From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 17 15:35:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5555916A41C for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kinggim@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA7DA43D48 for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kinggim@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 58so878630wri for ; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:35:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=nIDWpf0j0Vw3xjJECziRBzxJ5KFyNnKFus6MYfAAKrhpRUBaENzzVmEzyYqluDKrREoDgoUwzd/9vlLOciJ5YpFm+vrmJQTt+x8btME+Smu/1fOM/rICKT6MYXxNUmmz7dDGChsxu/XOjMwuqepmbYkudhYU0JfWZBGlgMmZp7k= Received: by 10.54.137.14 with SMTP id k14mr111859wrd; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.49.40 with HTTP; Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 17:35:40 +0200 From: King Gimp To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: King Gimp List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 15:35:41 -0000 Hi! >From http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/=20 "The competition was closed on 2005-06-30. As of 2005-06-30 we have received 540 compliant submissions. The result will be announced via announce@ mailing list and on this page." My question is: any deadline for $subject? Thanks! - gim From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 18 09:54:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21D616A41C for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:54:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from rosebud.otenet.gr (rosebud.otenet.gr [195.170.0.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4ACD43D48 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:54:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226]) by rosebud.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with SMTP id j6I9s2fx004369; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:54:02 +0300 Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6I9s19R002712; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:54:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j6I9s1B8002711; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:54:01 +0300 (EEST) X-Authentication-Warning: beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv: keramida set sender to keramida@ceid.upatras.gr using -f Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:54:01 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: King Gimp Message-ID: <20050718095401.GC2614@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:54:05 -0000 On 2005-07-17 17:35, King Gimp wrote: > From http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/ > > "The competition was closed on 2005-06-30. As of 2005-06-30 we have > received 540 compliant submissions. > > The result will be announced via announce@ mailing list and on this page." > My question is: any deadline for $subject? Any deadline after which people would stop bugging the hell out of all of us who don't really care for a new logo, by posting the same crap every week or so? When there are news, there will be news. Until then, please, some of us have already had enough of all this logo business :-/ - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 18 12:14:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721BD16A41C for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:14:42 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51DB43D48 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:14:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [10.3.101.26] (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j6IBBSOI070610; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:11:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42DB8E50.4040707@401.cx> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:11:12 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20050718095401.GC2614@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> In-Reply-To: <20050718095401.GC2614@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: King Gimp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:14:42 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2005-07-17 17:35, King Gimp wrote: > >>From http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/ >> >>"The competition was closed on 2005-06-30. As of 2005-06-30 we have >>received 540 compliant submissions. >> >>The result will be announced via announce@ mailing list and on this page." >>My question is: any deadline for $subject? > > > Any deadline after which people would stop bugging the hell out of all > of us who don't really care for a new logo, by posting the same crap > every week or so? > > When there are news, there will be news. Until then, please, some of us > have already had enough of all this logo business :-/ Well, there are actually quite a lot of people who *do* care about the logo, so allow me to turn your question around: Any deadline after which people that do not care about the logo will stop bugging us that do, and let us discuss the subject without having to deal with *your* crap? If there is a posting about the same subject every week, simple statistics say that there has to be atleast a moderate interest in the subject, or else the postings would not occur. That some people do not find it interesting at all does not justify dropping it. I frequently recieve postings on subjects that do not concern or interests me, but I simply ignore them and move on. This is chat@, after all. I apologize for the somewhat harsh tone, but to be honest, your mail was not exactly polite either. -- R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 18 12:35:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF9316A42B for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:35:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from aiolos.otenet.gr (aiolos.otenet.gr [195.170.0.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8D543D49 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:35:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (aris.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.226]) by aiolos.otenet.gr (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-1) with SMTP id j6ICZQJC032215; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:35:26 +0300 Received: from beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j6ICZQm4008892; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:35:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id j6ICZPaD008891; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:35:25 +0300 (EEST) X-Authentication-Warning: beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv: keramida set sender to keramida@ceid.upatras.gr using -f Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:35:25 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-ID: <20050718123525.GB8819@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> References: <20050718095401.GC2614@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> <42DB8E50.4040707@401.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42DB8E50.4040707@401.cx> Cc: King Gimp , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:35:35 -0000 On 2005-07-18 13:11, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >>On 2005-07-17 17:35, King Gimp wrote: >>> From http://logo-contest.freebsd.org/ >>> >>> "The competition was closed on 2005-06-30. As of 2005-06-30 we have >>> received 540 compliant submissions. >>> >>> The result will be announced via announce@ mailing list and on this page." >>> My question is: any deadline for $subject? >> >> Any deadline after which people would stop bugging the hell out of all >> of us who don't really care for a new logo, by posting the same crap >> every week or so? >> >> When there are news, there will be news. Until then, please, some of us >> have already had enough of all this logo business :-/ > > Well, there are actually quite a lot of people who *do* care about the > logo, so allow me to turn your question around: Any deadline after > which people that do not care about the logo will stop bugging us that > do, and let us discuss the subject without having to deal with *your* > crap? There is a slight but very important difference between: a) not caring about the logo b) not caring for a new logo But I guess it doesn't matter now, does it? :-) > If there is a posting about the same subject every week, simple > statistics say that there has to be atleast a moderate interest in the > subject, or else the postings would not occur. These statistics are false as long as they don't also count the number of people who have started feeling terminally bored by seeing the same "logo contest" theme repeating over and over again, the number of people who disagree with the change but don't voise their objections, etc. > That some people do not find it interesting at all does not justify > dropping it. I frequently recieve postings on subjects that do not > concern or interests me, but I simply ignore them and move on. This is > chat@, after all. > > I apologize for the somewhat harsh tone, but to be honest, your mail > was not exactly polite either. True. My apologies if I have personally offended anyone too, since this was not meant to be a personal attack; rather a somewhat strong way to express my growing anxiety about the fact that users seem to care a lot more about "this gif image" or "that jpeg icon" these days than actually making real, tangible, contributions in one of the forms that would probably benefit a lot more (even if that's just an article about "how cool FreeBSD Ports are" in a local magazine of Patras, Greece). - Giorgos From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 18 18:17:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A3216A41C for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:17:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BE543D45 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:17:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from [192.168.200.2] (rocky [192.168.200.2]) by rambo.401.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j6IIBr9Y075668; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:11:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <42DBF120.6040709@401.cx> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:12:48 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas References: <20050718095401.GC2614@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> <42DB8E50.4040707@401.cx> <20050718123525.GB8819@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> In-Reply-To: <20050718123525.GB8819@beatrix.daedalusnetworks.priv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD logo design competition X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:17:05 -0000 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2005-07-18 13:11, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: >>Well, there are actually quite a lot of people who *do* care about the >>logo, so allow me to turn your question around: Any deadline after >>which people that do not care about the logo will stop bugging us that >>do, and let us discuss the subject without having to deal with *your* >>crap? > > > There is a slight but very important difference between: > > a) not caring about the logo > b) not caring for a new logo > > But I guess it doesn't matter now, does it? :-) Actually, FreeBSD does not currently have a logo. It has a mascot. But that is a subject that has been discussed way to much already and I refuse to get sucked in again. There is no logo, and thats all I have to say about that! > > >>If there is a posting about the same subject every week, simple >>statistics say that there has to be atleast a moderate interest in the >>subject, or else the postings would not occur. > > > These statistics are false as long as they don't also count the number > of people who have started feeling terminally bored by seeing the same > "logo contest" theme repeating over and over again, the number of people > who disagree with the change but don't voise their objections, etc. Actually, no. There has to be an interest for postings to occur. Wether the majority of the community is interested or not is irrelevant, simple logic says that if postings occur regularly, there has to be atleast some interest in the subject. People may disagree with the whole idea, but by doing so, they too show interest. >>That some people do not find it interesting at all does not justify >>dropping it. I frequently recieve postings on subjects that do not >>concern or interests me, but I simply ignore them and move on. This is >>chat@, after all. >> >>I apologize for the somewhat harsh tone, but to be honest, your mail >>was not exactly polite either. > > > True. My apologies if I have personally offended anyone too, since this > was not meant to be a personal attack; rather a somewhat strong way to > express my growing anxiety about the fact that users seem to care a lot > more about "this gif image" or "that jpeg icon" these days than actually > making real, tangible, contributions in one of the forms that would > probably benefit a lot more (even if that's just an article about "how > cool FreeBSD Ports are" in a local magazine of Patras, Greece). I can only