From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 12 11:02:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBDD16A41F for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:02:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB76543D5C for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:02:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j8CB2CDR025580 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:02:12 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Received: (from peter@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.13.3/8.13.1/Submit) id j8CB2Btw025574 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:02:11 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:02:11 GMT Message-Id: <200509121102.j8CB2Btw025574@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: peter set sender to owner-bugmaster@freebsd.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to you X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:02:14 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Submitted Tracker Resp. Description ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o [2000/01/04] misc/15876 small PicoBSD message of the day problems o [2001/06/18] misc/28255 small picobsd documentation still references ol o [2002/09/13] kern/42728 small many problems in src/usr.sbin/ppp/* afte o [2003/05/14] misc/52255 small picobsd build script fails under FreeBSD o [2003/05/14] misc/52256 small picobsd build script does not read in use 5 problems total. From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 13 21:10:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633E016A41F for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:10:45 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C940243D46 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:10:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from [10.0.5.52] ([69.156.84.58]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050913211043.ZQKH21026.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@[10.0.5.52]>; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:10:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20050908165951.GE31354@odin.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <6BF1ACC6-661D-450A-A38A-112207D2D0AE@gestosoft.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sandro Noel Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:10:42 -0400 To: gnn@neville-neil.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tree essentials UNDERSTANDING the system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:10:45 -0000 Correction . 3 of us, i didn't mean to forget about Brooks Sandro Noel snoel@gestosoft.com From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 13 21:15:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB1016A42A for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:15:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D2543D48 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:15:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from [10.0.5.52] ([69.156.84.58]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050913211509.ILKN26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@[10.0.5.52]>; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:15:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20050908165951.GE31354@odin.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7CA0DCC7-542A-4A9C-9C3B-F50903E282C4@gestosoft.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sandro Noel Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:15:08 -0400 To: gnn@neville-neil.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tree essentials UNDERSTANDING the system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:15:11 -0000 the second tool is PTXDist it's quite nice, and it works 80% of the time On Sep 08, 2005, at 10:11 PM, gnn@neville-neil.com wrote: > At Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:00:45 -0400, > Sandro Noel wrote: > >> I've just had a look at it quickly, and i was going to propose >> building a database to organize the information but this seems >> right. >> > > It's not original to me, I have seen whole RTOSs shipped with the > kernel APIs and docs in the code and then extracted by a similar > method. > > >> I was thinking of - let me know if you share this vue - organizing >> the base system into features, something like >> > > Yes, that's correct approach. > > BTW You should use global and cscope to look around the kernel for the > module declarations to get an idea of the system startup order. This > is what I did to write the chapter on system startup in the latest > "Design and Implementation" book. > > To find those tools just start at www.codespelunking.org > > Using the parts of the tools that allow you to "find all functions > calling X" look for: > > SYSINIT > > which will get you lines like this: > > SYSINIT(domain_ ## name, SI_SUB_PROTO_DOMAIN, SI_ORDER_SECOND, > net_add_domain, & name ## domain) > > This lets you know what is being started, the protocol domains, where > it should go (SECOND), how it is started (net_add_domain()) etc. > > Until you understand the startup sequence you have very little chance > of understanding the dependencies in the system. It is not perfect > but it is a good overall start, at least in my opinion. > > We ought to generate a map somehow... Hmmm. Have to think about > that. > > >> now, i guess this brings a question, is it possible to devide the >> system into smaller blocks like that, while still keeping it >> functional. as an example. is it possible to boot the system to a >> shell without any user files on the system. or any groups for that >> matter. >> > > It is hard but not impossible. It requires something most of us hate, > work ;-) Of course work is easier when shared. > > Later, > George > > > > Sandro Noel snoel@gestosoft.com From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 13 21:24:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C98016A41F for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:24:30 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from tomts38-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts38-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.95]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B61943D45 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:24:29 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from [10.0.5.52] ([69.156.84.58]) by tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050913210921.COGX1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@[10.0.5.52]>; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:09:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20050908165951.GE31354@odin.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <41EC4892-A45A-4C77-A870-6E814863B2C5@gestosoft.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sandro Noel Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:09:20 -0400 To: gnn@neville-neil.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tree essentials UNDERSTANDING the system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:24:30 -0000 On Sep 08, 2005, at 10:11 PM, gnn@neville-neil.com wrote: > > It's not original to me, I have seen whole RTOSs shipped with the > kernel APIs and docs in the code and then extracted by a similar > method. > i like that, approach, i was thinking that once this maping of the system into "features" it should be possible to have some kind of system builder. i picked around the net for such tool, and there happens to to exist 2 somewhat worthy applications in the "linux" world, the infamous ALFS, that i never got to work past some point of compilation. and there is another one named something in that area would be great, and features could be added to the build scripts.. and ports could be included as features .. and so on ... i'm getting way ahead here . but wouldn't it be good for BSD to have such tool ? > We ought to generate a map somehow... Hmmm. Have to think about > that. > yes . that is what i was thinking about too , maybe some king of XML, inspired by the theory behind the ports system i'm wondering if UML models would somehow apply here, it could generate the XML. i'm just throwing ideas. > It is hard but not impossible. It requires something most of us hate, > work ;-) Of course work is easier when shared. > well that makes 2 of us. let's get organized. Sandro Noel From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 15 06:09:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B3916A420 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:09:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE98F43D49 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:09:56 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from gnn@neville-neil.com) Received: from minion.local.neville-neil.com (proxy8.