From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 12:01:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305CF16A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:01:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns3.tele-kom.ru (ns3.tele-kom.ru [217.107.251.251]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0DCAA43D49 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:01:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from doublef@tele-kom.ru) Received: (qmail 23319 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2004 10:58:38 -0000 Received: from mx.tele-kom.ru (213.80.148.6) by ns.tele-kom.ru with SMTP; 29 Jun 2004 10:58:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 34020 invoked by uid 555); 29 Jun 2004 12:01:32 -0000 Received: from shark (213.80.149.136) by t-k.ru with TeleMail/2 id 1088510491-34000 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jun 16:01:31 2004 +0400 (MSD) Received: by shark (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D2F24239; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:01:12 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:01:11 +0400 From: Sergey Zaharchenko To: artifex Message-ID: <20040629120110.GA356@shark.localdomain> References: <20040627135532.85572.qmail@web14922.mail.yahoo.com> <40DEDA22.30106@gldis.ca> <20040627181552.7b2d445e.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <40DF00FB.4060207@gldis.ca> <20040628141840.GA8282@shark.localdomain> <5010700060.20040629103600@freemail.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5010700060.20040629103600@freemail.hu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Listening-To: /Machina_Vremeni/Rodnoy_dom cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [OT] Re: cue images X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:01:21 -0000 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 10:36:00AM +0200, artifex probably wrote: > Hello! >=20 > >> Where are the international standard that describe the ISO file (not > >> the filesystem!) format? > > \From the mount_cd9660 manpage > >>& MOUNT_CD9660(8) FreeBSD System Manager's Manual MOUNT_CD9660= (8) > >>& NAME > >>& mount_cd9660 - mount an ISO-9660 file system > Ehh. Bad answer. ;-) It's for the ISO 9660 file system (as it writes), > not the .iso file format. It's two different things. The reason of saying that it's standard is that a file in `.iso format' is an exact image of an ISO standard filesystem. Whatever conventions are mentioned in the standard, they are the same in an `.iso format file'. If ISO 9660 says the root directory starts at byte XXX, there it starts in the image. If ISO says the integers will be encoded in both little-endian and big-endian formats, so they are in the image. > For example you > can store macintosh filesystem in .iso file and you can't mount by > mount_cd9660 of course but it still an .iso file. Right? If the image you stored is indeed an image of an ISO filesystem, I can. man vnconfig (4.x) or man mdconfig (5.x). If not --- well, I can store a picture of a nude in JPG format and name it to have an .iso extension. Surely we are talking about formats, not extensions. I don't mean the .iso extension is standard. You can make it `.yabadabadoo' if you prefer. I don't mean that an `.iso format file' can describe absolutely anything (audio, etc.). But it does its job. A waek analogy, but if I measure my weight with the device at hand and tell you the number in kilograms, you won't object saying that I didn't use the international platinum-iridium kilogram for my measurements? An =2Eiso image is an `instance' of an ISO filesystem, just as my weightometer:) is an `instance' of that kilogram. --=20 DoubleF Excessive login or logout messages are a sure sign of senility. --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA4VoEwo7hT/9lVdwRAvjeAJsFerTVnQKt1l9Z7jfIZORVceysywCbBPtK RLMHfqpTnJXPlmU4Lc0ai84= =T8Nt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 17:28:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3DC16A4CF for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:28:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (mail1.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030B543D39 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:28:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from imta06a2.registeredsite.com (imta06a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.15])i5THSbWZ011765 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:28:37 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta06a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040629172837.GCNQ4212.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com> for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:28:37 -0400 Message-ID: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:28:32 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:28:54 -0000 I was reading with some surprise that some of the MAC and other "addons" from trusted bsd are to be incorporated. I can already see the security advisories for these things like we've had for tcpwrapper, kerberos, heimdal, jail, openssl, etcetera ad infinitum. Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make exploits near impossible. I dloaded 5.2 but haven't installed yet. I hope there is a way to disable the MAC and other of these "trustedbsd features" that seem to keep DARPA funded userland people busy. -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 18:24:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA57316A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:24:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from magellan.palisadesys.com (magellan.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A750343D2D for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:24:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ghelmer@palisadesys.com) Received: from [192.188.162.240] (ghelmer@volans.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.240]) (authenticated bits=0)i5TINnZg079126; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:23:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ghelmer@palisadesys.com) Message-ID: <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:23:49 -0500 From: Guy Helmer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (X11/20040628) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Lyons References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> In-Reply-To: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:24:50 -0000 Kevin Lyons wrote: > I was reading with some surprise that some of the MAC and other > "addons" from trusted bsd are to be incorporated. Old news. > I can already see the security advisories for these things like we've > had for tcpwrapper, kerberos, heimdal, jail, openssl, etcetera ad > infinitum. How many of these were developed as part of BSD? One: jail. > Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is > cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make > exploits near impossible. That's great work. Now, let's build on that so that the entire system is properly compartmentalized (i.e., MAC). > I dloaded 5.2 but haven't installed yet. I hope there is a way to > disable the MAC and other of these "trustedbsd features" that seem to > keep DARPA funded userland people busy. Is it so much harder to look a little more deeply at the sytem than to write a troll/rant? Yes, MAC is a group of kernel compile options, and they are not shipped as part of the GENERIC kernel. From /sys/conf/NOTES: # Support for Mandatory Access Control (MAC): options MAC options MAC_BIBA options MAC_BSDEXTENDED options MAC_DEBUG options MAC_IFOFF options MAC_LOMAC options MAC_MLS options MAC_NONE options MAC_PARTITION options MAC_PORTACL options MAC_SEEOTHERUIDS options MAC_STUB options MAC_TEST Please take a look at the TrustedBSD implementation before ranting about "DARPA funded userland people". There are good reasons why these people were funded. Guy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 18:40:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2546016A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:40:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail2.atl.registeredsite.com (mail2.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.76]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D542043D31 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:40:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from imta02a2.registeredsite.com (imta02a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.11])i5TIedS4025901 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:40:39 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta02a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040629184039.TOSP4947.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com> for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:40:39 -0400 Message-ID: <40E1B7A3.3040409@ofdengineering.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:40:35 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> In-Reply-To: <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:40:42 -0000 > >> I can already see the security advisories for these things like we've >> had for tcpwrapper, kerberos, heimdal, jail, openssl, etcetera ad >> infinitum. > > > How many of these were developed as part of BSD? One: jail. Well, point being that more layers/lines of code added, the more potential vulnerabilities. I don't think we can say the FreeBSD or TrustedBSD developers are any more exploit immune than other folks. > >> Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is >> cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make >> exploits near impossible. > > > That's great work. Now, let's build on that so that the entire system > is properly compartmentalized (i.e., MAC). But they are not doing that, they are ONLY adding some new functionalilty. Am I misinformed or has any vm work been done on the level of openbsd 3.4, beyond perhaps propolice. > >> I dloaded 5.2 but haven't installed yet. I hope there is a way to >> disable the MAC and other of these "trustedbsd features" that seem to >> keep DARPA funded userland people busy. > > > Is it so much harder to look a little more deeply at the sytem than to > write a troll/rant? Not ranting/trolling. Thanks for the info, that is good. As I said, i have not installed/configured it yet. I have been noticing feaping creaturism in freebsd as of late so I was simply concerned about it. > Yes, MAC is a group of kernel compile options, and they are not shipped > as part of the GENERIC kernel. From /sys/conf/NOTES: > > # Support for Mandatory Access Control (MAC): > options MAC > options MAC_BIBA > options MAC_BSDEXTENDED > options MAC_DEBUG > options MAC_IFOFF > options MAC_LOMAC > options MAC_MLS > options MAC_NONE > options MAC_PARTITION > options MAC_PORTACL > options MAC_SEEOTHERUIDS > options MAC_STUB > options MAC_TEST > > Please take a look at the TrustedBSD implementation before ranting about > "DARPA funded userland people". There are good reasons why these people > were funded. Hmmpf. Perhaps it is because there was some leftover when theo lost his money :). > > Guy > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 18:43:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB7116A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:43:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd5mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CFF43D41 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:43:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-ser.