From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 10:51:02 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68FD3106566B for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 10:51:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062538FC1A for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 10:51:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so730950mue.3 for ; Sun, 04 May 2008 03:51:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=ARKOC36JVSS93YqDuhLGjeuPoF44o1Op4XfzWUoQThk=; b=RHsLzMjP2DhWqvPQhnHuBs8tU5XppyGWgu0Uh+kmLoUuxoHf6IVolUjh9nLqTK3veK8/7ZVv6HpuCE1D/pHyO5EXgs/WuHjJIIlmUMHbEC/c9DoJCYMky6hZ9MfaoBCxZnqaVQRGt5BvfQFurEesfUazFMy2al4F0HGqISEea5g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=tq57AYag+dvD38rT6Ya/4eUrDsFHCXCPXh4P8dYz/a+IXCvdWBo8G4iO2Bsvexdalgk8lEFt9iHzK0ijxpoypJIFAPRulVfpQ/Opeh+gXZvUUg7IIexktOJeUR48tlA8fokIyC8ewXXebIw/gzM3jPpZKzW/OvYmOqJYXCdVPGs= Received: by 10.78.143.13 with SMTP id q13mr1310193hud.80.1209896660786; Sun, 04 May 2008 03:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.12 with HTTP; Sun, 4 May 2008 03:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6a506d980805040324k4b9cd9f8y2b75fd47781dbdfa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:54:20 +0530 From: "Rahul Siddharthan" Sender: rsidd120@gmail.com To: "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ebec7702fd89e7f5 Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 10:51:02 -0000 On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Jason C. Wells wrote: > When will we be able to access our computerized data on the desktop with out > complete dependence on the hierarchy? Has anyone in the FOSS community > tackled this problem? What software is used? > > I am tired of hierarchies. [snip] > In a library I can access pretty much every volume in two steps. Search > the index, then go to the location of the volume and pick it from the shelf. > Their is a pattern here. The easiest systems that I use all have a > "search/index" paradigm attached to them. The indexing system (Dewey or whatever) is a hierarchy, though it may not be obvious when the books are arrayed on a library shelf. If you want to index your files (metadata, or informative filenames, or whatever) and dump them all in one directory, go ahead. Thinking about a suitable indexing system is an exercise for the reader. (A non-trivial exercise. Library indexing systems are still a topic of research; I imagine the complexity of indexing millions of items of entirely disparate kinds of data, such as a typical computer contains, would be phenomenal.) Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 12:30:43 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D991C1065676 for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 12:30:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rs@midearth.co.uk) Received: from ns3.duzle.com (ns4.duzle.com [85.10.203.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE07F8FC39 for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 12:30:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rs@midearth.co.uk) Received: from secure.duzle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns3.duzle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33A628C000F; Sun, 4 May 2008 14:15:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 78.86.146.100 (SquirrelMail authenticated user rs@midearth.co.uk) by secure.duzle.com with HTTP; Sun, 4 May 2008 13:15:04 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <54806.78.86.146.100.1209903304.squirrel@secure.duzle.com> In-Reply-To: <6a506d980805040324k4b9cd9f8y2b75fd47781dbdfa@mail.gmail.com> References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> <6a506d980805040324k4b9cd9f8y2b75fd47781dbdfa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 13:15:04 +0100 (BST) From: "Roopinder Singh" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.10a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:30:43 -0000 On Sun, May 4, 2008 11:24 am, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > If you want to index your files (metadata, or informative filenames, or > whatever) and dump them all in one directory, go ahead. Thinking about > a suitable indexing system is an exercise for the reader. (A non-trivial > exercise. Library indexing systems are still a topic of research; I > imagine > the complexity of indexing millions of items of entirely disparate kinds > of > data, such as a typical computer contains, would be phenomenal.) Doesn't Beagle do this exact thing ? Or, have I got it completely wrong ? http://beagle-project.org/Main_Page Roopinder Singh rs@midearth.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 12:53:23 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48A7106564A for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 12:53:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infofarmer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from heka.cenkes.org (heka.cenkes.org [208.79.80.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9082B8FC1C for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 12:53:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from infofarmer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from amilo.cenkes.org (ppp85-140-151-248.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.151.248]) (Authenticated sender: sat) by heka.cenkes.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3AC83242FA03; Sun, 4 May 2008 16:37:23 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:37:20 +0400 From: Andrew Pantyukhin To: "Jason C. Wells" Message-ID: <20080504123719.GJ92161@amilo.cenkes.org> References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> X-OS: FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT amd64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: infofarmer@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:53:23 -0000 On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 03:02:15PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > When will we be able to access our computerized data on the > desktop with out complete dependence on the hierarchy? Has > anyone in the FOSS community tackled this problem? What > software is used? You know the language is hierarchical, don't you? w->(wh->when,what),will,we;b->be;a->able,access;... I understand your feelings, but like with so many other technical problems, the roots of this one grow out of a user's head. That's where it should be fixed, IMHO. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 13:49:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C439106567D for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 13:49:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com (mu-out-0910.google.com [209.85.134.191]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F478FC12 for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 13:49:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so760890mue.3 for ; Sun, 04 May 2008 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=Y8ZNOf5wp3AU2xNzKyNiV0VfjO5aZ9YbJVeLQMec3QQ=; b=h6tVSLUDzV2oxgQHzRcUhpJS9YbQJy16B5osvhQ5PWyWPF9dfZ1ekbUD+eRnneEAoWpY5aUI9CBUJ1n0892L/vNZwooeAUmOdmcDftHuuDFsO6wW4yULlASPH4Og7lzPScscnvU7z+gQynO/9y155wKxKsCHcv1UeiR4Rxp0Qgc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=IUVpgdM9pznIX8OLC6kP1IfSgaQoyhjram5OhZeLFBMRX6u5ijF0ZG+7KXeRA0NMqxAkRqXEvSE2gC0I9pkFci8hmdIspsQYhkX6j+mQK8P0iIk0TM3aUqMRQM5PiLDMqlnL7JB3837Q09/7VhIjdu1N/7fhN6AczwMIAPHVZvw= Received: by 10.78.167.12 with SMTP id p12mr1351939hue.51.1209908966462; Sun, 04 May 2008 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.12 with HTTP; Sun, 4 May 2008 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6a506d980805040649k4d4e8174nb74256776db592c3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 19:19:26 +0530 From: "Rahul Siddharthan" Sender: rsidd120@gmail.com To: "Roopinder Singh" In-Reply-To: <54806.78.86.146.100.1209903304.squirrel@secure.duzle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> <6a506d980805040324k4b9cd9f8y2b75fd47781dbdfa@mail.gmail.com> <54806.78.86.146.100.1209903304.squirrel@secure.duzle.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: e075fd98bbc79452 Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 13:49:28 -0000 On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Roopinder Singh wrote: > On Sun, May 4, 2008 11:24 am, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > If you want to index your files (metadata, or informative filenames, or > > whatever) and dump them all in one directory, go ahead. Thinking about > > a suitable indexing system is an exercise for the reader. (A non-trivial > > exercise. Library indexing systems are still a topic of research; I imagine > > the complexity of indexing millions of items of entirely disparate kinds of > > data, such as a typical computer contains, would be phenomenal.) > > Doesn't Beagle do this exact thing ? Or, have I got it completely wrong ? > > http://beagle-project.org/Main_Page Well, Beagle tries to spare you the trouble of doing metadata by looking inside the files... and it handles directory trees fine. If you want to do what Jason suggests -- dump everything in a single directory (like a single library room) and depend on metadata and indexing to find what you want, Beagle would be overkill... By the way, I don't think the indexed public library analogy is correct. Searching your computer would be like searching your individual home library, which, if it has thousands of books, can be a non-trivial problem unless you have been extremely systematic... Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 4 14:01:37 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9562106566B for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 14:01:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: from ella.lautre.net (ella.lautre.net [80.67.160.76]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9798FC0A for ; Sun, 4 May 2008 14:01:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from thierry@pompo.net) Received: from graf.pompo.net (graf.pompo.net [81.56.186.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.lautre.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A824C19B; Sun, 4 May 2008 16:01:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by graf.pompo.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 21AF71148F; Sun, 4 May 2008 16:01:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:01:31 +0200 From: Thierry Thomas To: Rahul Siddharthan Message-ID: <20080504140131.GE57012@graf.pompo.net> Mail-Followup-To: Rahul Siddharthan , Roopinder Singh , "Jason C. Wells" , fbsd_chat References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> <6a506d980805040324k4b9cd9f8y2b75fd47781dbdfa@mail.gmail.com> <54806.78.86.146.100.1209903304.squirrel@secure.duzle.com> <6a506d980805040649k4d4e8174nb74256776db592c3@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <6a506d980805040649k4d4e8174nb74256776db592c3@mail.gmail.com> X-Face: (hRbQnK~Pt7$ct`!fupO(`y_WL4^-Iwn4@ly-.,[4xC4xc; y=\ipKMNm<1J>lv@PP~7Z<.t KjAnXLs: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 7.0-PRERELEASE i386 Organization: Kabbale Eros X-PGP: 0xC71405A2 Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , fbsd_chat , Roopinder Singh Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 14:01:37 -0000 Le Dim 4 mai 08 à 15:49:26 +0200, Rahul Siddharthan écrivait : > On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 5:45 PM, Roopinder Singh wrote: > > On Sun, May 4, 2008 11:24 am, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > If you want to index your files (metadata, or informative filenames, or > > > whatever) and dump them all in one directory, go ahead. Thinking about > > > a suitable indexing system is an exercise for the reader. (A non-trivial > > > exercise. Library indexing systems are still a topic of research; I imagine > > > the complexity of indexing millions of items of entirely disparate kinds of > > > data, such as a typical computer contains, would be phenomenal.) > > > > Doesn't Beagle do this exact thing ? Or, have I got it completely wrong ? > > > > http://beagle-project.org/Main_Page > > Well, Beagle tries to spare you the trouble of doing metadata by looking inside > the files... and it handles directory trees fine. If you want to do what Jason > suggests -- dump everything in a single directory (like a single library room) > and depend on metadata and indexing to find what you want, Beagle would be > overkill... Maybe not Beagle, but Eaglemode, without B? -- Th. Thomas. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 00:42:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC481065672 for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 00:42:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869548FC18 for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 00:42:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K0D00303DZ7OGH0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>; Sun, 04 May 2008 20:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m450gfw1019851; Sun, 04 May 2008 20:42:41 -0400 Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 20:42:36 -0400 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <20080504123719.GJ92161@amilo.cenkes.org> To: infofarmer@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <481E57FC.9030804@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> <20080504123719.GJ92161@amilo.cenkes.org> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080504) Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 00:42:45 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Pantyukhin wrote: | On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 03:02:15PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: |> When will we be able to access our computerized data on the |> desktop with out complete dependence on the hierarchy? Has |> anyone in the FOSS community tackled this problem? What |> software is used? | | You know the language is hierarchical, don't you? | | w->(wh->when,what),will,we;b->be;a->able,access;... | | I understand your feelings, but like with so many other technical | problems, the roots of this one grow out of a user's head. | That's where it should be fixed, IMHO. The last sentence is just insulting. The reason being is while yes there are somethings that a natural hieractical it does not mean that there are some