From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jun 23 11:06:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27D6106566C for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:06:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880218FC41 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:06:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5NB6ptk064906 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:06:51 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.2/8.14.1/Submit) id m5NB6pqL064902 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:06:51 GMT (envelope-from owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:06:51 GMT Message-Id: <200806231106.m5NB6pqL064902@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: gnats set sender to owner-bugmaster@FreeBSD.org using -f From: FreeBSD bugmaster To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: Subject: Current problem reports assigned to freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:06:51 -0000 Current FreeBSD problem reports Critical problems Serious problems Non-critical problems S Tracker Resp. Description -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- o kern/120749 arch [request] Suggest upping the default kern.ps_arg_cache 1 problem total. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 22:27:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566C71065673; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:27:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344428FC14; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:27:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <486174DE.4080307@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:27:42 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremie Le Hen References: <20080418132749.GB4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <200804181945.59189.max@love2party.net> <20080418204738.GE4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080419071400.GP73016@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080419074921.GI4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080420095911.GT5934@hoeg.nl> <20080423131720.GP92168@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080609200937.GB72413@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> In-Reply-To: <20080609200937.GB72413@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Integration of ProPolice in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:27:45 -0000 Jeremie Le Hen wrote: > I have had little spare time lately, this is why my followup have taken > so long. > > Since this report from Antoine, my goal has been to be able to use > -fstack-protector-all when building world. I hoped it would be quite > straightforward, IOW that preventing bootstrap functions from being > protected would be enough. Unfortunately, it seems that building > libc_pic.a/libc.so with -fstack-protector-all breaks rtld in a very > twisted way that I'm unable to untangle for now. > > Nonetheless, I really want to see this patch hit the tree before 8.x is > forked off. I have existed for more than two years and I would like to > avoid delaying it futher. So I will go the easy path for now and > prevent libc from being built with -fstack-protector-all. > > Here are what haved changed since the previous patch: > - SSP is opt-out except for ia64; this is intended to trigger bugs. > However this doesn't mean it will be enabled by default in stable > releases. > - Thanks to Antoine, SSP related symbols are now compiled without stack > protection itself. This prevents a chicken and egg problem. > - lib/csu, gnu/lib/csu and libexec/rtld-elf are built without stack > protection. > > I'm looking forward for more review and testing of this patch in order > to get it committed soon. > > Ruslan, would you mind reviewing the change in bsd.own.mk as well? > > Thank you very much. > Best regards, > FYI, I did a package build with world built with this patch (but without adding -fstack-protector to CFLAGS). I didnt notice any problems. This makes me slightly suspicious, but another hypothesis is that the patch is in fact safe :-) Kris From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jun 24 23:12:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4F81065670; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:12:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023598FC16; Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:12:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <48617F66.6050607@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:12:38 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremie Le Hen References: <20080418132749.GB4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <200804181945.59189.max@love2party.net> <20080418204738.GE4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080419071400.GP73016@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080419074921.GI4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080420095911.GT5934@hoeg.nl> <20080423131720.GP92168@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080609200937.GB72413@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <486174DE.4080307@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <486174DE.4080307@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Integration of ProPolice in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:12:41 -0000 Kris Kennaway wrote: > FYI, I did a package build with world built with this patch (but without > adding -fstack-protector to CFLAGS). I didnt notice any problems. This > makes me slightly suspicious, but another hypothesis is that the patch > is in fact safe :-) I'm running a build with CFLAGS += -fstack-protector now...just to see how much chaos will ensue :) Kris From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 09:31:10 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A1E1065674; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:31:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tataz@tataz.chchile.org) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (smtp5-g19.free.fr [212.27.42.