From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 28 02:05:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040E116A41F for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 02:05:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-advocacy@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4FC43D45 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 02:05:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-advocacy@m.gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EgYNy-0002uG-MC for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:04:54 +0100 Received: from 69-171-193-20.sbtnvt.adelphia.net ([69.171.193.20]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:04:54 +0100 Received: from scott by 69-171-193-20.sbtnvt.adelphia.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 03:04:54 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "Scott I. Remick" Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:04:22 -0500 Lines: 5 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 69-171-193-20.sbtnvt.adelphia.net User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) X-Archive: encrypt Sender: news Subject: A Linux User's perspective in installing FreeBSD 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 02:05:47 -0000 Not sure how many of you saw this: http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2005/11/linux-users-perspective-in-installing.html Figured this was the best place to post it for the sake of discussion. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 28 04:20:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD28516A41F for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 04:20:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: from xproxy.gmail.com (xproxy.gmail.com [66.249.82.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390A643D5A for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 04:20:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s9so2014914wxc for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:20:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=RgEdJtLwf0VGAOBkg3/evJQZx9vjG0I54eabMqBj0FzRVaHGISJJVZTkxqGLAuHm2z4beEmdwkpLEyHZ4xFCOI5OKLMAuyH4OB8Uhzljc8IJt5QWsse/mae2RsywgXs21ZLDkc8LT5tnKsYN93AVqqpiZ8il8CJagSb40V0rlu0= Received: by 10.70.124.4 with SMTP id w4mr148877wxc; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.105.13 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:20:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <84dead720511272020v10830ef5idcc8922363ca059@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:50:47 +0530 From: Joseph Koshy To: "Scott I. Remick" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A Linux User's perspective in installing FreeBSD 6.0 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 04:20:48 -0000 sr> http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2005/11/linux-users-perspective-in-instal= ling.html It appears to be a well written review, but like most reviews it seems to stops at the point the OS is installed. The comments are more interesting if somewhat misinformed; for example, FreeBSD has had MAC support since 5.0 days (the equivalent of the Selinux stuff now appearing in FC5), although not in GENERIC. -- FreeBSD Volunteer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 28 13:32:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE3416A431 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:32:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1E943D53 for ; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:31:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 2730035 for multiple; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:31:22 -0500 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jASDV6Nf057282; Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:31:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:18:45 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <59e2ee810511250557j1b4ff01dsa7e93d3c73a86121@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <59e2ee810511250557j1b4ff01dsa7e93d3c73a86121@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511280818.46625.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: Rostislav Krasny Subject: Re: i386 do not support i386 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:32:02 -0000 On Friday 25 November 2005 08:57 am, Rostislav Krasny wrote: > > FreeBSD 6.0R don't support 386 processors according to the release > > notes, maybe it's time to change the name of the i386 platform to the > > x86 platform. > > 16-bit 8086, 8088, 80186 and 80286 are x86 processors too. 80386 was > the first 32-bit processor from Intel, and it had many other > significant architectural changes. I believe the i386 architecture > name is righteous for 80386 successors, even without the 80386 > particular support. That's just my IMHO. Agreed, especially when you consider the amd64 processors which are also kn= own=20 as x86-64 and thus 'x86'. In fact, on NetBSD, they put code shared between= =20 NetBSD/i386 and NetBSD/x86-64 in sys/arch/x86, and FreeBSD may someday do t= he=20 same with a sys/x86 containing files shared between sys/i386 and sys/amd64= =20 (but don't hold your breath. :) ) =2D-=20 John Baldwin =A0<>< =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =A0=3D =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 29 17:40:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E79B16A420 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5EF43D5F for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jATHeIVW072605 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:18 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id jATHeIM2072604; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:18 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:18 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <200511291740.jATHeIM2072604@freefall.freebsd.org> Resent-From: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org (GNATS Filer) Resent-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Resent-Reply-To: FreeBSD-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org, Takeo Hashimoto Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8779216A41F for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:36:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nobody@FreeBSD.org) Received: from www.freebsd.org (www.freebsd.org [216.136.204.117]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC4643D5C for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:36:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nobody@FreeBSD.org) Received: from www.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jATHaJOS079069 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:36:19 GMT (envelope-from nobody@www.freebsd.org) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www.freebsd.org (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id jATHaJrn079068; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:36:19 GMT (envelope-from nobody) Message-Id: <200511291736.jATHaJrn079068@www.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:36:19 GMT From: Takeo Hashimoto To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-2.3 Cc: Subject: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:21 -0000 >Number: 89731 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list >Confidential: no >Severity: serious >Priority: high >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: change-request >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Tue Nov 29 17:40:18 GMT 2005 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Takeo Hashimoto >Release: 5.4-RELEASE >Organization: >Environment: everywhere. >Description: there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. - oldie does not think about mass happiness. - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. - waste network traffic and server resource. - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" >How-To-Repeat: 1) subscribe to any jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. (for example, FreeBSD-users-jp@jp.FreeBSD.org) 2) just wait few hours. >Fix: change the ML policy to "restrict_post" >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 29 18:28:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2458616A41F; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:28:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5451343D58; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:28:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 2818094 for multiple; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jATISHY3073640; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <200511291736.jATHaJrn079068@www.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <200511291736.jATHaJrn079068@www.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511291328.32727.