other things that should not be. Yes I admit that (at least traditionally) information is naturally hieractical in that you can split it into categories, with the two most important ones in the pre-computer world being library cataloging systems and specializing knowledge by profession. That being said there is a point at which the catagories become so specialized that to even understand what they are requires you to be an expert in the field. For example the difference between algorithms and data structures is only understandable to a programmer (yes non-programmers can get a idea but not all the implications). When applied to hiearictical files systems for example unless you really understand the ins and outs of the unix philosophy it makes very little sense why /bin, /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin are separate dirs (after using unix for 20+ years I still don't understand the diff between /bin and /usr/bin). Requiring stuff be kept in some preset heirachy has among other problems the following problems that come to mind for me: ~ 1. It is hard to make connections between different pieces of knowledge because the hierarchy forces you to think in it's terms not more natural terms ~ 2. Successful use requires you to get inside the head of the person(s) who created the hierarchy and if you think differently then they do oh well ~ 3. Unless your an expert in the system it is often harder to find things then if the system was not used ~ 4. Stuff can easily get lost because it gets mis-cataloged ~ 5. If the system didn't plan for some major catagory it will be crunched into a sub catagory(s) that do not make very much sense for example under Library of Congress computer science is under math (QA76.XXXX) but electronics is under TK510[456].XXXX ~ 6. If viewing the information under a different heiarchical system makes it easier to understand for some applications then very complicated mappings need to be made for example there are whole reference books that do nothing but show side by side the Library of Congress and Duey Decimal call numbers side by side so a reference librarian can use either one when doing interlibrary loan A very good example all the items above is the current ports system. In short the more finally cut we make our categories the harder it is guess/generate the "search key" (either a real key or metaphorically a mental picture of one). For all the above reasons I would argue for flatter hieracies with metahierachies overlayed for different purposes then one typically sees today. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkgeV/sACgkQk8GFzCrQm4CA6QCgxpfNJBsM0N1FKzoJvpsccLi5 1oIAn3coeb1O+uc/0vAJO3iSxAJ0klTD =T1A9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 01:23:56 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2136106566C for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 01:23:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: from mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0A58FC0C for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 01:23:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jcw@highperformance.net) Received: (qmail 18442 invoked from network); 5 May 2008 01:23:56 -0000 Received: from mxperim5.sea5.speakeasy.net ([69.17.117.70]) (envelope-sender ) by mail24.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 5 May 2008 01:23:56 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mxperim5.sea5.speakeasy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90969B7AB; Sun, 4 May 2008 18:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mxperim5.sea5.speakeasy.net Received: from mxperim5.sea5.speakeasy.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mxperim5.sea5.speakeasy.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pS7DxDsSD1yL; Sun, 4 May 2008 18:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w16.stradamotorsports.com (dsl081-163-042.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.163.42]) by mxperim5.sea5.speakeasy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP; Sun, 4 May 2008 18:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <481E61CB.5060504@highperformance.net> Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:24:27 -0700 From: "Jason C. Wells" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4pre (X11/20080205) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aryeh M. Friedman" References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> <20080504123719.GJ92161@amilo.cenkes.org> <481E57FC.9030804@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <481E57FC.9030804@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 01:23:56 -0000 Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: > ~ 5. If the system didn't plan for some major catagory it will be > crunched into a sub catagory(s) that do not make very much sense for > example under Library of Congress computer science is under math > (QA76.XXXX) but electronics is under TK510[456].XXXX In this example the call number performs a dual function of identifier and grouping. The ability to lookup the address in a computerized card catalog database mostly negates the weakness of the poor grouping. Because a computer can manage location and grouping in some other fashion, all we really need is a unique identifier. > A very good example all the items above is the current ports system. > In short the more finally cut we make our categories the harder it is > guess/generate the "search key" (either a real key or metaphorically a > mental picture of one). For all the above reasons I would argue for > flatter hieracies with metahierachies overlayed for different purposes > then one typically sees today. The idea of an overlay I think is a very powerful one. The file system hierarchy could simply be one overlay that might be applied by a hypothetical storage manager. An author might use an author's overlay suitable to the author's task. All user's would have to be careful to divorce that idea of "what" they are looking at from "where" they found it. There would multiple disjoint locations in an overlay system that all refer to precisely the same resource. Later, Jason From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 5 02:20:35 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF5A1065670 for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 02:20:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AE48FC2B for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 02:20:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (ool-435559b8.dyn.optonline.net [67.85.89.184]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K0D004ZIII7X8H0@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 22:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flosoft.no-ip.biz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flosoft.no-ip.biz (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m452KRK4020286; Sun, 04 May 2008 22:20:29 -0400 Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 22:20:22 -0400 From: "Aryeh M. Friedman" In-reply-to: <481E61CB.5060504@highperformance.net> To: "Jason C. Wells" Message-id: <481E6EE6.4090404@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.6 References: <481CE0E7.7070900@highperformance.net> <20080504123719.GJ92161@amilo.cenkes.org> <481E57FC.9030804@gmail.com> <481E61CB.5060504@highperformance.