From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 06:37:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9A716A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:37:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5798D43D41 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:37:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9V6agY15132; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:37:03 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 2:38 PM > To: tedm@toybox.placo.com; chat@freebsd.org > Cc: TM4525@aol.com > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > > That is one of the arguments. But, the GPL is concerned with > > distribution. > > I think this has been raised before with them. I think that > the scenario > > was, if I make a program that dynamically links into GPL, then I > > distribute > > both my program and the GPL code that it links into, do I have to put my > > program under GPL? I think their answer was yes - they argued that when > > the linking takes place and who links it is immaterial, and > that the fact > > that your program cannot run without their stuff means that > when your code > > is running, that your program and their stuff become as a > single program. > > This argument is obviously, IMO, absurd. Suppose I make a > product that > *can* link to a GPL'd library but could, of course, also link to any other > library that provided the same interface. The FSF is arguing that > as soon as > somebody links it to the GPL'd library, it becomes a derived work even > though it wasn't one before. > No, they are arguing that the RESULT of the linking becomes a derived work, NOT the original, unlinked work itself. This is a fine line here, and one that is more of a legal argument than anything else. I think the idea of it goes something along these lines. Suppose you distribute a non-functional program along with instructions that to make it functional, the user must fetch some GPL program and link that in. No problem there. But then suppose you distribute the same program along with the GPL program and a set of instructions the user must follow to build it, and to get it running. One again, no problem there. But then, suppose you distribute your program AND the GPL program AND when your program is run, it automatically pulls in the GPL program and links into it and does it's thing. THAT I think is where they are arguing that your crossing the line. >From one view of things, they do have a point - as your third distribution is in effect a way to dodge the effects of the GPL. But of course from a strict copyright interpretation point of view, I think that this is the weakest argument the FSF is making about the GPL because I think the history of court cases of these nature has shown that courts generally say that even when code is intermixed, that each entity retains it's own copyright. > Nothing that you can do with a work after it's produced can > turn that work > into a derivative work of another work. That isn't and wasn't ever the point. Your "you" here is the secondary user not the original author. The example I gave was that the "you" was the original coder/copyright holder. > > Even if the program had been designed from the beginning to > work with an > interface that was currently only implemented in a GPL'd library, I would > still find the argument absurd (though slightly less so). Once again, I've said it several times before but you don't seem to get it, so I'll say it again. The GPL is concerned with DISTRIBUTION -not- MANUFACTURE. If you design a program from the beginning that works with an interface only implemented in a GPL library, then there is NO problem if that code is NOT GPL'd, AS LONG AS you aren't distributing a compiled version of it that links in the GPL library. If the end users -must- go compile in some GPL code that is perfectly fine as long as THEY have to consciously choose to do it, NOT YOU (or your program). > > I can't imagine that anyone who understood what it is that > grants you a > copyright and what a 'derivative' work really is would find this > argument at > all persuasive. > You know I said this already on Tuesday, the GPL is concerned with REDISTRIBUTION not COPYRIGHT. Why do you insist in ignoring this? You know, I really find this to be extremely ironic. I am a big opponent of the GPL license and always have been. But I find myself playing devils advocate here for the GPL because so many of you who should damn well know better quite obviously don't know the first damn thing about the GPL. Clue phone ringing here! DON'T TRY ARGUING AGAINST SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT. If you thing the GPL is a pile of poop, as I do, THEN LEARN THE DAMN THING BETTER THAN MOST OF THE GPL ADVOCATES OUT THERE. Trust me, IT AIN'T HARD!! 95% of the GPL advocates out there don't know the first damn thing about the GPL and undoubtedly have never completely read through the thing, MUCH LESS have read the supporting philosophy and writing around it. I see GPL bigots ALL THE TIME arguing about how great GPL code is and how the GPL is so all fired wonderful because of this and that which isn't even IN the damn license!!! Read the GPL. Read the FSF's website and RMS's writings. Read the BSD copyright. THEN if you want to go bash the GPL please do so!!! Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 06:47:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F1EC16A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:47:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D258443D1D for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:47:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9V6krY15161; Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:46:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brett Glass" , , Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:46:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041029235332.0532be08@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 06:47:07 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 10:57 PM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt; davids@webmaster.com; chat@freebsd.org > Cc: TM4525@aol.com > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > Stallman loves to say, "Gotcha!" You obviously never heard of this, then: ftp://sunrise.ipinc.net/pub/why-cooperation-with-rms-is-impossible.mp3 (http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.html) This one isn't much better, though: http://www.jonobacon.org/music/solo/jonobacon-freesoftwaresong.mp3 Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 09:59:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7A516A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:59:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42C043D48 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:59:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1754D36699; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:59:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:59:26 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Message-Id: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.12-gtk2-20040918 (GTK+ 2.4.9; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_10_59_26_+0100_7x4V0i=joOyJCxjd" cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:59:34 -0000 --Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_10_59_26_+0100_7x4V0i=joOyJCxjd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:36:42 -0700 "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote: Guys, > 95% of the GPL advocates out there don't know the first damn thing > about the GPL and undoubtedly have never completely read through > the thing, MUCH LESS have read the supporting philosophy and writing > around it. I see GPL bigots ALL THE TIME arguing about how great > GPL code is and how the GPL is so all fired wonderful because of this > and that which isn't even IN the damn license!!! I don't know if you're aware of this, but this kind is *useless* discussion has been going on on the mailing lists for *years*. Check groups.google.com and you'll see that everything you might want to add about GPL vs BSD has already been said a hundred times. John Dyson posted a lot about it, then Brett Glass did for a while, and now you. If the time wasted on these rants had gone into writing software we'd have a 100% BSDL system today. My very humble suggestion is that you please take this somewhere else. I've never seen a GPL advocate 'see the light' and start licensing his software under the BSD license after having a conversation with a BSD 'zealot', or vice versa. /me goes back to lurking... Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 Note: All HTML mail goes to /dev/null --Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_10_59_26_+0100_7x4V0i=joOyJCxjd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBhLeBnLctrNyFFPERAspAAJ4mR9kJrv2C2BO0rX8MMk/8tKa1/gCggjNq Vy3ldnuZTjEn8qCP95y3Q30= =SRl7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_10_59_26_+0100_7x4V0i=joOyJCxjd-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 10:13:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB8C16A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:13:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from cmsout03.mbox.net (cmsout03.mbox.net [165.212.64.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A89743D31 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:13:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from misnagid@usa.net) Received: (qmail 8381 invoked from network); 31 Oct 2004 10:13:05 -0000 Received: from cmsout03.mbox.net (HELO cmsout03) (165.212.64.33) by cmsout03.mbox.net with SMTP; 31 Oct 2004 10:13:05 -0000 Received: from uadvg129.cms.usa.net [165.212.11.129] by cmsout03 via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.16w); Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:13:05 GMT X-USANET-From: 165.212.11.129 IN misnagid@usa.net uadvg129.cms.usa.net Received: from [192.168.1.100] [68.41.5.167] by uadvg129.cms.usa.net (ASMTP/misnagid@usa.net) via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.17K) with ESMTP id 628iJEkND0030M29; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:13:03 GMT X-USANET-Auth: 68.41.5.167 AUTH misnagid@usa.net [192.168.1.100] From: misnagid To: Miguel Mendez In-Reply-To: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> References: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1099214518.3560.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 04:21:58 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: misnagid@usa.net List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:13:06 -0000 I'll second that Miguel! Thanks!! Jerr On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 04:59, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:36:42 -0700 > "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote: > > Guys, > > > 95% of the GPL advocates out there don't know the first damn thing > > about the GPL and undoubtedly have never completely read through > > the thing, MUCH LESS have read the supporting philosophy and writing > > around it. I see GPL bigots ALL THE TIME arguing about how great > > GPL code is and how the GPL is so all fired wonderful because of this > > and that which isn't even IN the damn license!!! > > I don't know if you're aware of this, but this kind is *useless* > discussion has been going on on the mailing lists for *years*. Check > groups.google.com and you'll see that everything you might want to add > about GPL vs BSD has already been said a hundred times. John Dyson > posted a lot about it, then Brett Glass did for a while, and now you. > > If the time wasted on these rants had gone into writing software we'd > have a 100% BSDL system today. My very humble suggestion is that you > please take this somewhere else. I've never seen a GPL advocate 'see the > light' and start licensing his software under the BSD license after > having a conversation with a BSD 'zealot', or vice versa. > > /me goes back to lurking... > > Cheers, -- Cast a cold Eye On Life, On Death Horseman pass by! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 19:02:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2560F16A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:02:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC96C43D49 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:02:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000253075.msg for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:38:39 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:02:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:38:39 -0800 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:38:39 -0800 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:02:09 -0000 > No, they are arguing that the RESULT of the linking becomes a derived > work, NOT the original, unlinked work itself. Well, if they're arguing that, they're right, but the argument is irrelevent. If I run any executable on a Linux box, the RESULT of the running (the state of my computer) is a derived work, NOT the original, unexecuted work. Since nobody is distributing the derived wok, and the GPL allows unrestricted use, why is this important? > This is a fine line here, and one that is more of a legal argument than > anything else. > > I think the idea of it goes something along these lines. Suppose you > distribute a non-functional program along with instructions that to > make it functional, the user must fetch some GPL program and link > that in. No problem there. Or, of course, any other program that implemented the same interface as the GPL program. This is the key, it's not the copyrighted expression (the source code) of the GPL product that is being used, but it's (unprotected) interface to the outside world. > But then suppose you distribute the same program along with the GPL > program and a set of instructions the user must follow to build it, > and to get it running. One again, no problem there. > > But then, suppose you distribute your program AND the GPL program AND > when your program is run, it automatically pulls in the GPL program > and links into it and does it's thing. THAT I think is where they > are arguing that your crossing the line. Why? You are still distributing the unmodified GPL program and you are still only deriving from its interface, not its code. > From one view of things, they do have a point - as your third distribution > is in effect a way to dodge the effects of the GPL. No, it's not a way to dodge the effects of the GPL, it's a way not to create a derivative work. It's no more a dodge than developing a work-alike in a clean room is a dodge. I can't stand when people interpret defining the legitimate bounds of copyright as ways to 'dodge' the law or 'steal' other people's work. (And I'm not saying that *you* are doing that!) The law protects the original expression in the source code and anything that directly flows from that. It does not protect the interface into and out of the program, unless that also contains protected expression. > But of course > from a strict copyright interpretation point of view, I think that this > is the weakest argument the FSF is making about the GPL because I think > the history of court cases of these nature has shown that courts generally > say that even when code is intermixed, that each entity retains it's > own copyright. Exactly, so long as they are not intermixed in a way that you can't draw a line between them. Including a header file is a tough case, because they are more thoroughly intermixed. But linking, IMO, leaves a clear line between the two works. And even if it didn't, the line is certainly there before the link, and dynamic linking is use. > > Nothing that you can do with a work after it's produced can > > turn that work > > into a derivative work of another work. > > That isn't and wasn't ever the point. Your "you" here is the secondary > user not the original author. The example I gave was that the "you" was > the original coder/copyright holder. You do admit that you can't link code until you've written it, right? The copyrightable expression is the writing of the source code. Nothing that happens after the source code is written can make the copyrightable expression not fully original. > > Even if the program had been designed from the beginning to > > work with an > > interface that was currently only implemented in a GPL'd > > library, I would > > still find the argument absurd (though slightly less so). > Once again, I've said it several times before but you don't seem to > get it, so I'll say it again. The GPL is concerned with DISTRIBUTION > -not- MANUFACTURE. The distribution is in the form of mere aggregation. You can't make one work a derivative of another by distributing them together. The GPL only has force on a work if it's a derivative work. > If you design a program from the beginning that works with an interface > only implemented in a GPL library, then there is NO problem if > that code is NOT GPL'd, AS LONG AS you aren't distributing a compiled > version of it that links in the GPL library. Why? The distribution occurs after the work is made. It can't make the work a derivative work. And the distribution itself is of the mere aggregation of the two works -- there is a *clear* line between them. The combined work is only formed at execution time. You might as well argue that RedHat can't distribute the Linux kernel in a CD set with any work that's not GPL'd because when you install and run them, they combine with the Linux kernel (or other libraries). Yes, they do. So what? That's *use*. RedHat has just as much tweaked all those products to work together as the hypothetical linking case we're talking about here. And it still doesn't make any of the works derivative of any of the others. Legally speaking (grossly oversimplified), one work is a derivative work of another if the protected expression in one work contains some significant portion of the protected expression in another. > If the end users -must- > go compile in some GPL code that is perfectly fine as long as THEY > have to consciously choose to do it, NOT YOU (or your program). I find that argument silly. Nothing