From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 00:15:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF4016A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:15:15 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DBF43D45 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:15:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i4so795888wra for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VPdiVL98K/dDTLF2lFvq+Lk9yQm201uuRhaFhI6uK2Gkqao2eCQw2iEqt+lLIQWSMmB+MUTYneTuKhPXyxBUsONE9rWsesmWFvy+CppUJcEE4DyGIpnjhF5gM/xgvWjKxpttLKM8yL5DtFPL5xSemRJx/A7ZU2+1NuPNjEKC1xE= Received: by 10.54.124.17 with SMTP id w17mr676782wrc; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.124.11 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:15:08 -0500 From: Nikolas Britton To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:15:15 -0000 On 8/20/05, somebody wrote: > [Replying off-list, as I'm sure some FreeBSDers will consider this > hyposcrisy. :-) ] >=20 > On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:47:27 -0500 > Nikolas Britton wrote: >=20 > >=20 > > Anyone here ever think of putting together BSDLinux, FreeBSD with a > > Linux kernel? I'll have to start a thread over on chat or something. >=20 > There is a Debian project working on exactly this thing. It's being > called "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD" currently. Check out the following url for > more information: http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ >=20 That's completely opposite to what I want to do. "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is a port that consists of GNU userland using the GNU C library on top of FreeBSD's kernel" This is what I want: "BSD/Linux is a port that consists of FreeBSD userland using the FreeBSD C library on top of the Linux kernel" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 00:15:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1444A16A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:15:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BDD43D45 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:15:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local (Exim 4.44) id 1E6dUs-00070I-Ed; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:34 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Christer Solskogen In-Reply-To: <20050820214917.27512ea6@wish.carebears.net> Message-ID: References: <20050820214917.27512ea6@wish.carebears.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StarBSD OS and Star OS -- Was: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:15:36 -0000 On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Christer Solskogen wrote: >> You mention "pkgsrc" -- I use pkgsrc to build entire Linux >> distributions for a couple years. > > hmm? Is that possible? Definitely. I do "use" it. > That would be a cool project. Did you use tutorial, or something for > that? No tutorial. Just a lot of trial and error and lots of work. I packaged up every component considered to be needed by a normal Linux install (except for packages already available in pkgsrc). I committed almost all to pkgsrc-wip (work in progress playground) and some fixes to regular pkgsrc. I packaged linux-kernel, glibc, util-linux, linux-nfs-utils, sysvinit, vixie-cron, iptables, and many, many others. A tutorial: - build or download Linux "pkgsrc" packages for glibc, gcc, pkg_install, bash, pax, db2, util-linux, coreutils, awk, find, etc... (I recently learned that someone is using NetBSD host to cross compile my Linux packages for Linux ... an article should be coming soon.) - no installer, so boot with a Linux live CD. - fdisk partition - mkfs partition - mount partition - tar extract glibc, pkg_install, pax, coreutils, etc. - chroot to new environment - use pkg_add to install other packages as needed - install lilo or grub and setup boot loader - install sysvinit package - set up inittab and startup shell scripts as needed (I use rc.d system and have a package with some core configurations that I have used for a couple years ... I need to import to pkgsrc-wip.) - setup /etc/fstab - reboot I use LOCALBASE=/usr for my Linux packages which does have a few flaws, such as you can't deinstall libz and other crucial packages doing work. I use a chroot jail to build packages and use FORCE_PKG_REGISTER for a few packages when installing. I use a custom pkg_add that has an option to overwrite a package instead of deleting first for upgrading. http://linux.pugetsoundtechnology.com/faq/ Jeremy C. Reed p.s. The download site is changed. I need to commit some fixes for glibc package. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 00:55:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AF916A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:55:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.200]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F4C43D48 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:55:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i4so798324wra for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:55:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fEzAsKhr0jqCxuusJe0xKt7iM/vF+cmrfYEl4Z7eJRYIhne7P0nBLvWztJvWJkvyf8Dns/oZrKwFjdWyjloYmUkJhTU6QKEf30bxaivN0PK0Xf/uFHmt9jORWlu1DKndRq/C9mDpp+YCM4skCnokIxDw0jAESzMJJ0W4e4hgoyY= Received: by 10.54.11.37 with SMTP id 37mr79121wrk; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.124.11 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:55:09 -0500 From: Nikolas Britton To: David Kelly In-Reply-To: <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:55:13 -0000 On 8/20/05, David Kelly wrote: > While we're at it in addition to FreeBSD runtime stuff why don't we > also port the FreeBSD kernel to Linux? >=20 > With a FreeBSD kernel on Linux wouldn't it be much easier to port the > FreeBSD runtime stuff? :-) We do sorta have one, it's in the kernel: options COMPAT_43 # Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THI= S!] options COMPAT_FREEBSD4 # Compatible with FreeBSD4 options COMPAT_FREEBSD5 # Compatible with FreeBSD5 >=20 > Could be as simple as removing Beastie and replacing him with Tux. Oh god no! Never, though Tux is better then that dam GNU cow. I was thinking more along the lines of stealing Glenda, the Plan 9 bunny (-: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/glenda.html > We'll just change our name to Linux. I don't like it at all. Then > again I don't suffer from Linux-envy but thought it was time to knock > some back to reality. Who's Reality? And It's not really a Linux envy thing (I'd be using a Linux distro then and we'd never had this chat) but an appreciation of what the Linux kernel could do (for BSD). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 01:06:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94AE16A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:06:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: from opusnet.com (mail.opusnet.com [209.210.200.