speak for myself, but Im in no way offended. I know that you contribute to FreeBSD and for that I respect you. But still I fail to see why argueing for a logo excludes all the other ways of contributing. I constantly advocate BSD, write howtos, keep local classes and donate money, but I also as soon as given an opportunity advocate any change that can make FreeBSD look more like a serious piece of software then a garage project. Once again I could turn your argument around and ask why the people that consider articles much more important then a logo dont spend their time writing those articles instead of working against those that think a logo is more important? If everyone just did what they preached, we would pretty soon have both a logo and lots of new articles. :) -- R From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 19 06:25:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CA716A41C for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:25:55 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEDFF43D4C for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:25:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000594071.msg for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:23:44 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:25:23 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200507101736.22061.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:23:44 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:23:44 -0700 Subject: RE: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:25:55 -0000 > On Sunday 10 July 2005 08:16 pm, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Thank you. I am against patents all together. . . :-D If there was no patent system, the same effect would be achieved by contracts and EULAs. The net effect would be the same as with patents, except that the terms would not be limited by law and there would not be as much public disclosure. > I am not, however, nieve enough to believe that the millions of > patents that handed out will ever be revoked. They will be. Each one is term-limited to at most 20 years from when it was filed. > My intention is to: "Stop the barbarians at the gate.". Patents > have been adopted in so many other industries that I do not want > to see them stifle innovation in IT. I am not a multi-national > conglomorate. I do not have deep pockets. I am just one man who > has a lot of (great) ideas. I am simply not able to pay for > patents to keep my "inventions" safe. I can, however, pick the > software license (CPL) that best suites my needs and use it - > free of charge. You don't have to pay for patents to keep your inventions safe. You only need to pay for a patent to prevent someone else from using your idea. If you make your idea public, nobody can patent it. > You are also write that software is no different than, say, a car > engine. . . > I am simply hoping that software does not suffer the same fate as > the auto industry: To bring a product to market is extremely > expensive. Patents have nothing to do with this. In fact, in the software industry, where we certainly have as many patents as any other industry, you can bring a product to market for almost nothing. > Right now software can be developed and distributed > free of charge. The day that ceases to be possible not only will > projects like FreeBSD dissapear, but so will my project. College > students and people needing a boost in their resumes will also be > SOL as they will not have projects like FreeBSD and thereallm to > contribute to and list on their resume. Since we have software patents and nothing even remotely like this has happened, why are you so down on software patents? > Thank you for honestly disecting my comments and providing > constructive critisism. I appreciate it. :-D > > And let me state for the record: I am, indeed, against patents in > general - and will fervently defend the ability for software to > be designed, developed, and distributed free of charge. I believe > free software to be the best sorce for innovation and creativity. How do you think patents prevent software from being designed, developed or distributed free of charge? They just mean that if you didn't think of an idea first, you may not be able to use it for 20 years. In exchange, anyone else who wants to protect their ideas has to disclose them to you, so the likelihood that good ideas will stay secret is lower. There are certainly problems with dumb patents being issued, but this is a really bad reason to prevent legitimate patents on legitimately new ideas from being issued. There are also problems with technically inept judges and money buying ridiculous legal decisions. But that's not a problem with patents per se, you'd see more of the same problems with EULAs and licensing agreements if patents weren't around. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 19 17:00:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E4F16A41F for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:00:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-148-33.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.148.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782EB43D46 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:00:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id B30122107F; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:00:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:00:37 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: David Schwartz Message-ID: <20050719170036.GF84047@over-yonder.net> References: <200507101736.22061.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i-fullermd.2 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 17:00:42 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2005 at 11:25:23PM -0700 I heard the voice of David Schwartz, and lo! it spake thus: > > > On Sunday 10 July 2005 08:16 pm, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > Thank you. I am against patents all together. . . :-D Well, I wasn't the one who said that... but I'm going to agree with it anyway, just for kicks 8-} > If there was no patent system, the same effect would be achieved by > contracts and EULAs. The net effect would be the same as with > patents, except that the terms would not be limited by law and there > would not be as much public disclosure. No, there would be one important difference; the burden of proof would be correct. If you wanted sanctions against me, you'd have to demonstrate that I stole the idea from you. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 20 02:26:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0C016A41F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:26:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org (nezlok.unixathome.org [66.154.97.250]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3A443D55 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:26:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1466256D0 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nezlok.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (nezlok.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 63583-04 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (CPE0004aca374af-CM0011e67a4a3b.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [70.26.229.230]) by nezlok.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EED5909 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [10.55.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F6C73D3B for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:11:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:11:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <42DD7AA6.23725.14A29917@localhost> Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.21c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at unixathome.org Subject: Photoshop to gimp help X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 02:26:22 -0000 I asked this near the end of May, but didn't get any takers. To boost interest, I have a copy of Absolute BSD, or Absolute OpenBSD, and a BSDCan 2005 t-shirt to trade in exchange. I want an image created with GIMP. I have a couple of PSD files and a JPG you can use as a starting point. This is the image I want to wind up with (more or less) What I really need is a GIMP file with the different elements (flag, text, daemon, etc) so that I can easily update the image from year to year. I also have these images which may help get you started: http://www.bsdcan.org/bsdcan-2004-logo.psd http://www.bsdcan.org/flag.psd Thanks! -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference - http://www.bsdcan.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 20 03:58:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4A416A41F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:58:41 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: from hosting.sourcit.net (mail3.eitsolutions.net [68.23.20.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF7A43D4C for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:58:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: (qmail 18518 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 22:58:38 -0500 Received: from al1-24.207.169.154.charter-stl.com (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (24.207.169.154) by sourcit.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 22:58:38 -0500 From: Bryan Maynard Organization: Sofos Nikitis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:57:43 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <42DD7AA6.23725.14A29917@localhost> In-Reply-To: <42DD7AA6.23725.14A29917@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507192257.43857.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Cc: Subject: Re: Photoshop to gimp help X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 03:58:41 -0000 On Wednesday 20 July 2005 02:11 am, Dan Langille wrote: > I asked this near the end of May, but didn't get any takers. To > boost interest, I have a copy of Absolute BSD, or Absolute OpenBSD, > and a BSDCan 2005 t-shirt to trade in exchange. > I want an image created with GIMP. I have a couple of PSD files and > a JPG you can use as a starting point. > This is the image I want to wind up with (more or less) > > What I really need is a GIMP file with the different elements (flag, > text, daemon, etc) so that I can easily update the image from year to > year. > I also have these images which may help get you started: > http://www.bsdcan.org/bsdcan-2004-logo.psd > http://www.bsdcan.org/flag.psd > Thanks! I'll give it a shot. . . :-D Bryan -- Open Source: by the people, for the people. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 20 04:00:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3F416A41F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:00:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from solskogen@carebears.mine.nu) Received: from mail42.e.nsc.no (mail42.e.nsc.no [193.213.115.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C25643D45 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:00:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from solskogen@carebears.mine.nu) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (062249172002.customer.alfanett.no [62.249.172.2]) by mail42.nsc.no (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6K40njM011241; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:00:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) by carebears.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3568F27E5BC; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:00:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from carebears.mine.nu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tenderheart.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 69596-02; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from carebears.mine.nu (localhost.carebears.net [127.0.0.1]) by carebears.mine.nu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D2527E514; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 062249172002.customer.alfanett.no ([62.249.172.2]) (SquirrelMail authenticated user solskogen) by carebears.mine.nu with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:00:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <2148.62.249.172.2.1121832048.squirrel@carebears.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: <42DD7AA6.23725.14A29917@localhost> References: <42DD7AA6.23725.14A29917@localhost> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:00:48 +0200 (CEST) From: "Christer Solskogen" To: "Dan Langille" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: by amavis at tenderheart.carebears.