that happens after a work is created can change its copyright status. The GPL can only apply to a work if the author chooses to apply it, or if that work is derivative of a GPL'd work. > You know I said this already on Tuesday, the GPL is concerned with > REDISTRIBUTION not COPYRIGHT. Why do you insist in ignoring this? I can't comprehend what you mean. It's concerned with redistribution, not use. But it can only cover a work if copyright law allows someone who chose to use the GPL to have some rights over that work. > You know, I really find this to be extremely ironic. I am a big > opponent of the GPL license and always have been. But I find myself > playing devils advocate here for the GPL because so many of you > who should damn well know better quite obviously don't know the > first damn thing about the GPL. I'm sorry, what don't I know exactly? (Are you talking about me or some general class of GPL bashers?) > Clue phone ringing here! DON'T TRY ARGUING AGAINST SOMETHING YOU > DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT. > > If you thing the GPL is a pile of poop, as I do, THEN LEARN THE DAMN > THING BETTER THAN MOST OF THE GPL ADVOCATES OUT THERE. Trust me, > IT AIN'T HARD!! I think I know the GPL about as well as the advocates do. I don't think it's a pile of poop, but I don't like its effects and prefer non-GPL'd projects and works to GPL'd ones. > 95% of the GPL advocates out there don't know the first damn thing > about the GPL and undoubtedly have never completely read through > the thing, MUCH LESS have read the supporting philosophy and writing > around it. I see GPL bigots ALL THE TIME arguing about how great > GPL code is and how the GPL is so all fired wonderful because of this > and that which isn't even IN the damn license!!! > > Read the GPL. Read the FSF's website and RMS's writings. Read the BSD > copyright. THEN if you want to go bash the GPL please do so!!! I have, and while I don't bash them, I disagree with many of their interpretations because they don't seem to reflect any understanding whatsoever of copyright law. I think part of this is because RMS often rights about the world the way he wishes it was rather than the way it actually is. Again, the GPL can only affect a work if someone with legal copyright over that work decides to apply it. That would mean the authors/owners, unless the work could legally be classified as a derivative work of a GPL'd work. This is a copyright law technical term that the words of the GPL cannot change because its legal authority to affect the work at all comes from whether it has or hasn't that particular legal status in the first place. This article is reasonably on point: http://linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6366 DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 22:05:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3567416A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:05:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D1943D4C for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:05:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from TM4525@aol.com) Received: from TM4525@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id o.79.373c6637 (3866); Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:05:16 -0500 (EST) From: TM4525@aol.com Message-ID: <79.373c6637.2eb6bb9c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:05:16 EST To: davids@webmaster.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:05:31 -0000 The implication that the copyright holder of every O/S owns the copyright to every application and device driver that runs on it because they require the O/S to work is so stupid that I can't believe that any of you have convinced yourself that there is an argument that can be made that supports it. The GPL is designed to scare people into donating their code. Please come to terms with it. And please stop CCing me on this. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 22:13:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2521916A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:13:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4D043D41 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:13:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9VMDSY18413; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Miguel Mendez" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:13:28 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:13:43 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Miguel Mendez [mailto:flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org] > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 1:59 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: davids@webmaster.com; chat@freebsd.org; TM4525@aol.com > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > I don't know if you're aware of this, but this kind is *useless* > discussion has been going on on the mailing lists for *years*. Check > groups.google.com and you'll see that everything you might want to add > about GPL vs BSD has already been said a hundred times. John Dyson > posted a lot about it, then Brett Glass did for a while, and now you. > Have you ever stopped a minute to think about why this is? FreeBSD is not a dead operating system. Every day there are dozens if not hundreds of NEW UERS who have NEVER encountered these 'useless discussions'. To them, these discussions are not uninteresting, and provide much needed background. Furthermore the topics keep coming up because these licenses are being applied all of the time to new software packages all of the time. There are always new situations that these licenses are being used in. > If the time wasted on these rants had gone into writing software we'd > have a 100% BSDL system today. My very humble suggestion is that you > please take this somewhere else. I've never seen a GPL advocate 'see the > light' and start licensing his software under the BSD license after > having a conversation with a BSD 'zealot', or vice versa. > You probably missed the issue if you think this is a discussion meant to convince someone BSD is better than GPL. The people on this list already KNOW that BSD is better than GPL. They don't need convincing. What they DO need to know, however, is WHY. That is educational discussion not useless argument. My humble suggestion to you is that you shake off the idea you seem to have that the ultimate goal is a 'finished' 100% BSDL system. If that ever happened, BSD would be dead. Minix is a 'finished' system. Xenix is a 'finished' system. Covalent is a 'finished' system. FreeBSD is not, and hopefully never will be. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 22:55:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05A916A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:55:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C2143D46 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:55:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9VMtkY18571; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:55:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:55:50 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Schwartz [mailto:davids@webmaster.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 11:02 AM > To: tedm@toybox.placo.com; chat@freebsd.org > Cc: TM4525@aol.com > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > I have, and while I don't bash them, I disagree with many of their > interpretations > because they don't seem to reflect any understanding > whatsoever of copyright law. What you just said there was a bash. > I think part of this is because RMS often > rights about the world the way he wishes it was rather than the way it > actually is. > Or sings about it. ;-) That statement is a pretty accurate assessment of RMS. > Again, the GPL can only affect a work if someone with legal > copyright over > that work decides to apply it. That would mean the authors/owners, unless > the work could legally be classified as a derivative work of a GPL'd work. > This is a copyright law technical term that the words of the GPL cannot > change because its legal authority to affect the work at all comes from > whether it has or hasn't that particular legal status in the first place. > Right, but the argument isn't over whether or not the copyright holder can exercise control. The argument is over what constitutes a derivative work. Here is another link that tries to answer this: http://chillingeffects.org/derivative/faq.cgi The problem is simply that right now there isn't a lot of caselaw out there regarding what constitutes a derivative work in a software program. The FSF has this to say about it here: http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html "If a library is released under the GPL (not the LGPL), does that mean that any program which uses it has to be under the GPL? Yes, because the program as it is actually run includes the library." But using the examples of derivative work given on the chillingeffects website, if I were to write a 100,000 line program that linked into a 200 line GPL program, my program probably couldn't be considered a derivative work of the library. About the worst that could happen is my program might be considered to be infringing the copyright of the copyright holder of the library - but if that library is written specifically to let the general public link into it, the copyright holder of the library would have a hard time trying to justify to the court why he was allowing some people and not others to link in. Additionally since libraries aren't programs themselves, they wouldn't typically be used as a 'starting point' for a new work, further complicating any effort to consider a program that uses them a derivative work. So as you see I do agree with this as a redistribution problem for the GPL. But, until the GPL is tested in a court and we get some caselaw out there, the FSF's interpretation of a derivative work is as they say, 'not invalid' And all the reports are that the FSF has been doing everything possible to settle these cases out of court. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 22:57:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453B616A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:57:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B19C43D1D for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:57:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3954B362E1; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:57:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:57:13 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Message-Id: <20041031235713.14863e58.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.12-gtk2-20040918 (GTK+ 2.4.9; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_23_57_13_+0100_efEFxo4NirniHfz7" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:57:17 -0000 --Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_23_57_13_+0100_efEFxo4NirniHfz7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:13:28 -0800 "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote: Hi, > FreeBSD is not a dead operating system. Every day there are dozens if > not hundreds of NEW UERS who have NEVER encountered these 'useless > discussions'. To them, these discussions are not uninteresting, and That's not a reason to keep bringing the same topic on again and again. That's what FAQs and archives are for. And yes, even if you're new to the system you're expected to check the archives before posting a question. > You probably missed the issue if you think this is a discussion meant > to convince someone BSD is better than GPL. The people on this list > already KNOW that BSD is better than GPL. They don't need convincing. Says who, you? I thought people chose FreeBSD based on its technical merits and for being "the right tool for the job". > What they DO need to know, however, is WHY. That is educational > discussion not useless argument. It is when all you're doing is beat the dead horse. As I've already told you, check the archives, everything you might say now was said by Dyson long long ago. > My humble suggestion to you is that you shake off the idea you seem > to have that the ultimate goal is a 'finished' 100% BSDL system. If > that ever happened, BSD would be dead. You're confusing having BSDL'd tools with stale development. And now, please, let the thread die and don't bother answering to this either. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 Note: All HTML mail goes to /dev/null --Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_23_57_13_+0100_efEFxo4NirniHfz7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBhW3MnLctrNyFFPERAsaDAKCgWaCm3s9SAanAjE7QjQ4AVpg+mACguT/R K6q1V+z3u2hviOkA4OXe8Ug= =WuUL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Sun__31_Oct_2004_23_57_13_+0100_efEFxo4NirniHfz7-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 23:05:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0340916A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:05:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C9343D31 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:05:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) i9VN5CY18603 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:05:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:05:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041031235713.14863e58.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:05:14 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Miguel Mendez [mailto:flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org] > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 2:57 PM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > You probably missed the issue if you think this is a discussion meant > > to convince someone BSD is better than GPL. The people on this list > > already KNOW that BSD is better than GPL. They don't need convincing. > > Says who, you? I thought people chose FreeBSD based on its technical > merits and for being "the right tool for the job". > Well then, I guess we do need to educate people. Even more reason for the discussion! Thanks for reminding me of this! > > What they DO need to know, however, is WHY. That is educational > > discussion not useless argument. > > It is when all you're doing is beat the dead horse. As I've already told > you, check the archives, everything you might say now was said by Dyson > long long ago. > And as I've already told you, there is no guarentee that anything posted long long ago has any relevance to today. > > And now, please, let the thread die and don't bother answering to this > either. > If you want the thread dead, don't keep it alive by continuing to add to it. And in any case, I didn't start the thread. Haven't you considered that your being pretty rude to presume to speak for what the O.P. wanted? Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 31 23:37:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E587116A4CE for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:37:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756CC43D45 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:37:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i9VNawWJ087727; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:37:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 00:31:52 +0100 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:37:18 -0000 At 3:05 PM -0800 2004-10-31, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > And as I've already told you, there is no guarentee that anything > posted long long ago has any relevance to today. Has the GPL changed since then? Has the BSD license changed since then? Have the laws changed since then? If none of these things have changed, then I don't see how they would be any less relevant today than they were at the time they were originally said. Moreover, if you want to dredge up this old flame war, you need to provide proof that what they said is no longer relevant, as opposed to requiring them to prove that it is still relevant. Since you can't do that, your entire basis for your revisiting this ancient flame war is totally invalid. >> And now, please, let the thread die and don't bother answering to this >> either. > > If you want the thread dead, don't keep it alive by continuing to add > to it. Let me be the second person to request that you let this thread die yet once again. Let me also say that if you persist in continuing this line, I will take this matter up with the FreeBSD postmaster and the list administrators, and do everything I can to get you unsubscribed from the list and your posting privileges revoked. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 04:14:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425F416A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 04:14:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6754F43D49 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 04:14:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17980; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:48 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041031211135.058f8de0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:13:28 -0700 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041029235332.0532be08@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: TM4525@aol.com Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 04:14:04 -0000 At 11:46 PM 10/30/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >You obviously never heard of this, then: > >ftp://sunrise.ipinc.net/pub/why-cooperation-with-rms-is-impossible.mp3 Sure I have. I even have a better version that's much less painful to listen to. It's called "RMS meets El Kabong." See (or, rather, hear) http://www.brettglass.com/rms.mp3 --Brett From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 04:28:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8A616A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 04:28:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8D343D46 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 04:28:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000253513.msg for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:04:29 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:27:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:04:29 -0800 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:04:30 -0800 Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 04:28:06 -0000 > > I have, and while I don't bash them, I disagree with many of their > > interpretations > > > because they don't seem to reflect any understanding > > whatsoever of copyright law. > > What you just said there was a bash. Not a bash. It's a indisputable fact that there are wacko GPL advocates who have no understanding of copyright law at all and just assume that it works the naive way they think it should work. They say things as absurd as that one work can be a derivative work of another even though the authors of that work never saw any of the work it's supposed to be derivative of. There are wackos on the other side too, of course. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 11:35:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E1C16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:35:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9281C43D49 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:35:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iA1BZNwH033797; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 06:35:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:24:42 +0100 To: davids@webmaster.com From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 11:35:49 -0000 At 8:27 PM -0800 2004-10-31, David Schwartz wrote: > There are wackos on the other side too, of course. There are whackos all around the world, and most of the people who actively participate in religious flame wars would probably qualify as a whacko. Can we let this thread die now? -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 14:12:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4297316A50A for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:12:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C3443D3F for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:12:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from torstenvl@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 79so134130rnk for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 06:12:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=W7ffvMWBAgi2hzPoWrAEkof5geMqYPv7tjB2ybAaK3PqwYTVf4xAoT2kS/lbHxTrm0cK83JJqe0Hbl5F9cc4eJXIAuGjZ7vN3Z6k2LwAMmwgKPDNoTZyqOjgrEA9hcnfjJCfY8Deb/j63pFSPBEUbLEkME58G77trz3diw0v/jQ= Received: by 10.38.150.78 with SMTP id x78mr750144rnd; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 06:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.73.67 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 06:12:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <126eac4804110106127610fe07@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:12:25 -0500 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= To: Ted Mittelstaedt In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?Josh_=C5=8Cckert?= List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:12:29 -0000 Actually, Ted, to us newbies, it is uninteresting. Most of us come from Linux and know the GPL fairly well by now. Since YANAL (You Are Not All Lawyers), I think these discussions are kind of a waste of time On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 14:13:28 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Miguel Mendez [mailto:flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org] > > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 1:59 AM > > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > > Cc: davids@webmaster.com; chat@freebsd.org; TM4525@aol.com > > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > > > I don't know if you're aware of this, but this kind is *useless* > > discussion has been going on on the mailing lists for *years*. Check > > groups.google.com and you'll see that everything you might want to add > > about GPL vs BSD has already been said a hundred times. John Dyson > > posted a lot about it, then Brett Glass did for a while, and now you. > > > > Have you ever stopped a minute to think about why this is? > > FreeBSD is not a dead operating system. Every day there are dozens if > not hundreds of NEW UERS who have NEVER encountered these 'useless > discussions'. To them, these discussions are not uninteresting, and > provide much needed background. Furthermore the topics keep coming > up because these licenses are being applied all of the time to new > software packages all of the time. There are always new situations > that these licenses are being used in. > > > If the time wasted on these rants had gone into writing software we'd > > have a 100% BSDL system today. My very humble suggestion is that you > > please take this somewhere else. I've never seen a GPL advocate 'see the > > light' and start licensing his software under the BSD license after > > having a conversation with a BSD 'zealot', or vice versa. > > > > You probably missed the issue if you think this is a discussion meant > to convince someone BSD is better than GPL. The people on this list > already KNOW that BSD is better than GPL. They don't need convincing. > What they DO need to know, however, is WHY. That is educational discussion > not useless argument. > > My humble suggestion to you is that you shake off the idea you seem > to have that the ultimate goal is a 'finished' 100% BSDL system. If > that ever happened, BSD would be dead. > > Minix is a 'finished' system. Xenix is a 'finished' system. Covalent > is a 'finished' system. FreeBSD is not, and hopefully never will be. > > Ted > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 15:01:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F9316A583 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:01:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503EA43D49 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:01:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1COdg0-0000fP-3u; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:00:56 +0000 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:00:56 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Josh ??ckert Message-ID: <20041101150056.GD95472@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <126eac4804110106127610fe07@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <126eac4804110106127610fe07@mail.gmail.com> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:01:03 -0000 On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 09:12:25AM -0500, Josh ??ckert wrote: > Actually, Ted, to us newbies, it is uninteresting. Most of us come > from Linux and know the GPL fairly well by now. Since YANAL (You Are > Not All Lawyers), I think these discussions are kind of a waste of > time Speak for yourself. The vast majority of people out there think Open Source == GPL. The vast majority of people coming to open source are not aware of what the differences between GPL and BSD are. I know, because I speak to a lot of people who are new to Open Source as part of my job. The first question is whether the difference matters. If you're a user, then no, it doesn't. If you're a developer, yes, it quite obviously does. The second question is normally which one is "better". It depends on whether you like your politics to take place in the context of an electoral democracy, or a software license. Those of us over here on the BSD side of the camp *may* think Socialism is a wonderful concept but don't think the best place to enforce it is in the licenses we attatch to the code we ship. GPL bunnies will not be happy until there is an all-out revolution of the software industry and all software becomes "free" in all senses of the word. Except of course, GPL enforcing freedom is about as dumb an idea as enforcing democracy and actually, in the process, obviously encumbers people with a process that serves political ends rather than the fostering of a community that shares. If you don't like the conversations that occur on these matters, may I direct you to your e-mail clients ability to filter e-mail based on subject line, or even the ability to delete e-mail? P.S. - I apologise if none of the above makes sense. Pub lunch and all that. It *is* Monday after all. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 15:33:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB6216A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:33:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31AD43D2F for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:33:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id iA1FWaA4004174; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id iA1FWY5s004173; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200411011532.iA1FWY5s004173@dyson.jdyson.com> In-Reply-To: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> from Miguel Mendez at "Oct 31, 2004 10:59:26 am" To: flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org (Miguel Mendez) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:34 -0500 (EST) From: jsd@jdyson.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsd@jdyson.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:33:14 -0000 Miguel Mendez said: > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 23:36:42 -0700 > "Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote: > > Guys, > > > 95% of the GPL advocates out there don't know the first damn thing > > about the GPL and undoubtedly have never completely read through > > the thing, MUCH LESS have read the supporting philosophy and writing > > around it. I see GPL bigots ALL THE TIME arguing about how great > > GPL code is and how the GPL is so all fired wonderful because of this > > and that which isn't even IN the damn license!!! > > I don't know if you're aware of this, but this kind is *useless* > discussion has been going on on the mailing lists for *years*. Check > groups.google.com and you'll see that everything you might want to add > about GPL vs BSD has already been said a hundred times. John Dyson > posted a lot about it, then Brett Glass did for a while, and now you. > > If the time wasted on these rants had gone into writing software we'd > have a 100% BSDL system today. My very humble suggestion is that you > please take this somewhere else. I've never seen a GPL advocate 'see the > light' and start licensing his software under the BSD license after > having a conversation with a BSD 'zealot', or vice versa. > I don't believe that it is useless to keep the awareness of the licnese differences alive. Just recently, my new boss asked me some questions about GPL encumberance -- and being an honest person (always), and not acting as an advocate, I had to explain that the GPL wouldn't hurt us in the specific case that he asked about. I also told him that we did have to be aware of the ramifications of the GPL, and I'll keep my eyes open for troubles. On the other hand, making the typical, incorrect assumptions about the GPL, based upon the spin about it being a license of 'free' software, a company and (employees) can get into trouble. This fact is proven by the historical 'gotcha' behaviors of the GPL crowd against certain developments. As long as ALL of the rhetoric and spin about the GPL is ignored, and the license is treated like any other restrictive license, where every word and phrase is carefully understood, then the GPL can be a useful license of useful software. Treating GPLed works as free to use and reuse, especially by add-on software developers, can be dangerous. Treating GPLed works as software that has a long and important to read/understand license, that is a plan for success (or at worst, minimized failure.) On the other hand, the BSD licenses can be used as licenses of free software, and common sense WRT the term 'free' does apply here. The issue of GPL advocacy or BSD advocacy is probably dead -- because you won't change the whole value systems of an individual in the discussion. However, when using the licenses, it is important to fully understand the ramifications -- no matter if someone is GPL religious, BSD religious or agnostic (like me.) Like most people, my own 'hot button' is when I am lied to. John From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 15:42:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA4816A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:42:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DA343D2F for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:42:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24108; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:40:45 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20041101083738.053d32e8@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 08:40:37 -0700 To: jsd@jdyson.com, flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org (Miguel Mendez) From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200411011532.iA1FWY5s004173@dyson.jdyson.com> References: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <200411011532.iA1FWY5s004173@dyson.jdyson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 15:42:26 -0000 At 08:32 AM 11/1/2004, jsd@jdyson.com wrote: >I don't believe that it is useless to keep the awareness of the >licnese differences alive. It is not at all useless; in fact, it is very important. If the differences are not pointed out, then the GPL and its malicious anti-programmer, anti-business agenda wins by default. If someone preaches that licensing differences are meaningless, then he is either unintentionally or intentionally pushing Stallman's agenda, which includes depriving programmers of a decent living wage (see the "GNU Manifesto".) --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 16:27:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11CB16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:27:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A98843D41 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:27:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1COf1u-0001Y3-L2; Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:27:38 +0000 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:27:38 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20041101162738.GE95472@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041031105926.4f06b06f.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> <200411011532.iA1FWY5s004173@dyson.jdyson.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041101083738.053d32e8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041101083738.053d32e8@localhost> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: TM4525@aol.com cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 16:27:41 -0000 On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 08:40:37AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > It is not at all useless; in fact, it is very important. If the > differences are not pointed out, then the GPL and its malicious > anti-programmer, anti-business agenda wins by default. If someone > preaches that licensing differences are meaningless, then he is > either unintentionally or intentionally pushing Stallman's agenda, > which includes depriving programmers of a decent living wage (see > the "GNU Manifesto".) We've definitely been here before, but I enjoy kicking Stallman when we have him metaphorically on the floor of the mailing list. Remember, GNU/GPL is about building community spirit, not about making money. You should make your money by perhaps going on lecture tour, or stealing from banks. You must not make money writing code, because that is evil and means code does not make empower the communist revolution and socialist uprising. You like BSD? Why do you hate freedom? I honestly believe, joking aside, Stallman's original vision was about producing a system for developers, not for users. He wanted developers to be part of a community, not part of some "my code is great, but you can only see it if I get 'X' back in return" circle-jerk. He has succeeded quite measurably, but I don't think his vision was ever meant to apply to a society where every home has a PC (if not more than one) and quite considerable computing power can be obtained brand new for the same price as a TV. Plus, playing Devil's advocate, BSD has its own faults. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 1 23:21:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB50C16A4CE for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:21:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from aiolos.otenet.gr (aiolos.otenet.gr [195.170.0.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A8143D68 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:20:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a134.otenet.gr [212.205.215.134]) iA1NKWvr027843 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 01:20:44 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iA1LTtZx043084 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:29:55 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iA1LSP63041710; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:28:25 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:28:24 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Joe Warner Message-ID: <20041101212824.GA35814@gothmog.gr> References: <200410300630.14877.rootman22@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200410300630.14877.rootman22@comcast.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why do you do it? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:21:01 -0000 On 2004-10-30 06:30, Joe Warner wrote: > As far as the FreeBSD user community goes it's a no-brainer for me, FreeBSD > touts a long list of reasons why someone interested in UNIX, computing, > programming and/or networking would want to use it. However, I've always > wondered what motivates the FreeBSD Developers. The general explanation I've > heard is "Because we get to work on projects we're interested in as opposed > to profit-based projects imposed by our employers which we may or may not be > interested in." Is it that simple or does it go deeper? Why do you do it? > What motivates you? I hope this isn't too long. The quoted material is copied verbatim from Poul-Henning's article. The comments below the quoted stuff are mine. : I guess the closest we get to anything of the sort is the "FreeBSD: tools : not policies" catchphrase which I coined some years ago (heavily inspired by : the Software Tools concept, which you can read more about in Peter's book). To understand why someone would contribute to FreeBSD, it's first important to understand why someone would *use* FreeBSD. The greatest majority of FreeBSD contributors are also users of the system itself. Here's a list of reasons for using FreeBSD that I have been able to write down during the last few days: - Appreciation of quality. This works in multiple levels: . As a user, for having a quality system to work with. This includes a wide range of FreeBSD characteristics, but the most visible are: the excellent documentation (manpages, sgml docs, other documents), the featureful base system, are all important reasons why a user would prefer FreeBSD. . As an administrator, for having a stable system that Just Works(TM). The flexibility of the installation procedure, the documented detailed instructions for updating or upgrading an installed system, are details that make administering FreeBSD a lot more fun than other UNIX systems. . As a developer for having a system that is organized in a logical manner. The clear separation of the base-system vs. third-part applications, machine dependent vs. machine independent features, the well-known BSD platform, and the availability of the system source are all details that make developing on or for FreeBSD a very pleasing experience. . All the above together. When combined, all the details listed above, the tiny little fragments of every day life with FreeBSD, make it the system of choise for many people. I know they do for me. - Tools. FreeBSD has been useful to me. . As a workstation: I'm too addicted to the UNIX way of doing things -- to the point of being frustrated when I have to sit in front of the pretty point-and-click randomness that some people like calling a 'desktop'. FreeBSD lets me work the way *I* want, any time. When I feel like using a GUI, a GUI is there for me. When I don't, it's gone. Simple and nice. . As a network server, firewall, NAT gateway, etc. Some will argue that all these can be done with other UNIX systems too. The advantages of FreeBSD in this area are many though, speed and stability being almost invariably the two most important ones, followed by the great number of network related features the system has (netgraph, ipfw, dummynet/natd, bridging, ipfilter/ipnat, pf, altq) or the excellent support of networking standards, etc. - Education. Learning by reading the work of others. Just having the source of some-random-kernel version 1.2.0 doesn't count. The history and the rationale of the changes made, set forever in stone in a CVS tree, browsable and searchable with standard tools is very important too. - FreeBSD is UNIX. I have used UNIX systems almost exclusively for doing my every day work since about 1994. At times, I had to work in other environments too. The comfort level of UNIX beats all of those I've tried so far, any day, easily. I hate it when I have to work with non-UNIX platforms, because I feel like being constantly delayed and put back by the limitations of the system: you can't use more than 13 characters for names of files, directories cannot nest more than a couple of levels, the filesystem is dog-slow unless you run a defragmenter, there is no way to create a disk image without specialized and very expensive software, you can't put more than a few hundred files in the same directory before the whole thing crawls to its knees, ... and the list goes on forever. No, thanks! I'll take my UNIX any day. - Licensing reasons. GPL may be good if you plan to `conquer the world'. Doing real work, in a real business environment, is easier if you don't have to worry about the possibility of being forced to open source everything your company has ever done. - Community. I meant to write a post in my weblog entitled "Why Attitude Matters", describing why I think the attitute of the FreeBSD users and developers played an important role in my initial choise of FreeBSD as my favorite OS. I never quite finished it, but I'm still collecting notes, searching for interesting messages in my mail archives and so on. It will be a while before I have something resembling a complete article, but in the mean-time let me say just this: Apart from very rare cases, everyone I've corresponded in the years I've used FreeBSD (both members of the team and not) has been very gentle, understanding and *helpful*. I can't stress the last word too much. _Very_ helpful. Despite the fact that they don't have to. Giving back to a community like this feels absolutely great. It's the best way to become a part of this group of talented, smart, gentle community that treats newcomers with respect. : Why am I sitting here at ten in the night, writing a column for an e-zine : that I don't know when will come out next? Why did I even volunteer to : co-write this column in the first place ? Optimistic expectations. Making a contribution to an open source project is always based a bit on the expectation of "making a positive difference". This is something that cannot be done so easily with commercial UNIX OSes. When you buy a UNIX system from a vendor like Sun, HP or whoever, you get a `product'. The roadmap of improvements, the design of future directions, the changes that are made and the features that will eventually get implemented are usually chosen by the `big customers'. In FreeBSD, every user, even the newbie who has installed the system yesterday and tries to read through the Handbook but gets confused, has a chance to make a positive difference to the system: by submitting a question, by posting a bug report, by suggesting features, etc. Having the impression that the evolution of FreeBSD *can* be influenced by every user, if they put the time and effort to do something, is what works as a trigger to make the users really *do* something. : I have been close to quitting the project a couple of times over the years. : But each time, emails from friends and strangers and the soft seducing song : of code needing improvement have lured me back. The first part of the closing sentence above rings a familiar bell to many of us, the contributors to open source projects. Some times, the reasons why one contributes are linked with social life. There is a great deal of truth in the last part of the above sentence too, which I'm sure Poul-Henning put there intentionally, but might go unnoticed if one hasn't worked with FreeBSD people for a while. It can be put into words as a simple phrase that characterizes a great percentage -- the overwhelming majority -- of the developers that are members of the FreeBSD team: The obsession with quality. If there is something that is broken (or, at least, that they consider broken) the FreeBSD developers have a huge, irresistible urge to fix it. Here is then the second sort of motive for contributing to an open source project: all the technical reasons. : I guess that gives me personally an answer: I bother because I can make a : positive difference in FreeBSD and have some fun with friends and likeminded : individuals while doing so. That's the meat of it. Technical and social reasons. : In the light of the increasing commercial momentum of Linux, not, by : definition, an entirely good thing for them, and with "Linux Standards Base : 2" looking like a strong contender for the long promised definitive UNIX : standard, we could find ourselves relegated to being "a better linux than : linux" if we are caught unprepared. : : Why do we bother? I bother because I like what I do as part of the FreeBSD project. Both the technical and social part of it all. The technical part refers to working with a system that I can twist and bend to my will, that serves me as a workstation, server, or research machine, that includes all the UNIX features I have grown accustomed to during the 11 years I work with computers, a system whose source has educated me and increased my knowledge of the way computers work and a system that is hackable without having to pay hefty amounts of money for 'buying' the right to read the source. The social part refers to all those wonderful afternoons or nights that I hang out with my friends, doing things that I like, sharing our common interest in computers and the way they work and using FreeBSD as our vehicle to learn how to think, how to design and build things, as a tool to assist us in our (very interesting, to all of us) programming hobbies ;-) - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 00:18:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F8516A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:18:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F7143D3F for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:18:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rootman22@comcast.net) Received: from c-24-10-192-50.client.comcast.net ([24.10.192.50]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <2004110200183001600154nle>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000 From: Joe Warner To: Giorgos Keramidas Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:18:30 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200410300630.14877.rootman22@comcast.net> <20041101212824.GA35814@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: <20041101212824.GA35814@gothmog.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411011718.30582.rootman22@comcast.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why do you do it? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:18:34 -0000 On Monday 01 November 2004 02:28 pm, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2004-10-30 06:30, Joe Warner wrote: > > As far as the FreeBSD user community goes it's a no-brainer for me, > > FreeBSD touts a long list of reasons why someone interested in UNIX, > > computing, programming and/or networking would want to use it. However, > > I've always wondered what motivates the FreeBSD Developers. The general > > explanation I've heard is "Because we get to work on projects we're > > interested in as opposed to profit-based projects imposed by our > > employers which we may or may not be interested in." Is it that simple > > or does it go deeper? Why do you do it? What motivates you? > > I hope this isn't too long. The quoted material is copied verbatim from > Poul-Henning's article. The comments below the quoted stuff are mine. > > : I guess the closest we get to anything of the sort is the "FreeBSD: tools > : not policies" catchphrase which I coined some years ago (heavily inspired > : by the Software Tools concept, which you can read more about in Peter's > : book). > > To understand why someone would contribute to FreeBSD, it's first important > to understand why someone would *use* FreeBSD. The greatest majority of > FreeBSD contributors are also users of the system itself. > > Here's a list of reasons for using FreeBSD that I have been able to write > down during the last few days: > > - Appreciation of quality. This works in multiple levels: > > . As a user, for having a quality system to work with. This includes a > wide range of FreeBSD characteristics, but the most visible are: the > excellent documentation (manpages, sgml docs, other documents), the > featureful base system, are all important reasons why a user would prefer > FreeBSD. > > . As an administrator, for having a stable system that Just Works(TM). > The flexibility of the installation procedure, the documented detailed > instructions for updating or upgrading an installed system, are details > that make administering FreeBSD a lot more fun than other UNIX systems. > > . As a developer for having a system that is organized in a logical > manner. The clear separation of the base-system vs. third-part > applications, machine dependent vs. machine independent features, the > well-known BSD platform, and the availability of the system source are all > details that make developing on or for FreeBSD a very pleasing experience. > > . All the above together. When combined, all the details listed above, > the tiny little fragments of every day life with FreeBSD, make it the > system of choise for many people. I know they do for me. > > - Tools. FreeBSD has been useful to me. > > . As a workstation: I'm too addicted to the UNIX way of doing things -- > to the point of being frustrated when I have to sit in front of the pretty > point-and-click randomness that some people like calling a 'desktop'. > FreeBSD lets me work the way *I* want, any time. When I feel like using a > GUI, a GUI is there for me. When I don't, it's gone. Simple and nice. > > . As a network server, firewall, NAT gateway, etc. Some will argue that > all these can be done with other UNIX systems too. The advantages of > FreeBSD in this area are many though, speed and stability being almost > invariably the two most important ones, followed by the great number of > network related features the system has (netgraph, ipfw, dummynet/natd, > bridging, ipfilter/ipnat, pf, altq) or the excellent support of networking > standards, etc. > > - Education. Learning by reading the work of others. Just having the > source of some-random-kernel version 1.2.0 doesn't count. The history and > the rationale of the changes made, set forever in stone in a CVS tree, > browsable and searchable with standard tools is very important too. > > - FreeBSD is UNIX. I have used UNIX systems almost exclusively for doing > my every day work since about 1994. > > At times, I had to work in other environments too. The comfort level of > UNIX beats all of those I've tried so far, any day, easily. > > I hate it when I have to work with non-UNIX platforms, because I feel > like being constantly delayed and put back by the limitations of the > system: you can't use more than 13 characters for names of files, > directories cannot nest more than a couple of levels, the filesystem is > dog-slow unless you run a defragmenter, there is no way to create a disk > image without specialized and very expensive software, you can't put more > than a few hundred files in the same directory before the whole thing > crawls to its knees, ... and the list goes on forever. > > No, thanks! I'll take my UNIX any day. > > - Licensing reasons. GPL may be good if you plan to `conquer the world'. > Doing real work, in a real business environment, is easier if you don't > have to worry about the possibility of being forced to open source > everything your company has ever done. > > - Community. I meant to write a post in my weblog entitled "Why Attitude > Matters", describing why I think the attitute of the FreeBSD users and > developers played an important role in my initial choise of FreeBSD as my > favorite OS. I never quite finished it, but I'm still collecting notes, > searching for interesting messages in my mail archives and so on. > > It will be a while before I have something resembling a complete article, > but in the mean-time let me say just this: > > Apart from very rare cases, everyone I've corresponded in the years > I've used FreeBSD (both members of the team and not) has been very > gentle, understanding and *helpful*. I can't stress the last word > too much. _Very_ helpful. Despite the fact that they don't have to. > > Giving back to a community like this feels absolutely great. It's the > best way to become a part of this group of talented, smart, gentle > community that treats newcomers with respect. > > : Why am I sitting here at ten in the night, writing a column for an e-zine > : that I don't know when will come out next? Why did I even volunteer to > : co-write this column in the first place ? > > Optimistic expectations. Making a contribution to an open source project > is always based a bit on the expectation of "making a positive difference". > > This is something that cannot be done so easily with commercial UNIX OSes. > When you buy a UNIX system from a vendor like Sun, HP or whoever, you get a > `product'. The roadmap of improvements, the design of future directions, > the changes that are made and the features that will eventually get > implemented are usually chosen by the `big customers'. > > In FreeBSD, every user, even the newbie who has installed the system > yesterday and tries to read through the Handbook but gets confused, has a > chance to make a positive difference to the system: by submitting a > question, by posting a bug report, by suggesting features, etc. > > Having the impression that the evolution of FreeBSD *can* be influenced by > every user, if they put the time and effort to do something, is what works > as a trigger to make the users really *do* something. > > : I have been close to quitting the project a couple of times over the > : years. But each time, emails from friends and strangers and the soft > : seducing song of code needing improvement have lured me back. > > The first part of the closing sentence above rings a familiar bell to many > of us, the contributors to open source projects. Some times, the reasons > why one contributes are linked with social life. > > There is a great deal of truth in the last part of the above sentence too, > which I'm sure Poul-Henning put there intentionally, but might go unnoticed > if one hasn't worked with FreeBSD people for a while. It can be put into > words as a simple phrase that characterizes a great percentage -- the > overwhelming majority -- of the developers that are members of the FreeBSD > team: > > The obsession with quality. > > If there is something that is broken (or, at least, that they consider > broken) the FreeBSD developers have a huge, irresistible urge to fix it. > Here is then the second sort of motive for contributing to an open source > project: all the technical reasons. > > : I guess that gives me personally an answer: I bother because I can make a > : positive difference in FreeBSD and have some fun with friends and > : likeminded individuals while doing so. > > That's the meat of it. Technical and social reasons. > > : In the light of the increasing commercial momentum of Linux, not, by > : definition, an entirely good thing for them, and with "Linux Standards > : Base 2" looking like a strong contender for the long promised definitive > : UNIX standard, we could find ourselves relegated to being "a better linux > : than linux" if we are caught unprepared. > : > : Why do we bother? > > I bother because I like what I do as part of the FreeBSD project. Both the > technical and social part of it all. > > The technical part refers to working with a system that I can twist and > bend to my will, that serves me as a workstation, server, or research > machine, that includes all the UNIX features I have grown accustomed to > during the 11 years I work with computers, a system whose source has > educated me and increased my knowledge of the way computers work and a > system that is hackable without having to pay hefty amounts of money for > 'buying' the right to read the source. > > The social part refers to all those wonderful afternoons or nights that I > hang out with my friends, doing things that I like, sharing our common > interest in computers and the way they work and using FreeBSD as our > vehicle to learn how to think, how to design and build things, as a tool to > assist us in our (very interesting, to all of us) programming hobbies ;-) > > - Giorgos Thanks Giorgos, it's really great to read your perspective and it brings me a lot closer to understanding the overall motivation/s. Would you mind if I shared this with our [1] list members? Also, I was hoping to get responses from some of the other developers too but I hate to cross-post and I'm not sure which other list would be appropriate. Do you have any suggestions? Advocacy, perhaps? -Joe [1] http://www.gubug.