -0000 In message: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> Scott Long writes: : M. Warner Losh wrote: : > In order to gain the benefits of the enums, errno would need to be an : > enum errno_t or some such. This breaks C++ code that sets errno = 0, : > since you can't assign integers to errno values. : > : > So even if you retained EBOGUS or whatever, this wouldn't work with : > C++. errno has to be an int to work there. : > : > Warner : : I think you might have missed that nothing was actually being declared : with the errno_t type, but rather the type was used as a cast for gdb. : It's a neat trick, but still a little cumbersome unless gdb was taught : about it or given some clever macros. Then why bother... Is typing something complex to gdb really better than "grep $number /usr/include/sys/errno.h"? Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 18:51:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C1116A4CF; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:51:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7873143D49; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:51:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBMIpV5a023669; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:51:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:51:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041222.115155.71839775.imp@bsdimp.com> To: scottl@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> References: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: peadar.edwards@gmail.com cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:51:57 -0000 In message: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> Scott Long writes: : M. Warner Losh wrote: : > In order to gain the benefits of the enums, errno would need to be an : > enum errno_t or some such. This breaks C++ code that sets errno = 0, : > since you can't assign integers to errno values. : > : > So even if you retained EBOGUS or whatever, this wouldn't work with : > C++. errno has to be an int to work there. : > : > Warner : : I think you might have missed that nothing was actually being declared : with the errno_t type, but rather the type was used as a cast for gdb. : It's a neat trick, but still a little cumbersome unless gdb was taught : about it or given some clever macros. Or better yet, just use the array of error values already compiled into the programs that strerror() formats for you (you don't need to use strerror, just sys_errlist[]). Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 19:42:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F138816A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:42:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18CF43D1F for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:42:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2D80C512BF; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:42:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:42:46 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jilles Tjoelker Message-ID: <20041222194246.GC49344@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <84301.1103663813@critter.freebsd.dk> <41C89672.3000808@freebsd.org> <20041221232354.GA28374@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041222135734.GA57242@stack.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222135734.GA57242@stack.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Forcefully unmounting devfs... X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:42:47 -0000 --5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 02:57:34PM +0100, Jilles Tjoelker wrote: > On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 03:23:54PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Unfortunately that's going to cause me a fair amount of pain, unless > > there's a simple way to kill all processes running in a given chroot >=20 > Not that hard, although it is a bit tricky because command names may > contain spaces, so something obvious like this does not work in the > general case: >=20 > fstat /chroot |awk '$4 =3D=3D "root" { print $3 }' >=20 > But the following seems more reliable, assuming the mount points do not > contain spaces: >=20 > #!/bin/sh >=20 > # USER CMD PID FD MOUNT INUM MODE SZ|DV R/W N= AME > # jilles zsh 57711 root / 2 drwxr-xr-x 1024 r / >=20 > D=3D"$1" > fstat "$D" | sed -Ene 's#^.* +([[:digit:]]+) +root +/[^ ]* +[[:digit:]]+ = +.......... +[[:digit:]]+ +(r|rw|w) +'"$D"'$#\1#p' >=20 > This would need some |xargs kill or similar. Thanks, I hadn't thought of using fstat. I'll give this a try! Kris --5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByc41Wry0BWjoQKURAlPRAKDB6aIu/OeB5oOamwOzEkrfH3PCNQCg1zNu MqNbhiwJ6AJw9phmxTMOz3k= =kc2j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5QAgd0e35j3NYeGe-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 21:39:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7CC16A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:39:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.vicor-nb.com (bigwoop.vicor-nb.com [208.206.78.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EBC43D31 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:39:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (julian.vicor-nb.com [208.206.78.97]) by mail.vicor-nb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE4E7A425; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:39:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41C9E9AA.30003@elischer.org> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:39:54 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030516 X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp References: <8611.1103738014@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <8611.1103738014@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: no more in device drivers. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:39:54 -0000 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >Unless a device driver does something very magic, there should not >be any reason to include anymore. > The usb files did that to be sourcecode compatible with NetBSD I'm sure we can live with 2 lines of diff more however.. > > > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 23:10:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C446816A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A5043D54 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:10:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 04B1385605; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:40:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:40:12 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Peter Edwards Message-ID: <20041222231012.GB53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> <20041222103844.GI801@straylight.m.ringlet.net> <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mjeOt6n4R71vn6wN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: Peter Jeremy cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:10:25 -0000 --mjeOt6n4R71vn6wN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 22 December 2004 at 13:00:50 +0000, Peter Edwards wrote: >> The Single Unix Specification goes to great pains to repeat over and >> over again that the error codes are 'symbolic constants', which IMHO >> may be taken to mean either a #define'd macro or an enum value. >> I, too, went to check with more than half a hunch that it would mandate >> that the error codes be macros, but it turned out it doesn't :) > > But "errno" itself is "int", so even if the constants for the > individual errno values were defined by an enumeration, that type > information would be lost to the debugger when looking at errno > itself, defeating the original benefit of having the symbolic names > available in the debugger. As an alternative to Peter Jeremy's > suggestion of using a GDB macro, you could, of course, define a type > as: > typedef enum { > err_EPERM = EPERM, > err_ENOENT = ENOENT, > /* .... */ > } errno_t Yes, that's what I ended up doing (for some definition of "err_"). It still doesn't solve the more general issue of using enums instead of #defines, but I don't suppose we will solve that one any time soon. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --mjeOt6n4R71vn6wN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByf7UIubykFB6QiMRAqR6AKCFEUPE0IPTIKYzAF6t7c1NqeDMeQCfYkbc 3HJRX0PCoLBk5PAWbbjQYBs= =0A15 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mjeOt6n4R71vn6wN-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 23:11:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B1716A4CE; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:11:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F49E43D2F; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:11:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4905285607; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:41:08 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:41:08 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20041222231108.GC53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> <20041222.114835.65987539.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HsYKTmaHn9HHfM39" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222.114835.65987539.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: scottl@FreeBSD.org cc: peadar.edwards@gmail.com cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:11:21 -0000 --HsYKTmaHn9HHfM39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 22 December 2004 at 11:48:35 -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> > Scott Long writes: >> M. Warner Losh wrote: >>> In order to gain the benefits of the enums, errno would need to be an >>> enum errno_t or some such. This breaks C++ code that sets errno = 0, >>> since you can't assign integers to errno values. >>> >>> So even if you retained EBOGUS or whatever, this wouldn't work with >>> C++. errno has to be an int to work there. >> >> I think you might have missed that nothing was actually being declared >> with the errno_t type, but rather the type was used as a cast for gdb. >> It's a neat trick, but still a little cumbersome unless gdb was taught >> about it or given some clever macros. > > Then why bother... Is typing something complex to gdb really better > than "grep $number /usr/include/sys/errno.h"? No, but getting it automatically is. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --HsYKTmaHn9HHfM39 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByf8MIubykFB6QiMRArX7AJ47MlwbqTE9WYNWxTSwQLzc7eiBdgCfROcS s60DULRWescSNza2/ljds9c= =Ys2b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HsYKTmaHn9HHfM39-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 22 23:13:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BA616A4CE for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212EC43D53 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:13:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 276D985605; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:43:01 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:43:01 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20041222231301.GD53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/T5/D81aE6hAEKcd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 23:13:04 -0000 --/T5/D81aE6hAEKcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday, 22 December 2004 at 18:45:16 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > There is a heck of a difference between getting: > > fdisk: permission denied > > And > > fdisk: permission denied (partitions overlap) I did this in the original Vinum. "Error" returns from the Vinum ioctls returned a message with errno set to 0. The message included an error indicator and an optional text message. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --/T5/D81aE6hAEKcd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByf99IubykFB6QiMRAvLmAJ9tE4ZLgUHP1fST0376ZLkTdF2EWACeIPFg 9Tap+sECxXl7YEQgXaBxKf4= =gjso -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/T5/D81aE6hAEKcd-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 00:22:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A1B16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:22:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17DE043D53 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:22:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peadar.edwards@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so48263wra for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:22:41 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=d/nuwHlRil23Kv0xJJ/bYCV5UJwTygcM/BwZcDbN9N3x401Zqo5GioYeVMGm6DhJhwuNW6eAg+iFf2IxHW8kj1FPHeeogaQLt5tF4yBzOZoGBmALnPUXNXk6cbcb9/hnp1XccQYA3ofnVQkxrPEGl8ENN4vRYASPhtQJxcRq8dc= Received: by 10.54.45.8 with SMTP id s8mr306891wrs; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:22:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.57.76 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 16:22:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34cb7c84041222162210f14238@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:22:41 +0000 From: Peter Edwards To: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20041222.115155.71839775.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <34cb7c8404122205002bd7de18@mail.gmail.com> <20041222.113411.76074974.imp@bsdimp.com> <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> <20041222.115155.71839775.imp@bsdimp.com> cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: scottl@freebsd.org cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Peter Edwards List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:22:42 -0000 > > Or better yet, just use the array of error values already compiled > into the programs that strerror() formats for you (you don't need to > use strerror, just sys_errlist[]). I'd dispute the "better yet": If used in code, "errno_t" is useful in its own right. Even beyond the type safety, if used in a structure > (gdb) print *structptr Will print errno_t members properly, without requiring hints that fields represent errno values, etc. (ie, it's a hint to the debugger that something of type errno_t conveys more specific information than a value between INT_MIN and INT_MAX.) Although textual descriptions are better than the errno names to users, "err_EBADF" means much more than "9" in a debug output to the programmer running the debugger. Sorry for splitting hairs. (But the bikeshed should definitely be blue) -- Peadar. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 04:34:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC00E16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:34:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.village.org [168.103.84.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010D643D3F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:34:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBN4VdVf029185; Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:31:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:31:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20041222.213147.93971875.imp@bsdimp.com> To: peadar.edwards@gmail.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <34cb7c84041222162210f14238@mail.gmail.com> References: <41C9C015.7050706@freebsd.org> <20041222.115155.71839775.imp@bsdimp.com> <34cb7c84041222162210f14238@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: grog@freebsd.org cc: PeterJeremy@optushome.com.au cc: scottl@freebsd.org cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:34:06 -0000 In message: <34cb7c84041222162210f14238@mail.gmail.com> Peter Edwards writes: : > : > Or better yet, just use the array of error values already compiled : > into the programs that strerror() formats for you (you don't need to : > use strerror, just sys_errlist[]). : : I'd dispute the "better yet": If used in code, "errno_t" is useful in : its own right. Even beyond the type safety, if used in a structure You don't get type safety from C enums. They are, at best, a lexically different #define. In C++ you have lots of other rules. : > (gdb) print *structptr : : Will print errno_t members properly, without requiring hints that : fields represent errno values, etc. (ie, it's a hint to the debugger : that something of type errno_t conveys more specific information than : a value between INT_MIN and INT_MAX.) : Although textual descriptions are better than the errno names to : users, "err_EBADF" means much more than "9" in a debug output to the : programmer running the debugger. : : Sorry for splitting hairs. (But the bikeshed should definitely be blue) I guess that's incompatible with what was said earlier in the thread. you'd have to assign the errno_t to the integer errno or the integer errno to an errno_t. That just doesn't work in C++. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:27:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8025C16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ninja.terrabionic.com (ninja.terrabionic.com [213.187.181.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E671643D48; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johann@terrabionic.com) Received: by ninja.terrabionic.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8D7633C; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 From: jsha To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD ninja.terrabionic.com 5.3-STABLE i386 X-Location: Bergen, Norway, Europe Subject: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:27:36 -0000 --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFByqujeF7Rq67IV2wRAlKUAKCl2+j0nGxHSCaA6vVuaKHmWS329ACg38yh cyKa7Mugay7SWji/RX22aIk= =zolu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:54:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74EF16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C360343D58 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bdaniel7@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z35so116513rne for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MvORpV7z2gniQZSx2P/HR7rVn2vOxqzlh6fiuDbpk/6hF1ovLVKoEyyDub83qcyWSlMPW8YgTWJkvOdiQAXz9mou6WRFG/eeSCpxcxbCiHfAuktHtMlwUrrHVZya8OScqLH3iPUEZRZIXwhmCQgn4IrLcgVmLChjcaplESkaPfs= Received: by 10.39.3.42 with SMTP id f42mr476819rni; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.104.1 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:54:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:54:31 +0200 From: Daniel Blendea To: jsha In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Daniel Blendea List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:54:33 -0000 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. thank you for reading and please excuse my excited tone, Daniel On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100, jsha wrote: > > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. > > > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 11:59:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E472C16A4D4 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9358743D58 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon.burke@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 67so963wri for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=E8vkXHnY0hs/WazyQ2cIR8TY1tCZJtsplHgeHiTxfF3nndXJyEPboxs6DEnpQKw3+a/datvLGKAn5zA0oKzEY6zdx8lVLHfe6H11R44xnhBBVxDUqD7zFGrYn6GHK2YBaiRaiYz6N5Trgk3hW9hcoz6DAJGKUIFyALJBxYEtYx4= Received: by 10.54.6.55 with SMTP id 55mr5892wrf; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.11.57 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2d7d2dd2041223035969e056d8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:29 +0000 From: Simon Burke In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Simon Burke List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:59:33 -0000 > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I would like to know how you assume that he is a representation of evil, ok he looks like a little devil char but there is more than one definition of a devil and besides he looks kind of cute. So the logo/mascot has been around a while but that doesnt warrant change. If it does then most companies in the world need to update their logos too. Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD would no longer be such a great operating system. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Granted the installer is not the best installer around, but the main point is that it does the job and it is pretty easy to follow in my opinion anyway. Also there are a couple of projects to my knowledge that are aiming to improve it. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) -- Theres no place like ::1 Thanks, SimonB From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 12:43:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF0416A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailserv1.neuroflux.com (ns2.neuroflux.com [204.228.228.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADF743D4C for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: (qmail 5729 invoked by uid 89); 23 Dec 2004 12:40:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www2.neuroflux.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 12:40:58 -0000 Received: from 63.231.157.250 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ryans@gamersimpact.com); by www2.neuroflux.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <49467.63.231.157.250.1103805658.squirrel@63.231.157.250> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 05:40:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Ryan Sommers" To: "jsha" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:43:23 -0000 Going to reply to the whole thread so far. jsha said: > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years Although I don't like the tone of the other replies, I agree with their sentiment, beasty is as much a part of FreeBSD as the family dog is a part of the family. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. I don't think the website is all that ugly, personally, however, a new design isn't out of the question. So long as content and navigation is somewhat preserved. I've found certain things difficult to find again when I remember that I saw them somewhere, and I've been using FreeBSD for 7 years now. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. This is on many people's minds, including my own. Now that the holidays are upon us I'm going to try and spend a little of my free time working on putting my ideas into code. Or, I might look again at FreeBSDIE and bsdinstaller and seeing what it would take to bring them into the tree. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behing a business card. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > If you feel it needs to be done, and you would like to work on it, more power to you! Come up with a concept design and submit it for review. I think there are definite improvments to be made in the eyes of the new-comer. I believe there is a www@ team is there not? Might try posting to that list and see what you come up with. FreeBSD survives off people spending time where they see fit. If web-dev and graphic arts is your thing and you want to contribute, I for one will give you the time to submit my opinion of your work. Daniel Blendea said: > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > the logo would change; > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. > > 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a > fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think > about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on > software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is > related to FreeBSD > > 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get > to install it eyes- closed.. This is hardly the way to represent and argument. There is no need to be profane at someone for expressing their ideas to aid the project. It should be encouraged. Others, please don't feed the troll. Simon Burke said: > Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent > all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD > would no longer be such a great operating system. The code developers don't have to spend time on web-dev and graphics. But if there is a willing body that might not be able to work on the code but has talent in the user-interface, web-development, and graphic arts field, why not let them give their time to the project in a manner that fits their skills? Please don't bash or make light of those that contribute things other than code. Rock on doc@ team. Code or not you've done a great job. It takes many skillsets to develop and maintain a tool such as FreeBSD code is just one of them. -- Ryan Sommers ryans@gamersimpact.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 13:26:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD34316A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk (freebsd.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.249.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E62D43D2F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@mx1.originative.co.uk) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C040615596; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 85128-03; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BDCEE15639; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:03 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:03 +0000 From: Paul Richards To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20041223132603.GB786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8412.1103737516@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:26:19 -0000 On Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 06:45:16PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com>, "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" > writes: > > >Has anybody thought about replacing #defines with enums in header > >files? It would make debugging a whole lot easier. Foe example, I'm > >currently looking at a debug printout which contains: > > I agree with others who have shot this down: compatibility would > not allow us to do something like that. > > But that is not to say that the error reporting mechanism could not > be improved in other ways. > > One of my pet peeves is that comples system calls have no way to > convey additional information about why the return a given > return value like EPERM. > > I would almost advocate adding a char[X] to each thread and a > system call which could retrieve it. Complex system calls like > mount/nmount, ioctl and similar could then stick an explanation > into that string which strerror(3) or err(3) and similar functions > could pull out and give the user. > > There is a heck of a difference between getting: > > fdisk: permission denied > > And > > fdisk: permission denied (partitions overlap) For all projects I've worked on in recent years the first thing I've done is implement an error reporting stack, which basically works in a similar way to exceptions in C++/Java i.e., the error percolates up from where it occurs to a point where something decides to handle it. The error object itself varies from project to project but always includes a message. At whatever point in the stack where something handles the error you can then get a full report as to what each layer in the stack did. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 13:34:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBB216A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk (freebsd.gotadsl.co.uk [81.6.249.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C132543D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@mx1.originative.co.uk) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981CE15596; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mx1.originative.co.uk ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 85128-04; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: by mx1.originative.co.uk (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B5DE015639; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:40 +0000 From: Paul Richards To: Daniel Blendea Message-ID: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:34:54 -0000 On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 01:54:31PM +0200, Daniel Blendea wrote: > 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if > the logo would change; > Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. Ignoring the whole beastie thing, because we've just done that whole issue, I think someone with skills other than coding taking an interest in our public image would be a good thing. >From a business perspective we look amateurish. Lots of people here don't seem to care about the outside world which reinforces the opinion that we've become a hobby OS project now. If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we need to have the right image. Paul. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:26:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B59916A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B71043D1F; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBNGUErP089435; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:30:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41CAF174.4020309@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:25:24 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.0 required=3.8 tests=SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on pooker.samsco.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:26:38 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. > > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. > > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? > > Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) > > Sincerely, > Johann Manaf Tepstad > -- > j. > If you have the time, desire, and talent to address these issues, I'd love to see the results. I'd caution about being inflamatory in your first statement, though. The logo was definitely not done by a 10 yr old with PSPro, and it has emotional significance to many people. I'd definitely like to see what your ideas are for a replacement. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:28:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5D316A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from athena.softcardsystems.com (mail.softcardsystems.com [12.34.136.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C8C43D53; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sah@softcardsystems.com) Received: from athena (athena [12.34.136.114])iBNHN5fX030259; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:23:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:23:05 -0500 (EST) From: Sam X-X-Sender: sah@athena To: Paul Richards In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:28:50 -0000 > If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we > need to have the right image. Look ma, a strawman! The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own "image," installer, system config style, etc. More importantly for the "commercial world," though, they offer support and certification. The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large portions of the kernel, but I digress). Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work for the core project you can still make your own distro and release it. Give it a shot! Cheers, Sam From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:37:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CBA16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nic-naa.net (nic-naa.net [216.220.241.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F4843D5A; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNCcWCl004127; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:38:32 GMT (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200412231238.iBNCcWCl004127@nic-naa.net> To: jsha In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100." <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:38:32 +0000 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: brunner@nic-naa.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:37:53 -0000 > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. representations are secondary to function. there are markets for which this relationship is inverted. cost of entry is in the mid-eight-figure range. > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. code is art, and feelings are nice. please fix ebcdic first. unicode too. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. modernity is overrated. > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks dumb. > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. who, other than you, cares? > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. break your own website please. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. break your own loader please. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. if i give you one will you agree to do something useful? > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? most likely. its troll's fate. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:47:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CDC16A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D0F43D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.254.11] (junior-wifi.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBNGpEPF089509; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:51:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <41CAF660.6050000@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:46:24 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040929 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=3.8 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on pooker.samsco.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:47:45 -0000 Sam wrote: >> If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we >> need to have the right image. > > > Look ma, a strawman! > > The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros > solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own > "image," installer, system config style, etc. More importantly > for the "commercial world," though, they offer support and > certification. > > The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, > I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, > then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large > portions of the kernel, but I digress). > > Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work > for the core project you can still make your own distro > and release it. Give it a shot! > > Cheers, > > Sam The distro - vs - core release relationship is one of BSD's greatest strengths and weaknesses. It's a strength because there is no 'distro hell' like there is in linux. When you download FreeBSD, you get the same FreeBSD as everyone else; there is no confusion over how the config files are layed out, no differences in the base utilities, everything compiles the same way, etc. That is a huge benefit. But at the same time, it makes it really hard for people to branch out and experiment in the same way that a linux distro can. FreeSBIE is a good example of this happening and working, but it definitely has hurdles. Variety and competition makes the whole stronger, and at times FreeBSD seems a bit in-bred. To address this, I'm playing with ideas for changing the nature of a FreeBSD 'release' a bit to make it easier for outfits like FreeSBIE to build on top of it. Hopefully I'll have something to show for this in 6.0. Scott From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 16:48:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E7116A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp04.eresmas.com (asmtp04.eresmas.com [62.81.235.144]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D29F43D45; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ea1abz@wanadoo.es) Received: from [192.168.108.59] (helo=mx01.eresmas.com) by asmtp04.eresmas.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ChW8t-0001PO-BR; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:47 +0100 Received: from [80.103.47.197] (helo=[80.103.47.197]) by mx01.eresmas.com with asmtp (Exim 4.41) id 1ChW8l-0006ML-8q; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:46 +0100 Message-ID: <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:48:54 +0100 From: Ramiro Aceves User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20040926) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jsha References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:48:51 -0000 jsha wrote: > Hello. > > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. I am new to FreeBSD, only one month of use or so. I come from Debian GNU/Linux world and only want to say some toughts: > > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. > > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. The WEB is great!, I like WEBs with no images moving around! Debian WEB (www.debian.org) and FreeBSD WEB pages are simliar in aesthetics and I feel confortable. > > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. The instalation program is reasonably good , once you do a couple of installs you can do it without thinking too much. Enjoy FreeBSD. Ramiro. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 17:07:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590D716A4CE; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from orchid.homeunix.org (awl227.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.27.71.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6063243D31; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (blackacidevil.orchid.homeunix.org [192.168.1.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by orchid.homeunix.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNH44ww039913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:07:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org) Message-ID: <41CAFA83.4020300@orchid.homeunix.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:04:03 +0100 From: Karol Kwiatkowski User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ramiro Aceves References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> In-Reply-To: <41CAF6F6.9070208@wanadoo.es> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/639/Wed Dec 22 15:09:50 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on orchid.homeunix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd@orchid.homeunix.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:07:28 -0000 Ramiro Aceves wrote: > jsha wrote: >> 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks >> like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years >> ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very >> disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. > > I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the devil. It's a daemon. BSD Daemon. "Many people equate the word ``daemon'' with the word ``demon,'' implying some kind of Satanic connection between UNIX and the underworld. This is an egregious misunderstanding. ``Daemon'' is actually a much older form of ``demon''; daemons have no particular bias towards good or evil, but rather serve to help define a person's character or personality. The ancient Greeks' concept of a ``personal daemon'' was similar to the modern concept of a ``guardian angel'' --- ``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons." quote from: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html Regards, Karol -- Karol Kwiatkowski From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 18:59:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B48416A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:59:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gate.bitblocks.com (bitblocks.com [209.204.185.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF9E43D3F for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:59:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gate.bitblocks.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBNIwwpc012446; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:58:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Message-Id: <200412231858.iBNIwwpc012446@gate.bitblocks.com> To: jsha In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100." <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:58:58 -0800 From: Bakul Shah cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:59:29 -0000 > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. Go for it! Rather than complain here about various things, create a mailing list for interested people where you can discuss aesthetics etc., make a plan and execute. This would also be a very good exercise for a future in Marketing and PR! And we (FreeBSDers) *need* friends there.... > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? Why do you care? ``Build it and they will come!'' From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 19:39:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48EF16A4CE for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:39:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net (mail1.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CAEA43D53 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:39:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 9936 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 19:39:48 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 23 Dec 2004 19:39:48 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (fqpszc@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBNJddGH051398; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBNJdc5p051397; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:39:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:39:38 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20041223193938.GF19624@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Jeremy , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List References: <20041222010143.GS53357@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041222090855.GO79646@cirb503493.alcatel.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey cc: FreeBSD Architecture Mailing List Subject: Re: Header files with enums instead of defines? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:39:49 -0000 Peter Jeremy wrote this message on Wed, Dec 22, 2004 at 20:08 +1100: > An alternative suggestion for you: Write a gdb macro which takes an > int and prints it as an errno. Something like a shorthand version of: > print (enum { EPERM=1, ENOENT=2, ..., EILSEQ=86})xerrno > should work. > > You would probably write a [insert scripting language of choice] script > to convert into the appropriate gdb macro. If you have a running program context (in userland), just do: print (char *)strerror(errnovalue) -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 23 21:15:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED34F16A4CF for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:15:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.vicor-nb.com (bigwoop.vicor-nb.com [208.206.78.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD20043D46 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:15:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (julian.vicor-nb.com [208.206.78.97]) by mail.vicor-nb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AB17A459; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:15:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41CB358A.2030009@elischer.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:15:54 -0800 From: Julian Elischer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030516 X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bakul Shah References: <200412231858.iBNIwwpc012446@gate.bitblocks.com> In-Reply-To: <200412231858.iBNIwwpc012446@gate.bitblocks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:15:57 -0000 Bakul Shah wrote: >>Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time >>for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. >> >> > >Go for it! Rather than complain here about various things, >create a mailing list for interested people where you can >discuss aesthetics etc., make a plan and execute. This would >also be a very good exercise for a future in Marketing and >PR! And we (FreeBSDers) *need* friends there.... > > > >>How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work >>on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we >>produce the most magnificent result? >> As you start to get prototypes worked out, ask for comment.. Make people feel as if they have a stake in it.. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 04:46:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E1416A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A4643D45; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224044618i9100rg29me>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:27 +0000 Message-ID: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:46:14 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Richards References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:46:28 -0000 >>From a business perspective we look amateurish. > > I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Here are some example sites: http://m0n0.ch/wall/screens/system.png http://www.mozilla.org/ http://www.horde.org/logos/ http://www.xfce.org/ http://www.gnome.org/ http://www.gimp.org/ http://www.php.net/ http://freebsd.kde.org/ http://www.google.com/ http://www.apache.org/ http://www.adobe.com/ http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.sun.com/ http://www.suse.com/ http://www.novell.com/ http://www.ibm.com/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/ http://www.mysql.com/ http://cocoon.apache.org/ http://www.w3.org/ http://www.penguincomputing.com/ FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:01:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C3916A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE68D43D46; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0090260E2; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 44906-06; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C10360CD; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:01:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:02:13 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nikolas Britton References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:01:46 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote: > >>> From a business perspective we look amateurish. >> I have held off thus far... >> > I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an > outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of professionalism, > which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? > I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the > things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on > toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. > 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt > you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black > wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, I hate it. > Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web > font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the > whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs > are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, > UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the "logo" > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading > Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art > school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up > about basic color theory here: > http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever > here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. > 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is > unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie > the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... > I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice > if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it > is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match > the website? Snip - not worth repeating. > FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:40:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9EE16A4CE for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A30343D4C for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (qmail 6709 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 -0000 Received: from gate.funkthat.com (HELO hydrogen.funkthat.com) ([69.17.45.168]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 24 Dec 2004 05:40:05 -0000 Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (kjofyb@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1])iBO5e2GH065965; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iBO5e0MG065948; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:40:00 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:40:06 -0000 Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading > Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 05:58:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED8416A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postit.mail.adnap.net.au (postit.mail.adnap.net.au [203.6.132.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D113E43D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bastill@adam.com.au) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (202-6-154-250.ip.adam.com.au [202.6.154.250]) by postit.mail.adnap.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E551C449; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:28:03 +1030 (CST) From: Brian Astill To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:27:51 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> In-Reply-To: <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412241627.51795.bastill@adam.com.au> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:58:06 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:46 pm, Nikolas Britton wrote: > FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. > _______________________________________________ It also needs people who realise that multiple cross-posting is deprecated. Could this conversation please be moved to -advocacy and ONLY to -advocacy? Thanks. -- Regards, Brian sos-sa.org.au From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 06:09:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D4716A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C15943D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224060933i9100rfpj2e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:34 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:09:29 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:09:36 -0000 Chris wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote: > >> >>>> From a business perspective we look amateurish. >>> >>> > > I have held off thus far... > >>> >> I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an >> outsider the website and "Image" conveys a real lack of >> professionalism, which is not true. > > > No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? hmm?, fuck no I hate penguins (esp Linux ones), there's nothing wrong with chucky > Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as > the NetBSD project took? No, just a better image in the enterprises and data centers of the world. > >> I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the >> things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on >> toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): > > > Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not > offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users > of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users > of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? I guess I did step your toe's and ego, I was only trying to give constructive criticism. > >> 1. The "FreeBSD" logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll >> hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just >> the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect "FreeBSD" part, really, >> I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased >> modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) >> and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of >> your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the >> page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for >> example) > > > You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD > site as to the redoing of the "logo" I DON'T want it "redesigned" (like NetBSD did) just re-done... same logo just better looking, image is everything you know. > >> 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >> with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >> Cascading Style Sheets?) > > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? No, it's a web standard: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ also it would be a good idea to look into XHTML: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ > >> 3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art >> school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read >> up about basic color theory here: >> http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever >> here of Cascading Style Sheets??) > > > Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Yes I can tell, I was trying to offer some helpfull tips > Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I > really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Yes > > Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? I don't like pastels ether, to girly, I like bold and neutral