From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 5 16:18:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17B316A41C for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:18:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from frank@esperance-linux.co.uk) Received: from mailout.zetnet.co.uk (mailout.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.231]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C8C43D1D for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 16:18:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from frank@esperance-linux.co.uk) Received: from irwell.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.47.48] helo=zetnet.co.uk) by mailout.zetnet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1Dexpp-0004X3-00 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2005 17:18:49 +0100 Received: from esperance.zetnet.co.uk (54-144.adsl.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.54.144]) by zetnet.co.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with ESMTP id j55GImoR000996 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:18:49 +0100 Received: (qmail 26495 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Jun 2005 16:18:19 -0000 From: "Frank Shute" Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 17:18:19 +0100 To: FreeBSD chat Message-ID: <20050605161819.GA26448@peach.veggie.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD chat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.11-RELEASE-p4 i386 X-Organisation: 'Esperance Linux' Subject: hacking for fun & profit X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Shute List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:18:53 -0000 Hi all, I got bored whilst on hols last year and decided I wanted to beat the casino on the boat.....after having lost :( I'd heard about the Thorp method of card counting at blackjack: http://www.optimalgambling.com/blackjack/high-low-system.htm so I thought I'd write a program to help me learn (in Javascript): http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/misc/cards.html I haven't learnt yet and I haven't had a chance to visit a casino but I thought others on here might be interested if they're taking a trip to Vegas. Apparently MIT folks used to be seen a lot in those parts....just need a few from Berkeley and we've got a party ;) -- Frank echo "f r a n k @ e s p e r a n c e - l i n u x . c o . u k" | sed 's/ //g' --->PGP keyID: 0x10BD6F4B<--- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 02:27:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1288716A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 02:27:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0878343D49 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 02:27:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DA172856A5; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:57:20 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:57:20 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Scott Sharon Message-ID: <20050606022720.GG64194@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <15246049.1117910173153.JavaMail.Administrator@win01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UTZ8bGhNySVQ9LYl" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15246049.1117910173153.JavaMail.Administrator@win01> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Birthday Calendar X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 02:27:24 -0000 --UTZ8bGhNySVQ9LYl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday, 4 June 2005 at 18:36:13 +0000, Scott Sharon wrote: > Hi, > > I am creating a birthday calendar for myself. Can you please click on the link below and enter your birthday for me. Don't worry it is quick, and you don't have to enter your year of birth:-). > > http://www.BirthdayAlarm.com/bd2/43992450a890634331b619143030c758455892d904 Presumably you already have /usr/share/calendar/calendar.freebsd, right? Greg -- The virus contained in this message was not detected. Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --UTZ8bGhNySVQ9LYl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCo7SIIubykFB6QiMRAu1HAJ4uqvwBWb68otbOQExQW0Lx6RHurwCaA8o6 ce0199jHH61qX6EHKeSd/QQ= =nTGA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UTZ8bGhNySVQ9LYl-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 06:04:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F8D16A4FF; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 06:04:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.net [65.122.236.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C88543D1F; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 06:04:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from anne-o1dpaayth1.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.net [65.122.236.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16173; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 00:04:15 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050606000343.08b7ebb0@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:04:13 -0600 To: Daniel Eischen From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050603175148.08552d50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: Glenn Sieb , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AMD Athlon64... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 06:04:22 -0000 At 06:12 PM 6/3/2005, Daniel Eischen wrote: >C'mon, you can get supported ethernet cards for $20 or less. It's a rackmount system. Only one PCI slot, and it's spoken for. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 18:12:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A619E16A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:12:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4186C43D53 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 18:12:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] ([69.27.157.226]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j56IChQI041676 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 13:12:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:11:42 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050428 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Client controlled Network access ... any experience? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:12:50 -0000 Greetings, I'm looking at a situation which I imagine is common to many institutions, in which I'll want to have a small LAN with full access to LAN resources, but not allowing any gateway access unless a "supervisor" type person authorizes the excursion. What should I consider? A proxy server? A configurable firewall script? I could probably write something, script-wise, that might be workable on the LAN webserver ... I'm certain the gateway, and perhaps some of the clients, will be FBSD; but there are already Winboxen on the LAN, and we may want to extend "protection" to these as well.... Anyone with a brief word of Wisdom? (Perhaps like, "what the heck to Google for" ??) TIA, Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 21:06:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AC916A41C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:06:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krod77@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C919943D4C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:06:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krod77@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so1408379wra for ; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:06:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=t24GVARGDbEwZPOY0+/mR60/364QLThJ7wh0Gg8rjImK2lxko8RgXn5wvC4xwP/bwMCA2Lph0QugKvCERLwytsuRBV4NIBiYn+mWnqRmbbtgY972SxPTLDQX2qHbPjcsuD/qxDMK1fADFwZM/yp1hBIq3pe7dFBhzG4ZfY0egqo= Received: by 10.54.115.3 with SMTP id n3mr3416882wrc; Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.66.19 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:06:14 -0500 From: Jared To: Kevin Kinsey In-Reply-To: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Client controlled Network access ... any experience? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jared List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:06:48 -0000 I have used a proxy server in the past with a similar situation as yours, I didn't have many problems with it. On 6/6/05, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > I'm looking at a situation which I imagine is common to many institutions= , > in which I'll want to have a small LAN with full access to LAN resources, > but not allowing any gateway access unless a "supervisor" type person > authorizes the excursion. >=20 > What should I consider? A proxy server? A configurable firewall script? > I could probably write something, script-wise, that might be workable on > the LAN webserver ... >=20 > I'm certain the gateway, and perhaps some of the clients, will be FBSD; > but there are already Winboxen on the LAN, and we may want to extend > "protection" to these as well.... >=20 > Anyone with a brief word of Wisdom? (Perhaps like, "what the heck to > Google for" ??) >=20 > TIA, >=20 > Kevin Kinsey > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 --=20 -Cheers --http://phoenix-network.org --http://krod.info From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 21:58:58 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C69C16A41C; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:58:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73AD143D1D; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 21:58:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bmah@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.localdomain (dns.packetdesign.com [65.192.41.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j56LwmjI001004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:58:49 -0700 From: "Bruce A. Mah" To: Kevin Kinsey In-Reply-To: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> References: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-ZX6bB8fwconrIzjcibmf" Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:58:49 -0700 Message-Id: <1118095129.2131.13.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Cc: bmah@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Client controlled Network access ... any experience? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:58:58 -0000 --=-ZX6bB8fwconrIzjcibmf Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If memory serves me right, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > I'm looking at a situation which I imagine is common to many institutions= , > in which I'll want to have a small LAN with full access to LAN resources, > but not allowing any gateway access unless a "supervisor" type person > authorizes the excursion. [snip] > Anyone with a brief word of Wisdom? (Perhaps like, "what the heck to > Google for" ??) It sounds to me like "captive portal" is what you want to Google for. These are commonly used to control access to wireless networks, but it sounds like this might be a good application for one. Good luck! Bruce. --=-ZX6bB8fwconrIzjcibmf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQBCpMcZ2MoxcVugUsMRAlbdAJwKDhi8Oa/dccPU3eB02jS49VfcSgCgwNwe Bu4PICtUNcWkZ1Bf3gDUFfQ= =URki -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-ZX6bB8fwconrIzjcibmf-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 22:47:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C7616A41F for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:47:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748E043D4C for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:47:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] ([69.27.157.226]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j56Ml2Et043005; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:47:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <42A4D22A.8020905@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:46:02 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050428 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jared References: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Client controlled Network access ... any experience? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:47:06 -0000 Jared wrote: Thanks for the reply! >I have used a proxy server in the past with a similar situation as >yours, I didn't have many problems with it. > > > > Right, but the idea is that I don't have to control the server, but a somewhat "illiterate" (geek-wise) person (read, lab instructor, group facilitator, low-level tech person) can enter a password on either a web form or a client-side app that unlocks access to the WAN. Is that what you had going? It's not unlike what, say, Yahoo!/SBC DSL does with "parental controls" on their many millions of home users, but I want similar functionality for FBSD/cross-platform. Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 6 22:48:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3191916A41C; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:48:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9A343D5D; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:48:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] ([69.27.157.226]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j56Mme9H043014; Mon, 6 Jun 2005 17:48:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <42A4D28D.2010909@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:47:41 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.7) Gecko/20050428 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bruce A. Mah" References: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> <1118095129.2131.13.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1118095129.2131.13.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Client controlled Network access ... any experience? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:48:44 -0000 Bruce A. Mah wrote: >If memory serves me right, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > > > >>I'm looking at a situation which I imagine is common to many institutions, >>in which I'll want to have a small LAN with full access to LAN resources, >>but not allowing any gateway access unless a "supervisor" type person >>authorizes the excursion. >> >> > >[snip] > > > >>Anyone with a brief word of Wisdom? (Perhaps like, "what the heck to >>Google for" ??) >> >> > >It sounds to me like "captive portal" is what you want to Google for. >These are commonly used to control access to wireless networks, but it >sounds like this might be a good application for one. > >Good luck! > >Bruce. > > > That does look promising ... thanks! And thanks also for all your work at re-eng and FBSD in general! Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 01:50:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F7A16A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:50:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EE4143D48 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 01:50:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 12453 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2005 01:50:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 7 Jun 2005 01:50:53 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050607015053.ZWJH1130.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:50:53 +0800 Message-ID: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:49:51 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Claus Guttesen References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:50:56 -0000 Hi, Claus Guttesen wrote: > Hi. > > I know this is a bit off-topic but it will probably have some impact Isn't chat the better list for this? > on the ongoing work with FreeBSD. As most know by now Apple will base > it's next-generation hardware on the x86-architecture moving away from > the PowerPC. > What is still very unclear is the architecture the machines will have. I believe they will stick with their peripherials and just change the CPU. So, the hardware will be still Apple specific. Only the CPU will be the same as on normal PC. > My hope is that Apple will take the direction away from Darwin and the Apple runs like a rabbit followed by a dog. You cannot predict the direction Apple will go in the very next moment. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 14:05:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224DC16A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:05:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krod77@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.207]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9CD43D1D for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:05:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krod77@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so251920wra for ; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:05:14 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kQgAAg7rTuuzapceu9KAUl80X251VYRR3TPFS2XhaWQcLPj+g3QpgIGBzLbNCsErQSYeRXOKMeRt6LL+VMB5J1mfQZDS0Nn4jr3H9aWwEuWVV6XpaouQgFdzeWJh3jjfqK9Rv0/0uoXT66p+Y58EVdtU6WywwIfABDwVsFNfLtE= Received: by 10.54.5.47 with SMTP id 47mr3862540wre; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.66.19 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:04:43 -0500 From: Jared To: Kevin Kinsey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <42A4D28D.2010909@daleco.biz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <42A491DE.7080701@daleco.biz> <1118095129.2131.13.camel@localhost> <42A4D28D.2010909@daleco.biz> Cc: Subject: Re: Client controlled Network access ... any experience? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jared List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:05:15 -0000 I'm sure you could get something nice and gui for they guy, point and click admin access, you may even be able to cook up something yourself, simple cgi scripts would do the job. On 6/6/05, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Bruce A. Mah wrote: >=20 > >If memory serves me right, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > > > > > > > >>I'm looking at a situation which I imagine is common to many institutio= ns, > >>in which I'll want to have a small LAN with full access to LAN resource= s, > >>but not allowing any gateway access unless a "supervisor" type person > >>authorizes the excursion. > >> > >> > > > >[snip] > > > > > > > >>Anyone with a brief word of Wisdom? (Perhaps like, "what the heck to > >>Google for" ??) > >> > >> > > > >It sounds to me like "captive portal" is what you want to Google for. > >These are commonly used to control access to wireless networks, but it > >sounds like this might be a good application for one. > > > >Good luck! > > > >Bruce. > > > > > > >=20 > That does look promising ... thanks! And thanks also for all > your work at re-eng and FBSD in general! >=20 > Kevin Kinsey > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 --=20 Cheers, Jared --http://phoenix-network.