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 00:54:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A90216A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:54:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from aiolos.otenet.gr (aiolos.otenet.gr [195.170.0.23]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189AF43D48 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:54:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-a076.otenet.gr [212.205.215.76]) iA20sM96032606; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:54:23 +0200 Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iA20sGiw081466; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:54:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iA20sGUc081465; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:54:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:54:16 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Joe Warner Message-ID: <20041102005416.GA81434@gothmog.gr> References: <200410300630.14877.rootman22@comcast.net> <20041101212824.GA35814@gothmog.gr> <200411011718.30582.rootman22@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200411011718.30582.rootman22@comcast.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why do you do it? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:54:30 -0000 On 2004-11-01 17:18, Joe Warner wrote: > On Monday 01 November 2004 02:28 pm, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > [huge snip] > > Thanks Giorgos, it's really great to read your perspective and it > brings me a lot closer to understanding the overall motivation/s. > > Would you mind if I shared this with our [1] list members? > [1] http://www.gubug.org Not at all. When I post to a public list, the text is, well, "public" :-) > Also, I was hoping to get responses from some of the other developers too but > I hate to cross-post and I'm not sure which other list would be appropriate. > Do you have any suggestions? Advocacy, perhaps? A lot of the most prolific committers are super-busy right now with the final stages of 5.3-RELEASE. You will probably get more replies in a while. If you don't let me know, and I'll see if I can inspire some people to write their own views too. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 02:42:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDC916A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:42:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8492343D1D for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:42:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rootman22@comcast.net) Received: from c-24-10-192-50.client.comcast.net ([24.10.192.50]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20041102024252015007arl9e>; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:42:53 +0000 From: Joe Warner To: Giorgos Keramidas Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:42:51 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200410300630.14877.rootman22@comcast.net> <200411011718.30582.rootman22@comcast.net> <20041102005416.GA81434@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: <20041102005416.GA81434@gothmog.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411011942.51705.rootman22@comcast.net> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why do you do it? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 02:42:53 -0000 On Monday 01 November 2004 05:54 pm, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2004-11-01 17:18, Joe Warner wrote: > > On Monday 01 November 2004 02:28 pm, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > [huge snip] > > > > Thanks Giorgos, it's really great to read your perspective and it > > brings me a lot closer to understanding the overall motivation/s. > > > > Would you mind if I shared this with our [1] list members? > > [1] http://www.gubug.org > > Not at all. When I post to a public list, the text is, well, "public" :-) > > > Also, I was hoping to get responses from some of the other developers too > > but I hate to cross-post and I'm not sure which other list would be > > appropriate. Do you have any suggestions? Advocacy, perhaps? > > A lot of the most prolific committers are super-busy right now with the > final stages of 5.3-RELEASE. Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that..good point. > You will probably get more replies in a > while. If you don't let me know, and I'll see if I can inspire some people > to write their own views too. > > - Giorgos Ok great, thanks for your help/input. -Joe From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 05:04:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94CD16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:04:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563B243D39 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:04:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iA253jv00426; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Josh Ockert" Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:03:45 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <126eac4804110106127610fe07@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:04:06 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Ockert [mailto:torstenvl@gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 6:12 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > Actually, Ted, to us newbies, it is uninteresting. Apparently you were interested enough to post. > Most of us come from Linux That is a rather illogical view don't you think? The majority of users of computers out there start out as Windows users, this is pretty well proven by innumerable marketing surveys. Therefore it stands to reason that of the newbiews to FreeBSD that Windows users, not Linux users, are going to be the majority, purely because of the numbers. Also I can't help but point out that my book covered the newbie coming into FreeBSD from WINDOWS not from LINUX. I very much doubt it would have been accepted for publication if it had assumed newbies to FreeBSD came from Linux, not Windows. Publishing is pretty much a numbers game. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 05:45:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F85A16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:45:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41F043D49 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:45:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iA25jGv00604 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:45:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:45:16 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:45:17 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad@stop.mail-abuse.org] > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:32 PM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > At 3:05 PM -0800 2004-10-31, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > And as I've already told you, there is no guarentee that anything > > posted long long ago has any relevance to today. > > Has the GPL changed since then? Has the BSD license changed > since then? Have the laws changed since then? > Whether they have changed isn't relevant. What is, is the interpretation of them. The interpretation of the laws and licenses is always in flux. Certainly, GPL is a central point of the SCO lawsuit, which has not been resolved. If you were to get sued, to defend yourself your lawyer would be reviewing past court rulings to assist in building a defense. He would not just walk in to the courtroom and say "my client is safe because the license and the law says this" unless he were not very smart. Instead he's going to cite all prior rulings that could be interpreted to support your case, with emphasis on recent rulings. > If none of these things have changed, then I don't see how they > would be any less relevant today than they were at the time they were > originally said. > Because our understanding of anything - even so-called facts - is always contextual. I say the speed of light is so-and-so many miles per second - well, I'm right, right? No. It depends on how strong any gravitational fields happen to be that are near what I'm observing. In short, contextual understanding. Laws are very, very contextual. I might ask, has the US Constitution and Article 1 changed at all since they were written? Don't you think the DMCA modified our interpretation of Article 1 - just a few years ago? The world is only full of absolutes to religious fanatics talking about their preferred diety and what that diety says is true. > > Moreover, if you want to dredge up this old flame war, Why particularly do YOU regard this as a flame war? Do you have some personal vested interest in the GPL and you feel like your being personally flamed that people are pulling it's pants down again? Have I blundered into a Linux mailing list by chance? > > > > If you want the thread dead, don't keep it alive by continuing to add > > to it. > > Let me be the second person to request that you let this thread > die yet once again. > And let me repeat that if you want it to die, stop posting. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 05:56:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305CF16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:56:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA52D43D1F for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:56:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iA25u6v00647 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:56:06 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041101083738.053d32e8@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:56:09 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org] > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:41 AM > To: jsd@jdyson.com; Miguel Mendez > Cc: TM4525@aol.com; chat@freebsd.org; Ted Mittelstaedt > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > At 08:32 AM 11/1/2004, jsd@jdyson.com wrote: > > >I don't believe that it is useless to keep the awareness of the > >licnese differences alive. > > It is not at all useless; in fact, it is very important. If the > differences are not pointed out, then the GPL and its malicious > anti-programmer, anti-business agenda wins by default. Only because of how the GPL people act, Brett. It is (at least, to me) a given that whether or not the BSD people speak up or remain silent on this issue, that the pro-GPL people are going to continue banging away on the GPL drums. I would agree to stop pointing out the differences if the GPL folks stopped telling everyone at every chance they get that GPL=Free Software. However, they continue to do this whether or not the BSD people spend time pointing out the differences. They do this when we aren't focusing on the differences and they do this when we are. It is like a big machine that continually day and night beats a 55 gallon steel drum, on and on and on without stopping. That is why if we give it up, that they are going to win by default. It is because they never, ever, shut up. > If someone > preaches that licensing differences are meaningless, then he is > either unintentionally or intentionally pushing Stallman's agenda, Absolutely. Stallman's agenda is to replace all software licenses, including the BSD copyright, with GPL. Arguing that the differences is not significant is just a prelude to the argument that "well as long as they are meaningless, why don't you just go ahead and use GPL, it's better" Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 06:45:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A3B16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:45:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8A343D54 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:45:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iA26iwv00812; Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:44:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Paul Robinson" , "Brett Glass" Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:44:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041101162738.GE95472@iconoplex.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 06:45:05 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Robinson [mailto:wiggy@servitor.co.uk]On Behalf Of Paul > Robinson > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 8:28 AM > To: Brett Glass > Cc: jsd@jdyson.com; Miguel Mendez; TM4525@aol.com; chat@freebsd.org; Ted > Mittelstaedt > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > > I honestly believe, joking aside, Stallman's original vision was about > producing a system for developers, not for users. Bill Jolitz thought the same thing about BSD, originally. Even said this explicitly. > > Plus, playing Devil's advocate, BSD has its own faults. > I would argue the faults are due to the faults of the copyright system at least how it's implemented in the United States. Speaking as a copyright holder who has got financial gain from copyrights, (although not a huge amount) death + 70 years is rediculous. It was a good thought that copyright be maintained to creators death. They wanted to get away from the sad stories of creators of materpieces dying penniless, while others made millions off their creations. That has been accomplished, although I am a bit uneasy with even this as being too long. But today, copyright has been abused and it is destroying creativity. Look up cases like Kahle v. Ashcroft to understand why. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 07:27:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 804D516A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:27:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D2643D45 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:27:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) iA27RUH3011088; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:27:30 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id iA27RTqj011086; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:27:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:27:29 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Message-ID: <20041102072729.GA11077@online.fr> References: <126eac4804110106127610fe07@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Josh Ockert Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:27:33 -0000 Ted Mittelstaedt said on Nov 1, 2004 at 21:03:45: > > Most of us come from Linux > > That is a rather illogical view don't you think? The majority of users > of computers out there start out as Windows users, this is pretty well > proven by innumerable marketing surveys. Therefore it stands to reason > that of the newbiews to FreeBSD that Windows users, not Linux users, > are going to be the majority, purely because of the numbers. Actually, I very much doubt that argument. Most windows users have never heard of FreeBSD and, even if they have encountered the name somewhere, would not be motivated to go out and try it. An increasing number are getting interested in linux though. It is linux users (and users of other unix machines, dwindling in number) who may go out and try FreeBSD, because they have a better appreciation of what it may offer them. It's like saying most people who listen to Schoenberg come from the rock world rather than the classical music world, because there are so many more rock music listeners than classical music listeners. > Also I can't help but point out that my book covered the newbie > coming into FreeBSD from WINDOWS not from LINUX. I very much doubt > it would have been accepted for publication if it had assumed newbies > to FreeBSD came from Linux, not Windows. Publishing is pretty much > a numbers game. That's a different matter... Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 08:29:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444F916A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:29:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C690543D46 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:29:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) iA28TIv01135; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:29:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:29:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20041102072729.GA11077@online.