From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 01:03:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@Freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2A916A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:03:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg (smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1541643D46 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:03:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 9567 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 01:03:18 -0000 Received: from maxwell6.pacific.net.sg (203.120.90.212) by smtpgate1 with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 01:03:18 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.28]) by maxwell6.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050710010318.NRRB1233.maxwell6.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:03:18 +0800 Message-ID: <42D073A7.4010206@pacific.net.sg> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:02:31 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <2D41F1BE-5813-4A04-A3B2-7AEF78D58FC5@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <2D41F1BE-5813-4A04-A3B2-7AEF78D58FC5@HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "R. Tyler Ballance" , chat@Freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:03:22 -0000 Hi, David Kelly wrote: > This doesn't belong on Questions or Hackers. > > On Jul 8, 2005, at 6:28 PM, R. Tyler Ballance wrote: > >> Howdy, >> >> i'll be meeting tuesday with staffers for my congressman (since >> he's still in D.C.) to discuss software patents and the "evil" behind >> them. > The evil behind software patents is the same evil behind all other patent: the lack of an inventive step. Prior art is already one sign that a patent can't be granted but still they do. The expertise needed to create the invention must be put back to its right place again to avoid patent flooding. We have had the examples in this conversation: training a cat und platter size of hard disks. There is no inventive step to change just one little thing but keep the principle the same. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 19:31:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0670016A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:31:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: from hosting.sourcit.net (mail3.eitsolutions.net [68.23.20.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A95643D45 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:31:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: (qmail 13365 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 14:31:02 -0500 Received: from al1-24.207.169.154.charter-stl.com (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (24.207.169.154) by hosting.sourcit.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 14:31:02 -0500 From: Bryan Maynard Organization: Sofos Nikitis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:30:09 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <200507091303.13823.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> <2BDDEF4D-C4F2-465F-B8C5-9841383466FB@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <2BDDEF4D-C4F2-465F-B8C5-9841383466FB@HiWAAY.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:31:04 -0000 On Saturday 09 July 2005 08:31 pm, David Kelly wrote: > On Jul 9, 2005, at 8:03 AM, Bryan Maynard wrote: > > If patents are applied to software, at what level of astraction do > > we stop > > allowing patents? As Kodak has, so elequently, show - you can > > obtain a patent > > for: "two machines communicating in an Object Oriented way". This > > means that > > it is not only possible, but plausible and adventageous to patent > > the for > > loop and other computational constructs. Within a year all > > consrtucts of > > computing could, very realisticly, be patented. > An invention implemented in software has long been patentable. Your > "Within a year all consrtucts of computing could, very realisticly, > be patented" is already demonstrated as unrealistic. There are two key factors you are failing to take into consideration: 1) The recent populatiry of Open Source software 2) The need for corporations to make money So far neither of us have answered the inital question: "How would software patents effect an Open Source project like FreeBSD?" The answer can found by examining exactly what a patent would be applied to. As other posters have noted, patents are useless for "software" because "software" is a consistantly chainging organism. Patenting software would be like trying to patent a person at a point in time; the second the patent is obtained it becomes obsolete. Also, what about the person is being patented? THe structure of their atoms? Their knowledge, experience, world views, or their voice singature? This proves that the only things patents are good for is static objects that do not change over time. Software DOES change over time; improvements are made, features are added, and bugs are (hopefully ;-) ) fixed. Either every time the software changes a new patent would need to be obtained or the underlying constructs would need to be patented so that their use and structe would become irrelevent (for patenting purposes). This is where my comment "within a year all constructs of computing could, very realistially, be patented". Your rebuttle to this comment shows some level of ignorance: softwere is not, in itself, an invention. Software uses language constructs (if. . .then, foreach, for, do. . .while) to produce funstionality. It is the language constructs that are the inventions - and even this could be debated because language contrusts simply provide a layer of abstraction over the physical circuits. Software is NOT an invention - in any way. Web servers are not inventions - they are implementaions of ideas that use inventions to provide services. There are many libraries that FreeBSD uses at a very low level (libfoo, libbar, etc.). Based on my previous statements, the real danger from software patents does not come from FreeBSD's use of these libraries, or even the libraries themselves. Intead, the danger comes when the underlying constructs used to build the libraries is patented. This will not hapen with the current generation of languages (C, C++, Perl, etc.) sonce the "prior art" factor is plain and evident. However, when NEW languages emerge, which happens all the time, the problem of software patents will become instantly terrifying. Note all the attempts Microsoft has made to "patent the internet". Two employees at Microsoft developed a protocol very similar to IPv6 (the next generation addressing standard for the internet). When these two employees left Microsoft, they contributed a lot of their protocol concepts to the w3c and IETF - and laid the groundwork for what is now IPv6. Once Microsoft saw that IPv6 was beginning to pick up steam, they immediatly tried to patent the addressing scheme claiming they created it first and that IPv6 was a "dirivative work" based on their "invention". This is an example of the dangers FreeBSD, and indeed all software designers, face: the toold used must remain usable by the genral public under sensible and appropriate licensing terms. Patents would make it impossible for FreeBSD designers to use any new languages, unless they were patented in such a way that the new languages remained freely usable - which would defeat the entire purpose of obtaining a patent in the forst place. > Just because something can be abused there is no reason to throw the > baby out with the bath water. Its pretty well documented that money > can buy lawyers to make up == down, set Simpson, Jackson, and Scrushy > free. With all dew respect, this view is both nieve and dangerous: there is VERY GOOD reason to be both cautious and wary of ANYTHING that can be abused. I am in no way suggesting we "throw the baby out with the bath water". I am, instead, pasionatly emploring anyone involved in the decision-making process about software patents to look long and hard the ramifications of software patents. > The problem is not "software patents" but that fool patents are > issued for existing art. Likely that is the case with the Kodak > patent mentioned. It certainly is the case in "Method for Exercising > a Cat." You are exactly right! Fool patents are a reality and have already caused much damage (Kodak vs Sun). This is precicely the danger that needs to be avoided. > Another which comes to mind claimed a patent on numbering the frames > for use as an index in a multimedia data file, as if film hasn't been > marked with footage during manufacture the past 50 or 80 years. As I > said earlier the wrongness is in considering software to be any > different than any other implementation, just as in the past a 10" > disk platter was considered fresh territory where 12" platter patents > did not apply. You keep proving my point. . . Using the financial resources availible to them, corporations could - and would - find ways to obtain all sorts of crazy and resrtictive patents. Remember this: a company's first order of business is ALWAYS to make money - without exception. This does not make companies evil. It simply means that they do whatever it takes to make a buck. This is in DIRECT opposition to us Open Source developers. We have neither in resources nor the inclination to "horde" all our creations to ourselves to turn a profit > > Before I close, I would like to return to my point on software > > licensing. > > One question: Why are movies not patented? Why are "types" of > > movies not > > patented? I am not talking about patenting "action" movies or > > "love" stories > > (although that would be possible using the logic of those who > > currently > > support software patents). I am talking about the patenting of > > documentable, > > movie formulas: > > 1.a) Boy meets girl > > 1.b) Boy falls in love with girl > > 1.c) Boy losses girl > > 1.d) Boy gets girl back > > 1.e) Boy and girl live happily ever after > The answer is very simple, "prior art." The screenwriter did not > invent "boy meets girl." Or "boy meets boy." Or "boy meets dog." Or > "boy meets alien." Copyright protection last much longer than patent > and is easier to get. Especially when heavily borrowing from other's > ideas. Yet when one borrows too much one must hire lawyers for > defense. How much is too much? Well, the rich guys have to settle > that with battling lawyers. Exactly the same as with patents. Prior are, as you so often fall back on, actaully sums up the reason software patents are useless: there is nothing new under the sun. As I stated earlier - software does not fit the definition of an "invention". Software does, indeed, employ techniques to solve problems but, again, if these techniques (design pattern, rapid prototying, etc.) were patented FreeBSD and other Open Source projects would be doomed. > The wrongest solution is to deny a patent simply because it is > implemented in software. The ideal solution would be to have better > patent examiners, but "better" is anathema to government. USPO > examiners are patent lawyers perpetually showing off to prospective > employers at taxpayer's expense. Again you prove my point elegantly: we cannot say that software patents "should" be ok, or even that they "will" be ideal "when" something happens. NEVER make decisions based on the "ideal" solution, unless evry aspect of that solution has already been fully realized - that spells disaster. > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net > ======================================================================== > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. In the ned I return to my point from my previous post: Find the right tool for the job, and use it. Software patents are simply not the right tool for the job of protecting creators and artists. Software grows, changes, and matures. Patents cannot protect growth and change. They are intended to protect static object and ideas. Licensing is the right tool for the job of artist protection and recognition for software. Licensing can be verisoned and swapped as software grows, changes, and matures. Licenses provide all the protection software needs and does not bring any extra baggage. Again, thank you for your time. Bryan -- Open Source: by the people, for the people. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 20:16:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCBD16A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:16:18 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-148-33.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.148.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7878943D4C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:16:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 0B62F21039; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:16:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:16:15 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Bryan Maynard Message-ID: <20050710201615.GB67772@over-yonder.net> References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <200507091303.13823.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> <2BDDEF4D-C4F2-465F-B8C5-9841383466FB@HiWAAY.net> <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i-fullermd.2 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:16:19 -0000 On Sun, Jul 10, 2005 at 02:30:09PM +0000 I heard the voice of Bryan Maynard, and lo! it spake thus: > > softwere is not, in itself, an invention. Software uses language > constructs (if. . .then, foreach, for, do. . .while) to produce > funstionality. Elevators are not, in themselves, an invention; they just use physical constructs (counterweighting, pulleys, etc) to produce functionality. ASICs are not, in themselves, inventions; they just use logical constructs (gates, electrical flows) to produce functionality. Clothes washers are not, in themselves, an invention; they just use constructs (water, heat, detergant, agitation) to produce functionality. To argue otherwise would be patently absurd ;) Your arguments would be perfectly consistent if you were arguing against patents altogether, but they don't get you anywhere in attempting to demonstrate that a means to an end is somehow "different" if it involves typing instead of machining. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 22:17:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98A516A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:17:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: from smtp.knology.net (smtp.knology.net [24.214.63.101]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2CAC643D45 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:17:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dkelly@HiWAAY.net) Received: (qmail 29560 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jul 2005 22:17:00 -0000 Received: from user-69-73-60-132.knology.net (HELO ?10.0.0.6?) (69.73.60.132) by smtp2.knology.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 22:17:00 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v730) In-Reply-To: <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <200507091303.13823.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> <2BDDEF4D-C4F2-465F-B8C5-9841383466FB@HiWAAY.net> <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <640EF749-FF8A-4AC9-8546-469ECB523288@HiWAAY.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David Kelly Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:16:58 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:17:02 -0000 On Jul 10, 2005, at 9:30 AM, Bryan Maynard wrote: > There are two key factors you are failing to take into consideration: > > 1) The recent populatiry of Open Source software > 2) The need for corporations to make money Trimmed to a nutshell, you simply want free access and use of intellectual property. > So far neither of us have answered the inital question: "How would > software > patents effect an Open Source project like FreeBSD?" FreeBSD is already operating in a world of software patents. Your wording begs the question in suggesting software patents do not exist yet. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 22:56:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C272716A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:56:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: from hosting.sourcit.net (mail3.eitsolutions.net [68.23.20.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5440543D45 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:56:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: (qmail 17581 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:56:12 -0500 Received: from al1-24.207.169.154.charter-stl.com (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (24.207.169.154) by sourcit.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:56:12 -0500 From: Bryan Maynard Organization: Sofos Nikitis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:55:20 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> <640EF749-FF8A-4AC9-8546-469ECB523288@HiWAAY.net> In-Reply-To: <640EF749-FF8A-4AC9-8546-469ECB523288@HiWAAY.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507101755.20826.