From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 17 06:24:21 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31EEF16A46B for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 06:24:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from artifact.one@googlemail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.225]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA7013C455 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 06:24:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from artifact.one@googlemail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h28so1063224wxd for ; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:24:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=gkEfBSe0Gi5oURjlSbHIgIOx4CWiuaKpmhylPDt8IgU31fDejkrhEpcsU0+eJUmpMZBLskeF99b7Ur+9d7eJy4uB25Xxfa/DA/udm7KctgDacDPW88eEes+s0z6piHsP8FwGGHro6hfMwo4CyAx4dCsUzGK8A/HPfCIR1vASBz8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MXcVdvOETwqlfiqL9b0SNDj0t+Ue7V3eyTxT0R22QuRwWz4ZC0fJmSvPF+ezN3RacV4YBHz+vPDsPJl7OE8Ctn/48lnpcYVJKcUw6jFssqLwTNcgZATc7etjt5azjzLtbWcXz5AJxnevxpHWEpuos496lq0EnZ+vrM10v5Hiitc= Received: by 10.90.79.6 with SMTP id c6mr3315153agb.1182059890637; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.102.14 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8e96a0b90706162258nfc1bc70gba2fd4ad5d6fd8b6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 06:58:10 +0100 From: "mal content" To: "Garrett Cooper" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Dieter , chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20070616213006.GA39721@freebie.xs4all.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200706161733.RAA14937@sopwith.solgatos.com> <20070616191714.GA38504@freebie.xs4all.nl> <46745340.6090702@u.washington.edu> <20070616213006.GA39721@freebie.xs4all.nl> Cc: Subject: Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 06:24:21 -0000 What does this program do? #include int main(void) { printf("%u\n", 0x2a); return 0; } Docs are more important than drivers. Please ask for docs. MC From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 17 15:10:30 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D49016A469 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:10:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (cenn.mc.mpls.visi.com [208.42.156.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B2513C4B7 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:10:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from josh@tcbug.org) Received: from mail.tcbug.org (mail.tcbug.org [208.42.70.163]) by cenn-smtp.mc.mpls.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38F8818F; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:42:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (unknown [192.168.2.1]) by mail.tcbug.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39ECC341C00; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:44:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Josh Paetzel To: "mal content" Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:42:19 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <200706161733.RAA14937@sopwith.solgatos.com> <20070616213006.GA39721@freebie.xs4all.nl> <8e96a0b90706162258nfc1bc70gba2fd4ad5d6fd8b6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8e96a0b90706162258nfc1bc70gba2fd4ad5d6fd8b6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200706170942.19310.josh@tcbug.org> Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:10:30 -0000 On Sunday 17 June 2007, you wrote: > What does this program do? > > #include > > int main(void) > { > printf("%u\n", 0x2a); > return 0; > } > > Docs are more important than drivers. Please ask for > docs. > > MC Displays the answer to the question of life the universe and everything. As is all to common, it's clear what the code *does*, what is not quite as obvious is why is it being done. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jun 17 18:02:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B1716A468 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:02:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1182965610.448088@mired.org) Received: from mired.org (vpn.mired.org [66.92.153.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 63C7413C480 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:02:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mwm-dated-1182965610.448088@mired.org) Received: (qmail 18346 invoked by uid 1001); 17 Jun 2007 17:33:30 -0000 Received: by bhuda.mired.org (tmda-sendmail, from uid 1001); Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:33:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18037.28777.868098.599922@bhuda.mired.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 13:33:29 -0400 To: "mal content" In-Reply-To: <8e96a0b90706162258nfc1bc70gba2fd4ad5d6fd8b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <200706161733.RAA14937@sopwith.solgatos.com> <20070616191714.GA38504@freebie.xs4all.nl> <46745340.6090702@u.washington.edu> <20070616213006.GA39721@freebie.xs4all.nl> <8e96a0b90706162258nfc1bc70gba2fd4ad5d6fd8b6@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.3.1 X-Primary-Address: mwm@mired.org X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`; h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.11 (Ladyburn) From: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Garrett Cooper , chat@freebsd.org, Dieter Subject: Re: Fwd: AMD deciding _now_ what to do about Linux X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:02:08 -0000 In <8e96a0b90706162258nfc1bc70gba2fd4ad5d6fd8b6@mail.gmail.com>, mal content typed: > Docs are more important than drivers. Please ask for > docs. Yes. Drivers get us drivers for the platforms they decide to support, which will pretty much kill development on the open source drivers (check out the open source NVidia and ATI drivers). Docs get us the ability to have drivers for platforms they may not want to support. http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 19 16:10:53 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59EA16A46B for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:10:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infofarmer@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.239]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826ED13C448 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:10:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infofarmer@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 14so1547096nzn for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:10:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=px86HrPbJceshzW4s5v3Z4vqBfKi3riR4fAJGfXUyXnnA/90MaPOaCcTE9o/oBThZrJOJRs+1fH+/zjz/Z3rxhdZ+9FB6kZYO2D4mVjy91IL83UU6N6kGYTNyOPl8A3iTAcJ9uRXHoBtKTMHK46zhgHmVsxCr1noPt+AWkay9TA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OmWi4gejdyTm65gXNSCs6S7KnM9AUoA4C0jit8aoHSIgJ//cYt3bK+hs/6kUlm6fflB7R/RO3+VmhInzUGoDuq/inFgnUVUUF1Rkp6g6dl9Qa+lj22xUAGan4nyJZ9Tw1clFvexgxZjxeJyXGd9VTNiPblp2KX/6zd4TaAlwfMA= Received: by 10.143.167.4 with SMTP id u4mr399890wfo.1182269451888; Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.194.5 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:10:51 +0400 From: "Andrew Pantyukhin" Sender: infofarmer@gmail.com To: "deeptech71@gmail.com" In-Reply-To: <4656F090.1080603@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <46543647.7010202@gmail.com> <86wsyy8kv7.fsf@dwp.des.no> <200705250831.30329.doconnor@gsoft.com.au> <4656F090.1080603@gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7fbf245b31da7189 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3D @ radeon & xorg 7.2 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:10:54 -0000 On 5/25/07, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > Andrew Pantyukhin wrote: > > On 5/25/07, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >> On Thursday 24 May 2007 23:02, Andrew Pantyukhin wrote: > >> > > The issue is that the R300 has been supported for a long time, > >> > > while until recently the R400 was not. > >> > > >> > Yes, I'm lucky to have 9550 and 1100 - both of which are > >> > not supported by any version of Xorg :-( > >> > >> If you're running i386 you could try this one -> > >> http://www.fglrx-freebsd.com/index.php > > > > Oh, I meant Xorg doesn't support 3D on my cards. 2D works > > quite fine. And I do have amd64. > > 2D works for me too. 3D, i can just wait for the next FBSD release and see. Good news (for me) :) I got a new 9600XT and moved my old 9550 to another PC. Now both of them support OpenGL. 