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Photoshop to gimp help X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 04:00:54 -0000 On Wed, July 20, 2005 04:11, Dan Langille wrote: > I asked this near the end of May, but didn't get any takers. To > boost interest, I have a copy of Absolute BSD, or Absolute OpenBSD, > and a BSDCan 2005 t-shirt to trade in exchange. > > I want an image created with GIMP. I have a couple of PSD files and > a JPG you can use as a starting point. > > This is the image I want to wind up with (more or less) > > > > What I really need is a GIMP file with the different elements (flag, > text, daemon, etc) so that I can easily update the image from year to > year. > > I also have these images which may help get you started: > > http://www.bsdcan.org/bsdcan-2004-logo.psd > http://www.bsdcan.org/flag.psd > > Thanks! > I`m not a very good artist, but gimme some time and I`ll work something out. -- cso From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 20 06:35:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8AF516A41F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:35:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: from hosting.sourcit.net (mail3.eitsolutions.net [68.23.20.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9F743D45 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:35:22 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from bryan.maynard@reallm.com) Received: (qmail 21609 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 01:35:21 -0500 Received: from al1-24.207.169.154.charter-stl.com (HELO ?192.168.1.101?) (24.207.169.154) by sourcit.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 01:35:21 -0500 From: Bryan Maynard Organization: Sofos Nikitis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "Dan Langille" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 01:34:25 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.8.1 References: <42DD7AA6.23725.14A29917@localhost> <200507192257.43857.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> In-Reply-To: <200507192257.43857.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200507200134.26542.bryan.maynard@reallm.com> Cc: Subject: Re: Photoshop to gimp help X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 06:35:23 -0000 [Previous text removed] Well. . . Here's what I got: http://reallm.com/images/bsdcan-2004-logo.jpg And here's the GIMP .xcf file: http://reallm.com/images/bsdcan-2004-logo.xcf If you have any problems or would like me to change anything, please let me know - I'd be happy too :-) If you decide to you my image, please e-mail me so we can work out getting the book and shirt (Woo Hoo!) :-D Also, please let me know of any other ways I could be of assistance. . . I really love FreeBSD (and want to learn Net and OpenBSD very badly) and would love to help however possible :-) Thanks, Bryan -- Open Source: by the people, for the people. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 20 20:24:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2A916A41F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:24:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0272C43D46 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:24:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v7.1.0.R) with ESMTP id md50000596582.msg for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:21:43 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:23:23 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050719170036.GF84047@over-yonder.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:21:43 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:21:46 -0700 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 20:24:15 -0000 > On Mon, Jul 18, 2005 at 11:25:23PM -0700 I heard the voice of > David Schwartz, and lo! it spake thus: > > If there was no patent system, the same effect would be achieved by > > contracts and EULAs. The net effect would be the same as with > > patents, except that the terms would not be limited by law and there > > would not be as much public disclosure. > No, there would be one important difference; the burden of proof would > be correct. If you wanted sanctions against me, you'd have to > demonstrate that I stole the idea from you. The standard of proof in civil cases is simply a preponderance of the evidence. Establishing that an idea is not obvious is evidence that two people didn't develop it independently. So given that the idea is not obvious and the person saying you stole it developed it first, the burden of proof would be on you to establish that you didn't. If you can refute his claim to non-obviousness or first development, you'd win against a patent anyway. Essentially, the test would be exactly the same. The only difference would be if you somehow had strong evidence that you developed it independently. It's hard to image what that could be. Against this miniscule benefit would be two huge losses: 1) What is and is not protected would be not be clearly defined in documents that become public. Scope of protection would likely be *larger*, especially if the person protecting has more money than the suspected infringer. 2) The terms would not be limited to 20 years for non-obvious ideas that become so well known that it's essentially impossible to develop them independently. What would almost definitely happen in just such a case is a fix for these problems similar to the patent system we have now. The huge benefit to the public of guaranteed limited terms, public disclosure, absence of need for millions of non-disclosure agreements, and defined precise scope of protection hugely outweigh the small price that if two people really do independently develop the same non-obvious idea within 20 years, only the one who developed it first can use it for the remaining time. DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 21 07:42:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4D616A41F for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:42:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Jan.Grant@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from dirg.bris.ac.uk (dirg.bris.ac.uk [137.222.10.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47A943D45 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:42:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Jan.Grant@bristol.ac.uk) Received: from mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk ([137.222.16.62]) by dirg.bris.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.51) id 1DvVhZ-0006D2-Al; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:42:43 +0100 Received: from cmjg (helo=localhost) by mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DvVhX-0001PP-S0; Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:42:40 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:42:39 +0100 (BST) From: Jan Grant X-X-Sender: cmjg@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk To: David Schwartz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Jan Grant X-Spam-Score: -2.8 X-Spam-Level: -- Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, fullermd@over-yonder.net Subject: RE: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:42:47 -0000 On Wed, 20 Jul 2005, David Schwartz wrote: > The standard of proof in civil cases is simply a preponderance of the > evidence. Establishing that an idea is not obvious is evidence that two > people didn't develop it independently. I'm sure Newton would love this definition; Leibniz wouldn't. -- jan grant, ILRT, University of Bristol. http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ Tel +44 (0)117 9287088 or 3317661 http://ioctl.org/jan/ "NOP" is a trivial implementation of an executable Z subset. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 22 23:09:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EDD16A41F for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:09:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (adsl-19-148-33.jan.bellsouth.net [68.19.148.33]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E613B43D48 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:09:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id C4B5221008; Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:09:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:09:21 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: David Schwartz Message-ID: <20050722230921.GB32805@over-yonder.net> References: <20050719170036.GF84047@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i-fullermd.2 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Software patents and FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:09:24 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2005 at 01:23:23PM -0700 I heard the voice of David Schwartz, and lo! it spake thus: > > The standard of proof in civil cases is simply a preponderance of > the evidence. Oh, quite true. A problem that needs to be resolved independant of the patent issue, though, so it's really just a footnote. And thoroughly plowed ground, at that. > Establishing that an idea is not obvious is evidence that two people > didn't develop it independently. That doesn't follow at all, however. In fact, we already have incontrovertible proof that it CAN be developed independantly (otherwise, the first person couldn't have developed it, unless he stole it from someone else, who would've had to've stolen it from someone else, who...). Statistical unlikeliness is no particular form of proof, any more than proving I wasn't in Timbuktu on March 14th supplies proof (or even evidence) that I was responsible for a murder in Switzerland on that day. And heck, even if you could prove that I'm too stupid or too unknowledgeable about the subject to have come up with the mechanism independantly, that still wouldn't establish anything about the case, because I could just as easily have stolen it from a THIRD party who developed it independantly (and while THEY might then have a case against me, that doesn't give YOU a case against me). The burden of proof thus remains squarely where it belongs; if you can't demonstrate that I stole your process, you don't and shouldn't have any standing to call down sanctions on me. > Against this miniscule benefit would be two huge losses: Well, considering I don't buy your argument that such proof is nigh-on automatic, it's hardly a miniscule benefit 8-} Further, even putting aside the other moral and economic issues, there are additional downsides to the whole patent concept. For instance: Nor is it by any means self-evident even that patents encourage an increase in the absolute quantity of research expenditures. But certainly we can say that patents distort the allocation of factors on the /type/ of research being conducted. For while it is true that the /first/ discoverer benefits from the privilege, it is also true that his competitors are excluded from production in the area of the patent for many years. And since a later patent can build on an earlier, related one in the same field, competitors can often be discouraged indefinitely from further research expenditures in the general area covered by the patent. Moreover, the patentee himself is discouraged from engaging in further research in this field, for the privilege permits him to rest on his laurels for the entire period of the patent, with the assurance that no competitor can trespass on his domain. The competitive spur to further research is eliminated. Research expentiures, therefore, are /overstimulated/ in the early stages before anyone has a patent and /unduly restricted/ in the period after the patent is received. In addition, some inventions are considered patentable, while others are not. The patent system thus has the further effect of artificially stimulating research expenditures in the /patentable/ areas, while artificially restricting research in the /nonpatentable/ areas. [0] Yet more, besides the incentive for the patentee to rest on his laurels, there's further incentive to NOT search hard for improvements, as finding a "better way" would tend only to cannibalize his assured monopoly to no advantage, since his competitors are already discouraged from poking at the field. So, in addition to the monopoly grant of privilege, the presumption of guilt on the part of the defendant, and the potential overstimulation of research expenditure in general, we've added distortion of the research process within a specific area, and even within a specific person. Hardly an innocuous process :) > 1) What is and is not protected would be not be clearly defined in > documents that become public. Scope of protection would likely be *larger*, > especially if the person protecting has more money than the suspected > infringer. Indeed. They'd have more control over their own work. What's the problem? > 2) The terms would not be limited to 20 years for non-obvious ideas that > become so well known that it's essentially impossible to develop them > independently. See above 8-} In any event, we're not talking about ideas, but rather implementations. You can write and copyright a program module that, say, imports a CSV into a spreadsheet. But you don't have any standing to restrict me from writing one doing the same thing, except insofar as I use your code to do it. Nor, under any circumstances, do I have any standing to claim a right to use your code without your permission. You can't protect one person's property rights by violating another's. [0] Murray Rothbard, _Power and Market_, p. 1136. Emphasis in original. See also, if you're sufficiently bored, the whole subsection on patents, pp. 1133-1138. Page references given for the combined edition _Man, Economy, and State with Power and Market_ (Auburn, Alabama; Ludwig von Mises Institute, 2004). -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream.