From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 00:07:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F3D16A4CE; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 00:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EFC643D54; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 00:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i04877ET018694; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 01:07:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 01:06:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040104.010617.103670865.imp@bsdimp.com> To: nate@root.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040102151458.P10254@root.org> References: <200401022034.i02KYt7E002661@gw.catspoiler.org> <20040102151458.P10254@root.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: jhb@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Power Patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:07:10 -0000 In message: <20040102151458.P10254@root.org> Nate Lawson writes: : I get a panic on my T23 due to the ATA driver not being detected so no : rootvp. Attached are dmesg both before and after the patch. The cbb0 : issue is a regression since I have specified it to use an unused IO range : via this tunable (the same range Windows uses): : : hw.cbb.start_memory=0xc0203000 : : I commented out that tunable while testing the power kernel. Yes. I think I understand why unsupported ranges is needed for some bridges and not others. We need to learn about subtractive decoders in pci_pci.c, which is what I'm working on. Subtractive decoders should allow allocations through mostly untouched. If the range of the nominally decoded area is a subset of the requested range, however, we should clip it. If it isn't a superset, then it should pass through w/o molestation. This should allow things to work w/o these ugly hacks. It gives people that don't care (0, ~0) a sensible range, while allowing the BIOS to preallocate 'weird' locations for the cardbus bridge. Linux recently grew this ability and more recently got the Intel mobile quirks: /* * For some reasons Intel decided that certain parts of their * 815, 845 and some other chipsets must look like PCI-to-PCI bridges * while they are obviously not. The 82801 family (AA, AB, BAM/CAM, * BA/CA/DB and E) PCI bridges are actually HUB-to-PCI ones, according * to Intel terminology. These devices do forward all addresses from * system to PCI bus no matter what are their window settings, so they are * "transparent" (or subtractive decoding) from programmers point of view. */ This quirk is what we need to implement. Most of the pciconf dumps people have sent me have these parts in common and it wasn't until I went searching for information about them that I ran across a very extensive discussion about the issues which happened a few months ago. Of course, this explains what I thought was unexplainable: how a non-subtractive bridge could pass cycles. It really is a subtractive one, it just lies in its ProgIf. In addition, I'm starting to think that the cardbus bridge might want to reserve a certain amount of resources for possible children. This would obviate the need for the start_memory tunable as well (or at least make it a footnote rather than a checklist item in troubleshooting). However, this issue is orthogonal to the other issues and can be dealt with on its own. At some point we'll also have to deal with bus numbering too. I have a machine (my FIVA) that has no working cardbus as all, and I've had at least one other report of this on a new DELL laptop. : One thing you should fix is calling the acpi set methods with a NULL : pointer: : : pci2: Failed to set ACPI power state D3 on (null): AE_BAD_PARAMETER : : You should probably just skip the call to the acpi set power state if it's : null. I didn't write that part of the code. It exists solely in the p4 power tree. It isn't in my p4 newcard tree. I suspect that null functions shouldn't be called. I also hope that integrating it into my newcard tree will make my dell happier on suspend/resume (right now it really really cranky when I suspend/resume). I'll look into fixing it if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Despite the negative reports, the testing has been good in a number of ways. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 01:28:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F7D16A4CE; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 01:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D0A43D4C; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 01:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=ganbold.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with asmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 5.1) id 1Ad4U4-00099o-PI; Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:23:44 +0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040104165741.029d6940@202.179.0.80> X-Sender: ganbold@micom.mng.net@202.179.0.80 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:32:17 +0800 To: freebsd-ipfw@freebsd.org From: Ganbold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ipfw2 problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:28:40 -0000 Hi, I'm using FreeBSD 5.2-current machine for firewall. It is configured as a bridged ipfw2 firewall. Also this machine works a a traffic shaper using ip dummynet features. The machine has 2GHz Pentium 4 CPU and 128MB RAM and 3 Intel Pro 100MB cards. 2 cards are used for bridging. Everything works fine, except sometimes it seems to be dropping some packets. When I try to browse the web, sometimes it just shows error page. This situation happens during peak hours So my guess is firewall drops packets and maybe the machine needs more RAM. Another guess is I'm using stateful features of ipfw2 and when dynamic rule count reaches maximum it just drops packets waiting to be deleted some dynamic rules. Am I right? Can somebody explain me what will happen when net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_count reaches net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max value? Also I tried to increase the maximum value up to 8192 but it seems no result. # Added in sysctl.conf net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max=8192 I attached my /etc/rc.firewall and /etc/sysctl.conf files. Can somebody tell me where I did wrong in config files? Should I increase the RAM? Or should I set smaller life time for dynamic rules? I hope somebody in this list point me to the right direction. Part of the /etc/rc.firewall ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... [Cc][Uu][Ss][Tt][Oo][Mm]) ${fwcmd} -f flush ${fwcmd} -f pipe flush # Things that we have kept state on before get to go through in a hurry ${fwcmd} add 10 check-state ${fwcmd} add 21 deny all from 10.0.0.0/8 to any via fxp0 ${fwcmd} add 23 deny all from 172.16.0.0/12 to any via fxp0 ${fwcmd} add 25 deny all from 192.168.0.0/16 to any via fxp0 ${fwcmd} add 34 deny all from 127.0.0.0/8 to any in via fxp0 ################### stop Welcia/Nachi ########################### ${fwcmd} add 35 deny icmp from any to any iplen 92 ####################### DUMMYNET config ######################### ##################### 64KB ####################################### # # selenge ${fwcmd} pipe 41 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 42 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 62 pipe 41 all from 202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 63 pipe 42 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 # khentii ${fwcmd} pipe 43 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 44 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 64 pipe 43 all from 202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 65 pipe 44 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 # arkhangai ${fwcmd} pipe 45 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 46 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 66 pipe 45 all from 202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 67 pipe 46 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 # traffic police ${fwcmd} pipe 47 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 48 config bw 64kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 68 pipe 47 all from 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/28 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 69 pipe 48 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/28 in via fxp0 ##################### 128KB ####################################### # # glencore ${fwcmd} pipe 49 config bw 128kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 50 config bw 128kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 70 pipe 49 all from 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 71 pipe 50 all from any to 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 # ikh tenger ${fwcmd} pipe 51 config bw 128kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 52 config bw 128kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 72 pipe 51 all from 202.179.x.x/29 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 73 pipe 52 all from any to 202.179.x.x/29 in via fxp0 # xas ${fwcmd} pipe 53 config bw 128kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 54 config bw 128kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 74 pipe 53 all from 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 75 pipe 54 all from any to 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 ##################### 256KB ####################################### #mtc ${fwcmd} pipe 55 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 56 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 76 pipe 55 all from 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/29 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 77 pipe 56 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/29 in via fxp0 #gtz ${fwcmd} pipe 57 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 58 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 78 pipe 57 all from 202.179.x.x/28 to any in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 79 pipe 58 all from any to 202.179.x.x/28 in via fxp0 ######################### STANDARDS ######################### # Allow TCP through if setup succeeded ${fwcmd} add 100 pass tcp from any to any established # Allowing connections through localhost. ${fwcmd} add 300 pass all from any to any via lo0 # pass ARP ${fwcmd} add 301 allow layer2 mac-type arp # Allow the inside hosts to say anything they want ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any in via fxp1 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any in via fxp1 keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass ip from any to any in via fxp1 # Allowing SSH,web connection and LOG all incoming connections. ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 22 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 80,443 in via fxp0 setup keep-state # Allowing and LOG all INCOMING, outgoing FTP, telnet, SMTP, POP3, ident, imap conections. ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 20-21,23,25,110,113,143 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 20-21,23,25,110,113,143 in via fxp0 keep-state # Pass the "quarantine" range ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 18198,18211,40000-65535 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 18198,18211,40000-65535 in via fxp0 keep-state # MSN, Yahoo ports ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 1863,2001-2120,6801,6891-6901,7801-7825 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 1863,2001-2120,6801,6891-6901,7801-7825 in via fxp0 keep-state # additional h323,yahoo,remote admin,vnc ports ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 1719-1725,2082,5000-6000,8010,8100 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 1719-1725,2082,5000-6000,8010,8100 in via fxp0 keep-state # Allowing mysql,Jabber,IRC,chat. ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 3306,4899,6155,6502,6667,8000 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 3306,4899,6155,6502,6667,8000 in via fxp0 keep-state # allow radius ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 1645,1646,1812,1813,9000-9002 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 1645,1646,1812,1813,9000-9002 in via fxp0 keep-state # additional eMule ports ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in via fxp0 keep-state # Allowing DNS lookups. ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 53 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 53 in via fxp0 keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any 53 to any in via fxp0 keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass icmp from 202.179.x.x/19 to any icmptypes 0,3,4,8,11,12 ${fwcmd} add pass icmp from not 202.179.x.x/19 to 202.179.x.x/19 icmptypes 0,3,4,11,12 # Allowing SOCKS,HTTP proxy to outside only ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from 202.179.x.x/19 to any 1080,8080 in via fxp0 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from 202.179.x.x/19 to any 1080,8080 in via fxp0 keep-state # Allow the bridge machine to say anything it wants ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from 202.179.x.x to any setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from 202.179.x.x to any keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass ip from 202.179.x.x to any ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any in via fxp2 setup keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any in via fxp2 keep-state ${fwcmd} add pass ip from any to any in via fxp2 # Allow NTP queries out in the world ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 123 in via fxp0 keep-state # allow multicast ${fwcmd} add pass all from 202.179.x.x/19 to 224.0.0.0/4 via fxp0 ${fwcmd} add pass all from 224.0.0.0/4 to 202.179.x.x/19 via fxp0 # Allowing OSPF ${fwcmd} add pass ospf from any to any # Allowing GRE ${fwcmd} add pass gre from any to any # Allowing IP fragments to pass through. ${fwcmd} add 65001 pass all from any to any frag # Everything else is suspect ${fwcmd} add drop log ip from any to any ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- /etc/sysctl.conf file. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- net.link.ether.bridge_cfg=fxp0:0,fxp1:0 net.link.ether.bridge_ipfw=1 net.link.ether.bridge.enable=1 net.inet.ip.fw.one_pass=0 security.bsd.see_other_uids=0 net.link.ether.inet.max_age=1200 kern.ipc.somaxconn=1024 net.inet.tcp.sendspace=32768 net.inet.tcp.recvspace=32768 net.inet.ip.sourceroute=0 net.inet.ip.accept_sourceroute=0 # Stop broadcast ECHO response net.inet.icmp.bmcastecho=0 # Stop other broadcast probes net.inet.icmp.maskrepl=0 net.inet.tcp.blackhole=2 net.inet.udp.blackhole=1 net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max=8192 net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_ack_lifetime=3600 net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_udp_lifetime=10 net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_buckets=1024 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- tia, Ganbold From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 11:01:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCD316A4CE; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:01:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (xorpc.icir.org [192.150.187.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A5343D53; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:01:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo@icir.org) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i04J1BZv079812; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:01:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.3/Submit) id i04J1Aud079811; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 11:01:10 -0800 From: Luigi Rizzo To: Eugene Grosbein Message-ID: <20040104110110.A79771@xorpc.icir.org> References: <3FF714C6.1D099404@grosbein.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3FF714C6.1D099404@grosbein.pp.ru>; from eugen@grosbein.pp.ru on Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 02:15:18AM +0700 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: ache@freebsd.org Subject: Re: syslog X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 19:01:12 -0000 On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 02:15:18AM +0700, Eugene Grosbein wrote: > Hi! > > ache@freebsd.org wrote 8 years ago in src/lib/libc/gen/syslog.c: > > p += sprintf(p, "%.15s ", ctime(&now) + 4); > > What is '+ 4' for? quite likely it is to skip the 'day of week' field -- the ctime manpage says The ctime() function adjusts the time value for the current time zone in the same manner as localtime(), and returns a pointer to a 26-character string of the form: Thu Nov 24 18:22:48 1986\n\0 All the fields have constant width. so it makes sense cheers luigi > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/lib/libc/gen/syslog.c.diff?r1=1.2&r2=1.3 > > Eugene Grosbein > > P.S. Please CC me, I'm not in list > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 14:42:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 683) id D69A516A4CF; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:42:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 14:42:48 -0800 From: Eivind Eklund To: Bruce Evans Message-ID: <20040104224248.GA25819@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040104171102.T22231@gamplex.bde.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: src-committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9 sx.9 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 22:42:49 -0000 On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 05:12:21PM +1100, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jan 2004, Scott Long wrote: > > > M. Warner Losh wrote: > > > In message: <20040103111653.D317F16A4CF@hub.freebsd.org> > > > jkoshy@FreeBSD.org (Joseph Koshy) writes: > > > : How does one communicate information about a kernel configuration > > > : to the KLD build? I'm getting by now by manually `#define'ing the > > > : relevant CPP symbols, but am looking for a better solution. > > For INVARIANTS, always use INVARIANT_SUPPORT in kernels (this shouldn't > be optional), This was implemented as an option because serious use of invariants tends to increase the size of data structures etc, and to provide extra hooks that waste codespace (not that significant any more). Eivind. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 16:33:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1221016A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBCE43D1D for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:33:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp110-54.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.110.54])i050XWp5040914; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:03:32 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i050XTU6016693; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:03:31 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Bruce Cran Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:03:28 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040101161519.GA4247@buffy.brucec.backnet> In-Reply-To: <20040101161519.GA4247@buffy.brucec.backnet> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401051103.28443.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -5 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: utility to set idle timeout on ata drives X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 00:33:40 -0000 On Friday 02 January 2004 02:45, Bruce Cran wrote: > describes how to get a FreeBSD 5.1 or later computer to spin-down > ata hard drives - I've been searching for a while for a utility to > do this, and after failing to find one I decided to write it myself. > If people are interested I can add more power management features > and possibly create a package/port of it. Apologies if this is > off-topic for -hackers - I hope people might find this information > useful. This would probably best be made part of atacontrol (and submit a patch for it) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 16:52:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28E516A4CE; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80B543D2F; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=ganbold.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with asmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 5.1) id 1AdIuH-000CV6-29; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:47:45 +0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040105085202.029b8820@202.179.0.80> X-Sender: ganbold@micom.mng.net@202.179.0.80 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:56:13 +0800 To: Don Bowman From: Ganbold In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-ipfw@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: ipfw2 problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 00:52:37 -0000 Hi, How much memory does your machine have? I have never tried ipfw with -d option. I'll try next time. Actually one_pass is already turned off in sysctl.conf Any other recommendations? One suggested me to remove keep-state from http filtering rules. Will it solve the problem? Ganbold At 01:41 AM 05.01.2004, you wrote: >i have: > >sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_buckets=16384 >sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_syn_lifetime=5 >sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max=32000 >sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.debug=0 >sysctl net.inet.ip.dummynet.max_chain_len=256 >sysctl net.inet.ip.dummynet.hash_size=1024 >sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.verbose_limit=1 > >and am running ~3000 users with ~2 sessions each, stateful, with shaping. > >i wonder what you get if you run ipfw -d show when your error happens? > >i wonder if your shaper is getting full and droping the syn packets that >setup the flow? maybe if you put the shaper rules @ the end and turned off >one-pass? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ganbold [mailto:ganbold@micom.mng.net] > > Sent: January 4, 2004 4:32 AM > > To: freebsd-ipfw@freebsd.org > > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > > Subject: ipfw2 problem > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm using FreeBSD 5.2-current machine for firewall. It is > > configured as a > > bridged ipfw2 firewall. > > Also this machine works a a traffic shaper using ip dummynet features. > > The machine has 2GHz Pentium 4 CPU and 128MB RAM and 3 Intel > > Pro 100MB > > cards. 2 cards are used > > for bridging. > > Everything works fine, except sometimes it seems to be > > dropping some packets. > > When I try to browse the web, sometimes it just shows error > > page. This > > situation happens during peak hours > > So my guess is firewall drops packets and maybe the machine > > needs more RAM. > > Another guess is I'm using stateful features of ipfw2 and > > when dynamic rule > > count reaches maximum > > it just drops packets waiting to be deleted some dynamic > > rules. Am I right? > > Can somebody explain > > me what will happen when net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_count reaches > > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max value? > > > > Also I tried to increase the maximum value up to 8192 but it > > seems no result. > > > > # Added in sysctl.conf > > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max=8192 > > > > I attached my /etc/rc.firewall and /etc/sysctl.conf files. > > Can somebody tell me where I did wrong in config files? > > Should I increase > > the RAM? > > Or should I set smaller life time for dynamic rules? > > > > I hope somebody in this list point me to the right direction. > > > > Part of the /etc/rc.firewall > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > ... > > [Cc][Uu][Ss][Tt][Oo][Mm]) > > > > ${fwcmd} -f flush > > ${fwcmd} -f pipe flush > > > > # Things that we have kept state on before get to go through > > in a hurry > > ${fwcmd} add 10 check-state > > > > ${fwcmd} add 21 deny all from 10.0.0.0/8 to any via fxp0 > > ${fwcmd} add 23 deny all from 172.16.0.0/12 to any via fxp0 > > ${fwcmd} add 25 deny all from 192.168.0.0/16 to any via fxp0 > > > > ${fwcmd} add 34 deny all from 127.0.0.0/8 to any in via fxp0 > > > > ################### stop Welcia/Nachi ########################### > > ${fwcmd} add 35 deny icmp from any to any iplen 92 > > > > ####################### DUMMYNET config ######################### > > > > ##################### 64KB ####################################### > > # > > # selenge > > ${fwcmd} pipe 41 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 42 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 62 pipe 41 all from 202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 63 pipe 42 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 > > > > # khentii > > ${fwcmd} pipe 43 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 44 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 64 pipe 43 all from 202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 65 pipe 44 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 > > > > # arkhangai > > ${fwcmd} pipe 45 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 46 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 66 pipe 45 all from 202.179.x.x/30 to any in via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 67 pipe 46 all from any to 202.179.x.x/30 in via fxp0 > > > > # traffic police > > ${fwcmd} pipe 47 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 48 config bw 64kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 68 pipe 47 all from > > 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/28 to any in > > via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 69 pipe 48 all from any to > > 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/28 in > > via fxp0 > > > > ##################### 128KB ####################################### > > # > > # glencore > > ${fwcmd} pipe 49 config bw 128kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 50 config bw 128kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 70 pipe 49 all from > > 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 to any in > > via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 71 pipe 50 all from any to > > 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 in > > via fxp0 > > > > # ikh tenger > > ${fwcmd} pipe 51 config bw 128kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 52 config bw 128kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 72 pipe 51 all from 202.179.x.x/29 to any in via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 73 pipe 52 all from any to 202.179.x.x/29 in via fxp0 > > > > # xas > > ${fwcmd} pipe 53 config bw 128kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 54 config bw 128kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} add 74 pipe 53 all from > > 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 to any in > > via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 75 pipe 54 all from any to > > 202.179.x.x/29,202.179.x.x/30 in > > via fxp0 > > > > > > ##################### 256KB ####################################### > > #mtc > > ${fwcmd} pipe 55 config bw 256kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 56 config bw 256kbit/s > > > > ${fwcmd} add 76 pipe 55 all from > > 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/29 to any in > > via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 77 pipe 56 all from any to > > 202.179.x.x/30,202.179.x.x/29 in > > via fxp0 > > > > #gtz > > ${fwcmd} pipe 57 config bw 256kbit/s > > ${fwcmd} pipe 58 config bw 256kbit/s > > > > ${fwcmd} add 78 pipe 57 all from 202.179.x.x/28 to any in via fxp1 > > ${fwcmd} add 79 pipe 58 all from any to 202.179.x.x/28 in via fxp0 > > > > ######################### STANDARDS ######################### > > # Allow TCP through if setup succeeded > > ${fwcmd} add 100 pass tcp from any to any established > > > > # Allowing connections through localhost. > > ${fwcmd} add 300 pass all from any to any via lo0 > > > > # pass ARP > > ${fwcmd} add 301 allow layer2 mac-type arp > > > > # Allow the inside hosts to say anything they want > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any in via fxp1 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any in via fxp1 keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass ip from any to any in via fxp1 > > > > # Allowing SSH,web connection and LOG all incoming connections. > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 22 in via fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 80,443 in via fxp0 > > setup keep-state > > > > # Allowing and LOG all INCOMING, outgoing FTP, telnet, SMTP, > > POP3, ident, > > imap conections. > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 20-21,23,25,110,113,143 in via > > fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 20-21,23,25,110,113,143 > > in via fxp0 > > keep-state > > > > # Pass the "quarantine" range > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 18198,18211,40000-65535 > > in via fxp0 > > setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 18198,18211,40000-65535 > > in via fxp0 > > keep-state > > > > # MSN, Yahoo ports > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any > > 1863,2001-2120,6801,6891-6901,7801-7825 in via fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any > > 1863,2001-2120,6801,6891-6901,7801-7825 in via fxp0 keep-state > > > > # additional h323,yahoo,remote admin,vnc ports > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any > > 1719-1725,2082,5000-6000,8010,8100 in > > via fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any > > 1719-1725,2082,5000-6000,8010,8100 in > > via fxp0 keep-state > > > > # Allowing mysql,Jabber,IRC,chat. > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any > > 3306,4899,6155,6502,6667,8000 in via > > fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any > > 3306,4899,6155,6502,6667,8000 in via > > fxp0 keep-state > > > > # allow radius > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any > > 1645,1646,1812,1813,9000-9002 in via > > fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any > > 1645,1646,1812,1813,9000-9002 in via > > fxp0 keep-state > > > > # additional eMule ports > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any > > 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in > > via fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any > > 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in > > via fxp0 keep-state > > > > # Allowing DNS lookups. > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any 53 in via fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 53 in via fxp0 keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any 53 to any in via fxp0 keep-state > > > > ${fwcmd} add pass icmp from 202.179.x.x/19 to any icmptypes > > 0,3,4,8,11,12 > > ${fwcmd} add pass icmp from not 202.179.x.x/19 to > > 202.179.x.x/19 icmptypes > > 0,3,4,11,12 > > > > # Allowing SOCKS,HTTP proxy to outside only > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from 202.179.x.x/19 to any 1080,8080 in via > > fxp0 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from 202.179.x.x/19 to any 1080,8080 in > > via fxp0 > > keep-state > > > > # Allow the bridge machine to say anything it wants > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from 202.179.x.x to any setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from 202.179.x.x to any keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass ip from 202.179.x.x to any > > > > ${fwcmd} add pass tcp from any to any in via fxp2 setup keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any in via fxp2 keep-state > > ${fwcmd} add pass ip from any to any in via fxp2 > > > > # Allow NTP queries out in the world > > ${fwcmd} add pass udp from any to any 123 in via fxp0 keep-state > > > > # allow multicast > > ${fwcmd} add pass all from 202.179.x.x/19 to 224.0.0.0/4 via fxp0 > > ${fwcmd} add pass all from 224.0.0.0/4 to 202.179.x.x/19 via fxp0 > > > > # Allowing OSPF > > ${fwcmd} add pass ospf from any to any > > > > # Allowing GRE > > ${fwcmd} add pass gre from any to any > > > > # Allowing IP fragments to pass through. > > ${fwcmd} add 65001 pass all from any to any frag > > > > # Everything else is suspect > > ${fwcmd} add drop log ip from any to any > > ... > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > /etc/sysctl.conf file. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > net.link.ether.bridge_cfg=fxp0:0,fxp1:0 > > net.link.ether.bridge_ipfw=1 > > net.link.ether.bridge.enable=1 > > > > net.inet.ip.fw.one_pass=0 > > security.bsd.see_other_uids=0 > > net.link.ether.inet.max_age=1200 > > kern.ipc.somaxconn=1024 > > net.inet.tcp.sendspace=32768 > > net.inet.tcp.recvspace=32768 > > > > net.inet.ip.sourceroute=0 > > net.inet.ip.accept_sourceroute=0 > > > > # Stop broadcast ECHO response > > net.inet.icmp.bmcastecho=0 > > > > # Stop other broadcast probes > > net.inet.icmp.maskrepl=0 > > > > net.inet.tcp.blackhole=2 > > net.inet.udp.blackhole=1 > > > > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max=8192 > > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_ack_lifetime=3600 > > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_udp_lifetime=10 > > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_buckets=1024 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > tia, > > > > Ganbold > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jan 4 17:40:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC4416A4CE for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65F643D31 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (bicknell@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i051eL2x010896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i051eLI4010895 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:40:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:40:21 -0500 From: Leo Bicknell To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040105014021.GA10653@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <6.0.1.1.2.20040104165741.029d6940@202.179.0.80> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040104165741.029d6940@202.179.0.80> Organization: United Federation of Planets X-PGP-Key: http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Subject: Re: ipfw2 problem X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 01:40:23 -0000 --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message written on Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 05:32:17PM +0800, Ganbold wrot= e: > me what will happen when net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_count reaches=20 > net.inet.ip.fw.dyn_max value? As a random passing thought... Anytime a new dynamic rule is denied due to reaching dyn_max, a new counter, eg, "dropped_dyn_rules" should be incremented, so the user can at least verify the limit is the problem. --=20 Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+MCFNh6mMG5yMTYRApbuAJ98eJNMMR8yYX0dMm9A8WCBXO6fRQCeMrlI YkxHTR4LjIRdvxF8S3Yst8I= =A8vt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 04:44:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E6E16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 04:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mailout.informatik.tu-muenchen.de [131.159.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC20143D1F for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 04:44:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from langd@informatik.tu-muenchen.de) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:44:49 +0100 From: langd-freebsd-hackers@leo.org To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20040105124449.GB46859@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> References: <20040101.233009.58826299.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040101.233009.58826299.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Geek: GCS/CC d-- s: a- C++$ UBS++++$ P+++$ L- E-(---) W+++(--) N++ o K w--- O? M? V? PS+(++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP+ t++ 5+++ X R+(-) tv+ b+ DI++ D++ G++ e+++ h---(-) r++>+++ y+ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at informatik.tu-muenchen.de Subject: Re: Power Patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:44:51 -0000 Hi Warner, M. Warner Losh wrote on Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 11:30:09PM -0700: [..] > http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/power.20040101.diff [..] Hmmm, alas, the patch does not apply clean any more. It seems a recent commit to dev/pccbb/pccbb.c breaks this part of the patch. Not patching the file breaks the build because CBB_KLUDE_ALLOC is no longer defined. Applying the patch reverse doesn't work, either (no surprise, I guess). I've cvsupped and built the source today (Jan 5, 2003) and tried to test the patch. Could you provide an updated patch? Thanks & best regards, Daniel -- IRCnet: Mr-Spock - In dieser Mail ist ein Geist, der Dich in den Hintern beisst - Daniel Lang * dl@leo.org * +49 89 289 18532 * http://www.leo.org/~dl/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 04:42:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B49A16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 04:42:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mailout.informatik.tu-muenchen.de [131.159.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB0743D39 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 04:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from langd@informatik.tu-muenchen.de) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:42:27 +0100 From: Daniel Lang To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20040105124227.GA46859@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> References: <20040101.233009.58826299.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040101.233009.58826299.imp@bsdimp.com> X-Geek: GCS/CC d-- s: a- C++$ UBS++++$ P+++$ L- E-(---) W+++(--) N++ o K w--- O? M? V? PS+(++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP+ t++ 5+++ X R+(-) tv+ b+ DI++ D++ G++ e+++ h---(-) r++>+++ y+ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at informatik.tu-muenchen.de X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 04:57:03 -0800 cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Power Patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:42:31 -0000 --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Warner, M. Warner Losh wrote on Thu, Jan 01, 2004 at 11:30:09PM -0700: [..] > http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/power.20040101.diff [..] Hmmm, alas, the patch does not apply clean any more. It seems a recent commit to dev/pccbb/pccbb.c breaks this part of the patch. Not patching the file breaks the build because CBB_KLUDE_ALLOC is no longer defined. Applying the patch reverse doesn't work, either (no surprise,=20 I guess). I've cvsupped and built the source today (Jan 5, 2003) and tried to test the patch. Could you provide an updated patch? Thanks & best regards, Daniel --=20 IRCnet: Mr-Spock =20 - In dieser Mail ist ein Geist, der Dich in den Hintern beisst -=20 Daniel Lang * dl@leo.org * +49 89 289 18532 * http://www.leo.org/~dl/ --/9DWx/yDrRhgMJTb Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIIXgAYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIXcTCCF20CAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC FUAwggbMMIIFtKADAgECAgIVezANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCBpjELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxETAP BgNVBAcTCE11ZW5jaGVuMSkwJwYDVQQKEyBUZWNobmlzY2hlIFVuaXZlcnNpdGFldCBNdWVu Y2hlbjEiMCAGA1UECxMZRmFrdWx0YWV0IGZ1ZXIgSW5mb3JtYXRpazEYMBYGA1UEAxMPUkJH LUJlbnV0emVyLUNBMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxjYUBpbi50dW0uZGUwHhcNMDMwNTIwMTIz MTQyWhcNMDQwNTIxMDAwMDAwWjCBqzELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxETAPBgNVBAcTCE11ZW5jaGVu MSkwJwYDVQQKEyBUZWNobmlzY2hlIFVuaXZlcnNpdGFldCBNdWVuY2hlbjEiMCAGA1UECxMZ RmFrdWx0YWV0IGZ1ZXIgSW5mb3JtYXRpazEUMBIGA1UEAxMLRGFuaWVsIExhbmcxJDAiBgkq 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Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208D016A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A085343D1D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i05FmqET036242; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:48:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 08:48:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040105.084813.132072543.imp@bsdimp.com> To: langd-freebsd-hackers@leo.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040105124449.GB46859@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> References: <20040101.233009.58826299.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040105124449.GB46859@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Power Patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:48:55 -0000 In message: <20040105124449.GB46859@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> langd-freebsd-hackers@leo.org writes: : Could you provide an updated patch? I've been working on creating an updated one, but I need to patch a couple of things before it will be ready. If all goes well, I'll have it out this afternoon (I'm testing a couple of last things). If it doesn't, then later in the week. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 10:30:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0EC16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30DD43D1F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EE749F059; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 731F644AD5; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:30:03 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 10:30:03 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: aU2JvBZOOKEuTCfCpjGTXA 1073327403 Message-Id: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:30:12 -0000 I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down everyone's throat. The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past. Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically). If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about). You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. Sincerely, Maxim Hermion FreeBSD committer PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 10:43:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39E016A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 608CD43D31; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i05Ih9PC004990; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:43:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:43:09 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:43:08 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPTuhLtpJzTaZt2QCazoj8gxp61TwAAT+DQ From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Maxim Hermion" , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:43:15 -0000 This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. -----Original Message----- From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm]=20 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of=20 more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down=20 everyone's throat. =20 The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely=20 ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past.=20 Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically).=20 If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about). You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. Sincerely, Maxim Hermion FreeBSD committer PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:40:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3F916A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39DF43D48; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i05JeMPC020626; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:40:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:40:22 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:40:21 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPTwQiQiBtZpqw3Rei+tJK6/6jFkAAAn5CA From: "Munden, Randall J" To: , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:40:27 -0000 Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would someone please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD this is troubling. --rjm-- -----Original Message----- From: Chris Doherty [mailto:chris@randomcamel.net]=20 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:21 PM To: Munden, Randall J Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? there is no "Maxim Hermion", and the email was sent from a free webmail site. please ask Google before feeding the troll. :-) chris On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:43:08PM -0600, Munden, Randall J said:=20 > This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM > To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 > years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds"=20 > FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit=20 > disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be=20 > pushing the project in a direction that has made things more=20 > difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for=20 > experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to=20 > push their personal projects down > everyone's throat. =20 >=20 > The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to=20 > minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has=20 > been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his=20 > superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted=20 > by Greg, > atm) > he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If=20 > one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the > spelling) > would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even=20 > entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample=20 > timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a=20 > result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to=20 > the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain=20 > "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the > half-finished devd monster, > et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put=20 > his name in lights at some point in the long past. >=20 > Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp=20 > development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the > archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the > number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it=20 > would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he=20 > was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who > still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant > work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other=20 > commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could > work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and=20 > Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in=20 > proving the opposite statistically). >=20 > If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better=20 > get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that=20 > rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter=20 > interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet=20 > filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly=20 > random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi.=20 > The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through > backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a=20 > threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was > to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for=20 > either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something=20 > that someone actually actively _cares_ about). >=20 > You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see),=20 > Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done=20 > more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of=20 > quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything=20 > more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or=20 > usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have=20 > attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit=20 > into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have=20 > around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt > into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying=20 > Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by > the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where > it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for=20 > one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's,=20 > and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it=20 > extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders=20 > personally with a clue bat. >=20 > All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I > personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the=20 > project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the=20 > -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was=20 > an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for=20 > most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project.=20 > I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but > instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own=20 > respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man=20 > publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the=20 > walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk > will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a=20 > cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical=20 > excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current=20 > -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code. >=20 > Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer >=20 > PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me=20 > wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in > -core. >=20 > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ------------------------------- Chris Doherty chris [at] randomcamel.net "I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne ------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:47:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7CE16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49AE43D1D; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:47:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46A23D28; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:47:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Munden, Randall J" Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 14:47:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FF978F7.6417.EE52D19E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:47:21 -0000 On 5 Jan 2004 at 13:40, Munden, Randall J wrote: > Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls > all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would > someone please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD > this is troubling. Don't let trolls trouble you no matter how many you see. They aren't contributing. And I second what Colin said. One troll. Many disguises. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:27:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C955116A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sizone.org (mortar.sizone.org [65.126.154.242]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1166943D4C; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dgilbert@daveg.ca) Received: by sizone.org (Postfix, from userid 66) id 51E9430429; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by canoe.dclg.ca (Postfix, from userid 101) id C0F4A1D1E81; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:27:10 -0500 (EST) From: David Gilbert MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16377.51358.654007.640448@canoe.dclg.ca> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:27:10 -0500 To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.4 (patch 14) "Reasonable Discussion" XEmacs Lucid Subject: Glide point documentation. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:27:14 -0000 Does anyone out there have Glidepoint documentation? I'd like to hack on the driver. Dave. -- ============================================================================ |David Gilbert, Independent Contractor. | Two things can only be | |Mail: dave@daveg.ca | equal if and only if they | |http://daveg.ca | are precisely opposite. | =========================================================GLO================ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:29:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B0616A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C2443D55; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:29:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1548449F298; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 2E0853A8C6; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:29:38 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: "Jason Andresen" Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:29:38 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: SP6HTv58Zkxw0gpw1ttqpA 1073334578 References: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> <3FF9AF8B.2060100@mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3FF9AF8B.2060100@mitre.org> Message-Id: <20040105202938.2E0853A8C6@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:29:55 -0000 Aloha! On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:40:11 -0500, "Jason Andresen" said: > > Maxim Hermion > > FreeBSD committer > > Who? > > Is there a list of the actual committers and their email addresses > anywhere? I've not had any luck looking around the website. It would > be nice to be able to point at it when trolls come around. You don't get it, do you? If I used my real name, the people from the core team would threaten me again, ergo, I use this slightly modified name. Ask Hiten Pandya what a bunch of elitists these guys are. They flooded him with racist comments. And don't get me started on our friend phk, the most arrogant person I've ever met: (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=poul-henning+flame&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&selm=DERAADT.96Oct20024208%40zeus.theos.com&rnum=2) "You're a dimwit, a sub-iq moron actually, and on your way to a mental breakdown that we can only aid the world in speeding up :-)" This shows the attitude common among FreeBSD committers. Everything I've said is true, get over it. Mux P.S: What's with that random idiot on freenode passing as me? -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:33:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571C016A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231DA43D31; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:33:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from muxhermion@fastmail.fm) Received: from server1.messagingengine.com (server1.internal [10.202.2.132]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F208949F2A9; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by server1.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 1388843D72; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 1.2 (F2.71; T1.001; A1.51; B2.12; Q2.03) From: "Maxim Hermion" To: "Brett Glass" , "Munden, Randall J" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:33:24 -0800 X-Sasl-Enc: neVnGJ3UKZ0pjQJDcsyg2Q 1073334804 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> Message-Id: <20040105203325.1388843D72@server1.messagingengine.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:33:29 -0000 On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:14:46 -0700, "Brett Glass" said: > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > project. Not going to happen, as long as these guys are in charge. Greg Lehey, the most elitist member of core, is one prime example of this. With all the politics involved, and the little progress made in critical areas like SMP in the last 6 months, I'm happy the DragonFlyBSD is making such fast progress since, by now, it's pretty obvious to most people that RELENG_5 is a dead end, and FreeBSD has lost most of it's appeal. Mux -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:40:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E8216A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12D643D2F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from lizacnet.demon.co.uk ([80.177.208.105]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AdbW4-0002bd-0V; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:40:00 +0000 From: Mark Dixon To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:40:38 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> <20040105203325.1388843D72@server1.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <20040105203325.1388843D72@server1.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401052040.40671.mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:40:02 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 20:33, Maxim Hermion wrote: > by now, it's > pretty obvious to most people that RELENG_5 is a dead end, and FreeBSD > has lost most > of it's appeal. I don't think thats the case _yet_, but, IMHO a lot of credibility is on th= e=20 line now. If 5.3 does not become 5-STABLE, it will be lost. Just my 2p Mark =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+cvGLqgJ90OcaiARAspnAJ4nXZXH5PJosxdKS9oDzg5M2XGNRgCeJjS5 bhFtbCwIi1g2yRfFhG2+hWU=3D =3Dgnpk =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:22:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5310516A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E02D43D2F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from lizacnet.demon.co.uk ([80.177.208.105]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Add7Q-0002Jb-0U; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:22:41 +0000 From: Mark Dixon To: "Remko Lodder" , Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:23:28 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040105220036.06CF92B4D47@remco.elvandar.org> In-Reply-To: <20040105220036.06CF92B4D47@remco.elvandar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: clearsigned data Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401052223.35749.mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:22:43 -0000 =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 22:01, Remko Lodder wrote: > I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org > I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org > I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. Sorry yeah, I didn't phrase that all that well. I also fully support the=20 people putting hours of their time into producing a great OS. I just think= =20 that with all of this mud being thrown, some of it is starting to stick. Mark =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+ePmLqgJ90OcaiARAuPrAKD44kok+WrOBnDEt/a39RKq6c+4GwCfeBIe 6N7mnoWJFWcCKARVNUpBCIY=3D =3DIEuG =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:29:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44FB16A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail4.speakeasy.net (mail4.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920DF43D31 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 9254 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2004 22:29:56 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 5 Jan 2004 22:29:56 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i05MTqM0021579; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:29:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20040102151458.P10254@root.org> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:29:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Nate Lawson X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Power Patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:29:57 -0000 On 04-Jan-2004 Nate Lawson wrote: > I get a panic on my T23 due to the ATA driver not being detected so no > rootvp. Attached are dmesg both before and after the patch. The cbb0 > issue is a regression since I have specified it to use an unused IO range > via this tunable (the same range Windows uses): > > hw.cbb.start_memory=0xc0203000 > > I commented out that tunable while testing the power kernel. > > One thing you should fix is calling the acpi set methods with a NULL > pointer: > > pci2: Failed to set ACPI power state D3 on (null): AE_BAD_PARAMETER > > You should probably just skip the call to the acpi set power state if it's > null. Well, see, I'm not sure yet what pointer is null. That is the output of acpi_name() on a handle. It would help to know what bus/device/func that is and if your ASL has a correspondnig device in the tree or not. It may be that acpi_handle() is returning NULL and in that case I guess we should just not try to adjust ACPI power resources/_PSx but just stick to the pci powerstate stuff. If you could verify what is actually NULL that could help however. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 15:00:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F391D16A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468BF43D1F; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i05N0HPC007903; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:00:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:00:15 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:00:14 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1A@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPTzeiSOcDA2ww5Rba73Nxs97bkCgAEDOfA From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Brett Glass" , , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 23:00:20 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org]=20 > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 2:53 PM > To: Munden, Randall J; chris@randomcamel.net;=20 > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > At 12:40 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: > =20 > >Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls=20 > >all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would=20 > >someone please explain what is going on? As a production=20 > user of fBSD=20 > >this is troubling. >=20 > It's probably one of the Slashdot "BSD is dead" trolls. The=20 > fact is, though, that there ARE things about FreeBSD that=20 > could stand improvement. These days, when I build a box, I am=20 > torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is not ready for=20 > prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and=20 > using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the=20 > developers broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes=20 > to -STABLE. This *is* a real issue for those of us who are admins. I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm preparing to load up some machines for production soon (I've already put it off for too long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with=20 both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly=20 anecdotal). Perhaps I've just become spoiled by each new -RELEASE=20 being ten times better than the previous one or perhaps I'm just=20 becoming a bit neurotic with age but I'm not seeing the progression=20 of improvement I've come to expect (or perhaps only imagined?). Don't misinterpret the above, I <3 fBSD and I'll not soon replace=20 it with anything else. But I do like to look ahead to see what's coming. >=20 > FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux=20 > in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption).=20 > Again, this is a governance=20 > issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy=20 > toward advocacy,=20 > since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too=20 > many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd=20 > their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy busy and not paying much attention. >=20 > --Brett >=20 >=20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 16:44:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE5816A4CE for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from python.evilrealms.net (evilrealms.demon.co.uk [62.49.12.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E5443D39 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:43:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jay@evilrealms.net) Received: from evilrealms.net (viper.evilrealms.net [192.168.1.2]) by python.evilrealms.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521445C2F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:43:09 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 00:43:20 +0000 From: Jay Cornwall User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 00:44:38 -0000 Hi I've just finished a patch to alleviate several panics in the ugen driver (related to devfs issues and setting a USB device's configuration to USB_UNCONFIG_NO). I'm about to submit to freebsd-current@, but I need to clarify something first. When setting a USB device to configuration number USB_UNCONFIG_NO (i.e. 0), the device goes into an unconfigured state with an invalid dev->cdesc. How does one then leave this unconfigured state and reconfigure the device to accept configuration changes? (all USB_SET_CONFIG changes are currently refused after going into configuration 0 - I'm not sure if this is the desired behaviour or a bug) All I can think of is unplugging/plugging the device back in. In which case, why would we want to let users set USB_UNCONFIG_NO in the first place? -- Cheers, Jay http://www.evilrealms.net/ - Systems Administrator & Developer http://www.imperial.ac.uk/ - 3rd year CS student From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 00:17:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EAEF16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3981443D1F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:17:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i068HSN1076467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:17:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i068HKMO091152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:17:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i068HKBE041807; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:17:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i068HFLY041806; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:17:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:17:14 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Jay Cornwall Message-ID: <20040106081714.GH39786@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 08:17:57 -0000 On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 12:43:20AM +0000, Jay Cornwall wrote: > Hi > > I've just finished a patch to alleviate several panics in the ugen driver > (related to devfs issues and setting a USB device's configuration to > USB_UNCONFIG_NO). I'm about to submit to freebsd-current@, but I need to > clarify something first. Sounds great! > When setting a USB device to configuration number USB_UNCONFIG_NO (i.e. 0), > the device goes into an unconfigured state with an invalid dev->cdesc. How > does one then leave this unconfigured state and reconfigure the device to > accept configuration changes? (all USB_SET_CONFIG changes are currently > refused after going into configuration 0 - I'm not sure if this is the > desired behaviour or a bug) I have to read the docs first bevor making a qualified comment about this. > All I can think of is unplugging/plugging the device back in. In which > case, why would we want to let users set USB_UNCONFIG_NO in the first place? You can always reset the hub port. Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO shouldn't be allowed IMO - it can easily happen by accident. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 00:57:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03E116A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E1043D2D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=ganbold.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with asmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 5.1) id 1AdmxD-000Hyv-1l; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:52:47 +0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040106165754.02a5b918@202.179.0.80> X-Sender: ganbold@micom.mng.net@202.179.0.80 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:01:11 +0800 To: freebsd-ipfw@freebsd.org From: Ganbold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: dummynet question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 08:57:30 -0000 Hi, I'm using FreeBSD 5.2-current machine for firewall. It is configured as a bridged ipfw2 firewall. Also this machine works a a traffic shaper using ip dummynet features. I'm trying to limit bandwidth for some particular application, for example eMule p2p application. I'm doing it in the following way: # eMule ${fwcmd} pipe 59 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 60 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 80 pipe 59 ip from 202.179.x.x/19 to any 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 81 pipe 60 ip from any to 202.179.x.x/19 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in via fxp0 Am I doing right? tia, Ganbold From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 01:39:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD81516A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from publicd.ub.mng.net (publicd.ub.mng.net [202.179.0.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C39B43D48; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ganbold@micom.mng.net) Received: from [202.179.0.164] (helo=ganbold.micom.mng.net) by publicd.ub.mng.net with asmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 5.1) id 1AdncF-000IC4-V5; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:12 +0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040106174330.02935ab8@202.179.0.80> X-Sender: ganbold@micom.mng.net@202.179.0.80 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:43:34 +0800 To: freebsd-ipfw@freebsd.org From: Ganbold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: dummynet question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 09:39:53 -0000 Hi, I'm using FreeBSD 5.2-current machine for firewall. It is configured as a bridged ipfw2 firewall. Also this machine works a a traffic shaper using ip dummynet features. I'm trying to limit bandwidth for some particular application, for example eMule p2p application. I'm doing it in the following way: # eMule ${fwcmd} pipe 59 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} pipe 60 config bw 256kbit/s ${fwcmd} add 80 pipe 59 ip from 202.179.x.x/19 to any 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in via fxp1 ${fwcmd} add 81 pipe 60 ip from any to 202.179.x.x/19 2323,4242,4243,4661-4672,7700-7800 in via fxp0 Am I doing right? tia, Ganbold From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 03:55:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D0916A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.huji.ac.il (cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4222443D45; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32] ident=danny) by cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1AdpoE-000PWn-3N; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:55:42 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:55:41 +0200 From: Danny Braniss Message-Id: cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: rcng guru needed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:55:45 -0000 while hunting down the problem that my diskless configuration is not starting the loopback interface i came about the following: rcorder does not list network, but it does network_ipv6 further checking reveals: in /etc/rc.d/dhclient: # PROVIDE: dhclient # REQUIRE: network netif mountcritlocal # BEFORE: NETWORKING and in /etc/rc.d/NETWORKING: # PROVIDE: NETWORKING NETWORK # REQUIRE: network dhclient altqd netif routing network_ipv6 isdnd ppp-user # REQUIRE: routed mrouted route6d mroute6d no amount of efford has succeeded in getting network on the rcorder list, i.e: in /etc/rc.d/amd # PROVIDE: amd # REQUIRE: network rpcbind mountall nfsclient # BEFORE: DAEMON does not have the requiered effect, so how can i get network to run? (the logic says that it should not requiere network, since nfsclient does). danny From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 04:16:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0755916A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 04:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7F943D45; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 04:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i06CFsN1079348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:16:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06CFm47027493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:15:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06CFmBE042652; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:15:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i06CFl0a042651; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:15:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:15:47 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Danny Braniss Message-ID: <20040106121546.GP39786@cicely12.cicely.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rcng guru needed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:16:14 -0000 On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 01:55:41PM +0200, Danny Braniss wrote: > > while hunting down the problem that my diskless configuration is not > starting the loopback interface i came about the following: Mmmm - everythings OK for me: [51]cicely14# ifconfig lo0 lo0: flags=8049 mtu 16384 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x4 The only tricky issue with diskless was to set root_rw_mount="YES" for not ending in an md based /var. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 11:16:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB3616A4E2; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34F0143D64; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:15:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14744; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:14:48 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 12:14:46 -0700 To: "Munden, Randall J" , "Maxim Hermion" , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:23:55 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:16:20 -0000 I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the project. --Brett Glass At 11:43 AM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion@fastmail.fm] >Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM >To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org >Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? > > >I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 >years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" >FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit >disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be >pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, >instead of >more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and >made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects >down >everyone's throat. > >The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to >minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been >mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his >superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by >Greg, >atm) >he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If >one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the >spelling) >would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even >entirely >ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That >suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest >attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can >later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to >pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, >et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his >name in lights at some point in the long past. > >Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp >development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the >archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the >number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would >delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. >I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't >gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but >he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help >along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might >attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter >anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite >statistically). > >If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get >out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting >pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface >for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no >central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat >through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that >Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and >recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security >than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly >honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit >or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually >actively _cares_ about). > >You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, >you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with >FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, >like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip >that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There >are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically >correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee >club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the >talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap >fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most >intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the >superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, >and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his >frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although >I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have >just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. > >All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I >personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the >project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the >-core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an >extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of >-core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say >that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead >of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective >feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You >talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most >of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling >though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable >people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, >imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the >touchy-feely, hack the code. > >Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer > >PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, >but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. > >-- >http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >To unsubscribe, send any mail to >"freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 12:53:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6187F16A4D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C83D43D4C; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:53:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16019; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:52:52 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:52:50 -0700 To: "Munden, Randall J" , , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:23:55 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:53:07 -0000 At 12:40 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all >trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would someone >please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD this is >troubling. It's probably one of the Slashdot "BSD is dead" trolls. The fact is, though, that there ARE things about FreeBSD that could stand improvement. These days, when I build a box, I am torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is not ready for prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the developers broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes to -STABLE. This *is* a real issue for those of us who are admins. FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:00:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E6216A4D0 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from remco.elvandar.org (cust.94.120.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.94.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B9D43D1D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:00:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Mark Dixon" , Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:01:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <20040105204208.6EAAB2B4D65@remco.elvandar.org> Importance: Normal Message-Id: <20040105220036.06EED2B4D50@remco.elvandar.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:23:55 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:00:44 -0000 Hi all freebsd users, I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. I also think that's very sad news to recieve on these days, why are people sending this, But then again, i am a loyal freebsd.org fan, i will stick some of my machines with freebsd os'es, and i am sure the freebsd.org crew can handle this. You have my vote!! Cheers Remko Lodder -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: freebsd-hackers-bounces@lists.elvandar.org [mailto:freebsd-hackers-bounces@lists.elvandar.org]Namens Mark Dixon Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2004 21:41 Aan: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Onderwerp: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 20:33, Maxim Hermion wrote: > by now, it's > pretty obvious to most people that RELENG_5 is a dead end, and FreeBSD > has lost most > of it's appeal. I don't think thats the case _yet_, but, IMHO a lot of credibility is on the line now. If 5.3 does not become 5-STABLE, it will be lost. Just my 2p Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+cvGLqgJ90OcaiARAspnAJ4nXZXH5PJosxdKS9oDzg5M2XGNRgCeJjS5 bhFtbCwIi1g2yRfFhG2+hWU= =gnpk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _______________________________________________ Freebsd-hackers mailing list Freebsd-hackers@lists.elvandar.org http://lists.elvandar.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 14:31:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF43A16A4D0 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from remco.elvandar.org (cust.94.120.adsl.cistron.nl [195.64.94.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55AB43D3F for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Mark Dixon" , Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:32:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <20040105222301.B95742B4D65@remco.elvandar.org> Importance: Normal Message-Id: <20040105223112.E37E32B4D65@remco.elvandar.org> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:23:55 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:31:15 -0000 Mark, You are totally right with the stuff that is starting to stick. Let us all be happy and continue to support the freebsd.org core team. Internal fights are pretty common, no one can ever be happy with other's choices. But i think it's a shame that one would have to resign or worse the freebsd project hangs and perhaps gets killed by this foolish actions. Keep hanging tight guys!!! Regards, Remko Lodder -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Mark Dixon [mailto:mark@markdnet.demon.co.uk] Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2004 23:23 Aan: Remko Lodder; freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Onderwerp: Re: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 22:01, Remko Lodder wrote: > I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org > I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org > I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. Sorry yeah, I didn't phrase that all that well. I also fully support the people putting hours of their time into producing a great OS. I just think that with all of this mud being thrown, some of it is starting to stick. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+ePmLqgJ90OcaiARAuPrAKD44kok+WrOBnDEt/a39RKq6c+4GwCfeBIe 6N7mnoWJFWcCKARVNUpBCIY= =IEuG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 5 19:16:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDF016A4CE; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294F443D41; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:16:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20965; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:16:08 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105201330.04837720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:16:08 -0700 To: "Munden, Randall J" , , From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1A@y6001a.umb.corp.umb .com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1A@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 05:23:55 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:16:21 -0000 At 04:00 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm preparing to load >up some machines for production soon (I've already put it off for too >long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with >both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly >anecdotal). I don't think that *this* conversation is mud slinging. What's happening on Slashdot, on the other hand, is. >> >> FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux >> in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). >> Again, this is a governance >> issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy >> toward advocacy, >> since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too >> many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd >> their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. > >I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy busy >and not paying much attention. Nope, it's not because you're too busy. It's true. FreeBSD is getting fewer mentions in the mainstream press, and fewer commercial apps, lately. Linux is mentioned as if it was the ONLY alternative to Windows. Work is needed to raise FreeBSD's profile. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:31:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7050616A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net (adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net [68.76.19.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEAA43D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luke@foolishgames.com) Received: from [192.168.2.49] (adsl-67-36-56-113.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net [67.36.56.113]) (authenticated bits=0)ESMTP id i06DVdxL041954; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:31:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from luke@foolishgames.com) X-Authentication-Warning: adsl-68-76-19-75.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net: Host adsl-67-36-56-113.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net [67.36.56.113] claimed to be [192.168.2.49] In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lucas Holt Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:31:54 -0500 To: Brett Glass X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:31:47 -0000 Experienced programmers can be leaders very effectively if they get feedback regularly from users. Its part of software development to communicate with users. Provided the leadership listens to users requirements, and acts in that interest there is no problem. In reality, there are several types of users of FreeBSD including: Programmers System Administrators College Students (i fit in the first 3 groups) Hobbyists and young people who heard its like linux (lol) (sorry if i left your group out) Lucas Holt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:50:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F44116A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from deluge.umist.ac.uk (deluge.umist.ac.uk [130.88.120.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6238443D54; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:50:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lewiz@black.lewiz.org) Received: from lh014.halls.umist.ac.uk ([130.88.163.14] helo=yellow.lewiz.org) by deluge.umist.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AdrbE-0005aX-Hl; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:50:24 +0000 Received: from ip31.lewiz.org ([192.168.0.31] helo=black.lewiz.org) by mail.lewiz.org with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1Adrc4-0001X4-Jq; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:51:16 +0000 Received: (nullmailer pid 4699 invoked by uid 4001); Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:50:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:50:59 +0000 From: Lewis Thompson To: Maxim Hermion Message-ID: <20040106135058.GA4419@lewiz.org> References: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> X-GPG-Fingerprint: 90A4 939E 3847 A3E4 8103 2A48 22DA B428 542F ED3F X-GPG-Info: http://www.westwood.karoo.net/pgpkey / horowitz.surfnet.nl User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:50:34 -0000 --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 10:30:03AM -0800, Maxim Hermion wrote: > I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 > years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" >=20 > Sincerely, > Maxim Hermion > FreeBSD committer Dare I ask for some form of proof this is you? Later on you say you can't use your real name but you don't think that anybody is stupid enough to not notice the similarity in your name? How about a signed reply? -lewiz. --=20 I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. --Bob Dylan, 1964. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -| msn:purple@lewiz.net | jabber:lewiz@jabber.org | url:www.lewiz.org |- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+r1CItq0KFQv7T8RAtPlAJ9VinJSgJ7E994xhgmyw3tfuODpiQCg9gef f9diOSf0z2//v1Lwz5Jc0Fs= =g5c9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:53:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 804B916A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F6943D5D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:52:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mux@freebsd.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1920) id CDF075C7F0; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:52:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:52:58 +0100 From: Maxime Henrion To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106135258.GP2060@elvis.mu.org> References: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:53:00 -0000 Hi all, Since several people actually thought this mail was written by me, I'm replying here to tell it wasn't. This mail was sent by the same guy who periodically impersonate one of the FreeBSD committers to rant about the project. His mail doesn't reflect my thoughts at all. Please all let this thread die. Thanks, Maxime From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 05:55:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBD516A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nalle.netsonic.fi (netsonic.fi [194.29.192.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3303843D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:55:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from markus.kovero@grafikansi.fi) Received: from shaggy (pilosus.grafikansi.fi [81.17.198.68]) by nalle.netsonic.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i06DtXg10024; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:55:34 +0200 Message-ID: <00f401c3d45c$b4de67a0$4600a8c0@shaggy> From: "Markus Kovero" To: "Brett Glass" References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:55:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:55:38 -0000 Brett Glass wrote: > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > project. Yeah, good point but group of leaders should be well organized and they should know what they are doing. We dont want freebsd development go like linux goes nowadays and always has been. The key is communication between enduser and dev-group. Not enduser doing dev-groups job. Greets Markus Kovero From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 06:24:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353E016A4D0; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 06:24:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368F643D55; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 06:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBA53D28; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:24:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 09:24:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FFA7EB7.32065.F25158B9@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Chello blocking FreshPorts service X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:24:10 -0000 For some months Chello has denied smtp service from the FreshPorts mail server. All queries to Chello regarding this matter have gone unanswered. $ telnet smtpgate.chello.at 25 Trying 213.46.255.2... Connected to smtpgate.chello.at. Escape character is '^]'. 421 viefep12-int.chello.at connection refused from [66.154.97.250] Connection closed by foreign host. This happens for all Chello domains I have tried. This means that Chello users are unable to use the FreshPorts notification service. For what it's worth, this also affect the FreeBSD Diary announcement mailing list. If anyone has contacts at Chello, please ask them to look into this. All attempts to get this resolved have been blocked. I've heard many stories about Chello standards of service. This situation validates everything I've heard. cheers -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 07:56:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308FC16A4D6 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1B743D2F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id A2D225C814; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:56:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:56:35 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106155635.GS9623@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: turn .so into .o? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:56:36 -0000 Is there a way to turn a .so into a .o? I would like to link something statically, and I'm doing a bunch of work on the symbol table and would like to avoid a mess with using ar(1). -- - Alfred Perlstein - Research Engineering Development Inc. - email: bright@mu.org cell: 408-480-4684 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 08:14:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5731816A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sandvine.com (sandvine.com [199.243.201.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3748543D3F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:14:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from AdilK@sandvine.com) Received: by mail.sandvine.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:14:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Adil Katchi To: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:14:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:14:09 -0000 I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). Any help would be appreciated. Adil From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:05:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D47616A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBB543D48; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:05:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i06H5LPC022462; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:05:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:05:21 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:05:20 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPUWLYKkL+Xg77+TIC8yzx3CA6VhAAGm+MQ From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Brett Glass" , , cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:05:25 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org]=20 > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 9:16 PM > To: Munden, Randall J; chris@randomcamel.net;=20 > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > At 04:00 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: >=20 > >I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm=20 > preparing to load=20 > >up some machines for production soon (I've already put it=20 > off for too=20 > >long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with=20 > >both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly=20 > >anecdotal). >=20 > I don't think that *this* conversation is mud slinging.=20 > What's happening on Slashdot, on the other hand, is. Right, I typed that wrong. This conversation certainly isn't mud slinging -- open, honest discussion can do nothing but good [no=20 matter the outcome]. Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to=20 why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling=20 these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the=20 reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people=20 accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs All I can do now is apologize for 'feeding the troll' or rather,=20 sorry for calling attention to a subject that may be painful,=20 clich=E9 or overused to others. >=20 > >>=20 > >> FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux > >> in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption).=20 > >> Again, this is a governance=20 > >> issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy=20 > >> toward advocacy,=20 > >> since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too=20 > >> many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd=20 > >> their "sandbox." So, some of the criticism is actually valid. > > > >I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy=20 > busy and not=20 > >paying much attention. >=20 > Nope, it's not because you're too busy. It's true. FreeBSD is=20 > getting fewer mentions in the mainstream press, and fewer=20 > commercial apps, lately. Linux is mentioned as if it was the=20 > ONLY alternative to Windows. Work is needed to raise=20 > FreeBSD's profile. Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can=20 I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the=20 last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering=20 nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I=20 need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more=20 Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS=20 has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. >=20 > --Brett >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list=20 > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/free> bsd-hackers > To=20 > unsubscribe, send any mail to=20 > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:07:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE14B16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819B043D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (66-91-236-204.san.rr.com [66.91.236.204]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30855B6D1; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:34 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr To: Brett Glass , "Munden, Randall J" , "Maxim Hermion" , Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:07:34 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105121215.0465f8a0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:07:39 -0000 On Monday 05 January 2004 11:14 am, Brett Glass wrote: > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > project. The current system of governance is open and inclusive of those who have demonstrated the talent, ability, and willingness to be contributors to FreeBSD. The current core team is made up of a mix of big-time coders like Peter and Warner, and small-time coders like myself (now slightly below middle of the pack on commits) and a variety of other skills. I strongly encourage all FreeBSD committers to continuously watch for people who might be good core team members. Watch for leadership, for a sense of fair play, and for the ability to steer FreeBSD, from both technical and organizational viewpoints. Look for someone with 'the big picture,' and a vision of where FreeBSD is headed that you share. Somebody whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the virtual memory system, for instance, may be critical to the success of a kernel, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best person to steer a complex product that brings 10,000 applications along with it. We don't appear to have anyone like that on core now, and I doubt we will in the future. Programmers, system administrators, end users, and anyone else who wants to contribute to FreeBSD are welcome to contribute in whatever way they can. Anyone can file a PR about any aspect of the system they find troubling, or delightful, or have a better way of doing. Strike up a relationship with a committer or two (or twenty), let your ability and willingness to work be known, and become a committer too. 400 or so of your peers have already done it. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:22:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C728A16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from woozle.rinet.ru (woozle.rinet.ru [195.54.192.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A1643D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woozle.rinet.ru (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06HLvNq038281; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:21:57 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:21:57 +0300 (MSK) From: Dmitry Morozovsky To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> Message-ID: <20040106201826.T35394@woozle.rinet.ru> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> X-NCC-RegID: ru.rinet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Brett Glass cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:22:09 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Wes Peters wrote: WP> Programmers, system administrators, end users, and anyone else who wants WP> to contribute to FreeBSD are welcome to contribute in whatever way they WP> can. Anyone can file a PR about any aspect of the system they find WP> troubling, or delightful, or have a better way of doing. Strike up a WP> relationship with a committer or two (or twenty), let your ability and WP> willingness to work be known, and become a committer too. 400 or so of WP> your peers have already done it. marck@woozle:~/FreeBSD> cat CVSROOT*/access* | sort -u | grep -c '^[a-z]' 327 While you're absolutely right with the whole pic, the mob of people currently wearing a commit bit is 25% smaller ;) Sincerely, D.Marck [DM5020, MCK-RIPE, DM3-RIPN] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** Dmitry Morozovsky --- D.Marck --- Wild Woozle --- marck@rinet.ru *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:23:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DAD16A4D0; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD5143D58; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (66-91-236-204.san.rr.com [66.91.236.204]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C68172DD7; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr To: "Munden, Randall J" , "Brett Glass" , , Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:22:47 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:23:00 -0000 On Tuesday 06 January 2004 09:05 am, Munden, Randall J wrote: > > Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to > why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling > these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the > reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no > other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people > accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful results. > Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can > I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the > last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering > nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I > need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more > Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? Yes, to all of the above. Pick the one(s) you enjoy most, or that you wish to learn most, and dig in. Best of all would be to write or fix some code, or write some articles that get printed on dead trees -- what Brett likes to call 'the mainstream press.' You know, those things the IT management leaves on the floor of the mens room. > Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS > has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual 'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old father is a Mac owner. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:28:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5CC16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3134D43D4C; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:28:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 0D9CF530A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:28:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 31E335308; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:28:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id B8B6D33C9A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:28:23 +0100 (CET) To: "Munden, Randall J" References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:28:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523EE@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> (Randall J. Munden's message of "Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:43:08 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:28:43 -0000 "Munden, Randall J" writes: > This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. No, just a better email filter. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 09:35:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B587116A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD5C43D46; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:35:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Adv6v-0008VY-NB; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:21 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:16 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> In-Reply-To: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:35:26 -0000 Munden, Randall J wrote: >Right, I typed that wrong. This conversation certainly isn't mud >slinging -- open, honest discussion can do nothing but good [no >matter the outcome]. > The cleverness of the "troll" was: 1. It was written by somebody who at the least had read these lists for at least the last two years 2. It aired the real frustrations of those of us without commit bits 3. It was on the whole, apart from the personal attacks, reasonably correct. >Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can >I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the >last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering >nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I >need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more >Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util works? Submit a patch. Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out his changes and then lost his commit bit. This was because there was an "imminent commit" due from somebody working on SMP, which still isn't finished really. As for users, sysadmins, people who through advocacy go about sourcing funding, sponsorship, support? They "don't matter". It's the first time I've seen a software project where users are almost actively despised. Sometimes I get confused and think I must be reading an OpenBSD list instead - that's how they do it over there, and that's why I haven't run OBSD for 4 years. In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user. Who cares about users? This is their project after all. And yeah, people will think I'm trolling, but I'm not. I'm just not happy with the way non-programmers are treated. My perogative, but as the project is defined as being a group of developers, it's not my project and therefore my opinion is worthless. Ask yourself this: What is the core goal of the FreeBSD project? To produce the "best" in it's class? Best for who? Developers? Are you a developer? Maybe it's not the OS for you then unfortunately. Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making use of DragonFly. At least they listen to people who don't submit patches due to the limitations of time/skill/whatever. No, I'm not a Matt fan - I like and respect most on -core and others. I just think 5- has got... well, it's all a bit out of hand really, isn't it? All they had to do was ask a few sysadmins and end users what they thought. All of this could have been avoided nearly 2 years ago. Just my tuppence worth, which few are interested in, but ho-hum. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:01:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77F416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E59C43D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AdvUT-0008a2-Q8; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:41 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFAF788.9020906@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:36 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200401060922.47152.wes@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Munden, Randall J" cc: chris@randomcamel.net cc: Brett Glass cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:01:15 -0000 Wes Peters wrote: >People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to >apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful >results. > Incorrect. Everybody who hates believes they have a rational reason for doing so. That others do not think that those reasons are rational is why hatred increases, and why ultimately, Europe has, on the whole and recently (last 60 years) in a more fragmented fashion, spent the last 2,000 years at war. But that's another issue. >Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett >apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our >needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual >'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS >X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old >father is a Mac owner. > And that's all well and good. But if you don't consult end-users in general, you're going down a slippery slope. Do not be suprised if after years of hard work when you finally -RELEASE, if the world of end-users sidles up to you at the launch party and whispers in your ear "You realise what you've produced is a pile of shit, right?" - you never listened to what they wanted, and so not suprisingly you missed it. If you don't have a set of aims to measure by, it's oh so easy to claim success when all the outsiders think you've spent too much time on the crack pipe. All I'm suggesting (and no, I'm not the troll, but I'd thank him, whoever he is), is that maybe the Theo de Raadt school of thought that "only developers count" is not a grown-up, mature and efficient system of software development when we all have definite goals in mind. Nobody is asking anybody to work for free. I'm suggesting that non-developers can assist developers in refining the project's goals, aims, direction and make sure that the work the developers carry out is the best possible. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:11:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032D516A4F6 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from arginine.spc.org (arginine.spc.org [195.206.69.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F6943D39 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:11:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bms@spc.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1066520E; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:11:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from arginine.spc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arginine.spc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 88065-01; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:11:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from saboteur.dek.spc.org (unknown [82.147.19.189]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by arginine.spc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41399651FA; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:11:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: by saboteur.dek.spc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EAFD1C3; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:11:41 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:11:41 +0000 From: Bruce M Simpson To: Adil Katchi Message-ID: <20040106181141.GA5995@saboteur.dek.spc.org> Mail-Followup-To: Adil Katchi , "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: cc: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:11:50 -0000 On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user > that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities > by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch > between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and > groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA > (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups > and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could be added. Or just call setgroups() with a no-op group-list vector and then setgid()/ setegid() from within your application. BMS From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 10:19:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605D16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnsmail2.umb.com (dnsmail2.umb.com [198.136.201.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34AB43D5F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Randall.Munden@umb.com) Received: from y8107a.umb.corp.umb.com (viruswall2.umb.com [192.168.3.213]) by dnsmail2.umb.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i06IJHPC019689; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:19:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com ([172.19.51.30]) by y8107a with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:19:16 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:19:16 -0600 Message-ID: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F6@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Where is FreeBSD going? Thread-Index: AcPUed1J6u48cR1wQDuVfDPOPnhfxQAB008g From: "Munden, Randall J" To: "Wes Peters" , X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-25.0 required=6.0 tests=Relay2_out autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on dnsmail2.umb.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:19:53 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Peters [mailto:wes@softweyr.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:23 AM > To: Munden, Randall J; Brett Glass; chris@randomcamel.net;=20 > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? >=20 >=20 > On Tuesday 06 January 2004 09:05 am, Munden, Randall J wrote: > > > > Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to why > > someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling these lists. > > In my experience it's a good idea to explore the reasoning behind that=20 > > type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. =20 > > On-the-other-hand some people accuse me of being obsessive about=20 > > information. /me shrugs >=20 > People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. =20 > Attempting to=20 > apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to=20 > produce useful=20 > results. >=20 Correct. s/reasoning/root cause/ That's what I intended. > --=20 >=20 > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? >=20 > Wes Peters =20 > wes@softweyr.com >=20 >=20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:22:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149C016A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.catspoiler.org (217-ip-163.nccn.net [209.79.217.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEEC43D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (mousie.catspoiler.org [192.168.101.2]) by gw.catspoiler.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06JMD7E014616; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from truckman@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200401061922.i06JMD7E014616@gw.catspoiler.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) From: Don Lewis To: brett@lariat.org In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: Randall.Munden@umb.com cc: chris@randomcamel.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:22:26 -0000 On 5 Jan, Brett Glass wrote: > It's probably one of the Slashdot "BSD is dead" trolls. The fact is, though, > that there ARE things about FreeBSD that could stand improvement. These > days, when I build a box, I am torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is > not ready for prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and > using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the developers > broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes to -STABLE. This *is* > a real issue for those of us who are admins. The worst breakage of 4-STABLE in recent memory was the PAE commit, which I got the impression was driven by end-user demand. Probably folks who had expensive systems with > 4GB of RAM who wanted to be able to run 4-STABLE production systems and make use of all that RAM right now and not wait for 5.x to become production-worthy. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:23:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F78316A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9509A43D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:23:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06JMUUd088340; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:22:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i06JMUTS088337; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:22:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:23:53 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares > about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the > way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util > works? Submit a patch. While it's clearly the case that many people have met with the "submit a patch" response, that's probably more a property of time constraints from developers than a lack of desire to work with users to produce a system users want. Many FreeBSD developers find FreeBSD of particular appeal because it gives them a chance to produce a system they've always wanted to use: one that addresses the frustrations of many other systems out there. For example, a fair number of FreeBSD developers have their time funded by Internet Service Providers who appreciate the scalability, performance, and mangeability of FreeBSD when deployed on tens of thousands of machines. They bring changes to FreeBSD regularly reflecting those needs. Many FreeBSD developers do hang out in the public IRC channels and try to answer questions, hang out on questions@, stable@, etc. Sometimes, you post a question and get the answer "That doesn't work yet, but we're looking for a few good developers...", but frequently, you also get a patch and "If you could try this and see if it helps with your problem..." Obviously, the harder question you ask, the more likely you'll get "We're looking for a few good developers..." :-). The marketting department of Microsoft may be able to keep their less user-friendly developers from talking to their users, but many people would argue that one of the greatest benefits of open source is increasing that communication, even if it means the unwashed developers talk to real people once in a while. A great many developers pick FreeBSD to work on because they're quite aware of what users of other systems have to deal with, and want to produce a system people can use. But no one is paying the bills for hand-holding, so unless people step up to do the hand holding (thanks greatly to those who do!) it's not going to happen. We'd appreciate your help in making it happen, if that's something that strikes you as done wrong or poorly. As with any commercial software development enterprise, we also have limited resources, but unlike a commercial software development enterprise, we can help involve a much larger community in building and supporting a product. > Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various > other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making > use of DragonFly. At least they listen to people who don't submit > patches due to the limitations of time/skill/whatever. No, I'm not a > Matt fan - I like and respect most on -core and others. I just think 5- > has got... well, it's all a bit out of hand really, isn't it? The reality is that operating system development takes a lot of time, energy, and expertise. We can't pull a next generation operating system out of hats overnight -- it takes literally hundreds of man years of work to do. It's not something one, three, or even ten people can do alone. FreeBSD 5.x remains a work in progress, but has made a lot of progress in the right direction. I think what you think of as "madness" is a necessary step on the path of a major engineering project. I can't think of any major project I've seen where at some point, people haven't taken a pause for a breather saying "Oh my god -- what have we gotten ourselves into". On the other hand, I think referring to it as "madness" dismisses years of hard work by a great many competent and dedicated developers. A year ago, M:N threading was extremely far from productionability -- today, it's on the cusp of being there, with higher performance and increasingly high reliability. It's almost ready for 5-STABLE. There's substantial on-going work on SMP, with a huge investment of time and energy into the network stack, VM system, VFS, process support, scheduling, etc. These are areas where the primary feedback today is going to be "stability and performance", and believe me, we're listening. All the FreeBSD developers I correspond with regularly run FreeBSD 5 on their desktops, on their servers, in their appliances, etc, to make sure we keep shaking out problems. Many companies have production products based on 5.x, and their feedback (and contributions) have been valuable. We've also invested substantial efforts in areas like compiler toolchains, standards compliance, not to mention new features. 5.x is, at long last, starting to land; it will take about one more minor version number to get there, we believe, but it is in dramatically better shape than it was a year or two ago. As I said above: writing operating systems isn't a small task. Companies invest tens (hundreds) of millions of dollars writing and maintaining operating systems, and (net across developers, if you actually bill for the volunteer hours), you're probably talking about the same. I think it's disingenous to dismiss the level of work put into FreeBSD 5.x -- this stuff is hard, folks! > All they had to do was ask a few sysadmins and end users what they > thought. All of this could have been avoided nearly 2 years ago. FreeBSD consumers asked for high performance threading, better SMP support, features like NFSv4, the ability to run without fsck, better security, NSS, and better C++ support. FreeBSD 5.x provides many (all?) of those. The biggest problem with FreeBSD 5.x was biting off a lot, not biting off enough. We looked at the large set of desirable tasks, and to some extent gotten bitten by the change in economy. It's easy to look back in retrospect and say "well, maybe a bit more investment here, and a bit less there", but it's a lot harder to make the changes after hindsight kicks in. The FreeBSD Project has changed the way we've developed as a result of lessons learned: we aren't introducing major new features at this point, with almost all major development in the "honing" department, currently. And that's chafing too: many FreeBSD developers like working on FreeBSD as an opportunity to create Big New Things, and want to keep doing that at a time where we're putting the breaks on Big New Things to produce a productionable result. But I guess that acts as motivation to get the current set of tasks in the air landed well :-). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:52:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CD016A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096BF43D3F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk) Received: from scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.166] helo=localhost) by tx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AdyBu-0003bO-Gm for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:52:42 +0000 Received: from rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.165]) by localhost (scan1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.166]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 13750-03 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:52:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.161.253]) by rx1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AdyBu-0003bL-3N for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:52:42 +0000 Received: (qmail 11406 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jan 2004 20:52:42 -0000 Received: from colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk by gateway by uid 71 with qmail-scanner-1.16 (sweep: 2.14/3.71. spamassassin: 2.53. Clear:. Processed in 1.536642 secs); 06 Jan 2004 20:52:42 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: colin.percival@wadham.ox.ac.uk via gateway X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.16 (Clear:. Processed in 1.536642 secs) Received: from dhcp1131.wadham.ox.ac.uk (HELO piii600.wadham.ox.ac.uk) (163.1.161.131) by gateway.wadham.ox.ac.uk with SMTP; 6 Jan 2004 20:52:40 -0000 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> X-Sender: cperciva@imap.sfu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:52:37 +0000 To: Mark Linimon From: Colin Percival In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:52:50 -0000 At 20:31 06/01/2004, Mark Linimon wrote: >There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have >patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, >not smaller. Speaking of which... if there's one thing which could be done to improve committer / non-committer relations, it would be to *do* something with all those PRs. The ports team is pretty good -- my maintainer updates have always been committed fairly quickly -- but I've never had a src patch committed without badgering committer(s) about my PRs. Don't misunderstand me; I think the project is heading in the right direction, and committers are doing a great job. But I think the contributions of non-committers could make FreeBSD even better, and those contributions are being largely lost or ignored. Colin Percival From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:44:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0475A16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (reverse-213-146-113-119.dialin.kamp-dsl.de [213.146.113.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234D743D41 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicolas@dauerreden.de) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (nicolas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06LiLR7019985; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:44:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas@pc5.i.0x5.de) Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i06LiLLi019984; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:44:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:44:21 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Message-ID: <20040106214421.GA19845@pc5.i.0x5.de> Mail-Followup-To: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" , Adil Katchi References: <20040106181141.GA5995@saboteur.dek.spc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040106181141.GA5995@saboteur.dek.spc.org> X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-SECURITY: Never trust a running system User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: Adil Katchi Subject: Re: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:44:28 -0000 * Bruce M Simpson [2004-01-06 18:11 +0000]: > On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: > > I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user > > that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities > > by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch > > between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and > > groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA > > (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups > > and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). > > newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves > supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could > be added. But you shouldn't forget, you can deny access to a specific group now. This won't work any longer, when users can leave groups at will. Nicolas From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:50:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D9016A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63C843D45; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06LoKET056918; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:50:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:50:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040106.145016.110976071.imp@bsdimp.com> To: paul@iconoplex.co.uk From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:50:23 -0000 In message: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Paul Robinson writes: : Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out his changes : and then lost his commit bit. This was because there was an "imminent : commit" due from somebody working on SMP, which still isn't finished : really. You mischaracterize the situation badly. Dillon lost his commit bit because he didn't play well with others. The deeper technical issues aren't as cut and dried as you make them sound. Dillon's contributions, while interesting in their own right, wouldn't have completed SMP. And the specific point of contention has been finished now for at least 6 months. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 13:59:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91F816A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB6243D45; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 0990B530A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:59:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 0CFE15308; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:59:02 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E527B33C9A; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:59:01 +0100 (CET) To: Rahul Siddharthan References: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:59:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> (Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who's the troll? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 21:59:15 -0000 Rahul Siddharthan writes: > [is Bill Huey the troll?] Does anybody seriously believe this? AFAIK, this came up in a heated discussion on IRC, where someone accused him of being the troll and he replied with a sarcastic affirmative. Some people who had previously been witnesses to or victims of his abusive behaviour on the mailing lists were only to happy to take this at face value as it provided them with an excellent excuse to have him banned from the lists. For my part, while I don't particularly like Bill Huey, I have no reason to believe that he is the troll, and a couple of good reasons to believe that he isn't: Bill has never been afraid to post inflammatory material under his own name; there are good reasons to believe the troll's claim that he is a committer, while Bill is not; and the troll appeared long before the Java funding argument through which Bill alienated himself from the community. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:04:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4027716A4D1 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.isg.siue.edu (mail.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7982743D39 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:04:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wgrim@cougar.isg.siue.edu) Received: from WEBSHIELD1.isg.siue.edu (webshield1.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.149])id QAA18019 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:04:31 -0600 (CST) Received: From cougar ([146.163.5.29]) by WEBSHIELD1.isg.siue.edu (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a); id 1073426670839; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:04:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:04:30 -0600 (CST) From: William Michael Grim To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:04:41 -0000 I just have one comment... who gives a shit. Let this useless thread die. William Michael Grim Student, Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville Unix Network Administrator, SIUE, Computer Science dept. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:25:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF5B16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (reverse-213-146-113-119.dialin.kamp-dsl.de [213.146.113.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F6F43D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicolas@dauerreden.de) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (nicolas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06MPmR7023624; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:25:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas@pc5.i.0x5.de) Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i06MPmYn023623; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:25:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:25:48 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: Adil Katchi Message-ID: <20040106222548.GA22917@pc5.i.0x5.de> Mail-Followup-To: Adil Katchi , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-SECURITY: Never trust a running system User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:25:53 -0000 * Adil Katchi [2004-01-06 17:01 -0500]: > I don't follow, what do you mean? A file with mode rw----r-- owned by root:group1 could be read by anyone who is not in group1. Nicolas Confusing quote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nicolas Rachinsky [mailto:list@rachinsky.de] > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:44 PM > To: 'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org' > Cc: Adil Katchi > Subject: Re: switching between groups > > > * Bruce M Simpson [2004-01-06 18:11 +0000]: > > On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: > > > I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a > user > > > that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own > capabilities > > > by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to > switch > > > between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB > and > > > groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to > groupA > > > (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these > groups > > > and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). > > > > newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves > > supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could > > be added. > > But you shouldn't forget, you can deny access to a specific group now. > This won't work any longer, when users can leave groups at will. > > Nicolas > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 15:10:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749AC16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from postman.ripe.net (postman.ripe.net [193.0.0.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0109E43D49; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:10:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ms@dell-laptop.6bone.nl) Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 8) id B5C844E149; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:10:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from birch.ripe.net (birch.ripe.net [193.0.1.96]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F2A4E05C; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:10:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from dell-laptop.6bone.nl (cow.ripe.net [193.0.1.239]) by birch.ripe.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with SMTP id i06NA5MF032214; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:10:08 +0100 Received: (nullmailer pid 1288 invoked by uid 1001); Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:59:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:59:43 +0100 From: Mark Santcroos To: Nate Lawson Message-ID: <20040106155943.GA924@laptop.6bone.nl> References: <200401022034.i02KYt7E002661@gw.catspoiler.org> <20040102151458.P10254@root.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040102151458.P10254@root.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Handles: MS6-6BONE, MS18417-RIPE X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.438179 X-RIPE-Signature: 4b307d020915ed0740d7621e0ab2a297 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: jhb@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Power Patches X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:10:14 -0000 On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 06:47:13PM -0800, Nate Lawson wrote: > I get a panic on my T23 due to the ATA driver not being detected so no > rootvp. Same here on a Dell Latitude C640. Mark From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 15:28:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8855516A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47F743D39; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ae0cf-0009cK-Kd; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:25 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:39 -0000 Brad Knowles wrote: > Define "us". You sure as hell aren't speaking for me. Accepted. It came from paul@iconoplex.co.uk and therefore can only represent my own opinion. But I know a lot of people who are looking at deploying 5- who aren't just pissed off - they're *scared*. I don't think many of the developers understand this. To us (yes, I'm not speaking for Brad Knowles), FreeBSD is not a project we spend our spare time on and love and adore. Well, it is, but it's also a lot more. It defines our careers. We roll out something that isn't "quite right", our jobs are finished. Right now, if somebody asks me what our roll-out strategy is for the next 18 months, I have to respond "don't know", whereas the Linux guys are just laughing... don't even start me on what the Windows guys are doing to my career right now.... OK, so it has got personal... I accept it is not the FreeBSD development team's job to look after my career, and to date I've looked after that by myself OK, but all I'm asking is you try and at least understand where some people are coming from on this. If 5.3, when it arrives, is genuinely production ready, trust me, the drinks are on me - I will do my absolute best to get to the next BSDcon and get everybody drunk on an expense account. If it isn't, well, I'll just have to whisper "I told you so" quietly somewhere. > If you have a set of skills that you think could be useful, please > contact Mark or one of the other members of -core to find out how you > might be able to contribute to the project. Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably deserve the "Fuck off. Go away." I'l deal with that seperately. :-) > I have the greatest respect for Matt, but he has been a serious > problem for the project for a long time. His technical disagreements > with other members of the project are just one relatively minor aspect > of those problems. His personality has been a much bigger issue. OK, I've never run into that. Over on the DragonFly stuff, he seems pleasant enough and his ideas are innovative, strong, if sometimes... *cough*... eccentric (e.g. replacing sysinstall with an Apache server and a load of PHP...), but I'll accept I haven't seen that, and I know others have had their problems there. I did see the fall-out on these lists with the argument that caused it all to kick off about a year ago though, and I don't think others on the project dealt with him (in public at least) fairly. Again, just my opinion, I wasn't involved, don't know what happened in private. > If you want to feel like this is your project, then you need to > find a way to take ownership of some part. See above. Ooooh, no. That isn't what I want at all. I just want end-users to feel they have a voice. That's all. Maybe they do, and I don't see it. Maybe they don't *and that's for the good for the project* but in my opinion, it just seems odd. > Please let us know how it turns out. Actually, no, I suspect 4.9 will keep me going for at least another 18 months, by which point hopefully 5- stable will be back where everybody wants it. In fairness, tonight, I was sat at a BSD User Group meeting in front of my laptop with a fresh copy of 5- and I (for one reason or another) was digging around and found a copy of the 5- roadmap article in /usr/share/doc which I hadn't read in a long time. I honestly wish I'd read that before posting my last mail to this list. An apology of sorts is due, and you may have it. Sorry. And yes, I was having a bad day, and my tone was rotten to those of you who put so much time into FreeBSD, and all I ask in future is that you realise that some points about bitrot, bloat, bad performance and a lack of *feeling* the end user gets heard is enough to cause real problems for a lot of people. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 17:08:07 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C3F16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (CPE00062566c7bb-CM000039c69a66.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.192.222.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA55C43D45 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:08:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from hermes (hermes.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.18]) by gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i0718L8P020388; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:08:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Message-ID: <00bd01c3d4ba$45367bf0$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> From: "Matt Emmerton" To: "Mark Linimon" , "Colin Percival" References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:04:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:08:07 -0000 > At 20:31 06/01/2004, Mark Linimon wrote: > >There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have > >patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, > >not smaller. > > Speaking of which... if there's one thing which could be done > to improve committer / non-committer relations, it would be to > *do* something with all those PRs. > The ports team is pretty good -- my maintainer updates have > always been committed fairly quickly -- but I've never had a > src patch committed without badgering committer(s) about my PRs. > > Don't misunderstand me; I think the project is heading in the > right direction, and committers are doing a great job. But I > think the contributions of non-committers could make FreeBSD > even better, and those contributions are being largely lost or > ignored. Exactly. I've filed PRs that have languished for months, and then after picking some random person from -current or -stable, the patches in the PR get committed within a week. I'd imagine that there's a lot of PRs that get dropped because they sit for 6+ months and then the submitter can't be found or cannot reproduce the situation. I think the problem is that too many commiters are focused on their own corner of the project, and there's nobody left to handle all the "general" sort of PRs. -- Matt Emmerton From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 18:47:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0448D16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0920D43D49; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:47:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avleen@pear.silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Ae3jL-000D4O-U0; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:47:35 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:47:35 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Brett Glass Message-ID: <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Sender: Avleen Vig cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 02:47:38 -0000 On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 01:52:50PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area > of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance > issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, > since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many > people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their "sandbox." So, > some of the criticism is actually valid. Advocacy is NOT a race or a popularity contest. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 21:36:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A718F16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B869A43D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:36:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i075ZJRp068947; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:05:20 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i075ZGaW090254; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:05:17 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: ticso@cicely.de, Bernd Walter , Jay Cornwall Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:05:15 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <20040106081714.GH39786@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20040106081714.GH39786@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401071605.15740.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -4.7 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:36:10 -0000 On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:47, Bernd Walter wrote: > > When setting a USB device to configuration number USB_UNCONFIG_NO (i.e. > > 0), the device goes into an unconfigured state with an invalid > > dev->cdesc. How does one then leave this unconfigured state and > > reconfigure the device to accept configuration changes? (all > > USB_SET_CONFIG changes are currently refused after going into > > configuration 0 - I'm not sure if this is the desired behaviour or a bug) > > I have to read the docs first bevor making a qualified comment about > this. I'm not 100% sure if this applies, but.. There are certainly situations where you want to reenumerate the USB devices, for example there are a number of devices which have no real firmware - they expect to be programmed by the PC then reset and reenumerated after being plugged in. I have such a device (M-Audio Mobile Pre USB) and I have modified USB audio code which works except that you need to manually reset the device without removing power (which is done by partially removing and then reinserting the USB connector). -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 22:06:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFDF16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84D543D1D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i0765lN1096198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:05:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0765e4H001895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:05:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0765eBE046296; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:05:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0765dTn046295; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:05:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:05:38 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: "Daniel O'Connor" Message-ID: <20040107060538.GE45569@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <20040106081714.GH39786@cicely12.cicely.de> <200401071605.15740.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401071605.15740.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de cc: Jay Cornwall Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:06:02 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 04:05:15PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:47, Bernd Walter wrote: > > > When setting a USB device to configuration number USB_UNCONFIG_NO (i.e. > > > 0), the device goes into an unconfigured state with an invalid > > > dev->cdesc. How does one then leave this unconfigured state and > > > reconfigure the device to accept configuration changes? (all > > > USB_SET_CONFIG changes are currently refused after going into > > > configuration 0 - I'm not sure if this is the desired behaviour or a bug) > > > > I have to read the docs first bevor making a qualified comment about > > this. > > I'm not 100% sure if this applies, but.. > There are certainly situations where you want to reenumerate the USB devices, > for example there are a number of devices which have no real firmware - they > expect to be programmed by the PC then reset and reenumerated after being > plugged in. Different story. > I have such a device (M-Audio Mobile Pre USB) and I have modified USB audio > code which works except that you need to manually reset the device without > removing power (which is done by partially removing and then reinserting the > USB connector). Bad device - it would have been so easy add an single transitor to do this automaticaly. Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO can't help you here. What you need to do is toggling the hub port if the device is to stupid to detach/reattach on his own. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 22:15:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6E216A4F6 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EBF43D39 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:14:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i076EoRp097222; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:44:51 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i076EmaW090660; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:44:49 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: ticso@cicely.de, Bernd Walter Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:44:46 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071605.15740.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107060538.GE45569@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20040107060538.GE45569@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401071644.47090.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -4.4 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_08_13,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de cc: Jay Cornwall Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:15:02 -0000 On Wednesday 07 January 2004 16:35, Bernd Walter wrote: > > There are certainly situations where you want to reenumerate the USB > > devices, for example there are a number of devices which have no real > > firmware - they expect to be programmed by the PC then reset and > > reenumerated after being plugged in. > > Different story. Ahh well, I was hopeful :) > > I have such a device (M-Audio Mobile Pre USB) and I have modified USB > > audio code which works except that you need to manually reset the device > > without removing power (which is done by partially removing and then > > reinserting the USB connector). > > Bad device - it would have been so easy add an single transitor to do > this automaticaly. > Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO can't help you here. > What you need to do is toggling the hub port if the device is to > stupid to detach/reattach on his own. I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU which covers it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 22:38:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B350A16A4D0 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD8343D2D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i076cYN1096600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:38:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i076cR4H002063 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:38:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i076cQBE046385; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:38:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i076cQDu046384; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:38:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:38:25 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: "Daniel O'Connor" Message-ID: <20040107063824.GF45569@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071605.15740.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107060538.GE45569@cicely12.cicely.de> <200401071644.47090.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401071644.47090.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de cc: Jay Cornwall Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:38:43 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 04:44:46PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Wednesday 07 January 2004 16:35, Bernd Walter wrote: > > Bad device - it would have been so easy add an single transitor to do > > this automaticaly. > > Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO can't help you here. > > What you need to do is toggling the hub port if the device is to > > stupid to detach/reattach on his own. > > I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU which covers > it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. Sparing a transistor to offload the work to the host were its also way more complex to do is dump. If this is part of the Spec, then the spec is dump too. usbd_reset_port should do from the USB point of view, but this doesn't trigger Free BSD to do a reconfiguration of the device, which is required after reset. Maybe the following will do instead: usbd_clear_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) delay(USB_PORT_POWERUP_DELAY); usbd_set_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) dev and port is that from the hub. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 23:04:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DAE16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F2443D41 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i07748Rp037228; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:34:09 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i07746aW091076; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:34:06 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: ticso@cicely.de, Bernd Walter Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:34:05 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071644.47090.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107063824.GF45569@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20040107063824.GF45569@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401071734.05764.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -5 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de cc: Jay Cornwall Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:04:26 -0000 On Wednesday 07 January 2004 17:08, Bernd Walter wrote: > > I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU which > > covers it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. > > Sparing a transistor to offload the work to the host were its also > way more complex to do is dump. > If this is part of the Spec, then the spec is dump too. Err yes, this IS USB we're talking about here :) > usbd_reset_port should do from the USB point of view, but this doesn't > trigger Free BSD to do a reconfiguration of the device, which is > required after reset. > > Maybe the following will do instead: > usbd_clear_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > delay(USB_PORT_POWERUP_DELAY); > usbd_set_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > dev and port is that from the hub. Except that would remove power to the port I think.. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 00:07:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEF216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DB643D2F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i0787ZN1097658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:07:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0787R4H002519 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:07:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0787QBE046697; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:07:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0787MiN046696; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:07:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:07:21 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: "Daniel O'Connor" Message-ID: <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071644.47090.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107063824.GF45569@cicely12.cicely.de> <200401071734.05764.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401071734.05764.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de cc: Jay Cornwall Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:07:48 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 05:34:05PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Wednesday 07 January 2004 17:08, Bernd Walter wrote: > > > I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU which > > > covers it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. > > > > Sparing a transistor to offload the work to the host were its also > > way more complex to do is dump. > > If this is part of the Spec, then the spec is dump too. > > Err yes, this IS USB we're talking about here :) Reead your spec - it's not part of USB itself. umass, ulpt, etc are extensions. It is even that a mass storage device doesn't have to honour umass specification to get the USB compliance logo :( > > usbd_reset_port should do from the USB point of view, but this doesn't > > trigger Free BSD to do a reconfiguration of the device, which is > > required after reset. > > > > Maybe the following will do instead: > > usbd_clear_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > > delay(USB_PORT_POWERUP_DELAY); > > usbd_set_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > > dev and port is that from the hub. > > Except that would remove power to the port I think.. AFAIK power is independend, but I'm not 100% shure. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 02:03:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1442216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vitsch.net (b74143.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.74.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8814A43D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Received: from FreeBSD.Danovitsch.LAN (b83007.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.83.7]) by Vitsch.net (8.12.3p2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i07A38Xe089362; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:03:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN]" To: ticso@cicely.de Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:04:37 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071734.05764.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200401071104.37461.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> cc: Bernd Walter cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:03:49 -0000 On Wednesday 07 January 2004 09:07, Bernd Walter wrote: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 05:34:05PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On Wednesday 07 January 2004 17:08, Bernd Walter wrote: > > > > I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU > > > > which covers it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. > > > > > > Sparing a transistor to offload the work to the host were its also > > > way more complex to do is dump. > > > If this is part of the Spec, then the spec is dump too. > > Err yes, this IS USB we're talking about here :) > Reead your spec - it's not part of USB itself. As long as there are a lot of usefull devices that use the DFU spec, to m= e it=20 seems no more than logicle to implement it in FreeBSD, no matter how dumb= the=20 system may sound :) > > > usbd_reset_port should do from the USB point of view, but this does= n't > > > trigger Free BSD to do a reconfiguration of the device, which is > > > required after reset. > > > Maybe the following will do instead: > > > usbd_clear_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > > > delay(USB_PORT_POWERUP_DELAY); > > > usbd_set_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > > > dev and port is that from the hub. > > Except that would remove power to the port I think.. > AFAIK power is independend, but I'm not 100% shure. I have written a driver for Atmel USB WLAN adapters for FreeBSD recently = (and=20 still am). The device also needs it's firmware to be uploaded via the DFU= =20 interface. The first time the device is plugged in, an internal ROM mask = is=20 mapped into code-space of the processor which provides it with only a ver= y=20 basic "USB stack" that can do enumeration and DFU. Via DFU the host uploa= ds=20 the firmware into RAM. At the end of the upload the host asks the device = to=20 "manifest" the firmware. For the device this means having to switch the ROM image with the RAM ima= ge=20 which is impossible while running in the specific processor. Thus the=20 processor tells it's core to map RAM into code-space and resets itself. A= fter=20 that the device will apear again with address =3D 0. The host then needs to set the address, re-read the device descriptor (it= has=20 changes, the device now offers endpoints etc), attach a driver. Btw, a reset can be sent down to a usb device from within a driver with t= his=20 line of code : usb_port_status_t stat; usbd_reset_port(sc->atuwi_udev->myhub, sc->atuwi_udev->powersrc->portno, &stat); For my device driver I have made a small change to the USB Stack and I ha= ve=20 introduced the return code "USB_ATTACH_NEED_RESET" for drivers to tell th= e=20 USB Stack thee device needs to be re-enumerated. The stack then automatic= ally=20 re-assigns the device it's address, and re-probes for drivers. This way e= ven=20 two seperate drivers could be made : one with the firmware and one with t= he=20 real driver. Is anyone interrested in a patch maybe? btw2: I have submitted a couple of patches in 2003 (one of witch is almos= t a=20 year old at this moment), but none of the got comments / commited. Is any= one=20 really working on USB code development / debugging lately? I want to see = ALL=20 USB devices working with FreeBSD and am willing to devote my spare-time t= o=20 achieving this. grtz, Daan From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:06:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0C916A4DD for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.huji.ac.il (cs.huji.ac.il [132.65.16.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1873B43D39 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from danny@cs.huji.ac.il) Received: from pampa.cs.huji.ac.il ([132.65.80.32] ident=danny) by cs.huji.ac.il with esmtp id 1AeBVd-000FAR-3o; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:05:57 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:55:41 +0200 . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:05:57 +0200 From: Danny Braniss Message-Id: cc: Bernd Walter Subject: Re: rcng guru needed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:06:00 -0000 after all my confusions, my problem was solved once netif was made executable. danny > > while hunting down the problem that my diskless configuration is not > starting the loopback interface i came about the following: > > rcorder does not list network, but it does network_ipv6 > further checking reveals: > > in /etc/rc.d/dhclient: > # PROVIDE: dhclient > # REQUIRE: network netif mountcritlocal > # BEFORE: NETWORKING > and > in /etc/rc.d/NETWORKING: > # PROVIDE: NETWORKING NETWORK > # REQUIRE: network dhclient altqd netif routing network_ipv6 isdnd ppp-user > # REQUIRE: routed mrouted route6d mroute6d > > no amount of efford has succeeded in getting network on the rcorder list, i.e: > in /etc/rc.d/amd > # PROVIDE: amd > # REQUIRE: network rpcbind mountall nfsclient > # BEFORE: DAEMON > > does not have the requiered effect, so how can i get network to run? > (the logic says that it should not requiere network, since nfsclient does). > > danny > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:18:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3490F16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 418DA43D2D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:18:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i07BIiN1000223 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:18:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07BIa4H003538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:18:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07BIZBE047436; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:18:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i07BIZlq047435; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:18:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:18:35 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: Danny Braniss Message-ID: <20040107111834.GR45569@cicely12.cicely.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rcng guru needed X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:18:58 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 01:05:57PM +0200, Danny Braniss wrote: > after all my confusions, my problem was solved once netif was made > executable. It's always one of those inconspicuous details :) -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:42:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F3616A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CA543D5A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 340ED530A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id E50CB5308; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:32 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7E4FC33C9A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:32 +0100 (CET) To: Paul Robinson References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:42:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:28:25 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:42:49 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > If 5.3, when it arrives, is genuinely production ready, trust me, the > drinks are on me - I will do my absolute best to get to the next > BSDcon and get everybody drunk on an expense account. If it isn't, > well, I'll just have to whisper "I told you so" quietly somewhere. I am currently working for an ISP whose infrastructure is based 75% on FreeBSD 5.1. The remaining 25% are a nameserver running 4.7, a mail server and a backup server running 5.2, and a BGP router running a month-old -CURRENT. I am about to start in a new job at a company that builds a high- performance network security appliance based on FreeBSD. The version they travel around with to show off to potential customers runs on -STABLE; the development version runs on -CURRENT. I asked them what it was like to develop on -CURRENT compared to -STABLE. Their answer: "a relief". Now tell me again why you think FreeBSD 5 is a disaster, and why you think we're out of touch with our users and admins. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:50:41 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF8816A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3692143D48 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:50:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i07BoQRp067049; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:20:26 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.dons.net.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i07BoOaW093468; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:20:25 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: ticso@cicely.de, Bernd Walter Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:20:24 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071734.05764.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401072220.24580.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -5.3 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: Bernd Walter cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de cc: Jay Cornwall Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:50:41 -0000 On Wednesday 07 January 2004 18:37, Bernd Walter wrote: > > > If this is part of the Spec, then the spec is dump too. > > > > Err yes, this IS USB we're talking about here :) > > Reead your spec - it's not part of USB itself. > umass, ulpt, etc are extensions. > It is even that a mass storage device doesn't have to honour umass > specification to get the USB compliance logo :( I have a sharp axe you can split hairs with if you like. umass/ulpt/dfu/etc are all things that make USB useful, so support is good :) > > > Maybe the following will do instead: > > > usbd_clear_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > > > delay(USB_PORT_POWERUP_DELAY); > > > usbd_set_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) > > > dev and port is that from the hub. > > > > Except that would remove power to the port I think.. > > AFAIK power is independend, but I'm not 100% shure. I'll see how it goes :) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 03:55:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CD216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF88643D2D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 03:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i07Bt2p5023917; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:25:02 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.dons.net.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i07BsxaW093476; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:25:00 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN]" , ticso@cicely.de Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:24:59 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> <200401071104.37461.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> In-Reply-To: <200401071104.37461.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401072224.59350.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -5 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: Bernd Walter cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 11:55:23 -0000 On Wednesday 07 January 2004 20:34, Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN] wrote: > > Reead your spec - it's not part of USB itself. > > As long as there are a lot of usefull devices that use the DFU spec, to me > it seems no more than logicle to implement it in FreeBSD, no matter how > dumb the system may sound :) Yeah.. well there are plenty of dumb things about USB :) > > AFAIK power is independend, but I'm not 100% shure. > > I have written a driver for Atmel USB WLAN adapters for FreeBSD recently > (and still am). The device also needs it's firmware to be uploaded via the > DFU interface. The first time the device is plugged in, an internal ROM > mask is mapped into code-space of the processor which provides it with only > a very basic "USB stack" that can do enumeration and DFU. Via DFU the host > uploads the firmware into RAM. At the end of the upload the host asks the > device to "manifest" the firmware. > For the device this means having to switch the ROM image with the RAM image > which is impossible while running in the specific processor. Thus the > processor tells it's core to map RAM into code-space and resets itself. > After that the device will apear again with address = 0. > The host then needs to set the address, re-read the device descriptor (it > has changes, the device now offers endpoints etc), attach a driver. Interesting way of making it :) The device I have uses a Ti chip which has USB primitives and powers up with DFU only support, and then needs a reset to start executing the new code from RAM. > Btw, a reset can be sent down to a usb device from within a driver with > this line of code : > > usb_port_status_t stat; > > usbd_reset_port(sc->atuwi_udev->myhub, > sc->atuwi_udev->powersrc->portno, &stat); > > For my device driver I have made a small change to the USB Stack and I have > introduced the return code "USB_ATTACH_NEED_RESET" for drivers to tell the > USB Stack thee device needs to be re-enumerated. The stack then > automatically re-assigns the device it's address, and re-probes for > drivers. This way even two seperate drivers could be made : one with the > firmware and one with the real driver. > Is anyone interrested in a patch maybe? Ooh yes please :) > btw2: I have submitted a couple of patches in 2003 (one of witch is almost > a year old at this moment), but none of the got comments / commited. Is > anyone really working on USB code development / debugging lately? I want to > see ALL USB devices working with FreeBSD and am willing to devote my > spare-time to achieving this. I thought Josef Karthauser was doing some USB work, but I am not certain. I can test some stuff - I have a variety of USB 1 and 2 hardware (USB1 scanner, USB2 card reader, USB1 Pocket PC cradle *hiss* :), mouse, USB2 HD enclosure, USB1 printer and dongle..) I updated by laptop to 5.x recently so that should make this more relevant :) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 05:04:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186D616A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE1043D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AeDMW-000CRu-Pl; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:37 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:42 -0000 I wrote: > Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably deserve > the "Fuck off. Go away." I'l deal with that seperately. :-) A few things to say about this: 1. I was not quoting Mark verbatim here. He didn't tell me to go away in the same paragraph. :-) 2. It was a private e-mail, and it's tone/content should have stayed as such, and so I was wrong to allow leakage. 3. The specific context of my mail to which he was replying, that caused him to get upset with me was where I stated in public: "In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user." 4. In private I've already apologised for that particualr comment as I realise now it was very "Daily Mail" of me to make it (for those of you without access to the Daily Mail, congratualations), and it's only fair as it spilled out onto the public lists, that I apologise here too. Mark also apologised for swearing at me. Oh, and I should also add, in an attempt at public humiliation to make sure I behave better in future that in the e-mail where I replied to Mark privately, I finished with the following: "It wasn't meant to be taken as being personally offensive, but I am pissed off that people just said "Oh the start of this thread was just a troll, ignore it" when there were issues that did need to be raised and aired and discussed that the original post touched on (badly). Now I'm just pissed off that never happened in a constructive manner, and I'm part to blame." I think that is a fair summation, and perhaps a good point to let that particular branch of the thread die. And for those of you who normally shout "Submit a patch" - well, I'm thinking about it. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 07:24:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703BE16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [212.33.142.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC66A43D2F for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 07:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shamz@atreides.freenix.no) Received: from atreides.freenix.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.12.8p2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i06FOtAd096315 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:24:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from shamz@atreides.freenix.no) Received: (from shamz@localhost) by atreides.freenix.no (8.12.8p2/8.12.8/Submit) id i06FOoqK096314 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:24:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:24:50 +0100 From: Shaun Jurrens To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040106152450.GH27235@atreides.freenix.no> Mail-Followup-To: Shaun Jurrens , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.8-RELEASE-p3 X-Philosophy: If you can read this, you're too close. X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:24:59 -0000 fwiw, the original mail was mine, written almost a year ago. Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:15:27 +0100 From: Shaun Jurrens Subject: dillon@'s commit bit: I object To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG While I still stand by my original thoughts, I didn't reproduce this from any faked e-mail address. This is all in the archives with the ensuing rants. It is a pity that our troll doesn't have any original thoughts of his own... I had to laugh a bit when I saw this... not sure if I'm flattered or insulted. I'd apologize to Maxime, but it wasn't my doing... He's a big boy anyway, and I'm not a troll. -- Yours truly, Shaun D. Jurrens spam@shamz.net spam@freenix.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 08:06:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8A116A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sandvine.com (sandvine.com [199.243.201.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F254F43D46 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:06:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from AdilK@sandvine.com) Received: by mail.sandvine.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:06:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Adil Katchi To: "'hackers@freebsd.org'" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:06:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 Subject: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:06:26 -0000 I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). Any help would be appreciated. Adil From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 08:10:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8442C16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sandvine.com (sandvine.com [199.243.201.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2ACC43D48 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from AdilK@sandvine.com) Received: by mail.sandvine.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:10:20 -0500 Message-ID: From: Adil Katchi To: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:10:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 Subject: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:10:22 -0000 I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). Any help would be appreciated. Adil From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 11:33:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E7416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FDB43D3F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:33:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i06JWhxg072526; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:33:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:13:21 +0100 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 19:33:17 -0000 At 5:35 PM +0000 2004/01/06, Paul Robinson wrote: > The cleverness of the "troll" was: > > 1. It was written by somebody who at the least had read these lists > for at least the last two years Maybe. It would be easy enough to skim the archives. > 2. It aired the real frustrations of those of us without commit bits Define "us". You sure as hell aren't speaking for me. > 3. It was on the whole, apart from the personal attacks, reasonably > correct. Evidence, please. > And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers > cares about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. > Don't like the way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like > how such-and-such a util works? Submit a patch. Not at all true. Mark Murray (among others) has stressed the need for people with different talents to contribute to the project. We need more people who can help us do proper QA. We need more people who can help us write good documentation. We need people who have a lot of skills that are not necessarily related at all to writing code. If you have a set of skills that you think could be useful, please contact Mark or one of the other members of -core to find out how you might be able to contribute to the project. Otherwise, if you're not willing to try to put your money where your mouth is, then please shut up. > Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out > his changes and then lost his commit bit. This was because > there was an "imminent commit" due from somebody working on > SMP, which still isn't finished really. I have the greatest respect for Matt, but he has been a serious problem for the project for a long time. His technical disagreements with other members of the project are just one relatively minor aspect of those problems. His personality has been a much bigger issue. > In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and > many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're > just a user. Who cares about users? This is their project after > all. If you want to feel like this is your project, then you need to find a way to take ownership of some part. See above. > Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various > other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making > use of DragonFly. Please let us know how it turns out. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:00:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9E416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B39843D1F; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:00:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: from dyson.jdyson.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.9.3) with ESMTP id i06K0i7e012185; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:00:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.jdyson.com) Received: (from toor@localhost) by dyson.jdyson.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i06K0hSI012184; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:00:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> In-Reply-To: <200401060907.34459.wes@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Jan 6, 2004 09:07:34 am" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:00:43 -0500 (EST) From: jsd@jdyson.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Brett Glass cc: dyson@iquest.net cc: Munden Randall J Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: jsd@jdyson.