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD178FC13; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:31:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tataz@tataz.chchile.org) Received: from smtp5-g19.free.fr (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42923F61B2; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:31:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tatooine.tataz.chchile.org (tataz.chchile.org [82.233.239.98]) by smtp5-g19.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A103F6277; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:31:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obiwan.tataz.chchile.org (unknown [192.168.1.25]) by tatooine.tataz.chchile.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364AD9B497; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:26:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obiwan.tataz.chchile.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1F3174089; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:26:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:26:40 +0200 From: Jeremie Le Hen To: Kris Kennaway Message-ID: <20080625092640.GC15815@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> References: <200804181945.59189.max@love2party.net> <20080418204738.GE4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080419071400.GP73016@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080419074921.GI4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080420095911.GT5934@hoeg.nl> <20080423131720.GP92168@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080609200937.GB72413@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <486174DE.4080307@FreeBSD.org> <48617F66.6050607@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48617F66.6050607@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15 (2007-04-06) Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Integration of ProPolice in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:31:10 -0000 Hi Kris, Thank you for testing this :). On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 01:12:38AM +0200, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > FYI, I did a package build with world built with this patch (but without > > adding -fstack-protector to CFLAGS). I didnt notice any problems. This > > makes me slightly suspicious, but another hypothesis is that the patch is > > in fact safe :-) > > I'm running a build with CFLAGS += -fstack-protector now...just to see how > much chaos will ensue :) All ports on my laptop are compiled with it. Only a few ones broke during build: lang/gcc41 lang/gcc42 (gcc4x should break too) emulators/qemu net/etherboot Firefox, Gnome, X.org, and everything else seems to not only compile but also work correctly. There may be little noise on freebsd-ports@ once the ports bits will have been provided, because Propolice may put forth a few bugs involving stack based buffers. In this case, the program is killed with SIGABRT and message "stack overflow detected; terminated" is issued to syslog. Regards, -- Jeremie Le Hen < jeremie at le-hen dot org >< ttz at chchile dot org > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 25 12:01:57 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC9B106567D; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:01:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from weak.local (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 311308FC24; Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <486233B1.2040006@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:01:53 +0200 From: Kris Kennaway User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Macintosh/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremie Le Hen References: <200804181945.59189.max@love2party.net> <20080418204738.GE4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080419071400.GP73016@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080419074921.GI4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080420095911.GT5934@hoeg.nl> <20080423131720.GP92168@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080609200937.GB72413@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <486174DE.4080307@FreeBSD.org> <48617F66.6050607@FreeBSD.org> <20080625092640.GC15815@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> In-Reply-To: <20080625092640.GC15815@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Integration of ProPolice in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:01:57 -0000 Jeremie Le Hen wrote: > Hi Kris, > > Thank you for testing this :). > > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 01:12:38AM +0200, Kris Kennaway wrote: >> Kris Kennaway wrote: >>> FYI, I did a package build with world built with this patch (but without >>> adding -fstack-protector to CFLAGS). I didnt notice any problems. This >>> makes me slightly suspicious, but another hypothesis is that the patch is >>> in fact safe :-) >> I'm running a build with CFLAGS += -fstack-protector now...just to see how >> much chaos will ensue :) > > All ports on my laptop are compiled with it. Only a few ones broke > during build: > lang/gcc41 > lang/gcc42 (gcc4x should break too) > emulators/qemu > net/etherboot There are some others so far: Everything gcc-derived: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/g95-0.91.20070129.log http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/gcc-ooo-3.4.1_3.log http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/gcc-3.4.6_3,1.log http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/mingw32-gcc-4.2.1,1.log http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/gpc-20060325_1.log ... build error: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/ruby18-eet-0.1.4.log http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/ruby18-evas-20080302.log