9600XT is in a 7.x/i386 box with all the latest ports. Tried running ut2004 in 1680x1050x32 - and it works. Couldn't test it much because of weird multiscreen configuration. 9550 works in a 7.x/amd64 box, also with all the fresh ports. Both cards work in AGP mode 8 and fast writing enabled. Glxgears fps is low (2000-3000), but I'm not sure it's not a config issue. /me starts working on OpenGL ports :-) Cheers! From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 20 15:31:19 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE2E16A421 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:31:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.177]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EE313C448 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:31:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a29so444390pyi for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=jV+zqkHNcRTO8lFNZiB+xf0PUWgDxFCzgcXVyacKIJa9niVbsC+PUbbc/RiZTNfstR/XQT6NVpuFfTnSY7MMQu8Z4uY8dVYsmMBXfh+qpHBBJPhHspI9PRPrKLwrVzecyyzZ00xqXCScmSxWt39bLsjwnGqFOlljPPqSau9tUxk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=DAHfeLOW4lf7nWYxn4HZp2U4XMRrXTCPQpFh2LuFnswuf1OtGUHw7Trh9TWgmh6Hp6yYMJTQOVcqv/NcIk9UFYED7Z2nkIEoDpgziWlUYBCtdsDyeXC5mFA1ZPzqyGMwyGIChJjoT/SYUQHSogSSD+dD5krxlnZmWtPLuxjMzJ0= Received: by 10.35.83.20 with SMTP id k20mr1357026pyl.1182353478006; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.103.17 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <13413b8f0706200831x2b37f359y558af4e581eaf0d5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:31:17 +0200 From: "Gueven Bay" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Menhir a distro for FreeBSD plus three other free operating systems. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:31:19 -0000 Dear FreeBSD community, With this post I started the work on Menhir. Menhir is a source based distribution of 4 free operating systems: Slackware, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenSolaris. Menhir will distribute the sources of: FreeBSD Release 6.1 (base system) Slackware 11.0 (all packages which are required for "starting with pkgsrc) NetBSD Release 3.1 (base system) OpenSolaris build 65 + two tar balls of closed binaries which are required. + pkgsrc 2007Q1 The base systems are _forever_ "frozen" . Only bug fixing and security updates will be included in the source files. Only the pkgsrc tree is a "moving" part for actual and fresh userland. I want to distribute these 4 operating systems side by side for following reasons: 1) Collaboration: I want to make Menhir the meeting point of the users and developers from all the four operating systems. They should chat, develop and test together their systems for interoperability, security, stability and so on. With this I want to get rid of the ever ongoing of rivalry between the users and developers of the (free) Unix-like operating systems. 2) Teaching: I want to make Menhir a distribution for training the administration and development skills for all the four operating systems. You know that people are driving heterogeneous systems at their workplace and also in some cases at home. I also don't have to explain to you that heterogeneous systems are more stable and secure. With Menhir you will get the basis for building up skills for such a multi-operating system environment. I witness that if today someone learns about some Unix-like operating system then it is mostly Linux. I want to change that with Menhir. I want to bring the broad knowledge about all four operating systems to the users. 3) Experimenting: With Menhir you can start your own experiments (system building and also development) without fear because the stable base systems give you a point to where you can return if your experiments were not successful. With this I want to encourage users to build their systems not only with Linux but also with FreeBSD or NetBSD or OpenSolaris using the best combination for the appropriate "use-case". The principles of Menhir are: I) Strength : You, as a user, get four distributions with one medium. You, as a user, get one united documentation for every system. You get a really stable system as the base system will forever be constant. II) Vigour : You get a maximum flexible system. From the kernel up to the graphical userland you can choose every part of your system. As the base system is constant the userland will be always developing forward. This is dynamics to the max. III) Security : As the base system will be constant, after training yourself or your employees your skills never get old. As the base system will be constant, the testing and bug fixing will make the most possible stable system. With the overall quality management of the constant base system the most possible secure interaction between every operating system will be ensured. IV) Knowledge : This is the essence for using a computer system for maximum efficiency in private life and and business alike. With the concentrated, united documentation you get knowledge about all operating systems for deployment, administration and use. V) Freedom : Every included operating system is free. You are free to use them as you want. You are free to build upon them as you want. Today, I am building up the site for Menhir. Soon I will post you the address. But in the meantime every (constructive or non-constructive) comment is welcome. best regards Gueven Bay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 20 15:34:43 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F22716A400 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:34:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.183]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C527F13C45A for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:34:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a29so446582pyi for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:34:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=fHN8IJ4xkY8kM8buBXwaOinX5QHkibmlgLjZNQAicSsqACmzRNQokbHKj/64MnFXdqRMkz64dchlyh+t92x9KMdWN40SdNxwiDELt0l4gBlY2IN9EPAs1cG1B/2tElpcy8Vvhq+IwD+W/vi5mEN2chvGxrLeCTunZJjCye2OSnI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=MmyXeFZjsp89DGOKUELC/9NiaNfmvZUjtWC5u/0J30KcO02EWHb8BlWUojQOS5vvq9J7c07f28GnWWRq/kpaC/meG/WIZwlJEsZWoBD00RaW7fgsqVohpXRz1+VikAtWiz8WWnpKbNHtDc+5XZm3Px1bZ8npbWzaRpSlqwrh3Fg= Received: by 10.35.128.1 with SMTP id f1mr1264953pyn.1182352043713; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.103.17 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <13413b8f0706200807u1a508c62x4de508a0e48a6e3d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 17:07:23 +0200 From: "Gueven Bay" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Menhir a distro for FreeBSD plus three other free operating systems. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:34:43 -0000 Dear FreeBSD community, With this post I started the work on Menhir. Menhir is a source based distribution of 4 free operating systems: Slackware, FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenSolaris. Menhir will distribute the sources of: FreeBSD Release 6.1 (base system) Slackware 11.0 (all packages which are required for "starting with pkgsrc) NetBSD Release 3.1 (base system) OpenSolaris build 65 + two tar balls of closed binaries which are required. + pkgsrc 2007Q1 The base systems are _forever_ "frozen" . Only bug fixing and security updates will be included in the source files. Only the pkgsrc tree is a "moving" part for actual and fresh userland. I want to distribute these 4 operating systems side by side for following reasons: 1) Collaboration: I want to make Menhir the meeting point of the users and developers from all the four operating systems. They should chat, develop and test together their systems for interoperability, security, stability and so on. With this I want to get rid of the ever ongoing of rivalry between the users and developers of the (free) Unix-like operating systems. 2) Teaching: I want to make Menhir a distribution for training the administration and development skills for all the four operating systems. You know that people are driving heterogeneous systems at their workplace and also in some cases at home. I also don't have to explain to you that heterogeneous systems are more stable and secure. With Menhir you will get the basis for building up skills for such a multi-operating system environment. I witness that if today someone learns about some Unix-like operating system then it is mostly Linux. I want to change that with Menhir. I want to bring the broad knowledge about all four operating systems to the users. 