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Josh Ockert Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 08:29:27 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@online.fr] > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:27 PM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: Josh Ockert; chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence > > > Ted Mittelstaedt said on Nov 1, 2004 at 21:03:45: > > > > Most of us come from Linux > > > > That is a rather illogical view don't you think? The majority of users > > of computers out there start out as Windows users, this is pretty well > > proven by innumerable marketing surveys. Therefore it stands to reason > > that of the newbiews to FreeBSD that Windows users, not Linux users, > > are going to be the majority, purely because of the numbers. > > Actually, I very much doubt that argument. Most windows users have > never heard of FreeBSD and, even if they have encountered the name > somewhere, would not be motivated to go out and try it. An increasing > number are getting interested in linux though. It is linux users (and > users of other unix machines, dwindling in number) who may go out and > try FreeBSD, because they have a better appreciation of what it may > offer them. > Anyone who started on Linux is going to say that because of brainwashing by the Linux crowd. But you need to pay more attention to what people are saying on Usenet, not just the mailing lists. There's also a growing number of MacOS X crossovers to FreeBSD. There are, after all, more MacOS X desktop users than Linux desktop users. ( I wouldn't say the same thing about server users, though. Lots of Windows users are on UNIX servers and don't realize it) You have to face it, despite what the Linux crowd wants people to believe, there just isn't that big a penetration of Linux into the desktop market at the current time. Lots of people are betting that this isn't going to stay this way, and there's a lot of software out there people have written for Linux to try to attract those desktop users. And of course, there's serious penetration into the server market which is why Microsoft is fighting it so hard - they sell far fewer server products than desktop products, at a much higher unit price, and penetration into this market by Linux impacts their bottom line much harder than equivalent penetration into the desktop market does. > It's like saying most people who listen to Schoenberg come from the > rock world rather than the classical music world, because there are so > many more rock music listeners than classical music listeners. > Well, perhaps it is, but as a matter of fact, most classical music listeners DO come from rock music listeners, didn't you know that? You think I'm joking, go to http://www.arbitron.com and read their reports. Classical is the most popular for adults 55-64 and rock is most popular for 35-55. Arbitron has a simple explanation for this "after age 35 format preferences start to change" In effect, their research shows that people may grow up on rock but they grow out of it and grow into classical. As Arbitron is equivalent to the Nielsons for radio, I think they do know what they are talking about. Just keep in mind that the world often doesen't follow the simplest and most obvious explanation. Ted From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 09:38:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF94916A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:38:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix4-2.free.fr (postfix4-2.free.fr [213.228.0.176]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B6843D46 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:38:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp2-q.free.fr (imp2-q.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3882357B4; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp2-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 39F4F5A071; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from proxy.imsc.res.in (proxy.imsc.res.in [203.199.209.81]) by imp2-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:37 +0100 Message-ID: <1099388317.4187559d1d4fe@imp2-q.free.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:38:37 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 203.199.209.81 cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Josh Ockert Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:38:39 -0000 Quoting Ted Mittelstaedt : > > It's like saying most people who listen to Schoenberg come from the > > rock world rather than the classical music world, because there are so > > many more rock music listeners than classical music listeners. > > > > Well, perhaps it is, but as a matter of fact, most classical music > listeners DO come from rock music listeners, didn't you know that? I doubt anyone jumps from Metallica to Schoenberg. They may go to other, more accessible forms of classical music and gravitate from there. Similarly I doubt many people jump from Windows to FreeBSD, without some exposure to other forms of Unix (not necessarily Linux but these days that's the most likely candidate, and I'm not ignoring Mac OS X: most Mac OS X users I've met were either already familiar with Unix or hadn't bothered to learn anything about its Unix roots.) (That's an analogy, not exact. I don't like Schoenberg and twelve-tone music myself, though I do like a lot of other "modern" 20th-century composers.) I think there's absolutely no question, except among hardened FreeBSD oldtimers who haven't seen the real world in years, that Linux offers a much lower entry barrier to users who've forgotten what a command line is, even in its crude MSDOS form. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 11:31:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DC916A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:31:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2127143D3F for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:31:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-67-169-203-186.client.comcast.net[67.169.203.186]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20041102113154016000tn1ne> (Authid: europax); Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:31:55 +0000 Message-ID: <418770B5.4010909@pythonemproject.com> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 03:34:13 -0800 From: Rob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <1099388317.4187559d1d4fe@imp2-q.free.fr> In-Reply-To: <1099388317.4187559d1d4fe@imp2-q.free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Josh Ockert cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: rob@pythonemproject.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:31:58 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Quoting Ted Mittelstaedt : > > >>>It's like saying most people who listen to Schoenberg come from the >>>rock world rather than the classical music world, because there are so >>>many more rock music listeners than classical music listeners. >>> >>> >>> >>Well, perhaps it is, but as a matter of fact, most classical music >>listeners DO come from rock music listeners, didn't you know that? >> >> > >I doubt anyone jumps from Metallica to Schoenberg. They may go to other, >more accessible forms of classical music and gravitate from there. >Similarly I doubt many people jump from Windows to FreeBSD, without >some exposure to other forms of Unix (not necessarily Linux but these days >that's the most likely candidate, and I'm not ignoring Mac OS X: most >Mac OS X users I've met were either already familiar with Unix or hadn't >bothered to learn anything about its Unix roots.) > >(That's an analogy, not exact. I don't like Schoenberg and twelve-tone music >myself, though I do like a lot of other "modern" 20th-century composers.) > >I think there's absolutely no question, except among hardened FreeBSD >oldtimers who haven't seen the real world in years, that Linux offers a >much lower entry barrier to users who've forgotten what a command line is, >even in its crude MSDOS form. > >Rahul >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > Thought you all might enjoy this (or get pissed). Mozilla has started marking this thread as SPAM. LOL. I had nothing to do with it. Rob. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 12:53:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95EC16A4DB for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5ED43D2F for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:53:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vkaul@ma.rr.com) Received: from gogobera.ma.rr.com (dhcp024-160-199-227.ma.rr.com [24.160.199.227])iA2CrnJl001345; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:53:49 -0500 (EST) To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , chat@freebsd.org References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:53:43 -0500 From: "Vijay Kaul" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (Win32, build 3869) X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:53:53 -0000 On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:45:16 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad@stop.mail-abuse.org] >> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:32 PM >> To: Ted Mittelstaedt >> Cc: chat@freebsd.org >> Subject: RE: GPL vs BSD Licence >> >> >> At 3:05 PM -0800 2004-10-31, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> <-snip-> > I say the speed of light is so-and-so many miles per second well, I'm > right, right? No. It depends on how strong any gravitational > fields happen to be that are near what I'm observing. In short, > contextual understanding. <-snip-> IANAPhysicist but, isn't the speed of light in a vacuum constant? Well, it may be being actively debated by cosmologists attempting to explain the origins of the universe; but, VSL aside... the speed of light is 2.998something x10^8 m/s in vacuum. Sorry, but this is chat, and I figured I ask. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 13:21:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE6C16A4CE; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:21:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7620743D62; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:21:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iA2DLSJl023193; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA2DLRh7040097; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA2DLQ82040096; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:17 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411020821.23778.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: Vijay Kaul Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:21:32 -0000 --nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 02 November 2004 07:53 am, Vijay Kaul wrote: > On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:45:16 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt > > I say the speed of light is so-and-so many miles per second well, I'm > > right, right? No. It depends on how strong any gravitational > > fields happen to be that are near what I'm observing. In short, > > contextual understanding. > > <-snip-> > > IANAPhysicist but, isn't the speed of light in a vacuum constant? Well, it > may be being actively debated by cosmologists attempting to explain the > origins of the universe; but, VSL aside... the speed of light is > 2.998something x10^8 m/s in vacuum. > > Sorry, but this is chat, and I figured I ask. Yes, it is a fixed speed in a vacuum; it gets redshifted in a graviational= =20 field. Marc. =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBh4nTg1EgpGw750IRAm+gAJ0ZvTzYdnLVcFIAbEpnnzwny8e+GQCgsQUe hAvvgdXBmtxD5x3xfLVlTGw= =CWJm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 13:21:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE6C16A4CE; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:21:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7620743D62; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:21:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iA2DLSJl023193; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA2DLRh7040097; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA2DLQ82040096; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:21:17 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411020821.23778.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Ted Mittelstaedt cc: Vijay Kaul Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:21:32 -0000 --nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 02 November 2004 07:53 am, Vijay Kaul wrote: > On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:45:16 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt > > I say the speed of light is so-and-so many miles per second well, I'm > > right, right? No. It depends on how strong any gravitational > > fields happen to be that are near what I'm observing. In short, > > contextual understanding. > > <-snip-> > > IANAPhysicist but, isn't the speed of light in a vacuum constant? Well, it > may be being actively debated by cosmologists attempting to explain the > origins of the universe; but, VSL aside... the speed of light is > 2.998something x10^8 m/s in vacuum. > > Sorry, but this is chat, and I figured I ask. Yes, it is a fixed speed in a vacuum; it gets redshifted in a graviational= =20 field. Marc. =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBh4nTg1EgpGw750IRAm+gAJ0ZvTzYdnLVcFIAbEpnnzwny8e+GQCgsQUe hAvvgdXBmtxD5x3xfLVlTGw= =CWJm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3328612.UMuIHaq9o8-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 18:25:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD0616A4D0 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:25:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (storm.uk.FreeBSD.org [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9C843D53 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:25:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iA2IPE1F029956; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:25:14 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)iA2IPDlI029948; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:25:13 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grovel.grondar.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iA2ILI3N092806; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:21:18 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.0 06/18/2004 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Marc Ramirez In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 02 Nov 2004 08:21:17 EST." <200411020821.23778.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:21:18 +0000 From: Mark Murray cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:25:34 -0000 Marc Ramirez writes: > > IANAPhysicist but, isn't the speed of light in a vacuum constant? Well, it > > may be being actively debated by cosmologists attempting to explain the > > origins of the universe; but, VSL aside... the speed of light is > > 2.998something x10^8 m/s in vacuum. > > > > Sorry, but this is chat, and I figured I ask. > > Yes, it is a fixed speed in a vacuum; it gets redshifted in a graviational field. Not quite. The Speed Of Light in a Vacuum Constant is constant in all inertial frames of reference, and is exactly 299792458 m/s. In other media (air, water etc, it may be slower than this. It is never faster. If the originator of the light is moving away from you, atomic spectra in the light are shifted towards the red end of the spectrum ("redshift"). If the originator of the light is moving towards you, atomic spectra are blueshifted. This is called the Doppler shift. Gravity may bend light beams. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 19:12:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AC916A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:12:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CFD743D2F for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:12:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iA2JClHH013642; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA2JCk1f041393; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA2JCkBt041392; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: Mark Murray Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:12:36 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2046417.hs6hh9XWvZ"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411021412.44009.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:12:59 -0000 --nextPart2046417.hs6hh9XWvZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 02 November 2004 01:21 pm, Mark Murray wrote: > Marc Ramirez writes: > > > IANAPhysicist but, isn't the speed of light in a vacuum constant? Wel= l, > > > it may be being actively debated by cosmologists attempting to explain > > > the origins of the universe; but, VSL aside... the speed of light is > > > 2.998something x10^8 m/s in vacuum. > > > > > > Sorry, but this is chat, and I figured I ask. > > > > Yes, it is a fixed speed in a vacuum; it gets redshifted in a > > graviational field. Again, I will preface by saying I am a professional doofus and amateur=20 windbag. > Not quite. The Speed Of Light in a Vacuum Constant is constant in all > inertial frames of reference, and is exactly 299792458 m/s. In other media > (air, water etc, it may be slower than this. It is never faster. True. More precisely, the slowing of light within materials can be derived= =20 from first principles by assuming a fixed SoL, c, and factoring in the time= =20 involved in absorption/re-emission of photons by the molecules. > If the originator of the light is moving away from you, atomic spectra in > the light are shifted towards the red end of the spectrum ("redshift"). If > the originator of the light is moving towards you, atomic spectra are > blueshifted. This is called the Doppler shift. All true. > Gravity may bend light beams. More precisely, gravity is what we call the curvature of spacetime. Light= =20 always heads in the straighest possible line, but in a curved spacetime... = =20 Also, if light is emitted in an area of lower potential and is absorbed in = an=20 area of higher potential (e.g., from Sun to Earth) it will be redshifted.