From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 28 20:26:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5088616A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:26:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp104.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp104.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.82]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC6B543D5C for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:26:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.100?) (mjeays2551@24.114.152.139 with plain) by smtp104.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2004 20:26:43 -0000 From: Mike Jeays To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1101673603.1100.68.camel@chaucer> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.4 Date: 28 Nov 2004 15:26:43 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: SATA disk experience X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:26:45 -0000 I have just borrowed a brand new Pentium 4 3.6 GHz machine from the office, intending to use it as an open source demonstration machine. To my surprise, it has no IDE disk, only a SATA drive, which I have not used before personally. Fedora Core 1 and Suse Enterprise Server completely failed to install, complaining about "no disk drive". FreeBSD 5.3 installed perfectly, and runs like the wind! Hats off again to the FreeBSD team. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Nov 28 23:05:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F8616A4CE for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:05:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from schlepper.zs64.net (schlepper.zs64.net [212.12.50.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A11443D2D for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:05:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (schlepper [212.12.50.230]) by schlepper.zs64.net (8.13.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id iASN5CCs073954 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:05:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stb@lassitu.de) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Stefan Bethke Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:05:12 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Subject: GrokLaw managed to get a copy of the agreement and is publishing it legally X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:05:16 -0000 Not that much practical impact, but quite interesting historically none the less, Groklaw managed to obtain a copy of the AT&T and UCB settlement that they are allowed to re-publish. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20041126130302760 (Sorry to waste regular Growlaw and /. readers time.) -- Stefan Bethke Fon +49 170 346 0140 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 02:11:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A0C16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:11:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD3C43D39 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:11:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:08:50 -0600 Message-ID: <41AA857B.2000206@daleco.biz> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:12:11 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20041023 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Jeays References: <1101673603.1100.68.camel@chaucer> In-Reply-To: <1101673603.1100.68.camel@chaucer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2004 02:08:51.0402 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EC712A0:01C4D5B8] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SATA disk experience X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:11:58 -0000 Mike Jeays wrote: >I have just borrowed a brand new Pentium 4 3.6 GHz machine from the >office, intending to use it as an open source demonstration machine. > >To my surprise, it has no IDE disk, only a SATA drive, which I have not >used before personally. > >Fedora Core 1 and Suse Enterprise Server completely failed to install, >complaining about "no disk drive". > >FreeBSD 5.3 installed perfectly, and runs like the wind! Hats off again >to the FreeBSD team. > > > Woo Hoo! And I second that; FBSD's a great thing, even if the mascot looks evil sometimes... Wonder if you should have cross-posted this to advocacy@? Not too late to forward it, if you want to .... Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 02:46:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7561F16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:46:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.texas.rr.com [24.93.47.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B80843D45 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:46:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from afabian@austin.rr.com) Received: from turingmachine.mentalsiege.net (cs70112247-52.austin.rr.com [70.112.247.52])iAT2k5J5027434 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:46:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from turingmachine.mentalsiege.net (turingmachine.mentalsiege.net [127.0.0.1])iAT2k2dF023415 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:46:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from afabian@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net) Received: (from afabian@localhost)iAT2k22w023414 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:46:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from afabian) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:46:02 -0600 From: Adam Fabian To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:46:08 -0000 Was reading the CVS all list, and it's gone. I, for one, kind of liked it. It was a bit of a shock the first time, comparing with 4.x, but it didn't take long to get used to it, and it's kind of useful. Oh well. -- Adam Fabian (afabian@austin.rr.com) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 15:00:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D3116A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccmmhc92.asp.att.net (sccmmhc92.asp.att.net [204.127.203.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2105043D58 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from [10.0.0.10] (12-218-40-24.client.mchsi.com[12.218.40.24]) by sccmmhc92.asp.att.net (sccmmhc92) with ESMTP id <20041129150047m9200k11pne>; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:47 +0000 From: Josh Paetzel To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:58:35 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200411290858.35715.josh@tcbug.org> Subject: SparcStation 10 keyboard X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:00:48 -0000 Has anyone ever found an adapter that will allow you to use a SS10's keyboard on a PC? It has what looks like a PS/2 connector on it, but the mouse is plugged into the keyboard, I doubt that it will work to just plug the keyboard into the PC's PS/2 socket. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 15:20:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F246816A4E4 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:20:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from redtick.homeunix.com (adsl-68-92-112-158.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net [68.92.112.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D7C43D41 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:20:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from boxend@redtick.homeunix.com) Received: from redtick.homeunix.com (localhost.homeunix.com [127.0.0.1]) by redtick.homeunix.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id iATFK7UW053420 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:20:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from boxend@redtick.homeunix.com) Received: (from boxend@localhost) by redtick.homeunix.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id iATFK7Tt053419 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:20:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from boxend) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:20:07 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Message-Id: <200411291520.iATFK7Tt053419@redtick.homeunix.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Google toolbar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:20:33 -0000 I notice in the last 2 weeks or so a new entry in my Sarg-Squid reports, google toolbar traffic, may be for checking for updates or tracking surfing habits, it seems to rotate one hour later each night. Has anyone else noticed this in their reports? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 15:47:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3778516A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:47:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smilodon.rfc822.net (adsl-68-92-27-201.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net [68.92.27.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0381D43D46 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:47:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pde@rfc822.net) Received: by smilodon.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 3F7171B733; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:47:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:47:37 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041129154737.GA11960@rfc822.net> References: <200411290858.35715.josh@tcbug.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200411290858.35715.josh@tcbug.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Message-Flag: OUTLOOK ERROR: Message contains Win32.Dumb.Outlook.Behaviour virus. Subject: Re: SparcStation 10 keyboard X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:47:38 -0000 On Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 08:58:35 +0000, Josh Paetzel wrote: >Has anyone ever found an adapter that will allow you to use a SS10's >keyboard on a PC? It has what looks like a PS/2 connector on it, but >the mouse is plugged into the keyboard, I doubt that it will work to >just plug the keyboard into the PC's PS/2 socket. > If you're handy with hardware, this can be done. It's not trivial, but it *is* possible. There are quite a ew step-by-step guides out there; google for "type 5 keyboard" pc adapter -Pete From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 16:30:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1209A16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rockridge.uits.indiana.edu (rockridge.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC85143D54 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:30:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dscheidt@attglobal.net) Received: from mail-relay.iu.edu (stjoseph.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.78]) iATGUNQU002574; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cs06.cs.iusb.edu (cs06.cs.iusb.edu [149.161.10.26]) (authenticated bits=0)iATGUFFd024230; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:30:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: dscheidt@cs06.cs.iusb.edu To: Pete Ehlke In-Reply-To: <20041129154737.GA11960@rfc822.net> Message-ID: References: <200411290858.35715.josh@tcbug.org> <20041129154737.GA11960@rfc822.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SparcStation 10 keyboard X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:30:32 -0000 On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Pete Ehlke wrote: > On Mon Nov 29, 2004 at 08:58:35 +0000, Josh Paetzel wrote: > >Has anyone ever found an adapter that will allow you to use a SS10's > >keyboard on a PC? It has what looks like a PS/2 connector on it, but > >the mouse is plugged into the keyboard, I doubt that it will work to > >just plug the keyboard into the PC's PS/2 socket. > > > If you're handy with hardware, this can be done. It's not trivial, but > it *is* possible. There are quite a ew step-by-step guides out there; > google for "type 5 keyboard" pc adapter I bought one once, many years ago. You may still be able to get one. It was not cheap, more than a good keyboard would have cost. David From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 17:14:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E80916A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:14:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0442243D55 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:14:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp2-q.free.fr (imp2-q.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EC7C109; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:14:14 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp2-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 3410D194D3; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:14:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from 219.64.140.252 ([219.64.140.252]) by imp2-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:14:14 +0100 Message-ID: <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:14:14 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Adam Fabian References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> In-Reply-To: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 219.64.140.252 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:14:15 -0000 Quoting Adam Fabian : > Was reading the CVS all list, and it's gone. I, for one, kind of > liked it. It was a bit of a shock the first time, comparing with 4.x, > but it didn't take long to get used to it, and it's kind of useful. It's very useful. And it lives on in Dragonfly, with different ascii art. More evidence that FreeBSD is losing all touch with regular users. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 17:17:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C463016A4CE; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618D843D5E; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:17:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c-67-169-203-186.client.comcast.net[67.169.203.186]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004112917173501200ildtoe>; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:17:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41AB5A3F.8070200@pythonemproject.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:19:59 -0800 From: Rob User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1101673603.1100.68.camel@chaucer> <41AA857B.2000206@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <41AA857B.2000206@daleco.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SATA disk experience/ SATA DVD+RW X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: rob@pythonemproject.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:17:36 -0000 Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > Mike Jeays wrote: > >> I have just borrowed a brand new Pentium 4 3.6 GHz machine from the >> office, intending to use it as an open source demonstration machine. >> >> To my surprise, it has no IDE disk, only a SATA drive, which I have not >> used before personally. >> >> Fedora Core 1 and Suse Enterprise Server completely failed to install, >> complaining about "no disk drive". >> >> FreeBSD 5.3 installed perfectly, and runs like the wind! Hats off again >> to the FreeBSD team. >> >> >> > > Woo Hoo! And I second that; FBSD's a great thing, even if > the mascot looks evil sometimes... > > Wonder if you should have cross-posted this to advocacy@? > Not too late to forward it, if you want to .... > > Kevin Kinsey > DaleCo, S.P. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Hi Kevin and all, I just bought a beautiful Plextor SATA DVD+RW, etc, etc. Am I screwed, or is this going to work? I didn't see anything in the dmesg related to this. But it is on my AMD64 machine with 5.3-RELEASE. Generic kernel modified for IPFilter and audio, thats all. Even XP-64 beta won't recognize this thing. Rob. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 17:23:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD6416A4D2 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:23:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DFC43D39 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:23:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7293D37; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:23:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Rahul Siddharthan Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:23:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41AB14CF.28995.7F450DD1@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:23:44 -0000 On 29 Nov 2004 at 18:14, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > More evidence that FreeBSD is losing all touch with regular users. Yes. Exactly... huh? Oh yeah, we're missing a ;) above. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 18:16:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A511F16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:16:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix4-2.free.fr (postfix4-2.free.fr [213.228.0.176]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E8F43D5C for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:16:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp4-q.free.fr (imp4-q.free.fr [212.27.42.4]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA94235660; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:16:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp4-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id B96E9FF37; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:16:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from 219.64.140.252 ([219.64.140.252]) by imp4-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:16:02 +0100 Message-ID: <1101752162.41ab6762ab0b2@imp4-q.free.fr> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:16:02 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dan Langille References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <41AB14CF.28995.7F450DD1@localhost> In-Reply-To: <41AB14CF.28995.7F450DD1@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 219.64.140.252 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:16:05 -0000 Quoting Dan Langille : > On 29 Nov 2004 at 18:14, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > More evidence that FreeBSD is losing all touch with regular users. > > Yes. Exactly... huh? Oh yeah, we're missing a ;) above. No, no smiley. But I agree I can't speak for all regular users. I'm speaking for myself, and at various times others have said the same for themselves. I used to like FreeBSD -- the system and the community. I'm no longer comfortable with either. The change began, for me, when Matt Dillon was chucked out: it seemed odd then but it now seems just another example of how new thinking is simply not tolerated. My own capacity for contributing is very limited, but some time back I made a posting offering to try upgrade the system's man command to the most recent GNU version (which offers the nice feature that you can read a manpage foo.1 in your current directory with "man ./foo.1" without installing it). As I expected, I received not a single constructive comment, but several comments on why it was not necessary because you can use a groff command to read a manpage page instead. In fact there were three mails making corrections to the exact groff command required, but the irony of expecting regular users to know all this seemed lost on the posters. That kind of thinking pervades FreeBSD. The removal of the login menu is just the latest example. I now use Dragonfly for self-education and Linux for something that works with my hardware. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 18:22:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F39116A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:22:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C10C43D55 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:22:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6243D37; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:22:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Rahul Siddharthan Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:22:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41AB229A.26868.7F7AEE0D@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1101752162.41ab6762ab0b2@imp4-q.free.fr> References: <41AB14CF.28995.7F450DD1@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:22:34 -0000 On 29 Nov 2004 at 19:16, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I used to like FreeBSD -- the system and the community. I'm no longer > comfortable with either. Quite clearly, by your subscription, you've not severed all ties. Best wishes. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 18:35:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3041916A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:35:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix4-2.free.fr (postfix4-2.free.fr [213.228.0.176]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C3343D2D for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:35:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp6-q.free.fr (imp6-q.free.fr [212.27.42.6]) by postfix4-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8F02358A1; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:35:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp6-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 3FE121F90B; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:35:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from 219.64.140.252 ([219.64.140.252]) by imp6-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <1101753300.41ab6bd4f3f6e@imp6-q.free.fr> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:35:00 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dan Langille References: <41AB14CF.28995.7F450DD1@localhost> <41AB229A.26868.7F7AEE0D@localhost> In-Reply-To: <41AB229A.26868.7F7AEE0D@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 219.64.140.252 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:35:04 -0000 Quoting Dan Langille : > Quite clearly, by your subscription, you've not severed all ties. I'm not subscribed. There are online archives, which I glance at now and then. Some cool things do still happen in FreeBSD, like the NDISulator. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 18:40:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826FD16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:40:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FF043D5E for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:40:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EFD3D37; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:40:14 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Rahul Siddharthan Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:40:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41AB26BE.16540.7F8B1CFF@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1101753300.41ab6bd4f3f6e@imp6-q.free.fr> References: <41AB229A.26868.7F7AEE0D@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:40:15 -0000 On 29 Nov 2004 at 19:35, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Quoting Dan Langille : > > Quite clearly, by your subscription, you've not severed all ties. > > I'm not subscribed. There are online archives, which I glance at now > and then. Subscription, participation, whatever you want to call it. > Some cool things do still happen in FreeBSD, like the NDISulator. Glad to know. Thanks for the words of encouragement. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 21:42:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A3C16A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:42:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4978B43D5A for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:42:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ACFA3356D9 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:42:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:42:18 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041129224218.137a94bc.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.99-gtk2-20041024 (GTK+ 2.4.13; i386-portbld-freebsd5.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; boundary="Signature=_Mon__29_Nov_2004_22_42_18_+0100_ZBe3bXrdpmoc1RVE" Subject: EuroBSDCon 2004 article on Onlamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:42:22 -0000 --Signature=_Mon__29_Nov_2004_22_42_18_+0100_ZBe3bXrdpmoc1RVE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I've seen this posted on /. : http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/11/24/eurobsdcon2004.html Makes an interesting read for those of us who couldn't attend. Technical talks aside, I've found Dru's "But I'm not a developer...how can I contribute to open source?" very interesting. Certainly something that it's overlooked too often in open source projects. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez | lea gfx_lib(pc),a1 http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org | moveq #0,d0 PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 | move.l 4.w,a6 Note: All HTML mail goes to /dev/null | jsr -552(a6) --Signature=_Mon__29_Nov_2004_22_42_18_+0100_ZBe3bXrdpmoc1RVE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBq5e9nLctrNyFFPERArULAJ9Kg6725v4HFIpLWqeDXU8TM5h9fgCgk5qZ QoKxReH1hS7Kaq6Ue4EGbFY= =nYdU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Mon__29_Nov_2004_22_42_18_+0100_ZBe3bXrdpmoc1RVE-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 29 23:31:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 835F916A4CE for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:31:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BC743D55 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:31:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A982B3D37; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:31:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Miguel Mendez Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:31:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41AB6B04.22969.8095CC0E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20041129224218.137a94bc.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: EuroBSDCon 2004 article on Onlamp X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:31:32 -0000 posted again, this time with the correct CC. Sorry about that. On 29 Nov 2004 at 22:42, Miguel Mendez wrote: > I've seen this posted on /. : > > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/11/24/eurobsdcon2004.html > > Makes an interesting read for those of us who couldn't attend. Technical > talks aside, I've found Dru's "But I'm not a developer...how can I > contribute to open source?" very interesting. Certainly something that > it's overlooked too often in open source projects. The following might be useful: http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/bsd/2002/01/17/Big_Scary_Daemons.html http://www.freebsddiary.org/advocacy.php -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 00:59:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C3316A4CF for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:59:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte215.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30AC543D41 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:59:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from [192.168.1.16] (w16.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.16]) iAU0xN8m010072 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:59:24 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,MISSING_HEADERS,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:59:29 -0000 --On Monday, November 29, 2004 6:14 PM +0100 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Quoting Adam Fabian : >> Was reading the CVS all list, and it's gone. I, for one, kind of >> liked it. It was a bit of a shock the first time, comparing with 4.x, >> but it didn't take long to get used to it, and it's kind of useful. > > It's very useful. And it lives on in Dragonfly, with different ascii art. > > More evidence that FreeBSD is losing all touch with regular users. What is a regular user? I use FreeBSD quite regularly. I am a regular guy and I use FreeBSD. Using FreeBSD keeps me, he-hem, regular. I will assume I am qualified to comment, as a regular user. The beastie menu is just another level of complexity. It has very little to do with anything. I had to learn about Forth in order to figure out how to turn it off. Learning about Forth is not something I wanted to do. Forth is hardly a regular user sort of thing. Sure, once I dilly dallied in the docs, I figured out what was going on. It did take time. "Regular user" as the term may be applied to FreeBSD and the user community has a vastly different meaning than regular user in other computing circles. The absence of the boot menu is substantially more regular to FreeBSD in my opinion than its presence. FreeBSD is not the operating system where cutesy is valued. As far as Matt Dillon goes, he is a big boy now. He is more than capable of coding what ever it is he wants to code. Dragonfly's direction is substantially different from FreeBSD. Matt is free to do as he pleases. I dare say that even with a present boot menu, that Dragonfly is not for regular users. It is for extraordinary users. That doesn't mean its better or worse. Its just different. Of the things I read about Dragonfly, user friendliness is not one of the things I recall as being a design goal. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 04:25:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9806016A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:25:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix3-2.free.fr (postfix3-2.free.fr [213.228.0.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E4F43D55 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:25:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp2-q.free.fr (imp2-q.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by postfix3-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D70FC016; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:25:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp2-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 2C136194D9; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:25:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from 219.64.140.225 ([219.64.140.225]) by imp2-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:25:09 +0100 Message-ID: <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:25:09 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Jason C. Wells" References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 219.64.140.225 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:25:13 -0000 Quoting "Jason C. Wells" : > Of the things I read about > Dragonfly, user friendliness is not one of the things I recall as being a > design goal. It is, very much so. But not immediately. A lot of fundamental infrastructure (VFS in particular) is changing first. My problem isn't that user-friendliness isn't a design goal for FreeBSD: it is that a large and influential section of the FreeBSD community is actively hostile to user-friendliness, usually on the grounds that "this is the traditional BSD way". The csh/tcsh battle was won by the user-friendliness argument, but that was an exception, and even that bikeshed continues to pop up several years after the fact. Another example is packaging of the base system. This does not mean turning BSD into Red Hat, it means being able more easily to remove optional components, and having less junk (like stale header files) lying around after an installworld. People have posted patches on FreeBSD lists to register parts of the world in the pkg database, but there's no chance of it becoming mainstream. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 04:51:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D3316A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC77C43D3F for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:51:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 97843512AF; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:56:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:56:22 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20041130045622.GA51989@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:51:17 -0000 --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 05:25:09AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > lying around after an installworld. People have posted patches > on FreeBSD lists to register parts of the world in the pkg database, > but there's no chance of it becoming mainstream. On the contrary, some of us have been asking for this for years, but I haven't seen anyone come up with a useful proof of concept. Where are these patches? Kris --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBq/12Wry0BWjoQKURAvy1AJ9jpa805bWrE6TW2AAPugnCdsd06ACghkH2 YVnUGMaYw2bkHSjqbTXKS70= =PY4P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --4Ckj6UjgE2iN1+kY-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 05:05:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0884216A4D5 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:05:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D74A43D48 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:05:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:01:56 -0600 Message-ID: <41ABFF8D.1060200@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 23:05:17 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20041023 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Nov 2004 05:01:57.0324 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7AEC0C0:01C4D699] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:05:21 -0000 Jason C. Wells wrote: > --On Monday, November 29, 2004 6:14 PM +0100 Rahul Siddharthan > wrote: > >> Quoting Adam Fabian : >> >>> Was reading the CVS all list, and it's gone. I, for one, kind of >>> liked it. It was a bit of a shock the first time, comparing with 4.x, >>> but it didn't take long to get used to it, and it's kind of useful. >> >> >> It's very useful. And it lives on in Dragonfly, with different ascii >> art. >> >> More evidence that FreeBSD is losing all touch with regular users. > > > What is a regular user? I use FreeBSD quite regularly. I am a > regular guy > and I use FreeBSD. Using FreeBSD keeps me, he-hem, regular. I will > assume > I am qualified to comment, as a regular user. > > The beastie menu is just another level of complexity. It has very > little to do > with anything. I had to learn about Forth in order to figure out how > to turn i > t off. Learning about Forth is not something I wanted to do. Forth is > hardly a > regular user sort of thing. Sure, once I dilly dallied in the docs, I > figured out > what was going on. It did take time. Bah! Where's the hacker mentality? :-) # cd /boot # cp beastie.4th beastie.4th.orig # {editorcommand} beastie.4th Piece of cake! 8^) KDK From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 05:07:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1340C16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:07:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix4-1.free.fr (postfix4-1.free.fr [213.228.0.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6B8943D2D for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:07:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp1-q.free.fr (imp1-q.free.fr [212.27.42.1]) by postfix4-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6901D1695EC; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:06:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp1-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 308907113; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:06:59 +0100 (MET) Received: from proxy.imsc.res.in (proxy.imsc.res.in [203.199.209.81]) by imp1-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:06:59 +0100 Message-ID: <1101791219.41abfff31d3a7@imp1-q.free.fr> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:06:59 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130045622.GA51989@xor.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20041130045622.GA51989@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 203.199.209.81 cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:07:04 -0000 Quoting Kris Kennaway : > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 05:25:09AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > lying around after an installworld. People have posted patches > > on FreeBSD lists to register parts of the world in the pkg database, > > but there's no chance of it becoming mainstream. > > On the contrary, some of us have been asking for this for years, but I > haven't seen anyone come up with a useful proof of concept. Where are > these patches? Colin Percival's patches: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023804.html Ruslan Ermilov talks about plans for a "make uninstall target": http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023961.html Read the whole thread though, and also the "Pkg-based base system" thread the same month, for a sample of reactions. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 05:10:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B040D16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:10:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEB743D49 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:10:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B181B512AF; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:15:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:15:53 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20041130051553.GA67210@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130045622.GA51989@xor.obsecurity.org> <1101791219.41abfff31d3a7@imp1-q.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1101791219.41abfff31d3a7@imp1-q.free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:10:47 -0000 --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:06:59AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Quoting Kris Kennaway : >=20 > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 05:25:09AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > lying around after an installworld. People have posted patches > > > on FreeBSD lists to register parts of the world in the pkg database, > > > but there's no chance of it becoming mainstream. > > > > On the contrary, some of us have been asking for this for years, but I > > haven't seen anyone come up with a useful proof of concept. Where are > > these patches? >=20 > Colin Percival's patches: > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023804.html >=20 > Ruslan Ermilov talks about plans for a "make uninstall target": > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023961.html >=20 > Read the whole thread though, and also the "Pkg-based base system" thread > the same month, for a sample of reactions. Thanks. Both of those people are FreeBSD committers though, so I don't know why you think there's "no chance of it becoming mainstream". Kris --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBrAIJWry0BWjoQKURAs7BAJ4paEU6Kk2w+nH9A4wt4lqGHdOklACgmLiv PLYO5w2698vTXPWaYxNiC1g= =oxWb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 05:18:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DEC16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:18:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A4143D60 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:18:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp3-q.free.fr (imp3-q.free.fr [212.27.42.3]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3AA173499; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:18:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp3-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 0BFCD309DD; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:18:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from proxy.imsc.res.in (proxy.imsc.res.in [203.199.209.81]) by imp3-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:18:34 +0100 Message-ID: <1101791914.41ac02aaeeb1e@imp3-q.free.fr> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:18:34 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130045622.GA51989@xor.obsecurity.org> <1101791219.41abfff31d3a7@imp1-q.free.fr> <20041130051553.GA67210@xor.obsecurity.org> In-Reply-To: <20041130051553.GA67210@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 203.199.209.81 cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:18:36 -0000 Quoting Kris Kennaway : > > Colin Percival's patches: > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023804.html > > > > Ruslan Ermilov talks about plans for a "make uninstall target": > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023961.html > > > > Read the whole thread though, and also the "Pkg-based base system" thread > > the same month, for a sample of reactions. > > Thanks. Both of those people are FreeBSD committers though, so I > don't know why you think there's "no chance of it becoming > mainstream". Scott Long is a core team member, but nonetheless decided that the boot menu wasn't worth the fight. Those postings are 8 months old. If there has been further discussion, obviously you're unaware of them, as I am (but I don't read the lists much anymore). You're certainly aware that a lot of FreeBSD people will not countenance the idea. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 05:34:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2610216A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:34:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C0943D48 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:34:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2CAAD512AF; Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:39:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:39:15 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20041130053915.GA67455@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130045622.GA51989@xor.obsecurity.org> <1101791219.41abfff31d3a7@imp1-q.free.fr> <20041130051553.GA67210@xor.obsecurity.org> <1101791914.41ac02aaeeb1e@imp3-q.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1101791914.41ac02aaeeb1e@imp3-q.free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:34:09 -0000 --BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:18:34AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Quoting Kris Kennaway : > > > Colin Percival's patches: > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023804.= html > > > > > > Ruslan Ermilov talks about plans for a "make uninstall target": > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2004-March/023961.= html > > > > > > Read the whole thread though, and also the "Pkg-based base system" th= read > > > the same month, for a sample of reactions. > > > > Thanks. Both of those people are FreeBSD committers though, so I > > don't know why you think there's "no chance of it becoming > > mainstream". >=20 > Scott Long is a core team member, but nonetheless decided that the boot > menu wasn't worth the fight. I'm not talking about that, though. =20 > Those postings are 8 months old. If there has been further discussion, > obviously you're unaware of them, as I am (but I don't read the lists much > anymore). You're certainly aware that a lot of FreeBSD people will not > countenance the idea. I disagree - there's nothing controversial about allowing users to uninstall parts of the world they installed, as long as the FreeBSD upgrade process doesn't rely on it. Kris --BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBrAeCWry0BWjoQKURAlrQAKCmPnPE+4b4av9Tnr3ulfjTZqcKNwCg2NTr gioyUr/6fs/j2EIRoeF1Vrw= =gdCn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BXVAT5kNtrzKuDFl-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 06:52:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F3616A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:52:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6C643D46 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:52:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CZ1sl-000P62-1k; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:53:03 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:53:03 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20041130065303.GC68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:52:39 -0000 On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 05:25:09AM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Another example is packaging of the base system. This does not mean > turning BSD into Red Hat, it means being able more easily to remove > optional components, and having less junk (like stale header files) > lying around after an installworld. People have posted patches > on FreeBSD lists to register parts of the world in the pkg database, > but there's no chance of it becoming mainstream. There is a chance of that becoming mainstream because it's something lots of people are trying to work out how to make happen. There is even a bsdtar that doesn't need to use /tmp when extracting, specifically to make package management at install time nicer to manage. No scrub that, it's not that it makes it nicer, it's that is makes it *possible*. Anyway, seeing as whenever I ask any users how they're finding 5.3 now they've upgraded the stock answer is "pile of shit" I think it might be a good idea to let people get on with fixing the basics before we start the pkg management/installer bikeshed again. :-) As for the boot menu... it should have stayed IMHO, simply as it was better for new users than what has replaced it or what preceeded it. I personally got used to it, and now I'll have to adjust and re-educate the juniors on how to single-user a box for no real clear benefit. I have to admit that recently, upgrading and using FBSD in a production environment has started to feel a little - just a *little*, mind - like a fight instead of a pleasure. It feels like somebody is driving backwards on various decisions. It's odd - can't put my finger on it. Still, I'm sure it'll get better. Unless everybody has decided to run off and play with OS X instead. But let's not do that one again. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 08:22:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D2816A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:22:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED7A43D5F for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:22:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041130082251.GIFU14844.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:22:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:26:03 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0beta3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:22:52 -0000 On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:25:09 +0100 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > My problem isn't that user-friendliness isn't a design goal for > FreeBSD: [...] Hmm, interesting that you should mention that. I think the basic underlying reason why FreeBSD is floundering is precisely because it doesn't have *any* clear design goals anymore. By "design goal" I don't mean "push down Giant" or "support NDIS drivers," I mean something more general; a philosophy, a vision. As the .sig (cheesy as it is) says, OpenBSD is the most secure OS; NetBSD is the most portable. These are clear, straightforward visions. But what then is FreeBSD? The same .sig calls it "the most powerful." And what does that mean? Highest performance? Most stable? Easiest to use? Most featureful? Fewest bugs? Most accessible? Most conformant to standards? Plays nicest with other OSes? Largest package system? Does anyone know? Only core is in a position to say officially, I suppose. All I can say is that until they do, I think FreeBSD will continue to flounder. Blind men versus an elephant: it's really hard to unify a volunteer effort to a common purpose when you don't really have a clear idea of what your common purpose is and/or you haven't communicated it clearly. It's a *lot* easier to contribute to something that's been well-defined. Just my 2c, -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 09:06:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26C916A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D04E43D2F for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:06:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kjelderg@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a36so507247rnf for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:06:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=JMlstJQEWyaF6K3wrXR/OLZ3J9ffzVf6g4coAx0LERGgV2wWPgRAnoH5fD/j4rpNF6QRRJ6DJB460PkRktCDaa6ErIbU9SvmwgdhXiBQisEDkIZdiZlpJ8/tP5Jim1b6xYbxEaBe8+YRwhUr0u6oPuzCWREHGxih63ABjLYBD8Q= Received: by 10.38.77.63 with SMTP id z63mr374954rna; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.15.38 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:06:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:06:42 +0000 From: Eric Kjeldergaard To: Chris Pressey In-Reply-To: <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eric Kjeldergaard List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:06:48 -0000 > > My problem isn't that user-friendliness isn't a design goal for > > FreeBSD: [...] > > Hmm, interesting that you should mention that. I think the basic > underlying reason why FreeBSD is floundering is precisely because it > doesn't have *any* clear design goals anymore. > > By "design goal" I don't mean "push down Giant" or "support NDIS > drivers," I mean something more general; a philosophy, a vision. > > As the .sig (cheesy as it is) says, OpenBSD is the most secure OS; > NetBSD is the most portable. These are clear, straightforward visions. > > But what then is FreeBSD? The same .sig calls it "the most powerful." > And what does that mean? Highest performance? Most stable? Easiest to > use? Most featureful? Fewest bugs? Most accessible? Most conformant > to standards? Plays nicest with other OSes? Largest package system? > > Does anyone know? > > Only core is in a position to say officially, I suppose. All I can say > is that until they do, I think FreeBSD will continue to flounder. Blind > men versus an elephant: it's really hard to unify a volunteer effort to > a common purpose when you don't really have a clear idea of what your > common purpose is and/or you haven't communicated it clearly. It's a > *lot* easier to contribute to something that's been well-defined. > Well, I should say that the FreeBSD team has made an official statement regarding that. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/introduction.html#FREEBSD-GOALS This seems to outline the goals of FreeBSD. Now it is true that these goals are a bit "vague", but that is because FreeBSD is what we OSSers call very very large. Really a full featured OS with Kernel and Userland is a very large and very broad undertaking. There are literally thousands of things that need to be worked towards and many of them are on a daily basis. Security is of course prominent, and performance is constant. Stability is one of the areas that FreeBSD has always excelled. The adherance to standards often gives the people of our community a "This is the way our fathers did it" attitude, but is not something to be moved away from. But that leaves us back where we started, at your question. What is the purpose of FreeBSD. This FAQ is answered in a larger sense right there in FreeBSD's FAQs page (the link I posted). FreeBSD is in place to provide an operating system consisting of good, usable, flexible code that can be used by anyone who desires to use it and in (nearly) whatever way that person sees fit. It is to this end, I feel, that the contributors write good clean hardware support and implement new and exciting technologies. To this end that they write the most powerful operating system in the world. Not necessarily powerful because of how the operating system runs, but powerful in its ideology. -- If I write a signature, my emails will appear more personalised. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 09:28:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2EC316A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741AB43D49 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:28:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 3D8B75312; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:28:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 8D6FD5310; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:28:35 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6AA79B85E; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:28:35 +0100 (CET) To: "Jason C. Wells" References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:28:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Jason C. Wells's message of "Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:59:24 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.64 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:28:45 -0000 "Jason C. Wells" writes: > The beastie menu is just another level of complexity. It has very > little to do with anything. I had to learn about Forth in order to > figure out how to turn it off. You can't have learned much if you think # echo 'beastie_disable=3D"YES"' >> /boot/loader.conf has anything to do with Forth. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 09:29:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A5016A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:29:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2209043D39 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:29:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CZ4K6-0000Is-KK; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:29:26 +0000 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:29:26 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Eric Kjeldergaard Message-ID: <20041130092926.GD68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Chris Pressey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:29:09 -0000 On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 09:06:42AM +0000, Eric Kjeldergaard wrote: > Well, I should say that the FreeBSD team has made an official > statement regarding that. > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/introduction.html#FREEBSD-GOALS > > This seems to outline the goals of FreeBSD. Now it is true that these > goals are a bit "vague", but that is because FreeBSD is what we OSSers > call very very large. That is not an outline of the FreeBSD project. That is an outline of the open source movement operating under a BSD license. Technically, Apache has the same project goals as FreeBSD if you consider that section to be our project goals. I think what is being asked for is a clear direction. OpenBSD strives to be the most secure OS. NetBSD strives to run on the most platforms. OS X strives to be the best consumer OS. What does FreeBSD strive to be? What direction is the project taking? For example, one bikeshed inadvertently kicked off by myself a year or two back was how much effort should go into making FreeBSD "BSD-pure" so that it was an attractive OS for commercial entities to put into their own applications, embedded devices, etc. Another bikeshed was how much effort should be put into making FreeBSD easy enough to install and manage that our technically incompetent relatives could use it. There are arguments on both sides of the camp, and ultimately what results is code forks - DragonFly is a fork resulting from a clear vision of what FreeBSD should be that went unsupported by many people involved in FreeBSD. This is nothing to be ashamed of, but the chance we could have taken then to say "look, this is really what FreeBSD is about" and let people take that technology and do other things with it (yes, a bit like Linux distros, I don't see the harm) is not something the project should be scared of. So, what is FreeBSD's objective? If as a project it's sole rasion d'etre is to just exist for the sake of existing - for people who want to play with developing a BSD Unix to be able to play with a BSD Unix then so be it, let's clarify that. If it is to be a platform for other projects to sprout from to hit certain needs (FreeSBIE, DragonFly, etc.) then let's codify that and make it clear. If it is to provide the best BSD Unix on the planet, then let's shout it from the rooftops. At the moment it's a "thing a bit like Linux but it's BSD and it has really good documentation and a decent-ish package/ports system". Which is refreshing as mission statement go in it's naivety, but not going to attract developers. This is quickly going to bikeshed if we're not careful, but I think IMHO FreeBSD should aim to be the best of breed in some core technologies and make it easy to build application servers - want a desktop? do this; want a web server? here, we made it easy for you. It's a niche the project already fills but doesn't shout about. We don't talk about what FreeBSD is great at because we don't know what it should be great at. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 10:49:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3F416A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:49:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927F643D5C for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:49:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iAUAnVFP032438; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 05:49:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:24:40 +0100 To: Chris Pressey From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:49:38 -0000 At 12:26 AM -0800 2004-11-30, Chris Pressey wrote: > But what then is FreeBSD? The same .sig calls it "the most powerful." Yup. > And what does that mean? See below. > Highest performance? Most stable? Easiest to > use? Most featureful? Fewest bugs? Yes. > Most accessible? What do you mean "accessible"? And by whom? Do you mean handicapped-friendly? Do you mean moron-resistant? > Most conformant > to standards? Which standards? > Plays nicest with other OSes? What do you mean by "nicest"? Which other OSes? > Largest package system? That's a side-effect, not a direct goal. > Does anyone know? I would think that the term "power" would be pretty obvious. OpenBSD may be the more "secure", and NetBSD may be the most "Portable", but these are not things that FreeBSD is going to tend to focus on. FreeBSD will have the best/most scalable SMP. FreeBSD will handle ultra-large memory systems in the best/most scalable way. FreeBSD will handle large disk farm systems best. FreeBSD will have the most scalable network system. User-friendliess, especially moron resistance, is one area that FreeBSD will not tend to focus on. So, if you don't like hacking on Forth, your options of limiting the beastie boot menu may be limited. FreeBSD will be portable to some other platforms, but not as many as NetBSD. FreeBSD will have a reasonable level of security, but won't try to take it to the extremes that OpenBSD does. There are plenty of other areas where FreeBSD may not be the best platform to choose, if that's the sort of thing you want to do. But if you want power, speed, scalability, and robustness, you know where to go. > Only core is in a position to say officially, I suppose. All I can say > is that until they do, I think FreeBSD will continue to flounder. I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I don't see the floundering. I see lots of good work going on, with the occasional bikeshed -- including topics such as "what is FreeBSD"? -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 14:02:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2784C16A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:02:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA36943D1D for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:02:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:59:10 -0600 Message-ID: <41AC7D76.4060409@daleco.biz> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:02:30 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20041023 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Nov 2004 13:59:10.0590 (UTC) FILETIME=[C434D1E0:01C4D6E4] cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:02:16 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > I see lots of good work going on, with the occasional > bikeshed -- including topics such as "what is FreeBSD"? To which, perhaps, the answer should be "find out yourself, install if you dare ... and we dare ya!" ;-) KDK From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 18:53:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B3916A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:53:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pop-a065d19.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065d19.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF8F43D49 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:53:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phummers@iname.com) Received: from sdn-ap-005dcwashp0500.dialsprint.net ([63.188.41.246] helo=smtp.earthlink.net) by pop-a065d19.pas.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CZD7z-0004WF-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:53:32 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: phummers@iname.com (Peter Hummers) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:53:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Message-ID: <20041130135330.1BA100%0DAD03D2@iname.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Macintosh SweetMail 2.2r6 Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:53:33 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: >At 12:26 AM -0800 2004-11-30, Chris Pressey wrote: > >> But what then is FreeBSD? The same .sig calls it "the most powerful." > Yup. >> Most accessible? > What do you mean "accessible"? And by whom? Do you mean >handicapped-friendly? Do you mean moron-resistant? AKA "fool-proof" -Peter Hummers == "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 22:48:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920E116A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:48:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E4A43D1F for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:48:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041130224817.PNFY24672.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:48:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:51:30 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0beta3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:48:18 -0000 On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:24:40 +0100 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:26 AM -0800 2004-11-30, Chris Pressey wrote: > > Highest performance? Most stable? > > Easiest to use? Most featureful? Fewest bugs? > > Yes. OK, then someone in charge should write that down, as part of the official docs, assuming core agrees. > > Most accessible? > > What do you mean "accessible"? And by whom? Do you mean > handicapped-friendly? Do you mean moron-resistant? > > > Most > > conformant > > to standards? > > Which standards? > > > Plays nicest with other OSes? > > What do you mean by "nicest"? Which other OSes? Maybe all, maybe none - the answers to those questions are all up to TPTB to decide and make explicit. > > Largest package system? > > That's a side-effect, not a direct goal. It could quite easily be a goal if it's what the project leaders want. > [...] > I would think that the term "power" would be pretty obvious. I would disagree; it's certainly open to far more interpretation than, say, "fastest" would be. "Powerful" certainly doesn't mean "stable" or "correct" in the dialect of English that I use - can I assume then that these two goals would take a backseat to that of raw performance? (If yes, write it down; if no, write _that_ down... all I'm saying is, stating *some* philosophy will put the project in a better position than just assuming it's obvious and hoping everyone else has made the same assumptions that they have.) > [...] > I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I don't > see the floundering. Do you follow cvs-src@? -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 30 22:57:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E1816A4CE for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:57:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0B343D5D for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:57:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EBE9C5119A; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:02:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:02:14 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:57:04 -0000 --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 02:51:30PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: > > [...] > > I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I don't > > see the floundering. >=20 > Do you follow cvs-src@? Come now, surely you can do a better recruiting job for DragonFly than falling back on FUD. Kris --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBrPv2Wry0BWjoQKURAr2ZAKDX9avZlVx9ulr9/9J0kI93YSNDfACgrKk/ JgxJhSyKD+txES9I62bYipw= =Z3xN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 00:20:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2329016A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:20:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF14943D2F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:20:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041201002049.HYSB12565.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:20:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:24:03 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0beta3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:20:51 -0000 On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:02:14 -0800 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 02:51:30PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > > [...] > > > I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I don't > > > see the floundering. > > > > Do you follow cvs-src@? > > Come now, surely you can do a better recruiting job for DragonFly than > falling back on FUD. > > Kris I'm not recruiting for DragonFly; I raised these exact same issues about lack of a stated philosophy on their list a couple of months ago. I'm also not spreading FUD. I'm not sure of the best way to objectively measure the amount of floundering a project is undergoing, but I think counting the number of backouts and backout requests would be a good first approximation. In order to measure that, one would quite naturally have to read the CVS logs. And while I have not conducted a formal study, I've seen backouts and backout requests appear far more frequently on the FreeBSD CVS list than on any of the other BSD CVS lists I've followed. You may have noticed, in fact, that this entire thread was started off by one such backout. Now you might say, well FreeBSD only has more backouts because FreeBSD has so many more developers and so much more activity. That's almost certainly true. But that's even *more* of a reason to have a cohesive philosophy communicated clearly to the entire project, otherwise the amount of toe-stepping will become unmanageable. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 00:31:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E7916A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:31:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94C643D48 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:31:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iB10V4Ci076016; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:31:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041130135330.1BA100%0DAD03D2@iname.com> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130135330.1BA100%0DAD03D2@iname.com> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:22:43 +0100 To: phummers@iname.com (Peter Hummers) From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:31:41 -0000 At 1:53 PM -0500 2004-11-30, Peter Hummers wrote: >> What do you mean "accessible"? And by whom? Do you mean >>handicapped-friendly? Do you mean moron-resistant? > > AKA "fool-proof" There is no such thing. As soon as you declare something fool-proof, someone goes and invents a bigger fool. The absolute best you can possibly hope for is to be sufficiently moron-resistant for most cases. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 00:31:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CBB016A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:31:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE4743D3F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:31:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iB10V4Ck076016; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:31:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:25:17 +0100 To: Chris Pressey From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:31:47 -0000 At 2:51 PM -0800 2004-11-30, Chris Pressey wrote: >> I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I don't >> see the floundering. > > Do you follow cvs-src@? Nope. Don't see the need. I do follow -current and -chat, and after a few more months of 5.x being the new -stable, I may move my main FreeBSD subscription there. If you're seeing confusion and floundering on cvs-src that I'm not seeing on the lists I monitor, then perhaps it's only some of the developers that are confused, and everyone else is just fine. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 00:44:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3A616A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:44:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70ADA43D2D for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:44:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041201004450.NCCL21390.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:44:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:48:04 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041130164804.6f2be049.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0beta3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:44:52 -0000 On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:25:17 +0100 Brad Knowles wrote: > If you're seeing confusion and floundering on cvs-src that I'm > not seeing on the lists I monitor, then perhaps it's only some of the > developers that are confused, and everyone else is just fine. Quite possible. What I'm suggesting is that *all* the developers would be on the whole *less* confused if they had a better mission statement to refer to. And that's all I'm suggesting. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 00:46:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B3416A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:46:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55ADF43D39 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:46:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 12517511AA; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:51:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:51:40 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Chris Pressey Message-ID: <20041201005139.GA71572@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 00:46:26 -0000 --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 04:24:03PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:02:14 -0800 > Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 02:51:30PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: > >=20 > > > > [...] > > > > I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I don't > > > > see the floundering. > > >=20 > > > Do you follow cvs-src@? > >=20 > > Come now, surely you can do a better recruiting job for DragonFly than > > falling back on FUD. > >=20 > > Kris >=20 > I'm not recruiting for DragonFly; I raised these exact same issues about > lack of a stated philosophy on their list a couple of months ago. >=20 > I'm also not spreading FUD. I'm not sure of the best way to objectively > measure the amount of floundering a project is undergoing, but I think > counting the number of backouts and backout requests would be a good > first approximation. In order to measure that, one would quite > naturally have to read the CVS logs. >=20 > And while I have not conducted a formal study, I've seen backouts and > backout requests appear far more frequently on the FreeBSD CVS list than > on any of the other BSD CVS lists I've followed. >=20 > You may have noticed, in fact, that this entire thread was started off > by one such backout. >=20 > Now you might say, well FreeBSD only has more backouts because FreeBSD > has so many more developers and so much more activity. That's almost > certainly true. But that's even *more* of a reason to have a cohesive > philosophy communicated clearly to the entire project, otherwise the > amount of toe-stepping will become unmanageable. Even if there were anything to this hypothesis, your metric only measures conflict between developers and lack of ability of certain people to obtain public consensus on their changes, not lack of direction for the project (in many such cases there's agreement on the intended goal of the change, but not the implementation). Certainly, a project with a small number of major developers will have less backout requests by virtue of no-one standing up to disagree with them, but that doesn't mean it's going anywhere very quickly. Kris P.S. Given the histories involved, it's amusing to see a dragonfly advocate pointing out that minimizing inter-developer conflict within the project would be a good way for FreeBSD to achieve a better project direction. --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBrRWbWry0BWjoQKURAvUsAJ9S3CRzSQT5BfhAUUD9bFU6cXSJ7gCggdqU wmJrkz/pLufqr20fLrZuP2Y= =9lFT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 01:02:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44A016A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:02:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913AD43D46 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:02:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iB1124dO077399; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:02:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:59:58 +0100 To: Chris Pressey From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:02:09 -0000 At 4:24 PM -0800 2004-11-30, Chris Pressey wrote: > And while I have not conducted a formal study, I've seen backouts and > backout requests appear far more frequently on the FreeBSD CVS list than > on any of the other BSD CVS lists I've followed. That could simply be because FreeBSD is the biggest BSD project. You see more crime in New York City than you do in Norman Oklahoma. Most of that is due to the fact that NYC proper has something like eight million people living there, while the population of Norman is just under 100,000, when all the University students are in town and attending classes. > Now you might say, well FreeBSD only has more backouts because FreeBSD > has so many more developers and so much more activity. Indeed, I did say just that. > That's almost > certainly true. But that's even *more* of a reason to have a cohesive > philosophy communicated clearly to the entire project, otherwise the > amount of toe-stepping will become unmanageable. The number of backouts is not necessarily an indicator of a lack of clarity on the overall project philosophy. Again, I see no lack of clarity, I see no confusion, and I see no floundering. I am left seriously wondering just what the heck it is that you're going on and on about. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 01:07:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2E616A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:07:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29FB43D1F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:07:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cpressey@catseye.mine.nu) Received: from catseye.biscuit.boo ([154.20.76.195]) by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.netSMTP <20041201010733.LZDT5494.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@catseye.biscuit.boo> for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:07:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:10:47 -0800 From: Chris Pressey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20041130171047.5eed9a65.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20041201005139.GA71572@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041201005139.GA71572@xor.obsecurity.org> Organization: Cat's Eye Technologies X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.0.0beta3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:07:34 -0000 On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:51:40 -0800 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 04:24:03PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: > > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 15:02:14 -0800 > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 02:51:30PM -0800, Chris Pressey wrote: > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > I'm sorry, I just don't see the source of confusion. I > > > > > don't > > > > > see the floundering. > > > > > > > > Do you follow cvs-src@? > > > > > > Come now, surely you can do a better recruiting job for DragonFly > > > than falling back on FUD. > > > > > > Kris > > > > I'm not recruiting for DragonFly; I raised these exact same issues > > about lack of a stated philosophy on their list a couple of months > > ago. > > > > I'm also not spreading FUD. I'm not sure of the best way to > > objectively measure the amount of floundering a project is > > undergoing, but I think counting the number of backouts and backout > > requests would be a good first approximation. In order to measure > > that, one would quite naturally have to read the CVS logs. > > > > And while I have not conducted a formal study, I've seen backouts > > and backout requests appear far more frequently on the FreeBSD CVS > > list than on any of the other BSD CVS lists I've followed. > > > > You may have noticed, in fact, that this entire thread was started > > off by one such backout. > > > > Now you might say, well FreeBSD only has more backouts because > > FreeBSD has so many more developers and so much more activity. > > That's almost certainly true. But that's even *more* of a reason to > > have a cohesive philosophy communicated clearly to the entire > > project, otherwise the amount of toe-stepping will become > > unmanageable. > > Even if there were anything to this hypothesis, your metric only > measures conflict between developers and lack of ability of certain > people to obtain public consensus on their changes, not lack of > direction for the project (in many such cases there's agreement on the > intended goal of the change, but not the implementation). > > Certainly, a project with a small number of major developers will have > less backout requests by virtue of no-one standing up to disagree with > them, but that doesn't mean it's going anywhere very quickly. OK. I'm certainly open to a better method for evaluating the direction of open-source projects. Did you have one in mind? The only better way I can think of at the moment (if we put sheer objectivity aside) is to compare the things people are doing, against the published mission statement. Except, as noted, the current mission statement for FreeBSD is so vague (basically "provide software with no strings attached") that comparing activity with it can't tell you much, if anything, useful. Which is precisely why I'm suggesting that FreeBSD would do well to publish one with more substance. > Kris > > P.S. Given the histories involved, it's amusing to see a dragonfly > advocate pointing out that minimizing inter-developer conflict within > the project would be a good way for FreeBSD to achieve a better > project direction. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Should I be suggesting that *more* internal conflict would be a good way for a project to establish and meet its goals? That doesn't make any sense. I'm also not sure how I got labelled in your mind as a DragonFly advocate. -Chris From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 01:09:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C04E16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:09:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte215.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4AE43D45 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:09:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from [192.168.1.16] (w16.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.16]) iB119g8m013185; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:09:42 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.8 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,MIME_LONG_LINE_QP,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:09:49 -0000 --On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:28 AM +0100 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav=20 wrote: > "Jason C. Wells" writes: >> The beastie menu is just another level of complexity. It has very >> little to do with anything. I had to learn about Forth in order to >> figure out how to turn it off. > > You can't have learned much if you think > ># echo 'beastie_disable=3D"YES"' >> /boot/loader.conf > > has anything to do with Forth. You are correct. I did not learn much. I deleted beastie.4th from one of=20 the boot scripts. I don't think beastie_disable was around when I was=20 monkeying with this, or I missed it in the docs. That wasn't the point. The point was that the boot menu doesn't add anything to the usability and=20 that in at least one case, it was an unwelcome distraction. The deletion=20 of the menu is of little significance to regular users. I didn't even know = such a thing existed until I recently did my first work on the console in=20 several years. In fact, I haven't even looked to see if my remaining 4X=20 boxes have this menu. If I would have done my upgrade to 5X yesterday=20 rather than a month ago, I would never have known that the darned thing=20 ever appeared in the system. It's just not important, not even to regular users. The claim that FreeBSD = is not suitable to regular users because the beastie menu is gone is silly. Later, Jason C. Wells From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 01:16:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6874916A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:16:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from s1.stradamotorsports.com (ip30.gte215.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [209.20.215.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0096A43D31 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:16:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from [192.168.1.16] (w16.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.16]) iB11GE8m013211; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:16:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:16:14 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <41ABFF8D.1060200@daleco.biz> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <41ABFF8D.1060200@daleco.biz> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=4.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:16:26 -0000 --On Monday, November 29, 2004 11:05 PM -0600 "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." wrote: > Bah! Where's the hacker mentality? :-) > ># cd /boot ># cp beastie.4th beastie.4th.orig ># {editorcommand} beastie.4th > That is what I did, right down to the *.orig naming. :) Jason From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 01:28:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE2DB16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:28:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A36443D46 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:28:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from leafy7382@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 34so228324rns for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:28:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=TbMS0q+ZTiiROvMvoo2XZfuqO4e+szN2IerEqsjN5tdvKJZECKUeUDzcJ9lFYmyBTZhxEkCWO+P0P2kBKyiz70HICoKF/Ob9APELXg0besvkrSimChi4i7M2mQjloDhuytmdeZhb2qwJ98/1oL2SPtRCl8QATNoJa+cWldNiZ7k= Received: by 10.38.206.33 with SMTP id d33mr1646905rng; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.8.31 with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:28:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 09:28:14 +0800 From: Jiawei Ye To: "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jiawei Ye List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:28:16 -0000 On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 17:09:42 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > It's just not important, not even to regular users. The claim that FreeBSD > is not suitable to regular users because the beastie menu is gone is silly. > > Later, > Jason C. Wells I am a regular user of FreeBSD since 2.2.8. "Usability" isn't a on-or-off thing. I don't claim something to be "unusable" because one single feature isn't present, but it's the notion of "more usable" or "less usable" that counts. Putting up the beastie menu with or without the beastie does make FreeBSD more usable in my case. What is wrong for being not wanting to remember exact arcane loader commands when one can just press '2' to boot without acpi? Regards, Jiawei Ye -- "Without the userland, the kernel is useless." --inspired by The Tao of Programming From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 01:31:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4001016A4FD for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:31:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1A743D66 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:31:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id iB11VK8a078680; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:31:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad@stop.mail-abuse.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20041130171047.5eed9a65.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041201005139.GA71572@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041130171047.5eed9a65.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 02:29:55 +0100 To: Chris Pressey From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:31:25 -0000 At 5:10 PM -0800 2004-11-30, Chris Pressey wrote: > OK. I'm certainly open to a better method for evaluating the direction > of open-source projects. Did you have one in mind? If you want to use your backout request metric, then at least calculate that on a per capita basis. Count the number of committers, and then count the number of backout requests in a given period of time. Then compare per capita numbers with other projects. This won't give you a true apples-apples comparison, because this issue is almost certainly not really scaled linearly, but at least it's closer than what you seem to have done so far. I'm sure that others can come up with recommendations that are even better. This was just off the top of my head. > Except, as noted, the current mission > statement for FreeBSD is so vague (basically "provide software with no > strings attached") that comparing activity with it can't tell you > much, if anything, useful. Remember, these two items are not necessarily directly connected. You could easily have a group of people who are doing all sorts of things and everyone is a happy camper, with little or no mission statement at all. OTOH, you could have an excellent and very specific mission statement and a group of people who do no real work and all they do is bitch and fight all day. You might be able to do some research to show that there actually is a correlation between these two, but you're going to have to do a lot more than just pull that claim out of your hat. If you want anyone to believe you, then you need to substantiate your claim. Furthermore, even if you can prove that they are correlated, you then have to go further to prove a causal relationship, before you can definitively say that the lack of a good mission statement is causing all this developer confusion, and therefore we need to have a proper mission statement created. > Which is precisely why I'm suggesting that FreeBSD would do well to > publish one with more substance. You're trying to hit escape velocity before you've even shown that you can crawl. You've got a lot more homework you need to do before you can convince us of your claims. -- Brad Knowles, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See for more info. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 04:44:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BBF16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 04:44:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D29343D69 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 04:44:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp1-q.free.fr (imp1-q.free.fr [212.27.42.1]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235DA173490; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:44:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp1-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id 02A571D98D; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:44:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from proxy.imsc.res.in (proxy.imsc.res.in [203.199.209.81]) by imp1-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:44:37 +0100 Message-ID: <1101876277.41ad4c35e3deb@imp1-q.free.fr> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:44:37 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130230214.GA39964@xor.obsecurity.org> <20041130162403.567a4e39.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 203.199.209.81 cc: Chris Pressey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 04:44:40 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > You see more crime in New York City than you do in Norman > Oklahoma. Most of that is due to the fact that NYC proper has > something like eight million people living there, while the > population of Norman is just under 100,000, when all the University > students are in town and attending classes. Bad example. You see less crime in New York City, post-1990 anyway, than in many smaller cities like Baltimore and Chicago. And even in NYC you see more crime in the low-density suburbs and less in high-density Manhattan. Kris and others: let's leave Dragonfly out of it. Nobody mentioned Dragonfly, except me in my first posting, and that was only to say that the boot menu lives on. Nobody's advocating Dragonfly to end-users and certainly not to production environments yet. The concerns about FreeBSD started to grow well before Dragonfly. The specific concern I raised was that nobody who matters cares about user-friendliness. This thread seems to confirm that. I suspect that all those who used to care about it now work for Apple... Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 05:50:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0055416A4CF for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:50:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pd3mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A9643D1F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:50:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flowers@users.sourceforge.net) Received: from pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr1so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.110]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I8100FS247R0Q80@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:50:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.152]) by pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I8100C3X47RKG70@pd2mr1so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:50:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from sirius (S0106000c41b2b9a3.cg.shawcable.net [68.144.45.143]) by l-daemon (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with SMTP id <0I810042P47QNN@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:50:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:50:23 -0700 From: Dan MacMillan In-reply-to: <1101876277.41ad4c35e3deb@imp1-q.free.fr> To: Rahul Siddharthan , Brad Knowles Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal cc: Chris Pressey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:50:18 -0000 From: Rahul Siddharthan > Brad Knowles wrote: > > You see more crime in New York City than you do in Norman > > Oklahoma. Most of that is due to the fact that NYC proper has > > something like eight million people living there, while the > > population of Norman is just under 100,000, when all the University > > students are in town and attending classes. > > Bad example. You see less crime in New York City, post-1990 anyway, > than in many smaller cities like Baltimore and Chicago. And even in > NYC you see more crime in the low-density suburbs and less in > high-density Manhattan. > > Kris and others: let's leave Dragonfly out of it. Nobody mentioned > Dragonfly, except me in my first posting, and that was only to say that > the boot menu lives on. Nobody's advocating Dragonfly to end-users and > certainly not to production environments yet. > > The concerns about FreeBSD started to grow well before Dragonfly. > The specific concern I raised was that nobody who matters cares about > user-friendliness. This thread seems to confirm that. I suspect > that all those who used to care about it now work for Apple... ... and now they don't anymore ;) -- Danny MacMillan From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 08:54:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A2F16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:54:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from www.cyclades.de (mail.cyclades.de [62.225.173.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F5543D5A for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:54:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from pd9e0e027.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.224.224.39] helo=[192.168.100.104]) by www.cyclades.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CZQFd-0004nq-00; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:54:17 +0100 Message-ID: <41AD8657.9050308@kernel32.de> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:52:39 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040928) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Pressey References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130164804.6f2be049.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <20041130164804.6f2be049.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:54:26 -0000 Hej All, and to add something to that thread ... Chris Pressey wrote: > On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:25:17 +0100 > Brad Knowles wrote: > > >> If you're seeing confusion and floundering on cvs-src that I'm >>not seeing on the lists I monitor, then perhaps it's only some of the >>developers that are confused, and everyone else is just fine. > > > Quite possible. What I'm suggesting is that *all* the developers would > be on the whole *less* confused if they had a better mission statement > to refer to. And that's all I'm suggesting. > Why doesn't someone ask for instance Yahoo. As far as I know they have the largest FreeBSD Serverfarm worldwide. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Ask them "Why do you use FreeBSD instead of Linux?" Maybe there answer could help the project in identifing themself. Maybe some goals of the Project are getting more obvious. Yahoo was just one example. Pick some other large company who uses FreeBSD as there core. As far as I know, Nokia uses FreeBSD on their Firewall Appliances (although I would prefer to have OpenBSD on these boxes...). This whole thread is partly about PR / Marketing. Ask our "customers", as in corporations using FreeBSD, why they do so. Then watch out wether some of their statements would fit into "our", as in the community, the core-team, philosophy why using / developing on FreeBSD. And ultimately, write down the Project goals. Just my thoughts :) best regards, Marian PS.: I'm no corporate user of FreeBSD, I just like it better than any Linux Distribution and I'm using it wherever I can. At work, at home. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 16:08:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7304516A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:08:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail1.speakeasy.net (mail1.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0A343D2D for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:08:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 24174 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2004 16:08:39 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Dec 2004 16:08:38 -0000 Received: from qa4379.itdev.weather.com (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB1G8Sb5096665; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:08:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:50:43 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200412011050.43955.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on server.baldwin.cx cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:08:39 -0000 On Tuesday 30 November 2004 08:09 pm, Jason C. Wells wrote: > --On Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:28 AM +0100 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav > > wrote: > > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > >> The beastie menu is just another level of complexity. It has very > >> little to do with anything. I had to learn about Forth in order to > >> figure out how to turn it off. > > > > You can't have learned much if you think > > > ># echo 'beastie_disable=3D"YES"' >> /boot/loader.conf > > > > has anything to do with Forth. > > The point was that the boot menu doesn't add anything to the usability and > that in at least one case, it was an unwelcome distraction. The deletion > of the menu is of little significance to regular users. I didn't even kn= ow > such a thing existed until I recently did my first work on the console in > several years. In fact, I haven't even looked to see if my remaining 4X > boxes have this menu. If I would have done my upgrade to 5X yesterday > rather than a month ago, I would never have known that the darned thing > ever appeared in the system. > > It's just not important, not even to regular users. The claim that FreeB= SD > is not suitable to regular users because the beastie menu is gone is sill= y. You must not have any systems where ACPI or the APIC support is broken. Fo= r=20 people with those issues and those of us who work with them to debug those= =20 issues, the menu was a large step forward in usability. For my personal te= st=20 machines I simply added 'beastie_disable=3DYES' to /boot/loader.conf. Not = a=20 major deal to turn it off if you don't want it. =2D-=20 John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =3D http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 16:54:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE2316A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:54:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E7D43D2F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:54:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CZXkk-000FNw-4A for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:54:54 +0000 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 16:54:54 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: Paul Robinson Subject: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:54:25 -0000 ... it's time to face, the final curtain. Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD without adding a huge amount: http://www.crescentanchor.com/ My favourite bit is with the Gold edition you get all those lovely languages that are simply just too expensive to get hold of for humble FreeBSD. I seem to remember seeing a couple of outfits like this a few years back. Where did they all go? Did some gullible purchasing officer get suckered in, order 100 server licenses and the kids ran off with all the money? -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 17:03:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9755716A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:03:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.103.67.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2934E43D1F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:03:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CZXtA-000IF5-TF; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:03:36 +0000 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:03:36 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20041201170336.GF60679@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Paul Robinson , chat@freebsd.org References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7A15IXT36zwL5BDA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:03:38 -0000 --7A15IXT36zwL5BDA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:54:54PM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: > ... it's time to face, the final curtain. >=20 > Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on > offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the > ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD > without adding a huge amount: >=20 > http://www.crescentanchor.com/ >=20 > My favourite bit is with the Gold edition you get all those lovely > languages that are simply just too expensive to get hold of for humble > FreeBSD. Well that is drhodus' company, so he presumably thinks that he can make money off it. Not really "a few kids". Ceri --=20 Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Einstein (attrib.) --7A15IXT36zwL5BDA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBrfloocfcwTS3JF8RAu26AJkBERK/9fyVnJju/dRDSjtGjdB9CACfXrXo jwRdZHPhD5C2RNxDL1WuS10= =xRSP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7A15IXT36zwL5BDA-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 17:37:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EFF16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:37:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ice.dls.net (ice.dls.net [209.242.10.147]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3527A43D5D for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:37:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (216.145.235.76) by ice.dls.net (MX V5.3 AnFj) with ESMTP for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:37:25 -0600 Message-ID: <41AE0154.10008@emailrob.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:37:24 -0600 From: rob_spellberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:37:29 -0000 it appears that they copied the platinum page from the gold page. http://www.crescentanchor.com/purchasing/FireFly/Silver/ http://www.crescentanchor.com/purchasing/FireFly/Gold/ http://www.crescentanchor.com/purchasing/FireFly/Platinum/ the following question applies to --any-- vendor: if you can't get the obvious details right, can your clients really trust you on the details that are deeply buried? for this kind of money, hire a proofreader. alternatively, don't slap it together so fast. [ hmm, i wonder what the 96 cents is for??? ] rob From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 17:44:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187F216A4DE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:44:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ns1.tiadon.com (SMTP.tiadon.com [69.27.132.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90FD43D5A for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:44:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [69.27.131.0] ([69.27.131.0]) by ns1.tiadon.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:44:34 -0600 Message-ID: <41AE0309.6050708@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:44:41 -0600 From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20041023 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ceri Davies References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201170336.GF60679@submonkey.net> In-Reply-To: <20041201170336.GF60679@submonkey.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2004 17:44:35.0217 (UTC) FILETIME=[6BECE010:01C4D7CD] cc: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:44:27 -0000 Ceri Davies wrote: >On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:54:54PM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: > > >>... it's time to face, the final curtain. >> >>Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on >>offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the >>ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD >>without adding a huge amount: >> >>http://www.crescentanchor.com/ >> >>My favourite bit is with the Gold edition you get all those lovely >>languages that are simply just too expensive to get hold of for humble >>FreeBSD. >> >> Hmm, I'm on top of a rather large gift for my wife at ebay... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # mkdir /home/release # cd /usr/src/release # make release BUILDNAME=DaleCo-FruitFlyBSD-1.0-RELEASE \ CHROOTDIR=/home/release CVSROOT=freebsdanoncvs@anoncvs.freebsd.org:/home/ncvs \ RELEASETAG=RELENG_5_3 Now, I think the gift is at $400 ATM, anyone for FruitFly BSD? Selling licenses for forty bucks ea. in packs of 10 ... :-D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hey, it's free, like free {beverage of choice}. "With malice toward none and charity for all"* let him go, I say. FBSD is [arguably] still the oldest && bestest && best documented && most widely known/used. Now I wish I was just in a position to help keep it that way... An occasional doc patch does not an OS make.... :-( I do think the guys over at phpbuilder.com will get a kick out of the extra $31.01 that PHP/Perl/Python are worth.... :-) Kevin Kinsey *Maybe we should add Lincoln's thoughts to /COPYRIGHT? Nah .... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 17:48:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E20216A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:48:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pop-a065d10.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065d10.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.251]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB6C43D3F for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:48:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phummers@iname.com) Received: from sdn-ap-002dcwashp0096.dialsprint.net ([63.188.8.96] helo=smtp.earthlink.net) by pop-a065d10.pas.sa.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1CZYaR-00032D-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:48:19 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org From: phummers@iname.com (Peter Hummers) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:48:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Macintosh SweetMail 2.2r6 Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:48:20 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: >... it's time to face, the final curtain. > >Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on >offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the >ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD >without adding a huge amount: > >http://www.crescentanchor.com/ And now, I'd like to launch openfly BSD ... -Peter Hummers == "Peace is not the absence of war; it is a virtue; a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence; confidence; and justice." -Spinoza From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 17:52:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF8716A4CE; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:52:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4AA43D41; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:52:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iB1HqTJl008039; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iB1HqSPc089803; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iB1HqS3i089802; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:18 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> In-Reply-To: <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412011252.25296.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:52:33 -0000 --nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday 01 December 2004 12:48 pm, Peter Hummers wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: > >... it's time to face, the final curtain. > > > >Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on > >offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the > >ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD > >without adding a huge amount: > > > >http://www.crescentanchor.com/ > > And now, I'd like to launch openfly BSD ... > > -Peter Hummers Would that be a porn site, Mr. Hummers? =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBrgTZg1EgpGw750IRAowvAJ9JyEreHn4/klmQ1xD4GhyhqVx/lACfRbCu g3+SVcCFLYhPEpPQHyWA21Y= =cHl9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 17:52:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF8716A4CE; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:52:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4AA43D41; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:52:32 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (cpe-024-165-114-048.cinci.rr.com [24.165.114.48])iB1HqTJl008039; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.bluecirclesoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) iB1HqSPc089803; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by www.bluecirclesoft.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iB1HqS3i089802; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com) X-Authentication-Warning: www.bluecirclesoft.com: mrami set sender to marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com using -f From: Marc Ramirez Organization: Blue Circle Software Corp. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:52:18 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7.1 References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> In-Reply-To: <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200412011252.25296.marc.ramirez@bluecirclesoft.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:52:33 -0000 --nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Wednesday 01 December 2004 12:48 pm, Peter Hummers wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: > >... it's time to face, the final curtain. > > > >Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on > >offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the > >ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD > >without adding a huge amount: > > > >http://www.crescentanchor.com/ > > And now, I'd like to launch openfly BSD ... > > -Peter Hummers Would that be a porn site, Mr. Hummers? =2D-=20 Marc Ramirez Blue Circle Software Corporation 513-688-1070 (main) 513-382-1270 (direct) http://www.bluecirclesoft.com http://www.mrami.com (personal) --nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBBrgTZg1EgpGw750IRAowvAJ9JyEreHn4/klmQ1xD4GhyhqVx/lACfRbCu g3+SVcCFLYhPEpPQHyWA21Y= =cHl9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1230537.MqUr15VGLb-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 18:32:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B83E16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:32:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A7643D2D for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:32:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([66.11.169.52] helo=localhost ident=mailnull) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.8) id 1CZZGe-0007Jo-Gq; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:31:56 -0500 Received: from localhost.dbn ([127.0.0.1] helo=night.dbn) by night.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43 (FreeBSD)) id 1CZZHQ-000Kfu-GB; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:32:44 -0500 Received: (from db@localhost) by night.dbn (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id iB1IWZik079477; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:32:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from db@night.dbn) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:32:35 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: Peter Hummers Message-ID: <20041201183235.GD79077@night.dbn> References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:32:22 -0000 Hi, Replying to a random post. A well known solid company that offered support contracts for any of the bsd's to nervous corporation/ISPs might be able to survive. It is a chicken and egg situation and I doubt there is any well known solid company that could do it. - Diane From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 18:59:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CC716A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:59:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A422343D67 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:59:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 410D5770; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4005776B; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: <1101752162.41ab6762ab0b2@imp4-q.free.fr> Message-ID: <20041201105529.I59881-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:59:09 -0000 On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > My own capacity for contributing is very limited, but some time back I > made a posting offering to try upgrade the system's man command to the > most recent GNU version (which offers the nice feature that you can > read a manpage foo.1 in your current directory with "man ./foo.1" without > installing it). As I expected, I received not a single constructive > comment, but several comments on why it was not necessary because you > can use a groff command to read a manpage page instead. In fact there > were three mails making corrections to the exact groff command required, > but the irony of expecting regular users to know all this seemed lost > on the posters. man -M . foo1.man should work (assuming FBSDs man command is POSIX compliant; I haven't tried it). No need for GNU, and the emphasis over the last few years is less gnu in the base system, not more. I'm merely a 10 year FreeBSD user, not a developer. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 19:27:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1FC16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:27:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D215343D31 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:27:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06248; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:27:11 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20041201122606.05bbd928@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:27:04 -0700 To: Paul Robinson , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:27:23 -0000 They're entitled to do it if they can persuade people that they have added enough value for it to be worth the money. That's part of the BSD philosophy: to allow people to make money from value-added versions of the software. --Brett Glass At 09:54 AM 12/1/2004, Paul Robinson wrote: >... it's time to face, the final curtain. > >Inspired by the 3945634956295425258695 Linux distributions currently on >offer and seeing the relative ease with which DragonFly got off the >ground, it would appear, a few kids are trying to sell Free/DragonFlyBSD >without adding a huge amount: > >http://www.crescentanchor.com/ > >My favourite bit is with the Gold edition you get all those lovely >languages that are simply just too expensive to get hold of for humble >FreeBSD. > >I seem to remember seeing a couple of outfits like this a few years >back. Where did they all go? Did some gullible purchasing officer get >suckered in, order 100 server licenses and the kids ran off with all the >money? > >-- >Paul Robinson > >http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ >"All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 19:34:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F7D16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0256D43D4C for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D7E5C747; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6FC0652; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:34:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 11:34:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mark In-Reply-To: <200411291520.iATFK7Tt053419@redtick.homeunix.com> Message-ID: <20041201113259.M7680-100000@moo.sysabend.org> X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Google toolbar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:34:31 -0000 On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Mark wrote: > I notice in the last 2 weeks or so a new entry in my Sarg-Squid reports, > google toolbar traffic, may be for checking for updates or tracking > surfing habits, it seems to rotate one hour later each night. Has > anyone else noticed this in their reports? Read the manual. Google Toolbar, Deskbar, and Desktop Search all automaticly update themselves on a regular basis. Google Toolbar sends back anonymous stats on your web usage if you chose to leave it enabled (and it asks you during installation if you wish to leave that feature on or turn it off). Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 19:57:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D3C16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:57:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gldis.ca (constans.gldis.ca [66.11.169.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCC043D39 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:57:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gldis.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB1JrpSp051476; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:53:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Message-ID: <41AE227B.2090008@gldis.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:58:51 -0500 From: Jeremy Faulkner User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041123) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marian Hettwer References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130164804.6f2be049.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <41AD8657.9050308@kernel32.de> In-Reply-To: <41AD8657.9050308@kernel32.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80rc4/561/Fri Oct 29 06:26:00 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on constans.gldis.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:57:17 -0000 Marian Hettwer wrote: > Why doesn't someone ask for instance Yahoo. As far as I know they have > the largest FreeBSD Serverfarm worldwide. (Correct me if I'm wrong). > Ask them "Why do you use FreeBSD instead of Linux?" We already know their answer: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/doc/newsletter/issue1.pdf -- Jeremy Faulkner Resume: http://www.gldis.ca/gldisater/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 19:57:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E672716A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:57:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from corserv.corserv.com (tx-67-76-237-133.sta.sprint-hsd.net [67.76.237.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356A643D5E for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:57:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.com) Received: from [192.168.1.3] (cygni.corserv.com [192.168.1.3]) by corserv.corserv.com (8.12.11/8.11.6) with ESMTP id iB1L2doh012502; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:02:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.com) Message-ID: <41AE213D.1020102@corserv.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:53:33 -0600 From: Kevin Lyons User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden References: <20041201113259.M7680-100000@moo.sysabend.org> In-Reply-To: <20041201113259.M7680-100000@moo.sysabend.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Subject: Re: Google toolbar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:57:54 -0000 Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Mark wrote: > > >>I notice in the last 2 weeks or so a new entry in my Sarg-Squid reports, >>google toolbar traffic, may be for checking for updates or tracking >>surfing habits, it seems to rotate one hour later each night. Has >>anyone else noticed this in their reports? > > > Read the manual. Google Toolbar, Deskbar, and Desktop Search all > automaticly update themselves on a regular basis. Google Toolbar sends > back anonymous stats on your web usage if you chose to leave it enabled > (and it asks you during installation if you wish to leave that feature on > or turn it off). Yes. and watch tcpdump when you do a search of your windows harddisk from explorer. Windows sends data on your search to sa.windows.com; a good candidate to block on the firewall or reroute to localhost with Windows\hosts (at least until they change it to phone home somewhere else). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 20:14:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C44A16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:14:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gldis.ca (constans.gldis.ca [66.11.169.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C4643D39 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:14:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gldis.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iB1KBJYU051620; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:11:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gldisater@gldis.ca) Message-ID: <41AE2693.4090706@gldis.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 15:16:19 -0500 From: Jeremy Faulkner User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (X11/20041123) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201170336.GF60679@submonkey.net> <41AE0309.6050708@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <41AE0309.6050708@daleco.biz> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80rc4/561/Fri Oct 29 06:26:00 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on constans.gldis.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 20:14:47 -0000 Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P. wrote: > Now I wish I was just in a position to help keep it that way... > An occasional doc patch does not an OS make.... :-( > Puddles can grow into lakes if new drops of water are added to them. If no new drops of water are added to a puddle it will dry up. -- Jeremy Faulkner Resume: http://www.gldis.ca/gldisater/resume.html From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 22:28:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A3F16A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:28:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from www.cyclades.de (mail.cyclades.de [62.225.173.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A0C43D41 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:28:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mh@kernel32.de) Received: from pd9e0e027.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.224.224.39] helo=[192.168.100.104]) by www.cyclades.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CZcx3-0001Mp-00; Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:27:57 +0100 Message-ID: <41AE450B.5000805@kernel32.de> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:26:19 +0100 From: Marian Hettwer User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (X11/20040928) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Faulkner References: <20041129024602.GA23324@turingmachine.mentalsiege.net> <1101748454.41ab58e61eb88@imp2-q.free.fr> <1101788709.41abf62519b57@imp2-q.free.fr> <20041130002603.692153b7.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130145130.0aa893f1.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <20041130164804.6f2be049.cpressey@catseye.mine.nu> <41AD8657.9050308@kernel32.de> <41AE227B.2090008@gldis.ca> In-Reply-To: <41AE227B.2090008@gldis.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-SpamCheck: cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 22:28:02 -0000 Hej Jeremy, Jeremy Faulkner wrote: > Marian Hettwer wrote: > >> Why doesn't someone ask for instance Yahoo. As far as I know they have >> the largest FreeBSD Serverfarm worldwide. (Correct me if I'm wrong). >> Ask them "Why do you use FreeBSD instead of Linux?" > > > We already know their answer: > ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/doc/newsletter/issue1.pdf > thanks for the link. I didn't know that such a documentary already exists. However, it's pretty old. Yahoo is talking about FreeBSD 2.1 and 2.2 ... thats some years ago, and as far as I heard, they are still using FreeBSD on their webservers, but using Linux for their MySQL Cluster. Well... thanks anyway :) best regards, Marian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 1 22:35:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78EE216A4CE for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:35:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BCF43D53 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 22:35:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp2-q.free.fr (imp2-q.free.fr [212.27.42.2]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45260180DBA; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:25:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp2-q.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id ED3625741B; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:25:37 +0100 (MET) Received: from 219.64.132.92 ([219.64.132.92]) by imp2-q.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:25:37 +0100 Message-ID: <1101929137.41ae1ab1d5793@imp2-q.free.fr> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:25:37 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Bowden References: <20041201105529.I59881-100000@moo.sysabend.org> In-Reply-To: <20041201105529.I59881-100000@moo.sysabend.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.5 X-Originating-IP: 219.64.132.92 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The beastie boot menu. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 22:35:00 -0000 Quoting Jamie Bowden : > man -M . foo1.man should work (assuming FBSDs man command is POSIX > compliant; I haven't tried it). So try it then. (Hint: it doesn't. However, if you have a subdirectory man1 in your current working directory, and foo.1 inside that directory, then man -M . foo works. Again, try telling a naive user that.) > No need for GNU, and the emphasis over > the last few years is less gnu in the base system, not more. I have news for you: it's *already* GNU man, but an ancient version. Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 2 04:29:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3A016A4CE; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 04:29:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B562F43D48; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 04:29:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8F7A1512C7; Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:35:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:35:18 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20041202043518.GA43045@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <41AE3F80.1000506@freebsd.org> <20041201.205322.102612548.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041201.205322.102612548.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: scottl@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My project wish-list for the next 12 months X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:29:56 -0000 --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 08:53:22PM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <41AE3F80.1000506@freebsd.org> > Scott Long writes: > : 1. Keyboard multiplexer. We are running into problems with making > : ps/2 and USB/bluetooth keyboards work together and work with KVMs. > : Having a virtual keyboard device that multiplexes the various real > : keyboard devices and handles hotplug can solve this mess pretty > : effectively. I know that there has been a lot of talk about this on > : mailing lists recently but I don't know how much progress is being made > : so I'm listing it here. >=20 > There aready are multiplexers in the kernel. The problem is that we > need a many to one mux that is the OR of all the ones installed. We > can current set WHICH keyboard is connected to the mux, but can't say > 'ALL OF THEM' at all. I believe that Brooks Davis has said he's > working on this. Yeah, we need the ability for multiple cats to simultaneously send foot-related garbage to the console :) Kris --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBrpuGWry0BWjoQKURAuYAAJ9lwD8anwsSb+1D8RIYOEU2NPBy1gCg3Ory KOvDfK7M5zVpopMwE5EUv1s= =EleZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 2 08:49:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB7616A4CE for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:49:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E6F43D3F for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:49:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CZmes-000N1Q-FH; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:49:50 +0000 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:49:50 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Jeremy Faulkner Message-ID: <20041202084950.GK68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201170336.GF60679@submonkey.net> <41AE0309.6050708@daleco.biz> <41AE2693.4090706@gldis.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <41AE2693.4090706@gldis.ca> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:49:24 -0000 On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 03:16:19PM -0500, Jeremy Faulkner wrote: > Puddles can grow into lakes if new drops of water are added to them. If > no new drops of water are added to a puddle it will dry up. What's that noise I can hear? It sounds rather like... like the sound... no, it can't be... but it is... it's the sound of one hand clapping... -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 2 08:53:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CF616A4CE for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:53:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29FB43D3F for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:53:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CZmiE-000N2N-Q8; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:53:18 +0000 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:53:18 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Diane Bruce Message-ID: <20041202085318.GL68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <20041201124818.17FC59%0DAD03D2@iname.com> <20041201183235.GD79077@night.dbn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041201183235.GD79077@night.dbn> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:53:02 -0000 On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 01:32:35PM -0500, Diane Bruce wrote: > A well known solid company that offered support contracts for any of the > bsd's to nervous corporation/ISPs might be able to survive. It is a chicken > and egg situation and I doubt there is any well known solid company that > could do it. Well, IBM are doing it with Linux. No, no, you're right, they're not solid at all... I do actually know that there are plenty of SMEs out there who would love to move to Open Source, even if it were just Open Office and Thunderbird/Firefox but can't get any of the local support companies to provide a contract for assistance. I suspect it's the same all over the place. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 2 08:59:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B207E16A4CE for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:59:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7606A43D49 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:59:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1CZmoV-000N3v-G4; Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:59:47 +0000 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:59:47 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20041202085947.GM68012@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20041201165454.GJ68012@iconoplex.co.uk> <6.2.0.14.2.20041201122606.05bbd928@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20041201122606.05bbd928@localhost> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: And now, the Linux is near... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:59:16 -0000 On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 12:27:04PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > They're entitled to do it if they can persuade people that they have > added enough value for it to be worth the money. That's part of the > BSD philosophy: to allow people to make money from value-added > versions of the software. Oh no, I'm completely with you on the BSD thing and they have every right to. I was just commenting that it's funny they're selling DragonFly (that isn't production ready yet) without actually adding anything much. Come now, do you really think PHP/Perl/Python being installed as part of base is worth an extra $30? I'm not saying they haven't the right to do what they're doing - I'm just making fun of them for doing it the way they are doing it. If they had added a whole new package system, got tight integration between Desktop and OS, made it a comfortable consumer alternative to Linux/OS X, added in decent WINE support, not only had NDIS working but were able to exploit Windows audio and graphics drivers, and got SMP sorted, hell, *I'd* give them the $900 they're asking for Platinum. But they haven't done any of that it would seem, so I'm going to sit here and be all righteous and point and laugh and stuff. And because I'm both insecure and shallow, I'm going to invite you all to join in me doing so, thereby justifying my existence and enforcing my role within the peer group. Or something. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ "All I know is I'm not a Marxist" - Karl Marx From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 2 21:32:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71ED616A4CE; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:32:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F3D743D1F; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:32:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id E87275310; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:32:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 26564530A; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:32:34 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E0B73B873; Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:32:33 +0100 (CET) To: Kris Kennaway References: <41AE3F80.1000506@freebsd.org> <20041201.205322.102612548.imp@bsdimp.com> <20041202043518.GA43045@xor.obsecurity.org> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:32:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20041202043518.GA43045@xor.obsecurity.org> (Kris Kennaway's message of "Wed, 1 Dec 2004 20:35:18 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.64 cc: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: scottl@freebsd.org cc: "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: My project wish-list for the next 12 months X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:32:44 -0000 Kris Kennaway writes: > Yeah, we need the ability for multiple cats to simultaneously send > foot-related garbage to the console :) So Schr=F6dinger and Heisenberg are driving around in a car, and Heisenberg goes "I think we just ran over a cat." "Is it dead?" asks Schr=F6dinger. "I can't be certain", says Heisenberg. oh, wait, that was cat-related garbage, not foot-related garbage. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 4 22:27:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE7216A4CE for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 22:27:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D85F43D55 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 22:27:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21777; Sat, 4 Dec 2004 15:27:40 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.2.20041204152356.0616a190@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 15:27:38 -0700 To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav), Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <41AE3F80.1000506@freebsd.org> <20041201.205322.102612548.imp@bsdimp.com> <20041202043518.GA43045@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My project wish-list for the next 12 months X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 22:27:57 -0000 At 02:32 PM 12/2/2004, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >So Schrödinger and Heisenberg are driving around in a car, and >Heisenberg goes "I think we just ran over a cat." "Is it dead?" asks >Schrödinger. "I can't be certain", says Heisenberg. At which point, he turns around and looks, resulting in a fatal accident in which the car is squashed between two trucks. This is what's known as "collapsing the state." ;-P --Brett