3) Experimenting: With Menhir you can start your own experiments (system building and also development) without fear because the stable base systems give you a point to where you can return if your experiments were not successful. With this I want to encourage users to build their systems not only with Linux but also with FreeBSD or NetBSD or OpenSolaris using the best combination for the appropriate "use-case". The principles of Menhir are: I) Strength : You, as a user, get four distributions with one medium. You, as a user, get one united documentation for every system. You get a really stable system as the base system will forever be constant. II) Vigour : You get a maximum flexible system. From the kernel up to the graphical userland you can choose every part of your system. As the base system is constant the userland will be always developing forward. This is dynamics to the max. III) Security : As the base system will be constant, after training yourself or your employees your skills never get old. As the base system will be constant, the testing and bug fixing will make the most possible stable system. With the overall quality management of the constant base system the most possible secure interaction between every operating system will be ensured. IV) Knowledge : This is the essence for using a computer system for maximum efficiency in private life and and business alike. With the concentrated, united documentation you get knowledge about all operating systems for deployment, administration and use. V) Freedom : Every included operating system is free. You are free to use them as you want. You are free to build upon them as you want. Today, I am building up the site for Menhir. Soon I will post you the address. But in the meantime every (constructive or non-constructive) comment is welcome. best regards Gueven Bay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 20 19:56:26 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED8C16A421 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikolaj.thygesen@diamondbox.dk) Received: from csmtp1.b-one.net (csmtp.b-one.net [195.47.247.21]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167CA13C457 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikolaj.thygesen@diamondbox.dk) Received: from [62.79.244.9] (unknown [62.79.244.9]) by csmtp1.b-one.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CA019116073 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:36:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Nikolaj Thygesen To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20070616213006.GA39721@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <200706161733.RAA14937@sopwith.solgatos.com> <20070616191714.GA38504@freebie.xs4all.nl> <46745340.6090702@u.washington.edu> <20070616213006.GA39721@freebie.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: diamondbox.dk Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:37:28 +0200 Message-Id: <1182368248.1016.11.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.10.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: Installing libstdc++.so.6 package w/out g++41 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:56:26 -0000 Hi list, Suppose you wanted to distribute a binary port compiled with gcc41 and wanted to spare people of building the entire gcc41 port just to get "libstdc++.so.6" (and possibly a few others like libm and libc). I'm not familiar with Tinderbox or the likes and know only how to depend on regular ports. Is this at all doable?? I guess including the libs along with the port should work, but that doesn't seem right. br - Nikolaj From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 21 06:38:02 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CED16A469 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 06:38:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reedmedia.net (103.sub-75-216-116.myvzw.com [75.216.116.103]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391D413C487 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 06:38:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by u.reedmedia.net with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1I12OR-0003At-00; Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:46:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 10:46:50 -0500 (CDT) From: reed To: Gueven Bay In-Reply-To: <13413b8f0706200831x2b37f359y558af4e581eaf0d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <13413b8f0706200831x2b37f359y558af4e581eaf0d5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Menhir a distro for FreeBSD plus three other free operating systems. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 06:38:02 -0000 On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Gueven Bay wrote: > Menhir will distribute the sources of: > FreeBSD Release 6.1 (base system) Will you be using pkgsrc with FreeBSD also? (On FreeBSD, will pkgsrc be used with or instead of FreeBSD ports?) > Slackware 11.0 (all packages which are required for "starting with pkgsrc) > NetBSD Release 3.1 (base system) > OpenSolaris build 65 + two tar balls of closed binaries which are required. > + > pkgsrc 2007Q1 > > The base systems are _forever_ "frozen" . Only bug fixing and security > updates will be > included in the source files. Only the pkgsrc tree is a "moving" part for > actual and fresh userland. Jeremy C. Reed From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 21 12:56:36 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE66D16A400; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:56:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3042D13C44B; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:56:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (wnspsl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5LCXuNi082846; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:34:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l5LCXuYv082845; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:33:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:33:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-drivers@FreeBSD.ORG, mjalvarez@fastmail.fm, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1182418101.6802.1196302545@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-drivers User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:34:02 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mjalvarez@fastmail.fm List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 12:56:36 -0000 Mark Jayson Alvarez wrote: > Good day! I could have sent this to questions@freebsd.org but I know > it will get treated as irrelevant topic as well. Just trying my luck > here though. Actually this is most appropriate on the "chat" list. I've redirected replies there. > I have a cousin who's taking up a programming course. He doesn't have > background with programming nor an in depth understanding of how the > computer works. I tried explaining him that it all started with > abacus, and that people wanted to use something that could make their > arithmetic life easier and that Charles Babbage tried automating this > manual calculator with his steam engine or some sort... and that... Actually Charles Babbage designed a complex mechanical computing machine (with lots of gearwheels etc.), but it only ever existed on paper. Only small parts of it have actually been built, but never the whole thing, because it was too complex. It would work in theory, though. :-) > This is how my programming teacher explains how a program gets > executed. First you compile it into a machine readable code, then > the operating system writes it in the memory, and finally the CPU > fetches it and it finally gets toasted by the electricity flowing on > the CPU's surface. It doesn't make things clearer though.:-( That's pretty close to the truth, actually. > I really don't get it. Can you in a very simple sentence explain to > me how and where a software program I'm afraid the interactions between memory, processor (CPU) and software is a complex thing which cannot be explained in a single simple sentence. I'll try to explain a bit ... A processor is able to execute instructions which are called "machine code". Basically it's a sequence of bytes stored in memory (RAM). The processor fetches byte after byte from memory and executes the commands that they represent. Such commands include: "load a number from memory into a processor register", or "add these two processor registers and store the result in memory", or "check whether this value is zero, and if it is, then jump to a specified address in memory instead of continuing with the following instruction". It's possible to have loops, subroutines, interrupt routines and other things, but the details aren't important in order to get a basic understanding. Of course, most programmers don't write that machine code directly. It's efficient for the processor to execute, but it's inconvenient for a human programmer to write. A programmer usually writes programs in a higher-level language, such as C. Then a tool called compiler is used to convert that "source code" into "machine code" that can be executed by the processor. The result is an executable file stored on disk (also called a "binary"). When a binary is about to be executed, the operating system (such as FreeBSD) loads it from disk into RAM where its byte stream can be executed by the processor. Of course in reality it's more complicated, but the above are the very basic and low-level things that happen. Device drivers are somewhat different. They're normal binaries, too (usually compiled from source code, too), but they're loaded once when the operating system boots the computer, or once when the appropriate kernel module is loaded. Many device drivers are interrupt- driven. When an external event occurs, such as a packet arriving on a network interface, or the user pressing a key on the keyboard, the hardware device signals an interrupt to the processor (basically a connector pin on the processor is set from "low" to "high", i.e. from 0 V to 5 V or similar). The processor stops whatever it is doing right now, fetches the address of an "interrupt handler routine" from memory, and jumps to that address (i.e. starts executing instructions from that address). That handler is usually installed in memory by the operating system. The code checks which device caused the interrupt, and then executes the appropriate routine in the corresponding device driver. When it's finished, a "return" instruction is executed, which causes the processor to resume whatever it was doing before the interrupt occured. > Does it have anything to do with the bios? The BIOS is also simply a piece of software, stored in a chip on the mainboard. It initializes the hard- ware right after the machine is switched on, and arranges for the operating system to be booted from the disk (or from other kind of media if supported). After the operating system takes control of the box, the BIOS is not used anymore at all. (There are certain exceptions, but lets forget about them for now.) Booting is usually a multi-stage process, i.e. first the BIOS loads a tiny boot loader from the first sector of the disk (the MBR == master boot record), then the code contained in the MBR loads the operating system's first stage boot loader and so on. All of those stages still use BIOS routines to access the disk. The last stage (in FreeBSD that's /boot/loader) loads the actual OS, i.e. the kernel and modules that are required to boot the OS. The kernel has its own device drivers for disks and other media, so it doesn't use the BIOS anymore. > I told my cousin, that someday he will be a real programmer and that > even if he will be dealing only with java, html, animation and all > sorts of high level programming stuffs, It should be pointed out that HTML is not a programming language. ;-) > in the spirit of open source (and freebsd of course), it's better > that he knows exactly how a program interacts with the physical > computer. Well ... It depends. As a high-level programmer, it is good to know how machine code works and how the compiler generates it, because it also enables you to write more efficient programs. That's especially true for kernel source and device drivers. On the other hand, both processors and compilers become more and more complex and advanced, and newly designed higher-level languages (such as Python) increase the "distance" between machine code and the source code that people write, so there is less relationship. Therefore I think that nowadays it is more important to learn software design, how to develop efficient algorithms, learn a bit about computational complexity (for example, when and why is quicksort faster than bubblesort) etc. At university there was a teacher who said that you should learn as many different programming languages as possible, at least one of every kind, i.e. one of the "classical brace languages", such as C, at least one object-oriented language (e.g. Smalltalk, Eiffel), one functional language (Haskell or OCaml), one assembly language (no matter which one) and so on. The more the better. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead." -- RFC 1925 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 21 14:31:56 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F8616A421 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:31:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mjalvarez@fastmail.fm) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F81513C487 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:31:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mjalvarez@fastmail.fm) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by out1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6B417E4 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web6.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.215]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:15:57 -0400 Received: by web6.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 0264719F08; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 10:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1182435356.26688.1196346301@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: +IqOKoK2GX6Awr3TZEpCR6U32TFWvslndMa8xCDjxIFZ 1182435356 From: "Mark Jayson Alvarez" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mjalvarez@fastmail.fm Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:15:56 +0800 Cc: Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:31:56 -0000 Hi, Let's say I have a very simple washing machine program. Now it has a timer which the duration of the spinning can be set. If I press the 3-minute button, wires beneath will get shorted. Electric current will flow into pin number 5 of the parallel cable connected to the parallel port of my PC. Now the CPU has a pin connected to this port. If it receives let's say 5V, it will stop what it's doing and=20 > fetches the > address of an "interrupt handler routine" from memory, > and jumps to that address (i.e. starts executing > instructions from that address). That handler is > usually installed in memory by the operating system. > The code checks which device caused the interrupt, > and then executes the appropriate routine in the > corresponding device driver. And when exactly did the Operating system installed this interrupt handler?? And suppose this handler runs the driver and the=20 appropriate routine inside it, how did the driver able to convert the electric current into a machine understandable data and was able to pass it to a program and the program receive the data as 3 minutes? Driver is just a software right? This part is what really confuses me.=20 I'm sure if I can find out how electric current have been actually converted into 1's and 0's I will not have trouble understanding how it can be converted the other way around. It has something to do with registers right? What are this registers looks like? A microchip that can get written using electric current? What are these 1's and 0's look like anyway? How are they written in the memory? A chemical reaction when electric current flows into the ram? Data that is written in the RAM differs the way they are written in a hard drive or a CD right? But the truth is they are all 1's and 0's? Thanks you very much! Sincerely, jay On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 14:33:56 +0200 (CEST), "Oliver Fromme" said: > Mark Jayson Alvarez wrote: > > Good day! I could have sent this to questions@freebsd.org but I know > > it will get treated as irrelevant topic as well. Just trying my luck > > here though. >=20 > Actually this is most appropriate on the "chat" list. > I've redirected replies there. >=20 > > I have a cousin who's taking up a programming course. He doesn't have > > background with programming nor an in depth understanding of how the > > computer works. I tried explaining him that it all started with > > abacus, and that people wanted to use something that could make their > > arithmetic life easier and that Charles Babbage tried automating this > > manual calculator with his steam engine or some sort... and that... >=20 > Actually Charles Babbage designed a complex mechanical > computing machine (with lots of gearwheels etc.), but > it only ever existed on paper. Only small parts of it > have actually been built, but never the whole thing, > because it was too complex. It would work in theory, > though. :-) >=20 > > This is how my programming teacher explains how a program gets > > executed. First you compile it into a machine readable code, then > > the operating system writes it in the memory, and finally the CPU > > fetches it and it finally gets toasted by the electricity flowing on > > the CPU's surface. It doesn't make things clearer though.:-( >=20 > That's pretty close to the truth, actually. >=20 > > I really don't get it. Can you in a very simple sentence explain to > > me how and where a software program >=20 > I'm afraid the interactions between memory, processor > (CPU) and software is a complex thing which cannot be > explained in a single simple sentence. I'll try to > explain a bit ... >=20 > A processor is able to execute instructions which are > called "machine code". Basically it's a sequence of > bytes stored in memory (RAM). The processor fetches > byte after byte from memory and executes the commands > that they represent. Such commands include: "load > a number from memory into a processor register", or > "add these two processor registers and store the result > in memory", or "check whether this value is zero, and > if it is, then jump to a specified address in memory > instead of continuing with the following instruction". > It's possible to have loops, subroutines, interrupt > routines and other things, but the details aren't > important in order to get a basic understanding. >=20 > Of course, most programmers don't write that machine > code directly. It's efficient for the processor to > execute, but it's inconvenient for a human programmer > to write. A programmer usually writes programs in a > higher-level language, such as C. Then a tool called > compiler is used to convert that "source code" into > "machine code" that can be executed by the processor. > The result is an executable file stored on disk (also > called a "binary"). >=20 > When a binary is about to be executed, the operating > system (such as FreeBSD) loads it from disk into RAM > where its byte stream can be executed by the processor. >=20 > Of course in reality it's more complicated, but the > above are the very basic and low-level things that > happen. >=20 > Device drivers are somewhat different. They're normal > binaries, too (usually compiled from source code, too), > but they're loaded once when the operating system boots > the computer, or once when the appropriate kernel > module is loaded. Many device drivers are interrupt- > driven. When an external event occurs, such as a > packet arriving on a network interface, or the user > pressing a key on the keyboard, the hardware device > signals an interrupt to the processor (basically a > connector pin on the processor is set from "low" to > "high", i.e. from 0 V to 5 V or similar). The processor > stops whatever it is doing right now, fetches the > address of an "interrupt handler routine" from memory, > and jumps to that address (i.e. starts executing > instructions from that address). That handler is > usually installed in memory by the operating system. > The code checks which device caused the interrupt, > and then executes the appropriate routine in the > corresponding device driver. When it's finished, > a "return" instruction is executed, which causes the > processor to resume whatever it was doing before the > interrupt occured. >=20 > > Does it have anything to do with the bios? >=20 > The BIOS is also simply a piece of software, stored > in a chip on the mainboard. It initializes the hard- > ware right after the machine is switched on, and > arranges for the operating system to be booted from > the disk (or from other kind of media if supported). > After the operating system takes control of the box, > the BIOS is not used anymore at all. (There are > certain exceptions, but lets forget about them for > now.) >=20 > Booting is usually a multi-stage process, i.e. first > the BIOS loads a tiny boot loader from the first > sector of the disk (the MBR =3D=3D master boot record), > then the code contained in the MBR loads the > operating system's first stage boot loader and so > on. All of those stages still use BIOS routines > to access the disk. The last stage (in FreeBSD > that's /boot/loader) loads the actual OS, i.e. the > kernel and modules that are required to boot the OS. > The kernel has its own device drivers for disks and > other media, so it doesn't use the BIOS anymore. >=20 > > I told my cousin, that someday he will be a real programmer and that > > even if he will be dealing only with java, html, animation and all > > sorts of high level programming stuffs, >=20 > It should be pointed out that HTML is not a programming > language. ;-) >=20 > > in the spirit of open source (and freebsd of course), it's better > > that he knows exactly how a program interacts with the physical > > computer. >=20 > Well ... It depends. As a high-level programmer, it > is good to know how machine code works and how the > compiler generates it, because it also enables you > to write more efficient programs. That's especially > true for kernel source and device drivers. >=20 > On the other hand, both processors and compilers > become more and more complex and advanced, and newly > designed higher-level languages (such as Python) > increase the "distance" between machine code and the > source code that people write, so there is less > relationship. >=20 > Therefore I think that nowadays it is more important > to learn software design, how to develop efficient > algorithms, learn a bit about computational complexity > (for example, when and why is quicksort faster than > bubblesort) etc. >=20 > At university there was a teacher who said that you > should learn as many different programming languages > as possible, at least one of every kind, i.e. one of > the "classical brace languages", such as C, at least > one object-oriented language (e.g. Smalltalk, Eiffel), > one functional language (Haskell or OCaml), one > assembly language (no matter which one) and so on. > The more the better. >=20 > Best regards > Oliver >=20 > --=20 > Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. > Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch=E4ftsfuehrun= g: > secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M=FC= n- > chen, HRB 125758, Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Geb= hart >=20 > FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd >=20 > "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this > is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where > they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting > under them as they fly overhead." -- RFC 1925 --=20 Mark Jayson Alvarez mjalvarez@fastmail.fm --=20 http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software=0D or over the web From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 21 16:33:43 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4586C16A41F for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:33:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9EC13C45A for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:33:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (nspslg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5LGXXB6095149; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:33:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l5LGXWvG095148; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:33:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:33:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200706211633.l5LGXWvG095148@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mjalvarez@fastmail.fm In-Reply-To: <1182435356.26688.1196346301@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:33:38 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mjalvarez@fastmail.fm List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:33:43 -0000 Mark Jayson Alvarez wrote: > Let's say I have a very simple washing machine program. > Now it has a timer which the duration of the spinning can be set. > If I press the 3-minute button, wires beneath will get shorted. > Electric current will flow into pin number 5 of the parallel cable > connected to the parallel port of my PC. Now the CPU has a pin > connected to this port. If it receives let's say 5V, it will stop > what it's doing and > > > fetches the > > address of an "interrupt handler routine" from memory, > > and jumps to that address (i.e. starts executing > > instructions from that address). That handler is > > usually installed in memory by the operating system. > > The code checks which device caused the interrupt, > > and then executes the appropriate routine in the > > corresponding device driver. > > And when exactly did the Operating system installed this interrupt > handler?? When it boots. The processor supports an interrupt handler address table. That's simply a list of memory addresses which is itself stored in memory. Each kind of interrupt (they're numbered) has an entry in that table that points to the appropriate interrupt handler which has been installed by the OS upon boot. For example, let's say interrupt line 7 is connected to the parallel port. So when the processer receives a signal on that line, it looks up the address that is stored in entry #7 in the interrupt table. Then it will execute commands at that memory address, and afterwards it will resume whatever was interupted. > And suppose this handler runs the driver and the > appropriate routine inside it, how did the driver able to convert the > electric > current into a machine understandable data and was able to pass it > to a program and the program receive the data as 3 minutes? It depends. If you have one interrupt per button, then there's a one-to-one relation ship between buttons and interrupt numbers. So if you press that 3-minutes-button, let's say it's connected to interrupt pin #7, so the processor will run the handler that has been registered for interrupt #7. That handler is specific to that interrupt and to that button, so it "knows" that the 3-minutes-button has been pressed when it is called (because that's why it was installed for the interrupt in the first place). There is no need for the driver to "convert the electric current". The handler is called as a reaction to the interrupt signal, and that reaction in itself contains the information about the press of the button. However -- normally you don't have one interrupt per button, but rather one interrupt per device. Having one interrupt per key (on a keyboard) would be very inefficient. Instead, there is one interrupt for the whole keyboard (or for all the buttons on a device). So, any button press will cause the same handler to be executed. The device driver routine knows that a button has been pressed, but it still has to find out which one. How does it do that? Well, in simple cases (like embedded systems in a washing machine), the electrical lines from the buttons are connected to I/O pins on the processor, or on separate I/O chip which is connected to the actual processor. Basically this is similar to an interrupt line, in that it causes a pin to go from 0 V to 5 V (or whatever voltage levels are used). But the difference is that it does not cause an interrupt to occur. The processor simply ignores those I/O pins during normal operation. However, the processor supports machine codes that can read the current state of the I/O pins. If the processor executes such a code (i.e. a certain byte sequence), it copies the current state of the I/O pins into a register, where it can be dissected and examined with other machine instructions. That state is usually encoded in a binary format, where each bit corresponds to one I/O pin. A single byte has 8 bit, so it can contain the information of 8 such I/O pins. If a pin is 0 V, the corresponding bit is 0, otherwise it is 1. > Driver is just a software right? Right. > I'm sure if I can find out how electric current have been actually > converted into 1's and 0's I will not have trouble understanding > how it can be converted the other way around. Actually nothing needs to be converted. "0" and "1" are just interpretations of different voltage levels. > It has something to do with registers right? What are this > registers looks like? A microchip that can get written using > electric current? Processor register are simply small pieces of memory inside the processor. They are required for the processor to perform calculations and other things, because they cannot be performed directly in RAM. In order to do anything with data stored in RAM, the processor has to load values into registers, and when it's done, the result have to be stored back into RAM. For example, in order to add two numbers that are stored in memory, the processor loads both of them into two of its registers. Once they're there, they are added by the ALU (== arithmetic-logial unit, part of the processor), and the result is again stored in a register. Then the contents of that register are written back to main memory. > What are these 1's and 0's look like anyway? How are they written in the > memory? A chemical reaction when electric current flows into the ram? No, it's all electrophysical, not chemical. Well, a "1" usually looks like 0 V, and a "1" looks like 5V (or 3 V or whatever). Inside electronic components such as processors, RAM, graphics and network cards etc., bits are almost always represented as voltage levels. > Data that is written in the RAM differs the way they are written in a > hard drive or a CD right? But the truth is they are all 1's and 0's? Yes. All media (RAM, flash, disks, tapes, CD, DVD and even punch cards) have in common that they store data as "0" or "1" in one form or another. The important property is that the media is capable of having two distinct states, so one of the states is assigned the "0" value and the other the "1" value. For example, CDs have tiny "pits" on the surface. A laser beam measures the width of those pits (small ones and large ones), and a DSP converts that into a sequence of "0" and "1". On hard disks the same information is stored using magnetism. RAM (DRAM == dynamic RAM) uses tiny capacitors to hold a very small electric charge that represents the bit value. If you want to know more details about how a processor access data in memory, how address bus and data bus works, how a processor is built up from transistor functions, I strongly recommend that you buy a good beginners book of processor design. I remember at school we've built simple electronic components ourselves: a flipflop (that's a simple 1-bit memory) from two transistors, logical gates (i.e. "and", "or", "not" circuits), bit counters, adders and similar things. At that time that was very enlightening for me. I suggest you try something like that, too. You can buy electronic construction and experimentation kits at toy shops. Don't be afraid that they're intended for children, I know quite some adults who play with things like that once in a while, including myself. :-) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "C++ is the only current language making COBOL look good." -- Bertrand Meyer From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 21 17:19:09 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5045A16A41F for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:19:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: from smtp7-g19.free.fr (smtp7-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.64]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D5813C44C for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:19:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: from graf.pompo.net (graf.pompo.net [81.56.186.139]) by smtp7-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2487418938 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:19:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: by graf.pompo.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9ABCF11429; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:19:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:19:05 +0200 From: Thierry Thomas To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20070621171905.GC19491@graf.pompo.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1182418101.6802.1196302545@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Face: (hRbQnK~Pt7$ct`!fupO(`y_WL4^-Iwn4@ly-.,[4xC4xc; y=\ipKMNm<1J>lv@PP~7Z<.t KjAnXLs: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 6.2-STABLE i386 Organization: Kabbale Eros X-PGP: 0xC71405A2 Cc: Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:19:09 -0000 Le Jeu 21 jui 07 à 14:33:56 +0200, Oliver Fromme écrivait : > > I have a cousin who's taking up a programming course. He doesn't have > > background with programming nor an in depth understanding of how the > > computer works. I tried explaining him that it all started with > > abacus, and that people wanted to use something that could make their > > arithmetic life easier and that Charles Babbage tried automating this > > manual calculator with his steam engine or some sort... and that... > > Actually Charles Babbage designed a complex mechanical > computing machine (with lots of gearwheels etc.), but > it only ever existed on paper. Only small parts of it > have actually been built, but never the whole thing, > because it was too complex. It would work in theory, > though. :-) Pascal built such a machine: . -- Th. Thomas. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 21 18:28:37 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BFE116A41F for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:28:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5E113C45A for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:28:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (obmtuh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5LISU1T001648 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:28:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l5LISUJM001647; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:28:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:28:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200706211828.l5LISUJM001647@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20070621171905.GC19491@graf.pompo.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:28:37 -0000 Thierry Thomas wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > > I have a cousin who's taking up a programming course. He doesn't have > > > background with programming nor an in depth understanding of how the > > > computer works. I tried explaining him that it all started with > > > abacus, and that people wanted to use something that could make their > > > arithmetic life easier and that Charles Babbage tried automating this > > > manual calculator with his steam engine or some sort... and that... > > > > Actually Charles Babbage designed a complex mechanical > > computing machine (with lots of gearwheels etc.), but > > it only ever existed on paper. Only small parts of it > > have actually been built, but never the whole thing, > > because it was too complex. It would work in theory, > > though. :-) > > Pascal built such a machine: > . That's a quite different one. Pascal's Calculator was a rather simple mechanical calculator that could only add and subtract numbers. Once the design was finished, it was quite easy to actually build it. I wouldn't call it a "computer". The Machine that Charles Babbage designed almost 200 years later was meant to tabulate polynomial functions, and it was _much_ more complex. It was a beast consisting of 25,000 connected gearwheels. And that was only his first design; it was followed by even more complex ones. In fact it is true that his last design of an "analytical engine" (the first programmable computer ever, though never actually built) was intended to be powered by a steam engine, so the OP was right. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_babbage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd I suggested holding a "Python Object Oriented Programming Seminar", but the acronym was unpopular. -- Joseph Strout From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 22 07:41:10 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB2E16A41F for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:41:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.176]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B89D13C44B for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:41:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u77so170804pyb for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eJfzjF42t0KBkLdo1GS2jjwPAgpR4INSn8FMvNqP/WINbexk9ZueOGfmnzdlDWGZrT4NZu7HpRSIci5APeEH2+INm6bCNsUAshgBpBpD63/koOuljuuCNRKrKNO4X+VyaLg9y1YAdK6b4Jjb1oKZHw/5ggCitBF3FWcGHsqs++g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=oRtvwIfKJh6CzkWC3wzVra/98tvhWuMVjZNULXqQN5WfTe5PIPCvkhQ6ApEiolpz7rtRHIKBN0JAALJ1E8IZSCNj66Vp/kd0UQlf1g6zsd0kumr1B1+2HToUSXRSIgODkbAUhyldasNoyyjEB9tEpZNxHf5llqGGFq2CrHrrehg= Received: by 10.35.78.9 with SMTP id f9mr4640466pyl.1182498069269; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.103.17 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <13413b8f0706220041s505854f0m9b10621e33a2efe3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 09:41:09 +0200 From: "Gueven Bay" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <13413b8f0706200831x2b37f359y558af4e581eaf0d5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Menhir a distro for FreeBSD plus three other free operating systems. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:41:10 -0000 2007/6/20, reed : > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007, Gueven Bay wrote: > > > Menhir will distribute the sources of: > > FreeBSD Release 6.1 (base system) > > > Will you be using pkgsrc with FreeBSD also? (On FreeBSD, will pkgsrc be > used with or instead of FreeBSD ports?) Yes, I want to use pkgsrc with all included operating systems. The FreeBSD ports will not be used to concentrate on the testing the userland apps from pkgsrc. So I am also not going to include the KDE packages of Slackware for example because you can easily build KDE from pkgsrc and these builds (and the pkgsrc receipts) should be tested with every included OS. regards Gueven From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 22 08:08:47 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBAF16A400 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:08:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [83.120.8.8]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6385113C46A for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:08:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (ozohwn@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l5M88eC8035158; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:08:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.13.4/8.13.1/Submit) id l5M88eeV035157; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:08:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:08:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200706220808.l5M88eeV035157@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gueven.bay@googlemail.com In-Reply-To: <13413b8f0706200831x2b37f359y558af4e581eaf0d5@mail.gmail.com> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.2-20060425 ("Shillay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.11-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:08:46 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Menhir a distro for FreeBSD plus three other free operating systems. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gueven.bay@googlemail.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:08:47 -0000 Gueven Bay wrote: > Menhir will distribute the sources of: > FreeBSD Release 6.1 (base system) Why 6.1, not a more recent release? 6.1 contains a lot of known bugs that have been fixed in the meantime. > The base systems are _forever_ "frozen" . That's another good reason to use a version which is not already outdated. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd With Perl you can manipulate text, interact with programs, talk over networks, drive Web pages, perform arbitrary precision arithmetic, and write programs that look like Snoopy swearing. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 22 11:19:50 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D4D16A400 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:19:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: from py-out-1112.google.com (py-out-1112.google.com [64.233.166.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A606B13C44C for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:19:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gueven.bay@googlemail.com) Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u77so257199pyb for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:19:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LCQpBBSkm5+9FKf1e9jEp9Trfj9F7L/STrV4iVIqvCD1w7lPQSRrKfXD/zoUNbaOpRhXMa5FRxNX6m4/TayXx1Q0a4FxzrazJh7v9xnuklZn40l7o+3gN8yLn7Bi/6dlp8ipk7ZJRNFABd+BuSZu5kWlNV8VH2AUYPtCqSOk9yg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=I9+K+7UfoiyVEGuxVHqGHH8XdZowX/+SrDYM5Qz44uSD2M6f3AIRv+v/Y1PrnCv8HNOnU4nhAx3xjtpH7yGHk9qVaNqpniPGCAhvZBHMxqlrQZKRN2GhKrbXO5bkNy6Q5JNE47Lg+hvklOcG3gIigCa8BKf/Z0xffeC8LepSdTs= Received: by 10.35.101.1 with SMTP id d1mr4970315pym.1182511189764; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.103.17 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <13413b8f0706220419k57d9f125l1050ce1a2e9431aa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:19:49 +0200 From: "Gueven Bay" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200706220808.l5M88eeV035157@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <13413b8f0706200831x2b37f359y558af4e581eaf0d5@mail.gmail.com> <200706220808.l5M88eeV035157@lurza.secnetix.de> Subject: Re: Menhir a distro for FreeBSD plus three other free operating systems. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 11:19:51 -0000 2007/6/22, Oliver Fromme : > Gueven Bay wrote: > > Menhir will distribute the sources of: > > FreeBSD Release 6.1 (base system) > > Why 6.1, not a more recent release? 6.1 contains a lot of > known bugs that have been fixed in the meantime. ___I apologize for this big mistake I made!! ___ I meant 6.2 but I wrote 6.1. I don't really know how I came to write 6.1. > > The base systems are _forever_ "frozen" . > > That's another good reason to use a version which is not > already outdated. Yes, yes, you are right. > Best regards > Oliver > > -- > Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. > Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch=E4ftsfuehrun= g: > secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M=FC= n- > chen, HRB 125758, Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Geb= hart > > FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd > > With Perl you can manipulate text, interact with programs, talk over > networks, drive Web pages, perform arbitrary precision arithmetic, > and write programs that look like Snoopy swearing. > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 23 17:38:58 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF4D16A400 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from ketralnis.com (melchoir.ketralnis.com [68.183.67.83]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7810C13C455 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from [10.0.0.231] ([10.0.0.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by ketralnis.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5NHFerh092288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) In-Reply-To: <200706211633.l5LGXWvG095148@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <200706211633.l5LGXWvG095148@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <84FEA104-C7A0-4CED-A515-97249F7FECC9@ketralnis.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David King Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:15:37 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Cc: mjalvarez@fastmail.fm Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:38:58 -0000 > If you want to know more details about how a processor > access data in memory, how address bus and data bus > works, how a processor is built up from transistor > functions, I strongly recommend that you buy a good > beginners book of processor design. Do you have any recommendations? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 23 17:38:58 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F03BE16A469 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from ketralnis.com (melchoir.ketralnis.com [68.183.67.83]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEC513C43E for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:38:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) Received: from [10.0.0.231] ([10.0.0.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by ketralnis.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l5NHNw9P097953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dking@ketralnis.com) In-Reply-To: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David King Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:23:57 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Cc: mjalvarez@fastmail.fm Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:38:59 -0000 > The BIOS is also simply a piece of software, stored > in a chip on the mainboard. In memory, a program's bits are represented by the voltages of transistors in particular places on a DRAM chip. On a CD, by the width of pits in the surface of the CD. In chips like BIOS and other types of firmware that don't need power to maintain their state but that can be re-written, how are the bits physically represented, and how are they read out to memory? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 23 18:49:44 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37AD16A400 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:49:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bulliver@badcomputer.org) Received: from pd2mo1so.prod.shaw.ca (shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net [24.71.223.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B7413C44B for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:49:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bulliver@badcomputer.org) Received: from pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd3mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.178]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JK3004YQO3NMS00@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:47:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.152]) by pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-7.05 (built Sep 5 2006)) with ESMTP id <0JK300E0XO3NU930@pd3mr2so.prod.shaw.ca> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:47:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from virgo.badcomputer.org ([68.148.98.184]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0JK30048UO3M4070@l-daemon> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:47:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:47:27 -0600 From: darren kirby In-reply-to: <84FEA104-C7A0-4CED-A515-97249F7FECC9@ketralnis.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <200706231147.27955.bulliver@badcomputer.org> Organization: Badcomputer Org. MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline References: <200706211633.l5LGXWvG095148@lurza.secnetix.de> <84FEA104-C7A0-4CED-A515-97249F7FECC9@ketralnis.com> User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: bulliver@badcomputer.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:49:44 -0000 quoth the David King: > > If you want to know more details about how a processor > > access data in memory, how address bus and data bus > > works, how a processor is built up from transistor > > functions, I strongly recommend that you buy a good > > beginners book of processor design. > > Do you have any recommendations? "Computer Organization and Design" by Patterson and Hennessy ISBN 1-55860-604-1 ...is one I'm working through right now. Reasonably priced at ~$50 for 620 pages and about half as many more on the CDROM. As an added bonus you will learn Mips assembly. -d -- darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org "...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..." - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 23 20:19:37 2007 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9401516A400 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phi@evilphi.com) Received: from mail.twinthornes.com (mail.twinthornes.com [65.75.198.147]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CCE13C4AD for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:19:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phi@evilphi.com) Received: from [10.9.70.101] (pool-72-90-106-233.ptldor.fios.verizon.net [72.90.106.233]) by mail.twinthornes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D753C9; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <467D7B81.1040305@evilphi.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 12:58:57 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David King References: <200706211233.l5LCXuYv082845@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where software meets hardware.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:19:37 -0000 David King wrote: >> The BIOS is also simply a piece of software, stored >> in a chip on the mainboard. > > In memory, a program's bits are represented by the voltages of > transistors in particular places on a DRAM chip. On a CD, by the > width of pits in the surface of the CD. In chips like BIOS and other > types of firmware that don't need power to maintain their state but > that can be re-written, how are the bits physically represented, and > how are they read out to memory? Look up hot-carrier injection and quantum electron tunneling. Basically such devices use over-voltage to cause electron migration within the device. The migrated electrons result in measurable changes in the electrical characteristics of the gate (i.e., threshold voltage). The process is reversable but destructive, since you can't put the electrons back exactly where they were before. This is also why EEPROMs and flash devices have write-count lifetimes. -- Darren Pilgrim