From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 29 17:51:12 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876C416A4CE for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:51:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from gobsd.com (gobsd.com [65.75.179.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E1243D31 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:51:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from drhodus@machdep.com) Received: from machdep.com (filter.catpa.com [198.93.75.2] (may be forged)) by gobsd.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i5THwgZs052109; Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drhodus@machdep.com) Message-ID: <40E1AB9A.6020300@machdep.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:49:14 -0400 From: David Rhodus User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; DragonFly i386; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040622 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Kernel Developer/Architect X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:51:12 -0000 Crescent Anchor is now accepting job applications for software development positions including positions in kernel development. Crescent Anchor develops a commerical BSD operating system along with custom software and operating systems development services. These openings are for anyone looking for a challenging new enviroment to work in while creatively solving complex problems . We currently have an outstanding team and we are interested in developers who are consistently implementing new algorithms in all aspects of operating systems. The required programming language for this posistion will be ANSI-C and we are looking for people with at least 2 years of professional development experience. We have several openings including fulltime and contract positions. Please send resumes to : jobs@crescentanchor.com Or visit http://www.crescentanchor.com From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 1 19:50:37 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A9416A4CF for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from carroll.com (mail3.hck.carroll.com [216.44.20.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBAF43D39 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:50:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jim@carroll.com) Received: by carroll.com (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.1.3) with PIPE id 70176947; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:49:50 -0400 From: jim@carroll.com Received: from [10.64.0.33] (HELO as06) by carroll.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.3) with ESMTP id 70176936 for freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:49:32 -0400 To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:49:32 -0400 Organization: Carroll-Net, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.132 Thread-Index: AcRfpIdaxKwkh3atRYiKRg7R31XI7g== Message-ID: X-CNVscan2: Virus Scanned by Carroll-Net Subject: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:50:37 -0000 Application Service Provider seeks resourceful BSD/Linux expert to manage our mission-critical datacenter network. You will support over 1,000 users at over 100 locations around the US, including our headquarters in Hackensack, NJ where you will be based. This is a great opportunity for dedicated, organized, self starter technology hound, who knows hardware, software and networking "cold". Someone who lives-and-breathes computers. This is a demanding, high visibility job. This is NOT a job for someone looking for an "easy gig". This is NOT a job for someone who wants to coast. This is a tough assignment -- but a truly great opportunity - for a hard-core tech "geek" who takes enormous pride in his or her work, and who's attention to detail is unmatched. Ability to quickly troubleshoot and resolve problems is a must. You will be on the front-line, interacting with top management every day. There is minimal bureaucracy. If you don't know your stuff "cold", the boss will know it and there will be no place to hide. The ideal candidate will be experienced administering BSD and or Linux servers and comfortable working with Cisco routers. Experience working in an ISP environment is a real plus. Don't bother applying if you are sloppy, used to working in big companies where lots of other people got work done for you. Please do NOT apply if you need somebody else to tell you minute-by-minute what to do next. Please do NOT apply if aren't prepared to run your own show. Please DO apply if are able to walk into any situation, no matter how chaotic, size-up exactly what needs to get done, figure out the solution from your own experience or from doing research, and then solve the problem using your own two hands and your own smarts. Exceptionally determined, driven, dedicated, resourceful people thrive here. Other's don't last. In this role you will: . Manage day-to-day operation of the company's FreeBSD servers . Ensure 24x7 data-center uptime . Maintain firewall . Maintain antivirus . Administer all servers (file/print, email, remote access, web) . Troubleshoot and resolve remote access issues (broadband, dialup) . Maintain and troubleshoot Internet Service . Recommend and implement hardware and software upgrades . Manage data recovery/backup system You will be required to be familiar with the following technologies . FreeBSD using CVS . Natd . Ipfilter / ipfw . Sendmail . Bind . Apache . MySQL / PostgreSQL . WuFTP . Squid . Samba . Rsync . Zebra You should be familiar with the FreeBSD ports structure and be comfortable downloading, installing and troubleshooting packages. We're looking for someone who understands how systems work and is able to apply this knowledge to new, complex problems. All staff are expected to record their work in our trouble ticket system. This includes working with customers until they are satisfied a problem is resolved. You'll also be required to document your work so that others on the team can share processes and procedures. You'll be expected to on a regular basis . Create Perl and Shell scripts . Schedule cronjobs . Configure and work with NFS mounts . Add and Remove users from NIS, Kerberos and Samba . Configure (add and remove) devices, networks and protocols You need to have a strong understanding of