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org, Takeo Hashimoto Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:28:22 -0000 On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >Description: > > there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. > - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. > - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. > - oldie does not think about mass happiness. > - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. > - waste network traffic and server resource. > - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need to contact the folks there via postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org. Note also that spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Nov 29 18:30:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D761216A41F for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:30:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7744443D55 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:30:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jATIU8Tu084614 for ; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:30:08 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id jATIU81W084607; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:30:08 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:30:08 GMT Message-Id: <200511291830.jATIU81W084607@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: John Baldwin Cc: Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John Baldwin List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:30:09 -0000 The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS. From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: Takeo Hashimoto , freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >Description: > > there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. > - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. > - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. > - oldie does not think about mass happiness. > - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. > - waste network traffic and server resource. > - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need to contact the folks there via postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org. Note also that spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 03:12:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6A616A41F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:12:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from tukuda.jip.co.jp (tukuda.jip.co.jp [202.32.98.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BEFC443DA0 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:12:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 81690 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2005 03:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp) (133.227.39.8) by tukuda.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 30 Nov 2005 03:12:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 11547 invoked by uid 504); 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 Received: from emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp (133.227.39.145) by hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 To: jhb@freebsd.org, postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500". <200511291328.32727.jhb@freebsd.org> From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 Message-ID: <051130121209.M0301416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:01 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org, hashimototakeo@mac.com, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:12:39 -0000 Hi all. # Sorry from another 'from' address, # but I am the sender of advocacy/89731. On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 John Baldwin wrote: >On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> >Description: >> >> there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. >> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >> - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. >> - oldie does not think about mass happiness. >> - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. >> - waste network traffic and server resource. >> - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" > >Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. >Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of >the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need >to contact the folks there via postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org. Note also that >spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public >mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. > >-- I know that jp.FreeBSD.org is just one of sub domain of FreeBSD.org, and FreeBSD.org doesn't administer it, and FreeBSD.org doesn't have a fault about this. But spam damages FreeBSD own honor. I think that this is a whole FreeBSD problem, and I think that only FreeBSD.org can make jp.FreeBSD.org change. # so I did send-pr. Of course I know the admins of jp.freebsd.org are busy. I respect thier volunteer mind, but sorry to say, the way admin do it is arbitrary. I think transparency and democracy is necessary for a decision on will, like a core team. OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. that is a matter of ML management policy. and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, so we have to search the solution which get the biggest effect by the minimum cost. I think "restrict_post" is the answer. #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 03:20:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77B416A456 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9951743D69 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jAU3K6aa064374 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:06 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id jAU3K6Ib064373; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:06 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:06 GMT Message-Id: <200511300320.jAU3K6Ib064373@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Cc: Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Takeo Hashimoto List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:20:11 -0000 The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS. From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) To: jhb@freebsd.org, postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hashimototakeo@mac.com, freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 Hi all. # Sorry from another 'from' address, # but I am the sender of advocacy/89731. On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 John Baldwin wrote: >On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> >Description: >> >> there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. >> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >> - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. >> - oldie does not think about mass happiness. >> - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. >> - waste network traffic and server resource. >> - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" > >Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on jp.FreeBSD.org. >Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that manages all of >the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, etc. You need >to contact the folks there via postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org. Note also that >spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that a public >mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. > >-- I know that jp.FreeBSD.org is just one of sub domain of FreeBSD.org, and FreeBSD.org doesn't administer it, and FreeBSD.org doesn't have a fault about this. But spam damages FreeBSD own honor. I think that this is a whole FreeBSD problem, and I think that only FreeBSD.org can make jp.FreeBSD.org change. # so I did send-pr. Of course I know the admins of jp.freebsd.org are busy. I respect thier volunteer mind, but sorry to say, the way admin do it is arbitrary. I think transparency and democracy is necessary for a decision on will, like a core team. OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. that is a matter of ML management policy. and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, so we have to search the solution which get the biggest effect by the minimum cost. I think "restrict_post" is the answer. #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 04:39:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D8E16A420 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:39:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858BE43D46 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:39:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 2849222 for multiple; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:37:53 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.15] (osx.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jAU4d2RY077256; Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:39:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) In-Reply-To: <200511300320.jAU3K6Ib064373@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <200511300320.jAU3K6Ib064373@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <820FF69A-D915-4421-9F8E-B481607BDE38@FreeBSD.