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:56:13 -0000 On Sunday 10 July 2005 10:16 pm, David Kelly wrote: > On Jul 10, 2005, at 9:30 AM, Bryan Maynard wrote: > > There are two key factors you are failing to take into consideration: > > 1) The recent populatiry of Open Source software > > 2) The need for corporations to make money > Trimmed to a nutshell, you simply want free access and use of > intellectual property. You are exactly right. I cannot afford a high-priced high-profile OS and/or development environment right now. All the software I currently use is Open Source. Part of the reason is precisely because it is free, part is because it works better for me than comparable commercial software, another reason is because I want to learn from the software I use. Since the code is Open and freely viewable I can learn how things are done and gain the experience of seasoned vetrans in my own projects. > > So far neither of us have answered the inital question: "How would > > software > > patents effect an Open Source project like FreeBSD?" > FreeBSD is already operating in a world of software patents. Your > wording begs the question in suggesting software patents do not exist > yet. You are right. However, the question was asked - so I thought it would be proper to answer. I am well aware that FreeBSD exists in a world of patents. But the recent attention over software patents specifically threatens to take the level of software patenting to a new - and possibly sloppy, confusing - and possibly damaging new level. Quick question: How many software developers are aware that the w3c patents all their specifications? Right now that is not really a concern for most developers. However, if software patents become the standard way of securing software (which they do not even do properly) then the world of software development becomes a legal domain instead of a creative domain. > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net > ======================================================================== > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. Thanks, Bryan -- Open Source: by the people, for the people. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 23:37:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6097316A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:37:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: from hosting.sourcit.net (mail3.eitsolutions.net [68.23.20.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E37343D46 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:37:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: (qmail 17177 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:37:13 -0500 Received: from al1-24.207.169.154.charter-stl.com (HELO ?192.168.1.100?) (24.207.169.154) by sourcit.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:37:13 -0500 From: Bryan Maynard Organization: Sofos Nikitis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:36:21 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> <20050710201615.GB67772@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20050710201615.GB67772@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <200507101736.22061.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:37:16 -0000 On Sunday 10 July 2005 08:16 pm, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2005 at 02:30:09PM +0000 I heard the voice of > Bryan Maynard, and lo! it spake thus: > > softwere is not, in itself, an invention. Software uses language > > constructs (if. . .then, foreach, for, do. . .while) to produce > > funstionality. > Elevators are not, in themselves, an invention; they just use physical > constructs (counterweighting, pulleys, etc) to produce functionality. > ASICs are not, in themselves, inventions; they just use logical > constructs (gates, electrical flows) to produce functionality. > Clothes washers are not, in themselves, an invention; they just use > constructs (water, heat, detergant, agitation) to produce > functionality. To argue otherwise would be patently absurd ;) > Your arguments would be perfectly consistent if you were arguing > against patents altogether, but they don't get you anywhere in > attempting to demonstrate that a means to an end is somehow > "different" if it involves typing instead of machining. Thank you. I am against patents all together. . . :-D I am not, however, nieve enough to believe that the millions of patents that handed out will ever be revoked. My intention is to: "Stop the barbarians at the gate.". Patents have been adopted in so many other industries that I do not want to see them stifle innovation in IT. I am not a multi-national conglomorate. I do not have deep pockets. I am just one man who has a lot of (great) ideas. I am simply not able to pay for patents to keep my "inventions" safe. I can, however, pick the software license (CPL) that best suites my needs and use it - free of charge. You are also write that software is no different than, say, a car engine. . . I am simply hoping that software does not suffer the same fate as the auto industry: To bring a product to market is extremely expensive. Right now software can be developed and distributed free of charge. The day that ceases to be possible not only will projects like FreeBSD dissapear, but so will my project. College students and people needing a boost in their resumes will also be SOL as they will not have projects like FreeBSD and thereallm to contribute to and list on their resume. Thank you for honestly disecting my comments and providing constructive critisism. I appreciate it. :-D And let me state for the record: I am, indeed, against patents in general - and will fervently defend the ability for software to be designed, developed, and distributed free of charge. I believe free software to be the best sorce for innovation and creativity. Thank you for your time and attention, Bryan -- Open Source: by the people, for the people. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 10 23:39:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173C916A41C for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:39:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: from smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg (smtpgate1.