From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 27 12:23:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19079106566C for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:23:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: from sigma.octantis.com.au (ns2.octantis.com.au [207.44.189.124]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA618FC15 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:23:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: (qmail 25854 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2008 07:23:43 -0500 Received: from 203-166-248-146.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO ayiin) (203.166.248.146) by sigma.octantis.com.au with (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 27 Jul 2008 07:23:43 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:23:39 +1000 From: Norberto Meijome To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080727222339.1357308e@ayiin> In-Reply-To: <4889A0ED.9000103@apriliaforum.net> References: <4889A0ED.9000103@apriliaforum.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.5.0 (GTK+ 2.12.11; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Face: 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 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:23:44 -0000 On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:46:21 +0200 Raven wrote: > Gerard van Essen wrote: > > is there anything you guys think I should add/change to make the website > > even better for newbies, for people moving on from Linux and those who just > > want to read what's happening in "FreeBSD land". > > > To BSD users, your Blog makes perfect sense. > I read it with interest, follow the links and mostly share your view. > . . but I'm a Unix user since 1989. > > There are very few things that make "normal" users interested in FreeBSD. > Maybe our development model, the ports, and our tolerant community. > (Everything comes from a single source, no one tells you to RTFM - > Newbies like that) Quality of documentation in FreeBSD is astounding compared to that of any Linux distro - the fact that there aren't x00s of BSD distros obviously makes it 'simpler' to document, but comparing to any one big distro, i think the consistent quality of documentation throughout the 'ecosystem' ( website, handbook (site + installed), mailing lists, manpages, configuration files,etc) > Folks want an OS, not a religion - this is where we beat Linux single > handed. probably one of the nicest (+ more accurate) comparisons i've yet read on this. couldn't agree more... > It is of utmost importance to tell a Windows user, that we are NOT Linux. > Don't say FreeBSD is a Linux alternative - they might get the wrong > impression. +1 > The "marketing strategy" should be a tad more aggressive. > FreeBSD was there before everyone else, and we will be there after them. > (You wouldn't believe how many ppl are impressed by that fact) > They might also like to know, that FreeBSD/Windows can be dual booted > by the Vista loader. > (Afaik, this is not possible with Linux) interesting, didn't know that (possibly because i haven't touched vista). b _________________________ {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome "Gravity cannot be blamed for people falling in love." Albert Einstein I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet. Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been Warned. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 27 13:45:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E870106564A for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:45:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: from sigma.octantis.com.au (ns2.octantis.com.au [207.44.189.124]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C414A8FC1E for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:45:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: (qmail 30535 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2008 08:45:58 -0500 Received: from 203-166-248-146.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO ayiin) (203.166.248.146) by sigma.octantis.com.au with (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 27 Jul 2008 08:45:57 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:45:54 +1000 From: Norberto Meijome To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080727234554.66dcfa05@ayiin> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.5.0 (GTK+ 2.12.11; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Face: 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 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:45:59 -0000 On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:34:03 -0400 "Gerard van Essen" wrote: > is there anything you guys think I should add/change to make the website > even better for newbies, for people moving on from Linux and those who just > want to read what's happening in "FreeBSD land". ( I've just subscribed to your RSS ;) thanks! ). n ideas below, each n/$0.02 :) - provide links to interesting discussions happening in the different mailing lists.... similar to blog pings / digg or ./ even? . For example, the one at -security@ , 'Subject: A new kind of security needed , Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:10:32 -0700' . - for the v. technical minded, new to *BSD or not, it may be interesting to know what is the latest feature MFC'ed ( eg, Julian E's multiple routing code). Similarly, 'requests for test of new features' ( NAT-T patchset a few weeks back in -net@ ). - idem major additions to ports ( eg, a major application / framework / tool added...? maybe this is available @ freshports , but i think freshports is just automated stuff... B _________________________ {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome "I don't think they could put him in a mental hospital. On the other hand, if he were already in, I don't think they'd let him out." I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet. Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been Warned. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 27 22:31:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0CB106566B for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from human2205@gmail.com) Received: from hu-out-0506.google.com (hu-out-0506.google.com [72.14.214.237]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09998FC12 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:31:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from human2205@gmail.com) Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 34so914751hue.8 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:31:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=lf+ndZWLqlRuFV97JDI1lL35iZyY5G8s+U4dhUG0A7o=; b=MK8YfqIAlUe7LVWpVKpylwceBpZA6ulvHOw2AQK1vqHXwYwgCbVz26xW+pCPgbrvkK tLReT8ep9YA+b/p/0A1s2bH+1gTr0OBYpFwGaHuMBcdK5NaCsZ6FLycqg2sp0twBjZFP sKDyVp5IlbRmV9Lw6ahJRwXzJYYsijAUG9Sdo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=IWTLrMssFm9eU2OeByd2mXomqmmJl/lZRoqFBoOoASIJN0Nz9MeSt5uOuPBPw9bE4X DGqwPzsjVJNpXIy+hIxQ9pSpcvws//PU19JNrH4O+4OgourCbHRF7Vb+afnFz80DHMOY 46/BjJvA7zL56gyQH3nQOJUWzRiOGY/24tbYI= Received: by 10.125.98.11 with SMTP id a11mr241370mkm.85.1217196954276; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.125.157.4 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <818ba6630807271515u2eaa4ddbqa883c5c380529843@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:15:49 -0400 From: J.C. To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20080727222339.1357308e@ayiin> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4889A0ED.9000103@apriliaforum.net> <20080727222339.1357308e@ayiin> Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:31:36 -0000 >> Folks want an OS, not a religion - this is where we beat Linux single >> handed. > > probably one of the nicest (+ more accurate) comparisons i've yet read on this. > couldn't agree more... I second that. Being a computer lover, I was drawn to free/open source software because of its superior quality, the elevated levels of competence of its users, and the comparatively limitless technical capabilities. Software freedom is very attractive but hardly a moral requirement, not to mention an absolute non-issue for the unsophisticated 99% of computer users. I began looking at the BSDs, etc. after being repulsed by the unintelligent religiosity of the GNU/Linux communities, especially (with a few exceptions) the senseless illogic and useless appeals to emotion of one of Free Software's most outspoken advocates. I was surprised to learn that what I valued most about "Linux systems" is actually true of *any* UNIX or UNIX-like operating system. Then I learned that FreeBSD is both reasonable towards proprietary software *and* a better operating system internally, and I was sold. >> It is of utmost importance to tell a Windows user, that we are NOT Linux. >> Don't say FreeBSD is a Linux alternative - they might get the wrong >> impression. There are very subtle psychological fallacies at work with Linux. Take laundry detergent as an example. Manufacturers have long known that many people choose their brand of detergent using trivial (and I would argue nonsensical) criteria, like the images, shapes, and colors of the packaging, vivid word imagery like "Fresh Breeze" or "Refreshing Lavender", perceived (instead of actual) quality differences resulting from advertising or higher price, the imagery used in advertising, the smell, the perceived status of using higher-priced detergent, or simply being the same brand that one grew up with. Thus, companies like Proctor & Gamble actually have several brands of laundry detergent "competing" with each other to increase the likelihood that a customer will choose one of their brands. This is also why there are so many "makes" of GM automobiles. I remember how, growing up, my father would never fill up at any gas station except Mobile (a common gas station chain in the eastern United States) because they had "better gas", and, for a long time, I believed that. Does Mobile really have better gas than their competitors? I doubt it. Did my dad know that gas stations like Mobile routinely buy gas from other chains that they're supposedly competing with? *That's* a good question. : ) What first frustrated me about Linux is actually the main reason for its popularity: the hundreds of distributions of the exact same operating system with mostly the exact same software, differing only by mostly trivial characteristics like the choice of desktop environment or package management system, which applications are included by default and in the repositories, the default theme of the user interface, and the wallpaper. And users will actually argue over which is better. Even though it's possible to use Red Hat packages and repositories to maintain a live "Debian" system, for example. Ubuntu is a particularly "fashionable" distribution at the moment. Flashy? Certainly. Accessible? Sure. I always keep an Xubuntu Live CD on hand for when I just want a graphical operating system up and working quickly. But as a primary operating system, is it that much better than mature distributions like Fedora? Not really. Do its annoying design limitations in the name of "accessibility" and immaturity piss me off? Very quickly. Its popularity is mainly because of those trivial secondary characteristics, i.e. it's "cool". Experienced Linux users know that Linux is Linux is Linux, but many don't seem to know that Unix is Unix is Unix, and Linux is just another Unix*. This is a great place to start talking about Unix. Those powerful command lines in "Linux" that they love so much? They work the same on *any* UNIX-like system. Shell scripts? Configurable window managers? Desktop environments? Apache? Postgre? MySQL? PHP? All identical. So many of the things people love about "Linux" are really characteristics of UNIX-like systems. Talk about why Unix is so great. Explain that Linux is not Unix. Then explain why FreeBSD is better than Linux. If that doesn't work, maybe we could make a hundred different distributions of wallpaper and desktop themes, to ease the transition a little bit? ; ) I would also caution against going after Windows users too aggressively. FreeBSD is for users who can handle a UNIX-like operating systems. Ample documentation and an approachable community do not change the fact that any UNIX-like system, be it Linux, FreeBSD, or any other, is considerably more difficult to learn and less accessible than a Windows system. Since about 99% of computer users have no computer literacy at all, there are many people for whom *any* Unix system is completely inappropriate. The emergence of quality free software for Windows (particularly GPL-licensed software; the GPL is a much more useful license for Windows software than for Unix) can help close the functional gap for Windows users and perhaps ease the transition, as it did for me. Really, it's just about the software. - Jonathan _____ *UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group, all rights reserved, blah blah blah, but Unix is not. "Unix" is a genericized ex-trademark describing any UNIX-like opearting system, as well as the general characteristics of such a system. Capitalization matters. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 28 04:50:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A35106566B for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:50:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: from sigma.octantis.com.au (ns2.octantis.com.au [207.44.189.124]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B3A8FC14 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:50:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@meijome.net) Received: (qmail 14622 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2008 23:50:37 -0500 Received: from 203-166-248-146.dyn.iinet.net.au (HELO ayiin) (203.166.248.146) by sigma.octantis.com.au with (DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 27 Jul 2008 23:50:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:50:34 +1000 From: Norberto Meijome To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080728145034.575b4c1f@ayiin> In-Reply-To: <818ba6630807271515u2eaa4ddbqa883c5c380529843@mail.gmail.com> References: <4889A0ED.9000103@apriliaforum.net> <20080727222339.1357308e@ayiin> <818ba6630807271515u2eaa4ddbqa883c5c380529843@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.5.0 (GTK+ 2.12.11; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Face: 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 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:50:37 -0000 On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:15:49 -0400 J.C. wrote: > I would also caution against going after Windows users too > aggressively. FreeBSD is for users who can handle a UNIX-like > operating systems. Ample documentation and an approachable community > do not change the fact that any UNIX-like system, be it Linux, > FreeBSD, or any other, is considerably more difficult to learn and > less accessible than a Windows system. "Linux is for people who hate Windows, BSD is for people who love UNIX." B _________________________ {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome "That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex tasks impossible." John William Chambless I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when wet. Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have been Warned. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 28 18:47:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366431065677 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:47:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvatore@oems.ch) Received: from mxout003.mail.hostpoint.ch (mxout003.mail.hostpoint.ch [217.26.49.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A06208FC12 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:47:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from salvatore@oems.ch) Received: from [10.0.2.20] (helo=asmtp002.mail.hostpoint.ch) by mxout003.mail.hostpoint.ch with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1KNX3C-00022j-DX for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:02:26 +0200 Received: from [212.98.44.96] (helo=oemspc03) by asmtp002.mail.hostpoint.ch with esmtpa (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1KNX3A-000Ada-Ox for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:02:26 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender-Id: oemssag5@oems.ch Message-ID: <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> From: "Salvatore Albanese" To: References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:02:23 +0200 Organization: OEMS Sagl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:47:57 -0000 Greetings all. I met with Alan Cox early this year, and we spoke about how Linux and FreeBSD should stay compact and hold our ground on Free Open Source Software... this is the most important thing we need to keep in mind. We have to study the history of BSD in general and it's roots. There are several distro's of FreeBSD, that is good, that allows growth and does not isolate any one of the many developers and coders. We must remind that apple experimented with UNIX many years ago and now use the Darwin distro for MAC OS X. This is a big statement! Imagine a BSD distro that is so easy even windows users find it confortable. 20% of the windows market moved to MAC OX S in that last 18 months. We have seen several real tries of Desktop based solutions of BSD sprout up in the last few years, and they are really good, with very large user base. With our (we advocates) help we can move along side of MAC and get a larger slice of the pie. Remember it is up to us to advocate. Not like a zelot, but by showing the way and putting a good foot forward and not get sucked into my distro is better than yours. we need to be honest and show what is best for the users needs. I am looking forward to October 22 - 25 where I will take the FreeBSD foundation and FreeBSD to the people and try to get them to try it. I am sure we will have lots of people who will say why use FreeBSD there is LINUX. I met with the TLUGS, and many told me they already use BSD, infact they asked me to come to the last meeting to present some info about FreeBSD. The developer from Debian did more advocacy for FreeBSD than I did. See there are many person who see the power of FreeBSD and will tell you straight off. Many users at TLUGS told me they were not aware of what was going on with the Desktop distros of FreeBSD, and then the LINUX Users also told me Oh boy now I can have a FreeBSD desktop just like my server OS! I said what... they told