From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 14 05:44:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD8A16A418 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 05:44:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mx1.highperformance.net (dsl081-163-122.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.163.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E9813C4DB for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 05:44:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from w16.stradamotorsports.com (w16.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.16]) by mx1.highperformance.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0E5iSSX021665; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Message-ID: <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:44:28 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" , rees@umich.edu, openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, port-freebsd@openafs.org References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> In-Reply-To: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=2.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=failed version=3.1.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.6 (2006-10-03) on s4.stradamotorsports.com Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, rra@stanford.edu, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, matt@linuxbox.com Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 05:44:57 -0000 Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Does anyone know if there is any serious work being done to get AFS working > under FreeBSD? I have a large project that I'm working on that AFS (or > something equivalent) would be *very* useful for, but we're trying to keep it > as FreeBSD-pure as possible ... Yes. Please get in touch with any of the people CC'ed in this list. I believe Matt Benjamin is the one who is actually getting serious on this project. Patches were even mentioned in a recent email. I recall Jim Rees is knowledgeable on AFS. I also think one Derrick J. Brashear was interested/knowledgeable too, but I don't have his address handy. If I misrepesented anyone please feel free to correct me. Matt, if you do not know Marc, look up Postgresql. Marc is the port maintainer for postgresql as well as a postgres developer. (iirc) Me, I am just a user who put together an ugly, ugly little FreeBSD port a long time ago in the hope that it would inspire some people who were qualified to do real work to pick it up and run with it. There are a couple mailing lists suitable for FreeBSD porting discussions. One is run by the OpenAFS people and the other is run by FreeBSD people. Sorry for the spam and cross posts. It seems like the interest in OpenAFS on FreeBSD is building. I hope that this message will put the right people in touch with each other and that maybe a concerted effort to port OpenAFS to FreeBSD will arise. Later, Jason From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 14 14:34:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBFD16A479 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:34:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6836213C4EA for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:34:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784FD46B51; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:23:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:23:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:01:45 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:34:14 -0000 On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >> Does anyone know if there is any serious work being done to get AFS working >> under FreeBSD? I have a large project that I'm working on that AFS (or >> something equivalent) would be *very* useful for, but we're trying to keep >> it as FreeBSD-pure as possible ... > > Yes. Please get in touch with any of the people CC'ed in this list. I > believe Matt Benjamin is the one who is actually getting serious on this > project. Patches were even mentioned in a recent email. I recall Jim Rees > is knowledgeable on AFS. I also think one Derrick J. Brashear was > interested/knowledgeable too, but I don't have his address handy. If I > misrepesented anyone please feel free to correct me. > > Matt, if you do not know Marc, look up Postgresql. Marc is the port > maintainer for postgresql as well as a postgres developer. (iirc) > > Me, I am just a user who put together an ugly, ugly little FreeBSD port a > long time ago in the hope that it would inspire some people who were > qualified to do real work to pick it up and run with it. > > There are a couple mailing lists suitable for FreeBSD porting discussions. > One is run by the OpenAFS people and the other is run by FreeBSD people. > > Sorry for the spam and cross posts. It seems like the interest in OpenAFS on > FreeBSD is building. I hope that this message will put the right people in > touch with each other and that maybe a concerted effort to port OpenAFS to > FreeBSD will arise. Arla, which is just an AFS client, runs on some versions of FreeBSD, although typically not really recent ones. I spent a little time this summer looking at getting it updated to 7, but ran out of time. I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into the base system, as otherwise any AFS port (be it Arla, OpenAFS, etc) will constantly be falling behind and breaking as the base tree moves forward. Our VFS tends to change with moderate speed, and having it in the base tree will allow it to be updated as part of regular changes to our KPI by the author of the changes, rather than watching more and more ifdefs appear in a third-party tree. I'm happy to lend a hand with this, but I don't have the time (apparently) to drive a port forward myself right now. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 14 15:54:46 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D239B16A418; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:54:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mx1.highperformance.net (dsl081-163-122.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.163.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893B113C457; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:54:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from w16.stradamotorsports.com (w16.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.16]) by mx1.highperformance.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0EFsY2e024760; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:54:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Message-ID: <478B85BB.8000707@highperformance.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:54:35 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=2.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=failed version=3.1.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.6 (2006-10-03) on s4.stradamotorsports.