segfaults, not aborts: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/zh-mplayer-fonts-1.0_1.log runtime error: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/quranref-1.01_1.log linker failure: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/emacs.app-9.0_3.log sigbus: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/ikiwiki-2.48_1.log http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/drscheme-370_2.log abort due to stack protector: http://pointyhat.freebsd.org/errorlogs/amd64-errorlogs/e.8-exp.2008062315/vips-7.12.4_3.log Kris From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jun 26 12:13:44 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1571065680 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:13:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054528FC1D for ; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:13:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CDC646B8C; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:56:07 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Jeremie Le Hen In-Reply-To: <20080625092640.GC15815@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> Message-ID: <20080626125416.R96707@fledge.watson.org> References: <200804181945.59189.max@love2party.net> <20080418204738.GE4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080419071400.GP73016@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20080419074921.GI4840@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080420095911.GT5934@hoeg.nl> <20080423131720.GP92168@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <20080609200937.GB72413@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> <486174DE.4080307@FreeBSD.org> <48617F66.6050607@FreeBSD.org> <20080625092640.GC15815@obiwan.tataz.chchile.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: Kris Kennaway , Ruslan Ermilov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Integration of ProPolice in FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:13:44 -0000 On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Jeremie Le Hen wrote: >> I'm running a build with CFLAGS += -fstack-protector now...just to see how >> much chaos will ensue :) > > All ports on my laptop are compiled with it. Only a few ones broke > during build: > lang/gcc41 > lang/gcc42 (gcc4x should break too) > emulators/qemu > net/etherboot > > Firefox, Gnome, X.org, and everything else seems to not only compile but > also work correctly. > > There may be little noise on freebsd-ports@ once the ports bits will have > been provided, because Propolice may put forth a few bugs involving stack > based buffers. In this case, the program is killed with SIGABRT and message > "stack overflow detected; terminated" is issued to syslog. I'd guess that this is rather well-trodden ground by other projects, since most operating systems ship with stack protection enabled by default these days. Our dubious advantage is that other people have probably found many of the problems in third-party applications themselves at this point :-). Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 03:05:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB221065674 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:05:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from smtp.cyberlifelabs.com (197-39.84.64.smtp.cyberlifelabs.com [64.84.39.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719AA8FC13 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:05:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([71.146.3.27]) (AUTH: LOGIN milo@cyberlifelabs.com) by mail.geo.cyberlifelabs.com with esmtp; Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:55:27 -0700 Message-Id: From: Milo Hyson To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:55:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Subject: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:05:29 -0000 I apologize in advance if I have the wrong list for this, but it didn't really look like anywhere else was more appropriate. I'm curious about the reasons for FreeBSD adopting Subversion over the other candidate systems. I've read the pages discussing the pros and cons, but haven't found anything discussing the ultimate deciding factors. I ask not because I disagree with the decision, but because my company is currently facing a similar situation. We currently use Subversion but there is some interest in other tools. Understanding what "tipped the scales" as it were could prove valuable in our own decision making. Thanks. :) -- Milo Hyson Chief Scientist CyberLife Labs From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 05:56:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707C41065679 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:56:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx23.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D5E8FC1F for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:56:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 19239 invoked by uid 399); 27 Jun 2008 05:29:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO ?192.168.0.4?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 27 Jun 2008 05:29:20 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:29:17 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Milo Hyson References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:56:02 -0000 Milo Hyson wrote: > I apologize in advance if I have the wrong list for this, but it didn't > really look like anywhere else was more appropriate. > > I'm curious about the reasons for FreeBSD adopting Subversion over the > other candidate systems. I've read the pages discussing the pros and > cons, but haven't found anything discussing the ultimate deciding > factors. I ask not because I disagree with the decision, but because my > company is currently facing a similar situation. We currently use > Subversion but there is some interest in other tools. Understanding what > "tipped the scales" as it were could prove valuable in our own decision > making. I am NOT the expert on this, but I'll try to give you something to chew on (in no particular order) until someone smarter speaks up. :) 1. It's better to start collecting meta-data (change sets, merge info, etc.) sooner than later. 2. Of the systems available at this point, subversion is the easiest to export _from_. Which is to say, if we decide to use something else later on down the road it will be easier to migrate the repository from subversion to $NEWTHING. It's also possible to use frontends like git and Hg with subversion now, so people who really like those systems can have a comfortable environment to work in. 3. Subversion is close enough to cvs to give old farts like me less stress over the change. 4. Most of the other VCS' focus heavily on the idea of "distributed" operation, which doesn't really fit our development model. hth, Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 06:15:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83571065681; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 06:15:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (bigknife-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f10:75::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F19D8FC12; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 06:15:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m5R6FCkX081414; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:15:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:14:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200806270214.46861.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [IPv6:::1]); Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:15:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.93.1/7575/Thu Jun 26 19:08:06 2008 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.2 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Milo Hyson , Doug Barton Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 06:15:23 -0000 On Friday 27 June 2008 01:29:17 am Doug Barton wrote: > Milo Hyson wrote: > > I apologize in advance if I have the wrong list for this, but it didn't > > really look like anywhere else was more appropriate. > > > > I'm curious about the reasons for FreeBSD adopting Subversion over the > > other candidate systems. I've read the pages discussing the pros and > > cons, but haven't found anything discussing the ultimate deciding > > factors. I ask not because I disagree with the decision, but because my > > company is currently facing a similar situation. We currently use > > Subversion but there is some interest in other tools. Understanding what > > "tipped the scales" as it were could prove valuable in our own decision > > making. > > I am NOT the expert on this, but I'll try to give you something to chew > on (in no particular order) until someone smarter speaks up. :) > > 1. It's better to start collecting meta-data (change sets, merge info, > etc.) sooner than later. > 2. Of the systems available at this point, subversion is the easiest to > export _from_. Which is to say, if we decide to use something else later > on down the road it will be easier to migrate the repository from > subversion to $NEWTHING. It's also possible to use frontends like git > and Hg with subversion now, so people who really like those systems can > have a comfortable environment to work in. > 3. Subversion is close enough to cvs to give old farts like me less > stress over the change. > 4. Most of the other VCS' focus heavily on the idea of "distributed" > operation, which doesn't really fit our development model. Another factor is that in SVN keyword expansion ($Id$ and the like) still uses monotonically increasing numbers. Thus, you can run 'ident' on a file and you can tell if it is newer or older than another version of the file. AFAIK, git and hg both use hashes to represent different versions of a file, and you can't just look at two different MD5 hashes and know which one is newer or older. You have to actually have a repository lying around that you can connect to and query. This is more an issue of user ease-of-use than developer ease of use. Think of the case of security advisories (this was fixed in version X on the RELENG_foo branch). It's easier to see if your latest build has version X when you have version numbers than if you deal with hashes. Another requirement that FreeBSD has is the ability to be able to obliterate portions of the tree (e.g. someone accidentally commits something that they shouldn't have due to a misunderstanding, etc.). CVS is the easiest here as you can just rm the foo,v files and cvsup will cope. :) SVN is somewhat doable (my understanding is that one does a dump piped through a filter to remove the undesirables piped to restore). I'm not sure what the level of obliterate support is in hg/git. I know at one point neither supported it, but I thought I had heard that at least one was working on adding it. git is also designed to handle smaller repositories, so the preferred model for using git on a large codebase is to split your code base up into many smaller repositories. At least that is my understanding. For FreeBSD that didn't really fit our development model as one of our traditional strengths/differentiators has been a unified tree that contains a full OS. -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 07:12:51 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D7D1065671 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:12:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from smtp.cyberlifelabs.com (197-39.84.64.smtp.cyberlifelabs.com [64.84.39.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052F28FC1F for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:12:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([71.146.3.27]) (AUTH: LOGIN milo@cyberlifelabs.com) by mail.geo.cyberlifelabs.com with esmtp; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:12:50 -0700 Message-Id: <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> From: Milo Hyson To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 00:12:50 -0700 References: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:12:51 -0000 On Jun 26, 2008, at 22:29, Doug Barton wrote: > 1. It's better to start collecting meta-data (change sets, merge > info, etc.) sooner than later. May I assume by "collecting" you mean gathering together in a location controlled by the FreeBSD team and made available to others? This was an argument made here in favor of centralized systems like Subversion. If someone is doing any significant work, we want it within the project so others can see and use it. > 4. Most of the other VCS' focus heavily on the idea of "distributed" > operation, which doesn't really fit our development model. The only real benefits I saw in distributed systems were private branching and offline work. The former seems like it could be achieved in Subversion by creating semi-private user directories like FreeBSD does. As for the latter, while it's sometimes unavoidable (e.g. working on an airplane) isn't something we really want to encourage. -- Milo Hyson Chief Scientist CyberLife Labs From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 15:46:52 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8E31065675 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD77A8FC1C for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6E92091; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:29:37 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Milo Hyson References: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 17:29:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> (Milo Hyson's message of "Fri\, 27 Jun 2008 00\:12\:50 -0700") Message-ID: <86ej6iyjz3.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:46:53 -0000 Milo Hyson writes: > Doug Barton wrote: > > 1. It's better to start collecting meta-data (change sets, merge > > info, etc.) sooner than later. > May I assume by "collecting" you mean gathering together in a location > controlled by the FreeBSD team and made available to others? Subversion stores more information about each commit than CVS does, especially when it comes to moving, copying, branching and merging files. This information is called metadata. By switching to Subversion, we start storing (rather than discarding) this information, which will make it easier to switch to another system later. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 27 18:04:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092421065672 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:04:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gordon.tetlow@gmail.com) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.237]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35888FC1A for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:04:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gordon.tetlow@gmail.com) Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id c8so279311wra.27 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:04:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Ibvwx82oY9VC5bEksRL8UnCuZuBaPiETUQTOpCMbb8g=; b=LoSmlo7Umj68r5xYyqeIRk1muMm/0HO1y3vd+JRSOJghRdgZjp/99KGc1K6RstYKGF FI/rOmQO7WWdGAl+vEFPl1D1FVtoKjORJbew3qsoTuVW2baKWE3q87MNoAqjIluncnQ2 sWkwN9S2FR1JrWsopziqawaHpR1RXAxIg6Ji4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=ggwbYdeeOsBDZVRjKWSidiQB7mz0urJLbpM5o1yaKzUoxRquH9m1GWHRl8PJhU57og Dg7MmwQE/vy5zMyrRCzvaY350stw5msgCIG07gRR5Zh+SquIenw5tPPRfFb7pSHveX9i SGmzmz3wsJaBZD5Q9PKPXYIYeThGam2Xgbgeo= Received: by 10.100.136.15 with SMTP id j15mr2063843and.11.1214588275782; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.138.1 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 10:37:55 -0700 From: "Gordon Tetlow" Sender: gordon.tetlow@gmail.com To: "Milo Hyson" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 924a18556ba8b185 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:04:08 -0000 On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:55 PM, Milo Hyson wrote: > I apologize in advance if I have the wrong list for this, but it didn't > really look like anywhere else was more appropriate. > > I'm curious about the reasons for FreeBSD adopting Subversion over the > other candidate systems. I've read the pages discussing the pros and cons, > but haven't found anything discussing the ultimate deciding factors. I ask > not because I disagree with the decision, but because my company is > currently facing a similar situation. We currently use Subversion but there > is some interest in other tools. Understanding what "tipped the scales" as > it were could prove valuable in our own decision making. > As an SCM expert at my place of employment, it really does come down to a couple of simple decisions. The biggest one for a company is: Do you want a centralized or distributed model for your development model? CVS, SVN, and Perforce are all centralized repositories (Perforce even moreso that the others). Hg, git, and bzr are all decentralized and distributed models. Moving to SVN makes a lot of sense for the FreeBSD project both as a stepping stone (it's better than CVS and retains more information), works well with our existing infrastructure (we can export things back to CVS relatively easily to support CVSup since the usage model between them is very similar), and works well with our existing development model (one central repository that everyone talks to). These are the reasons it makes sense for the FreeBSD project, you'll have to identify the reasons that make sense for your company. -gordon From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 28 01:26:55 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8522106567B for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:26:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from smtp.cyberlifelabs.com (197-39.84.64.smtp.cyberlifelabs.com [64.84.39.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812F18FC16 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:26:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from milo@cyberlifelabs.com) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([71.146.3.27]) (AUTH: LOGIN milo@cyberlifelabs.com) by mail.geo.cyberlifelabs.com with esmtp; Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:26:55 -0700 Message-Id: <1E7FB809-CFBE-4ED6-9F32-97C90359BBF9@cyberlifelabs.com> From: Milo Hyson To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:26:54 -0700 References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.924) Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:26:55 -0000 On Jun 27, 2008, at 10:37, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > Do you want a centralized or distributed model for your development > model? CVS, SVN, and Perforce are all centralized repositories > (Perforce even moreso that the others). Hg, git, and bzr are all > decentralized and distributed models. ... > Moving to SVN makes a lot of sense for the FreeBSD project ... works > well with our existing development model (one central repository > that everyone talks to). Can not the "decentralized" systems like Mercurial and GIT be used in a centralized fashion? Our internal experiments certainly show them to be every bit as capable as Subversion in this regard. Has your experience been different? -- Milo Hyson Chief Scientist CyberLife Labs From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 28 07:53:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CF51065675 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brix@FreeBSD.org) Received: from solow.pil.dk (relay.pil.dk [195.41.47.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410A48FC13 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brix@FreeBSD.org) Received: from tirith.brixandersen.dk (0x55534f5f.adsl.cybercity.dk [85.83.79.95]) by solow.pil.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586091CCBCF for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:35:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: by tirith.brixandersen.dk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 839EE1141D; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:35:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:35:44 +0200 From: Henrik Brix Andersen To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080628073544.GA45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <48647AAD.5040909@FreeBSD.org> <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T4sUOijqQbZv57TR" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7D28014A-C3FB-4944-95FC-15F299F9AF37@cyberlifelabs.com> X-PGP-Key: http://www.brixandersen.dk/files/HenrikBrixAndersen.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:53:37 -0000 --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:12:50AM -0700, Milo Hyson wrote: > The only real benefits I saw in distributed systems were private branchin= g=20 > and offline work. The former seems like it could be achieved in Subversio= n=20 > by creating semi-private user directories like FreeBSD does. As for the= =20 > latter, while it's sometimes unavoidable (e.g. working on an airplane)=20 > isn't something we really want to encourage. The latter (offline work) can also be done with SVN by using the SVK [1] frontend. Brix [1]: http://svk.bestpractical.com/view/HomePage --=20 Henrik Brix Andersen --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: GnuPG signed iEYEARECAAYFAkhl6c8ACgkQv+Q4flTiePjgZACdFEF/5tHirzqYyngYfZFCmgdI hMEAnRQnBYjMiQ9jGrkDLRAKCaYDAbgT =nmY/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T4sUOijqQbZv57TR-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 28 07:53:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B77F1065676 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brix@FreeBSD.org) Received: from solow.pil.dk (relay.pil.dk [195.41.47.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457368FC14 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brix@FreeBSD.org) Received: from tirith.brixandersen.dk (0x55534f5f.adsl.cybercity.dk [85.83.79.95]) by solow.pil.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673771CCBD0 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:38:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by tirith.brixandersen.dk (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AF4AB1141D; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:38:07 +0200 From: Henrik Brix Andersen To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080628073807.GB45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> <1E7FB809-CFBE-4ED6-9F32-97C90359BBF9@cyberlifelabs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1E7FB809-CFBE-4ED6-9F32-97C90359BBF9@cyberlifelabs.com> X-PGP-Key: http://www.brixandersen.dk/files/HenrikBrixAndersen.asc User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:53:37 -0000 --JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 06:26:54PM -0700, Milo Hyson wrote: > Can not the "decentralized" systems like Mercurial and GIT be used in a= =20 > centralized fashion? Our internal experiments certainly show them to be= =20 > every bit as capable as Subversion in this regard. Has your experience be= en=20 > different? They _can_ be used in centralized fashion, but they do not enforce it. Subversion enforces a centralized development model. Brix --=20 Henrik Brix Andersen --JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: GnuPG signed iEYEARECAAYFAkhl6l8ACgkQv+Q4flTiePi8EwCfce5cJSdMu6H6LIk6vgWHI5Ve 5TQAoKuD/UsWjDZ4exBLmjt6jKl5oVzp =x11B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JYK4vJDZwFMowpUq-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 28 08:05:47 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C065106564A for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:05:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.watson.org [209.31.154.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DF08FC1B for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:05:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwatson@FreeBSD.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [209.31.154.41]) by cyrus.watson.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E1246C41; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 04:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:05:46 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson X-X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Henrik Brix Andersen In-Reply-To: <20080628073807.GB45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> Message-ID: <20080628085440.D18482@fledge.watson.org> References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> <1E7FB809-CFBE-4ED6-9F32-97C90359BBF9@cyberlifelabs.com> <20080628073807.GB45690@tirith.brixandersen.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:05:47 -0000 On Sat, 28 Jun 2008, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: > On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 06:26:54PM -0700, Milo Hyson wrote: >> Can not the "decentralized" systems like Mercurial and GIT be used in a >> centralized fashion? Our internal experiments certainly show them to be >> every bit as capable as Subversion in this regard. Has your experience been >> different? > > They _can_ be used in centralized fashion, but they do not enforce it. > Subversion enforces a centralized development model. Well, tools like svk bring the benefits of decentralized development to svn, and many decentralized tools can easily piggy-back on the changeset stream for svn, so I'm not sure I'd use the word "enforce". I think the driving factors really come down to some more practical concerns: - The migration to svn from cvs is an incremental step, which means that the conversion is (was) less likely to seriously interrupt development. - The import and export from cvs is well-understood and well-honed; Peter still had to do a month of work to get it to import, and that helps capture what a massive task even that was. Export is really important to, as we will continue to support cvsup of a consistently structured repository for the forseeable future using CVS and cvsup. - Certain key features are precluded *by design* in many of the decentralized tools. In particular, the use of cryptographic hashes to over changesets to construct version identifiers means that the tools would have to be rather seriously modified to support obliteration, and we consider obliteration a functional requirement. It's not as easy in svn as in cvs, but it is possible, and that is key. We'd love to see the DVCS systems that currently prevent obliterate grow some sort of support for it, and I can't imagine that we are alone in this requirement. - We make extensive use of $FreeBSD$ version identifiers when debugging user problems, and cryptographic hash values used by some systems for version numbers don't meet our requirements. For example, access to a repository is required to answer the question "Do you have foo.h revision X or greater". - There was a stron desire to support partial check-outs of our tree without subdividing the tree, which would lose the benefit of atomic changesets, not to mention our generally unified approach to build and revision control. Interestingly, many of the DCVS tools don't allow you to say "just check out the kernel" without organizing repositories around "the kernel" as an administrative boundary. There's a pretty long thread discussing whether git could be used by the KDE folks for this reason, who also have a very large repository. The conclusion appeared to be that they'd need to break it into many smaller repositories. There are other similar scalability concerns with several other pieces of DCVS software. I think it's also worth pointing out that the SVN and SVK folk have been incredibly helpful during the migration; and, of course, it shouldn't be ignored that SVN provides many of the features we *do* require, especially with 1.5, and does them efficiently and well. SVN also makes it easier for developers or third parties who *do* want to use DCVS to do so: instead of exporting CVS meta-data, we're now exporting a consistent changeset stream with merging meta-data, etc, which is a much better thing to import into a DCVS. As the transition was a complex and very long-running project (and still is running!), there's a lot more to it than can be easily captured in a bullet list, and I'm certain I've missed at least a few interesting points. Perhaps Peter will chime in and mention some more :-). Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 28 16:11:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DF51065674 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:11:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB5D8FC20 for ; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:11:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD3D2049; Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:11:35 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Gordon Tetlow" References: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:11:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4e571dd70806271037j59faed19y8d3e29423c9d8a2@mail.gmail.com> (Gordon Tetlow's message of "Fri\, 27 Jun 2008 10\:37\:55 -0700") Message-ID: <86tzfdwnd4.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Milo Hyson , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about SCM choice X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:11:37 -0000 "Gordon Tetlow" writes: > As an SCM expert at my place of employment, [...] As an SCM expert, you should know that neither CVS not Subversion are SCM tools. Neither are any of the other systems you mention, except perhaps, at a stretch, Perforce. They are version (or revision) control systems. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no