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 14:08:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE0216A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:08:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krod77@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0390443D48 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:08:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krod77@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so253035wra for ; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:08:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VmFRAK+xaH7u4nlmveinu5bcSZiFOACE2wfEbAbOgxNTm2sxgdnTD4Dsrp/qloG5/uEFpTtco3h2WfXHLLxSTexabgwzgyQSsQQ9nZvivY+0/W/xKbhUrUGurw7pO24rF4jTQOOXuEPlJt9vHE0MJM7NUcGYEguzAQ1hOQghx4c= Received: by 10.54.51.17 with SMTP id y17mr3867025wry; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.66.19 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:07:55 -0500 From: Jared To: Erich Dollansky In-Reply-To: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Jared List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 14:08:18 -0000 I have heard rumors of this, I hope they do, at least make the mac x86 compliant. On 6/6/05, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Claus Guttesen wrote: > > Hi. > > > > I know this is a bit off-topic but it will probably have some impact >=20 > Isn't chat the better list for this? >=20 > > on the ongoing work with FreeBSD. As most know by now Apple will base > > it's next-generation hardware on the x86-architecture moving away from > > the PowerPC. > > > What is still very unclear is the architecture the machines will have. I > believe they will stick with their peripherials and just change the CPU. > So, the hardware will be still Apple specific. Only the CPU will be the > same as on normal PC. >=20 > > My hope is that Apple will take the direction away from Darwin and the >=20 > Apple runs like a rabbit followed by a dog. You cannot predict the > direction Apple will go in the very next moment. >=20 > Erich > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >=20 --=20 Cheers, Jared --http://phoenix-network.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 16:03:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C53016A420 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:03:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE46943D60 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:03:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (qmail 27014 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2005 16:03:04 -0000 Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org) ([66.92.78.145]) (envelope-sender ) by mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Jun 2005 16:03:04 -0000 Received: by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix, from userid 1147) id 4FFBA2A; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Sender: lowell@be-well.ilk.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 07 Jun 2005 12:03:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:03:06 -0000 Jared writes: > I have heard rumors of this, I hope they do, at least make the mac x86 > compliant. That's their plan. It was in the business section of my morning paper today. It's pretty much a question of being able to get enough chips; IBM had really struggled on delivery of new PowerPC CPUs (especially low-power ones for laptops). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 17:53:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F029416A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:53:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@Grumpy.DynDNS.org) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 326F143D49 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 17:53:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@Grumpy.DynDNS.org) Received: (qmail 32134 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jun 2005 17:53:16 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO Grumpy.DynDNS.org) (69.73.60.132) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 2005 17:53:16 -0000 Received: by Grumpy.DynDNS.org (Postfix, from userid 928) id 2806065AB; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:53:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:53:03 -0500 From: David Kelly To: Lowell Gilbert Message-ID: <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 17:53:19 -0000 On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 12:03:03PM -0400, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > Jared writes: > > > I have heard rumors of this, I hope they do, at least make the mac x86 > > compliant. > > That's their plan. It was in the business section of my morning paper > today. No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. It has nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use commodity PC hardware. I think Apple will cause the PC market to clean up their act. To make hardware that actually does what it says it will do. Something Microsoft either never understood or lacked the guts to enforce. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 18:10:17 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4631716A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:10:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0906843D48 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:10:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (qmail 2012 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2005 18:10:16 -0000 Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org) ([66.92.78.145]) (envelope-sender ) by mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Jun 2005 18:10:15 -0000 Received: by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix, from userid 1147) id 3296327; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Sender: lowell@be-well.ilk.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 07 Jun 2005 14:10:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> Message-ID: <44acm2m41k.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:10:17 -0000 David Kelly writes: > On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 12:03:03PM -0400, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > > Jared writes: > > > > > I have heard rumors of this, I hope they do, at least make the mac x86 > > > compliant. > > > > That's their plan. It was in the business section of my morning paper > > today. > > No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. It has > nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use commodity PC > hardware. I thought "x86" referred to the CPU family, not the system architecture. In fact, I still do: but on re-reading the message to which I was responding, I realize that "compliant" must refer to the latter rather than the earlier. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. > I think Apple will cause the PC market to clean up their act. To make > hardware that actually does what it says it will do. Something Microsoft > either never understood or lacked the guts to enforce. I don't see where the pressure for that kind of change would come from. Neither company has ever made many specific claims about what the hardware should do. And I'm not sure they should; I'm really not a fan of general purpose computing systems being tied to specific hardware. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 19:41:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A346916A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:41:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB21143D48 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:41:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 720DA36674; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:41:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:40:02 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: David Kelly Message-Id: <20050607214002.4a3b37e8.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.9.11 (GTK+ 2.6.4; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Tue__7_Jun_2005_21_40_02_+0200_BL6fp5pk2nvVOtUa" Cc: freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:41:34 -0000 --Signature=_Tue__7_Jun_2005_21_40_02_+0200_BL6fp5pk2nvVOtUa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:53:03 -0500 David Kelly wrote: > > That's their plan. It was in the business section of my morning paper > > today. =20 >=20 > No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. It has > nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use commodity PC > hardware. OTOH, it seems their x86-based Macs won't use Openfirmware either, which I've always loved. =20 > I think Apple will cause the PC market to clean up their act. To make > hardware that actually does what it says it will do. Something Microsoft > either never understood or lacked the guts to enforce. How so? Apple is a niche market. I find their switch to x86 pretty depressing actually, although I understand their reasons. I doubt the move to a p4 space heater will make a dent on Microsoft's desktop domination. And I wonder if this announcement will cause the 'Osborne effect' and make people delay their purchases. Well, there's still Sun and IBM, albeit not nearly as affordable, for those who want something non-x86. :) The boy you trained, gone he is. Twisted by the Dark Side, young Jobs has become. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 --Signature=_Tue__7_Jun_2005_21_40_02_+0200_BL6fp5pk2nvVOtUa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCpfgWnLctrNyFFPERArybAKCyH0sJb8jEizmPZjvI7o/6M67UMwCfZKj0 mBt8LExuI41fOO2DJfu5jfg= =M9Nz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Tue__7_Jun_2005_21_40_02_+0200_BL6fp5pk2nvVOtUa-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 22:34:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A07C16A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:34:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ronald-freebsd8@klop.yi.org) Received: from smtp-out2.tiscali.nl (smtp-out2.tiscali.nl [195.241.79.177]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB8C43D49 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:34:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ronald-freebsd8@klop.yi.org) Received: from guido.klop.ws (unknown [82.171.39.195]) by smtp-out2.tiscali.nl (Postfix) with SMTP id A62EDB000091 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:34:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 4434 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2005 22:34:44 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO outgoing.local) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Jun 2005 22:34:44 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <200506061548.j56FmQ7w026456@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:34:42 +0200 From: "Ronald Klop" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200506061548.j56FmQ7w026456@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.0 (FreeBSD, build 1095) Cc: Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:34:51 -0000 Did you guys already unmount your filesystem? On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:48:26 +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Yuval Levy wrote: > > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > I do look carefully every day, because it's my job. I work > > > with various operating systems every day, including FreeBSD > > > and Linux. > > > > From a professional I would expect a more mature and balanced > approach, > > rather than "my favorite OS is the best one and the others have no > > advantages". > > That's not what I wrote. FreeBSD is not "the best". There > is no such thing as "the best", in general. > > > Be real: there is a lot of diversity of OS out there and > > they all have advantages and disadvantages. > > Right. Everyone has to decide for himself which tool works > best for his job. > > > > Yup, I know the usual freebsd-for-servers and linux-for- > > > desktops arguments. And to be honest, I'm fed up with > > > them. They're lies. I'm running FreeBSD on my desktop > > > at home, a lot of people are happily running Linux on > > > their servers, and I've seen people successfully installing > > > FreeBSD who have never even heard the word "unix" until > > > that day. > > > > You can run FreeBSD on your desktop at home because you have the > skills, > > the time, the dedication. > > For most "standard" applications it doesn't require any > more skills (or time, or dedication) than with any other > OS. In fact, getting some applications to work correctly > under, say, Windows requires more skills (and time, and > dedication) sometimes. > > > You are special. Every human being is special > > Right. I don't disagree with you there. > > > [...] They do not share your view. > > I do not share your view. This does not make us liars. > > Uhm, what are you talking about? I've never called you a > liar. But those people who claim that FreeBSD is only > suitable for servers and Linux is only suitable for desk- > tops -- those are liars. There are plenty of counter- > examples. > > > I am moving my servers from Linux to FreeBSD, because FreeBSD gives me > > the manageability, stability and security that are more important to > my > > clients than the bleeding edge features that often make it into Linux > first. > > > > I am generally inclined toward Open Source software over proprietary > > one, but will pragmatically mix and match to obtain what works best > for > > me rather than dogmatically pretend that my favorite OS is the best > and > > its filesystem is the brightest and its license is the only acceptable > > distribution form. > > I agree 100%. > > Most of "my" machines (i.e. the machines which I own or > which I'm responsible for to operate) run FreeBSD, but some > also run Linux (Debian), Solaris or Windows. I used to > have OpenBSD, too, but it stopped working for me (a long > story). And currently I'm evaluating to move one of my > privat machines from FreeBSD to DragonFly BSD, because > some of its features would be very useful. > > Still, of all of those systems, FreeBSD is (currently) my > favourite. It's particularly versatile to work well for > all kinds of different purposes, including servers _and_ > desktops. > > > Which brings me back to the topic of this thread: is there anybody out > > there with the skills to cleanly solve this shameful situation in > which > > rebooting FreeBSD results in unclean mounting of ext2 (and potentially > > other) volumes? > > A umount command in rc.shutdown should be a feasible > work-around. > > Fixing the driver is probably not a high-priority, because > not many users are affected by the problem, I guess. > (But then again: It's open source, so you can try to fix > it yourself.) > > Best regards > Oliver > > PS: I think this should rather move to the -chat list. > -- Ronald Klop Amsterdam, The Netherlands From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 22:58:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1267016A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:58:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.net [65.122.236.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8B243D48 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:58:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from anne-o1dpaayth1.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.net [65.122.236.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10044; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:58:16 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050607165322.07be0da0@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 16:58:14 -0600 To: Miguel Mendez , David Kelly From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <20050607214002.4a3b37e8.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <20050607214002.4a3b37e8.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:58:38 -0000 At 01:40 PM 6/7/2005, Miguel Mendez wrote: >How so? Apple is a niche market. I find their switch to x86 pretty >depressing actually, although I understand their reasons. Who says it'll be a total switch? I could easily imagine Apple switching to x86 for its lower end products (or even selling MacOS X for PC clones) but continuing to use PowerPC for high end workstations and servers. There's some actual potential to make a profit selling hardware into these niches, whereas there's little or none in the highly saturated consumer desktop and notebook markets. >The boy you trained, gone he is. Twisted by the Dark Side, young >Jobs has become. There is another. Seriously: in many folks' opinion, Jobs *was* the Dark Side and should have done something like this years ago. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 23:28:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EAFC16A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:28:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from ylpvm29.prodigy.net (ylpvm29-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.60]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117E343D4C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:28:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from pimout3-ext.prodigy.net (pimout3-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.218]) by ylpvm29.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j57NS2Ce000983 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:28:02 -0400 X-ORBL: [68.254.53.94] Received: from digitalarcadia.net ([68.254.53.94]) by pimout3-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j57NSAIJ401210 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:28:14 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (monolith.digitalarcadia.net [10.0.1.74]) by digitalarcadia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C7D1ED5EF for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:29:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:28:13 -0500 From: Duo User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> In-Reply-To: <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:28:16 -0000 David Kelly wrote: >No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. It has >nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use commodity PC >hardware. > > Uhm, for the last several years, they have been using alot more "commodity" hardware, from AGP Video cards, etc. I cannot speak to x86 compliance, but, using commodity hardware, they most certainly have been doing. What do you call PCI/VGA? How about USB? USB wasnt even considered a commodity until it was slapped into an iMac. As someone who cut his teeth with Apple hardware, this is a glaring piece of misinformation. Sorry for the harsh tone, but, the days of "mac only" monitors, the Mac boot ROM, etc, have been long gone for awhile now. About the only difference in the boot ROM dept, would be the use of OpenFirmware, which is forth based, as opposed to BIOS, which in my opinion, has made it far more functional than a traditional bios. What happens with OF now is somewhat of a mystery. But, I think, by and large, this makes Macs a bit more extensible. As for Apple's insistance they "wont allow" OS X to be run on anything other than sanctioned Mac hardware, id like to point to similar statements from the MPAA regarding DVD, etc. I give it two weeks from the retail release of OS X for intel, before we see a slashdot entry. >I think Apple will cause the PC market to clean up their act. To make >hardware that actually does what it says it will do. Something Microsoft >either never understood or lacked the guts to enforce. > > > On this, I do agree. I think Mac hardware lives up to a better standard of quality than most x86 machines, BUT, I would also surmise, as Microsoft consistantly has sold products to people who knew they were flawed, that this is a 50/50 proposition. At best. One thing, that I am insanely curious about, is, will this make endian issues in sourcecode not ported to PPC go away for the most part? Specifically in regard to networking (client/server)? -- Duo. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 23:49:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EEC16A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:49:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sineathj1@citadel.edu) Received: from imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.70]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F82643D1F for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:49:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from sineathj1@citadel.edu) Received: from ibm65aec.bellsouth.net ([65.0.232.44]) by imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net with ESMTP id <20050607234945.FCPX10884.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@ibm65aec.bellsouth.net> for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:49:45 -0400 Received: from GARUDA ([65.0.232.44]) by ibm65aec.bellsouth.net with SMTP id <20050607234945.TNLF2762.ibm65aec.bellsouth.net@GARUDA>; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:49:45 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c56bbb$5eab05d0$0463a8c0@GARUDA> From: "James Bowman Sineath, III" To: "Duo" , References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org><20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:48:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Cc: Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:49:46 -0000 I forwarded this discussion to a friend of mine that is an Apple fanatic. Thought his response was interesting: Bow, I watched the Keynote address on Apple's transition to Intel. Apple has actually been running OS 10 on Intel for 5 years (just in case they wanted to make the switch). The main reason for the transition is the Performance per Watt ratio. The PowerPC will give about 15 and Intel will give about 70. This basically means future Intel processors will get more performance with less power consumption. So, they want to build machines that will run cooler. This will allow them to make laptops with speeds like PowerMacs. So, 64 bits will run with less power consumption (longer battery) and help control the heat and cooling issues that come with having high powered processors (this will help with laptops and iMacs). They have actually already made OS X processor independent since the very first release. So, they have been making sure 10.0-10.4 would be able to run on both. They just released XCode 2.1 which will help compile Universal Binaries for developers which will actually compile the application for Power PC and Intel architectures. The machine will then load whichever it needs. They also created Rosetta which allows for PowerPC programs to run natively on Intel with no necessary boots into some virtual environment. But Mathmatica was recompiled in XCode in 2 hours! So, it won't take long for companies to release Mac/Intel software because the recompile is effortless since Mac has been secretly working this for 5 years. shawn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duo" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 > David Kelly wrote: > >>No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. It has >>nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use commodity PC >>hardware. >> > Uhm, for the last several years, they have been using alot more > "commodity" hardware, from AGP Video cards, etc. I cannot speak to x86 > compliance, but, using commodity hardware, they most certainly have been > doing. What do you call PCI/VGA? How about USB? USB wasnt even > considered a commodity until it was slapped into an iMac. > > As someone who cut his teeth with Apple hardware, this is a glaring > piece of misinformation. Sorry for the harsh tone, but, the days of "mac > only" monitors, the Mac boot ROM, etc, have been long gone for awhile now. > > About the only difference in the boot ROM dept, would be the use of > OpenFirmware, which is forth based, as opposed to BIOS, which in my > opinion, has made it far more functional than a traditional bios. What > happens with OF now is somewhat of a mystery. But, I think, by and > large, this makes Macs a bit more extensible. > > As for Apple's insistance they "wont allow" OS X to be run on anything > other than sanctioned Mac hardware, id like to point to similar > statements from the MPAA regarding DVD, etc. I give it two weeks from > the retail release of OS X for intel, before we see a slashdot entry. > >>I think Apple will cause the PC market to clean up their act. To make >>hardware that actually does what it says it will do. Something Microsoft >>either never understood or lacked the guts to enforce. >> >> > On this, I do agree. I think Mac hardware lives up to a better standard > of quality than most x86 machines, BUT, I would also surmise, as > Microsoft consistantly has sold products to people who knew they were > flawed, that this is a 50/50 proposition. At best. > > One thing, that I am insanely curious about, is, will this make endian > issues in sourcecode not ported to PPC go away for the most part? > Specifically in regard to networking (client/server)? > -- > Duo. > > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 7 23:56:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E4316A41C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:56:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (CPE0050040655c8-CM00111ae02aac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.194.102.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7CA43D4C for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:56:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B891E51288; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:56:27 -0400 From: Kris Kennaway To: "James Bowman Sineath, III" Message-ID: <20050607235627.GA96802@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <000b01c56bbb$5eab05d0$0463a8c0@GARUDA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T4sUOijqQbZv57TR" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c56bbb$5eab05d0$0463a8c0@GARUDA> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Cc: Duo , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:56:29 -0000 --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 07:48:13PM -0400, James Bowman Sineath, III wrote: > necessary boots into some virtual environment. But Mathmatica was > recompiled in XCode in 2 hours! Note that this factoid is possibly a cheat, since Mathematica *already* runs on x86 in several OSes, and is *already* ported to something like 8 architecures and a dozen OSes. It's a cool sound bite, but unlikely to be representative. If your code is non-portable, there's no magical way to fix that. Kris > So, it won't take long for companies > to release Mac/Intel software because the recompile is effortless > since Mac has been secretly working this for 5 years. --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCpjQrWry0BWjoQKURAhyoAKCUgveSWUochHVjI1ROs44Uu6+7SwCfVVcj 6F8z6pPTLGHf3V2f3IIElPw= =kzZI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 00:08:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEE216A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:08:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 39EE543D5C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 00:08:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 16066 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2005 00:08:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by salvador with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 00:08:40 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050608000840.FHVG1130.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:08:40 +0800 Message-ID: <42A636FC.5090800@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:08:28 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lowell Gilbert References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <44acm2m41k.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> In-Reply-To: <44acm2m41k.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:08:44 -0000 Hi, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > David Kelly writes: > > >>On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 12:03:03PM -0400, Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> >>>Jared writes: >>> >>I think Apple will cause the PC market to clean up their act. To make >>hardware that actually does what it says it will do. Something Microsoft >>either never understood or lacked the guts to enforce. > > > I don't see where the pressure for that kind of change would come from. > Neither company has ever made many specific claims about what the > hardware should do. And I'm not sure they should; I'm really not a fan > of general purpose computing systems being tied to specific hardware. The PC is a very specific piece of hardware. Plus, it is also a very screwed one. Take a closer look at its interrupt and DMA systems. Both were outdated when IBM introduced the PC but the industry got stuck with them. Check the those systems in much older hardware from DEC or even from smaller systems like the Z-80. Many of the problems even FreeBSD has (had) would have never have appeared with the interrupt and DAM controllers at the peripheral's side, Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 02:19:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A233516A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:19:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EE7643D1F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:19:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 30351 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2005 02:19:51 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.6?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 02:19:51 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 21:19:20 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:19:53 -0000 On Jun 7, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Duo wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > >> No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. >> It has >> nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use >> commodity PC >> hardware. >> > Uhm, for the last several years, they have been using alot more > "commodity" hardware, from AGP Video cards, etc. I cannot speak to x86 > compliance, but, using commodity hardware, they most certainly have > been > doing. What do you call PCI/VGA? How about USB? USB wasnt even > considered a commodity until it was slapped into an iMac. Think possibly I didn't speak clearly enough. Apple is not *adding* commodity-ness to their product line. Thinking about it I'd bet part of the deal with Intel is a special crypto block or similar in the CPU uniquely identifying it as an Apple Blessed CPU. Apple does this very thing with disk drives. Originally Apple SCSI drivers would only format and configure Apple-blessed drives. Currently the same thing holds true for internal CD/DVD drives. But put the same non-Apple drive on Firewire and MacOS is happy with it. The only AGP/PCI video cards I know of which work in a Mac are the Apple-branded ATI's, but can't say I've been shopping lately. Once Upon A Time I totally failed to convert a Matrox Millennium to Mac service, even with Matrox software. Adaptec PCI SCSI cards certainly can not be made to work in a Macintosh without major work, one has to purchase the specific Macintosh version. PCI ethernet cards often work on MacOS X due to those who "abandoned" BSD to work for Apple on Darwin. Mouse, keyboard, and most USB devices work right out of the box on Macintosh. It will be quite some time before one sees Apple software running on commodity PC hardware. > As someone who cut his teeth with Apple hardware, this is a glaring > piece of misinformation. Sorry for the harsh tone, but, the days of > "mac > only" monitors, the Mac boot ROM, etc, have been long gone for > awhile now. Mac-only monitor? One only has to look back a little bit for the "17 inch Apple Studio LCD". Has an Apple-only digital video interface. Is damn cool. One cable has everything including power, USB, and a couple of control switches which are apparently light sensors. Only one plug at the end of the cable. Does a lot for cleaning up cable clutter. > As for Apple's insistance they "wont allow" OS X to be run on anything > other than sanctioned Mac hardware, id like to point to similar > statements from the MPAA regarding DVD, etc. I give it two weeks from > the retail release of OS X for intel, before we see a slashdot entry. There are already those running PowerPC MacOS X on x86 hardware using CPU interpreter/emulation. > One thing, that I am insanely curious about, is, will this make endian > issues in sourcecode not ported to PPC go away for the most part? > Specifically in regard to networking (client/server)? Is there a way to toggle a modern Intel CPU into big-endian mode? Thats part of the big fuss with the G5 and VirtualPC, that unlike the G4, the G5 can't be simply toggled back and forth between big and little. Or maybe the G5 can't be toggled at all. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 02:58:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F3016A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:58:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav07.sasknet.sk.ca (misav07.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67ABB43D4C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 02:58:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from oregano.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.197]) by misav07 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:58:13 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (hssx-yktn-59-202.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by oregano.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHQ00BCSW90PQ@oregano.sasktel.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:58:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:52:58 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> To: Duo Message-id: <42A65D8A.8060200@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 02:58:15 -0000 > On this, I do agree. I think Mac hardware lives up to a better standard > of quality than most x86 machines, BUT, I would also surmise, as > Microsoft consistantly has sold products to people who knew they were > flawed, that this is a 50/50 proposition. At best. Have you used the new stock Apple keyboards? Their new mice (with the *one* button on the BOTTOM of all places)? Both of them annoy me to no end when I'm forced to use them. If they are an example of a "better standard" I'm glad I still have my trust ultra-clicky ancient IBM PS/2 keyboard thank-you very much. (And three buttons on top of my mouse) > One thing, that I am insanely curious about, is, will this make endian > issues in sourcecode not ported to PPC go away for the most part? > Specifically in regard to networking (client/server)? SPARC64 is Tier I, PPC isn't. *shrug* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 03:15:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D5F16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:15:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav07.sasknet.sk.ca (misav07.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A21243D48 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:15:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from oregano.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.197]) by misav07 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:15:06 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (hssx-yktn-59-202.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by oregano.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHQ00C3LX154S@oregano.sasktel.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:15:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:09:46 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> To: David Kelly Message-id: <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:15:07 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > Think possibly I didn't speak clearly enough. Apple is not *adding* > commodity-ness to their product line. Thinking about it I'd bet part > of the deal with Intel is a special crypto block or similar in the > CPU uniquely identifying it as an Apple Blessed CPU. Apple does this > very thing with disk drives. Originally Apple SCSI drivers would only > format and configure Apple-blessed drives. Currently the same thing > holds true for internal CD/DVD drives. But put the same non-Apple > drive on Firewire and MacOS is happy with it. You must be dealing with an older "originally" than I. I've replaced the 40MB HD in an SE/30 with a 700-oddMB IBM one from a PS/2 with no issues. Ditto for a pair of uh... *goes and looks* IIci macs. Are we talking way back when Apple didn't use standard SCSI-1 (Which, I think is because there was no formal standard)? May as well complain that you couldn't replace the "non-standard" 800k floppy with a "standard" 720k one. > The only AGP/PCI video cards I know of which work in a Mac are the > Apple-branded ATI's, but can't say I've been shopping lately. Once > Upon A Time I totally failed to convert a Matrox Millennium to Mac > service, even with Matrox software. Adaptec PCI SCSI cards certainly > can not be made to work in a Macintosh without major work, one has to > purchase the specific Macintosh version. PCI ethernet cards often > work on MacOS X due to those who "abandoned" BSD to work for Apple on > Darwin. More often than not, this is a driver issue, not a hardware issue. There's lots of PCI video cards I've never seen work in a Sun system either. Adaptec doesn't have the worlds best reputation for allowing people to write drivers (or even for writing non-buggy firmware) but I seem to recall that the Macs that ship with SCSI support use an Adaptec chipset... oh, on looking, it appears that the IIci uses an NCR SCSI chipset... specifically, the 5380 which was found on many commodity PC SCSI cards too. > Mouse, keyboard, and most USB devices work right out of the box on > Macintosh. Thank goodness, since the stock ones are so terrible. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 03:29:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE34B16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:29:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from ylpvm43.prodigy.net (ylpvm43-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1C843D1F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:29:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from pimout1-ext.prodigy.net (pimout1-int.prodigy.net [207.115.5.65]) by ylpvm43.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j583TIKd009760 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:29:18 -0400 X-ORBL: [68.254.53.94] Received: from digitalarcadia.net ([68.254.53.94]) by pimout1-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j583T8sk038670; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:29:08 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (monolith.digitalarcadia.net [10.0.1.74]) by digitalarcadia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38EB1ED93C; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:30:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A66606.2070206@digitalarcadia.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:29:10 -0500 From: Duo User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:29:10 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > > On Jun 7, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Duo wrote: > >> David Kelly wrote: >> >> >>> No, that is NOT Apple's plan. Apple's plan is to use Intel CPUs. It >>> has >>> nothing to do with "make the mac x86 compliant" or to use commodity PC >>> hardware. >>> >> Uhm, for the last several years, they have been using alot more >> "commodity" hardware, from AGP Video cards, etc. I cannot speak to x86 >> compliance, but, using commodity hardware, they most certainly have >> been >> doing. What do you call PCI/VGA? How about USB? USB wasnt even >> considered a commodity until it was slapped into an iMac. > > > Think possibly I didn't speak clearly enough. Apple is not *adding* > commodity-ness to their product line. Thinking about it I'd bet part > of the deal with Intel is a special crypto block or similar in the > CPU uniquely identifying it as an Apple Blessed CPU. Apple does this > very thing with disk drives. Originally Apple SCSI drivers would only > format and configure Apple-blessed drives. Currently the same thing > holds true for internal CD/DVD drives. But put the same non-Apple > drive on Firewire and MacOS is happy with it. > > The only AGP/PCI video cards I know of which work in a Mac are the > Apple-branded ATI's, but can't say I've been shopping lately. Cant speak too much to AGP, as my current macs are running as servers, and dont need the horsepower that AGP provides. But, I can say, I have a couple of really old PCI cards I use for my G4's, for VGA. Never had an issue. But, I do get what you are saying. Other than that, if there are issues with stock PC components, its typically driver related, not hardware spec related. Strictly speaking, also...I have never had an issue with any Hard Drives in an Apple machine since they went to IDE. Which was ages ago. Even their SCSI stuff was not that bad. Yes, the very early stuff was horrid, and very locked in. But, that was the way with many things. > Once Upon A Time I totally failed to convert a Matrox Millennium to > Mac service, even with Matrox software. Adaptec PCI SCSI cards > certainly can not be made to work in a Macintosh without major work, > one has to purchase the specific Macintosh version. PCI ethernet > cards often work on MacOS X due to those who "abandoned" BSD to work > for Apple on Darwin. Uhm, I dunno...if anything, I have never had any issues with PCI ethernet cards in any PCI mac. When I did, it was trying to get tulip based cards working with LinuxPPC. But, thats a different kettle of fish. Ahhh the days of toying with tulip.c > > Mouse, keyboard, and most USB devices work right out of the box on > Macintosh. > > It will be quite some time before one sees Apple software running on > commodity PC hardware. Well, if as has been surmised, the CPU will be standard intel stuff, I am not so sure. Apple has a tendency to tag motherboards, more than the CPU itself. Apple really never "blessed" a CPU, per se. It would "bless" the Boot ROM in older macs, and "bless" the ROM file in the NuWorld series of macs. When the full on switch to OF came about, such things werent really a bother anymore, as OF simply built the device tree, and passed it to the OS, similar to the way a BIOS does. I think, certainly, alot of this is academic, but, I would say, that...if we get Intel based CPU's, the push will be on in the various F/OSS communities to get OS X running on hardware not blessed by Apple. Apple's historical methodology of "blessing" its hardware has never been the CPU. It's always been something on the motherboard, so to speak. In the Gx line, the move to more industry accepted standards has been a big boost to apple, as things like VGA and USB are more generally accepted, and peripherials are easier to come by. I think this might be a trend that Apple has, over time, come to see more and more. So, *shrugs*, I really do not know. I am more than sure Apple will throw all sorts of wrenches into the works, in regard to running OSX on non sanctioned hardware, but, I guess my point is, if they are moving to x86 architecture, with a BSD backend...there may (and probably) be little or nothing that they can do to stop it. At its very core, (no pun) this is a change in architecture. A move from PPC to x86. Apple is not M$, they are not going to move the earth to keep their product completely unique the way they did circa 1988. They have shown a fairly steady move toward more industry standards, historically, the last ten years, than keeping it all "in house", so to speak. Their move to USB, instead of their horrid serial ports, the move to PCI from NuBus, etc. ADB was nice...but, it locked you into buying keyboards from mac vendors. > >> As someone who cut his teeth with Apple hardware, this is a glaring >> piece of misinformation. Sorry for the harsh tone, but, the days of >> "mac >> only" monitors, the Mac boot ROM, etc, have been long gone for >> awhile now. > > > Mac-only monitor? One only has to look back a little bit for the "17 > inch Apple Studio LCD". Has an Apple-only digital video interface. > Is damn cool. One cable has everything including power, USB, and a > couple of control switches which are apparently light sensors. Only > one plug at the end of the cable. Does a lot for cleaning up cable > clutter. Yeah, the DVI is nice. But, like Firewire, there are DVI cards for PC's. Unlike the old style Mac only monitors, which used the old Apple 9 (?) pin cable. > >> As for Apple's insistance they "wont allow" OS X to be run on anything >> other than sanctioned Mac hardware, id like to point to similar >> statements from the MPAA regarding DVD, etc. I give it two weeks from >> the retail release of OS X for intel, before we see a slashdot entry. > > > There are already those running PowerPC MacOS X on x86 hardware using > CPU interpreter/emulation. Thats not quite in the same ballpark...heck, its not even the same sport. Emulating PPC on x86 is fraught with all kinds of problems, in and of itself. One only has to look at the emulation out there to see that. The emulation being done is nowhere near any kind of speed that would be commercially or "production" acceptable. *snickers....cherryOS* > >> One thing, that I am insanely curious about, is, will this make endian >> issues in sourcecode not ported to PPC go away for the most part? >> Specifically in regard to networking (client/server)? > > > Is there a way to toggle a modern Intel CPU into big-endian mode? > Thats part of the big fuss with the G5 and VirtualPC, that unlike the > G4, the G5 can't be simply toggled back and forth between big and > little. Or maybe the G5 can't be toggled at all. Not sure. I do know, some of the Linux native server code I have worked with, as well as some of the bsd native code I have worked with, wont compile on OS X's backend. And, even if it did, the byte order would affect networking, from what I understand. -- Duo. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 03:37:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F5F16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:37:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from pimout4-ext.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D524243D1D for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:37:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from duo@digitalarcadia.net) Received: from digitalarcadia.net ([68.254.53.94]) by pimout4-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j583bWPA067942; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:37:36 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (monolith.digitalarcadia.net [10.0.1.74]) by digitalarcadia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC77F1ED980; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 22:38:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <42A667FF.6070805@digitalarcadia.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:37:35 -0500 From: Duo User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Hurd References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> In-Reply-To: <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:37:42 -0000 Stephen Hurd wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > >> Currently the same thing holds true for internal CD/DVD drives. But >> put the same non-Apple drive on Firewire and MacOS is happy with it. > > > You must be dealing with an older "originally" than I. I've replaced > the 40MB HD in an SE/30 with a 700-oddMB IBM one from a PS/2 with no > issues. Ditto for a pair of uh... *goes and looks* IIci macs. Are we > talking way back when Apple didn't use standard SCSI-1 (Which, I think > is because there was no formal standard)? May as well complain that > you couldn't replace the "non-standard" 800k floppy with a "standard" > 720k one. Indeed, as I said before, those days have been long gone, for many a moon. And, what's more, Stephens SE/30 should run System 7.5 (8 even?...been awhile since I worked in the old OS's) which means, it should be able to deal with fairly large drives, larger if it can deal with HFS+. So, not even really a driver issue there, its one of disk format. > .... but I seem to recall that the Macs that ship with SCSI > support use an Adaptec chipset... And, id also like to add...I typically had less of a problem with Adaptec stuff with Macs...than I did with PC's. Typically, adaptec stuff ran fairly well on Macs. But, I digress. > Thank goodness, since the stock ones are so terrible. Heh, maybe now we can get a stock two button mouse. =) -- Duo. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 04:31:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2995316A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:31:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F3CB43D1F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:31:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 26504 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2005 04:31:54 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.6?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp7.knology.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 04:31:54 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <42A66606.2070206@digitalarcadia.net> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A66606.2070206@digitalarcadia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <65FBC098-C655-4E6F-90E3-AA06CB3FEFCA@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:31:22 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:31:56 -0000 On Jun 7, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Duo wrote: >> Mac-only monitor? One only has to look back a little bit for the >> "17 inch Apple Studio LCD". Has an Apple-only digital video >> interface. Is damn cool. One cable has everything including >> power, USB, and a couple of control switches which are apparently >> light sensors. Only one plug at the end of the cable. Does a lot >> for cleaning up cable clutter. > > Yeah, the DVI is nice. But, like Firewire, there are DVI cards for > PC's. Unlike the old style Mac only monitors, which used the old > Apple 9 (?) pin cable. My Dual G4-867 has whatever ATI 9xxx upgrade option Apple offered. One DVI port for one display, and one "ADC" port for another. The Apple 17" Studio Display requires the ADC, Apple Display Connector, which includes power, USB, video, everything. Is the ADC of which I speak, not DVI. Original Macintosh color CRTs used a plain DB15 connector rather than the "lets invent something new" high density 3-row 15 pin connector introduced for VGA. Otherwise there was very little difference. One used 0.6 volts drive, the other 0.7. Later VESA (?) enhanced VGA standards with a means of identifying a monitor's capabilities over the interface cable. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 04:46:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478EF16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:46:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA16643D1F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 04:46:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 14990 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2005 04:46:55 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.6?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp6.knology.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 04:46:55 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 23:46:24 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:46:57 -0000 On Jun 7, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > >> Think possibly I didn't speak clearly enough. Apple is not >> *adding* commodity-ness to their product line. Thinking about it >> I'd bet part of the deal with Intel is a special crypto block or >> similar in the CPU uniquely identifying it as an Apple Blessed >> CPU. Apple does this very thing with disk drives. Originally >> Apple SCSI drivers would only format and configure Apple-blessed >> drives. Currently the same thing holds true for internal CD/DVD >> drives. But put the same non-Apple drive on Firewire and MacOS is >> happy with it. >> > > You must be dealing with an older "originally" than I. I've > replaced the 40MB HD in an SE/30 with a 700-oddMB IBM one from a PS/ > 2 with no issues. Ditto for a pair of uh... *goes and looks* IIci > macs. Are we talking way back when Apple didn't use standard > SCSI-1 (Which, I think is because there was no formal standard)? > May as well complain that you couldn't replace the "non-standard" > 800k floppy with a "standard" 720k one. No, "Apple SC Setup" would not do a non-Apple SCSI drive. This might have changed with MacOS 9. MacOS X has never complained about any IDE HD I have tried. As for "standard SCSI" there were a lot of things being done by everyone back then which was questionable. "Blind reads" for one. A number of companies made a good living making and supporting 3rd party Macintosh SCSI drivers. As varied as the hardware compliance was back then it was very wise of Apple not to stick their neck out for hard drives they did not sell. Recently I put a Sony CD-RW in a G4-400 running MacOS X 10.2.x. To use Apple's drivers I had to hack out the name of an Apple product in a file and substitute the ID string the Sony answered with. Would have to do the same thing if one purchased a non-Apple Pioneer DVD-RW drive even with the latest OS. I don't know why, or make apologies for Apple but it might have something to do with the reason FreeBSD does not enable DMA on ATAPI by default: ATA(4) says: Unknown ATAPI devices are initialized to DMA mode if the hw.ata.atapi_dma tunable is set to 1 and they support at least UDMA33 transfers. Other- wise they are set to PIO mode because severe DMA problems are common even if the device capabilities indicate support. You can always try to set DMA mode on an ATAPI device using atacontrol(8), but be aware that your hardware might not support it and can potentially hang the entire system causing data loss. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 06:11:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B098D16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:11:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav03.sasknet.sk.ca (misav03.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.164]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C03943D48 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 06:11:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from thyme.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.198]) by misav03 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:11:37 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (hssx-yktn-59-202.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by thyme.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHR00A9C57C3N@thyme.sasktel.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:11:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:06:20 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: To: David Kelly Message-id: <42A68ADC.9040900@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 06:11:38 -0000 David Kelly wrote: > > On Jun 7, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > >> David Kelly wrote: >> >> >>> Think possibly I didn't speak clearly enough. Apple is not >>> *adding* commodity-ness to their product line. Thinking about it >>> I'd bet part of the deal with Intel is a special crypto block or >>> similar in the CPU uniquely identifying it as an Apple Blessed >>> CPU. Apple does this very thing with disk drives. Originally Apple >>> SCSI drivers would only format and configure Apple-blessed drives. >>> Currently the same thing holds true for internal CD/DVD drives. >>> But put the same non-Apple drive on Firewire and MacOS is happy >>> with it. >>> >> >> You must be dealing with an older "originally" than I. I've >> replaced the 40MB HD in an SE/30 with a 700-oddMB IBM one from a PS/ >> 2 with no issues. Ditto for a pair of uh... *goes and looks* IIci >> macs. Are we talking way back when Apple didn't use standard SCSI-1 >> (Which, I think is because there was no formal standard)? May as >> well complain that you couldn't replace the "non-standard" 800k >> floppy with a "standard" 720k one. > > > No, "Apple SC Setup" would not do a non-Apple SCSI drive. This might > have changed with MacOS 9. MacOS X has never complained about any IDE > HD I have tried. I never had a problem and was using either System 6 or System 7 (Never could justify shelling out for an OS for them) I don't remember *exactly* how I did it, but since they didn't have Internet connectivity at the time, nor a modem, I must have used stuff that came with the system. Also, I don't remember any difficulties at all. Not to say I didn't have any at all, this was years ago, but since this was among the very first things I ever did with my very own Mac, I believe I would remember having issues such as "cannot partition the drive". The larger SCSI HDs still persist in being the only drive in those systems. I also remember at work having gobs of external SCSI HDs hanging off of almost every Mac... very few of which had the Apple of happiness on the front. I suppose if I got *really* curious, I could fire 'em up and take a peek. I doubt I will though. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 08:54:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2593416A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:54:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8487743D1D for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:54:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (pahevu@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j588s711015798 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:54:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j588s74m015797; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:54:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:54:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200506080854.j588s74m015797@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.5.4-20000523 ("1959") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-RELEASE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: filesystems not properly unmounted [OT] X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:54:11 -0000 [Quoting fixed.] Ronald Klop wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > Yuval Levy wrote: > > > Which brings me back to the topic of this thread: is there anybody out > > > there with the skills to cleanly solve this shameful situation in which > > > rebooting FreeBSD results in unclean mounting of ext2 (and potentially > > > other) volumes? > > > > A umount command in rc.shutdown should be a feasible > > work-around. > > > > Fixing the driver is probably not a high-priority, because > > not many users are affected by the problem, I guess. > > (But then again: It's open source, so you can try to fix > > it yourself.) > > Did you guys already unmount your filesystem? The point is that it should not be necessary to explicitly unmount the filesystem. Upon shutdown, all UFS filesystems are unmounted automatically by the kernel (even if they're not mentioned in /etc/fstab). However, that doesn't apply to ext2 filesystems. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co KG, Oettingenstr. 2, 80538 München Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 10:22:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCE616A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:22:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx.go2.pl [193.17.41.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A4643D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:22:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.179] (dbh179.