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:23:07 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:54:47 -0000 For those of you who haven't seen this. Here is my rudimentary port. It is nothing more than the FreeBSD parts wrapped around the OpenAFS source. I think I was working on version 5 of FreeBSD but I don't recall for sure. This was version OpenAFS 1.4.2. It compiled. The kernel module loaded. I was able to get tokens using the system heimdal. I even got a directory listing via the client. Attempting to manipulate files resulted in an immediate panic. http://www.stradamotorsports.com/~jcw/openafs/ I would advise those who are interested to discuss and choose a mailing list for continuing the effort. We are currently writing four different lists in this thread. I'll test whatever you guys come up with. I'll be running FreeBSD-6.3 real soon now. Later, Jason From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jan 14 16:47:33 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED7816A419 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:47:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (keira.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 51B8F13C4F3 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:47:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 23431 invoked by uid 2001); 14 Jan 2008 16:20:51 -0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:20:51 -0600 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: "Marc G. Fournier" Message-ID: <20080114162051.GA23327@keira.kiwi-computer.com> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:47:34 -0000 > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > Does anyone know if there is any serious work being done to get AFS > > working under FreeBSD? I have a large project that I'm working on that > >AFS (or something equivalent) would be *very* useful for, but we're trying > >to keep it as FreeBSD-pure as possible ... Recent work has been done with arla to work with FreeBSD 6.x. See this thread: https://lists.stacken.kth.se/pipermail/arla-drinkers/2008-January/004158.html -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 15 04:37:53 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB85B16A417; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:37:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@linuxbox.com) Received: from aa.linuxbox.com (aa.linuxbox.com [134.215.213.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2D813C44B; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:37:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@linuxbox.com) Received: from trosper.private.linuxbox.com (trosper.private.linuxbox.com [10.1.1.45]) by aa.linuxbox.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id m0F4QfOm005515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:26:51 -0500 Received: by trosper.private.linuxbox.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 7AB17D9A1DCA; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:26:41 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on trosper.private.linuxbox.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7 Received: from secant.private.linuxbox.com (unknown [10.1.1.217]) by trosper.private.linuxbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3631D9A1DC8; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:26:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:26:27 -0500 From: Matt Benjamin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (aa.linuxbox.com [10.1.1.1]); Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:27:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Jason C. Wells" , "Marc G. Fournier" , Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 04:37:54 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi guys (took a few locations off the cc, hope that's ok...), I think there's good support from the openafs side for this. Derrick is supportive. Jim is interested in seeing patches. (Openafs gatekeeper/elder folks.) I can commit some development time to it. I did some easy build cleanups for FreeBSD 7, and submitted them. If there's something formal we should be doing, let Derrick know. Matt - -- Matt Benjamin The Linux Box 206 South Fifth Ave. Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 http://linuxbox.com tel. 734-761-4689 fax. 734-769-8938 cel. 734-216-5309 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjDXyJiSUUSaRdSURCBA3AKCKe0dg83WVdGBTDfaHDYppnAVkKwCfesCB 31XJ2n+Xukn7dwt8e6R6GbY= =x5qW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 15 05:00:59 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A041316A41A; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:00:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mx1.highperformance.net (dsl081-163-122.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.163.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2249413C478; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:00:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from w16.stradamotorsports.com (w16.stradamotorsports.com [192.168.1.16]) by mx1.highperformance.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0F50pWU028750; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:00:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Message-ID: <478C3E05.7060307@highperformance.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:00:53 -0800 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Benjamin References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> In-Reply-To: <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=2.5 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=failed version=3.1.6 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.6 (2006-10-03) on s4.stradamotorsports.com Cc: rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:00:59 -0000 Matt Benjamin wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hi guys (took a few locations off the cc, hope that's ok...), I am pretty sure that the larger number of the people in this discussion are already subscribed to port-freebsd@openafs.org. No one piped up so I'll make a proposal. I invite the others to subscribe to port-freebsd@openafs.org and use it for porting efforts. Matt, it looks like your the one with the desire to work this in earnest. It also looks like some pretty capable people are speaking up about OpenAFS. I'm thrilled. If you can post a port or patches to a website on a regular basis I will gladly try to build them on regular basis. I'll help in my userly way. Later, Jason C. Wells From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 15 05:51:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33BC116A41B; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:51:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@linuxbox.com) Received: from aa.linuxbox.com (aa.linuxbox.com [134.215.213.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C0A13C4D1; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:51:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@linuxbox.com) Received: from trosper.private.linuxbox.com (trosper.private.linuxbox.com [10.1.1.45]) by aa.linuxbox.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id m0F5oKwE010709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:50:30 -0500 Received: by trosper.private.linuxbox.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 5CB42D9A1DD5; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:50:19 -0500 (EST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on trosper.private.linuxbox.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.1.7 Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown [10.8.0.6]) by trosper.private.linuxbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9462AD9A1DD3; Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:50:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <478C4994.50009@linuxbox.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:50:12 -0500 From: Matt Benjamin User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (X11/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> <478C3E05.7060307@highperformance.net> In-Reply-To: <478C3E05.7060307@highperformance.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (aa.linuxbox.com [10.1.1.1]); Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:51:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Marc G. Fournier" , Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:51:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Thanks, Jason. A lot of work has been done over the last several years, by Derrick, Jim, and others. I haven't worked with the freebsd port until recently, although I work on the cache mgr in general these last couple years. (Also, Derrick says, fixing kern/75710 will help him be more productive on freebsd. He sent a patch, and is grumpy it stalled out somewhere.) Thanks, Matt Jason C. Wells wrote: | Matt Benjamin wrote: |> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- |> Hash: SHA256 |> |> Hi guys (took a few locations off the cc, hope that's ok...), | | I am pretty sure that the larger number of the people in this discussion | are already subscribed to port-freebsd@openafs.org. No one piped up so | I'll make a proposal. I invite the others to subscribe to | port-freebsd@openafs.org and use it for porting efforts. | | Matt, it looks like your the one with the desire to work this in | earnest. It also looks like some pretty capable people are speaking up | about OpenAFS. I'm thrilled. | | If you can post a port or patches to a website on a regular basis I will | gladly try to build them on regular basis. I'll help in my userly way. | | Later, | Jason C. Wells - -- Matt Benjamin The Linux Box 206 South Fifth Ave. Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 http://linuxbox.com tel. 734-761-4689 fax. 734-769-8938 cel. 734-216-5309 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjEmUJiSUUSaRdSURCLEKAJ42fDHMKdgB/ei761Sb4dcovDSQWgCfdKC4 ohpzPgoCV5fkp86YJ88JhpA= =XC8o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 16 13:50:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FA716A419 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from candyshop999@gmail.com) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.226]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD3A13C4E8 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from candyshop999@gmail.com) Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id l8so182156nzf.13 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:50:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=6UlUhbWK7SGotZFrd+RrLDpe7vxHbNLOYRxh1zWeUpc=; b=nd+zQvl88J7XY1i2kwES4FTzTSDTYIO5m7RrQ3u/DrOPaeIT0bazmJnEgOQJB1C+zNtVqs51dAkzybUS+fjQpRGX6anK+NpsR3fMsMJoE4QpPZK7I4fiMPKnFU+/fP3Gy5g4FtS4FcoI9RvqAx7BlGvaLkNA3xQuPljsZtXXNx0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=nN+r0xhD+N2k61iiwcMKEM6d3oJriu0YesAiol5sYhd2DWwQdyHfhDSMtCURKDY+i+T2Hvy8xFXp343ik9VA9/TJWyJSUX9OGDHTqriNoM8CjKxxjSlr1SWD3GGMfU+pSTZe5B6/8F6g0Sz0p+eQZcc0UkBjaWl1Z7CrSRHFzg0= Received: by 10.110.26.10 with SMTP id 10mr184649tiz.54.1200491407511; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.156.8 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:50:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:50:07 +0200 From: "Super Star" To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Liba Cohn, What Type of Travel Insurance Fits You Best? X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:50:10 -0000 Liba Cohn, What Type of Travel Insurance Fits You Best? Liba Cohn Liba Lyustiger Lillian Sarah Lyustiger lillian sarah cohn sara lyustiger natalija lyustiger cohn lyustiger sarah lyustiger Before leaving for a trip many individuals will take great care in planning all aspects of their vacation. They will often carefully research their travel options and choose everything to make sure it fits within a scheduled itinerary so that nothing is missed. However, there are certain unexpected events that can happen on any trip which cannot be planned for. Unexpectedly your vacation may be ruined by severe illness, accidents, robbery, natural disaster or any other number of events. However, if you purchase travel insurance before leaving you will be able to deal with these situations without losing a lot of the money you invested in your trip. Consider the types of travel insurance available to you carefully so that you can get adequate coverage without having to pay for something you won?t need. Single Trip This form of travel insurance is ideal for those who don?t travel frequently since it provides coverage only for a specific trip. However, there are still many other policies available for those who don?t fit into this category. If you don?t need single trip coverage then your decision for travel insurance coverage can become a lot more difficult with the options you have to choose from. Annual The most convenient and cost effective option for those who take more than one trip each year is annual or multi-trip travel insurance. You should read the policy carefully when purchasing this type of travel insurance as some of these policies may have limitations on the trip length such as excluding trips over thirty days. There are some policies that may also exclude holiday travel. It is always important to read the fine print before purchasing any insurance policy. Family Family travel insurance is good for those who are traveling with kids or their parents. The benefits of this policy are that you don?t have to buy separate travel insurance policies for each member of the family since everyone is covered as whole. There are different premiums depending on the family travel insurance policy you are choosing. Some companies vary premiums based on the number of children covered on the policy, while other charge flat rates. Business Traveler Another travel insurance policy that assumes you travel several times a year is business travel insurance policies. The typical business traveler should choose this policy option. One feature of this policy that isn?t found in other insurance policies is the fact that should you have an emergency that prevents you from taking the trip; the company can replace you with another employee under the colleague replacement coverage. Shaldon Parker is a travel agent working for many travel insurance company. To discover how you can cover your travel expenses with wise investments, please visit: From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 16 20:33:11 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D2B16A494; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:33:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhutz@cmu.edu) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7F413C455; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:33:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhutz@cmu.edu) Received: from atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu (ATLANTIS.PC.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.216.110]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m0GImqOi012702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:48:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:48:52 -0500 From: Jeffrey Hutzelman To: Robert Watson , "Jason C. Wells" Message-ID: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> In-Reply-To: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:08:45 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, jhutz@cmu.edu Subject: Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:33:11 -0000 --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson wrote: > I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into > the base system. That may well be realistic for arla, though I believe there was a period for a while where the kernel/arlad interface was evolving to support features like chunking. I pay only superficial attention to arla-drinkers, so I don't know what the status of any of that is; for that, you'd have to ask someone who is actively involved in arla development (I believe there are some such people on this list). It is unlikely ever to happen for OpenAFS, in which virtually all of the cache manager code is in-kernel and most of it is cross-platform. Trying to pull the OpenAFS cache manager into the FreeBSD kernel would be equivalent to forking OpenAFS; what you'd get would work and would keep up with FreeBSD, but it would be unlikely to keep up with OpenAFS. The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't have to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It encourages bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main distribution, discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally doesn't scale. It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable external interfaces to the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you don't have the resources to do so given the relatively small number of external users, in which case you almost certainly also don't have the resources to keep on top of updates to something like OpenAFS. In the long run, I'm guessing that the OpenAFS cache manager evolves more quickly than FreeBSD's VFS interface, which makes pulling the CM into the kernel tree a losing battle. If you disagree, by all means fork that part of AFS (or get someone else to do so) and see what happens (AFS's user/kernel and RPC interfaces are both fairly stable, so forking just the kernel parts should be mostly feasible). -- Jeff From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 16 20:52:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D718716A419; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:52:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70ED613C478; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:52:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EB646C05; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:52:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:52:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Jeffrey Hutzelman In-Reply-To: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:27:35 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Jason C. Wells" , openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:52:57 -0000 On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > >> I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into >> the base system. > > That may well be realistic for arla, though I believe there was a period for > a while where the kernel/arlad interface was evolving to support features > like chunking. I pay only superficial attention to arla-drinkers, so I > don't know what the status of any of that is; for that, you'd have to ask > someone who is actively involved in arla development (I believe there are > some such people on this list). > > It is unlikely ever to happen for OpenAFS, in which virtually all of the > cache manager code is in-kernel and most of it is cross-platform. Trying to > pull the OpenAFS cache manager into the FreeBSD kernel would be equivalent > to forking OpenAFS; what you'd get would work and would keep up with > FreeBSD, but it would be unlikely to keep up with OpenAFS. I chatted with Darrick for a while on IM yesterday (or was it the day before) to try and get a better understanding of the OpenAFS parts, and now that I know a little more, agree. My primary experience until now has been with Arla, which has a very stable interface between its relatively static kernel module and the userspace cache manager, so the main on-going engineering for the kernel module is tracking changes in the FreeBSD VFS rather than tracking Arla changes. > The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't have > to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It encourages > bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main distribution, > discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally doesn't scale. > It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable external interfaces to > the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you don't have the resources > to do so given the relatively small number of external users, in which case > you almost certainly also don't have the resources to keep on top of updates > to something like OpenAFS. Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major release (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly significant changes between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). I expect to see further changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the locking-related ones have already started going in). The historic problem for Arla has been that instead of tracking these VFS changes as they are made, they had to catch up every once in a while. Normally that "every once in a while" has been at the point where a FreeBSD branch is coming to the end of support rather than when it is new and shiny. The result has been that Arla is pretty hard to use with FreeBSD as you either have to run a relatively old version of FreeBSD, or update the Arla kernel parts yourself (neither exciting prospects). In particular, if you are a FreeBSD kernel developer, you will never be running Arla as you are almost certainly running something on the development HEAD and not an aging branch. This leads to a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, in which FreeBSD developers never use AFS, and this almost certainly an obstacle to it getting much use in the wider FreeBSD community. If there's sufficient interest in the AFS community to create and maintain a port of OpenAFS to FreeBSD, I think that would be wonderful. However, in light of the fact that it hasn't really happened to date, I've been trying to think of ways to help support that community a bit better. In the case of Arla, there's a quite logical path: if we import the nnpfs kernel module (but not cache manager), then it will track FreeBSD development and almost certainly work with little or no trouble on new major releases, as sweeps to various KPIs will happen "for free". If that doesn't work with OpenAFS due to structural differences from Arla, that's a shame (because it is easy in the case of Arla), but life. So let's turn the question around: to get the OpenAFS client up and running on FreeBSD, do you have any technical requirements not yet met by FreeBSD, or is it really about finding someone willing to spend some time doing the bulk of the technical work and track bugs for a while? Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 16 23:48:54 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D36B16A417; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:48:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhutz@cmu.edu) Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu (MINBAR.FAC.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.185.161]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C833E13C467; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:48:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhutz@cmu.edu) Received: from minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu id aa12622; 16 Jan 2008 16:47 EST Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:47:14 -0500 (EST) From: Jeffrey Hutzelman X-X-Sender: To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:00:28 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, rees@umich.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Jason C. Wells" , openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:48:54 -0000 On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > > > The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't have > > to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It encourages > > bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main distribution, > > discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally doesn't scale. > > It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable external interfaces to > > the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you don't have the resources > > to do so given the relatively small number of external users, in which case > > you almost certainly also don't have the resources to keep on top of updates > > to something like OpenAFS. > > Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major release > (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly significant changes > between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). I expect to see further > changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the locking-related ones have already > started going in). Yup; that's a reasonable process. > The historic problem for Arla has been that instead of tracking these VFS > changes as they are made, they had to catch up every once in a while. Normally > that "every once in a while" has been at the point where a FreeBSD branch is > coming to the end of support rather than when it is new and shiny. Yes, that's a problem you're likely to run into unless you have a community of developers who are interested in keeping current versions working for their own use. For example, we tend to have relatively little trouble getting people to spend time making OpenAFS work on Linux or Solaris (sometimes we have trouble _getting_ it to work, but that's a different story). > In the case of > Arla, there's a quite logical path: if we import the nnpfs kernel module (but > not cache manager), then it will track FreeBSD development and almost > certainly work with little or no trouble on new major releases, as sweeps to > various KPIs will happen "for free". Yes. In fact, I think NetBSD has already done that. > So let's turn the question around: to get the OpenAFS client up and running on > FreeBSD, do you have any technical requirements not yet met by FreeBSD I don't think we know the answer to that... > , or is > it really about finding someone willing to spend some time doing the bulk of > the technical work and track bugs for a while? because this _is_ a significant part of the problem. So for starters, I think we're looking for someone who has some familiarity with OpenAFS and/or with FreeBSD's VFS layer, or thinks they can fake it, and who has cycles they're interested in spending on this. I'm sure such a person would be welcome on the openafs-devel list. -- Jeff From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 00:09:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C57516A418 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:09:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (keira.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 145AF13C4E3 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:09:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 54953 invoked by uid 2001); 17 Jan 2008 00:09:42 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:09:42 -0600 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: Jeffrey Hutzelman Message-ID: <20080117000942.GA54906@keira.kiwi-computer.com> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: rra@stanford.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Jason C. Wells" , openafs-devel@openafs.org Subject: Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:09:44 -0000 On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 01:48:52PM -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > > >I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into > >the base system. > That may well be realistic for arla, though I believe there was a period > for a while where the kernel/arlad interface was evolving to support > features like chunking. I pay only superficial attention to arla-drinkers, > so I don't know what the status of any of that is; for that, you'd have to > ask someone who is actively involved in arla development (I believe there > are some such people on this list). > > It is unlikely ever to happen for OpenAFS, in which virtually all of the > cache manager code is in-kernel and most of it is cross-platform. Trying > to pull the OpenAFS cache manager into the FreeBSD kernel would be > equivalent to forking OpenAFS; what you'd get would work and would keep up > with FreeBSD, but it would be unlikely to keep up with OpenAFS. > > The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't > have to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It > encourages bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main > distribution, discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally > doesn't scale. It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable > external interfaces to the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you > don't have the resources to do so given the relatively small number of > external users, in which case you almost certainly also don't have the > resources to keep on top of updates to something like OpenAFS. > > In the long run, I'm guessing that the OpenAFS cache manager evolves more > quickly than FreeBSD's VFS interface, which makes pulling the CM into the > kernel tree a losing battle. If you disagree, by all means fork that part > of AFS (or get someone else to do so) and see what happens (AFS's > user/kernel and RPC interfaces are both fairly stable, so forking just the > kernel parts should be mostly feasible). > > -- Jeff > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-fs@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fs > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-fs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 00:18:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A218016A420 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:18:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: from kiwi-computer.com (keira.kiwi-computer.com [63.224.10.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 230F113C45B for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:18:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rick@kiwi-computer.com) Received: (qmail 55027 invoked by uid 2001); 17 Jan 2008 00:18:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:18:07 -0600 From: "Rick C. Petty" To: Jeffrey Hutzelman Message-ID: <20080117001807.GB54906@keira.kiwi-computer.com> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: rra@stanford.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson , matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.org, "Jason C. Wells" , openafs-devel@openafs.org Subject: Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: rick-freebsd@kiwi-computer.com List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:18:08 -0000 *** Please ignore my previous unedited response *** > --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > > >I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into > >the base system. I'm not sure how compatible the AFS client is with FreeBSD VFS. I looked into doing this at one time, but getting Arla to work was a much shorter path. I certainly would welcome any effort; it would give admins a choice between AFS clients. I believe the problem in the past with AFS clients has been the lack of developer time committed to maintaining the clients in the long term. Certainly it doesn't help to have major VFS rework so often as FreeBSD has had... I submitted numerous patches to Arla just to get it to compile on FreeBSD 6.x, and now we're about to release 7.0 and Arla just recently works on 6. It would also help if there was documentation on how to migrate code away from deprecated VFS calls. IIRC, the 5.x/6.0 VFS changes broke a lot of things and yet I still can't find any documentation aside from reading the diffs and guesswork. -- Rick C. Petty From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 08:17:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D495516A417 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from williamromsay@gmail.com) Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com (rv-out-0910.google.com [209.85.198.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8DDC13C4F2 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from williamromsay@gmail.com) Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id l15so512459rvb.43 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:17:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=FZcooZg80RzwEDZfd4qoRUp1x/0gbaZvnC3M2ekkYBU=; b=Xd40GFW755TzdsH4qQEtcSI6A5BjQCbUYZ0Y6tMxlkSrH3GUJJZR0+0w4AMRLIyI+oaPlimmstR8ADppsPJ/bdJ53LfXHXpcYj+v04BPL3gidtwRzx7+b6TIu606wVskJw0EWsZEJtOIQc4t3U8mKRdco9TlEN9/acNh9PxGUmA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=SykVtNCbRJifn31UGyhNTJiD5fNDUH1ATRIWrfYw6LHLS8q+CrzBG0VTbUB5YsXBWYkuRBr8HRkDjTRHr6E+yT8mhfB7+7gxn5Zx+DUpV7ph4CmK+6uMTJVCCaz3Zn2Osf4Akma3CPv1F0TTc0lcCPYIIMRxZdIzp2SXAVEZBYc= Received: by 10.140.82.38 with SMTP id f38mr1257878rvb.27.1200556188945; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.170.11 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:49:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <9e338f8f0801162349o7a65e94t7f67840da2f3e212@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:49:48 +0200 From: "william romsay" To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Liba Cohn, Travel Insurance FAQ X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:17:47 -0000 Liba Cohn, Travel Insurance FAQ Liba Cohn Liba Lyustiger Lillian Sarah Lyustiger lillian sarah cohn sara lyustiger natalija lyustiger cohn lyustiger sarah lyustiger Travel Insurance is an essential part of any trip and is something that should not be put aside. Most soon-to-be travelers usually have heard about travel insurance, but might not know the specific reasons why they need travel insurance. This is an important article about frequently asked questions for travel insurance. This article also provides a link for further reading about travel insurance. What is travel insurance protection? Travel insurance is a type of insurance that covers you financial for any losses or illness that may unfortunate occur while you is on your trip. Travel insurance can be bought for international or national (within your country) trips. Why should I buy travel insurance? Since travel insurance protects you while traveling, this will help and provide the necessary protection you will need in the occurrence of a unfortunate event. Any individual traveling anywhere without travel insurance will be in a dangerous situation if an accident occur. What is the coverage for travel insurance? Travel insurance should provide coverage for medical cost, transportation to a medical facility, and reimburse you for certain or some nonrefundable costs due to a interrupted trip, and financial loss of funds. How much does travel insurance cost? How much the cost of your travel insurance will be depends on your insurance company provider and their policy. The cost of travel insurance usually will range up to 12 percent of the cost of your vacation/trip. Is travel insurance really important and how many people actually get paid for their claims? Travel insurance is highly recommended, there are usually about 10% of people who file claims. Sometimes some travelers make have taken a overly expensive trip that they would have to pay out of their own money if they have not bought travel insurance. What is the medical care coverage? When there is a case of illness or serious injury, medical transportation to an appropriate medical facility, and medical treatment will be covered. You should also have coverage for if it is deem necessary to bring you back home. Does travel insurance cover business trips? This will depend on the insurance company. Most insurance companies will provide travel insurance for a business trip, but the coverage may be separate from the standard coverage. How long will travel insurance provide coverage for me? You can often buy travel insurance starting from as little as two weeks, up to a year. Different insurance companies may vary with their service of coverage. When is the best time to buy travel insurance coverage? The best time to buy travel insurance is as soon as possible before you go on your trip or vacation. You want your travel insurance active during your whole trip. What will happen if my money is lost or stolen? If you can not receive traveler checks replacements many insurance companies provide a service where a travel agent can arrange a money transfer or traveler check for you to receive. You will have to ask more about this to your travel insurance provider. From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 17:22:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376E216A417 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E9513C461 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0HHE4WT001465; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:14:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <478F8CDC.8080503@samsco.org> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:14:04 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Macklem References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:14:04 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.4 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, rra@stanford.edu Subject: Re: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:16 -0000 Rick Macklem wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > [good stuff snipped] >> >> Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major >> release (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly >> significant changes between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). >> I expect to see further changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the >> locking-related ones have already started going in). >> > This is loosely related to both the OpenAFS thread and the Mac OS X ZFS > port thread, so I thought I'd ask... > > Has anyone considered trying to bring the FreeBSD VFS KPI (and others, for > that matter) closed to the Darwin/Mac OS X ones? The Apple folks made > quite dramatic changes to their VFS when going from Panther (very FreeBSD > like) to Tiger, but seemed to have stabilized, at least for Leopard. It > just seems that using the Mac OS X KPIs might leverage some work being > done on both sides? (I don't know if there is an OpenAFS port to Mac OS X > or interest in one, but I would think there would be a use for one, if it > existed?) > > Although I'm far from an expert on the Mac OS X VFS (when I ported to it, > I just cribbed the code and it worked:-), it seems that they pretty well > got rid of the concept of a vnode-lock. If the underlying file system > isn't SMP safe, it can put a lock on the subsystem at the VFS call. > (I think it optionally does a global lock or a uses an smp lock in the > vnode, but don't quote me on this. My code currently runs with the > thread-safe flag false in the vfs_conf structure entry, which enables > the automagic locking.) > Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. You're not the first to suggest the vnode locking move out of VFS and into the filesystems. I think that the work it would take to adapt the existing filesystems to this design would be far less than the ongoing work by everyone to fight the old design (both in FreeBSD proper and in companies that do their own custom filesystems in FreeBSD), but it does come at a cost of making things like nullfs much harder, if not nearly impossible. I wish I had time to work on something like this, but I encourage others to look into it and experiment. Scott From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 17:22:21 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4F816A417; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from moe.cs.uoguelph.ca (moe.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.94.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4839E13C46B; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca (muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.91.102]) by moe.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0HHMGu9012974; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:22:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (rmacklem@localhost) by muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m0HHPPf00119; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:25:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca: rmacklem owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:25:25 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Macklem X-X-Sender: rmacklem@muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca To: Scott Long In-Reply-To: <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> Message-ID: References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 131.104.94.198 Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, openafs-devel@openafs.org, port-freebsd@openafs.org Subject: Re: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:21 -0000 On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Scott Long wrote: > > Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking > woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. Yes, I didn't mention Solaris (because I've never looked at it), but being able to easily port file system code from OpenSolaris sounds like it might be a big win. ZFS is an obvious example, but there is also stuff like pNFS in the pipe that would be nice. (I'm going to try and get my nfsv4 code into FreeBSD, but it will only be nfsv4.0 and I have no urge to do 4.1/pNFS.) And others mentioned that there is quite a bit of momentum w.r.t. OpenAFS in Solaris. rick From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 17:22:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6E416A41A; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DAB13C46A; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0HHAAAv001430; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:10:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:10:10 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Macklem References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:10:10 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.4 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:39:15 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, Robert Watson , matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, "Jason C. Wells" , openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jeffrey Hutzelman Subject: Re: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:22:19 -0000 Rick Macklem wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > [good stuff snipped] >> >> Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major >> release (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly >> significant changes between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). >> I expect to see further changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the >> locking-related ones have already started going in). >> > This is loosely related to both the OpenAFS thread and the Mac OS X ZFS > port thread, so I thought I'd ask... > > Has anyone considered trying to bring the FreeBSD VFS KPI (and others, for > that matter) closed to the Darwin/Mac OS X ones? The Apple folks made > quite dramatic changes to their VFS when going from Panther (very FreeBSD > like) to Tiger, but seemed to have stabilized, at least for Leopard. It > just seems that using the Mac OS X KPIs might leverage some work being > done on both sides? (I don't know if there is an OpenAFS port to Mac OS X > or interest in one, but I would think there would be a use for one, if it > existed?) > > Although I'm far from an expert on the Mac OS X VFS (when I ported to it, > I just cribbed the code and it worked:-), it seems that they pretty well > got rid of the concept of a vnode-lock. If the underlying file system > isn't SMP safe, it can put a lock on the subsystem at the VFS call. > (I think it optionally does a global lock or a uses an smp lock in the > vnode, but don't quote me on this. My code currently runs with the > thread-safe flag false in the vfs_conf structure entry, which enables > the automagic locking.) > Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. You're not the first to suggest the vnode locking move out of VFS and into the filesystems. I think that the work it would take to adapt the existing filesystems to this design would be far less than the ongoing work by everyone to fight the old design (both in FreeBSD proper and in companies that do their own custom filesystems in FreeBSD), but it does come at a cost of making things like nullfs much harder, if not nearly impossible. I wish I had time to work on something like this, but I encourage others to look into it and experiment. Scott From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 17:58:12 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD90516A419; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:58:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from pooker.samsco.org (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943C113C46B; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:58:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Received: from phobos.samsco.home (phobos.samsco.home [192.168.254.11]) (authenticated bits=0) by pooker.samsco.org (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m0HHw8jB001680; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:58:09 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from scottl@samsco.org) Message-ID: <478F9730.7040204@samsco.org> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:58:08 -0700 From: Scott Long User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.11) Gecko/20071128 SeaMonkey/1.1.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Macklem References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (pooker.samsco.org [168.103.85.57]); Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:58:09 -0700 (MST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.4 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on pooker.samsco.org Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, openafs-devel@openafs.org, port-freebsd@openafs.org Subject: Re: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:58:13 -0000 Rick Macklem wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Scott Long wrote: > >> >> Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking >> woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. > Yes, I didn't mention Solaris (because I've never looked at it), but > being able to easily port file system code from OpenSolaris sounds like > it might be a big win. ZFS is an obvious example, but there is also > stuff like pNFS in the pipe that would be nice. (I'm going to try and > get my nfsv4 code into FreeBSD, but it will only be nfsv4.0 and I have > no urge to do 4.1/pNFS.) And others mentioned that there is quite a bit > of momentum w.r.t. OpenAFS in Solaris. > > rick > It's not just about portability, though. I know that some will argue with me on this, but the current VFS API is prohibitively difficult to use properly if you're trying to write, port, or debug a filesystem. You have to worry about interactions between vnode locks, vnode interlocks, and mount locks even before you start locking your own filesystem-private structures. Vectors like VOP_RECLAIM are a delicate and unforgiving minefield. Gaining better portability would of course be a big win, but an even bigger win would be gaining the ability of mere mortal programmers to understand and get involved in filesystems in FreeBSD. Scott From owner-freebsd-afs@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 17 19:52:13 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5875316A507; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:52:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.94.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F08C13C474; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:52:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca (muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca [131.104.91.102]) by ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m0HGZofS012317; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:35:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (rmacklem@localhost) by muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca (8.11.7p3+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id m0HGcwT22995; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:38:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca: rmacklem owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:38:58 -0500 (EST) From: Rick Macklem X-X-Sender: rmacklem@muncher.cs.uoguelph.ca To: Robert Watson In-Reply-To: <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 131.104.94.206 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:02:03 +0000 Cc: rra@stanford.edu, port-freebsd@openafs.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, matt@linuxbox.com, freebsd-afs@freebsd.org, "Jason C. Wells" , openafs-devel@openafs.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Jeffrey Hutzelman Subject: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... X-BeenThere: freebsd-afs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: The Andrew File System and FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:52:13 -0000 On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: [good stuff snipped] > > Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major release > (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly significant changes > between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). I expect to see further > changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the locking-related ones have already > started going in). > This is loosely related to both the OpenAFS thread and the Mac OS X ZFS port thread, so I thought I'd ask... Has anyone considered trying to bring the FreeBSD VFS KPI (and others, for that matter) closed to the Darwin/Mac OS X ones? The Apple folks made quite dramatic changes to their VFS when going from Panther (very FreeBSD like) to Tiger, but seemed to have stabilized, at least for Leopard. It just seems that using the Mac OS X KPIs might leverage some work being done on both sides? (I don't know if there is an OpenAFS port to Mac OS X or interest in one, but I would think there would be a use for one, if it existed?) Although I'm far from an expert on the Mac OS X VFS (when I ported to it, I just cribbed the code and it worked:-), it seems that they pretty well got rid of the concept of a vnode-lock. If the underlying file system isn't SMP safe, it can put a lock on the subsystem at the VFS call. (I think it optionally does a global lock or a uses an smp lock in the vnode, but don't quote me on this. My code currently runs with the thread-safe flag false in the vfs_conf structure entry, which enables the automagic locking.) Just a thought, rick