me a FreeBSD server scales well and they use it. So ther We need to keep the soft approach, and keep on the drums so that our voices are heard. Many times it is only a short talk about the advances FreeBSD is making that will help FreeBSD become used more. I for one have started a project to push FreeBSD in my area, and I have found very positive reactions. Free Open Source Software is now comming of age. Let all know about the sucess stories, and if you pass some stories my way I will be sure to make them known at the Trade show that will be help in Ticino Switzerland this year. Salvatore Albanese Sr Consultant OEMS Sagl CP 210 6576 Gerra (Gambarogno) TI Switzerland Tel +41 91 859 0730 Fax +41 91 859 0731 E-mail info[at]oems(dot).ch Web www.oems.ch Skype name: oems_sagl Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 > Send freebsd-advocacy mailing list submissions to > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of freebsd-advocacy digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FreeBSD News blog (Norberto Meijome) > 2. Re: FreeBSD News blog (Norberto Meijome) > 3. Re: FreeBSD News blog (J.C.) > 4. Re: FreeBSD News blog (Norberto Meijome) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:23:39 +1000 > From: Norberto Meijome > Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20080727222339.1357308e@ayiin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:46:21 +0200 > Raven wrote: > >> Gerard van Essen wrote: >> > is there anything you guys think I should add/change to make the >> > website >> > even better for newbies, for people moving on from Linux and those who >> > just >> > want to read what's happening in "FreeBSD land". >> > >> To BSD users, your Blog makes perfect sense. >> I read it with interest, follow the links and mostly share your view. >> . . but I'm a Unix user since 1989. >> >> There are very few things that make "normal" users interested in >> FreeBSD. >> Maybe our development model, the ports, and our tolerant community. >> (Everything comes from a single source, no one tells you to RTFM - >> Newbies like that) > > Quality of documentation in FreeBSD is astounding compared to that of any > Linux > distro - the fact that there aren't x00s of BSD distros obviously makes it > 'simpler' to document, but comparing to any one big distro, i think the > consistent quality of documentation throughout the 'ecosystem' ( website, > handbook (site + installed), mailing lists, manpages, configuration > files,etc) > >> Folks want an OS, not a religion - this is where we beat Linux single >> handed. > > probably one of the nicest (+ more accurate) comparisons i've yet read on > this. > couldn't agree more... > >> It is of utmost importance to tell a Windows user, that we are NOT Linux. >> Don't say FreeBSD is a Linux alternative - they might get the wrong >> impression. > > +1 > >> The "marketing strategy" should be a tad more aggressive. >> FreeBSD was there before everyone else, and we will be there after them. >> (You wouldn't believe how many ppl are impressed by that fact) >> They might also like to know, that FreeBSD/Windows can be dual booted >> by the Vista loader. >> (Afaik, this is not possible with Linux) > > interesting, didn't know that (possibly because i haven't touched vista). > b > _________________________ > {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome > > "Gravity cannot be blamed for people falling in love." > Albert Einstein > > I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when > wet. > Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You have > been > Warned. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:45:54 +1000 > From: Norberto Meijome > Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20080727234554.66dcfa05@ayiin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:34:03 -0400 > "Gerard van Essen" wrote: > >> is there anything you guys think I should add/change to make the website >> even better for newbies, for people moving on from Linux and those who >> just >> want to read what's happening in "FreeBSD land". > > ( I've just subscribed to your RSS ;) thanks! ). > n ideas below, each n/$0.02 :) > > - provide links to interesting discussions happening in the different > mailing lists.... similar to blog pings / digg or ./ even? . For > example, the one at -security@ , 'Subject: A new kind of security needed > , Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:10:32 -0700' . > > - for the v. technical minded, new to *BSD or not, it may be interesting > to know what is the latest feature MFC'ed ( eg, Julian E's multiple > routing code). Similarly, 'requests for test of new features' ( NAT-T > patchset a few weeks back in -net@ ). > > - idem major additions to ports ( eg, a major application / framework / > tool added...? maybe this is available @ freshports , but i think > freshports is just automated stuff... > > B > _________________________ > {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome > > "I don't think they could put him in a mental hospital. On the other > hand, if he were already in, I don't think they'd let him out." > > I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when > wet. Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You > have been Warned. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:15:49 -0400 > From: J.C. > Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > <818ba6630807271515u2eaa4ddbqa883c5c380529843@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >>> Folks want an OS, not a religion - this is where we beat Linux single >>> handed. >> >> probably one of the nicest (+ more accurate) comparisons i've yet read on >> this. >> couldn't agree more... > > I second that. Being a computer lover, I was drawn to free/open source > software because of its superior quality, the elevated levels of > competence of its users, and the comparatively limitless technical > capabilities. Software freedom is very attractive but hardly a moral > requirement, not to mention an absolute non-issue for the > unsophisticated 99% of computer users. > > I began looking at the BSDs, etc. after being repulsed by the > unintelligent religiosity of the GNU/Linux communities, especially > (with a few exceptions) the senseless illogic and useless appeals to > emotion of one of Free Software's most outspoken advocates. I was > surprised to learn that what I valued most about "Linux systems" is > actually true of *any* UNIX or UNIX-like operating system. Then I > learned that FreeBSD is both reasonable towards proprietary software > *and* a better operating system internally, and I was sold. > >>> It is of utmost importance to tell a Windows user, that we are NOT >>> Linux. >>> Don't say FreeBSD is a Linux alternative - they might get the wrong >>> impression. > > There are very subtle psychological fallacies at work with Linux. Take > laundry detergent as an example. Manufacturers have long known that > many people choose their brand of detergent using trivial (and I would > argue nonsensical) criteria, like the images, shapes, and colors of > the packaging, vivid word imagery like "Fresh Breeze" or "Refreshing > Lavender", perceived (instead of actual) quality differences resulting > from advertising or higher price, the imagery used in advertising, the > smell, the perceived status of using higher-priced detergent, or > simply being the same brand that one grew up with. Thus, companies > like Proctor & Gamble actually have several brands of laundry > detergent "competing" with each other to increase the likelihood that > a customer will choose one of their brands. This is also why there are > so many "makes" of GM automobiles. I remember how, growing up, my > father would never fill up at any gas station except Mobile (a common > gas station chain in the eastern United States) because they had > "better gas", and, for a long time, I believed that. Does Mobile > really have better gas than their competitors? I doubt it. Did my dad > know that gas stations like Mobile routinely buy gas from other chains > that they're supposedly competing with? *That's* a good question. : ) > > What first frustrated me about Linux is actually the main reason for > its popularity: the hundreds of distributions of the exact same > operating system with mostly the exact same software, differing only > by mostly trivial characteristics like the choice of desktop > environment or package management system, which applications are > included by default and in the repositories, the default theme of the > user interface, and the wallpaper. And users will actually argue over > which is better. Even though it's possible to use Red Hat packages and > repositories to maintain a live "Debian" system, for example. Ubuntu > is a particularly "fashionable" distribution at the moment. Flashy? > Certainly. Accessible? Sure. I always keep an Xubuntu Live CD on hand > for when I just want a graphical operating system up and working > quickly. But as a primary operating system, is it that much better > than mature distributions like Fedora? Not really. Do its annoying > design limitations in the name of "accessibility" and immaturity piss > me off? Very quickly. Its popularity is mainly because of those > trivial secondary characteristics, i.e. it's "cool". > > Experienced Linux users know that Linux is Linux is Linux, but many > don't seem to know that Unix is Unix is Unix, and Linux is just > another Unix*. This is a great place to start talking about Unix. > Those powerful command lines in "Linux" that they love so much? They > work the same on *any* UNIX-like system. Shell scripts? Configurable > window managers? Desktop environments? Apache? Postgre? MySQL? PHP? > All identical. So many of the things people love about "Linux" are > really characteristics of UNIX-like systems. Talk about why Unix is so > great. Explain that Linux is not Unix. Then explain why FreeBSD is > better than Linux. If that doesn't work, maybe we could make a hundred > different distributions of wallpaper and desktop themes, to ease the > transition a little bit? ; ) > > I would also caution against going after Windows users too > aggressively. FreeBSD is for users who can handle a UNIX-like > operating systems. Ample documentation and an approachable community > do not change the fact that any UNIX-like system, be it Linux, > FreeBSD, or any other, is considerably more difficult to learn and > less accessible than a Windows system. Since about 99% of computer > users have no computer literacy at all, there are many people for whom > *any* Unix system is completely inappropriate. The emergence of > quality free software for Windows (particularly GPL-licensed software; > the GPL is a much more useful license for Windows software than for > Unix) can help close the functional gap for Windows users and perhaps > ease the transition, as it did for me. > > Really, it's just about the software. > > - Jonathan > > > _____ > *UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group, all rights > reserved, blah blah blah, but Unix is not. "Unix" is a genericized > ex-trademark describing any UNIX-like opearting system, as well as the > general characteristics of such a system. Capitalization matters. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:50:34 +1000 > From: Norberto Meijome > Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <20080728145034.575b4c1f@ayiin> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:15:49 -0400 > J.C. wrote: > >> I would also caution against going after Windows users too >> aggressively. FreeBSD is for users who can handle a UNIX-like >> operating systems. Ample documentation and an approachable community >> do not change the fact that any UNIX-like system, be it Linux, >> FreeBSD, or any other, is considerably more difficult to learn and >> less accessible than a Windows system. > > "Linux is for people who hate Windows, BSD is for people who love UNIX." > > B > > _________________________ > {Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome > > "That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex > tasks impossible." > John William Chambless > > I speak for myself, not my employer. Contents may be hot. Slippery when > wet. Reading disclaimers makes you go blind. Writing them is worse. You > have been Warned. > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 > ************************************************ > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 29 05:13:00 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96571065670 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:13:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: from mail.rubicom.hu (mail.rubicom.hu [89.147.80.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6105F8FC16 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:13:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail.rubicom.hu) by mail.rubicom.hu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KNKxb-0003xK-Fs for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:07:54 +0200 Received: from ip5993549e.rubicom.hu ([89.147.84.158] helo=baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx) by mail.rubicom.hu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KNKxb-0003wL-2o for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:07:51 +0200 Received: from baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m6S57o91002180 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:07:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: (from sziszi@localhost) by baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m6S57oL2002179 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:07:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx: sziszi set sender to sziszi@bsd.hu using -f Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:07:50 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080728050750.GA1920@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> References: <4889A0ED.9000103@apriliaforum.net> <20080727222339.1357308e@ayiin> <818ba6630807271515u2eaa4ddbqa883c5c380529843@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <818ba6630807271515u2eaa4ddbqa883c5c380529843@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: Re: FreeBSD News blog X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:13:00 -0000 On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 06:15:49PM -0400, J.C. wrote: > Really, it's just about the software. I could not agree more. :-) Oh, and don't forget that BSD licensed software is also Free Software, so if you want that, you got that. It is fun to point this fact out to some "Linux evangelists" and see the expression on their face. But to be fair, many Linux users *are* knowledgeable and value BSD systems because of their technical merits. At least I have met many such users. This does not mean that they are using it, but that's ok. If you get used to a particular tool, you are most productive with that tool. I also have trouble understanding some aspects of Linux sysadmin work at times when I have to do something quickly, or even some aspects of Net/OpenBSD since I have been a FreeBSD user for the last 9 years, so I am most productive with (Free)BSD. -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Budapest Hungary From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 29 05:21:17 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB9E106567B for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:21:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: from mail.rubicom.hu (mail.rubicom.hu [89.147.80.28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84F28FC08 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:21:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail.rubicom.hu) by mail.rubicom.hu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KNhe7-0001sX-JC for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:21:15 +0200 Received: from ip5993549e.rubicom.hu ([89.147.84.158] helo=baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx) by mail.rubicom.hu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KNhdu-0001nl-73 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:21:02 +0200 Received: from baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m6T5L10C002445 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:21:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) Received: (from sziszi@localhost) by baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m6T5L1n2002444 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:21:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sziszi@bsd.hu) X-Authentication-Warning: baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx: sziszi set sender to sziszi@bsd.hu using -f Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:21:01 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:21:17 -0000 On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 08:02:23PM +0200, Salvatore Albanese wrote: > We must remind that apple experimented with UNIX many years ago and now use > the Darwin distro for MAC OS X. This is a big statement! Imagine a BSD > distro that is so easy even windows users find it confortable. 20% of the > windows market moved to MAC OX S in that last 18 months. While I agree that decent, and enthusiastic (but not zealot) advocacy is a good thing, I think it is very important to say the truth. It is just too frequently that I here statements that essentially say: "MacOS X is just FreeBSD with an Apple GUI on it". That's just not true. The Darwin kernel is a Mach kernel (something that the BSDs do not have and did not have with the exception of the failed attempt xMach) which is very different from the BSD kernel. Darwin only implements some (many) APIs and borrows some code from the BSDs (like the network code, but boy, there is hardly an OS that does not have BSD-derived TCP/IP code somewhere in it) and contains userland applications that were ported from the BSDs. But that does not make it a BSD system. Otherwise, it would be truly difficult to explain why it took so long for FreeBSD to grow suport for the PPC arch, when Darwin was already out there :-) If you want to brag about FreeBSD technology used in a mainstream product, then by all means mention Firefox 3, because that is already quite impressive. -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Budapest Hungary From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 29 06:36:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C29106566B for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:36:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl (smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl [194.109.24.34]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66FA8FC12 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (freebie.xs4all.nl [82.95.250.254]) by smtp-vbr14.