From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 4 02:48:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B36D16A536; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 02:48:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vrijlj@flying.to) Received: from flying.to (59-114-244-178.dynamic.hinet.net [59.114.244.178]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B63643D45; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 02:48:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vrijlj@flying.to) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:48:22 +0800 From: "pjppyttk vcfgrdpd" X-Sender: vrijlj@flying.to To: , Message-Id: <3863396609.DvdzzE-97301617-4708@flying.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: Stealth Microcap SBNS . pk X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 02:48:27 -0000 It really could'nt hurt to do a little research See what it feels to have 100% return SERIOUSLY SHALLBETTER INDUSTRIES INC (SBNS. 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All projects are given due diligence in research before conclusions are made as to accurate projections of profitability and feasibility. Any of the above statements with respect to the future predications or goals and events may be seen as only Foward speculation and nothing else. All information inside this email pertaining to any sort of financial advice need to be understood as just information and not any real advice. None of the information above can be constructed as any sort of financial advice. Confidentiality Statemen Results don't lie ----------------------- Stand your ground. What goes up must come down. There is always next year. When we love - we grow. A snail's pace. Read the tea leaves. Shiver me timber. Raking it in. Read the tea leaves. When pigs fly. That's a whole new can of worms. You throw filth on the living and flowers on the dead.Pin a rose on your nose. A stepping stone to. Schools out for summer. Spill the beans. Sow dry and set wet. 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From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 4 08:09:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D6116A4DE for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:09:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4631843D69 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:09:44 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8232086; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:09:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.4 (2006-07-25) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3A02082; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:09:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 27EFAB80E; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:09:39 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: soralx@cydem.org References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609010159.40972.soralx@cydem.org> <6a506d980609010247i4bfcafecoaead4b7e45311692@mail.gmail.com> <200609020217.58517.soralx@cydem.org> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:09:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200609020217.58517.soralx@cydem.org> (soralx@cydem.org's message of "Sat, 2 Sep 2006 02:17:58 -0700") Message-ID: <86r6yst5ml.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rsidd@imsc.res.in, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 08:09:50 -0000 soralx@cydem.org writes: > What if you: > are already watching a movie? > - have more than 1 dvd-rom and insert 2 disks at the same time, will it > automagically play the first part? Will it play the second part after? > Will it pause for 15 minutes before playing second dvd, so you can go > make some tea? > - inserted dvd to launch video without sound (to see what's on it), say, > because you are listening to music? > - forget that speaker volume is very high, and put in a dvd just to remove > it from bench so it doesn't collect dust, and view it later (and it's > 3 o'clock)? > - don't even want to mount the cd, but just want to check the media > manufacturer, to see how long the media will last? And then test > every CD from the collection? (yeah, turning off DVD auto-play is > really useful here) > > Do you always want the movie to start full-screen? You're tilting at windmills. I don't know of any OS that automatically starts playing a movie when you insert the DVD. What usually happens is simply that the movie player application pops up; you still have to press play to start the movie. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 4 08:27:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC8B16A4DD for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:27:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885F443D45 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 08:27:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 8024890A14; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 01:27:49 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 01:27:49 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609020217.58517.soralx@cydem.org> <86r6yst5ml.fsf@dwp.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86r6yst5ml.fsf@dwp.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609040127.49629.soralx@cydem.org> Cc: rsidd@imsc.res.in Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 08:27:50 -0000 > You're tilting at windmills. I don't know of any OS that > automatically starts playing a movie when you insert the DVD. What > usually happens is simply that the movie player application pops up; > you still have to press play to start the movie. Now you really confused me %) Is there a possible benefit of doing that? Anyone can type, say, `mplayer dvd://` + any needed options, faster than the media is even recognized by a DVD-ROM. > DES [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 4 09:20:41 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F0116A4DA for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:20:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7ECE43D45 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 09:20:40 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spam.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A0C2086; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:20:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Tests: AWL X-Spam-Learn: disabled X-Spam-Score: 0.0/3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.4 (2006-07-25) on tim.des.no Received: from dwp.des.no (des.no [80.203.243.180]) by tim.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDB32082; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:20:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 17F1EB80E; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 11:20:34 +0200 (CEST) From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) To: soralx@cydem.org References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609020217.58517.soralx@cydem.org> <86r6yst5ml.fsf@dwp.des.no> <200609040127.49629.soralx@cydem.org> Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 11:20:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200609040127.49629.soralx@cydem.org> (soralx@cydem.org's message of "Mon, 4 Sep 2006 01:27:49 -0700") Message-ID: <86k64kt2cd.fsf@dwp.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: rsidd@imsc.res.in, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 09:20:41 -0000 soralx@cydem.org writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav writes: > > You're tilting at windmills. I don't know of any OS that > > automatically starts playing a movie when you insert the DVD. What > > usually happens is simply that the movie player application pops up; > > you still have to press play to start the movie. > Now you really confused me %) Is there a possible benefit of doing that? > Anyone can type, say, `mplayer dvd://` + any needed options, faster than > the media is even recognized by a DVD-ROM. I'll bet you a dime to a dollar your grandma can't. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 4 10:42:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E6616A4E0 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:42:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from cydem.org (S0106000103ce4c9c.vc.shawcable.net [24.87.27.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B98043D97 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 10:42:05 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from soralx@cydem.org) Received: from soralx.cydem.org (unknown [192.168.0.249]) by cydem.org (Postfix/FreeBSD) with ESMTP id 0D0F690A14 for ; Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:42:04 -0700 (PDT) From: soralx@cydem.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 03:42:05 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <200609040127.49629.soralx@cydem.org> <86k64kt2cd.fsf@dwp.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86k64kt2cd.fsf@dwp.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609040342.05659.soralx@cydem.org> Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 10:42:12 -0000 > soralx@cydem.org writes: > > Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes: > > > You're tilting at windmills. I don't know of any OS that > > > automatically starts playing a movie when you insert the DVD. What > > > usually happens is simply that the movie player application pops up; > > > you still have to press play to start the movie. > > Now you really confused me %) Is there a possible benefit of doing that? > > Anyone can type, say, `mplayer dvd://` + any needed options, faster than > > the media is even recognized by a DVD-ROM. > > I'll bet you a dime to a dollar your grandma can't. No, thanks, I'll pass on your bet. But... Grandma? Interfacing to a COMPUTER?? Through a keyboard??? (e.g., without a remote-control) Come on, what's the probability of this happening? Of course, it is _possible_. However, for such rare occasions it's easier just to install something not unlike KDE, and create a link ('shortcut' it is termed, I believe) named 'Wath_a_movie' which executes the above mentioned command. Then no-one will need to mess around with finding where 'Play' is :p Wouldn't this be simpler too, compared to making the OS to detect when a DVD was swallowed, etc (although, if I'm not mistaken, it's easy, now that we have GEOM). Simple and reliable. > DES [SorAlx] ridin' VN1500-B2 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 03:06:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE8316A4E9 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:06:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wwwrun@h5497.serverkompetenz.net) Received: from h5497.serverkompetenz.net (nickeys.de [81.169.174.238]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C5043D64 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:06:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wwwrun@h5497.serverkompetenz.net) Received: by h5497.serverkompetenz.net (Postfix, from userid 30) id 6029786557A; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:02:20 +0200 (CEST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: WellsFargo Online Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20060905030220.6029786557A@h5497.serverkompetenz.net> Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:02:20 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Urgent Action : Your Account Has Been Suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 03:06:17 -0000 [logo_62sq.gif] [coach.gif] Dear valued WellsFargo member: Due to concerns, for the safety and integrity of the wellsfargo account we have issued this warning message We have noticed that your Wells Fargo online account needs to be updated onceagain, please enteryour online account information, because we haveto verify all of the online accounts after we have updated our Wells FargoOnline Banking site. 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References 1. http://www.piles.gr/themes/piles/images/.sec/www.wellsfargo.com/updateyouracount/index.html?wellsfargo.comlogin.uersr 2. http://www.piles.gr/themes/piles/images/.sec/www.wellsfargo.com/updateyouracount/index.html?wellsfargo.comlogin.uersr 3. http://mail.yahoo.com/config/login?/ym/Compose?To=myershh@wellsfargo.com 4. http://www.wellsfargo.com/about/about.jhtml 5. http://www.wellsfargo.com/employment 6. http://www.wellsfargo.com/privacy_security/email_fraud/report.jhtml 7. http://www.wellsfargo.com/privacy_security/index.jhtml 8. http://www.wellsfargo.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 03:11:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A35D16A4DA for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:11:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wwwrun@h5497.serverkompetenz.net) Received: from h5497.serverkompetenz.net (nickeys.de [81.169.174.238]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4C843D46 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 03:11:54 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from wwwrun@h5497.serverkompetenz.net) Received: by h5497.serverkompetenz.net (Postfix, from userid 30) id 0C08C866878; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:04:34 +0200 (CEST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: WellsFargo Online Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20060905030434.0C08C866878@h5497.serverkompetenz.net> Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 05:04:34 +0200 (CEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Urgent Action : Your Account Has Been Suspended X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 03:11:55 -0000 [logo_62sq.gif] [coach.gif] Dear valued WellsFargo member: Due to concerns, for the safety and integrity of the wellsfargo account we have issued this warning message We have noticed that your Wells Fargo online account needs to be updated onceagain, please enteryour online account information, because we haveto verify all of the online accounts after we have updated our Wells FargoOnline Banking site. 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References 1. http://www.piles.gr/themes/piles/images/.sec/www.wellsfargo.com/updateyouracount/index.html?wellsfargo.comlogin.uersr 2. http://www.piles.gr/themes/piles/images/.sec/www.wellsfargo.com/updateyouracount/index.html?wellsfargo.comlogin.uersr 3. http://mail.yahoo.com/config/login?/ym/Compose?To=myershh@wellsfargo.com 4. http://www.wellsfargo.com/about/about.jhtml 5. http://www.wellsfargo.com/employment 6. http://www.wellsfargo.com/privacy_security/email_fraud/report.jhtml 7. http://www.wellsfargo.com/privacy_security/index.jhtml 8. http://www.wellsfargo.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 06:50:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B514016A4DA for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 06:50:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AFF43D6B for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 06:50:06 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k856o4tb033494 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:50:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) with UUCP id k856o4Td033493; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:50:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k856nIvr014671; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:49:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.13.8/8.13.4/Submit) id k856nIkg014670; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:49:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:49:18 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Message-ID: <20060905064918.GA13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.1-STABLE X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:50:10 -0000 On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 11:59:57AM +0200, Gilbert Fernandes wrote: > I have a dream. > > A dream of unification. > > Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping > incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. > > But when you tell yourself that it cannot be done, you don't even > try it. > > It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their projects, > but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in > other projects. > > Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on > like everyone. > > Am I alone thinking this ? Sure would be kind of nice, but in practice its nearly like saying, "I want that the world gets one car". Please unify Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, VW and all of their models ;-) With design goal: Modularize car in a way, that the different customer demands can be achieved as options. You'll get problems in many ways ... - too many different - partly contradictory - design goals. One car is more a racing car, the other tries to be kind to mother nature - too different customers demands - different company cultures ... - many leaders that have to give up their own goals and synchronize with each other - say good-bye to own companies history and habits and be open to be only part of a new team For a volunteer project it sounds nearly impossible to synchronize all the different people with different goals and culture to the project targets _and_ be productive and write good code ! If the situation of NetBSD is the way like Charles Hannum describes - I'm no insider therefore I formulate it carefully this way - then a possible way could be a fork of NetBSD. But does the world really needs one more BSD ? Maybe the discussion itself is useful for making a cut and trying to reorganize the team by avoiding all that turns out to be a misconception. If this is not possible and people are convinced a fork with a strong leader would bring more merits and productivity, then a fork still could be done later. A fork off alone from NetBSD by keeping all the CPU and architecture support might be very tricky and difficult. Its questionable if one person is able to draw good design decisions that are well for all different NetBSD ports (here I mean the different architectures). Maybe a fork would need to specialize on one or some CPU types that a small team is able to handle. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 07:00:09 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F8D16A4E1 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:00:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15CE43D4C for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:00:08 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k85707tb033656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:00:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) with UUCP id k85706xV033655; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:00:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k856tg9L014770; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:55:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.13.8/8.13.4/Submit) id k856tgGT014769; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:55:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:55:42 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060905065542.GB13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.1-STABLE X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:00:09 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > > >On 31/08/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > >>Just a stupid comment, but ... Linux is one kernel, multiple distributions > >>... BSD is, what, 4 kernels now? If we worked more together instead of as > >>seperate camps, it might make things a bit easier, no? > > > >Isn't there still fewer differences between *BSD operating systems > >than between different GNU/Linux distributions and kernel releases? :) > > > >>Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and > >>steer the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... > > > >I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all > >different goals... > > Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD > ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be > asier to get support at the vendor level, no? Are you really sure ? I see it more this way: For Linux on kernel (or device driver) level they only have to support 2 main trains: 2.4.x and 2.6.x. The 50 distributions are only a burden if it comes to the point what different shared library / Java / TCL / etc ... versions are packaged with the OS. A friend of mine doing Java development had severe issues with all that different Linux versions. But a simple kernel driver only has to honour different CPU types and the 2.4 and 2.6 tree and maybe now a development tree but am not sure on the latter ... Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 07:05:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 716EA16A4DA; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:05:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA9C43D73; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 07:05:07 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k85755tb033842 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:05:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) with UUCP id k85755nY033841; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:05:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: from titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (localhost.klemm.apsfilter.org [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.apsfilter.org (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k8572JNl014890; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:02:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by titan.klemm.apsfilter.org (8.13.8/8.13.4/Submit) id k8572JRo014889; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:02:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:02:19 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> References: <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.1-STABLE X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:05:13 -0000 On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 08:14:31PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Miod Vallat wrote: > > >>If the vendor is supporting the driver, and working with the community, > >>then one would hope that they would also fix the driver as bug reports > >>come in about it ... > > > >That's too many ifs to be realworld-compatible. > > > >And actually the only vendors I can think of which are working with the > >community actually provide documentation, if only because it is simpler > >for them to spend time on documentation than on code for N different > >systems. > > ICP Vortex (aka Adaptec) were providing drivers on their web site for > FreeBSD 4.x and 5.x that are included in both source trees ... it was a > binary driver, as far as I'm aware, but source code ... and Adaptec > doesn't provide documentation ... I don't think that binary only drivers are well enough. Surely better than nothing but ... Don't forget that an open source team sometimes makes api changes that might break a "binary only" driver. And companies sometimes are slow in fixing. Or the vendor did some mistakes in his own driver. First the paying customers are served. All the other folks (open source ..) surely will come last. For some smaller corps supporting open source developers is simply a burden that costs time and so money. I know this from a medium sized german company producing nice audio recording cards. It was impossible to get a card and documentation from them for a FreeBSD developers. And after weeks and months of asking via e-mail they decided finally to tell the truth that they don't want to support open source developers anymore, it makes too much work. They are unable to spend so much time answering open source developers questions although they got documentation. This experience they made with Linux developers. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 08:29:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529A216A4ED for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:29:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from evil@evildomain.org) Received: from evildomain.org (adsl-75-4-228-0.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net [75.4.228.0]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7D943D62 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:29:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from evil@evildomain.org) Received: by evildomain.org (Postfix, from userid 1013) id 432201DB; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 01:28:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on evildomain.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.1 Received: from [192.168.1.99] (unknown [192.168.1.1]) by evildomain.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E2965 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 01:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44FD356B.9060509@evildomain.org> Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 01:29:31 -0700 From: Aaron Holmes User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Google Code Jam X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:29:27 -0000 I'm curious is any fellow FreeBSD users are participating in code jam this year, what language(s) they'll be using, etc. only 8 hours till it starts! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 08:52:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B6F16A4E1 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:52:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vijaykiran.duvvuri@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.239]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF6F43D6A for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:52:23 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from vijaykiran.duvvuri@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s16so2185838wxc for ; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 01:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gniQ2oCM1FYHVA71XICAskK9spuM4mbvGsy9//43uEPoqh27CpmMaHDRzRiBgz7SJI+kseA3hAZaPdfDMcpjtw7Mdur1zrPBleQ0YgMf4Uw4919VuTT+eVBhjpK4xGjiY3ehrB1nYc3RayqAnTCNxmnuofYT3ZoPmbsDEjWvvwQ= Received: by 10.70.90.14 with SMTP id n14mr9438634wxb; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 01:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.95.14 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 01:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1674d2d00609050150v3d03fbfeo92d6b2990060a30f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:20:40 +0530 From: "Vijay Kiran Duvvuri" Sender: vijaykiran.duvvuri@gmail.com To: "Aaron Holmes" In-Reply-To: <44FD356B.9060509@evildomain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <44FD356B.9060509@evildomain.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4bbd75e7dfea37a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Google Code Jam X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:52:29 -0000 Hi Aaron, I'm participating in Google Code Jam, I'll be using Java as my language. On 9/5/06, Aaron Holmes wrote: > > I'm curious is any fellow FreeBSD users are participating in code jam > this year, what language(s) they'll be using, etc. > only 8 hours till it starts! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Regards, Vijay Kiran, www.vijaykiran.com From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 09:13:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E1616A4DE for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:13:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hundalz@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE47D43D46 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:13:04 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from hundalz@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id o67so3341801pye for ; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 02:13:04 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gLMEb/4vnsHEroSNWUODYe4/D8cxCxMAu6eBtzLQZ8CiN9BuzuLzUKQ5WmaJM/e3F6Zr85jN6ZwsIDEndiAhRS51v7ZForaafDqeqFYuhS+ICQK88zwauGe3iht8bSMcwB3UCqXsQF6p48Ct1OpprFV1ESOSZm17Q6PVjwZuMqc= Received: by 10.65.122.15 with SMTP id z15mr6588382qbm; Tue, 05 Sep 2006 02:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.197.17 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 02:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <621a3d0609050213m1a48e642xe19e4f3f51c709b8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:13:03 +0100 From: "Roopinder Singh" Sender: hundalz@gmail.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20060905065542.GB13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060905065542.GB13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 566c07e2c0ec525e Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 09:13:05 -0000 On 9/5/06, Andreas Klemm wrote: > The 50 distributions are only a burden if it comes to the point > what different shared library / Java / TCL / etc ... versions > are packaged with the OS. > > A friend of mine doing Java development had severe issues with > all that different Linux versions. Bit OT here: unless you're doing some JNI or SWT (using GTK) then Java by itself is pretty self contained. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 14:18:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69AD916A4DE; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:18:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from slash@peereboom.us) Received: from dev.peereboom.us (adsl-67-64-89-177.dsl.austtx.swbell.net [67.64.89.177]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D0543D49; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:18:11 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from slash@peereboom.us) Received: from dev.peereboom.us (marco@localhost.peereboom.us [127.0.0.1]) by dev.peereboom.us (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k85EI5ZI023293; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:18:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from marco@localhost) by dev.peereboom.us (8.13.8/8.13.4/Submit) id k85EI2Fu022925; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:18:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dev.peereboom.us: marco set sender to slash@peereboom.us using -f Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 09:18:02 -0500 From: Marco Peereboom To: Andreas Klemm Message-ID: <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> References: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:18:12 -0000 > I don't think that binary only drivers are well enough. > Surely better than nothing but ... No fucking way. No support is FAR FAR better than a blob. Yes, really! > > Don't forget that an open source team sometimes makes api changes > that might break a "binary only" driver. And companies sometimes > are slow in fixing. A.K.A. Never. And when they try it usually doesn't work right. Worst of all *you* have no clue how they kludged a so called fix together. Vendor code is usually pretty darn bad and I wonder why people never revolt against that. > > Or the vendor did some mistakes in his own driver. > First the paying customers are served. All the other folks > (open source ..) surely will come last. Open source users paid for the hardware didn't they? Or because they use an alternative OS now they stole the hardware? This argument is retarded. > > For some smaller corps supporting open source developers is > simply a burden that costs time and so money. Docs are part of the development process. If they are not than you don't want that hardware. > > I know this from a medium sized german company producing nice > audio recording cards. > > It was impossible to get a card and documentation from them for > a FreeBSD developers. And after weeks and months of asking via > e-mail they decided finally to tell the truth that they don't > want to support open source developers anymore, it makes too much > work. They are unable to spend so much time answering open source > developers questions although they got documentation. This experience > they made with Linux developers. I call horseshit on this one too. Vendors do not have to support shit if they free their docs. NOTHING because the OS developers will do it for FREE for them. This argument is a steaming pile of shit with peanuts in it. It is this attitude that is killing Linux and FreeBSD. They will allow anyone to shit and piss in their sandbox and say "GREAT THANKS!" You people need to get through your heads that blobs are killing your operating system that you pretend to care so much about. Allowing blobs is the equivalent of eating fast food; it is convenient now but 10 years from now your ass wont fit through the door. A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights. -- Napoleon Bonaparte > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 > Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 15:18:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7C416A4E7 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:18:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Rick.Hamell@nike.com) Received: from barriere241.nike.com (barriere241.nike.com [146.197.27.91]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAE443EE4 for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:13:02 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from Rick.Hamell@nike.com) X-Server-Uuid: BDE2CC8B-9671-48D4-9A25-CA756DA0A621 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.5.060620 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 08:12:06 -0700 From: "Hamell, Rick (ACS)" To: des@des.no, soralx@cydem.org Message-ID: <200609051512.k85FCN0v029560@barriere241.nike.com> Thread-Topic: The future of NetBSD Thread-Index: AcbQ/aYu5QWUnjzwEdunLQAWyzhIhA== In-Reply-To: <86r6yst5ml.fsf@dwp.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Sep 2006 15:12:08.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7742D70:01C6D0FD] X-WSS-ID: 68E34C441IK939598-01-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: rsidd@imsc.res.in, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:18:38 -0000 >> Do you always want the movie to start full-screen? > > You're tilting at windmills. I don't know of any OS that > automatically starts playing a movie when you insert the DVD. What > usually happens is simply that the movie player application pops up; > you still have to press play to start the movie. Just for the record, OSX does using DVDPlayer. Of course the savvy user can change that, but the "normal" user expects that behavior. -- Rick Hamell Advanced Macintosh Desktop Support 503.671.2147 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 5 22:51:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED73016A4E2; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 22:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chefren@pi.net) Received: from smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.25]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E6643D45; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 22:51:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from chefren@pi.net) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (a213-84-21-112.adsl.xs4all.nl [213.84.21.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-vbr5.xs4all.nl (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k85MpJdC020431; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 00:51:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chefren@pi.net) Message-ID: <44FDFF67.2070700@pi.net> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 00:51:19 +0200 From: chefren User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.0.6) Gecko/20060729 SeaMonkey/1.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco Peereboom References: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> In-Reply-To: <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Cc: netbsd-users@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Blobs X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:51:26 -0000 On 9/5/06 4:18 PM, Marco Peereboom wrote: > Allowing blobs is the equivalent of eating fast food; it is > convenient now but 10 years from now your ass wont fit through the > door. I don't know why but I feel someone has won here, no idea which contest it was or what but this quote will help a wider audience understand the blob case. xxx chefren From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 6 01:54:26 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A11416A4E2; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:54:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from stefabov@fastmail.fm) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1DD43D4C; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:54:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from stefabov@fastmail.fm) Received: from frontend3.internal (frontend3.internal [10.202.2.152]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0443DA58E0; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 21:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web4.internal ([10.202.2.213]) by frontend3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Sep 2006 21:54:24 -0400 Received: by web4.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id B2C327688; Tue, 5 Sep 2006 21:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1157507663.12198.270219068@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: WUM7U9YP92kAQAOWPxshpg6LlV0303DK6B1su/4T+uE5 1157507663 From: "Stefan Bojilov" To: "Andreas Klemm" , misc@openbsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <20060905065542.GB13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> In-Reply-To: <20060905065542.GB13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 18:54:23 -0700 Cc: Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 01:54:26 -0000 On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 08:55:42 +0200, "Andreas Klemm" said: > On Thu, Aug 31, 2006 at 06:50:00PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006, Constantine A. Murenin wrote: > > > > >On 31/08/06, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > >>Just a stupid comment, but ... Linux is one kernel, multiple distributions > > >>... BSD is, what, 4 kernels now? If we worked more together instead of as > > >>seperate camps, it might make things a bit easier, no? > > > > > >Isn't there still fewer differences between *BSD operating systems > > >than between different GNU/Linux distributions and kernel releases? :) > > > > > >>Put together a *BSD "core" ... representative from each camp and try and > > >>steer the *kernel* itself towards a more common BSD ... > > > > > >I doubt that'll be productive -- NetBSD, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all > > >different goals... > > > > Even at the kernel level? Look at device drivers and vendors as one > > example ... companies like adaptec have to write *one* device driver, for, > > what, 50+ distributions of linux ... for us, they need to write one for > > FreeBSD, one for NetBSD, one for OpenBSD, and *now* one for DragonflyBSD > > ... if we had *at least* a common API for that sort of stuff, it might be > > asier to get support at the vendor level, no? > > Are you really sure ? I see it more this way: For Linux on kernel > (or device driver) level they only have to support 2 main trains: > 2.4.x and 2.6.x. > > The 50 distributions are only a burden if it comes to the point > what different shared library / Java / TCL / etc ... versions > are packaged with the OS. > > A friend of mine doing Java development had severe issues with > all that different Linux versions. > > But a simple kernel driver only has to honour different CPU types > and the 2.4 and 2.6 tree and maybe now a development tree but > am not sure on the latter ... > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 > Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ For what it's worth: Linux kernel interfaces change every day - I mean every minor release. Linux makes it very hard to support drivers for it. Just look inside a module DEVELOPED OUTSIDE THE KERNEL TREE, you will see an incredible mess of #if KERNEL_VERSION... Virtualy everyone that started some module gave up supporting it. If it is not picked up by the kernel or by some Debian developer, the module dissapears.The internet is littered with orphaned Linux modules. Best Regards -- Stefan Bojilov stefabov@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 6 07:47:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C816A4E1 for ; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from aldebaran.riscworks.net (aldebaran.riscworks.net [217.13.197.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7467D43D46 for ; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:37 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from aldebaran.riscworks.net (localhost.riscworks.net [127.0.0.1]) by aldebaran.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1283F452; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 09:47:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.100.102] (dslb-088-073-021-014.pools.arcor-ip.net [88.73.21.14]) by aldebaran.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026E03F441; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 09:47:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <44FE7D14.4060909@riscworks.net> Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:47:32 +0200 From: Timo Schoeler Organization: RISCworks User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Macintosh/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jadacuma@ched.gov.ph References: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> <64617.61.9.41.179.1157518242.squirrel@co-mail.ched.gov.ph> In-Reply-To: <64617.61.9.41.179.1157518242.squirrel@co-mail.ched.gov.ph> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: freshly checked on Wed Sep 6 09:47:35 2006 +0200 (CEST) by RISCworks eMail Suite Cc: Marco Peereboom , miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 07:47:38 -0000 thus Joseph A. Dacuma spake: >>> I don't think that binary only drivers are well enough. >>> Surely better than nothing but ... >> No fucking way. No support is FAR FAR better than a blob. Yes, really! >> >>> Don't forget that an open source team sometimes makes api changes >>> that might break a "binary only" driver. And companies sometimes >>> are slow in fixing. >> A.K.A. Never. And when they try it usually doesn't work right. Worst of >> all >> *you* have no clue how they kludged a so called fix together. Vendor code >> is >> usually pretty darn bad and I wonder why people never revolt against that. >> >>> Or the vendor did some mistakes in his own driver. >>> First the paying customers are served. All the other folks >>> (open source ..) surely will come last. >> Open source users paid for the hardware didn't they? Or because they use >> an >> alternative OS now they stole the hardware? This argument is retarded. >> >>> For some smaller corps supporting open source developers is >>> simply a burden that costs time and so money. >> Docs are part of the development process. If they are not than you don't >> want >> that hardware. >> >>> I know this from a medium sized german company producing nice >>> audio recording cards. >>> >>> It was impossible to get a card and documentation from them for >>> a FreeBSD developers. And after weeks and months of asking via >>> e-mail they decided finally to tell the truth that they don't >>> want to support open source developers anymore, it makes too much >>> work. They are unable to spend so much time answering open source >>> developers questions although they got documentation. This experience >>> they made with Linux developers. >> I call horseshit on this one too. Vendors do not have to support shit if >> they >> free their docs. NOTHING because the OS developers will do it for FREE >> for >> them. This argument is a steaming pile of shit with peanuts in it. >> >> It is this attitude that is killing Linux and FreeBSD. They will allow >> anyone >> to shit and piss in their sandbox and say "GREAT THANKS!" >> >> You people need to get through your heads that blobs are killing your >> operating >> system that you pretend to care so much about. Allowing blobs is the >> equivalent of eating fast food; it is convenient now but 10 years from now >> your >> ass wont fit through the door. >> >> A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights. >> -- Napoleon Bonaparte >> >>> Andreas /// >>> >>> -- >>> Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 6 >>> Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ >>> > > Hi All! > > I agree totally with Mr. Peereboom. IMHO, BLOBS are not sustainable in the > long run. If a manufacturer decides to retire a particular model (driver > support included) while OS keeps on releasing newer versions (which > include changes in the design and/or how things are implemented) one will > be facing two scenarios: stasis or an unstable system. Both I believe is > distasteful. definitely. but on the other hand there's 15 minutes of fame if you support a device (using a blob) today -- as others won't support it. > I'd rather purchase hardware that will enable me to (ab)use it until it no > longer works (MBTF deadend) using either NetBSD or OpenBSD :). true, but NetBSD allows blobs. > Joseph A. Dacuma timo From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 6 08:09:25 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5094416A4DF for ; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:09:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phessler@theapt.org) Received: from gir.theapt.org (gir.theapt.org [209.204.157.98]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9E443D45 for ; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:09:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from phessler@theapt.org) Received: from zombie.theapt.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:5a8:4:e0:20f:b0ff:fef6:4619]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by gir.theapt.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B2C39596; Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 01:09:13 -0700 From: Peter Hessler To: Timo Schoeler In-Reply-To: <44FE7D14.4060909@riscworks.net> References: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> <64617.61.9.41.179.1157518242.squirrel@co-mail.ched.gov.ph> <44FE7D14.4060909@riscworks.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed-Claws 1.9.6 (GTK+ 2.8.20; x86_64-unknown-openbsd4.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20060906080923.58B2C39596@gir.theapt.org> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:09:25 -0000 On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 09:47:32 +0200 Timo Schoeler wrote: : > Hi All! : > : > I agree totally with Mr. Peereboom. IMHO, BLOBS are not sustainable : > in the long run. If a manufacturer decides to retire a particular : > model (driver support included) while OS keeps on releasing newer : > versions (which include changes in the design and/or how things are : > implemented) one will be facing two scenarios: stasis or an : > unstable system. Both I believe is distasteful. : : definitely. but on the other hand there's 15 minutes of fame if you : support a device (using a blob) today -- as others won't support it. If you want 15 minutes of fame, go rob a liquor store. -- One thing the inventors can't seem to get the bugs out of is fresh paint. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 9 20:42:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4329916A407 for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:42:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roukounas@gmail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.180]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F6A43D46 for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 20:42:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from roukounas@gmail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id o67so1324153pye for ; Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:42:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=OJDuR93jRHSL0jaWLU+A/6KXHYrfxLkPmczHMiJqmwBrovfw9af5QDLUi8O/GMJYimN/AfTDCup/5eCWg6XDDgLPSUr8XWvM4EtuWWRrPA2icsrUhI4sS7XOiar1LTMfRfebQ5tUiWzwpat2jtOOU0ATXok1jIj1Q3ZJTKdwnus= Received: by 10.35.109.2 with SMTP id l2mr5514586pym; Sat, 09 Sep 2006 13:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.132.14 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 13:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:42:25 +0100 From: "rouk ounas" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 20:42:27 -0000 On 9/1/06, Gilbert Fernandes wrote: > I have a dream. > > A dream of unification. > > Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping > incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. > > But when you tell yourself that it cannot be done, you don't even > try it. > > It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their projects, > but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in > other projects. > > Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on > like everyone. > > Am I alone thinking this ? I would disagree with that. Is not unification we need, it is unity. Instead of speaking about the [Net, Open, Free, DragonFly]BSD community, we should be talking about the BSD community as a whole. I'm using Free, but when Open asks vendors to give driver docs, and when Net is spiralling down, it should be a problem for all the BSDs. Like bsdstats.org is considering, they are all bsd. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 9 21:22:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748DE16A407 for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:22:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [200.46.204.220]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB5643D6B for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:22:36 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from scrappy@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (wm.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61160291B03; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:22:35 -0300 (ADT) Received: from hub.org ([200.46.204.220]) by localhost (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.128]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20645-01; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 21:22:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ganymede.hub.org (blk-137-86-60.eastlink.ca [24.137.86.60]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47168291AFE; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:22:00 -0300 (ADT) Received: by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix, from userid 1027) id BD4F35C356; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:22:03 -0300 (ADT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ganymede.hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC61B5C337; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:22:03 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 18:22:03 -0300 (ADT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" X-X-Sender: freebsd@ganymede.hub.org To: rouk ounas In-Reply-To: <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060909182107.U10669@ganymede.hub.org> References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <98f5a8830608301731s2b0663e3g94b0bd32f8a06a78@mail.gmail.com> <950621ad0608310654h78ae0023g346abd108815ae72@mail.gmail.com> <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <1157040361.44f708e9d119d@imp3-g19.free.fr> <29ca6cf80609091342r664eba09u1f369d3210c14d18@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: miros-discuss@mirbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-users@netbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 21:22:42 -0000 On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, rouk ounas wrote: > On 9/1/06, Gilbert Fernandes wrote: >> I have a dream. >> >> A dream of unification. >> >> Having one BSD. Merging the three projects and, why not, keeping >> incompatible stuff as options that would be either one or another. >> >> But when you tell yourself that it cannot be done, you don't even >> try it. >> >> It would require people to not only do it for the sake of their projects, >> but for the whole BSD people. Even those who really piss you off in >> other projects. >> >> Because someday, those projects will live on without us. We'll pass on >> like everyone. >> >> Am I alone thinking this ? > > I would disagree with that. Is not unification we need, it is unity. > > Instead of speaking about the [Net, Open, Free, DragonFly]BSD > community, we should be talking about the BSD community as a whole. > > I'm using Free, but when Open asks vendors to give driver docs, and > when Net is spiralling down, it should be a problem for all the BSDs. I couldn't have said it better! And what I'm learning with bsdstats.org is that there are more then just those four ... GNU/kFreeBSD is reporting, as is MirBSD ... main index page hasn't been updated yet ... are there any others? ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 9 23:26:18 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB4316A40F for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 23:26:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.228]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA7643D45 for ; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 23:26:17 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mureninc@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1112643wxd for ; Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:26:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=KpisEZWtQoTydix5cB7FGD1rjTqnfDCr365OYZG7ppi6NWe2HEauZsU29L1t8mm1dO2qya4q+/oZr2pOtSiIUebp0ORBZ3tTAE04TxcpKRNKJi2adFFS9f3+0PJXcB+akcRL/wPOd+utWczEIFAt9pW0ojUfJhbETcju3m3MUmc= Received: by 10.70.73.12 with SMTP id v12mr3042999wxa; Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.3 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Sep 2006 16:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 19:19:42 -0400 From: "Constantine A. Murenin" To: "Marco Peereboom" In-Reply-To: <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060831110112.J82634@hub.org> <20060831184715.B82634@hub.org> <44F7619B.8010609@evilkittens.org> <20060831192632.T82634@hub.org> <20060831225719.GG25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831200228.B82634@hub.org> <20060831230642.GH25515@ribeyre.gentiane.org> <20060831201338.F82634@hub.org> <20060905070219.GC13764@titan.klemm.apsfilter.org> <20060905141802.GB5021@peereboom.us> Cc: netbsd-users@netbsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2006 23:26:18 -0000 On 05/09/06, Marco Peereboom wrote: > > I don't think that binary only drivers are well enough. > > Surely better than nothing but ... > > No fucking way. No support is FAR FAR better than a blob. Yes, really! Indeed! When something brakes, do you want it to continue to work as if nothing has happened and lose your data silently, or do you want it to give you some indication that it needs attention? * With binary drivers, it's always broken (and if it's not, it's guaranteed to be broken in the future), but some people tend to [foolishly] think that it's working. * With drivers written from proper documentation by developers who know their OS, it just works. BTW, I'd argue that the same principle applies to the manufacturer-supplied drivers for closed-source operating systems like Windows -- it's better to have the drivers written by people who know the OS it's written under, not by some random people hired by the company that produced the hardware (which would never be the same people who designed the hardware anyway, because people who design hardware don't usually write software for it, and vice-versa). Cheers, Constantine.