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F81843D45 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:39:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from oceanare@pacific.net.sg) Received: (qmail 19094 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 23:39:09 -0000 Received: from maxwell2.pacific.net.sg (203.120.90.192) by smtpgate1 with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 23:39:09 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.107] ([210.24.246.28]) by maxwell2.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id <20050710233908.RYFH28012.maxwell2.pacific.net.sg@[192.168.0.107]>; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:39:08 +0800 Message-ID: <42D1B191.2000908@pacific.net.sg> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:38:57 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky Organization: oceanare pte ltd User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050514) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bryan Maynard References: <9A4DB033-3EF6-498F-8DF7-FD402C8E5D9C@tamu.edu> <200507091303.13823.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> <2BDDEF4D-C4F2-465F-B8C5-9841383466FB@HiWAAY.net> <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> In-Reply-To: <200507101430.10195.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:39:12 -0000 Hi, Bryan Maynard wrote: > On Saturday 09 July 2005 08:31 pm, David Kelly wrote: > >>On Jul 9, 2005, at 8:03 AM, Bryan Maynard wrote: >> > So far neither of us have answered the inital question: "How would software > patents effect an Open Source project like FreeBSD?" > It will affect FreeBSD like any other operating system. But does FreeBSD make use of those inventions? I would say FreeBSD does not use patented methods. Applications might use them. What can be done to make patent null and void at least to extent that they do not affect FreeBSD? There are two ways. The first way covers existing patent, the second way protects from future patents. A patent is only valid on one country. The owner of patent can apply for the same patent within the first year of registration. The idea protected in a patent can be freely used in any other country. If FreeBSD has to use patented methods, it can host the software for it in countries without protection for that idea. The method to avoid future patents to affect FreeBSD would be a list 'ideas' where ideas are discussed. Even if they idea is then never used, it also is not possible to get a patent for this idea as the mailing list is published at the Internet creating prior art. Dicussing ideas openly is a simple and cheap method to fight patents. No matter how ridicules an idea sounds, just discuss it openly. If FreeBSD implements later the same idea, no patent granted later as thre publication can be used against FreeBSD. Erich From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 13 13:42:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257EB16A41C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:42:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from torrent.cc.mcgill.ca (torrent.cc.mcgill.ca [132.206.27.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8F943D4C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:42:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from mailscan5.CC.McGill.CA (mailscan5.CC.McGill.CA [132.216.77.252]) by torrent.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j6DDgnux010185 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:49 -0400 Received: from cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (cube.CND.McGill.CA [132.216.25.196]) by mailscan5.CC.McGill.CA (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DDgLjT003545 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:21 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.153]) by cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DDgDmF031639; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:13 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DDgD8Q028932; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:13 -0400 Received: (from mat@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j6DDgD93028931; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:42:12 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Cc: Mathew Kanner Subject: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:42:51 -0000 Hi All, I just got the word that I about to loose my e-mail access. I'm desperately looking for a replacement. I'm willing to spend a little money if I have to (but then they have to be reputable). My ideal has: - Ssh shell access - Mutt inside a screen session - procmail or some other sorting agent/filter The last time I looked, gmail wasn't right for me because I couldn't sort the freebsd lists into folders. Anybody have any suggestions? Arrg, please help, --Mat From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 13 13:53:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B7B16A41F for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:53:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phil.brennan@gmail.com) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41F143D58 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:53:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phil.brennan@gmail.com) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id l8so107380nzf for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:53:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=beUK/s1yozyUIX/4hSvC3YtZ5VF+ydIPk7kMAgPTrR9/2QXKVSRPkphuombxfU9ttM/TCQmbuqk3urR0VRfYtml/MxufpuktCVsgIBKZq9vsAA9Nlt+3/fbZcgj2oplAAJBiqRHEBgxYGtptughk8v0uh6R9V+PO95UcuDHateI= Received: by 10.36.89.3 with SMTP id m3mr791667nzb; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.104.5 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:53:16 +0000 From: Phil Brennan To: Mathew Kanner In-Reply-To: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Phil Brennan List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:53:19 -0000 gmail can do it. You just setup filters, it works great. On 7/13/05, Mathew Kanner wrote: > Hi All, > I just got the word that I about to loose my e-mail access. > I'm desperately looking for a replacement. I'm willing to spend a > little money if I have to (but then they have to be reputable). >=20 > My ideal has: > - Ssh shell access > - Mutt inside a screen session > - procmail or some other sorting agent/filter >=20 > The last time I looked, gmail wasn't right for me because I > couldn't sort the freebsd lists into folders. > Anybody have any suggestions? > Arrg, please help, > --Mat > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 13 13:58:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D3216A41C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from denny@alistair.scapegoats.org) Received: from alistair.scapegoats.org (alistair.scapegoats.org [64.40.92.44]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1C643D4C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from denny@alistair.scapegoats.org) Received: by alistair.scapegoats.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B433E37; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:00:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:00:34 -0500 From: Denny Reiter To: Mathew Kanner Message-ID: <20050713140034.GF51764@reiters.org> References: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> X-Uptime: 8:57AM up 569 days, 4:40, 9 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 X-PGP-Key: http://pgp.dtype.org:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x997F9D70 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at strayneutrino.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:58:54 -0000 On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:42:12AM -0400, Mathew Kanner wrote: > Hi All, > I just got the word that I about to loose my e-mail access. > I'm desperately looking for a replacement. I'm willing to spend a > little money if I have to (but then they have to be reputable). > > My ideal has: > - Ssh shell access > - Mutt inside a screen session > - procmail or some other sorting agent/filter > > The last time I looked, gmail wasn't right for me because I > couldn't sort the freebsd lists into folders. > Anybody have any suggestions? This might be helpful with the gmail account: http://souptonuts.sourceforge.net/postfix_tutorial.html That way you can fetch down your mail locally, send it through procmail, and read it in Mutt. Though if you don't have outside access to your local machine, you'd lose the "read anywhere" advantage. -- Denny Reiter denny@reiters.org From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 13 14:39:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186FC16A41C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:39:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from torrent.cc.mcgill.ca (torrent.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CAF743D46 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:39:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from mailscan2.cc.mcgill.ca (mailscan2.CC.McGill.CA [132.216.77.249]) by torrent.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j6DEdj0s026136; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:39:45 -0400 Received: from cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (cube.CND.McGill.CA [132.216.25.196]) by mailscan2.cc.mcgill.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j6DEdY1h016976; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.153]) by cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DEdF4D032139; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:39:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DEdFRv028974; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:39:15 -0400 Received: (from mat@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j6DEdEdF028973; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:39:14 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:39:13 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: Phil Brennan Message-ID: <20050713143913.GC20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Mathew Kanner Subject: Re: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:39:48 -0000 On Jul 13, Phil Brennan wrote: > [ freebsd mailing list ] > gmail can do it. You just setup filters, it works great. Example? (Yes I'm lazy) --Mat > -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 13 14:42:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E56B16A41C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:42:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from drizzle.cc.mcgill.ca (drizzle.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.48]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226A643D46 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:42:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from mailscan3.cc.mcgill.ca (mailscan3.CC.McGill.CA [132.216.77.250]) by drizzle.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j6DEfNPp002177; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:42:49 -0400 Received: from cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (cube.CND.McGill.CA [132.216.25.196]) by mailscan3.cc.mcgill.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j6DEf78e008849; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.153]) by cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DEelAJ032165; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:40:47 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DEeloV028981; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:40:47 -0400 Received: (from mat@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j6DEel12028980; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:40:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 10:40:47 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: Denny Reiter Message-ID: <20050713144047.GD20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> <20050713140034.GF51764@reiters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050713140034.GF51764@reiters.