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m6T6Njbo093410; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:23:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: from freebie.xs4all.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.14.2/8.13.3) with ESMTP id m6T6NjPO086780; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:23:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb@freebie.xs4all.nl) Received: (from wb@localhost) by freebie.xs4all.nl (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id m6T6NjSW086779; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:23:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wb) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:23:44 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Szilveszter Adam Message-ID: <20080729062344.GA86638@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:36:47 -0000 Quoting Szilveszter Adam, who wrote on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 07:21:01AM +0200 .. > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 08:02:23PM +0200, Salvatore Albanese wrote: > > We must remind that apple experimented with UNIX many years ago and now use > > the Darwin distro for MAC OS X. This is a big statement! Imagine a BSD > > distro that is so easy even windows users find it confortable. 20% of the > > windows market moved to MAC OX S in that last 18 months. > > While I agree that decent, and enthusiastic (but not zealot) advocacy is > a good thing, I think it is very important to say the truth. > > It is just too frequently that I here statements that essentially say: > "MacOS X is just FreeBSD with an Apple GUI on it". That's just not true. > The Darwin kernel is a Mach kernel (something that the BSDs do not have > and did not have with the exception of the failed attempt xMach) which Well, DEC OSF/1 also heavily built on Mach. -- Wilko Bulte wilko@FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 30 15:05:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058F91065672 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:05:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-advocacy@m.gmane.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74438FC0C for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:05:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-advocacy@m.gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KOCSE-0000Dt-Pp for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:15:02 +0000 Received: from mkb-128-158-209-82.3.cust.bredband2.com ([82.209.128.158]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:15:02 +0000 Received: from mc by mkb-128-158-209-82.3.cust.bredband2.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:15:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Michael Widerkrantz Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:24:06 +0200 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 17 Message-ID: <863alrmx7t.fsf@tim.hack.org> References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mkb-128-158-209-82.3.cust.bredband2.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1p7lx5VXF0A52Z6xBDTh07K3D+A= Sender: news Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:05:22 -0000 Szilveszter Adam writes: > If you want to brag about FreeBSD technology used in a mainstream > product, then by all means mention Firefox 3, because that is already > quite impressive. Why Firefox? It's a user land application. I'm sure it's been ported to FreeBSD, but does that tell anyone that FreeBSD is good? I would suggest mentioning that companies such as Juniper and Network Applications use FreeBSD as their embedded OS. At least with some people (sysadmins and network people), that will make them look again at FreeBSD. -- M.C. Widerkrantz http://hack.org/mc/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 30 15:52:25 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5881065677 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:52:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854AA8FC0C for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:52:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1477A2090; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:52:23 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Michael Widerkrantz References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> <863alrmx7t.fsf@tim.hack.org> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:52:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <863alrmx7t.fsf@tim.hack.org> (Michael Widerkrantz's message of "Wed\, 30 Jul 2008 13\:24\:06 +0200") Message-ID: <86fxprtlmw.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:52:25 -0000 Michael Widerkrantz writes: > Szilveszter Adam writes: > > If you want to brag about FreeBSD technology used in a mainstream > > product, then by all means mention Firefox 3, because that is already > > quite impressive. > Why Firefox? It's a user land application. I'm sure it's been ported > to FreeBSD, but does that tell anyone that FreeBSD is good? Firefox 3 uses FreeBSD's memory allocator (jemalloc) on all platforms, instead of the one provided by the operating system. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 30 16:20:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF64106568A for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:20:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Michel.Lecocq@lipn.univ-paris13.fr) Received: from mail.lipn.univ-paris13.fr (mail.lipn.univ-paris13.fr [194.254.163.24]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB918FC1D for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:20:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Michel.Lecocq@lipn.univ-paris13.fr) Received: from [192.168.66.33] (bdv75-2-81-57-250-158.fbx.proxad.net [81.57.250.158]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: lecocq@lipn.univ-paris13.fr) by mail.lipn.univ-paris13.fr (sendmail 8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id 1563B22E26 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:00:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4890902A.2030807@lipn.univ-paris13.fr> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:00:42 +0200 From: Le Cocq Michel User-Agent: Mozilla-Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (X11/20080724) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: (no subject) X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:20:21 -0000 -- Michel Le Cocq Administrateur Système Réseau Sécurité Université Paris XIII | Laga-Lipn From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 30 17:32:38 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CAE91065670 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:32:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786178FC20 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:32:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m6UHWMiw026474; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:32:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:19:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> <863alrmx7t.fsf@tim.hack.org> In-Reply-To: <863alrmx7t.fsf@tim.hack.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200807301119.51517.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:32:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.1/7891/Wed Jul 30 06:03:53 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Michael Widerkrantz Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:32:38 -0000 On Wednesday 30 July 2008 07:24:06 am Michael Widerkrantz wrote: > Szilveszter Adam writes: > > > If you want to brag about FreeBSD technology used in a mainstream > > product, then by all means mention Firefox 3, because that is already > > quite impressive. > > Why Firefox? It's a user land application. I'm sure it's been ported > to FreeBSD, but does that tell anyone that FreeBSD is good? Firefox 3 uses the malloc from FreeBSD 7.x for its memory allocator even on Windows, OS X, and Linux. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Aug 2 11:50:31 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F775106567A for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:50:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7D18FC1F for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:50:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7018746B86; Sat, 2 Aug 2008 07:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 12:31:18 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Szilveszter Adam In-Reply-To: <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> Message-ID: <20080802122138.T4086@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080728120008.0BBF710656C5@hub.freebsd.org> <02c801c8f0dc$16caf410$0100010a@oemspc03> <20080729052101.GB1995@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 248, Issue 1 X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:50:31 -0000 On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Szilveszter Adam wrote: > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 08:02:23PM +0200, Salvatore Albanese wrote: >> We must remind that apple experimented with UNIX many years ago and now use >> the Darwin distro for MAC OS X. This is a big statement! Imagine a BSD >> distro that is so easy even windows users find it confortable. 20% of the >> windows market moved to MAC OX S in that last 18 months. > > While I agree that decent, and enthusiastic (but not zealot) advocacy is a > good thing, I think it is very important to say the truth. > > It is just too frequently that I here statements that essentially say: > "MacOS X is just FreeBSD with an Apple GUI on it". That's just not true. The > Darwin kernel is a Mach kernel (something that the BSDs do not have and did > not have with the exception of the failed attempt xMach) which is very > different from the BSD kernel. Darwin only implements some (many) APIs and > borrows some code from the BSDs (like the network code, but boy, there is > hardly an OS that does not have BSD-derived TCP/IP code somewhere in it) and > contains userland applications that were ported from the BSDs. But that does > not make it a BSD system. Otherwise, it would be truly difficult to explain > why it took so long for FreeBSD to grow suport for the PPC arch, when Darwin > was already out there :-) I'd be a bit cautious about saying XNU is a Mach kernel. XNU is not a microkernel, but it contains a lot more Mach code than FreeBSD does. However, XNU contains massive amounts of FreeBSD code, including countless IPC models, security parts, VFS, network stack, distributed file systems, etc. Saying that "Mac OS X is just FreeBSD with an Apple GUI" is certainly false on face value, but it's not correct to say that the kernel isn't in significant part FreeBSD-derived. Here's what I find in my most recent XNU kernel source drop from Apple: 21M of code labeled explicitly as BSD, largely from FreeBSD but heavily modified. 16M of code labeled explicitly as Mach, largely from OSF Mach, but heavily modified. 676K of code labeled explicitly as Security, actually the TrustedBSD MAC Framework from FreeBSD, with modifications. 2.7M of device driver code in the IOKit tree, mostly from Apple. 2M of "libkern" -- mostly Apple code (C++ parts for IOKit) and zlib. And then some loose ends, such as libsyscall, which is really userspace code but stored in the kernel source tree, configuration files, GDB macros, etc. The above is just the XNU drop, so excludes the large number of additional loadable kernel extensions (kexts), which include a lot of device drivers (largely Apple and vendor code), but also things like smbfs (pretty much verbatim FreeBSD code). > If you want to brag about FreeBSD technology used in a mainstream product, > then by all means mention Firefox 3, because that is already quite > impressive. This is true, but if you measure the proportion of Firefox code that is FreeBSD vs the proportion of XNU code that is FreeBSD, we definitely have more of a showing in XNU, making up a significant part of the product :-). One shouldn't underestimate Apple's work to improve our code and produce new facilities, some of which has come back to FreeBSD, but likewise they gained a lot by using all that FreeBSD code, not to mention hiring a lot of FreeBSD developers to work on the product. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge