From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 5 18:56:46 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1872416A498 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:56:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from ca.pugetsoundtechnology.com (ca.pugetsoundtechnology.com [38.99.2.247]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAA413C474 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:56:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from pool-71-123-204-253.dllstx.fios.verizon.net ([71.123.204.253] helo=reedmedia.net) by ca.pugetsoundtechnology.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.54) id 1HE90t-0006v2-8N for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:56:27 -0800 Received: from reed@reedmedia.net by reedmedia.net with local (mailout 0.17) id 21971-1170701784; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:56:25 -0600 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:56:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: license change policy for patches added for ports? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:56:46 -0000 I am curious about if FreeBSD has a policy on licenses for patches added to ports? I am looking through the FreeBSD Porter's handbook and don't see anything mentioned yet. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/porters-handbook/slow-patch.html doesn't mention licensing. The port where I have heard complaints about is the added copyright to ports/audio/cdparanoia Any comments? Any policy? One idea would be that anything added to FreeBSD ports files patches should need to be under the same original license. But I understand there could be exceptions. Mostly I am just curious. Jeremy C. Reed From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 5 21:06:51 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D886516A40F for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:06:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from itetcu@FreeBSD.org) Received: from it.buh.tecnik93.com (it.buh.tecnik93.com [81.196.204.98]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F9F13C4A7 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:06:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from itetcu@FreeBSD.org) Received: from it.buh.tecnik93.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by it.buh.tecnik93.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6375117131; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:06:47 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 23:06:46 +0200 From: Ion-Mihai "IOnut" Tetcu To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Message-ID: <20070205230646.1b91a5c8@it.buh.tecnik93.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 2.7.2 (GTK+ 2.10.9; i386-portbld-freebsd6.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_uAG9ILrC=6xKiPWEeL7juUv"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: license change policy for patches added for ports? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:06:51 -0000 --Sig_uAG9ILrC=6xKiPWEeL7juUv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:56:24 -0600 (CST) "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > I am curious about if FreeBSD has a policy on licenses for patches > added to ports? >=20 > I am looking through the FreeBSD Porter's handbook and don't see > anything mentioned yet.=20 >=20 > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/porters-handbook/slow-pa= tch.html=20 > doesn't mention licensing. >=20 > The port where I have heard complaints about is the added copyright to > ports/audio/cdparanoia >=20 > Any comments? Any policy? >=20 > One idea would be that anything added to FreeBSD ports files patches > should need to be under the same original license. But I understand > there could be exceptions. One of the PR guides[lines] mention that unless otherwise specified everything submitted is under BSD licence. But yeh, given the mad word we're living in maybe we should make this more visible. --=20 IOnut - Un^d^dregistered ;) FreeBSD "user" "Intellectual Property" is nowhere near as valuable as "Intellect" BOFH excuse #40: not enough memory, go get system upgrade --Sig_uAG9ILrC=6xKiPWEeL7juUv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFFx5xmBX6fi0k6KXsRAp0HAKCGbd0vJ4b0MI2nyHyvlxgtEMwsDwCdF4a+ PnegIoDwornoCuXBiH+Qz10= =Iqe3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_uAG9ILrC=6xKiPWEeL7juUv-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 6 18:54:37 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6249B16A400 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:54:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from ezekiel.daleco.biz (southernuniform.com [66.76.92.18]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1889313C48D for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:54:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from [192.168.2.2] (archangel.daleco.biz [69.27.145.126]) by ezekiel.daleco.biz (8.13.4/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l16Ie1ux028317 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:40:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Message-ID: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 12:39:55 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.8.0.7) Gecko/20060925 SeaMonkey/1.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:54:37 -0000 Hello, Length/content-warning: Please excuse my excessive grumbling, if that's what it is. Lots of this is background; material for discussion is at the bottom. I've edited it a good deal, but it's still wordy. Psychological-bent-warning: I need a vacation, and will take one soon. Also, for various reasons, business stats aren't looking good yet this year (or much of last). --- I'd like to hear opinions from those (and there are many, AFAICT) who use FreeBSD as a personal workstation, if you have time to respond. My computer is my workstation _and_ my little company (and family) server. Lately I've been (perhaps unjustly?) *feeling* I'd be just as well off to put this box in a corner to serve and purchase another MS exec's daughter an iPod. I've been an (outspoken?) FBSD advocate and desktop user for 3 years now, give or take. FBSD makes a great gen-purpose machine - stable OS, the ports collection is wonderful and FBSD's full-featuredness puts WinXP to shame when it comes to networking, troubleshooting, and standards-compliant web development (which is mostly what I do besides typical communication and research functions). I can do stuff in a heartbeat that coworkers who are MS-only users have to search for apps to do. And the only way to beat the license cost would be if the Project paid me ;-) But I'm having trouble keeping up with desktop ports. A couple of apps necessary for my "comfy GUI" (xfce4-panel is one, seamonkey has been another) are/have dump(ing/ed) core regularly. At least twice in the past year some element(s) of my environment was broken to the point where I decided to simply "make deinstall" in /usr/ports rather than try and fix the issues. Maybe I missed something in UPDATING , but I've not noted anything ex post facto. It could be that I simply get tired of sitting at the desk - maybe I need more management scripts (already have some that make "buildworld, etc." almost totally pain-free). Every once in a while (generally while upgrading ports/packages), I look over there and see our single Windows machine and think, "we never have to run `portupgrade` on that boxen... and I'm smart enough to avoid virii." My box does *everything* except provide workstation facilities to my family and co-workers. Company intranet and site development server, gateway/fw/nat/proxy, POP/IMAP and MTA, SAMBA, DNS, rsync for backups, print services via apsfilter over lpr, and, my desktop with XFCE4. I have set up scripts to handle rebuilding -STABLE, usually about monthly. I have the CD Burner we use; the only thing we need Win* for are the kid's games and school apps, as a "test box" for clients and web previewing in MSIE, and the fact that other family members (and one co-worker) all prefer "known territory". Needless to say, the FBSD box needs to be "up and running" almost all the time. It seems lately that maintaining the many ports providing all these services is taking away valuable time that should be spent *really working*. Perhaps I need a more reliable Internet link; packet radio occasionally (at least with my current provider) seems to experience sharp drops in performance, which makes tarball-fetching take a long time during the day, whilst the fact that there are so many ports installed means "portupgrade -arR --fetch-only" takes more than an overnight, also. I've had a co-worker with an extremely stable FBSD desktop; stable in the sense that, everything GUI-wise worked as expected for month after month after month. But the hardware was borken and wouldn't build world, so we never upgraded the OS or ports/packages, and apparently got a "good scale" on it the first time. If you're a desktop FBSD user: How do you keep up with ports? *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? *If you have trouble, do you accept it as a "cost" of using FreeBSD? How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? Any suggestions on what I might do differently? *Should I quit updating FBSD except for major point releases? *Should we upgrade the server-type ports and leave the desktop apps alone when we get a "stable" configuration there? *How dangerous is it to be using outdated ports (particularly the servers)? To sum up, I doubt I'll jettison FBSD from my desktop, but I wish to be assured I'm not wasting time doing what amounts to "busy work" to keep my 3rd-party apps going when I could sit at the next desk and probably worry less about that.... Thanks for your time, thoughts and strategies, Kevin Kinsey -- Nature makes boys and girls lovely to look upon so they can be tolerated until they acquire some sense. -- William Phelps From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 6 19:49:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CB216A401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:49:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.200.82]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E2C13C4B4 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:49:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (failure[67.190.235.215]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2007020619351601200i8eqse>; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:35:16 +0000 From: Josh Paetzel To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:35:00 -0600 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.5 References: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200702061335.00982.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:49:39 -0000 On Tuesday 06 February 2007 12:39, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Hello, > > Length/content-warning: Please excuse my excessive grumbling, if > that's what it is. Lots of this is background; material for > discussion is at the bottom. I've edited it a good deal, but it's > still wordy. > > Psychological-bent-warning: I need a vacation, and will take one > soon. Also, for various reasons, business stats aren't looking good > yet this year (or much of last). > --- > > I'd like to hear opinions from those (and there are many, AFAICT) > who use FreeBSD as a personal workstation, if you have time to > respond. > > My computer is my workstation _and_ my little company (and family) > server. Lately I've been (perhaps unjustly?) *feeling* I'd be just > as well off to put this box in a corner to serve and purchase > another MS exec's daughter an iPod. > > I've been an (outspoken?) FBSD advocate and desktop user for 3 > years now, give or take. FBSD makes a great gen-purpose machine - > stable OS, the ports collection is wonderful and FBSD's > full-featuredness puts WinXP to shame when it comes to networking, > troubleshooting, and standards-compliant web development (which is > mostly what I do besides typical communication and research > functions). I can do stuff in a heartbeat that coworkers who are > MS-only users have to search for apps to do. And the only way to > beat the license cost would be if the Project paid me ;-) > > But I'm having trouble keeping up with desktop ports. A couple of > apps necessary for my "comfy GUI" (xfce4-panel is one, seamonkey > has been another) are/have dump(ing/ed) core regularly. At least > twice in the past year some element(s) of my environment was broken > to the point where I decided to simply "make deinstall" in > /usr/ports rather than try and fix the issues. Maybe I missed > something in UPDATING , but I've not noted anything ex post > facto. It could be that I simply get tired of sitting at the desk > - maybe I need more management scripts (already have some that make > "buildworld, etc." almost totally pain-free). > > Every once in a while (generally while upgrading ports/packages), I > look over there and see our single Windows machine and think, "we > never have to run `portupgrade` on that boxen... and I'm smart > enough to avoid virii." > > My box does *everything* except provide workstation facilities to > my family and co-workers. Company intranet and site development > server, gateway/fw/nat/proxy, POP/IMAP and MTA, SAMBA, DNS, rsync > for backups, print services via apsfilter over lpr, and, my desktop > with XFCE4. I have set up scripts to handle rebuilding -STABLE, > usually about monthly. I have the CD Burner we use; the only thing > we need Win* for are the kid's games and school apps, as a "test > box" for clients and web previewing in MSIE, and the fact that > other family members (and one co-worker) all prefer "known > territory". > > Needless to say, the FBSD box needs to be "up and running" almost > all the time. It seems lately that maintaining the many ports > providing all these services is taking away valuable time that > should be spent *really working*. > > Perhaps I need a more reliable Internet link; packet radio > occasionally (at least with my current provider) seems to > experience sharp drops in performance, which makes tarball-fetching > take a long time during the day, whilst the fact that there are so > many ports installed means "portupgrade -arR --fetch-only" takes > more than an overnight, also. > > I've had a co-worker with an extremely stable FBSD desktop; stable > in the sense that, everything GUI-wise worked as expected for month > after month after month. But the hardware was borken and wouldn't > build world, so we never upgraded the OS or ports/packages, and > apparently got a "good scale" on it the first time. > > If you're a desktop FBSD user: > > How do you keep up with ports? > > *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? > > *If you have trouble, do you accept it as a "cost" of using > FreeBSD? > > How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? > > Any suggestions on what I might do differently? > > *Should I quit updating FBSD except for major point releases? > > *Should we upgrade the server-type ports and leave the desktop > apps alone when we get a "stable" configuration there? > > *How dangerous is it to be using outdated ports (particularly > the servers)? > > To sum up, I doubt I'll jettison FBSD from my desktop, but I wish > to be assured I'm not wasting time doing what amounts to "busy > work" to keep my 3rd-party apps going when I could sit at the next > desk and probably worry less about that.... > > Thanks for your time, thoughts and strategies, > > Kevin Kinsey I've been using FreeBSD as my desktop OS for over a decade now, and on servers a bit longer than that. I guess I've grown used to some of the quirks in the ports tree. I'm very very conservative about upgrading. Unless there is a bug that effects me directly, a security issue that effects me, or some sort of new feature I just can't live without I don't upgrade mission critical boxes. Which means all of my servers were running 4.11 until very recently. :) Sure, I don't mind playing around with the latest and greatest, I have a 6.2 box or two sitting here at home, but when it comes to things I need to get work done I don't generally mess with working configurations unless I have to. As far as upgrading ports go, I'm not a proponent of automated tools. When I upgrade something I pkg_delete it and any needed dependancies by hand and then install the new versions from ports. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 6 19:59:48 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663CD16A400 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:59:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fcash@ocis.net) Received: from smtp.sd73.bc.ca (smtp.sd73.bc.ca [142.24.13.140]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A42213C481 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:59:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fcash@ocis.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069E51A000B0E for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:28:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at smtp.sd73.bc.ca Received: from smtp.sd73.bc.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.sd73.bc.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id oWURf5ZTA4yx for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from coal (s10.sbo [192.168.0.10]) by smtp.sd73.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9EC1A000B23 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: Freddie Cash To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:28:38 -0800 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.5 References: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200702061128.38393.fcash@ocis.net> Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:59:49 -0000 On Tuesday 06 February 2007 10:39 am, Kevin Kinsey wrote: [snippage] > If you're a desktop FBSD user: I'm a laptop FreeBSD user. :) I did the initial install of everything using packages, and have only updated twice since then: once to get KDE 3.5.5, the other time to get Firefox 2.0.0.1. > How do you keep up with ports? > *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? > *If you have trouble, do you accept it as a "cost" of using > FreeBSD? > > How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? Very, very, very rarely. The only time I update a port on my work laptop is when a needed feature (mainly wireless or KDE related) is available in a new release, or a serious security issue that affects me is fixed. The rest of the time, I just use the software that is already installed. As much as possible, I use packages, but will compile things when needed (usually overnight). > Any suggestions on what I might do differently? > *Should I quit updating FBSD except for major point releases? Yes. Why update if there is no compelling business reason to update? > *Should we upgrade the server-type ports and leave the desktop apps > alone when we get a "stable" configuration there? Leave them both alone. Once you get a working configuration, don't touch it. Only updated it for security or needed-features updates. Don't update simply because a new version is available. If it ain't broke, don't try to break it. :) > *How dangerous is it to be using outdated ports (particularly the > servers)? Unless there is a security issue, there's nothing to worry about. -- Freddie Cash fcash@ocis.net From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 6 20:55:30 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3067316A402 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:55:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karol.kwiat@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.239]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D016013C481 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:55:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karol.kwiat@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 58so68wri for ; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 12:55:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type; b=nDmRY5A37vaOS5jBfpjeabGljFy63zppJZ25+cSe26TwVAYSa3r2rKLdsYXWclG5Sf/HuPPBCC7RU2SpIY8xoNDjYV2XaofENNKHcgCDiqsh52QPMDZ0zV/WTW5ZW2CMyNM439jRdswjerbB0ajzj2V9bV5zP0JLRD/1fFS5aWw= Received: by 10.90.96.20 with SMTP id t20mr11116364agb.1170793872824; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 12:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackacidevil.orchid.homeunix.org ( [83.27.43.203]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id o24sm12673492ugd.2007.02.06.12.31.10; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 12:31:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45C8E57C.6050001@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:30:52 +0100 From: Karol Kwiatkowski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070130) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Kinsey References: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> In-Reply-To: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 OpenPGP: id=06E09309; url=http://www.orchid.homeunix.org/carlos/gpg/0x06E09309.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig8C0462EA0AACAB3E9C35B1A4" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: karol.kwiat@gmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:55:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig8C0462EA0AACAB3E9C35B1A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin Kinsey wrote: > Hello, Hi, > [...] > My box does *everything* except provide workstation facilities to my > family and co-workers. Company intranet and site development server, > gateway/fw/nat/proxy, POP/IMAP and MTA, SAMBA, DNS, rsync for backups, > print services via apsfilter over lpr, and, my desktop with XFCE4. I > have set up scripts to handle rebuilding -STABLE, usually about monthly= =2E > I have the CD Burner we use; the only thing we need Win* for are the > kid's games and school apps, as a "test box" for clients and web > previewing in MSIE, and the fact that other family members (and one > co-worker) all prefer "known territory". >=20 > Needless to say, the FBSD box needs to be "up and running" almost all > the time. It seems lately that maintaining the many ports providing al= l > these services is taking away valuable time that should be spent *reall= y > working*. My setup, in somewhat similar scenario, includes an old PC* which serves all "critical" services: ppp/gateway/firewall, SMTP/POP3, DNS (cache), NTP, WWW, Samba. It is running RELEASE branch (6.2 atm). As for updating - I'm using freebsd-update whenever I can. Unfortunately, on this one I can't (I need ALTQ amongst other things) so I set up a jail on my workstation (more memory, much faster) to build kernel/world. Prepared files go over LAN through sshd - a script and public key authorization - and get installed with another script. For ports I use similar technique - packages are build on the workstation in a jail, transfered to "server" and 'portupgrade -afPP' takes care of the rest. Again, in general I would use packages from ftp sites, I'm compiling them only because I need some special options. That way I'm more flexible with my desktop - I can turn it off or "brake" by playing with kernel ;) > Perhaps I need a more reliable Internet link; packet radio occasionally= > (at least with my current provider) seems to experience sharp drops in > performance, which makes tarball-fetching take a long time during the > day, whilst the fact that there are so many ports installed means > "portupgrade -arR --fetch-only" takes more than an overnight, also. I guess fetching them overnight is the best option. > If you're a desktop FBSD user: >=20 > How do you keep up with ports? First let me say my desktop, differently then in your scenario, is only for me. There are times when I know I can't afford any (possible) delay, but generally I stay up-to-date. I use ports, the only exception is OpenOffice.org. The procedure is: - run script update-ports.sh - it used to use cvsup, now portsnap; - check UPDATING (oh yeah ;) - upgrade via 'portupgrade -rp portname' - I've got some big ones (like kdelibs) on hold, so I can choose when I'd like to do them; With 'nice +20' it's perfectly normal to work while upgrading (seamonkey is compiling as I write). > *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? I had some problems at the beginning, when I was to smart to do better :) I was doing strange things like messing with compilation flags, upgrading only some of the libraries (used by other ports), etc. I learned my lesson and haven't got any troubles for few years now at all (well, there was one when gnome went to LOCALBASE, but that doesn't happen too often). > *If you have trouble, do you accept it as a "cost" of using FreeBSD?= It was frustrating a few times but there was only me to blame. I learned how to use portupgrade and be carefull to details (like "will X brake if I upgrade Y"). > How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? Few (1-3) times a week. > Any suggestions on what I might do differently? > > *Should I quit updating FBSD except for major point releases? I think that would be a good idea. I use STABLE on _my_ desktop where I can play with it, but RELEASE otherwise. If I wouldn't have that small PC I mentioned before I would definitely went with RELEASE with security updates. > *Should we upgrade the server-type ports and leave the desktop apps > alone when we get a "stable" configuration there? All services facing the Internet should be treated carefully. As for others - I guess that depends but I wouldn't browse Internet with an outdated browser, for example. > *How dangerous is it to be using outdated ports (particularly the > servers)? On the Internet - pretty dangerous in general (robots will find you eventually). On LAN probability is much smaller, but remember some "bad" software may get installed on internal Windows machines and start attack from there. > To sum up, I doubt I'll jettison FBSD from my desktop, but I wish to be= > assured I'm not wasting time doing what amounts to "busy work" to keep > my 3rd-party apps going when I could sit at the next desk and probably > worry less about that.... >=20 > Thanks for your time, thoughts and strategies, >=20 > Kevin Kinsey You're welcome. To sum it up - in your situation I think I would go with RELEASE plus security updates for system and packages from ftp sites. This setup should give you a "stable" base to work with. Best regards, Karol * Celeron 400Mhz, 96MB RAM, 20GB HDD with few network cards and practically nothing else (no monitor, no keyboard, etc.) --=20 Karol Kwiatkowski OpenPGP 0x06E09309 --------------enig8C0462EA0AACAB3E9C35B1A4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFyOWEezeoPAwGIYsRCLiuAJ9rZM5GC3qaW8gbRbBidH3t8MgbBgCgnKw4 wc7iR10O4o3RceaCmfuUPUU= =uCc/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig8C0462EA0AACAB3E9C35B1A4-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 6 21:10:23 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830B616A403 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:10:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karol.kwiat@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.175]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D4B13C478 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:10:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karol.kwiat@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so3951uge for ; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:10:21 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type; b=BcKHfdhtvQsLs47qOCBmwWkBdv89giBI8Re9JiEsSjtaoJBvHBLfDy2O2va3uVgO8aazgrsOjKyx6oNbtWDc62Zv2Nz0s5gSoWhO5Zd3IntNwy2+f1szH8P3UqdPJuHbEE+QBrcU8vepqADy0L/86xzyr0c4v3pzxBALNjPMr80= Received: by 10.67.22.2 with SMTP id z2mr9940192ugi.1170796221719; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackacidevil.orchid.homeunix.org ( [83.27.43.203]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id i39sm31857ugd.2007.02.06.13.10.20; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:10:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45C8EEBA.9080605@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:10:18 +0100 From: Karol Kwiatkowski User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (X11/20070130) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Kinsey References: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> <45C8E57C.6050001@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45C8E57C.6050001@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 OpenPGP: id=06E09309; url=http://www.orchid.homeunix.org/carlos/gpg/0x06E09309.asc Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigE42C5C2860E998F6D760C299" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: karol.kwiat@gmail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:10:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigE42C5C2860E998F6D760C299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Karol Kwiatkowski wrote: > Kevin Kinsey wrote: >> How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? >=20 > Few (1-3) times a week. A small correction - few times a week I update ports _tree_. I decide later which installed ports are to be upgraded. I upgrade instantly: - if this upgrade is absolutely necessary (security fixes are, for examp= le) - if the port in question is commonly used by me (say browser, email client, etc.) - any libraries on which ports being upgraded depends The big ones (say kdelibs) are upgraded only if necessary, the rest "as it happens" but usually it doesn't take long. Cheers, Karol --=20 Karol Kwiatkowski OpenPGP 0x06E09309 --------------enigE42C5C2860E998F6D760C299 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFyO66ezeoPAwGIYsRCFLrAKCsiB2B1WxLFZ86UY2aH07Br1uZKQCfYlAE /eZbB4gjry3jVb01OXUiHt4= =nIGs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigE42C5C2860E998F6D760C299-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 6 21:49:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E9F16A400 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:49:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0411F13C441 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:49:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (icare.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.75]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.13.7/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id l16L9AvV019957 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:09:13 +0100 (CET) X-Ids: 168 Received: from asmodee.lpthe.jussieu.fr (asmodee.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.34]) by parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720B960BC6 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:07:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by asmodee.lpthe.jussieu.fr (Postfix, from userid 2005) id 173164769; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:09:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:09:07 +0100 From: Michel TALON To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20070206210906.GA6697@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.168]); Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:09:13 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.5/2529/Tue Feb 6 20:25:02 2007 on shiva.jussieu.fr X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Miltered: at shiva.jussieu.fr with ID 45C8EE76.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http://j-chkmail.ensmp.fr)! Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:49:08 -0000 > I'm a laptop FreeBSD user. :) I did the initial install of everything > using packages, and have only updated twice since then: once to get KDE > 3.5.5, the other time to get Firefox 2.0.0.1. May i refer you to the recent thread "pkgupgrade" on cubfm which is precisely concerned with a tentative solution to the problem you are discussing? It begins at: http://groups.google.fr/group/comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc/msg/c83a68571ceb7ee1?hl=fr& -- Michel TALON From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 7 01:03:15 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251B716A405 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 01:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from olmec.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [207.5.141.146]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC11513C48E for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 01:03:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from olmec.nighttide.net (darren@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olmec.nighttide.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l170mSPL089498; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:48:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by olmec.nighttide.net (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l170mSiL089495; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:48:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) X-Authentication-Warning: olmec.nighttide.net: darren owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:48:28 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: Kevin Kinsey In-Reply-To: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> Message-ID: <20070206192957.P89338@olmec> References: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 01:03:15 -0000 On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Kevin Kinsey wrote: > How do you keep up with ports? You don't have to keep up with them. Do you upgrade every application you have on your windows box every other thing? If you decide to keep current on ports do it frequently rather then waiting for months. Do not install gnome. > *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? The only time I've had significant issues is when full gnome upgrades appear - I could go on for pages about the pain these cause. Thanks to the recent update I've removed it from my systems and will not be reinstalling it. Ports that require pieces of it are fine but not gnome itself. (I'm content with that decission and I don't have any suggestions for fixing it other then a reminder of POLA as it applies to FreeBSD and the observation that any port that requires the rebuilding of a major percentage of installed ports is perhaps not considering the full ramifications of the decisions being made). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 7 06:12:17 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B699416A400 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jimmiejaz@gmail.com) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528E113C442 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:12:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jimmiejaz@gmail.com) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id o2so94510uge for ; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:12:16 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:mime-version:content-type; b=XETnFItY1hmfLsGvQIgiWe2Z3bAQteiW0HgZmW5OSCBfjFzbtpvxNG8hBluI9U6EPnZji4XsG4MGw9m0h+orSwA5PHRQmGtf91i0rJYyldal/12ypNo/ih48nqQalA0C3MjMuAAqt/F4WF4zONdwQWOaAU/5uROnS9X6DAsRCb4= Received: by 10.78.165.16 with SMTP id n16mr136293hue.1170800583549; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.10.15 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 14:23:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <7e148fb90702061423yfe9c02and915206c04dcd5f0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:23:03 -0500 From: JJ To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: RE: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:12:17 -0000 Hello Kevin (and other desktop users) :If you're a desktop FBSD user: : :How do you keep up with ports? I've been using FreeBSD as my main desktop since 4.0. While having morning coffee, reading the news, I browse the mailing list, http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/current/ , paying attention to ports@ ports-bugs@ and questions@. Daily, I check portaudit -Fa to see if there's any security issues. About once a week I'll cvsup just to keep my tree sync'd with the main, then I check with UPDATING, and run this script in the ports that have an update availible, #!/bin/sh # Much love Min1ster on CJ's for the scripting! # Replace -depends- with -run- if you wish to check it's run depends. # for i in `make pretty-print-build-depends-list | awk -F\" '{print $2 }'` do hasit=`pkg_info -E $i` if [ -z $hasit ]; then echo "$i is not installed" else : fi done Then I decide if A) there's an issue that needs fixing, and B) if a new feature I need is there. If it's security related, I update. If there's nothing pressing, I put off updating for a day or two to read the mailing lists, to see if there's any reports of issues. : : *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? A few times, but that's usually because A) I didn't read UPDATING closely enough, B) rushed into a version bump, C) did something stupid. : : *If you have trouble, do you accept it as a "cost" of using FreeBSD? Trouble updating something is always a "cost", I've ruined WindowsXP with SP2 installs, that I counted as the "cost" of updating. To me, software, like people, aren't perfect, and at times there will be mistakes. : :How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? On my main workstation, when I need a new feature/security patch. On my test machine, (quad boot, winXP, FBSD, Debian ETCH, and win98) if there's an update, I apply it, but that machine gets a fresh install every few weeks/months. : :Any suggestions on what I might do differently? : : *Should I quit updating FBSD except for major point releases? : : *Should we upgrade the server-type ports and leave the desktop apps :alone when we get a "stable" configuration there? : : *How dangerous is it to be using outdated ports (particularly the :servers)? As long as there's no known security issues, there's no problems what-so-ever. Seems to me, -RELEASE and pkg's would be your best bet, along with avoiding the "urge" to update whenever there's a new version, unless it's needed. Hope this helps, Jimmie From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 9 18:20:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DF616A401 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:20:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD8313C467 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (rahsrq@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l19IKbR4064310; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:20:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l19IKawI064305; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:20:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:20:36 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200702091820.l19IKawI064305@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kdk@daleco.biz In-Reply-To: <45C8CB7B.5090200@daleco.biz> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:20:42 +0100 (CET) Cc: Subject: Re: Productivity with FBSD, or: "portupgrade" vs. virus scans.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kdk@daleco.biz List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:20:53 -0000 Kevin Kinsey wrote: > [...] NB: I'm using FreeBSD for more than 10 years, and I've done hundreds of FreeBSD installations over the years, both privately and for my job. When portupgrade appeared (about 5 years ago, I think), I tried it for a while, hoping it would make things easier. It didn't. In fact, more than once it broke, somtimes subtly, sometimes horribly. I have to admit that I also don't like Ruby that much. So I stopped using portupgrade privately, and I also try to avoid it in my job, unless customers or coworkers insist on using it on particular machines. > If you're a desktop FBSD user: > > How do you keep up with ports? Like I've always done before portupgrade existed. Note that I'm a conservative update: I never update just because a new version exists ("never change a running system"). I only update if there is a _good_ reason to do so, such as security issues, critical bug fixes, or features that I need. I don't trust portupgrade or any other automatic tool to decide correctly for me which ports should be updated and which ports should not be touched. Yes, I'm aware that's configurable with portup- grade, but that doesn't solve the problem. > *Do you have (or have you, at some time, had) much trouble? Yes, I had. During the time I used portupgrade. :-) > *If you have trouble, do you accept it as a "cost" of using FreeBSD? No. Only Windows users have to accept what they have, because they have no choice. But we have an open-source system, so if something troubles us, we can improve it. If one tool doesn't float your boat, use a different one. if you can't find one, create your own. > How often do you upgrade your ports/packages? See above. There are no fixed time intervals for updates. I watch the output of portaudit for security issues, and if there are some, I update the affected ports. I also update when I need a bug fix or feature. Watching the cvs commits or the ports mailing list or the freshports web site can be useful. > Any suggestions on what I might do differently? > > *Should I quit updating FBSD except for major point releases? There's no easy answer. It depends on your requirements. I can tell you what I think is right for me, but that's not necessarily the right thing for you. You need to decide for yourself. > *Should we upgrade the server-type ports and leave the desktop apps > alone when we get a "stable" configuration there? I really can't give generic advice there. > *How dangerous is it to be using outdated ports (particularly the > servers)? If there are no security issues, it's not dangerous at all. To be informed about security issues, I recommend that you install the "portaudit" port. Then you will get security warnings in your nightly cron mail if there are any issues with your installed ports. For my convenience I wrote a few small shell scripts. They work on a stock FreeBSD base system and don't require Ruby or anything else. The first one runs via cron job every night and updates /usr/ports with cvsup, provided that there are no "work" directories. If there are any "work" directories, the script doesn't touch anything and instead sends me an e-mail to tell me about it, so I can clean up if necessary. The second script updates a single port (also installs any dependencies if necessary), checks for shared libraries and saves them if necessary, and it preserves the "required_by" information of the ports, if any. It's conservative in that it does not touch anything that doesn't have to be touched. Actually I wrote the scripts for myself only and didn't plan to officially release them to the public, but here they are nevertheless. Maybe they're useful to somebody. http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/scripts/ports-check-update http://www.secnetix.de/~olli/scripts/portsup Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, USt-Id: DE204219783 Any opinions expressed in this message are personal to the author and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix GmbH & Co KG in any way. FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead." -- RFC 1925