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Baldwin Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:38:52 -0500 To: Takeo Hashimoto X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:39:26 -0000 On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:20 AM, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been > noted by GNATS. > > From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) > To: jhb@freebsd.org, postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hashimototakeo@mac.com, > freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp > Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's > mailing list > Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:12:09 +0900 > > Hi all. > > # Sorry from another 'from' address, > # but I am the sender of advocacy/89731. > > On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:28:31 -0500 > John Baldwin wrote: >> On Tuesday 29 November 2005 12:36 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >>>> Description: >>> >>> there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. >>> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >>> - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of >>> community. >>> - oldie does not think about mass happiness. >>> - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from >>> archive. >>> - waste network traffic and server resource. >>> - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" >> >> Note that FreeBSD.org doesn't administer the services on >> jp.FreeBSD.org. >> Instead, jp.FreeBSD.org is delegated to a separate group that >> manages all of >> the resources for jp.FreeBSD.org including DNS, mailing lists, >> etc. You need >> to contact the folks there via postmaster@jp.FreeBSD.org. Note >> also that >> spam is an unfortunate reality and that there is only so much that >> a public >> mailing list run by volunteers in their spare time can do. >> >> -- > > I know that jp.FreeBSD.org is just one of sub domain > of FreeBSD.org, and FreeBSD.org doesn't administer it, > and FreeBSD.org doesn't have a fault about this. > > But spam damages FreeBSD own honor. > I think that this is a whole FreeBSD problem, and > I think that only FreeBSD.org can make jp.FreeBSD.org change. > # so I did send-pr. > > Of course I know the admins of jp.freebsd.org are busy. > I respect thier volunteer mind, but sorry to say, > the way admin do it is arbitrary. > I think transparency and democracy is necessary > for a decision on will, like a core team. > > OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam > pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more > reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. > that is a matter of ML management policy. > and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. > > Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, > so we have to search the solution which get the biggest > effect by the minimum cost. > > I think "restrict_post" is the answer. If you do this for all of the mailing lists then someone has to spend their volunteer time wading through the blocked e-mails to send on the ones which are valid. This means that someone new to FreeBSD will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 06:08:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B2B16A422 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:08:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from tukuda.jip.co.jp (tukuda.jip.co.jp [202.32.98.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E18C43D77 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:07:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 96031 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2005 06:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp) (133.227.39.8) by tukuda.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 30 Nov 2005 06:07:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 18925 invoked by uid 504); 30 Nov 2005 15:07:54 +0900 Received: from emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp (133.227.39.145) by hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 30 Nov 2005 15:07:54 +0900 To: jhb@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:38:52 -0500". <820FF69A-D915-4421-9F8E-B481607BDE38@FreeBSD.org> From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:07:54 +0900 Message-ID: <051130150754.M0701416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:08:03 -0000 On Nov 30, 2005, at 13:38 JST, John Baldwin wrote: >>>>> Description: >>>> >>>> there are too many spams on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list. >>>> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >>>> - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of >>>> community. >>>> - oldie does not think about mass happiness. >>>> - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from >>>> archive. >>>> - waste network traffic and server resource. >>>> - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" (snip) >> OK, we can protect our mailbox by some filter. but spam >> pollutes ML archive (on the web) and spammer can get more >> reachable addresses. That is not an individual problem. >> that is a matter of ML management policy. >> and it should be changed to get happiness of the majority. >> >> Admins are volunteer, and they don't have much time, >> so we have to search the solution which get the biggest >> effect by the minimum cost. >> >> I think "restrict_post" is the answer. > > If you do this for all of the mailing lists then someone has to spend > their volunteer time wading through the blocked e-mails to send on > the ones which are valid. Currently every subscriber has to spend their time wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) And ML archive (on the web) stores all spams automatically. what a kindness. When newbie wants to search some passed topic, they have to "wading through the spam" on the ML archive. e.g. http://home.jp.freebsd.org/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi?idxname=FreeBSD-users-jp > This means that someone new to FreeBSD > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. It is not difficult to subscribe ML even if they are new to FreeBSD. > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, please let me know. #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 13:11:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76B116A41F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:11:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697ED43D46 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:11:33 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 2869126 for multiple; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:09:25 -0500 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jAUDBOee080317; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:11:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:11:21 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <051130150754.M0701416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <051130150754.M0701416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511300811.22458.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: Takeo Hashimoto Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 13:11:38 -0000 On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > Currently every subscriber has to spend their time > wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. > (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that FreeBSD.org's= =20 mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which stops a lot of it= =20 from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks could setup some sp= am=20 filtering on their mail server as well to cut down on the load. Note that= =20 only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are restrict_post, most are open. > > This means that someone new to FreeBSD > > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never > > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that > > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. > > It is not difficult to subscribe ML > even if they are new to FreeBSD. I think you overestimate the skill of some newbies. The other problem is t= hat=20 some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm not sur= e=20 it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more non-spams jus= t=20 so they can ask a question. > > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since > > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. > > I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). > > If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, > please let me know. Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam recentl= y=20 have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the only= =20 real solution is for the receiver to block spam. For example, since you've= =20 submitted a PR, you'll probably now get just as much spam from that and thi= s=20 e-mail exchange as you would by being on a jp list. The actual advocacy@=20 list might not get as much spam sent to it, but your personal e-mail addres= s=20 will be flooded, so you're going to need to setup some filtering on your=20 receiving end no matter what. You can see more responses about that if you= =20 look at the recent thread on cvs-all about the commit to query-pr.cgi to=20 sort-of hide e-mail addresses. =2D-=20 John Baldwin =A0<>< =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =A0=3D =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 14:20:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519AE16A41F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:20:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from tukuda2.jip.co.jp (tukuda2.jip.co.jp [202.32.98.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8255943D46 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:20:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 42005 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2005 14:20:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp) (133.227.39.8) by tukuda2.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 30 Nov 2005 14:20:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 29948 invoked by uid 504); 30 Nov 2005 23:20:20 +0900 Received: from emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp (133.227.39.145) by hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 30 Nov 2005 23:20:20 +0900 To: jhb@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:11:21 -0500". <200511300811.22458.jhb@freebsd.org> From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:20:20 +0900 Message-ID: <051130232020.M1201416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:20:23 -0000 Thanks following up. On Wednesday 30 November 2005 22:11 JST, jhb@freebsd.org wrote >On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> Currently every subscriber has to spend their time >> wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. >> (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) > >Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that FreeBSD.org's >mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which stops a lot of it >from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks could setup some spam >filtering on their mail server as well to cut down on the load. Note that >only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are restrict_post, most are open. FreeBSD.org lists may be greater than jp's, but you said to me: > Also, I should note that FreeBSD.org's >mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which stops a lot of it >from showing up on FreeBSD lists. it is very good. I'm very grad to hear that. we all want to hear same explanation from jp admins. There is no transparency on jp.FreeBSD.org, so we feel no democracy and admins dogma. >> > This means that someone new to FreeBSD >> > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never >> > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that >> > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. >> >> It is not difficult to subscribe ML >> even if they are new to FreeBSD. > >I think you overestimate the skill of some newbies. I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. and that is my 1st point. - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. because the archive has been filled with spam. But I agree "open" and "restrict_post" should be beneficiate for each list. > The other problem is that >some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm not sure >it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more non-spams just >so they can ask a question. If user posts some questions to the list, then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). but you don't think so. mmm... >> > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since >> > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. >> >> I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). >> >> If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, >> please let me know. > >Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam recently "discussions" sounds good. I think we are same on this point: "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with gatekeeper)" I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. >have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the only >real solution is for the receiver to block spam. well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter for beginners, and have to shout to them "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 15:29:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9F716A445; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:29:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) Received: from caelis.elvandar.org (caelis.elvandar.org [217.148.169.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3AA43D45; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:29:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from remko@elvandar.org) Received: from localhost (caelis.elvandar.org [217.148.169.59]) by caelis.elvandar.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58C9930539; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:29:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from caelis.elvandar.org ([217.148.169.59]) by localhost (caelis.elvandar.org [217.148.169.59]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05218-01; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:29:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from webmail.evilcoder.org (dartagnan.elvandar.intranet [10.0.3.122]) by caelis.elvandar.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E052930525; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:29:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <57758.145.221.52.72.1133364583.squirrel@webmail.evilcoder.org> In-Reply-To: <051130232020.M1201416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> References: Your message of "Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:11:21 -0500". <200511300811.22458.jhb@freebsd.org> <051130232020.M1201416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:29:43 +0100 (CET) From: "Remko Lodder" To: "Takeo Hashimoto" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by the elvandar.org maildomain Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:29:46 -0000 On Wed, November 30, 2005 15:20, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > > I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. > and that is my 1st point. > - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. > because the archive has been filled with spam. You are colliding with yourself here i think. People do not search the archives first and then ask questions, as someone who helped out on questions@ a year ago, i can tell you that. Also -if- people search on the archives and they give good keywords they will find the proper information without the spam. > > But I agree "open" and "restrict_post" should be beneficiate for each > list. > >> The other problem >> is that >>some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm >> not sure >>it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more >> non-spams just >>so they can ask a question. > > If user posts some questions to the list, > then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? > unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. > I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). > > but you don't think so. mmm... I think that it will not work; restrict post requires manual intervention and that will cost a lot of overhead; many posts will be blocked and in the end no one will be happy. The one thing that can be done on the jp.freebsd.org side is filtering more agressively like the freebsd.org mx records do. Also these days end users should have enabled spam filters, mostly that is an option through the ISP they use, and imo people cannot live without some kind of filtering anymore, and that will only get worse (and worse; and worse). > >>> > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since >>> > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. >>> >>> I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). >>> >>> If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, >>> please let me know. >> >>Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam >> recently > > "discussions" sounds good. > > I think we are same on this point: > "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" > We should provide proper help to the people that have questions and do the thing we can do (implement some level of filtering at our side by using blacklists or something). > but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with > gatekeeper)" > I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". I'd say; open a can of people that can help you manage this and you are welcome to put this into production ;-) > > I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public > hearing. > Will this PR cause their action? I hope. I do not think this will cause postmaster@jp.freebsd.org to start doing something with it. This mailinglist, nor any of the others are for that specific reason. you should contact them immediatly... > >>have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the >> only >>real solution is for the receiver to block spam. > > well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter > for beginners, and have to shout to them > "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" Right, and that people should not drive too hard since they will get traffic fines and that they should not steal, kill and such.. impossible :-) > #----------------------------------------------------------# > # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # > #----------------------------------------------------------# > -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder ** remko@elvandar.org FreeBSD ** remko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 15:50:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC3616A41F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:50:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D92143D78 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:49:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 2877020 for multiple; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:47:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jAUFndaA081472; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:49:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: Takeo Hashimoto Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:49:02 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <051130232020.M1201416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <051130232020.M1201416@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200511301049.03461.