From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 23 04:53:03 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93A716A40F; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 04:53:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from luv.int-rz.hamburg.de (frontend-1.hamburg.de [212.1.41.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6330943D45; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 04:53:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from [85.176.131.178] (helo=[192.168.1.100]) by luv.int-rz.hamburg.de (envelope-from ) with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Gbrnx-0007kj-GX; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:52:53 +0200 Message-ID: <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:52:38 +0200 From: Peer Schaefer User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20060922) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Deb Goodkin References: <453347E8.2020008@hamburg.de> <20061017185934.GA97353@submonkey.net> <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:41:39 +0000 Cc: board@freebsdfoundation.org, Ceri Davies , deb@freebsdfoundation.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 04:53:04 -0000 OK, here is the revised material. Indeed, it was pain, and I wished somebody told me earlier. But, as Peter Jackson once said, "pain is temporary, BSD is forever" (or did he say "film is forever"? -- I can't remember... Must go to bed now...). Anyway, here are the links: Full scale artwork (300dpi) = 19.5 (png) and 12.8MB (jpeg): http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_300dpi-png.tar.bz2 http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_300dpi-jpeg.tar.bz2 Smaller thumbnals for previews (75dpi) = 3.7MB: http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_75dpi-png.tar.bz2 Even smaller thumbnails (30dpi) = 1MB: http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_30dpi-png.tar.bz2 PDF versions for easy printout = 13.2MB: http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_pdf.tar.bz2 The "sourcecode" for the graphics = 20MB: http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_source.tar.bz2 Peer > The Foundation can provide a document to Peer to sign over copyright > ownership to the Foundation. I have some input on the design regarding > proper attribution of trademarks. > > 1. Please add a TM next to the logo. It should be on the upper right, > below the ear. When the logo is right next to the mark FreeBSD, like > on the project's website, then the registered symbol covers both > marks. But, in this design, the logo is separated and reduced in size. > So, you can either move the mark FreeBSD closer to the logo, or just > add the TM next to the logo. > > 2. In the description on the back of the DVD case and CD sleeve, only > use the "r in circle" for the first use of the FreeBSD mark. You can > probably do the same with Unix. It will look cleaner. So, on the back > you will use the registered symbol twice for the FreeBSD mark. The > first one is the mark next to the logo. The second one is the first > word in the description. > > 3. Where you have the attribution on the bottom of cover and sleeve, > please include: > "FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation" > and > "The FreeBSD Logo is a trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation" > > 4. Add a TM next to Power to Serve. > > I believe that is all. I know this is probably a pain to make the > changes. But, it is important that the project sets a good example on > how to use the trademarks that represent the FreeBSD products and > services. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Sincerely, > > Deb Goodkin > The FreeBSD Foundation > > > > Ceri Davies wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 10:50:48AM +0200, Peer Schaefer wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have designed some CDROM-related artwork for FreeBSD >>> (CDROM-labels, sleeves and DVD-cases). The first drafts were posted >>> to the FreeBSD-advocacy-mailing-list on Sept 1st, and since then I >>> have received some kind feedback that lead to some changes (see >>> mailing-list archive). In particular I would like to thank (in >>> totally random order) Matt Olander, Simon Nielsen, Don Witt, Dru >>> Lavigne, Ceri Davies, G?bor K?vesd?n, Remko Lodder, Dag-Erling >>> Sm?rgrav and Eric Anderson for their kind feedback. All design-flaws >>> and errors remain my own. >> >> Peter, thanks again for creating these. >> >>> I would be pleased if these material could be placed at the website >>> (e.g. http://www.freebsd.org/art.html). I would suggest to place a >>> link to the artwork page in the downloads section, so that everyone >>> who downloads an ISO-image can easily obtain the label and sleeve. >>> >>> If you find this artwork useful, I will also create "6.2" versions >>> for the upcoming release. >> >> I want to do this. www@, the question for me is if these should go in >> CVS or be hosted on the FTP servers (and how we arrange that). Perhaps >> the thumbnails should be in the www CVS and the rest of it on the FTP >> servers. >> >>> LEGAL: >>> The logo and the logo-font are by Anton Gural. >>> The colour palette is taken from Anton Gurals design-studies (but >>> slightly modified). >>> The text is taken from the FreeBSD-website. >>> The remaining artwork is by me. I hereby donate my part of the >>> artwork to the FreeBSD project, so you may use and distribute it >>> under any license you may choose, e.g. under the BSD-license (you >>> may even place it in the Public Domain). Unless the FreeBSD project >>> chooses some other license, the FreeBSD license >>> (http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html) applies. It >>> would be nice if you give me some credit, but that's not legaly >>> required. >> >> Deb, could you please look at what we'd need to do to regarding any >> legal jiggerypokery, assuming that's in your remit? >> >> Ceri > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 23 09:44:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C376E16A403; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:44:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1823E43D46; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:44:13 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (dqfmhm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k9N9i77p043212; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:44:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k9N9i3mJ043211; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:44:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:44:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200610230944.k9N9i3mJ043211@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, peer.schaefer@hamburg.de, www@FreeBSD.ORG, board@freebsdfoundation.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org, deb@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-advocacy User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:44:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:46:05 +0000 Cc: Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:44:14 -0000 Deb Goodkin wrote: > [...] > 2. In the description on the back of the DVD case and CD sleeve, only > use the "r in circle" for the first use of the FreeBSD mark. You can > probably do the same with Unix. No, that will be insufficient. It is required to add an attribution, according to The Open Group which is the owner of the UNIX trademark. Note that it has to be spelled "UNIX" (all upper case); any other spellings ("Unix", "unix", "UN*X" etc) are considered an infringment of the trademark, except in private communications. I know a company who once had legal trouble with The Open Group because of incorrect usage of the UNIX trademark on their web pages. So this should be taken serious. The Open Group has a detailed explanation of the usage guidelines for their trademarks (including UNIX) here: http://www.opengroup.org/registration/tmug.pdf There's also a quick and simple overview here: http://www.opengroup.org/trademarks.htm Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. "The last good thing written in C was Franz Schubert's Symphony number 9." -- Erwin Dieterich From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 23 15:00:56 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEEA016A40F; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:00:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from thin.berklix.org (thin.berklix.org [194.246.123.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C6143D73; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:00:47 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A64C8.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.100.200]) (authenticated bits=128) by thin.berklix.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9NF0Vvm013109; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:00:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9NF0Vln016929; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:00:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9NF0VRo029007; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:00:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200610231500.k9NF0VRo029007@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org, deb@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <200610230944.k9N9i3mJ043211@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <200610230944.k9N9i3mJ043211@lurza.secnetix.de> Comments: In-reply-to Oliver Fromme message dated "Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:44:03 +0200." Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:00:31 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:03:21 +0000 Cc: board@freebsdfoundation.org, peer.schaefer@hamburg.de, Oliver Fromme , www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:00:56 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > Deb Goodkin wrote: > > [...] > > 2. In the description on the back of the DVD case and CD sleeve, only > > use the "r in circle" for the first use of the FreeBSD mark. You can > > probably do the same with Unix. > > No, that will be insufficient. It is required to add an > attribution, according to The Open Group which is the owner > of the UNIX trademark. Note that it has to be spelled > "UNIX" (all upper case); any other spellings ("Unix", > "unix", "UN*X" etc) are considered an infringment of the > trademark, except in private communications. > > I know a company who once had legal trouble with The Open > Group because of incorrect usage of the UNIX trademark on > their web pages. So this should be taken serious. > > The Open Group has a detailed explanation of the usage > guidelines for their trademarks (including UNIX) here: > > http://www.opengroup.org/registration/tmug.pdf > > There's also a quick and simple overview here: > > http://www.opengroup.org/trademarks.htm > > Best regards > Oliver To confirm upper case: Bell Systems Technical Journal July-Aug 1978 Vol 57, No 6, Part 2, Page 1899 has it all capitals. All through the book, the .rof macro generating the automatic footer does it as caps. Bell sold Unix through a tedious chain of companies to whoever owns it this week. Whether trademark & the code copyright were always sold in strict tandem I never bothered to track. There were also the leaked Lyons V6 books & things such as the SUID patent that moved asynchronously from Bell straight to public domain. Heaven protect us from `rights' nightmares, especially software patents nightmares of the future ! -- Julian Stacey. BSD Unix C Net Consultancy, Munich/Muenchen http://berklix.com Mail Ascii, not HTML. Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. http://berklix.org/free-software From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 23 15:11:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A067816A4AB; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:11:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deb@freebsd.org) Received: from ns1.scsiguy.com (ns1.scsiguy.com [70.89.174.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6EE43D45; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:11:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from deb@freebsd.org) Received: from [192.168.16.101] (c-71-196-218-12.hsd1.co.comcast.net [71.196.218.12]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.scsiguy.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9NFBc6i085296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:11:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from deb@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <453CDBAD.1050509@freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:11:41 -0600 From: Deb Goodkin User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Oliver Fromme References: <200610230944.k9N9i3mJ043211@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200610230944.k9N9i3mJ043211@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:03:35 +0000 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, deb@freebsdfoundation.org, peer.schaefer@hamburg.de, board@freebsdfoundation.org, www@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:11:40 -0000 Dear Oliver, Thank you for setting me straight. It wasn't my place to assume the requirements for proper UNIX attribution. I based my comment on what our lawyer recommended for our trademarks. And, I realize now, this is not standard protocol. When using the FreeBSD mark, as outlined in item 6 of the Trademark Terms and Conditions, the trademark symbol needs to follow all prominent uses of the mark. This is why I stated, the first use of FreeBSD should have the symbol, but the subsequent uses don't need it, per the Foundation's requirements. Thanks again for your help on this issue. Sincerely, Deb Goodkin The FreeBSD Foundation Oliver Fromme wrote: > Deb Goodkin wrote: > > [...] > > 2. In the description on the back of the DVD case and CD sleeve, only > > use the "r in circle" for the first use of the FreeBSD mark. You can > > probably do the same with Unix. > > No, that will be insufficient. It is required to add an > attribution, according to The Open Group which is the owner > of the UNIX trademark. Note that it has to be spelled > "UNIX" (all upper case); any other spellings ("Unix", > "unix", "UN*X" etc) are considered an infringment of the > trademark, except in private communications. > > I know a company who once had legal trouble with The Open > Group because of incorrect usage of the UNIX trademark on > their web pages. So this should be taken serious. > > The Open Group has a detailed explanation of the usage > guidelines for their trademarks (including UNIX) here: > > http://www.opengroup.org/registration/tmug.pdf > > There's also a quick and simple overview here: > > http://www.opengroup.org/trademarks.htm > > Best regards > Oliver > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 23 16:41:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB6E16A4C2 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:41:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E3E43DCE for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:40:00 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lmrwvm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k9NGdjth065081; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:39:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id k9NGdiUn065080; Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:39:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:39:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200610231639.k9NGdiUn065080@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jhs@flat.berklix.net In-Reply-To: <200610231500.k9NF0VRo029007@fire.jhs.private> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-advocacy User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:39:50 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jhs@flat.berklix.net List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:41:51 -0000 [Trimmed Cc list.] Julian H. Stacey wrote: > 2, Page 1899 has it all capitals. All through the book, the .rof > macro generating the automatic footer does it as caps. Bell sold > Unix through a tedious chain of companies to whoever owns it this week. Well, the chain isn't that long and tedious, basically AT&T, USL, Novell and The Open Group. And even USL doesn't really count because it was just a "daughter" of AT&T. The Open Group owns the trademark for 13 years now. Saying "whoever owns it this week" isn't really justified, I think. > Whether trademark & the code copyright were always sold in strict > tandem I never bothered to track. They were separated by Novell in 1993. They transferred the trademark to The Open Group which is in charge of the Single UNIX Specification (SUS), which is now a part of "POSIX" (or vice versa, I always confuse it, but who cares). Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way. We're sysadmins. To us, data is a protocol-overhead. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Oct 24 01:19:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974D816A412 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:19:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from thin.berklix.org (thin.berklix.org [194.246.123.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80C943D49 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:19:51 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A5DDD.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.93.221]) (authenticated bits=128) by thin.berklix.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k9O1JnPC014687 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:19:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (fire.jhs.private [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9O1Jj2i018694 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:19:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@flat.berklix.net) Received: from fire.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.jhs.private (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k9O1Jk0R035428 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:19:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200610240119.k9O1Jk0R035428@fire.jhs.private> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <200610231639.k9NGdiUn065080@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <200610231639.k9NGdiUn065080@lurza.secnetix.de> Comments: In-reply-to Oliver Fromme message dated "Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:39:44 +0200." Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 03:19:46 +0200 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:19:59 -0000 Oliver Fromme wrote: > [Trimmed Cc list.] > > Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > 2, Page 1899 has it all capitals. All through the book, the .rof > > macro generating the automatic footer does it as caps. Bell sold > > Unix through a tedious chain of companies to whoever owns it this week. > > Well, the chain isn't that long and tedious, basically AT&T, > USL, Novell and The Open Group. And even USL doesn't really > count because it was just a "daughter" of AT&T. The Open > Group owns the trademark for 13 years now. Saying "whoever > owns it this week" isn't really justified, I think. Just a jaundiced view, was more to be read between the lines, eg: "Who owns Unix?" issues have been around for decades: 1980 +-2 Unix wasn't just a license, but a trade secret, Lyons V6 books got recalled & passed. Universities were allowed sources, polytechnics not. After Bell & USL there was Unix Europe etc in Putney, London that sold Unix licenses in the early 80s. SCO involvements arose. Unix & BSD trademarks, The non disclosed BSD settlements, early patents issues eg SUID & compress. If BSD grows to interest marketers like Linux has, some predators will migrate from Microsoft & Linux to BSD. Some [big] users will likely get opportunistically sued, There are always enough exploitative people in business to assure that, ( & before anyone thinks "Can't be sued, if done nothing wrong", Not so, One need do nothing wrong & still be sued, eg: - To chance lots of dodgy claims (Per USA judge criticising SCO). - To waste time & disrupt a competitor's key personnel. - To impose expenses that may not be recovered before insolvency. With USA government & European Patent Office in an arms race for future software patent trade wars, programmers may need lots of patent lawyers, considering src/ & ports/ & cdrom/dvd & ftp sitess, Future software patent claims may well outweigh trademark compliance admin costs. -- Julian Stacey. BSD Unix C Net Consultancy, Munich/Muenchen http://berklix.com Mail Ascii, not HTML. Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. http://berklix.org/free-software From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 00:15:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6A216A40F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:15:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdsucks@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc2-s20.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s20.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1615443D53 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:15:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsdsucks@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.233.97]) by bay0-omc2-s20.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:15:43 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:15:42 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 67.160.125.150 by by21fd.bay21.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:15:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.160.125.150] X-Originating-Email: [freebsdsucks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: freebsdsucks@hotmail.com From: "FreeBSD Sucks" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:15:39 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 00:15:42.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[DFC6B360:01C6F893] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:14:12 +0000 Subject: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:15:43 -0000 I have been a strong FreeBSD supporter for some time. Unfortunetly FreeBSD has turned into one of the shitiest unix variants out there today. I had a server that would not run FreeBSD properly forcing me to use Windows or Linux. After having to deal with what I used to consider sub-par operating systems I bought a new workstation so that I could once again run FreeBSD as my workstation. But much to my suprise FreeBSD crashes on install because of various usb / sata / etc issues. Of course Windows and Linux install and run fine. What are you people doing to this operating system? I mean you cant even run on a fuqn Dell? Seriously, Linux used to suck and now they are kicking your ass. Step it up! This is a very sad day for me, I will no longer run freebsd .. as a workstation, server, paper weight. Not by choice either, but because the OS cant handle complicated and cutting edge technology like USB .. ohhhh .. or hard drives .oohhhhh I have defended this operating system long enough. I'm over it, I'm tired of hacking other peoples code just to get shit to compile, let alone actually run. Windows: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? FreeBSD: Dee Da Dee! (seg fault) _________________________________________________________________ Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 02:04:06 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2B416A403 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:04:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com) Received: from smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com (smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.198.206]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 60B8E43D45 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:04:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from cmc3list-bsd@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 90960 invoked from network); 26 Oct 2006 02:04:05 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WQnh2H9AnYq6G4q6EyvHZClEGWhpB4HB9pwdF4e464i/rrEgGAeUl5QsXHf7TlQueDnncMDbCRTFU67GtMu7BTlQiVczIfZxkMbYN/3kmJAUs/60RgeIhb8vxSKDqLe5GBEk2JbSccNr/dw4xwu8MEfx0w1I3UfUIU5pEZMR4Ko= ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.102?) (cmc3goat@swbell.net@71.145.183.77 with plain) by smtp107.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Oct 2006 02:04:04 -0000 Message-ID: <45401A43.4070100@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:15:31 -0500 From: Chris Conn User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (X11/20061022) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:04:06 -0000 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll Chris in Austin, who loves FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 03:01:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF41C16A407 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:01:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc2-s10.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc2-s10.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D34843D55 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:01:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.130.90]) by bay0-omc2-s10.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:01:17 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:01:17 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.55.130.123 by by125fd.bay125.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:01:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.113.247.193] X-Originating-Email: [kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com] X-Sender: kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <45401A43.4070100@yahoo.com> From: "kevlar Hodge-Podge" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:01:15 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 03:01:17.0068 (UTC) FILETIME=[013F9CC0:01C6F8AB] Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:01:18 -0000 ha! my responce was actually going to be "don't feed the troll." +1 to you Chris Conn, excellent link. >From: Chris Conn >To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD sucks >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:15:31 -0500 > >See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll > >Chris in Austin, who loves FreeBSD >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _________________________________________________________________ Use your PC to make calls at very low rates https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 04:23:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5F016A415 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dthomas53@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.184]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4509143D46 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dthomas53@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id p77so837720nfc for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:23:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hNlw4Yl7iaWX2gLI0MR+e11i1nblc+8kqlk8xTJqIjTX+zjEH/pc7UyQ0xiZdftDePEjKIKF7sDBJxSKtr4EJlIIcDOvKNPOGToHx0cm4V6BYIb5jQjGYfpk3sU71RRoPO48edn/vKnieY/jNJB61gy1XHkrul1RiRawqR1V7fE= Received: by 10.78.185.16 with SMTP id i16mr2155739huf; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.138.14 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:23:44 -0400 From: "David Stanford" To: "Chris Conn" In-Reply-To: <45401A43.4070100@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <45401A43.4070100@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:23:46 -0000 On 10/25/06, Chris Conn wrote: > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll > > Chris in Austin, who loves FreeBSD > _______________________________________________ > > David in NJ. -David -- [root@fbsd ~]# fortune Happiness is just an illusion, filled with sadness and confusion. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 04:53:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8366116A407 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:53:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from m21.unixathome.org (m21.unixathome.org [205.150.199.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3494543D8F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:53:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [205.150.199.217]) by m21.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C345BBF65; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m21.unixathome.org ([205.150.199.217]) by localhost (m21.unixathome.org [205.150.199.217]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01504-03; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [70.26.229.230]) by m21.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403C8BEDE; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.55.0.99] (wocker.unixathome.org [10.55.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CEC9B854; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:53:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Peer Schaefer Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:53:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4540070C.12304.4196BAB2@dan.langille.org> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> References: <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.31) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at unixathome.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:53:50 -0000 On 23 Oct 2006 at 6:52, Peer Schaefer wrote: > OK, here is the revised material. Indeed, it was pain, and I wished > somebody told me earlier. But, as Peter Jackson once said, "pain is > temporary, BSD is forever" (or did he say "film is forever"? -- I can't > remember... Must go to bed now...). I just printed off twenty CD for distribution at this tutorial on Thursday night: http://oclug.on.ca/archives/oclug-announce/2006-October/000187.html My ink jet printer does not do your artwork justice, but it much more appropriate than my handwritten labels. :)-- Dan Langille : Software Developer looking for work my resume: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 05:54:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1A616A40F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:54:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from smtp.cyberlifelabs.com (197-39.84.64.master-link.com [64.84.39.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C49D43D4C for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:54:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([71.146.5.255]) (AUTH: LOGIN milo@cyberlifelabs.com) by mail.geo.cyberlifelabs.com with esmtp; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:54:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Milo Hyson Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:54:50 -0700 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 05:54:59 -0000 Not to be feeding the troll, but being a scientist, I must wonder about the approach used by the poster to arrive at the conclusion that "FreeBSD sucks." In order for that conclusion to be valid, they must first have disproved all other possible explanations. For instance, might it be that it is in fact Dell that sucks? What data was used to refute that notion? The poster did not provide any such data, therefore one must leave open the possibility that they never questioned Dell's quality. That would make their conclusion invalid or at the very least premature. I apologize for allocating so much brain-power to this, but I haven't had much caffeine yet today and thought it would be fun to inject a bit of humor. Please don't take any of this seriously. :) -- Milo Hyson CyberLife Labs On Oct 25, 2006, at 17:15, FreeBSD Sucks wrote: > I have been a strong FreeBSD supporter for some time. Unfortunetly > FreeBSD has turned into one of the shitiest unix variants out there > today. I had a server that would not run FreeBSD properly forcing > me to use Windows or Linux. After having to deal with what I used > to consider sub-par operating systems I bought a new workstation so > that I could once again run FreeBSD as my workstation. But much to > my suprise FreeBSD crashes on install because of various usb / > sata / etc issues. Of course Windows and Linux install and run fine. > > What are you people doing to this operating system? I mean you > cant even run on a fuqn Dell? Seriously, Linux used to suck and > now they are kicking your ass. Step it up! This is a very sad day > for me, I will no longer run freebsd .. as a workstation, server, > paper weight. Not by choice either, but because the OS cant handle > complicated and cutting edge technology like USB .. ohhhh .. or > hard drives .oohhhhh > > I have defended this operating system long enough. I'm over it, I'm > tired of hacking other peoples code just to get shit to compile, > let alone actually run. > > Windows: Where do you want to go today? > Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > FreeBSD: Dee Da Dee! (seg fault) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/ > hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001 > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy- > unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 06:25:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AB016A417 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:25:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc1-s9.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s9.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC8943D55 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:25:46 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.55.130.113]) by bay0-omc1-s9.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:25:46 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:25:46 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.55.130.123 by by125fd.bay125.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:25:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.113.247.193] X-Originating-Email: [kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com] X-Sender: kevlar_t_hodgepodge@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: From: "kevlar Hodge-Podge" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:25:44 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2006 06:25:46.0024 (UTC) FILETIME=[921DBA80:01C6F8C7] Subject: RE: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:25:47 -0000 Sorry to reply twice, not sure if that’s really annoying to people or if I’m just being paranoid. This post actually did get me thinking about a longtime frustration with one aspect of the whole Linux vs. UNIX thing. First let me say that I’m a real novice user so I hope this isn't something that has been talked to death and resolved. One problem when comparing FreeBSD to most of the Linux distributions is that they are in fact, distributions of an operating system and FreeBSD is an operating system. So when you look at fedora for example the fedora team can choose to use GNOME over other desktop environments, and bundle commonly used software like firefox and openoffice. When fedora does this it is a very reasonable and responsible thing for them to do, as they are marketing themselves toward the desktop world. On the other hand FreeBSD can not make those same decisions, and if they did it would be counter productive to all their users, even those currently using GNOME, firefox and openoffice. Until very recently the comparison (from a PC end user’s point of view) of FreeBSD vs. any Linux was apples and oranges. Now we have pcbsd, desktopbsd and a few others that are really ‘distributions’ in the same fashion as fedora is. Does anyone have suggestions for how a non-technical user of FreeBSD can help contribute to the community with a focus on the “distributions”? Is there anyone doing side by side comparisons of these packaged solutions that use FreeBSD? Thanks, Kevin (kevlar) >From: "FreeBSD Sucks" >To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >Subject: Why FreeBSD sucks Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:15:39 -0600 > >I have been a strong FreeBSD supporter for some time. Unfortunetly FreeBSD >has turned into one of the shitiest unix variants out there today. I had a >server that would not run FreeBSD properly forcing me to use Windows or >Linux. After having to deal with what I used to consider sub-par operating >systems I bought a new workstation so that I could once again run FreeBSD >as my workstation. But much to my suprise FreeBSD crashes on install >because of various usb / sata / etc issues. Of course Windows and Linux >install and run fine. > >What are you people doing to this operating system? I mean you cant even >run on a fuqn Dell? Seriously, Linux used to suck and now they are kicking >your ass. Step it up! This is a very sad day for me, I will no longer run >freebsd .. as a workstation, server, paper weight. Not by choice either, >but because the OS cant handle complicated and cutting edge technology like >USB .. ohhhh .. or hard drives .oohhhhh > >I have defended this operating system long enough. I'm over it, I'm tired >of hacking other peoples code just to get shit to compile, let alone >actually run. > >Windows: Where do you want to go today? >Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? >FreeBSD: Dee Da Dee! (seg fault) > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get today's hot entertainment gossip >http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001 > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 08:00:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BFDA16A4AB for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:00:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from luv.int-rz.hamburg.de (frontend-1.hamburg.de [212.1.41.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C598443D45 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:00:53 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from [212.1.41.126] (helo=hagel) by luv.int-rz.hamburg.de (envelope-from ) with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Gd0AV-00003Q-H8; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:00:51 +0200 Message-ID: <14094698.1161849651315.JavaMail.meinbereich@hagel> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:00:51 +0200 (CEST) From: peer.schaefer@hamburg.de To: dan@langille.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: hhde webmail X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: 141.91.240.141 172.16.2.54 1161849651 fc05db850840cfb2e1ca4fc1beeb8fc8 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:00:54 -0000 Oh, please be careful! This stuff is not approved by the board and not "pub= lished" yet! We are still discussing the drafts. My postings are still "for= review" only. At the moment the foundation is working out some legal issue= s regarding the used trademarks ("Athlon", "PowerPC", and such). Yes, the material is not "ink-friendly". It is a dark and colorful design w= hich is a little bit heavy to printout. If this material is finally approve= d by the foundation, I will probably publish a more "ink-friendly" version = that is brighter. Best regards, Peer -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: dan@langille.org Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2006 06:53 An: Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer@hamburg.de> CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Betreff: Re: CDROM-Artwork > On 23 Oct 2006 at 6:52, Peer Schaefer wrote: >=20 > > OK, here is the revised material. Indeed, it was pain, and I wished=20 > > somebody told me earlier. But, as Peter Jackson once said, "pain is=20 > > temporary, BSD is forever" (or did he say "film is forever"? -- I can't= =20 > > remember... Must go to bed now...). >=20 > I just printed off twenty CD for distribution at this tutorial on=20 > Thursday night: >=20 > http://oclug.on.ca/archives/oclug-announce/2006-October/000187.html >=20 > My ink jet printer does not do your artwork justice, but it much more=20 > appropriate than my handwritten labels. :)--=20 > Dan Langille : Software Developer looking for work > my resume: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.or= g" >=20 > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 14:38:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7834616A40F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:38:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim1timau@yahoo.com) Received: from web50305.mail.yahoo.com (web50305.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0700843D46 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:38:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tim1timau@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 86101 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Oct 2006 14:38:36 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sAk3jQV+oPgKNcRW7pQ6BaP8FbQGagEVTu/kCr6Fmou1mHdaaZ5kPx5kPvvqUcV04yDl0g9j48w8eaDzWN8UDTjZcFOCmEoo2NNPG/tJ5iA3Oq+KiLxHVQkmM5zRphltcMl2KjXCShfMMzBCR4uwY+YoYkY8GSS7XTHvBUxc3f8= ; Message-ID: <20061026143836.86099.qmail@web50305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [210.0.100.149] by web50305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:38:35 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:38:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Clewlow To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Why FreeBSD is good X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:38:37 -0000 Hi, I am a fairly novice user, I have only been using FreeBSD for 2 and a bit years. I currently use it as a firewall/gateway for a lan, on which exist servers and desktop systems - all FreeBSD. It is this wide range of capabilities that make FreeBSD so good, ie it will quite happily be a firewall/gateway, a server, or a desktop. Unfortunately, this wide range of capabilities can also be a bit of a frustration. The reason is that in order for FreeBSD to be so versatile, there must also be a large number of possible config options to allow that versatility, and, in order to use these options the person doing admin has to first learn those options, or at least know they exist. The same can be said for both kernel and userland, ie to use an application, the user is most likely going to have to learn a few options for each program they run. If you are not used to this, ie if you come from an operating system that simply picks the bare minimum set of config options on the users behalf, and then hopes for the best, then you may be frustrated at having to learn a few new things. But after a while, you will learn (hopefully) like me, that the existance of all these config options for everything actually means that you can make your computer do a lot more than just the bare minimum. So, while there will be a bit of new learning for most people coming to FreeBSD, once you have done that learning, you will have an extremely versatile and hence powerful operating system available to you. Lastly, if you ever really do get stuck, you can always ask someone on one of these mailing lists for some help. Regards, Tim. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 22:34:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A28416A40F; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:34:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ceri@submonkey.net) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (cpc2-cdif2-0-0-cust107.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.104.168.108]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B470143D45; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:34:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from ceri@submonkey.net) Received: from ceri by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1GdDnS-000DEM-A3; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:33:58 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:33:58 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: Peer Schaefer Message-ID: <20061026223358.GA1690@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , Peer Schaefer , Deb Goodkin , www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <453347E8.2020008@hamburg.de> <20061017185934.GA97353@submonkey.net> <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> X-PGP: finger ceri@FreeBSD.org User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Sender: Ceri Davies Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org, Deb Goodkin Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:34:04 -0000 --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks very much Peer, and apologies for both the run-around and for consistently spelling your name wrong. Deb, thanks for checking this out. www@, I need a decision on the CVS thing please. Ceri =2E On Mon, Oct 23, 2006 at 06:52:38AM +0200, Peer Schaefer wrote: > OK, here is the revised material. Indeed, it was pain, and I wished=20 > somebody told me earlier. But, as Peter Jackson once said, "pain is=20 > temporary, BSD is forever" (or did he say "film is forever"? -- I can't= =20 > remember... Must go to bed now...). >=20 > Anyway, here are the links: >=20 > Full scale artwork (300dpi) =3D 19.5 (png) and 12.8MB (jpeg): > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_300dpi= -png.tar.bz2 > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_300dpi= -jpeg.tar.bz2 >=20 > Smaller thumbnals for previews (75dpi) =3D 3.7MB: > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_75dpi-= png.tar.bz2 >=20 > Even smaller thumbnails (30dpi) =3D 1MB: > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_30dpi-= png.tar.bz2 >=20 > PDF versions for easy printout =3D 13.2MB: > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_pdf.ta= r.bz2 >=20 > The "sourcecode" for the graphics =3D 20MB: > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_source= =2Etar.bz2 >=20 > Peer >=20 >=20 > >The Foundation can provide a document to Peer to sign over copyright=20 > >ownership to the Foundation. I have some input on the design regarding= =20 > >proper attribution of trademarks. > > > >1. Please add a TM next to the logo. It should be on the upper right,=20 > >below the ear. When the logo is right next to the mark FreeBSD, like=20 > >on the project's website, then the registered symbol covers both=20 > >marks. But, in this design, the logo is separated and reduced in size.= =20 > >So, you can either move the mark FreeBSD closer to the logo, or just=20 > >add the TM next to the logo. > > > >2. In the description on the back of the DVD case and CD sleeve, only=20 > >use the "r in circle" for the first use of the FreeBSD mark. You can=20 > >probably do the same with Unix. It will look cleaner. So, on the back=20 > >you will use the registered symbol twice for the FreeBSD mark. The=20 > >first one is the mark next to the logo. The second one is the first=20 > >word in the description. > > > >3. Where you have the attribution on the bottom of cover and sleeve,=20 > >please include: > >"FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation" > >and > >"The FreeBSD Logo is a trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation" > > > >4. Add a TM next to Power to Serve. > > > >I believe that is all. I know this is probably a pain to make the=20 > >changes. But, it is important that the project sets a good example on=20 > >how to use the trademarks that represent the FreeBSD products and=20 > >services. > > > >Please let me know if you have any questions. > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Deb Goodkin > >The FreeBSD Foundation > > > > > > > >Ceri Davies wrote: > >>On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 10:50:48AM +0200, Peer Schaefer wrote: > >>>Hi, > >>> > >>>I have designed some CDROM-related artwork for FreeBSD=20 > >>>(CDROM-labels, sleeves and DVD-cases). The first drafts were posted=20 > >>>to the FreeBSD-advocacy-mailing-list on Sept 1st, and since then I=20 > >>>have received some kind feedback that lead to some changes (see=20 > >>>mailing-list archive). In particular I would like to thank (in=20 > >>>totally random order) Matt Olander, Simon Nielsen, Don Witt, Dru=20 > >>>Lavigne, Ceri Davies, G?bor K?vesd?n, Remko Lodder, Dag-Erling=20 > >>>Sm?rgrav and Eric Anderson for their kind feedback. All design-flaws= =20 > >>>and errors remain my own. > >> > >>Peter, thanks again for creating these. > >> > >>>I would be pleased if these material could be placed at the website=20 > >>>(e.g. http://www.freebsd.org/art.html). I would suggest to place a=20 > >>>link to the artwork page in the downloads section, so that everyone=20 > >>>who downloads an ISO-image can easily obtain the label and sleeve. > >>> > >>>If you find this artwork useful, I will also create "6.2" versions=20 > >>>for the upcoming release. > >> > >>I want to do this. www@, the question for me is if these should go in > >>CVS or be hosted on the FTP servers (and how we arrange that). Perhaps > >>the thumbnails should be in the www CVS and the rest of it on the FTP > >>servers. > >> > >>>LEGAL: > >>>The logo and the logo-font are by Anton Gural. > >>>The colour palette is taken from Anton Gurals design-studies (but=20 > >>>slightly modified). > >>>The text is taken from the FreeBSD-website. > >>>The remaining artwork is by me. I hereby donate my part of the=20 > >>>artwork to the FreeBSD project, so you may use and distribute it=20 > >>>under any license you may choose, e.g. under the BSD-license (you=20 > >>>may even place it in the Public Domain). Unless the FreeBSD project=20 > >>>chooses some other license, the FreeBSD license=20 > >>>(http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html) applies. It=20 > >>>would be nice if you give me some credit, but that's not legaly=20 > >>>required. > >> > >>Deb, could you please look at what we'd need to do to regarding any > >>legal jiggerypokery, assuming that's in your remit? > >> > >>Ceri > > >=20 --=20 That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFQTfWocfcwTS3JF8RAhQ9AKCAXegobCfKry0Ot7/gd3Jgbe8+gACeMWu7 pb9kWSTpsJ6qNXHuRhBI+vA= =jHQf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SLDf9lqlvOQaIe6s-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 22:45:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D959616A412; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:45:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: from mx.nitro.dk (zarniwoop.nitro.dk [83.92.207.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3CE43D55; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:45:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: from zaphod.nitro.dk (unknown [192.168.3.39]) by mx.nitro.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4D5386C4F; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by zaphod.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id F397311434; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:45:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:45:24 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Ceri Davies , Peer Schaefer , Deb Goodkin , www@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20061026224524.GB1019@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <453347E8.2020008@hamburg.de> <20061017185934.GA97353@submonkey.net> <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> <20061026223358.GA1690@submonkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20061026223358.GA1690@submonkey.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:45:28 -0000 On 2006.10.26 23:33:58 +0100, Ceri Davies wrote: > Thanks very much Peer, and apologies for both the run-around and for > consistently spelling your name wrong. > > Deb, thanks for checking this out. > > www@, I need a decision on the CVS thing please. I think files > 1MB doesn't belong in CVS and should be dumped on the FTP site somewhere. I can help getting them there if needed. I would really like to see more artwork go up, I just don't have the time to do it myself at the moment. > On Mon, Oct 23, 2006 at 06:52:38AM +0200, Peer Schaefer wrote: > > OK, here is the revised material. Indeed, it was pain, and I wished > > somebody told me earlier. But, as Peter Jackson once said, "pain is > > temporary, BSD is forever" (or did he say "film is forever"? -- I can't > > remember... Must go to bed now...). > > > > Anyway, here are the links: > > > > Full scale artwork (300dpi) = 19.5 (png) and 12.8MB (jpeg): > > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_300dpi-png.tar.bz2 > > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_300dpi-jpeg.tar.bz2 > > > > Smaller thumbnals for previews (75dpi) = 3.7MB: > > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_75dpi-png.tar.bz2 > > > > Even smaller thumbnails (30dpi) = 1MB: > > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_30dpi-png.tar.bz2 > > > > PDF versions for easy printout = 13.2MB: > > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_pdf.tar.bz2 > > > > The "sourcecode" for the graphics = 20MB: > > http://www.wolldingwacht.de/foss/freebsd/freebsd-6.1_cdrom-artwork_source.tar.bz2 > > > > Peer > > > > > > >The Foundation can provide a document to Peer to sign over copyright > > >ownership to the Foundation. I have some input on the design regarding > > >proper attribution of trademarks. > > > > > >1. Please add a TM next to the logo. It should be on the upper right, > > >below the ear. When the logo is right next to the mark FreeBSD, like > > >on the project's website, then the registered symbol covers both > > >marks. But, in this design, the logo is separated and reduced in size. > > >So, you can either move the mark FreeBSD closer to the logo, or just > > >add the TM next to the logo. > > > > > >2. In the description on the back of the DVD case and CD sleeve, only > > >use the "r in circle" for the first use of the FreeBSD mark. You can > > >probably do the same with Unix. It will look cleaner. So, on the back > > >you will use the registered symbol twice for the FreeBSD mark. The > > >first one is the mark next to the logo. The second one is the first > > >word in the description. > > > > > >3. Where you have the attribution on the bottom of cover and sleeve, > > >please include: > > >"FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation" > > >and > > >"The FreeBSD Logo is a trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation" > > > > > >4. Add a TM next to Power to Serve. > > > > > >I believe that is all. I know this is probably a pain to make the > > >changes. But, it is important that the project sets a good example on > > >how to use the trademarks that represent the FreeBSD products and > > >services. > > > > > >Please let me know if you have any questions. > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > >Deb Goodkin > > >The FreeBSD Foundation > > > > > > > > > > > >Ceri Davies wrote: > > >>On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 10:50:48AM +0200, Peer Schaefer wrote: > > >>>Hi, > > >>> > > >>>I have designed some CDROM-related artwork for FreeBSD > > >>>(CDROM-labels, sleeves and DVD-cases). The first drafts were posted > > >>>to the FreeBSD-advocacy-mailing-list on Sept 1st, and since then I > > >>>have received some kind feedback that lead to some changes (see > > >>>mailing-list archive). In particular I would like to thank (in > > >>>totally random order) Matt Olander, Simon Nielsen, Don Witt, Dru > > >>>Lavigne, Ceri Davies, G?bor K?vesd?n, Remko Lodder, Dag-Erling > > >>>Sm?rgrav and Eric Anderson for their kind feedback. All design-flaws > > >>>and errors remain my own. > > >> > > >>Peter, thanks again for creating these. > > >> > > >>>I would be pleased if these material could be placed at the website > > >>>(e.g. http://www.freebsd.org/art.html). I would suggest to place a > > >>>link to the artwork page in the downloads section, so that everyone > > >>>who downloads an ISO-image can easily obtain the label and sleeve. > > >>> > > >>>If you find this artwork useful, I will also create "6.2" versions > > >>>for the upcoming release. > > >> > > >>I want to do this. www@, the question for me is if these should go in > > >>CVS or be hosted on the FTP servers (and how we arrange that). Perhaps > > >>the thumbnails should be in the www CVS and the rest of it on the FTP > > >>servers. > > >> > > >>>LEGAL: > > >>>The logo and the logo-font are by Anton Gural. > > >>>The colour palette is taken from Anton Gurals design-studies (but > > >>>slightly modified). > > >>>The text is taken from the FreeBSD-website. > > >>>The remaining artwork is by me. I hereby donate my part of the > > >>>artwork to the FreeBSD project, so you may use and distribute it > > >>>under any license you may choose, e.g. under the BSD-license (you > > >>>may even place it in the Public Domain). Unless the FreeBSD project > > >>>chooses some other license, the FreeBSD license > > >>>(http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html) applies. It > > >>>would be nice if you give me some credit, but that's not legaly > > >>>required. > > >> > > >>Deb, could you please look at what we'd need to do to regarding any > > >>legal jiggerypokery, assuming that's in your remit? > > >> > > >>Ceri > > > > > > > -- > That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. > -- Moliere -- Simon L. Nielsen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Oct 26 23:19:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A3B16A4FD for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:19:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stapleton.41@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B458843D5F for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:18:58 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stapleton.41@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so465832uge for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:18:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=dPfjD7y+ipbMoiL8hQVs6mn1qCgHERW0CTK9d0IFtT5lyhEVGlvZj5JRarVEMmV5F3KSraCzRTVDkpPmCojWCz2On2O24U+aLvmncx/orWcXM97iMDieUck+tsxhFGyW6Kgw5aTwLhidHf0X6bgfvfRVYrzKxt8wxxkamfoPllE= Received: by 10.66.220.17 with SMTP id s17mr3805956ugg; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.86.18 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <80f4f2b20610261618l63660139m38ccb0ec682b947f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:18:57 -0400 From: "Jim Stapleton" To: advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Subject: letter writing for FreeBSD support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:19:23 -0000 Hello, I've been talking with someone else here, and on a few other groups, and I'd like to try a letter writing campaign to Toshiba to try to get them to produce either open source drivers for the quirky parts of their notebooks, or if that is not possible, closed source drivers so that FreeBSD can run on them. I was wondering what the thoughts where here? The individual I've been emailing with (another [various]@freebsd.org poster), and he suggested this: > Do you think it'd be useful to send to advocacy@ for comments? They will > probably know a trick or two or correct things we've missed... then maybe send > openly to questions + mobile + multimedia.... wdyt? My letter template: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear sir/ma'am I have read/heard several reports as to the quality of product and support for Toshiba notebooks. However, I have also read/heard many reports of their lack of driver support with non-Windows operating systems such as Linux and BSD. Unfortunately, I use _______ and would likely have compatibility issues with your product. Nonetheless I feel that your product would be a good option for my future purposes, if this area were fixed. Additionally the better driver support could help increase your market share, and defend the share that you have against other manufacturers who have good first or third party support for these operating systems (such as Dell and Lenovo). I am writing to request that you take one or more of the following actions, so that I myself, and other can find your otherwise excellent notebooks and service a viable option: a. Provide open source drivers for one or more open source operating systems, preferably Linux or BSD b. Provide sufficient documentation of Toshiba hardware so that drivers can be written by the open source community c. If your IP protection requires it, or you license external IP that requires it, create closed source drivers for at least Linux and the various incarnations of BSD. c. If your IP protection requires it, or you license external IP that requires it, create closed source binary blobs with documented OS independent accession methods (such that any x86 operating system could execute the blobs, even if machine level entry is required), and document the method needed to access these entry points. Thank you for your time ___________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Thanks, -Jim Stapleton From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 00:36:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE37A16A412 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:36:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsdsucks@hotmail.com) Received: from bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com (bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.246.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3D443D5E for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:36:28 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from freebsdsucks@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.233.112]) by bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:35:28 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:35:27 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 131.107.0.101 by by21fd.bay21.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:35:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.101] X-Originating-Email: [freebsdsucks@hotmail.com] X-Sender: freebsdsucks@hotmail.com From: "FreeBSD Sucks" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:35:24 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2006 00:35:27.0892 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCBF0D40:01C6F95F] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:18:44 +0000 Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD Trolls Suck X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:36:33 -0000 So I wanted to apologize for sending such an angry email to this list, especially without giving more detail as was mentioned in the Milo Hyson email response. I had spent some time not being able to use FreeBSD as a stable workstation because of hardware compatibility issues on a Gateway machine. During that time I had been forced to run Windows or Linux as my desktop which sucks. I bought a new Dell E521 machine with a pretty vanilla hardware spec, and didn’t before I bought it check to see if FreeBSD would support it. This is my fault, but in my defense at this stage in the game you’d think FreeBSD would support things like USB, SATA drives, CD-ROMS, etc especially when I'm running 5.x and 6.x on my servers at work. When my machine came in I was very excited to start installing FreeBSD so I could once again have a real workstation. I tried installing 6.1 amd64 and it crashed before it even finished loading. It crashed because of USB issues. I unplugged the keyboard and then it hung on the SATA drive. I had problems with amd and non-amd branches ranging from 5.x and 6.x. So I burned a 7.0 install disc and it still crashed if the USB keyboard was plugged in, but at least didn’t hang on the SATA drive. Go to install and the CD-ROM is not recognized (though I’m sitting in sysinstall because I booted from disc). So I ended up FTP’ing 6.2-Beta2 and actually made it through the install. Yay! But now I can’t reboot my machine with the mouse or keyboard plugged into it, I can’t use my cd-rom, the sound doesn’t work and my mouse freezes all the time making this another desktop that I can’t run FreeBSD on. I’m not new to this OS and I have spent more time than I care to recall hacking through these issues, rewriting code and so on. And during the 4.x years and even 5.x I accepted this and moved on. But at this stage in the game I figured that the OS would be at a point where it could handle a vanilla spec’d Dell. I’m willing to blame Gateway, I’m willing to blame Dell, if it weren’t for the fact that I can install several versions of Linux and Windows with no issues. It's hard convincing people to switch from Windows or Linux when you can't even install the OS on a generic PC. I don’t want to run Windows, I don’t want to run Linux, I just wanted a freakin BSD box again. So yeah, I was really pissed and yes I acted like a troll. I apologize for that, but I still stand behind the fact that at this stage in the game, after all these years these types of fundamental issues should not be happening and while it’s lame to flame the mailing list because of my frustration its even more lame I don’t get to run FreeBSD. And what really sucks is finally getting new people to check out this OS I have been pushing only to find they can't use if if they want a keyboard, or a mouse or a cd-rom or a sound card installed. _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 08:17:04 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0B416A403; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:17:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A3D43D4C; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:17:03 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joel@FreeBSD.org) Received: by av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 6F2263AD64; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:16:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.92]) by av9-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050D23ADB2; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:16:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dude.automatvapen.se (81-229-112-193-no21.tbcn.telia.com [81.229.112.193]) by smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DDE37E84; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Joel Dahl To: "Simon L. Nielsen" In-Reply-To: <20061026224524.GB1019@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <453347E8.2020008@hamburg.de> <20061017185934.GA97353@submonkey.net> <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> <20061026223358.GA1690@submonkey.net> <20061026224524.GB1019@zaphod.nitro.dk> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:16:01 +0200 Message-Id: <1161936961.674.10.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:04:31 +0000 Cc: www@freebsd.org, Peer Schaefer , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Deb Goodkin Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:17:04 -0000 On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 00:45 +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > On 2006.10.26 23:33:58 +0100, Ceri Davies wrote: > > Thanks very much Peer, and apologies for both the run-around and for > > consistently spelling your name wrong. > > > > Deb, thanks for checking this out. > > > > www@, I need a decision on the CVS thing please. > > I think files > 1MB doesn't belong in CVS and should be dumped on the > FTP site somewhere. I can help getting them there if needed. > > I would really like to see more artwork go up, I just don't have the > time to do it myself at the moment. How about putting a couple of 75dpi thumbnails on the logo page on the website and the rest on a FTP site? One CDROM-label, CDROM-sleeve and DVD-case showing for example FreeBSD/i386 should be enough. The thumbnails can be links to the FTP site with the rest of the stuff. Something like this perhaps: http://people.freebsd.org/~joel/files/logo1.png http://people.freebsd.org/~joel/files/logo2.png -- Joel From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 08:39:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51EA16A403; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:39:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: from mx.nitro.dk (zarniwoop.nitro.dk [83.92.207.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BE843D49; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:39:38 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from simon@zaphod.nitro.dk) Received: from zaphod.nitro.dk (unknown [192.168.3.39]) by mx.nitro.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F3A386C09; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:39:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by zaphod.nitro.dk (Postfix, from userid 3000) id EF48111434; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:39:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:39:37 +0200 From: "Simon L. Nielsen" To: Joel Dahl Message-ID: <20061027083937.GB1010@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <453347E8.2020008@hamburg.de> <20061017185934.GA97353@submonkey.net> <45392216.9080503@freebsd.org> <453C4A96.10605@hamburg.de> <20061026223358.GA1690@submonkey.net> <20061026224524.GB1019@zaphod.nitro.dk> <1161936961.674.10.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1161936961.674.10.camel@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:04:41 +0000 Cc: www@freebsd.org, Peer Schaefer , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Deb Goodkin Subject: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:39:39 -0000 On 2006.10.27 10:16:01 +0200, Joel Dahl wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 00:45 +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > > On 2006.10.26 23:33:58 +0100, Ceri Davies wrote: > > > Thanks very much Peer, and apologies for both the run-around and for > > > consistently spelling your name wrong. > > > > > > Deb, thanks for checking this out. > > > > > > www@, I need a decision on the CVS thing please. > > > > I think files > 1MB doesn't belong in CVS and should be dumped on the > > FTP site somewhere. I can help getting them there if needed. > > > > I would really like to see more artwork go up, I just don't have the > > time to do it myself at the moment. > > How about putting a couple of 75dpi thumbnails on the logo page on the > website and the rest on a FTP site? One CDROM-label, CDROM-sleeve and > DVD-case showing for example FreeBSD/i386 should be enough. The > thumbnails can be links to the FTP site with the rest of the stuff. > > Something like this perhaps: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~joel/files/logo1.png > http://people.freebsd.org/~joel/files/logo2.png Yes that sounds like a good idea, and that was actually what I meant with the "> 1MB" part, which might not have been that obvious to anyone but me :-). -- Simon L. Nielsen From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 10:51:51 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FFE16A403; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:51:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from flut.int-rz.hamburg.de (frontend-1.hamburg.de [212.1.41.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A49F43D4C; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:51:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from peer.schaefer@hamburg.de) Received: from [212.1.41.126] (helo=regen) by flut.int-rz.hamburg.de (envelope-from ) with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1GdPJL-0003Ou-6x; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:51:39 +0200 Message-ID: <27261694.1161946299158.JavaMail.meinbereich@regen> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:51:39 +0200 (CEST) From: peer.schaefer@hamburg.de To: simon@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: hhde webmail X-Priority: 3 X-Originating-IP: 141.91.240.140 172.16.2.48 1161946299 01cb72b862717d7605fbb3beffd043ca X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:04:48 +0000 Cc: www@freebsd.org, deb@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, joel@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Re: CDROM-Artwork X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:51:51 -0000 Thank you very much for your enthusiasm about the artwork! I am very please= d and happy with that! But please consider that the drafts that I posted here are still "drafts". = Deb is still after some legal issues (trademarks!), and we have to wait sin= ce all these issues are settled. Best regards, Peer -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: simon@FreeBSD.org Gesendet: Freitag, 27. Oktober 2006 10:39 An: Joel Dahl <joel@FreeBSD.org> CC: Ceri Davies <ceri@submonkey.net>, Peer Schaefer <peer.schaefer= @hamburg.de>,=20 =09Deb Goodkin <deb@freebsd.org>, www@freebsd.org,=20 =09freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Betreff: Re: CDROM-Artwork > On 2006.10.27 10:16:01 +0200, Joel Dahl wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 00:45 +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > > > On 2006.10.26 23:33:58 +0100, Ceri Davies wrote: > > > > Thanks very much Peer, and apologies for both the run-around and fo= r > > > > consistently spelling your name wrong. > > > >=20 > > > > Deb, thanks for checking this out. > > > >=20 > > > > www@, I need a decision on the CVS thing please. > > >=20 > > > I think files > 1MB doesn't belong in CVS and should be dumped on the > > > FTP site somewhere. I can help getting them there if needed. > > >=20 > > > I would really like to see more artwork go up, I just don't have the > > > time to do it myself at the moment. > >=20 > > How about putting a couple of 75dpi thumbnails on the logo page on the > > website and the rest on a FTP site? One CDROM-label, CDROM-sleeve and > > DVD-case showing for example FreeBSD/i386 should be enough. The > > thumbnails can be links to the FTP site with the rest of the stuff. > >=20 > > Something like this perhaps: > >=20 > > http://people.freebsd.org/~joel/files/logo1.png > > http://people.freebsd.org/~joel/files/logo2.png >=20 > Yes that sounds like a good idea, and that was actually what I meant > with the "> 1MB" part, which might not have been that obvious to > anyone but me :-). >=20 > --=20 > Simon L. Nielsen > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 16:05:58 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCE816A403 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:05:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.183]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661FA43D64 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:05:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from liamfoy@sepulcrum.org) Received: from [81.168.58.234] (helo=[192.168.0.7]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu5) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML25U-1GdUDR3Qby-00086f; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:05:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6E2439FC-C48F-44BD-AF27-A53931082274@sepulcrum.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Liam J. Foy" Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:05:47 +0100 To: FreeBSD Sucks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:1ca2002b29693e660bea0febad56607a Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD Trolls Suck X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:05:58 -0000 On 27 Oct 2006, at 01:35, FreeBSD Sucks wrote: > > I don=92t want to run Windows, I don=92t want to run Linux, I just =20 > wanted a freakin BSD box again. So yeah, I was really Have you tried NetBSD? Just a thought... --- Liam J. Foy From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 19:28:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FC616A417 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:28:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from igloo.linux.gr (igloo.linux.gr [62.1.205.36]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEBC43D58 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:28:19 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: from gothmog.pc (host5.bedc.ondsl.gr [62.103.39.229]) (authenticated bits=128) by igloo.linux.gr (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-2) with ESMTP id k9RJS9WO023531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:28:14 +0300 Received: from gothmog.pc (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.pc (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id k9RJSjYe087972; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:28:45 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.pc (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id k9RJSiBN087971; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:28:44 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:28:44 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: kevlar Hodge-Podge Message-ID: <20061027192844.GA87916@gothmog.pc> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Hellug-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Hellug-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.641, required 5, AWL -0.24, BAYES_00 -2.60, DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE 0.20, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY 0.00) X-Hellug-MailScanner-From: keramida@freebsd.org X-Spam-Status: No Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD sucks X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:28:28 -0000 On 2006-10-26 06:25, kevlar Hodge-Podge wrote: > This post actually did get me thinking about a longtime frustration > with one aspect of the whole Linux vs. UNIX thing. First let me say > that I'm a real novice user so I hope this isn't something that has > been talked to death and resolved. The following is my own, personal opinion, so please take it all with a grain of salt... Talking, as in `constructive exchange of ideas, opinions and other useful stuff, with the explicit purpose of advancing the current state of the art', will *never* be resolved in the world of an open source system. This is not, of course, a bad thing. It merely means that we are -- or at least we should always be -- open to discussion about ways to improve, and we should actively encourage both this sort of exchange with the user community *and* take action where necessary. > One problem when comparing FreeBSD to most of the Linux distributions > is that they are in fact, distributions of an operating system and > FreeBSD is an operating system. But a different operating system, with a different set of goals. Even Linux distributions have goals which range from extremely non-technical, to deeply involved and complex. > So when you look at fedora for example the fedora team can choose to > use GNOME over other desktop environments, and bundle commonly used > software like firefox and openoffice. When fedora does this it is a > very reasonable and responsible thing for them to do, as they are > marketing themselves toward the desktop world. Right. > On the other hand FreeBSD can not make those same decisions, and if > they did it would be counter productive to all their users, even those > currently using GNOME, firefox and openoffice. Why do you think this is so? We can definitely improve the number of prebuilt packages we release with official ISO images, but this takes both manpower (to oversee the builds) and resources (build machines). We don't have a lot of these right now, so anything we can do to make things like ``a faster, full ports/ build and packaging run'' is going to be extremely good. This is also one of the places where non-technical FreeBSD users can help a lot, even without necessarily submitting source code or port packaging patches. To find more resources for the port-building cluster, even FreeBSD users who are not programming gods or packaging experts can donate to the project hardware to speed things up :) > Until very recently the comparison (from a PC end user?s point of > view) of FreeBSD vs. any Linux was apples and oranges. Now we have > pcbsd, desktopbsd and a few others that are really ?distributions? in > the same fashion as fedora is. More or less :) > Does anyone have suggestions for how a non-technical user of FreeBSD > can help contribute to the community with a focus on the > `distributions'? Is there anyone doing side by side comparisons of > these packaged solutions that use FreeBSD? There are _MANY_ ways in which a FreeBSD user can help the project. * I've already mentioned donations in hardware. A full list of stuff that FreeBSD developers would find useful can be found online at . If there is something in that list which you can send to a FreeBSD developer, like unsupported hardware that you would like to see a driver developer for, please consider contacting the respective developer or the Donations Liaison team. * Periodically check the ``Contributing to FreeBSD'' article and see if you can help with anything listed there. Among the most prominent tasks listed there, which do not really require programming godship or many other elite skills, is our documentation. The FreeBSD team respects highly and tries to address all the needs of the user who needs documentation about installing, using and maintaining FreeBSD systems. Please keep in mind that even a simple comment like ``I've read this article and it sucks, because I didn't get anything described there'', has its worth. Suggestions for new text, corrections or even a simple ``I tried *foo* listed at the *bar* article, and it fails with *baz*'', are even more welcome. For more technically oriented users, we have our ``Project Ideas'' pages, which work as a wish-list: * http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ideas/ Things that we would like to see as new features, as fixes or even as small, incremental improvements to existing functionality are listed there. If you are a developer, and can help us flesh out some of the items listed in this page, you are more than welcome to jump in, and start working in one of the areas listed there. Even if you are *NOT* a developer, but you would find the experience interesting, educating, and a challenging opportunity to find out more about your favorite operating system, you are still welcome to do so. These are just a few pointers, since you asked :) -- Giorgos From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 27 21:26:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC8016A417 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:26:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stapleton.41@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.172]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A2243D66 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:25:57 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stapleton.41@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so705437uge for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kljwqGT3H3oUoNG5HG71Q1NrzMZ5KmfkfzFT35R+mJH0wCfMNEO0H0HcK6KX0JN20i0r029V+Ae93WTxri9gyd/2Nn315/OJsp6ise2Y1j7LIlB3UnyCu8IUZsqJeqR3eLgfAc/Lf/C3TjSMnMX0BFIFBi/XRDM5ktRPEAI6caI= Received: by 10.67.121.15 with SMTP id y15mr205192ugm; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.86.18 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <80f4f2b20610271425h3cc51427nb7ba61bb6db54143@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:25:57 -0400 From: "Jim Stapleton" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <35ffa5710610271212y4bd51341m3684b11a05192a10@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <80f4f2b20610261618l63660139m38ccb0ec682b947f@mail.gmail.com> <35ffa5710610271212y4bd51341m3684b11a05192a10@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: letter writing for FreeBSD support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:26:01 -0000 If you had the choice between binary blobs with well documented use, or fully binary drivers, which would you choose? I'm talking about a case, such as most notably with ATI or nVidia where there is 3rd party technology not belonging to (but liscenced by) the company, that has to be considered, and cannot be released. -Jim Stapleton On 10/27/06, Brad Davis wrote: > Hi Jim, > > Please remove the bits about binary blobs.. Those are a Bad Thing(tm). > > > Regards, > Brad Davis > > On 10/26/06, Jim Stapleton wrote: > > Hello, I've been talking with someone else here, and on a few other > > groups, and I'd like to try a letter writing campaign to Toshiba to > > try to get them to produce either open source drivers for the quirky > > parts of their notebooks, or if that is not possible, closed source > > drivers so that FreeBSD can run on them. I was wondering what the > > thoughts where here? The individual I've been emailing with (another > > [various]@freebsd.org poster), and he suggested this: > > > > > Do you think it'd be useful to send to advocacy@ for comments? They will > > > probably know a trick or two or correct things we've missed... then maybe send > > > openly to questions + mobile + multimedia.... wdyt? > > > > My letter template: > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear sir/ma'am > > > > I have read/heard several reports as to the quality of product and > > support for Toshiba notebooks. However, I have also read/heard many > > reports of their lack of driver support with non-Windows operating > > systems such as Linux and BSD. Unfortunately, I use _______ and would > > likely have compatibility issues with your product. Nonetheless I feel > > that your product would be a good option for my future purposes, if > > this area were fixed. Additionally the better driver support could > > help increase your market share, and defend the share that you have > > against other manufacturers who have good first or third party support > > for these operating systems (such as Dell and Lenovo). > > I am writing to request that you take one or more of the following > > actions, so that I myself, and other can find your otherwise excellent > > notebooks and service a viable option: > > > > a. Provide open source drivers for one or more open source operating > > systems, preferably Linux or BSD > > b. Provide sufficient documentation of Toshiba hardware so that > > drivers can be written by the open source community > > c. If your IP protection requires it, or you license external IP that > > requires it, create closed source drivers for at least Linux and the > > various incarnations of BSD. > > c. If your IP protection requires it, or you license external IP that > > requires it, create closed source binary blobs with documented OS > > independent accession methods (such that any x86 operating system > > could execute the blobs, even if machine level entry is required), and > > document the method needed to access these entry points. > > > > Thank you for your time > > > > > > ___________________ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Thanks, > > -Jim Stapleton > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 28 03:46:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FCB16A403 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:46:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com (nz-out-0102.google.com [64.233.162.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFD443D4C for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:46:01 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from joseph.koshy@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id o37so692109nzf for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:46:00 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=qLt8Cl6+rUsWz5HUhTBf+lGZzqkhgT/uQqIr2Dwlrogm3qB1JYNQNqL4KdckPPT6a5TRgsh3xDYjO+WoNYULCGDmnFQ0d9kTUgDSLtSaPkED2lyE3EGEy3W107eOzIv3GvknAct2ejqa4ZB8R71DND34Qp19pcet4xwXwxlxT8s= Received: by 10.65.84.6 with SMTP id m6mr555054qbl; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.203.6 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <84dead720610272046p79729f0ex350f4e0f5f6faf8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:16:00 +0530 From: "Joseph Koshy" To: "Jim Stapleton" In-Reply-To: <80f4f2b20610271425h3cc51427nb7ba61bb6db54143@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <80f4f2b20610261618l63660139m38ccb0ec682b947f@mail.gmail.com> <35ffa5710610271212y4bd51341m3684b11a05192a10@mail.gmail.com> <80f4f2b20610271425h3cc51427nb7ba61bb6db54143@mail.gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: letter writing for FreeBSD support X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:46:01 -0000 bd> Please remove the bits about binary blobs.. Those are a bd> Bad Thing(tm). js> If you had the choice between binary blobs with well js> documented use, or fully binary drivers, which would you js> choose? I'm talking about a case, such as most notably - For the user, binary kernel blobs are a huge security risk. - As a project we don't have a stable in-kernel API, so it is difficult for us to provide a stable kernel environment for binary blobs to run in. -- FreeBSD Volunteer, http://people.freebsd.org/~jkoshy