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5068543D46 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:06:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: from localhost.localhost [70.98.246.232] by opusnet.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id A39719CB00D2; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:06:31 -0700 Received: from localhost.localhost (localhost.localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localhost (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j7L17okA019586; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:07:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localhost (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j7L17emo019585; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) To: Diane Bruce References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> From: garys@opusnet.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:07:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> (Diane Bruce's message of "Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:15:49 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.17 (Jumbo Shrimp, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:06:40 -0000 Diane Bruce writes: > I personally can't be bothered wasting my time putting a bsd userland > on top of a linux kernel, but I would like to see RMS scream. There goes > his claim to "Gnu/linux", as Linus himself last I read, was indifferent > to the license. Linus has expressed his preference for viral, no-derivation-without-payment-in-the- form-of-cross-licensing licenses; i.e., copyleft licenses, e.g., FSF GPL. He likened the freedom of the BSDL and the public domain to anarchy. In reply to other msgs: Based on a quick reading of the web site linked from www.MirBSD.de, it's formally named "MirOS BSD" and basically an OpenBSD with a Linux kernel, but there is or will be other versions. GPL'd software in base FreeBSD includes a lot of code and it would be hard to replace. I don't know if RMS calls it a "GNU system". A fairly complete list: addr2line (a binutil) ar (a binutil) as (a binutil) as (in gnu/usr.bin) gawk bc cc cpio cvs dc dialog(1) and libdialog diff diff3 doc (a binutil) g++ and libg++ gasp (a binutil) gawk (see awk) gcc and libgcc gdb (a binutil) gdbreplay (a binutil) gdbserver (a binutil) gperf grep groff gtar gzip (including gzexe, zdiff, zforce, zgrep, zmore, znew) ld (a binutil) ld (in gnu/usr.bin) libbfd (a binutil) libbinutils (a binutil) libg2c (g2c program & manpage in a port) libgcc_r (no manpage?) libgmp (no manpage?) libiberty (a binutil) libmp (no manpage?) libobjc (no manpage?) libopcodes (a binutil) libreadline (no manpage?) libregex, but not regex(3) manpage libstdc++ code (no manpage?) man mdoc = groff_mdoc manpage nm (a binutil) objcopy (a binutil) objdump (a binutil) patch perl ptx ranlib (a binutil) rcs readelf (a binutil) sdiff send-pr size (a binutil) sort strings (a binutil) strip (a binutil) texinfo update.sh (a binutil) uucp whatis(1) & apropos(1) (share code and manpage, manpage not FSF) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 01:34:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7057216A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:34:27 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.202]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FD743D48 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:34:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i4so800772wra for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:34:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=FGfqs206qBmTF/Yd9/e80ALNvjTll3p1gzdOC9WwjJAiyen6/LNibrYF9UciB03NXj6/Sloclfsqhr8Kc1OFfAv82RjQkFX9Nhprqqd2nMtdkCzQ3EUGqFfiX16RRXW3U2dcx+B1kBfgFCIVVRN55nmdPEVZUiUQB+owmB/S7ec= Received: by 10.54.130.12 with SMTP id c12mr718337wrd; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.124.11 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:34:26 -0500 From: Nikolas Britton To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:34:27 -0000 On 8/20/05, somebody wrote: > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:04:31 -0500 > Nikolas Britton wrote: >=20 > > On 8/20/05, somebody wrote: > > > [Replying off-list, as I'm sure some FreeBSDers will consider this > > > hyposcrisy. :-) ] > > > > > > On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:47:27 -0500 > > > Nikolas Britton wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone here ever think of putting together BSDLinux, FreeBSD with > > > > a Linux kernel? I'll have to start a thread over on chat or > > > > something. > > > > > > There is a Debian project working on exactly this thing. It's being > > > called "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD" currently. Check out the following url > > > for more information: http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ > > > > > > > That's completely opposite to what I want to do > > > > "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is a port that consists of GNU userland using the > > GNU C library on top of FreeBSD's kernel" > > > > This is what I want: > > > > "BSD/Linux is a port that consists of FreeBSD userland using the > > FreeBSD C library on top of the Linux kernel" > > > > I have a thread going on this over in the freebsd chat list >=20 > Yep, sorry. I misread your original post. >=20 > I tried googling and searching on freebsd.org for your thread, but can't > find it... what would be the purpose of the way you propose? It seems to > me the FreeBSD kernel is usually regarded as having better security and > speed and the Linux userland has more software available (without having > to install a Linux compat package). >=20 http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2005-August/thread.html Mainly for drivers (proprietary closed ones) and the millions of resources (money and man-power) that are already working on it. You could also hopefully run proprietary Linux apps (Oracle, DB2, Novell, etc.) naively or at least more naively then we have now. Also to beat back GNU/SysV style UNIX and put BSD style UNIX back on top for world domination. And it would be a fun project. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 01:38:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9011E16A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:38:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6F543D45 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:38:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from nikolas.britton@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i4so801092wra for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:38:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=PtXHpn5Lq0RbjfpJTiLlQRP11sIW9iLaCDaU7U60TiOnA8cQMKN9fDbf5W50B7+9JaFvtVdC0jMEFCgEf4xIjdGzQKewYHvO2xEmB7nTziIJ7+RJ1/Z6lXzGZJttpIIQsZsdO5LcaVPBLKErJi8hfq6VvX0IhiGX/ZRp4zjsQhI= Received: by 10.54.6.50 with SMTP id 50mr727189wrf; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.124.11 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:38:46 -0500 From: Nikolas Britton To: "Gary W. Swearingen" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> Cc: Diane Bruce , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 01:38:50 -0000 On 8/20/05, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Diane Bruce writes: >=20 > > I personally can't be bothered wasting my time putting a bsd userland > > on top of a linux kernel, but I would like to see RMS scream. There goe= s > > his claim to "Gnu/linux", as Linus himself last I read, was indifferent > > to the license. >=20 > Linus has expressed his preference for viral, > no-derivation-without-payment-in-the- form-of-cross-licensing > licenses; i.e., copyleft licenses, e.g., FSF GPL. He likened > the freedom of the BSDL and the public domain to anarchy. >=20 >=20 > In reply to other msgs: >=20 > Based on a quick reading of the web site linked from www.MirBSD.de, > it's formally named "MirOS BSD" and basically an OpenBSD with a Linux > kernel, but there is or will be other versions. >=20 > GPL'd software in base FreeBSD includes a lot of code and it would be > hard to replace. I don't know if RMS calls it a "GNU system". >=20 You have Perl on that list but Perl is not GPL. "Perl is Open Source software. It's free for you to download and use as you wish. Perl's license is called the Artistic license. Read it if you aren't sure what you can or can't do. The bottom line is that this is a kinder and gentler version of the GNU license -- one that doesn't infect your work if you care to borrow from Perl or package up pieces of it as part of a commercial product!" -perl.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 02:05:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F274316A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:05:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8226243D45 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:05:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from reed@pilchuck.reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local (Exim 4.44) id 1E6fDC-0002x2-LV for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:05:26 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: "Jeremy C. Reed" Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:05:27 -0000 On Sat, 20 Aug 2005, Nikolas Britton wrote: > You have Perl on that list but Perl is not GPL. > > "Perl is Open Source software. It's free for you to download and use > as you wish. Perl's license is called the Artistic license. Read it if > you aren't sure what you can or can't do. The bottom line is that this > is a kinder and gentler version of the GNU license -- one that doesn't > infect your work if you care to borrow from Perl or package up pieces > of it as part of a commercial product!" -perl.com man perlartistic It is not GPL, but confusing and unfree enough. My understanding: If you modify, you must place your modifications in public domain, or make freely available, or give back to perl, or use changes only within your own organization. You may not charge for perl other than reasonable copying fee or for professional support. You may not sell a product that includes embedded perl unless the complete standard version of perl interpreter is included (so no derivative). Compare with nawk (not to say awk is as usable though): you may modify and distribute any way you want and you may charge any price you want for a product based on any part of it. (Just don't use the copyright owner's name and include the very brief copyright and permission notice in your documentation.) Jeremy C. Reed BSD News, BSD tutorials, BSD links http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 02:41:52 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A98316A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:41:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from mxsf03.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf03.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.203]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494BA43D46 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:41:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from beyert@cs.ucr.edu) Received: from mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.143]) by mxsf03.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j7L2fnje026244 for ; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:41:49 -0400 Received: from 66-215-246-57.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com (HELO aeonserv.aeonnet) (66.215.246.57) by mxip13a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2005 22:41:49 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,128,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1461303055:sNHT16034164" Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:45:42 -0700 Message-ID: <878xywypm1.wl%beyert@cs.ucr.edu> From: Timothy Beyer To: Nikolas Britton In-Reply-To: References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 MULE XEmacs/21.4 (patch 17) (Jumbo Shrimp) (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: Diane Bruce , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:41:52 -0000 > > On 8/20/05, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Diane Bruce writes: > > > > > I personally can't be bothered wasting my time putting a bsd userland > > > on top of a linux kernel, but I would like to see RMS scream. There goes > > > his claim to "Gnu/linux", as Linus himself last I read, was indifferent > > > to the license. > > > > Linus has expressed his preference for viral, > > no-derivation-without-payment-in-the- form-of-cross-licensing > > licenses; i.e., copyleft licenses, e.g., FSF GPL. He likened > > the freedom of the BSDL and the public domain to anarchy. > > > > > > In reply to other msgs: > > > > Based on a quick reading of the web site linked from www.MirBSD.de, > > it's formally named "MirOS BSD" and basically an OpenBSD with a Linux > > kernel, but there is or will be other versions. > > > > GPL'd software in base FreeBSD includes a lot of code and it would be > > hard to replace. I don't know if RMS calls it a "GNU system". > > > > You have Perl on that list but Perl is not GPL. > > "Perl is Open Source software. It's free for you to download and use > as you wish. Perl's license is called the Artistic license. Read it if > you aren't sure what you can or can't do. The bottom line is that this > is a kinder and gentler version of the GNU license -- one that doesn't > infect your work if you care to borrow from Perl or package up pieces > of it as part of a commercial product!" -perl.com That's true, perl is definitely not GNU software, but the artistic license is so confusing that is often hard to tell what it really means. Keep in mind that perl is dual-licensed, as noted on