TCP/IP networking protocols and principles. This position has an on-call responsibility and from time to time you'll be expected to work evenings and weekends. While the job is specifically for FreeBSD, we do use several dozen Windows 2000 servers in our operation. Understanding how to integrate Windows and FreeBSD is something that will definitely help you in this job. You can virtually guarantee yourself the position if in addition to the above requirements, you also happen to have an MCP or higher Microsoft certification. ** Must live in the Hackensack, New Jersey area ** Must be able to work unsupervised. ** Must have good time management skills. ** Must be available to work the times and days specified. ** Must be able to work on call if needed. ** Must be willing to have work schedule altered as needed. ** Must agree to civil and criminal background investigation. --- Jim C. | Carroll-Net, Inc. 201-488-4092 | www.carroll.com | Application Service Provider From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 09:13:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE0116A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:13:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C66B43D48 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:13:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BgK5V-000Awj-4a; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:12:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:12:05 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: jim@carroll.com Message-ID: <20040702091205.GB20016@iconoplex.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:13:02 -0000 On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 03:49:32PM -0400, jim@carroll.com wrote: > Don't bother applying if you are sloppy, used to working in big companies > where lots of other people got work done for you. Please do NOT apply if you > need somebody else to tell you minute-by-minute what to do next. Please do > NOT apply if aren't prepared to run your own show. Translation: we're going to work you like a dog and not apologise for it or even thank you for dealing with the chaotic sh**hole that is our company. Also, note the lack of details relating to remuneration. So they're going to pay you close to nothing to boot. And it requires you to move to New Jersey! These guys really aren't selling this position, and personally I'm offended that they think the people on freebsd-jobs would be anything but professional in their approach, and need to be reminded that they shouldn't "coast". Is there a perception out there that we're all looking to sit around picking our noses whilst reading slashdot? We're FreeBSD admins. Not MCSEs or Linux admins. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 14:27:16 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C2716A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:27:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lakermmtao04.cox.net (lakermmtao04.cox.net [68.230.240.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D598B43D2D for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:27:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from lee@critesclan.com) Received: from [192.168.0.254] (really [68.111.117.192]) by lakermmtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20040702142501.BHBI29176.lakermmtao04.cox.net@[192.168.0.254]> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:01 -0400 From: Lee Crites Organization: Crites Clan To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:26:31 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.1 References: <20040702091205.GB20016@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20040702091205.GB20016@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407020926.31217@cmav> Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: lee@critesclan.com List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:27:16 -0000 On Friday July 2 2004 04:12, Paul Robinson wrote: > Translation: we're going to work you like a dog and not apologise for it or > even thank you for dealing with the chaotic sh**hole that is our company. > Also, note the lack of details relating to remuneration. So they're going > to pay you close to nothing to boot. And it requires you to move to New > Jersey! > > These guys really aren't selling this position, and personally I'm offended > that they think the people on freebsd-jobs would be anything but > professional in their approach, and need to be reminded that they shouldn't > "coast". > > Is there a perception out there that we're all looking to sit around > picking our noses whilst reading slashdot? I honestly do not believe this is a general opinion of FreeBSD folks. There is a psychological axiom that goes something like this: People tend to blame/accuse others of what they, themselves, are guilty of. I'm sure all of us have seen this in action on numerous occasions. The person who constantly complains about how everyone else is a jerk is actually the biggest jerk you know -- that kind of thing. Basically, whenever I see someone jump out and start scattering accusations like this particular posting did, I don't take it personally, because I see in it a description of the poster, not, in this case, the people they are sending it do. And it appears that you (Paul) picked up on a lot of that, but just didn't take it to it's completed conclusion. You picked up on the chaotic work environment and such, but didn't pick up on the mindset/personality traits of your prospective employer. They are demanding someone the level of Greg Lehey who can come in and clean up their dump, all the while possibly treating him like dirt. I mean, look at one of the comments you didn't quote: "there will be no place to hide." I didn't even bother sending them a reply, even though it's the kind of position I'd love to have. (although I would NOT like to live in NJ) > We're FreeBSD admins. Not MCSEs or Linux admins. Cute... Lee From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 14:46:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162C316A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:46:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mailhost.xciv.org (vantage.xciv.org [217.158.13.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5450843D48 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:46:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from paul@xciv.org) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=xciv.org) by mailhost.xciv.org with esmtp id 1BgPI6-000878-00; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:45:26 +0100 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Organization: XCIV, London UK In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:26:31 CDT." <200407020926.31217@cmav> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:45:26 +0100 Message-ID: <31193.1088779526@xciv.org> From: Paul Civati X-XCIV-MailScanner: Found to be clean Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: paul@xciv.org List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:46:52 -0000 Lee Crites wrote: > They are demanding someone the level of Greg Lehey who can come in > and clean up their dump, all the while possibly treating him like > dirt. Not wanting to perpetuate a discussion on an "announce" list, but what I picked up on, was a heavy list of requirements (I would accept that if..) but absolutely no indication of what the successful candidate would be rewarded with in return for meeting those... -Paul- From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 15:31:30 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B5316A4D6 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:31:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nnsolutions1.inetu.net (nnsolutions1.inetu.net [209.235.255.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B47843D48 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:31:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@grello.org) Received: (qmail 43038 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 15:23:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by nnsolutions1.inetu.net with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 15:23:10 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:23:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Grello X-X-Sender: chris@nnsolutions1.inetu.net To: Paul Civati In-Reply-To: <31193.1088779526@xciv.org> Message-ID: References: <31193.1088779526@xciv.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:31:30 -0000 Here are some samples of his previous postings. The tone in this one was quite a change. :) I wonder if he was burned by previous employees... Either way, stuff like "there will be no place to hide." is just going to deter good people from applying. http://www.carroll.com/jobs/freebsd_administrator.html http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=4325+0+archive/1999/freebsd-jobs/19990314.freebsd-jobs http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=24319+0+archive/2002/freebsd-jobs/20020901.freebsd-jobs - Chris On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Paul Civati wrote: > Lee Crites wrote: > > > They are demanding someone the level of Greg Lehey who can come in > > and clean up their dump, all the while possibly treating him like > > dirt. > > Not wanting to perpetuate a discussion on an "announce" list, but > what I picked up on, was a heavy list of requirements (I would accept > that if..) but absolutely no indication of what the successful > candidate would be rewarded with in return for meeting those... > > -Paul- > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-jobs > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-jobs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -------------------------------------------------------- This email was created with 100% recycled electrons. -------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 21:24:27 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665E616A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:24:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F0C43D55 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:24:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200407020926.31217@cmav> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org cc: Lee Crites Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:24:27 -0000 On 02-Jul-04 My Homeland Security Spies reported that Lee Crites said: > On Friday July 2 2004 04:12, Paul Robinson wrote: >> Translation: we're going to work you like a dog and not apologise for it or >> even thank you for dealing with the chaotic sh**hole that is our company. >> Also, note the lack of details relating to remuneration. So they're going >> to pay you close to nothing to boot. And it requires you to move to New >> Jersey!  >> These guys really aren't selling this position, and personally I'm offended >> that they think the people on freebsd-jobs would be anything but >> professional in their approach, and need to be reminded that they shouldn't >> "coast". >> >> Is there a perception out there that we're all looking to sit around >> picking our noses whilst reading slashdot? Well.. yea. When was the last time you tried to hire a sysadmin? Especially to work for a small company that perhaps isn't on the top of the pay scale. Frankly the time of a company having to "sell" a position is still gone. Its you grok unix? You want eat? Why we hire you? Ug. > I honestly do not believe this is a general opinion of FreeBSD folks. I think perhaps you are taking it too personally. > There is a psychological axiom that goes something like this: People tend to > blame/accuse others of what they, themselves, are guilty of. See above. Works both ways doesn't it =] > I'm sure all of us have seen this in action on numerous occasions. The person > who constantly complains about how everyone else is a jerk is actually the > biggest jerk you know -- that kind of thing. Basically, whenever I see > someone jump out and start scattering accusations like this particular > posting did, I don't take it personally, because I see in it a description of > the poster, not, in this case, the people they are sending it do. I see it as someone who is trying to fill a position and is perhaps using the "are you up for a challenge" approach. Are you good enough? That sort of thing. Yes this may scare off a few people who will not read it that way but it sounds like he's a bit frustrated. The last time I had to hire someone out of 300 applications NONE ran a BSD or any other Nix box at home. As far as they were concerned if it wasn't in their colleges lab, or at their last employer it didn't exist. Many said or implied "If