From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 00:08:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A647816A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:08:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F4043D48 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:08:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CF060DB; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:08:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 59795-01; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:07:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7017260D8; Sat, 28 May 2005 19:07:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <429907E1.6030409@makeworld.com> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:08:01 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Jawed References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New layout concept URL X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:08:03 -0000 Nice job John. I like this one John Jawed wrote: > Caio, > > I will be gone for the rest of the evening, so I decided to commit todays > work on the new layout. What I will be doing is putting in a new directory > for each day I update the layout, please read the About the Layout section > for more info :) > > http://www.johnjawed.com/freebsd-redesign/ > > It's in it's early stages, so I appreciate all types of critique to get a > feel of what I'm doing right/wrong. > -- Best regards, Chris A little ambiguity never hurt anyone. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 06:51:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A5A16A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 20F4A43D48 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:51:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <4297348A.3000309@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <680ddc80f31a1c1131e1acee112192e1@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:51:51 +0200 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Cc: Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:51:56 -0000 On May 27, 2005, at 7:45 PM, Matt Olander wrote: > On May 27, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > >> What happened to this? >> http://www.monkey.org/freebsd/archive/freebsd-advocacy/200412/ >> msg00080.html >> >> I don't know if these were generated from real HTML/CSS or just >> created in >> a graphics editor. > > Actually, I've seen a front page that Chris did (I think) that's got > the nice menu across the top and a really well designed front page. It evolved into this: http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1j.gif A patch for the redesign was committed in Perforce and Devon O'Dell developed CSS based markup for it. Beyond that, moving forward has basically been on hold due to waiting for the outcome of the logo competition. Cheers, Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 06:59:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0584616A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:59:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8478943D1D for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 06:59:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 29 May 2005 08:58:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> References: <20050528165128.DEB8B1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com> <20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:59:17 +0200 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:59:20 -0000 On May 29, 2005, at 12:55 AM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2005-05-28 11:51, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: >>>> What happened to this? >>>> http://www.monkey.org/freebsd/archive/freebsd-advocacy/200412/ >>>> msg00080.html >>>> >>>> I don't know if these were generated from real HTML/CSS or just >>>> created in a graphics editor. >>> >>> Actually, I've seen a front page that Chris did (I think) that's got >>> the nice menu across the top and a really well designed front page. >> >> I just wanted to point out; >> >> There's *nothing* new about that design. >> It still follows the old principles. > > It's ok. Small incremental changes are easier to test and accept than > a > full "throw it all away and use mine" style of update. > > The site now uses CSS a lot more than before, AFAIK. I'm not a web > design guru, but if someone came up with a style that looks like, say, > Wikipedia it would be interesting. > > Any takers who want to try revamping the front page by using *only* CSS > style changes? Yes, that was exactly the idea. There is a version committed in Perforce that took that approach and looks like this: http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html For now, the logo competition has put a wrench in going live with a small redesign like this. Specially for all the content pages besides the frontpage, it is crucial to implement a redesign in a way that is compatible with the current way these pages are built. A redesign that requires changes beyond that will take forever to implement. What many don't seem to understand is that the technical implementation of the design and the design itself are two different things. They can't both happen at the same time. Changing the technical implementation will be a slow process that requires a long term transition without changing the design at the same time. The redesign itself is something that is implemented within the existing technical framework and can be switched live at once. I still argue that we need to first switch a small redesign live within the current technical framework, then change the technical framework (which will require updates to the markup of all the pages in the www cvs tree for all the languages) and only after that we can undertake a major redesign entirely based on CSS definitions. Going a bit farther with just the frontpage is possible as long as it is in line with the initially simple changes that can be made to the content pages. For example Devon's div-based markup with the dynamic menues that is currently in Perforce: http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1j.gif Cheers, Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 07:14:26 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA4D16A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:14:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCB243D49 for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:14:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j4T6qQgs054613 for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 23:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id j4T6qQMT054612 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 23:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matto) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:52:26 -0700 From: Matt Olander To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050528235226.A54593@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <4297348A.3000309@401.cx> <680ddc80f31a1c1131e1acee112192e1@czv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <680ddc80f31a1c1131e1acee112192e1@czv.com>; from chris@czv.com on Sun, May 29, 2005 at 08:51:51AM +0200 Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:14:26 -0000 On Sun, May 29, 2005 at 08:51:51AM +0200, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > It evolved into this: > > http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1j.gif Ah. Thanks Chris, that's what I was looking for. I think that's a pretty nice looking frontpage design! -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 07:18:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A828D16A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:18:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johnjawed@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.204]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9A143D1F for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 07:18:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johnjawed@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so2022977wri for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:18:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=NVcwR/H0lvOHmAMH+EQc5hyqJiVgPBX+gAOkHozJyD5PGj14O4KWdR3VJpUmmLjxvGsCvL9FKxxID8y1UWFV42ab4ZT19+YL7x0YiyDdT16ESmi4A9qYPg637ySEkt3p3EZYMOgZEpZXbILlqJ7L7OwuBJueJZQMNxxXAQMq8yA= Received: by 10.54.91.3 with SMTP id o3mr4097684wrb; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.132.10 with HTTP; Sun, 29 May 2005 00:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:18:07 -0700 From: John Jawed To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <20050528165128.DEB8B1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com> <20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John Jawed List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 07:18:10 -0000 That design is very good. Like I said before, my design is still in it's=20 early stages, and I've taken time to make it completely in CSS...so it is= =20 easy to implement with current/dynamic content. I think it's a waste of time to try to keep propogating a small redesign=20 (you would have to propogate every table property, etc) through the entire= =20 site, and then again do a complete revamp of it. The FreeBSD site has been= =20 up for how long now? I think people have gotten used to it's current look.= =20 If introducing a new look is the idea, then introduce it, not it's watered= =20 down version...just to change it yet again. Consistency is one of the main= =20 goals all software related projects should undertake.=20 Changing it once with a small redesign, then changing it again with a whole= =20 new redesign, then possibly again, just makes for no consistent behavior.= =20 IMHO, only one change should be to make a move to an all CSS layout.=20 Dropping these table orientated styles will open many new doors for the=20 FreeBSD site, including, an easy to port mobile version of the documentatio= n=20 (imagine getting the help you need properly formatted and easy to read=20 through your PDA). Regards On 5/28/05, Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >=20 > On May 29, 2005, at 12:55 AM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >=20 > > On 2005-05-28 11:51, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > >>>> What happened to this? > >>>> http://www.monkey.org/freebsd/archive/freebsd-advocacy/200412/ > >>>> msg00080.html > >>>> > >>>> I don't know if these were generated from real HTML/CSS or just > >>>> created in a graphics editor. > >>> > >>> Actually, I've seen a front page that Chris did (I think) that's got > >>> the nice menu across the top and a really well designed front page. > >> > >> I just wanted to point out; > >> > >> There's *nothing* new about that design. > >> It still follows the old principles. > > > > It's ok. Small incremental changes are easier to test and accept than > > a > > full "throw it all away and use mine" style of update. > > > > The site now uses CSS a lot more than before, AFAIK. I'm not a web > > design guru, but if someone came up with a style that looks like, say, > > Wikipedia it would be interesting. > > > > Any takers who want to try revamping the front page by using *only* CSS > > style changes? >=20 > Yes, that was exactly the idea. There is a version committed in > Perforce that took that approach and looks like this: >=20 > http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html > http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html >=20 > For now, the logo competition has put a wrench in going live with a > small redesign like this. >=20 > Specially for all the content pages besides the frontpage, it is > crucial to implement a redesign in a way that is compatible with the > current way these pages are built. A redesign that requires changes > beyond that will take forever to implement. What many don't seem to > understand is that the technical implementation of the design and the > design itself are two different things. They can't both happen at the > same time. >=20 > Changing the technical implementation will be a slow process that > requires a long term transition without changing the design at the same > time. The redesign itself is something that is implemented within the > existing technical framework and can be switched live at once. >=20 > I still argue that we need to first switch a small redesign live within > the current technical framework, then change the technical framework > (which will require updates to the markup of all the pages in the www > cvs tree for all the languages) and only after that we can undertake a > major redesign entirely based on CSS definitions. >=20 > Going a bit farther with just the frontpage is possible as long as it > is in line with the initially simple changes that can be made to the > content pages. For example Devon's div-based markup with the dynamic > menues that is currently in Perforce: >=20 > http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1j.gif >=20 > Cheers, Chris >=20 > chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 > Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ > Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g > " >=20 --=20 John Jawed Zend Certified Software Engineer MySQL AB Certified Developer http://www.johnjawed.com http://groups-beta.google.com/group/MySQLi From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 14:26:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E2116A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:26:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: from smtprelay04.ispgateway.de (smtprelay04.ispgateway.de [80.67.18.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3CC43D1D for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 14:26:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: (qmail 24492 invoked from network); 29 May 2005 14:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([pbs]775067@[83.129.7.168]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay04.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 29 May 2005 14:25:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:25:46 +0200 From: Fabian Keil To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050529162546.21d97df4@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: <20050528165128.DEB8B1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com> <20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Signature_Sun__29_May_2005_16_25_46_+0200_raeJNB_h+x+rF72F; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Cc: chris@czv.com Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 14:26:02 -0000 --Signature_Sun__29_May_2005_16_25_46_+0200_raeJNB_h+x+rF72F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On May 29, 2005, at 12:55 AM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >=20 > > On 2005-05-28 11:51, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > >>>> What happened to this? > >>>> http://www.monkey.org/freebsd/archive/freebsd-advocacy/200412/=20 > >>>> msg00080.html > >>>> > >>>> I don't know if these were generated from real HTML/CSS or just > >>>> created in a graphics editor. > >>> > >>> Actually, I've seen a front page that Chris did (I think) that's got > >>> the nice menu across the top and a really well designed front page. > >> > >> I just wanted to point out; > >> > >> There's *nothing* new about that design. > >> It still follows the old principles. > > > > It's ok. Small incremental changes are easier to test and accept than= =20 > > a > > full "throw it all away and use mine" style of update. > > > > The site now uses CSS a lot more than before, AFAIK. I'm not a web > > design guru, but if someone came up with a style that looks like, say, > > Wikipedia it would be interesting. > > > > Any takers who want to try revamping the front page by using *only* CSS > > style changes? >=20 > Yes, that was exactly the idea. There is a version committed in=20 > Perforce that took that approach and looks like this: >=20 > http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html > http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html Looks good. Was there already a discussion if the links should stay underlined or not? IMHO they should.=20 Fabian --=20 http://www.fabiankeil.de/ --Signature_Sun__29_May_2005_16_25_46_+0200_raeJNB_h+x+rF72F Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCmdD1bmGO+3DrZ9sRAhS4AJ0R3oIZW6uQ+MkTZ9ASozgbSvWt2QCfR7gW OYWpr8RRFpum/kZvrwkdvbo= =oBIH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature_Sun__29_May_2005_16_25_46_+0200_raeJNB_h+x+rF72F-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 15:00:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C1C16A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:00:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from engine140.deployzone.net (engine140.deployzone.net [193.17.85.140]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A643F43D1F for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:00:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chris@czv.com) Received: from adsl-212-90-218-5.cybernet.ch [212.90.218.5] by engine140.deployzone.net; Sun, 29 May 2005 16:59:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20050529162546.21d97df4@localhost> References: <20050528165128.DEB8B1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com><20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> <20050529162546.21d97df4@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0c19a828b89deb289d6977f01a24b86c@czv.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Zumbrunn Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:00:23 +0200 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Cc: Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:00:25 -0000 On May 29, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Fabian Keil wrote: > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > >> Yes, that was exactly the idea. There is a version committed in >> Perforce that took that approach and looks like this: >> >> http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html >> http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > > Looks good. Was there already a discussion if the links > should stay underlined or not? IMHO they should. Yes, Ceri Davies took a very strong stand in favor of keeping the underlines: On Jan 12, 2005, at 8:52 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: > In short: I will not commit, and will request a backout of, any patch > that turns off underlined links on the website. I may not stop short > of > backing it out myself either, and with that said I'll try not to reply > to this thread any more, for the sake of everyone's sanity. That thread is in the freebsd-www archive... http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-www/2005-January/001934.html I would personally prefer to drop the underlines. /czv From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 29 15:02:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538D216A41C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9091943D4C for ; Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226]) by rosebud.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with SMTP id j4TF07Cd022504; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:00:07 +0300 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) by orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j4TF1wMi012029; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:01:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j4TF1wLj012028; Sun, 29 May 2005 18:01:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 18:01:58 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Fabian Keil Message-ID: <20050529150158.GA11914@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <20050528165128.DEB8B1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com> <20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> <20050529162546.21d97df4@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050529162546.21d97df4@localhost> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, chris@czv.com Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:08 -0000 On 2005-05-29 16:25, Fabian Keil wrote: >Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >> http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html >> http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > > Looks good. Was there already a discussion if the links should stay > underlined or not? IMHO they should. Yes, there was. I recall Ceri Davies mentioning it in the past. Thanks for pointing this out :-) I also agree that underlining is useful most of the time. At least a couple of my friends have sight problems that prevent them from seeing colours the way most people do. Underlining is immensely helpful in those cases. - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 07:49:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D457C16A41F for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:49:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johnjawed@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4893743D1D for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 07:49:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johnjawed@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so2257858wri for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:49:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=G683WctKHb+PG9ZlBaiCEJJ5xF4OnjbN8eMlJeXAe+5D70Ccfb7qhr8nHGvmR0xxHZvUrAnNaLvmiZEKOqeYIy9SUExlNs26V+sS+he7mp8lHSVsrlerfVY6QYgbrKmvCPbJ3AnnG9L1vZkLbqpvUm6eOMn3yAYjXrlbGcL8URY= Received: by 10.54.91.3 with SMTP id o3mr5189989wrb; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.132.10 with HTTP; Mon, 30 May 2005 00:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:49:40 -0700 From: John Jawed To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John Jawed List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:49:42 -0000 I've tried to amend to the best of my ability the resizing issues mentioned= =20 earlier. I think, if you do not know much about CSS layouts, that you shoul= d=20 expect some type of distortion at some unrealistically small resolutions=20 (less than 800x600).=20 CSS layouts are not suitable for columns, they are built to be fluid=20 layouts. Fluid !=3D table/column based layout, so resizing the window at sm= all=20 resolutions will get you wierd results. I was able to resize rather small= =20 before I started to see any distortion. Hopefully the next update will include my take on the current footer. Again, all feedback is appreciated and looked forward to. http://www.johnjawed.com/freebsd-redesign/30-05-2005/ Regards From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 08:10:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE7916A41F for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 81D3A43D48 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:10:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 23896 invoked from network); 30 May 2005 08:10:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 30 May 2005 08:10:25 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050530081025.SNFA1130.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:10:25 +0800 Message-ID: <429ACA6F.9000302@pacific.net.sg> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:10:23 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Jawed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:10:29 -0000 Hi, John Jawed wrote: > I've tried to amend to the best of my ability the resizing issues mentioned > earlier. I think, if you do not know much about CSS layouts, that you should > expect some type of distortion at some unrealistically small resolutions > (less than 800x600). > Try to use a fixed width for the left and right columns. > CSS layouts are not suitable for columns, they are built to be fluid It gets tricky. > Again, all feedback is appreciated and looked forward to. > I would like to have bigger characters. They become pretty small on a 1280*768 with only 10". Do not use px for the character size, use pt and you get the same character size independent of the screen resolution. I also use mm for the unit. This is the same story. No matter what resolution the screen has, 10mm are 10 mm. Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 08:48:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A865C16A41F for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:48:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECDFF43D1F for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:48:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A47C6.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.71.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j4U8mp8o026305 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 10:48:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j4U8moeV001389 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 10:48:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j4U8mo6w003409 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 10:48:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200505300848.j4U8mo6w003409@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Zumbrunn of "Sun, 29 May 2005 17:00:23 +0200." <0c19a828b89deb289d6977f01a24b86c@czv.com> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:48:50 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:48:55 -0000 Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > That thread is in the freebsd-www archive... > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-www/2005-January/001934.html > > I would personally prefer to drop the underlines. Please: Those who want to influence http://www.freebsd.org subscribe www@ & Do It There ! http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-www "About freebsd-www English (USA) A mailing list that allows you to send mail to the Webmasters, the managers of FreeBSD Project web servers (not web servers that hosted on FreeBSD computers). To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the freebsd-www Archives. " - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 09:32:49 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B36516A41C; Mon, 30 May 2005 09:32:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B979943D1F; Mon, 30 May 2005 09:32:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [10.3.101.26] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j4U9WkIP071408; Mon, 30 May 2005 11:32:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <429ADDB9.2000608@401.cx> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:32:41 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <429ACA6F.9000302@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <429ACA6F.9000302@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:32:49 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > John Jawed wrote: > >> I've tried to amend to the best of my ability the resizing issues >> mentioned earlier. I think, if you do not know much about CSS layouts, >> that you should expect some type of distortion at some unrealistically >> small resolutions (less than 800x600). > > Try to use a fixed width for the left and right columns. I beg to differ, use fixed size for the middle column instead and let the right side column get whatever is left over. The problem on my screen is that the right side column is way to wide and squeezes the middle column into a thin stripe of text, basically unreadable. Believe it or not, but the most common resolution today is still 800x600. And, even with a 19" screen and 1280x1024, I *never* use my browser full-screen, I keep it at around half the screen size, and I basically refuse to use websites that does not scale well to this size. And I know Im not the only one. Designing webpages for big screens with high resolutions is just bad practice, imho! -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 13:15:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DC716A41F for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 13:15:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stucchi@willystudios.com) Received: from annibale.willystudios.com (annibale.willystudios.com [216.120.241.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7C3543D1F for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 13:15:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stucchi@willystudios.com) Received: (qmail 19741 invoked from network); 30 May 2005 12:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO max.willystudios.com) (193.25.178.163) by annibale.willystudios.com with SMTP; 30 May 2005 12:59:32 -0000 Received: by max.willystudios.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8943B64B; Mon, 30 May 2005 15:14:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:14:28 +0200 From: Massimiliano Stucchi To: Bruno Gallant Message-ID: <20050530131428.GC430@willystudios.com> References: <40356a6605052613077f9db585@mail.gmail.com> <20050527170135.GN64937@willystudios.com> <40356a6605052711465543f1a4@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Clx92ZfkiYIKRjnr" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <40356a6605052711465543f1a4@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.10-STABLE X-URL: http://www.willystudios.com/max/ X-Organization: WillyStudios.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: stucchi@willystudios.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:15:12 -0000 --Clx92ZfkiYIKRjnr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 270505, 14:46, Bruno Gallant wrote: > Thank you! Now that _is_ a constructive counter-argument. >=20 > It's true that mambo server is a basic utility, but you need to > transfer only a single directory, and dump a single database and > transfer this. A simple script can do that. How many mirrors does the > project have? I don't see a real problem unless there is over a > thousand mirrors... I'm basically talking about PHP and MySQL. Although almost everybody uses them, there's always been the choice of avoiding them for the FreeBSD website, and to maintain backwards compatibility there shouldn't be the need now. The website as it is right now is very lightweight and easy to mirror (just a cvsup and a make once a day), and it only consists of static html pages, giving it a very small footprint even on small servers. Cheers --=20 Massimiliano Stucchi WillyStudios.com stucchi@willystudios.com Http://www.willystudios.com/max/ --Clx92ZfkiYIKRjnr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCmxG0FwcpJfdZDoERAmveAJ4nbA/g6ahya+0gyuFeadhIU6MHZACfcsas zNUN2LBy98NevyFVMGo0j3w= =w6FH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Clx92ZfkiYIKRjnr-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 13:42:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1119A16A41C for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 13:42:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D6243D4C for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 13:41:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 4C2841800207 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 13:41:59 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.49) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 30 May 2005 13:41:59 -0000 Received: by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2E70D4BEAE; Mon, 30 May 2005 13:41:59 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 2.117 (F2.6; A1.17; B2.12; Q2.03) Received: from [213.187.181.70] by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for fteg@london.com; Mon, 30 May 2005 08:41:59 -0500 X-Mailer: mail.com webmail From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" To: "John Jawed" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:41:59 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 213.187.181.70 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050530134159.2E70D4BEAE@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Cc: Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:42:00 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Jawed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: [30-05-05] Layout update Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:49:40 -0700 >=20 > I've tried to amend to the best of my ability the resizing issues mention= ed > earlier. I think, if you do not know much about CSS layouts, that you sho= uld > expect some type of distortion at some unrealistically small resolutions > (less than 800x600). >=20 > CSS layouts are not suitable for columns, they are built to be fluid > layouts. Fluid !=3D table/column based layout, so resizing the window at = small > resolutions will get you wierd results. I was able to resize rather small > before I started to see any distortion. >=20 > Hopefully the next update will include my take on the current footer. >=20 > Again, all feedback is appreciated and looked forward to. >=20 > http://www.johnjawed.com/freebsd-redesign/30-05-2005/ >=20 > Regards > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" You're wasting your time, the webdesign contest hasn't started yet. Your design is very clear and mature, however it doesn't give the project the corporate feel that it requires to sustain among the big players. Don't give away your ideas this early :) Make them better, and use them to win that competition! -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 14:21:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14A316A41C; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:21:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) Received: from redqueen.elvandar.org (redqueen.evilcoder-services.org [217.148.169.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9DE43D49; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:21:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by redqueen.elvandar.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B90295479; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:21:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from redqueen.elvandar.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (redqueen.evilcoder-services.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 21420-01; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from webmail.evilcoder.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by redqueen.elvandar.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C6A295473; Mon, 30 May 2005 16:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <62091.145.221.92.41.1117462905.squirrel@webmail.evilcoder.org> In-Reply-To: <20050530134159.2E70D4BEAE@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050530134159.2E70D4BEAE@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 16:21:45 +0200 (CEST) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by the evilcoder-services.org maildomain Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:21:47 -0000 On Mon, May 30, 2005 15:41, Fafa Hafiz Krantz said: Hi Fafa! > You're wasting your time, the webdesign contest hasn't started yet. > So? So far i have only seen complaints from you and no actual contribution to the discussion and ideas. If you want to talk along, please consider thinking what can be done and what looks great instead of just complaining. > Your design is very clear and mature, however it doesn't give the > project > the corporate feel that it requires to sustain among the big players. We need a simple site that does what it needs to do; we do not have to be a big player for that. Please keep your head on your shoulders; it's currently flying away from you. > Don't give away your ideas this early :) > Make them better, and use them to win that competition! Life isn't about winning competition's. The contributors to FreeBSD think it's just a way of life to help eachother instead of winning etc. Other operating systems might have that opinion but i personally think we are just a happy camp of users who are willing to create a great product. So my advise would actually be ; bring your ideas so we can think with all of us (with usefull feedback instead of rants!) how we want to have the new freebsd site. > > -- > > Fafa Hafiz Krantz > Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop > Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder ** remko@elvandar.org Reporter DSINET ** remko@DSINet.org Founder Tienervaders ** remko@tienervaders.org FreeBSD DocTeam & SecTeam ** remko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 14:26:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0082316A41C; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:26:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEB643D53; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:26:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226]) by rosebud.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with SMTP id j4UEOsWI029819; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:24:55 +0300 Received: from orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (orion [127.0.0.1]) by orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j4UEQkM4084089; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:26:46 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by orion.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j4UEQj7r084088; Mon, 30 May 2005 17:26:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:26:45 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Fafa Hafiz Krantz Message-ID: <20050530142645.GA84049@orion.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <20050530134159.2E70D4BEAE@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050530134159.2E70D4BEAE@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:26:50 -0000 On 2005-05-30 08:41, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > From: "John Jawed" > > http://www.johnjawed.com/freebsd-redesign/30-05-2005/ > > You're wasting your time, the webdesign contest hasn't started yet. > > Your design is very clear and mature, however it doesn't give the project > the corporate feel that it requires to sustain among the big players. > > Don't give away your ideas this early :) > Make them better, and use them to win that competition! Sorry, but no. - There is no "website design competition". This means that John (like everyone else) is free to spend his time any way he pleases. His design is actually rather lightweight and cool (apart from minor column size problems and font sizes), so I see no reason to avoid showing it around. - It makes no sense to "keep stuff to yourself", if you're making it in the first place in order to give it to the FreeBSD project. I say "John keep the good work up" and I'm sure he has already contacted all the right people who are not working in Perforce towards the same goal :-) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 14:32:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A118516A41C for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:32:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684EE43D49 for ; Mon, 30 May 2005 14:32:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238CD3D42 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:31:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 10:32:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <429AEBD5.25942.238AF2B0@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20050530134159.2E70D4BEAE@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:32:54 -0000 On 30 May 2005 at 8:41, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote: > > Again, all feedback is appreciated and looked forward to. > > > > http://www.johnjawed.com/freebsd-redesign/30-05-2005/ John: As I warned, please ignore the flamers and trolls. Keep going. > You're wasting your time, the webdesign contest hasn't started yet. > > Your design is very clear and mature, however it doesn't give the > project the corporate feel that it requires to sustain among the big > players. > > Don't give away your ideas this early :) > Make them better, and use them to win that competition! -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 30 23:08:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F47416A41C; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:08:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-144-206-250.jan.bellsouth.net [70.144.206.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E544A43D1F; Mon, 30 May 2005 23:08:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id ED8C721020; Mon, 30 May 2005 18:08:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:08:08 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20050530230808.GA60911@over-yonder.net> References: <429ACA6F.9000302@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <429ACA6F.9000302@pacific.net.sg> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i-fullermd.2 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:08:11 -0000 On Mon, May 30, 2005 at 04:10:23PM +0800 I heard the voice of Erich Dollansky, and lo! it spake thus: > > I would like to have bigger characters. They become pretty small on > a 1280*768 with only 10". > > Do not use px for the character size, use pt and you get the same > character size independent of the screen resolution. Well, this is one of those ongoing eternal flamewars, now isn't it? :p px is better than pt on screen, because pt is interpreted differently on some platforms. I'm on the side of "don't use absolute units" myself. I *KNOW* how big I want my fonts to be, which is why I have my browser set like I do. That doesn't make it right for YOU. Size relative, so your headers are a bit bigger, your asides a bit smaller, etc. Don't try and tell me what size I want my fonts. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 17:04:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D60816A41C for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 17:04:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537DD43D1F for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 17:04:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:3773 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1DdAA9-0000O9-3U; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:04:21 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:04:21 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E07FB@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: 'John Jawed' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:04:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: RE: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:04:23 -0000 From: John Jawed [mailto:johnjawed@gmail.com] > > I've tried to amend to the best of my ability the resizing issues > mentioned earlier. I think, if you do not know much about CSS > layouts, that you should expect some type of distortion at some > unrealistically small resolutions (less than 800x600). I don't think less than 800x600 is unrealistically small. I have a 21" CRT with 1600x1200, and I routinely have browser windows with widths less than 800. Why? So that I can have two windows side by side on my screen. Add in room for the window borders and scroll bars, you're significantly less than 800 width. For this reason I recommend a minimum width of no more than 750. Actually, the smaller the minimum you can get the better. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 17:35:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F45216A454 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 17:35:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED6C43D1F for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 17:35:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 16so1534496nzp for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:35:28 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jQPKt/7PZ1QhzJQ8ZgdMmAdZ9c+9zJFYpjBpGeTvTk182OYXrNNWoIAUgglMhZs2MClvj2hTJIbfMHgdYtMJ+i6z/mu4q+rPmAX/6YmBjeOqfqIa1lZiYvvl/2g4ZT9Q3iOJVo6cS16svehsu4172DpT1sN7hR9KYfJs+PFcUhg= Received: by 10.36.34.1 with SMTP id h1mr1918799nzh; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.34.10 with HTTP; Tue, 31 May 2005 10:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:35:26 +0300 From: Sander Vesik To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <4298E16B.5030403@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <200505281540.j4SFevod017236@fire.jhs.private> <4298E16B.5030403@401.cx> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Subject: Re: Romanian BitDefender for FreeBSD Mail Servers line X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:35:30 -0000 On 5/29/05, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > And, if I understood it correctly, he was not requesting an > immediate change to the webpage. He stepped up and announced a > *will* to change it, and was asking for feedback and thoughts. > When the community, ie advocacy@, approves of his work and agrees > on a actual website change, then it would be time to involve the > webmasters (they are of course welcome to join the discussion > earlier if they so wish). >=20 This is *UTTER* crap. he is talking about a simple issue with the web pages and one for which channels for cahnge already exist. There is no point in even talking about the "community" on advocacy approving anything about the web pages before there is in fact a community on advocacy@ and it has establshed an ability and will for looking at web page issue. And even so, this would *NOT* fal lunder that even then. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 18:29:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4506016A420 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 18:29:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AC843D49 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 18:29:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [192.168.200.2] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j4VIT9e4004536; Tue, 31 May 2005 20:29:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <429CACF5.9060802@401.cx> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:29:09 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sander Vesik References: <200505281540.j4SFevod017236@fire.jhs.private> <4298E16B.5030403@401.cx> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Daniel Subject: Re: Romanian BitDefender for FreeBSD Mail Servers line X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:29:12 -0000 Sander Vesik wrote: > On 5/29/05, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>And, if I understood it correctly, he was not requesting an >>immediate change to the webpage. He stepped up and announced a >>*will* to change it, and was asking for feedback and thoughts. >>When the community, ie advocacy@, approves of his work and agrees >>on a actual website change, then it would be time to involve the >>webmasters (they are of course welcome to join the discussion >>earlier if they so wish). >> > This is *UTTER* crap. he is talking about a simple issue with the web > pages and one for which channels for cahnge already exist. There is no > point in even talking about the "community" on advocacy approving > anything about the web pages before there is in fact a community on > advocacy@ and it has establshed an ability and will for looking at web > page issue. And even so, this would *NOT* fal lunder that even then. Since this discussion arises almost on a monthly basis on advocacy@, I think we can safely say that a will to change the current website clearly exists. Likewise, a will *not* to change the website also exists, since posts like yours above always manages to kill any attempts to do so. And please stop refering to it as an "issue". There are no issues or problems you can point your finger at here. He proposed a new *design* of the webpage, and I cant think of a better place to ask then advocacy, since it is in fact the public image of FreeBSD as a whole we are talking about. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 21:35:17 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65C316A41C for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:35:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526FB43D55 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:35:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sander.vesik@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so130449nzk for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DHYQGFMM0CXmA9wgurkfy6dnb57iBTj+1aDO6KNagRtuxCots6dKmfMoI1W1fDbR/Plq+cbtL2zhA0cwoHFqgljCwOm3oHNaNdMQHuRrLjHSVGbk/QgY3nYJ2Mda7IRjTb1C1sZ8L/geQ6lRsC6PFmGHO2NoZUk8+lDUx57XLjA= Received: by 10.36.100.17 with SMTP id x17mr2006778nzb; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.34.10 with HTTP; Tue, 31 May 2005 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 00:35:16 +0300 From: Sander Vesik To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg In-Reply-To: <429CACF5.9060802@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <200505281540.j4SFevod017236@fire.jhs.private> <4298E16B.5030403@401.cx> <429CACF5.9060802@401.cx> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Romanian BitDefender for FreeBSD Mail Servers line X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Sander Vesik List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:35:17 -0000 On 5/31/05, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Sander Vesik wrote: > > On 5/29/05, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > > > >>And, if I understood it correctly, he was not requesting an > >>immediate change to the webpage. He stepped up and announced a > >>*will* to change it, and was asking for feedback and thoughts. > >>When the community, ie advocacy@, approves of his work and agrees > >>on a actual website change, then it would be time to involve the > >>webmasters (they are of course welcome to join the discussion > >>earlier if they so wish). > >> > > This is *UTTER* crap. he is talking about a simple issue with the web > > pages and one for which channels for cahnge already exist. There is no > > point in even talking about the "community" on advocacy approving > > anything about the web pages before there is in fact a community on > > advocacy@ and it has establshed an ability and will for looking at web > > page issue. And even so, this would *NOT* fal lunder that even then. >=20 > Since this discussion arises almost on a monthly basis on > advocacy@, I think we can safely say that a will to change the > current website clearly exists. Likewise, a will *not* to change > the website also exists, since posts like yours above always > manages to kill any attempts to do so. No. By and far (with admitedly small exceptions), there is will to endlesslessly talk about the web page and changing it and far less to actually do anything. > And please stop refering to it as an "issue". There are no issues > or problems you can point your finger at here. He proposed a new > *design* of the webpage, and I cant think of a better place to No he didn't - he pointed out that some links on the page - refering to bitdefender - were wrong. Did you actualy read his mail? > ask then advocacy, since it is in fact the public image of > FreeBSD as a whole we are talking about. >=20 > -- > R > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 21:41:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD5316A41C for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:41:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5C443D1D for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:41:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A4527.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.69.39]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j4VLf18o032232 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:41:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j4VLewvf003110 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:40:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j4VLewRi022517 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:40:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200505312140.j4VLewRi022517@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" of "Tue, 31 May 2005 20:29:09 +0200." <429CACF5.9060802@401.cx> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:40:58 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Advocacy projects need manpower. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:41:05 -0000 Background: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > *design* of the webpage, and I cant think of a better place to > ask then advocacy, No need to Think ;-) _Read_ http://www.freebsd.org : Register the URLs the web obsessed should already be complying with: www@freebsd.org webmaster@freebsd.org send-pr & set Category: www & Send diffs to commit to cvs/www to the above. Much noise on advocacy@ concerns presentation style of http://www.freebsd.org, so has as much impact as farting in the wind, as http://www.freebsd.org defines content as done by those behind the 3 URLs above, Not done by those on advocacy@ I can't see those running http://www.freebsd.org should give a damn what we on advocacy@ think, when so many here who _claim_ to be web volunteers with plans to change stuff, are so ill disciplined, they don't even comply with URLs provided to co-ordinate web maintenance. Useful Non Back Seat Driver Work Advocacy@ Could Do Instead: Form small teams to create (Not talk about) & maintain a single page printable double sided (letter And A4) 2 fold 3 column leaflet titled: "Why FreeBSD, Not Linux ?" similar to eg BSD leaflet (eg http://berklix.org/bim/leaflet/). Take that Makefile + Tex structure as a start if you want. Multi lingual too later ? Create (not talk about) And maintain a FreeBSD `slide show / presentation (eg ports/misc/magicpoint format, usable on any cheap laptop to hand, (not just high end open office / starwriter capable laptops)' For use with office projectors (beamers). Both for use in short notice, no time to prepare, quick download, print, & convince type scenarios, to management & chambers of commerce & installathons etc. Whenever such opportunities arise, there rarely seems time to prepare for it, so we should have something permanently ready to download. If there are volunteers who want to work on those, I can provide (on http://berklix.org servers) extra mail lists, + web(*) space & logins, a CVS facility too later if needed. (*) I'm Not offering to support web page rehashing of http://www.freebsd.org, just to support leaflet & `slide show' production & maintenance). Encourage noisey back seat web drivers to divert to the 3 URLs above. Lets be quieter & contribute something useful, not make irrelevant web noise. - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 21:45:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E521C16A41C for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:45:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D63043D49 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 21:45:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [192.168.200.2] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j4VLjiGx007837; Tue, 31 May 2005 23:45:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <429CDB05.6090405@401.cx> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:45:41 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sander Vesik References: <200505281540.j4SFevod017236@fire.jhs.private> <4298E16B.5030403@401.cx> <429CACF5.9060802@401.cx> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Romanian BitDefender for FreeBSD Mail Servers line X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:45:48 -0000 Sander Vesik wrote: > On 5/31/05, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >>Since this discussion arises almost on a monthly basis on >>advocacy@, I think we can safely say that a will to change the >>current website clearly exists. Likewise, a will *not* to change >>the website also exists, since posts like yours above always >>manages to kill any attempts to do so. > > > No. By and far (with admitedly small exceptions), there is will to > endlesslessly talk about the web page and changing it and far less to > actually do anything. And you know this how? I can assure you that we are quite a few people that are already working on improving the website. The "hostility", in lack of a better word, has convinced atleast me to do my work in the silent untill I have enough content to show to not have to deal with all the "show us the code" zealots. And I know that there are several others doing similar work. >>And please stop refering to it as an "issue". There are no issues >>or problems you can point your finger at here. He proposed a new >>*design* of the webpage, and I cant think of a better place to > > No he didn't - he pointed out that some links on the page - refering > to bitdefender - were wrong. Did you actualy read his mail? Yes, here you are correct, I confused this thread with another similar thread running at the same time. My bad, I apologize. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 31 22:12:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000C616A41C for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:12:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johnjawed@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872F543D49 for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 22:12:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from johnjawed@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so2953949wri for ; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:12:27 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=qYazPjxsp3IilQtrXZIW1LqzcLefNWNywq0rVgone5yWbjgfJA0F3W+q0AXphtZTdkLGjy0F2+xi34MdwGAWSQiqZjcB0qNSsej9ED+mTWIwlZllS6lJqJABIbCEjPo1A3UsCfcptAUBGQFWDBgTEu6UUxuQ3/+hqDPxjkzkMAc= Received: by 10.54.46.37 with SMTP id t37mr7021769wrt; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.132.10 with HTTP; Tue, 31 May 2005 15:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:12:26 -0700 From: John Jawed To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200505312140.j4VLewRi022517@fire.jhs.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <429CACF5.9060802@401.cx> <200505312140.j4VLewRi022517@fire.jhs.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: Advocacy projects need manpower. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John Jawed List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:12:28 -0000 I'm sorry, I know I was one of the ones guilty of the site layout concerns= =20 on advocacy. You (or possibly others) raised concerns about this, and I hav= e=20 since moved all of my related subject(s) to freebsd-www. Regards On 5/31/05, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >=20 > Background: > "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > > *design* of the webpage, and I cant think of a better place to > > ask then advocacy, >=20 > No need to Think ;-) _Read_ http://www.freebsd.org : > Register the URLs the web obsessed should already be complying with: > www@freebsd.org > webmaster@freebsd.org > send-pr & set Category: www > & Send diffs to commit to cvs/www to the above. >=20 > Much noise on advocacy@ concerns presentation style of > http://www.freebsd.org, so has as much impact as farting in the > wind, as http://www.freebsd.org defines content as done by those > behind the 3 URLs above, Not done by those on advocacy@ >=20 > I can't see those running http://www.freebsd.org should give a damn > what we on advocacy@ think, when so many here who _claim_ to be web > volunteers with plans to change stuff, are so ill disciplined, they > don't even comply with URLs provided to co-ordinate web maintenance. >=20 > Useful Non Back Seat Driver Work Advocacy@ Could Do Instead: >=20 > Form small teams to create (Not talk about) & maintain a single > page printable double sided (letter And A4) 2 fold 3 column > leaflet titled: "Why FreeBSD, Not Linux ?" similar to eg BSD > leaflet (eg http://berklix.org/bim/leaflet/). Take that Makefile > + Tex structure as a start if you want. Multi lingual too later ? >=20 > Create (not talk about) And maintain a FreeBSD `slide show / > presentation (eg ports/misc/magicpoint format, usable on any cheap > laptop to hand, (not just high end open office / starwriter capable > laptops)' For use with office projectors (beamers). >=20 > Both for use in short notice, no time to prepare, quick download, > print, & convince type scenarios, to management & chambers of > commerce & installathons etc. Whenever such opportunities arise, > there rarely seems time to prepare for it, so we should have something > permanently ready to download. >=20 > If there are volunteers who want to work on those, I can provide > (on http://berklix.org servers) extra mail lists, + web(*) space & > logins, a CVS facility too later if needed. (*) I'm Not offering > to support web page rehashing of http://www.freebsd.org, just to > support leaflet & `slide show' production & maintenance). >=20 > Encourage noisey back seat web drivers to divert to the 3 URLs above. > Lets be quieter & contribute something useful, not make irrelevant web=20 > noise. >=20 > - > Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com > Mail in Ascii (Html=3DSpam). Ihr Rauch =3D mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g > " > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 1 07:10:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B010916A41C for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:10:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from tower.berklix.org (bsd.bsn.com [194.221.32.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F9C43D49 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:10:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A6094.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.96.148]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.12.9p2/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j517AQ8o033720; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:10:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j517ALtm001124; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:10:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j517ALEm002505; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:10:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200506010710.j517ALEm002505@fire.jhs.private> To: John Jawed In-Reply-To: Message from John Jawed of "Tue, 31 May 2005 15:12:26 PDT." Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:10:21 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Advocacy projects need manpower. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:10:30 -0000 John Jawed wrote: > I'm sorry, I know I was one of the ones guilty of the site layout concerns > on advocacy. You (or possibly others) raised concerns about this, and I have > since moved all of my related subject(s) to freebsd-www. Thanks John, Wishing you (& others who move www subjects there) success. - Julian Stacey Net & Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Mail in Ascii (Html=Spam). Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 1 09:55:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3235516A41C for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:55:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50DE43D1F for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:55:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fteg@london.com) Received: from unknown (unknown [192.168.9.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 508C818001BC for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:55:02 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.49) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 1 Jun 2005 09:55:02 -0000 Received: by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3D5904BEAD; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:55:02 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME::Lite 2.117 (F2.6; A1.17; B2.12; Q2.03) Received: from [213.187.181.70] by ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for fteg@london.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:55:02 -0500 X-Mailer: mail.com webmail From: "Fafa Hafiz Krantz" To: "Remko Lodder" Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 04:55:02 -0500 X-Originating-Ip: 213.187.181.70 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20050601095502.3D5904BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [30-05-05] Layout update X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:55:03 -0000 > So far i have only seen complaints from you and no actual contribution > to the discussion and ideas. If you want to talk along, please consider > thinking what can be done and what looks great instead of just > complaining. So far? You seem very impatient. The day I show you how my passion for FreeBSD looks, you'll be amazed. Whether you believe or doubt that, drop your claim. > We need a simple site that does what it needs to do; we do not have to > be a big player for that. Please keep your head on your shoulders; it's > currently flying away from you. We need a new site. FreeBSD is a big player. FreeBSD is the world's most respected Open Source operating system. Why are you trying to act smart? By stomping on my head? > Life isn't about winning competition's. The contributors to FreeBSD > think it's just a way of life to help eachother instead of winning etc. > Other operating systems might have that opinion but i personally think > we are just a happy camp of users who are willing to create a great > product. So my advise would actually be ; bring your ideas so we can > think with all of us (with usefull feedback instead of rants!) how we > want to have the new freebsd site. All I'm saying is that there's currently a logo competition. There should also be a website competition. -- Fafa Hafiz Krantz Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no Composer @ http://www.zoukclub.com.my --=20 ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 16:17:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7847416A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:17:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) Received: from mailgate3.dslextreme.com (mailgate3.dslextreme.com [66.51.199.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E4E43D54 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:17:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) Received: from mail5.dslextreme.com (unknown [192.168.7.93]) by mailgate3.dslextreme.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A81C064301 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18369 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2005 16:17:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dslextreme.com) (66.159.199.206) by mail5.dslextreme.com with (EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted) SMTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:17:09 -0700 Received: from Osgiliath.home.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dslextreme.com (8.13.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52GH9gY020309 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) Received: from localhost (nwestfal@localhost) by Osgiliath.home.lan (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id j52GH8Nv020306 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) X-Authentication-Warning: Osgiliath.home.lan: nwestfal owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Neal E. Westfall" X-X-Sender: nwestfal@Osgiliath.home.lan To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DSLExtreme-MailGate-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-DSLExtreme-MailGate: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: nwestfal@dslextreme.com Subject: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:17:37 -0000 Anybody have any thoughts on this review? http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 16:20:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0929B16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:20:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F8E43D55 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:19:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CABE3D48; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 08:18:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: "Neal E. Westfall" Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:19:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:20:00 -0000 On 2 Jun 2005 at 9:17, Neal E. Westfall wrote: > Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > > http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 I suggest you provide your thoughts first. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 16:35:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6327A16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:35:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@essenz.com) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [146.145.66.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123D843D1F for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:35:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from john@essenz.com) Received: from beck.quonix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beck.quonix.net (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j52GZIGO005273 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (essenz@localhost) by beck.quonix.net (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) with ESMTP id j52GZIrG005270 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: beck.quonix.net: essenz owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: John Von Essen X-X-Sender: essenz@beck.quonix.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> Message-ID: <20050602123010.N4511@beck.quonix.net> References: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-SpamAssassin-3.0.3-Score: -2.82/5.8 ALL_TRUSTED X-MimeDefang-2.51: beck.quonix.net X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.51 on 146.145.66.90 Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:35:22 -0000 >From bottom of page: Market: Low-end Web and Email servers, ... What the hell is that supposed to mean? Me personally, I have no sympathy for people who struggle to get FreeBSD to perform on bleeding edge hardware (new fancy SATA controllers, weird next generation AMD motherboards) >From a server environment, Intel platform (P4 and Xeon) with SCSI (RAID and non-RAID), you'll never experience this kind of trouble. -john On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Neal E. Westfall wrote: > Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > > http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:19:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60B816A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:19:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jbaltz@gmail.com) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.195]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645C343D49 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:19:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jbaltz@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so595616nzk for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:19:52 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VLdhRHMvY+89z9RTgasv5jMdOGPYwdWEjyX5SkMfjyVitqwvdLBehdHFIB8XC+flnuINDamZ0qEoAQBUIKORU0AD5lZS0W+OgevDq9O1QvF/db5NtIkbYowLhjCG9iMca4wV29qtK3La8Gdfu6fBG+VcRNw+R1ozeb7L4xNHaMY= Received: by 10.36.41.18 with SMTP id o18mr504628nzo; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.100.6 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2b677bda0506021019140e7bee@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:19:51 -0400 From: "Jerry B. Altzman" To: John Von Essen In-Reply-To: <20050602123010.N4511@beck.quonix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <20050602123010.N4511@beck.quonix.net> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Jerry B. Altzman" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:19:54 -0000 On 6/2/05, John Von Essen wrote: > Me personally, I have no sympathy for people who struggle to get FreeBSD > to perform on bleeding edge hardware (new fancy SATA controllers, weird > next generation AMD motherboards) RIght...for those who like to be on the forefront of technology, we have Windows and Linux (and Solaris for AMD). No one in their right mind would like to push the edge, or try going a bit with more bang-for-the-buck and want to use FreeBSD. :-P > -john //jbaltz --=20 jerry b. altzman jbaltz@gmail.com foo mane padme hum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:21:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4ED116A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:21:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75EBC43D48 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:21:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davidjohnson@siemens.com) Received: from mvwcim1a.acuson.com ([157.226.95.42]:2547 helo=mvwcim1a.ww005.siemens.net) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1DdtNi-0005TU-3d; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:21:22 -0700 Received: by mvwcim1a.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E080C@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> From: Johnson David To: "'Neal E. Westfall'" , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:21:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: RE: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:21:24 -0000 From: Neal E. Westfall [mailto:nwestfal@dslextreme.com] > > Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > > http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 I have some contrary thoughts. The first thought is "geez, here's another review from a Linux site slamming a non-Linux operating system". The very first thing he says is that FreebSD 5.x still isn't ready for primetime. I see this over and over again in every FreeBSD review from a Linux user. Am I the only one who has never had any problems with the 5.x branch? Many of his problems were more his own fault. Like his bitching that the mini ISO didn't have his Realtek driver but the full ISO did. Then use the full ISO! Duh! My other thought is the opposite. We really do have a problem in that we are unable to support every possible weird ass piece of hardware out there. But it's a problem we cannot fix. We just don't have the manpower or resources to do it. I do sympathize with the reviewer in that his very expensive bleeding edge workstation won't run FreeBSD in the precise configuration he wants. I know what he feels, because I have similar issues with Linux. For two years I tried to get Linux installed on my home system with SATA drives. The reason I couldn't was that no distro built in SATA support to their install CDs or floppies. But in the end I keep coming back to a third thought: I would really really like to see, once in my life, a review of FreeBSD that reflects my own experiences with it. I would like to see a review that's something more than a laundry list of bugs. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:24:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EB916A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:24:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jbaltz@gmail.com) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA1B43D48 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:24:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jbaltz@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 40so598273nzk for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:24:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=G7+CgGCwnXq06P549gY8pqy9RLRPtmuDK7rN1wGl5K9/kzV+YBbsBhT9+RADj46l94KAZ+rsPCsj4FQVSUcfTfHJ42fkPuAHlfjlKCmsD/C1I9ws/bXyx4q5KXOBxIW1J7QKkUv3r87qYpvpSFuhJk09PI/5swLfUGAQoG5urj0= Received: by 10.36.224.19 with SMTP id w19mr516713nzg; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.100.6 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2b677bda05060210244f01165d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:24:35 -0400 From: "Jerry B. Altzman" To: Dan Langille In-Reply-To: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Jerry B. Altzman" List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:24:37 -0000 On 6/2/05, Dan Langille wrote: > On 2 Jun 2005 at 9:17, Neal E. Westfall wrote: > > Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > > http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=3D05/05/24/2153257&tid=3D8 > I suggest you provide your thoughts first. OK, I think a lot of the points he brings up are valid ones. (I have not yet tried to get FBSD 5.4 up yet, I've been tied up with other things.) I think his offhand comment on the Giant Lock shows some lack of depth; it is a major undertaking, and really fundamentally (IMHO) important. I think the comment about "low-end and desktop" was ... well, something of a gratuitous swipe... > Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ //jbaltz --=20 jerry b. altzman jbaltz@gmail.com foo mane padme hum From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:31:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE6716A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:31:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0DE3543D1D for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:31:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 17838 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2005 17:31:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 2 Jun 2005 17:31:04 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050602173103.FRSG1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 01:31:03 +0800 Message-ID: <429F4244.2040207@pacific.net.sg> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:30:44 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Neal E. Westfall" References: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> In-Reply-To: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:31:07 -0000 Hi, I do not think that this guy is that wrong. It was not the best move to declare 5.3 usable for production. Not even 5.4. It is not a single major problem in there, it is the number of little, little problems which can run people crazy who have to keep a web- or any other server up and running. Even upgrading to 5.4 was not 100% perfect for me. 99,9% is not enough if a company waits behind your back to start work. Do not get me wrong. I think the problems with FreeBSD 5.x are real minor things, only the label 'production' is what bothers. One more round with 4.11 as production and at least 5.3 with some other sticker would have been better for FreeBSD's reputation. It is not the technical guys who decide finally which operating system is used in a company. But those guys take this kind of articles as a base for a 'no' to the usage of FreeBSD. Erich Neal E. Westfall wrote: > Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > > http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:31:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8408016A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:31:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@offmyserver.com) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5003A43D1D for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:31:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from matt@offmyserver.com) Received: from [192.168.1.155] (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.10/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j52H9Kgs089498; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@offmyserver.com) In-Reply-To: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E080C@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> References: <6F2F8FD3FBCF7A489CB18912A4807EBA0E080C@mvwcim1a.acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2831016F-EC9D-45C7-A19B-837A7EB0B9FB@offmyserver.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Matt Olander Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:31:36 -0700 To: Johnson David X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:31:40 -0000 On Jun 2, 2005, at 10:21 AM, Johnson David wrote: > From: Neal E. Westfall [mailto:nwestfal@dslextreme.com] > >> >> Anybody have any thoughts on this review? >> >> http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 > > But in the end I keep coming back to a third thought: I would > really really > like to see, once in my life, a review of FreeBSD that reflects my own > experiences with it. I would like to see a review that's something > more than > a laundry list of bugs. I just asked our Production Manager, Austin, to write a brief FreeBSD 5.4 review from the perspective of a systems integrator and manufacturer. Frequently, we see FreeBSD supporting server hardware that has trouble running CentOS, RedHat Enterprise, etc. Give him a few days and we'll submit this to BSDNews, DaemonNews, etc. -matt ---- Matt Olander Chief Technology Officer, OffMyServer, Inc. Public Relations, The FreeBSD Project (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com www.freebsd.org ---- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:36:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A8116A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:36:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6EF43D48 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:36:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1Ddtc6-000817-00; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:36:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:36:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <429F4244.2040207@pacific.net.sg> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:36:22 -0000 On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Erich Dollansky wrote: > It was not the best move to declare 5.3 usable for production. Not even 5.4. I help maintain various FreeBSD 5.x boxes for now over two years in various locations used in essential production environments. I teach FreeBSD classes in various locations, and so I have also had the great opportunity to assist with installing FreeBSD 5.x on probably over 50 different computer systems -- a wide variety of different hardware. FreeBSD 5.x has installed well and performed well for me going back to January 2003. Jeremy C. Reed open source, Unix, *BSD, Linux training http://www.pugetsoundtechnology.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:48:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAFE16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:48:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) Received: from mailgate1.dslextreme.com (mailgate1.dslextreme.com [66.51.199.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6A943D55 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:48:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) Received: from mail5.dslextreme.com (unknown [192.168.7.93]) by mailgate1.dslextreme.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C99C6303DC for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22960 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2005 17:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dslextreme.com) (66.159.199.206) by mail5.dslextreme.com with (EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted) SMTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:47:58 -0700 Received: from Osgiliath.home.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dslextreme.com (8.13.3/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52HlwgO020563; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) Received: from localhost (nwestfal@localhost) by Osgiliath.home.lan (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) with ESMTP id j52Hlwga020560; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nwestfal@dslextreme.com) X-Authentication-Warning: Osgiliath.home.lan: nwestfal owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:47:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Neal E. Westfall" X-X-Sender: nwestfal@Osgiliath.home.lan To: Dan Langille In-Reply-To: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> Message-ID: <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-DSLExtreme-MailGate-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-DSLExtreme-MailGate: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: nwestfal@dslextreme.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:48:03 -0000 >> Anybody have any thoughts on this review? >> >> http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 > > I suggest you provide your thoughts first. Well, as I run FreeBSD on older 32-bit hardware, I have not seen some of the problems the author mentions, so my thoughts on the article will be somewhat limited. The impression the author gives is that the 4.X branch was more stable, but it doesn't appear that the author has actually used the 4.X branch. It probably isn't really a fair comparison anyway, as the 4.X branch doesn't support the hardware he was trying to use. I would have liked to see how a major linux distribution or two would have fared on the same hardware. I don't think that the reviewer really did extensive enough testing to be able to render a fair review, as he was using some pretty bleading edge hardware, and it is not clear from the review whether linux would have fared much better. Then again, as a FreeBSD user myself for a good 15 years or so, I am probably a little biased towards FreeBSD. Maybe linux is rock-solid on a 64-bit platform. It appears to be pretty stable at my jobsite, where we run 64-bit Linux on two Altix servers, but they do freeze up every once in a while, maybe once every 2-3 months, requiring a hardware reset. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 17:52:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BADE16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:52:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from ajax.achean.com (ajax.achean.com [212.87.82.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA31143D1F for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:52:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from ajax.achean.com (ajax.achean.com [212.87.82.16]) by ajax.achean.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52Hq3b6036120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:52:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: (from www@localhost) by ajax.achean.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j52Hq2Ro036119; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:52:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) X-Authentication-Warning: ajax.achean.com: www set sender to jon.mercer@achean.com using -f Received: from 217.33.199.34 (SquirrelMail authenticated user jon.mercer) by webmail.achean.com with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:52:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> In-Reply-To: <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:52:02 +0100 (BST) From: "Jon Mercer" To: "Neal E. Westfall" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=RM_KNOWN_WEBMAIL autolearn=failed version=3.0.3-achean_mailfilter_v1.00 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3-achean_mailfilter_v1.00 (2005-04-27) on ajax.achean.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:52:07 -0000 On Thu, June 2, 2005 18:47, Neal E. Westfall said: >>> Anybody have any thoughts on this review? >>> >>> http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 >> >> I suggest you provide your thoughts first. > > Well, as I run FreeBSD on older 32-bit hardware, I have not seen some of > the problems the author mentions, so my thoughts on the article will be > somewhat limited. The impression the author gives is that the 4.X branch > was more stable, but it doesn't appear that the author has actually used > the 4.X branch. It probably isn't really a fair comparison anyway, as the > 4.X branch doesn't support the hardware he was trying to use. > > I would have liked to see how a major linux distribution or two would have > fared on the same hardware. I don't think that the reviewer really did > extensive enough testing to be able to render a fair review, as he was > using some pretty bleading edge hardware, and it is not clear from the > review whether linux would have fared much better. > > Then again, as a FreeBSD user myself for a good 15 years or so, I am > probably a little biased towards FreeBSD. Maybe linux is rock-solid on a > 64-bit platform. It appears to be pretty stable at my jobsite, where we > run 64-bit Linux on two Altix servers, but they do freeze up every once in > a while, maybe once every 2-3 months, requiring a hardware reset. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > The same reviewer did a review of OpenBSD a couple of articles previously: http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/05/20/1426216.shtml?tid=8 On the whole his experience looked worse than with FreeBSD, but the tone of the OBSD article was more favorable. Anyone else notice this? Jem Matzan just seems to be anti-FreeBSD. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Achean Ltd http://www.achean.com Jon Mercer jon.mercer@achean.com Director ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 18:01:58 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5FB16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:01:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutvdomng.kundenserver.de (moutvdom.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB99543D49 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:01:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [212.227.126.224] (helo=mrvdomng.kundenserver.de) by moutvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ddu0s-0006ae-00; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:01:50 +0200 Received: from host217-43-131-131.range217-43.btcentralplus.com ([217.43.131.131] helo=localhost) by mrvdomng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Ddu0s-0002yb-00; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:01:50 +0200 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:01:48 +0100 From: "Liam J. Foy" To: Jon Mercer Message-ID: <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:01:58 -0000 > The same reviewer did a review of OpenBSD a couple of articles previously: > > http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/05/20/1426216.shtml?tid=8 > > On the whole his experience looked worse than with FreeBSD, but the tone > of the OBSD article was more favorable. Anyone else notice this? > > Jem Matzan just seems to be anti-FreeBSD. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Achean Ltd http://www.achean.com > Jon Mercer jon.mercer@achean.com Director > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Jem Matzan is known for poor reviews throughout *BSD. -- - Liam J. Foy liamfoy@sepulcrum.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 18:11:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FFD16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:11:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmitry.mityugov@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F3E43D4C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:11:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dmitry.mityugov@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so422854wri for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:11:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=b7S70DBUX+IMYIqFfEfCLVDyplX8t97Jy7kNYa0WcOlluAPtd1b4nOq6pqYkdmH0nuv49xFOmTzLLZsINyK6MqpQgtIclgCN0ppAdv9xAEaFNOd7fEvPwMnRDI7DEz1RQpzsPaprU97HYppSd/ZQlrQBwh/z2xyF3rYTXhslj3E= Received: by 10.54.146.16 with SMTP id t16mr702933wrd; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.56.33 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 22:10:47 +0400 From: Dmitry Mityugov To: "Neal E. Westfall" In-Reply-To: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050602091600.Q20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dmitry Mityugov List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:11:47 -0000 On 6/2/05, Neal E. Westfall wrote: > Anybody have any thoughts on this review? >=20 > http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=3D05/05/24/2153257&tid=3D8 All in all, FreeBSD 5.4 works better for me than 5.3, it brought several good things to me like better SysKonnect support (and without breaking anything that already worked!), so I know from my experience (nearly the only thing I trust) this article is not quite right. --=20 Dmitry "We live less by imagination than despite it" - Rockwell Kent, "N by E" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 18:29:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E185C16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:29:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from ajax.achean.com (ajax.achean.com [212.87.82.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A2543D1F for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:29:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from odysseus.office.achean.com (dsl-217-155-191-89.zen.co.uk [217.155.191.89]) by ajax.achean.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52ISnno036190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:28:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odysseus.office.achean.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52ISkr8000826; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:28:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) From: Jon Mercer To: "Liam J. Foy" In-Reply-To: <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 19:28:46 +0100 Message-Id: <1117736926.772.3.camel@odysseus.office.achean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO,MY_DSL autolearn=no version=3.0.3-achean_mailfilter_v1.00 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3-achean_mailfilter_v1.00 (2005-04-27) on ajax.achean.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 18:29:03 -0000 On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 19:01 +0100, Liam J. Foy wrote: > > The same reviewer did a review of OpenBSD a couple of articles previously: > > > > http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/05/20/1426216.shtml?tid=8 > > > > On the whole his experience looked worse than with FreeBSD, but the tone > > of the OBSD article was more favorable. Anyone else notice this? > > > > Jem Matzan just seems to be anti-FreeBSD. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Achean Ltd http://www.achean.com > > Jon Mercer jon.mercer@achean.com Director > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Jem Matzan is known for poor reviews throughout *BSD. > Ah yes, thejemreport.com, not egotistical at all... Hang on, isn't his 5.4 review nothing more than a slight rewording of the 5.3 review??? This could turn out as character assassination as well as OS assassination. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Achean Ltd http://www.achean.com Jon Mercer jon.mercer@achean.com Director ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 2 21:56:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E73E16A41C for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:56:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from samy@kerneled.org) Received: from perseus.interservers.com (perseus.interservers.com [65.202.242.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BADE43D53 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 21:56:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from samy@kerneled.org) Received: from [212.76.82.129] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by perseus.interservers.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1DdxfZ-0000Yz-Qu; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:56:06 -0400 From: Samy Al Bahra To: "Neal E. Westfall" In-Reply-To: <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Kerneled.org Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:56:02 +0300 Message-Id: <1117749362.90128.2.camel@jee.workstation.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.0 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - perseus.interservers.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - kerneled.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:56:06 -0000 On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:47 -0700, Neal E. Westfall wrote: > >> Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > >> > >> http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/2153257&tid=8 > > > > I suggest you provide your thoughts first. With all due respect to the author, I see many biases (and sufficient ignorance). From his note that ULE is the "official scheduler" and that "FreeBSD 5.4 lacks any major changes". -- Samy Al Bahra |------- http://samy.kerneled.org |------- http://www.FreeBSD.org '------- http://www.arabeyes.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 3 00:19:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF89A16A41C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:19:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DD943D1F for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 00:19:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so130024wra for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:18:59 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=X03cE/b8p7xQe3UWXvVon37dHp70Jm9+hnyQnvcG9QtrLdOa11hEAHH7amGl09MjBdFF9HSc8rOgQ+4u0WFj+qOW5dKi5CO3o0h8bRO8LLxKOjY8Uc2z34zIjjrZUW60iep0wMEVqaQRC25S7W+uUSH9EeMiS3Kd17zy7HbPiAM= Received: by 10.54.13.66 with SMTP id 66mr770735wrm; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.66 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fd864e05060217186c268af3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:18:00 -0700 From: Astrodog To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1117749362.90128.2.camel@jee.workstation.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <1117749362.90128.2.camel@jee.workstation.local> Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 00:19:00 -0000 On 6/2/05, Samy Al Bahra wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-02 at 10:47 -0700, Neal E. Westfall wrote: > > >> Anybody have any thoughts on this review? > > >> > > >> http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=3D05/05/24/2153257&tid=3D8 Quite frankly, the article is actually factually incorrect on a number of p= oints #1. Linux x86-64 Binarys are NOT supported on FreeBSD/amd64; Linux i386 binaries are. #2. SMP Support is not required to boot an Opteron machine. Without SMP support, it would simply use only one processor. Because no detail was provided, as to the Opteron machine he used, its impossible to tell if this is an ongoing issue, or one that is resolved by the hints documented on the mailing lists. #3. The Author claims ULE is "Stable", implying somehow that its ready for production. I'm not sure I've even seen that claim on -CURRENT. ULE is a great thing, but somehow saying 5.4 is not ready for production, but ULE is, is simply ridiculous. There's also no real testing done, to provide a somewhat empirical idea of how well FreeBSD 5.4 works, merely a personal experence "I had to re-plug-in my keyboard" type thing. No claim is made whatsoever as to how FreeBSD runs, after the installation. Perhaps this review was simply covering the FreeBSD 5.4 install process? As an aside to the author, the fact that FreeBSD has problems with Realtek GigE NICs, and Sil SATA controllers isn't very suprising. Last time I checked, the rl driver source said something along the lines of, "These are the worst NICs in the world", and the issues with Sil controllers are well known. If you don't check the mailing lists, and do a little bit of work, it should be no suprise that some random cheap hardware you throw at it may not work as you expect it to. I am not aware of any major server provider, using Sil SATA controllers, and Realtek NICs in their machines. Tyan uses Broadcom, and they're pretty much the main OEM vendor of AMD Server kit. By testing with the hardware that the author chose to use, he provided a review of the FreeBSD installation process on mid-range workstations, and low-end Dual Opteron boards. That being said, even on crappy hardware, I've never found any real showstopping issues, beyond the R3000Z thing, which is fixed in 5.4. If someone isn't willing to really test an Operating System, with benchmarks, a wide array of hardware, and software, they shouldn't be writing a review of it, that simply claims its not ready for production. --- Harrison Grundy (CC'd to article author) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 3 13:12:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D06F16A41C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:12:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F1543D1F for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:12:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.20]) by mail-in-08.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A620541E67 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:12:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-08-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D0A3645D for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:12:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-084-056-244-102.arcor-ip.net [84.56.244.102]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F97510B47 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:12:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.13.3/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53DCnIS081390 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:12:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j53DCnw9081389 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:12:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:12:48 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:12:53 -0000 Liam J. Foy wrote: > Jem Matzan is known for poor reviews throughout *BSD. Is there anybody known for good reviews? It turns out that writing reviews that meet the expectation of expert readers is incredibly difficult. In fact, I suggest that some of the people who keep lambasting reviews try writing some themselves. For bonus, about an operating system you're only semi-familiar with. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 3 13:14:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F9B16A41C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:14:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (mail-in-06.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91F7743D1F for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:14:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mailnull@mips.inka.de) Received: from mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.16]) by mail-in-01.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFE21F97B for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:14:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (mail-in-02.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.42]) by mail-in-04-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF2210D4A7 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:14:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (dsl-084-056-244-102.arcor-ip.net [84.56.244.102]) by mail-in-02.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FC710B4B for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:14:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.13.3/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j53DELiK081572 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:14:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@kemoauc.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j53DELa2081571 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:14:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 13:14:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <1117749362.90128.2.camel@jee.workstation.local> <2fd864e05060217186c268af3@mail.gmail.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:14:24 -0000 Astrodog wrote: > As an aside to the author, the fact that FreeBSD has problems with > Realtek GigE NICs, and Sil SATA controllers isn't very suprising. Last > time I checked, the rl driver source said something along the lines > of, "These are the worst NICs in the world", The reviewer had an re(4) card, not an rl(4). Very different beast. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 3 15:54:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC8416A41C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:54:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DBC43D1F for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 15:54:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from astrodog@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so331345wra for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:54:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WaP9lOnRp8wWRiREWmYQrUCogrgwi4yQ3p9FSWUHrQNvu4JF/iEvZzKGEHeY3qwjG2YxBbYMuhD5/nDfIJQWaCZleLtcL8WwPZ9UIzX/FofX2e96u6pi3GMo+GnjVCLvlaQ34p/K8pS+dOzCrq2Vr7TOEvSfliR2xStuLcfKijw= Received: by 10.54.67.8 with SMTP id p8mr1197600wra; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 08:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.66 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fd864e05060308544bc66225@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 08:54:05 -0700 From: Astrodog To: Christian Weisgerber In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Astrodog List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:54:08 -0000 On 6/3/05, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Liam J. Foy wrote: >=20 > > Jem Matzan is known for poor reviews throughout *BSD. >=20 > Is there anybody known for good reviews? >=20 > It turns out that writing reviews that meet the expectation of > expert readers is incredibly difficult. In fact, I suggest that > some of the people who keep lambasting reviews try writing some > themselves. For bonus, about an operating system you're only > semi-familiar with. >=20 If you aren't familier enough with something to evaluate it, you shouldn't review it. Just as I wouldn't write a review of Mac OSX at the moment, simply because I have little to no experence using it. Nor would I write one about Kylin BSD, since as far as I can tell, if its released, its been released in Chinese first. If someone is only semi-familiar with something, as part of their review, they need to spend the time to become familier. I've done plenty of evaluations of software for customers of mine, and I certainly don't just go through the install process, say "This sucks" and move on to the next product. I'm aware writing a review is incredibly difficult, however, I would suggest that one simply not write a review, if they are unwilling, or unable to meet the standard required by the technical audience their review is targeted at. --- Harrison Grundy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 3 16:14:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A4B16A41C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:14:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB28943D4C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 16:14:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1DeEof-0000vN-00; Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:14:37 -0700 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:14:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:14:42 -0000 On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > It turns out that writing reviews that meet the expectation of > expert readers is incredibly difficult. In fact, I suggest that > some of the people who keep lambasting reviews try writing some > themselves. For bonus, about an operating system you're only > semi-familiar with. When writing a review, make a list of topics, features and tasks ahead of time that you want to check and document that. The review should be clear to explain what the initial goals were. I have written several reviews. And I have received negative and abusive feedback also. There's always someone who can find fault even if you try to do an honest, thorough and good job. Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 3 21:40:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17B516A41C for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:40:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 07E5743D48 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2005 21:40:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 16482 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2005 21:40:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 3 Jun 2005 21:40:40 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050603214040.QJRZ1130.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 05:40:40 +0800 Message-ID: <42A0CE4E.3010003@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 05:40:30 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Astrodog References: <429EF96E.16172.33600ABA@localhost> <20050602100934.Y20286@Osgiliath.home.lan> <60053.217.33.199.34.1117734722.squirrel@webmail.achean.com> <20050602180147.GA790@anarion> <2fd864e05060308544bc66225@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2fd864e05060308544bc66225@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Christian Weisgerber Subject: Re: Negative Review of FreeBSD 5.4 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:40:43 -0000 Hi, Astrodog wrote: > On 6/3/05, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > >>Liam J. Foy wrote: >> >>>Jem Matzan is known for poor reviews throughout *BSD. >> >>Is there anybody known for good reviews? >> > If you aren't familier enough with something to evaluate it, you > shouldn't review it. Just as I wouldn't write a review of Mac OSX at Yes, but 99% of all reviews are written by people who do not care to have a clue. Aren't most review written by people who's main skill is writing and not the the skill needed to do the review? Erich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 4 09:19:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080B616A41C for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:19:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: from smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (smtprelay01.ispgateway.de [80.67.18.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4971C43D4C for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:19:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-listen@fabiankeil.de) Received: (qmail 25513 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2005 09:19:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) ([pbs]775067@[83.129.14.47]) (envelope-sender ) by smtprelay01.ispgateway.de (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Jun 2005 09:19:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 11:18:40 +0200 From: Fabian Keil To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050604111840.762bf2a5@localhost> In-Reply-To: <0c19a828b89deb289d6977f01a24b86c@czv.com> References: <20050528165128.DEB8B1F50B1@ws1-2.us4.outblaze.com> <20050528225538.GD19079@gothmog.gr> <20050529162546.21d97df4@localhost> <0c19a828b89deb289d6977f01a24b86c@czv.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.0.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Signature_Sat__4_Jun_2005_11_18_40_+0200_dXQu4WRPe7st.5ej; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chris@czv.com Subject: Re: Main site makeover X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:19:29 -0000 --Signature_Sat__4_Jun_2005_11_18_40_+0200_dXQu4WRPe7st.5ej Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > On May 29, 2005, at 4:25 PM, Fabian Keil wrote: >=20 > > Chris Zumbrunn wrote: > > > >> Yes, that was exactly the idea. There is a version committed in > >> Perforce that took that approach and looks like this: > >> > >> http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb1h.html > >> http://czv.com/zones/beastie/freebsd/freebsdweb2h.html > > > > Looks good. Was there already a discussion if the links > > should stay underlined or not? IMHO they should. >=20 > Yes, Ceri Davies took a very strong stand in favor of keeping the=20 > underlines: >=20 > On Jan 12, 2005, at 8:52 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: >=20 > > In short: I will not commit, and will request a backout of, any patch > > that turns off underlined links on the website. I may not stop short=20 > > of > > backing it out myself either, and with that said I'll try not to reply > > to this thread any more, for the sake of everyone's sanity. >=20 > That thread is in the freebsd-www archive... >=20 > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-www/2005-January/001934.html Thanks for pointing me to the right direction, Chris and Giorgos. Looks like another list I have to subscribe to. Fabian --=20 http://www.fabiankeil.de/ --Signature_Sat__4_Jun_2005_11_18_40_+0200_dXQu4WRPe7st.5ej Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCoXH7bmGO+3DrZ9sRAlQiAJ90rEsshZ7gj6j33hJPUFlCAbXhgwCgiYS2 kPaP/N3eVv9ZI3P1xs5sHvQ= =AaNP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature_Sat__4_Jun_2005_11_18_40_+0200_dXQu4WRPe7st.5ej-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 4 23:07:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC5C16A41C for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:07:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A288F43D48 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:07:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F295060D8 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:07:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23294-04 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:07:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B2360D4 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:07:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:07:20 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD - Advocacy X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Subject: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:07:27 -0000 This may or may not fit within the rhelm of Advo - but allow me to extend to the folks of the list that at least on DALNet, there is #FreeBSD and #FreeBSDHelp there to lend help to users and promote the ideas of the OS. Of course for our folks that are into OpenBSD and NetBSD, there are channels there too. I'm hoping to have the FBSD website turn around what it has when it come to FreeBSD on IRC. Feel free to hop on by and sit a spell. If this in no way pertains to Advo - I apologize now for taking up bandwidth. -- Best regards, Chris Democracy is that form of government where everybody gets what the majority deserves. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 4 23:44:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3461B16A41C for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:44:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC75543D49 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:44:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from pfak@telus.net) Received: from [192.168.1.151] (really [64.180.103.26]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.04 201-2131-118-104-20050224) with ESMTP id <20050604234456.YSGZ20523.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@[192.168.1.151]>; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 17:44:56 -0600 Message-ID: <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 16:44:58 -0700 From: Peter Kieser User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: racerx@makeworld.com References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> In-Reply-To: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:44:57 -0000 Hello, #freebsd on DALnet is a HELP channel? Last I checked if you ask a question in there you get your head flamed off. Probably better to advocate one of the friendlier IRC help channels (#freebsd on irc.freenode.net) --Peter Chris wrote: >This may or may not fit within the rhelm of Advo - but allow me to >extend to the folks of the list that at least on DALNet, there is >#FreeBSD and #FreeBSDHelp there to lend help to users and promote the >ideas of the OS. > >Of course for our folks that are into OpenBSD and NetBSD, there are >channels there too. > >I'm hoping to have the FBSD website turn around what it has when it come >to FreeBSD on IRC. > >Feel free to hop on by and sit a spell. > >If this in no way pertains to Advo - I apologize now for taking up >bandwidth. > > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 4 23:56:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4412216A41C for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:56:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from makeworld.com (makeworld.com [216.201.118.142]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D3243D1D for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:56:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from racerx@makeworld.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.com [127.0.0.1]) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CE460D8; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:56:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from makeworld.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (makeworld.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23452-09; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:56:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.201.118.138] (racerx.makeworld.com [216.201.118.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by makeworld.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A9160D4; Sat, 4 Jun 2005 18:56:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A23FBF.8080803@makeworld.com> Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:56:47 -0500 From: Chris User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050414) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Kieser References: <42A23428.7080908@makeworld.com> <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> In-Reply-To: <42A23CFA.4030502@telus.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by ClamAV 0.75.1/amavisd-new-2.3.1 (20050509) at makeworld.com - Isn't it ironic Cc: FreeBSD - Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD on IRC X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: racerx@makeworld.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:56:51 -0000 Peter Kieser wrote: > Hello, > > #freebsd on DALnet is a HELP channel? Last I checked if you ask a > question in there you get your head flamed off. > > Probably better to advocate one of the friendlier IRC help channels > (#freebsd on irc.freenode.net) > > --Peter > > Chris wrote: > >> This may or may not fit within the rhelm of Advo - but allow me to >> extend to the folks of the list that at least on DALNet, there is >> #FreeBSD and #FreeBSDHelp there to lend help to users and promote the >> ideas of the OS. >> >> Of course for our folks that are into OpenBSD and NetBSD, there are >> channels there too. >> >> I'm hoping to have the FBSD website turn around what it has when it come >> to FreeBSD on IRC. >> >> Feel free to hop on by and sit a spell. >> >> If this in no way pertains to Advo - I apologize now for taking up >> bandwidth. >> >> >> >> > > > While it's true anyone can flame anybody - we in the channel do have some easy things to follow before asking. In the topic it refers to seeking the Handbook, /usr/ports/updating & /usr/src/updating. Many users after reading such topics generally find that it's not much to ask that they do a few things on ones own. I have been in that channel for over a year, and while it's certainly try that does and can happen - it's generally warranted. Just my point of view. And as I mentioned, we ARE working to correct the image that is mentioned on the FBSD site. So please - don't presumably shut it down when you may not have been there in some time. -- Best regards, Chris When the government bureau's remedies do not match your problem, you modify the problem, not the remedy.