perl.org: "Perl is Open Source software, licensed under its Artistic License, or the GNU General Public License (GPL)." Does anyone know if the artistic license can be interpreted in the spirit of the BSD license? I used to have a very low opinion of the license, but I recently reread it and I think it may not be a copyleft license depending on the options selected in clauses #3(a or c, depending on need) and #4 (a or c, depending on need) However clause #5 bothers me. "You may not charge a fee for this Package itself." As far as I know, the artistic license appears to be a non-commercial except for "a reasonable copying fee," or "any fee you choose for support of this package," although clause #8 seems to be a very liberal exception to very specific aspects of this rule. I don't really get this license. --Tim From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Aug 21 02:56:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1821D16A41F for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:56:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: from opusnet.com (mail.opusnet.com [209.210.200.6]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9DD43D45 for ; Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:56:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: from localhost.localhost [70.98.246.232] by opusnet.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.05) id AD3D2A7900A4; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:55:57 -0700 Received: from localhost.localhost (localhost.localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localhost (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j7L2vGLQ021183; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:57:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localhost (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id j7L2vAqe021182; Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garys@opusnet.com) To: Nikolas Britton References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> From: garys@opusnet.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:57:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Nikolas Britton's message of "Sat, 20 Aug 2005 20:38:46 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.17 (Jumbo Shrimp, berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 02:56:02 -0000 Nikolas Britton writes: > You have Perl on that list but Perl is not GPL. Uh, yeah; that was from my fairly-new "badly-licensed" file and it hasn't been well checked. I must have grabbed it because I found "/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/". Note also "/usr/src/contrib/perl5/Copying", which is the GNU GPL. Perl is actually "dual licensed" and both are bad, IMO, but then I doubt that many will want to rewrite the thing anyway. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 22 16:28:59 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CD416A41F for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:28:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C00D43D48 for ; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:28:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] ([69.27.149.254]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j7MGSpiB032192; Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:28:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <4309FD3D.5030105@daleco.biz> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:28:45 -0500 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050709 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@freebsd.org References: <4306EAB7.4090001@skyforge.net> <20050820212745.GA2998@night.db.net> <1515C667-4333-4147-BA3E-E04C2ED8382A@HiWAAY.net> <20050820231549.GB3909@night.db.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Re: BSDLinux OS X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:28:59 -0000 Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Perl is actually "dual licensed" and both are bad, IMO, but then >I doubt that many will want to rewrite the thing anyway. > > That last phrase produces a bit of a guffaw* ... thanks much! KDK *Oh, and I do agree, of course. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Aug 23 21:26:59 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56EB16A41F for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:26:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl (pastinakel.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B9A43D46 for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:26:59 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D1014BBB3; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:26:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (pastinakel.tue.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00840-05; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:26:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pcwin002.win.tue.nl (pcwin002.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.72]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2248814BB74; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:26:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from stijn@localhost) by pcwin002.win.tue.nl (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j7NLQnYx071129; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:26:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stijn) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:26:49 +0200 From: Stijn Hoop To: Matt Emmerton Message-ID: <20050823212649.GD67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> References: <20050823124028.GA67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> <009e01c5a825$47e84d70$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <009e01c5a825$47e84d70$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Bright-Idea: Let's abolish HTML mail! X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tue.nl Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Andreas Hauser , Eric Anderson , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Andrew Gallatin Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:26:59 -0000 --HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [redirecting to -chat because this topic isn't -current by a longshot] On Tue, Aug 23, 2005 at 04:57:26PM -0400, Matt Emmerton wrote: > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Stijn Hoop" > To: "Andreas Hauser" > Cc: ; "Eric Anderson" > ; "Devon H.O'Dell" ; "Andr= ew > Gallatin" > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 8:40 AM > Subject: fontsize and dpi (was Re: Beta2: Nice job!) >=20 > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2005 at 06:57:48PM -0000, Andreas Hauser wrote: > > > dodell wrote @ Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:01:50 -0700: > > > > They all use Bitstream Vera at a > ridiculously small font size > > > > > > startx -- -dpi 100 > > > better ? > > > > Why this isn't already the default is beyond me... Or am I miscalculati= ng > > dpi with the standard 1280x1024 17" flatpanel? > > > > --Stijn >=20 > Your calculations appear to be fine. > Your assumptions that everyone has a display that is equivalent or better > than a 1280x1024 17" flatpanel, thus making change in the defaults > reasonable, are very false. OK, I freely admit that I haven't any clue as to the general population's resolution. I know that I don't see anything lower than 1280x1024 17" around me, and I'm used to student budgets... But I know that those sometimes aren't as tight as they appear to be, and there are of course lots of older CRTs still working perfectly fine. --Stijn --=20 The problem is that there are several people in design positions now who couldn't design the Next Big Thing(TM) unless it involved them taking a photocopier and someone else's design of The Next Big Thing(TM). -- 'Alkaiser' in a post on Slashdot on game originality --HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFDC5SZY3r/tLQmfWcRAibsAJ9ulOVxbQEJIJw7DioePzPifae0AQCfd/Qe 9zcEiQCYNZ7Wpu8gdCQ92sM= =HZJH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 08:43:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE91B16A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:43:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl (pastinakel.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C7843D48 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:43:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26E114BE87; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (pastinakel.tue.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 50581-01-3; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:43:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pcwin002.win.tue.nl (pcwin002.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.72]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A7614BE11; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:38:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from stijn@localhost) by pcwin002.win.tue.nl (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j7O8c2qm073996; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:38:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stijn) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:38:02 +0200 From: Stijn Hoop To: Stefan Ehmann Message-ID: <20050824083802.GG67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> References: <17161.55733.272571.61428@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20050822140150.GB27233@raqdevil.offmyserver.com> <20050822185748.22499.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <20050823124028.GA67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> <1124872145.1476.5.camel@taxman.pepperland> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GpGaEY17fSl8rd50" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1124872145.1476.5.camel@taxman.pepperland> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Bright-Idea: Let's abolish HTML mail! X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tue.nl Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Andreas Hauser , Eric Anderson , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Andrew Gallatin Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi (was Re: Beta2: Nice job!) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:43:38 -0000 --GpGaEY17fSl8rd50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [once again to -chat] On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 10:29:04AM +0200, Stefan Ehmann wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 14:40 +0200, Stijn Hoop wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2005 at 06:57:48PM -0000, Andreas Hauser wrote: > > > dodell wrote @ Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:01:50 -0700: > > > > They all use Bitstream Vera at a > ridiculously small font size > > >=20 > > > startx -- -dpi 100 > > > better ? > >=20 > > Why this isn't already the default is beyond me... Or am I miscalculati= ng > > dpi with the standard 1280x1024 17" flatpanel? >=20 > I find 100 dpi unusable on my 1280x1024 17" TFT (which is the default > here). >=20 > Most applications pretty much ignore those settings. But e.g. konqueror > fonts are ridiculously big. I forced it back to 75dpi via DisplaySize in > my xorg.conf and it looks much better for me. Yes, but you are still lying to X. Your display (at that resolution) has ~100dpi. If you want smaller font sizes, say so in the KDE control panel. If you want the default changed, convince more people to run their desktop at the right DPI, and see whether they notice the same. I don't know when X gained the capability to decipher this on its own, but I know that lots of people were running with 75dpi on 100dpi monitors, resulting in horrible default fonts etc. One of the problems with webpages in *nix vs Windows, differing fontsizes, is caused by exactly this. --Stijn --=20 "I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get." --GpGaEY17fSl8rd50 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFDDDHqY3r/tLQmfWcRAhpxAJ0QO++7EcUvND9ThkK3O/EhgEewJgCeMuyp z/fARBKSLBoCMsBfzYTIzrg= =s1DF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GpGaEY17fSl8rd50-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 09:45:17 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7918E16A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:45:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1AE43D45 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:45:16 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB236143; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:44:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C57610B; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:44:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C46A333CA7; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:45:09 +0200 (CEST) To: Stijn Hoop References: <17161.55733.272571.61428@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20050822140150.GB27233@raqdevil.offmyserver.com> <20050822185748.22499.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <20050823124028.GA67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> <1124872145.1476.5.camel@taxman.pepperland> <20050824083802.GG67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:45:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20050824083802.GG67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> (Stijn Hoop's message of "Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:38:02 +0200") Message-ID: <86zmr78y8q.