From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 08:51:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6EF16A4D4 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97EA643D53 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:50:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE0A35756; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:50:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <404369E3.2060102@energyhq.es.eu.org> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:50:43 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20040217 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM/virii apparently from freeBSD addresses. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:51:06 -0000 Moving to chat: Julian Elischer wrote: > Somewhere out there there is a ?Virus?/?Hacker?/?Spammer? > getting really annoying.. It's been quite common for some time for worms/viruses du jour to fake from/to. Not that it's not annoying. Two meassures that IMHO could help a bit could be: a) Most people started gpg-signing e-mail by default. (Some FreeBSD committers already do that) b) FreeBSD.org could publish spf records like some people are already doing (.e.g. grog@ does and some others) c) For those running pf, block on $ext_if from any os "Windows" to $ext_ip port = 25 ;-) Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 1 10:15:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A350916A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F4C43D1F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040301181527.EZDA29530.priv-edtnes03-hme0.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:15:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:20:18 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040301102018.397d6095.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <404369E3.2060102@energyhq.es.eu.org> References: <404369E3.2060102@energyhq.es.eu.org> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SPAM/virii apparently from freeBSD addresses. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:15:28 -0000 On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:50:43 +0100 Miguel Mendez wrote: > Moving to chat: > > Julian Elischer wrote: > > Somewhere out there there is a ?Virus?/?Hacker?/?Spammer? > > getting really annoying.. > > It's been quite common for some time for worms/viruses du jour to fake > from/to. Not that it's not annoying. Two meassures that IMHO could > help a bit could be: > > a) Most people started gpg-signing e-mail by default. (Some FreeBSD > committers already do that) > > b) FreeBSD.org could publish spf records like some people are already > doing (.e.g. grog@ does and some others) > > c) For those running pf, block on $ext_if from any os "Windows" to > $ext_ip port = 25 ;-) Surely another (small) thing that could be done would be to make the mailing lists not accept mail from each other. e.g. recently I've seen messages of the form "from: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org to: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org". > Cheers, > -- > Miguel Mendez > http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org > PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 07:25:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646BA16A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.acecape.com (mail1.acecape.com [66.114.74.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F67043D1D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by mail1.acecape.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i23FPNs4030902 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:25:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:31:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040303103008.X93665@zoraida.natserv.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Virus? (was Re: Notify about your e-mail account utilization.) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 15:25:24 -0000 On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 staff@freebsd.org wrote: > Hello user of Freebsd.org e-mail server, > > We warn you about some attacks on your e-mail account. Your computer may > contain viruses, in order to keep your computer and e-mail account safe, > please, follow the instructions. > > For further details see the attach. > Sincerely, > The Freebsd.org team http://www.freebsd.org Is this for real? Or just a virus masked as a note from the FreeBSD team? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 07:31:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCF316A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238B243D1F for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:31:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F6E3D31; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:31:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:31:43 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: dan@xeon.unixathome.org To: Francisco Reyes In-Reply-To: <20040303103008.X93665@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: <20040303103115.S12487@xeon.unixathome.org> References: <20040303103008.X93665@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Virus? (was Re: Notify about your e-mail account utilization.) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 15:31:44 -0000 On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 staff@freebsd.org wrote: > > > Hello user of Freebsd.org e-mail server, > > > > We warn you about some attacks on your e-mail account. Your computer may > > contain viruses, in order to keep your computer and e-mail account safe, > > please, follow the instructions. > > > > For further details see the attach. > > Sincerely, > > The Freebsd.org team http://www.freebsd.org It is not real. I got two similar emails today but from my own domains. -- Dan Langille - BSDCan: http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Mar 3 08:47:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317F416A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0396043D2D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:47:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from bunrab.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i23GlffF074619; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david@bunrab.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by bunrab.catwhisker.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i23Glfrd074618; Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from david) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:47:41 -0800 (PST) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <200403031647.i23Glfrd074618@bunrab.catwhisker.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, lists@natserv.com In-Reply-To: <20040303103008.X93665@zoraida.natserv.net> Subject: Re: Virus? (was Re: Notify about your e-mail account utilization.) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:47:42 -0000 >Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:31:47 +0000 (GMT) >From: Francisco Reyes >To: FreeBSD Chat List >Subject: Virus? (was Re: Notify about your e-mail account utilization.) >Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org I suppose that to the extent this is appropriate for any FreeBSD mailing list, -chat@ would be it.... :-{ >On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 staff@freebsd.org wrote: >> Hello user of Freebsd.org e-mail server, >Is this for real? >Or just a virus masked as a note from the FreeBSD team? A salient bit of evidence for the latter (which I admit that not all are privy to, so I'll share it): hub(4.9-S)[1] grep -i '^staff:' /etc/aliases hub(4.9-S)[2] I.e., there is no valid "staff@freebsd.org" email address. And please direct queries about mail @FreeBSD.org to postmaster@freebsd.org or (failing that -- I do get behind sometimes) admin@freebsd.org. Please do not send to both -- I'm on both lists, and duplicate mail is not high on my list of "must-have" items. And please use discretion. I'd rather have my mailbox cluttered than have the lists cluttered, but I do have limits as well.... :-} Peace, david (current hat: postmaster@freebsd.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Mar 4 04:40:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C9F16A4CE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (mx.tele-kom.ru [213.80.148.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D0ED643D31 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 86141 invoked by uid 555); 4 Mar 2004 15:40:34 +0300 Received: from hal.localdomain (213.80.149.144) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1078404034-86107 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, Mar 4 15:40:34 2004 +0300 (MSK) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:38:27 +0300 From: Sergey 'DoubleF' Zaharchenko To: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040304153827.49bb97f5@Hal.localdomain> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="Signature=_Thu__4_Mar_2004_15_38_27_+0300_wbeqX/UqjE5abSNk" Subject: OCR under FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 12:40:38 -0000 --Signature=_Thu__4_Mar_2004_15_38_27_+0300_wbeqX/UqjE5abSNk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello chat@, Something drove me to the evil conclusion that it's impossible to write an off-topic for this list:). So, which OCR do you use, when you need one? I've tried the ones in the ports (gocr, clara, ocrad), but they didn't seem to do the thing for me (the first, but not only, problem being lack of recognition of russian chars). Does anyone else besides me feel a need for that? -- DoubleF When you make your mark in the world, watch out for guys with erasers. -- The Wall Street Journal --Signature=_Thu__4_Mar_2004_15_38_27_+0300_wbeqX/UqjE5abSNk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFARyNSwo7hT/9lVdwRAkXVAJ43tIf8KQGr7UqciBx6OyYjGhH7iwCbB6Ao nY5diqjp21MgKgyqodXmVas= =B1Ok -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Thu__4_Mar_2004_15_38_27_+0300_wbeqX/UqjE5abSNk-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 05:01:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BC116A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from beniaminus.red.cert.org (beniaminus.red.cert.org [192.88.209.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139AB43D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 05:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nobody@cert.org) Received: from villemus.indigo.cert.org (villemus.indigo.cert.org [10.60.10.5])i25D1O8c012734 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:01:24 -0500 Received: from villemus.indigo.cert.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i25D1OGQ032100 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:01:24 -0500 Received: (from mail@localhost)i25D1Ojj032098; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:01:24 -0500 Message-Id: <200403051301.i25D1Ojj032098@villemus.indigo.cert.org> From: "CERT(R) Coordination Center" Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 08:01:23 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org X-Cert-Autoreply: <200403051301.i25D1I8c012727@beniaminus.red.cert.org> Precedence: bulk References: <200403051301.i25D1I8c012727@beniaminus.red.cert.org> In-Reply-To: <200403051301.i25D1I8c012727@beniaminus.red.cert.org> on Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:59:29 -0300 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.37 Subject: Re: Here X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Reply-To: "CERT\(R\) Coordination Center" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:01:26 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- *************************************************************************** [NOTE -- THIS IS AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE] Thank you for contacting the CERT(R) Coordination Center. We appreciate your contacting us and consider your communications with us to be very important. Because we focus our response efforts to have the greatest impact on the Internet community, we may be unable to provide you with a personal response to your message. Please review the pointers contained in this message for information which may be of immediate use to you. Section A - CERT/CC Current Activity Section B - Incident Reporting Information Section C - Vulnerability Reporting Information If you need additional information from the CERT/CC, we encourage you to begin by looking at our list of CERT/CC Frequently Asked Questions: http://www.cert.org/faq/cert_faq.html ====================================================================== Section A - CERT/CC Current Activity The CERT/CC Current Activity web page provides a summary list of the most frequent types of incident and vulnerability activity currently being reported to the CERT/CC. Please refer to this regularly updated page to obtain immediate assistance in response to frequently reported activity: http://www.cert.org/current/current_activity.html In addition, the latest CERT/CC documents can be found at: * CERT Advisories - http://www.cert.org/advisories/ * CERT Incident Notes - http://www.cert.org/incident_notes/ * CERT Vulnerability Notes - http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/ * CERT Summaries - http://www.cert.org/summaries/ * CERT Tech Tips - http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/ * What's New - http://www.cert.org/nav/whatsnew.html * CERT/CC Web Site - http://www.cert.org/ For pointers to information about computer viruses and hoaxes, please see: * http://www.cert.org/other_sources/viruses.html ====================================================================== Section B - Incident Reporting Information We appreciate receiving incident reports because it helps us to gain a better understanding of ongoing intruder activities and attack profiles. From the information we receive, we are able to identify and address critical security issues within the Internet community. Because we prioritize our response efforts to have the greatest impact on the Internet community, we are not be able to provide everyone with a personal response. For general information about reporting incidents to the CERT/CC, please see our Incident Reporting Guidelines at: http://www.cert.org/tech_tips/incident_reporting.html To report incidents to the CERT/CC, please send information about the incident in plain text format to cert@cert.org. You may wish to use our Incident Reporting Form, located at: http://www.cert.org/reporting/incident_form.txt The CERT/CC considers the following types of incidents to be emergencies: * possible life-threatening activity * attacks on the Internet infrastructure, such as: - root name servers - domain name servers - major archive sites - network access points (NAPs) * widespread automated attacks against Internet sites * new types of attacks or new vulnerabilities If you are reporting such an emergency outside our operational hours - business days between 08:00-17:00 EST/EDT (GMT-5/GMT-4) and require immediate assistance, then please call the CERT hotline: +1 412 268 7090 If you believe the intruder activity is a threat to people's lives or to the Internet infrastructure, please contact us immediately. ====================================================================== Section C - Vulnerability Reporting Information If you would like to report a new type of vulnerability or tool being used by the intruder community, we would be interested in any details that you may have. If you are able, please include any or all of source code, log files of execution, and descriptions of operating dependencies. Please feel free to submit these details in ASCII format files (where possible) of your own design, or if you prefer to use a form, please see the file: http://www.cert.org/reporting/vulnerability_form.txt Please also encrypt the report using PGP if you are able to do so. Instructions are given at the top of the reporting form. Our vulnerability disclosure policy is available at http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/html/disclosure ====================================================================== CERT(R) Coordination Center Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA USA 15213-3890 Internet e-mail: cert@cert.org (monitored during business hours) Telephone: +1-412-268-7090 24-hour hotline CERT Coordination Center personnel answer business days 08:00-17:00 EST/EDT (GMT-5)/(GMT-4), on call for emergencies during other hours. Fax: +1-412-268-6989 CERT and CERT Coordination Center are registered in U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQCVAwUBP410C5Z2NNT/dVAVAQHxVQQAgZrBHjCmyuwvSgbUIcGvu7UlYnRUKhQQ IyOBZ0ySZlV9jD1AdjnCuw7cCg93fqxf1KhxJ6jmpaobNk4TQqDRM/jl6OgE1Rn+ iE/chU8mZicn4jIr7ZoQYko/aXwDB//pFnqDJLhnzwLXs1KgG/zupu0eo0YTgNtm oEzpKJcGQik= =UBYB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 07:23:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E195916A4CF; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A91743D39; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (neutrino.centtech.com [10.177.171.220]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i25FNfE8001455; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:23:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <40489B55.1060407@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 09:23:01 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040205 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200403041513.00003.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:23:43 -0000 Narvi wrote: [..snip snip snippety snip..] >>I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed assembly >>language programs. >> > > > and how many millions of lines of that have you written and maintained? > Are you sure it would not be faster if it was re-written in C and compiled > ? I started this thread for more as a list of features FreeBSD needs in order to gain additional user base - I think it has successfully dribbled into -chat worthy commentary, so let's move it off advocacy please? Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Sr. Systems Administrator Centaur Technology Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 09:52:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525E016A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A0343D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:52:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.166] helo=localhost) by tx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzJUc-0006sI-Me for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:52:14 +0000 Received: from rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.2.165]) by localhost (scan3.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 26070-08 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:52:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx3.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzJUb-0006sC-CU for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:52:13 +0000 Received: (qmail 16072 invoked by uid 1004); 5 Mar 2004 17:52:13 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.67. sweep: 2.18/3.79. Clear:RC:1(163.1.161.131):. Processed in 0.025241 secs); 05 Mar 2004 17:52:13 -0000 Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 5 Mar 2004 17:52:13 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040305174245.085fe6c0@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:51:47 +0000 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Colin Percival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Anyone here in appleseed.apple.com? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 17:52:15 -0000 Is anyone here part of Apple's "appleseed" program? I'm seeing a stream of visitors coming to my BSDiff (binary diff tool used in FreeBSD Update; generates security update patches five times smaller than any free alternatives) page from discuss.appleseed.apple.com, and I wish I knew what was being discussed about BSDiff... Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 10:41:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B643316A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BDB43D1D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 10:41:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25IfMUA033588; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:41:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25IfM8t033585; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:41:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:41:22 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Daniela In-Reply-To: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> Message-ID: <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:41:39 -0000 [only follow up to chat, please] On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Daniela wrote: > It would be faster to write and maintain (at least for most people), but it It is faster to write and maintainable (full stop). > would not run faster. C is fine for projects other than fast, small > libraries. I also like shellscript, but only if speed and size are not > critical. Whetever it would run faster or not is in *MOST* cases not even debatable - in most cases, the compiler will generate faster code. Also, when say using SSE2 for fp becomes faster than x87 fp, you can simply recompile, instead of having to re-write your code. If your asm is good, it is going to be scheduled for the processor - again, in some time there will be new processors for which fats code is scheduled differently. > I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 years old and > have one and a half year of programming experience. But I love that low-level > stuff so much that I already think in ASM. See, in 3 years you are probably 2x as good as you are now at understanding of how computers work, what makes something fast (or not) than now. Most of the asm code will in the process turn out to be not worth the bother, while some of C might be salvagable, esp glue. If you haven't managed to become at least 2x as good as you are now in 3 years, then i'm afraid not many people wil worry what you write code in ... > I did not intend to troll around or start another holy war, I was just > expressing my opinion. > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 11:06:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28F816A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from snootles.jimz.net (snootles.jimz.net [69.55.224.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 957E743D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:06:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@jimz.net) Received: (qmail 71179 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2004 19:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?141.211.183.93?) (jamesez@141.211.183.93) by snootles.jimz.net with (RC4-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 5 Mar 2004 19:06:41 -0000 In-Reply-To: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> References: <200403050615.55106.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305155015.Y38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v612) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3A03F582-6ED8-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Zajkowski Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:06:37 -0500 To: Daniela X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.612) X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on snootles.jimz.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:06:49 -0000 On Mar 5, 2004, at 1:55 PM, Daniela wrote: > But I love that low-level stuff so much that I already think in ASM. May you find a rewarding and successful career writing devices drivers, firmware, and embedded systems. > I'm not speaking of your average code, I'm speaking of high-speed > assembly > language programs. Said by two people who each have more computer experience than twice your age: "Premature optimization is the root of all evil." (Tony Hoare originally, and quoted by Don Knuth). --Jim -- Jim Zajkowski OpenPGP 0x21135C3 http://www.jimz.net/pgp.asc System Administrator 8A9E 1DDF 944D 83C3 AEAB 8F74 8697 A823 2113 5C53 UM Life Sciences Institute From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 13:53:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5B516A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A53143D1D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzNFb-0007Kd-9o; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:52:59 +0100 From: Daniela To: Narvi Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:37 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:53:01 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 18:41, Narvi wrote: > [only follow up to chat, please] > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Daniela wrote: > > It would be faster to write and maintain (at least for most people), but > > it > > It is faster to write and maintainable (full stop). > > > would not run faster. C is fine for projects other than fast, small > > libraries. I also like shellscript, but only if speed and size are not > > critical. > > Whetever it would run faster or not is in *MOST* cases not even debatable > - in most cases, the compiler will generate faster code. Also, when say > using SSE2 for fp becomes faster than x87 fp, you can simply recompile, > instead of having to re-write your code. If your asm is good, it is going > to be scheduled for the processor - again, in some time there will be new > processors for which fats code is scheduled differently. I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the compiler-generated code. > > I have not even written a million code lines yet, as I'm only 16 years > > old and have one and a half year of programming experience. But I love > > that low-level stuff so much that I already think in ASM. > > See, in 3 years you are probably 2x as good as you are now at > understanding of how computers work, what makes something fast (or not) > than now. Most of the asm code will in the process turn out to be not > worth the bother, while some of C might be salvagable, esp glue. I hope that I will soon understand computers better, as that's after all one of my main reasons for participating in such discussions. At least I have the will to learn something. Of course, I don't bother optimizing code where I will not be able to get a great improvement. But I'm only a hobby programmer now, so most of the time I don't even bother writing programs that can't be optimized well. I also like C and shellscript and Lisp and numerous other scripting languages very much, and sometimes I even write software that the user actually interacts with, but I simply like ASM optimization best. I also love Intercal, but I don't write real software in it. Intercal is just for fun, and ASM is just for optimization (and device drivers). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:41:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCB716A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D3143D2F; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 3B4BA530E; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:41:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 28A97530A; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:41:17 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0D03333CA4; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 23:41:17 +0100 (CET) To: Daniela References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:41:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> (dgw@liwest.at's message of "Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:37 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:41:22 -0000 Daniela writes: > I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the > compiler-generated code. *rotfl* seriously, grow up. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:51:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2066E16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC54F43D31 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:51:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040305225122.JHIC21866.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:51:22 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:56:20 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Daniela Message-Id: <20040305145620.350719fb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> References: <200403051855.35905.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305200825.N38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:51:23 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:37 +0000 Daniela wrote: > I also love Intercal, but I don't write real software in it. Ever tried Befunge? You might like that too. :) -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 14:53:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F47A16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB21743D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:53:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040305225355.SMPP7704.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:53:55 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:58:53 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <200403052226.19659.dgw@liwest.at> <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <200403052302.31896.dgw@liwest.at> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: jim@jimz.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 22:53:56 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 Jim Zajkowski wrote: > On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) easier > > for me to code in ASM than in C. > > Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing > device drivers and firmware. Or compilers. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:02:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8958016A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtaw4.prodigy.net (mtaw4.prodigy.net [64.164.98.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7926243D41; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (885bff8db4d1d9a7040b1f9c303d35cb@adsl-67-119-53-203.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.203]) by mtaw4.prodigy.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25N29w8020990; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7C6CF5191D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:09 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Greg Lewis Message-ID: <20040305230209.GA21268@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200403051959.i25JxmNU073354@repoman.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403051959.i25JxmNU073354@repoman.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers/rpm4 pkg-descr X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:02:11 -0000 --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:59:48AM -0800, Greg Lewis wrote: > glewis 2004/03/05 11:59:48 PST >=20 > FreeBSD ports repository >=20 > Modified files: > archivers/rpm4 pkg-descr=20 > Log: > . The RPM web site now refers to it as the "RPM Package Manager", not t= he > "Red Hat Package Manager". Fix this and reformat the text. Why do GNU people seem to think recursive acronyms are cool? :) Kris --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFASQbwWry0BWjoQKURAoQMAKDwEjSrXA0DJ2l1pM3ZeJIHbJp77wCfUmBz z4pZmENEotuJZMhdWQFkmSg= =xv2Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:02:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ADFE16A4D0 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B48043D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:02:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25N2EUA037745; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:02:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25N2ELL037742; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:02:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:02:14 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Chris Pressey In-Reply-To: <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: jim@jimz.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:02:59 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 > Jim Zajkowski wrote: > > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > > > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) easier > > > for me to code in ASM than in C. > > > > Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing > > device drivers and firmware. > > Or compilers. > The majority of speed in compilers does not come from assembler tricks. Especially in compilers, code correctness is much more important than speed (is there anybody still who is not sick of gcc causing problems?) followed by high level analysis and optimisation. Pick up a compiler book - any compiler book - and you will see relatively little about ASM. > -Chris > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:10:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504A516A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgr2.xmission.com (mgr2.xmission.com [198.60.22.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD2C43D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: from [198.60.22.203] (helo=mgr3.xmission.com) by mgr2.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AzOS7-0008Sf-02; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:09:59 -0700 Received: from [207.135.128.145] (helo=misty.eyesbeyond.com) by mgr3.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1AzOS6-0008Es-Ss; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:09:59 -0700 Received: from misty.eyesbeyond.com (localhost.eyesbeyond.com [127.0.0.1]) i25N9v5G043761; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:09:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) Received: (from glewis@localhost) by misty.eyesbeyond.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i25N9vYD043760; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:09:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from glewis@eyesbeyond.com) X-Authentication-Warning: misty.eyesbeyond.com: glewis set sender to glewis@eyesbeyond.com using -f Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:09:56 -0700 From: Greg Lewis To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20040305230956.GA43649@misty.eyesbeyond.com> References: <200403051959.i25JxmNU073354@repoman.freebsd.org> <20040305230209.GA21268@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040305230209.GA21268@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on mgr3.xmission.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: glewis@eyesbeyond.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Mon Jan 26 13:00:24 MST 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/archivers/rpm4 pkg-descr X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:10:01 -0000 On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:02:09PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 11:59:48AM -0800, Greg Lewis wrote: > > glewis 2004/03/05 11:59:48 PST > > > > FreeBSD ports repository > > > > Modified files: > > archivers/rpm4 pkg-descr > > Log: > > . The RPM web site now refers to it as the "RPM Package Manager", not the > > "Red Hat Package Manager". Fix this and reformat the text. > > Why do GNU people seem to think recursive acronyms are cool? :) After trying to port rpm 4.2, I wish they thought portable code was cool instead ;). -- Greg Lewis Email : glewis@eyesbeyond.com Eyes Beyond Web : http://www.eyesbeyond.com Information Technology FreeBSD : glewis@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:23:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346CB16A4CE; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F370143D2D; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzOeg-00007S-5U; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:22:58 +0100 From: Daniela To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:17:36 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403060017.36820.dgw@liwest.at> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:23:00 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 22:41, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Daniela writes: > > I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the > > compiler-generated code. > > *rotfl* > > seriously, grow up. This wasn't meant as a generalization, I only wanted to say that every time= I=20 tried it so far, my code was faster. Sorry if this is misleading. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:24:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1D516A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0494043D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:24:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzOgO-000083-Vh; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:24:45 +0100 From: Daniela To: Chris Pressey Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:19:23 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <200403052247.37202.dgw@liwest.at> <20040305145620.350719fb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040305145620.350719fb.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403060019.23842.dgw@liwest.at> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:24:46 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 22:56, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:47:37 +0000 > > Daniela wrote: > > I also love Intercal, but I don't write real software in it. > > Ever tried Befunge? You might like that too. :) I have already heard about it. Thanks for the hint, I'll try it out. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:26:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCD516A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D47243D1F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:26:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzOiU-00009V-8y; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 00:26:54 +0100 From: Daniela To: Chris Pressey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 00:21:33 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403060021.33119.dgw@liwest.at> cc: jim@jimz.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:26:55 -0000 On Friday 05 March 2004 22:58, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 > > Jim Zajkowski wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) easier > > > for me to code in ASM than in C. > > > > Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing > > device drivers and firmware. > > Or compilers. I'm already trying to write a compiler that can optimize as much as I can do, but it will take me very long time until it is finished. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:30:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C5516A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465C943D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040305233006.TXJJ25767.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:30:06 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:35:05 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Narvi Message-Id: <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:30:07 -0000 On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:02:14 +0200 (EET) Narvi wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 > > Jim Zajkowski wrote: > > > > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > > > > > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) > > > > easier for me to code in ASM than in C. > > > > > > Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing > > > device drivers and firmware. > > > > Or compilers. > > The majority of speed in compilers does not come from assembler > tricks. I know. I was merely pointing out that firmware programming is not the only career path for someone who specializes in assembly. > [...] > Pick up a compiler book - any compiler book - and you will see > relatively little about ASM. I don't think that's because it's unimportant. To the contrary: "Familiarity with the target machine and its instruction set is a prerequisite for designing a good code generator. Unfortunately, in a general discussion of code generation it is not possible to describe the nuances of any target machine in sufficient detail to be able to generate good code for a complete language on that machine." -- The "Dragon" Book, pp 519 -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 15:40:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D3016A4DD for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19C843D4C for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i25NdkUA038251; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:39:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i25Ndkpb038248; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:39:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:39:46 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Chris Pressey In-Reply-To: <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=8.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on haldjas.folklore.ee cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 23:40:30 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:02:14 +0200 (EET) > Narvi wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 > > > Jim Zajkowski wrote: > > > > > > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > > > > > > > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) > > > > > easier for me to code in ASM than in C. > > > > > > > > Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing > > > > device drivers and firmware. > > > > > > Or compilers. > > > > The majority of speed in compilers does not come from assembler > > tricks. > > I know. I was merely pointing out that firmware programming is not the > only career path for someone who specializes in assembly. > > > [...] > > Pick up a compiler book - any compiler book - and you will see > > relatively little about ASM. > > I don't think that's because it's unimportant. To the contrary: > > "Familiarity with the target machine and its instruction set is a > prerequisite for designing a good code generator. Unfortunately, in a > general discussion of code generation it is not possible to describe > the nuances of any target machine in sufficient detail to be able to > generate good code for a complete language on that machine." > -- The "Dragon" Book, pp 519 > Sure - but code generation is but one part of the compiler and usualy not the largest. > -Chris > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 17:25:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BE416A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C8943D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:25:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i261PvQi002611; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:25:57 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i261PuUV002609; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:25:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:25:56 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Daniela Message-ID: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200403060017.36820.dgw@liwest.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:25:58 -0000 Daniela wrote: > > > I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the > > > compiler-generated code. > > > > *rotfl* > > > > seriously, grow up. > > This wasn't meant as a generalization, I only wanted to say that every time I > tried it so far, my code was faster. > Sorry if this is misleading. You're probably trying some specific category of programs. Apart from the fact that most compilers are pretty good these days, most programs run into bottlenecks other than the CPU rather quickly and there's not much point in optimising them. Look at the output of "top": there may be a hundred or more processes running on the system, but usually no process takes up more than a fraction of a percent of the CPU time. Bittorrent is written in python, and it won't be any faster written in asm because it spends most of its time waiting. Things were very different in the 1980s because (a) cpu speeds were 100-500 times lower than today and hadn't so greatly outpaced the rest of the hardware, (b) RAM was much more limited, so the savings in memory usage from handcoded assembly was significant, (c) the most common operating system was MS-DOS, which was hardly an operating system at all, so programs didn't worry about playing nice with one another. If you're doing some serious numbercrunching code, eg scientific programming, then you need to worry not only about speed but about correctness. (I don't mean to imply that correctness is unimportant otherwise, but a very minor bug in a scientific program can ruin your reputation.) Most people would not want to debug asm code and will take the performance hit (if any) of a compiler. And even if you're dissatisfied with the speed of the compiled program, if you profile the program you generally find that one routine, comprising less than 10% of the code, is responsible for over 90% of the execution time, so you really don't gain from optimising the rest. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 17:50:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F2516A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E804643D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:50:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzQxO-0001kp-Al; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 02:50:26 +0100 From: Daniela To: Rahul Siddharthan Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:45:05 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:50:28 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 01:25, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Daniela wrote: > > > > I know, by experience, that my code is always much faster than the > > > > compiler-generated code. > > > > > > *rotfl* > > > > > > seriously, grow up. > > > > This wasn't meant as a generalization, I only wanted to say that every > > time I tried it so far, my code was faster. > > Sorry if this is misleading. > > You're probably trying some specific category of programs. Apart from > the fact that most compilers are pretty good these days, most programs > run into bottlenecks other than the CPU rather quickly and there's not > much point in optimising them. Look at the output of "top": there may > be a hundred or more processes running on the system, but usually no > process takes up more than a fraction of a percent of the CPU time. > Bittorrent is written in python, and it won't be any faster written in > asm because it spends most of its time waiting. I hardly ever optimize only for CPU time. If there are other bottlenecks, I also try to combat them. > Things were very different in the 1980s because (a) cpu speeds were > 100-500 times lower than today and hadn't so greatly outpaced the > rest of the hardware, (b) RAM was much more limited, so the savings in > memory usage from handcoded assembly was significant, (c) the most > common operating system was MS-DOS, which was hardly an operating > system at all, so programs didn't worry about playing nice with one > another. > > If you're doing some serious numbercrunching code, eg scientific > programming, then you need to worry not only about speed but about > correctness. (I don't mean to imply that correctness is unimportant > otherwise, but a very minor bug in a scientific program can ruin your > reputation.) Most people would not want to debug asm code and will > take the performance hit (if any) of a compiler. And even if you're > dissatisfied with the speed of the compiled program, if you profile > the program you generally find that one routine, comprising less than > 10% of the code, is responsible for over 90% of the execution time, so > you really don't gain from optimising the rest. I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the time. A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have zero returned from the atoi() function when the user entered nonsense. If you don't need to check whether the user has entered a valid number, you can do it *much* faster. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 17:55:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DC116A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from postfix4-1.free.fr (postfix4-1.free.fr [213.228.0.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7611D43D2D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp4-q.free.fr (imp4-q.free.fr [212.27.42.4]) by postfix4-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52546D098B; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp4-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 4F21612868; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by imp4-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 Message-ID: <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Daniela References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> In-Reply-To: <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:55:36 -0000 Daniela wrote: > I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the time. > > A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have zero returned > from the atoi() function when the user entered nonsense. If you don't need to > check whether the user has entered a valid number, you can do it *much* > faster. Excellent example. Here you're limited by the speed of the fingers of the user who's entering the data, so there's *absolutely no point* in optimising the atoi() function in this way. (Or if you're reading from the disk, the disk I/O will be the bottleneck, though it's admittedly faster than fingers.) R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 19:17:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE62C16A4CF for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7187243D1D for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:17:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040306031702.BEPY9497.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:17:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:22:00 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-Id: <20040305192200.7a377e92.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:17:02 -0000 On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Daniela wrote: > > I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the time. > > > > A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have zero returned > > from the atoi() function when the user entered nonsense. If you don't need to > > check whether the user has entered a valid number, you can do it *much* > > faster. > > Excellent example. Here you're limited by the speed of the fingers of > the user who's entering the data, so there's *absolutely no point* in > optimising the atoi() function in this way. (Or if you're reading from > the disk, the disk I/O will be the bottleneck, though it's admittedly > faster than fingers.) I don't understand your point... atoi() is not an I/O function. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 19:19:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2968B16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0631D43D46 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from user-0cdfels.cable.mindspring.com ([24.215.186.188] helo=papagena.rockefeller.edu) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AzSLy-0006Nf-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:19:54 -0800 Received: (qmail 3876 invoked by uid 1002); 6 Mar 2004 03:19:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:19:54 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20040306031954.GA3713@online.fr> References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> <20040305192200.7a377e92.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040305192200.7a377e92.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> X-Operating-System: Linux 2.6.3 i686 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1+cvs20040105i cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:19:55 -0000 Chris Pressey said on Mar 5, 2004 at 19:22:00: > On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Daniela wrote: > > > I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the time. > > > > > > A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have zero returned > > > from the atoi() function when the user entered nonsense. If you don't need to > > > check whether the user has entered a valid number, you can do it *much* > > > faster. > > > > Excellent example. Here you're limited by the speed of the fingers of > > the user who's entering the data, so there's *absolutely no point* in > > optimising the atoi() function in this way. (Or if you're reading from > > the disk, the disk I/O will be the bottleneck, though it's admittedly > > faster than fingers.) > > I don't understand your point... atoi() is not an I/O function. Where did the "a" in the "atoi" come from? The point is that some very slow i/o routine gives you an ascii string (that's the only reason you'd ever need to deal with an ascii string), and then the C library's atoi() converts that to an integer. Now, what's the advantage of optimising atoi()? R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 19:33:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2B916A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:33:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes14-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A7543D31 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:33:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes14-hme0.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040306033355.OGMC27288.priv-edtnes14-hme0.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 20:33:55 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:38:53 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-Id: <20040305193853.51f74391.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040306031954.GA3713@online.fr> References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> <20040305192200.7a377e92.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306031954.GA3713@online.fr> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:33:55 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 22:19:54 -0500 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Chris Pressey said on Mar 5, 2004 at 19:22:00: > > On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > Daniela wrote: > > > > I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the > > > > time. > > > > > > > > A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have > > > > zero returned from the atoi() function when the user entered > > > > nonsense. If you don't need to check whether the user has > > > > entered a valid number, you can do it *much* faster. > > > > > > Excellent example. Here you're limited by the speed of the > > > fingers of the user who's entering the data, so there's > > > *absolutely no point* in optimising the atoi() function in this > > > way. (Or if you're reading from the disk, the disk I/O will be > > > the bottleneck, though it's admittedly faster than fingers.) > > > > I don't understand your point... atoi() is not an I/O function. > > Where did the "a" in the "atoi" come from? > > The point is that some very slow i/o routine gives you an ascii string > (that's the only reason you'd ever need to deal with an ascii string), Y'think? That ASCII string could be in core, loaded there at some point in the distant past, and only now you find you need to convert it to an integer as quickly as possible. I think you're also assuming that all I/O is slow. What about pipes, memory-backed filesystems, mmap'ed files, IPC, etc etc? > and then the C library's atoi() converts that to an integer. Now, > what's the advantage of optimising atoi()? > > R I love how everyone in this thread is trying to show that they're wiser than a sixteen-year-old. :) -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Mar 5 21:20:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B3716A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.224.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B65443D45 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 2004 21:20:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-chat@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AzUEM-0005v3-00 for ; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:20:10 +0100 Received: from anthonychavez.org ([166.70.126.66]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:20:09 +0100 Received: from acc by anthonychavez.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 06:20:09 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Anthony Chavez Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 21:13:54 -0700 Lines: 42 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: anthonychavez.org X-PGP-Key: http://www.anthonychavez.org/pubkey.asc User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:c9Dn9OKfghspGGwKjzrlcI8AUgc= Sender: news Subject: First GUBUG meeting March 13, 2004 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 05:20:11 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Greater Utah BSD User Group will be holding its first meeting on Saturday March 13, 2004 at 2:00pm MST. Topic: PIZZA (oh yeah, and BSD)! Admission is free, but donations to cover the cost of the pizza would certainly be appreciated. And if pizza is not enough to entice you, we'll be giving out free (as in "free") CD-Rs of the following software. FreeBSD 4.9-RELEASE (2 disc or 1 disc mini) FreeBSD 5.2.1-RELEASE (2 disc/mini i386) FreeSBIE 1.0 (the FreeBSD-based live CD!) NetBSD 1.6.2 (2 disc multiboot) OpenBSD 3.4 (home-built for i386) OpenDarwin 6.6.2 (ppc or x86) OpenOffice.org 1.1.0 (all platforms) Ultimate Boot CD 2.1 (must have for sysadmins!) For more information, including directions to the facility and instructions for subscribing to our mailing list can be found on the "Meetings" page on our Web site: http://www.gubug.org/ Special thanks go to Joe Warner and Siemens for making available the beautiful facility in which we will hold our meetings. Hope to see you there! - -- Anthony Chavez Greater Utah BSD User Group mailto:acc@gubug.org http://www.gubug.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) iD8DBQFASVAMbZTbIaRBRXERAvXrAKCAY8gzZK+rplul/1ZOPuOqDc+NKwCdGX45 JZZZ3P9heL/5+pq0EWLGX2E= =Ajji -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:28:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02F716A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7900443D2F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzZ2f-00005M-UC; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:28:26 +0100 From: Daniela To: Rahul Siddharthan Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:23:09 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> <200403060245.05790.dgw@liwest.at> <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> In-Reply-To: <1078538135.40492f9742e70@imp4-q.free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403061123.09764.dgw@liwest.at> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:28:28 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 01:55, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Daniela wrote: > > I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the time. > > > > A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have zero > > returned from the atoi() function when the user entered nonsense. If you > > don't need to check whether the user has entered a valid number, you can > > do it *much* faster. > > Excellent example. Here you're limited by the speed of the fingers of > the user who's entering the data, so there's *absolutely no point* in > optimising the atoi() function in this way. (Or if you're reading from > the disk, the disk I/O will be the bottleneck, though it's admittedly > faster than fingers.) I mean, it could be read from anywhere. A pipe, memory, cache, ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:31:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30FA016A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilzmailso02.liwest.at (lilzmailso02.liwest.at [212.33.55.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF2643D1F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailso02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzZ5D-00008j-FL; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 11:31:03 +0100 From: Daniela To: Rahul Siddharthan , Chris Pressey Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:25:47 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040306012556.GA2554@online.fr> <20040305192200.7a377e92.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306031954.GA3713@online.fr> In-Reply-To: <20040306031954.GA3713@online.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200403061125.47751.dgw@liwest.at> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:31:09 -0000 On Saturday 06 March 2004 03:19, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Chris Pressey said on Mar 5, 2004 at 19:22:00: > > On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:55:35 +0100 > > > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Daniela wrote: > > > > I like doing AI programming, that's numbercrunching most of the time. > > > > > > > > A compiler can't, for example, know whether you need to have zero > > > > returned from the atoi() function when the user entered nonsense. If > > > > you don't need to check whether the user has entered a valid number, > > > > you can do it *much* faster. > > > > > > Excellent example. Here you're limited by the speed of the fingers of > > > the user who's entering the data, so there's *absolutely no point* in > > > optimising the atoi() function in this way. (Or if you're reading from > > > the disk, the disk I/O will be the bottleneck, though it's admittedly > > > faster than fingers.) > > > > I don't understand your point... atoi() is not an I/O function. > > Where did the "a" in the "atoi" come from? > > The point is that some very slow i/o routine gives you an ascii string > (that's the only reason you'd ever need to deal with an ascii string), > and then the C library's atoi() converts that to an integer. Now, > what's the advantage of optimising atoi()? It was just an example. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 02:41:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D71116A4CE; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from svbcf02.win.tue.nl (svbcf02.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04AA43D1D; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 02:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mriem@win.tue.nl) Received: from SENSEI (dyn-099235.nbw.tue.nl [131.155.99.235]) by svbcf02.win.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2296D8C07; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:41:00 +0100 (MET) From: "Manfred Riem" To: "'Daniela'" , "'Josef El-Rayes'" , Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 11:40:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <200403061128.32256.dgw@liwest.at> Thread-Index: AcQDZi2c8/ooxtLzSmC0qncrgNAV7QAANnoQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-Id: <20040306104100.2296D8C07@svbcf02.win.tue.nl> cc: 'Johnson David' cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 10:41:01 -0000 > On Saturday 06 March 2004 02:46, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > Daniela wrote: > > > I know that it makes little sense to optimize parts of a > > > program that are not computationally expensive, and I > know that C or > > > other high-level languages *can* incur a lot of overhead. > > > > algorithms > asm > > > > i respect your asm love, but i have to tell you that > writing other stuff > > than cpu specifics is just ineffictive. it is errorprone, > takes a lot of > > more time and it is machine dependent. > > there is absolutely no reason to write code > > in asm for normal applications. > > and after all, best optimisation is good algorithms. asm > does not help > > you when you have bad O() in your algorithm. > > > > > I know it is true that, while I may have a great > knowledge, I simply lack > > > the experience in some areas. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > you would write in another way if you had *cough* great > knowledge (sorry..) > > I mean, my knowledge is great with respect to my age. Or do > you know many > 16-year-olds with my knowledge? Whether or not your knowledge is better than other 16 year olds is not an issue here. Chatting on advocacy about this stuff is. Please be so kind to move this to freebsd-chat@freebsd.org ;) Regards, Manfred Riem mriem@win.tue.nl http://www.riaca.win.tue.nl/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 05:47:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C21616A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pandora.intra.schim.net (b89110.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.89.110]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A9B43D1F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:47:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Received: from phooka.intra.schim.net (phooka.intra.schim.net [192.168.0.4]) i26DlccT045367; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:47:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from j.schim@netmaniacs.nl) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:47:31 +0100 From: Joao Schim To: Chris Pressey Message-Id: <20040306144731.3449848a.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> In-Reply-To: <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Organization: NetManiacs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 13:47:53 -0000 On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 15:35:05 -0800 Chris Pressey wrote: > On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 01:02:14 +0200 (EET) > Narvi wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 17:17:40 -0500 > > > Jim Zajkowski wrote: > > > > > > > On Mar 5, 2004, at 6:02 PM, Daniela wrote: > > > > > > > > > But I'm so into low-level programming, that it's (sometimes) > > > > > easier for me to code in ASM than in C. > > > > > > > > Like I said, may you have a long and successful career in writing > > > > device drivers and firmware. > > > > > > Or compilers. > > > > The majority of speed in compilers does not come from assembler > > tricks. > > I know. I was merely pointing out that firmware programming is not the > only career path for someone who specializes in assembly. > > > [...] > > Pick up a compiler book - any compiler book - and you will see > > relatively little about ASM. > > I don't think that's because it's unimportant. To the contrary: > > "Familiarity with the target machine and its instruction set is a > prerequisite for designing a good code generator. Unfortunately, in a > general discussion of code generation it is not possible to describe > the nuances of any target machine in sufficient detail to be able to > generate good code for a complete language on that machine." > -- The "Dragon" Book, pp 519 > > -Chris I can imagine there's still a lot of ASM programming involved in console computer games.. Atleast it still was a few years ago. I remember a conversation with an old programming buddy of mine with whom i discovered the world of C64 assembler programming when we were like 12 years old. He told me he was still doing assembler for the games he was contracted for. That was in 2000 -- or so. Regards, Joao From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 05:59:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B5A16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8772343D2D for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 05:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 97059530E; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:59:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 71FEB530A; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:59:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id F3C8A33CA4; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:59:36 +0100 (CET) To: Joao Schim References: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306144731.3449848a.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:59:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040306144731.3449848a.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> (Joao Schim's message of "Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:47:31 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.63 cc: Chris Pressey cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 13:59:45 -0000 Joao Schim writes: > I can imagine there's still a lot of ASM programming involved in=20 > console computer games.. Atleast it still was a few years ago. No, the PlayStation changed all that. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 06:46:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C106816A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 06:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D3E43D2F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 06:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4461935788; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:45:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4049E420.3080609@energyhq.es.eu.org> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 15:45:52 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (X11/20040301) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <2EAEEFC4-6EEE-11D8-AE09-000A95DA58FE@jimz.net> <20040305145853.3a365f60.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306144731.3449848a.j.schim@netmaniacs.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000207020603090102020103" cc: Joao Schim cc: Chris Pressey cc: dgw@liwest.at cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 14:46:31 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000207020603090102020103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Joao Schim writes: > >>I can imagine there's still a lot of ASM programming involved in >>console computer games.. Atleast it still was a few years ago. > > > No, the PlayStation changed all that. There's a lot of hand-coded mips assembly code in PS games. The PSX didn't have a very powerful hardware, and needed a lot of tricks for games to look good. Some tricks were in the gfx area, most of them in the programming area. A very good example of this is Crash Bandicoot, which rendered most of the graphics as gouraud, letting enough free memory and bus cycles for the streaming music system. The same applies to PS2 games. To be able to use 5:1 audio the programmers at EA (I think they were the first to come up with the idea) found out they could use one of the VU coprocessors to process the audio, while doing 3d math with the other. There are a lot of interesting tricks game companies have found since the PS2 were released. The rise of quality in the games comes from getting more intimate knowledge of the underlying hardware and learning that in the PS2 world you have very small very fast caches that need to be constantly filled, as opposed to the PC world with slow buses and big memories. Most of that stuff is done in assembler. FWIW, mips assembler is a very nice ISA to work with. Although most PC games mostly rely on hardware these days, there's still place for the 90/10 rule, i.e. writing the critical inner loops in asm, or hand optimize your SSE/3dNow code. 3D hardware changed the way games are written, though, most programmers today woulnd't know how to init mode-x on their VGA cards even if they supported it :) To stay on topic, while I find assembly programing extremely funny, specially on the Amiga, for systems programming I think it's better to avoid it as much as you can. Current AMD and Intel space heaters can eat code fast enough that only critical parts really need to be hand optimized (kernel, libc, that kind of stuff). Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 --------------ms000207020603090102020103 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIJmDCC BMgwggKwoAMCAQICAhYWMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMHkxEDAOBgNVBAoTB1Jvb3QgQ0ExHjAc BgNVBAsTFWh0dHA6Ly93d3cuY2FjZXJ0Lm9yZzEiMCAGA1UEAxMZQ0EgQ2VydCBTaWduaW5n IEF1dGhvcml0eTEhMB8GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYSc3VwcG9ydEBjYWNlcnQub3JnMB4XDTA0MDMw MTE2MjcwMloXDTA1MDMwMTE2MjcwMlowRDEZMBcGA1UEAxMQQ0FjZXJ0IFVzZXIgQ2VydDEn MCUGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYYZmx5bm5AZW5lcmd5aHEuZXMuZXUub3JnMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0B AQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA07LSCTC1BRQJu+29UYTysclyU+Nlfnl6BL4PCsCCoThxOO6G 9JVkioylXRwMB2Gcanls6MIqMMxiZ7pT9RNgWp5pTtvn9/P/9Z7paigVW55I9dXPI4x24/Zr FmdeOW5benkMjbxkzIe/pEWsN0q/fFKKjBqiv6zO0bM5zPjOZq6Qmo+114WTGPQg8k2D7TGP 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(Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6a) Gecko/20031030 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi References: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.2.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:41:55 -0000 Narvi wrote: >>"Familiarity with the target machine and its instruction set is a >>prerequisite for designing a good code generator. Unfortunately, in a >>general discussion of code generation it is not possible to describe >>the nuances of any target machine in sufficient detail to be able to >>generate good code for a complete language on that machine." >> -- The "Dragon" Book, pp 519 > > Sure - but code generation is but one part of the compiler and usualy not > the largest. Well, it is still a crucial part of the compiler and deeply tied into the rest. It is also the reason why simply using the Intel C++ compiler instead of .NET2003 (both at full optimization) made our vector math library run five times faster... guess who knows the target architecture ;-) In this highly specific example hand optimized assembler code is another four times faster for some functions, but I think this is not a problem of compilers per se. I guess the C/C++ language simply isn't giving the compiler all the information it would need. I haven't yet tried Intel's feedback optimization feature, but it will be interesting to see what it will do to our library. Also, to get a bit closer to the original topic. I can't remember where I read this (DDJ probably), but apparently programmers who have a deep understanding of computer architecture through low level programming also produce "better" code in high level languages. My interpretation is that they are simply feeding the compiler a better foundation to work with. Cheers, -stephan -- stephan mantler | web www.stephanmantler.com ----------------------------| net step@stephanmantler.com It's not an adventure | fon +43 (699) 104 128 42 until something f--ks up. | fax +43 (699) 404 128 42 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 13:54:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823C416A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94D343D2F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:54:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan0.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.162] helo=localhost) by tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzjkN-0002rd-Fc for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:54:15 +0000 Received: from rx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.161]) by localhost (scan0.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 10762-06 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:54:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzjkN-0002rX-2C for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:54:15 +0000 Received: (qmail 10160 invoked by uid 1004); 6 Mar 2004 21:54:15 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.67. sweep: 2.18/3.79. Clear:RC:1(163.1.161.131):. Processed in 0.017843 secs); 06 Mar 2004 21:54:15 -0000 Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 6 Mar 2004 21:54:15 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040306214526.08c5ed70@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:53:51 +0000 To: stephan mantler From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <404A465A.1040009@stephanmantler.com> References: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <404A465A.1040009@stephanmantler.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:54:17 -0000 At 21:44 06/03/2004, stephan mantler wrote: >Also, to get a bit closer to the original topic. I can't remember where I >read this (DDJ probably), but apparently programmers who have a deep >understanding of computer architecture through low level programming also >produce "better" code in high level languages. My interpretation is that >they are simply feeding the compiler a better foundation to work with. Having seen quite a lot of undergraduate "computer science" students over past decade, I can certainly support that interpretation. Nobody quite understands why hash tables are not a perfect data structure until they've tried to implement one in assembly language. (And, after performing such a task, few people will use hash tables without asking themselves, at least for a moment, if there might be a cheaper solution to the problem at hand.) Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 14:12:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EDB16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net (outbound02.telus.net [199.185.220.221]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E5343D45 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040306221242.GIMA5819.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:12:42 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:17:42 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Colin Percival Message-Id: <20040306141742.4f41ba27.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040306214526.08c5ed70@imap.sfu.ca> References: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <404A465A.1040009@stephanmantler.com> <6.0.1.1.1.20040306214526.08c5ed70@imap.sfu.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:12:43 -0000 On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 21:53:51 +0000 Colin Percival wrote: > At 21:44 06/03/2004, stephan mantler wrote: > >Also, to get a bit closer to the original topic. I can't remember > >where I > >read this (DDJ probably), but apparently programmers who have a deep > >understanding of computer architecture through low level programming > >also produce "better" code in high level languages. My interpretation > >is that they are simply feeding the compiler a better foundation to > >work with. > > Having seen quite a lot of undergraduate "computer science" students > over past decade, I can certainly support that interpretation. Nobody > quite understands why hash tables are not a perfect data structure > until they've tried to implement one in assembly language. (And, > after performing such a task, few people will use hash tables without > asking themselves, at least for a moment, if there might be a cheaper > solution to the problem at hand.) > > Colin Percival Not sure what you mean here... surely it's no easier to implement (say) an AVL tree or a red-black tree in assembly? In fact, I'd think a hash function would often be a good candidate for hand-coded assembly - if you want to play "Beat the Compiler" :) -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 14:31:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F0316A4CF for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E138643D39 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:31:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan0.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.162] helo=localhost) by tx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzkKG-0008Ec-Fi for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:31:20 +0000 Received: from rx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.161]) by localhost (scan0.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 31531-02 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx0.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AzkKC-0008EE-2b for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:31:16 +0000 Received: (qmail 21898 invoked by uid 1004); 6 Mar 2004 22:31:16 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (clamscan: 0.67. sweep: 2.18/3.79. Clear:RC:1(163.1.161.131):. Processed in 0.57497 secs); 06 Mar 2004 22:31:16 -0000 Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 6 Mar 2004 22:31:16 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040306221435.03a97e20@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:31:14 +0000 To: Chris Pressey From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: <20040306141742.4f41ba27.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <404A465A.1040009@stephanmantler.com> <6.0.1.1.1.20040306214526.08c5ed70@imap.sfu.ca> <20040306141742.4f41ba27.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:31:22 -0000 At 22:17 06/03/2004, Chris Pressey wrote: >Colin Percival wrote: > > Nobody > > quite understands why hash tables are not a perfect data structure > > until they've tried to implement one in assembly language. (And, > > after performing such a task, few people will use hash tables without > > asking themselves, at least for a moment, if there might be a cheaper > > solution to the problem at hand.) > >Not sure what you mean here... surely it's no easier to implement (say) >an AVL tree or a red-black tree in assembly? Perhaps not, but it's much easier to implement an unsorted list. :-) I've often seen people using hash tables to keep track of very small numbers of objects, where a simple sequential scan will be much faster than a hash table lookup; I also see people using hash tables for data where the keys rarely, if ever, change. >In fact, I'd think a hash function would often be a good candidate for >hand-coded assembly - if you want to play "Beat the Compiler" :) Quite likely, yes[0]. But the act of writing usually makes people realize just how much work the processor does every time a hashlookup() call is made. The amount of work the programmer does isn't really important. (You're not planning on assembly-coding a hash table more than once, are you?) Of course, part of the problem is that most undergraduate courses still teach the myth that random access memory is, err, random access. Colin Percival [0] With the exception of cryptographic hash functions, which tend to be constructed in such a way that any half-decent compiler will output exactly the same code as a human would. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 15:50:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256D816A4D2 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net (outbound03.telus.net [199.185.220.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C181843D1D for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040306235013.HPYG3453.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo>; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:50:13 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:55:13 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: Colin Percival Message-Id: <20040306155513.6a75e264.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040306221435.03a97e20@imap.sfu.ca> References: <20040306005744.T38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040305153505.74061868.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20040306013914.D38020@haldjas.folklore.ee> <404A465A.1040009@stephanmantler.com> <6.0.1.1.1.20040306214526.08c5ed70@imap.sfu.ca> <20040306141742.4f41ba27.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040306221435.03a97e20@imap.sfu.ca> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Most wanted X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:50:14 -0000 On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:31:14 +0000 Colin Percival wrote: > At 22:17 06/03/2004, Chris Pressey wrote: > >Colin Percival wrote: > > > Nobody > > > quite understands why hash tables are not a perfect data structure > > > until they've tried to implement one in assembly language. (And, > > > after performing such a task, few people will use hash tables > > > without asking themselves, at least for a moment, if there might > > > be a cheaper solution to the problem at hand.) > > > >Not sure what you mean here... surely it's no easier to implement > >(say) an AVL tree or a red-black tree in assembly? > > Perhaps not, but it's much easier to implement an unsorted list. > :-) > > I've often seen people using hash tables to keep track of very > small numbers of objects, where a simple sequential scan will be much > faster than a hash table lookup; I also see people using hash tables > for data where the keys rarely, if ever, change. Ah, yes, that's a good point. Modern high-level languages do tend to just give you these things on the strictly black-box ADT level, like dictionaries... and with all the guts abstracted away, programmers do tend to let themselves get a bit carried away. It Does What I Want, it Must Be What I Need. And, yeah. A hash table is really nothing by itself. It's just a way of taking a long list (or other structure) and splitting it up into N smaller structures. If your lists are never that long in the first place, there's no point. > >In fact, I'd think a hash function would often be a good candidate > >for hand-coded assembly - if you want to play "Beat the Compiler" :) > > Quite likely, yes[0]. But the act of writing usually makes people > realize just how much work the processor does every time a > hashlookup() call is made. The amount of work the programmer does > isn't really important. (You're not planning on assembly-coding a > hash table more than once, are you?) If I am, rest assured it's only for my own entertainment. > Of course, part of the problem is that most undergraduate courses > still teach the myth that random access memory is, err, random access. :-) -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 15:54:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D25C16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E7943D3F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 15:54:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rpratt1950@earthlink.net) Received: from user167.net971.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([69.34.136.167] helo=kt.weeble.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Azlca-0003QY-00; Sat, 06 Mar 2004 15:54:20 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 18:54:35 -0500 From: Randy Pratt To: "JJB" Message-Id: <20040306185435.4908d493.rpratt1950@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.7 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Chuck McManis cc: Chuck Swiger cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: New Users Learning FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 23:54:22 -0000 This thread has gone beyond a question and should be moved to -chat and trim freebsd-questions from the cc in further discussion. On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 16:15:01 -0500 you wrote: > There will all ways to the party line drawn between the developers > and the users. Developers want total freedom about how to install > and config while the users wany automated no question asked install. > If FBSD was an commercial product, the developers world would never > be seen by the customers. There is no question that the sysinstall > process is not new-be friendly. Heck it's not even user friendly to > experienced users. That's odd. I don't seen any "party line" drawn between developers and users. Quite a few developers spend time answering questions on the various lists. IMHO, very few users want an automated no questions asked install where everything is decided for them by someone else. I prefer the idea of allowing users choices. Many people find sysinstall quite easy after having read the documentation/handbook. Perhaps I've spent too much time using sysinstall when I wrote most of the Handbook Installation section to see what is difficult. > FBSD all ready has an division point called the > development code branch for the developers and the stable code > branch for the user community. The stable branch can be considered > akin to an commercial product release version. -CURRENT has always been a testing ground for new code and -STABLE is for production use. After sufficient time, well-tested code is merged from -CURRENT into -STABLE (when appropriate). > The problem is the > development total freedom install method is not really appropriate > to the technical knowledge level of the general user community and > this division between communities has always gone in favor of the > developers. This will never change as long as developers are in > control for it's their nature to be blind to the needs of the users > of the finished results of their labor. The majority of the developers volunteer their time and resources. Consequently, they spend time working on projects/code that interests them or they have a need for. Usually this benefits everyone. There have been instances where developers have been hired to develop specific features. This option is always open. > This is even evident in the > tone and depth of the documentation of the man pages and the > handbook. Every thing is geared to the documentation reference needs > of the developer and technical knowledgeable user. There really is > no provisions for the people new to FBSD. They are kind of just left > on the sidelines and have to dig through a lot of old outdated > public internet how-to's, man pages which are so cryptic they are > next to useless, and the handbook which is written in an style that > is very hard to comprehend, the poor new user has to learn by trial > and error. I've not seen this level of criticism in a long time. Most all of the comments I've seen indicate that FreeBSD has some of the best documentation of any of the free OS's. Perhaps you could point out some specific examples of "good" documentation that we could learn from. If there's some part of the Handbook's installation instructions that seem to be cryptic, I'd certainly like them to be pointed out. I've received many emails thanking me for the time I've put in those in the past 5 years so I'm hard-pressed to figure out where I went wrong. > We can all see that this situation is almost designed on > purpose to make the new user pay their dues before they can join the > FBSD developers club. All this does is inhibits the growth that FBSD > could really experience. An good compromise which services the wants > and needs of both communities would be to add an newbe user-friendly > install process on stable branch only. A step-by-step instructional > install guide that explains how the system is designed to be used > would go a very long way to speeding up the learning process of the > newbe and go an long way to removing the frustration that we see > voiced all the time in this questions list. Yes, there are dues to be paid in learning anything new. It was not designed that way; its just the way it is. No one will deny that there is a steep learning curve involved in learning to use a free unix. Once you have a basic level of understanding to build on, things will go smoother and those cryptic manual pages will become a valuable asset. They will probably never become tutorial style since they are meant to be reference documents. > Just my general observation's and comments based on what I have seen > and read in the list. Your use of sweeping generalizations is a bit unfair and incorrect in the ways they were stated. More specific information would be needed before anyone could take any sort of corrective action. I do not take part in bikesheds, flamefests or troll-feeding so I won't respond unless you have specific questions or constructive suggestions for improvements to the project. Best regards, Randy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Mar 6 20:02:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C8816A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3899743D1F for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:02:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.5.85.228]) by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.netSMTP <20040307040234.VTTR1092.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:02:34 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:07:35 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040306200735.6d1aec91.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20040306185435.4908d493.rpratt1950@earthlink.net> References: <20040306185435.4908d493.rpratt1950@earthlink.net> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.9 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:02:35 -0000 On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 18:54:35 -0500 Randy Pratt wrote: > IMHO, very few users want an automated no questions asked install > where everything is decided for them by someone else. I prefer > the idea of allowing users choices. Then you should allow them the choice of having a no-questions-asked install where everything is decided for them by someone else :) Sorry, I couldn't resist. -Chris