colors. > If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have > been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. I watch the history channel most of the time or the courses offered by the local college on channel 20 , I really think TLC has gone down hill with all the trading spaces type shows, though page is cute. It's just that I've always had a good eye for this type of stuff. > > >> 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is >> unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII >> beastie the default. > > > Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... That is true. > >> I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be >> nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with >> the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the >> installer to match the website? > > > Snip - not worth repeating. > >> FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 06:48:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3262316A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F55A43D1D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041224064759i9100rfo80e>; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <41CBBB9A.5000001@nbritton.org> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 00:47:54 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John-Mark Gurney References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 06:48:02 -0000 John-Mark Gurney wrote: >Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: > > >>2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a >>modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading >>Style Sheets?) >> >> > >you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should >be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to >do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now >it appears)... > > Yes >As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: > > >And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display >the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... >So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. > > > learn something new everyday, thanks for the tip. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 07:20:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939BA16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F374943D2D; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iBO7Kkv63386; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:20:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nikolas Britton" , "Chris" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:20:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41CBB299.4020707@nbritton.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:20:58 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Nikolas Britton > Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:09 PM > To: Chris > > > > Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. > > If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the > enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and > mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other > BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. > I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD community to do a site redesign, see here: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of talking about it? Ted From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 12:28:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E3016A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F53443D41; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from fwd11.aul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1ChoYg-0001VZ-01; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:38 +0100 Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (bKaf0MZdYeQPMQMJB40AhL4GJu8YPhTwvnZAlAp6i7v7NjqgEgsd8H@[217.229.222.40]) by fmrl11.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 1ChoYM-0Wvk8W0; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:18 +0100 Received: from Magellan.Leidinger.net (Magellan.Leidinger.net [192.168.1.1]) iBOCS9tj059543; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:25 +0100 From: Alexander Leidinger To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, jsha Message-ID: <20041224132825.023fc5ee@Magellan.Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.13 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd6.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ID: bKaf0MZdYeQPMQMJB40AhL4GJu8YPhTwvnZAlAp6i7v7NjqgEgsd8H@t-dialin.net X-TOI-MSGID: 50e9a8d7-c00a-455f-8a4b-268e48bfb6f7 Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:28:46 -0000 On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 jsha wrote: > I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts > on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes > and users to the rest of the world. You know that you write this a t a time where a lot of people are visiting their family and don't have email access or don't read the mailinglists? At least this is the case for a lot of FreeBSD committers. > Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time > for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. Even if a lot of committers won't/can't answer now: there are people which agree with you (maybe not all, but you know what we say about bikesheds, don't you?). > The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its > modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the > way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it > compared to other open source operating systems. > > 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks We had an discussion a while ago about this. The way I understand the conclusion is: we have a mascot, but no logo (we may use our mascot like other people use a logo ATM). And we want to keep the mascot. We may be interested in a logo, but a logo is a bikeshed topic. Since we're more developers than designers, nobody stepped up to proceed on this topic (at least I don't know about it if someone proceeded further). If you want to put your energy into creating a logo, there will be people which listen to you. > like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years > ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very > disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. This is a little bit harsh. I suggest to stay with facts and suggestions. Keep such rants for your personal pleasure, we don't need them. > 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD > website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its > purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign > could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being > ugly. The doc team is progressing in this direction... at least if I read the content between the lines of commit logs right. I think they try to separate the content from the design at the moment (the prerequisite to use the full power of CSS). I suggest to get in contact with them to not reinvent the wheel. > 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved > by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than > previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Yes. AFAIK the Freesbie project is integrating the bsdinstaller (the installer DragonFly uses) ATM. We will see how this works out and depending on this there may be interest to integrate the installer into FreeBSD. > 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead > available to all that support this project. Even if there are some people which don't think this is needed, I like this idea. In may day to day job I'm working as a consultant, so I know where/how/why this may be beneficial (or not). > How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work > on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we > produce the most magnificent result? We can't guarantee that any of your work will be adopted, but I don't think your work will be ignored (be prepared to get a lot of critique... positive and negative one). Bye, Alexander. -- The best things in life are free, but the expensive ones are still worth a look. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 14:23:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B8816A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kane.otenet.gr (kane.otenet.gr [195.170.0.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E5443D4C; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b238.otenet.gr [212.205.244.246]) iBOENalo011721; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:23:38 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iBOENXPJ001444; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:23:33 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iBOEMkmE001441; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Chris , Nikolas Britton Message-ID: <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:23:42 -0000 On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: >Nikolas Britton wrote: >> 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >> with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >> Cascading Style Sheets?) > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on paper. > >3. The color scheme is not "complementary" anyone who has been to art > >school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up > >about basic color theory here: > >http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever > >here of Cascading Style Sheets??) > > Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the > OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design > has passion blue opposed to blue? The fact that we don't know a lot about art and design is not a good excuse for reacting badly to anyone that says so. Nikolas, there is an effort to redesign the web site, using CSS as much as possible for style & layout, making sure that the entire site has a consistent look and feel. Your comments show that you know a bit about design. If you believe you can help with such an effort, please contact us at and assist the team who works on the web site. > Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re > design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way > too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. > > >4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is > >unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie > >the default. > > Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... ``Who cares?'' is exactly the sort of bad PR that Nikolas is right about. Please avoid inflammatory material, if possible :-/ Nikolas, there is a good reason why the ASCII art logo is not using colors by default. Many people use FreeBSD with a serial console, and sending colors over a serial port connection is a bit silly: annoying an a waste of precious serial connection bandwidth. This is why the loader logo doesn't use fancy colors by default. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 09:46:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB2116A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from male.aldigital.co.uk (male.thebunker.net [213.129.64.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7383643D48; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from gravitas.thebunker.net (gateway.ash.thebunker.net [213.129.64.4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by male.aldigital.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BE69774A; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1])iBO9kMcF004839; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:23 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Message-ID: <41CBE567.9080006@infracaninophile.co.uk> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:15 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman Organization: Infracaninophile User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041213) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:07:31 +0000 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 09:46:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, > way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is > cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD > community to do a site redesign, see here: > > http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css > > Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the > site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of > talking about it? Errr... Not so. Admittedly, this was posted just a few days ago, but people are working on CSS-izing the FreeBSD.org web site: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-doc/2004-December/006616.html Elsewhere on this thread there has been some talk about organizing a design competition to see who can come up with the best concept for the site. Strikes me that a good way to do that would be along the lines of this competition to redesign the W3.org site: http://w3mix.web-graphics.com/entries.php ie. take the existing content and write a style sheet to present it in the best possible way. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 8 Dane Court Manor School Rd PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Tilmanstone Tel: +44 1304 617253 Kent, CT14 0JL UK --------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQcvlbpr7OpndfbmCAQIGwQQAtPJ5gidYIVlDXxGckJDixrgf95m+pR0C NGU4h0l+Bx7BVbVvy19omNjKH7TSFv6XKHgYH1opab2bSsMwl0s14YDcrpSFg9wZ FjEDV4NwCPhxkvpfQsVIA2Fe9JxmxL3hgCSUbP377H5M3vFWezU3Q2trkAB0XKiz Af41EuiatbM= =wLgO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig0E3EE4B1CD80064A663C0D29-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 16:09:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8108C16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:09:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD17B43D2F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:09:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=38963 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Chs0N-00038B-LI; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:09:27 +0100 Received: from cc740438-a.deven1.ov.home.nl ([82.75.136.183]:4159 helo=[192.168.1.42]) by smtp1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Chs0M-0003XW-Ft; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:09:26 +0100 Message-ID: <41CC3F35.7010304@sitetronics.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:09:25 +0100 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Seaman References: <41CBE567.9080006@infracaninophile.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <41CBE567.9080006@infracaninophile.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Please contact support@home.nl for more information X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:55:01 +0000 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: Daniel Blendea cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: jsha cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:09:36 -0000 Matthew Seaman wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, >> way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is >> cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD >> community to do a site redesign, see here: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css >> >> Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the >> site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of >> talking about it? > > > Errr... Not so. Admittedly, this was posted just a few days ago, but > people are working on CSS-izing the FreeBSD.org web site: > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-doc/2004-December/006616.html > > Elsewhere on this thread there has been some talk about organizing a > design competition to see who can come up with the best concept for the > site. Strikes me that a good way to do that would be along the lines of > this competition to redesign the W3.org site: > > http://w3mix.web-graphics.com/entries.php > > ie. take the existing content and write a style sheet to present it in > the best possible way. > > Cheers, > > Matthew I'm going to be drawing up the rules for the competition soon. I think the best way to do it would indeed be to just create an HTML 4.01 Strict-compliant page and ask people to do CSS for it -- as might be done for csszengarden.com. Kind regards, Devon H. O'Dell From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 22:47:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD6516A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF39D43D41; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 9EB6D530C; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:47:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id AEDF75308; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 40557B874; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:20 +0100 (CET) To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:46:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> (Giorgos Keramidas's message of "Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:22:46 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:47:04 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas writes: > On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: > > Nikolas Britton wrote: > > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site > > > with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of > > > Cascading Style Sheets?) > > CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much > better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on > paper. Times New Roman was designed for a single purpose: to remain readable even when smudged or printed on low-quality paper. It does not really look good on any medium, but it's less bad than most other fonts on newsprint. Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Responding to Nikolas: Arial and Verdana are Windows fonts which is not necessarily installed on www.freebsd.org's readers' machines (though it is available in ports). Conversely, Helvetica is generally not available in Windows. CSS defines 'sans-serif' as a generic alias for whichever sans-serif font looks best on each particular platform (it maps to Arial in Windows, and Helvetica or similar in X); likewise, it defines 'serif' as a generic alias for serif fonts (it maps to Times New Roman in Windows, and a variety of Roman fonts in X depending on the browser and on what fonts are available). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 22:52:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6046E16A4CE; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0026143D3F; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E8A60ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53695-07; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA2A60E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:52:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:20 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 22:52:45 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > >>On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris wrote: >> >>>Nikolas Britton wrote: >>> >>>>2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site >>>>with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of >>>>Cascading Style Sheets?) >>> >>>CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? > Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You > apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this > discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. -- Best regards, Chris You can't expect to hit the jackpot if you don't put a few nickles in the machine. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 24 23:09:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319FF16A4D0; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3BD43D46; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id C59B5530C; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:09:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 97A485308; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:45 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 08838B874; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:44 +0100 (CET) To: Chris References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:08:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> (racerx@makeworld.com's message of "Fri, 24 Dec 2004 16:53:20 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 23:09:18 -0000 Chris writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You > > apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this > > discussion. > Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was > then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my > bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. > One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to > drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 00:25:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6D616A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CEB43D58; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1Chzk7-000C1I-RH; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0000 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:11 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041225002511.GC7445@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Nikolas Britton , Paul Richards , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Blendea , freebsd-www@freebsd.org, jsha , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sHrvAb52M6C8blB9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041224054000.GL19624@funkthat.com> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 00:25:28 -0000 --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 09:40:00PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: [ Choosing a random(ish) post to reply to - I am on holiday right now and I will not pretend to have read the whole thread ] > > 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with = a=20 > > modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascadin= g=20 > > Style Sheets?) >=20 > you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should > be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to > do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now > it appears)... >=20 > As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: > I just committed that before I left for holidays; it is only a first step towards CSS'ing the site, and once the conversion to CSS is complete then it should be simple to have an a "best stylesheet" competition or similar (something along those lines was discussed on doc@ a couple of weeks ago). Matt Seaman posted a link to a crappy "here is what CSS can do" mockup that I posted to doc@ just before the commit mentioned above - it's at http://shrike.submonkey.net/~ceri/data2/index.html (be sure to let all the images load - this is on a slow link - and be aware that it doesn't work properly in IE for reasons that DES mentioned elsewhere). Once the conversion to CSS is complete then I have ideas for a way to offer users a personalised stylesheet (subject to implementation [I do not have a computer with me] and benchmarking [it is likely to be a little slow, though this remains to be seen]), and then you will all whine like bitchen about being asked to accept a cookie. Simon@ also has a parallel project running to redesign the site on a more fundamental which is showing promise; my main focus at present is to migrate all style related bits into stylesheets, at which point it will be easy to mess around with colour/font/layout. At present, it is not. So yes, to whoever asked the question, we have heard of CSS and we have not only been using it (minimally) for over three years, but there is real activity in improving what we do have already. > And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display > the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... > So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. Stimmt. Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBzLNnocfcwTS3JF8RAmkHAKDIfGR6TJaNi+IQKLqo+N3plg6LaQCcDGW+ +gHjlNh7VE624g9IzAxaEQs= =gaup -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 01:25:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1856E16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47FF43D2F; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7886E60ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54454-04; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA12060E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:25:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CCC1B7.4090008@makeworld.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:26:15 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:25:45 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Chris writes: > >>Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> >>>Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You >>>apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this >>>discussion. >> >>Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was >>then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my >>bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. > > > CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera > Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors > and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding > Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render > poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not > at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. > > >>One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>drive the car. > > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > DES Technically - I didn't criticize. Allow me to post verbatim; "CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing?" Doesn't look like it to me - looks more like a query or two. But that's just me tho - perhaps you read something else? Perhaps too much eggnog? Perhaps not enough? -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 01:44:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE08A16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:44:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [198.92.228.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7F843D49; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:44:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0C960ED; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:44:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54464-06; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:44:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.92.228.34] (racerx.makeworld.com [198.92.228.34]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF19860E4; Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:44:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <41CCC618.9050002@makeworld.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 19:44:56 -0600 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041218) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD - Questions References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <89b41e4704122303546aaa8d83@mail.gmail.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> <41CCC1B7.4090008@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <41CCC1B7.4090008@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.2.0 (20041102) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: Nikolas Britton cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 01:44:23 -0000 Chris wrote: > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > >> Chris writes: >> >>> Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >>> >>>> Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You >>>> apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this >>>> discussion. >>> >>> >>> Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was >>> then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my >>> bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. >> >> >> >> CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera >> Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors >> and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding >> Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render >> poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not >> at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. >> >> >>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>> drive the car. >> >> >> >> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. >> >> DES > > > Technically - I didn't criticize. Allow me to post verbatim; > > "CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing?" > > Doesn't look like it to me - looks more like a query or two. > But that's just me tho - perhaps you read something else? > > Perhaps too much eggnog? Perhaps not enough? > Allow me to end this with this thought, if there is any doubt that what I asked was indeed a question (opposed to a statement of fact as DES seems to say ("Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts")) Here is a quote from Dictionary.com on Question - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=question 1. An expression of inquiry that invites or calls for a reply. 2. An interrogative sentence, phrase, or gesture. In addition, that little thing at the then of the line (?) also defines it as the above mentioned. -- Best regards, Chris From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 09:33:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6926C16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (fia148-72.dsl.hccnet.nl [62.251.72.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAA843D45; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin@kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl) Received: from localhost (colin@localhost) by kenmore.kozy-kabin.nl (8.11.6p2/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iBP77M600426; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:07:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:07:21 +0100 From: "Colin J. Raven" To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Chris cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: Nikolas Britton cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:33:20 -0000 On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav launched this into the bitstream: > Chris writes: > >> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >> drive the car. > > One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently > claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of=20 the engine. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 25 14:46:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4851C16A4CE; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91.asp.att.net [63.240.76.165]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99BD043D46; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd@nbritton.org) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (12-223-129-46.client.insightbb.com[12.223.129.46]) by sccimhc91.asp.att.net (sccimhc91) with ESMTP id <20041225144626i9100rfuvme>; Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: <41CD7D41.4070206@nbritton.org> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 08:46:25 -0600 From: Nikolas Britton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041219) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Colin J. Raven" References: <20041223112731.GA32750@ninja.terrabionic.com> <20041223133440.GC786@myrddin.originative.co.uk> <41CB9F16.1010405@nbritton.org> <41CBA2D5.4070700@makeworld.com> <20041224142246.GB779@gothmog.gr> <41CC9DE0.6010500@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-www@freebsd.org cc: Giorgos Keramidas cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 14:46:34 -0000 Colin J. Raven wrote: > On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: > >> Chris writes: >> >>> One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to >>> drive the car. >> >> >> One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently >> claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. > > > One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of > the engine. One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. Merry Christmas, Nikolas