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FA8137695 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:21:27 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:22:19 -0000 hi to all, I'm trying to make a headless server of my old Celeron 366 box and I've got some problems with it. I know that in BIOS the Halt On option (Award Bios) needs to be set to No Errors, but still without the monitor the box doesn't start (it doesn't give the "short beep"). The keyboard and mouse are connected. The mainboard is Acorp 6LX87 and connected to an AT Power supply. The video card is nVidia Riva TNT 16MB. any sugestions..? -- Przemys³aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 10:26:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B1C16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:26:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 80B5F43D48 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:26:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 25110 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2005 10:26:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 10:26:03 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050608102603.EDCW1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:26:03 +0800 Message-ID: <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:25:44 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> In-Reply-To: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:26:07 -0000 Hi, Przemys³aw Nowaczyk wrote: > hi to all, > I'm trying to make a headless server of my old Celeron 366 box and I've > got some problems with it. I know that in BIOS the Halt On option (Award > Bios) needs to be set to No Errors, but still without the monitor the > box doesn't start (it doesn't give the "short beep"). The keyboard and > mouse are connected. The mainboard is Acorp 6LX87 and connected to an AT > Power supply. The video card is nVidia Riva TNT 16MB. > any sugestions..? > Connect a monitor to see what happens. It should work as you described it. Could it be that halt on no errors means that the machines halts even if there are not errors? English is a difficult language, even for BIOS programmers. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 10:48:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136EF16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:48:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx.go2.pl [193.17.41.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B650A43D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:48:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.179] (dbh179.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEAD1376EC for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:48:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:47:53 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:48:47 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > Connect a monitor to see what happens. > > It should work as you described it. > > Could it be that halt on no errors means that the machines halts even if > there are not errors? > > English is a difficult language, even for BIOS programmers. > > Erich > when the monitor is connected the box runs fine.. the problem is when I want to turn it on without the monitor.. i'll check the bios settings again maybe as You said it should be the other way.. -- Przemys³aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 10:52:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E7516A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:52:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from solskogen@carebears.mine.nu) Received: from mail47.e.nsc.no (mail47.e.nsc.no [193.213.115.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E663343D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:52:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from solskogen@carebears.mine.nu) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (062249172002.customer.alfanett.no [62.249.172.2]) by mail47.nsc.no (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j58AqlRZ002289; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) by carebears.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371C627E5C8; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:53:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from carebears.mine.nu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tenderheart.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90099-05; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:52:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (localhost.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) by carebears.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79ED27E5C7; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:52:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 231.98.121.148.in-addr.arpa ([148.121.98.231]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user solskogen); by carebears.mine.nu with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:52:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <1233.148.121.98.231.1118227978.squirrel@148.121.98.231> In-Reply-To: <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:52:58 +0200 (CEST) From: "Christer Solskogen" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis at tenderheart.carebears.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:52:50 -0000 On Wed, June 8, 2005 12:47, Przemys³aw Nowaczyk said: > when the monitor is connected the box runs fine.. the problem is when I > want to turn it on without the monitor.. > i'll check the bios settings again maybe as You said it should be the > other way.. > Just a wild shot in the dark; Try upgradring the bios, if there is a newer one outthere. -- cso From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 10:56:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCE116A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:56:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2593F43D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:56:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (qxabuf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58AuMUB019847 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:56:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j58AuMlR019846; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:56:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:56:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200506081056.j58AuMlR019846@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.5.4-20000523 ("1959") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-RELEASE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:56:24 -0000 Przemys?aw Nowaczyk wrote: > I'm trying to make a headless server of my old Celeron 366 box and I've > got some problems with it. I know that in BIOS the Halt On option (Award > Bios) needs to be set to No Errors, It should be sufficient to set that option to "All, except keyboard". > but still without the monitor the > box doesn't start (it doesn't give the "short beep"). The keyboard and > mouse are connected. The mainboard is Acorp 6LX87 and connected to an AT > Power supply. The video card is nVidia Riva TNT 16MB. > any sugestions..? There are several things to try. 1. If you connect a monitor, does it boot? (Maybe the problem is somewhere else.) 2. What if you only connect a monitor plug or cable, but no actual monitor? 3. What if you remove the graphics card? 4. Some BIOS setups have an option to select the type of graphics card (VGA, CGA, monochrome). If your BIOS supports it, set that option to "none". Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co KG, Oettingenstr. 2, 80538 München Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 11:02:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF4BA16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:02:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DCC43D58 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:02:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (inaxyd@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58B222G019956 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:02:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j58B22jg019955; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:02:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:02:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200506081102.j58B22jg019955@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200506081056.j58AuMlR019846@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.5.4-20000523 ("1959") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-RELEASE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:02:04 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > 2. What if you only connect a monitor plug or cable, but > no actual monitor? I forgot to mention: A standard 15pin VGA connector has three ID pins (11, 12 and 4, I think). If all else fails, it might help to connect some or all of them to ground. However, be very careful with this. Don't complain to me if you fry your hardware. :-) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co KG, Oettingenstr. 2, 80538 München Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. Passwords are like underwear. You don't share them, you don't hang them on your monitor or under your keyboard, you don't email them, or put them on a web site, and you must change them very often. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 11:17:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9817016A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:17:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5FBE43D1D for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:17:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 28667 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2005 11:17:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 11:17:40 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050608111739.JNBT1130.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:17:39 +0800 Message-ID: <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:17:20 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> In-Reply-To: <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:17:42 -0000 Hi, Przemys³aw Nowaczyk wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: > >> Hi, >> Connect a monitor to see what happens. >> >> It should work as you described it. >> >> Could it be that halt on no errors means that the machines halts even >> if there are not errors? >> >> English is a difficult language, even for BIOS programmers. >> >> Erich >> > when the monitor is connected the box runs fine.. the problem is when I > want to turn it on without the monitor.. > i'll check the bios settings again maybe as You said it should be the > other way.. > I have a system like this next door running. I did not even change the BIOS settings. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 12:01:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3011516A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:01:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE1B443D55 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:01:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 22664 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2005 12:01:00 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.6?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp1.knology.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 12:01:00 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <42A68ADC.9040900@sasktel.net> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> <42A68ADC.9040900@sasktel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5FB79EC1-5314-46F4-AF48-C65D5D90E7AF@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:00:28 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:01:02 -0000 On Jun 8, 2005, at 1:06 AM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > David Kelly wrote: >> >> No, "Apple SC Setup" would not do a non-Apple SCSI drive. This >> might have changed with MacOS 9. MacOS X has never complained >> about any IDE HD I have tried. >> > > I never had a problem and was using either System 6 or System 7 > (Never could justify shelling out for an OS for them) > I don't remember *exactly* how I did it, but since they didn't have > Internet connectivity at the time, nor a modem, I must have used > stuff that came with the system. Also, I don't remember any > difficulties at all. Not to say I didn't have any at all, this was > years ago, but since this was among the very first things I ever > did with my very own Mac, I believe I would remember having issues > such as "cannot partition the drive". The larger SCSI HDs still > persist in being the only drive in those systems. I also remember > at work having gobs of external SCSI HDs hanging off of almost > every Mac... very few of which had the Apple of happiness on the > front. > I suppose if I got *really* curious, I could fire 'em up and take a > peek. I doubt I will though. 3rd party SCSI hard drives for the Mac almost always came pre- formatted. And always with a 3rd party driver on floppy unless one purchased a raw drive. At most set the SCSI ID and termination and one was up and running. A simple "Get Info" on the drive icon will list the driver being used. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 12:09:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8539916A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:09:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F271743D55 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:09:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: (qmail 8957 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2005 12:09:29 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.6?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 12:09:29 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1620633C-C528-4F8D-A35E-C13A13884D64@hiwaay.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 07:08:55 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 12:09:31 -0000 On Jun 7, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > Adaptec doesn't have the worlds best reputation for allowing people > to write drivers (or even for writing non-buggy firmware) but I > seem to recall that the Macs that ship with SCSI support use an > Adaptec chipset... oh, on looking, it appears that the IIci uses > an NCR SCSI chipset... specifically, the 5380 which was found on > many commodity PC SCSI cards too. I don't recall Apple ever using Adaptec chips. Their first ethernet card (NuBus) was done by 3-Com and so marked. Recently (several years ago) Apple offered a high end Atto SCSI card with new systems. Power Computing was the one who shipped possibly the world's first Adaptec 2930's, years before a much improved 2930 hit the boxed shelves. IIRC the first PowerPC Macs had two SCSI busses, one was NCR and the other was a combo AMD Lance ethernet and SCSI. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 13:57:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D6C16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:57:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx.go2.pl [193.17.41.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7653843D53 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:57:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D6F137853 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:57:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:56:11 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:57:03 -0000 okey.. the status for now is: - I have the newest version of Bios v.4.51PG 2B for this motherboard, - I've tried all combinations with the Halt On option (no solvation), - Even without the video card the box doesn't start, - in my bios there's no No Video option, - Even when only the cable of the monitor is plugged it doesn't start, - I won't try to fry my PC :P - so I've run out of ideas.. but thank You All for help :) and feel free to share more ideas :) -- Przemys³aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 14:14:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56C616A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:14:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 063DA43D48 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:14:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 1518 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2005 14:14:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell2.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.192) by sarajevo with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 14:14:44 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050608141443.JZGE1130.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:14:43 +0800 Message-ID: <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:14:22 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> In-Reply-To: <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:14:46 -0000 Hi, Przemys³aw Nowaczyk wrote: > okey.. the status for now is: > - I have the newest version of Bios v.4.51PG 2B for this motherboard, > - I've tried all combinations with the Halt On option (no solvation), > - Even without the video card the box doesn't start, > - in my bios there's no No Video option, > - Even when only the cable of the monitor is plugged it doesn't start, > - I won't try to fry my PC :P > - so I've run out of ideas.. > but thank You All for help :) and feel free to share more ideas :) > You are saying that the machine boots with the monitor on but does not when you switch the monitor off? Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 14:20:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612AF16A41F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:20:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx.go2.pl [193.17.41.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDBD43D53 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:20:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D941378AB; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:20:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:19:30 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: oceanare@pacific.net.sg References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:20:22 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Przemys³aw Nowaczyk wrote: > >> okey.. the status for now is: >> - I have the newest version of Bios v.4.51PG 2B for this motherboard, >> - I've tried all combinations with the Halt On option (no solvation), >> - Even without the video card the box doesn't start, >> - in my bios there's no No Video option, >> - Even when only the cable of the monitor is plugged it doesn't start, >> - I won't try to fry my PC :P >> - so I've run out of ideas.. >> but thank You All for help :) and feel free to share more ideas :) >> > You are saying that the machine boots with the monitor on but does not > when you switch the monitor off? > > Erich > > well to be exact, the situation looks like this: when the monitor is plugged into the box (it doesn't matter wheather it's on or off) everything runs fine (there's the standard "short beep" and the machine boots normaly). But when the monitor isn't plugged, the machine doesn't start (there's no beep) and the OS isn't loaded. -- Przemys³aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 14:30:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4F116A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:30:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx.go2.pl [193.17.41.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CE343D4C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:30:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CC0137707; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:30:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:29:09 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgTm93YWN6eWs=?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Wolfskill References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In-Reply-To: <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:30:03 -0000 David Wolfskill wrote: > On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 04:19:30PM +0200, Przemys?aw Nowaczyk wrote: > >>... > > >>well to be exact, the situation looks like this: when the monitor is >>plugged into the box (it doesn't matter wheather it's on or off) >>everything runs fine (there's the standard "short beep" and the machine >>boots normaly). But when the monitor isn't plugged, the machine doesn't >>start (there's no beep) and the OS isn't loaded. > > > What is displayed on the monitor if you boot the machine with the > monitor disconnected, then after you are reasonably sure that the > failure has manifested itself, you plug the monitor in (and turn it on)? > > Peace, > david nothing.. the screen is black and the power indicator is orange (when the monitor is on it's green).. the monitor is just turned off and I can't change it.. -- PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 14:47:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D59816A420 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:47:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx2.go2.pl [193.17.41.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB5243D1D for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:47:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70B03400DE; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:47:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:46:29 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgTm93YWN6eWs=?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Wolfskill References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In-Reply-To: <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:47:20 -0000 David Wolfskill wrote: > > I'm no expert on PC hardware, but that sounds as if the BIOS is > deliberately probing the monitor, and if it finds "no monitor," it is > not only refusing to boot, but refusing to drive the video card. > > That seems perverse in the extreme. > > And makes that board ill-suited for the taks at hand (headless server). > > I don't know the situation where you are, but my inclination at this > point would be to "cut my losses" and stop trying to make it work for > that function. And acquire a different system (or system board) for the > function. > > Peace, > david Well.. I didn't thought about this box as a top priority server so as You say I'll propablly leave it as is.. but it's a shame that a good and "healthy" box will stay in the corner and collect dust :P I'm wondering only if it's posiblle that it's the power supply fault (it's an AT Power Supply).. thanks, -- PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 14:55:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35A916A41F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:55:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3A2743D1D for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:55:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 10292 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2005 14:55:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 8 Jun 2005 14:55:08 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050608145508.EWPA1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:55:08 +0800 Message-ID: <42A706B6.5010807@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:54:46 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> In-Reply-To: <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:55:11 -0000 Hi, Przemys³aw Nowaczyk wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > well to be exact, the situation looks like this: when the monitor is > plugged into the box (it doesn't matter wheather it's on or off) > everything runs fine (there's the standard "short beep" and the machine > boots normaly). But when the monitor isn't plugged, the machine doesn't > start (there's no beep) and the OS isn't loaded. > Did you try to run it with the cable plugged in but no monitor at the other end? Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 14:58:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06FC16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:58:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx2.go2.pl [193.17.41.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6721B43D4C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:58:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDB934007F; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A70762.6000502@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:57:38 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <42A706B6.5010807@pacific.net.sg> In-Reply-To: <42A706B6.5010807@pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:58:28 -0000 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > Przemys³aw Nowaczyk wrote: > >> Erich Dollansky wrote: >> >> well to be exact, the situation looks like this: when the monitor is >> plugged into the box (it doesn't matter wheather it's on or off) >> everything runs fine (there's the standard "short beep" and the >> machine boots normaly). But when the monitor isn't plugged, the >> machine doesn't start (there's no beep) and the OS isn't loaded. >> > Did you try to run it with the cable plugged in but no monitor at the > other end? > > Erich > > yes.. it didn't start :( -- Przemys³aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 15:19:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853BF16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:19:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33FD43D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:19:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (vmzsxe@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58FJfdW030695 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:19:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j58FJfDJ030694; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:19:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:19:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200506081519.j58FJfDJ030694@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <42A70762.6000502@o2.pl> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.5.4-20000523 ("1959") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-RELEASE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:19:44 -0000 Przemys?aw Nowaczyk wrote: > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Did you try to run it with the cable plugged in but no monitor at the > > other end? > > yes.. it didn't start :( Is that a VGA-to-VGA cable, or a VGA-to-RGB/coax cable? There's a slight chance that the latter might work better, because it should terminate the ID pins on the VGA side. Other than that, I agree with Erich that this mainboard is particularly perverse and not the right choice for a head- less server. You should get a better mainboard. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co KG, Oettingenstr. 2, 80538 München Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead." -- RFC 1925 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 15:26:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBF916A41F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:26:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx2.go2.pl [193.17.41.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFEB43D55 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:26:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8536340088 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:26:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A70E02.1050902@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:25:54 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgTm93YWN6eWs=?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200506081519.j58FJfDJ030694@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200506081519.j58FJfDJ030694@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:26:46 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > Przemys?aw Nowaczyk wrote: > > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > Did you try to run it with the cable plugged in but no monitor at the > > > other end? > > > > yes.. it didn't start :( > > Is that a VGA-to-VGA cable, or a VGA-to-RGB/coax cable? > > There's a slight chance that the latter might work better, > because it should terminate the ID pins on the VGA side. > > Other than that, I agree with Erich that this mainboard is > particularly perverse and not the right choice for a head- > less server. You should get a better mainboard. > > Best regards > Oliver > it's a VGA-to-VGA cable.. I suppose that You're right.. it's a VERY perverse mainboard.. I just thought that since it stays in the corner I could use it for something interesting but as we can see that wasn't exaclly a good idea :P thanks for help, -- PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 15:27:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9034616A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:27:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1539443D58 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:27:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] ([69.27.157.226]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j58FOjBo055214; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:24:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <42A70D81.1090907@daleco.biz> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:23:45 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050607 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgTm93YWN6eWs=?= References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> In-Reply-To: <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, David Wolfskill Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:27:02 -0000 PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk wrote: > David Wolfskill wrote: > >> >> I'm no expert on PC hardware, but that sounds as if the BIOS is >> deliberately probing the monitor, and if it finds "no monitor," it is >> not only refusing to boot, but refusing to drive the video card. >> >> That seems perverse in the extreme. >> >> And makes that board ill-suited for the taks at hand (headless server). >> >> I don't know the situation where you are, but my inclination at this >> point would be to "cut my losses" and stop trying to make it work for >> that function. And acquire a different system (or system board) for the >> function. >> >> Peace, >> david > > > Well.. I didn't thought about this box as a top priority server so as You > say I'll propablly leave it as is.. but it's a shame that a good and > "healthy" > box will stay in the corner and collect dust :P > I'm wondering only if it's posiblle that it's the power supply fault > (it's an AT Power Supply).. > thanks, > My next line of inquiry would probably be the video card itself. There seem to be few references to this sort of problem out there; but the two I've seen that matched your description most closely (and they weren't THAT close, but we seem to be dealing with a relatively rare issue ) were both nVidia cards... So, if I had another old card to stick in there, I might try that first . . . HTH, Kevin Kinsey From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 15:35:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CA716A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:35:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx2.go2.pl [193.17.41.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5E043D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:35:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9CB340032; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:35:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A7100A.3070604@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:34:34 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgTm93YWN6eWs=?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Kinsey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <42A6C6A7.7040600@o2.pl> <42A6C7A8.3090404@pacific.net.sg> <42A6CCD9.5090404@o2.pl> <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> <42A70D81.1090907@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <42A70D81.1090907@daleco.biz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:35:24 -0000 Kevin Kinsey wrote: > > My next line of inquiry would probably be the video card > itself. There seem to be few references to this sort of > problem out there; but the two I've seen that matched your > description most closely (and they weren't THAT close, but > we seem to be dealing with a relatively rare issue ) were > both nVidia cards... > > So, if I had another old card to stick in there, I might try > that first . . . > > HTH, > > Kevin Kinsey > you're right but I don't have anything else.. nor have my friends.. I think that I'll just have to leave it as is.. :( -- PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 15:40:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6929316A421 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:40:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx2.go2.pl [193.17.41.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC35B43D1F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 15:40:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCD9340076; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:40:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A71151.7050900@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:40:01 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?UHJ6ZW15c8WCYXcgTm93YWN6eWs=?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Wolfskill References: <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> <42A70D81.1090907@daleco.biz> <42A7100A.3070604@o2.pl> <20050608153648.GD499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In-Reply-To: <20050608153648.GD499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:40:51 -0000 David Wolfskill wrote: > Well, you could try pulling th evideo card out of the machine, and see > if it will boot that way.... > > Long shot, but if it works.... :-} > > Peace, > david I've tried that too. The box beeps 1 long and 3 short ones.. as far as I know it 'tells' that way that it cannot be run without a video card.. hehe, stupid mainboard :P -- PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 16:25:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24D616A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:25:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from poczta.o2.pl (mx2.go2.pl [193.17.41.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579C043D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:25:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from p_nowaczyk@o2.pl) Received: from [83.23.33.128] (dbh128.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.23.33.128]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9073400B3 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:25:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42A71BDF.3030907@o2.pl> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:25:03 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Przemys=B3aw_Nowaczyk?= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> <42A70D81.1090907@daleco.biz> <42A7100A.3070604@o2.pl> <20050608153648.GD499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A71151.7050900@o2.pl> <20050608154214.GE499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In-Reply-To: <20050608154214.GE499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:25:53 -0000 well, I think that's it.. I would like to thank All of those who had and shared ideas about my box.. All of You were very helpfull.. thank You.. The conclusion about the topic is that I just have a very perverse motherboard and probablly it'll stay that way till its last days :P hehe.. Once again thank You All :) -- Przemys³aw Nowaczyk | e-mail: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl IT student @ | GG UIN: #1299898 Poznan University of Technology | RLU: #293754 PLD/Slackware From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 18:07:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3159D16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:07:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bq510@scn.org) Received: from scn4.scn.org (scn4.scn.org [66.212.64.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26C543D1F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:07:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bq510@scn.org) Received: from filter1.kcls.org (scn4 [66.212.64.197]) by scn4.scn.org (8.9.1-20031009/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA13529; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200506081758.KAA13529@scn4.scn.org> To: p_nowaczyk@o2.pl From: bq510@scn.org Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:58:25 +0000 X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan v2.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:07:06 -0000 > well to be exact, the situation looks like this: when the > monitor is plugged into the box (it doesn't matter wheather > it's on or off) everything runs fine (there's the > standard "short beep" and the machine boots normaly). I think your solution lies there. With the thing running OK with the monitor turned off, measure the voltages on the cable's lines and then wire up a dummy cable (or just connector) to simulate the turned-off monitor. If your lucky (I I suspect you will be), you'll just need to wire a pin or two to ground, but maybe to 5 volts. You can probably get access to the "pins" with the case open somewhere between the real pins and the motherboard. Good luck. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 8 21:24:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39CC16A41C for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:24:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9761143D49 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:24:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:24:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:24:43 -0000 On 07-Jun-05 My Homeland Security "observers" reported that Erich Dollansky said: > Hi, > > Claus Guttesen wrote: >> Hi. >> >> I know this is a bit off-topic but it will probably have some impact > > Isn't chat the better list for this? > >> on the ongoing work with FreeBSD. As most know by now Apple will base >> it's next-generation hardware on the x86-architecture moving away from >> the PowerPC. It seems a shame that they could not have at least gone with AMD processors instead of Intel. No matter how closely they are tied to IBM. > What is still very unclear is the architecture the machines will have. I > believe they will stick with their peripherials and just change the CPU. > So, the hardware will be still Apple specific. Only the CPU will be the > same as on normal PC. Could this be a move by Apple to move away from building hardware at all? If they use intel chips it seems logical it will have/suffer from the same periferal needs as normal PCs. Thus could OS XI run on all hardware? Thus making it easier for people to move to Apple OS with their spare PC's thus perhaps (hopefully for apple) increasing their OS share. I seem to remember it was suggested long ago that apple get out of the hardware business and Jobs rejected that. Perhaps he has come around? This would make an interesting first step to that. Or how about (the nightmare) running windows on their well built hardware? Nicole >> My hope is that Apple will take the direction away from Darwin and the > > Apple runs like a rabbit followed by a dog. You cannot predict the > direction Apple will go in the very next moment. > > Erich > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Blessed Be! | Powered by FreeBSD * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- http://www.unixgirl.com - http://www.deviantimages.com Tragically, flattery is like sex... If we don't get any from others, we wind up giving it to ourselves --Me The Large Print Giveth And The Small Print Taketh Away -- Anon Support Your Local Chinese Communist Country Shop At Walmart -- Me From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 00:37:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056F816A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:37:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav08.sasknet.sk.ca (misav08.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2B143D1F for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:37:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from oregano.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.197]) by misav08 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:37:02 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (hssx-yktn-59-202.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by oregano.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHS00IUCKDOZQ@oregano.sasktel.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:37:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:31:34 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: <1620633C-C528-4F8D-A35E-C13A13884D64@hiwaay.net> To: David Kelly Message-id: <42A78DE6.8050802@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> <1620633C-C528-4F8D-A35E-C13A13884D64@hiwaay.net> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:37:05 -0000 David Kelly wrote: >> Adaptec doesn't have the worlds best reputation for allowing people >> to write drivers (or even for writing non-buggy firmware) but I seem >> to recall that the Macs that ship with SCSI support use an Adaptec >> chipset... oh, on looking, it appears that the IIci uses an NCR >> SCSI chipset... specifically, the 5380 which was found on many >> commodity PC SCSI cards too. > > > I don't recall Apple ever using Adaptec chips. Their first ethernet > card (NuBus) was done by 3-Com and so marked. Recently (several years > ago) Apple offered a high end Atto SCSI card with new systems. Power > Computing was the one who shipped possibly the world's first Adaptec > 2930's, years before a much improved 2930 hit the boxed shelves. > > IIRC the first PowerPC Macs had two SCSI busses, one was NCR and the > other was a combo AMD Lance ethernet and SCSI. Yeah, looks like I was mistaken on that point... I wonder where I saw an Adaptec chip and was surprised then... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 00:39:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A56C16A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:39:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav02.sasknet.sk.ca (misav02.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF62B43D48 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:39:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from oregano.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.197]) by misav02 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:39:14 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (hssx-yktn-59-202.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by oregano.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHS00I8CKHCZQ@oregano.sasktel.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:39:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:33:45 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: <5FB79EC1-5314-46F4-AF48-C65D5D90E7AF@HiWAAY.net> To: David Kelly Message-id: <42A78E69.9040401@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <42A4FD3F.70407@pacific.net.sg> <44y89mb1e0.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <20050607175303.GA96525@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> <42A62D8D.2020100@digitalarcadia.net> <30399E44-07C0-4F3B-9B1C-9F4B2E020E9C@HiWAAY.net> <42A6617A.5010908@sasktel.net> <42A68ADC.9040900@sasktel.net> <5FB79EC1-5314-46F4-AF48-C65D5D90E7AF@HiWAAY.net> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 00:39:16 -0000 David Kelly wrote: >>> >>> No, "Apple SC Setup" would not do a non-Apple SCSI drive. This >>> might have changed with MacOS 9. MacOS X has never complained >>> about any IDE HD I have tried. >>> >> >> I never had a problem and was using either System 6 or System 7 >> (Never could justify shelling out for an OS for them) >> I don't remember *exactly* how I did it, but since they didn't have >> Internet connectivity at the time, nor a modem, I must have used >> stuff that came with the system. Also, I don't remember any >> difficulties at all. Not to say I didn't have any at all, this was >> years ago, but since this was among the very first things I ever did >> with my very own Mac, I believe I would remember having issues such >> as "cannot partition the drive". The larger SCSI HDs still persist >> in being the only drive in those systems. I also remember at work >> having gobs of external SCSI HDs hanging off of almost every Mac... >> very few of which had the Apple of happiness on the front. >> I suppose if I got *really* curious, I could fire 'em up and take a >> peek. I doubt I will though. > > David Kelly wrote: > > 3rd party SCSI hard drives for the Mac almost always came pre- > formatted. And always with a 3rd party driver on floppy unless one > purchased a raw drive. At most set the SCSI ID and termination and > one was up and running. > > A simple "Get Info" on the drive icon will list the driver being used. Damn, I think I'm starting to get intrigued. I *know* the drive came out of an IBM PS/2 Model 8x or 9x... I think I'll take a peek in the next day or two. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 02:34:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100B816A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:34:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from sarajevo.pacific.net.sg (sarajevo.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6140943D4C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:34:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 24731 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2005 02:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by sarajevo with SMTP; 9 Jun 2005 02:34:44 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050609023443.GHBB1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:34:43 +0800 Message-ID: <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 10:34:14 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicole References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> In-Reply-To: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 02:34:47 -0000 Hi, Nicole wrote: > On 07-Jun-05 My Homeland Security "observers" reported that Erich Dollansky > said: > Yeah, Homeland Security. This gives NSA a lot of e-mails to scan. >>Claus Guttesen wrote: > > It seems a shame that they could not have at least gone with AMD processors > instead of Intel. No matter how closely they are tied to IBM. > Intel has a strong point where Apple will start: Pentium M. It would be real dumb not to start with machines have this CPU in there as Apple has none to compete with it. There is a but, a huge but. Apple told the world it has to be 64 bits. So, even if Apple takes Intel, but with the 64 bits, AMD gets its share out of the deal via license fees. > > Could this be a move by Apple to move away from building hardware at all? Do you know of a single Apple product not based on hadware which is a success? > If they use intel chips it seems logical it will have/suffer from the same > periferal needs as normal PCs. Thus could OS XI run on all hardware? Thus Why? Apple has the chance now to build a machine without all the problems a PC has. If Apple is clever, they will build a well designed machine, running with a x86 CPU but without any support for things earlier known as 8259, 8253 plus the completely screwed DMA. Apple will need different chipsets to connect the PCI, USB ... devices to the CPU which will make the machine different. As there is FreeBSD port to the PowerPC and its peripherals, this machine will make a very interesting target for FreeBSD: combine the x86 code base with the PowerPC drivers and get a real hot machine. At least for now, there is a dream. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 05:35:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE15816A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:35:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav03.sasknet.sk.ca (misav03.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.164]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF6E43D1D for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 05:35:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from thyme.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.198]) by misav03 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:35:33 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (hssx-yktn-59-202.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by thyme.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHS00LCKY78AB@thyme.sasktel.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:35:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 23:30:03 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> To: Erich Dollansky Message-id: <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 05:35:35 -0000 > As there is FreeBSD port to the PowerPC and its peripherals, this > machine will make a very interesting target for FreeBSD: combine the > x86 code base with the PowerPC drivers and get a real hot machine. The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 13:32:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9040A16A437 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:32:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net (s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net [72.254.0.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B9F643D1F for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:32:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net ([127.0.0.1]) by s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2005060906322924176 ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 06:32:29 -0700 Received: from [10.0.1.5] ([10.1.191.21]) by s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 06:32:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200506022131.05617.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200506022131.05617.josh@tcbug.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3c01145fce0e538d12cb281c31e497ac@FreeBSD.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Baldwin Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:16:28 -0700 To: Josh Paetzel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual P-pro motherboard, cpus, fans and RAM X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:32:29 -0000 On Jun 2, 2005, at 7:31 PM, Josh Paetzel wrote: > I have an intel PR440FX dual socket 8 motherboard here populated with > 2x 200mhz 512K cache Pentium Pro CPUs and 320 megs of RAM. It has > onboard wide SCSI and I have a pair of 4.3 gig drives for it + the > cable. Also has the typical 2x IDE channels and onboard Intel 10/100 > LAN. It's ATX form factor. > > I'd like to find a home for it (preferably for a developer to use to > work on SMP) > > Email me if you have any questions. Does FreeBSD 5.x work ok on it? Either way I'd really appreciate a dmesg and any feedback on how it works. For example, does a kernel that includes 'device apic' but not 'options SMP' work ok as well? Thanks. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 14:27:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6822116A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:27:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net (s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net [72.254.0.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 42BC943D55 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:27:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net ([127.0.0.1]) by s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2005060907274924980 ; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 07:27:49 -0700 Received: from [10.0.1.5] ([10.1.191.21]) by s-utl01-sjpop.stsn.net; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:27:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Baldwin Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:27:48 -0700 To: Stephen Hurd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:27:57 -0000 On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > >> As there is FreeBSD port to the PowerPC and its peripherals, this >> machine will make a very interesting target for FreeBSD: combine the >> x86 code base with the PowerPC drivers and get a real hot machine. > > The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under > FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux, svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also includes mach so there would have to be a lot of emulation to support that. OS X also tends to define its interface not at the kernel syscall level but at the library API level (from what I have heard), which means that it might require having custom versions of the base system frameworks ala Wine which would be an enormous amount of work. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 14:40:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 863FF16A41C; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:40:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (73.Red-213-97-200.pooles.rima-tde.net [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56F943D1D; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 14:40:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org) Received: from scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org (scienide.energyhq.es.eu.org [192.168.100.1]) by mindfields.energyhq.es.eu.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 08C7935C42; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:40:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 16:38:50 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: John Baldwin Message-Id: <20050609163850.07be7454.flynn@energyhq.es.eu.org> In-Reply-To: <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 1.9.12 (GTK+ 2.6.4; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA1"; boundary="Signature=_Thu__9_Jun_2005_16_38_50_+0200_AnZsMHJ37P9od1EL" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, oceanare@pacific.net.sg, shurd@sasktel.net Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 14:40:19 -0000 --Signature=_Thu__9_Jun_2005_16_38_50_+0200_AnZsMHJ37P9od1EL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 07:27:48 -0700 John Baldwin wrote: > > The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under=20 > > FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. >=20 > I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux,=20 > svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also=20 > includes mach so there would have to be a lot of emulation to support=20 > that. OS X also tends to define its interface not at the kernel=20 > syscall level but at the library API level (from what I have heard),=20 > which means that it might require having custom versions of the base=20 > system frameworks ala Wine which would be an enormous amount of work. The NetBSD people are working on it: http://hcpnet.free.fr/applebsd.html Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 --Signature=_Thu__9_Jun_2005_16_38_50_+0200_AnZsMHJ37P9od1EL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFCqFR9nLctrNyFFPERAufxAKDOEjcRkEpL2M7u+iUYmLfFvdI9TgCguqYI bTzH0dLUM/SkqmEmPcrXGn8= =dERZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Thu__9_Jun_2005_16_38_50_+0200_AnZsMHJ37P9od1EL-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 18:27:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C4516A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:27:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from imap.sd73.bc.ca (smtp.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.149]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495E343D4C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:27:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C213118CCE5 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imap.sd73.bc.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailtest.sd73.bc.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 71090-03 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s9.sbo (s9.sbo [192.168.0.9]) by imap.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC1C18CCE3 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Freddie Cash Organization: School District 73 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:26:56 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8 References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> In-Reply-To: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091126.57072.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at sd73.bc.ca Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:27:03 -0000 On June 8, 2005 02:24 pm, Nicole wrote: > On 07-Jun-05 My Homeland Security "observers" reported that Erich > Dollansky said: > > Claus Guttesen wrote: > >> on the ongoing work with FreeBSD. As most know by now Apple will base > >> it's next-generation hardware on the x86-architecture moving away > >> from the PowerPC. > It seems a shame that they could not have at least gone with AMD > processors instead of Intel. No matter how closely they are tied to IBM. Apple has always been about the platform. They like to control as much of the computing experience as possible. In a way, it makes sense to go with Intel, as Intel is on way to "platformisation", where they don't just sell CPUs, but a CPU + chipset + I/O (wireless, ethernet, audio, video) in a single package. Look at the Centrino branding, and how they want to bring something similar over to the desktop. So, Apple could start with laptops based around some form of Centrino. That way, they only have 1 source for CPU/chipset/IO needs, and can make sure that their software definitely works on that hardware. Limit the choices, improve the software experience. Will the go with the existing Centrino/PentiumM that is only 32-bit? Maybe, since their existing laptops (G4-based) are 32-bit. Or, will Intel be ready with the next Centrino/PentiumM that includes EM64T support by the time Apple wants to release the first laptop? Who knows, there's still a year before the first Apple computer with Intel Inside is available. If they went with AMD processors, then they would have to either build or find someone to build a chipset. Then they would have to either build or find someone to build a motherboard around that. And so on. Too many partners, too many variables, too many people to wait for. Intel can whip up everything they need, which means they can focus on the software. It's not like Intel is going to up and disappear next year. :) Ars Technica has a couple of very intriguing articles on this subject, and they make a lot of sense. -- Freddie Cash, CLCP CNCP Network Support / Helpdesk School District 73 (250) 377-4357 fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 18:35:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE13516A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:35:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E70643D53 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:35:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1DgRrq-0002pN-00; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:35:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:35:10 -0000 On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, John Baldwin wrote: > > The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under > > FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. > > I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux, > svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also Or Mac OS X moves to use the FreeBSD kernel. It seems like I have heard this before. What kernel-level Mac OS X/Darwin features does FreeBSD lack? Its file system? File bundles? Any websites that quickly list differences between features and drivers for FreeBSD and Darwin? I have to wonder if Apple internally and secretly is already testing FreeBSD to run its Mac OS X. Jeremy C. Reed Media Relations and Publishing Services http://www.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 19:44:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53DB816A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:44:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C4343D48 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:44:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1219F60F8; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:43:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032F260F5; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:43:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E1F5433C3B; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:43:57 +0200 (CEST) To: Freddie Cash References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <200506091126.57072.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:43:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200506091126.57072.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> (Freddie Cash's message of "Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:26:56 -0700") Message-ID: <86psuvxqma.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.1/5.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on tim.des.no Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:44:04 -0000 Freddie Cash writes: > If they went with AMD processors, then they would have to either > build or find someone to build a chipset. FYI, AMD makes chipsets. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 19:52:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAE016A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:52:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BF943D48 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:52:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8439360F3; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:52:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1951160F2; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:52:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E88F633C3B; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 21:52:13 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jeremy C. Reed" References: From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:52:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Jeremy C. Reed's message of "Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:35:02 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <86ll5jxq8i.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.1/5.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on tim.des.no Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:52:20 -0000 "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > Or Mac OS X moves to use the FreeBSD kernel. It seems like I have heard > this before. This simly isn't going to happen, and you are incredibly na=EFve to except that it would. It's like expecting Microsoft to switch to the OpenBSD kernel now that they have an OpenBSD-based POSIX personality running on top of their microkernel. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 19:57:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD8D16A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:57:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from imap.sd73.bc.ca (smtp.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.149]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D79F43D1D for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:57:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DA018CC31 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imap.sd73.bc.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailtest.sd73.bc.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 71512-03-11 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s9.sbo (s9.sbo [192.168.0.9]) by imap.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C10C918CC81 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Freddie Cash Organization: School District 73 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:57:11 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8 References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <200506091126.57072.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> <86psuvxqma.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86psuvxqma.fsf@xps.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506091257.11988.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at sd73.bc.ca Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:57:15 -0000 On June 9, 2005 12:43 pm, you wrote: > Freddie Cash writes: > > If they went with AMD processors, then they would have to either > > build or find someone to build a chipset. > FYI, AMD makes chipsets. Yes, and some nices ones at that, especially on the server side (our new dual-Opteron boards use AMD 8xxx chipsets). But they don't make motherboards, they don't make audio/video chipsets, they don't make ethernet chips, and they don't sell everything all nicely packaged up as a single "platform". I'm not saying that's definitely why Apple went with Intel. But it does make sense, if you think about it for a bit. Going with Intel gives Intel a place to show off their "complete platform solutions", and gives Apple a single configuration to code for. Going with AMD would require too much work on Apple's part to get everything working together, and would be a pain to certify the hardware configurations as "Designed for Apple". This way, they just say that MacOS X will only run on Centrino2 laptops, whatever the desktop equivalent of Centrino will be called, and they're done. Intel takes care of the hard parts for them. -- Freddie Cash, CLCP CNCP Network Support / Helpdesk School District 73 (250) 377-4357 fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 9 23:27:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104CF16A41C for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:27:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from salvador.pacific.net.sg (salvador.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.219]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D83A43D48 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 23:27:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 16044 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2005 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maxwell6.pacific.net.sg) (203.120.90.212) by salvador with SMTP; 9 Jun 2005 23:27:37 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.101]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050609232737.LHKH1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:27:37 +0800 Message-ID: <42A8D05C.3050404@pacific.net.sg> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 07:27:24 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <86ll5jxq8i.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86ll5jxq8i.fsf@xps.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 23:27:42 -0000 Hi, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > >>Or Mac OS X moves to use the FreeBSD kernel. It seems like I have heard >>this before. > > > This simly isn't going to happen, and you are incredibly naïve to Wasn't this the line I heard pretty often before Monday? Apple is now on Intel. So never say in this context that something will not happen. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 00:00:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DB016A41C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:00:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from S4.cableone.net (smtp4.cableone.net [24.116.0.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BCA43D4C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:00:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from v.velox@vvelox.net) Received: from vixen42.local.lan (unverified [24.119.122.41]) by S4.cableone.net (CableOne SMTP Service S4) with ESMTP id 22323131 for multiple; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:22:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:00:57 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Freddie Cash Message-ID: <20050609190057.5ab76960@vixen42.local.lan> In-Reply-To: <200506091257.11988.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <200506091126.57072.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> <86psuvxqma.fsf@xps.des.no> <200506091257.11988.fcash-ml@sd73.bc.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.11 (GTK+ 2.6.7; i386-portbld-freebsd5.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IP-stats: Incoming Last 0, First 21, in=35, out=0, spam=0 X-External-IP: 24.119.122.41 X-Abuse-Info: Send abuse complaints to abuse@cableone.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 00:00:22 -0000 On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:57:11 -0700 Freddie Cash wrote: > On June 9, 2005 12:43 pm, you wrote: > > Freddie Cash writes: > > > If they went with AMD processors, then they would have to either > > > build or find someone to build a chipset. > > > FYI, AMD makes chipsets. > > Yes, and some nices ones at that, especially on the server side > (our new dual-Opteron boards use AMD 8xxx chipsets). But they > don't make motherboards, they don't make audio/video chipsets, they > don't make ethernet chips, and they don't sell everything all > nicely packaged up as a single "platform". > > I'm not saying that's definitely why Apple went with Intel. But it > does make sense, if you think about it for a bit. Going with Intel > gives Intel a place to show off their "complete platform > solutions", and gives Apple a single configuration to code for. > Going with AMD would require too much work on Apple's part to get > everything working together, and would be a pain to certify the > hardware configurations as "Designed for Apple". Just did a quick search and it looks like AMD does make some ethernet hardware. But video and and audio would be a problem. > This way, they just say that MacOS X will only run on Centrino2 > laptops, whatever the desktop equivalent of Centrino will be > called, and they're done. Intel takes care of the hard parts for > them. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 01:11:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400316A41C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:11:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.net [65.122.236.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FC443D4C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:11:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from anne-o1dpaayth1.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.net [65.122.236.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10215; Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:08:08 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050609190331.079e88f0@localhost> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:08:06 -0600 To: PrzemysÅaw Nowaczyk , David Wolfskill From: Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <42A71151.7050900@o2.pl> References: <42A6D3C0.5080705@pacific.net.sg> <42A6F8FB.1020800@o2.pl> <42A6FD3E.2000503@pacific.net.sg> <42A6FE72.2010600@o2.pl> <20050608142529.GB499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A700B5.6080902@o2.pl> <20050608143821.GC499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A704C5.8090003@o2.pl> <42A70D81.1090907@daleco.biz> <42A7100A.3070604@o2.pl> <20050608153648.GD499@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <42A71151.7050900@o2.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: headless server... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:11:38 -0000 At 09:40 AM 6/8/2005, PrzemysÅ‚aw Nowaczyk wrote: >I've tried that too. The box beeps 1 long and 3 short ones.. as far as I know it 'tells' that way that it cannot be run without a video card.. >hehe, stupid mainboard :P Try telling it not to test or shadow video memory. On a classic IBM PC, the BIOS always expects to find a block of RAM at B000:0000 (monochrome adapter) or B800:0000 (color adapter) and gives one long and three short beeps if it can't find it. --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 02:27:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE3416A41C; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:27:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from misav02.sasknet.sk.ca (misav02.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.20.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6229043D48; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:27:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from shurd@sasktel.net) Received: from thyme.sasktel.net ([142.165.20.198]) by misav02 with InterScan Messaging Security Suite; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:27:06 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.193] (142-165-59-202.yktn.hssx.sasknet.sk.ca [142.165.59.202]) by thyme.sasktel.net (SaskTel eMessaging Service) with ESMTPA id <0IHU005GSK55R3@thyme.sasktel.net>; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:27:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:21:23 -0600 From: Stephen Hurd In-reply-to: <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> To: John Baldwin Message-id: <42A8F923.90009@sasktel.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8b) Gecko/20050516 References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:27:08 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > > On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > >> >>> As there is FreeBSD port to the PowerPC and its peripherals, this >>> machine will make a very interesting target for FreeBSD: combine the >>> x86 code base with the PowerPC drivers and get a real hot machine. >> >> >> The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under >> FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. > > > I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux, > svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also > includes mach so there would have to be a lot of emulation to support > that. OS X also tends to define its interface not at the kernel > syscall level but at the library API level (from what I have heard), > which means that it might require having custom versions of the base > system frameworks ala Wine which would be an enormous amount of work. > But the ABI support is about emulating the kernel ABI, not about emulating the kernel. Since the *nix userland is mostly FreeBSD afaik, the ABI must be pretty darn close already. If the interface is via libraries, that makes it MORE likely not less to happen fast... unless I misunderstand something. ABI emulation doesn't replace the libraries. You'd still need a copy of OSX to run OSX binaries that used the shared libs (Just like all the other ABI emulations). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 16:11:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3533816A41C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:11:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A529F43D4C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:11:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 32195 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2005 16:11:45 -0000 Received: from server.baldwin.cx ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 10 Jun 2005 16:11:44 -0000 Received: from [10.4.255.72] ([206.13.39.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5AGAid0073579; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:11:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Baldwin Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 06:32:21 -0700 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:11:46 -0000 On Jun 9, 2005, at 11:35 AM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, John Baldwin wrote: > >>> The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under >>> FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. >> >> I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux, >> svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also > > Or Mac OS X moves to use the FreeBSD kernel. It seems like I have heard > this before. > > What kernel-level Mac OS X/Darwin features does FreeBSD lack? Its file > system? File bundles? Mach. Darwin also does some things that we do the same differently for various reasons. > Any websites that quickly list differences between features and drivers > for FreeBSD and Darwin? Not that I'm aware of. When it comes to writing device drivers though, the model is completely different on OS X. > I have to wonder if Apple internally and secretly is already testing > FreeBSD to run its Mac OS X. I highly doubt that since OS X runs on x86 hardware very well right now and has been for the last 5 years. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 16:41:26 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8888F16A41C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CA643D48 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 29092 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 -0000 Received: from server.baldwin.cx ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 10 Jun 2005 16:41:25 -0000 Received: from [10.4.255.72] ([206.13.39.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5AGfHAe073857; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:41:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) In-Reply-To: <42A8F923.90009@sasktel.net> References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> <42A8F923.90009@sasktel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <08f9491eb6c370af2759c72c862a410e@FreeBSD.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Baldwin Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:41:08 -0700 To: Stephen Hurd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 -0000 On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > >> >> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: >> >>> >>>> As there is FreeBSD port to the PowerPC and its peripherals, this >>>> machine will make a very interesting target for FreeBSD: combine >>>> the x86 code base with the PowerPC drivers and get a real hot >>>> machine. >>> >>> >>> The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under >>> FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. >> >> >> I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux, >> svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also >> includes mach so there would have to be a lot of emulation to support >> that. OS X also tends to define its interface not at the kernel >> syscall level but at the library API level (from what I have heard), >> which means that it might require having custom versions of the base >> system frameworks ala Wine which would be an enormous amount of work. >> > But the ABI support is about emulating the kernel ABI, not about > emulating the kernel. Since the *nix userland is mostly FreeBSD > afaik, the ABI must be pretty darn close already. If the interface is > via libraries, that makes it MORE likely not less to happen fast... > unless I misunderstand something. ABI emulation doesn't replace the > libraries. You'd still need a copy of OSX to run OSX binaries that > used the shared libs (Just like all the other ABI emulations). Two things. First, OS X's kernel ABI includes things like Mach IPC, etc. that would require a good bit of code to emulate. Secondly, since OS X's ABI is at the library level, they are freer to change the kernel ABI within a 10.x "branch" making it harder to get an ABI that will work with all versions of Panther or Tiger for example. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org