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on tim.des.no Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Andreas Hauser , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:45:17 -0000 Stijn Hoop writes: > I don't know when X gained the capability to decipher this on its own, but > I know that lots of people were running with 75dpi on 100dpi monitors, > resulting in horrible default fonts etc. One of the problems with webpages > in *nix vs Windows, differing fontsizes, is caused by exactly this. X will correctly determine the physical resolution on DDC-capable monitors (with a DDC-capable graphics adapter, of course). Otherwise, it assumes 75dpi. You can of course specify the correct resolution on the command line, or (better yet) specify the display dimensions in the configuration file and let X figure out the resolution. BTW, back in the bad old days before Xft, X had 75dpi and 100dpi renderings of most fonts and no good way to adapt those to intermediate resolutions. This is still the case for the most commonly used monospace fonts. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 10:32:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4468B16A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:32:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl (pastinakel.tue.nl [131.155.2.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3BE43D45 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:32:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DC014BDCE; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:32:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pastinakel.tue.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (pastinakel.tue.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 63290-01-6; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:31:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pcwin002.win.tue.nl (pcwin002.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.72]) by pastinakel.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30D114BDF1; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:15:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from stijn@localhost) by pcwin002.win.tue.nl (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j7OAF1U5074505; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:15:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stijn) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:15:01 +0200 From: Stijn Hoop To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav Message-ID: <20050824101501.GH67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> References: <17161.55733.272571.61428@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> <20050822140150.GB27233@raqdevil.offmyserver.com> <20050822185748.22499.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <20050823124028.GA67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> <1124872145.1476.5.camel@taxman.pepperland> <20050824083802.GG67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> <86zmr78y8q.fsf@xps.des.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VUDLurXRWRKrGuMn" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86zmr78y8q.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Bright-Idea: Let's abolish HTML mail! X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tue.nl Cc: Andrew Gallatin , Andreas Hauser , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:32:12 -0000 --VUDLurXRWRKrGuMn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 11:45:09AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Stijn Hoop writes: > > I don't know when X gained the capability to decipher this on its own, = but > > I know that lots of people were running with 75dpi on 100dpi monitors, > > resulting in horrible default fonts etc. One of the problems with webpa= ges > > in *nix vs Windows, differing fontsizes, is caused by exactly this. >=20 > X will correctly determine the physical resolution on DDC-capable > monitors (with a DDC-capable graphics adapter, of course). Otherwise, > it assumes 75dpi. You can of course specify the correct resolution on > the command line, or (better yet) specify the display dimensions in > the configuration file and let X figure out the resolution. Yeah, I discovered that earlier in this thread. A nifty feature. The thing I was arguing against is the default of 75dpi in the absence of DDC (I run into this because of a crappy KVM switch). However, having no substantial evidence as to the common monitorsize and screen resolution, I don't know anymore whether it should be changed. > BTW, back in the bad old days before Xft, X had 75dpi and 100dpi > renderings of most fonts and no good way to adapt those to > intermediate resolutions. This is still the case for the most > commonly used monospace fonts. And like I wrote earlier, IMHO the TTF fonts are so much nicer than the 75dpi and 100dpi ones, that I promptly deinstall those two everywhere I can. But this is clearly a matter of personal preference. --Stijn --=20 There are of course many problems connected with life, of which some of the most popular are 'Why are people born?', 'Why do they die?', and `Why do they spend so much of the intervening time wearing digital watches?' -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy" --VUDLurXRWRKrGuMn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFDDEilY3r/tLQmfWcRAlIAAJ9jD8e8QNEckbwgonKZOFDgm0ReYgCdHyNd M+5NZYryo1F0CzUkF5VeEBs= =Z60k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VUDLurXRWRKrGuMn-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 11:34:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95AD16A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:34:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ah@paladin.fortunaty.net) Received: from paladin.fortunaty.net (paladin.fortunaty.net [217.160.129.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B56B43D45 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:34:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ah@paladin.fortunaty.net) Received: (qmail 31000 invoked by uid 501); 24 Aug 2005 09:23:49 -0000 Date: 24 Aug 2005 09:23:49 -0000 Message-ID: <20050824092349.30999.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> User-Agent: Emai/0.0.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050824083802.GG67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> (Stijn Hoop's message of "Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:38:02 +0200") <86zmr78y8q.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86zmr78y8q.fsf@xps.des.no> From: Andreas Hauser To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-License: BSD X-Addicted: yeah Cc: , Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:34:25 -0000 des wrote @ Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:45:09 +0200: > Stijn Hoop writes: > > I don't know when X gained the capability to decipher this on its own, but > > I know that lots of people were running with 75dpi on 100dpi monitors, > > resulting in horrible default fonts etc. One of the problems with webpages > > in *nix vs Windows, differing fontsizes, is caused by exactly this. > > X will correctly determine the physical resolution on DDC-capable > monitors (with a DDC-capable graphics adapter, of course). Otherwise, > it assumes 75dpi. You can of course specify the correct resolution on > the command line, or (better yet) specify the display dimensions in > the configuration file and let X figure out the resolution. That works far from always, -dpi 100 is the only way, i know, that works no matter what. Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 11:36:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E8816A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:36:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B31943D45 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:36:21 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E903E617E; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8204E6143; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AD42633CA7; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:36:14 +0200 (CEST) To: Andreas Hauser References: <20050824083802.GG67999@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> <86zmr78y8q.fsf@xps.des.no> <20050824092349.30999.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:36:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20050824092349.30999.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> (Andreas Hauser's message of "24 Aug 2005 09:23:49 -0000") Message-ID: <86vf1v8t3l.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on tim.des.no Cc: , Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:36:21 -0000 Andreas Hauser writes: > des wrote @ Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:45:09 +0200: > > X will correctly determine the physical resolution on DDC-capable > > monitors (with a DDC-capable graphics adapter, of course). [...] > That works far from always, -dpi 100 is the only way, i know, that works = no > matter what. Buy less crappy hardware. If you bought a new graphics adapter or monitor in the past five years that doesn't support DDC, you've been had. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 11:59:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E7216A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:59:25 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ah@paladin.fortunaty.net) Received: from paladin.fortunaty.net (paladin.fortunaty.net [217.160.129.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CBDFF43D45 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:59:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ah@paladin.fortunaty.net) Received: (qmail 31195 invoked by uid 501); 24 Aug 2005 09:48:47 -0000 Date: 24 Aug 2005 09:48:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20050824094847.31194.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> User-Agent: Emai/0.0.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050824092349.30999.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> (Andreas Hauser's message of "24 Aug 2005 09:23:49 -0000") <86vf1v8t3l.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86vf1v8t3l.fsf@xps.des.no> From: Andreas Hauser To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-License: BSD X-Addicted: yeah Cc: Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:59:25 -0000 des wrote @ Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:36:14 +0200: > Andreas Hauser writes: > > des wrote @ Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:45:09 +0200: > > > X will correctly determine the physical resolution on DDC-capable > > > monitors (with a DDC-capable graphics adapter, of course). [...] > > That works far from always, -dpi 100 is the only way, i know, that works no > > matter what. > > Buy less crappy hardware. If you bought a new graphics adapter or > monitor in the past five years that doesn't support DDC, you've been > had. Oh, well if it was so easy to find less crappy hardware ... DDC support is not so much the problem but it being buggy or X doing the wrong thing with it. Notice how e.g. the Panelsize in the example posted differs from the DDC message in the log in the same email. See here e.g., it works with D-SUB but not DVI https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3654 It also works with the nvidia driver, unfortunatly there is none for freebsd/amd64. If you know of a fanless dual DVI graphics adapter that does 1600x1200 for under 100 Euro, i would gladly buy it. Currently it's a Siemens-Fujitsu OEM only nvidia 5200, dual DVI, fanless for 42 Euro, which at least would work if there was a freebsd/amd64 driver from nvidia (though i'd prefer X nv). Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 12:08:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419D916A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:08:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2B343D48 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:08:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB5B619C; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from xps.des.no (des.no [80.203.228.37]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B7B6193; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by xps.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5B59933CA7; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:40 +0200 (CEST) To: Andreas Hauser References: <20050824092349.30999.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <86vf1v8t3l.fsf@xps.des.no> <20050824094847.31194.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> From: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20050824094847.31194.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> (Andreas Hauser's message of "24 Aug 2005 09:48:47 -0000") Message-ID: <86mzn78rlj.fsf@xps.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110002 (No Gnus v0.2) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 X-Spam-Learn: ham X-Spam-Score: -5.2/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on tim.des.no Cc: Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:08:48 -0000 Andreas Hauser writes: > See here e.g., it works with D-SUB but not DVI > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D3654 > It also works with the nvidia driver, unfortunatly there is none for > freebsd/amd64. There is no reference to physical dimensions or resolution in the bug report you quote. > If you know of a fanless dual DVI graphics adapter that does 1600x1200 for > under 100 Euro, i would gladly buy it. Currently it's a Siemens-Fujitsu O= EM > only nvidia 5200, dual DVI, fanless for 42 Euro, which at least would work > if there was a freebsd/amd64 driver from nvidia (though i'd prefer X nv). Matrox Millenium G550 DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 12:24:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCA516A42B for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:24:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ah@paladin.fortunaty.net) Received: from paladin.fortunaty.net (paladin.fortunaty.net [217.160.129.