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Mathew Kanner Subject: Re: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:42:51 -0000 On Jul 13, Denny Reiter wrote: > On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:42:12AM -0400, Mathew Kanner wrote: > > Hi All, > > I just got the word that I about to loose my e-mail access. > > I'm desperately looking for a replacement. I'm willing to spend a > > little money if I have to (but then they have to be reputable). > > > > My ideal has: > > - Ssh shell access > > - Mutt inside a screen session > > - procmail or some other sorting agent/filter > > > > The last time I looked, gmail wasn't right for me because I > > couldn't sort the freebsd lists into folders. > > Anybody have any suggestions? > > This might be helpful with the gmail account: > > http://souptonuts.sourceforge.net/postfix_tutorial.html > > That way you can fetch down your mail locally, send it through > procmail, and read it in Mutt. Though if you don't have outside > access to your local machine, you'd lose the "read anywhere" > advantage. This is almost perfect. Thanks! --Mat From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 13 15:44:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE2B16A41C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:44:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from torrent.cc.mcgill.ca (torrent.cc.mcgill.ca [132.206.27.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF2A43D48 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:44:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mat@cnd.mcgill.ca) Received: from mailscan3.cc.mcgill.ca (mailscan3.CC.McGill.CA [132.216.77.250]) by torrent.cc.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j6DFicGD018514; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:44:40 -0400 Received: from cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (cube.CND.McGill.CA [132.216.25.196]) by mailscan3.cc.mcgill.ca (8.13.0/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j6DFiabo026562; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant.cnd.mcgill.ca [132.216.11.153]) by cube.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DFiFhu032706; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:44:16 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (giant [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DFiFuZ029032; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:44:15 -0400 Received: (from mat@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id j6DFiF6M029031; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:44:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:44:15 -0400 From: Mathew Kanner To: Phil Brennan Message-ID: <20050713154415.GE20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> References: <20050713134212.GA20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> <20050713140034.GF51764@reiters.org> <20050713144047.GD20863@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Mathew Kanner Subject: Re: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:44:43 -0000 On Jul 13, Phil Brennan wrote: > On 7/13/05, Mathew Kanner wrote: > > On Jul 13, Denny Reiter wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 09:42:12AM -0400, Mathew Kanner wrote: > > Here you go, see attached screenshot. Note that the freebsd mail is > all sorted and available from the labels on the left. Took a while to > setup all the filters, but worth it. Hi, First thanks for the screenshot, that was an unexpected. I see that what you are doing is matching delivery based on the 'to:' address. So you need 'to:freebsd-current' and 'to:current'. This would work most of the time. My ideal would be able to match the 'delivered_to' or 'Sender' (or an arbitrary header), last time I looked they could not do that. --Mat -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 14 12:31:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BC316A441 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:31:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org (nezlok.unixathome.org [66.154.97.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C26043D4C for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:31:31 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB65590D for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nezlok.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 52507-03 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (CPE0004aca374af-CM0011e67a4a3b.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [70.26.229.230]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137D958FF for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [10.55.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7DB3D37 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:31:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 08:31:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <42D622D5.25413.64F11E2@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at unixathome.org Subject: Ottawa colo recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:31:36 -0000 Hey folks, I'm looking to relocated a colo box in the Ottawa area. My preferences: cheap, 100% uptime is not required, doesn't have to be a blisteringly fast connection. I don't need 24-hour access to the box. I don't need a support line I can call at any hour of the day. Any recommendations? -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 14 14:11:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA3B16A41C for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:11:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: from opusnet.com (mail.opusnet.com [209.210.200.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525EE43D4C for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:11:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain [70.98.247.55] by opusnet.