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:00:57 -0000 Wes Peters said: [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > On Monday 05 January 2004 11:14 am, Brett Glass wrote: > > I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for > > FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying > > assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. > > In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System > > administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are > > just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the > > project. > > The current system of governance is open and inclusive of those who have > demonstrated the talent, ability, and willingness to be contributors to > FreeBSD. The current core team is made up of a mix of big-time coders > like Peter and Warner, and small-time coders like myself (now slightly > below middle of the pack on commits) and a variety of other skills. > ... > > Somebody whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the virtual memory system, > for instance, may be critical to the success of a kernel, but that > doesn't necessarily make them the best person to steer a complex product > that brings 10,000 applications along with it. > It is INTERESTING to comment on someone whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the VM system, because out of Greenman, me and even Matt Dillon, (and the extremely respected alc), I don't know of any people with a myopic VM viewpoint. An example of that might be Matts ability and succes dealing with the VERY IMPORTANT NFS issues, or perhaps my implementation of the vfs_bio merged cache, minimal-copy pipe code, kernel memory management improvements (which aren't really VM per se), early playing with the ATA driver, SIGNIFICANT filesystem work (e.g. the vastly improved LFS didnt' get installed because of softupdates making it redundant), careful rework of certain portions of low level code, and it is definitely ludicrous to claim that Greenman was VM myopic. The biggest problem that I currently see on the technical side has NOTHING to do with the individual competencies, but the SMP locking complexity issues that I had predicted would happen. By looking at the locking from the VFS, VM, IPC and hardware standpoints (I admittedly wasn't and STILL AM NOT competent on networking issues), it is very very clear that restructuring the system to support more coherent and orderly locking would make the system INFINITELY more maintainable. It might even be worthwhile to start a rearchitecting now, recognizing that there were important things learned during the current exercise. The VFS and VM systems have numerous interdependencies, due to the very desired specified coherency, desired modularity and natural control/data flow. EVEN THOUGH it is very possible to make superficial modifications to the traditional structure in order to support adequate SMP locking, the design will likely become unmaintainable for future improvements or restructuring, the structure will be susceptable to bit rot. The VFS, VM and scheduling mechanisms could have (with nominal effort) been upgraded to use more of a realtime kernel structure (while retaining the timesharing behavior when desirable.) Using tsleep or its derivatives for process blocking with control/data stack context being intermingled with sundry data structure (and subsystem) locks make for a design that will sustain a high priesthood for years. (A wonderful side-effect of breaking the tsleep/stack marriage, is that VFS layering can be much easier decoupled from the VM and VFS interaction and coherency issues.) This should also have positive consequences WRT network stack state... Perhaps a good first step would have been to progressively remove the dependency upon stack context during thread/process blocking. This has several interesting positive side effects... However, this definitely breaks from the sleep/wakeup paradigm. There are numerous ways to break the dependency on the stack context, and I am partial to using continuations along with a few other possible paradigms. I haven't looked into these issues for years, but there might be some schemes that are even more effective or architecturally 'clean.' All this said, I still think that FreeBSD is the best choice for a general purpose OS. It is good that the system still works smoothly under load (something that I tirelessly strived for), making sure that during heavy loading conditions that system latencies (while waiting on various internal resources) are minimized. FreeBSD is proof that system caching doesnt' have to be continually manually tuned for any normal configuration... John From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:08:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F13416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431F043D1D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i06K5RVj004380; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:27 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i06K5OYw004378; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFAF788.9020906@iconoplex.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Who's the troll? (was: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:08:50 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > All I'm suggesting (and no, I'm not the troll, but I'd thank him, > whoever he is), I would not thank the troll -- anyone with legitimate concerns can air them under their own names (like you did), otherwise they don't deserve to be taken seriously. That said, I have a bigger concern. Let me point you to this mail from a year ago on the "troll's identity": http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?29127.1044803212 where Poul-Henning Kamp claims (in rather abusive terms) that the troll was Bill Huey. In reply to doubts raised by me, http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?20030209181722.GA19704 Mark Murray replied that "he admitted to it": http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?200302091826.h19IQBaX035066 Now you can argue that PHK is a private individual who speaks only for himself. But Mark Murray is a core member and presumably takes responsibility for what he writes, so I saw no reason to disbelieve him back then, though it did not fit BillH's pattern at all. Recently however in private mail to me, BillH denied it totally and added that he has denied it in private mail to FreeBSD people too, but it refuses to die down. I don't have a position since I know nobody personally. But such unsupported public accusations against someone's character are a very troubling matter. So will Mark and PHK either supply the proof, or retract the claim? Why accuse BillH anyway? In fact, he had recently annoyed the powers that be. He had exploded in violent language on the lists, after what he saw as a slight to him over the FreeBSD Java project, to which he had contributed immensely -- check the archives. His grievance may have been legitimate, but I don't condone the language he used; but the point is that he did it all in his own name, whereas the troll is clearly embarrassed to reveal his identity. Anyway, to an outsider like me, it seems possible that someone decided to get even with BillH by accusing him in this way. I'm not saying that's the case, but you must admit that it's a fair conclusion to jump to, and make amends for it. Or else, any of us could be next, simply on the grounds that someone in the FreeBSD hierarchy doesn't like us. - Rahul (NOTE: I exchanged some private mail with Bill Huey, and checked with him that it's ok to mail the list, but this mail is from me, not from him.) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:32:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB6A16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.soaustin.net (mail.soaustin.net [207.200.4.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3E943D55; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from linimon@lonesome.com) Received: by mail.soaustin.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id DC23B146FB; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:31:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:31:58 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Linimon X-X-Sender: linimon@pancho To: paul@iconoplex.co.uk Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:32:00 -0000 > The only thing any of the committers cares about is what they think. > Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the way things are done? > Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util works? Submit a > patch. Please suggest an alternative, given that almost all the labor is volunteer labor. There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, not smaller. IMHO it's reasonable to prioritize concrete suggestions over wish-list items. What else should we be doing? > Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out > his changes This had more to do with personalities than technology. Other people have had patches rejected, backouts requested, and in some cases, backouts forced upon them. Many of those people are still with the project. In a cooperative anarchy, things are never going to be perfect; further, I think it's unfair to generalize this one situation to saying "this or that contribution doesn't count". This was the culminating incident of a long-standing clash between strong personalities. It's too bad that it worked out the way it did, but I think other than that it's not useful to make generalizations from this one controversy. > In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core > and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because > you're just a user. What you may be interpreting as resentment may actually just be frustration at being once again in the middle of being told "things are broken" without concrete suggestions about how it can be fixed. Please come up with some kind of definite proposal that you think would alleviate your, and others', concerns; and post it and let us discuss it. Keep in mind that as you do so it's a volunteer project, and you have to address the interests of the current volunteers too. Perhaps you can suggest a way to bring more volunteers in without losing any of the existing ones. I certainly don't have any answers to these kinds of questions; let me take a look at yours. mcl From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:44:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3B716A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (ol.freeshell.org [192.94.73.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F102743D41; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nunotex@sdf.lonestar.org) Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:nunotex@otaku.freeshell.org [192.94.73.2]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i06Ki93R029752; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:44:10 GMT Received: (from nunotex@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.12.10/8.12.8/Submit) id i06Ki9aC029302; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:44:09 GMT Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:44:09 +0000 From: Nuno Teixeira To: Maxime Henrion Message-ID: <20040106204409.GA21373@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG> References: <20040105183003.731F644AD5@server1.messagingengine.com> <20040106135258.GP2060@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040106135258.GP2060@elvis.mu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: NetBSD 1.6.1_STABLE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:44:17 -0000 Hi, Time to force use of gnupg or something like that to prevent this to happen. Just an opinion. Yours, Nuno Teixeira On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 02:52:58PM +0100, Maxime Henrion wrote: > Hi all, > > > Since several people actually thought this mail was written by me, I'm > replying here to tell it wasn't. This mail was sent by the same guy > who periodically impersonate one of the FreeBSD committers to rant about > the project. His mail doesn't reflect my thoughts at all. Please all > let this thread die. > > Thanks, > Maxime > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- Nuno Teixeira SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 12:57:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EAB16A4D0 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:57:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpzilla3.xs4all.nl (smtpzilla3.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E1743D45 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:57:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [213.84.32.253]) by smtpzilla3.xs4all.nl (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06KvRAT013437; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:57:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i06KvQKi086363; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:57:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id i06KvQH6086362; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:57:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:57:26 +0100 From: Wilko Bulte To: Colin Percival Message-ID: <20040106205726.GB86301@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040106204233.04436d28@imap.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-OS: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: Mark Linimon cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 20:57:32 -0000 On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 08:52:37PM +0000, Colin Percival wrote: > At 20:31 06/01/2004, Mark Linimon wrote: > >There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have > >patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, > >not smaller. > > Speaking of which... if there's one thing which could be done > to improve committer / non-committer relations, it would be to > *do* something with all those PRs. > The ports team is pretty good -- my maintainer updates have > always been committed fairly quickly -- but I've never had a > src patch committed without badgering committer(s) about my PRs. Hm, it is one of the weak spots for sure. Not much different from paid-for development work, most people I've ever met working in that area tried to avoid doing maintenance work aka bug fixing. 2nd to avoiding maintenance work is not writing documentation if at all possible :) Not an excuse, just an observation. W/ -- | / o / /_ _ |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:04:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E1416A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from postfix3-1.free.fr (postfix3-1.free.fr [213.228.0.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6509943D2D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@online.fr) Received: from imp1-a.free.fr (imp1-a.free.fr [213.228.0.79]) by postfix3-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B763C4241; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:04:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by imp1-a.free.fr (Postfix, from userid 33) id ECACB1B9A3; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:03:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by imp1-a.free.fr (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <1073426627.3ffb30c3d211b@imp1-a.free.fr> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:03:47 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?b?U234cmdyYXY=?= References: <20040106200524.GA4224@online.fr> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Who's the troll? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:04:14 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > [is Bill Huey the troll?] > > Does anybody seriously believe this? Mark Murray, a FreeBSD core team member, publicly said this on an archived and searchable mailing list. That's my problem with it. Nobody cares what random people may have said to one another on IRC, but when someone who can be regarded as a spokesman for the project puts it on record, it's significant. > For my part, while I don't particularly like Bill Huey, I have no > reason to believe that he is the troll, and a couple of good reasons > to believe that he isn't: And I agree totally with all your reasons for believing he isn't. Rahul From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 14:56:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675AF16A4CE for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from web60110.mail.yahoo.com (web60110.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 572E143D2D for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:56:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kserwick@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040106225617.65937.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.236.160.30] by web60110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 14:56:17 PST Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:56:17 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Serwick To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 Subject: reading raw data from a CD-R with damaged table of contents X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:56:20 -0000 Hi all, I added some files to a multisession CD-R with the burncd command. It appeared to work fine, but when I read the disk, the new files didn't show up. So I did the burncd fixate command - bad idea! Now nothing shows up! (burncd's no Nero Burning Rom! Live and learn... Is the GUI burning software usable and reliable?) I assume it just destroyed the table of contents. Any suggestions for how I can recover that data? I couldn't find software to read raw data from anything. Do you guys know of anything? I would have to write something myself would I? Do you know where I can find an ISO 9660 filesystem specification? This is possible, right? Thanks, Kevin __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 6 17:09:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3533D16A4CE; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807DF43D2D; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:09:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i0719Yxe090335; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:09:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 02:09:33 +0100 To: Paul Robinson From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:16:27 -0800 cc: Brad Knowles cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:09:42 -0000 At 11:28 PM +0000 2004/01/06, Paul Robinson wrote: > Accepted. It came from paul@iconoplex.co.uk and therefore can > only represent my own opinion. In the future, may I suggest that you make this sort of statement more clear at the beginning? It sounded to me like you were standing up as a self-appointed champion of the rest of the world. > But I know a lot of people who are looking at deploying 5- who > aren't just pissed off - they're *scared*. FreeBSD-5 was always going to be problematical. There have probably been more things changed for this major version than for any previous major version in history, maybe even for all previous major versions combined. They bit off a great big honking whackload with this version, and they knew it. That's why we're so far behind the original release timetable (one year? two years?). Any reasonable production-oriented plan would have been to stick with 4.x until such time as 5.x has been declared "STABLE", and then wait for another minor release or two after that. Timetables can (and do) slip, so you'd have to build that into the picture. > I don't think many of the > developers understand this. My personal opinion is that I believe many of them understand this better than you know. See above. > To us (yes, I'm not speaking for Brad Knowles), FreeBSD is not a > project we spend our spare time on and love and adore. Well, it is, > but it's also a lot more. It defines our careers. We roll out > something that isn't "quite right", our jobs are finished. I've been there. I was the only FreeBSD guy bringing in machines into the largest ISP in Belgium, where everyone else was a Linux fanatic. They learned to respect the machines I brought in and how rock-solid they were, and my co-workers have since taken over and rolled out even more FreeBSD servers since I left. I believe they have the largest USENET news servers in the country, and the machines are also some of the most robust in the facility. > Right now, if somebody asks me what our roll-out strategy is for > the next 18 months, I have to respond "don't know", whereas the > Linux guys are just laughing... don't even start me on what the > Windows guys are doing to my career right now.... See above. Roll out 4.x for now, wait for 5.x to stabilize. That should have been the plan since 5.x first became -CURRENT years ago. The Linux guys have a lot to deal with, too. Red Hat licensing is now looking nearly as expensive as Sun, Mandrake is bankrupt, SuSE is being bought by Novell (in preparation to kill it?), and who else is left? They've always had a schizophrenic situation, with the dichotomy between the kernel developers versus the distribution creators. Windows? Well, Longhorn just got pushed out yet another year -- wait until 2005 or 2006, at least. Nothing to worry about there. > OK, so it has got personal... I accept it is not the FreeBSD > development team's job to look after my career, and to date I've > looked after that by myself OK, but all I'm asking is you try and > at least understand where some people are coming from on this. I understand, and I believe that the vast majority of the FreeBSD developers understand. > Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably > deserve the "Fuck off. Go away." I'l deal with that seperately. :-) In my original draft of my response, I basically told you to STFU myself. I decided that discretion was the better part of valor, and toned down that remark. But I can certainly understand the frustration resulting from having seen your post. > OK, I've never run into that. Over on the DragonFly stuff, he seems > pleasant enough and his ideas are innovative, strong, if sometimes... > *cough*... eccentric (e.g. replacing sysinstall with an Apache server > and a load of PHP...), but I'll accept I haven't seen that, and I > know others have had their problems there. Well, since it's his project, I'm sure he feels a lot more secure. Perhaps he's taken some lessons from previous mistakes with the FreeBSD project, and he's working to avoid re-living them with DragonFly. > I did see the fall-out > on these lists with the argument that caused it all to kick off > about a year ago though, and I don't think others on the project > dealt with him (in public at least) fairly. Again, just my opinion, > I wasn't involved, don't know what happened in private. I don't think that we saw more than the slightest bit of what really happened. I will agree that I think this matter could have (and should have) been better handled with regards to the public aspects, but anyone who was watching the lists at the time should have noted that this was not a new type of problem, and there were multiple references to previous situations of a similar nature. > Ooooh, no. That isn't what I want at all. I just want end-users to > feel they have a voice. That's all. Maybe they do, and I don't see > it. Maybe they don't *and that's for the good for the project* but > in my opinion, it just seems odd. People of all sorts will get that voice, if they find a way to take some sort of ownership in the project. That could be development, QA, documentation, or something else. But if you don't want to join the party, then you can't reasonably complain when you are unable to vote when the primary rolls around. Moreover, you can't reasonably complain about the person who gets elected, if you didn't vote. > Actually, no, I suspect 4.9 will keep me going for at least another > 18 months, by which point hopefully 5- stable will be back where > everybody wants it. Which should have been your plan from Day One. > And yes, I was having a bad day, and my tone was rotten to those > of you who put so much time into FreeBSD, and all I ask in future > is that you realise that some points about bitrot, bloat, bad > performance and a lack of *feeling* the end user gets heard is > enough to cause real problems for a lot of people. FreeBSD is a very unique OS. Unlike virtually any other OS (except other *BSD variants), the user has the option of being more involved in the project and helping to determine its future. You don't get anything remotely like this with Windows -- you just get whatever dreckage and bletchery that Redmond chooses to foist upon you. You don't get anything like this with Linux -- you could get involved with a particular distribution, but that doesn't give you any potential for involvement with the kernel. You could get involved with the kernel, but that has little direct impact on the user environment. You don't really get anything like this anywhere else. It's entirely your option, but if you choose to not get involved in the project, then you really don't have any grounds to complain that it's not going the way you want. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 05:46:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240A216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from spider.deepcore.dk (cpe.atm2-0-53484.0x50a6c9a6.abnxx9.customer.tele.dk [80.166.201.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DF443D49 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sos@spider.deepcore.dk) Received: from spider.deepcore.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spider.deepcore.dk (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07DhMmd062913; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:43:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos@spider.deepcore.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by spider.deepcore.dk (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i07DhMPG062912; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:43:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200401071343.i07DhMPG062912@spider.deepcore.dk> In-Reply-To: <20040106225617.65937.qmail@web60110.mail.yahoo.com> To: Kevin Serwick Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:43:21 +0100 (CET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99f (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-mail-scanned: by DeepCore Virus & Spam killer v1.3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:32:23 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reading raw data from a CD-R with damaged table of contents X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:46:03 -0000 It seems Kevin Serwick wrote: > Hi all, > > I added some files to a multisession CD-R with the > burncd command. It appeared to work fine, but when I > read the disk, the new files didn't show up. So I did > the burncd fixate command - bad idea! Now nothing > shows up! (burncd's no Nero Burning Rom! Live and > learn... Is the GUI burning software usable and > reliable?) > > I assume it just destroyed the table of contents. Rather you add a new one that is empty or garbled. > Any suggestions for how I can recover that data? It might be posible to read the original session, I seem to remember that it can be set somehow, but default is to always read the last. However its been quite a few moons since I last looked in the color books. > I couldn't find software to read raw data from > anything. Do you guys know of anything? > I would have to write something myself would I? Possibly, it might be as simple as modifying the atapi-cd.c driver to be able to read a specific session, see above... > Do you know where I can find an ISO 9660 filesystem > specification? Uhm ETSI has some of them for free IIRC.. > This is possible, right? Probably, I always feel very much at risk when saying the opposite :) -Søren Yes I know it works under windows!! From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 06:30:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D649316A4D1; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4A343D5A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i07EUBmT040749; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:30:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)i07EUB2T040748; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:30:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])i07ETZMI068819; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:29:35 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Paul Robinson In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:04:37 GMT." <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:29:35 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 06:32:23 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:30:21 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > "In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many > with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user." > > 4. In private I've already apologised for that particualr comment as I > realise now it was very "Daily Mail" of me to make it (for those of you > without access to the Daily Mail, congratualations), and it's only fair > as it spilled out onto the public lists, that I apologise here too. Mark > also apologised for swearing at me. I consider hands to have been shaken over this. :-). > And for those of you who normally shout "Submit a patch" - well, I'm > thinking about it. :-) I've been thinking of your objection to the "submit a patch" reply, and I offer this as a proto-thought on how it can be applied to non-coders: As FreeBSD is a volunteer project, I suspect part of the problem is getting said volunteers to do things that they would otherwise not do. "Submit a patch" can be easily(?) extendted to cover a much wider area of volunteer-organised work than simply code. Under specifically _patches_, there are code, documentation and web page patches, but there is also a need for organizational skills. The PR database frequently gets blitzed by keen folks who get lots of PRs closed, follwed by burnout. We are doing rather well with our release-engineering team (Go Scott L!), and our currently active admin@ crowd are doing a great job, but we could still use skills, and these are not necessarily of the coding kind. SO - instead of "submit a patch" perhaps if we were to go "submit something tangible and useful"? This can be anything that will forward the progress of FreeBSD. It could be something lofty like paying the salary of a developer who will then work primarily on projects useful to yourself. It could be commissioned work for a particular project you would like to see done. It could be a financial or equipment donation. It could be a donation of your time in a way that would be useful (please help here by finding something that needs doing and offering to do it, rather than expecting us geeks to find it for you!). It could be _anything_ that forwards the aims of the project and that you can do, and it preferably needs to be something that can be done autonomously (or as autonomously as possible). You will not get paid, you may not get thanked, but you will have the satisfaction of actually getting something done, and if you like FreeBSD as much as I do, that is an end in itself! M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 06:57:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D8016A4D0 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DCA043D2F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (bicknell@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i07Evj2x075303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i07EviOb075302 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:57:44 -0500 From: Leo Bicknell To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: United Federation of Planets X-PGP-Key: http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:57:49 -0000 --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message written on Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 02:09:33AM +0100, Brad Knowles= wrote: > FreeBSD-5 was always going to be problematical. There have=20 > probably been more things changed for this major version than for any=20 > previous major version in history, maybe even for all previous major=20 > versions combined. They bit off a great big honking whackload with=20 > this version, and they knew it. That's why we're so far behind the=20 > original release timetable (one year? two years?). >=20 > Any reasonable production-oriented plan would have been to stick=20 > with 4.x until such time as 5.x has been declared "STABLE", and then=20 > wait for another minor release or two after that. Timetables can=20 > (and do) slip, so you'd have to build that into the picture. Speaking with a user hat on, I'll comment on what I believe is the crux of the 5.x issue. You are 100% right, in that all documentation, communication from FreeBSD developers and soforth has pointed to remain on 4.x for "production" machines until 5.x has a stable release, and that it will be a while. =46rom a practical point of view that has been rapidly breaking down over the last 6-12 months. People need features in 5.x. Various people have decided (for good reason, I'm not questioning the decisions) that a large number of features go into 5.x, and because of the difficulty in back porting don't go into 4.x. Indeed, the only reason I'm running -current now is I need support for an Atheros wireless card. The take away I see is that this was too big of a chunk. The next bite planned needs to be smaller. You can't delay one year or two years in a production environment. New hardware needs drivers in that time. New protocols become production deployed in that time. I am also a firm believer that having all the developers focused so much on meeting deadlines for all this new complexity leaves them out of time to deal with the PR's that have been piling up. For FreeBSD to appeal to the masses it must install on the latest and greatest Dell or Gateway or whatever, which means it must include drivers for today's cheaper-by-the-gross parts from China. Driver updates in particular need to be very regular, and in the active -STABLE release, which for now means back-ported to 4.x, even if that means a complete rewrite because of how different the kernels are. Otherwise people get forced to run 5.x for a few driver issues, and then complain like crazy about all the other stuff that's not ready for prime time. Mom said it best, small bites, chew with your mouth closed. --=20 Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//B5oNh6mMG5yMTYRAhc+AJ43xfQ8YoHwd82qfV1TdLc2IHWGqQCaAxBt pP9h3KcjpEv6aBQKt33xDFc= =Zms3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 07:50:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD3016A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1E343D31 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:50:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (bicknell@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i07Foj2x077926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i07FoiJl077925 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:50:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:50:44 -0500 From: Leo Bicknell To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107155044.GA76568@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> <3FFC2444.8090803@FreeBSDsystems.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFC2444.8090803@FreeBSDsystems.COM> Organization: United Federation of Planets X-PGP-Key: http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:50:47 -0000 --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message written on Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 10:22:44AM -0500, Lanny Baron = wrote: > Just what we are wondering. Where is all the FreeBSD community support=20 > for a Server company that fully supports FreeBSD? It certainly is not in= =20 > this letter. Disclaimer: Until this message I didn't know www.FreeBSDsystems.com existed, and I know nothing about them other than what the front page of their web server has on it. I believe you've missed the point completely. Building a new server farm is an important, but specialized niche. Sure I can buy hardware that is only 100% fully supported. I may have to pay a little more, but to some degree that's ok. The point is that the person trying FreeBSD at home (where Linux is a competitor), or wanting to put it on their desktop at work (where IT just gave them a PC with windows, and the boss will let them run FreeBSD, but won't buy yet another PC to do it) suffer. OS's like FreeBSD and Linux make their way into the enterprise from the ground up, running on the old leftover box in the corner. So, do I support companies like (but not specifically) www.freebsdsystems.com, sure. Does that mean the freebsd development team can forget about all the other hardware out there in massive quantities, heck no. --=20 Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//CrUNh6mMG5yMTYRAn3xAJ9dFwJ59taAZOeQC9h0+mdz/4TdCwCghkJx fKSb2sM2/Ay1+eTEvIpUfpk= =hoTW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 07:51:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC1F16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B04B43D39 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id i07FpOiw011429; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:51:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:51:24 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen X-Sender: eischen@pcnet5.pcnet.com To: Leo Bicknell In-Reply-To: <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:51:33 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Leo Bicknell wrote: > > From a practical point of view that has been rapidly breaking down > over the last 6-12 months. People need features in 5.x. Various > people have decided (for good reason, I'm not questioning the > decisions) that a large number of features go into 5.x, and because > of the difficulty in back porting don't go into 4.x. Indeed, the > only reason I'm running -current now is I need support for an Atheros > wireless card. > > The take away I see is that this was too big of a chunk. The next > bite planned needs to be smaller. You can't delay one year or two > years in a production environment. New hardware needs drivers in > that time. New protocols become production deployed in that time. > I am also a firm believer that having all the developers focused so > much on meeting deadlines for all this new complexity leaves them > out of time to deal with the PR's that have been piling up. My perspective as a developer is that there were a lot of things in FreeBSD that needed an overhaul. SMP for example. Sure, it's not perfect and probably still has a ways to go, but this touched a lot of things. I fully expected FreeBSD-5 to get worse before it got better, perhaps lose some folks to Linux because they couldn't wait for stable -5 features. Could it have been better managed? Sure, in a better world where we had more of our developers getting paid to do this (we're lucky that we still have a handful or two of them). > For FreeBSD to appeal to the masses it must install on the latest > and greatest Dell or Gateway or whatever, which means it must include > drivers for today's cheaper-by-the-gross parts from China. Driver > updates in particular need to be very regular, and in the active > -STABLE release, which for now means back-ported to 4.x, even if > that means a complete rewrite because of how different the kernels > are. Otherwise people get forced to run 5.x for a few driver issues, > and then complain like crazy about all the other stuff that's not > ready for prime time. > > Mom said it best, small bites, chew with your mouth closed. I understand this position, but I think this step was a necessary one for the future of the project. My $.02. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 09:52:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D93816A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sandvine.com (sandvine.com [199.243.201.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBAC443D1F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from AdilK@sandvine.com) Received: by mail.sandvine.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:52:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Adil Katchi To: 'Bruce M Simpson' Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:52:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" cc: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:52:55 -0000 Unfortunately, newgrp(1) would not work, because it calls setgroups, which for some weird reason, needs the caller to be a superuser. Isn't there a function that sets the groups (like setgroups) of the current process where you don't have to be a superuser? To maintain security, that function could just check that the groups being set by setgroups are a subset of the caller's set. Does a function like that already exist? If not, how come? Thanks, Adil -----Original Message----- From: Bruce M Simpson [mailto:bms@spc.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:12 PM To: Adil Katchi Cc: 'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org' Subject: Re: switching between groups On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user > that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities > by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch > between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and > groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA > (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups > and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could be added. Or just call setgroups() with a no-op group-list vector and then setgid()/ setegid() from within your application. BMS From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 10:09:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FC616A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.freebsdsystems.com (mx1.FreeBSDsystems.COM [216.138.197.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DB943D46 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lnb@FreeBSDsystems.COM) Received: (qmail 34395 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jan 2004 15:22:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO FreeBSDsystems.COM) (lnb@216.235.8.115) by 216.138.197.66 with SMTP; 7 Jan 2004 15:22:34 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFC2444.8090803@FreeBSDsystems.COM> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:22:44 -0500 From: Lanny Baron Organization: Freedom Technologies Corporation User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leo Bicknell References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> In-Reply-To: <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 18:09:28 -0000 Hi, Leo Bicknell wrote: [snip] > For FreeBSD to appeal to the masses it must install on the latest > and greatest Dell or Gateway or whatever, which means it must include > drivers for today's cheaper-by-the-gross parts from China. Driver > updates in particular need to be very regular, and in the active > -STABLE release, which for now means back-ported to 4.x, even if > that means a complete rewrite because of how different the kernels > are. Otherwise people get forced to run 5.x for a few driver issues, > and then complain like crazy about all the other stuff that's not > ready for prime time. > Just what we are wondering. Where is all the FreeBSD community support for a Server company that fully supports FreeBSD? It certainly is not in this letter. As for the parts from China part, we don't buy any 'cheaper by anything' components. We don't look for a way to sell 'cheap servers'. We soley build that which runs extremely well on our Servers with FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on it. When I read about people who buy Servers from the major players the large computer companies such as those listed above and who by the way, don't give a flying *#&@ about FreeBSD, I wonder why the principles here continue to be loyal to the FreeBSD community. > Mom said it best, small bites, chew with your mouth closed. > -- =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Lanny Baron Proud to be 100% FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSDsystems.COM Toll Free: 1.877.963.1900 =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:08:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E644316A4D0; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB1343D49; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CDF5C; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 775092FDA09; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Mark Murray Message-ID: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Murray , Paul Robinson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:08:47 -0000 # mark@grondar.org / 2004-01-07 14:29:35 +0000: > Paul Robinson writes: > > And for those of you who normally shout "Submit a patch" - well, I'm > > thinking about it. :-) > > I've been thinking of your objection to the "submit a patch" reply, > and I offer this as a proto-thought on how it can be applied to > non-coders: > > As FreeBSD is a volunteer project, I suspect part of the problem > is getting said volunteers to do things that they would otherwise > not do. "Submit a patch" can be easily(?) extendted to cover a much > wider area of volunteer-organised work than simply code. Under > specifically _patches_, there are code, documentation and web page > patches, but there is also a need for organizational skills. The > PR database frequently gets blitzed by keen folks who get lots of > PRs closed, follwed by burnout. We are doing rather well with our > release-engineering team (Go Scott L!), and our currently active > admin@ crowd are doing a great job, but we could still use skills, > and these are not necessarily of the coding kind. Help us (users, port maintainers and random porters w/o commit) help you (committers). There are two areas I can (and do in one of them) participate: ports and documentation. Activities in both areas result in patches, and those need a committer. PRs need more hands, more people who can commit stuff. Quite a few port maintainers could have commit, even limited to just parts of the ports tree (IOW just their ports). The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open for whopping 28 days. Limitations of CVS don't exactly help either. The fact that you need direct access to the repository to be able to copy a tree with history (repocopy) as opposed to this operation being part of the interface[1], which means being lucky enough to find a committer, and get them commit the stuff within the blink of an eye ports is open, further constrains people's ability to work on FreeBSD with some satisfaction. While minor stuff can be managed by keeping multiple working copies, thorough documentation (or just any, really) on setting up local cvs mirror and using $CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM is sorely missing; or did I get it right quite recently that this is discouraged because of software issues (ISTR it was jdp@ who said it)? Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the former) leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) [1] has core@ considered subversion (devel/subversion)? -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:20:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0029716A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1372D43D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:20:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07KJ8Ud010361; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i07KJ8qg010358; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Roman Neuhauser In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:20:42 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > [1] has core@ considered subversion (devel/subversion)? Everyone has their eyes wide open looking for a revision control alternative, but last time it was discussed in detail (a few months ago?) it seemed there still wasn't a viable alternative. On the src tree side, FreeBSD committers are making extensive use of a Perforce repository (which supports lightweight branching, etc, etc), but there's a strong desire to maintain the base system on a purely open source revision control system, and migrating your data is no lightweight proposition. Likewise, you really want to trust your data only to tried and true solutions, I think -- we want to build an OS, not a version control system, if at all possible :-). Subversion seems to be the current "favorite" to keep an eye on, but the public release seemed not to have realized the promise of the design (i.e., no three-way merges, etc). You can peruse the FreeBSD Perforce repository via the web using http://perforce.FreeBSD.org/ -- it contains a lot of personal and small project sandboxes that might be of interest. For example, we do all the primary TrustedBSD development in Perforce before merging it to the main CVS repository. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 12:34:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4CE16A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2D943D3F for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i07KXBUd010562; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:33:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i07KXBwJ010559; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:33:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:33:11 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Adil Katchi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: switching between groups X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:34:36 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Adil Katchi wrote: > Unfortunately, newgrp(1) would not work, because it calls setgroups, > which for some weird reason, needs the caller to be a superuser. Isn't > there a function that sets the groups (like setgroups) of the current > process where you don't have to be a superuser? To maintain security, > that function could just check that the groups being set by setgroups > are a subset of the caller's set. Does a function like that already > exist? If not, how come? Groups are sometimes used for negative access control rights: i.e., permissions are set on a file so that users who should not be able to read the file are in a group, and the group rights are less than the 'other' rights. If users can drop arbitrary groups, they can leave the group excluding the rights. This probleis more or less pronounced with ACLs, depending on who you speak to: using negative rights is often a workaround for not having ACLs, but with ACLs, you can add more than one group to a file, and don't have to be a member of the group to add it... It does strike me that newgrp(1) seems less than useful without the setuid bit... Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research > > Thanks, > > Adil > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce M Simpson [mailto:bms@spc.org] > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:12 PM > To: Adil Katchi > Cc: 'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org' > Subject: Re: switching between groups > > > On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: > > I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user > > that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own > capabilities > > by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to > switch > > between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and > > groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to > groupA > > (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these > groups > > and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). > > newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves > supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could > be added. > > Or just call setgroups() with a no-op group-list vector and then setgid()/ > setegid() from within your application. > > BMS > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 14:23:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7600216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.server.rpi.edu (smtp4.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34C843D53 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:23:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp4.server.rpi.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i07MNVMr014803; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:23:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:23:30 -0500 To: Paul Robinson From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 22:23:39 -0000 At 12:42 PM +0100 1/7/04, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >Paul Robinson writes: > > If 5.3, when it arrives, is genuinely production ready, trust > > me, the drinks are on me - I will do my absolute best to get > > to the next BSDcon and get everybody drunk on an expense > > account. If it isn't, well, I'll just have to whisper > > "I told you so" quietly somewhere. > >I am currently working for an ISP whose infrastructure is >based 75% on FreeBSD 5.1. ... > >I am about to start in a new job... I asked them what it >was like to develop on -CURRENT compared to -STABLE. Their >answer: "a relief". I would add that I've been running almost exclusively on 5.x for over a year now (except for one machine which I have not rebooted in over a year...). There have been some *very* painful transitions at various times, but once I get past the transitions the system has been quite stable. (fwiw, in my case, I am only running on desktop systems). So, once we stop making major API/ABI changes and the branch is truly stable (with a 6.x branch for new cutting-edge developments), I personally am quite confident that 5.x will be a stable, production-quality system. And there are a number of features in 5.x that I think are tremendous advantages -- especially for boxes in a production setting. My guess is you're going to have a large bar tab at the next BSDcon... Certainly I hope so! -- Garance Alistair Drosehn =3D gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 15:17:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DDB16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3DA43D45; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i07NHhtV065414; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i07NHaM9065411; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:17:36 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> To: jsd@jdyson.com References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Maxim Hermion cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Brett Glass cc: dyson@iquest.net cc: Munden Randall J Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:17:57 -0000 :It is INTERESTING to comment on someone whose viewpoint doesn't extend :beyond the VM system, because out of Greenman, me and even Matt Dillon, :(and the extremely respected alc), I don't know of any people :with a myopic VM viewpoint. An example of that might be Matts ability :and succes dealing with the VERY IMPORTANT NFS issues, or perhaps my implementation :of the vfs_bio merged cache, minimal-copy pipe code, kernel memory management :improvements (which aren't really VM per se), early playing with the ATA :driver, SIGNIFICANT filesystem work (e.g. the vastly improved LFS didnt' :get installed because of softupdates making it redundant), careful rework of :certain portions of low level code, and it is definitely ludicrous :to claim that Greenman was VM myopic. Currently in FreeBSD-5 there are far fewer people able to work on a wide range of subsystems due to the complexity of the SMP environment. That should be clearly obvious to everyone... I rarely see cross-disciplinary commits (though there are other reasons for that observation beyond the complexity of the SMP environment). Certainly I see far fewer such commits then occured in the 4.x days. Focus is good, but the complexity of the APIs are such that as some of the current developers move on to other things large swaths of code are going to start to become unattended through lack of understanding, and it could potentially swamp the relatively few interdisciplinary people left in the project. The SMP interactions that John mentions are not trivial... they would challenge *ME* and regardless of what people think about my social mores I think most people would agree that I am a pretty good programmer. I have no doubt that FreeBSD-5 can be stabilized with the current development crew, but the warning signs abound and if the SMP environmental interfaces are not simplified FreeBSD-5 will end up in serious trouble down the line. The idea (that some people have stated in later followups to this thread) that the APIs themselves will stabilize is a pipedream. The codebase may become reasonably stable, but there are a lot of things in there that people are going to want to rewrite in coming years, and rewriting by people other then the original authors is one of the reasons why we had so much trouble in the 2.x and 3.x days. Look at how little VFS has been touched in the intervening years despite the fact that it is obvious that it has needed a serious rewrite for the last decade. I can barely figure it out even now and I have spent hundreds of hours working on VFS. I mean, I don't think anyone can honestly say that the scheduler is 'done', or even close to done. Look at how long the original 42 scheduler was worked on after it was originally finished? Same goes for the VM system, VFS, the slab allocator, the mutex related code, the USB code (EHCI for example), and everything else. Simplifying maintainance should be of paramount concern to everyone, and the number one most complex issue in FreeBSD-5 right now are the SMP related APIs and non-deterministic scheduler side effects like preemptive cpu migration, indirect preemptive switching to non-interrupt threads due to priority borrowing, and non deterministic side effects from blocking in a mutex (because mutexes are used for many things now that spl's were used for before, this is a very serious issue). See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. -Matt From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 15:25:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7968416A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.server.rpi.edu (smtp3.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E84243D41 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp3.server.rpi.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i07NPTAI001538; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:25:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040107145744.GA74418@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:25:27 -0500 To: Leo Bicknell , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:25:32 -0000 At 9:57 AM -0500 1/7/04, Leo Bicknell wrote: >Speaking with a user hat on, I'll comment on what I believe >is the crux of the 5.x issue. >The take away I see is that this was too big of a chunk. >The next bite planned needs to be smaller. I agree with this observation, but then it's easy to see that in hindsight. We started on some ambitious targets when 5.x started, and at the time we believed we were going to have a lot more full- time development resources than we ended up with. That whole big problem with the "dot.com bubble bursting". I do think we need to tackle a somewhat smaller chunk of projects for 6.0, so it won't take so long to get it done. I also expect we have a much more realistic idea of what our resources are than we had in late 1999. >You can't delay one year or two years in a production >environment. Actually, in a production environment you're more than happy to delay a year or two. You don't want constant churn. You don't want new API's and ABI's every year. The problem for freebsd is that 4.0 was released in March of 2000, and that was advertised as a "stable" release. 5.0 was released in January of 2003 -- and was explicitly *not* a stable release. We could stand to have a major stable release every two years, or maybe even every three years, but this is going to be more like four years. That is too long. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 18:27:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2451116A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (skywalker.rogness.net [64.251.173.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9917F43D46; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 18:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by skywalker.rogness.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id i082TSPb015190; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:29:28 -0700 (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost)i082TS2d015186; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:29:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: skywalker.rogness.net: nick owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:29:28 -0700 (MST) From: Nick Rogness To: Mark Linimon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 02:27:51 -0000 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Mark Linimon wrote: > > > In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core > > and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because > > you're just a user. > > What you may be interpreting as resentment may actually just > be frustration at being once again in the middle of being > told "things are broken" without concrete suggestions about > how it can be fixed. Please come up with some kind of > definite proposal that you think would alleviate your, and > others', concerns; and post it and let us discuss it. Keep > in mind that as you do so it's a volunteer project, and you > have to address the interests of the current volunteers too. > Perhaps you can suggest a way to bring more volunteers in > without losing any of the existing ones. I certainly don't > have any answers to these kinds of questions; let me take > a look at yours. You asked for suggestions/proposals for discussion so I came up with a few: 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and what-not. You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the project as part of that money could go back into the Project. You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests) which someone like myself would email a request with the problem description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-) 2) Setup a mailling list for just new developer questions. - A mailling list where someone can ask a stupid programming question without being ridiculed would be nice. Some of us know how to code but are intimidated to ask as most times some a$$hole always responds with some crack. This happens often on -questions and puts a bad taste in my mouth. Of course, this would assume that only some very tolerant -hackers would want to subscribe to and help answering questions. This would/could bring in more development. 3) Simple but time consuming requests from developers - Isn't it possible to have developers pass off some of their simple tasks to others? Think of it like a "pet dog". Your dog may be able fetch your newspaper but he couldn't read it. Still fetching the newspaper takes time! The requests I see are usually Jr. kernel type requests. Everyone wants to contribute at the kernel level but that takes a lot of knowhow and experience working with fbsd's kernel. Let users get involved with simple (stupid) tasks which are time consuming. Now define "simple"... 4) More FreeBSD (Con) promotion - I see little news about FreeBSD anymore. Not sure what to do here. I can tell you that people need to be told what to do. If someone needs some help with promoting FreeBSD, the've gotta ask. - Where the hell is the FreeBSDCon website? Keep the current development talks at FreeBSDCon but add more user/admin type talks (not sure what it was last year cause I can't find the website). Promote it better...don't have the money? read #5 5) Other contributions - There have got to be things not related to development that can help the FreeBSD project out. A large user base that wants to contribute but can't code worth a hoot can contribute in other ways, e.g. FreeBSD Con promotion-flyers,website logos, news articles. I could go on for hours about trivial things I'm sure people would contribute. Just a couple of thoughts for bringing in new volunteers and keep the old ones happy. -- Nick Rogness - How many people here have telekenetic powers? Raise my hand. -Emo Philips From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 19:46:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBEA16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhub-c6.tc.umn.edu (mhub-c6.tc.umn.edu [160.94.128.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDC543D5C; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: from [24.107.70.120] by mhub-c6.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:45:36 -0600 From: Ryan Sommers To: Nick Rogness In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:45:25 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 03:46:06 -0000 On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:29, Nick Rogness wrote: > 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature > > - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a > developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for > would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. > Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great > understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and > what-not. > > You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR > to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or > maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. > > This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if > needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can > make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the > project as part of that money could go back into the Project. > > You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests) > which someone like myself would email a request with the problem > description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the > problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. > > The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a > "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to > some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong > areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. > ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-) > I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some official part of the project. I think this might discourage some from contributing in hopes to be paid for it. I think a better solution for companies looking for this would be to post to the jobs@ mailing list noting that it is a temp job. I don't think giving priority to paying entities is a path the project should tread down. If someone needs FreeBSD developer work they should look for someone to hire. Something like this might also jeopardize the project's "not for profit" status. I think the jobs@ mailing list would be a better start. (I'm going to be looking for a full time job in about 11 months and if I got one where I got to code/administer BSD I'd feel I was in Heaven.) :-) > > 2) Setup a mailling list for just new developer questions. This would be a great idea, however, it might be something the hackers@ list was originally intended for. Unfortunately I think no matter what list you create there will always be those feelings and people that will speak like that. People just have to remember that although it may sound as if someone is ridiculing them it might not be there intention. The Internet is a rather flat medium for communicating emotion. > > 3) Simple but time consuming requests from developers > > - Isn't it possible to have developers pass off some of > their simple tasks to others? Think of it like a "pet dog". > Your dog may be able fetch your newspaper but he couldn't read it. > Still fetching the newspaper takes time! > > The requests I see are usually Jr. kernel type requests. > Everyone wants to contribute at the kernel level but that takes > a lot of knowhow and experience working with fbsd's kernel. Let > users get involved with simple (stupid) tasks which are time > consuming. Now define "simple"... > Again, I think a JKH (Junior Kernel Hacker) list (like the one PHK had for awhile) would be a great addition. I'll even volunteer to maintain it if developers were willing to help me by providing these small "projects" for people to work on. As someone attempting to join the ranks of people in the "Submitted by:" log lines this is one of the hardest things for me to do is find something I can work on. I think this might be some duplication of the PR database; some PRs are things that could be accomplished without too much skill. I think the trouble though is wading through to find these specific issues. Perhaps such a list could contain cross-references to the PR db. -- Ryan Sommers ryans@gamersimpact.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 20:24:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F229F16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (CPE00062566c7bb-CM000039c69a66.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.192.222.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D335043D41; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:24:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from hermes (hermes.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.18]) by gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i084P88P026712; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:25:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Message-ID: <006601c3d59e$ec98ece0$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> From: "Matt Emmerton" To: "Ryan Sommers" , "Nick Rogness" References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:21:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 04:24:50 -0000 > > 3) Simple but time consuming requests from developers > > > > - Isn't it possible to have developers pass off some of > > their simple tasks to others? Think of it like a "pet dog". > > Your dog may be able fetch your newspaper but he couldn't read it. > > Still fetching the newspaper takes time! > > > > The requests I see are usually Jr. kernel type requests. > > Everyone wants to contribute at the kernel level but that takes > > a lot of knowhow and experience working with fbsd's kernel. Let > > users get involved with simple (stupid) tasks which are time > > consuming. Now define "simple"... > > Again, I think a JKH (Junior Kernel Hacker) list (like the one PHK had > for awhile) would be a great addition. I'll even volunteer to maintain > it if developers were willing to help me by providing these small > "projects" for people to work on. As someone attempting to join the > ranks of people in the "Submitted by:" log lines this is one of the > hardest things for me to do is find something I can work on. The only problem with a JKH list is that there need to be committers willing to review and commit PRs that are created from the tasks on the list. About a year ago I started working on one of PHK's tasks, opened up 4 PRs, and found absolutely nobody willing to review or commit them. After a month of pinging people and waiting for feedback (and getting absolutely none), I just stopped working on it. It's these kinds of impasses that prevent people who have the skills and time from actually contributing to the project. There really isn't any use opening PRs and creating patches if they're never going to get committed (or by the time someone decides to commit them, the patches need to be moved forward 3 or 4 releases.) -- Matt Emmerton From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 06:49:59 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B298A16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta3.xnet.ro (mta3.xnet.ro [217.10.192.251]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E539B43D48; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 06:49:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from clau@reversedhell.net) Received: from reversedhell.net (81-196-92-42.arad.cablelink.ro [81.196.92.42] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0)i07EnsO5006841; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:49:55 +0200 Message-ID: <3FFC1C32.8040401@reversedhell.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 16:48:18 +0200 From: Clau User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031208 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.3(snapshot 20030212) (mta3.xnet.ro) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:03:52 -0800 Subject: Adaptec 1210SA SATA RAID - need help X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:49:59 -0000 Hi, I have this problem with an Adaptec 1210SA S-ATA RAID controller... I want to install FreeBSD 5.1 but it doesn't work with the controller. 5.1 crashes in sysinstall, when probing for devices. I don't know exactly why, but this happens even if the controller is out of the computer. maybe because it doesn't find any hdd ? ok, I got then 5.2RC2 boot floppies, and this doesn't crash, but still it doesn't identify the raid controller, it see 2 hdd. I installed the base system on one of them, and unfortunatly I cannot boot it. Please help me with any suggestion. I don't really care about the hardware raid, I only wish that i could install and boot from one of the drives. Will JBOD mode help me in any way ? I am waiting for any suggestions... If I can't solve this problem, I will be forced to use linux, or I will leave another person taking care of the server, by installing windows :( Thank you very much. Claudiu Dragalina-Paraipan. e-mail: clau@reversedhell.net ------------------------------------------------------- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 21:59:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5B216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.alphaque.com (ns2.alphaque.com [202.75.47.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ED46443D1D for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:59:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dinesh@alphaque.com) Received: (qmail 61085 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2004 05:59:02 -0000 Received: from lucifer.net-gw.com (HELO prophet.alphaque.com) (202.75.47.153) by lucifer.net-gw.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 05:59:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.alphaque.com [127.0.0.1]) by prophet.alphaque.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i085wqjW001521 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:58:52 +0800 (MYT) (envelope-from dinesh@alphaque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:58:52 +0800 (MYT) From: Dinesh Nair To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108135838.X361-100000@prophet.alphaque.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: ADMtek USB To LAN Converter and HomePNA X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 05:59:14 -0000 hey, i have one of the above. it's a usb device which connects to a HomePNA network, with a 10/100Mbps ethernet port as well as a couple of RJ11s for the HomePNA connection. my problem is i am unable to utilize this device to connect to the HomePNA network. upon plugging it in, the console says: aue0: ADMtek USB To LAN Converter, rev 1.10/1.01, addr 2 aue0: Ethernet address: 00:08:54:d0:5d:2e miibus1: on aue0 pnaphy0: on miibus1 pnaphy0: HomePNA ifconfig aue0 response is: aue0: flags=8802 mtu 1500 ether 00:08:54:d0:5d:2e media: Ethernet homePNA (none) i run 'ifconfig aue0 10.1.105.26 netmask 0xffff0000 media homepna' and the device then gets to the following: aue0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 10.1.105.26 netmask 0xffff0000 broadcast 10.1.255.255 ether 00:08:54:d0:5d:2e media: Ethernet homePNA status: active however, i am unable to ping any ip address other than the interface's address. obviously, no firewalls (ipfw/ipchains/ipf) are being run and this is on FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE built as of a couple of weeks back. i've played around with disabling the ethernet PHY on the device with the following diff to /usr/src/sys/dev/usb/if_aue.c: --- CUT HERE --- --- if_aue.c.org Wed Jan 7 20:02:51 2004 +++ if_aue.c Wed Jan 7 21:04:06 2004 @@ -434,6 +434,28 @@ #endif } + /* + * The Am79C978 HomePNA PHY actually contains + * two transceivers: a 1Mbps HomePNA PHY and a + * 10Mbps full/half duplex ethernet PHY with + * NWAY autoneg. However, the HomePNA PHY is + * not recognized, but the 10/100Mbps PHY is + * though. This skips over the 10/100Mbps PHY + * and only activates the 1Mbps HomePNA PHY + * + * Modified by Dinesh Nair + * Wed Jan 7 20:36:34 MYT 2004 + * + */ + if (sc->aue_info->aue_vid == USB_VENDOR_ADMTEK && + sc->aue_info->aue_did == USB_PRODUCT_ADMTEK_PEGASUSII) { + if (phy == 1) + return(0); + } + /* + * End of modifications by Dinesh Nair + */ + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_PHY_ADDR, phy); csr_write_1(sc, AUE_PHY_CTL, reg|AUE_PHYCTL_READ); --- CUT HERE --- but to no avail. i've discovered that the ethernet PHY is phy==1, while the two RJ11 PHYs are 2 and 3. the ethernet PHY works fine and dandy, and i am able to connect it to my local switch fine. however, i need to use it for a HomePNA application, and thus need to HomePNA portion of this to work. any ideas from anyone who's tried something like this before with some measure of success ? any media types or mediaopts i should be passing to ifconfig ? this setup is used by a broadband provider in kuala lumpur, malaysia and to date this has been the one barrier which prevents freebsd users from utilizing their service. Regards, /\_/\ "All dogs go to heaven." dinesh@alphaque.com (0 0) http://www.alphaque.com/ +==========================----oOO--(_)--OOo----==========================+ | for a in past present future; do | | for b in clients employers associates relatives neighbours pets; do | | echo "The opinions here in no way reflect the opinions of my $a $b." | | done; done | +=========================================================================+ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 22:02:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A8716A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D6743D45 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i0862AN1014665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:02:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i086204H010888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:02:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i08620BE050977; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:02:00 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0861vt4050976; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:01:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:01:57 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: "Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN]" Message-ID: <20040108060156.GH47728@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071734.05764.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040107080720.GH45569@cicely12.cicely.de> <200401071104.37461.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401071104.37461.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: Bernd Walter cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org cc: ticso@cicely.de Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:02:29 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:04:37AM +0100, Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN] wrote: > For the device this means having to switch the ROM image with the RAM image > which is impossible while running in the specific processor. Thus the > processor tells it's core to map RAM into code-space and resets itself. After > that the device will apear again with address = 0. > The host then needs to set the address, re-read the device descriptor (it has > changes, the device now offers endpoints etc), attach a driver. > > Btw, a reset can be sent down to a usb device from within a driver with this > line of code : > > usb_port_status_t stat; > > usbd_reset_port(sc->atuwi_udev->myhub, > sc->atuwi_udev->powersrc->portno, &stat); Im mostly worried about having more than a single device with address 0. You can't do this as long as another device gets initialized. Therefor I thought disabling/enabling the port would be better, but I'm wrong as the result is be the same. > For my device driver I have made a small change to the USB Stack and I have > introduced the return code "USB_ATTACH_NEED_RESET" for drivers to tell the > USB Stack thee device needs to be re-enumerated. The stack then automatically > re-assigns the device it's address, and re-probes for drivers. This way even > two seperate drivers could be made : one with the firmware and one with the > real driver. > Is anyone interrested in a patch maybe? Sounds interesting. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:07:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1F016A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBE143D39; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46483356F2; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:07:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:07:58 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031211 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.4.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Brett Glass cc: dyson@iquest.net cc: Munden Randall J cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:07:10 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > interdisciplinary people left in the project. The SMP interactions > that John mentions are not trivial... they would challenge *ME* and > regardless of what people think about my social mores I think most > people would agree that I am a pretty good programmer. My thoughts exactly. Every time I have this kind of argument, be it on irc or in a mailing list, I get told that Sun needed X years to do the fine grained locks in Solaris and other similar crap. Solaris was possible because Sun could throw more engineers at the problem if needed. FreeBSD is not in such situation. How many people have intimate knowledge of the VM subsystem? How many people besides John Baldwin have ever touched the SMPng code? I don't think anybody has doubts about your programming-fu, btw :) > serious trouble down the line. The idea (that some people have stated > in later followups to this thread) that the APIs themselves will > stabilize is a pipedream. The codebase may become reasonably stable, Agreed. Like I've said, the main problem I see is complexity. It wouldn't matter as much if there were 5-10 people with deep knowledge of SMPng, but with 1 or 2 hackers working on it, the chance that everything will be ever fixed is quite small. > but there are a lot of things in there that people are going to want > to rewrite in coming years, and rewriting by people other then the > original authors is one of the reasons why we had so much trouble in > the 2.x and 3.x days. Look at how little VFS has been touched in the It depends whether we're talking about evolutionary changes or revolutionary changes. Are you talking about radical changes like e.g. moving from the BSD scheduler to ULE or more like interface and code refactorization? In the former, yes, new bugs will be introduced, which leads again to the problem of too complex code managed by too few people. > I mean, I don't think anyone can honestly say that the scheduler is > 'done', or even close to done. Look at how long the original 42 scheduler IMHO ULE is making progress quite fast. I wouldn't rely on it for production, but so far is looks very good. > non-interrupt threads due to priority borrowing, and non deterministic > side effects from blocking in a mutex (because mutexes are used for > many things now that spl's were used for before, this is a very > serious issue). Yes, that's the main problem I see, not much on the scheduler side, but on the 6-trillion-mutexes side. > See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention > DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. Makes me wonder if some of the solutions proposed by DragonFly could be ported to FreeBSD, but I doubt it will be done, since it's more or less admitting that the current solution is wrong. Yes, I mentioned DragonFly (how dare he!). Feel free to flame, I've become extremely efficient at adding people to /etc/postfix/access :-P Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:32:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D6216A4CE for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 14B3143D5C for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:32:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 95722 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Jan 2004 07:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.4.1.5?) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 07:32:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 00:35:01 -0700 (MST) From: Scott Long X-X-Sender: scottl@pooker.samsco.home To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:32:34 -0000 All, Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to install floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to constantly battle the floppies. FreeBSD/i386 is the only port left that generates install floppies. Their primary purpose is to fascilitate installing FreeBSD on systems where a CDROM is either not available or is incompatible with the 'Non-Emulated El Torito' boot method that we use on our CDs. Systems that cannot boot these CDs are typically those that are also not certified for WinNT4, Win2K, or WinXP. Thus, nearly all machines produced after 1997 can boot our CDs. It is certainly possible to run FreeBSD 5.x on machines of this and prior vintage, and I certainly do not want to dispute or question any motives here. However, the number of machines in this category is steadily declining as time goes on, while the effort put into supporting install floppies seems to be on the rise. I certainly do not want to orphan these machines, so we need to find a compromise. One solution is to find a dedicated 'floppy maintainer' that will frequently assess the floppies during the normal developement periods and work closely with the Release Engineering team to ensure that there are few surprises when it's time to cut a release. I would expect this person to develop and execute a test plan that covers all of the common aspects of installing via floppy: basic sanity checks, loading drivers, installing via the various mechanisms, etc. This person should also be comfortable with modifying makefiles and the sysinstall source. The other solution is to replace install floppies with an 'Emulated El Torito' CD image. I'm not going to go into the differences between 'non-emulated' and 'emulated' except to say that 'emulated' is the method used on FreeBSD 4.x (and prior), Win95, and Win98. Virtually every system in existance that supports a CDROM supports this method. This image would contain the loader, kernel, and MFS root, just like the current 'bootonly.iso' image, but would be configured for emulated booting. Users could download this image, burn it, boot it, and then install FreeBSD just like they normally would. Of course this adds the requirement of needing a CD burner, but these devices are becoming common enough that it could be a reasonable expectation. Switching to this method doesn't entirely remove the headache of release floppies, but it does make it signficantly easier to deal with them. The 'emulated' method actually uses a 2.88MB floppy image that combines the first two 1.44MB floppies that we traditionally produce. By combining them, we have a bit more flexibility since the driver modules that are on the second floppy can go back into the kernel image and benefit from the compression that happens there. So, this is something to consider before 5.3. After that, we are stuck with the consequences of whatever we choose (or don't choose) for the entire 5.x lifespan. I do not cherish the thought of fighting floppies for another 2-3 years. I'm happy to work with someone who steps forward and is committed to maintaining the floppies as they are today. Otherwise, we need to seriously consider the alternative. Thanks, Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:34:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E24916A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:34:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193AE43D46; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:33:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i087Xe7B033676; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i087Xenp033675; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:33:40 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:34:06 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > for whopping 28 days. I agree the ports tree has not been completely open for as long as it should be recently. This is due to unforeseen problems that resulted in significant delays for both 4.9-RELEASE and 5.2-RELEASE. It's difficult to see how this could have been handled any better. Hopefully there will be fewer problems with future releases. Non-committers can help here by testing -STABLE and -BETA snapshots more extensively so that more problems are ironed out before the ports tags are laid down. (An alternative might be to delay the ports tagging until later in the release cycle, but I suspect that is just as likely to cause problems by having last minute ports breakages cause delays). > Limitations of CVS don't exactly help either. The fact that you need > direct access to the repository to be able to copy a tree with > history (repocopy) as opposed to this operation being part of the > interface[1], which means being lucky enough to find a committer, > and get them commit the stuff within the blink of an eye ports is > open, further constrains people's ability to work on FreeBSD with > some satisfaction. I'm not sure what is meant by this paragraph. CVS doesn't support renaming files or directories - which can be a nuisance. As used within the Project, "repocopy" means manually copying parts of the repository to simulate file/directory duplication or renaming. This ability is restricted to a very small subset of committers - normal committers have to request repocopies as do non-committers. OTOH, replicating the complete FreeBSD CVS repository is trivial via either CVSup or CTM and both procedures are documented in the handbook. Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:51:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3C816A4D0; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1893D43D55; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avleen@pear.silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AeUwV-0009Sd-Gb; Wed, 07 Jan 2004 23:50:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:50:59 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Sender: Avleen Vig cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:51:01 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:35:01AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > So, this is something to consider before 5.3. After that, we are > stuck with the consequences of whatever we choose (or don't choose) for > the entire 5.x lifespan. I do not cherish the thought of fighting > floppies for another 2-3 years. I'm happy to work with someone who steps > forward and is committed to maintaining the floppies as they are today. > Otherwise, we need to seriously consider the alternative. Scott, While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this CD format, please take in to account: There are lots of machines with no CD drives: "Slimline" machines a la dell/compaq/hp/gateway Many corporate workstations Laptops Machines older than 1997 (this is mostly anything early PII chips and older, of which there are still a lot). Freebsd does work great on old hardware :) I'm sure there are others I can't think of at almost midnight.. :) I understand it is difficult to maintain the floppies. I wish I understood them better :-) Is it not possible to have "ftp install" floppies, which do nothing more than simple FTP installations? -- Avleen Vig Systems Administrator Personal: www.silverwraith.com EFnet: irc.mindspring.com (Earthlink user access only) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:53:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB9816A4D0; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DAD43D2F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i087rgtV068200; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i087rdFj068197; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:53:39 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200401080753.i087rdFj068197@apollo.backplane.com> To: Miguel Mendez References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Brett Glass cc: dyson@iquest.net cc: Munden Randall J cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:53:47 -0000 :> See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention :> DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. : :Makes me wonder if some of the solutions proposed by DragonFly could be :ported to FreeBSD, but I doubt it will be done, since it's more or less :admitting that the current solution is wrong. : :Yes, I mentioned DragonFly (how dare he!). Feel free to flame, I've :become extremely efficient at adding people to /etc/postfix/access :-P : :Cheers, :-- : Miguel Mendez I think the correct approach to thinking about these abstractions would be to look at the code design implifications rather then just looking at performance, and then decide whether FreeBSD would benefit from the type of API simplification that these algorithms make possible. The best example of this that I have, and probably the *easiest* subsystem to port to FreeBSD (John could probably do it in a day), which I think would even wind up being exremely useful in a number of existing subsystems in FreeBSD (such as the slab allocator), would be DFly's IPI messaging code. I use the IPI messaging abstraction sort of like a 'remote procedure call' interface... a way to execute a procedure on some other cpu rather then the current cpu. This abstraction allows me to execute operations on data structures which are 'owned' by another cpu on the target cpu itself, which means that instead of getting a mutex, operating on the data structure, and releasing the mutex, I simply send an asynch (don't wait for it to complete on the source cpu) IPI message to the target cpu. By running the particular function, such as a scheduling request, in the target cpu's context, you suddenly find yourself in a situation where *NONE* of the related scheduler functions, and there are over a dozen of them, need to mess with mutexes. Not one. All they need to do to protect their turf is enter a critical section for a short period of time. The algorithm simplification is significant... you don't have to worry about crossing a thread boundary, you can remain in the critical section through the actual switch code which removes a huge number of special cases from the switch code. You don't have to worry about mutexes blocking, you don't have to worry about futzing the owner of any mutexes, you don't have to worry about the BGL, you don't have to worry about stale caches between cpus, the code works equally well in a UP environment as it does in an SMP environment... cache pollution is minimized... the list goes on an on. So looking at these abstractions just from a performance standpoint misses some of the biggest reasons for why you might want to use them. Algorithmic simplification and maintainability are very important. Performance is important but not relevant if the resulting optimization cannot be maintained. In anycase, I use IPIs to do all sorts of things. Not all have worked out... my token passing code, which I tried to use as a replacement for lockmgr interlocks, is pretty aweful and I consider it a conceptual failure. But our scheduler, slab allocator, and messaging code, and a number of other mechanisms, benefit from huge simplifications through their use of IPI messaging. Imagine... the messaging code is able to implement its entire API, including queueing and dequeueing messages on ports, without using a single mutex and (for all intents and purposes) without lock-related blocking. The code is utterly simple yet works between cpus, between mainline code and interrupts with preemption capabilities, and vise-versa. There are virtually no special cases. Same with the slab code, except when it needs to allocate a new zone from kernel_map, and same with the scheduler. -Matt Matthew Dillon From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:58:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BBDE16A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7626D43D5A; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F481521C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:58:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1993720F2A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:58:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:58:11 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Avleen Vig Message-ID: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:58:18 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this > CD format, please take in to account: And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. It seems to me that we could split more out into modules, and/or add more disks of modules (maybe categorize a "storage device" modules disk, a "network drivers" modules disk, etc, keeping just the more common devices in the main kernel). Last I saw, the current system only created a single modules disk, which was a godsend to a kernel overflowing one disk, but as we add more and more stuff becomes another, albeit larger, noose. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 00:14:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7FD16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 00:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D2F43D66; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 00:13:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely5.cicely.de (cicely5.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301:200:92ff:fe9b:20e7]) (authenticated bits=0) i088DWN1016084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:13:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (cicely12.cicely.de [IPv6:3ffe:400:8d0:301::12]) by cicely5.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i088DN4H011735 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:13:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: from cicely12.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i088DMBE051461; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:13:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso@cicely12.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely12.cicely.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i088DJYH051460; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:13:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:13:19 +0100 From: Bernd Walter To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20040108081318.GM47728@cicely12.cicely.de> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely12.cicely.de 5.2-CURRENT alpha User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 X-Spam-Report: * -4.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% * [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on cicely5.cicely.de cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:14:19 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 01:58:11AM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this > > CD format, please take in to account: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. My personal descision was to use Compactflash Media in IDE mode. They are easy to modify with your notebook. -- B.Walter BWCT http://www.bwct.de ticso@bwct.de info@bwct.de From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 01:02:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C22D16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 934AA43D31 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 97168 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Jan 2004 09:02:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.4.1.5?) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 09:02:43 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:05:14 -0700 (MST) From: Scott Long X-X-Sender: scottl@pooker.samsco.home To: "Matthew D. Fuller" In-Reply-To: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:02:48 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this > > CD format, please take in to account: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. Well, using the emulated boot cd would only be about 3MB and would only contain the sysinstall environment, so you'd still be installing over the LAN or whatever. As someone else pointed out, it is apparently possible to use Compact Flash as the media instead of a CD, so that is something to consider also. > > It seems to me that we could split more out into modules, and/or add more > disks of modules (maybe categorize a "storage device" modules disk, a > "network drivers" modules disk, etc, keeping just the more common devices > in the main kernel). Last I saw, the current system only created a > single modules disk, which was a godsend to a kernel overflowing one > disk, but as we add more and more stuff becomes another, albeit larger, > noose. > For 5.x we already have a 3rd floppy that is dedicated to modules. Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly as well as it should because there is no way to activate it during the boot sequence; it can only be used once sysinstall is running. Also, it too is nearly overflowing. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 01:52:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B71916A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de [131.159.0.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745BD43D1D for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from langd@informatik.tu-muenchen.de) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:52:08 +0100 From: Daniel Lang To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> X-Geek: GCS/CC d-- s: a- C++$ UBS++++$ P+++$ L- E-(---) W+++(--) N++ o K w--- O? M? V? PS+(++) PE--(+) Y+ PGP+ t++ 5+++ X R+(-) tv+ b+ DI++ D++ G++ e+++ h---(-) r++>+++ y+ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at informatik.tu-muenchen.de cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:52:11 -0000 --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Matthew D. Fuller wrote on Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 01:58:11AM -0600: [..] > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. That's no point, as you can use a CD-RW, so no media is wasted. Install over LAN is done anyway, as Scott mentioned only the basic boot/install-strap is put into the emulated image. However, I second the point, that there is recent hardware around which cannot have a CD-Drive attached, but a floppy drive, because of space constraints. On the other hand, I guess such systems are able to boot over the network. I'd love to see a integrated boot and installation procedure that utilizes PXE (or any other network boot method) and advocates it. (In this regard I just love Suns). my 0.02=A4, Daniel --=20 IRCnet: Mr-Spock - Work is for people, who don't surf - =20 Daniel Lang * dl@leo.org * +49 89 289 18532 * http://www.leo.org/~dl/ --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIIXgAYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIXcTCCF20CAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC FUAwggbMMIIFtKADAgECAgIVezANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADCBpjELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxETAP BgNVBAcTCE11ZW5jaGVuMSkwJwYDVQQKEyBUZWNobmlzY2hlIFVuaXZlcnNpdGFldCBNdWVu Y2hlbjEiMCAGA1UECxMZRmFrdWx0YWV0IGZ1ZXIgSW5mb3JtYXRpazEYMBYGA1UEAxMPUkJH LUJlbnV0emVyLUNBMRswGQYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFgxjYUBpbi50dW0uZGUwHhcNMDMwNTIwMTIz MTQyWhcNMDQwNTIxMDAwMDAwWjCBqzELMAkGA1UEBhMCREUxETAPBgNVBAcTCE11ZW5jaGVu MSkwJwYDVQQKEyBUZWNobmlzY2hlIFVuaXZlcnNpdGFldCBNdWVuY2hlbjEiMCAGA1UECxMZ RmFrdWx0YWV0IGZ1ZXIgSW5mb3JtYXRpazEUMBIGA1UEAxMLRGFuaWVsIExhbmcxJDAiBgkq hkiG9w0BCQEWFWRhbmllbC5sYW5nQGluLnR1bS5kZTCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAw 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mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C96716A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1925E43D48 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AeX0v-000GXh-8A; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:03:41 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:03:41 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Garance A Drosihn Message-ID: <20040108100341.GF27903@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F606435AF1B@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <3FFAF1D4.4000709@iconoplex.co.uk> <3FFB4499.3050301@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:03:43 -0000 On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 05:23:30PM -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I would add that I've been running almost exclusively on 5.x > for over a year now (except for one machine which I have not > rebooted in over a year...). There have been some *very* > painful transitions at various times, but once I get past > the transitions the system has been quite stable. (fwiw, > in my case, I am only running on desktop systems). Well, what you've told me there is: - 5.x is a pain in the arse to make the transition to - You're not running FBSD in the same environment I am - But for you that's all OK, and I should agree :-) Which doesn't get us much further down the road, but thanks for the input. I have two boxes here that need to go into a co-lo tomorrow, and therefore need to be installed today. 5.2-RC2 does seem to be holding out better than expected now I've had it up for a week or so on a dev machine. I'm tempted to whirl it out on these boxes, but if they die I'm screwed. Dunno. I'm not sure if I can trust you, Des, and others when it's my cahunas on the line. > So, once we stop making major API/ABI changes and the branch > is truly stable (with a 6.x branch for new cutting-edge > developments), I personally am quite confident that 5.x will > be a stable, production-quality system. And there are a > number of features in 5.x that I think are tremendous > advantages -- especially for boxes in a production setting. It might be worth somebody getting those written up and sent out to -advocacy to start the ball rolling, as per another mail somewhere in this monstrous thread. > My guess is you're going to have a large bar tab at the next > BSDcon... Certainly I hope so! I've run tabs at the bar at conferences before, and I'm sure I'll do it again... -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:09:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668BA16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.wingercom.dk (mailbox.easyspeedy.dk [81.19.240.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC6943D39 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from per@xterm.dk) Received: from mailbox.wingercom.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailbox.wingercom.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D7C5931AD; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:12:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from 62.242.151.142 (SquirrelMail authenticated user per) by mailbox.wingercom.dk with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:12:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <36414.62.242.151.142.1073556725.squirrel@mailbox.wingercom.dk> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:12:05 +0100 (CET) From: "Per Engelbrecht" To: In-Reply-To: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:09:04 -0000 Hi Matthew and others I think that we all can find reasons to (or not to) use floppies, but I don'tthink that was the issue in Scott's mail. The generational change from 4.x to 5.x where the majority of the code hasbeen rewritten (in my opinion an extremly healthy sign for any kind of serious development) has taken it's toll on the develepors and commiterstime and energy, which is why they need to fix some kind of order of priorityin their future work. Evolution has caught up beasts as mammuth's, Cherry Coke and floppies. I for one, won't miss them and would rather have the developer team spenttheir time on security, SMP, GEOM and other vital and important issues. Best regards /per per@xterm.dk > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: >> >> While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will >> support this CD format, please take in to account: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, > and even if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a > CD blank just to install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 > floppies and do it across the LAN from a local FTP mirror, which > is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > > It seems to me that we could split more out into modules, and/or > add more disks of modules (maybe categorize a "storage device" > modules disk, a "network drivers" modules disk, etc, keeping just > the more common devices in the main kernel). Last I saw, the > current system only created a single modules disk, which was a > godsend to a kernel overflowing one disk, but as we add more and > more stuff becomes another, albeit larger, noose. > > > -- > Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net > Systems/Network Administrator | > http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ > > "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I > haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:10:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B08316A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB6443D55; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id C1D93530A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:09:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id C04495308; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:09:49 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 50DDB33C9A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:09:49 +0100 (CET) To: Mark Murray References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:09:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> (Roman Neuhauser's message of "Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:08:38 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:10:09 -0000 Roman Neuhauser writes: > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > for whopping 28 days. I strongly suspect that this could be at least partially alleviated by giving portmgr more package-building hardware to play with. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:14:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3106416A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD0743D45; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:14:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802341521C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:14:53 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 6F92920F2A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:14:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:14:51 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:14:57 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 02:05:14AM -0700 I heard the voice of Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > > For 5.x we already have a 3rd floppy that is dedicated to modules. > Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly as well as it should because there > is no way to activate it during the boot sequence; it can only be used > once sysinstall is running. Also, it too is nearly overflowing. Well, that's why I suggest more. Have a "network cards" floppy, and a "mass storage devices" floppy, etc. We should be able to fit the half-dozen most common network cards, the ata drivers, and a half dozen of the more common SCSI drivers on the boot kernel. That'll get us far enough to be able to load the drivers off the other disks, as well as install with just that on many systems. It won't necessarily be the prettiest process, but I'm in favor of letting the floppies be a bit ugly, or even explicitly moving them to "experienced users only" status. I just find them far too convenient, as well as ubiquitous, to see them sent into the Great Bitbucket In The Sky yet. If somebody wants "pretty" and "not have to fudge around to find the driver to load for my RAID controller", THEN let 'em download the CD :) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:41:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E1A16A4D0 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFD2243D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 98945 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Jan 2004 10:41:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.4.1.5?) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 10:41:24 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:43:55 -0700 (MST) From: Scott Long X-X-Sender: scottl@pooker.samsco.home To: "Matthew D. Fuller" In-Reply-To: <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:41:29 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 02:05:14AM -0700 I heard the voice of > Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > For 5.x we already have a 3rd floppy that is dedicated to modules. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly as well as it should because there > > is no way to activate it during the boot sequence; it can only be used > > once sysinstall is running. Also, it too is nearly overflowing. > > Well, that's why I suggest more. Have a "network cards" floppy, and a > "mass storage devices" floppy, etc. We should be able to fit the > half-dozen most common network cards, the ata drivers, and a half dozen > of the more common SCSI drivers on the boot kernel. That'll get us far > enough to be able to load the drivers off the other disks, as well as > install with just that on many systems. > > It won't necessarily be the prettiest process, but I'm in favor of > letting the floppies be a bit ugly, or even explicitly moving them to > "experienced users only" status. I just find them far too convenient, as > well as ubiquitous, to see them sent into the Great Bitbucket In The Sky > yet. > > If somebody wants "pretty" and "not have to fudge around to find the > driver to load for my RAID controller", THEN let 'em download the CD :) > Well, regardless of how you label it, these floppies still require lots of care and feeding in order to work. We currently have no way to support multiple floppies in a convenient way. This can be fixed in a variety of ways that range from fragile hacks to wonderful designs, but it still requires someone to put forth the effort. My offer for a 'floppy maintainer' is quite sincere; I hope that someone takes an interest and steps up to the challenge. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 03:16:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6186516A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF2043D62 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rmkml@wanadoo.fr) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (AVelizy-109-1-5-142.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.48.102.142]) by mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 1569AA40020D for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:16:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:13:17 +0100 (CET) From: rmkml X-X-Sender: rmkml@hp.mgn.net To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: problem with signal handling and threads (fbsd49R) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:16:54 -0000 Hi, I've got a problem with signal handling and threads. I've reproduced the problem in a simple code. Description of program: install a signal handler SIGINT. create a thread that do nothing except waiting. main thread use poll to wait forever [ poll(,,-1) ]. user has too crtl-C to interrupt poll after 5 ctrl-C, loop is over and main-thread signals sub-thread to stops. In fact, it appears not to work correctly: after one ctrl-C, user has to press ctrl-C twice before poll returns with errno=EINTR !! If the thread creation is removed from code, the expected behavior is seen : the program works fine. If I replace the poll by sigsuspend() the program works fine too. Is there something wrong with poll function ? Maybe something is wrong in the approach or in the source code ! Any suggstions are wellcome. here is sample C code : _______________________________________ test_thread_signals.c _______________________________________ #define __EXTENSIONS__ #define _REENTRANT /* basic first 3-lines for threads */ #define _GNU_SOURCE #define _THREAD_SAFE #define _POSIX_PTHREAD_SEMANTICS #include #include #include #include #include #include pthread_mutex_t mutex; pthread_t thread; pthread_cond_t condition; void *run(void *argp); static void handler(int); int main(int argc, char **argv) { pthread_attr_t attr; register int i, res; struct pollfd poll_fd; sigset_t set; signal(SIGINT, handler); pthread_attr_init( &attr ); pthread_attr_setdetachstate( &attr, PTHREAD_CREATE_DETACHED); pthread_mutex_init(&mutex, 0); pthread_cond_init(&condition, 0); /** comment the following line to see the "normal" behavior **/ pthread_create(&thread, &attr, run, 0); pthread_attr_destroy( &attr ); poll_fd.fd = -1; poll_fd.revents=0; poll_fd.events=0; sigemptyset(&set); puts("main: begin loop"); for(i=0; i<5; i++) { /** wait forever **/ res = poll( &poll_fd, (unsigned long)1, -1 ); /** using sigsuspend ... **/ /* res = sigsuspend(&set); */ if( res == -1 && errno==EINTR ) { puts("ctrl-C received"); } printf("res = %d - errno = %d \n", res, errno ); } puts("send sub thread term signal"); pthread_cond_signal(&condition); puts("main end"); return 0; } void *run(void *argp) { puts("begin sub thread and wait"); pthread_mutex_lock(&mutex); pthread_cond_wait(&condition, &mutex); pthread_mutex_unlock(&mutex); puts("end sub thread"); return 0; } void handler(int signo) { } _______________________________________ compilation with $ gcc -g2 -ansi -Wall -o test_thread_signals.o -c test_thread_signals.c $ gcc -o test_thread_signals -pthread test_thread_signals.o here is the results with the original code : $ ./test_thread_signals main: begin loop begin sub thread and wait ^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^C^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^C^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^C^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^C^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 send sub thread term signal main end and the trace with no sub thread : $ ./test_thread_signals main: begin loop ^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 ^Cctrl-C received res = -1 - errno = 4 send sub thread term signal main end Regards. Rmkml@Wanadoo.fr From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 03:49:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF5116A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaft.techsupport.co.uk (shaft.techsupport.co.uk [212.250.77.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265B743D31; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 03:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.103.67.204] helo=shrike.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by shaft.techsupport.co.uk with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AeYfV-000FJ7-Pz; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:49:42 +0000 Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AeYfS-000I2G-Cr; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:49:38 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:49:38 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Ryan Sommers Message-ID: <20040108114938.GP8322@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Ryan Sommers , Nick Rogness , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:49:51 -0000 --ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:45:25PM -0600, Ryan Sommers wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:29, Nick Rogness wrote: > > 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature > >=20 > > - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a=20 > > developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for=20 > > would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. > > Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great=20 > > understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and=20 > > what-not. > >=20 > > You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR > > to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or=20 > > maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. > >=20 > > This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if=20 > > needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can=20 > > make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the=20 > > project as part of that money could go back into the Project. > >=20 > > You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests)=20 > > which someone like myself would email a request with the problem=20 > > description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the=20 > > problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. > >=20 > > The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a=20 > > "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to > > some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong=20 > > areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. =20 > > ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-)=20 > >=20 >=20 > I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some > official part of the project. I think this might discourage some from > contributing in hopes to be paid for it. I think a better solution for > companies looking for this would be to post to the jobs@ mailing list > noting that it is a temp job. >=20 > I don't think giving priority to paying entities is a path the project > should tread down. If someone needs FreeBSD developer work they should > look for someone to hire. Something like this might also jeopardize the > project's "not for profit" status. I think the jobs@ mailing list would > be a better start. Absolutely. At least in Britain, the Project could then be seen as working as an agent which has the potential to cause problems that we don't need and probably would find very hard to deal with. Ceri --=20 --ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//UPSocfcwTS3JF8RAswAAKDGUQ6/qCmqZzWd+ZHwp/mw9daIzgCfeAv7 dtakaCIMytt6U2kgk1R8arw= =DM3q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ncX6roZrNNHXnAbh-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 04:11:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC0316A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.alphaque.com (ns2.alphaque.com [202.75.47.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 25C1D43D45 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:10:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dinesh@alphaque.com) Received: (qmail 69596 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2004 12:10:55 -0000 Received: from lucifer.net-gw.com (HELO prophet.alphaque.com) (202.75.47.153) by lucifer.net-gw.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 12:10:55 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.alphaque.com [127.0.0.1]) by prophet.alphaque.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08C9wHi000523; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:09:58 +0800 (MYT) (envelope-from dinesh@alphaque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:09:58 +0800 (MYT) From: Dinesh Nair To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, In-Reply-To: <20040107212459.X330-100000@prophet.alphaque.com> Message-ID: <20040108200607.N384-100000@prophet.alphaque.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: SOLVED: ADMtek USB To LAN Converter and HomePNA X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 12:11:04 -0000 people, the following patch solves this problem. according to the ADM8511 datasheet, a couple of registers need to be set with specific values to enable the HomePNA PHY on the device. the current aue(4) driver does not do this, and thus by default the device will only enable the Ethernet PHY. you'd need to rebuild kernel or just kldunload/kldload if using the if_aue.ko module. ------- CUT HERE ------- --- if_aue.c.org Thu Jan 8 19:29:27 2004 +++ if_aue.c Thu Jan 8 19:29:27 2004 @@ -581,7 +581,7 @@ csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 6); else #endif - csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 2); + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 6); } Static void @@ -610,6 +610,7 @@ */ csr_write_1(sc, AUE_GPIO0, AUE_GPIO_OUT0|AUE_GPIO_SEL0); csr_write_1(sc, AUE_GPIO0, AUE_GPIO_OUT0|AUE_GPIO_SEL0|AUE_GPIO_SEL1); + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_GPIO1, 0x34); /* Grrr. LinkSys has to be different from everyone else. */ if (sc->aue_info->aue_flags & LSYS) { -------CUT HERE ------- On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Dinesh Nair wrote: > hey, > > i have one of the above. it's a usb device which connects to a HomePNA > network, with a 10/100Mbps ethernet port as well as a couple of RJ11s for > the HomePNA connection. > > my problem is i am unable to utilize this device to connect to the HomePNA > network. upon plugging it in, the console says: > > aue0: ADMtek USB To LAN Converter, rev 1.10/1.01, addr 2 > aue0: Ethernet address: 00:08:54:d0:5d:2e > miibus1: on aue0 > pnaphy0: on miibus1 > pnaphy0: HomePNA > > ifconfig aue0 response is: > aue0: flags=8802 mtu 1500 > ether 00:08:54:d0:5d:2e > media: Ethernet homePNA (none) > > i run 'ifconfig aue0 10.1.105.26 netmask 0xffff0000 media homepna' and the > device then gets to the following: > > aue0: flags=8843 mtu 1500 > inet 10.1.105.26 netmask 0xffff0000 broadcast 10.1.255.255 > ether 00:08:54:d0:5d:2e > media: Ethernet homePNA > status: active > > however, i am unable to ping any ip address other than the interface's > address. obviously, no firewalls (ipfw/ipchains/ipf) are being run and > this is on FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE built as of a couple of weeks back. > > i've played around with disabling the ethernet PHY on the device with the > following diff to /usr/src/sys/dev/usb/if_aue.c: > > --- CUT HERE --- > --- if_aue.c.org Wed Jan 7 20:02:51 2004 > +++ if_aue.c Wed Jan 7 21:04:06 2004 > @@ -434,6 +434,28 @@ > #endif > } > > + /* > + * The Am79C978 HomePNA PHY actually contains > + * two transceivers: a 1Mbps HomePNA PHY and a > + * 10Mbps full/half duplex ethernet PHY with > + * NWAY autoneg. However, the HomePNA PHY is > + * not recognized, but the 10/100Mbps PHY is > + * though. This skips over the 10/100Mbps PHY > + * and only activates the 1Mbps HomePNA PHY > + * > + * Modified by Dinesh Nair > + * Wed Jan 7 20:36:34 MYT 2004 > + * > + */ > + if (sc->aue_info->aue_vid == USB_VENDOR_ADMTEK && > + sc->aue_info->aue_did == USB_PRODUCT_ADMTEK_PEGASUSII) { > + if (phy == 1) > + return(0); > + } > + /* > + * End of modifications by Dinesh Nair > + */ > + > csr_write_1(sc, AUE_PHY_ADDR, phy); > csr_write_1(sc, AUE_PHY_CTL, reg|AUE_PHYCTL_READ); > --- CUT HERE --- > > but to no avail. i've discovered that the ethernet PHY is phy==1, while > the two RJ11 PHYs are 2 and 3. > > the ethernet PHY works fine and dandy, and i am able to connect it to my > local switch fine. however, i need to use it for a HomePNA application, > and thus need to HomePNA portion of this to work. > > any ideas from anyone who's tried something like this before with some > measure of success ? any media types or mediaopts i should be passing to > ifconfig ? > > this setup is used by a broadband provider in kuala lumpur, malaysia and > to date this has been the one barrier which prevents freebsd users from > utilizing their service. > > Regards, /\_/\ "All dogs go to heaven." > dinesh@alphaque.com (0 0) http://www.alphaque.com/ > +==========================----oOO--(_)--OOo----==========================+ > | for a in past present future; do | > | for b in clients employers associates relatives neighbours pets; do | > | echo "The opinions here in no way reflect the opinions of my $a $b." | > | done; done | > +=========================================================================+ > > Regards, /\_/\ "All dogs go to heaven." dinesh@alphaque.com (0 0) http://www.alphaque.com/ +==========================----oOO--(_)--OOo----==========================+ | for a in past present future; do | | for b in clients employers associates relatives neighbours pets; do | | echo "The opinions here in no way reflect the opinions of my $a $b." | | done; done | +=========================================================================+ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 04:57:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F1B16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8C143D58; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:57:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE135B; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:57:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C30912FDA12; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:57:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:57:38 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20040108125738.GQ54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Jeremy , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 12:57:43 -0000 # peterjeremy@optushome.com.au / 2004-01-08 18:33:40 +1100: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > > Limitations of CVS don't exactly help either. The fact that you need > > direct access to the repository to be able to copy a tree with > > history (repocopy) as opposed to this operation being part of the > > interface[1], which means being lucky enough to find a committer, > > and get them commit the stuff within the blink of an eye ports is > > open, further constrains people's ability to work on FreeBSD with > > some satisfaction. > > I'm not sure what is meant by this paragraph. CVS doesn't support > renaming files or directories - which can be a nuisance. As used > within the Project, "repocopy" means manually copying parts of the > repository to simulate file/directory duplication or renaming. This > ability is restricted to a very small subset of committers - normal > committers have to request repocopies as do non-committers. I somewhat lumped two things together there: * general port updates from lot of people going through a handful of committers, which on one hand helps QA by adding eye balls, but OTOH slows the process down. * repocopies go through a fraction of the abovementioned handful Now, I'm by no means advocating everybody should get ssh login on [dnp]cvs.freebsd.org; I just can't wait for the day when FreeBSD uses a SCM that handles tags and branches efficiently (so that people can freely create branches of areas they hack), that has permissions model with file- or directory-level granularity (so that people can be granted commit e. g. in /ports/x11-wm/openbox and nowhere else), etc. -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 05:17:10 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8496E16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D2643D5C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:17:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avleen@pear.silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Aea27-000Ch6-NX; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 05:17:07 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:17:07 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040108131707.GB53429@silverwraith.com> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Sender: Avleen Vig cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:17:10 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:43:55AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > Well, regardless of how you label it, these floppies still require lots of > care and feeding in order to work. We currently have no way to support > multiple floppies in a convenient way. This can be fixed in a variety > of ways that range from fragile hacks to wonderful designs, but it still > requires someone to put forth the effort. My offer for a 'floppy > maintainer' is quite sincere; I hope that someone takes an interest and > steps up to the challenge. The other big "problem" with removing floppies, is that not everyone has a cd burner. I wouldn't even say the majority of FreeBSD users have CD burners. I think someone mentioned this. I would love to be the 'floppy maintainer', but I know very little about the actual process and sadly don't have the time either :( -- Avleen Vig Systems Administrator Personal: www.silverwraith.com EFnet: irc.mindspring.com (Earthlink user access only) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 05:30:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCB016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns2.alphaque.com (ns2.alphaque.com [202.75.47.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 259AF43D5E for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dinesh@alphaque.com) Received: (qmail 70899 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jan 2004 13:30:21 -0000 Received: from lucifer.net-gw.com (HELO prophet.alphaque.com) (202.75.47.153) by lucifer.net-gw.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 13:30:21 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.alphaque.com [127.0.0.1]) by prophet.alphaque.com (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08DU1ac000357; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:30:01 +0800 (MYT) (envelope-from dinesh@alphaque.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:30:01 +0800 (MYT) From: Dinesh Nair To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Message-ID: <20040108212829.C336-100000@prophet.alphaque.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: SOLVED: ADMtek USB To LAN Converter and HomePNA X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:30:33 -0000 use the following patch instead of earlier one. earlier patch hardcoded use of HomePNA PHY and disabled Ethernet PHY. this patch corrects this behaviour and allows switching between either PHY thru use of the ifconfig command. this means that the USB dongle can either be used as an Ethernet device (connect to switch/hub) or as a HomePNA access device, but not both simultaneously. ifconfig aue0 media homepna # activates HomePNA PHY/RJ11 ifconfig aue0 media auto # activates Ethernet PHY/RJ45 using auto as media type is synonymous with the following media types: 10baseT 10baseT-FDX 100baseTX 100baseTX-FDX much apologies for not checking things correctly before submitting the patch. patch follows: ------- CUT HERE ------- --- if_aue.c.org Wed Jan 7 20:02:51 2004 +++ if_aue.c Thu Jan 8 21:12:23 2004 @@ -118,7 +118,7 @@ { USB_VENDOR_ACCTON, USB_PRODUCT_ACCTON_USB320_EC, 0 }, { USB_VENDOR_ACCTON, USB_PRODUCT_ACCTON_SS1001, PII }, { USB_VENDOR_ADMTEK, USB_PRODUCT_ADMTEK_PEGASUS, PNA }, - { USB_VENDOR_ADMTEK, USB_PRODUCT_ADMTEK_PEGASUSII, PII }, + { USB_VENDOR_ADMTEK, USB_PRODUCT_ADMTEK_PEGASUSII, PNA|PII }, { USB_VENDOR_BELKIN, USB_PRODUCT_BELKIN_USB2LAN, PII }, { USB_VENDOR_BILLIONTON, USB_PRODUCT_BILLIONTON_USB100, 0 }, { USB_VENDOR_BILLIONTON, USB_PRODUCT_BILLIONTON_USBLP100, PNA }, @@ -492,6 +492,17 @@ mii = device_get_softc(sc->aue_miibus); AUE_CLRBIT(sc, AUE_CTL0, AUE_CTL0_RX_ENB|AUE_CTL0_TX_ENB); + + if (IFM_SUBTYPE(mii->mii_media_active) == IFM_homePNA) { + if (sc->aue_info->aue_flags & (PNA|PII)) { + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_GPIO1, 0x34); + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 6); + } + } else { + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_GPIO1, 0x26); + csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 2); + } + if (IFM_SUBTYPE(mii->mii_media_active) == IFM_100_TX) { AUE_SETBIT(sc, AUE_CTL1, AUE_CTL1_SPEEDSEL); } else { @@ -576,12 +587,10 @@ /* Magic constants taken from Linux driver. */ csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_1D, 0); csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_7B, 2); -#if 0 - if ((sc->aue_flags & HAS_HOME_PNA) && mii_mode) - csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 6); - else -#endif + + if (sc->aue_info->aue_flags & PNA) { csr_write_1(sc, AUE_REG_81, 2); + } } Static void ------- CUT HERE ------- --dinesh From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 05:48:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0F016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3793943D5F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 05:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id i08DmYiw015598; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:48:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:48:34 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen X-Sender: eischen@pcnet5.pcnet.com To: rmkml In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: problem with signal handling and threads (fbsd49R) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:48:36 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, rmkml wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a problem with signal handling and threads. > I've reproduced the problem in a simple code. > Description of program: > install a signal handler SIGINT. > create a thread that do nothing except waiting. > main thread use poll to wait forever [ poll(,,-1) ]. > user has too crtl-C to interrupt poll > after 5 ctrl-C, loop is over and main-thread signals sub-thread to > stops. > > In fact, it appears not to work correctly: after one ctrl-C, user has to > press ctrl-C twice before poll returns with errno=EINTR !! > If the thread creation is removed from code, the expected behavior is > seen : the program works fine. > > If I replace the poll by sigsuspend() the program works fine too. > > Is there something wrong with poll function ? No, it's your program. Why do you think the signal will only be delivered to the main thread and not the other (run) thread? If you want a particular thread to receive a signal, then you had better set up signal masks for all threads appropriately (or use sigwait()). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 06:39:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4630016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 06:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F8743D5E for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 06:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (bicknell@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08EdY2x052588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i08EdYiD052587 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:39:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:39:34 -0500 From: Leo Bicknell To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108143934.GA51446@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mail-Followup-To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Organization: United Federation of Planets X-PGP-Key: http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:39:37 -0000 --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm going to propose a different solution that was brought up about two years ago (although I can't find it now). You start with something like the CD boot image mentioned, that is a 3-5 Meg iso image that basically contains what is now on the floppies (perhaps with a few more drivers/modules) and nothing more. Downloading and burning to CD would be the primary method of install. Then, to replace the current floppy process, a new floppy installer is created. It may or may not be based on FreeBSD, but what it needs to be able to do is boot, load a network driver, configure the network, and ftp the above mentioned iso into ram, and then jump into the kernel from the iso as if it had been loaded from a CD. Yes, I'm grossly oversimplifing the process, but it removes all of sysinstall from the floppy, all the need for crunchgen and all that, as it should be fairly easy (again, perhaps not with a full kernel) to support a number of network drivers and a basic FTP client on a single floppy. The only real direct freebsd issue is to make the kernel able to boot itself from memory, and then treat that memory as a ram disc on boot. It would require a whole new floppy booter setup, but I can see other OS projects using something like this as well, so perhaps some cross work with NetBSD or OpenBSD, or even the Linux camp could make an open source "load an image" floppy, that since it just loaded an ISO could load about anything. --=20 Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//WumNh6mMG5yMTYRAnOiAJ9auUonmzwqKT2/oADRLMhqPvhjogCfYsQi 7THSoJLpnDr0R/fDc4+ICVg= =WO51 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 22:17:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B4116A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D933443D3F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:17:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from runaround.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24592; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:14 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040107214422.03c16cd8@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 21:45:06 -0700 To: Avleen Vig From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> References: <79B4EAB03B5E4649A740A8C1452F60643523F0@y6001a.umb.corp.umb.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20040105134236.03b51cc0@localhost> <20040107024735.GW2838@silverwraith.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:43:19 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:17:23 -0000 At 07:47 PM 1/6/2004, Avleen Vig wrote: >Advocacy is NOT a race Yes, it is. Linux is where it is today because it grabbed more buzz, sooner, than BSD. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 7 23:17:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740E116A4CE; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-119-53-122.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B03943D5F; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1EFC166E61; Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:17:31 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Mark Murray , Paul Robinson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108071730.GA53328@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:43:19 -0800 Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:17:49 -0000 --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > for whopping 28 days. That might be technically true, but it's misleading and doesn't support the point you're trying to make. During this period the ports collection has only been frozen for a couple of weeks, and the majority of commit activities were not restricted for the rest of the period in question. > Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the former) > leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this > rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) I would have thought the procedure to rectify this would be obvious: if you find that something is inadequately documented, or unclearly documented, then you need to make specific suggestions on what should be done to improve the documentation. We *need* this kind of feedback to figure out how to make the docs better from the point of view of the target audience. Kris --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//QQKWry0BWjoQKURAiE0AKCkVjPwB+aZ2AiWuPx+vTFCjUfHXACg2rT3 jCZuXiHkxIWgPfMkOqgrLPo= =iDcD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:27:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23EA16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-119-53-122.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D6E43D4C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 37B9766E67; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:27:30 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20040108102730.GA55397@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:43:19 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:27:32 -0000 --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 11:09:49AM +0100, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Roman Neuhauser writes: > > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > > for whopping 28 days. >=20 > I strongly suspect that this could be at least partially alleviated by > giving portmgr more package-building hardware to play with. It's certainly true that we're lacking in build hardware for some non-i386 platforms (particularly sparc64), and this made it pretty tricky to build packages for 5.2 on those architectures (a full sparc64 build takes at least a month). I've heard some rumours of donated equipment waiting to be installed, but I don't know what the status of that is. Likewise, a 5.2 i386 build takes about a week, which means that the freeze *cannot* be shorter than this, even if everything goes perfectly (which, in practise, never happens). This time around, the freeze started on 23 Nov and was lifted on 3 Dec. That's 10 days, which is about as good as you could hope for. If we could build packages in - say - a day, we'd be able to cut the freeze time down further, although I expect the duration would become limited by the speed at which problems can be corrected. Every now and then we get offers of access to a machine here or a machine there to help with building packages. The main problem with donating machine resources is that there's limited space in the freebsd.org equipment racks, and the package build system currently needs LAN-equivalent connectivity between the machines. To be useful we'd either need a full cluster of faster machines located somewhere, or to find time to rewrite the build scripts to work efficiently with remote build resources. Kris --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//TCRWry0BWjoQKURArzwAKCnIUZSbEPPntlK0rUPkcR/FjBTiACfTVlj rIJvecSvYBWt8R8TmViPgFw= =PkRG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 02:30:29 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9307816A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-119-53-122.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B943E43D1D; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7041266E67; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:30:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:30:25 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20040108103025.GA55606@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:43:19 -0800 cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:30:29 -0000 --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 04:14:51AM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 02:05:14AM -0700 I heard the voice of > Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > >=20 > > For 5.x we already have a 3rd floppy that is dedicated to modules. > > Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly as well as it should because there > > is no way to activate it during the boot sequence; it can only be used > > once sysinstall is running. Also, it too is nearly overflowing. >=20 > Well, that's why I suggest more. Have a "network cards" floppy, and a > "mass storage devices" floppy, etc. We should be able to fit the > half-dozen most common network cards, the ata drivers, and a half dozen > of the more common SCSI drivers on the boot kernel. That'll get us far > enough to be able to load the drivers off the other disks, as well as > install with just that on many systems. Ideas are cheap, but someone's going to have to write the sysinstall code to do that (or any other modified scheme people might be able to come up with). Kris --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//TFBWry0BWjoQKURApT3AKD3VyHJ3N2lEFC3UW+EtVZlrbtU/gCfaDMi O9suy8+4EKKFDXvU12MgjzI= =Fe2U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 04:22:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA6716A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.svenskabutiker.se (ns.svenskabutiker.se [212.247.101.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C5143D31; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 04:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin@mullet.se) Received: from mullet.se (h118n1fls31o985.telia.com [213.65.16.118]) by mail.svenskabutiker.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA217377AA; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:22:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3FFD4B8E.6050102@mullet.se> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:22:38 +0100 From: Martin Nilsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: sv, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Long References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> In-Reply-To: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 06:43:19 -0800 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 12:22:44 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > FreeBSD/i386 is the only port left that generates install floppies. > Their primary purpose is to fascilitate installing FreeBSD on systems > where a CDROM is either not available or is incompatible with the > 'Non-Emulated El Torito' boot method that we use on our CDs. Systems that > cannot boot these CDs are typically those that are also not certified for > WinNT4, Win2K, or WinXP. Thus, nearly all machines produced after 1997 > can boot our CDs. Are you aware that the FreeBSD CD:s (both 4.9 & 5.2) are not bootable on a CD-ROM connected via USB? Both try to boot but hangs somewhere in the loader. This is on our P4 Supermicro serverboards. As usual Win2K, 2K3 & RedHat just works. An external USB2.0 connected Asus CD-RW drive (52x/24x/52x) with power supply costs about $70 so this is really nothing expensive or fancy today. If anybody can give me directions on how to debug this I'm willing to help. /Martin -- Martin Nilsson, CTO & Founder, Mullet Scandinavia AB, Malmö, SWEDEN E-mail: martin@mullet.se, Phone: +46-(0)708-606170, http://www.mullet.se Our business is well engineered servers optimized for FreeBSD and Linux. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 06:49:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B1016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 06:49:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from chuggalug.clues.com (chuggalug.demon.co.uk [62.49.17.236]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0370E43D45 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 06:49:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geoffb@chuggalug.clues.com) Received: from chuggalug.clues.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chuggalug.clues.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i08Eif3N031789 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:44:41 GMT (envelope-from geoffb@chuggalug.clues.com) Received: (from geoffb@localhost) by chuggalug.clues.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i08Eifgm031788 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:44:41 GMT (envelope-from geoffb) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:44:40 +0000 From: Geoff Buckingham To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108144440.GA31326@chuggalug.clues.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Anyone working on cobalt code? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:49:22 -0000 This is by now old news, but I ws wondering if anyone had allready taken a look at the RAQ code Sun released under a BSD licence just before christmas. The source is available at http://open.cobaltqube.org/ THe readme is which is in the tarball looks like this: 23 December 2003 Thank you for downloading the Sun Cobalt Open Source RaQ550 v1.0 Distribution. LICENSES: All software in this distribution, except files contained in the kernel/ directory tree, are subject to the terms of the license file "sun_bsd.txt" located in the directory root of this distribution. All files contained in the kernel/ directory tree are subject to the terms of the license file "gpl.txt" located in the directory root of this distribution. The RaQ550 distribution is composed of many publicly available RPM software packages that can be downloaded in source or binary form from: ftp://ftp.cobalt.sun.com/pub/products/raq550/ This Sun Cobalt Open Source RaQ550 Distribution is a collection of source code not previously available to the public. The ui/ directory contains a snapshot of the sustained RaQ550 appliance front and back-end code as of September 2003. Majordomo has been removed from base-maillist.mod/src/majordomo/ due to license issues. It is easiest to expand this archive on an existing RaQ550 as the root user. Install ui/devel-tools/ by running the following commands: cd ui/devel-tools make make install bluelinq/ is the BlueLinQ server software that hosts distributions to the embedded BlueLinQ clients in the Sun Cobalt RaQ XTR, Qube3 and RaQ550. kernel/bwmgmt is the source to the traffic shaping kernel module This source is is licensed under the terms of the file gpl.txt included in the directory root of this distribution. cce/ is the Cobalt Configuration Engine, a custom dispatching database used by most of the appliance code in ui/ cce-shell-tools/ is a command line interface toolset for CCE. Enjoy, Will DeHaan TODO - port this to your general purpose OS of choice (Debian and Suse street please) - use this code to help out every shop that supported Cobalt back in the day From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 07:26:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB37116A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vitsch.net (b74143.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.74.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E60F43D31 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:26:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Received: from FreeBSD.Danovitsch.LAN (b83007.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.83.7]) by Vitsch.net (8.12.3p2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i08FPaXe006663; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:25:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) From: "Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN]" To: Bernd Walter Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:25:50 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <3FFA04A8.30601@evilrealms.net> <200401071104.37461.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> <20040108060156.GH47728@cicely12.cicely.de> In-Reply-To: <20040108060156.GH47728@cicely12.cicely.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_27G6VZGUKWL81X5FUH53" Message-Id: <200401081625.50446.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USB stack / configuration 0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:26:04 -0000 --------------Boundary-00=_27G6VZGUKWL81X5FUH53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday 08 January 2004 07:01, Bernd wrote: > Im mostly worried about having more than a single device with address 0= =2E > You can't do this as long as another device gets initialized. > Therefor I thought disabling/enabling the port would be better, but I'm > wrong as the result is be the same. With the changes I have made, it is only possible to let the USB stack re= set=20 the device from the ATTACH routine of a driver. This should garantee that= =20 there is only one device with addr=3D=3D0 , since the probe & attach rout= ines are=20 only called from one process. > > For my device driver I have made a small change to the USB Stack and = I > > have introduced the return code "USB_ATTACH_NEED_RESET" for drivers t= o > > tell the USB Stack thee device needs to be re-enumerated. The stack t= hen > > automatically re-assigns the device it's address, and re-probes for > > drivers. This way even two seperate drivers could be made : one with = the > > firmware and one with the real driver. > > Is anyone interrested in a patch maybe? > Sounds interesting. Have a look at the patch attached to this mail. My idea is to let a driver upload the firmware from it's ATTACH routine a= nd=20 after that return with USB_ATTACH_NEED_RESET. Since some devices really=20 require a reset to be sent to it and others only need to be re-configured= ,=20 the USB stack doesn't send the reset itself. The ATTACH function is=20 responsible for sending the reset to the device. After getting the NEED_RESET response, the USB stack assumes the device i= s=20 ready and listening at addr=3D=3D0 again. The stack re-reads the device=20 descriptor, sets the address again and tries another round of attaching=20 drivers. We give up after 5 rounds of NEED_RESET. If anyone knows a more elegant way to achieve the same functionality, I'm= open=20 to ideas :) grtz, Daan --------------Boundary-00=_27G6VZGUKWL81X5FUH53 Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="iso-8859-1"; name="diff-2004-01-08-usb-reset" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="diff-2004-01-08-usb-reset" diff -ur usb.org/usb_port.h usb/usb_port.h --- usb.org/usb_port.h Wed Oct 2 09:44:20 2002 +++ usb/usb_port.h Wed Jan 7 20:26:55 2004 @@ -435,6 +435,7 @@ /* Returns from attach */ #define USB_ATTACH_ERROR_RETURN return ENXIO #define USB_ATTACH_SUCCESS_RETURN return 0 +#define USB_ATTACH_NEED_RESET return EAGAIN #define USB_ATTACH_SETUP \ sc->sc_dev = self; \ diff -ur usb.org/usb_subr.c usb/usb_subr.c --- usb.org/usb_subr.c Wed Jan 15 00:07:43 2003 +++ usb/usb_subr.c Wed Jan 7 22:50:20 2004 @@ -86,6 +86,9 @@ Static int usbd_print(void *aux, const char *pnp); Static int usbd_submatch(device_ptr_t, void *, void *); #endif +Static usbd_status usbd_new_device2(device_ptr_t parent, usbd_bus_handle bus, + int depth, int speed, int port, + struct usbd_port *up); Static void usbd_free_iface_data(usbd_device_handle dev, int ifcno); Static void usbd_kill_pipe(usbd_pipe_handle); Static usbd_status usbd_probe_and_attach(device_ptr_t parent, @@ -131,6 +134,7 @@ "SHORT_XFER", "STALLED", "INTERRUPTED", + "NEED_RESET", "XXX", }; @@ -888,6 +892,14 @@ uaa.ifaceno = ifaces[i]->idesc->bInterfaceNumber; dv = USB_DO_ATTACH(dev, bdev, parent, &uaa, usbd_print, usbd_submatch); + + if (dev->address == USB_START_ADDR) { +#if defined(__FreeBSD__) + device_delete_child(parent, bdev); +#endif + return (USBD_NEED_RESET); + } + if (dv != NULL) { dev->subdevs[found++] = dv; dev->subdevs[found] = 0; @@ -958,7 +970,7 @@ * and attach a driver. */ usbd_status -usbd_new_device(device_ptr_t parent, usbd_bus_handle bus, int depth, +usbd_new_device2(device_ptr_t parent, usbd_bus_handle bus, int depth, int speed, int port, struct usbd_port *up) { usbd_device_handle dev; @@ -1099,6 +1111,12 @@ err = usbd_probe_and_attach(parent, dev, port, addr); if (err) { + if (err == USBD_NEED_RESET) { + DPRINTFN(1,("usbd_new_device: device needs reset\n")); + /* must set address back to what it was */ + dev->address = addr; + } + usbd_remove_device(dev, up); return (err); } @@ -1106,6 +1124,27 @@ usbd_add_dev_event(USB_EVENT_DEVICE_ATTACH, dev); return (USBD_NORMAL_COMPLETION); +} + +usbd_status +usbd_new_device(device_ptr_t parent, usbd_bus_handle bus, int depth, + int speed, int ports, struct usbd_port *up) +{ + int retry = 0; + usbd_status err; + + err = usbd_new_device2(parent, bus, depth, speed, ports, up); + while ((err == USBD_NEED_RESET) && (retry++ < 5)) { + DPRINTFN(1,("usb_new_device: re-enumerating device\n")); + err = usbd_new_device2(parent, bus, depth, speed, ports, up); + } + + if (retry == 5) { + DPRINTFN(1,("usb_new_device: giving up after 5 tries...\n")); + return (USBD_NOT_CONFIGURED); + } + + return err; } usbd_status diff -ur usb.org/usbdi.h usb/usbdi.h --- usb.org/usbdi.h Mon May 6 20:23:36 2002 +++ usb/usbdi.h Wed Jan 7 21:45:11 2004 @@ -66,6 +66,7 @@ USBD_SHORT_XFER, /* 16 */ USBD_STALLED, /* 17 */ USBD_INTERRUPTED, /* 18 */ + USBD_NEED_RESET, /* 19 */ USBD_ERROR_MAX /* must be last */ } usbd_status; --------------Boundary-00=_27G6VZGUKWL81X5FUH53-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 07:36:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09F116A4D1 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2618743D2F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avleen@pear.silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AecCg-000EKr-DS for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:36:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:36:10 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108153610.GW53429@silverwraith.com> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108143934.GA51446@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108143934.GA51446@ussenterprise.ufp.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Sender: Avleen Vig Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:36:16 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 09:39:34AM -0500, Leo Bicknell wrote: > It would require a whole new floppy booter setup, but I can see > other OS projects using something like this as well, so perhaps > some cross work with NetBSD or OpenBSD, or even the Linux camp could > make an open source "load an image" floppy, that since it just > loaded an ISO could load about anything. If I understand you right.. A floppy boot, which loads the absolutely basic stuff (network drivers, and some easy way to config the network) and then goes and grabs the installer would otherwise be on the current floppies and "boots" it? This sounds like a good solution - they we wouldn't have to worry about: If people have cd burners or not The size of the installer (for most practical purposes as long as the installer itself doesn't hit 600Mb :P) Compatibility with CD drives From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 07:42:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F96916A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1682143D5A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:42:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avleen@pear.silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AecJ7-000EP0-4g; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 07:42:49 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:42:49 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Martin Nilsson Message-ID: <20040108154248.GX53429@silverwraith.com> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <3FFD4B8E.6050102@mullet.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFD4B8E.6050102@mullet.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Sender: Avleen Vig cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:42:52 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 01:22:38PM +0100, Martin Nilsson wrote: > Are you aware that the FreeBSD CD:s (both 4.9 & 5.2) are not bootable on > a CD-ROM connected via USB? Both try to boot but hangs somewhere in the > loader. This is on our P4 Supermicro serverboards. As usual Win2K, 2K3 & > RedHat just works. An external USB2.0 connected Asus CD-RW drive > (52x/24x/52x) with power supply costs about $70 so this is really > nothing expensive or fancy today. Please do not assume that because it costs $70 it is universally availible. There are a lot of people who cannot afford this: the unemployed school children retired persons (sometimes) people with families to support :) Unfortuantely I feel this does need to be taken in to account here. While I totally empathise with Scott's problem and the lack of time to do things the way we have been, we need to appreciate that telling everyone to burn a CD to install FreeBSD (thus incur costs if you don't have a CD burner, and wouldn't need one if not to install FreeBSD) is not far from the "You must pay us to buy this on CD" approach (openbsd) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 07:51:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187F916A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DE343D58; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6FF3D28; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:51:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:51:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3FFD3623.28381.FCEE067B@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3FFA7EB7.32065.F25158B9@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chello blocking FreshPorts service X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:51:17 -0000 On 6 Jan 2004 at 9:24, Dan Langille wrote: > For some months Chello has denied smtp service from the FreshPorts > mail server. All queries to Chello regarding this matter have gone > unanswered. > > $ telnet smtpgate.chello.at 25 > Trying 213.46.255.2... > Connected to smtpgate.chello.at. > Escape character is '^]'. > 421 viefep12-int.chello.at connection refused from [66.154.97.250] > Connection closed by foreign host. > > This happens for all Chello domains I have tried. This means that > Chello users are unable to use the FreshPorts notification service. > For what it's worth, this also affect the FreeBSD Diary announcement > mailing list. > > If anyone has contacts at Chello, please ask them to look into this. > All attempts to get this resolved have been blocked. > > I've heard many stories about Chello standards of service. This > situation validates everything I've heard. I have had some information from a third party. It appears that Chello are using xbl.selwerd.cx as a RBL. My research indicates that xbl.selwerd.cx should not be used as an RBL: http://mla.libertine.org/tmda-users/2002-11/msg00049.html Anyone here using xbl.selwerd.cx? -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 07:56:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D2516A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDBB43D45; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i08FuRHV075667; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:56:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i08FuMqt075662; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:56:26 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:56:22 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Matthew D. Fuller" In-Reply-To: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: <20040108175523.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:56:30 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this > > CD format, please take in to account: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. Which would obviously mean that there would be lots of volunteers for the position of floppy maintainer? > > -- > Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net > Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ > > "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I > haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 08:36:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C753716A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaft.techsupport.co.uk (shaft.techsupport.co.uk [212.250.77.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D703343D48; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.103.67.204] helo=shrike.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by shaft.techsupport.co.uk with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1Aed9N-000G1i-Lh; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:36:49 +0000 Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Aed9L-000MSV-SL; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:36:47 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:36:47 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040108163647.GR8322@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Scott Long , hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="By57YlnFViWR/M0S" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:36:54 -0000 --By57YlnFViWR/M0S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:35:01AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > All, >=20 > Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to install > floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the > Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to > constantly battle the floppies. Floppies can go as far as I'm concerned, with the one proviso that we start shipping a /boot.config containing '-P'. Without floppies, the only ways to do a headless install are PXE and cutting your own release with that /boot.config in place, and not all machines can do PXE. Ceri --=20 --By57YlnFViWR/M0S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//YcfocfcwTS3JF8RAlmCAJ0b9GSxRCvpK/X2ZOgN0V3enqV5jgCgrTUv zCesjcV2qM5c0DQjr7DUXmw= =b/0Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --By57YlnFViWR/M0S-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 08:42:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC0616A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaft.techsupport.co.uk (shaft.techsupport.co.uk [212.250.77.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C5843D54; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:42:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.103.67.204] helo=shrike.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by shaft.techsupport.co.uk with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AedEt-000G2A-04; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:42:31 +0000 Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AedEr-000MVF-1M; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:42:29 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:42:29 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Scott Long , hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108164228.GS8322@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Scott Long , hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108163647.GR8322@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="//h4sZKAxcnndsN6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108163647.GR8322@submonkey.net> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:42:34 -0000 --//h4sZKAxcnndsN6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 04:36:47PM +0000, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:35:01AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > > All, > >=20 > > Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to insta= ll > > floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the > > Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to > > constantly battle the floppies. >=20 > Floppies can go as far as I'm concerned, with the one proviso that we > start shipping a /boot.config containing '-P'. Without floppies, the > only ways to do a headless install are PXE and cutting your own release > with that /boot.config in place, and not all machines can do PXE. Actually, I'd like to go one further and suggest that we do this anyway. Ceri --=20 --//h4sZKAxcnndsN6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//Yh0ocfcwTS3JF8RAppGAJ9+ryNvknkTBrSBqJoX/VSOSRDaoACcDGXk IO70VmykLiQqMoUmSkFBRaU= =mBKY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --//h4sZKAxcnndsN6-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:11:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5861E16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2EC43D5A for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:11:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (IDENT:brdavis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.10/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i08HB9A7010958; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:11:09 -0800 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.10/8.12.3/Submit) id i08HB8ob010957; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:11:08 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:11:08 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Daniel Lang Message-ID: <20040108171108.GA6216@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) on odin.ac.hmc.edu cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:11:18 -0000 --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 10:52:08AM +0100, Daniel Lang wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Matthew D. Fuller wrote on Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 01:58:11AM -0600: > [..] > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and ev= en > > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. >=20 > That's no point, as you can use a CD-RW, so no media is wasted. > Install over LAN is done anyway, as Scott mentioned only the > basic boot/install-strap is put into the emulated image. >=20 > However, I second the point, that there is recent hardware around > which cannot have a CD-Drive attached, but a floppy drive, because > of space constraints. >=20 > On the other hand, I guess such systems are able to boot over > the network. I'd love to see a integrated boot and installation > procedure that utilizes PXE (or any other network boot method) > and advocates it. (In this regard I just love Suns). PXE installs are fun and easy. I use them for the no removable media boxes on our cluster when I need a local install for testing. The process is roughly (See Alfred's PXE article for details. Just ignore the kernel mods.): mount an install cd (assuming /cdrom as mountpoint) export /cdrom via nfs point a tftpd server at /cdrom configure a dhcpd with the necessicary lines to boot from /boot/pxeboot boot and install (I think you may need to choose to do an nfs install in sysinstall, but I'm not 100% sure of that.) I think it would be really cool if someone would add a feature to disk 1 to become a PXE install server. It should be fairly straight forward other then dealing with sysinstall. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE//Y8qXY6L6fI4GtQRApZ6AJ4ruIOZhjqXH+Q/AQklwbqatxvQ4wCeKGju NwjbX49jk4mMO4ig2N7e9Ic= =X9Il -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VS++wcV0S1rZb1Fb-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:16:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B508516A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7222A43D1F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 7906 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2004 17:16:10 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 8 Jan 2004 17:16:10 -0000 Received: from 10.50.40.206 (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i08HFqM0038106; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:15:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) From: John Baldwin To: Roman Neuhauser , Peter Jeremy Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:25:14 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <20040108073340.GI25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20040108125738.GQ54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> In-Reply-To: <20040108125738.GQ54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401081125.15181.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:16:15 -0000 On Thursday 08 January 2004 07:57 am, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > Now, I'm by no means advocating everybody should get ssh login on > [dnp]cvs.freebsd.org; I just can't wait for the day when FreeBSD > uses a SCM that handles tags and branches efficiently (so that > people can freely create branches of areas they hack), that has > permissions model with file- or directory-level granularity (so that > people can be granted commit e. g. in /ports/x11-wm/openbox and > nowhere else), etc. Note that cvs_acls.pl and the avail files already allow directory-level (and possibly file-level) ACLs. They aren't very widely used at the moment, however. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:17:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6AF16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from phuket.psconsult.nl (ps226.psconsult.nl [213.222.19.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE4A43D55 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@phuket.psconsult.nl) Received: from phuket.psconsult.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phuket.psconsult.nl (8.12.6p3/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i08HGwGB058546 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:16:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from paul@phuket.psconsult.nl) Received: (from paul@localhost) by phuket.psconsult.nl (8.12.6p3/8.12.6/Submit) id i08HGwx5058545 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:16:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:16:58 +0100 From: Paul Schenkeveld To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108171658.GA58159@psconsult.nl> Mail-Followup-To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:17:03 -0000 Hi All, On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:35:01AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > All, > > Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to install > floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the > Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to > constantly battle the floppies. > > ... What if the loader would be able to load a, potentially large, kernel split over two or more floppies? That would allow for the same kernel that goes on the CD-Rom to be used for floppy install, greatly simplifying the release process. Or are my thoughts to simplistic? > Thanks, > > Scott Regards, Paul Schenkeveld, Consultant PSconsult ICT Services BV From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:24:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CE016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CB043D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:24:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists-freebsd@silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Aedtq-000FY1-4o; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:24:50 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:24:49 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Narvi Message-ID: <20040108172449.GE53429@silverwraith.com> References: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108175523.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108175523.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:24:52 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 05:56:22PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > > Which would obviously mean that there would be lots of volunteers for the > position of floppy maintainer? How you made the jump from "I don't want to buy a CD burner to install FreeBSD" to "I will be a floppy maintainer" I'm not sure. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:29:48 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DCD16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from multiplay.co.uk (www1.multiplay.co.uk [212.42.16.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BD443D48 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steven@multiplay.co.uk) Received: from steven ([193.123.241.40]) by multiplay.co.uk (multiplay.co.uk [212.42.16.7]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.5.R) with ESMTP id 32-md50000000780.tmp for ; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:21:39 +0000 Message-ID: <109501c3d60d$d49d66b0$7b07000a@steven> From: "Steven Hartland" To: "Avleen Vig" , "Narvi" References: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net><20040108175523.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040108172449.GE53429@silverwraith.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:35:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Processed: multiplay.co.uk, Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:21:39 +0000 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 193.123.241.40 X-Return-Path: steven@multiplay.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:29:48 -0000 Need necessitates effort? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Avleen Vig" > How you made the jump from "I don't want to buy a CD burner to install > FreeBSD" to "I will be a floppy maintainer" I'm not sure. :-) ================================================ This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:30:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD0A16A4D0; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (mailgate.nlsystems.com [80.177.232.242]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686AB43D4C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:30:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) i08HTY1i037741; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:29:34 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) From: Doug Rabson To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:29:34 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on herring.nlsystems.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:30:02 -0000 On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:19, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > > > [1] has core@ considered subversion (devel/subversion)? > > Everyone has their eyes wide open looking for a revision control > alternative, but last time it was discussed in detail (a few months ago?) > it seemed there still wasn't a viable alternative. On the src tree side, > FreeBSD committers are making extensive use of a Perforce repository > (which supports lightweight branching, etc, etc), but there's a strong > desire to maintain the base system on a purely open source revision > control system, and migrating your data is no lightweight proposition. > Likewise, you really want to trust your data only to tried and true > solutions, I think -- we want to build an OS, not a version control > system, if at all possible :-). Subversion seems to be the current > "favorite" to keep an eye on, but the public release seemed not to have > realized the promise of the design (i.e., no three-way merges, etc). You > can peruse the FreeBSD Perforce repository via the web using > http://perforce.FreeBSD.org/ -- it contains a lot of personal and small > project sandboxes that might be of interest. For example, we do all the > primary TrustedBSD development in Perforce before merging it to the main > CVS repository. I've been re-evaluating the current subversion over the last couple of weeks and its holding up pretty well so far. It still misses the repeated merge thing that p4 does so well but in practice, merging does seem to be a lot easier than with CVS due to the repository-wide revision numbering system - that makes it easy to remember when your last merge happened so that you don't merge a change twice. The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin dump and load. 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test material for the migration scripts. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:34:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0285D16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (skywalker.rogness.net [64.251.173.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD7F43D5C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from skywalker.rogness.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by skywalker.rogness.net (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id i08HZlPb016416; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:35:47 -0700 (envelope-from nick@rogness.net) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost)i08HZlcq016412; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:35:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: skywalker.rogness.net: nick owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:35:47 -0700 (MST) From: Nick Rogness To: Ryan Sommers In-Reply-To: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:34:13 -0000 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Ryan Sommers wrote: > On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 20:29, Nick Rogness wrote: > > 1) Allow for paid development for a specific bug/feature > > > > - Setup some program that allows users like myself to pay for a > > developers time to fix a specific bug. The company I work for > > would easily pay serious dollars to fix our SMP problems with 4.X. > > Unfortunetly, getting someone's attention that has a great > > understanding of the OS is hard to find without rude remarks and > > what-not. > > > > You could even extend it as far as saying we will promote this PR > > to the top of the list of tasks if you pay us XX dollars. Or > > maybe, the more you pay the higher you go. > > > > This would reassure the user base that things CAN get done if > > needed and also let the developer/bug fixer feel like they can > > make money and have some fun. It will also bring in money for the > > project as part of that money could go back into the Project. > > > > You could easily setup a "pool" mailling list (like -requests) > > which someone like myself would email a request with the problem > > description (or PR). If a developer is interested in tackling the > > problem for money, we could privately negotiate a price. > > > > The same can be done for driver development and others. Make it a > > "Donation for a specific request". I don't want to give money to > > some Foundation where money can be thrown around in the wrong > > areas. I want to pay the developer personally for their efforts. > > ( I feel the same should be done with our taxes as well ;-) > > > > I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some > official part of the project. I think this might discourage some from > contributing in hopes to be paid for it. I think a better solution for > companies looking for this would be to post to the jobs@ mailing list > noting that it is a temp job. The point was not to take away from contributing developers only to pay someone who is familiar with the problem. I don't want to have to hire someone that doesn't have a clue on the problem and takes 6 months to even become familiar with a specific PR. I don't see anything wrong with paying someone who is working on my PR. Even it is a small amount. I'm not a company and can't afford to hire a programmer to develop a driver for me personally. However, if someone is working on a driver already and is time contstrained, I would pay some money to help relieve some of the time stress involved. I gave suggestions for keeping developers happy and efficient. Money is the only REAL answer. Perhaps this could be done through a company that contracts just FreeBSD developers. I know of no such company. I guess I will have to be satisfied with -jobs for now. > > I don't think giving priority to paying entities is a path the project > should tread down. If someone needs FreeBSD developer work they should > look for someone to hire. Something like this might also jeopardize the > project's "not for profit" status. I think the jobs@ mailing list would > be a better start. (I'm going to be looking for a full time job in about > 11 months and if I got one where I got to code/administer BSD I'd feel I > was in Heaven.) :-) Agreed. -- Nick Rogness - How many people here have telekenetic powers? Raise my hand. -Emo Philips From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:36:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF8716A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD2243D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2535B for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:36:45 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 859582FDA10; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:36:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:36:42 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108173642.GS54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040108071730.GA53328@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108071730.GA53328@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:36:50 -0000 # kris@obsecurity.org / 2004-01-07 23:17:31 -0800: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > > > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last four > > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > > for whopping 28 days. > > That might be technically true, but it's misleading and doesn't > support the point you're trying to make. During this period the ports > collection has only been frozen for a couple of weeks, and the > majority of commit activities were not restricted for the rest of the > period in question. That might be technically true, but the precise semantics of "(semi-)freeze" aren't as widely known as you seem to think. E. g. yesterday or today I received an email from a committer in response to my two mails to ports@ (the first urging a repocopy requested in a PR some time ago, the other retracting the request because of the freeze) saying (paraphrased) "to my surprise I was told repocopies are allowed during freeze". Some people just prefer to err on the safe side. > > Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the former) > > leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this > > rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) > > I would have thought the procedure to rectify this would be obvious: The procedure really is obvious, but there's only so much time in a day. Also, I would have thought the Porter's handbook would e. g. contain info on preventing installation of .la files (I gathered from the ports@ list that they shouldn't be installed), isn't this lack quite obvious? -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:45:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056C316A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BFA43D2F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (bicknell@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08HjJ2x064023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:45:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i08HjJhx064022 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:45:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:45:19 -0500 From: Leo Bicknell To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108174518.GB63506@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: United Federation of Planets X-PGP-Key: http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:45:21 -0000 --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message written on Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 10:35:47AM -0700, Nick Rogness= wrote: > Perhaps this could be done through a company that contracts just > FreeBSD developers. I know of no such company. I guess I will=20 > have to be satisfied with -jobs for now. https://www.rentacoder.com/ Maybe someone could get them to make a FreeBSD section, where only people with commit bits can apply for jobs or something.... --=20 Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//ZcuNh6mMG5yMTYRAj2DAJ9JpIV+C2lkNyHRhMbRcWbKlMjYSwCfcPnF lEiAqDTqdIWwsTKAbCx4aOE= =BdRg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:47:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EED16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64C243D49 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:47:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i08HlcHV076836; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:47:38 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i08HlbYg076833; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:47:37 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:47:37 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Steven Hartland In-Reply-To: <109501c3d60d$d49d66b0$7b07000a@steven> Message-ID: <20040108194235.A32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:47:43 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Steven Hartland wrote: > Need necessitates effort? > Precicely. Or even more precicely - the RE team provided an alternative path to eliminating floppy support which they could cope with. It follows that people who want floppy support should work towards that because the other option: you tell RE team that they had better shut up and make it work is not workable becuase they have no compulsion to listen to your and could just walk away any minute they bloody well want anyways. It thus follows that some persons out of the "we want floppy support to stay around" had better start volunteering to be floppy maintainers. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Avleen Vig" > > > How you made the jump from "I don't want to buy a CD burner to install > > FreeBSD" to "I will be a floppy maintainer" I'm not sure. :-) > > ================================================ > This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. > > In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone (023) 8024 3137 > or return the E.mail to postmaster@multiplay.co.uk. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 09:59:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AEE16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE3143D5C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 09:59:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08HxSET084983; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:59:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:59:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> To: ryans@gamersimpact.com From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:59:31 -0000 In message: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> Ryan Sommers writes: : I really don't like the idea of making this a "policy," or even some : official part of the project. It has been going on for years. I've been paid to fix FreeBSD bugs by my employer and as an independent contractor for years now. These fixes get into the FreeBSD system on their merrits, but likely wouldn't have happened if someone wasn't willing to foot the bill. : Something like this might also jeopardize the : project's "not for profit" status. The project is not a legally incorporated entity at this time, and never has been in the past. There is a FreeBSD Foundation, but that's a completely independent organization. Prior to that there was FreeBSD, Inc, which Joran ran as a clearing house for help to those working on the project, but FreeBSD, Inc never was the project. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 10:07:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA4016A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B8B43D1D; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:07:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08I7eET085092; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 11:07:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040108.110732.20914341.imp@bsdimp.com> To: scottl@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> References: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: fullermd@over-yonder.net Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:07:43 -0000 In message: <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> Scott Long writes: : My offer for a 'floppy : maintainer' is quite sincere; I hope that someone takes an interest and : steps up to the challenge. I think people misunderstand Scott's call here. He's not saying that the project doesn't want to support floppies because they are floppies. It isn't a dislike of the technology. Scott is saying that they have become a burdon to the release engineering team. He's saying that he's looking for someone to volunteer to actively help care and feed for the floppies used in the installation process. This is a call for people who care about them to step forward and put some action behind their caring. The only way something stays working in FreeBSD is if enough developers care about it to monitor it constantly. There are many examples of formerly well supported items being less supported now because they impact fewer developers directly. This is one of them. We can all come up with better ideas on how to support these things. Ideas aren't the issue. Elbow grease and sweat are. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 10:13:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DA616A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from opiate.soulwax.net (i216-58-30-170.avalonworks.net [216.58.30.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FD043D49 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:13:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chopra@opiate.soulwax.net) Received: by opiate.soulwax.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CB114405B; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:05:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:05:52 -0500 From: Munish Chopra To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108180552.GA17378@opiate.soulwax.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:13:28 -0000 On 2004-01-08 17:29 +0000, Doug Rabson wrote: [...] > > The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: > > 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin > dump and load. > 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported > and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. > 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers > are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list > archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test > material for the migration scripts. Perfection (or as close as possible) of cvs2svn.py is scheduled for 1.0. They've entered beta now, but without scanning the lists I suppose that's "sometime 2004". I've noticed some other projects having problems with repository conversion, but at least things seem to be getting better. -- Munish Chopra From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 10:21:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C079D16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C9E43D3F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:21:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rmkml@wanadoo.fr) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (AVelizy-109-1-4-246.w80-15.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.15.82.246]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D6FDFE80032C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:21:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:17:42 +0100 (CET) From: rmkml X-X-Sender: rmkml@hp.mgn.net To: Daniel Eischen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: problem with signal handling and threads (fbsd49R) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:21:20 -0000 please can you give me an example of mask to SET BLOCK ou UNBLOCK in both threads (main and run) in order to make this sample code working ? thanks a lot. On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Daniel Eischen wrote: > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:48:34 -0500 (EST) > From: Daniel Eischen > To: rmkml > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: problem with signal handling and threads (fbsd49R) > > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, rmkml wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I've got a problem with signal handling and threads. > > I've reproduced the problem in a simple code. > > Description of program: > > install a signal handler SIGINT. > > create a thread that do nothing except waiting. > > main thread use poll to wait forever [ poll(,,-1) ]. > > user has too crtl-C to interrupt poll > > after 5 ctrl-C, loop is over and main-thread signals sub-thread to > > stops. > > > > In fact, it appears not to work correctly: after one ctrl-C, user has to > > press ctrl-C twice before poll returns with errno=EINTR !! > > If the thread creation is removed from code, the expected behavior is > > seen : the program works fine. > > > > If I replace the poll by sigsuspend() the program works fine too. > > > > Is there something wrong with poll function ? > > No, it's your program. Why do you think the signal will > only be delivered to the main thread and not the other > (run) thread? If you want a particular thread to receive > a signal, then you had better set up signal masks for > all threads appropriately (or use sigwait()). > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 10:42:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4C316A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (mailgate.nlsystems.com [80.177.232.242]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16AF943D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:42:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) i08Ig01i038848; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:42:00 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) From: Doug Rabson To: Munish Chopra In-Reply-To: <20040108180552.GA17378@opiate.soulwax.net> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> <20040108180552.GA17378@opiate.soulwax.net> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1073587320.37229.35.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:42:00 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on herring.nlsystems.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:42:17 -0000 On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 18:05, Munish Chopra wrote: > On 2004-01-08 17:29 +0000, Doug Rabson wrote: > > [...] > > > > > The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: > > > > 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin > > dump and load. > > 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported > > and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. > > 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > > current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > > pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers > > are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list > > archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test > > material for the migration scripts. > > Perfection (or as close as possible) of cvs2svn.py is scheduled for > 1.0. They've entered beta now, but without scanning the lists I suppose > that's "sometime 2004". > > I've noticed some other projects having problems with repository > conversion, but at least things seem to be getting better. There seems to be a reasonably common problem where a single branch point ends up with more than one branch name. This certainly happens in the FreeBSD cvs. If you ignore that error, it gets about 1000 commits into the conversion but then dies with an error in the branch handling code (probably caused by the first problem). There are outstanding problems with vendor branches which it looks like they will fix before 1.0. I've been using the scripts to convert another large repository and they are not quick - my current test has been going for 2.5 days now and it still has about six months worth of repository to convert (the cvs history goes back about seven years in total). I estimate that the complete conversion will take about 3 days and will contain about 15000 commits... From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 11:26:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEED16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (CPE00062566c7bb-CM000039c69a66.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.192.222.167]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CF543D48; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Received: from hermes (hermes.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.18]) by gabby.gsicomp.on.ca (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i08JQO8P030571; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:26:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@gsicomp.on.ca) Message-ID: <00f501c3d61c$d486ac90$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> From: "Matt Emmerton" To: "Scott Long" , "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home><20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net><20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:23:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:26:06 -0000 > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 02:05:14AM -0700 I heard the voice of > > Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > > > For 5.x we already have a 3rd floppy that is dedicated to modules. > > > Unfortunately, it doesn't work nearly as well as it should because there > > > is no way to activate it during the boot sequence; it can only be used > > > once sysinstall is running. Also, it too is nearly overflowing. > > > > Well, that's why I suggest more. Have a "network cards" floppy, and a > > "mass storage devices" floppy, etc. We should be able to fit the > > half-dozen most common network cards, the ata drivers, and a half dozen > > of the more common SCSI drivers on the boot kernel. That'll get us far > > enough to be able to load the drivers off the other disks, as well as > > install with just that on many systems. > > > > It won't necessarily be the prettiest process, but I'm in favor of > > letting the floppies be a bit ugly, or even explicitly moving them to > > "experienced users only" status. I just find them far too convenient, as > > well as ubiquitous, to see them sent into the Great Bitbucket In The Sky > > yet. This is exactly what Debian does. I was a bit ticked when I found I had to make 7 floppy images to get a machine installed, but the important part is that it worked. > Well, regardless of how you label it, these floppies still require lots of > care and feeding in order to work. We currently have no way to support > multiple floppies in a convenient way. This can be fixed in a variety > of ways that range from fragile hacks to wonderful designs, but it still > requires someone to put forth the effort. My offer for a 'floppy > maintainer' is quite sincere; I hope that someone takes an interest and > steps up to the challenge. I myself have 4 machines (out of the 6 in front of me) that are Pentium- or Pentium II-class machines that cannot boot from CD-ROM or PXE, thus floppies are my only choice. Thus, I am genuinely interested in the effort to maintain working floppy images and can help out -- but not to the point of being "maintainer" yet. However, I have no experience building releases at all, so someone from re@ will have to help me along. -- Matt Emmerton From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 11:27:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68A216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5F743D1D for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: from mail.pcnet.com (mail.pcnet.com [204.213.232.4]) by mail.pcnet.com (8.12.10/8.12.1) with ESMTP id i08JRgiw002730; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:27:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:27:42 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen X-Sender: eischen@pcnet5.pcnet.com To: rmkml In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: problem with signal handling and threads (fbsd49R) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 19:27:44 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, rmkml wrote: > please can you give me an example > of mask to SET BLOCK ou UNBLOCK > in both threads (main and run) > in order to make this sample code working ? man pthread_sigmask sigset_t set; sigemptyset(&set); sigsetadd(&set, SIGINT); pthread_sigmask(SIG_BLOCK, &set, NULL); will block SIGINT. Put that in all threads that you don't want to handle CTRL-C. sigprocmask() instead of pthread_sigmask() will work as well. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 12:48:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF3816A54F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.aueb.gr (hermes.aueb.gr [195.251.255.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A3A43D53 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dds@aueb.gr) Received: from aueb.gr (faculty05.right.dialup.aueb.gr [195.251.255.249]) by hermes.aueb.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08KmWiC016091; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:48:33 +0200 Message-ID: <3FFDC218.60607@aueb.gr> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:48:24 +0200 From: Diomidis Spinellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, el, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brooks Davis References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> <20040108171108.GA6216@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> In-Reply-To: <20040108171108.GA6216@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 20:48:45 -0000 Brooks Davis wrote: > I think it would be really cool if someone would add a feature to > disk 1 to become a PXE install server. It should be fairly straight > forward other then dealing with sysinstall. I presume the above means a PXE *client*. This would be cool, but by no means trivial. I looked at this in the past when I wanted to network boot FreeBSD on a couple of machines that did not support a boot ROM and reached a dead end; I ended up using PicoBSD and NFS-mounting most of the stuff. Following Brook's suggestion, I looked around to see how difficult a PXE client project would be. Here are some bullets and pointers: - What we would need is a PXE emulator. PXE stands for Portable Execution *Environment*, and it really does supply a (primitive) but not trivial environment used to bootstrap the code. - Microsoft supplies with its Remote Installation Server (RIS) a program (rbfg.exe) that creates such an emulation floppy. This PXE emulator only supports PCI cards. See http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=242920 - Apparently the same product, but with additional functionality, is sold by Argon Technologies. See http://www.argontechnology.com/rbfg/index.shtml - An open-source project called pxe-toolkit aimed at providing examples of PXE client and server code. The project seems to have dissappeared from the face of the earth. Its homepage on freshmeat and a download page on savannah are dead; a page with links on http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/pxe-toolkit does not contain any useful pointers. - The PXE specification (2.1) is freely available from Intel in PDF format (500K, 103 pages). See ftp://download.intel.com/labs/manage/wfm/download/pxespec.pdf - Implementing a PXE client from scratch is obviously doable, but not trivial. One problem is that the API is 16-bit, so we would have to use 16-bit development tools, libraries, and an execution environment. The client should support a DHCP client, preboot functionality, and an API. The API consists of 37 relatively high-level functions providing TFTP, UDP, and UNDI (Universal Network Driver Interface) functionality. Here is a list to give you a rough idea of the functionality that has to be provided: UNLOAD_STACK, GET_CACHED_INFO, RESTART_TFTP, START_UNDI, STOP_UNDI, START_BASE, STOP_BASE, TFTP_OPEN, TFTP_CLOSE, TFTP_READ, TFTP_READ_FILE, TFTP_GET_FSIZE, UDP_OPEN, UDP_CLOSE, UDP_WRITE, UDP_READ, UNDI_STARTUP, UNDI_CLEANUP, UNDI_INITIALIZE, UNDI_RESET_ADAPTER, UNDI_SHUTDOWN, UNDI_OPEN, UNDI_CLOSE, UNDI_TRANSMIT, UNDI_SET_MCAST_ADDRESS, UNDI_SET_STATION_ADDRESS, UNDI_SET_PACKET_FILTER, UNDI_GET_INFORMATION, UNDI_GET_STATISTICS, UNDI_CLEAR_STATISTICS, UNDI_INITIATE_DIAGS, UNDI_FORCE_INTERRUPT, UNDI_GET_MCAST_ADDRESS, UNDI_GET_NIC_TYPE, UNDI_GET_IFACE_INFO, UNDI_GET_STATE, UNDI_ISR. I hope this information helps if anyone wants to take it up from here. Diomidis -- Diomidis Spinellis Assistant Professor Department of Management Science and Technology (DMST) Athens University of Economics and Business (AUEB) http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/ mailto:dds@aueb.gr From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 13:24:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2B116A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6ED143D64 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:24:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 6111 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2004 21:24:08 -0000 Received: from dsl027-160-063.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) encrypted SMTP for ; 8 Jan 2004 21:24:08 -0000 Received: from 10.50.40.206 (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i08LO1M2039230; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:24:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) From: John Baldwin To: Ceri Davies , Scott Long Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:38:31 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108163647.GR8322@submonkey.net> In-Reply-To: <20040108163647.GR8322@submonkey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401081538.31854.jhb@FreeBSD.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:24:13 -0000 On Thursday 08 January 2004 11:36 am, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 12:35:01AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: > > All, > > > > Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to install > > floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the > > Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to > > constantly battle the floppies. > > Floppies can go as far as I'm concerned, with the one proviso that we > start shipping a /boot.config containing '-P'. Without floppies, the > only ways to do a headless install are PXE and cutting your own release > with that /boot.config in place, and not all machines can do PXE. -P breaks machines with USB keyboards because it doesn't use a very smary keyboard probe check. That's why it was turned off in the first place. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 13:50:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A544216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB48443D4C for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:50:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (IDENT:brdavis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.10/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i08LnsA7020565; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:49:54 -0800 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.10/8.12.3/Submit) id i08LnsQ8020564; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:49:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:49:54 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Diomidis Spinellis Message-ID: <20040108214954.GA16048@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> <20040108171108.GA6216@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3FFDC218.60607@aueb.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AhhlLboLdkugWU4S" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFDC218.60607@aueb.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) on odin.ac.hmc.edu cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:50:12 -0000 --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 10:48:24PM +0200, Diomidis Spinellis wrote: > Brooks Davis wrote: > >I think it would be really cool if someone would add a feature to > >disk 1 to become a PXE install server. It should be fairly straight > >forward other then dealing with sysinstall. >=20 > I presume the above means a PXE *client*. This would be cool, but by no= =20 > means trivial. I looked at this in the past when I wanted to network=20 > boot FreeBSD on a couple of machines that did not support a boot ROM and= =20 > reached a dead end; I ended up using PicoBSD and NFS-mounting most of=20 > the stuff. No, I mean a server. The hard part about using PXE to install a box is setting up the other box to boot the box your are installing on. It's not all the difficult, but it require a bit of knowledge, some grunt work, and a reasionable UNIX-like machine to start from. What I propose is adding enough stuff to disk 1 that you can do pxe installs like this: - find a random box with a cdrom drive and a supported nic - boot the install cd - select the "make me an install server" option from the menu - select an interface and configure it (or take a nice 10-net default) - pxe boot the boxes you want to install on and install over the network - shutdown the server, returning it to its previous function -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE//dCBXY6L6fI4GtQRAimDAJ4mV1vq4Rjlm+wt3kE8LhBrge6GeACfZL6f puxUt6rq4cIKMw1rrOsPEjw= =a7ND -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:02:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C6A16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B9643D4C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:02:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E825B1522C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:02:51 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id F1FAC20F3D; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:02:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:02:49 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040108220249.GM48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:02:55 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:43:55AM -0700 I heard the voice of Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > > Well, regardless of how you label it, these floppies still require lots > of care and feeding in order to work. We currently have no way to > support multiple floppies in a convenient way. My hope is that, with this piece taken care of, the amount of care and feeding necessary to maintain it will be minimized. When adding new drivers, you'd have to stick their names in a list somewhere to be split out, but that's pretty minimal. It should help avoid all the juggling we keep having to do to manage the size. > This can be fixed in a variety of ways that range from fragile hacks to > wonderful designs, but it still requires someone to put forth the > effort. My offer for a 'floppy maintainer' is quite sincere; I hope > that someone takes an interest and steps up to the challenge. I have some interest in this, to be sure. However, every time I've ventured into src/release/ in the past, I've come away with an intense desire for absinthe. I've never successfully built a release, and it's been my impression that you can't just build the floppies, you have to build the full release to have everything in place to build them. That takes a huge chunk of disk space (to say nothing of _TIME_! Just building the kernel and modules takes the better part of a half hour), which are two things in chronically short supply. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:11:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BB116A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3251043D5A for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5531522C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:10:40 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id F3AD820F2A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:10:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:10:38 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Avleen Vig Message-ID: <20040108221038.GN48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108143934.GA51446@ussenterprise.ufp.org> <20040108153610.GW53429@silverwraith.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108153610.GW53429@silverwraith.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:11:27 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 07:36:10AM -0800 I heard the voice of Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > If I understand you right.. > A floppy boot, which loads the absolutely basic stuff (network drivers, > and some easy way to config the network) and then goes and grabs the > installer would otherwise be on the current floppies and "boots" it? Many (most?) Linux dists do this for floppy installs. I've come around to thinking it a better and better idea lately. It makes it easy to have much more bloa... er, "featureful" installers, particularly more graphical ones, since you're no longer limited by the size of a floppy. And even cheap DSL is faster than a floppy drive for loading it, to boot (no pun ;). And you can even provide for loading it off a local CD, if you have a CD drive you can't boot from. The downside is that writing such a beast is a lot more work... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 08:15:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375C416A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from vhost109.his.com (vhost109.his.com [216.194.225.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E446E43D48 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:15:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (localhost.his.com [127.0.0.1]) by vhost109.his.com (8.12.6p3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i08GFExe030400; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:15:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040108102730.GA55397@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040108102730.GA55397@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:37:53 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:11:57 -0800 cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:15:22 -0000 At 2:27 AM -0800 2004/01/08, Kris Kennaway wrote: > It's certainly true that we're lacking in build hardware for some > non-i386 platforms (particularly sparc64), and this made it pretty > tricky to build packages for 5.2 on those architectures (a full > sparc64 build takes at least a month). I've heard some rumours of > donated equipment waiting to be installed, but I don't know what the > status of that is. I've got a SPARC64 box sitting downstairs, waiting for me to install it. Actually, I've got four of them. I was planning on using one for FreeBSD support, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and one for Solaris. I was also thinking about using the OpenBSD/sparc64 box as a primary firewall (until I can get something better), but I imagine that NetBSD really doesn't need much more sparc64 support right now -- maybe I could reconsider using that one for sparc64 package support. > Likewise, a 5.2 i386 build takes about a week, which means that the > freeze *cannot* be shorter than this, even if everything goes > perfectly (which, in practise, never happens). This time around, the > freeze started on 23 Nov and was lifted on 3 Dec. That's 10 days, > which is about as good as you could hope for. If we could build > packages in - say - a day, we'd be able to cut the freeze time down > further, although I expect the duration would become limited by the > speed at which problems can be corrected. Sounds to me like a reliable RAM disk for temporary files would be very helpful. There are at least one or two PCI card models that I think can take up to 8GB, and which I know work with Linux. If they don't already work with FreeBSD, I would imagine it shouldn't take too much work to fix that. > Every now and then we get offers of access to a machine here or a > machine there to help with building packages. The main problem with > donating machine resources is that there's limited space in the > freebsd.org equipment racks, and the package build system currently > needs LAN-equivalent connectivity between the machines. To be useful > we'd either need a full cluster of faster machines located somewhere, > or to find time to rewrite the build scripts to work efficiently with > remote build resources. Hmm. I would seriously consider donating one or two sparc64 boxes to the project (once I confirm they work ;-), but I would want to make sure that there is space to support them. Otherwise, I would be willing to run them from my basement. Of course, that's precisely the problem you already have. I've done a bit of script hacking in the past. Do you have any idea what would be required to hack these scripts to suit? Alternatively, I might be able to get you some additional build resources somewhere else. In fact, I think this other place is probably already quite familiar with FreeBSD, and they might be surprised to hear about this need -- should I contact them? -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 08:37:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6D116A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EEE43D5A for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.1])i08GbUp6049426 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:37:30 +0100 (CET) X-Ids: 167 Received: from niobe (postfix@niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.41]) i08GbPl08545 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:37:25 +0100 Received: by niobe (Postfix, from userid 2005) id E62C4FD61; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:37:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:37:24 +0100 From: Michel TALON To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Miltered: at shiva.jussieu.fr by Joe's j-chkmail ("http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr")! X-Antivirus: scanned by sophie at shiva.jussieu.fr X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:11:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:37:43 -0000 > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. Sincerely FreeBSD developers have more important tasks than spending hours to fit an installable system on floppies. When FreeBSD used one floppy, it was tolerable to do floppy installs. With 2 or 3 floppies it is awfully slow, i have done once and will never do it again. There are so many workarounds for people who don't have a CD burner, including asking a friend to burn the CD, buying a cheap CD somewhere. For people who don't have a CD reader able to boot, the simplest solution by far is to remove the hard drive and install it on another machine, much faster than reading the 2 damned floppies :-) The technically dedicated people can also arrange a PXE boot which boots a live system, and then brutally install on hard disk bypassing the installer which is far from nice anyways. There are tons of ways of proceeding, including dd copying a series of identical disks for people who have to do large installs. By the way, what's the reason that it is impossible to have just one floppy which boots FreeBSD kernel, allows to see an unbootable cdrom and continue installation from here? During the holidays i have installed the Linux Knoppix distro this way on an old machine which doesn't allow to boot from CD. There is a 1.44M floppy image on the CD which allows to do just that. I am quite stunned that the same thing cannot be done for FreeBSD. -- Michel TALON From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:33:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B681216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.aueb.gr (hermes.aueb.gr [195.251.255.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C28443D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:33:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dds@aueb.gr) Received: from aueb.gr (faculty05.right.dialup.aueb.gr [195.251.255.249]) by hermes.aueb.gr (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i08MX8iC020842; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:33:09 +0200 Message-ID: <3FFDDA9C.3090507@aueb.gr> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:33:00 +0200 From: Diomidis Spinellis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, el, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brooks Davis References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> <20040108171108.GA6216@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3FFDC218.60607@aueb.gr> <20040108214954.GA16048@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> In-Reply-To: <20040108214954.GA16048@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:33:02 -0000 Brooks Davis wrote: > No, I mean a server. The hard part about using PXE to install a box is > setting up the other box to boot the box your are installing on. It's > not all the difficult, but it require a bit of knowledge, some grunt > work, and a reasionable UNIX-like machine to start from. What I propose > is adding enough stuff to disk 1 that you can do pxe installs like this: Nice idea! My mind was fixated on older machines that do not support PXE; as I always have a couple of FreeBSD servers around at work/home I failed to realise that setting up a PXE server could ever be a problem. Diomidis From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:37:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4046216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8028643D39 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 60219 invoked by uid 1002); 8 Jan 2004 22:37:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 8 Jan 2004 22:37:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFDDB7A.3000804@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:36:42 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108220249.GM48603@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20040108220249.GM48603@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:37:08 -0000 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:43:55AM -0700 I heard the voice of > Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > >>Well, regardless of how you label it, these floppies still require lots >>of care and feeding in order to work. We currently have no way to >>support multiple floppies in a convenient way. > > > My hope is that, with this piece taken care of, the amount of care and > feeding necessary to maintain it will be minimized. When adding new > drivers, you'd have to stick their names in a list somewhere to be split > out, but that's pretty minimal. It should help avoid all the juggling we > keep having to do to manage the size. > We already have this. It's at src/release/i386/drivers.conf. It can trivially be expanded to take care of more than just three floppies. However, the piece that is missing is the ability for 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc, floppies to be conveniently loaded and work seamlessly. Right now, the boot loader that comes on floppy on has some magic to ask the user for the second floppy, then load the mfsroot and .ko files off it automatically before the kernel boots. Unfortunatley, this magic is split between an interactive step in boot/loader.rc and a non-interactive step in the loader code. There is no easy way to expand this to handle multiple floppies; the non-interactive second step cannot recurse back to the interactive first step. The 3rd floppy is handled right now in a menu that is run when sysinstall starts. It's a nice menu; it gives you a list of the drivers on the floppy and asks which one you want to load. Unfortunately, there are two problems with this. The first is that it runs after the kernel has already booted, so SCSI devices that are handled by drivers on this floppy won't get probed. The second is that forcing the user to know which driver is appropriate for their hardware is not very good form. My preference would be to deprecate the sysinstall method and expand the boot loader to fully handle an arbitrary number of floppies. It would also be nice to build a method for manually excluding drivers that the user doesn't want to load. This would greatly help to support 3rd party vendor driver disks, something that SuSE and Redhat derive significant benefit from right now. > > >>This can be fixed in a variety of ways that range from fragile hacks to >>wonderful designs, but it still requires someone to put forth the >>effort. My offer for a 'floppy maintainer' is quite sincere; I hope >>that someone takes an interest and steps up to the challenge. > > > I have some interest in this, to be sure. However, every time I've > ventured into src/release/ in the past, I've come away with an intense > desire for absinthe. I've never successfully built a release, and it's > been my impression that you can't just build the floppies, you have to > build the full release to have everything in place to build them. That > takes a huge chunk of disk space (to say nothing of _TIME_! Just > building the kernel and modules takes the better part of a half hour), > which are two things in chronically short supply. > > There are several documents linked off of http://www.freebsd.org/releng that describe how to build a release. It's not nearly as arcane of a process as it used to be 5 years ago. The biggest barrier to entry is probably disk space. You'll need a good 5GB free to hold the CVS repo, chroot environment, and resulting bits. Yes, to build the floppies you need to build most of the release, but once you've built the release, you can back-step and rebuild the floppies at will. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:51:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B9D16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C84743D2D for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:51:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk ([195.188.15.48] helo=iconoplex.co.uk) by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Aej0O-000IpJ-8q for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:51:56 +0000 Message-ID: <3FFDDF09.80205@iconoplex.co.uk> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:51:53 +0000 From: Paul Robinson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: A way to clean up PRs? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:51:56 -0000 Just a thought: How about everything that hasn't been touched in 3 years gets put into a special state of "closed-believed-dead", everything over 12 months (or 6?) gets the same AFTER an e-mail has been sent out to the originator to see if the problem still exists? It's just that way, I think a lot of PRs for obsolete hardware and versions will get closed up, thereby making it easier for those of us trying to pick our way through and see what is still new and relevant and in need of some love and care and attention. If somebody still has the problem and it's an issue, it just gets a new PR that comes back on the top of the queue, it's live and we can deal with PRs as they come in. Thoughts? Just a thought that might help clean up the DB on an idle Thursday evening. I'm sure it's been thought of before. Automated PR purging - it's the future! :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 15:02:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AEA16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from shaft.techsupport.co.uk (shaft.techsupport.co.uk [212.250.77.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987F243D6B for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:02:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from cpc2-cdif3-6-0-cust204.cdif.cable.ntl.com ([81.103.67.204] helo=shrike.submonkey.net ident=mailnull) by shaft.techsupport.co.uk with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1AejAC-000GtY-0P; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:02:04 +0000 Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AejA6-000O95-9J; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:01:58 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:01:58 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Paul Robinson Message-ID: <20040108230158.GD8322@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Paul Robinson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <3FFDDF09.80205@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6FinHCQBQ0zFDOqT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFDDF09.80205@iconoplex.co.uk> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A way to clean up PRs? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:02:15 -0000 --6FinHCQBQ0zFDOqT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 10:51:53PM +0000, Paul Robinson wrote: > Just a thought: >=20 > How about everything that hasn't been touched in 3 years gets put into a= =20 > special state of "closed-believed-dead", everything over 12 months (or=20 > 6?) gets the same AFTER an e-mail has been sent out to the originator to= =20 > see if the problem still exists? >=20 > It's just that way, I think a lot of PRs for obsolete hardware and=20 > versions will get closed up, thereby making it easier for those of us=20 > trying to pick our way through and see what is still new and relevant=20 > and in need of some love and care and attention. If somebody still has=20 > the problem and it's an issue, it just gets a new PR that comes back on= =20 > the top of the queue, it's live and we can deal with PRs as they come in. >=20 > Thoughts? Just a thought that might help clean up the DB on an idle=20 > Thursday evening. I'm sure it's been thought of before. Well, here's a extract from a mail I sent to another non-committer interested in doing the same thing, about two days ago. Note that we do already timeout PRs in feedback after a period of time without a reply (currently 3 months). Also note that there's a bugbusters@ list where this kind of discussion should live, but I think I may be the only person subscribed (although rousing the list is really my responsibility, I've yet to think up a good enough scheme). Forwarded mail: Thanks for the offer of help. =09 Sending stuff to current could be considered useful, but committers interested in fixing bugs (which is hopefully all of them!) will all be subscribed to freebsd-bugs@, which means that by simply submitting a followup to the PR they'll get automatically notified. =09 There a few ways for non-committers to help out though: if you think that a PR can be closed, then submit a followup to the PR with the reason why, and include the string "This PR can be closed". The reason can be anything from "this isn't a problem on later releases", "this was fixed in revision x of src/foo/bar/quux.c" to "the user is at fault". =09 Just because a PR can't be closed though, if you have information to add to a PR (an updated patch, "cannot replicate here", etc.) then send it in as a followup. Of course, if you know of (or can code) a fix, send it! Ceri --=20 --6FinHCQBQ0zFDOqT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//eFmocfcwTS3JF8RAo0mAKC0u86BqAdzGBdcpmkytk93Ni4mbgCeMVrq 9ndGy7VU0ZLqBgHsZiFdSyQ= =zeA6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6FinHCQBQ0zFDOqT-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 15:10:47 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8C216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4570043D58 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 4BB465313; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:10:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id A091D5311; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:10:36 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6CD3B33C9A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:10:36 +0100 (CET) To: Paul Robinson References: <3FFDDF09.80205@iconoplex.co.uk> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:10:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3FFDDF09.80205@iconoplex.co.uk> (Paul Robinson's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:51:53 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A way to clean up PRs? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:10:47 -0000 Paul Robinson writes: > How about everything that hasn't been touched in 3 years gets put into > a special state of "closed-believed-dead", everything over 12 months > (or 6?) gets the same AFTER an e-mail has been sent out to the > originator to see if the problem still exists? The PR handling guidelines already address this. See section 4.3 in . DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 15:16:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A4416A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.XtremeDev.com (xtremedev.com [216.241.38.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FA343D5C for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:16:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsd@xtremedev.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.XtremeDev.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3B611A97; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:16:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from mail.XtremeDev.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Amber.XtremeDev.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 00628-04-2; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:16:28 -0700 (MST) Received: by mail.XtremeDev.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DA0BB11A5C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:16:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:16:28 -0700 From: BSD To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040108231628.GA9254@Amber.XtremeDev.com> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108143934.GA51446@ussenterprise.ufp.org> <20040108153610.GW53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108221038.GN48603@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108221038.GN48603@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at xtremedev.com Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:16:32 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 04:10:38PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 07:36:10AM -0800 I heard the voice of > Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > If I understand you right.. > > A floppy boot, which loads the absolutely basic stuff (network drivers, > > and some easy way to config the network) and then goes and grabs the > > installer would otherwise be on the current floppies and "boots" it? > > Many (most?) Linux dists do this for floppy installs. I've come around > to thinking it a better and better idea lately. It makes it easy to have > much more bloa... er, "featureful" installers, particularly more > graphical ones, since you're no longer limited by the size of a floppy. > And even cheap DSL is faster than a floppy drive for loading it, to boot > (no pun ;). And you can even provide for loading it off a local CD, if > you have a CD drive you can't boot from. > > The downside is that writing such a beast is a lot more work... Take what I'm babbling about with a huge grain of salt, since I probably have no idea what I'm talking about... How hard would it be to take something like etherboot and building a single install floppy from that? And have a FreeBSD kernel/installer hosted on a public nfs/tftp server? Ie., the user pops in the etherboot floppy, it asks for network setup info, we tell it to use ftp.freebsd.org, and it goes out and either nfs mounts or tftp the kernel and installer and drivers. Then proceed from there to installing FreeBSD onto the system. I suppose that's what you just said.. But was just thinking that it'd be easier modifying an existing system (ie., etherboot) than writing one from scratch.. Note: I just mentioned etherboot because that was the first thing that came to mind. I'm sure there are other systems better suited or licensed for what's needed. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 15:26:45 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA82A16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bogslab.ucdavis.edu (bogslab.ucdavis.edu [169.237.68.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E5343D49 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:26:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greg@bogslab.ucdavis.edu) Received: from thistle.bogs.org (thistle.bogs.org [198.137.203.61]) by bogslab.ucdavis.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i08NQgKO012331 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from thistle.bogs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thistle.bogs.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i08NYMx86020 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greg@thistle.bogs.org) Message-Id: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> To: hackers@freebsd.org X-To: Michel TALON X-Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:37:24 +0100." <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:34:22 -0800 From: Greg Shenaut Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: gkshenaut@ucdavis.edu List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:26:45 -0000 In nuntio <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr>, Michel TALON divulgat: >By the way, what's the reason that it is impossible to have just one >floppy which boots FreeBSD kernel, allows to see an unbootable cdrom >and continue installation from here? I agree. The boot floppy tries to do w a y too much. I think we should think of the boot floppy as way to implement an old-style console emulator: it "boots" and you tell it where to read the *real* boot image from. It should support all of the usual sources: CDs/DVDs, NFS mounts, FTP, and so on. The real boot image would know how to format drives, install distributions & packages, and so on. This "boot console" floppy would only need to change to support new hardware, and there could even be boot-source-specific versions of it. Once you had one that worked on a specific type of PC, you could keep using it indefinitely. Greg Shenaut From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 15:32:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC2D16A4D0; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:32:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F95A43D4C; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0F2153D0; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:32:53 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 9043120F2A; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:32:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:32:51 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040108233251.GP48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108220249.GM48603@over-yonder.net> <3FFDDB7A.3000804@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFDDB7A.3000804@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:32:57 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 03:36:42PM -0700 I heard the voice of Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > > Unfortunately, there are two problems with this. Now, > The first is that it runs after the kernel has already booted, so SCSI > devices that are handled by drivers on this floppy won't get probed. This I hadn't known. Why is that? I thought when you loaded a module it pulled up the driver and probed the hardware, which included scanning any busses on it. > The second is that forcing the user to know which driver is appropriate > for their hardware is not very good form. This is one of those things I list under the category of "letting floppy installs be a bit ugly, or 'experienced-users only'-labelled". > There are several documents linked off of http://www.freebsd.org/releng > that describe how to build a release. It's not nearly as arcane of a > process as it used to be 5 years ago. The biggest barrier to entry is > probably disk space. You'll need a good 5GB free to hold the CVS repo, > chroot environment, and resulting bits. Well, I've got the CVS repo, though boy, has *THAT* ever grown since I built this system; I had to trim it down to only src and ports, and even so: /dev/da1s1e 2032623 1769089 100925 95% /usr/cvs Of course, I left out the ports and docs parts of the release last time I tried (which was in fact about 5 years ago ;), though I had all kinda of troubles with parts of THAT, too. But still, I don't have even a tenth that much hard drive space around. > Yes, to build the floppies you need to build most of the release, but > once you've built the release, you can back-step and rebuild the > floppies at will. And building the whole release is quite an ordeal on a Pentium Pro :) Still, I'm willing to donate some time and brain to the problem, since apparently I kinda care about it. It seems to me that the probing problem above is the biggest problem from a real coding POV; the rest is mostly just a whole heck of a lot of implementation, and "inconvenience" from the usability standpoint. That's a breaking point. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 14:21:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B281D16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDA743D1F; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 14:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from welchsm@earthlink.net) Received: from statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.78.21]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AeiX2-0006fb-00; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 14:21:36 -0800 Message-ID: <26242569.1073600495978.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:21:35 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Sean Welch To: dyeske@yahoo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:39:14 -0800 cc: joe@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org Subject: Re: LG 5350 cell phone X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sean Welch List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:21:40 -0000 I don't know if anyone is still interested in this topic or not but I just made some progress today (got sick of not being able to use my straight through USB cable with FreeBSD). Here's what I've got at the moment under 4.9-RELEASE. I went tracing through /usr/src/sys/dev/usb/umodem.c (good old printf statements) to see what exactly it was that was causing the "reboots" of my cellphone. I came to the conclusion that it probably wasn't something in umodem.c that needed tweaking so I went nosing around in /usr/src/sys/dev/usb/usbdevs again. As the phone doesn't start misbehaving until umodem attempts to attach to it I was able to just leave it at ugen0 and ask usbdevs for the vendor and product codes (usbdevs -v). I put those into usbdevs and the diff looks like this: *** usbdevs.orig Tue Sep 2 09:35:17 2003 --- usbdevs Thu Jan 8 15:12:03 2004 *************** *** 341,346 **** --- 341,347 ---- vendor AGATE 0x0c08 Agate Technologies vendor DMI 0x0c0b DMI vendor LUWEN 0x0c76 Luwen + vendor QUALCOMM 0x1004 Qualcomm vendor MOTOROLA 0x1063 Motorola vendor PLX 0x10b5 PLX vendor ASANTE 0x10bd Asante *************** *** 648,653 **** --- 649,657 ---- /* Fujitsu protducts */ product FUJITSU AH_F401U 0x105b AH-F401U Air H device + + /* Qualcomm products */ + product QUALCOMM CDMA_MSM 0x6000 CDMA Technologies MSM phone /* General Instruments (Motorola) products */ product GENERALINSTMNTS SB5100 0x5100 SURFboard SB5100 Cable modem Having been down this route before without success (usbdevs itself notes that simply adding IDs does not add any functionality at all) and noticing a call to /usr/src/sys/dev/usb/usb_quirks.c from umodem.c during initialization I took a look over there and added this: *** usb_quirks.c.orig Wed Feb 12 08:05:57 2003 --- usb_quirks.c Thu Jan 8 16:03:35 2004 *************** *** 83,88 **** --- 83,90 ---- { USB_VENDOR_HP, USB_PRODUCT_HP_815C, ANY, { UQ_BROKEN_BIDIR }}, { USB_VENDOR_HP, USB_PRODUCT_HP_810C, ANY, { UQ_BROKEN_BIDIR }}, { USB_VENDOR_HP, USB_PRODUCT_HP_830C, ANY, { UQ_BROKEN_BIDIR }}, + { USB_VENDOR_QUALCOMM, USB_PRODUCT_QUALCOMM_CDMA_MSM, + ANY, { UQ_ASSUME_CM_OVER_DATA}}, /* YAMAHA router's ucdDevice is the version of farmware and often changes. */ { USB_VENDOR_YAMAHA, USB_PRODUCT_YAMAHA_RTA54I, ANY, { UQ_ASSUME_CM_OVER_DATA }}, After compiling a new kernel with these changes incorporated (don't forget to run a make -f Makefile.usbdevs if you've got old kernel compile stuff still around!!!) I now can use the phone as a modem!!! I can set the speed up to 230400 (matching the setting indicated in the phone's menu) and the transfer speeds are every bit as good as on the iBook now. This is what dmesg now reports: umodem0: Qualcomm CDMA Technologies MSM phone, rev 1.01/0.00, addr 2, iclass 2/2 umodem0: data interface 1, has CM over data, has break The only issue remaining is when I try to bring the connection down. When I do this ppp reports: Warning: deflink: Unable to set physical to speed 0 and on the console I see this: putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks putc to a clist with no reserved cblocks These messages appear to be harmless (ppp is down now and I can reestablish a connection without problem), but obviously it isn't the best behaved. Would anyone care to chip in with suggestions and/or advice? Sean > Delivered-To: freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 19:52:36 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Yeske > To: Josef Karthauser , Sean_Welch@alum.wofford.org > In-Reply-To: <20030611224338.GA10822@genius.tao.org.uk> > Cc: dyeske@yahoo.com > Cc: current@freebsd.org > Cc: mobile@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: LG 5350 cell phone > X-BeenThere: freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 > Precedence: list > List-Id: Mobile computing with FreeBSD > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Errors-To: owner-freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org > > Should this get a new vendor entry in usbdevs? > > --- Josef Karthauser wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2003 at 01:05:00PM -0500, Sean Welch wrote: > > > I have this phone myself. I have two adapters for it -- one is > > > a serial cable the other a "true" (as in no serial to usb > > > conversion box in the middle) usb cable. > > > > > > The phone works great under FreeBSD on the serial cable (normal > > > Hayes modem type at commands work fine), but no version of > > > FreeBSD has worked with the usb cable so far. I tried 4.8, > > > 5.0-RELEASE, and a few versions of 5.x-CURRENT. The phone is > > > quite usable from my iBook so the cable isn't the issue (the > > > iBook reports it as a Qualcomm -- which is what the sticker > > > says too). I see the message you do, but when I try to use > > > umodem with it the phone continuously "reboots" itself until > > > detached. > > > > > > I tried something along the lines of what you did to usbdevs > > > a while back but didn't get any improvement. > > > > > > The connection is appreciably faster over the usb port with > > > the "true" cable when compared to the serial cable; it would > > > be very nice to use it this way on FreeBSD... > > > > > > Sean > > > > > Maybe the phone doesn't identify itself as a usb modem class, instead > > relying on a vendor driver. > > > > An easy project for someone would be to write a general usb querying > > tool for displaying the classes, etc that a usb device supports. > > I've got code kicking around, mostly from Nick Hibma, but I never got > > around to finishing it off. > > > > Joe > > -- > > Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ > > FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ > > Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ > > ================ An eclectic mix of fact and theory. ================= > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-mobile > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-mobile-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 16:36:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF96716A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-67-119-53-122.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [67.119.53.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EB843D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7A90B66E67; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:36:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:36:30 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040109003630.GA63979@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040108071730.GA53328@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040108173642.GS54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108173642.GS54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 16:39:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:36:35 -0000 --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 06:36:42PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > # kris@obsecurity.org / 2004-01-07 23:17:31 -0800: > > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 09:08:38PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > >=20 > > > The ports freeze seems to last too long with recent releses. Or > > > maybe it's just I've gotten more involved, but out of the last fo= ur > > > months (2003/09/07-today), ports tree has been completely open > > > for whopping 28 days. > >=20 > > That might be technically true, but it's misleading and doesn't > > support the point you're trying to make. During this period the ports > > collection has only been frozen for a couple of weeks, and the > > majority of commit activities were not restricted for the rest of the > > period in question. >=20 > That might be technically true, but the precise semantics of > "(semi-)freeze" aren't as widely known as you seem to think. > E. g. yesterday or today I received an email from a committer in > response to my two mails to ports@ (the first urging a repocopy > requested in a PR some time ago, the other retracting the request > because of the freeze) saying (paraphrased) "to my surprise I was > told repocopies are allowed during freeze". Some people just prefer > to err on the safe side. Repo-copies are not allowed during the freeze, but are any other time. > > > Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the forme= r) > > > leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this > > > rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) > >=20 > > I would have thought the procedure to rectify this would be obvious: >=20 > The procedure really is obvious, but there's only so much time in a > day. >=20 > Also, I would have thought the Porter's handbook would e. g. contain > info on preventing installation of .la files (I gathered from the > ports@ list that they shouldn't be installed), isn't this lack quite > obvious? No, please raise this on the ports list. Kris --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//feOWry0BWjoQKURAm4aAKCrt+w5+VVrlF2blvtk2AkxJdcDagCgms7A +sReGul/MIFTzxWr9tTnU6o= =g9VP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 19:30:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BDC16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:30:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6EB43D58; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i093UiZC016662; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:00:44 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i093UfaW012926; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:00:42 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Avleen Vig , Scott Long Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:00:40 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> In-Reply-To: <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -4.2 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_05_08,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:30:50 -0000 On Thursday 08 January 2004 18:20, Avleen Vig wrote: > I understand it is difficult to maintain the floppies. I wish I > understood them better :-) Is it not possible to have "ftp install" > floppies, which do nothing more than simple FTP installations? It wouldn't make it any easier. You still need the right drivers, ie which SCSI controller/network/... cards you have to get a minimal install is _more_ when you are doing FTP (you need a network). I think one possibility that wasn't mentioned is to have a floppy maintainer that generates several sets of floppies that are used for non-CD booting/no-CD installs which are available via download, and some are chucked on the CD. ie make it a separate part of the release, so it is not directly the install team's job. This would mean that the default 'make release' produces no floppy images. Instead they are built separately and bundled with 'official' releases. It would even be (fairly trivially) possible to setup a web site where you select what cards you want support for and it makes a floppy image for you. Even just having a page which tells you want card needs what KLD and where to get the KLD's would help, as you could download them on your and put them on floppy yourself. Scott also said stuff like SCSI cards won't get probed if a module is loaded but I can't see why that is true.. The module will load, the device get detected, and then sysinstall is told to reprobe the hardware, so it should pick it up. I see the 'which kld goes with what device' problem as separate to this issue. The KLD load stuff DOES show a small description for each KLD so it isn't a total black box, and heck, you can just pick everything and cross your fingers :) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 19:34:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C8616A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA93E43D45 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:34:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i093YbqR023545; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:04:38 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i093YZaW012942; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:04:36 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: gkshenaut@ucdavis.edu, Greg Shenaut , hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:04:34 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> In-Reply-To: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091404.34083.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -4.7 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 03:34:52 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 10:04, Greg Shenaut wrote: > In nuntio <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr>, Michel TALON divulgat: > >By the way, what's the reason that it is impossible to have just one > >floppy which boots FreeBSD kernel, allows to see an unbootable cdrom > >and continue installation from here? > > I agree. The boot floppy tries to do w a y too much. I think we > should think of the boot floppy as way to implement an old-style > console emulator: it "boots" and you tell it where to read the > *real* boot image from. It should support all of the usual sources: > CDs/DVDs, NFS mounts, FTP, and so on. *How* does it support all of those sources? CD/DVD drives need drivers (ATA optimisticly, but quite possibly SCSI), FTP/NFS need network card support, NFS needs nfsclient.ko ie this is the exact problem it has now :) You could save a little space with your idea because you wouldn't need sysinstall which is admittedly quite large, but it wouldn't address the fundamental issue. If you want floppy installs you need a way of putting arbitary drivers onto floppy disks easily so users can grab what they need and use it instead of having to second guess what sort of hardware they are likely to be using. IMHO of course 8-) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 20:30:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF8916A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F33A43D58 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:30:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists-freebsd@silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AeoHp-000K9Q-HV; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 20:30:17 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:30:17 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Daniel O'Connor Message-ID: <20040109043017.GM53429@silverwraith.com> References: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> <200401091404.34083.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401091404.34083.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Greg Shenaut Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:30:28 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 02:04:34PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > *How* does it support all of those sources? > CD/DVD drives need drivers (ATA optimisticly, but quite possibly SCSI), > FTP/NFS need network card support, NFS needs nfsclient.ko > ie this is the exact problem it has now :) > You could save a little space with your idea because you wouldn't need > sysinstall which is admittedly quite large, but it wouldn't address the > fundamental issue. > If you want floppy installs you need a way of putting arbitary drivers onto > floppy disks easily so users can grab what they need and use it instead of > having to second guess what sort of hardware they are likely to be using. > IMHO of course 8-) Now you've got me thinking. A simple website which lets you choose what drivers you want (anyone seen the .muttrc config page? :) That should be really easy to do with a little perl CGI. I might take a crack at this in the next week or so. -- Avleen Vig Systems Administrator Personal: www.silverwraith.com EFnet: irc.mindspring.com (Earthlink user access only) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 20:39:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231FA16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1669143D48; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:39:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i094dFET091557; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:39:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:39:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> To: underway@comcast.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:39:21 -0000 In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : "M. Warner Losh" writes: : : > Ryan Sommers writes: : > : Something like this might also jeopardize the : > : project's "not for profit" status. : > : > The project is not a legally incorporated entity at this time, and : > never has been in the past. : : And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD : Project" It is a psudonymous work by The FreeBSD Project. : and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for : "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.) That should be changed. : I've not seen a US statute about : false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all : intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some : trademark statements. No, the above is perfectly legal under US and International Copyright law. : The "Legal" page could tell about using CVS to : determine who owns what so they can be tracked down and asked if the : copyright page is correct about what license they've got it under. :) That's likely overkill, but might not be a bad idea. : Whether the project is "for profit" depends upon the definition, if : the project is claiming copyright ownership, because gains of : intellectual property is considered (by US copyright law, at least) to : be a financial gain. But lots of organizations, formal and informal, : have financial gains without problems with being considered "for : profit", so if someone sees "for profit" problems, they should be : specific about what the problems might be. For profit or not is irrelvant, given that there's no legally incorporated entity for the project. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 20:58:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8728016A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CCE43D54 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:58:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i094wEqR048489; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:14 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i094wCaW013665; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:12 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Avleen Vig Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:11 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> <200401091404.34083.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040109043017.GM53429@silverwraith.com> In-Reply-To: <20040109043017.GM53429@silverwraith.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091528.11903.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -5 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Greg Shenaut Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:58:22 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 15:00, Avleen Vig wrote: > > onto floppy disks easily so users can grab what they need and use it > > instead of having to second guess what sort of hardware they are likely > > to be using. IMHO of course 8-) > > Now you've got me thinking. > A simple website which lets you choose what drivers you want (anyone > seen the .muttrc config page? :) > That should be really easy to do with a little perl CGI. > I might take a crack at this in the next week or so. Yep, I suspect mtools is the easiest way to do this.. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 21:18:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3108316A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA4643D45 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:18:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists-freebsd@silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Aep2a-000KUy-R6; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:18:36 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:18:36 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Daniel O'Connor Message-ID: <20040109051836.GN53429@silverwraith.com> References: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> <200401091404.34083.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040109043017.GM53429@silverwraith.com> <200401091528.11903.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401091528.11903.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:18:38 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 03:28:11PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Friday 09 January 2004 15:00, Avleen Vig wrote: > > > onto floppy disks easily so users can grab what they need and use it > > > instead of having to second guess what sort of hardware they are likely > > > to be using. IMHO of course 8-) > > > > Now you've got me thinking. > > A simple website which lets you choose what drivers you want (anyone > > seen the .muttrc config page? :) > > That should be really easy to do with a little perl CGI. > > I might take a crack at this in the next week or so. > > Yep, > I suspect mtools is the easiest way to do this.. Something that was suggested in #FreeBSDHelp on EFnet just now: sysinstall already has the ability to dynamically load modules. If this is the case, I don't see where the "problem" is. Make the kernel on the floppy disk have few/no drivers built in, and have then all loaded from a third disk. Have the third disk generated dynamically from say, a website? From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 21:32:04 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0620216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp3.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3068E43D41 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i095W0qR096624; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:02:00 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i095VwaW013948; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:01:59 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Avleen Vig Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:01:57 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> <200401091528.11903.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040109051836.GN53429@silverwraith.com> In-Reply-To: <20040109051836.GN53429@silverwraith.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091601.57268.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -5 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:32:04 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 15:48, Avleen Vig wrote: > > Yep, > > I suspect mtools is the easiest way to do this.. > > Something that was suggested in #FreeBSDHelp on EFnet just now: > sysinstall already has the ability to dynamically load modules. > If this is the case, I don't see where the "problem" is. > Make the kernel on the floppy disk have few/no drivers built in, and > have then all loaded from a third disk. > Have the third disk generated dynamically from say, a website? Yeah, that was similar to what I was thinking. You could just get it to make a zip for you to put on a floppy after you select your hardware from a list. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:04:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA3216A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0AD443D1F for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 90628 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 07:04:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 07:04:20 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:02:41 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:04:25 -0000 Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Thursday 08 January 2004 18:20, Avleen Vig wrote: > >>I understand it is difficult to maintain the floppies. I wish I >>understood them better :-) Is it not possible to have "ftp install" >>floppies, which do nothing more than simple FTP installations? > > > It wouldn't make it any easier. > > You still need the right drivers, ie which SCSI controller/network/... cards > you have to get a minimal install is _more_ when you are doing FTP (you need > a network). > > I think one possibility that wasn't mentioned is to have a floppy maintainer > that generates several sets of floppies that are used for non-CD > booting/no-CD installs which are available via download, and some are chucked > on the CD. ie make it a separate part of the release, so it is not directly > the install team's job. > > This would mean that the default 'make release' produces no floppy images. > Instead they are built separately and bundled with 'official' releases. It > would even be (fairly trivially) possible to setup a web site where you > select what cards you want support for and it makes a floppy image for you. > Even just having a page which tells you want card needs what KLD and where to > get the KLD's would help, as you could download them on your and > put them on floppy yourself. > > Scott also said stuff like SCSI cards won't get probed if a module is loaded > but I can't see why that is true.. The module will load, the device get > detected, and then sysinstall is told to reprobe the hardware, so it should > pick it up. > Incorrect. Scanning SCSI buses is something that does not happen automatically. There is magic in the boot process that makes it happen near the end, right before the kernel looks for the root device. However, that is the exception to the rule. If you load a SCSI driver after the kernel has booted, the SCSI channel behind it will _not_ be probed automatically. Trust me on this one. Fixing this particular problem is well beyond the scope of fixing floppies in general. Until it gets fixed, floppies will just have to deal with it. > I see the 'which kld goes with what device' problem as separate to this issue. > The KLD load stuff DOES show a small description for each KLD so it isn't a > total black box, and heck, you can just pick everything and cross your > fingers :) > Take something like the if_dc(4) driver. It covers literally _dozens_ of cards and chips, all under different brands and manufacturers. There is no way that a single line description file will tell you if your hardware is supported by the if_dc driver. But this is a minor nit. As I've stated before, loading kernel modules after the kernel has booted is the wrong time to do it. The loader needs to be enhanced to be able to take care of this. Once that happens, we can trivially modify the release scripts to allow an arbitrary number of driver floppies to be created, and the maintenance nightmare goes away for the most part. Well, except when mfsroot.gz becomes too large to fit on a single floppy. Right now it is about 90k away from that. What happens when mount_nfsv4 gets put on there? John Baldwin and I already spent a day over the holiday break making the mfsroot.gz image fit given the new requirements created by having a dynamic root. What happens the next time that it overflows? It's not like the driver floppies where you can dike more stuff to another disk; this is a single image. Do we come up with a method for having multiple, segmented images? Who writes the code to do that? If we are going to keep floppies, then we need people who are willing to tackle these issues and keep them under control. Scott Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:21:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB86B16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BD843D45; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:21:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i097L3ZC071602; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:51:03 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i097L0aW014875; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:51:01 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Scott Long Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:50:59 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091750.59133.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -6.6 () EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:21:09 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 17:32, Scott Long wrote: > > Scott also said stuff like SCSI cards won't get probed if a module is > > loaded but I can't see why that is true.. The module will load, the > > device get detected, and then sysinstall is told to reprobe the hardware, > > so it should pick it up. > > Incorrect. Scanning SCSI buses is something that does not happen > automatically. There is magic in the boot process that makes it happen > near the end, right before the kernel looks for the root device. > However, that is the exception to the rule. If you load a SCSI driver > after the kernel has booted, the SCSI channel behind it will _not_ be > probed automatically. Trust me on this one. Fixing this particular > problem is well beyond the scope of fixing floppies in general. Until > it gets fixed, floppies will just have to deal with it. Yech sucky :( > > I see the 'which kld goes with what device' problem as separate to this > > issue. The KLD load stuff DOES show a small description for each KLD so > > it isn't a total black box, and heck, you can just pick everything and > > cross your fingers :) > > Take something like the if_dc(4) driver. It covers literally _dozens_ > of cards and chips, all under different brands and manufacturers. There > is no way that a single line description file will tell you if your > hardware is supported by the if_dc driver. But this is a minor nit. Yes.. > As I've stated before, loading kernel modules after the kernel has > booted is the wrong time to do it. The loader needs to be enhanced to > be able to take care of this. Once that happens, we can trivially > modify the release scripts to allow an arbitrary number of driver > floppies to be created, and the maintenance nightmare goes away for > the most part. I don't necessarily agree here - I think sysinstall is a better place because it's much much easier to write stuff for it than the loader. In the example you mention the only reason to use the loader is because the SCSI subsystem won't reprobe when a new SCSI bus comes online which sounds like a bug. BTW Does camcontrol rescan cause the devices to be detected? Perhaps sysinstall could be "enhanced" to perform this duty as part of it's reprobe machinations. > Well, except when mfsroot.gz becomes too large to fit on a single > floppy. Right now it is about 90k away from that. What happens when > mount_nfsv4 gets put on there? John Baldwin and I already spat ent a > day over the holiday break making the mfsroot.gz image fit given the > new requirements created by having a dynamic root. What happens the > next time that it overflows? It's not like the driver floppies where > you can dike more stuff to another disk; this is a single image. Do > we come up with a method for having multiple, segmented images? Who > writes the code to do that? > > If we are going to keep floppies, then we need people who are willing to > tackle these issues and keep them under control. I agree with that! :) However, given your example above, I would just put mount_nfsv4 on another floppy, although if sysinstall (or it's replacement) is too large, there will need to be the ability to load N floppy images into memory. However they're issues for floppy users ;) -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:25:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF2E16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (reverse-213-146-113-119.dialin.kamp-dsl.de [213.146.113.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEAD43D6E; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicolas@dauerreden.de) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (nicolas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i097PpR7075095; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:25:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas@pc5.i.0x5.de) Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i097Ppl5075094; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:25:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:25:51 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040109072551.GA74970@pc5.i.0x5.de> Mail-Followup-To: Scott Long , Daniel O'Connor , hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-SECURITY: Never trust a running system User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:25:58 -0000 * Scott Long [2004-01-09 00:02 -0700]: > Well, except when mfsroot.gz becomes too large to fit on a single > floppy. Right now it is about 90k away from that. What happens when > mount_nfsv4 gets put on there? John Baldwin and I already spent a > day over the holiday break making the mfsroot.gz image fit given the > new requirements created by having a dynamic root. What happens the > next time that it overflows? It's not like the driver floppies where > you can dike more stuff to another disk; this is a single image. Do > we come up with a method for having multiple, segmented images? Who > writes the code to do that? Shouldn't lib/libstand/splitfs.c do this? Nicolas From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:49:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F5016A4D2; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B65243D53; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:49:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5ED11522C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:49:51 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 8B51F20F2A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:49:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:49:49 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Daniel O'Connor Message-ID: <20040109074948.GQ48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <200401091750.59133.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401091750.59133.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:49:56 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 05:50:59PM +1030 I heard the voice of Daniel O'Connor, and lo! it spake thus: > > I don't necessarily agree here - I think sysinstall is a better place because > it's much much easier to write stuff for it than the loader. In the example > you mention the only reason to use the loader is because the SCSI subsystem > won't reprobe when a new SCSI bus comes online which sounds like a bug. Indeed. I think it's actually (specifically and as a class) the sort of bug/feature that very much impacts on the floppy situation, since it prevents us from using an otherwise open road to move stuff around. Even if we have to write some code in sysinstall or its successors to trigger the rescan from userland (ie, the 'camcontrol rescan' point), I think that's a reasonable road (and likely the easier way). But that's a bit out of my depth. > > Well, except when mfsroot.gz becomes too large to fit on a single > > floppy. Right now it is about 90k away from that. What happens when > > mount_nfsv4 gets put on there? John Baldwin and I already spat ent a > > day over the holiday break making the mfsroot.gz image fit given the > > new requirements created by having a dynamic root. > > However, given your example above, I would just put mount_nfsv4 on another > floppy, although if sysinstall (or it's replacement) is too large, there will > need to be the ability to load N floppy images into memory. This is that situation where the "fetch installer program thingy from install media on the fly" solution comes into play. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:50:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471BC16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C0DC43D53 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:50:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 92030 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 07:50:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 07:50:34 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFE5CE7.6010708@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:48:55 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <200401091750.59133.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> In-Reply-To: <200401091750.59133.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:50:40 -0000 Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Friday 09 January 2004 17:32, Scott Long wrote: > > >>>Scott also said stuff like SCSI cards won't get probed if a module is >>>loaded but I can't see why that is true.. The module will load, the >>>device get detected, and then sysinstall is told to reprobe the hardware, >>>so it should pick it up. >> >>Incorrect. Scanning SCSI buses is something that does not happen >>automatically. There is magic in the boot process that makes it happen >>near the end, right before the kernel looks for the root device. >>However, that is the exception to the rule. If you load a SCSI driver >>after the kernel has booted, the SCSI channel behind it will _not_ be >>probed automatically. Trust me on this one. Fixing this particular >>problem is well beyond the scope of fixing floppies in general. Until >>it gets fixed, floppies will just have to deal with it. > > > Yech sucky :( > > >>>I see the 'which kld goes with what device' problem as separate to this >>>issue. The KLD load stuff DOES show a small description for each KLD so >>>it isn't a total black box, and heck, you can just pick everything and >>>cross your fingers :) >> >>Take something like the if_dc(4) driver. It covers literally _dozens_ >>of cards and chips, all under different brands and manufacturers. There >>is no way that a single line description file will tell you if your >>hardware is supported by the if_dc driver. But this is a minor nit. > > > Yes.. > > >>As I've stated before, loading kernel modules after the kernel has >>booted is the wrong time to do it. The loader needs to be enhanced to >>be able to take care of this. Once that happens, we can trivially >>modify the release scripts to allow an arbitrary number of driver >>floppies to be created, and the maintenance nightmare goes away for >>the most part. > > > I don't necessarily agree here - I think sysinstall is a better place because > it's much much easier to write stuff for it than the loader. In the example > you mention the only reason to use the loader is because the SCSI subsystem > won't reprobe when a new SCSI bus comes online which sounds like a bug. > One thing that FreeBSD _sorely_ lacks is the ability to easily use vendor-supplied driver disks. It is not unusual for a vendor to want to replace a buggy/incomplete driver that is in the base system with one that is better. This is incredibly difficult to do in FreeBSD; some drivers cannot be unloaded after being loaded, some drivers are compiled into the kernel for space considerations. If we design a mice interface for handling module loading/unload, multiple floppies, etc, in the boot-loader, then we solve this problem. Btw, I speak of this first-hand; not having a vendor-friendly method for updating drivers makes FreeBSD very, very hard to support, which means that FreeBSD is less likely to receive support. > BTW Does camcontrol rescan cause the devices to be detected? Perhaps > sysinstall could be "enhanced" to perform this duty as part of it's reprobe > machinations. > See my comment about blowing out the mfsroot.gz file. If you're not careful with this one then you'll wind up pulling in libcam, which will certainly create a size problem. Don't forget that some driver modules live on the same floppy as mfsroot.gz. Any increase in here means that another driver doesn't fit there and has to go somewhere else. > >>Well, except when mfsroot.gz becomes too large to fit on a single >>floppy. Right now it is about 90k away from that. What happens when >>mount_nfsv4 gets put on there? John Baldwin and I already spat ent a >>day over the holiday break making the mfsroot.gz image fit given the >>new requirements created by having a dynamic root. What happens the >>next time that it overflows? It's not like the driver floppies where >>you can dike more stuff to another disk; this is a single image. Do >>we come up with a method for having multiple, segmented images? Who >>writes the code to do that? >> >>If we are going to keep floppies, then we need people who are willing to >>tackle these issues and keep them under control. > > > I agree with that! :) > > However, given your example above, I would just put mount_nfsv4 on another > floppy, although if sysinstall (or it's replacement) is too large, there will > need to be the ability to load N floppy images into memory. Sysinstall is based on the concept that the root filesystem is populated with all of the tools that it needs. It has no concept of looking at other media/filesystems for tools. So, who is going to teach it how to do this? I personally think that this would be a hack anyways. If we need to support an mfsroot.gz that is too big for a single floppy, then we need to invent a way to span it across multiple floppies, not randomly put the tools individually onto whatever floppy isn't full this week. If we are going to do the work to keep floppies, then we need to put in a little effort to do it right and not turn it into a collection of miserable hacks (not more than it already is). Anyways, I've debated this as much as I can. I'm looking forward to someone stepping forward that can demonstrate their commitment and desire to taking care of the release floppies. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 00:04:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE5716A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from stud.alakhawayn.ma (stud.alakhawayn.ma [193.194.63.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C2043D4C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from 001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma) Received: from localhost (001VA36979@localhost) by stud.alakhawayn.ma (8.9.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA27624 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:58:48 GMT Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:58:48 +0000 (GMT) From: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:04:40 -0000 Anyone help me how to untar a file with this extention file.tar.bz2 ? Thanks, From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 00:54:20 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB5216A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from stud.alakhawayn.ma (stud.alakhawayn.ma [193.194.63.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D370143D1D for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from 001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma) Received: from localhost (001VA36979@localhost) by stud.alakhawayn.ma (8.9.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA28339 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:48:37 GMT Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:48:37 +0000 (GMT) From: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040109075119.5CC1D16A4D3@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:54:20 -0000 I have a problem when recompiling my Unix Kernel. I want to enable ipchains modules. Besides this anyone can help me with a detailed docs to use Divert-Sockets to intercept and inject Packets? Thanks, From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:07:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6F016A544; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391D343D41; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 70D88531B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:07:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id AF541531A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:07:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 56F6533C9A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:07:01 +0100 (CET) To: Scott Long References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:07:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> (Scott Long's message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2004 00:02:41 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:07:12 -0000 Scott Long writes: > Incorrect. Scanning SCSI buses is something that does not happen > automatically. There is magic in the boot process that makes it happen > near the end, right before the kernel looks for the root device. > However, that is the exception to the rule. If you load a SCSI driver > after the kernel has booted, the SCSI channel behind it will _not_ be > probed automatically. 'camcontrol rescan all' > Take something like the if_dc(4) driver. It covers literally _dozens_ > of cards and chips, all under different brands and manufacturers. There > is no way that a single line description file will tell you if your > hardware is supported by the if_dc driver. But this is a minor nit. 1) keep drivers for ISA devices in the kernel 2) use pciconf -l (or direct access to /dev/pci) to retrieve the PCI IDs of unclaimed devices, look them up in a list of supported PCI devices, and load the appropriate module. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:22:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D7C16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFE843D46; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B241522C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:22:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 173C220F2F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:21:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:21:58 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040109092158.GR48603@over-yonder.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <200401091750.59133.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5CE7.6010708@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFE5CE7.6010708@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:22:03 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 12:48:55AM -0700 I heard the voice of Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >BTW Does camcontrol rescan cause the devices to be detected? Perhaps > >sysinstall could be "enhanced" to perform this duty as part of it's > >reprobe machinations. > > See my comment about blowing out the mfsroot.gz file. If you're not > careful with this one then you'll wind up pulling in libcam, which will > certainly create a size problem. # $FreeBSD: src/release/i386/boot_crunch.conf,v 1.56 2003/01/23 08:30:47 ru Exp $ [...] progs [...] camcontrol [...] libs [...] -lcam [...] -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:25:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F3416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from tatiana.utanet.at (tatiana.utanet.at [213.90.36.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032BA43D1F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from paris.utanet.at ([213.90.36.7]) by tatiana.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aessj-0007Vc-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:24:41 +0100 Received: from dsl-21-113.utaonline.at ([81.189.21.113] helo=jenny.daemon.li) by paris.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aessh-00033u-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:24:39 +0100 Received: by jenny.daemon.li (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 689B02F2; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:24:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:24:44 +0100 From: Josef El-Rayes To: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> Message-ID: <20040109092444.GA311@jenny.daemon.li> References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="envbJBWh7q8WU6mo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Reply-Path: j.el-rayes@daemon.li X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:25:00 -0000 --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> wrote: > Anyone help me how to untar a file with this extention file.tar.bz2 ? tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 see man tar for details. greets, josef --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iQEVAwUBP/5zXFnFItmnnbU8AQJJAgf/eb1ylUnP9wvCGYYZdMZjpCjtX058/7GF k1ddFWY8wwVRgguKBDzL76S+weUycYK4cEWwlv7BmhrJEflYRlaD2YG6qtTXU0z3 MZyU0ApnUFZxMk1D/7EdY0jqBzZU3+eGYzqgju2c1xWJL3FpLfgTGzO0g4eR1xIG D7QQINOJeZ9Z8sE9+ljaEere7Rw6pflbnW3YK1j6+kfWxeKKJm9iGrSKN4zMXxGV HzTvW/NvQQPgHbAklvPH2umEv/Nc7jH++N9jQV/+PThu6hwMZmXYmRdHIoMAAAII dyEYycrTpe2fjHzr1R1dmmwXfxOpAd+ybHDqPwYX1ECBDbQrmc4ZLQ== =ormL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:25:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3647B16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from tatiana.utanet.at (tatiana.utanet.at [213.90.36.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E779A43D2F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:25:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from pam.utanet.at ([213.90.36.6]) by tatiana.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aestq-0008Dk-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:25:50 +0100 Received: from dsl-21-113.utaonline.at ([81.189.21.113] helo=jenny.daemon.li) by pam.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aestq-0003xy-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:25:50 +0100 Received: by jenny.daemon.li (Postfix, from userid 1005) id E52EF2F2; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:25:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:25:57 +0100 From: Josef El-Rayes To: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> Message-ID: <20040109092557.GB311@jenny.daemon.li> References: <20040109075119.5CC1D16A4D3@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UHN/qo2QbUvPLonB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Reply-Path: j.el-rayes@daemon.li X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:25:53 -0000 --UHN/qo2QbUvPLonB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> wrote: > I have a problem when recompiling my Unix Kernel. I want to enable > ipchains modules. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig.html greets, josef --UHN/qo2QbUvPLonB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iQEVAwUBP/5zpVnFItmnnbU8AQJMWggAo+iEySwKhSvfa8ExuavZ1YxuHDrCFjfl +0pd8B4t5vOnQvVBRsvLWe7MKS6robVzcshZZCPKF6iuoV+GBv5zcqDRFpjjUAPT 8Q4RLHYZ0/SVZXFo9FDMFxizfvZXVKmbw9oMTdfzp0cw4QjRXdQsqRJiQQsZ4EiC 04+6/qWgdk6yJhj20ilYHiGK5M9vq2Si0PE2BNCpc4687xuCvOKw8eB33SrRP6wC ODUbvZ5/OAiVuLNasKQCZ5mgRrhvFu9cNcP1x1GjfOE0KCWgUjwWzIdEPgQnIsAd RfcYegXqXxj4ZjzXol5JunXBBYVZNrNgmXlPi0RTyhXv40hfm1vmOQ== =CAvE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UHN/qo2QbUvPLonB-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:29:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C961116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailbox.univie.ac.at (mailbox.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAF343D5A for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from l.ertl@univie.ac.at) Received: from pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at (pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at [131.130.2.177]) i099Sv7i380010; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:29:00 +0100 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:28:57 +0100 (CET) From: Lukas Ertl To: Josef El-Rayes In-Reply-To: <20040109092444.GA311@jenny.daemon.li> Message-ID: <20040109102845.X53689@pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at> References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <20040109092444.GA311@jenny.daemon.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-ZID-Univie-Metrics: mailbox 4246; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:29:18 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> wrote: > > Anyone help me how to untar a file with this extention file.tar.bz2 ? > > tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 tar xvjf .... regards, le -- Lukas Ertl eMail: l.ertl@univie.ac.at UNIX Systemadministrator Tel.: (+43 1) 4277-14073 Vienna University Computer Center Fax.: (+43 1) 4277-9140 University of Vienna http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~le/ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:33:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7750116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from tatiana.utanet.at (tatiana.utanet.at [213.90.36.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F5543D46 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from pam.utanet.at ([213.90.36.6]) by tatiana.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aet0q-0003qY-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:33:04 +0100 Received: from dsl-21-113.utaonline.at ([81.189.21.113] helo=jenny.daemon.li) by pam.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aet0q-0006UU-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:33:04 +0100 Received: by jenny.daemon.li (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 4C8632F2; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:33:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:33:11 +0100 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Lukas Ertl Message-ID: <20040109093311.GC311@jenny.daemon.li> References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <20040109092444.GA311@jenny.daemon.li> <20040109102845.X53689@pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sHrvAb52M6C8blB9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109102845.X53689@pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Reply-Path: j.el-rayes@daemon.li X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:33:09 -0000 --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Lukas Ertl wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 > tar xvjf .... i do not think that the order of the parameters have any influence on the result. -josef --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iQEVAwUBP/51V1nFItmnnbU8AQKy3wgAmh7vQDnumyUC5tXOtSdR/xomfSlS6DDw iOLyLlx8GHOO80tau3bHvYc29TxGbh1IGRyH/FCvvMyWL0CBu/krnKNCop0VSHo6 DWxQEkq+gjC4WPuDFrqEu2P+duD7YURwjmggeBDBg7UtXajsDEFoA8obFRBO6plF lyEW4cq2hd5UtE46DF1y/ntNKm77Ijk566VIIQuA7/nqNxw/hGZVmfh2WizGQJSZ K+6f4cMv7OsQTSvrH2e3pBU6ZIxLX+dO5yumlAG3g8weLbwe4Lsw0vCm9IEYpqrz V8NymFFD0RXLDntyuZNRgPZ94C43Wy+DYwc8p/ai0h2gy8n6/+nY0w== =db87 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sHrvAb52M6C8blB9-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 01:52:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A7916A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A0F43D4C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2AF5B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:52:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7F4622FDA09; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:52:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:52:46 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20040109095246.GT54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-ports References: <3FFC03E5.7010305@iconoplex.co.uk> <200401071429.i07ETZMI068819@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20040107200838.GD86935@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040108071730.GA53328@xor.obsecurity.org> <20040108173642.GS54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <20040109003630.GA63979@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109003630.GA63979@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-ports Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:52:55 -0000 # kris@obsecurity.org / 2004-01-08 16:36:30 -0800: > On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 06:36:42PM +0100, Roman Neuhauser wrote: > > That might be technically true, but the precise semantics of > > "(semi-)freeze" aren't as widely known as you seem to think. > > E. g. yesterday or today I received an email from a committer in > > response to my two mails to ports@ (the first urging a repocopy > > requested in a PR some time ago, the other retracting the request > > because of the freeze) saying (paraphrased) "to my surprise I was > > told repocopies are allowed during freeze". Some people just prefer > > to err on the safe side. > > Repo-copies are not allowed during the freeze, but are any other time. ok, so someone (at least two people) out there is confused about this, and this only further proves my statement about the uncertainty. > > > > Porter's handbook, and FDP Primer, while valuable (esp. the former) > > > > leave many questions unanswered. (I'm not going to further this > > > > rant, but will gladly provide feedback to anyone who asks.) > > > > > > I would have thought the procedure to rectify this would be obvious: > > > > The procedure really is obvious, but there's only so much time in a > > day. > > > > Also, I would have thought the Porter's handbook would e. g. contain > > info on preventing installation of .la files (I gathered from the > > ports@ list that they shouldn't be installed), isn't this lack quite > > obvious? > > No, please raise this on the ports list. ok, cc'd to ports, Mail-Followup-To set. -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 02:25:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BCA16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.186]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761CD43D4C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:25:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from RoKlein@roklein.de) Received: from [212.227.126.207] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Aetoz-00008c-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:24:53 +0100 Received: from [80.129.46.218] (helo=z105-e.intern.studentenwohnheim-rhein-main.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Aetoy-0007dz-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:24:52 +0100 From: Robert Klein Organization: roklein.de To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li, Lukas Ertl Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:27:18 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <20040109102845.X53689@pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at> <20040109093311.GC311@jenny.daemon.li> In-Reply-To: <20040109093311.GC311@jenny.daemon.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:ed18d71deac0f49a40655750752d3db9 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: RoKlein@roklein.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:25:28 -0000 On Freitag, 9. Januar 2004 10:33, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > Lukas Ertl wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > > tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 > > tar xvjf .... > i do not think that the order of the parameters > have any influence on the result. No, but the filename has to be right after the f. The following commands work, and both have the same result: tar -jxvf file.tar.bz2 tar -jxf file.tar.bz2 -v but the following does not work as you expect: tar -jxfv file.tar.bz2 In this command tar(1) tries to extract the file "v". Example error message: $ tar -jtfv xfce-4.0.1-src.tar.bz2 tar (child): v: Cannot open: No such file or directory tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now tar: Child returned status 2 tar: xfce-4.0.1-src.tar.bz2: Not found in archive tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors $ Regards, Robert From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 02:30:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289C716A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net (smtp1.adl2.internode.on.net [203.16.214.181]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D8B43D45; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:30:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (ppp108-195.lns1.adl1.internode.on.net [150.101.108.195])i09ATuZC070691; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:59:57 +1030 (CST) Received: from chowder.dons.net.au (root@localhost.dons.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09ATsaW016266; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:59:55 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=), Scott Long Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:59:53 +1030 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401092059.53755.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> X-Spam-Score: -4.7 () IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.26 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:30:05 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 19:37, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > 2) use pciconf -l (or direct access to /dev/pci) to retrieve the PCI > IDs of unclaimed devices, look them up in a list of supported PCI > devices, and load the appropriate module. You know, when I wrote the code in sysinstall to load KLD's I thought about= =20 this.. Unfortunatly there IS no such list :( I am not sure how hard it would be to generate, but I think it's non-trivia= l=20 (although probably not too difficult to maintain once it exists) =2D-=20 Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 02:53:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD8D16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from hannibal.servitor.co.uk (hannibal.servitor.co.uk [195.188.15.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C086243D1F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@hannibal.servitor.co.uk) Received: from paul by hannibal.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AeuGR-000LBS-D2; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:53:15 +0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:53:15 +0000 From: Paul Robinson To: Daniel O'Connor Message-ID: <20040109105315.GH27903@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 10:53:25 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 02:00:40PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > You still need the right drivers, ie which SCSI controller/network/... cards > you have to get a minimal install is _more_ when you are doing FTP (you need > a network). Out of around 300+ installs of FreeBSD I've done over the last few years, about 12 of them were by CD. The rest were FTP kick-started off floppy. Normally, because I happened to have the two floppies I needed in my shirt pocket. Since 4.x I have never had a problem with drivers, depsite installing on a range of hardware from non-branded Taiwanese notebooks through to £30k enterprise servers. I don't see the problem with floppy install. However, as Jordan said when discussing libh (http://rtp1.slowblink.com/~libh/sysinstall2/improvements.html): "As I mentioned in Section 2.3, one of the more annoying problems with FreeBSD's current distribution format is the dividing line between distributions and packages. There should really only be one type of "distribution format" and, of course, it should be the package (There Can Be Only One). Achieving this means we're first going to have to grapple with several problems, however: First, eliminating the distribution format means either teaching the package tools how to deal with a split archive format (they currently do not) or divorcing ourselves forever from floppies as a distribution medium. This is an issue which would seem an easy one to decide but invariably becomes Highly Religious(tm) every time it's brought up. In some dark corner of the world, there always seems to be somebody still installing FreeBSD via floppies and even some of the fortune 500 folks can cite FreeBSD success stories where they resurrected some old 386 box (with only a floppy drive and no networking/CD/...) and turned it into the star of the office/saved the company/etc etc. That's not to say we can't still bite that particular bullet, just that it's not a decision which will go down easily with everyone and should be well thought-out." I should point out, this appears to have been written some time ago, late 2002 I'm guessing. -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 03:33:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB0516A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from freecris.bmm.it (freecris.bmm.it [213.144.77.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 969BF43D2D for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:33:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tecnici@bmm.it) Received: (qmail 85902 invoked by alias); 9 Jan 2004 11:33:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO there) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.biella.bmm.it with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 11:33:26 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" From: Cristiano Deana Message-Id: <200401091215.03805@freecris.bmm.it> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:33:25 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] X-Face: ?iza0MuhY+S7~61CU2]CY&q(hZ~Zr(!\.]>#p&hWkx]UEmhz^`K(*#&fd[WW^l"qH$1=DUl5?]%s%FvRx{H7Q{ List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:33:03 -0000 Sorry for my basic knownledge about freebsd hacking and english language. Problem: i need to use an internal PCI modem, 56k. I found USR (NO winmodem) pci 56k but it were not right detect by freebsd. test# uname -rs FreeBSD 5.2-RC1 I add all his id in: src/sys/dev/puc/pucdata.c src/sys/dev/sio/sio_pci.c src/sys/dev/uart/uart_bus_pci.c copying and modifing existing similar USR modem pci. Now it's detect as: puc0@pci0:20:0: class=0x078000 card=0x00c412b9 chip=0x100712b9 rev=0x00 hdr=0x00 vendor = '3COM Corp, Modem Division (Formerly US Robotics)' device = 'ERL3263A-0 USR 56k Internal DF GWPCI PC99' class = simple comms It has not a subclass UART, so i have not a cuaa*. Any ideas? Verbose dmesg: http://moto.bmm.it/dmesg Thanks -- Cristiano Deana - FreeCRIS "Ho iniziato a usare FreeBSD perche' m$ usava me. ed e' spiacevole" in irc su: irc.azzurra.org #freebsd-it From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 03:40:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567AE16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from arthur.nitro.dk (port324.ds1-khk.adsl.cybercity.dk [212.242.113.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1947143D2D; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from simon@arthur.nitro.dk) Received: by arthur.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id 72D921184B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:40:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:40:21 +0100 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: "M. Warner Losh" Message-ID: <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: underway@comcast.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:40:24 -0000 --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2004.01.08 21:39:07 -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > > : and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for > : "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.)=20 >=20 > That should be changed. To? I have noticed FreeBSD, Inc on the copyright page a few times, but I never really knew what to replace it with. --=20 Simon L. Nielsen FreeBSD Documentation Team --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE//pMjh9pcDSc1mlERAix7AJ0YR52XA7T5kxQTUIYEf1MV4XiakwCgtHtn 8LWBaxJxQ6FJDZq0LTC0uwU= =aGto -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 04:32:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E5616A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 04:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.server-23.net (host.server-23.net [64.191.95.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC8E43D4C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 04:32:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from samy@kerneled.com) Received: from [212.116.200.127] (helo=beastie.freebsd.local) by host.server-23.net with asmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Aevol-0005Ko-SV; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:32:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:32:53 +0300 From: Samy Al Bahra To: Doug Rabson Message-Id: <20040109153253.59d25449.samy@kerneled.com> In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Organization: Kerneled X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.5-gtk2-20030906 (GTK+ 2.2.1; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.server-23.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - kerneled.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:32:54 -0000 On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:29:34 +0000 Doug Rabson wrote: > The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: [...] > 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported > and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. subversion properties (svn propset) would allow you to do this in a satisfactory manner. -- +-----------------------------------+ | Samy Al Bahra | samy@kerneled.com | |-----------------------------------| | B3A7 F5BE B2AE 67B1 AC4B | | 0983 956D 1F4A AA54 47CB | |-----------------------------------| | http://www.kerneled.com | +-----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:03:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C87216A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ftp.translate.ru (ftp.translate.ru [195.131.4.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB9943D45; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from lev (81.211.110.86.adsl-spb.net.rol.ru [81.211.110.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by ftp.translate.ru (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09D38HK010600; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:03:13 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:03:26 +0300 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62r) Personal Organization: Home X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <853399522.20040109160326@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: Doug Rabson In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re[2]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Lev Serebryakov List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:23 -0000 Hello, Doug! Thursday, January 8, 2004, 8:29:34 PM, you wrote: DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test DR> material for the migration scripts. Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is paranoid by default. Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know :) -- Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:04:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA37816A4D0 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tatiana.utanet.at (tatiana.utanet.at [213.90.36.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3011A43D39 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:04:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from josef@daemon.li) Received: from plenty.utanet.at ([213.90.36.9]) by tatiana.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AewJd-0006v7-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:04:41 +0100 Received: from dsl-21-113.utaonline.at ([81.189.21.113] helo=jenny.daemon.li) by plenty.utanet.at with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AewJY-00079T-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:04:36 +0100 Received: by jenny.daemon.li (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 8766072B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:04:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:04:41 +0100 From: Josef El-Rayes To: Robert Klein Message-ID: <20040109130441.GA628@jenny.daemon.li> References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <20040109102845.X53689@pcle2.cc.univie.ac.at> <20040109093311.GC311@jenny.daemon.li> <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Reply-Path: j.el-rayes@daemon.li X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.9-STABLE cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:04:50 -0000 --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Klein wrote: > > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > i do not think that the order of the parameters > > have any influence on the result. >=20 > No, but the filename has to be right after the f. The following=20 > commands work, and both have the same result: > In this command tar(1) tries to extract the file "v". have you noticed that i am _not_ using the '-'? tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 <- if you leave the '-' away then tar does not care about the order of the parameters. when you are using the dash before the arguments than the 'f' has to be just before the filename. tar -xvjf file.tar.bz2 <- why this is the case i have not found out, perhaps it is a features, or just a bug :) -josef --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iQEVAwUBP/6m6VnFItmnnbU8AQKcaQgAlWs2r0KCwO5DyUKV/2CymVHGmOx/lp2k OEBW1sitcz2r4lBKQ6hazX3WYNuQLeZrB4UEdiMm0FyHfkCzfQ8qBFbeeCQtQMDI ebIF8sGFCVKE3RqJGw64rFo+4FvYB1ftxtg3q+4xcjzkHilpUk3UEw+3lYXRvjJh bzPNZ0jVoxnhlsobrrd+OiVHVDlwO0flDjoU9rKZQxJ/PDWkDAGwSCNfDGrcE3EP aM+zBmfEHeo8bXDXGdSqIyBzeaukzpxHS8nyHXzbt1eIFcDmqukCmz+6xI/1lNWn y9RqHmWG+jHvn3d/UWK+Uf6JtwalupgvTgfdQWhY8rDszwROdoKcHQ== =A1oG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:07:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0996416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.177]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB1B43D54 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:07:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brueffer@phoenix-systems.de) Received: from [212.227.126.155] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AewMF-0001Gx-00 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:07:23 +0100 Received: from [82.139.198.15] (helo=ramses.kicks-ass.net) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1AewMF-00043e-00 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:07:23 +0100 Received: from cheops.phoenix (cheops.phoenix [192.168.1.3]) by ramses.kicks-ass.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C4C1CC67; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:07:22 +0100 (CET) From: Markus Brueffer To: RoKlein@roklein.de, j.el-rayes@daemon.li, Lukas Ertl Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:07:44 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <20040109093311.GC311@jenny.daemon.li> <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> In-Reply-To: <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091407.48104.brueffer@phoenix-systems.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:8ec224d13ac01bf3f3fc2e263edc1b08 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:07:26 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 11:27, Robert Klein wrote: > On Freitag, 9. Januar 2004 10:33, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > Lukas Ertl wrote: > > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > > > > tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 > > > > > > tar xvjf .... > > > > i do not think that the order of the parameters > > have any influence on the result. > > No, but the filename has to be right after the f. The following > commands work, and both have the same result: > > tar -jxvf file.tar.bz2 > tar -jxf file.tar.bz2 -v > > but the following does not work as you expect: > > tar -jxfv file.tar.bz2 > > In this command tar(1) tries to extract the file "v". > > Example error message: > $ tar -jtfv xfce-4.0.1-src.tar.bz2 > tar (child): v: Cannot open: No such file or directory > tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now > tar: Child returned status 2 > tar: xfce-4.0.1-src.tar.bz2: Not found in archive > tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors > $ Remove the "-" from the front of the options-list and it will work in your last example. So Josefs statement was correct. What I'm asking me, is why the "-" makes a difference, though I haven't looked at the sources, yet. The manpage states, that the "-" is only optional, so "tar -jxfv" and "tar jxvf" should be equivalent, but obviously they are not. Markus From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:18:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBCF16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de (mailhub.fokus.fraunhofer.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E05843D54 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100])i09DH8L11483; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:17:08 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:17:08 +0100 (CET) From: Harti Brandt To: Markus Brueffer In-Reply-To: <200401091407.48104.brueffer@phoenix-systems.de> Message-ID: <20040109140945.E16150@beagle.fokus.fraunhofer.de> References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> <200401091407.48104.brueffer@phoenix-systems.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: j.el-rayes@daemon.li Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:18:17 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Markus Brueffer wrote: MB>On Friday 09 January 2004 11:27, Robert Klein wrote: MB>> On Freitag, 9. Januar 2004 10:33, Josef El-Rayes wrote: MB>> > Lukas Ertl wrote: MB>> > > On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Josef El-Rayes wrote: MB>> > > > tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 MB>> > > MB>> > > tar xvjf .... MB>> > MB>> > i do not think that the order of the parameters MB>> > have any influence on the result. MB>> MB>> No, but the filename has to be right after the f. The following MB>> commands work, and both have the same result: MB>> MB>> tar -jxvf file.tar.bz2 MB>> tar -jxf file.tar.bz2 -v MB>> MB>> but the following does not work as you expect: MB>> MB>> tar -jxfv file.tar.bz2 MB>> MB>> In this command tar(1) tries to extract the file "v". MB>> MB>> Example error message: MB>> $ tar -jtfv xfce-4.0.1-src.tar.bz2 MB>> tar (child): v: Cannot open: No such file or directory MB>> tar (child): Error is not recoverable: exiting now MB>> tar: Child returned status 2 MB>> tar: xfce-4.0.1-src.tar.bz2: Not found in archive MB>> tar: Error exit delayed from previous errors MB>> $ MB> MB>Remove the "-" from the front of the options-list and it will work in your MB>last example. So Josefs statement was correct. MB> MB>What I'm asking me, is why the "-" makes a difference, though I haven't looked MB>at the sources, yet. The manpage states, that the "-" is only optional, so MB>"tar -jxfv" and "tar jxvf" should be equivalent, but obviously they are not. Old tar (v7) and Posix (well, SUSv2) have no dash before the key (the first argument to tar). They take option values from the next arguments in the order the options appear in the key string: tar xfbv file.tar 20000 x - no arg f - take next arg (file.tar) b - take next arg (20000) v - no arg. Using a dash is a gnu-ism and should be avoided in scripts. harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.fraunhofer.de, harti@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 05:29:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BCC16A4D0; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA9543D48; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:28:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09DSvHV087733; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09DSv8c087730; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:57 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:28:57 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Lev Serebryakov In-Reply-To: <853399522.20040109160326@serebryakov.spb.ru> Message-ID: <20040109152725.D32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re[2]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:29:01 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > Hello, Doug! > Thursday, January 8, 2004, 8:29:34 PM, you wrote: > > DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers > DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list > DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test > DR> material for the migration scripts. > Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? > > http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz > > But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- > many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is > paranoid by default. > > Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because > contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should > think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know > :) > Huh? Whats wrong with revision 1.2.1 ? This is perfectly normal cvs revision number, even if you have to use a command line option to get it. But it should not require any kind of special treatment. > -- > Lev Serebryakov > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 18:13:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DB616A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:13:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DFB343D48; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20040109021354012006jd0ge>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:13:54 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i092CHYS019994; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i092CBnT019993; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:12:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:12:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:59:20 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:39:24 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:13:57 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Ryan Sommers writes: > : Something like this might also jeopardize the > : project's "not for profit" status. > > The project is not a legally incorporated entity at this time, and > never has been in the past. And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD Project" and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.) I've not seen a US statute about false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some trademark statements. The "Legal" page could tell about using CVS to determine who owns what so they can be tracked down and asked if the copyright page is correct about what license they've got it under. :) Whether the project is "for profit" depends upon the definition, if the project is claiming copyright ownership, because gains of intellectual property is considered (by US copyright law, at least) to be a financial gain. But lots of organizations, formal and informal, have financial gains without problems with being considered "for profit", so if someone sees "for profit" problems, they should be specific about what the problems might be. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 18:26:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF75F16A4CE for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD4C43D41 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from babkin@bellatlantic.net) Received: from bellatlantic.net ([138.89.158.204]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040109022629.UKSB3381.out005.verizon.net@bellatlantic.net>; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:26:29 -0600 Sender: root@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3FFE1153.89B22D10@bellatlantic.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:26:27 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leo Bicknell References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108143934.GA51446@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [138.89.158.204] at Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:26:28 -0600 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:39:25 -0800 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 02:26:32 -0000 Leo Bicknell wrote: > > I'm going to propose a different solution that was brought up about > two years ago (although I can't find it now). > > You start with something like the CD boot image mentioned, that is > a 3-5 Meg iso image that basically contains what is now on the > floppies (perhaps with a few more drivers/modules) and nothing more. > Downloading and burning to CD would be the primary method of install. > > Then, to replace the current floppy process, a new floppy installer > is created. It may or may not be based on FreeBSD, but what it I guess a simple variation would be to split the CD boot filesystem into multiple floppies. Then remove the current contents from the MFSROOT floppy and put there a small program (plus possibly the first part of the split CD filesystem image) that would load the boot filesystem from the bunch of floppies into memory, load the extra kernel modules, and then start the installer from memory just as it would go when booted from CD. That should really be a no-brainer as long as the base kernel still fits onto one floppy. The only inconvenience is that we get something like 6 install floppies instead of 2, but it's not _such_ a big deal. -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 8 23:28:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D05E16A4CE; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B282C43D46; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <20040109072821012009oqp0e>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:28:21 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i097QhYS024360; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:26:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i097QcKR024359; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <1073533525.650.59.camel@localhost> <20040108.105920.09775084.imp@bsdimp.com> <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 23:26:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:39:07 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:39:24 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:28:25 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: > : > : And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD > : Project" > > It is a psudonymous work by The FreeBSD Project. Are you saying that "The FreeBSD Project" is a pseudonym for many of individuals, or what? And why does it matter with respect to whether an extra-legal entity may claim copyright ownership? > : I've not seen a US statute about > : false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all > : intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some > : trademark statements. > > No, the above is perfectly legal under US and International Copyright > law. Well, I know that it's legal to omit one's own copyright claim, but for some organization to lay claim to copyrights owned by you or me seems very wrong. It's a violation of BSD-type licenses and a violation of the concept of attribution that is behind the licenses. A legal entity has made the false claim of copyright ownership, whether that's an informal organization or the person who wrote the claim with a pseudonym. I'm not sure how you or I have been damaged, but I supose that a lawyer could find a way. What is your theory of why it's legal? I'm really interested. Are you saying it's just another way of saying "copyrights are owned by individual members of the informal FreeBSD project"? That seems legal enough, I guess, but it's a quite different statement, IMO. And as it doesn't follow the form giving by US copyright law I wonder if it is sufficent legal notice in the USA, if you plan to sue infringers for the most money possible. > For profit or not is irrelvant, given that there's no legally > incorporated entity for the project. I'm fairly sure that members of informal organizations can be held liable for the acts of other members in the USA. For example, under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations ("RICO") Act. And even if all members could not be held liable, persons directly responsible for the wrongdoing could be. Example wrongdoings are not paying taxes on the profit or not reporting the profit. But I admit that this issue seems unlikely to cause problems as long as someone pays taxes on any obvious profits other than copyright licenses. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 00:46:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDC316A4D0 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.157.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673D343D58 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 00:46:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (Ugrondar@localhost [127.0.0.1]) i098j8mT086603; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:45:08 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) Received: (from Ugrondar@localhost)i098j86L086602; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:45:08 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: storm.FreeBSD.org.uk: Ugrondar set sender to mark@grondar.org using -f Received: from grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])i098gKMI088779; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:42:20 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.org) From: Mark Murray Message-Id: <200401090842.i098gKMI088779@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:58:48 GMT." Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:42:20 +0000 Sender: mark@grondar.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 05:39:25 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:46:29 -0000 YACINE GHANJAOUI writes: > Anyone help me how to untar a file with this extention file.tar.bz2 ? > Thanks, This is really questions@ material, but... $ tar -y.... M -- Mark Murray iumop ap!sdn w,I idlaH From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 06:01:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF1816A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546A143D5C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F855B; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:01:52 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5DFAC2FDA0E; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:01:52 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:01:52 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Samy Al Bahra Message-ID: <20040109140152.GW54743@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: Samy Al Bahra , Doug Rabson , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> <20040109153253.59d25449.samy@kerneled.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109153253.59d25449.samy@kerneled.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:01:57 -0000 # samy@kerneled.com / 2004-01-09 15:32:53 +0300: > On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 17:29:34 +0000 > Doug Rabson wrote: > > The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: > [...] > > > 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported > > and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. > > subversion properties (svn propset) would allow you to do this in > a satisfactory manner. Please explain how props can be used to embed custom keywords in bodies of the files in a satisfactory manner, e. g. on svn export. -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 06:52:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFCF16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31FA43D46; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09EqIET097772; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:52:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:52:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.075201.81090753.imp@bsdimp.com> To: underway@comcast.net From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> References: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:52:22 -0000 In message: <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : "M. Warner Losh" writes: : : > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> : > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : > : : > : And yet the "Legal" page carries a claim of copyright for "The FreeBSD : > : Project" : > : > It is a psudonymous work by The FreeBSD Project. : : Are you saying that "The FreeBSD Project" is a pseudonym for many of : individuals, or what? And why does it matter with respect to whether : an extra-legal entity may claim copyright ownership? Yes. It is a collection of individuals. It is explicitly allowed for in copyright law. : > : I've not seen a US statute about : > : false copyright claims, but I think it would be less risky to say "all : > : intellectual property is owned by its owners", in the manner of some : > : trademark statements. : > : > No, the above is perfectly legal under US and International Copyright : > law. : : Well, I know that it's legal to omit one's own copyright claim, but : for some organization to lay claim to copyrights owned by you or me : seems very wrong. Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 06:52:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861D216A4D0; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FB343D53; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09EqsET097806; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:52:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:52:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.075237.45377906.imp@bsdimp.com> To: simon@FreeBSD.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> References: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: underway@comcast.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:52:58 -0000 In message: <20040109114019.GA688@arthur.nitro.dk> "Simon L. Nielsen" writes: : On 2004.01.08 21:39:07 -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote: : > In message: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> : > underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) writes: : > : > : and the "Copyright" page has that plus a similar claim for : > : "FreeBSD, Inc." (For 2004, even.) : > : > That should be changed. : : To? I have noticed FreeBSD, Inc on the copyright page a few times, but : I never really knew what to replace it with. The FreeBSD Project. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 06:59:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9367A16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB1A43D5A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:59:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09ExkET098017; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:59:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:59:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> To: des@des.no From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: scottl@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:59:51 -0000 In message: des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav) writes: : 2) use pciconf -l (or direct access to /dev/pci) to retrieve the PCI : IDs of unclaimed devices, look them up in a list of supported PCI : devices, and load the appropriate module. There's some ongoing work to make this easier to do. There are some issues with doing this, but nothing that can't be overcome. Every PCI driver in the tree will likely need to change in some form to make this happen, however. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 07:15:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1C916A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ftp.translate.ru (ftp.translate.ru [195.131.4.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1881243D3F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Received: from lev (81.211.110.86.adsl-spb.net.rol.ru [81.211.110.86]) (authenticated bits=0) by ftp.translate.ru (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09FFcHK011382; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:15:41 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from lev@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:16:02 +0300 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.62r) Personal Organization: FreeBSD Developers Team X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <19210315820.20040109181602@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: Narvi In-Reply-To: <20040109152725.D32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> References: <20040109152725.D32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: Lev Serebryakov cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re[3]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Lev Serebryakov List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:15:49 -0000 Hello, Narvi! Friday, January 9, 2004, 4:28:57 PM, you wrote: >> DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the >> DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died >> DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers >> DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list >> DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test >> DR> material for the migration scripts. >> Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? >> http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz >> But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- >> many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is >> paranoid by default. >> Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because >> contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should >> think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know >> :) N> Huh? Whats wrong with revision 1.2.1 ? This is perfectly normal cvs N> revision number, even if you have to use a command line option to get it. N> But it should not require any kind of special treatment. It is NOT perfectly normal cvs revision number. WHAT TYPE of revision number is it? Normal numbers are (first level of branching is showed only): x.y -- TRUNK x.y.0.(2n) -- MAGIC for branch (in SYMBOLS only) x.y.(2n).z -- Revision on branch x.1.(2n+1) -- Vendor branches (in SYMBOLS only) x.1.(2n+1).z -- Vendor imports Ok, ok, it should be some broken vendor branch. But what do you say about `1.1.2'? Or even simple `1' (look into sysintall's Attic). BTW, repo from FreeBSD 4.9 is parsed almost without such errors (sysinstall, pppd + kernel part of ppp, zoneinfo). Some problems are with double symbols (one symbolic name marks two revisions: MAGIC one and simple one), and with symbols, which marks unexistent revisions (many, many such symbols over all repository). But my computer doesn't have enough memory to finish conversion process. -- Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 07:15:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217CA16A4D0 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp105.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp105.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.169.225]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 294A043D2D for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from q_dolan@yahoo.com.au) Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.100.140?) (q?dolan@203.144.21.67 with plain) by smtp105.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 15:15:55 -0000 From: Q To: Cristiano Deana In-Reply-To: <200401091215.03805@freecris.bmm.it> References: <200401091215.03805@freecris.bmm.it> Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <1073661279.97984.54.camel@boxster.onthenet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:14:39 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New modem. Newbie need help. X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:15:57 -0000 This particular card is a controllerless modem (ie. it is a winmodem), and has no UART. Seeya...Q On Fri, 2004-01-09 at 21:33, Cristiano Deana wrote: > Sorry for my basic knownledge about freebsd hacking and english language. > > Problem: i need to use an internal PCI modem, 56k. > I found USR (NO winmodem) pci 56k but it were not right detect by freebsd. > > test# uname -rs > FreeBSD 5.2-RC1 > > I add all his id in: > src/sys/dev/puc/pucdata.c > src/sys/dev/sio/sio_pci.c > src/sys/dev/uart/uart_bus_pci.c > copying and modifing existing similar USR modem pci. > > Now it's detect as: > puc0@pci0:20:0: class=0x078000 card=0x00c412b9 chip=0x100712b9 rev=0x00 > hdr=0x00 > vendor = '3COM Corp, Modem Division (Formerly US Robotics)' > device = 'ERL3263A-0 USR 56k Internal DF GWPCI PC99' > class = simple comms > > It has not a subclass UART, so i have not a cuaa*. > > Any ideas? > > Verbose dmesg: > http://moto.bmm.it/dmesg > > Thanks From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 07:38:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C5616A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF48C43D49; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 6A222531A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:38:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 0A6985314; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:38:12 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id CF6A533C9A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:38:11 +0100 (CET) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:38:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:59:29 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: scottl@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:38:22 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > des@des.no (Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav) writes: > : 2) use pciconf -l (or direct access to /dev/pci) to retrieve the PCI > : IDs of unclaimed devices, look them up in a list of supported PCI > : devices, and load the appropriate module. > There's some ongoing work to make this easier to do. There are some > issues with doing this, but nothing that can't be overcome. Every PCI > driver in the tree will likely need to change in some form to make > this happen, however. Not necessarily; one could, as a temporary measure, create and maintain the list of supported PCI IDs manually. I had a prototype once (though my purpose at the time was to generate kernel configs, not load modules). I dropped it because someone else was working on the same thing and had it seemed they'd gotten further than I had. I still have the sources though... (rev 1.32 of sys/dev/pci/pcireg.h was a side effect of that work) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 08:02:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A96416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from stud.alakhawayn.ma (stud.alakhawayn.ma [193.194.63.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D7943D41 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from 001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma) Received: from localhost (001VA36979@localhost) by stud.alakhawayn.ma (8.9.0/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA16994 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:57:07 GMT Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:57:07 +0000 (GMT) From: YACINE GHANJAOUI <001VA36979@stud.alakhawayn.ma> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:02:52 -0000 Hi, when trying to intercept UDP packet after changing the protocol number from 17 to a user one (99) in the ip_input.c file. when trying to regenrate the packet after inserting some bit errors an error message appears in the reciever telling that The udp checksum is incorrect even if i just change the ip Header. What do you think the problem is? Thanks in Advance, From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 08:17:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1F516A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.tcbug.org (12-218-40-24.client.mchsi.com [12.218.40.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A8A43D1D; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:17:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from friar_josh@ns1.tcbug.org) Received: by ns1.tcbug.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 33AB3BADC; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:16:55 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:16:55 +0000 From: Josh Paetzel To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20040109101654.GA5860@ns1.tcbug.org> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108015954.V32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108101451.GK48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108033905.A32598@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108220249.GM48603@over-yonder.net> <3FFDDB7A.3000804@freebsd.org> <20040108233251.GP48603@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108233251.GP48603@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:17:18 -0000 > > There are several documents linked off of http://www.freebsd.org/releng > > that describe how to build a release. It's not nearly as arcane of a > > process as it used to be 5 years ago. The biggest barrier to entry is > > probably disk space. You'll need a good 5GB free to hold the CVS repo, > > chroot environment, and resulting bits. > > Well, I've got the CVS repo, though boy, has *THAT* ever grown since I > built this system; I had to trim it down to only src and ports, and even > so: > /dev/da1s1e 2032623 1769089 100925 95% /usr/cvs > > Of course, I left out the ports and docs parts of the release last time I > tried (which was in fact about 5 years ago ;), though I had all kinda of > troubles with parts of THAT, too. But still, I don't have even a tenth > that much hard drive space around. > > > > Yes, to build the floppies you need to build most of the release, but > > once you've built the release, you can back-step and rebuild the > > floppies at will. > > And building the whole release is quite an ordeal on a Pentium Pro :) > > > Still, I'm willing to donate some time and brain to the problem, since > apparently I kinda care about it. It seems to me that the probing > problem above is the biggest problem from a real coding POV; the rest is > mostly just a whole heck of a lot of implementation, and "inconvenience" > from the usability standpoint. That's a breaking point. > > I'll donate the disk space and CPU time if you want to run with this. I have an interest in keeping floppies around, but not much ability to help out. Josh Paetzel From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 09:27:23 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA6816A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.176]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4099143D45 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:27:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from RoKlein@roklein.de) Received: from [212.227.126.208] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Af0PL-0000YB-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:26:51 +0100 Received: from [80.129.46.218] (helo=z105-e.intern.studentenwohnheim-rhein-main.de) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Af0PL-0007Rv-00; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:26:51 +0100 From: Robert Klein Organization: roklein.de To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:29:18 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> <20040109130441.GA628@jenny.daemon.li> In-Reply-To: <20040109130441.GA628@jenny.daemon.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401091829.18576.RoKlein@roklein.de> X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:ed18d71deac0f49a40655750752d3db9 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: RoKlein@roklein.de List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:27:23 -0000 On Freitag, 9. Januar 2004 14:04, Josef El-Rayes wrote: > Robert Klein wrote: > have you noticed that i am _not_ using the '-'? > tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 <- > > if you leave the '-' away then tar does not care > about the order of the parameters. > > when you are using the dash before the arguments > than the 'f' has to be just before the filename. > tar -xvjf file.tar.bz2 <- Oops, sorry. I didn't notice the dash left out. I stand corrected. Best regards, Robert From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 09:38:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A0C16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.farley.org (farley.org [67.64.95.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B48C43D49; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) Received: from thor.farley.org (0hfn1bredusukhpe@thor.farley.org [IPv6:2002:4340:5fcd:1::5]) by mail.farley.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09Hcrkq006059; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) Received: from thor.farley.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thor.farley.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09HcqWN001544; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) Received: from localhost (sean@localhost)i09HcqJY001541; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sean-freebsd@farley.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thor.farley.org: sean owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:38:52 -0600 (CST) From: Sean Farley X-X-Sender: sean@thor.farley.org To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Message-ID: <20040109113432.R1511@thor.farley.org> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:38:58 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Doug Rabson wrote: > I've been re-evaluating the current subversion over the last couple of > weeks and its holding up pretty well so far. It still misses the > repeated merge thing that p4 does so well but in practice, merging > does seem to be a lot easier than with CVS due to the repository-wide > revision numbering system - that makes it easy to remember when your > last merge happened so that you don't merge a change twice. > > The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: > > 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin dump > and load. > 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported > and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. > 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers are > planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list archives, > it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test material for > the migration scripts. I admit to having not tried it, but I wonder how well OpenCM (http://www.opencm.org/) would compare. I think it would have a smaller footprint than Subversion. Sean ----------------------- sean-freebsd@farley.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 10:21:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F4816A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E7743D4C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09IL2HV091406; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:21:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09IL237091403; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:21:02 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:21:02 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Lev Serebryakov In-Reply-To: <19210315820.20040109181602@serebryakov.spb.ru> Message-ID: <20040109194720.C32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re[3]: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:21:06 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > Hello, Narvi! > Friday, January 9, 2004, 4:28:57 PM, you wrote: > > >> DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the > >> DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died > >> DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers > >> DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list > >> DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test > >> DR> material for the migration scripts. > >> Did you try my (pure-perl) vatinat ``RefineCVS''? > >> http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.76.783.tar.gz > >> But, please, read documentation carefully before reporting bugs -- > >> many errors could be avoided with command-line options, sctipy is > >> paranoid by default. > >> Some parts of FreeBSD repository could not be converted, because > >> contains revisions like 1.2.1 and other `I don't know what I should > >> think about this' errors. If you have some good ideas -- let me know > >> :) > N> Huh? Whats wrong with revision 1.2.1 ? This is perfectly normal cvs > N> revision number, even if you have to use a command line option to get it. > N> But it should not require any kind of special treatment. > > It is NOT perfectly normal cvs revision number. WHAT TYPE of > revision number is it? > See, the problem is that you are thinking in overly constrained terms of revision numbers that cvs creates by default, and even so don't think about RCS at all. CVS is not a real CM system its an half-assed one built on top of RCS. 1.2.1 could be a branch (this would be the usual case) or it could be a file revision created by ci(1). in fact, even old (ok, the old here is relative) versions of cvs let you create it as file revision. > Normal numbers are (first level of branching is showed only): > > x.y -- TRUNK > x.y.0.(2n) -- MAGIC for branch (in SYMBOLS only) (2n) here is completely - utterly, totaly, etc - bogus. > x.y.(2n).z -- Revision on branch > x.1.(2n+1) -- Vendor branches (in SYMBOLS only) > x.1.(2n+1).z -- Vendor imports > see above for 2n. > Ok, ok, it should be some broken vendor branch. But what do you say > about `1.1.2'? Or even simple `1' (look into sysintall's Attic). > simple 1 is simple - somebody was using ci, and forgot about dots. 1.1.2 is similar to 1.2.1. > BTW, repo from FreeBSD 4.9 is parsed almost without such errors > (sysinstall, pppd + kernel part of ppp, zoneinfo). > Some problems are with double symbols (one symbolic name marks two > revisions: MAGIC one and simple one), and with symbols, which marks > unexistent revisions (many, many such symbols over all repository). > > But my computer doesn't have enough memory to finish conversion process. > It may be worthwhile to collect such and have somebody do a fixup. > -- > Lev Serebryakov > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 11:35:58 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4388116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (alcatraz.inna.net [209.201.74.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E098943D1F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:35:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from xyzzy@moo.sysabend.org) Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [66.111.41.70]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B47FF14E99 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (nullmailer pid 69073 invoked by uid 14); Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:35:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:35:51 -0800 From: Tom Arnold To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040109193551.GD39751@moo.sysabend.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The Sysabend Dump X-Operating-System: CPM2.2 X-Bucket-Brigade-Devices: Rah! Subject: Large Filesystem Woes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: xyzzy@sysabend.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:35:58 -0000 I previously posted this on -fs but got no responce so I'm trying -hackers. Building a box thats going to house many billions of small files. Think innd circa 1998 or someone trying to house AOLs mail system on cyrus or something. To this end I've hung a 3.3TB hardware raid off a BSD box broken into 4 partitions. 3 1TB and 1 300GB. Originally this was on a 4.9 box. da0s1 and da0s2 were formatted "stock" ( -f 2048 -b 16384 -i 8192 ) da1s1 and s2 were both formatted -f 512 -b 4096 -i 512. Needless to say fsck took a while if the box came up dirty. Switched to 5.2. Newfs'd the RAID for UFS2. First issue, if the machine came up dirty, bgfsck seemed to do its thing and the machine was online and usable after about 20 minutes however after a few hours I get this error : fsck: /dev/da1s1e: CANNOT CREATE SNAPSHOT /export/database/.snap/fsck_snapshot: File too large fsck: /dev/da1s1e: UNEXPECTED INCONSISTENCY; RUN fsck MANUALLY. And the second thing I've noticed is I have lost a lot of space. Under 4.9 with UFS da1s1e was approx 870gigs and s2e was around 180, now I see : Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity iused ifree %iused Mounted on /dev/da0s1e 992G 4.0K 912G 0% 2 134411260 0% /export/logs1 /dev/da0s2e 992G 4.0K 912G 0% 2 134411260 0% /export/logs2 /dev/da1s1e 510G 1.0K 469G 0% 2 2148661228 0% /export/database /dev/da1s2e 94G 1.0K 86G 0% 2 395214332 0% /export/spare I'm not certain if I've run into some kind of weird limit here or a bug or what and am looking for ideas to persue before I'm stuck going to an OS with something journaled. Thanks! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Tom Arnold - When I was small, I was in love, - - Sysabend - In love with everything. - - CareTaker - And now there's only you... - -------------- -- Thomas Dolby, "Cloudburst At Shingle Street" - From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:07:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0774C16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tacorp.net (mail.tacorp.net [208.20.58.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFFD43D31 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from raistlin@tacorp.net) Received: from mail.tacorp.net (raistlin@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.tacorp.net (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09KG3rm097960 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:16:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from raistlin@tacorp.net) Received: from localhost (raistlin@localhost)i09KG3Dx097957 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:16:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from raistlin@tacorp.net) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.tacorp.net: raistlin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:16:03 -0500 (EST) From: Jason Slagle To: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3FFDC218.60607@aueb.gr> Message-ID: <20040109151524.T94465@mail.tacorp.net> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> <20040108171108.GA6216@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> <3FFDC218.60607@aueb.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:07:35 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Diomidis Spinellis wrote: > I presume the above means a PXE *client*. This would be cool, but by no > means trivial. I looked at this in the past when I wanted to network > boot FreeBSD on a couple of machines that did not support a boot ROM and > reached a dead end; I ended up using PicoBSD and NFS-mounting most of > the stuff. What about etherboot? Doesn't it do exactly this? Jason -- Jason Slagle - CCNP - CCDP /"\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign . X - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail . / \ - NO Word docs in e-mail . From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:38:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0CF516A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB7C43D2D; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:38:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1AC2D; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:38:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 803DD2FDA0E; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:38:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:38:39 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: freebsd-current , freebsd-hackers Message-ID: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current , freebsd-hackers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:38:42 -0000 I have two related questions, one being more appropriate for current@, the other for hackers@, but they're quite the same thing, so sorry for the cross-post, I hope it's tolerable (I bet this won't solicit many replies :). I dislike the boot menu in CURRENT, and would prefer something that * doesn't rob me of the text output so far * displays no mascots or other visual noise Here's the question perhaps more appropriate for hackers@: I looked into ripping the ascii-art out, but am quite scared. However, forth looks like it's an interesting (love/hate kind of thing) language, and I'd like to get my hands on it. Can anyone recommend good (or just any, really) introductory material? google quickly degrades into misses, and just a few even of those. And here's the one for current@: Failing the above query, does anyone have a replacement that meets my requirements? (But I'd really prefer hacking it myself, so links to tutorials are awarded with more points than off-the-shelf programs. :) TIA && HAND! -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:50:21 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8325916A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DD043D2F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:50:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09Ko5HV092814; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:50:05 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09Ko5iE092811; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:50:05 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:50:05 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:50:21 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > "M. Warner Losh" writes: > > > Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is > > legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing > > emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. > > You obviously don't want to discuss this, and it's easy to guess the > real reasons. Your main problem here, and apparently that of your > lawyers, is that you don't understand what the issues are to which > copyright law is to be applied. The legality of collective copyrights > was not my issue. Your other problem is putting words in people's > mouth; I would never admit to know not knowing US copyright law > because I know it quite well enough to argue FreeBSD's IP issues with > anybody. If I don't write with the same seeming authority as you, > that's more your problem than mine. > > I expected my comments to be ignored or brushed off, but I didn't > expect to be brushed off in your rude and insulting manner. Maybe > when I've recovered, and if I haven't made my move to NetBSD yet, I'll > write up a more complete explanation of FreeBSD's IP problems instead > of trying to deal with the likes of you in a conversation. > Please do. But could you also include reasoning for use of US specific view (if thats what you are going to use) as there is essentially no reason why US copyright regulations and practices should preferentialy apply to it. Especially as the licence has no such stipulations about applicable law in it. > > We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that > the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the > message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a > few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. > It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all involved. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:55:39 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC1516A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:55:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD14E43D1F; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:55:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) id i09Ktarc073875; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:55:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:55:36 -0600 From: Dan Nelson To: freebsd-current , freebsd-hackers Message-ID: <20040109205536.GA3393@dan.emsphone.com> References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> X-OS: FreeBSD 5.2-CURRENT X-message-flag: Outlook Error User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:55:39 -0000 In the last episode (Jan 09), Roman Neuhauser said: > I have two related questions, one being more appropriate for > current@, the other for hackers@, but they're quite the same thing, > so sorry for the cross-post, I hope it's tolerable (I bet this won't > solicit many replies :). > > I dislike the boot menu in CURRENT, and would prefer something that > > * doesn't rob me of the text output so far > * displays no mascots or other visual noise I believe adding beastie_disable="NO" to /boot/loader.conf will do what you want. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@allantgroup.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:00:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F8316A4D1; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDF2843D31; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:00:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org ([24.7.73.28]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004010921002401400pi9dme>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:25 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA48604; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:00:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:00:21 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: "Matthew D. Fuller" In-Reply-To: <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:00:44 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this > > CD format, please take in to account: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > > It seems to me that we could split more out into modules, and/or add more > disks of modules (maybe categorize a "storage device" modules disk, a > "network drivers" modules disk, etc, keeping just the more common devices > in the main kernel). Last I saw, the current system only created a > single modules disk, which was a godsend to a kernel overflowing one > disk, but as we add more and more stuff becomes another, albeit larger, > noose. Here at Vicor, we have over a thousand machines spread over about 20 sites. About 10 of those machines have cdrom drives. Our plans call for moving from 4.x to 5.x, probably at the end of 2004, maybe early 2005. Most of the machien swill not have been replaced by then so we'll still have very few cdroms. Luckily this would probably not be an issue for the upgrade, but the Custommer Engineers (CEs) need to be able to rebuild machine quickly in the case of disk failures or other problems. They use floppies at the moment for this. I could immagine that a floppy that did a net-boot might be a possibility, but retraining them to do things differently is always a problem. > > > -- > Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net > Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ > > "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I > haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:02:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B3016A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F8F143D6E; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i09L1s7B058309; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:01:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i09L1sVZ058308; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:01:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:01:54 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: scottl@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:02:44 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 04:38:11PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >"M. Warner Losh" writes: >> des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) writes: >> : 2) use pciconf -l (or direct access to /dev/pci) to retrieve the PCI >> : IDs of unclaimed devices, look them up in a list of supported PCI >> : devices, and load the appropriate module. >> There's some ongoing work to make this easier to do. There are some >> issues with doing this, but nothing that can't be overcome. Every PCI >> driver in the tree will likely need to change in some form to make >> this happen, however. > >Not necessarily; one could, as a temporary measure, create and >maintain the list of supported PCI IDs manually. These sort of 'temporary measures' have a nasty habit of becoming permanent - witness sysinstall itself. Having to keep two lists of PCI IDs in sync manually is a maintenance nightmare. The (conceptually) simplest approach would be for all drivers to advertise the PCI IDs that they can support (together with a priority) in a manner that would allow such a list to be generated automatically. This would be fairly trivial for the PCI drivers that already scan a table of PCI IDs, but would be a nuisance for the drivers that have the PCI IDs wired into the probe code. Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:06:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450F916A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from newsguy.com (smtp.newsguy.com [129.250.170.69]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5202F43D41 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:06:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (200-096-164-005.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.96.164.5]) by newsguy.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i09L60PQ082017; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:06:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Message-ID: <3FFF1799.5090807@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:05:29 -0200 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,pt,en-GB,en-US,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roman Neuhauser References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> In-Reply-To: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:06:11 -0000 Roman Neuhauser wrote: > Here's the question perhaps more appropriate for hackers@: > > I looked into ripping the ascii-art out, but am quite scared. However, > forth looks like it's an interesting (love/hate kind of thing) language, > and I'd like to get my hands on it. Can anyone recommend good (or just > any, really) introductory material? google quickly degrades into misses, > and just a few even of those. As someone has already replied, disabling the beastie menu is simple, and requires but a single line in /boot/loader.conf. On the other hand, I'd recommend cheking out the Forth Interest Group web page (http://www.forth.org/) if you want to search for reading material. And, yes, it's a love/hate kind of thing. :-) I think someone ported a userland version of Forth as lang/ficl. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org In related news Microsoft Windows users are now covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:06:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83B516A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D04143D58; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 104C55314; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:06:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id D8B8D5308; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:06:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 6EB3F33C9A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:06:31 +0100 (CET) To: Peter Jeremy References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:06:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> (Peter Jeremy's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:01:54 +1100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: scottl@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:06:57 -0000 Peter Jeremy writes: > The (conceptually) simplest approach would be for all drivers to > advertise the PCI IDs that they can support (together with a priority) > in a manner that would allow such a list to be generated automatically. yes, we need something like struct pci_device_info { uint32_t pciid; char brand[64]; char model[64]; } my_supported_devices[] =3D { { 0x12345678, "Acme", "Nutcracker 2000" } }; which is placed in a separate ELF section so we can extract it from the module. except it needs to be flexible enough to support other buses than PCI (SBUS, USB...) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:11:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF45516A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FFD43D2F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i09LBF7B058328; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:11:15 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i09LBECZ058327; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:11:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:11:14 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Avleen Vig Message-ID: <20040109211114.GQ25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <200401082334.i08NYMx86020@thistle.bogs.org> <200401091404.34083.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <20040109043017.GM53429@silverwraith.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109043017.GM53429@silverwraith.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:11:25 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 08:30:17PM -0800, Avleen Vig wrote: >A simple website which lets you choose what drivers you want (anyone >seen the .muttrc config page? :) >That should be really easy to do with a little perl CGI. >I might take a crack at this in the next week or so. FWIW, Plan-9 ( http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/index.html ) does this: You describe your hardware via a WEB form and the site spits out a boot floppy customised to your hardware. In order for this to be practical, we'd need to avoid having to fully compile a custom kernel - we'd probably need to develop and use the a 'binary distribution' approach (as for all the commercial Unices). Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:20:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B7A16A4D2 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA79643D45 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:19:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i09LJV7B058342; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:19:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i09LJQJf058341; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:19:26 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:19:26 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Daniel Lang Message-ID: <20040109211926.GR25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:20:19 -0000 On Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 10:52:08AM +0100, Daniel Lang wrote: >Matthew D. Fuller wrote on Thu, Jan 08, 2004 at 01:58:11AM -0600: >[..] >> And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even >> if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to >> install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the >> LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > >That's no point, as you can use a CD-RW, so no media is wasted. Not all CD readers will read CD-RW's (I have one that won't). And this doesn't solve the problem of not having a CD burner or installing onto a system that either doesn't have a CD drive or won't boot off one (I have systems in both categories). >On the other hand, I guess such systems are able to boot over >the network. I'd love to see a integrated boot and installation >procedure that utilizes PXE (or any other network boot method) >and advocates it. (In this regard I just love Suns). Keep in mind that older systems probably won't boot over the network without a netboot ROM or similar. The netboot ROM images are (or were) in the distribution but aren't much use without an EPROM burner. Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:24:19 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9735116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7D243D54 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:24:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 7DA325314; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:24:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id C19475308; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:24:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A885933C9A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:24:09 +0100 (CET) To: Peter Jeremy References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <20040108075059.GK53429@silverwraith.com> <20040108075811.GJ48603@over-yonder.net> <20040108095207.GA52153@atrbg11.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> <20040109211926.GR25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:24:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040109211926.GR25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> (Peter Jeremy's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:19:26 +1100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:24:19 -0000 Peter Jeremy writes: > Keep in mind that older systems probably won't boot over the network > without a netboot ROM or similar. The netboot ROM images are (or > were) in the distribution but aren't much use without an EPROM > burner. I believe that in most cases you can dd the ROM image to a floppy and boot from it. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:25:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8480C16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40B6F43D41 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:25:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 35089 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 21:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 21:25:39 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFF1BEE.9090400@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:23:58 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:25:44 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Peter Jeremy writes: > >>The (conceptually) simplest approach would be for all drivers to >>advertise the PCI IDs that they can support (together with a priority) >>in a manner that would allow such a list to be generated automatically. > > > yes, we need something like > > struct pci_device_info { > uint32_t pciid; > char brand[64]; > char model[64]; > } my_supported_devices[] = { > { 0x12345678, "Acme", "Nutcracker 2000" } > }; > > which is placed in a separate ELF section so we can extract it from > the module. > > except it needs to be flexible enough to support other buses than PCI > (SBUS, USB...) > > DES Yeah, this is a good suggestion, the only problem being in making it flexible enough to not be a burden on the drivers. Many drivers keep one or more flag elements in their tables to flag hardware than needs special attention. I'm sure that there are also countless other pieces of state that drivers would want to associate with a table like this. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:31:22 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA42916A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3978A43D2D for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:31:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 35501 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 21:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 21:31:19 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFF1D42.90408@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:29:38 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:31:23 -0000 Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >>On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 11:50:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of >>Avleen Vig, and lo! it spake thus: >> >>>While it is indeed true that most machines since 1997 will support this >>>CD format, please take in to account: >> >>And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even >>if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to >>install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the >>LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. >> >>It seems to me that we could split more out into modules, and/or add more >>disks of modules (maybe categorize a "storage device" modules disk, a >>"network drivers" modules disk, etc, keeping just the more common devices >>in the main kernel). Last I saw, the current system only created a >>single modules disk, which was a godsend to a kernel overflowing one >>disk, but as we add more and more stuff becomes another, albeit larger, >>noose. > > > Here at Vicor, we have over a thousand machines spread over about > 20 sites. About 10 of those machines have cdrom drives. Our plans call > for moving from 4.x to 5.x, probably at the end of 2004, maybe early > 2005. Most of the machien swill not have been replaced by then so > we'll still have very few cdroms. > Luckily this would probably not be an issue for the upgrade, but > the Custommer Engineers (CEs) need to be able to rebuild machine quickly > in the case of disk failures or other problems. They use floppies at the > moment for this. > > I could immagine that a floppy that did a net-boot might > be a possibility, but retraining them to do things differently is > always a problem. > > Can these machines netboot/PXEboot? In any case, there looks to be some prospects for someone stepping forward to help with floppies. If Vicor wants to help out too, that would be wonderful. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:36:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAAB16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cruzio.com (dsl3-63-249-85-132.cruzio.com [63.249.85.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0A143D73 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brucem@mail.cruzio.com) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cruzio.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09NYHs0000312 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:34:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brucem@mail.cruzio.com) Received: (from brucem@localhost) by mail.cruzio.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i09NYHHQ000311 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:34:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brucem) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:34:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Bruce R. Montague" Message-Id: <200401092334.i09NYHHQ000311@mail.cruzio.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:36:27 -0000 Hi, re the question from Roman Neuhauser Fri, 9 Jan 2004: > forth looks like it's an interesting .. language. > Can anyone recommend good (or just > any, really) introductory material? --- If you do want to get into Forth, you can probably find some of the following in a decent research library: * The common leading intro text to Forth was: "Starting FORTH", Leo Brodie, FORTH, Inc., Prentice Hall, 1981. * Another good intro was: "FORTH", W.P. Salerman, O.Tisserand, and B. Toulout, Springer-Verlag, 1983. * It's not a tutorial, but it may be helpful: "FORTH Encyclopedia: The Complete FORTH Programmer's Manual", Mitch Derick and Linda Baker, 2nd ed., Mountain View Press, 1982. * Uneven, but potentially very good for the novice, "Invitation to FORTH", Harry Katzan, Jr., PBI, 1981. * If nothing else, you should be able to find this influential introductory paper by an IBMer, which arguably played an important role in legitimizing Forth use: "An Architectural Trail to Threaded-Code Systems", Peter M. Kogge, "IEEE Computer", v.15,n.3, pp.22-32, March 1982. --- If you are used to any RPN language, such as found on an HP calculator, or Postscript, you will find getting into Forth rather easy (Although not the same, Forth and Postscript are very similar). It's not often described this way, but you can somewhat think of Forth as a stand-alone interactive threaded-code compiler backend, which you can program directly using the compiler's intermediate language and interact with the symbol table. Forth is at it's best when you have small (<32K), unique embedded systems (perhaps with custom architecture) and have no existing toolchain. I think you could find a Forth in the ports tree to get up-to-speed with, before looking at boot-time FICL... Paul Frenger has a Forth column in SIGPLAN notices. For instance, the only published academic reference that I am aware of that describes PicoBSD is "Forth and the FreeBSD Bootloader", Paul Frenger, "ACM SIGPLAN Notices", August 2000, v.35,n.8, pp.15-17. I don't know how active this is, but there are many links: http://www.forth.org Forth seems to have become heavily used in spacecraft. The instrument platform on the US probe that landed on as asteroid awhile back was all Forth, if I understand correctly. Both US and USSR used Forth this way. See also: http://forth.gsfc.nasa.gov Reasonably impressive list... - bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:36:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6149F16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gulfgate-inc.com (mail.gulfgate-inc.com [64.1.98.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A5543D6D for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:36:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mpf@inodes.us) Received: (qmail 56705 invoked by uid 85); 9 Jan 2004 21:37:34 -0000 Received: from mpf@inodes.us by linkdead.beatlab.org by uid 89 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (uvscan: v4.1.60/v4248. spamassassin: 2.x. Clear:. Processed in 0.986337 secs); 09 Jan 2004 21:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO inodes.us) (mfreitag@gulfgateequipment.com@192.168.0.4) by 192.168.0.40 with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 21:37:32 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFF1EBE.9020405@inodes.us> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:35:58 -0600 From: Matt Freitag User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031013 Thunderbird/0.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> In-Reply-To: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:36:54 -0000 Narvi wrote: >>"M. Warner Losh" writes: >> >> >> >>>Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is >>>legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing >>>emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. >>> >>> >> >It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point >where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a >way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited >to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of >which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all >involved. > > So there are cases of code by authors being committed into the codebase without their knowledge/consent? This would be a problem. If code is being committed against license, I definitely see an issue here. However, If you /GIVE/ your IP to the FreeBSD community, it's no longer yours. Either way, apparently you'll never make everyone happy, even as hundreds (or thousands) of people give away their time to produce something at no cost to you, there's still always going to be someone complaining. (We refer to this as a sense of entitlement - Many people have this, and it's an unfortunate growing fad all over.) If you don't want your code in FreeBSD, don't submit it. Anyone going to pursue some indictments against Coyote Point Systems? Since their load-balancing hardware runs FreeBSD, and I don't believe (I'm unsure, but from the info I've gotten, it doesn't sound like it.) that they give you any of the source with your purchase of their hardware, Hmm.... -mpf +---- - - | Resistance is futile, assimilation into the FreeBSD community is inevitable. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 13:59:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8807416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from as6-1-5.kr.m.bonet.se (as6-1-5.kr.m.bonet.se [217.215.84.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9373B43D3F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:58:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin@gneto.com) Received: from gneto.com (euklides.gneto.com [192.168.10.11]) by as6-1-5.kr.m.bonet.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43913743AC for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:58:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:57:56 +0100 From: Martin Nilsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031212 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:59:01 -0000 This is getting stupid! This discussion is just like when the i386 support was removed from the GENERIC kernel, a lot of noise about old systems that wouldn't be able to run (or benefit) from FreeBSD 5 anyway. >>And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even >>if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to >>install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the >>LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. I fail to see the difference in required labour between creating two floppies or a CD-R/RW disc. Most new machines ship with CD-RW drives today, the only boxes that can't boot from a CD are early Pentium1 class and frankly why run 5.x or 6.x on those? > Here at Vicor, we have over a thousand machines spread over about > 20 sites. About 10 of those machines have cdrom drives. Our plans call > for moving from 4.x to 5.x, probably at the end of 2004, maybe early > 2005. Most of the machien swill not have been replaced by then so > we'll still have very few cdroms. That is why I want to get boot from an USB CDROM to work, this way you just plug in the portable drive in the machine that you want to boot just like you do with a floppy, the difference is that you don't have to wait to change floppies. You can also save some money by not having to buy CD/floppy drives for your servers. Slim drives (for server use) are not cheap. Besides floppydrives tend to collect dust and never work anyway when you want to use them. > Luckily this would probably not be an issue for the upgrade, but > the Custommer Engineers (CEs) need to be able to rebuild machine quickly > in the case of disk failures or other problems. They use floppies at the > moment for this. PXE boot against an automated backup/restore service would be much more useful for this. /Martin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:02:49 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AD616A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB39B43D31; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:02:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org ([24.7.73.28]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20040109220243013005fb6ke>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:02:47 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA49348; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:02:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:02:40 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <3FFF1D42.90408@freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:02:50 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Scott Long wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Here at Vicor, we have over a thousand machines spread over about > > 20 sites. About 10 of those machines have cdrom drives. Our plans call > > for moving from 4.x to 5.x, probably at the end of 2004, maybe early > > 2005. Most of the machien swill not have been replaced by then so > > we'll still have very few cdroms. > > Luckily this would probably not be an issue for the upgrade, but > > the Custommer Engineers (CEs) need to be able to rebuild machine quickly > > in the case of disk failures or other problems. They use floppies at the > > moment for this. > > > > I could immagine that a floppy that did a net-boot might > > be a possibility, but retraining them to do things differently is > > always a problem. > > > > > > Can these machines netboot/PXEboot? In any case, there looks to be some > prospects for someone stepping forward to help with floppies. If Vicor > wants to help out too, that would be wonderful. I have grave doubts as to all 1000 machines being able to net/PXE boot.. They have come from varying sources at different times.. Of course we may be able to produce our own boot floppies with unneeded options removed.. A net-booting floppy may be enough, and I'll add it to my list of things that I'll keep my eye on.. If we get close and no-one has worked on it I'll see what I need to do to get it to work for us :-) (At that point I'd get payed to do whatever it took :-) > > Scott > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:08:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BD316A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510B043D5A for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org ([24.7.73.28]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20040109220810013006sglqe>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:08:10 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA49413; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:08 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Martin Nilsson In-Reply-To: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:08:12 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Martin Nilsson wrote: > This is getting stupid! > > > > Here at Vicor, we have over a thousand machines spread over about > > 20 sites. About 10 of those machines have cdrom drives. Our plans call > > for moving from 4.x to 5.x, probably at the end of 2004, maybe early > > 2005. Most of the machien swill not have been replaced by then so > > we'll still have very few cdroms. > > That is why I want to get boot from an USB CDROM to work, this way you > just plug in the portable drive in the machine that you want to boot > just like you do with a floppy, the difference is that you don't have to > wait to change floppies. You can also save some money by not having to > buy CD/floppy drives for your servers. Slim drives (for server use) are > not cheap. Besides floppydrives tend to collect dust and never work > anyway when you want to use them. > Many of the older machines don't have the USB connectors brough out of the boxes The motherboards mostly have them but even then I wouldn't guarantee that all of them do. Certainly I know that many of the machines from 4 or so years ago have no externally accessible USB connectors. (custom cases etc.). These boxes are doign fixed jobs and as long as they can "keep up" they will not be replaced. That's the "real world". > > Luckily this would probably not be an issue for the upgrade, but > > the Custommer Engineers (CEs) need to be able to rebuild machine quickly > > in the case of disk failures or other problems. They use floppies at the > > moment for this. > > PXE boot against an automated backup/restore service would be much more > useful for this. Assuming they have PXE and a supported card.. > > /Martin > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:08:50 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F348D16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB1A43D1F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists-freebsd@silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1Af4ny-0002Wg-Q3; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:08:34 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:34 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Martin Nilsson Message-ID: <20040109220834.GX53429@silverwraith.com> References: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:08:50 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 10:57:56PM +0100, Martin Nilsson wrote: > This discussion is just like when the i386 support was removed from the > GENERIC kernel, a lot of noise about old systems that wouldn't be able > to run (or benefit) from FreeBSD 5 anyway. No, this is nothing like that. > >>And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > >>if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > >>install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > >>LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > > I fail to see the difference in required labour between creating two > floppies or a CD-R/RW disc. Most new machines ship with CD-RW drives > today, the only boxes that can't boot from a CD are early Pentium1 class > and frankly why run 5.x or 6.x on those? Incorrect. I and others have already given several examples of how modern machines cannot boot from CD for all the various reasons given. If the freebsd hosting mirrors don't mind us NFS mounting their servers to get the boot image, etherboot would be by far the simplest solution to maintain in the long run - then we can go with Scott's approach of getting rid of the current floppies, and adding in the other suggested approach of downloading the boot img from a remote server and "running" it. (I believe etherboot can be used like this, please someone correct me if i'm wrong). From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:10:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA01216A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261FE43D94 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:09:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09M9cHV093492; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:09:39 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09M9bEY093489; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:09:38 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:09:37 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Matt Freitag In-Reply-To: <3FFF1EBE.9020405@inodes.us> Message-ID: <20040109235913.U32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:10:34 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Matt Freitag wrote: > Narvi wrote: > > >>"M. Warner Losh" writes: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is > >>>legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing > >>>emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. > >>> > >>> > >> > >It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point > >where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a > >way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited > >to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of > >which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all > >involved. > > > > > So there are cases of code by authors being committed into the codebase > without their knowledge/consent? This would be a problem. If code is > being committed against license, I definitely see an issue here. Consider code merges from Net/OpenBSD. There is no explicit permission involved nor needed. > However, If you /GIVE/ your IP to the FreeBSD community, it's no longer > yours. Either way, apparently you'll never make everyone happy, even as Well... See, this is the place where people go wrong. Nobody is *GIVING* their IP or code to anybody (and this includes the original sources from Berkeley), they are simply licencing it. And unsuprisingly enough, there is a difference - a big one - between two two. Whetever one needs to be concerned about that is yet againan altogether different matter. The same would by the way apply even if all of FreeBSD was GPL licenced. > hundreds (or thousands) of people give away their time to produce > something at no cost to you, there's still always going to be someone > complaining. (We refer to this as a sense of entitlement - Many people > have this, and it's an unfortunate growing fad all over.) If you don't > want your code in FreeBSD, don't submit it. Anyone going to pursue some > indictments against Coyote Point Systems? Since their load-balancing > hardware runs FreeBSD, and I don't believe (I'm unsure, but from the > info I've gotten, it doesn't sound like it.) that they give you any of > the source with your purchase of their hardware, Hmm.... > There is no scenario at all under which they would have to give you their code. None at all. > -mpf > > +---- - - > | Resistance is futile, assimilation into the FreeBSD community is > inevitable. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:20:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6703016A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from kientzle.com (h-66-166-149-50.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.166.149.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF8843D6B for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kientzle@acm.org) Received: from acm.org ([66.166.149.54]) by kientzle.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i09MJnkX055157; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kientzle@acm.org) Message-ID: <3FFF2905.8090904@acm.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:19:49 -0800 From: Tim Kientzle User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20031006 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Markus Brueffer References: <20040108181346.84AE116A4E0@hub.freebsd.org> <20040109093311.GC311@jenny.daemon.li> <200401091127.18780.RoKlein@roklein.de> <200401091407.48104.brueffer@phoenix-systems.de> In-Reply-To: <200401091407.48104.brueffer@phoenix-systems.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: j.el-rayes@daemon.li Subject: Re: tar's unusual argument handling X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: kientzle@acm.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:20:52 -0000 Markus Brueffer wondered why: tar xvfj file.tar.bz2 is not the same as tar -xvfj file.tar.bz2 > What I'm asking me, is why the "-" makes a difference, though I haven't looked > at the sources, yet. The manpage states, that the "-" is only optional, so > "tar -jxfv" and "tar jxvf" should be equivalent, but obviously they are not. The manpage has not explained the history here. The original tar programs (1970s?) used a very peculiar command line: tar [letter options] [arguments to those options] For example, the 'b' and 'f' options both require arguments, so you would use them as tar xbfv 32 file.tar Note that '32' is the argument to 'b' and 'file.tar' is the argument to 'f'. Also note that there is no '-' here. This is totally different from other Unix programs, of course, so most current tar programs handle the arguments differently depending on whether there is a leading '-'. If there is a leading '-', then it uses common Unix conventions, so that tar -xfj file.tar.bz2 has 'j' as the argument to '-f', but tar xfj file.tar.bz2 considers 'file.tar.bz2' to be the argument to 'f'. To avoid this confusion, always put the 'f' last: tar xjf file.tar.bz2 and tar -xjf file.tar.bz2 really do mean the same thing. It's also worth noting that for many tar programs, the first argument MUST BE the mode argument ('x', 'c', 't', 'r', 'u', and sometimes 'd' or 'A'), that is tar xvjf file.tar.bz2 GOOD but tar jxvf file.tar.bz2 BAD My 'bsdtar' implementation, in particular, requires that the first option be a mode specifier (because it allows it to provide better feedback about nonsense options and handles some odd cases where options don't have quite the same meaning in different modes). Tim From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 08:01:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA55416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:01:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun-fish.com (blah.sun-fish.com [62.176.125.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885E243D46 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:01:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vladimir.terziev@sun-fish.com) Received: from 127.0.0.1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antivirus.software (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A16214AC3 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:59:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from daemon.cmotd.com (daemon.cmotd.com [192.168.3.104]) by sun-fish.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E531D14AC2 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:59:48 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:03:05 +0200 From: Vladimir Terziev To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20040109180305.18c23192.vlady@sun-fish.com> Organization: SunFish Ltd. X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.7claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:21:08 -0800 Subject: UNIX / BSD parallel port programming documentation X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:01:02 -0000 Hi hackers, I have to develop small server which has to manage custom microcontroller via parallel port interface. Does anyone know good manual/documentation about UNIX / BSD parallel port programming ? Thanks in advance! Vladimir From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 10:36:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B76616A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.ocgnet.org (adsl-68-93-27-129.dsl.austtx.swbell.net [68.93.27.129]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B0843D31 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:36:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djmike@ocgnet.org) Received: from ocgnet.org (cs6669217-156.austin.rr.com [::ffff:66.69.217.156]) (IDENT: foobar, AUTH: LOGIN djmike) by smtp.ocgnet.org with esmtp; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:36:17 -0600 Message-ID: <3FFEF383.2060707@ocgnet.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:31:31 -0600 From: Mike Partin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux ppc; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031222 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:21:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:36:18 -0000 Sorry to jump in the conversation so late, and without reading the entire thread to date, but has anyone considered tla as an scm, it handles merging and branching much more sanely than cvs or svn, not to mention the benefits of distributed development and the dumb server model. and there are tools available (cscvs for one) that will convert cvs to tla archives with full history. Just a thought. And as for the memory issues in conversion, cscvs uses SQLite as a storage medium during conversion to alleviate the need for mass amounts of memory during the conversion process, with quite a nice performance boost. Mike Partin From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 11:59:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6821F16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2A943D4C; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:59:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: from localhost.localdomain (12-230-74-101.client.attbi.com[12.230.74.101]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004010919593301400o4dvne>; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:59:34 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i09JvqYS035105; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i09Jvk8B035104; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:57:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from underway@comcast.net) To: "M. Warner Losh" References: <9td69t98g4.69t@mail.comcast.net> <20040108.213907.112623273.imp@bsdimp.com> <35u1357fbm.135@mail.comcast.net> <20040109.075201.81090753.imp@bsdimp.com> From: underway@comcast.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:57:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20040109.075201.81090753.imp@bsdimp.com> (M. Warner Losh's message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2004 07:52:01 -0700 (MST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:21:08 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: underway@comcast.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:59:36 -0000 "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Whatever. I've consulted lawyers on this who assure me that it is > legal. You've admitted to not knowing US Copyright law and are aguing > emotion, which is why I didn't reply to the rest of your message. You obviously don't want to discuss this, and it's easy to guess the real reasons. Your main problem here, and apparently that of your lawyers, is that you don't understand what the issues are to which copyright law is to be applied. The legality of collective copyrights was not my issue. Your other problem is putting words in people's mouth; I would never admit to know not knowing US copyright law because I know it quite well enough to argue FreeBSD's IP issues with anybody. If I don't write with the same seeming authority as you, that's more your problem than mine. I expected my comments to be ignored or brushed off, but I didn't expect to be brushed off in your rude and insulting manner. Maybe when I've recovered, and if I haven't made my move to NetBSD yet, I'll write up a more complete explanation of FreeBSD's IP problems instead of trying to deal with the likes of you in a conversation. We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 12:40:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4752716A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx-3.iquest.net (mx-3.iquest.net [206.246.180.53]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D451643D3F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:39:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dyson@iquest.net) Received: (qmail 3377 invoked by uid 80); 9 Jan 2004 20:39:57 -0000 Received: from dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net (dsl-static-206-246-160-137.iquest.net [206.246.160.137]) by webmail.iquest.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:57 -0500 Message-ID: <1073680797.3fff119d89733@webmail.iquest.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:39:57 -0500 From: "" To: Miguel Mendez References: <200401062000.i06K0hSI012184@dyson.jdyson.com> <200401072317.i07NHaM9065411@apollo.backplane.com> <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <3FFD01CE.5070301@energyhq.es.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Originating-IP: 206.246.160.137 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 14:21:08 -0800 cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Munden Randall J cc: Brett Glass cc: jsd@jdyson.com Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:40:28 -0000 Quoting Miguel Mendez : > Matthew Dillon wrote: > > > interdisciplinary people left in the project. The SMP interactions > > that John mentions are not trivial... they would challenge *ME* and > > regardless of what people think about my social mores I think most > > people would agree that I am a pretty good programmer. > > My thoughts exactly. Every time I have this kind of argument, be it on > irc or in a mailing list, I get told that Sun needed X years to do the > fine grained locks in Solaris and other similar crap. Solaris was > possible because Sun could throw more engineers at the problem if > needed. FreeBSD is not in such situation. How many people have intimate > knowledge of the VM subsystem? How many people besides John Baldwin have > ever touched the SMPng code? I don't think anybody has doubts about your > programming-fu, btw :) > One comment: I doubt that I could do the things that I used to be able on FreeBSD. However, it has been my position (for years), that the many-mutex ad-hoc approach would require brilliant people to implement, and incredibly brilliant people to maintain. (I have lost alot of context -- due to persistent burnout, but still remember alot of the problems.) > > > serious trouble down the line. The idea (that some people have stated > > in later followups to this thread) that the APIs themselves will > > stabilize is a pipedream. The codebase may become reasonably stable, > > Agreed. Like I've said, the main problem I see is complexity. It > wouldn't matter as much if there were 5-10 people with deep knowledge of > SMPng, but with 1 or 2 hackers working on it, the chance that everything > will be ever fixed is quite small. > IMO, the easiest way to start the SMP work (from a FreeBSD monolithic approach), is to flatten as much of the VFS/VM code as possible into a continuation scheme... That is something that I could have done 5yrs ago in a few weeks, and then keep the networking system as it is. There would be shims deployed that would still support the sleep/wakeup scheme, so that the non-networking could and the new flat interface could be debugged... (It is NOT a good idea to bug the networking guys until the new scheme would be debugged.) At that point, there would be a code with explicit context carried around, and no nesting or stack context. This would have a small benefit of avoiding multiple deeply nested kernel stacks... Given the very flat scheme, each subsystem could be recoded into a message passing or simple continuation scheme (whatever is appropriate.) The system would be naturally able to be reworked -- without the hidden dependencies of the stack. VFS/VM layering problems then become resolvable. This is NOT a total solution, but should be the beginning of a thinking exercise that seems to lead into the correct direction. (Don't criticize this based upon the completeness of my prescription, but on what can eventually be developed!!!) > > IMHO ULE is making progress quite fast. I wouldn't rely on it for > production, but so far is looks very good. > The need for a new scheduler (or extreme rework on BSD) whenever you see the threads bouncing around from CPU to CPU. My temporary hack solutions couldn't work right, and it is good that the issue is being researched. > > non-interrupt threads due to priority borrowing, and non deterministic > > side effects from blocking in a mutex (because mutexes are used for > > many things now that spl's were used for before, this is a very > > serious issue). > > Yes, that's the main problem I see, not much on the scheduler side, but > on the 6-trillion-mutexes side. > The IQ of the maintainers would probably have to be 6-trillion, which would definitely allow the very few elegible developers to maintain their high priest status forever :-). > > See? I didn't mention DragonFly even once! Ooops, I didn't mention > > DFly twice. oops! Well, I didn't mention it more then twice anyway. > > Makes me wonder if some of the solutions proposed by DragonFly could be > ported to FreeBSD, but I doubt it will be done, since it's more or less > admitting that the current solution is wrong. > Sometimes, I think that people have their egos directed wrongly... The egos should be fed by the excellent behavior/performance/reliability of the FreeBSD OS. Being embarassed about appropriately borrowing code or ideas from other sources (WITH APPROPRIATE ATTRIBUTION) is counter productive. A developer should be able to say "I was wrong, or my code/design needs rework", without any problems. No-one produces the golden perfect code for the first iteration!!! Oh well -- I cannot think too much about this stuff, or I'll actually get emotionally involved again. I need to get a 'normal' job, not working at home and need to interact with people instead of CRTs. :-). (I give a sh*t about FreeBSD, and hope that WHATEVER problems that truly exist are fully resolved.) There is alot of blood sweat and tears in that codebase, and being involved in the project should be done with great respect. John From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:28:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAEBA16A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from praetor.linc-it.com (adsl-068-157-070-217.sip.jan.bellsouth.net [68.157.70.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2233743D96; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-157-169.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.157.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by praetor.linc-it.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E98153D2; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:26:57 -0600 (CST) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 24D4720F2A; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:26:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:26:54 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040109222654.GS48603@over-yonder.net> References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <3FFF1BEE.9090400@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFF1BEE.9090400@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:28:54 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 02:23:58PM -0700 I heard the voice of Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > > > >yes, we need something like > > > >struct pci_device_info { > > uint32_t pciid; > > char brand[64]; > > char model[64]; > >} my_supported_devices[] = { > > { 0x12345678, "Acme", "Nutcracker 2000" } > >}; > > > >which is placed in a separate ELF section so we can extract it from > >the module. > > > >except it needs to be flexible enough to support other buses than PCI > >(SBUS, USB...) > > > >DES > > Yeah, this is a good suggestion, the only problem being in making it > flexible enough to not be a burden on the drivers. Many drivers > keep one or more flag elements in their tables to flag hardware than > needs special attention. I'm sure that there are also countless other > pieces of state that drivers would want to associate with a table like > this. I was poking around a bit (in my completely kernel-fu-lacking way) at this last night. For one thing, we could avoid the struct definition, and instead just mandate a few fields in the structure with given names as above. Then, write a little helper .c file with a main() that goes through the array (with the name given as a preprocessor -D or something) and spits the info out into a text file. Compile it up and run it for each module as we compile it, and assemble the results in a big reference file. Then, a userland program (like sysinstall, in this case) can easily poke through that text file to find and describe the drivers for devices found. I also was thinking that perhaps we should just stick the vendor/model ID's (and maybe submodel and bus, too) into a string and export it via sysctl; that was we don't have to use another tool or manually grub around /dev/pci and whatever other buses there might be, to identify devices pining away for a driver to mate with. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:34:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0308016A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2E3143D62 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:34:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 57053 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 22:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 22:34:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFF2C03.5080502@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:32:35 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roman Neuhauser References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> In-Reply-To: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers cc: freebsd-current Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:34:31 -0000 Roman Neuhauser wrote: > I have two related questions, one being more appropriate for current@, > the other for hackers@, but they're quite the same thing, so sorry for > the cross-post, I hope it's tolerable (I bet this won't solicit many > replies :). > > I dislike the boot menu in CURRENT, and would prefer something that > > * doesn't rob me of the text output so far > * displays no mascots or other visual noise > As was pointed out, adding 'beastie_disable=YES' to /boot/laoder.conf will do the trick. > Here's the question perhaps more appropriate for hackers@: > > I looked into ripping the ascii-art out, but am quite scared. However, > forth looks like it's an interesting (love/hate kind of thing) language, > and I'd like to get my hands on it. Can anyone recommend good (or just > any, really) introductory material? google quickly degrades into misses, > and just a few even of those. A good link to start with is: http://ficl.sourceforge.net/ficl.html#whatis We use FICL, which is a particular implementation of Forth. > > And here's the one for current@: > > Failing the above query, does anyone have a replacement that meets my > requirements? (But I'd really prefer hacking it myself, so links to > tutorials are awarded with more points than off-the-shelf programs. :) > > TIA && HAND! > The only point for putting the mascot onto the screen was to fill unused space next to the menu. I you want to keep the menu and remove the mascot, just remove the line in beastie-menu that calls print-beastie. For astetics, you could then reformat the menu dimensions to take up the whole screen. Of course, leaving the menu on the screen at all defeats your first goal mentioned above. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:38:00 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5D716A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (papagena.rockefeller.edu [129.85.41.71]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657F043D64; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from papagena.rockefeller.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) i09MYDkk019417; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:34:13 -0500 Received: (from rsidd@localhost) by papagena.rockefeller.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i09MYA9e019415; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:34:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:34:10 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Narvi Message-ID: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Narvi , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.20-20.9smp i686 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Copyrights (was: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:38:01 -0000 Narvi wrote: > > We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that > > the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the > > message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a > > few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. > > > > It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point > where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a > way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited > to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of > which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all involved. Copyright transfer is certainly not required if the code was released by the original author under a suitable free software licence (BSD/GPL/LGPL or others that permit FreeBSD to redistribute them). All that is required is that you retain the author's copyright statement in the source files. You can of course not do this with copyrighted material in general. It is the free software licence that allows you to do it if you abide by its conditions. If the claim is that there is code in the tree whose licensing status is doubtful, you should point out that code. As for the "copyright (C) the FreeBSD project" bit: As I understand, editors/publishers who compile anthologies can claim copyright on the anthologies (the act of anthologisation itself being a creative process) even if the individual articles in the anthology are copyright by their respective authors. Similarly, free software distributors like Red Hat can (and do) claim copyright on their distributions. According to OpenBSD's website, Theo de Raadt claims copyright on OpenBSD's CDs and does not permit their copying or distributing ISO images of those CDS, though of course you can assemble your own ISO and distribute those. The assembling of the FreeBSD system through various contributions is a creative act and I'm quite sure it's copyright protected, and the copyright can be claimed by "the FreeBSD project" ie the community of FreeBSD developers, even if individual components are copyrighted by others. Even the GPL has no problem with that: the GPL explicitly exempts "mere aggregation" from its virality clause so you needn't get the permission of every copyright holder of GPL'd work in the tree before distributing it, as long as it's not linked to GPL-incompatible code. The FSF does demand transfer of copyright to them for all contributions to official GNU software, but this is not because it would be illegal for them to use these contributions otherwise; it is because they think they can more successfully challenge GPL violators if they, as a single entity, hold all the copyrights. Rahul From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:52:03 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EA516A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lilith.bellavista.cz (bellavista.worldonline.cz [212.90.245.154]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B7E43D53; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neuhauser@bellavista.cz) Received: from freepuppy.bellavista.cz (freepuppy.bellavista.cz [10.0.0.10]) by lilith.bellavista.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41D02D; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:52:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by freepuppy.bellavista.cz (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 920FF2FDA0E; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:52:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:52:00 +0100 From: Roman Neuhauser To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040109225200.GM5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Mail-Followup-To: Scott Long , freebsd-current , freebsd-hackers References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <3FFF2C03.5080502@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFF2C03.5080502@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: freebsd-hackers cc: freebsd-current Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:52:03 -0000 # scottl@freebsd.org / 2004-01-09 15:32:35 -0700: > Roman Neuhauser wrote: > >I have two related questions, one being more appropriate for current@, > >the other for hackers@, but they're quite the same thing, so sorry for > >the cross-post, I hope it's tolerable (I bet this won't solicit many > >replies :). > > > >I dislike the boot menu in CURRENT, and would prefer something that > > > >* doesn't rob me of the text output so far > >* displays no mascots or other visual noise > The only point for putting the mascot onto the screen was to fill unused > space next to the menu. I you want to keep the menu and remove the > mascot, just remove the line in beastie-menu that calls print-beastie. > For astetics, you could then reformat the menu dimensions to take up the > whole screen. Of course, leaving the menu on the screen at all defeats > your first goal mentioned above. so there's no way of having something output without clearing the screen? then I might just disable the menu completely, supposing there's an alternative similar to (or same as) the boot prompt in STABLE, which I have no problem with. -- If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore your message. see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 14:57:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228DE16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7701D43D80 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 59333 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 22:56:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 22:56:07 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFF3122.9030807@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:54:26 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roman Neuhauser References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <3FFF2C03.5080502@freebsd.org> <20040109225200.GM5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> In-Reply-To: <20040109225200.GM5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers cc: freebsd-current Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:57:11 -0000 Roman Neuhauser wrote: > # scottl@freebsd.org / 2004-01-09 15:32:35 -0700: > >>Roman Neuhauser wrote: >> >>>I have two related questions, one being more appropriate for current@, >>>the other for hackers@, but they're quite the same thing, so sorry for >>>the cross-post, I hope it's tolerable (I bet this won't solicit many >>>replies :). >>> >>>I dislike the boot menu in CURRENT, and would prefer something that >>> >>>* doesn't rob me of the text output so far >>>* displays no mascots or other visual noise > > >>The only point for putting the mascot onto the screen was to fill unused >>space next to the menu. I you want to keep the menu and remove the >>mascot, just remove the line in beastie-menu that calls print-beastie. >>For astetics, you could then reformat the menu dimensions to take up the >>whole screen. Of course, leaving the menu on the screen at all defeats >>your first goal mentioned above. > > > so there's no way of having something output without clearing the > screen? then I might just disable the menu completely, supposing > there's an alternative similar to (or same as) the boot prompt in > STABLE, which I have no problem with. > Remove the 'clear' word from beastie-start Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 15:03:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A76316A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04C8343D1F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 59791 invoked by uid 1002); 9 Jan 2004 23:03:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 23:03:05 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFF32C4.8070908@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:01:24 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roman Neuhauser References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <3FFF2C03.5080502@freebsd.org> <20040109225200.GM5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> <3FFF3122.9030807@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <3FFF3122.9030807@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers cc: freebsd-current Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:03:08 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > Roman Neuhauser wrote: > >> # scottl@freebsd.org / 2004-01-09 15:32:35 -0700: >> >>> Roman Neuhauser wrote: >>> >>>> I have two related questions, one being more appropriate for current@, >>>> the other for hackers@, but they're quite the same thing, so sorry for >>>> the cross-post, I hope it's tolerable (I bet this won't solicit many >>>> replies :). >>>> >>>> I dislike the boot menu in CURRENT, and would prefer something that >>>> >>>> * doesn't rob me of the text output so far >>>> * displays no mascots or other visual noise >> >> >> >>> The only point for putting the mascot onto the screen was to fill unused >>> space next to the menu. I you want to keep the menu and remove the >>> mascot, just remove the line in beastie-menu that calls print-beastie. >>> For astetics, you could then reformat the menu dimensions to take up the >>> whole screen. Of course, leaving the menu on the screen at all defeats >>> your first goal mentioned above. >> >> >> >> so there's no way of having something output without clearing the >> screen? then I might just disable the menu completely, supposing >> there's an alternative similar to (or same as) the boot prompt in >> STABLE, which I have no problem with. >> > > Remove the 'clear' word from beastie-start > > Scott > Actually, this isn't quite right since the menu and mascot will just overwrite whatever is already on the screen. The better solution would be to replace the 'clear' word in /boot/screen.4th with a version that spits out 25 line feeds. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 15:25:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BE616A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA49C43D49; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.12.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i09NPSHV094071; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:29 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost)i09NPSPt094068; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:28 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:25:28 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> Message-ID: <20040110011022.K32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyrights (was: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:25:34 -0000 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Narvi wrote: > > > We can all be glad that it hasn't mattered and might never matter that > > > the FreeBSD IP situation is so shabby, I suppose because it sends the > > > message that it's all essentially a Gentlemen's Agreement, with only a > > > few violators who are more-or-less tolerated. > > > > > > > It is not clear that there is a way - as things stand - to get to a point > > where this wouldnot be the case. In appears very doubtful there is such a > > way unless you can get to get everybody whose code has been ever commited > > to send in a real written on paper copyright transfer, the chances of > > which are essentialy 0, even should you be able to trace down all involved. > > Copyright transfer is certainly not required if the code was released > by the original author under a suitable free software licence > (BSD/GPL/LGPL or others that permit FreeBSD to redistribute them). > All that is required is that you retain the author's copyright > statement in the source files. Required for what? For use of the code as we are all doing, sure, no argument. The paragraph above was about his perception of the code being in a shoddy situation due to apparent attribution of copyright to a body in a way that does not actually cause the transfer of copyright to said body (whetever it exists as a legal / physical entity anywhere or not). I just pointed out that the reversal of such situation is essentialy impossible even if such was desirable (which I doubt it is) or tried. And no, IMHO there is no real reason to even try. > > You can of course not do this with copyrighted material in general. > It is the free software licence that allows you to do it if you abide > by its conditions. > > If the claim is that there is code in the tree whose licensing status > is doubtful, you should point out that code. > I have made no such claim - and I heavily doubt there is such code. I did not make any claims at all about code, only about the copyright ownership and that it essentialy remains in the hands of the developers. Which is ok. And no, I don't really think there is much point in having long discussions over this... [snip - "umm, yes"] > > Rahul > From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 15:35:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0C116A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from woozle.rinet.ru (woozle.rinet.ru [195.54.192.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150E543D31; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:35:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woozle.rinet.ru (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i09NZfNq091810; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:35:42 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from marck@rinet.ru) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:35:41 +0300 (MSK) From: Dmitry Morozovsky To: Doug Rabson In-Reply-To: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> Message-ID: <20040110023448.A86447@woozle.rinet.ru> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> X-NCC-RegID: ru.rinet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: Mark Murray Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:35:56 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Doug Rabson wrote: DR> I've been re-evaluating the current subversion over the last couple of DR> weeks and its holding up pretty well so far. It still misses the DR> repeated merge thing that p4 does so well but in practice, merging does DR> seem to be a lot easier than with CVS due to the repository-wide DR> revision numbering system - that makes it easy to remember when your DR> last merge happened so that you don't merge a change twice. DR> DR> The three main showstoppers for moving FreeBSD to subversion would be: DR> DR> 1. A replacement for cvsup. Probably quite doable using svnadmin DR> dump and load. DR> 2. Support for $FreeBSD$ - user-specified keywords are not supported DR> and won't be until after svn-1.0 by the looks of things. DR> 3. Converting the repository. This is a tricky one - I tried the DR> current version of the migration scripts and they barfed and died DR> pretty quickly. Still, I'm pretty sure that the svn developers DR> are planning to fix most of those problems. From mailing-list DR> archives, it appears that they are using our cvs tree as test DR> material for the migration scripts. For the third point, take a look at http://lev.serebryakov.spb.ru/refinecvs/refinecvs-0.71.763.tar.g The author uses FreeBSD repository as main test field ;-) Sincerely, D.Marck [DM5020, MCK-RIPE, DM3-RIPN] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *** Dmitry Morozovsky --- D.Marck --- Wild Woozle --- marck@rinet.ru *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 17:11:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A1C16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from webhost.drapple.com (webhost.drapple.com [204.200.26.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A8443D49 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:11:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from patrick@freebsd.org) Received: from webmail.intothewind.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by webhost.drapple.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with SMTP id i0A1BG5v029740; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:11:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from patrick@freebsd.org) Received: from 68.48.248.125 (SquirrelMail authenticated user patrick) by webmail.garvinhartley.net with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:11:17 -0500 (GMT+5) Message-ID: <33167.68.48.248.125.1073697077.squirrel@webmail.garvinhartley.net> In-Reply-To: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> References: <20040109203839.GK5994@freepuppy.bellavista.cz> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:11:17 -0500 (GMT+5) From: "Patrick Gardella" To: "Roman Neuhauser" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal cc: freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: beastie boot menu, 4th (forth) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: patrick@freebsd.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:11:28 -0000 I go through the love/"why am I spending my time learning an obscure language" kind of relationship. :) If you want to buy books, good ones are: http://www.forth.com/Content/Handbook/Handbook.html http://www.forth.com/Content/fat/fat.html You can get PDF versions if you download the trial version of Swift Forth. Or you can pick up a few on Amazon. Starting Forth is the classic intro (by Leo Brodie) Thinking Forth is the follow on. Patrick > Here's the question perhaps more appropriate for hackers@: > > I looked into ripping the ascii-art out, but am quite scared. However, > forth looks like it's an interesting (love/hate kind of thing) language, > and I'd like to get my hands on it. Can anyone recommend good (or just > any, really) introductory material? google quickly degrades into misses, > and just a few even of those. From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 17:24:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D45B16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from saturn.criticalmagic.com (saturn.criticalmagic.com [68.213.16.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D8143D62 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:24:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richardcoleman@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (titan.criticalmagic.com [68.213.16.23]) by saturn.criticalmagic.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726153BD2A for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:24:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3FFF5438.40709@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:24:08 -0500 From: Richard Coleman Organization: Critical Magic, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> In-Reply-To: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: richardcoleman@mindspring.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:24:05 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > All, > > Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to install > floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the > Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to > constantly battle the floppies. > > FreeBSD/i386 is the only port left that generates install floppies. > Their primary purpose is to fascilitate installing FreeBSD on systems > where a CDROM is either not available or is incompatible with the > 'Non-Emulated El Torito' boot method that we use on our CDs. Systems that > cannot boot these CDs are typically those that are also not certified for > WinNT4, Win2K, or WinXP. Thus, nearly all machines produced after 1997 > can boot our CDs. > > It is certainly possible to run FreeBSD 5.x on machines of this and prior > vintage, and I certainly do not want to dispute or question any motives > here. However, the number of machines in this category is steadily > declining as time goes on, while the effort put into supporting install > floppies seems to be on the rise. I certainly do not want to orphan these > machines, so we need to find a compromise. > > One solution is to find a dedicated 'floppy maintainer' that will > frequently assess the floppies during the normal developement periods and > work closely with the Release Engineering team to ensure that there are > few surprises when it's time to cut a release. I would expect this person > to develop and execute a test plan that covers all of the common aspects > of installing via floppy: basic sanity checks, loading drivers, installing > via the various mechanisms, etc. This person should also be comfortable > with modifying makefiles and the sysinstall source. > > The other solution is to replace install floppies with an 'Emulated El > Torito' CD image. I'm not going to go into the differences between > 'non-emulated' and 'emulated' except to say that 'emulated' is the method > used on FreeBSD 4.x (and prior), Win95, and Win98. Virtually every system > in existance that supports a CDROM supports this method. This image would > contain the loader, kernel, and MFS root, just like the current > 'bootonly.iso' image, but would be configured for emulated booting. Users > could download this image, burn it, boot it, and then install FreeBSD just > like they normally would. Of course this adds the requirement of needing > a CD burner, but these devices are becoming common enough that it could > be a reasonable expectation. > > Switching to this method doesn't entirely remove the headache of release > floppies, but it does make it signficantly easier to deal with them. The > 'emulated' method actually uses a 2.88MB floppy image that combines the > first two 1.44MB floppies that we traditionally produce. By combining > them, we have a bit more flexibility since the driver modules that are on > the second floppy can go back into the kernel image and benefit from the > compression that happens there. > > So, this is something to consider before 5.3. After that, we are > stuck with the consequences of whatever we choose (or don't choose) for > the entire 5.x lifespan. I do not cherish the thought of fighting > floppies for another 2-3 years. I'm happy to work with someone who steps > forward and is committed to maintaining the floppies as they are today. > Otherwise, we need to seriously consider the alternative. > > Thanks, > > Scott I apologize if this is a dumb question. But rather than using two floppies during the install process, why not three or four? Richard Coleman richardcoleman@mindspring.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 17:37:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F082616A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.185]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB6A43D66; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Received: from [212.227.126.209] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Af848-0005C9-00; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:28 +0100 Received: from [80.132.227.119] (helo=Gatekeeper.FreeBSD.org) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Af848-0005Of-00; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:28 +0100 Received: from StefanEsser.FreeBSD.org (StefanEsser [192.168.0.10]) by Gatekeeper.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37AA75F18; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:10 +0100 (CET) Received: by StefanEsser.FreeBSD.org (Postfix, from userid 200) id A9C762428; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:37:09 +0100 From: Stefan =?iso-8859-1?Q?E=DFer?= To: Sean Farley Message-ID: <20040110013709.GA1810@StefanEsser.FreeBSD.org> References: <1073582974.37229.8.camel@herring.nlsystems.com> <20040109113432.R1511@thor.farley.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109113432.R1511@thor.farley.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:fa3fae9b6ca38d745862a668565919f6 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:37:44 -0000 On 2004-01-09 11:38 -0600, Sean Farley wrote: > I admit to having not tried it, but I wonder how well OpenCM > (http://www.opencm.org/) would compare. I think it would have a smaller > footprint than Subversion. I have prepared a port of OpenCM, but didn't have time to test it, yet. For that reason, I have not yet imported it into the ports repository. Just in case somebody wants to test OpenCM (or my port ;-) Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 17:59:43 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFC016A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from saturn.criticalmagic.com (saturn.criticalmagic.com [68.213.16.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA6F43D5A for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:59:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from richardcoleman@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (titan.criticalmagic.com [68.213.16.23]) by saturn.criticalmagic.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649E23BD2A for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:59:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3FFF5C93.9010605@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 20:59:47 -0500 From: Richard Coleman Organization: Critical Magic, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <3FFF5438.40709@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3FFF5438.40709@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: richardcoleman@mindspring.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:59:43 -0000 Richard Coleman wrote: > Scott Long wrote: > >> All, >> >> Every FreeBSD release cycle in the past year has hit bumps due to install >> floppy problems. This is becoming more and more of a burden on the >> Release Engineering Team, as we simply do not have the resources to >> constantly battle the floppies. >> >> FreeBSD/i386 is the only port left that generates install floppies. >> Their primary purpose is to fascilitate installing FreeBSD on systems >> where a CDROM is either not available or is incompatible with the >> 'Non-Emulated El Torito' boot method that we use on our CDs. Systems >> that >> cannot boot these CDs are typically those that are also not certified for >> WinNT4, Win2K, or WinXP. Thus, nearly all machines produced after 1997 >> can boot our CDs. >> >> It is certainly possible to run FreeBSD 5.x on machines of this and prior >> vintage, and I certainly do not want to dispute or question any motives >> here. However, the number of machines in this category is steadily >> declining as time goes on, while the effort put into supporting install >> floppies seems to be on the rise. I certainly do not want to orphan >> these >> machines, so we need to find a compromise. >> >> One solution is to find a dedicated 'floppy maintainer' that will >> frequently assess the floppies during the normal developement periods and >> work closely with the Release Engineering team to ensure that there are >> few surprises when it's time to cut a release. I would expect this >> person >> to develop and execute a test plan that covers all of the common aspects >> of installing via floppy: basic sanity checks, loading drivers, >> installing >> via the various mechanisms, etc. This person should also be comfortable >> with modifying makefiles and the sysinstall source. >> >> The other solution is to replace install floppies with an 'Emulated El >> Torito' CD image. I'm not going to go into the differences between >> 'non-emulated' and 'emulated' except to say that 'emulated' is the method >> used on FreeBSD 4.x (and prior), Win95, and Win98. Virtually every >> system >> in existance that supports a CDROM supports this method. This image >> would >> contain the loader, kernel, and MFS root, just like the current >> 'bootonly.iso' image, but would be configured for emulated booting. >> Users >> could download this image, burn it, boot it, and then install FreeBSD >> just >> like they normally would. Of course this adds the requirement of needing >> a CD burner, but these devices are becoming common enough that it could >> be a reasonable expectation. >> >> Switching to this method doesn't entirely remove the headache of release >> floppies, but it does make it signficantly easier to deal with them. The >> 'emulated' method actually uses a 2.88MB floppy image that combines the >> first two 1.44MB floppies that we traditionally produce. By combining >> them, we have a bit more flexibility since the driver modules that are on >> the second floppy can go back into the kernel image and benefit from the >> compression that happens there. >> >> So, this is something to consider before 5.3. After that, we are >> stuck with the consequences of whatever we choose (or don't choose) for >> the entire 5.x lifespan. I do not cherish the thought of fighting >> floppies for another 2-3 years. I'm happy to work with someone who steps >> forward and is committed to maintaining the floppies as they are today. >> Otherwise, we need to seriously consider the alternative. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Scott > > > I apologize if this is a dumb question. But rather than using two > floppies during the install process, why not three or four? > > Richard Coleman > richardcoleman@mindspring.com Sorry, I just got caught up on the list, and see that this has already been discussed. Ignore the question. Richard Coleman richardcoleman@mindspring.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 19:10:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F51416A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bilver.wjv.com (user38.net339.fl.sprint-hsd.net [65.40.24.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358AD43D31 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:10:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bv@bilver.wjv.com) Received: from bilver.wjv.com (localhost.wjv.com [127.0.0.1]) by bilver.wjv.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0A3ARBe076369 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:10:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bv@bilver.wjv.com) Received: (from bv@localhost) by bilver.wjv.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0A3ARkp076353 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:10:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bv) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:10:27 -0500 From: Bill Vermillion To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040110031027.GA64321@wjv.com> References: <20040110011146.738DA16A4E5@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040110011146.738DA16A4E5@hub.freebsd.org> Organization: W.J.Vermillion / Orlando - Winter Park ReplyTo: bv@wjv.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on bilver.wjv.com Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: bv@wjv.com List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:10:33 -0000 Somewhere around Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 17:11 , the world stopped and listened as freebsd-hackers-request@freebsd.org graced us with this profound tidbit of wisdom that would fulfill the enjoyment of future generations: > ------------------------------ > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:57:56 +0100 > From: Martin Nilsson > Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > This is getting stupid! > This discussion is just like when the i386 support was removed > from the GENERIC kernel, a lot of noise about old systems that > wouldn't be able to run (or benefit) from FreeBSD 5 anyway. There is a difference between old systems and new systems that don't have CDs. > >>And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD > >>burners, and even if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun > >>intended ;) a CD blank just to install an OS, when we can just > >>(re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the LAN from a local FTP > >>mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > I fail to see the difference in required labour between creating > two floppies or a CD-R/RW disc. Most new machines ship with > CD-RW drives today, the only boxes that can't boot from a CD are > early Pentium1 class and frankly why run 5.x or 6.x on those? I have several PIII's that can't boot from a CD because there is no room for a CD. These are 1RU units in a colo. A floppy, two HDs, on the back two NICs, a serial connector, and a keyboard connector. The iNTEL 1RU units don't even have graphics cards and the BIOS boot messgages are routed out the serial port which changes to true serial after POST. All are in a colo facility - and I suspect many other have the same problem. The only 1RU units I've personally seen with CD units in them are the little Sun pizza box Netras - SPARC platform - that a colo client had has front ends for their G4s [running Web Objects] and the large Sun running an Oracle back end for a data base. And those CD players were custom made - and exceptionally thin - and instead of a drawer that came out, the spindle mechanism came out that you put the CD onto and then it slid back in. Space is a big consideration in those small units. All my 2RU machine have CDs in them. I'd hate to have to think of taking the devices out of the racks and then the building to install a new OS. It's no fun with a floppy and minimal work space in the racks but I've only had to access them via floppy about twice, as I can rebuild and reinstall remotely. As long as I don't have to remake a file system I'm in good shape. But CD's just aren't always in 'industrial' type machines - as the only time they'd be used is during install. Luckily at least a couple will support PXE. Not all will be that lucky. > End of freebsd-hackers Digest, Vol 42, Issue 10 > *********************************************** Bill -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 19:50:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB6B16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pear.silverwraith.com (66-214-182-79.la-cbi.charterpipeline.net [66.214.182.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4EB43D3F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:50:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lists-freebsd@silverwraith.com) Received: from avleen by pear.silverwraith.com with local (Exim 4.30; FreeBSD) id 1AfA8s-0004rK-Or; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:50:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:50:30 -0800 From: Avleen Vig To: Julian Elischer Message-ID: <20040110035030.GY53429@silverwraith.com> References: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:50:35 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 02:08:08PM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > PXE boot against an automated backup/restore service would be much more > > useful for this. > > Assuming they have PXE and a supported card.. One point that hasn't been made here against PXE (well, not against it, but not in favour it): What if you dont' have another server to PXE boot from? What if it's the only PC in your house? PXE booting might be fine for a multi-server network, but when it's the only machine you have at home and you don't have a CD burner, you'd be screwed :) If the etherboot code can be made to use FTP, that would be good. Otherwise, can we have the mirror servers allow tftp? That would fix this quite easily. I might be willing to find hosting for a "boot image" provided it is small, as scott suggested it might be (3mb?) From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 21:00:33 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D919E16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B90743D4C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 2F2E95C7B0; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:33 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040110050033.GP9623@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: help with linking please X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:00:34 -0000 This is driving me insane... I would like to provide a client with a .o file so that he can link static against my library. Unfortunatly I need to hide nearly all the symbols in my object file. For a shared object this works out super easy, all I do is generate the .so file, then run strip -N on each symbol I want to nuke. I'm having a hell of a time doing this so I can produce a static .o or .a with most of the symbols stripped. Two problems seem to be that even if I use "ld -r -o main.o obj1.o obj2.c libfoo.a" then I can not strip symbols in obj1.o that are referenced from obj2.o even after I combine the object files. Any hints? -- - Alfred Perlstein - Research Engineering Development Inc. - email: bright@mu.org cell: 408-480-4684 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 21:38:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E01116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ganymede.hub.org (u46n208.hfx.eastlink.ca [24.222.46.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FF743D54 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4077D379CD; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:34:38 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D65537992; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:34:38 -0400 (AST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:34:38 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Michel TALON In-Reply-To: <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Message-ID: <20040110013313.Q51801@ganymede.hub.org> References: <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:38:02 -0000 On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Michel TALON wrote: > > And, further, some of us don't have (and don't want) CD burners, and even > > if we had 'em, don't want to burn (no pun intended ;) a CD blank just to > > install an OS, when we can just (re-)use 2 floppies and do it across the > > LAN from a local FTP mirror, which is as fast as a CD drive anyway. > > Sincerely FreeBSD developers have more important tasks than spending > hours to fit an installable system on floppies. When FreeBSD used > one floppy, it was tolerable to do floppy installs. With 2 or 3 floppies > it is awfully slow, i have done once and will never do it again. I still use floppies to do my installs, and find getting the base system up over FTP to generally take <30minutes *shrug* Faster, IMHO, then downloading the ISO and burning it to a CD .. ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 19:27:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DC116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13422.mail.yahoo.com (web13422.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0752843D67 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.171.232.249] by web13422.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:27:31 PST Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:27:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: Sean Farley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:45:46 -0800 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:27:40 -0000 Hi; There is a comparison here: http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html I think there are compelling reasons to try subversion, but we have to wait for a 1.0 Release, and this would be something that should be done gradually.. for example moving the ports tree first. cheers, Pedro. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 22:40:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B2816A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C336A43D55; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0A6eCET008139; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:40:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:40:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20040109.234004.70461791.imp@bsdimp.com> To: rsidd@online.fr From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> References: <20040109224028.P32387-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: underway@comcast.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Copyrights X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:40:17 -0000 In message: <20040109223410.GA19314@online.fr> Rahul Siddharthan writes: : As for the "copyright (C) the FreeBSD project" bit: As I understand, : editors/publishers who compile anthologies can claim copyright on the : anthologies (the act of anthologisation itself being a creative : process) even if the individual articles in the anthology are : copyright by their respective authors. This is exactly correct. There's no 'overriding' or 'stealing' other people's copyright going on. This copyright assertion is on the software that's collected, as a whole, just like a collection of short stories have copyrights be the individual owners as well as the folks that published the book. Go to a bookstore and look at a collection of short stories by different authors and you'll usually discover that there are many copyrights listed: one by the publisher, and one for each of the stories by the author of the story. This is indeed different than the GPL where copyright is typically assigned to a third party for purposes of enforcement (usually the FSF). Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 22:51:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8684416A4CE; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B18343D54; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i0A6p07B059279; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:00 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0A6ossr059278; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:50:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:50:54 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Message-ID: <20040110065054.GS25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <3FFF1BEE.9090400@freebsd.org> <20040109222654.GS48603@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109222654.GS48603@over-yonder.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:51:12 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 04:26:54PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 02:23:58PM -0700 I heard the voice of >Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: >> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: >> > >> >yes, we need something like >> > >> >struct pci_device_info { >> > uint32_t pciid; >> > char brand[64]; >> > char model[64]; >> >} my_supported_devices[] = { >> > { 0x12345678, "Acme", "Nutcracker 2000" } >> >}; >> > >> >which is placed in a separate ELF section so we can extract it from >> >the module. >> > >> >except it needs to be flexible enough to support other buses than PCI >> >(SBUS, USB...) >> > >> >DES >> >> Yeah, this is a good suggestion, the only problem being in making it >> flexible enough to not be a burden on the drivers. Many drivers >> keep one or more flag elements in their tables to flag hardware than >> needs special attention. I'm sure that there are also countless other >> pieces of state that drivers would want to associate with a table like >> this. > >I was poking around a bit (in my completely kernel-fu-lacking way) at >this last night. For one thing, we could avoid the struct definition, >and instead just mandate a few fields in the structure with given names >as above. Then, write a little helper .c file with a main() that goes >through the array (with the name given as a preprocessor -D or something) >and spits the info out into a text file. Compile it up and run it for >each module as we compile it, and assemble the results in a big reference >file. Then, a userland program (like sysinstall, in this case) can >easily poke through that text file to find and describe the drivers for >devices found. This is more what I was thinking in terms of. As well as the PCI ID and brand/model, we probably would need: - a priority field, so a generic driver can grab a device if a more specific driver isn't found - the option to use card ID instead of chip ID - wild-carding (maybe a bitmask) And this still isn't enough to identify things like the Realtek 8139C+ chips that would prefer re(4) instead of rl(4) (though rl(4) is good enough to install FreeBSD). Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 23:01:55 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797D116A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B21F43D4C for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:01:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 79911 invoked by uid 1002); 10 Jan 2004 07:01:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 07:01:51 -0000 Message-ID: <3FFFA2F9.3040707@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:00:09 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Jeremy References: <200401091400.40550.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <3FFE5211.5040606@freebsd.org> <20040109.075929.90380697.imp@bsdimp.com> <20040109210153.GP25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <3FFF1BEE.9090400@freebsd.org> <20040109222654.GS48603@over-yonder.net> <20040110065054.GS25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20040110065054.GS25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:01:55 -0000 Peter Jeremy wrote: > On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 04:26:54PM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >>On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 02:23:58PM -0700 I heard the voice of >>Scott Long, and lo! it spake thus: >> >>>Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: >>> >>>>yes, we need something like >>>> >>>>struct pci_device_info { >>>> uint32_t pciid; >>>> char brand[64]; >>>> char model[64]; >>>>} my_supported_devices[] = { >>>> { 0x12345678, "Acme", "Nutcracker 2000" } >>>>}; >>>> >>>>which is placed in a separate ELF section so we can extract it from >>>>the module. >>>> >>>>except it needs to be flexible enough to support other buses than PCI >>>>(SBUS, USB...) >>>> >>>>DES >>> >>>Yeah, this is a good suggestion, the only problem being in making it >>>flexible enough to not be a burden on the drivers. Many drivers >>>keep one or more flag elements in their tables to flag hardware than >>>needs special attention. I'm sure that there are also countless other >>>pieces of state that drivers would want to associate with a table like >>>this. >> >>I was poking around a bit (in my completely kernel-fu-lacking way) at >>this last night. For one thing, we could avoid the struct definition, >>and instead just mandate a few fields in the structure with given names >>as above. Then, write a little helper .c file with a main() that goes >>through the array (with the name given as a preprocessor -D or something) >>and spits the info out into a text file. Compile it up and run it for >>each module as we compile it, and assemble the results in a big reference >>file. Then, a userland program (like sysinstall, in this case) can >>easily poke through that text file to find and describe the drivers for >>devices found. > > > This is more what I was thinking in terms of. As well as the PCI ID > and brand/model, we probably would need: > - a priority field, so a generic driver can grab a device if a more > specific driver isn't found > - the option to use card ID instead of chip ID > - wild-carding (maybe a bitmask) > > And this still isn't enough to identify things like the Realtek 8139C+ > chips that would prefer re(4) instead of rl(4) (though rl(4) is good > enough to install FreeBSD). > > Peter > Right, since there are at least 5 identifying fields in the PCI config space that might need to be looked at. Lets not repeat the mistakes of vendors like RedHat that require that a duplicate table be maintained (with only 2 of the five fields!). Whether our tables are generated through script magic or through a stuctured API doesn't matter so long at it adds minimal burden to the driver maintainership and is guaranteed to always be in sync. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 23:19:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27CDB16A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1AE43D45 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:19:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i0A7JS7B059312; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:19:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0A7JRou059311; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:19:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:19:27 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Martin Nilsson Message-ID: <20040110071927.GT25474@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFF23E4.8090803@gneto.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:19:36 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 10:57:56PM +0100, Martin Nilsson wrote: >This discussion is just like when the i386 support was removed from the >GENERIC kernel, a lot of noise about old systems that wouldn't be able >to run (or benefit) from FreeBSD 5 anyway. There's a big jump between i386 systems and Pentium I/II systems. I agree that any "standard" i386 syystem would be very unlikely to be able to run a generic FreeBSD kernel - the ones that are left are in embedded systems where they need customised install environments already. An old P-I or P-II system is still perfectly adequate to run FreeBSD - and will be for some time yet. They make ideal firewalls, print servers, terminal servers, low-end fileservers etc. (My home firewall is a 486). I agree that you wouldn't want to run OpenOffice or Mozilla on one but that doesn't make them unusable. >I fail to see the difference in required labour between creating two >floppies or a CD-R/RW disc. Most new machines ship with CD-RW drives >today, the only boxes that can't boot from a CD are early Pentium1 class >and frankly why run 5.x or 6.x on those? In a corporate environment, machines are very likely to not include a CD-RW (and might not even include a CD-ROM). As for why run 5.x, how about: 1) because you want some of the features in 5.x - a fileserver could benefit enormously from ACLs, UFS2 and snapshots (to name a few) even if it's only an old P-I. 2) for support. 4.x will probably be officially de-supported sometime in 2005. At that point, I either need to accept the overhead of handling (eg) security fixes myself or migrate to 5.x Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jan 9 23:25:40 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA2216A4CE for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.server.rpi.edu (smtp4.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD9A43D1F for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:25:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp4.server.rpi.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0A7PTMr023690; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:25:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:25:27 -0500 To: giffunip@asme.org, Sean Farley From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:25:40 -0000 At 7:27 PM -0800 1/9/04, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Hi; > >There is a comparison here: >http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html > >I think there are compelling reasons to try subversion, >but we have to wait for a 1.0 Release, and this would be >something that should be done gradually.. for example >moving the ports tree first. That's a pretty major test! Could we perhaps pick off something smaller? The "projects" repository, for instance? (or is that still tied to the base-system?) (I am very interested in subversion, but it is still something I need to learn more about...) -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 00:32:54 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B759516A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vitsch.net (b74143.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.74.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A581E43D55 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Received: from FreeBSD.Danovitsch.LAN (b83007.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.83.7]) by Vitsch.net (8.12.3p2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i0A8WSXe031866; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:32:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN]" To: Vladimir Terziev Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:32:48 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20040109180305.18c23192.vlady@sun-fish.com> In-Reply-To: <20040109180305.18c23192.vlady@sun-fish.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200401100932.48758.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: UNIX / BSD parallel port programming documentation X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:32:54 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 17:03, Vladimir Terziev wrote: > Hi hackers, > > =09I have to develop small server which has to manage custom microcontr= oller > via parallel port interface. > =09Does anyone know good manual/documentation about UNIX / BSD parallel= port > programming ? Most of it should already be on your system, have a look at the man-pages= =2E If you want to use the ppbus interface to control the port : man lpt(4), ppbus(4) and ppi(4) If you want to directly address the ports registers yourself without usin= g the=20 driver interface : man io(4) and have a look at /usr/include/machine/cpufunc.h On FreeBSD you need to have opened /dev/io before your program is allowed= to=20 do direct IO to any device, and on Linux you need to successfully call=20 ioperm() first. grtz, Daan From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 01:22:35 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4873C16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (reverse-213-146-113-119.dialin.kamp-dsl.de [213.146.113.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D4D43D62 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:22:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nicolas@dauerreden.de) Received: from pc5.i.0x5.de (nicolas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0A9MPR7042843 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:22:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas@pc5.i.0x5.de) Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.i.0x5.de (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i0A9MPDX042842 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:22:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nicolas) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:22:25 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040110092225.GA40166@pc5.i.0x5.de> Mail-Followup-To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040107235737.I32227@pooker.samsco.home> <3FFF5438.40709@mindspring.com> <3FFF5C93.9010605@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3FFF5C93.9010605@mindspring.com> X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-SECURITY: Never trust a running system User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:22:35 -0000 * Richard Coleman [2004-01-09 20:59 -0500]: > Richard Coleman wrote: > >I apologize if this is a dumb question. But rather than using two > >floppies during the install process, why not three or four? > > > >Richard Coleman > >richardcoleman@mindspring.com > > Sorry, I just got caught up on the list, and see that this has already > been discussed. Ignore the question. I'm not sure that the question is dumb. I think /usr/src/lib/libstand/splitfs.c should work for this. From the commit message of it: |Add splitfs vfs layer into libstand, which allows loading big kernels |and |modules split across several physical medias. Following is how it |works: | |The splitfs code, when asked to open "foo" looks for a file |"foo.split" |which is a text file containing a list of filenames and media names, |e.g. | | foo.aa "Kernel floppy 1" | foo.ab "Kernel floppy 2" | foo.ac "Kernel and modules floppy" | |For each file segment, the process is: | |- try to open the file |- prompt "Insert the disk labelled and press any key..." |- try to open the file |- return error if file could not be located I just took the 4.9-RELEASE install disks and splited mfsroot.gz into two files put them onto two disks. They booted without any problem to sysinstall. So it seems the code to use more disks is already there. Nicolas From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 03:17:11 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6056916A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:17:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0646143D4C; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:17:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id B75B75327; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:17:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id DABF2530E; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:16:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 2C3E133C9A; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:16:59 +0100 (CET) To: Alfred Perlstein References: <20040110050033.GP9623@elvis.mu.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:16:58 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040110050033.GP9623@elvis.mu.org> (Alfred Perlstein's message of "Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:00:33 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: help with linking please X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:17:11 -0000 Alfred Perlstein writes: > I'm having a hell of a time doing this so I can produce a static > .o or .a with most of the symbols stripped. Two problems seem to be > that even if I use "ld -r -o main.o obj1.o obj2.c libfoo.a" then I > can not strip symbols in obj1.o that are referenced from obj2.o > even after I combine the object files. You can link all your object files into one: $ ld -r -o all.o foo.o bar.o baz.o then strip unwanted symbols with {objcopy,strip} -N (or better yet, use {objcopy,strip} -K to strip all symbols except the ones you want to export) this is precisely what we do with klds to reduce namespace pollution. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 03:24:14 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8536816A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from oneplusone.ch (oneplusone.ch [212.55.208.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC30143D41 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 03:24:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ast@marabu.ch) Received: from oneplusone.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by oneplusone.ch (8.12.9p1/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0ABO4i3009800; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:24:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ast@marabu.ch) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by oneplusone.ch (8.12.9p1/8.12.9/Submit) with UUCP id i0ABO3IC009799; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:24:03 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ast@marabu.ch) Received: from marabu.marabu.ch (marabu.marabu.ch [192.168.21.3]) by nano.marabu.ch (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0ABLWux019127; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:21:33 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ast@marabu.marabu.ch) Received: by marabu.marabu.ch (8.7.5/20001028-ast-8.3) id MAA16839; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:21:31 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200401101121.MAA16839@marabu.marabu.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v124.8483.6) Content-Type: text/plain X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b6) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.124.8483.6) From: Adrian Steinmann Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:21:29 +0100 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Organization: Webgroup Consulting AG, Apollostrasse 21, 8032 Zurich X-Phone-Numbers: Switzerland, Tel +41 1 380 30 83 Fax +41 1 380 30 85 Subject: Remote installs without FD/CD X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:24:14 -0000 The "Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x" thread prompts me to report how we have been upgrading FreeBSD remotely since FreeBSD 3.x. First, we build: . custom minimal kernels for each HW type in the field; we store this kernel in /boot/maint/k.HW.gz . custom MD image for each machine with networking and SSH; we store this MD image in /boot/maint/fs.HW_m.gz when we want to go into "maintenance mode", we simply tell the boot loader to: unload load /boot/maint/k.HW load -t md_image /boot/maint/fs.HW_m set vfs.root.mountfrom=ufs:/dev/md0c autoboot 10 which brings up the machine in ramdisk yet networked, ready to be upgraded. It is reassuring but not necessary to have console access, since the above loader commands can be put into /boot/loader.rc in anticipation of the maintenance boot. The MD image employs a crunchgen which includes /bin/sh, SSHv1, atacontrol, camcontrol, fdisk, disklabel, newfs, tunefs, and tar among other utilities to partition/label/populate ESDI, SCSI, and DOC2K "mass" storage. We prepare stripped down 32MB and 64MB "Styx distributions" (FreeBSD plus selected ports minus lots of stuff) as tarballs for the population. Until now (4.x, i.e., -stable), we have been able to make single bootfloppies containing the boot loader, k.HW.gz, and fs.HW_m.gz for all our hardware types. We create 2 floppies for "GENERIC" hardware (i.e., with fs.GENERIC_m.gz on the 2nd floppy). However, we rarely use such floppies and hence will probably drop them altogether as we go to 5.x. This will remove the space restriction on the MD image, opening up many new possibilities. As a spin off, we make a special ISO image which is a stock miniinst.iso including the GENERIC Styx MD image and tarballs so an "offline Styx install" can be done by booting from that CD and choosing "Fixit from Live CD" in sysinstall. If there is interest, I can furnish a src snapshot of our extensible build system mentioned in http://www.styx.ch/workshop.html which is a step-by-step description on how we do remote upgrades. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 06:08:24 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F1A16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vitsch.net (b74143.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.74.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D8243D41 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:08:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Received: from FreeBSD.Danovitsch.LAN (b83007.upc-b.chello.nl [212.83.83.7]) by Vitsch.net (8.12.3p2/8.11.3) with ESMTP id i0AE82Xe034592 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:08:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from Danovitsch@Vitsch.net) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: "Daan Vreeken [PA4DAN]" To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:08:22 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200401101508.22640.Danovitsch@Vitsch.net> Subject: kernel threads and printf locking question X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:08:24 -0000 Hi, I am writing a kernel module in which I have created a kernel thread with= =20 kthread_create. For debugging I have added a couple of printf's in the=20 thread-routine. Running the module on a single-proc system works fine, bu= t=20 when running it on one of my SMP machines the console freezes after a cou= ple=20 of seconds. I have been looking through the archives and through some other drivers (= for=20 example randomdev.c uses a kthread and printf's from it ). I found a vers= ion=20 of randomdev.c with google that lock's Giant while calling printf, but=20 randomdev.c in my src-tree has no locking there. (I'm using 5.1-RELEASE) Right now I have changed all printf's in my module into a macro-function = that=20 checks if ( curproc =3D=3D our thread ) and locks Giant if true, then pri= ntf's.=20 (since some of the routines get called both from the thread and from othe= r=20 places.) What is the current state of printf-locking when called from a kernel thr= ead?=20 Is locking Giant the only possible way to avoid problems on SMP systems, = or=20 is there a more fine-grained printf lock available? (on 5.1-RELEASE or=20 -current) thanks, Daan From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 06:47:05 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D616F16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.kukulies.org (www.kukulies.org [213.146.112.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1427643D5A for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:47:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuku@www.kukulies.org) Received: from www.kukulies.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.kukulies.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0AEl2Qh023807 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:47:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kuku@www.kukulies.org) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by www.kukulies.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0AEl2Kl023806 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:47:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kuku) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:47:01 +0100 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20040110144701.GA23790@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Subject: Unix turns 0x40000000 ! X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:47:05 -0000 Something for us all to smile or to celebrate! |Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 11:16:28 +0000 (GMT) |From: Scott Howard |Subject: Unix turns 0x40000000 ! | |In just over 26 hours (Sun Jan 11 00:37:04 2004 GMT to be exact) UNIX |will bust through the 111111111111111111111111111111 (binary) seconds |barrier and celebrate it's 0x40000000 second birthday! | |HAPPY BIRTHDAY UNIX! :) | |This also means that we're exactly half-way between 1-Jan-1970 and |19-Jan-2038 when 32-bit Unix will die. Time for a mid-life crisis perhaps? :) | | | Scott. | | |----- End forwarded message ----- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 10:07:28 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46CE516A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhub-c5.tc.umn.edu (mhub-c5.tc.umn.edu [160.94.128.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A4B43D39 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: from [24.107.70.120] by mhub-c5.tc.umn.edu with ESMTP for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:07:25 -0600 Message-Id: <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:07:08 -0600 From: Ryan Sommers User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20040109 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:07:28 -0000 Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 7:27 PM -0800 1/9/04, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > >> Hi; >> >> There is a comparison here: >> http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html >> >> I think there are compelling reasons to try subversion, >> but we have to wait for a 1.0 Release, and this would be >> something that should be done gradually.. for example >> moving the ports tree first. > > > That's a pretty major test! Could we perhaps pick off > something smaller? The "projects" repository, for > instance? (or is that still tied to the base-system?) > > (I am very interested in subversion, but it is still > something I need to learn more about...) > I haven't been following this too closely, so forgive me if this has been mentioned. Does Subversion support any type of transaction based committing? One of the frequent problems with CVS is when someone grabs source while someone is in the middle of a large or multi-part commit. -- Ryan Sommers ryans@gamersimpact.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 11:20:17 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF49216A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from infidyne.com (io.infidyne.com [212.112.161.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC88C43D2D for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter.schuller@infidyne.com) Received: (qmail 6313 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2004 19:20:23 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO scode.mine.nu) (scode@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 19:20:23 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scode.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B6486C03; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:20:18 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Schuller To: Ryan Sommers , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:20:17 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> In-Reply-To: <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401102020.17108.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:20:17 -0000 > I haven't been following this too closely, so forgive me if this has > been mentioned. Does Subversion support any type of transaction based > committing? Yes. Commits are atomic. Most of the noteworthy features of subversion are listed on the project front page: http://subversion.tigris.org/ -- / Peter Schuller, InfiDyne Technologies HB PGP userID: 0xE9758B7D or 'Peter Schuller ' Key retrieval: Send an E-Mail to getpgpkey@scode.org E-Mail: peter.schuller@infidyne.com Web: http://www.scode.org From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 11:23:36 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C4316A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4AA43D45 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:23:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id EE0E9530E; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:23:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id E3DE85308 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:23:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7325A33C9A; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:23:24 +0100 (CET) To: hackers@freebsd.org From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:23:24 +0100 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 Subject: diskless problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:23:36 -0000 I'm trying to set up a VIA C3-based mini-ITX box for diskless boot using isc-dhcpd 3.0 from ports. The kernel and modules load fine, but isc-dhcpd doesn't seem to answer the kernel's DHCP discover message. The following is a tcpdump of the traffic the DHCP server sees. I've removed the timestamps for legibility. The DHCP server is on 10.0.0.6, the TFTP and NFS server is on 10.0.0.4, and the client is on 10.0.0.9. 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|boot= p] 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|boot= p] arp who-has 10.0.0.4 tell 10.0.0.9 10.0.0.9.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] 10.0.0.6.67 > 10.0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 file ""[|b= ootp] [tos 0x10] 10.0.0.9.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] 10.0.0.6.67 > 10.0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 [|bootp] [= tos 0x10] at this point the kernel boots and prints Sending DHCP Discover packet from interface vr0 (00:40:63:c4:60:3d) and tcpdump shows this: 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0xffff0001 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] [ttl= 1] but no reply from isc-dhcpd. relevant excerpts from dhcpd.conf: option domain-name-servers 10.0.0.6; option subnet-mask 255.255.255.0; option broadcast-address 10.0.0.255; option routers 10.0.0.1; host via { hardware ethernet 00:40:63:c4:60:3d; fixed-address 10.0.0.9; next-server 10.0.0.4; filename "pxeboot"; option root-path "/via"; } DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 12:28:38 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8421916A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1A43D49 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0AKR1Ud092348; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:27:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i0AKR1De092345; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:27:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:27:01 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:28:38 -0000 On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > I'm trying to set up a VIA C3-based mini-ITX box for diskless boot using > isc-dhcpd 3.0 from ports. The kernel and modules load fine, but > isc-dhcpd doesn't seem to answer the kernel's DHCP discover message.=20 >=20 > The following is a tcpdump of the traffic the DHCP server sees. I've > removed the timestamps for legibility. The DHCP server is on 10.0.0.6, > the TFTP and NFS server is on 10.0.0.4, and the client is on 10.0.0.9.=20 >=20 > 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|bo= otp] > 0.0.0.0.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|bo= otp] > arp who-has 10.0.0.4 tell 10.0.0.9 > 10.0.0.9.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] > 10.0.0.6.67 > 10.0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 file ""[= |bootp] [tos 0x10] > 10.0.0.9.68 > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] > 10.0.0.6.67 > 10.0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 [|bootp]= [tos 0x10] Can you send "tcpdump -e" output? > at this point the kernel boots and prints >=20 > Sending DHCP Discover packet from interface vr0 (00:40:63:c4:60:3d) What kernel configuration are you using? Are there multiple ethernet devices in the system? Normally if you're using pxeboot for diskless booting, there's no need for the kernel or userspace to use DHCP: they inherit the DHCP settings provided by the pxeboot loader using the kernel environment. When using PXE, there's no need for any special kernel options, etc, you should just be able to use GENERIC.=20 Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 13:00:51 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE56C16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.server.rpi.edu (smtp4.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D7343D41 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp4.server.rpi.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0AL0hMr024535; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:00:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040110170550.34302.qmail@web13425.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040110170550.34302.qmail@web13425.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:00:42 -0500 To: giffunip@asme.org From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:00:51 -0000 At 9:05 AM -0800 1/10/04, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >--- Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > >> That's a pretty major test! Could we perhaps pick off > > something smaller? The "projects" repository, for > > instance? (or is that still tied to the base-system?) > >SVN is meant to be a replacement to CVS. The projects >repository is using perforce which happens to be a good >tool, ... Ah. I did not realize it was already using Perforce. Yeah, I would not suggest making that change. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 13:27:32 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9D416A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734BB43D2F; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 64D97530E; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:27:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 93D8C5308; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:27:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 22EAC33C6A; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:27:21 +0100 (CET) To: Robert Watson References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:27:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Robert Watson's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:27:01 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:27:32 -0000 Robert Watson writes: > Can you send "tcpdump -e" output? 22:18:14.884745 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 0.0.0.0.68 > 2= 55.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] 22:18:16.911162 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 0.0.0.0.68 > 2= 55.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] 22:18:16.919251 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0806 60: arp who-has 10.= 0.0.4 tell 10.0.0.9 22:18:17.134219 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 10.0.0.9.68 > = 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] 22:18:17.135119 8:0:2b:86:88:55 0:40:63:c4:60:3d 0800 348: 10.0.0.6.67 > 10= .0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 file ""[|bootp] [tos 0x10] 22:18:17.135621 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 10.0.0.9.68 > = 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] 22:18:17.136477 8:0:2b:86:88:55 0:40:63:c4:60:3d 0800 348: 10.0.0.6.67 > 10= .0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 [|bootp] [tos 0x10] 22:18:38.239936 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 1502: 0.0.0.0.68 > = 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0xffff0001 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] [ttl 1] > What kernel configuration are you using? Are there multiple ethernet > devices in the system? I followed the advice from the diskless(8) man page. There's only one interface, and tcpdump clearly shows that the DHCP server recieves a request but does not answer. > Normally if you're using pxeboot for diskless > booting, there's no need for the kernel or userspace to use DHCP: they > inherit the DHCP settings provided by the pxeboot loader using the kernel > environment. When using PXE, there's no need for any special kernel > options, etc, you should just be able to use GENERIC. I'll try again without the BOOTP options... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 13:36:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949A016A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 82-41-27-158.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk (82-41-27-158.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk [82.41.27.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1420243D1F for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:36:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org (spatula.flat [192.168.0.2]) by myriad.flat (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77F2C2; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:29:44 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4000701B.40102@cream.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:35:23 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Schuller References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> <200401102020.17108.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> In-Reply-To: <200401102020.17108.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Ryan Sommers cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:36:01 -0000 Peter Schuller wrote: > Most of the noteworthy features of subversion are listed on the project front > page: > > http://subversion.tigris.org/ A significant one of which is the fact that it's available under a BSD-style license. Meaning that the project wouldn't have to rely on more GPLed code. I wonder if our SCM would be brought into the base system or whether it would just be left in ports? Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:01:18 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C3216A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp4.server.rpi.edu (smtp4.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCAD43D31 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp4.server.rpi.edu (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i0AM1FMr032333; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:01:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4000701B.40102@cream.org> References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> <200401102020.17108.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <4000701B.40102@cream.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:01:13 -0500 To: Andrew Boothman From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:01:18 -0000 At 9:35 PM +0000 1/10/04, Andrew Boothman wrote: >Peter Schuller wrote: > >>Most of the noteworthy features of subversion are listed >>on the project front page: >> >> http://subversion.tigris.org/ > >A significant one of which is the fact that it's available >under a BSD-style license. Meaning that the project wouldn't >have to rely on more GPLed code. > >I wonder if our SCM would be brought into the base system or >whether it would just be left in ports? We haven't even started to *test* subversion yet, so I think it's a bit early to worry about this question! -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:06:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BEC16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1774043D1F for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0AM4lUd093743; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:04:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i0AM4lHU093740; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:04:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:04:47 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:06:26 -0000 On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Robert Watson writes: > > Can you send "tcpdump -e" output? >=20 > 22:18:14.884745 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 0.0.0.0.68 >= 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] > 22:18:16.911162 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 0.0.0.0.68 >= 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x64c4603d secs:4 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] > 22:18:16.919251 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0806 60: arp who-has 1= 0.0.0.4 tell 10.0.0.9 > 22:18:17.134219 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 10.0.0.9.68 = > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] > 22:18:17.135119 8:0:2b:86:88:55 0:40:63:c4:60:3d 0800 348: 10.0.0.6.67 > = 10.0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 file ""[|bootp] [tos 0x1= 0] > 22:18:17.135621 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 590: 10.0.0.9.68 = > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0x3d60c464 file ""[|bootp] > 22:18:17.136477 8:0:2b:86:88:55 0:40:63:c4:60:3d 0800 348: 10.0.0.6.67 > = 10.0.0.9.68: xid:0x3d60c464 Y:10.0.0.9 S:10.0.0.4 [|bootp] [tos 0x10] > 22:18:38.239936 0:40:63:c4:60:3d ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 0800 1502: 0.0.0.0.68 = > 255.255.255.255.67: xid:0xffff0001 flags:0x8000 [|bootp] [ttl 1] >=20 > > What kernel configuration are you using? Are there multiple ethernet > > devices in the system? >=20 > I followed the advice from the diskless(8) man page. There's only one > interface, and tcpdump clearly shows that the DHCP server recieves a > request but does not answer.=20 I was a bit surprised to see 'vr0', since PXE is almost always used with fxp drivers. > > Normally if you're using pxeboot for diskless > > booting, there's no need for the kernel or userspace to use DHCP: they > > inherit the DHCP settings provided by the pxeboot loader using the kern= el > > environment. When using PXE, there's no need for any special kernel > > options, etc, you should just be able to use GENERIC. >=20 > I'll try again without the BOOTP options...=20 Yeah. Our PXE booting support isn't really the same as the traditional diskless booting environment. If we don't have a PXE manpage, we probably should have one, since it's actually pretty easy to use. I use PXE booting extensively in my test environment, and it makes life much, much easier. I'm sure we have some worked examples posted around, but if not, I can post the details of my configuration. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:25:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC5216A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83B943D73 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:24:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 4CA2F5C74C; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:24:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:24:41 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20040110222441.GS9623@elvis.mu.org> References: <20040110050033.GP9623@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: help with linking please X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:25:09 -0000 * Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav [040110 03:17] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein writes: > > I'm having a hell of a time doing this so I can produce a static > > .o or .a with most of the symbols stripped. Two problems seem to be > > that even if I use "ld -r -o main.o obj1.o obj2.c libfoo.a" then I > > can not strip symbols in obj1.o that are referenced from obj2.o > > even after I combine the object files. > > You can link all your object files into one: > > $ ld -r -o all.o foo.o bar.o baz.o > > then strip unwanted symbols with {objcopy,strip} -N (or better yet, > use {objcopy,strip} -K to strip all symbols except the ones you want > to export) > > this is precisely what we do with klds to reduce namespace pollution. It will refuse to strip symbols if: foo.o:func1() references bar.o:func2(). But I need it to. -- - Alfred Perlstein - Research Engineering Development Inc. - email: bright@mu.org cell: 408-480-4684 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:25:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74FA16A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B3543D76; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 11AEF5328; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:24:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 2AC6A5327; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:24:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 14AD233C6A; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:24:37 +0100 (CET) To: Robert Watson References: From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:24:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Robert Watson's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:04:47 -0500 (EST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:25:16 -0000 Robert Watson writes: > On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > I'll try again without the BOOTP options...=20 > Yeah. Our PXE booting support isn't really the same as the traditional > diskless booting environment. It works fine without the BOOTP options... > If we don't have a PXE manpage, we probably > should have one, since it's actually pretty easy to use. We do, pxeboot(8). DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:32:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5D016A4D0 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3836A43D48 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:32:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 10299 invoked by uid 1002); 10 Jan 2004 22:32:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 22:32:30 -0000 Message-ID: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:30:44 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:32:34 -0000 All, I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. Unfortunately, while it was made to work pretty well on 4.x, it has never been viable on 5.x; it never survived the introduction of GEOM and removal of the old disk layer. I'm coming to the conclusion that I really don't have the time to work on it in my spare time. Also, I've seen next to zero interest in it from others, except for the occasional reminder that it doesn't work. I still believe in it, and I still believe that it can be integrated into GEOM and become the all-singing-all-dancing raid engine for the OS. It will probably never be an LVM stack, but I've also always believed that LVM and RAID are related but separate layers. It can certainly build upon whatever LVM layer appears in GEOM. All it needs is one or two other people to share some of the work and testing with me. I have a Work-In-Progress for converting and integrating it into GEOM on my home Perforce server. It hasn't been touched in several months and I really don't see myself being able to finish alone it in the near future. Since it's been hanging over my head for so long, I'm very, very close to just removing it and moving on. If anyone has the interest AND time available to help out with keeping it, please let me know ASAP. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:50:09 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACDC16A4D0 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F6F43D75 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:49:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0AMmLUd094420; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:48:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i0AMmLxD094417; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:48:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:48:20 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diskless problems X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:50:09 -0000 On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > Robert Watson writes: > > On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: > > > I'll try again without the BOOTP options...=20 > > Yeah. Our PXE booting support isn't really the same as the traditional > > diskless booting environment. >=20 > It works fine without the BOOTP options...=20 Yeah, makes sense, although I sort of feel as though it should have worked either way. I've just committed some changes to the diskless(8) man page to indicate those options aren't needed with PXE.=20 Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:55:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952BE16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FC243D53 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i0AMtA7B061218; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:55:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0AMt9ee061217; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:55:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:55:09 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Tom Arnold Message-ID: <20040110225509.GA60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20040109193551.GD39751@moo.sysabend.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040109193551.GD39751@moo.sysabend.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Large Filesystem Woes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:55:25 -0000 On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 11:35:51AM -0800, Tom Arnold wrote: >Building a box thats going to house many billions of small files. Think >innd circa 1998 or someone trying to house AOLs mail system on cyrus or >something. This is probably going to stress any filesystem. You might like to consider an alternative approach to storing the files (eg some sort of database). > To this end I've hung a 3.3TB hardware raid off a BSD box >broken into 4 partitions. 3 1TB and 1 300GB. >Originally this was on a 4.9 box. da0s1 and da0s2 were formatted "stock" >( -f 2048 -b 16384 -i 8192 ) da1s1 and s2 were both formatted -f 512 -b 4096 >-i 512. I ran '-f 512 -b 4096' on a news server for a while but I found that '-f 1024 -b 8192' significantly improved performance (at the cost of a significant increase in disk space usage). >Switched to 5.2. Newfs'd the RAID for UFS2. First issue, if the machine >came up dirty, bgfsck seemed to do its thing and the machine was online and >usable after about 20 minutes however after a few hours I get this error : > >fsck: /dev/da1s1e: CANNOT CREATE SNAPSHOT /export/database/.snap/fsck_snapshot: File too large >fsck: /dev/da1s1e: UNEXPECTED INCONSISTENCY; RUN fsck MANUALLY. I can't explain this. This means that mount(2) returned EFBIG - which isn't a documented error. I had a quick look through the sources and can't quickly see why EFBIG would get returned. >And the second thing I've noticed is I have lost a lot of space. >Under 4.9 with UFS da1s1e was approx 870gigs and s2e was around 180, now >I see : >Filesystem Size Used Avail Capacity iused ifree %iused Mounted on >/dev/da0s1e 992G 4.0K 912G 0% 2 134411260 0% /export/logs1 >/dev/da0s2e 992G 4.0K 912G 0% 2 134411260 0% /export/logs2 >/dev/da1s1e 510G 1.0K 469G 0% 2 2148661228 0% /export/database >/dev/da1s2e 94G 1.0K 86G 0% 2 395214332 0% /export/spare The size of a UFS1 inode is 128 bytes and a UFS2 inode is 256 bytes. With '-i 512', UFS2 allocates about 1/2 of your disk space to inodes. (And you have a further overhead of 8 bytes + name for each directory entry). >I'm not certain if I've run into some kind of weird limit here or a bug or >what and am looking for ideas to persue before I'm stuck going to an OS with >something journaled. Inode numbers are supposed to be u_int32_t but it's possible that they are being (incorrectly) treated as signed somewhere (and you have >2^31 inodes on da1s1e). Moving to a journalled filesystem won't necessarily help. I use DEC/Compaq/HP AdvFS at work - each file needs at least 282 bytes of metadata (under some circumstances, it can require multiple 282 byte metadata blocks) and from memory it is limited to 2^31 (or maybe 2^32) files. Our main fileserver has a filesystem with 2.7e6 files and we are continually running into undocumented "features" (aka bugs) as a result of the large number of files. (OTOH, I have no problems with 1.9e6 files in a UFS1 partition on a FreeBSD box). Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 14:57:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A013716A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC4A43D2D; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:57:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0AMtdUd094495; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:55:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)i0AMtdLc094492; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:55:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:55:39 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:57:12 -0000 On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Scott Long wrote: > I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven > and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. Unfortunately, while it was made > to work pretty well on 4.x, it has never been viable on 5.x; it never > survived the introduction of GEOM and removal of the old disk layer. > I'm coming to the conclusion that I really don't have the time to work > on it in my spare time. Also, I've seen next to zero interest in it > from others, except for the occasional reminder that it doesn't work. > > I still believe in it, and I still believe that it can be integrated > into GEOM and become the all-singing-all-dancing raid engine for the OS. > It will probably never be an LVM stack, but I've also always believed > that LVM and RAID are related but separate layers. It can certainly > build upon whatever LVM layer appears in GEOM. All it needs is one or > two other people to share some of the work and testing with me. > > I have a Work-In-Progress for converting and integrating it into GEOM on > my home Perforce server. It hasn't been touched in several months and I > really don't see myself being able to finish alone it in the near > future. Since it's been hanging over my head for so long, I'm very, > very close to just removing it and moving on. If anyone has the > interest AND time available to help out with keeping it, please let me > know ASAP. While I recognize the reality of time constraints and developers, I think it might not be a bad idea (regardless of the outcome here) to import the RAIDFrame bits into the FreeBSD Perforce server, so that it's available for reference should anyone pick this up now (or in the future). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Senior Research Scientist, McAfee Research From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 15:04:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7A416A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9867743D5C; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:04:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 6280E5328; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:04:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 794195327; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:03:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 2B89233C6A; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:03:56 +0100 (CET) To: Alfred Perlstein References: <20040110050033.GP9623@elvis.mu.org> <20040110222441.GS9623@elvis.mu.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:03:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040110222441.GS9623@elvis.mu.org> (Alfred Perlstein's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:24:41 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: help with linking please X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:04:06 -0000 Alfred Perlstein writes: > It will refuse to strip symbols if: > > foo.o:func1() references bar.o:func2(). > > But I need it to. use -G instead of -K, e.g. $ strip -G apifunc1 -G apifunc2 foo.o will make every symbol except apifunc1 and apifunc2 local. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 15:25:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58BF16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2E143D2F for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 6ED965328; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:25:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 774BA5327; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:25:47 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 9A56633C6A; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:25:46 +0100 (CET) To: Peter Jeremy References: <20040109193551.GD39751@moo.sysabend.org> <20040110225509.GA60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:25:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20040110225509.GA60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> (Peter Jeremy's message of "Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:55:09 +1100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Tom Arnold Subject: Re: Large Filesystem Woes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:25:56 -0000 Peter Jeremy writes: > Our main fileserver has a filesystem with 2.7e6 files and we > are continually running into undocumented "features" (aka bugs) as a > result of the large number of files. Is 2.7e6 a typo for 2.7e9? I can't imagine *any* modern file system having trouble storing barely three million files. My ~ alone has almost a million. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 15:28:15 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C0716A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.des.no (flood.des.no [217.116.83.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2A043D48; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id E40B95309; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:28:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id 474B75308; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:28:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 1D74233C6A; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:28:06 +0100 (CET) To: Scott Long References: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:28:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> (Scott Long's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:30:44 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on flood.des.no X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:28:15 -0000 Scott Long writes: > I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven > and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. I'm having trouble seeing what RF does that Vinum (or at least a properly GEOMified Vinum) can't do... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 15:45:57 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F1816A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 45A9743D46 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:45:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 13070 invoked by uid 1002); 10 Jan 2004 23:45:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 23:45:52 -0000 Message-ID: <40008E4A.3060604@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:44:10 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:45:57 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Scott Long writes: > >>I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven >>and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. > > > I'm having trouble seeing what RF does that Vinum (or at least a > properly GEOMified Vinum) can't do... > > DES Please read the RAIDframe documents at http://www.pdl.cmu.edu/RAIDframe before you ask again. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 15:56:42 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B7416A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6903743D2D for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 13385 invoked by uid 1002); 10 Jan 2004 23:56:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 23:56:39 -0000 Message-ID: <400090D1.8050701@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:54:57 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org References: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:56:42 -0000 Scott Long wrote: > All, > > I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven > and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. Unfortunately, while it was made > to work pretty well on 4.x, it has never been viable on 5.x; it never > survived the introduction of GEOM and removal of the old disk layer. > I'm coming to the conclusion that I really don't have the time to work > on it in my spare time. Also, I've seen next to zero interest in it > from others, except for the occasional reminder that it doesn't work. > > I still believe in it, and I still believe that it can be integrated > into GEOM and become the all-singing-all-dancing raid engine for the > OS. It will probably never be an LVM stack, but I've also always > believed that LVM and RAID are related but separate layers. It can > certainly build upon whatever LVM layer appears in GEOM. All it needs > is one or two other people to share some of the work and testing > with me. > > I have a Work-In-Progress for converting and integrating it into GEOM > on my home Perforce server. It hasn't been touched in several months > and I really don't see myself being able to finish alone it in the near > future. Since it's been hanging over my head for so long, I'm very, > very close to just removing it and moving on. If anyone has the > interest AND time available to help out with keeping it, please let > me know ASAP. > > Scott > I totally forgot that I imported a snapshot of my RF/GEOM changes into the Perforce server on repoman.freebsd.org back in October. It unfortunately doesn't have a full change history, but it should be enough to see where I was heading. For those without direct Perforce access, you can view the diffs here: http://perforce.freebsd.org/chv.cgi?ignore=View+change%3A&CH=40812 Those with Perforce access should look at the 'scottl-rf' branch. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 16:06:08 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C4B16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DBF43D2F for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:06:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i0B05p7B061388; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:05:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0B05pQ5061387; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:05:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:05:51 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Garance A Drosihn Message-ID: <20040111000551.GC60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> <200401102020.17108.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <4000701B.40102@cream.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:06:08 -0000 On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 05:01:13PM -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: >At 9:35 PM +0000 1/10/04, Andrew Boothman wrote: >>Peter Schuller wrote: >> >>>Most of the noteworthy features of subversion are listed >>>on the project front page: >>> >>> http://subversion.tigris.org/ >> >>A significant one of which is the fact that it's available >>under a BSD-style license. Meaning that the project wouldn't >>have to rely on more GPLed code. >> >>I wonder if our SCM would be brought into the base system or >>whether it would just be left in ports? > >We haven't even started to *test* subversion yet, so I think >it's a bit early to worry about this question! I disagree. Andrew raised two issues (type of license and port vs base location). The type of license is an input to the decision as to which SCM to choose - BSD would be preferable but GPL is probably acceptable (given two potential SCMs with similar features, the BSD licensed one would be selected in preference to the GPL one). The decision on how to manage the SCM is totally independent of the choice of SCM - it relates to the ease of maintenance of the SCM. There's no reason why an "in principle" decision couldn't be made now. Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 16:53:26 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1444816A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (c211-30-75-229.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.75.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D33643D5E for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peterjeremy@optushome.com.au) Received: from server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (localhost.vk2pj.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1])i0B0rE7B062133; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:53:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.vk2pj.dyndns.org (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i0B0r8Kq062132; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:53:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:53:08 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Message-ID: <20040111005308.GD60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> References: <20040109193551.GD39751@moo.sysabend.org> <20040110225509.GA60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Large Filesystem Woes X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:53:26 -0000 On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 12:25:46AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >Peter Jeremy writes: >> Our main fileserver has a filesystem with 2.7e6 files and we >> are continually running into undocumented "features" (aka bugs) as a >> result of the large number of files. > >Is 2.7e6 a typo for 2.7e9? I can't imagine *any* modern file system >having trouble storing barely three million files. My ~ alone has >almost a million. No, I am serious about the the 2.7e6. It's not so much a hard limit as things like: - A statement "these options are no longer necessary and will be be removed in a future release" in the newfs(8)-equivalent man page should read more like "these options are essential" (this relates to dimensioning metadata allocation based on the expected total number of files). The default values hit undocumented metadata extent count limits at about 500,000 files. The table showing suggested dimensioning guidelines only goes to 800,000 files. - Failure to correctly dimension metadata during filesystem creation will lead to "out of disk space" errors but there are no tools to determine how close you are to this situation. - Recommendations that a minimum of 5% free space should exist for performing snapshots neglect to mention that the underlying code apparently changes behaviour at about 12% free space. - Metadata fragmentation can result in directories turning into mode 0 files within a snapshot. (This is apparently more likely to occur with less than 12% free space) Admittedly, there has been a major upgrade of the FS code in a newer OS release but my application requires the older release. Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 17:14:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1404B16A4D0 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mho.com (smtp.mho.net [64.58.4.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C53D243D5E for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottl@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 15841 invoked by uid 1002); 11 Jan 2004 01:14:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd.org) (64.58.1.252) by smtp.mho.net with SMTP; 11 Jan 2004 01:14:11 -0000 Message-ID: <4000A2FC.2040400@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:12:28 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031103 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Leidinger References: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> <3180.1073776377@critter.freebsd.dk> <20040111020459.5bbba56a@Magellan.Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20040111020459.5bbba56a@Magellan.Leidinger.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:14:16 -0000 Alexander Leidinger wrote: > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:12:57 +0100 > "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: > > >>As much as I would hate to see RF and Vinum disappar from our >>source tree, maybe what we need to do is to kick them both into >>"training-camp" in p4 while you and Greg look the other way. > > [...] > >>I'd say lets kick them both into perforce and let whoever wants >>their hands have a go at them. > > > RF isn't working today on -current, vinum is (please don't tell me > something else, I don't want the system under my desk stop running on a > vinum volume just because you say it has to :-)). Do you really want to > throw your axe at vinum while it's still alive? > > Bye, > Alexander. > Ok, stop right here. This is the third email so for that is attempting the debate the merits of one over the other. Spending time arguing that point is a waste of time. If working on RF is something that interests you, then show your support and say so. Scott From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 17:48:44 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CDA16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 82-41-27-158.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk (82-41-27-158.cable.ubr04.edin.blueyonder.co.uk [82.41.27.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26C443D2D for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:48:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from cream.org (spatula.flat [192.168.0.2]) by myriad.flat (Postfix) with ESMTP id C711DC2; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:42:26 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4000AB54.7030804@cream.org> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:48:04 +0000 From: Andrew Boothman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Jeremy References: <20040110032731.18864.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> <40003F4C.2000107@gamersimpact.com> <200401102020.17108.peter.schuller@infidyne.com> <4000701B.40102@cream.org> <20040111000551.GC60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20040111000551.GC60996@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCM options (was Re: Where is FreeBSD going?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:48:44 -0000 Peter Jeremy wrote: >>>>Most of the noteworthy features of subversion are listed >>>>on the project front page: >>>> >>>> http://subversion.tigris.org/ >>> >>>A significant one of which is the fact that it's available >>>under a BSD-style license. Meaning that the project wouldn't >>>have to rely on more GPLed code. >>> >>>I wonder if our SCM would be brought into the base system or >>>whether it would just be left in ports? >> >>We haven't even started to *test* subversion yet, so I think >>it's a bit early to worry about this question! > > I disagree. Andrew raised two issues (type of license and port vs > base location). The type of license is an input to the decision as > to which SCM to choose - BSD would be preferable but GPL is probably > acceptable (given two potential SCMs with similar features, the BSD > licensed one would be selected in preference to the GPL one). Indeed - I was just adding to the comments about subversion by pointing out that its BSDness is a point in its favour. > The decision on how to manage the SCM is totally independent of the > choice of SCM - it relates to the ease of maintenance of the SCM. > There's no reason why an "in principle" decision couldn't be made > now. Except that the decision of whether our SCM was imported into src/contrib or not might be effected by its license. I mean I know there's plenty of GPLed code in there already, but adding to it might not be such a popular move. Anywho - the topic of SCM is something that rears it's head once in a while (I've really enjoyed how one post from our troll has led to conversations about just about everything :D ). I think we need to wait for subversion to hit 1.0 and then evaluate it carefully. I can't really think of a change to FreeBSD more wide-ranging than changing our SCM, and it would need buy-in from your common-or-garden CVSup user, through commiters and the core team. That's not to say that we can't change. The benefits of doing so are obvious. But we certainly don't want any nasty surprises on the way. Andrew From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 19:45:31 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41B016A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A904543D31 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (66-91-236-204.san.rr.com [66.91.236.204]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D88B188C433; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:45:27 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr To: "Marc G. Fournier" , Michel TALON Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:45:27 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <20040110013313.Q51801@ganymede.hub.org> In-Reply-To: <20040110013313.Q51801@ganymede.hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200401101945.27234.wes@softweyr.com> cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 03:45:31 -0000 On Friday 09 January 2004 09:34 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Michel TALON wrote: > > > > Sincerely FreeBSD developers have more important tasks than spending > > hours to fit an installable system on floppies. When FreeBSD used > > one floppy, it was tolerable to do floppy installs. With 2 or 3 > > floppies it is awfully slow, i have done once and will never do it > > again. > > I still use floppies to do my installs, and find getting the base > system up over FTP to generally take <30minutes *shrug* Faster, IMHO, > then downloading the ISO and burning it to a CD .. Faster than loading a single ISO image with only the boot information and sysinstall and booting from that, rather than 3 (or 4 or 5) floppies? A CD-R is cheaper, faster, more reliable, and you don't have to keep feeding them into the machine. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 19:54:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D3B16A4CE for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp01.glenview.famvid.com (smtp01.glenview.famvid.com [66.94.212.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAF7043D54 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wgrim@siue.edu) Received: from smtp01.glenview.famvid.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost) by smtp01.glenview.famvid.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AfWdi-0008MT-1t for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:51:50 -0600 Received: from smtp01.glenview.famvid.com ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 31853-01 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:51:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtptemp.glenview.famvid.com ([10.253.4.20] helo=mail.famvid.com) by smtp01.glenview.famvid.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AfWdb-0008Lc-7d for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:51:43 -0600 Received: from 13spidialup147.famvid.com ([66.94.203.147] helo=siue.edu) by mail.famvid.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AfWgk-0006At-RY for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:54:59 -0600 Message-ID: <4000C8D8.4080204@siue.edu> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:54:00 -0600 From: William Grim Organization: SIUE User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20040108163724.GA26745@lpthe.jussieu.fr> <20040110013313.Q51801@ganymede.hub.org> <200401101945.27234.wes@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <200401101945.27234.wes@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at famvid.com Subject: Re: Discussion on the future of floppies in 5.x and 6.x X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: wgrim@siue.edu List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 03:54:13 -0000 Wes Peters wrote: >On Friday 09 January 2004 09:34 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > >>On Thu, 8 Jan 2004, Michel TALON wrote: >> >> >>>Sincerely FreeBSD developers have more important tasks than spending >>>hours to fit an installable system on floppies. When FreeBSD used >>>one floppy, it was tolerable to do floppy installs. With 2 or 3 >>>floppies it is awfully slow, i have done once and will never do it >>>again. >>> >>> >>I still use floppies to do my installs, and find getting the base >>system up over FTP to generally take <30minutes *shrug* Faster, IMHO, >>then downloading the ISO and burning it to a CD .. >> >> > >Faster than loading a single ISO image with only the boot information and >sysinstall and booting from that, rather than 3 (or 4 or 5) floppies? A >CD-R is cheaper, faster, more reliable, and you don't have to keep >feeding them into the machine. > > > Yes, and what about my P3-500 server that has no CD drive in it? I hardly think I'm going to purchase a CD drive just for that server. If there ever comes a time when I have to decide between purchasing a CD drive to reinstall a broken installation of FBSD that I have deemed unrecoverable or using linux (where I can use floppies all day and night), I'll be installing linux. However, on this note, I would like to say I'd like to help out with a floppy project, but I would not want to be "floppy maintainer." At least, not until I knew a lot more about how things worked, and even then, I'm not sure, because of time and lack of several test systems. Later! -- William Michael Grim Student, Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville Unix Network Administrator, SIUE, Computer Science dept. Phone: (217) 341-6552 Email: wgrim@siue.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 21:04:53 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E439416A4D0; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620CB43D49; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAB42BD5A; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:04:47 +1100 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 00B6551211; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:34:44 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:34:44 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20040111050444.GJ7617@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> <40008E4A.3060604@freebsd.org> <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> <3180.1073776377@critter.freebsd.dk> <20040111020459.5bbba56a@Magellan.Leidinger.net> <4000A2FC.2040400@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ho6OhzAHcBHHvqkB" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40008E4A.3060604@freebsd.org> <4000A2FC.2040400@freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: Alexander Leidinger cc: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= Subject: Re: Future of RAIDFrame X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:04:53 -0000 --ho6OhzAHcBHHvqkB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, 10 January 2004 at 18:12:28 -0700, Scott Long wrote: > Alexander Leidinger wrote: >> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:12:57 +0100 >> "Poul-Henning Kamp" wrote: >> >> >>> As much as I would hate to see RF and Vinum disappar from our >>> source tree, maybe what we need to do is to kick them both into >>> "training-camp" in p4 while you and Greg look the other way. >> >> [...] >> >>> I'd say lets kick them both into perforce and let whoever wants >>> their hands have a go at them. >> >> RF isn't working today on -current, vinum is (please don't tell me >> something else, I don't want the system under my desk stop running on a >> vinum volume just because you say it has to :-)). Do you really want to >> throw your axe at vinum while it's still alive? > > Ok, stop right here. This is the third email so for that is attempting > the debate the merits of one over the other. Spending time arguing that > point is a waste of time. If working on RF is something that interests > you, then show your support and say so. On Saturday, 10 January 2004 at 16:44:10 -0700, Scott Long wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >> Scott Long writes: >> >>> I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven >>> and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. >> >> I'm having trouble seeing what RF does that Vinum (or at least a >> properly GEOMified Vinum) can't do... > > Please read the RAIDframe documents at http://www.pdl.cmu.edu/RAIDframe > before you ask again. People, I think we should make it clear that neither Vinum nor RAIDFrame are perfect. We shouldn't chuck either out at the moment, and it would be really nice, as phk suggests, to have people working on both. Both are rather old now, but they contain good ideas. It would certainly be an excellent idea to improve them both. We shouldn't be trying to compare their relative merits at the moment. Wait until they regain their strength. I'll answer phk's suggestions separately. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --ho6OhzAHcBHHvqkB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAANlsIubykFB6QiMRAtSNAJsFO2+GgjevUzgP0i08UqwPy+IrLgCePHNy DE51aVSa2AnbOcwBlmSiaR0= =F48W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ho6OhzAHcBHHvqkB-- From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jan 10 21:16:56 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0EE416A4CE; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ozlabs.org (ozlabs.org [203.10.76.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCDB43D39; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (blackwater.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783A52BD5A; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:16:51 +1100 (EST) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9B02A51211; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:46:49 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:46:49 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20040111051649.GK7617@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org> <3180.1073776377@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fwoMm750e/OqJ5Gb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3180.1073776377@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: Scott Long cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Future of RAIDFrame and Vinum (was: Future of RAIDFrame) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:16:57 -0000 --fwoMm750e/OqJ5Gb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sunday, 11 January 2004 at 0:12:57 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <40007D14.6090205@freebsd.org>, Scott Long writes: >> All, >> >> I started RAIDframe three years ago with the hope of bringing a proven >> and extensible RAID stack to FreeBSD. Unfortunately, while it was made >> to work pretty well on 4.x, it has never been viable on 5.x; it never >> survived the introduction of GEOM and removal of the old disk layer. >> [...] >> I have a Work-In-Progress for converting and integrating it into GEOM >> on my home Perforce server. It hasn't been touched in several months >> and I really don't see myself being able to finish alone it in the near >> future. Since it's been hanging over my head for so long, I'm very, >> very close to just removing it and moving on. > > I can't help thinking about how small the central group of developers > in FreeBSD is, and considering that you also carry the armoured > release-engineer hat, I am fully able to understand why you have > not been able to pull RF along in addition to all the other stuff. > > As much as I would hate to see RF and Vinum disappar from our > source tree, maybe what we need to do is to kick them both into > "training-camp" in p4 while you and Greg look the other way. Hmm. I can't see why they have to disappear from the source tree, and I don't see why Scott or I should have to look the other way. I don't know about RAIDFrame, but Vinum still works for the most part: apart from a couple of recently reported bugs, as well as a number of long-standing ways to shoot yourself in the foot, the only problem I know is that swap on Vinum no longer works. I had hoped to get something done about that, but it requires changing the interfaces to disk(9), and I don't have the time. > In the p4 tree, we can easier add new talent to our developer force > and I am pretty sure that some sort of merry band of developers > would form around both RF and vinum there. OK, I'm not a fan of p4, but I suspect that's not the issue. This sounds like a way of suggesting "Let's do VinumNG and RFNG and get a whole lot of people involved". I couldn't agree more. > I am not convinced that they may be able to pull off the task, but > the fact that somebody at least tries should give us better chances > than having RF stuck in your TODO queue, and vinum stuck in Gregs, > while everybody else waits more or less paitiently. Mainly less :-) I've been trying to encourage people to look at Vinum for some time. It's a relatively complicated piece of code, and something about it seems to scare people away. That's unfortunate, because the complex parts are also those that work the best. The crap around the outside, like configuration management, was slated for replacement about 4 years ago, but it never happened, though it's relatively simple code. It's gradually getting more stable, but it's a long way from being good. > Because we might as well be honest and face it: Neither you nor Greg > has much chance of finding the significant amount of time that you > need. At least from my point of view, that's absolutely correct. > I know this can be seen as you and Greg throwing in the towel, Not to me. > but I urge you to try to see it like saw my Junior Kernel Hacker > list: Throwing a good meaty bone to pick which I myself couldn't eat > anyway. Yes, that's the way I've seen it for some time. Any ideas how to excite people? Do you want to say something? Something like "If phk and grog agree, it must be right"? :-) > I'd say lets kick them both into perforce and let whoever wants > their hands have a go at them. For some definition of perforce, I'm all for it. Note that there's also an OS-independent mailing list (see http://www.auug.org.au/mailman/listinfo/vinum-devel for joining instructions). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --fwoMm750e/OqJ5Gb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFAANxBIubykFB6QiMRAhxxAKCerHBBFOv+BoWdncn3Wit4pJn5RQCfajnt T6SjE4SOKwQz8oRUMceiOfM= =N+hO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fwoMm750e/OqJ5Gb--