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080504) Cc: fbsd_chat Subject: Re: Tired of Hierarchies X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 02:20:35 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jason C. Wells wrote: | Aryeh M. Friedman wrote: | |> ~ 5. If the system didn't plan for some major catagory it will be crunched into a sub catagory(s) that do not make very much sense for example under Library of Congress computer science is under math (QA76.XXXX) but electronics is under TK510[456].XXXX | | In this example the call number performs a dual function of identifier and grouping. The ability to lookup the address in a computerized card catalog database mostly negates the weakness of the poor grouping. Because a computer can manage location and grouping in some other fashion, all we really need is a unique identifier. | |> A very good example all the items above is the current ports system. In short the more finally cut we make our categories the harder it is guess/generate the "search key" (either a real key or metaphorically a mental picture of one). For all the above reasons I would argue for flatter hieracies with metahierachies overlayed for different purposes then one typically sees today. | | The idea of an overlay I think is a very powerful one. The file system hierarchy could simply be one overlay that might be applied by a hypothetical storage manager. An author might use an author's overlay suitable to the author's task. All user's would have to be careful to divorce that idea of "what" they are looking at from "where" they found it. There would multiple disjoint locations in an overlay system that all refer to precisely the same resource. | One issue you would need to consider in such a system is how to ensure that the "address" in one hierachy doesn't interfere with the address in an other hierachyy (the two are allowed to vary independantly). Two examples pop to mind immediatly URL's and Email addresses. Specifically both refer to a resource that theortically has nothing to do with it's physical location but only on it's conceptual location. For example I should give a damn what machine someone uses to receive mail on in order to send them mail, namely how many times I switch ISP's my address would stay "aryeh.m.friedman" (for example) [notice no @dns]. Back in the late 90's I offered a service like this http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.atless.net but sadly not enough demand to keep it going. The URL issue is the same. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkgebuYACgkQk8GFzCrQm4CgFQCfUBDce8iqlJnGcRban3OIaWLW l5AAoNI9KVWNSnQ+9DJA/aKd/zPGyNar =MnXY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 03:02:19 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8BF106566C for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 03:02:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carloshpf@oi.com.br) Received: from smtp2.oi.com.br (smtp5.oi.com.br [200.222.115.129]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177F98FC1D for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 03:02:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carloshpf@oi.com.br) Received: from smtp2.oi.com.br (smtp2.oi.com.br [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.oi.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0891870007C2 for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 23:38:33 -0300 (BRT) Received: from [201.42.164.169] (201-42-164-169.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.42.164.169]) by smtp2.oi.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1AD7000E37 for ; Mon, 5 May 2008 23:38:31 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 23:38:22 -0300 From: Carlos Porto Filho User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 03:02:19 -0000 What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) to use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? is there something better than fat32? tia From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 03:31:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CBD1065683 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 03:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sigma.zx@gmail.com) Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com (wx-out-0506.google.com [66.249.82.227]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9046D8FC12 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 03:31:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sigma.zx@gmail.com) Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h27so406735wxd.7 for ; Mon, 05 May 2008 20:31:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; bh=O02FaAY6+aFbmPzn/SnO/iOLHHx0Si846IXjjreSm+g=; b=E2n+Rw6Jisl5b8H1LSbIGo7nbq0z5CrQgfGCtPFpG6EzKIwGaBIgDlS7beWJtoEO2ADnSwQGAG8kk16IJMaOli4Kpjr9HcShT3z37xRs1A3yZ129BJxsco7+de6ttnn+7BQWlScAgnYW258eAKdoV0fDcKV9MCQhpwTE+Lnii+Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:message-id; b=GEsjftq8GO7diaSsASYv8RDRaa470++m4FQpC58TgmjtCAeElSScxAz+H2nBJxbfCzmCZMfi/CrnV/HQmeBKIsbl90O5CsdhxGVNc1iLAcI5mxxyKZg5LAjPzLGS9ZVqH7MCmmul6Jr045SrvdE0lttGraJe40qnCALSQTIzQH8= Received: by 10.142.49.4 with SMTP id w4mr93824wfw.185.1210043226200; Mon, 05 May 2008 20:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pavilion.local ( [24.85.244.108]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 27sm300838wfa.2.2008.05.05.20.07.02 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 05 May 2008 20:07:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sean G. McLaughlin" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:10:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.9 References: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> In-Reply-To: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200805052010.04210.sigma.zx@gmail.com> Subject: Re: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 03:31:36 -0000 On Monday 05 May 2008 07:38:22 pm Carlos Porto Filho wrote: > What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) to > use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? is there > something better than fat32? You can "roll the dice" on NTFS-3G, or try to get Windows to read FreeBSD's filesystems (there are drivers to do this, supposedly). From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 11:59:41 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5351065676 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 11:59:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from be-well.ilk.org (dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.78.145]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0C78FC1B for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 11:59:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from Lowell-Desk.lan (Lowell-Desk.lan [172.30.250.6]) by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA64A28479; Tue, 6 May 2008 07:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by Lowell-Desk.lan (Postfix, from userid 1147) id D3A081CC34; Tue, 6 May 2008 07:44:27 -0400 (EDT) To: Carlos Porto Filho References: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 07:44:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> (Carlos Porto Filho's message of "Mon\, 05 May 2008 23\:38\:22 -0300") Message-ID: <44zlr38xno.fsf@Lowell-Desk.lan> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.1 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 11:59:41 -0000 Carlos Porto Filho writes: > What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) to > use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? is there > something better than fat32? To be honest, FAT isn't that bad a filesystem for relatively large files which change relatively rarely. I find that this is the case for my media files. However, I don't use FAT, because I'm not sharing with another OS. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 14:38:08 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF302106566B for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 14:38:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from angus@fairhaven.za.net) Received: from smtp.imaginet.co.za (smtp.imaginet.co.za [196.15.145.6]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819978FC17 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 14:38:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from angus@fairhaven.za.net) Received: from jamber.imaginet.co.za ([196.15.145.164]) by smtp.imaginet.co.za with esmtpa (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtNqD-00080G-Mg for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 06 May 2008 16:08:25 +0200 Message-ID: <4820676C.4030403@fairhaven.za.net> Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:13:00 +0200 From: Angus Robinson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> In-Reply-To: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender-Verified: True X-Allowed-from: 196.15.145.164 X-Whitelisted: The user has Authenticated (2). Subject: Re: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 14:38:09 -0000 Carlos Porto Filho wrote: > What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) to > use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? is there > something better than fat32? > tia > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I did not have a problem with ntfs and freebsd, i was able to write and read from it. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 21:54:16 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E833210656C8 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 21:54:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from c-0500.emailmediator.com (c-0500.emailmediator.com [64.85.162.118]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5198FC20 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 21:54:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from pool-71-123-170-155.dllstx.dsl-w.verizon.net ([71.123.170.155] helo=reedmedia.net) by c-0500.emailmediator.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1JtUkY-0000h0-8K for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 06 May 2008 17:31:02 -0400 Received: from reed@reedmedia.net by reedmedia.net with local (mailout 0.17) id 21146-1210109509; Tue, 06 May 2008 16:31:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:31:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: Subject: where is a lightweight, simple word processor? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:54:17 -0000 I have been looking for a simple word processor that supports formatted text, different fonts and maybe bullet lists. And is close to WYSIWYG. I don't care about format it can save or import as long as I can find an intermediate tool to do my conversions. I don't need tables. But if it can plug into another speller that would be nice but not required. Also images not required, but okay. Support for multiple languages would be nice but required right now. I will accept losing formatting attributes when importing. Page breaks would be nice but not required. (I often receive and send press releases and other documents that are in different formats. I don't like losing all the formatting when I send back an edited document. I don't mind losing hidden metadata.) I found gwp but old 1999 code uses old gnome-libs. I found 1998 maxwell, but haven't figured out build yet on modern system. siag's pw has crashed a few times on me. And I don't know if maintained. Ted has worked for me sometimes and failed for me sometimes. I don't know if still maintained. abiword is too big. kword is too big. oowriter is too big. LyX is too big. I don't want to require KDE libraries, libgnome, teTeX, or other big dependencies. I don't need hundreds of features just to be able to edit and provide simple document that has some formatted text. I don't want to manually type in RTF, XML, or OpenDocument formats. Maybe there is some GTK widget that provides a rich formatting editor? Maybe some rich format editor can be stripped out of some email client or HTML editor to be a standalone simple light word processor? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 23:37:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF92106564A for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 23:37:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from murray@stokely.org) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA358FC0A for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 23:37:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from murray@stokely.org) Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so513615uge.37 for ; Tue, 06 May 2008 16:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.15.8 with SMTP id s8mr6676954ugi.42.1210115389871; Tue, 06 May 2008 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.67.20.17 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2008 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2a7894eb0805061609r327a47a6p19d0797fc42dfcb0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:09:49 -0700 From: "Murray Stokely" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: where is a lightweight, simple word processor? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 23:37:29 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I have been looking for a simple word processor that supports formatted > text, different fonts and maybe bullet lists. And is close to WYSIWYG. I > don't care about format it can save or import as long as I can find an > intermediate tool to do my conversions. I don't need tables. But if it can > plug into another speller that would be nice but not required. Also images > not required, but okay. Support for multiple languages would be nice but > required right now. I will accept losing formatting attributes when > importing. Page breaks would be nice but not required. ... > Maybe some rich format editor can be stripped out of some email client or > HTML editor to be a standalone simple light word processor? Google Docs meets the basic requirements you listed here, but I'm guessing you intentionally excluded it for other reasons? You can import HTML files and plain text, Microsoft Word (.doc), Rich Text (.rtf), OpenDocument Text (.odt), StarOffice (.sxw), Microsoft PowerPoint (.ppt, .pps), Comma Separated Value (.csv), Microsoft Excel (.xls) files, and OpenDocument Spreadsheet (.ods). Export to the above formats or PDF. Multiple people can edit the documents simultaneously and chat about the changes in built in discussion pane, etc. Include dynamic variables from the web in your documents such as stock prices and such, etc, etc.. - Murray From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 6 23:41:45 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C897106566C for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 23:41:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sequethin@gmail.com) Received: from hs-out-0708.google.com (hs-out-0708.google.com [64.233.178.244]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54828FC0A for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 23:41:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sequethin@gmail.com) Received: by hs-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id m63so27752hsc.11 for ; Tue, 06 May 2008 16:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; bh=XpAKmE+ZeruVKPN6BJir5t/yXYOAVfHZGEQgey9q8XU=; b=rJFUhxke0cjNDeYr+lfe5zTVdmzC8jmnyn0Q1pKGpvL8wTPnp4vgIv0TxufPnvF/DmvZbcYuJF/X72E6UetuxavdhCXW95H82YtQQPYLgOInuwNigsTQYAE2d6+H2Xr7qVAsCRxTD4mnqJ4nWvJmhBQE8RCs6yXSQ/Zs07usuRE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=GpmFTXOY3Inaalk6nyMgY7YTXUiZz+JJSsaRAbV3vLBXwn+jvjGvKz4AIW/ZEMGgiD7WuyzsgcKaFuCGKi/6CZ63xrRyXXVVi3dpjRg2hXU82pcPeRcVbSIgzDVq5bK7RwIeZXUrV5C9jpEELk1Ltzhwnfb6Tg23D7AKjZVYjxI= Received: by 10.90.25.11 with SMTP id 11mr1884726agy.112.1210117303919; Tue, 06 May 2008 16:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.79? ( [70.107.189.251]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 27sm2489964wra.32.2008.05.06.16.41.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 06 May 2008 16:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: From: Michael Hernandez To: Jeremy C. Reed In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 19:41:40 -0400 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: where is a lightweight, simple word processor? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 23:41:45 -0000 On May 6, 2008, at 5:31 PM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I have been looking for a simple word processor that supports > formatted > text, different fonts and maybe bullet lists. And is close to > WYSIWYG. I > don't care about format it can save or import as long as I can find an > intermediate tool to do my conversions. I don't need tables. But if > it can > plug into another speller that would be nice but not required. Also > images > not required, but okay. Support for multiple languages would be nice > but > required right now. I will accept losing formatting attributes when > importing. Page breaks would be nice but not required. > > (I often receive and send press releases and other documents that > are in > different formats. I don't like losing all the formatting when I > send back > an edited document. I don't mind losing hidden metadata.) > > I found gwp but old 1999 code uses old gnome-libs. > > I found 1998 maxwell, but haven't figured out build yet on modern > system. > > siag's pw has crashed a few times on me. And I don't know if > maintained. > > Ted has worked for me sometimes and failed for me sometimes. I don't > know > if still maintained. > > abiword is too big. kword is too big. oowriter is too big. LyX is > too big. > I don't want to require KDE libraries, libgnome, teTeX, or other big > dependencies. I don't need hundreds of features just to be able to > edit > and provide simple document that has some formatted text. I don't > want to > manually type in RTF, XML, or OpenDocument formats. > > Maybe there is some GTK widget that provides a rich formatting editor? > > Maybe some rich format editor can be stripped out of some email > client or > HTML editor to be a standalone simple light word processor? > If you were using OS X I'd suggest Bean... Not sure what to tell you! --Mike H From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 00:15:22 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2956C1065677 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 00:15:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@ixsystems.com) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com (newknight.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093F68FC17 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 00:15:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matt@ixsystems.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5CE9BE87 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 16:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iXsystems.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.ixsystems.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 43431-10 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 16:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from client-110.nat.ixsystems.net (unknown [192.168.1.110]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.iXsystems.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BADCBE83 for ; Tue, 6 May 2008 16:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Olander Organization: iXsystems To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 16:42:38 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.5 References: <2a7894eb0805061609r327a47a6p19d0797fc42dfcb0@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a7894eb0805061609r327a47a6p19d0797fc42dfcb0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200805061642.38163.matt@ixsystems.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard Subject: Re: where is a lightweight, simple word processor? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 00:15:22 -0000 On Tuesday 06 May 2008 4:09 pm, Murray Stokely wrote: > On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > I have been looking for a simple word processor that supports formatted > > text, different fonts and maybe bullet lists. And is close to WYSIWYG. I > > don't care about format it can save or import as long as I can find an > > intermediate tool to do my conversions. I don't need tables. But if it > > can plug into another speller that would be nice but not required. Also > > images not required, but okay. Support for multiple languages would be > > nice but required right now. I will accept losing formatting attributes > > when importing. Page breaks would be nice but not required. > > ... > > > Maybe some rich format editor can be stripped out of some email client > > or HTML editor to be a standalone simple light word processor? > > Google Docs meets the basic requirements you listed here, but I'm > guessing you intentionally excluded it for other reasons? You can > import HTML files and plain text, Microsoft Word (.doc), Rich Text > (.rtf), OpenDocument Text (.odt), StarOffice (.sxw), Microsoft > PowerPoint (.ppt, .pps), Comma Separated Value (.csv), Microsoft Excel > (.xls) files, and OpenDocument Spreadsheet (.ods). Export to the > above formats or PDF. Multiple people can edit the documents > simultaneously and chat about the changes