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.13]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/y.out) with ESMTP id j8F69GD0032625; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:08:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: gnn@neville-neil.com To: Sandro Noel In-Reply-To: <41EC4892-A45A-4C77-A870-6E814863B2C5@gestosoft.com> References: <20050908165951.GE31354@odin.ac.hmc.edu> <41EC4892-A45A-4C77-A870-6E814863B2C5@gestosoft.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.12.2 (99 Luftballons) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/21.3.50 (powerpc-apple-darwin8.1.0) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tree essentials UNDERSTANDING the system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 06:09:57 -0000 At Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:09:20 -0400, Sandro Noel wrote: > > It's not original to me, I have seen whole RTOSs shipped with the > > kernel APIs and docs in the code and then extracted by a similar > > method. > > > i like that, approach, i was thinking that once this maping of the > system into "features" it should be possible to have some kind of > system builder. > That is the usual approach but again, not easy. You need to track modules and versions so that you can know if things will fit together at the end. I would hold this part to the very end, after the architecture of the modules is well understood. > i picked around the net for such tool, and there happens to to exist > 2 somewhat worthy applications in the "linux" world, the infamous > ALFS, that i never got to work past some point of compilation. and > there is another one named I missed a word here, what's the second one? > something in that area would be great, and features could be added > to the build scripts.. and ports could be included as features .. > and so on ... i'm getting way ahead here . but wouldn't it be good > for BSD to have such tool ? Good, but let's keep that for later. The approaches taken in nano and pico bsd of using the build system itself are a good start. > > We ought to generate a map somehow... Hmmm. Have to think about > > that. > > yes . that is what i was thinking about too , maybe some king of > XML, inspired by the theory behind the ports system i'm wondering if > UML models would somehow apply here, it could generate the XML. i'm > just throwing ideas. > Doxygen can help us here, but it will take a bit of horsepower for the whole kernel. Take a look at the doxygen docs and you'll see that it will generate this. We just have to be careful not to do it from root and then to annotate the code to fix errors in the automatic generation phase. > well that makes 2 of us. let's get organized. So, that's fine. I think the documentation/cutting up step has to come first, which is often frustrating to people who like to mostly code, but I just don't see a way around making the map. How much time do you think you have to put into this? Later, George From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 15 12:49:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB94216A41F for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:49:35 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (mail.networksolutionsemail.com [205.178.146.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FD7343D45 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:49:34 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: (qmail 26227 invoked by uid 78); 15 Sep 2005 12:49:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail13) (205.178.146.50) by mail.networksolutionsemail.com with SMTP; 15 Sep 2005 12:49:34 -0000 Received: from 204.101.154.2 (unverified [204.101.154.2]) by webmail13 (VisualOffice 4.01) with WEBMAIL id 13746; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:49:34 +0000 From: "Sandro Noel." To: gnn@neville-neil.com, "Sandro Noel" Importance: Normal Sensitivity: Normal Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mintersoft VisualOffice, Build 4.01.1003 X-Originating-IP: [204.101.154.2] Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:49:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--=_vm_0011_W8756211063_13746_1126788574" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tree essentials UNDERSTANDING the system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:49:35 -0000 ----=_vm_0011_W8756211063_13746_1126788574 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >That is the usual approach but again, not easy. You need to track >modules and versions so that you can know if things will fit together >at the end. I would hold this part to the very end, after the >architecture of the modules is well understood. >Good, but let's keep that for later. The approaches taken in nano and >pico bsd of using the build system itself are a good start. Yes that is the idee, from source, just like the port tree. >Doxygen can help us here, but it will take a bit of horsepower for the >whole kernel. Take a look at the doxygen docs and you'll see that it >will generate this. We just have to be careful not to do it from root >and then to annotate the code to fix errors in the automatic >generation phase. i'm looking into it... but i must admit it's a mistery to me right now. >So, that's fine. I think the documentation/cutting up step has to >come first, which is often frustrating to people who like to mostly >code, but I just don't see a way around making the map. I dont have a problem with that, I just need a good starting point. and something to look for. >How much time do you think you have to put into this? A couple of hours a day, mostly after 7:00pm EST You seem to have more knowlage than I do here, would you like to take lead in this project? Something i want to calrify, it is not just about the kernel and it's drivers"modules" tought it is the starting point of the system, i also want to map the system features like networking ppp, bluetooth, mostly everything that ships with the system sources that is not already into a port tree or a package. ----=_vm_0011_W8756211063_13746_1126788574-- From owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 15 23:27:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1EB16A42C for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:27:12 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F347A43D46 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:27:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from snoel@gestosoft.com) Received: from [10.0.5.53] ([69.156.84.58]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with ESMTP id <20050915232710.CNZD26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@[10.0.5.53]>; Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:27:10 -0400 In-Reply-To: References: <20050908165951.GE31354@odin.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sandro Noel Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:27:09 -0400 To: gnn@neville-neil.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tree essentials UNDERSTANDING the system X-BeenThere: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:27:12 -0000 George. Ok i've been looking at the kernel files. for a way to map the kernel globals / options / devices / hints for all the ARCH's including dependencies on other options same for devices and their dependencies, and hints. for instance rl, re, depend on miibus and miibus depends on pci. some devices have hints attached to them, (easy to find because or the names) then after that is mapped i was planing on checking the modules for dependencies to these options/devices and map them in the same manner. for instance if you want to have a sound blaster live sound device you need the emu10k module, and that module needs the sound option to be in the kernel config file. i think.... dependencies would have to be mapped by hand. in a file or database that we can update The goal is to produce a configuration file for config to process. and probably a loader.conf file now what i want to know from you is, am i about to do this for nothing because there is already something out there doing the same thing? or some trick i am not aware about that already does most of the work. If not, what would be the best practice to store this information to ease up editing, updating and use, according to your experience. Sandro.