the company expects me to learn something then they will teach me or send me to school or at the very least buy my books or training manuals." Ask them if they read up on things and yes many will say, "well I read slash dot." (see above) > And it appears that you (Paul) picked up on a lot of that, but just didn't > take it to it's completed conclusion. You picked up on the chaotic work > environment and such, but didn't pick up on the mindset/personality traits of > your prospective employer. Asside from big companies that have 2-3 employee's for every position, most companies I have seen or known have been chaotic in their own way. Today especially it's a sad thing but most companies want someone who has no life. Who lives for their job and feels glad to have one. It used to be people could say no I won't do on-call. Or I'm an admin I don't wake up that early. Today it could mean eating or not. > They are demanding someone the level of Greg Lehey who can come in and clean > up their dump, all the while possibly treating him like dirt. I mean, look at > one of the comments you didn't quote: "there will be no place to hide." Again a scare tactic to weed out those looking for a comfy job. Frankly I think that the biggest problem is many of our ages. As we get older we expect experience to count for more, our work to be a little less and our tolerance for idiots much decreased. Yes their are those companies who will bleed through good admins becouse they keep expecting the super admin who can do anything even before their idiotic deadlines and just loves to work work work and be happy with the little bit of money they get. Generally I call them eager JR Admins. A rare breed. But whom take that experience and then leave the idiots behind. I suspect most of us have been there. > I didn't even bother sending them a reply, even though it's the kind of > position I'd love to have. (although I would NOT like to live in NJ) Well, if it's the position you would love to have what are you afraid of? Sadly your letting first impressions decide for you. If we let first impressions guide us many of us might not be BSD admins or even have an Significant Other. =] >> We're FreeBSD admins. Not MCSEs or Linux admins. > > Cute... No we are Admins. Most managers could not give a crap what we run as long as it works. BSD admins are a special breed however I will give you that. Nicole Not trying to piss in anyones wheaties, just add perspective. > Lee > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-jobs > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-jobs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Blessed Be! | Powered by FreeBSD * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- http://www.unixgirl.com - http://www.deviantimages.com http://www.nonsenseband.com Just becouse some goverment person may have done something bad doesn't make it OK for someone else to do it now! I'm sick and tired of that as an excuse. Being a politician is not a get out of jail card! --Me We are star stuff... We are the universe trying to figure itself out. --Delenn, "Babylon 5" You really get what you pay for. The problem is finding something that is worth what you paid for it.  *** Spam Sucks and I get tons of it. So I have some tight spam filters. If any email to me bounces, please use your secret decoder ring and send to blabgoo at yahoo dot com :) From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 23:24:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1DC816A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:24:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wjv.com (user38.net339.fl.sprint-hsd.net [65.40.24.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1C943D39 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:24:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bv@bilver.wjv.com) Received: from bilver.wjv.com (localhost.wjv.com [127.0.0.1]) by wjv.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i62NOP8L011905; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:24:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bv@bilver.wjv.com) Received: (from bv@localhost) by bilver.wjv.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i62NOPCm011904; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:24:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bv) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:24:25 -0400 From: Bill Vermillion To: Nicole Message-ID: <20040702232425.GB11501@wjv.com> References: <200407020926.31217@cmav> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: W.J.Vermillion / Orlando - Winter Park ReplyTo: bv@wjv.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i cc: Lee Crites cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: bv@wjv.com List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:24:35 -0000 Ashes to ashes, and DOS to DOS Nicole was heard to say on or about Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 10:56 : > On 02-Jul-04 My Homeland Security Spies reported that Lee Crites > said: > > On Friday July 2 2004 04:12, Paul Robinson wrote: > >> Translation: we're going to work you like a dog and not > >> apologise for it or even thank you for dealing with the > >> chaotic sh**hole that is our company. Also, note the lack of > >> details relating to remuneration. So they're going to pay you > >> close to nothing to boot. And it requires you to move to New > >> Jersey! [deletia ...] > I see it as someone who is trying to fill a position and is > perhaps using the "are you up for a challenge" approach. Are you > good enough? That sort of thing. Yes this may scare off a few > people who will not read it that way but it sounds like he's a > bit frustrated. The last time I had to hire someone out of 300 > applications NONE ran a BSD or any other Nix box at home. As far > as they were concerned if it wasn't in their colleges lab, or at > their last employer it didn't exist. Many said or implied "If > the company expects me to learn something then they will teach > me or send me to school or at the very least buy my books or > training manuals." Ask them if they read up on things and yes > many will say, "well I read slash dot." (see above) I've worked with some HW support companies at places were I do sometimes admin work. Several of the techs have said "I'm going to have spend a few hours and learn Unix". They seem to think it's like learning some of the MS products that have books like "Learn xxx in 24 hours". And the term 'training manuals' to me implies the approach that trade-schools use. It's the subtle difference between being taught and being educated. The former tells you what to do step by step - and woe be unto you the day you come across something that you've not been taught the keystrokes for. The latter means understanding so that no matter what the problem you can figure out how to solve it and make things work again. I've been an outside consultant where a company hired a new grad and sent them off to a school to learn what they needed. None of them seemed to understand the system - just how to do certain things. I think it's a symptom of the modern education systems where people are taught to pass tests and are not educated in the field of their choice. Sorry for being cynical but I've seen too many who just can't cut it. And if you know how to read and understand things - then there is almost nothing you can't do. My biggest challenge was when I had less than 1/2 hour of being inside a Cisco 2501 - the people I was working for got a contract that required a DS3 and not the T1. I was given a 150 pound 7513 and had 8 days to get it up and running, migrate from one provider to another, and handle the big system remotely. After I was done they picked it up in a truck, moved it 20 miles, and plugged it in. I was able to get in via a fresh T1 but the DS3 wouldn't come up. This was the very first time I had configured FR and I missed one sub-parameter on the interface. Once that was done it worked. You don't learn things like that in books - you understand what has to be done - and do it. As I get older I'm getting more cynical. :-) > No we are Admins. Most managers could not give a crap what we > run as long as it works. BSD admins are a special breed however > I will give you that. We're picky. -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 23:29:25 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DB716A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:29:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F25743D4C for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:29:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [192.168.24.95] (adsl-68-125-125-246.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net [68.125.125.246]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E599881BC3; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <40E60081.1040300@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:40:33 -0700 From: Wes Peters User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.1 (Windows/20040626) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicole References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Lee Crites cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:29:25 -0000 Nicole wrote: > On 02-Jul-04 My Homeland Security Spies reported that Lee Crites said: > >>On Friday July 2 2004 04:12, Paul Robinson wrote: >> >>>Translation: we're going to work you like a dog and not apologise for it or >>>even thank you for dealing with the chaotic sh**hole that is our company. >>>Also, note the lack of details relating to remuneration. So they're going >>>to pay you close to nothing to boot. And it requires you to move to New >>>Jersey! > >>>These guys really aren't selling this position, and personally I'm offended >>>that they think the people on freebsd-jobs would be anything but >>>professional in their approach, and need to be reminded that they shouldn't >>>"coast". >>> >>>Is there a perception out there that we're all looking to sit around >>>picking our noses whilst reading slashdot? > > Well.. yea. When was the last time you tried to hire a sysadmin? Especially to > work for a small company that perhaps isn't on the top of the pay scale. > Frankly the time of a company having to "sell" a position is still gone. > Its you grok unix? You want eat? Why we hire you? Ug. > > [...] > > I see it as someone who is trying to fill a position and is perhaps using the > "are you up for a challenge" approach. Are you good enough? That sort of > thing. Yes this may scare off a few people who will not read it that way but > it sounds like he's a bit frustrated. The last time I had to hire someone out > of 300 applications NONE ran a BSD or any other Nix box at home. As far as > they were concerned if it wasn't in their colleges lab, or at their last > employer it didn't exist. Many said or implied "If the company expects me to > learn something then they will teach me or send me to school or at the > very least buy my books or training manuals." Ask them if they read up on > things and yes many will say, "well I read slash dot." (see above) My first impression was exactly the same as Paul's. I refrained from replying in similar fasion because firstly, I don't want to drive prospective employers away from this mailing list, and second because such a discussion really isn't in the scope of this mailing list. I also didn't reply directing the discussion to -chat because I'm just too lazy to do that. ;^) I *have* directed the reply-to for this message to chat@, where a discussion like this really belongs. Please, if you want to reply, follow the discussion there, OK? Let's give this guy a break. He probably is looking for good people who want to work, offering someone the opportunity to work on FreeBSD instead of Winders and still feed the family. These days, that makes him more hero than goat in my book. Maybe he should adopt and modify the old US Army recruiting slogan: "BSD all you can BSD." -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 2 23:30:34 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D3D16A4CE for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:30:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from juice.cibernet.com (xserve.cibernet.com [66.134.100.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B93F43D1F for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:30:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tal@whatexit.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by juice.cibernet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CA077F10D; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:30:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from juice.cibernet.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (juice.cibernet.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07559-06; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (ool-4351ec81.dyn.optonline.net [67.81.236.129]) by juice.cibernet.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B34D77F0FF; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:30:32 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20040702091205.GB20016@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040702091205.GB20016@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tom Limoncelli Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:30:16 -0400 To: Paul Robinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at cibernet.com cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:30:34 -0000 On Jul 2, 2004, at 5:12 AM, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 03:49:32PM -0400, jim@carroll.com wrote: > >> Don't bother applying if you are sloppy, used to working in big >> companies >> where lots of other people got work done for you. Please do NOT apply >> if you >> need somebody else to tell you minute-by-minute what to do next. >> Please do >> NOT apply if aren't prepared to run your own show. > > Translation: we're going to work you like a dog and not apologise for > it or > even thank you for dealing with the chaotic sh**hole that is our > company. > Also, note the lack of details relating to remuneration. So they're > going to > pay you close to nothing to boot. And it requires you to move to New > Jersey! Ha! You've never worked at big corporate sites where people act as if they're being paid to watch everyone else do work, in hopes that their project will be cancelled before anyone notices. I've seen people make a career out of this. My first day at one such company began with my new mentor sit me down and explain that he had been there 30 years, and that "the secret to success here is don't try to change ANYthing. Sure, our network has problems but if your change breaks anything everyone will notice." I couldn't get anything done until he was moved out of my department. The advert was, IMHO, perfect. I've always wanted to say a lot of those things in an advert. All power to him! And don't pick on New Jersey, Paul. First of all, Unix was invented there (so was the transistor, the laser, the silicon chip, and fiber open data transmission... I think you're career was helped my some of those things). Besides, I just had a terrible experience with people in the UK and I didn't automatically paint you with the same brush. You've also shown your ignorance: the town in NJ he mentioned is just over the river from NYC and benefits from all the culture and activity of New York, the best damn city in the world. > These guys really aren't selling this position, and personally I'm > offended > that they think the people on freebsd-jobs would be anything but > professional in their approach, and need to be reminded that they > shouldn't > "coast". What part of the kernel magically makes FreeBSD people smarter, less lazy, or better looking? Every OS/vendor/haircolor/whatever has smart people and dumb people, hard workers and lazy people. He wants someone with a personality that would be attracted by a "it's aint' gonna be easy but we'll do great things"-post. I was impressed that he was concerned with people-skills. It's easy for the best guru to piss off a lot of people and yet walk away oblivious. You can memorize every line of code in the kernel and yet still have lousy engineering skills, or lousy "people skills" that leave the users with a brilliant network that is completely unusable and ill-suited to their needs. > We're FreeBSD admins. Not MCSEs or Linux admins. Don't brag. They're paid more. Tom www.everythingsysadmin.com -- my life story, as a sysadmin book Tom Limoncelli www.everythingsysadmin.com -- two life stories, as a sysadmin book From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 02:14:02 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0746616A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:14:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302CA43D45 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:14:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dlavigne6@sympatico.ca) Received: from [192.168.2.87] ([64.230.30.218]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.netESMTP <20040703021400.SSFJ1984.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@[192.168.2.87]> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:14:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:16:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Dru X-X-Sender: dlavigne6@dru.domain.org To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20040702232425.GB11501@wjv.com> Message-ID: <20040702220305.O564@dru.domain.org> References: <200407020926.31217@cmav> <20040702232425.GB11501@wjv.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:14:02 -0000 On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Bill Vermillion wrote: > I've been an outside consultant where a company hired a new grad > and sent them off to a school to learn what they needed. None of > them seemed to understand the system - just how to do certain > things. I think it's a symptom of the modern education systems > where people are taught to pass tests and are not educated in > the field of their choice. And modern education systems are getting worse, not better. Since I entered the training scene in 1997, I've seen 3 year curriculums get cut down to 4 months. Government programs, scholarships, and bursary programs slashed down to pittances. Apparantly, IT isn't as hot as it used to be. Worse, many who are hiring prefer someone with only 4 months of training and a superficial understanding of what they're being paid to do. That way they'll follow their scripts unquestioningly and not complain at being paid $10 an hour. I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, thought provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to hash it out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this thread? Dru From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 02:38:13 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2088616A4CF for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:38:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from alpha.tibor.org (117-5-237-24.gci.net [24.237.5.117]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E236443D5D for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:38:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tibor@tibor.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpha.tibor.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D02FB299; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:38:12 -0800 (AKDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:38:12 -0800 (AKDT) From: Mike Tibor X-X-Sender: tibor@xena.mikey.net To: Dru In-Reply-To: <20040702220305.O564@dru.domain.org> Message-ID: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:38:13 -0000 On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Dru wrote: > I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD > training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, > thought provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to > hash it out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this > thread? In the absence of better suggestions, I'd be willing to setup and manage a list for that, depending on interest. Naturally those interested should reply to me off-list. Mike From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 20:11:01 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D4516A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:11:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7707D43D46 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:11:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BgqrO-000N1U-AT; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:11:42 +0100 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:11:42 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Mike Tibor Message-ID: <20040703201142.GG43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040702220305.O564@dru.domain.org> <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040702183604.A41037-100000@xena.mikey.net> Sender: Paul Robinson cc: Dru cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator) X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:11:01 -0000 On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 06:38:12PM -0800, Mike Tibor wrote: > > I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD > > training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, > > thought provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to > > hash it out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this > > thread? > > In the absence of better suggestions, I'd be willing to setup and manage a > list for that, depending on interest. Naturally those interested should > reply to me off-list. Oh, this old chestnut. This has been bashed out before. There are a lot of major issues here. My day job actually involves e-learning, accreditation, etc. and I know more about pedagogical analysis and how it relates to work-based continual professional development than I want to. The fact that I just wrote that paragraph proves it. Anyway, a wiki is better for modelling what people want and captures requirements into something useable, I think. I've started something at the link below, just with my initial thoughts, please edit it, change it, add to it, see what we get out of the other side: http://vagueware.com/Open_Training and the discussion could happen here: http://vagueware.com/Talk:Open_Training Trust me, if this just goes on and on in a mailing list, nothing will happen. It almost did a year or so ago, but failed. At least this way with some work we can put together a real plan on how to make this happen, and then we can go out and do it. Like one of the VagueWare.com slogans says, with a lot of really hard work, one day it could become vaporware. :-) -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 3 20:19:06 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FAC16A4CE for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:19:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from faceman.servitor.co.uk (faceman.servitor.co.uk [80.71.15.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2363D43D46 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:19:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wiggy@servitor.co.uk) Received: from wiggy by faceman.servitor.co.uk with local (Exim 4.30) id 1BgqzI-000N8t-Ev; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:19:52 +0100 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:19:52 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: Tom Limoncelli Message-ID: <20040703201952.GH43549@iconoplex.co.uk> References: <20040702091205.GB20016@iconoplex.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: Paul Robinson cc: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator X-BeenThere: freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Jobs offered and sought List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:19:06 -0000 On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 07:30:16PM -0400, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > The advert was, IMHO, perfect. I've always wanted to say a lot of > those things in an advert. All power to him! Well, some see it that way, some think it's offensive. I know I wouldn't apply, and after my ranting, I doubt he'd want me - I'm obviously not subserviant enough to handle his god-complex. > And don't pick on New Jersey, Paul. Actually, that was a very, very subtle joke picked out of an episode of Futurama. I've never been, so can't really comment on it. > What part of the kernel magically makes FreeBSD people smarter, less > lazy, or better looking? It's not the kernel. It's the attitude. I've worked with slashdotters and MCSEs who've never seen the inside of a PC, never mind know what a rack server is. My own experience, I say FreeBSD guys just tend to be better admins for some reason. There must be something about the attitude of the project as a whole that rubs off or appeals to the better admins. I don't know. Yes, I'm being subjective and offensive to MCSEs and Linux guys, but no more so than the original poster was to us. > I was impressed that he was concerned with people-skills. It's easy Yeah, he's really shown how many he has himself hasn't he? :-) > >We're FreeBSD admins. Not MCSEs or Linux admins. > > Don't brag. They're paid more. Speak for yourself. -- Paul Robinson http://www.iconoplex.co.uk/