=20 Other way around, it will be blueshifted. If you are using the frequency of= =20 light as a clock (and you basically have no other choice), you will notice= =20 this effect as "time moving more slowly around massive bodies." Marc. =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart2046417.hs6hh9XWvZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBh9wrg1EgpGw750IRAvfFAJ9BLhdLo3GHv0FQG1EPJwu5MNLYiACbBO7L GUNJ9G8uHk+WwcEJGtQCVUA= =SUDy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2046417.hs6hh9XWvZ-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 19:27:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388AA16A4D0 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:27:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E981C43D5E for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:27:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krylon@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 24632 invoked by uid 65534); 2 Nov 2004 19:27:30 -0000 Received: from i538758DE.versanet.de (EHLO [192.168.0.13]) (83.135.88.222) by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 02 Nov 2004 20:27:30 +0100 X-Authenticated: #685629 Message-ID: <4187DF9D.1080508@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:27:25 +0100 From: Benjamin Walkenhorst User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20041025) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> In-Reply-To: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Marc Ramirez cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:27:35 -0000 Hello, Mark Murray wrote: >frames of reference, and is exactly 299792458 m/s. In other media (air, water > > I really hate to do this, but it's *km* per second, not *m*, right? At least I remember "about three houndred thousand kilometres per second". Kind regards, Benjamin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 19:32:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB1616A4D4 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:32:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 845F143D4C for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:32:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flowers@nekulturny.org) Received: from pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr3so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.179]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I6K00JAKGX2XID0@l-daemon> for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:31:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml6so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.150]) by pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I6K00B4YGX22S60@pd3mr3so.prod.shaw.ca> for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:31:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from procyon.nekulturny.org (S0106000c41b2b9a3.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.45.143]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6K003AOGX2P2@l-daemon> for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:31:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from procyon.nekulturny.org (localhost.nekulturny.org [127.0.0.1]) iA2JVnlL001236; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:31:50 -0700 (MST envelope-from flowers@nekulturny.org) Received: (from flowers@localhost) by procyon.nekulturny.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iA2JVnmI001235; Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:31:49 -0700 (MST envelope-from flowers) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:31:49 -0700 From: Danny MacMillan In-reply-to: <1099388317.4187559d1d4fe@imp2-q.free.fr> To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-id: <20041102193149.GA1134@procyon.nekulturny.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline References: <1099388317.4187559d1d4fe@imp2-q.free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org cc: Josh Ockert cc: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: GPL vs BSD Licence X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:32:45 -0000 On Tue, Nov 02, 2004 at 02:38:37AM -0700, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Quoting Ted Mittelstaedt : > > > It's like saying most people who listen to Schoenberg come from the > > > rock world rather than the classical music world, because there are so > > > many more rock music listeners than classical music listeners. > > > > Well, perhaps it is, but as a matter of fact, most classical music > > listeners DO come from rock music listeners, didn't you know that? > > I doubt anyone jumps from Metallica to Schoenberg. They may go to other, > more accessible forms of classical music and gravitate from there. > Similarly I doubt many people jump from Windows to FreeBSD, without > some exposure to other forms of Unix (not necessarily Linux but these days > that's the most likely candidate, and I'm not ignoring Mac OS X: most > Mac OS X users I've met were either already familiar with Unix or hadn't > bothered to learn anything about its Unix roots.) > > (That's an analogy, not exact. I don't like Schoenberg and twelve-tone > music > myself, though I do like a lot of other "modern" 20th-century composers.) > > I think there's absolutely no question, except among hardened FreeBSD > oldtimers who haven't seen the real world in years, that Linux offers a > much lower entry barrier to users who've forgotten what a command line is, > even in its crude MSDOS form. You are making a characterization that does not apply to all Windows users. It probably applies to most Windows users, but the pool of Windows users is so large that the remaining population, that set of Windows users who haven't forgotten what a command line is, can also be (and in my experience is) quite large. Submitted for your approval: myself. I started with C-64, TRS-80, Apple II, MS-DOS, Novell DOS, OS/2, and Windows roots (guess my age :) I installed Linux before I installed FreeBSD -- in fact, I installed every distro I could get my hands on, as well as OpenBSD and FreeBSD, in a period of intensive experimentation about 3 years ago. At the time I didn't understand anything about the difference between Linux and *BSD. In fact, I understood very little about Unix, my sole experience being a brief and superficial exposure to some flavour at school. Everything was confusing to me. The amount of reading and research I had to do to figure out how to do =anything= was staggering. But in this period where everything was difficult and confusing, FreeBSD was slightly less difficult and slightly less confusing. As I became able to see the forest instead of just trees, I found FreeBSD has much to recommend it from a technical merit point of view and the design decisions to fall nicely in line with my own intuitive preferences. Linux is certainly more well known than FreeBSD. I didn't know FreeBSD existed when I started; I set out to learn Linux. To a Windows user, though, Linux is no easier to learn than FreeBSD (and is harder to learn in my opinion). I'm not a typical Windows user -- but typical Windows users 1) don't care what their operating sytstem is 2) don't know what an operating system is, and 3) will use any operating system you want, so long as it's Windows. When testing operating systems, I installed Linux before I installed FreeBSD -- but I could hardly be said to have "come from Linux". I know less about Linux than FreeBSD, and in fact of all the operating systems I've ever used, Linux is the one I've used the least. I actually have no idea which is more common, for users to come to FreeBSD from Windows or from Linux. I don't think there's any way to know without doing a survey. Just consider this one entry in the "from Windows" box. -- Danny From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 19:39:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6495416A4CF for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:39:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B78943D48 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:39:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iA2Jd8HH003162; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA2Jd8km041476; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:39:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA2Jd75n041475; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:39:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: Benjamin Walkenhorst Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:39:01 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> <4187DF9D.1080508@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <4187DF9D.1080508@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1932929.99BbeGTi93"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411021439.05903.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 19:39:12 -0000 --nextPart1932929.99BbeGTi93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 02 November 2004 02:27 pm, Benjamin Walkenhorst wrote: > Hello, > > Mark Murray wrote: > >frames of reference, and is exactly 299792458 m/s. In other media (air, > > water > > I really hate to do this, but it's *km* per second, not *m*, right? > At least I remember "about three houndred thousand kilometres per second". Right, which would put it at about three hundred million meters per second,= =20 which is what the good Mr. Murray has. ;) Marc. =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart1932929.99BbeGTi93 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBh+JZg1EgpGw750IRApP8AKCC0QGg97CqU+xN3KW9NsDIZ1632wCdHUNA klWpWKcFk+8MHIdZ9FOnDWM= =Bm+S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1932929.99BbeGTi93-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 20:24:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD1B16A4CE for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:24:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.de [213.165.64.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B517A43D67 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:24:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krylon@gmx.net) Received: (qmail 22482 invoked by uid 65534); 2 Nov 2004 20:24:42 -0000 Received: from i538758DE.versanet.de (EHLO [192.168.0.13]) (83.135.88.222) by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 02 Nov 2004 21:24:42 +0100 X-Authenticated: #685629 Message-ID: <4187ED08.9040204@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:24:40 +0100 From: Benjamin Walkenhorst User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20041025) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Ramirez References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> <4187DF9D.1080508@gmx.net> <200411021439.05903.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> In-Reply-To: <200411021439.05903.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:24:44 -0000 Marc Ramirez wrote: >>I really hate to do this, but it's *km* per second, not *m*, right? >>At least I remember "about three houndred thousand kilometres per second". >> >> > >Right, which would put it at about three hundred million meters per second, >which is what the good Mr. Murray has. ;) > > Oh man, I'm so glad I'm not a mathematician... =) Of course you're right and must have been think in centimentres... I seriously gotta get more sleep... =) Kind regards, Benjamin From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 2 20:42:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6178016A4DF for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:42:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E8543D46 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:42:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iA2KfrHH018942; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA2KfrBR041682; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:41:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA2KfhBi041681; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:41:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: Benjamin Walkenhorst Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:41:36 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> <200411021439.05903.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> <4187ED08.9040204@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <4187ED08.9040204@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart7442781.R7DJRXMi3e"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411021541.41525.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:42:05 -0000 --nextPart7442781.R7DJRXMi3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 02 November 2004 03:24 pm, Benjamin Walkenhorst wrote: > Marc Ramirez wrote: > >>I really hate to do this, but it's *km* per second, not *m*, right? > >>At least I remember "about three houndred thousand kilometres per > >> second". > > > >Right, which would put it at about three hundred million meters per > > second, which is what the good Mr. Murray has. ;) > > Oh man, I'm so glad I'm not a mathematician... =3D) > Of course you're right and must have been think in centimentres... > I seriously gotta get more sleep... =3D) My father-in-law is a high-energy physicist. Everything I forgot about=20 physics I had to re-learn. :) Marc. =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart7442781.R7DJRXMi3e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBh/EFg1EgpGw750IRAkqwAJ0QcKon6PFetHdISBs5qm+0SH624wCggV+U o23GOHXRdsiNK6RphQDzMxA= =F0tA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart7442781.R7DJRXMi3e-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 3 00:20:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5969016A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:20:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp102.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp102.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA77743D2D for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:20:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.100?) (mjeays2551@24.114.152.139 with plain) by smtp102.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 00:20:46 -0000 From: Mike Jeays To: Marc Ramirez In-Reply-To: <200411021412.44009.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> <200411021412.44009.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1099441245.761.6.camel@chaucer.jeays.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 02 Nov 2004 19:20:45 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:20:50 -0000 On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 14:12, Marc Ramirez wrote: > On Tuesday 02 November 2004 01:21 pm, Mark Murray wrote: > > Marc Ramirez writes: > > > > IANAPhysicist but, isn't the speed of light in a vacuum constant? Well, > > > > it may be being actively debated by cosmologists attempting to explain > > > > the origins of the universe; but, VSL aside... the speed of light is > > > > 2.998something x10^8 m/s in vacuum. > > > > > > > > Sorry, but this is chat, and I figured I ask. > > > > > > Yes, it is a fixed speed in a vacuum; it gets redshifted in a > > > graviational field. > > Again, I will preface by saying I am a professional doofus and amateur > windbag. > > > Not quite. The Speed Of Light in a Vacuum Constant is constant in all > > inertial frames of reference, and is exactly 299792458 m/s. In other media > > (air, water etc, it may be slower than this. It is never faster. > > True. More precisely, the slowing of light within materials can be derived > from first principles by assuming a fixed SoL, c, and factoring in the time > involved in absorption/re-emission of photons by the molecules. > > > If the originator of the light is moving away from you, atomic spectra in > > the light are shifted towards the red end of the spectrum ("redshift"). If > > the originator of the light is moving towards you, atomic spectra are > > blueshifted. This is called the Doppler shift. > > All true. > > > Gravity may bend light beams. > > More precisely, gravity is what we call the curvature of spacetime. Light > always heads in the straighest possible line, but in a curved spacetime... > Also, if light is emitted in an area of lower potential and is absorbed in an > area of higher potential (e.g., from Sun to Earth) it will be redshifted. > Other way around, it will be blueshifted. If you are using the frequency of > light as a clock (and you basically have no other choice), you will notice > this effect as "time moving more slowly around massive bodies." > > Marc. Doesn't this equate to defining the speed of light as constant, and then adjusting the metre and second appropriately? I thought the constancy of the speed of light was a basic assumption taken by Einstein; the slowing of time and reduction of lengths of moving objects, or those in a gravitational field are a consequence. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 3 01:38:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F0E16A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:38:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF32943D1F for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 01:38:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iA31cGwZ019627; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iA31cFN7042427; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:38:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iA31c7Mi042426; Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:38:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: Mike Jeays Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:37:55 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <200411021821.iA2ILI3N092806@grovel.grondar.org> <200411021412.44009.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> <1099441245.761.6.camel@chaucer.jeays.ca> In-Reply-To: <1099441245.761.6.camel@chaucer.jeays.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2433223.nXTdfhFHX6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411022038.03412.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:38:27 -0000 --nextPart2433223.nXTdfhFHX6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tuesday 02 November 2004 07:20 pm, you wrote: > On Tue, 2004-11-02 at 14:12, Marc Ramirez wrote: > > More precisely, gravity is what we call the curvature of spacetime.=20 > > Light always heads in the straighest possible line, but in a curved > > spacetime... Also, if light is emitted in an area of lower potential and > > is absorbed in an area of higher potential (e.g., from Sun to Earth) it > > will be redshifted. Other way around, it will be blueshifted. If you are > > using the frequency of light as a clock (and you basically have no other > > choice), you will notice this effect as "time moving more slowly around > > massive bodies." > > > > Marc. > > Doesn't this equate to defining the speed of light as constant, and then > adjusting the metre and second appropriately? I thought the constancy > of the speed of light was a basic assumption taken by Einstein; the > slowing of time and reduction of lengths of moving objects, or those in > a gravitational field are a consequence. Yes, that's absolutely right. In fact, one way to unify space and time und= er=20 GR is to define distance in seconds. (I remeber Grace Hopper coming on the= =20 Late Night back with Dave Letterman and giving him a piece of wire that was= a=20 nanosecond long.)=20 The invariance of the speed of light under various states of movement,=20 rotation, acceleration, and gravitation is pretty well established=20 experimentally. Relativity takes this excellent experimental agreement, an= d=20 moves it up to the status of a postulate (a.k.a. definition). The challenge= =20 now, of course, is to think up new experiments. Right now, we know of no=20 conditions where the speed of light is anything but c. But without that,=20 yes, the speed of light is defined as constant in relativity. =20 The postulates of special relativity: 1. The laws of physics are independent of the observer's reference frame. "The laws by which the states of physical systems undergo change are not=20 affected, whether these changes of state be referred to the one or the othe= r=20 of two systems of co-ordinates in uniform translatory motion." 2. The speed of light, c, is the same in all reference frames. " Any ray of light moves in the 'stationary' system of co-ordinates with t= he=20 determined velocity c, whether the ray is emitted by a stationary or by a=20 moving body. Hence velocity equals [length of] light path divided by time=20 interval [of light path], where time interval [and length are] to be taken = in=20 the sense of the definition in =A71." General Relativity extends this to: 3. Uniform acceleration is equivalent to a gravitational field (the Princip= le=20 of Equivalence). (Can't find the Einstein quote, sorry :) These are the general constraints (you'll see your comment restated as=20 postulate #2). These are the constraints (along with extra assumptions I won't go into), a= nd=20 General Relativity is an explanation of the universe which fits within thes= e=20 constraints. Like I say, so far all of these have been confirmed to a grea= t=20 degree of accuracy, so any new theories will have to either accept these=20 postulates or explain why they seem to be so pervasive. Thanks for taking my mind off Lisp! :) Marc. =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart2433223.nXTdfhFHX6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBiDZ6g1EgpGw750IRAjCnAJ9fFLU5+UuPgdgXSbizwWZE9NM5PQCff68H 4tS8bLKfFKrMLubmIghDSJA= =BDG5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2433223.nXTdfhFHX6-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 3 08:15:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336B816A4CE for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:15:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (storm.uk.FreeBSD.org [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8CC43D4C for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:15:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.uk.FreeBSD.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iA38FAlf073453; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:15:10 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost)iA38F9Vj073452; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:15:09 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grovel.grondar.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id iA38CoYL001435; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:12:50 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Message-Id: <200411030812.iA38CoYL001435@grovel.grondar.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.0 06/18/2004 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Mike Jeays From: Mark Murray In-Reply-To: Your message of "02 Nov 2004 19:20:45 EST." <1099441245.761.6.camel@chaucer.jeays.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:12:50 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speed of light? [was Re: GPL vs BSD Licence] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:15:17 -0000 [ massive trimming appied ] Mike Jeays writes: > Doesn't this equate to defining the speed of light as constant, and then > adjusting the metre and second appropriately? I thought the constancy > of the speed of light was a basic assumption taken by Einstein; the > slowing of time and reduction of lengths of moving objects, or those in > a gravitational field are a consequence. This is correct. M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 5 07:12:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91ADD16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:12:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay24-f39.bay24.hotmail.com [64.4.18.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849C843D2D for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:12:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wenheping2004@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:12:02 -0800 Received: from 218.16.41.123 by by24fd.bay24.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:11:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [218.16.41.123] X-Originating-Email: [wenheping2004@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wenheping2004@hotmail.com From: "wen heping" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:11:23 +0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb2312; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Nov 2004 07:12:02.0736 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFBE5B00:01C4C306] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:25:56 +0000 Subject: Help:why there is no distribution based on FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 07:12:03 -0000 There are so many Linux distribution such as RedHat SUSE Mandrake and ....,while it seems that there is no other distribution based on FreeBSD. Who can tell me why? Thanks in advance. Wen 20041105 _________________________________________________________________ 享用世界上最大的电子邮件系统— MSN Hotmail。 http://www.hotmail.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 5 13:32:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5143116A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:32:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gldis.ca (constans.gldis.ca [66.11.169.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E4243D49 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:32:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gldis.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA5DV8Ks046817; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:31:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Message-ID: <418B80E4.5050707@gldis.ca> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:32:20 -0500 From: Jeremy Faulkner User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (X11/20041102) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wen heping References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80rc4/561/Fri Oct 29 06:26:00 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on constans.gldis.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help:why there is no distribution based on FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:32:19 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 wen heping wrote: | There are so many Linux distribution such as RedHat SUSE Mandrake and | ....,while it seems that there is no other distribution based on | FreeBSD. Who can tell me why? | Thanks in advance. | Linux is just a kernel. FreeBSD is an entire operating system. - -- Jeremy Faulkner -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBi4Dkfb0Lle2MIEIRAiZrAJwPQFhEArehh0PWIeunlrZMRi4kwgCfdsFM YLdb+i5o7kKY7dt55/wh+Ho= =7S1N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 5 13:45:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76EBE16A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:45:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from zaphod.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E431C43D46 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:45:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: by zaphod.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id CD29F119B9; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:45:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:45:51 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Jeremy Faulkner Message-ID: <20041105134551.GE754@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <418B80E4.5050707@gldis.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bi5JUZtvcfApsciF" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <418B80E4.5050707@gldis.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: wen heping cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help:why there is no distribution based on FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:45:53 -0000 --bi5JUZtvcfApsciF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.11.05 08:32:20 -0500, Jeremy Faulkner wrote: > wen heping wrote: > | There are so many Linux distribution such as RedHat SUSE Mandrake and > | ....,while it seems that there is no other distribution based on > | FreeBSD. Who can tell me why? > | Thanks in advance. > > Linux is just a kernel. FreeBSD is an entire operating system. That being said, there is actually one... Debian GNU/kFreeBSD [1], which is a FreeBSD kernel with GNU userland. I don't see the point, but it's actually there. [1] http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --bi5JUZtvcfApsciF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBi4QPh9pcDSc1mlERAigcAJ9y3/xe7ElLn+r8vCVl3a0GKLKKTQCgnm7Y jirRVUPNKty1aQ30V4o7QYk= =6LLs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bi5JUZtvcfApsciF-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 5 15:21:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89D216A4CE; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:21:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC6B43D4C; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:21:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CQ5u8-000IJA-RQ; Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:21:32 +0000 Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:21:32 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Message-ID: <20041105152132.GC61601@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <418B80E4.5050707@gldis.ca> <20041105134551.GE754@zaphod.nitro.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20041105134551.GE754@zaphod.nitro.dk> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: wen heping cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Jeremy Faulkner Subject: Re: Help:why there is no distribution based on FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:21:24 -0000 On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:45:51PM +0100, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > That being said, there is actually one... Debian GNU/kFreeBSD [1], > which is a FreeBSD kernel with GNU userland. I don't see the point, > but it's actually there. Seeing as OpenBSD is a fork of NetBSD which in turn started from the same place as FreeBSD originally did, you could argue there are forks of code there. Plus of course, there is DragonFly whch is a fork of FreeBSD. And Darwin is a cousin, albeit one some of us don't like to spend much time with. :-) --=20 Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/=20 "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 5 18:44:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C1216A4CE for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:44:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AE243D49 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:44:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 7160 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2004 18:44:53 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 5 Nov 2004 18:44:52 -0000 Received: from [10.50.41.235] (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iA5Iim5e096153; Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:44:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:30:09 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200411051030.10193.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx cc: wen heping Subject: Re: Help:why there is no distribution based on FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:44:54 -0000 On Friday 05 November 2004 02:11 am, wen heping wrote: > There are so many Linux distribution such as RedHat SUSE Mandrake and > ....,while it seems that there is no other distribution based on FreeBSD. > Who can tell me why? > Thanks in advance. As others have said, Linux is just a kernel, and the various dists of that take the kernel and add various parts of the GNU userland to it. The BSD's OTOH are a complete operating system including kernel and userland. There are other distributions of FreeBSD however. They are usually for more specialized tasks. Examples include FreeSBIE (boots into a FreeBSD environment off of a CD), WarBSD (like WarLinux), m0n0wall, tinyBSD, picoBSD (only really for 3.x and 4.x), etc. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 6 19:31:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620DE16A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from S1.cableone.net (smtp1.cableone.net [24.116.0.227]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9722943D1D for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:31:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from fennec (unverified [24.119.122.25]) by S1.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S1) with ESMTP id 741141 for ; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:33:39 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:30:35 -0600 From: Vulpes Velox To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041106133035.16808352@fennec> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 0.9.12b (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net Subject: webnfs used for any thing? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 19:31:20 -0000 Just came across it listed in the man file for exports and got curious. I googled around a bit, but found nothing much about it other than specs and some articles dating from around 1996, but could not find any mention of any browsers or any thing ever supporting it or the like. Any hear of it actually being used in any thing or is it pretty much a dead standard? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 6 20:29:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF4116A4F8 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:29:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D322C43D2D for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:29:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A3CA185642; Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:59:29 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:59:29 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: wen heping Message-ID: <20041106202929.GD24507@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vni90+aGYgRvsTuO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help:why there is no distribution based on FreeBSD? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:29:33 -0000 --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, 5 November 2004 at 15:11:23 +0800, wen heping wrote: > There are so many Linux distribution such as RedHat SUSE Mandrake and > ....,while it seems that there is no other distribution based on FreeBSD. > Who can tell me why? Because it's not necessary? As others have said, Linux is a kernel. To make it useful, people had to package the rest of the system around it. The result is a "distribution" of the Linux kernel. FreeBSD has always been a complete system, so it doesn't need this kind of workaround. As somebody said, that doesn't stop people from trying. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBjTQpIubykFB6QiMRAlvGAJ0cdEPD7dWOd7dJQ54ohdXMU1bOJQCfaAMG a+EI8chVcn+VAfaSnuwJiFc= =cKCI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vni90+aGYgRvsTuO-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Nov 6 20:38:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D443916A4CE for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:38:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from easycgi.com (mail.easycgi.com [66.245.177.160]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD0843D39 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:38:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tommy@cnluton.com) Received: from [81.109.146.185] (HELO 192.168.0.2) by easycgi.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.3) with ESMTP id 19314547 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:40:53 -0500 From: Tommy Zhu To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:45:08 +0000 Message-Id: <1099773908.537.2.camel@mshome> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.1FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: a note from gnu-automake of bsd ports X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 20:38:51 -0000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This port is specifically designed for developers that want to create cross-platform software distributions on FreeBSD. This version of automake should _NEVER_ be used with the FreeBSD ports system as a replacement for the versioned copies of automake. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ===> Registering installation for gnu-automake-1.8.5 -------------- Just, a kind of cool! -- Tommy Zhu