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id A2752930032; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:11:01 -0700 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6EEBcTw001551; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j6EEBWWT001550; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) To: Mathew Kanner From: garys@opusnet.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:11:32 -0700 Message-ID: <89y889fpez.889@mail.opusnet.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.17 (Jumbo Shrimp, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: need a new mail server X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:11:06 -0000 > This is almost perfect. Thanks! Almost. But be sure to read http://mail.google.com/mail/help/terms_of_use.html and particularly, their "indemnification" and "jurisdiction" clauses. I limit my dealing with such lawyer's clients to read-only access of their web sites where the chance of being sued is more nearly zero. BTW, my insurance man doesn't know of any coverage for these risks. Unfortunately, I can't find a domain name registrar without an indemnification clause in their TOS. So it looks like my web page on the subject won't be at "zero-indemnity.org". From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 15 00:50:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54EF416A41C for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:50:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from blackwater.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.135]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFD843D46 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:50:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by blackwater.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 035ED86DC2; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:20:46 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:20:46 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Dan Langille Message-ID: <20050715005046.GY16588@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <42D622D5.25413.64F11E2@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1VhaNAE4Hwu38Ubd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42D622D5.25413.64F11E2@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ottawa colo recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:50:51 -0000 --1VhaNAE4Hwu38Ubd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday, 14 July 2005 at 8:31:17 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > Hey folks, > > I'm looking to relocated a colo box in the Ottawa area. > > My preferences: cheap, 100% uptime is not required, doesn't have to > be a blisteringly fast connection. I don't need 24-hour access to > the box. I don't need a support line I can call at any hour of the > day. JOOI, why does it need to be local? My web server is in Canberra, mainly for hysterical raisins, but I had also considered Germany at the time when they were selling them at bargain basement prices. Greg -- The virus contained in this message was detected, clubbed to death and distributed throughout the Internet as vaccine by LEMIS anti-virus. For further details see http://www.lemis.com/grog/lemis-virus.html Finger grog@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. --1VhaNAE4Hwu38Ubd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFC1whmIubykFB6QiMRArv4AKC05/nsT1s4e4+ICMAAqA8dhyk6WACfctPR A9ewsYLgdpujC8KswZDnVtI= =/+R8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1VhaNAE4Hwu38Ubd-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 15 01:52:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0333F16A41C; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:52:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org (nezlok.unixathome.org [66.154.97.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904DF43D46; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:52:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE805954; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nezlok.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25049-08; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (CPE0004aca374af-CM0011e67a4a3b.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [70.26.229.230]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487BB596C; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [10.55.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4DB3D37; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:25:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:25:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <42D6D837.19121.9139334@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20050715005046.GY16588@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <42D622D5.25413.64F11E2@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at unixathome.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ottawa colo recommendations? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:52:01 -0000 On 15 Jul 2005 at 10:20, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 14 July 2005 at 8:31:17 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > > Hey folks, > > > > I'm looking to relocated a colo box in the Ottawa area. > > > > My preferences: cheap, 100% uptime is not required, doesn't have to > > be a blisteringly fast connection. I don't need 24-hour access to > > the box. I don't need a support line I can call at any hour of the > > day. > > JOOI, why does it need to be local? My web server is in Canberra, > mainly for hysterical raisins, but I had also considered Germany at > the time when they were selling them at bargain basement prices. This box is my box. If it fails, I need to repair it. I'd prefer that to be a local drive rather than spend all weekend driving/flying. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/