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:50:02 -0000 On Wednesday 30 November 2005 09:20 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > Thanks following up. > > On Wednesday 30 November 2005 22:11 JST, jhb@freebsd.org wrote > > >On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >> Currently every subscriber has to spend their time > >> wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. > >> (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) > > > >Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that > > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which > > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks > > could setup some spam filtering on their mail server as well to cut down > > on the load. Note that only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are > > restrict_post, most are open. > > FreeBSD.org lists may be greater than jp's, but you said to me: > > Also, I should note that > > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which > > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. > > it is very good. I'm very grad to hear that. > we all want to hear same explanation from jp admins. > > There is no transparency on jp.FreeBSD.org, > so we feel no democracy and admins dogma. Yes, but with volunteer projects you as a user can't just go mandate that the people doing the work go spend their time doing X. FreeBSD isn't that much of a democracy either. Granted, core members are elected, but only by developers, not by users. This is something of a common theme in the Open Source world in that the people who do the work get to make decisions. FreeBSD.org also has very little oversight of xx.FreeBSD.org, those entities are fairly autonomous. Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins directly? Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if so? If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. If users end up preferring your lists then at some point your list may supersede the current list at jp.FreeBSD.org. > >> > This means that someone new to FreeBSD > >> > will likely have their questions lost because the e-mail will never > >> > make it to the list (e.g. freebsd-questions) and would make it that > >> > much harder for new people to get help getting started with FreeBSD. > >> > >> It is not difficult to subscribe ML > >> even if they are new to FreeBSD. > > > >I think you overestimate the skill of some newbies. > > I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. > and that is my 1st point. Heh, if you've ever been on an IRC help channel you'll know that a lot don't search the web first. :) They just look for an IRC channel, mailing list, or newsgroup where they can post their question. > > The other problem is > > that some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm > > not sure it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more > > non-spams just so they can ask a question. > > If user posts some questions to the list, > then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? > unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. > I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). > > but you don't think so. mmm... I think that he will still get spam even if the list is restrict_post. He may not get spam that is sent to the list address directly, but now his e-mail is mirrorred in a bunch of places all over the net and easily harvested by spammers, thus by posting a question he is already going to be subject to a flood of spam directly to his personal address. Thus, regardless of restrict_post the user ends up with a lot of spam in his inbox one way or another. > I think we are same on this point: > "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" > > but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with gatekeeper)" > I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". > > I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public > hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. Well, I'm not sure any of the jp guys are reading this exchange, so I don't know if it will result in any action or not. The PR database really isn't suited well for this type of request either. If you haven't talked to the jp folks directly, then you should do that first (but not the caveats I mentioned earlier). If you have talked to the jp folks and are unhappy with their response, you can try to bring the issue to core@. However, if you are unable to convince the jp admins to make a change, your best bet may be to work on setting up your own alternative list. > >have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the only > >real solution is for the receiver to block spam. > > well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter > for beginners, and have to shout to them > "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" Unfortunately spam is a problem that people will have regardless of whether they run FreeBSD. Many use ISPs that already block a lot of spam for them which is some help. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 18:02:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748DC16A41F for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:02:39 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from mail03.toshima.ne.jp (mail03.toshima.ne.jp [202.140.193.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CF7743D45 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:02:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 27168 invoked by uid 0); 1 Dec 2005 03:02:06 +0900 Received: from pix02.toshima.ne.jp (HELO emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp) (202.140.192.130) by t.toshima.ne.jp with SMTP; 1 Dec 2005 03:02:06 +0900 From: HashimotoTakeo@mac.com (Takeo Hashimoto) To: remko@elvandar.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:29:43 +0100 (CET)". <57758.145.221.52.72.1133364583.squirrel@webmail.evilcoder.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 03:02:06 +0900 Message-ID: <051201030206.M0301337@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, HashimotoTakeo@mac.com Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: HashimotoTakeo@mac.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:02:39 -0000 Hello, Mr.Lodder. now I almost agreed with you. - "restrict" is not a golden hammer for some lists. - no one can stop spam tsunami, so people have to protect them by themselves. - on the other hand, we may implement some level of filtering at server side. - sending PR does not change jp.freebsd.org. I should act directly to them. On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 00:29 JST, Remko Lodder wrote: >> I don't think so, they do search first on the web before posting mail. >> and that is my 1st point. >> - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. >> because the archive has been filled with spam. > >You are colliding with yourself here i think. People do not search the >archives first and then ask questions, as someone who helped out on >questions@ a year ago, i can tell you that. Also -if- people search >on the archives and they give good keywords they will find the proper >information without the spam. > >> >> But I agree "open" and "restrict_post" should be beneficiate for each >> list. >> >>> The other problem >>> is that >>>some ML, like questions@, get a large number of e-mails a day. I'm >>> not sure >>>it's fair to require a user to wade through a hundred or more >>> non-spams just >>>so they can ask a question. >> >> If user posts some questions to the list, >> then he might get some answer, and also much hard spam? >> unfortunately it is true at jp.FreeBSD lists. >> I think the policy "restrict_post" will save him (and also us). >> >> but you don't think so. mmm... > >I think that it will not work; restrict post requires manual >intervention and that will cost a lot of overhead; many posts will be >blocked and in the end no one will be happy. The one thing that can be >done on the jp.freebsd.org side is filtering more agressively like the >freebsd.org mx records do. Also these days end users should have >enabled spam filters, mostly that is an option through the ISP they >use, and imo people cannot live without some kind of filtering anymore, >and that will only get worse (and worse; and worse). > >> >>>> > Adding restrict_post actually is a lot of work on the admins since >>>> > someone has to handle all the bounced e-mails. >>>> >>>> I think we can simply ignore them (>/dev/null). >>>> >>>> If you have better idea to stop deliver spam, >>>> please let me know. >>> >>>Most of the FreeBSD developers when we have had discussions on spam >>> recently >> >> "discussions" sounds good. >> >> I think we are same on this point: >> "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" >> > >We should provide proper help to the people that have questions and do >the thing we can do (implement some level of filtering at our side by >using blacklists or something). > >> but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with >> gatekeeper)" >> I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". > >I'd say; open a can of people that can help you manage this and you are >welcome to put this into production ;-) > >> >> I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public >> hearing. >> Will this PR cause their action? I hope. > >I do not think this will cause postmaster@jp.freebsd.org to start doing >something with it. This mailinglist, nor any of the others are for that >specific reason. you should contact them immediatly... > >> >>>have concluded that the spam problem is so large and extent, that the >>> only >>>real solution is for the receiver to block spam. >> >> well, we have to write easy-setup-guide of spam-filter >> for beginners, and have to shout to them >> "Wait! set up your filter before you post!" > >Right, and that people should not drive too hard since they will >get traffic fines and that they should not steal, kill and such.. >impossible :-) > >> #----------------------------------------------------------# >> # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # >> #----------------------------------------------------------# >> > >-- >Kind regards, > > Remko Lodder ** remko@elvandar.org > FreeBSD ** remko@FreeBSD.org #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. It's impossible, ...but doable. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 30 18:04:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECF316A424 for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:04:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from mail03.toshima.ne.jp (mail03.toshima.ne.jp [202.140.193.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A20743D7B for ; Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:03:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 28940 invoked by uid 0); 1 Dec 2005 03:03:49 +0900 Received: from pix02.toshima.ne.jp (HELO emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp) (202.140.192.130) by t.toshima.ne.jp with SMTP; 1 Dec 2005 03:03:49 +0900 From: HashimotoTakeo@mac.com (Takeo Hashimoto) To: jhb@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:49:02 -0500". <200511301049.03461.jhb@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 03:03:49 +0900 Message-ID: <051201030349.M0401337@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, HashimotoTakeo@mac.com Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: HashimotoTakeo@mac.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:04:09 -0000 Mr.Baldwin, thanks for your guidance. On Thu 01 Dec 2005 00:49 JST, John Baldwin wrote: >> >On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:07 am, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: >> >> Currently every subscriber has to spend their time >> >> wading through the spam to pick up the ones which are not spam. >> >> (Of course it is dissipation of resources.) >> > >> >Yes, I use spamassassin personally. Also, I should note that >> > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which >> > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. Perhaps the jp folks >> > could setup some spam filtering on their mail server as well to cut down >> > on the load. Note that only a couple of FreeBSD.org lists are >> > restrict_post, most are open. >> >> FreeBSD.org lists may be greater than jp's, but you said to me: >> > Also, I should note that >> > FreeBSD.org's mail server employs some aggressive spam filtering which >> > stops a lot of it from showing up on FreeBSD lists. >> >> it is very good. I'm very grad to hear that. >> we all want to hear same explanation from jp admins. >> >> There is no transparency on jp.FreeBSD.org, >> so we feel no democracy and admins dogma. > >Yes, but with volunteer projects you as a user can't just go mandate that the >people doing the work go spend their time doing X. FreeBSD isn't that much >of a democracy either. Granted, core members are elected, but only by >developers, not by users. This is something of a common theme in the Open >Source world in that the people who do the work get to make decisions. >FreeBSD.org also has very little oversight of xx.FreeBSD.org, those entities >are fairly autonomous. Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins >directly? Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if >so? If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. If >users end up preferring your lists then at some point your list may supersede >the current list at jp.FreeBSD.org. # you're breakin' my heart. :( >Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins directly? OK now I know that it was my mistake that I had started from send-PR. I had to start contacting to jp admins. # yes, I sent some mail to them an hour ago. >Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if so? actually not yet. I want to do so, as I am just a poor user, I am not a developer, but I want to spend my time to make it better. am I wrong again? >If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. I don't want fork. I think that if I (and most jp.FreeBSD.org list user) can't get them to be responsive, there should be some re-election to disclose the dicision making process even if mobocracy. am I wrong again? >> I think we are same on this point: >> "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" >> >> but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with gatekeeper)" >> I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a human". >> >> I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public >> hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. > >Well, I'm not sure any of the jp guys are reading this exchange, so I don't >know if it will result in any action or not. The PR database really isn't >suited well for this type of request either. If you haven't talked to the jp >folks directly, then you should do that first (but not the caveats I >mentioned earlier). If you have talked to the jp folks and are unhappy with >their response, you can try to bring the issue to core@. However, if you are >unable to convince the jp admins to make a change, your best bet may be to >work on setting up your own alternative list. OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. my last task of this PR is only one thing: - post a summary ...am I wrong again? :) anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. It's impossible, ...but doable. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 1 16:53:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F47B16A41F for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:53:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AF143D64 for ; Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:53:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 2947417 for multiple; Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:51:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB1GrXu3090409; Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:53:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: HashimotoTakeo@mac.com Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:50:53 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.2 References: <051201030349.M0401337@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <051201030349.M0401337@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200512011150.54178.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:53:43 -0000 On Wednesday 30 November 2005 01:03 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > >Have you tried talking to the jp.FreeBSD.org admins directly? > > OK now I know that it was my mistake that I had started from send-PR. > I had to start contacting to jp admins. > # yes, I sent some mail to them an hour ago. Great. Hopefully they can address your questions directly. > >Have you volunteered to help out with doing some of the work if so? > > actually not yet. > I want to do so, as I am just a poor user, I am not a developer, > but I want to spend my time to make it better. > > am I wrong again? No, you aren't wrong. It just takes a while to learn how things work in the project and then to figure out how to make things better taking that into account. Also, you would have to talk to the admins first before offering any help anyway. > >If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by > >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. > > I don't want fork. > > I think that if I (and most jp.FreeBSD.org list user) can't get them > to be responsive, there should be some re-election to disclose > the dicision making process even if mobocracy. > > am I wrong again? Well, this goes back to the "whoever does the work" part. Let's assume for argument's sake that the folks at jp.freebsd.org are unresponsive. What do you really want the project to do? We don't have accounts on the jp machines so we can't change things directly (and it would be somewhat rude to muck around on someone else's machines anyway). We can't force the jp folks to give their machines up to someone else, it's their hardware, they can do what they want with it. All we can really do is point the jp.freebsd.org domain at a different set of folks, but we can't do that unless a different set of folks with machines exist and are setup and have demonstrated that they are more responsive than the existing jp folks. > >> I think we are same on this point: > >> "how to make it easy for new people to get started with FreeBSD?" > >> > >> but the conclusion is different. You say "open the door (with > >> gatekeeper)" I say "close the door until you examine the newcomer is a > >> human". > >> > >> I think that it is policy problem, so jp admins need to have public > >> hearing. Will this PR cause their action? I hope. > > > >Well, I'm not sure any of the jp guys are reading this exchange, so I > > don't know if it will result in any action or not. The PR database > > really isn't suited well for this type of request either. If you haven't > > talked to the jp folks directly, then you should do that first (but not > > the caveats I mentioned earlier). If you have talked to the jp folks and > > are unhappy with their response, you can try to bring the issue to core@. > > However, if you are unable to convince the jp admins to make a change, > > your best bet may be to work on setting up your own alternative list. > > OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. > my last task of this PR is only one thing: > - post a summary > > ...am I wrong again? :) You can post a summary if you wish. I'll probably close the PR after that though. > anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. Ok, that's the best thing to do for now. If the jp folks are not responsive you can send an e-mail to core@, but note that from the notes above there really isn't a whole lot core can do other than perhaps pull jp.freebsd.org but that would only be viable if the current jp was worse than having no jp at all, which I highly doubt would be true. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 2 03:10:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B2D16A420 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 03:10:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from tukuda.jip.co.jp (tukuda.jip.co.jp [202.32.98.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E1BCC43D60 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 03:10:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 64199 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2005 03:10:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp) (133.227.39.8) by tukuda.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 2 Dec 2005 03:10:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 558 invoked by uid 504); 2 Dec 2005 12:10:18 +0900 Received: from emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp (133.227.39.145) by hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 2 Dec 2005 12:10:18 +0900 To: jhb@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:50:53 -0500". <200512011150.54178.jhb@freebsd.org> From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:10:18 +0900 Message-ID: <051202121018.M0201229@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hashimototakeo@mac.com, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:10:21 -0000 On Thu, 02 Dec 2005 01:50 JST, John Baldwin wrote: >> >If you can't get them to be responsive, then you can also take action by >> >setting up your own mailing lists with the policies that you wish to use. >> >> I don't want fork. >> >> I think that if I (and most jp.FreeBSD.org list user) can't get them >> to be responsive, there should be some re-election to disclose >> the dicision making process even if mobocracy. >> >> am I wrong again? > >Well, this goes back to the "whoever does the work" part. Let's assume for >argument's sake that the folks at jp.freebsd.org are unresponsive. OK, I think this is the most sensitive matter. I will try to take this with sufficient care when I talk to jp admins. Thanks for your mention it. > What do >you really want the project to do? I had misunderstood that send-pr will reach to jp admins, but now I know send-pr system is not directly connected to jp admins. so... If there is someone in the project who can contact to jp admins, and if he can, would he please forward this topic to them? That is the only thing that I can want the project to do. > We don't have accounts on the jp machines >so we can't change things directly (and it would be somewhat rude to muck >around on someone else's machines anyway). We can't force the jp folks to >give their machines up to someone else, it's their hardware, they can do what >they want with it. yeah. no doubt. it is clear. > All we can really do is point the jp.freebsd.org domain >at a different set of folks, but we can't do that unless a different set of >folks with machines exist and are setup and have demonstrated that they are >more responsive than the existing jp folks. waoh waoh it is the last choise that I don't want. I am not a terrorist, I want to make better changes (or no changes) peacefully. >> OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. >> my last task of this PR is only one thing: >> - post a summary >> >> ...am I wrong again? :) > >You can post a summary if you wish. I'll probably close the PR after that >though. Thanks. I am now preparing it, please wait more few hours. >> anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. > >Ok, that's the best thing to do for now. If the jp folks are not responsive >you can send an e-mail to core@, but note that from the notes above there >really isn't a whole lot core can do other than perhaps pull jp.freebsd.org >but that would only be viable if the current jp was worse than having no jp >at all, which I highly doubt would be true. I hope that I do not send claim to core@. We still need jp subdomain, I just want to make it better. #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 2 13:25:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11F316A420 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:25:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from speedfactory.net (mail6.speedfactory.net [66.23.216.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D34343D58 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:25:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (unverified [66.23.211.162]) by speedfactory.net (SurgeMail 3.5b3) with ESMTP id 3006827 for multiple; Fri, 02 Dec 2005 08:23:06 -0500 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id jB2DOvoe002243; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:25:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: Takeo Hashimoto Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:23:03 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.3 References: <051202121018.M0201229@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <051202121018.M0201229@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200512020823.05064.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com r=1653887525 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, hashimototakeo@mac.com Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:25:21 -0000 On Thursday 01 December 2005 10:10 pm, Takeo Hashimoto wrote: > > What > > do you really want the project to do? > > I had misunderstood that send-pr will reach to jp admins, > but now I know send-pr system is not directly connected to jp admins. > > so... If there is someone in the project who can contact to jp admins, > and if he can, would he please forward this topic to them? > That is the only thing that I can want the project to do. Ok, that sounds reasonable. I can point one of the guys on core@ at this P= R=20 actually since he is in .jp and I think he might work with jp.freebsd.org. > > All we can really do is point the jp.freebsd.org > > domain at a different set of folks, but we can't do that unless a > > different set of folks with machines exist and are setup and have > > demonstrated that they are more responsive than the existing jp folks. > > waoh waoh it is the last choise that I don't want. > I am not a terrorist, I want to make better changes (or no changes) > peacefully. I understand. I'm mostly just trying to make a point about what the projec= t=20 can or can not do. I guess the biggest thing is that freebsd.org and=20 jp.freebsd.org aren't very tightly joined, but fairly independent of each=20 other. > >> OK, then, this PR was wrong topic. > >> my last task of this PR is only one thing: > >> - post a summary > >> > >> ...am I wrong again? :) > > > >You can post a summary if you wish. I'll probably close the PR after th= at > >though. > > Thanks. I am now preparing it, please wait more few hours. Sure. > >> anyway, I will keep act to jp admins. thanks. > > > >Ok, that's the best thing to do for now. If the jp folks are not > > responsive you can send an e-mail to core@, but note that from the notes > > above there really isn't a whole lot core can do other than perhaps pull > > jp.freebsd.org but that would only be viable if the current jp was worse > > than having no jp at all, which I highly doubt would be true. > > I hope that I do not send claim to core@. > We still need jp subdomain, I just want to make it better. Yes, I wouldn't expect you need to resort to e-mailing core@. Due to the w= ay=20 the projects are organized however, as far as freebsd.org itself, e-mailing= =20 core@ is about all you can really do. Anything less drastic requires=20 interacting with jp.freebsd.org directly, but I think we're both clear on=20 that now. =2D-=20 John Baldwin =A0<>< =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" =A0=3D =A0http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 2 14:01:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809D116A420 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:01:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: from tukuda.jip.co.jp (tukuda.jip.co.jp [202.32.98.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95FE343D80 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:01:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from takeo@ss.jip.co.jp) Received: (qmail 14423 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2005 14:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp) (133.227.39.8) by tukuda.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 2 Dec 2005 14:01:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 15111 invoked by uid 504); 2 Dec 2005 23:01:41 +0900 Received: from emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp (133.227.39.145) by hakuryuu.ss.jip.co.jp with SMTP; 2 Dec 2005 23:01:41 +0900 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:40:18 +0000 (GMT)". <200511291740.jATHeIpk072596@freefall.freebsd.org> From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.22PL7] 2003-09/29(Mon) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:01:41 +0900 Message-ID: <051202230141.M2401229@emifuku.ss.jip.co.jp> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:02:32 +0000 Cc: hashimototakeo@mac.com, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:01:53 -0000 Hi all. I was waiting reply from jp admins, but at this present time, I have not gotten it yet. so I want to close PR first. This is (my) summary. -From-To: open->closed -Why: It is not a suitable topic for PR. 1) Send-pr does not effect subdomain.FreeBSD.org diretly. 2) Subdomain.FreeBSD.org are delegated to a separate group and granted to act autonomous, and there are volunteer admins for each subdomain. 3) People who feel doubt should contact to each subdomain's admins first. That's enough to close this PR. period. Thanks to: John Baldwin, Remko Lodder, Lanny Baron, and all readers. ^L rests are just for reference. looking back on PR description: - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. People who wont search can hit articles with good keywords. People who won't search posts a questions to lists without subscribe. - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. roughly saying, then they can fork, they can set up another list. - oldie does not think about mass happiness. No, jp.FreeBSD.org's lists may have at least marginal filter. and also "posting without subscribe" is useful especially for newbie. - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. Unfortunately no one can stop it. People should protect themselves from spams by some filter. - waste network traffic and server resource. It is such an age. (sigh) - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" (no response about this, but it does not mean assent) also there were three more topics about list management: about list policy: It is useful to keep lists "open" for questioner. Some kind of list (e.g. for admin) may be suitable to close ("restrited"). about protecting lists (server side): Admins may implement some level of filtering at server side and tuning filter (aggressive or lenient) is admins matter. about protecting individual (user side): No one can stop spam tsunami, so people have to protect them by themselves. That's all. # sorry of my strange English. :( #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 2 14:11:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A71516A435 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:11:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9968643DB4 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:10:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (gnats@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB2EA64P030681 for ; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:10:06 GMT (envelope-from gnats@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id jB2EA6ll030680; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:10:06 GMT (envelope-from gnats) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:10:06 GMT Message-Id: <200512021410.jB2EA6ll030680@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) Cc: Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Takeo Hashimoto List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:11:22 -0000 The following reply was made to PR advocacy/89731; it has been noted by GNATS. From: takeo@ss.jip.co.jp (Takeo Hashimoto) To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org Cc: jhb@freebsd.org, remko@elvandar.org, lnb@freebsdsystems.com, hashimototakeo@mac.com, takeo@ss.jip.co.jp Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:01:41 +0900 Hi all. I was waiting reply from jp admins, but at this present time, I have not gotten it yet. so I want to close PR first. This is (my) summary. -From-To: open->closed -Why: It is not a suitable topic for PR. 1) Send-pr does not effect subdomain.FreeBSD.org diretly. 2) Subdomain.FreeBSD.org are delegated to a separate group and granted to act autonomous, and there are volunteer admins for each subdomain. 3) People who feel doubt should contact to each subdomain's admins first. That's enough to close this PR. period. Thanks to: John Baldwin, Remko Lodder, Lanny Baron, and all readers. ^L rests are just for reference. looking back on PR description: - newbie can not find any kind of know-how from ML archive site. People who wont search can hit articles with good keywords. People who won't search posts a questions to lists without subscribe. - almost expert user are disappointed at miserable state of community. roughly saying, then they can fork, they can set up another list. - oldie does not think about mass happiness. No, jp.FreeBSD.org's lists may have at least marginal filter. and also "posting without subscribe" is useful especially for newbie. - once you post article to lists, spammer get your address from archive. Unfortunately no one can stop it. People should protect themselves from spams by some filter. - waste network traffic and server resource. It is such an age. (sigh) - distinct honor of "FreeBSD is a freedom for spammer" (no response about this, but it does not mean assent) also there were three more topics about list management: about list policy: It is useful to keep lists "open" for questioner. Some kind of list (e.g. for admin) may be suitable to close ("restrited"). about protecting lists (server side): Admins may implement some level of filtering at server side and tuning filter (aggressive or lenient) is admins matter. about protecting individual (user side): No one can stop spam tsunami, so people have to protect them by themselves. That's all. # sorry of my strange English. :( #----------------------------------------------------------# # Takeo Hashimoto. sempre ff. # #----------------------------------------------------------# From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 2 17:59:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@hub.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD6016A420; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:59:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E1843D69; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:59:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (jhb@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jB2HxOW5060100; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:59:24 GMT (envelope-from jhb@freefall.freebsd.org) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id jB2HxOL0060096; Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:59:24 GMT (envelope-from jhb) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:59:24 GMT From: John Baldwin Message-Id: <200512021759.jB2HxOL0060096@freefall.freebsd.org> To: HashimotoTakeo@mac.com, jhb@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Re: advocacy/89731: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:59:24 -0000 Synopsis: TOO MANY SPAMs on jp.freebsd.org's mailing list State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: jhb State-Changed-When: Fri Dec 2 17:58:50 GMT 2005 State-Changed-Why: Closed at submitter's request after discussion. Submitter is following up with the jp.freebsd.org admins directly. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=89731