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 630A743D45 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:24:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ah@paladin.fortunaty.net) Received: (qmail 31340 invoked by uid 501); 24 Aug 2005 10:13:51 -0000 Date: 24 Aug 2005 10:13:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20050824101351.31339.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> User-Agent: Emai/0.0.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050824094847.31194.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> (Andreas Hauser's message of "24 Aug 2005 09:48:47 -0000") <86mzn78rlj.fsf@xps.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86mzn78rlj.fsf@xps.des.no> From: Andreas Hauser To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= X-License: BSD X-Addicted: yeah Cc: Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:24:30 -0000 des wrote @ Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:40 +0200: > Andreas Hauser writes: > > See here e.g., it works with D-SUB but not DVI > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3654 > > It also works with the nvidia driver, unfortunatly there is none for > > freebsd/amd64. > > There is no reference to physical dimensions or resolution in the bug > report you quote. It just shows that DDC is not perfect, the panel is 20,4" 1600x1200 in reality. The monitor reports 160 MHz while the VESA Mode needs 162. Why it does not take my Modeline override or why it works with the nvidia i don't know, and offtopic. > > If you know of a fanless dual DVI graphics adapter that does 1600x1200 for > > under 100 Euro, i would gladly buy it. Currently it's a Siemens-Fujitsu OEM > > only nvidia 5200, dual DVI, fanless for 42 Euro, which at least would work > > if there was a freebsd/amd64 driver from nvidia (though i'd prefer X nv). > > Matrox Millenium G550 I have one, those only do 1280x1024 via DVI. Andy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 12:26:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4863416A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:26:20 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72DA43D46 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:26:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OCQ2LX002312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id j7OCPlgt033950; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:25:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <17164.26443.329814.519313@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:25:47 -0400 (EDT) To: des@des.no (=?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?=) In-Reply-To: <86mzn78rlj.fsf@xps.des.no> References: <20050824092349.30999.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <86vf1v8t3l.fsf@xps.des.no> <20050824094847.31194.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <86mzn78rlj.fsf@xps.des.no> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Cc: Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , Andreas Hauser , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:26:20 -0000 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > Andreas Hauser writes: > > See here e.g., it works with D-SUB but not DVI > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D3654 > > It also works with the nvidia driver, unfortunatly there is none f= or > > freebsd/amd64. >=20 > There is no reference to physical dimensions or resolution in the bu= g > report you quote. >=20 > > If you know of a fanless dual DVI graphics adapter that does 1600x= 1200 for > > under 100 Euro, i would gladly buy it. Currently it's a Siemens-Fu= jitsu OEM > > only nvidia 5200, dual DVI, fanless for 42 Euro, which at least wo= uld work > > if there was a freebsd/amd64 driver from nvidia (though i'd prefer= X nv). >=20 > Matrox Millenium G550 >From mga(4x): Support for the second head on G400 cards requires a binary-only "mga_hal" module that is availabl= e from Matrox , and may be on the CD supplied w= ith the card. That module also provides various other enhancements, and= may be necessary to use the DVI (digital) output on the G550 (an= d other cards). Last I checked, that mga_hal module is x86 only, and I know it is requred to use DVI on a G450. Drew From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Aug 24 12:36:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7F016A41F for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:36:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96EAC43D48 for ; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:36:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gallatin@cs.duke.edu) Received: from grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (grasshopper.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.30]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j7OCZprM003908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by grasshopper.cs.duke.edu (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id j7OCZgxD033961; Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:35:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gallatin) From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17164.27038.223428.880042@grasshopper.cs.duke.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:35:42 -0400 (EDT) To: Andreas Hauser In-Reply-To: <20050824101351.31339.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> References: <20050824094847.31194.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> <86mzn78rlj.fsf@xps.des.no> <20050824101351.31339.qmail@paladin.fortunaty.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Cc: Stijn Hoop , Andrew Gallatin , "Devon H.O'Dell" , Stefan Ehmann , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, =?iso-8859-1?q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Eric Anderson Subject: Re: fontsize and dpi X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:36:03 -0000 Andreas Hauser writes: > des wrote @ Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:08:40 +0200: > > Andreas Hauser writes: > > > See here e.g., it works with D-SUB but not DVI > > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3654 > > > It also works with the nvidia driver, unfortunatly there is none for > > > freebsd/amd64. > > > > There is no reference to physical dimensions or resolution in the bug > > report you quote. > > It just shows that DDC is not perfect, the panel is 20,4" 1600x1200 in reality. > The monitor reports 160 MHz while the VESA Mode needs 162. Why it does not take > my Modeline override or why it works with the nvidia i don't know, and offtopic. > The nv driver is a lot less forgiving than the nvidia driver. I had a 5200 in my desktop for a while, and nv refused to run at 1600x1200 on my Dell 2001FP which reports a 162MHz clock. The radeon driver also just works, and doesn't care. This monitor has its own quirk, where it reports its size incorrectly (off by 4mm or so) which causes X to calculate a non-square dpi (98x99 or something). This is easily fixed by forcing the display size.. Drew