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110])2003)) with ESMTP id <0I03004QS2NG0R@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:42:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml3so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.147]) by pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I0300AGP2NGEGK0@pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:42:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk (S0106006067227a4a.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.233.42]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0300C5C2NFAN@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:42:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:42:25 -0700 From: Colin Percival In-reply-to: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> X-Sender: cperciva@popserver.sfu.ca (Unverified) To: Kevin Lyons Message-id: <6.1.0.6.1.20040629112919.03bcffc8@popserver.sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:43:10 -0000 At 10:28 29/06/2004, Kevin Lyons wrote: >I was reading with some surprise that some of the MAC and other "addons" from trusted bsd are to be incorporated. > >I can already see the security advisories for these things like we've had for tcpwrapper, kerberos, heimdal, jail, openssl, etcetera ad infinitum. It's worth noting that some of these advisories are rather esoteric. For example, FreeBSD-SA-04:09.kadmind doesn't affect any binary installations of FreeBSD, since it requires that both Kerberos 4 and Kerberos 5 are built. Meanwhile, despite having two security issues with jails (issues which weakened jails, but did not allow any privilege beyond that of an un-jailed user), there was one advisory (FreeBSD-SA-04:06.ipv6) for which jails (in their default configuration) were a specific workaround. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 19:17:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB27B16A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:17:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from magellan.palisadesys.com (magellan.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9113F43D45 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:17:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ghelmer@palisadesys.com) Received: from [192.188.162.240] (ghelmer@volans.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.240]) (authenticated bits=0)i5TJHSQK079807; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:17:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ghelmer@palisadesys.com) Message-ID: <40E1C047.7060708@palisadesys.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:17:27 -0500 From: Guy Helmer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (X11/20040628) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Lyons , chat@freebsd.org References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> <40E1B750.8030808@ofdengineering.com> In-Reply-To: <40E1B750.8030808@ofdengineering.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:17:34 -0000 Kevin Lyons wrote: > >> I can already see the security advisories for these things like we've > >> had for tcpwrapper, kerberos, heimdal, jail, openssl, etcetera ad > >> infinitum. > > > > > > How many of these were developed as part of BSD? One: jail. > > Well, point being that more layers/lines of code added, the more > potential vulnerabilities. I don't think we can say the FreeBSD or > TrustedBSD developers are any more exploit immune than other folks. > > >> Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is > >> cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make > >> exploits near impossible. > > > > > > That's great work. Now, let's build on that so that the entire system > > is properly compartmentalized (i.e., MAC). > > But they are not doing that, they are ONLY adding some new > functionalilty. Am I misinformed or has any vm work been done on the > level of openbsd 3.4, beyond perhaps propolice. This new functionality (if used properly) would significantly mitigate the results of a vulnerability in any other part of the system. For example, think of an imap server running as root but that only can read and write files in areas of the system labeled for use by the mail system, and additionally not allowed to make outgoing network connections. Any exploited vulnerability (buffer overflow, race condition, etc.) in this imap server would result in trivial access to the system despite its running as "root". FreeBSD has been less vulnerable to heap attacks because of the different malloc in libc. I haven't paid attention to whether non-executable stack pages have been considered or committed by the VM gurus... > >> I dloaded 5.2 but haven't installed yet. I hope there is a way to > >> disable the MAC and other of these "trustedbsd features" that seem to > >> keep DARPA funded userland people busy. > > > > > > Is it so much harder to look a little more deeply at the sytem than to > > write a troll/rant? > > Not ranting/trolling. Thanks for the info, that is good. As I said, > i have not installed/configured it yet. I have been noticing feaping > creaturism in freebsd as of late so I was simply concerned about it. Good -- my "troll detector" is on alert today :-) > > Yes, MAC is a group of kernel compile options, and they are not shipped > > as part of the GENERIC kernel. From /sys/conf/NOTES: > > > > # Support for Mandatory Access Control (MAC): > > options MAC > > options MAC_BIBA > > options MAC_BSDEXTENDED > > options MAC_DEBUG > > options MAC_IFOFF > > options MAC_LOMAC > > options MAC_MLS > > options MAC_NONE > > options MAC_PARTITION > > options MAC_PORTACL > > options MAC_SEEOTHERUIDS > > options MAC_STUB > > options MAC_TEST > > > > Please take a look at the TrustedBSD implementation before ranting > about > > "DARPA funded userland people". There are good reasons why these > people > > were funded. > > Hmmpf. Perhaps it is because there was some leftover when theo lost > his money :). AFAIK, the TrustedBSD project was funded before Theo's DARPA money was stopped. I would be even more dissappointed in this incident if there were some connection (which I doubt). Guy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 19:20:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A7016A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:20:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail2.atl.registeredsite.com (mail2.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.76]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1FBF43D4C for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:20:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from imta01a2.registeredsite.com (imta01a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.10])i5TJKS00030724; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:20:28 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta01a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040629192028.ZADI4075.imta01a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com>; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:20:28 -0400 Message-ID: <40E1C0F7.7050105@ofdengineering.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:20:23 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Percival References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <6.1.0.6.1.20040629112919.03bcffc8@popserver.sfu.ca> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.1.20040629112919.03bcffc8@popserver.sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:20:33 -0000 Colin Percival wrote: > At 10:28 29/06/2004, Kevin Lyons wrote: > >>I was reading with some surprise that some of the MAC and other "addons" from trusted bsd are to be incorporated. >> >>I can already see the security advisories for these things like we've had for tcpwrapper, kerberos, heimdal, jail, openssl, etcetera ad infinitum. > > > It's worth noting that some of these advisories are rather esoteric. > For example, FreeBSD-SA-04:09.kadmind doesn't affect any binary > installations of FreeBSD, since it requires that both Kerberos 4 and > Kerberos 5 are built. > > Meanwhile, despite having two security issues with jails (issues > which weakened jails, but did not allow any privilege beyond that of > an un-jailed user), there was one advisory (FreeBSD-SA-04:06.ipv6) > for which jails (in their default configuration) were a specific > workaround. Some of them are not esoteric. So, following the current logic, I guess we'll have more "jails" for jail and more wrappers for wrapper :) ? Presumably FreeBSD r-eng runs some kind of audit on port source like that mentioned in "Building Secure Software". Maybe that audit process should be improved rather than trying to add more layers of paint to fill in the cracks (proverbial)? -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 20:14:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9482D16A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:14:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59A743D1D for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:14:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BfOzx-000HpG-BE; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:14:33 +0100 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:14:33 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Kevin Lyons Message-ID: <20040629201433.GV34683@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> <40E1B7A3.3040409@ofdengineering.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40E1B7A3.3040409@ofdengineering.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:14:07 -0000 On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 01:40:35PM -0500, Kevin Lyons wrote: > Well, point being that more layers/lines of code added, the more > potential vulnerabilities. Myth. Which is more vulnerable to attack - the kernel that gets compiled when you build GENERIC, or a few lines that strcpy's some input recieved over a socket running as root? LOC is about as effective a measure of potential vulnerabilities as it is a measure of how productive a developer is or the quality of the design process - i.e. it's useless and the myth has been thrown around for god knows how long by people who really should know better.* Well-written code is well-written, no matter how many lines long it is. Ditto for badly-written code. I've seen 20-liners that could be broken by a competent 13-year old, and 20,000-liners that were impregnable. I am not alone. > I don't think we can say the FreeBSD or > TrustedBSD developers are any more exploit immune than other folks. Based on the number of security announcements over the last 5 years, I could argue very convincingly that the FreeBSD and TrustedBSD developers are far more exploit immune than the Microsoft OS developers. Of course, it would be complete bullshit, but that's not the point. :-) > Not ranting/trolling. Thanks for the info, that is good. As I said, i > have not installed/configured it yet. I have been noticing feaping > creaturism in freebsd as of late so I was simply concerned about it. "Of late"? You've *JUST* noticed? Wow. :-) * - yes, I know. I expect this now to explode into a silly thread. People really should know better. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 20:30:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E6F16A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:30:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail9.atl.registeredsite.com (mail9.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B671643D3F for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:30:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from imta02a2.registeredsite.com (imta02a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.11])i5TKUOnq011637; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:30:24 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta02a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040629203023.VWEU4947.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com>; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:30:23 -0400 Message-ID: <40E1D15B.5040605@ofdengineering.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:30:19 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> <40E1B7A3.3040409@ofdengineering.com> <20040629201433.GV34683@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040629201433.GV34683@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:30:37 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 01:40:35PM -0500, Kevin Lyons wrote: > > >>Well, point being that more layers/lines of code added, the more >>potential vulnerabilities. > > > Myth. Which is more vulnerable to attack - the kernel that gets compiled > when you build GENERIC, or a few lines that strcpy's some input recieved > over a socket running as root? > > LOC is about as effective a measure of potential vulnerabilities as it is a > measure of how productive a developer is or the quality of the design > process - i.e. it's useless and the myth has been thrown around for god > knows how long by people who really should know better.* > > Well-written code is well-written, no matter how many lines long it is. > Ditto for badly-written code. I've seen 20-liners that could be broken by a > competent 13-year old, and 20,000-liners that were impregnable. I am not > alone. Hmmm, sounds like the exception that proves the rule. This is a nice argument, but with real world large projects, i.e. with all things being more-or-less equal, more (normal distribution quality i.e. AVG) code is more potential vulnerabilities. I (and microsoft no doubt) would love to hear of any proof that contradicts this apparent common sense construction. Is there an ACM or IEEE article that quantifies this? > >>I don't think we can say the FreeBSD or >>TrustedBSD developers are any more exploit immune than other folks. > > > Based on the number of security announcements over the last 5 years, I could > argue very convincingly that the FreeBSD and TrustedBSD developers are far > more exploit immune than the Microsoft OS developers. > > Of course, it would be complete bullshit, but that's not the point. :-) > >>Not ranting/trolling. Thanks for the info, that is good. As I said, i >>have not installed/configured it yet. I have been noticing feaping >>creaturism in freebsd as of late so I was simply concerned about it. > > > "Of late"? You've *JUST* noticed? Wow. :-) I will rephrase, I noticed enough to finally comment. > > * - yes, I know. I expect this now to explode into a silly thread. People > really should know better. > -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 20:35:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86E716A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:35:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE49B43D3F for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:35:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BfPL6-000HrW-2F; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:36:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 21:36:24 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Kevin Lyons Message-ID: <20040629203624.GW34683@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> <40E1B7A3.3040409@ofdengineering.com> <20040629201433.GV34683@iconoplex.co.uk> <40E1D15B.5040605@ofdengineering.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40E1D15B.5040605@ofdengineering.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:35:44 -0000 On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 03:30:19PM -0500, Kevin Lyons wrote: > Is there an ACM or IEEE article that quantifies this? You can not write an accurate assessment of potential vulnerabilites, only discovered ones. It does not take a genius to work out that it only takes one line of badly written code to introduce a vulnerability. It does not take a genius to realise that badly written code is as much a management issue as any other. It certainly does not take a genius to asset that well written code impregnable code is well written and impregnable no matter how many lines of code it is made up of. > >"Of late"? You've *JUST* noticed? Wow. :-) > > I will rephrase, I noticed enough to finally comment. Even so. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 20:45:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D45716A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:45:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (mail1.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B4143D54 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:45:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from imta01a2.registeredsite.com (imta01a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.10])i5TKiaYU027733; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:44:36 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta01a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040629204436.RVG4075.imta01a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com>; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:44:36 -0400 Message-ID: <40E1D4AF.9040909@ofdengineering.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:44:31 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E1B3B5.1020906@palisadesys.com> <40E1B7A3.3040409@ofdengineering.com> <20040629201433.GV34683@iconoplex.co.uk> <40E1D15B.5040605@ofdengineering.com> <20040629203624.GW34683@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040629203624.GW34683@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:45:00 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 03:30:19PM -0500, Kevin Lyons wrote: > > >>Is there an ACM or IEEE article that quantifies this? > > > You can not write an accurate assessment of potential vulnerabilites, only > discovered ones. Well then discovered vulnerabilities vs. code size? When one says something is a Myth, it is always nice to be able to prove why? > It does not take a genius to work out that it only takes one line of badly > written code to introduce a vulnerability. It does not take a genius to > realise that badly written code is as much a management issue as any other. Does it take a genius to realize the normal distribution and random coding errors by competent programmers occur all the time (even by security consiious programmers) and that the more code is written, therefore the probability of a vulnerability increases linearly? > It certainly does not take a genius to asset that well written code > impregnable code is well written and impregnable no matter how many lines of > code it is made up of. Given the perfect programmer that is a true statement. > > >>>"Of late"? You've *JUST* noticed? Wow. :-) >> >>I will rephrase, I noticed enough to finally comment. > > > Even so. :-) > -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 22:04:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA1816A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:04:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from regina.plastikos.com (216-107-106-250.wan.networktel.net [216.107.106.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C666343D46 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:04:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gh@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-150-243.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.150.243]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by regina.plastikos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A606EF07; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 18:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 1012) id A7CAD20F22; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:04:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:04:31 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Kurry" To: Kevin Lyons Message-ID: <20040629220431.GH30204@over-yonder.net> References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <6.1.0.6.1.20040629112919.03bcffc8@popserver.sfu.ca> <40E1C0F7.7050105@ofdengineering.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40E1C0F7.7050105@ofdengineering.com> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i-fullermd.2 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:04:52 -0000 Kevin Lyons said something like: > Some of them are not esoteric. So, following the current logic, I guess > we'll have more "jails" for jail and more wrappers for wrapper :) ? > Presumably FreeBSD r-eng runs some kind of audit on port source like > that mentioned in "Building Secure Software". Maybe that audit process > should be improved rather than trying to add more layers of paint to > fill in the cracks (proverbial)? Kevin, I believe this is the point in the thread where someone scolds you for not posting patches (or offering more concrete suggestions). Just a heads up. Dan > -- > Kevin Lyons From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 00:24:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4187F16A4CE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:24:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (mail-in-03.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D74E43D31 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:24:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-082-082-076-226.arcor-ip.net [82.82.76.226]) by mail-in-03.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209A2C4392E for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5U0NEsI066167 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:23:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i5U0NBLp066166 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 02:23:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:23:10 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:24:07 -0000 Kevin Lyons wrote: > Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is > cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make exploits ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > near impossible. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Er, what? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 14:01:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4201416A4CF for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:01:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from web21001.mail.yahoo.com (web21001.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BBDD43D46 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:01:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vthorma@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040630140044.78387.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.76.1.122] by web21001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:00:44 PDT Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:00:44 -0700 (PDT) From: von thorma To: naddy@mips.inka.de In-Reply-To: <40E2BF20.9060607@ofdengineering.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Random stack X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:01:20 -0000 > > Is this the right way to go? We're adding more > bloat while openbsd is > > cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory > allocation to make exploits > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > near impossible. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Er, what? They have randomized the location in memory where the software will place the stack by adding a randomly sized gap at the top of the stack. Next, they altered the way addresses are stored within the stack and added a way to detect attacks on the stack. They did this by putting buffers closer to the return addresses in the stack, resulting in lower flags and pointers, making them harder for a hacker to hit. The attack detection was accomplished by adding a “canary” that will indicate whether any addresses have been altered. They also broke main memory into two pieces. The first one is devoted to executing code and the second one is isolated as a writable section. The assignment of all pages to one section or another means that no page will be both writable and executable at the same time. > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber > naddy@mips.inka.de > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 14:49:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D8D16A4CE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:49:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fallback-mx1.atl.registeredsite.com (fallback-mx1.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.95]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5958B43D41 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:49:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from mail9.atl.registeredsite.com (mail9.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.83])i5UCioET013784 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:44:50 GMT Received: from imta06a2.registeredsite.com (imta06a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.15])i5UCiJZZ019019; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:44:19 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta06a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040630124419.USRH4212.imta06a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com>; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:44:19 -0400 Message-ID: <40E2B59F.5040004@ofdengineering.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:44:15 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel M. Kurry" References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <6.1.0.6.1.20040629112919.03bcffc8@popserver.sfu.ca> <40E1C0F7.7050105@ofdengineering.com> <20040629220431.GH30204@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20040629220431.GH30204@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:49:40 -0000 Daniel M. Kurry wrote: > Kevin Lyons said something like: > >>Some of them are not esoteric. So, following the current logic, I guess >>we'll have more "jails" for jail and more wrappers for wrapper :) ? >>Presumably FreeBSD r-eng runs some kind of audit on port source like >>that mentioned in "Building Secure Software". Maybe that audit process >>should be improved rather than trying to add more layers of paint to >>fill in the cracks (proverbial)? > > > Kevin, I believe this is the point in the thread where someone scolds > you for not posting patches (or offering more concrete suggestions). Is the last line not concrete-enough? You are right. If I don't like the system, I should re-write it myself. If somebody out there thinks that adding more layers of bugged security features is the wrong way to go, and beats me to it, then that is great. Otherwise, we'll be waiting a while for my patches :). > Just a heads up. > > Dan > > >>-- >>Kevin Lyons > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 14:56:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B76016A4CE; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:56:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.star-sw.com (mail.star-sw.com [217.195.82.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A9943D1D; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:55:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nkritsky@star-sw.com) Received: from ARGON.star-sw.com (argon.star-sw.com [217.195.82.10]) by mail.star-sw.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i5UEtVYB077451; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:55:31 +0400 (MSD) Received: from ibmka.star-sw.com ([192.168.32.130]) by ARGON.star-sw.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:55:31 +0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 18:55:31 +0400 From: "Nickolay A. Kritsky" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) Personal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <117790006093.20040630185531@star-sw.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Sender: "Nickolay A. Kritsky" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jun 2004 14:55:31.0719 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A506970:01C45EB2] cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org Subject: visiting Crna Gora X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Nickolay A. Kritsky" List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:56:00 -0000 This is summer off-topic post. If you would like to reply on-list, plesae remove -security from cc: Hello all the freebsd hackers/users/developers, I am planning to visit Montenegro aka Crna Gora in mid-July. Even sysadmin should have vacations :) I am pretty sure that there are a lot of c00l FreeBSD admins, running complicated network routers on old PCs around there. Please, if you know somebody who can rent a room/small appartment in coast area for a reasonable fee, please let me know about that. Also, if you want to drink beer and talk about mystery of ip_input.c, packet processing order, future of vlan technology and gigabit routing on FreeBSD [, etc ] - why don't we do it?! I am not subscribed to this list, so please reply me directly, or cc: me with -chat PS: has anybody tried intel's 4x100 Mbit quad NICs on FreeBSD? Any problems with them? -- Best regards, ; Nickolay A. Kritsky ; SysAdmin STAR Software LLC ; mailto:nkritsky@star-sw.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 15:05:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EDF416A4CF for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:05:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fallback-mx2.atl.registeredsite.com (fallback-mx2.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.96]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EECC43D48 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:05:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com) Received: from mail4.atl.registeredsite.com (mail4.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.78])i5UCqv2x030207 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:52:57 GMT Received: from imta02a2.registeredsite.com (imta02a2.registeredsite.com [64.225.255.11])i5UCqQTZ014656; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:52:26 GMT Received: from ofdengineering.com ([66.137.123.97]) by imta02a2.registeredsite.com with ESMTP <20040630125226.FPRQ4947.imta02a2.registeredsite.com@ofdengineering.com>; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:52:26 -0400 Message-ID: <40E2B786.8030005@ofdengineering.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:52:22 -0500 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:05:05 -0000 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Kevin Lyons wrote: > > >>Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is >>cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make exploits > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >>near impossible. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Er, what? Er, read the following (from http://www.openbsd.org/security.html). I believe they've been doing the random malloc/mmap since 3.4. Almost a year ago. 1) "As we audit source code, we often invent new ways of solving problems. Sometimes these ideas have been used before in some random application written somewhere, but perhaps not taken to the degree that we do. * strlcpy() and strlcat() * Memory protection purify o W^X o .rodata segment o Guard pages o Randomized malloc() o Randomized mmap() o atexit() and stdio protection * Privilege seperation * Privilege revocation * Chroot jailing * New uids * ProPolice * ... and others " 2) If that is not clear enough... from http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1111894,00.asp OpenBSD 3.3 adds page-level memory permissions (on SPARC, Alpha and PA-RISC CPUs) that mark each memory page as either writable or executable (but not both at once), to make it harder for an attacker to write attack code into a memory location and execute it. Unfortunately, this feature isn't provided on x86 or PowerPC chips yet, although it's planned for the OpenBSD 3.4 release. The OpenBSD project has made a decision against trusted-operating-system-style mandatory access controls that place kernel-enforced limits on what particular processes or users can do. "People who use such things build systems which cannot be administered later," said Theo de Raadt, OpenBSD project leader, in Calgary, Alberta. "I am holding the fort against such complexity." -- Kevin Lyons OFD Engineering, 950 Threadneedle Suite 250, Houston Texas 77079 Phone: 281-679-9060, ext. 118, E-mail: kevin_lyons@ofdengineering.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 21:52:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810B016A4CE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:52:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wonkity.com (wonkity.com [65.173.111.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A56B43D58 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:52:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from wonkity.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wonkity.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i5ULqiB9026419; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:52:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from localhost (wblock@localhost) by wonkity.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id i5ULqiwR026416; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:52:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:52:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Warren Block To: Kevin Stevens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040630154000.S26326@wonkity.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.3 (wonkity.com [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:52:44 -0600 (MDT) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Beastie makes a cameo appearance on apple.com. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:52:51 -0000 (Forwarded from -questions) On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Kevin Stevens wrote: > Apple just announced their next OS X release "Tiger", today. While > browsing through the features, I noticed a Beastie icon nodding > approvingly at the paragraph on the new FreeBSD 5.x -based kernel: > > http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/unix.html But what about Mach? Did they just throw it out because 5.x offered everything they needed? -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 30 23:46:46 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A80F16A4CE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (mail-in-05.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CBE43D41 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:46:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-082-083-167-018.arcor-ip.net [82.83.167.18]) by mail-in-05.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70371AD571B for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:46:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5UNkeaX009190 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:46:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i5UNkemb009189 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:46:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:46:39 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <40E1A6C0.2040406@ofdengineering.com> <40E2B786.8030005@ofdengineering.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "TrustedBSD" addons X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:46:46 -0000 Kevin Lyons wrote: > >>Is this the right way to go? We're adding more bloat while openbsd is > >>cleaning itself and reworking kernal memory allocation to make exploits > >>near impossible. > > > > Er, what? > > Er, read the following (from http://www.openbsd.org/security.html). Oh, that. I interpreted "kernel memory allocation" as a reference to malloc(9) etc and was wondering whether I had missed any developments... -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 1 23:15:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA5516A4CE for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:15:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bc13.standardservices.com (bc13.bellevuellc.com [66.37.227.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 60F3743D2F for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:15:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bounce-gibbs_brad-29422643@bc13.standardservices.com) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:10:01 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "NW Gibbs and Bradner" Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Is there a little devil on the way? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Gibbs and Bradner Help List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:15:18 -0000 NETWORK WORLD NEWSLETTER: GIBBS & BRADNER 07/01/04 Dear freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, In this issue: * Net Insider columnist Scott Bradner discusses copyright   infringement legislation * Links related to Gibbs & Bradner * Featured reader resource _______________________________________________________________ This newsletter is sponsored by AlterPoint, Inc. Free IT Business Brief on Network Change and Configuration Management Network Change and Configuration Management (NCCM) is a must-have for enterprises looking for full control and manageability over their expanding network environments. This IT Business Brief, "Making the Case for NCCM" discusses the business value of NCCM and outlines how to create a business case for the deployment of NCCM. Download your copy today! http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=65631 _______________________________________________________________ NW SPECIAL REPORTS Focused reports on compelling industry topics, Network World Special Reports are available online at Network World Fusion. Download any or all of our Special Reports on topics such as strategies for performance management, trends in the networked world and more at: http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=64846 _______________________________________________________________ Today's focus: Is there a little devil on the way? By Scott Bradner Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) last week introduced legislation called the Inducing Infringement of Copyrights Act of 2004 ( ) just before press time. This follows a leak two weeks ago of an earlier version of the bill that is quite a piece of work if you read it literally. But I wonder if that's what we're supposed to do. The leaked version, which went by the name of the Inducement Devolves into Unlawful Child Exploitation Act ( ) of 2004, had some people active in the copyright debate going ballistic. It's easy to see why. The core of the act, at least in the early version (I haven't had access to the actual bill yet), extends the definition of a copyright infringer to "whoever intentionally induces any violation" of copyright laws. It says: "intentionally induces means intentionally aids, abets, induces, counsels or procures, and intent may be shown by acts from which a reasonable person would find intent to induce infringement based upon all relevant information about such acts then reasonably available to the actor, including whether the activity relies on infringement for its commercial viability." Read literally, this could mean that anyone selling a product that could be used to infringe copyright would be guilty of infringement. Hatch is from Utah and parts of Utah are quite stark and empty (and beautiful as I can attest), but I doubt that none of his constituents use the Internet or own PCs, copiers, scanners, cameras, VCRs, TiVo, portable music players, paper, pens or pencils. Since all of these could be used to make illegal copies of copyrighted material under the literal wording of this bill, anyone selling any of these could be guilty of copyright infringement. This could get a bit dicey for Intel, Microsoft and pencil makers. (By the way, there is a neat Web site all about pencils at .) This is not the first time Hatch has come up with half- or quarter-baked anti-copyright infringement ideas ( ). It is entirely believable that he would introduce a bill like this even though at best this bill looks like it was written by the teenage kid of a movie studio executive who was trying to protect his inheritance. But maybe the draft of the bill has served its purpose already. Maybe its only purpose was to be leaked just to set off a cacophony of outrage and scorn. Maybe Hatch thinks he can introduce a somewhat less wacko bill that will sail through because it looks so good in comparison. Conjuring up a bogeyman then killing it off as a way to distract people while you sneak a little devil into the room is not a new concept. If that's what Hatch is doing, then we need to be on the lookout for the little devil. It should be showing up any day now. Disclaimer: Cacophony at Harvard is hardly new, but the above addition to the Induce cacophony is mine, not the university's. _______________________________________________________________ To contact: Scott Bradner Bradner is a consultant with Harvard University's University Information Systems. He can be reached at _______________________________________________________________ This newsletter is sponsored by AlterPoint, Inc. Free IT Business Brief on Network Change and Configuration Management Network Change and Configuration Management (NCCM) is a must-have for enterprises looking for full control and manageability over their expanding network environments. This IT Business Brief, "Making the Case for NCCM" discusses the business value of NCCM and outlines how to create a business case for the deployment of NCCM. Download your copy today! http://www.fattail.com/redir/redirect.asp?CID=65631 _______________________________________________________________ ARCHIVE LINKS Gibbs archive: http://www.nwfusion.com/columnists/gibbs.html Bradner archive: http://www.nwfusion.com/columnists/bradner.html _______________________________________________________________ FEATURED READER RESOURCE TESTING VOLUNTEERS NEEDED Network World is looking for enterprise networks to be a part of a test to be conducted on: security appliances with firewall, IPS, VPN and policy-based management features. Requirements: a T-1 Internet connection AND 10-200 users sitting behind security device AND a willingness to let a security consultant assist in appliance management. Contact Christine Burns at: mailto:cburns@nww.com _______________________________________________________________ May We Send You a Free Print Subscription? You've got the technology snapshot of your choice delivered at your fingertips each day. Now, extend your knowledge by receiving 51 FREE issues to our print publication. Apply today at International subscribers click here: _______________________________________________________________ SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES To subscribe or unsubscribe to any Network World e-mail newsletters, go to: To unsubscribe from promotional e-mail go to: To change your e-mail address, go to: Subscription questions? Contact Customer Service by replying to this message. This message was sent to: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Please use this address when modifying your subscription. _______________________________________________________________ Have editorial comments? Write Jeff Caruso, Newsletter Editor, at: Inquiries to: NL Customer Service, Network World, Inc., 118 Turnpike Road, Southborough, MA 01772 For advertising information, write Kevin Normandeau, V.P. of Online Development, at: Copyright Network World, Inc., 2004 ------------------------ This message was sent to: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 1 14:25:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68ED016A4CE for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:25:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from marvin.muc.de (marvin.muc.de [193.149.48.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E7C343D1D for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:25:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mod-submit@uni-berlin.de) Received: (qmail 63404 invoked by alias); 1 Jul 2004 14:24:49 -0000 Delivered-To: mods-muc-lists-freebsd-chat@moderators.muc.de Received: (qmail 63397 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 14:24:49 -0000 Received: from mail.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.2) by marvin.muc.de with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 14:24:49 -0000 Received: by Mail.FU-Berlin.DE (Exim 4.34) from curry.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([160.45.10.36]) for muc-lists-freebsd-chat@moderators.muc.de with esmtp id <1Bg2Ua-0003Ph-LY>; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:24:48 +0200 Received: by Curry.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (Smail3.2.0.98) from news.uni-berlin.de with bsmtp id ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:24:48 +0200 (MEST) To: muc-lists-freebsd-chat@moderators.muc.de Path: not-for-mail From: bjoern koenig Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.chat Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:25:06 +0200 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2kil5gF2q6tlU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <20040630154000.S26326@wonkity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orig-X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de dNTpkn8jG5fLyO91AyNhqQt2CFwGzNnvgJTUh7NMwRr+j2YoEy3JFS6G3i User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <20040630154000.S26326@wonkity.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:50:09 +0000 Subject: Re: OT: Beastie makes a cameo appearance on apple.com. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:25:38 -0000 Warren Block wrote: > But what about Mach? Did they just throw it out because 5.x offered > everything they needed? FreeBSD elements were always components of Mac OS X, even a lot of latest 4.x versions. So Apple wrote "The upgraded kernel, based on FreeBSD 5.x, [...]", not that they replaced their old mach kernel. And this is yet another nice line with exactly sixtysix characters Bjoern From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:26:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2461216A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:26:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC4B43D2F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:26:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-CONNECT@lists.fdncenter.org) Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i629p5YH013560 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021524.i629p5YH013560@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:42 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor X-LSV-ListID: CONNECT Subject: You are now subscribed to Connections X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: CONNECT-request@lists.fdncenter.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:26:40 -0000 Welcome to Connections, a new bi-weekly newsletter created by the editors of Philanthropy News Digest! As a member of the list, you'll receive an e-mail digest chock-full of stimulating content and links to the best philanthropy-related resources on the Web every other Wednesday. Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you've subscribed to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you'll find the necessary instructions below. 1. To leave the list at any time, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG with the words SIGNOFF Connect in the body of your message. 2. To rejoin the list at any time, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG with the words SUBSCRIBE Connect in the body of the message. If you have a question or would like more information about the list, send an e-mail to the list administrator at: JLF@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:26:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22CE16A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:26:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9819E43D2D for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:26:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-JOB-ALERT@lists.fdncenter.org) Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i62DknoD012706 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021524.i62DknoD012706@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:42 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor X-LSV-ListID: JOB-ALERT Subject: You are now subscribed to the JOB-ALERT list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: JOB-ALERT-request@lists.fdncenter.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:26:43 -0000 Welcome to the JOB-ALERT (Job Corner Alert) e-mail list! As a member of the list, you'll receive weekly notification of new nonprofit sector jobs posted to the Job Corner in Philanthropy News Digest (http://fdncenter.org/pnd/jobs/). Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you have subscribed to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you'll find the necessary instructions below. 1. To leave the list at any time, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG with the words SIGNOFF JOB-ALERT in the body of your message. 2. To rejoin the list at any time, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG with the words SUBSCRIBE JOB-ALERT in the body of the message. If you have a question or would like more information about the list, send an e-mail to the list administrator at: MFN@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:27:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823C416A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2719A43D1D for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from "") Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i629p5Y5013560 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021524.i629p5Y5013560@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:43 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor Subject: Re: Subscription Add/Delete X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:27:54 -0000 > SUBSCRIBE pnd-l FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the PND-L list. > SUBSCRIBE rfp-bulletin FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the RFP-BULLETIN list. > SUBSCRIBE job-alert FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the JOB-ALERT list. > SUBSCRIBE Connect FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the CONNECT list. > SUBSCRIBE fdncenter-l FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the FDNCENTER-L list. > SUBSCRIBE FC-DClib FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the FC-DCLIB list. > SUBSCRIBE FC-Sflib FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the FC-SFLIB list. > SUBSCRIBE FC-Atlib FC Web Site Visitor You have been added to the FC-ATLIB list. Summary of resource utilization ------------------------------- CPU time: 0.250 sec Overhead CPU: 0.370 sec CPU model: 2-CPU Ultra-60 Job origin: freebsd-chat@FREEBSD.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:27:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9AB16A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF94043D2F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-FC-DCLIB@lists.fdncenter.org) Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i629p5Y9013560 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021524.i629p5Y9013560@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:42 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor X-LSV-ListID: FC-DCLIB Subject: You are now subscribed to the FC-DCLIB list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FC-DCLIB-request@lists.fdncenter.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:27:55 -0000 Welcome to the Foundation Center's FC-DCLIB listserv! 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If you have a question about your subscription, send an e-mail to the list administrator at: DCBroadcast@fdncenter.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:28:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0115B16A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B142943D2F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-FC-ATLIB@lists.fdncenter.org) Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i629p5YN013560 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021525.i629p5YN013560@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:43 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor X-LSV-ListID: FC-ATLIB Subject: You are now subscribed to the FC-ATLIB list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FC-ATLIB-request@lists.fdncenter.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:28:16 -0000 Welcome to the Foundation Center's FC-ATLIB listserv! 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If you have a question about your subscription, send an e-mail to the list administrator at: kfb@fdncenter.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:28:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFF316A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2BC43D2F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-PND-L@lists.fdncenter.org) Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i62Dkno3012706 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021524.i62Dkno3012706@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:42 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor X-LSV-ListID: PND-L Subject: You are now subscribed to the PND-L list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: PND-L-request@lists.fdncenter.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:28:18 -0000 Welcome to the PND-L (Philanthropy News Digest) mailing list! 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If you have a question or would like more information about the list, send an e-mail to the list administrator at: MFN@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:28:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6E016A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8C543D53 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:28:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-FDNCENTER-L@lists.fdncenter.org) Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i629p5YD013560 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021524.i629p5YD013560@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:24:42 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor X-LSV-ListID: FDNCENTER-L Subject: You are now subscribed to the FDNCENTER-L list X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: FDNCENTER-L-request@lists.fdncenter.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:28:20 -0000 Welcome to the FDNCENTER-L (Foundation Center) mailing list! 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If you have a question or would like more information about the list, send an e-mail to the list administrator at: MFN@LISTS.FDNCENTER.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:34:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9324F16A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:34:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03BA743D2D for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:34:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from "") Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i62Dknon012706 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021533.i62Dknon012706@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:33:03 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor Subject: Re: out! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:34:02 -0000 > SIGNOFF Connect You have been removed from the CONNECT list. Summary of resource utilization ------------------------------- CPU time: 0.040 sec Overhead CPU: 0.010 sec CPU model: 2-CPU Ultra-60 Job origin: freebsd-chat@FREEBSD.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:41:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD65316A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:41:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from 8057www0.nyc2.aens.net (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9B543D1D for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:41:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from "") Received: from list.fdncenter.org (8057www0.nyc2.aens.net [63.240.17.194]) i629p5aD013560 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200407021539.i629p5aD013560@8057www0.nyc2.aens.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:39:21 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at The Foundation Center (1.8e)" To: FC Web Site Visitor Subject: Re: no more spam! X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:41:03 -0000 > SIGNOFF JOB-ALERT You have been removed from the JOB-ALERT list. > SIGNOFF FC-DCLIB You have been removed from the FC-DCLIB list. > SIGNOFF FC-ATLIB You have been removed from the FC-ATLIB list. > SIGNOFF PND-L You have been removed from the PND-L list. > SIGNOFF FDNCENTER-L You have been removed from the FDNCENTER-L list. Summary of resource utilization ------------------------------- CPU time: 0.420 sec Overhead CPU: 0.100 sec CPU model: 2-CPU Ultra-60 Job origin: freebsd-chat@FREEBSD.ORG From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 01:55:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430C516A4D1 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:55:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lists.surfnetkids.com (lists.surfnetkids.com [140.239.169.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF51743D5F for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:55:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bounce-30051-334336@lists.surfnetkids.com) Message-Id: X-lyris-type: unsub-conf-req From: "Lyris ListManager" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:54:47 -0400 Subject: Your confirmation is needed (ok 334336) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Lyris ListManager List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:55:21 -0000 Your email address 'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org' has been submitted to be unsubscribed from the 'surfnetkids' mailing list. This unsubscribe command requires your confirmation that you want to be unsubscribed. To confirm that you do want to unsubscribe, reply to this message so that the words "ok 334336" appear somewhere on the subject line. Make sure that your reply message is addressed to unsubscribe-confirm@lists.surfnetkids.com You will receive notification that your confirmation has been received, and that you have been unsubscribed. If you do not want to unsubscribe, do nothing. You will be kept on the mailing list. --- Return-Path: Received: from mx2.freebsd.org ([216.136.204.119]) by lists.surfnetkids.com with SMTP (Lyris ListManager WIN32 version 7.8d); Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:54:47 -0400 Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D0A555D2 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:54:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dhw@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 674) id CB5BA16A4CF; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:54:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:54:42 -0700 From: Postmaster To: surfnetkids-request Subject: Message-ID: <20040703015442.GA56649@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i # Mail sent to leave-surfnetkids-334336r was converted to these commands: unsubscribe end # This is the text of the message that triggered the action: Return-Path: Received: from mx2.freebsd.org ([216.136.204.119]) by lists.surfnetkids.com with SMTP (Lyris ListManager WIN32 version 7.8d); Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:54:47 -0400 Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D0A555D2 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:54:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dhw@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 674) id CB5BA16A4CF; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:54:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:54:42 -0700 From: Postmaster To: leave-surfnetkids-334336R@lists.surfnetkids.com Subject: stop the spam Message-ID: <20040703015442.GA56649@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Some twit is abusing your service to subscribe FreeBSD.org mailing lists to your newsletter(s). It woudl be helpful if you would make the process more resistant to such abuse. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 02:29:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D956716A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:29:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5900943D41 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:29:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([64.230.30.218]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040703022949.TOZT26030.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:29:49 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:31:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040702223027.W564@dru.domain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) (fwd) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:29:51 -0000 As suggested, this thread is being moved to chat. All comments/suggestions/rants regarding a BSD training curriculum most appreciated. Please cc me in any replies... Dru ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:16:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Dru To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Bill Vermillion wrote: > I've been an outside consultant where a company hired a new grad > and sent them off to a school to learn what they needed. None of > them seemed to understand the system - just how to do certain > things. I think it's a symptom of the modern education systems > where people are taught to pass tests and are not educated in > the field of their choice. And modern education systems are getting worse, not better. Since I entered the training scene in 1997, I've seen 3 year curriculums get cut down to 4 months. Government programs, scholarships, and bursary programs slashed down to pittances. Apparantly, IT isn't as hot as it used to be. Worse, many who are hiring prefer someone with only 4 months of training and a superficial understanding of what they're being paid to do. That way they'll follow their scripts unquestioningly and not complain at being paid $10 an hour. I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, thought provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to hash it out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this thread? Dru _______________________________________________ freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-jobs To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-jobs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 04:02:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33AB16A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 04:02:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wingfoot.org (caduceus.wingfoot.org [64.32.179.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A0143D5D for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 04:02:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ges@wingfoot.org) Received: from localhost (localhost.wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0951F44B9; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wingfoot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (caduceus.wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79721-07; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ool-44c47f78.dyn.optonline.net [68.196.127.120]) by wingfoot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A1C1F44B8; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40E62FCD.40300@wingfoot.org> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:02:21 -0400 From: Glenn Sieb User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (Windows/20040626) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200407020926.31217@cmav> <20040702232425.GB11501@wjv.com> <20040702220305.O564@dru.domain.org> In-Reply-To: <20040702220305.O564@dru.domain.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wingfoot.org cc: Dru cc: tibor@tibor.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:02:51 -0000 Dru said the following on 7/2/2004 10:16 PM: > And modern education systems are getting worse, not better. Since I > entered the training scene in 1997, I've seen 3 year curriculums get > cut down to 4 months. Government programs, scholarships, and bursary > programs slashed down to pittances. Apparantly, IT isn't as hot as it > used to be. Worse, many who are hiring prefer someone with only 4 > months of training and a superficial understanding of what they're > being paid to do. That way they'll follow their scripts > unquestioningly and not complain at being paid $10 an hour. I knew a guy back in the mid 90s who, while on Unemployment, decided to go to some training and become an MCSE. Of course, NJ Unemployment only cared about the *placement* rate the schools had, not whether they were worth their salt. So he got his MCSE, and landed a job working 50+ hours a week, tied to a pager 24x7 for a whole $25,000 a year. In metropolitan NJ. I had even advised him about how much an MCSE would add to his worth, and such, but he was offered the job and had to accept it (back then they had very totalitarian rules about such things with Unemployment in NJ). And he justified it by saying he had no experience anyway. Even though he aced all his tests. And yes, I know, book learning <> real world. But the fact that he _aced_ them counts for something. He hadn't passed by the skin of his teeth like a lot of people who go to such classes do. He bothered to actually play with the OS and learn it in addition to what he was doing in class. I lost track of him soon after he started his new job. I often wonder how he turned out--did he succeed or did he burn out? :-/. > I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality > BSD training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, > thought provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the > place to hash it out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to > continue on this thread? I, for one, would love to partake. I'm no you or Tom Limoncelli or Greg Lehey, but I can hopefully share what I've learned over the past few years, both at Lumeta, and on the experiences I've had on my personal server. :) As the old saying goes.. "Hey! It's another learning experience!" :) And--by the way--*kudos* on the new book! I've been a fan of your OnLamp series for a while now, and was waiting for this book with baited breath! :) Very nice job indeed! [In case you missed it, Dru's _BSD Hacks_ was recently released by O'Reilly!] Best, Glenn -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 (Remember--July 30th is System Administrator Appreciation Day! http://www.sysadminday.com/ Wishlists at http://www.wingfoot.org/~ges/) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 10:06:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F133216A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (ns0.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D53843D41 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:06:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:::1])i63A6eAb000442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:06:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost)id i63A6dNN000441; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:06:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:06:39 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman To: Dru Message-ID: <20040703100639.GA99779@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Dru , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20040702223027.W564@dru.domain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040702223027.W564@dru.domain.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Greylist: Message not sent from an IPv4 address, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.3 (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [0.0.0.0]); Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:06:41 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version devel-20040612, clamav-milter version 0.72a on smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) (fwd) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:06:48 -0000 --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 10:31:50PM -0400, Dru wrote: > I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD= =20 > training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, thought= =20 > provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to hash i= t=20 > out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this thread? Count me in. This is something I've thought about off and on, but never to the extent of coming up with any concrete proposals. I did come to the conclusion that the best way for the FreeBSD project to institute a worthwhile qualification -- one that employers would find credible and trust meant the person with it actually did know their stuff -- would be to get a University or similar institution to issue a certificate or diploma as part of an "External Studies" program. I don't know how well that translates outside the UK, but here most Universities run evening or other short courses as a service to the local communities. These vary from "just for fun" to seriously academic stuff. Here, for example is what my Alma Mata provides: http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/cpd/ Cheers, Matthew PS. See also: an interuniversity scheme between Oxford, Yale and Stanford, which could do with a bit more weight on the Scientific/Technical side: http://www.alllearn.org/ --=20 Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFA5oUviD657aJF7eIRAvWaAJ0dypBh+Q8DGA+l58iXeiEpZ81kEACcCQSA AJ/eFzyqQdYu4vMy8tNjbmY= =qi3T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 20:22:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BE116A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:22:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADF543D5D for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:22:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1Bgr2K-000N9c-1A; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:23:00 +0100 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:23:00 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Dru Message-ID: <20040703202300.GI43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040702223027.W564@dru.domain.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040702223027.W564@dru.domain.org> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) (fwd) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:22:14 -0000 On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 10:31:50PM -0400, Dru wrote: > As suggested, this thread is being moved to chat. All > comments/suggestions/rants regarding a BSD training curriculum most > appreciated. Please cc me in any replies... Sorry, I missed this before posting back to -jobs. Apologies. My post to -jobs can come here then: Oh, this old chestnut. This has been bashed out before. There are a lot of major issues here. My day job actually involves e-learning, accreditation, etc. and I know more about pedagogical analysis and how it relates to work-based continual professional development than I want to. The fact that I just wrote that paragraph proves it. Anyway, a wiki is better for modelling what people want and captures requirements into something useable, I think. I've started something at the link below, just with my initial thoughts, please edit it, change it, add to it, see what we get out of the other side: http://vagueware.com/Open_Training and the discussion could happen here: http://vagueware.com/Talk:Open_Training Trust me, if this just goes on and on in a mailing list, nothing will happen. It almost did a year or so ago, but failed. At least this way with some work we can put together a real plan on how to make this happen, and then we can go out and do it. Like one of the VagueWare.com slogans says, with a lot of really hard work, one day it could become vaporware. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/