in built in discussion pane, > etc. Include dynamic variables from the web in your documents such as > stock prices and such, etc, etc.. We just did a collaborative project using Google Docs while I was in Europe. It worked great for our purposes. I, for one, welcome our Google overlords! :-P -matt From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 09:04:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06A5106567E for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 09:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com (nf-out-0910.google.com [64.233.182.188]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4E98FC0C for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 09:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rsidd120@gmail.com) Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id h3so206396nfh.33 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 02:04:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=kK0KkUULZgC8L6XcNG0wQ1LXOwa6R50DQKohcDj3agw=; b=qOl8pHhbQ72XEEjz8wh0qhNpuQcGhBCnNJsSrUQImKfCUt8C2orOPSam4vrAq2FqKjzj9vCJu/Eoei8Qpmj8MpEn1IcpyvetZZMRJcEQ8ZGcJWnGy7Hd7DQtOlGuy2nNbqHGWWbEX8EXDhKejil/FPWYoowGMEr8GmFKmrHPfIo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=SxS6kfcfX1oTHIOxPYPaG84sFE7/G1nmflot5x26bXF/nARjxIpjcnpXRW65uOhmG8KINX+ddWxXqKewBIC6XDWtw+mG0iPk2QXOKqb1hp1rajkhRZkh3gWq5S1B1Vdw+7Jv663mp9e199rK3JTkyXZlaSwunO7mDucUestPrYs= Received: by 10.78.195.10 with SMTP id s10mr474944huf.15.1210149393395; Wed, 07 May 2008 01:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.58.12 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 01:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6a506d980805070136m52130546q27b396a3b83c3f37@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:06:33 +0530 From: "Rahul Siddharthan" Sender: rsidd120@gmail.com To: "Jeremy C. Reed" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 455f09a5f1ace6e4 Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: where is a lightweight, simple word processor? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 09:04:21 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I have been looking for a simple word processor that supports formatted > text, different fonts and maybe bullet lists. And is close to WYSIWYG. I haven't used it very much but this looked promising: http://www.texmacs.org/ (Despite its name, it doesn't depend on TeX.) Rahul From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 09:36:09 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA021065674 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 09:36:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpetsmoker@rwxrwxrwx.net) Received: from mail.rwxrwxrwx.net (rwxrwxrwx.net [82.93.23.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5CB8FC16 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 09:36:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpetsmoker@rwxrwxrwx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mail.rwxrwxrwx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5E06D4A4 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 11:18:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.rwxrwxrwx.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.rwxrwxrwx.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RntdrrwTmpyB for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 11:18:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from phong.rwxrwxrwx.net (phong [192.168.100.13]) by mail.rwxrwxrwx.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 220856D49D for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 11:18:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by phong.rwxrwxrwx.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 7 May 2008 11:21:04 +0200 From: "Martin Tournoij" Received: by phong.rwxrwxrwx.net (tmda-sendmail, from uid 1001); Wed, 07 May 2008 11:21:04 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:21:02 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20080507092102.GA49968@rwxrwxrwx.net> References: <6a506d980805070136m52130546q27b396a3b83c3f37@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6a506d980805070136m52130546q27b396a3b83c3f37@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org, reed@reedmedia.net Cc: Subject: Re: where is a lightweight, simple word processor? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 09:36:09 -0000 On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 02:06:33PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > I have been looking for a simple word processor that supports formatted > > text, different fonts and maybe bullet lists. And is close to WYSIWYG. > > I haven't used it very much but this looked promising: > http://www.texmacs.org/ > (Despite its name, it doesn't depend on TeX.) Hm? [/ports/editors/texmacs]# grep _DEPENDS Makefile BUILD_DEPENDS= tex:${PORTSDIR}/print/teTeX-base LIB_DEPENDS= guile.18:${PORTSDIR}/lang/guile \ RUN_DEPENDS= tex:${PORTSDIR}/print/teTeX-base -- Martin Tournoij carpetsmoker@xs4all.nl http://www.daemonforums.org Forgive your enemies, but don't forget their names. -- John F. Kennedy From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 11:25:01 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3BC1065678 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 11:25:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ravna@nerdshack.com) Received: from smtprelay06.ispgateway.de (smtprelay06.ispgateway.de [80.67.18.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899578FC19 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 11:25:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ravna@nerdshack.com) Received: from [91.18.126.77] (helo=Toy.Firlefanz.org) by smtprelay06.ispgateway.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Jthlb-0002rD-W1 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 07 May 2008 13:25:00 +0200 Message-ID: <48219186.5060502@nerdshack.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 13:24:54 +0200 From: Ravna User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080423) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> <200805052010.04210.sigma.zx@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <200805052010.04210.sigma.zx@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Df-Sender: 501592 Subject: Re: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 11:25:01 -0000 >> What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) to >> use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? is there >> something better ? I'm using a ext3 partition. It supports files over 2GB, and can be read/written from both OSes. The IFS driver for ext on windows is very stable. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 13:34:29 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955B01065682 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 13:34:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 042C78FC17 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 13:34:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m47DYQFr058823; Wed, 7 May 2008 15:34:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m47DYPVN058822; Wed, 7 May 2008 15:34:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 15:34:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200805071334.m47DYPVN058822@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, carloshpf@oi.com.br In-Reply-To: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 07 May 2008 15:34:27 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, carloshpf@oi.com.br List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 13:34:29 -0000 Carlos Porto Filho wrote: > What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) > to use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? Well, I use a file server (FreeBSD) with NFS + Samba, so it can be accessed from both Windows and FreeBSD machines. Samba works surprisingly well, I even dare to say it works better than NFS. > is there something better than fat32? That question seems to imply that fat32 is not sufficient for what you need. So what exactly do you need that fat32 does not support? Usually, for multimedia files, fat32 works just fine. it doesn't support ownership, permissions and a few other things, but that doesn't matter much for multimedia files on your private home machine. If you do need to restrict access to some files, one solution is to put those on a separate fat32 FS and mount it with proper options (see mount_msdosfs(8): -u, -g, -m, -M) so only certain users or groups can access it. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "What is this talk of 'release'? We do not make software 'releases'. Our software 'escapes', leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in its wake." From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 7 22:41:06 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8382A106564A for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 22:41:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlsonmark@gmail.com) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.174]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5650C8FC16 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 22:41:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlsonmark@gmail.com) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so422697wfa.7 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 15:41:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=eLmcoyKQ/oAo8/DfbeRm0YTIOMyYkGWOqksKUReJ0x0=; b=SYAQEpYmTCmKUhSe+RHrTJEK4BeF2rDbjF2gOsBL1SJGEVuPyZsU8ekpG92HiotBBpD8WVTbeedbnnwZiajOS1nbhiBTOh9dEs21Pdvp1ndYuNk3VUZxvChdqQofzAyKVrO9M9hSKUN0PT6Vk52hRYl3yA+cZLIIxskZ1ZULpqY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=cOR0zrXRzk0g26FIijUPJRvxOvyvyHQo6c8YSXwXDM6kohk9EGhncjj7WUk3KlbIPXDE+4Ml9/GmA9ciAWkzM9TJg2tEZ6S/r9R8Afgr+RbFEjY5BBew08dPg3iL1BFrksQJp3r23TBKWJ4xubsyt0vznBcjQO+0Cgf9yeLEAIs= Received: by 10.142.71.2 with SMTP id t2mr1077690wfa.344.1210198489659; Wed, 07 May 2008 15:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.106.17 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 15:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 16:14:49 -0600 From: "Mark Carlson" To: "Sean G. McLaughlin" In-Reply-To: <200805052010.04210.sigma.zx@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <481FC49E.2040106@oi.com.br> <200805052010.04210.sigma.zx@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: file system X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 22:41:06 -0000 On 5/5/08, Sean G. McLaughlin wrote: > On Monday 05 May 2008 07:38:22 pm Carlos Porto Filho wrote: > > What file system do you use for a data partition (music, video..) to > > use between windows and freebsd in a dual boot system? is there > > something better than fat32? > > > You can "roll the dice" on NTFS-3G, or try to get Windows to read > FreeBSD's filesystems (there are drivers to do this, supposedly). I've used ffsdrv on XP before with excellent results. It even worked on a half-broken drive with partitions that had corrupt or non-readable superblocks. http://ffsdrv.sourceforge.net/ -Mark C. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 10 00:00:49 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D68F106564A for ; Sat, 10 May 2008 00:00:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from mail1.webmaster.com (mail1.webmaster.com [216.152.64.169]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98048FC16 for ; Sat, 10 May 2008 00:00:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from however by webmaster.com (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.3.R) with ESMTP id md50002044591.msg for ; Fri, 09 May 2008 16:50:05 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Freebsd-Chat@Freebsd. Org" Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:48:50 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Authenticated-Sender: joelkatz@webmaster.com X-Spam-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Fri, 09 May 2008 16:50:05 -0700 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 206.171.168.138 X-Return-Path: davids@webmaster.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail1.webmaster.com, Fri, 09 May 2008 16:50:06 -0700 Subject: Building 32-bit binaries on 64-bit 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 00:00:49 -0000 I've been looking for a way to build 32-bit x86 binaries on an AMD64 install of FreeBSD 6.3 STABLE. It has been an exercise in frustration with every technique hitting some other obstacle. Is there some easy way to do this that I'm overlooking? It's annoying that passing the default install of GCC a '-m32' causes it to sort of work. Trying to build a cross-compiler from the ports fails too. Why doesn't '-m32' just work? The libraries must already be there since I can run 32-bit binaries. Is it just missing/broken headers? http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=115784&cat= "We do not support general i386 binary building on freebsd/amd64." Why? As a more general question, shouldn't it be easy to build binaries for any supported FreeBSD platform on any other supported platform? DS From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 10 11:50:36 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35A61065670 for ; Sat, 10 May 2008 11:50:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (unknown [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A7E8FC1C for ; Sat, 10 May 2008 11:50:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m4ABoX8a018344; Sat, 10 May 2008 13:50:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id m4ABoWtA018343; Sat, 10 May 2008 13:50:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 13:50:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200805101150.m4ABoWtA018343@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.2-STABLE-20070808 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 10 May 2008 13:50:35 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Building 32-bit binaries on 64-bit 6.3 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 11:50:37 -0000 David Schwartz wrote: > I've been looking for a way to build 32-bit x86 binaries on an AMD64 > install of FreeBSD 6.3 STABLE. Doing it within a 32bit chroot (or jail) is probably the easiest way. At least it was for me. I simply took a 32bit install from an FTP mirror, installed it into /usr/i386, mounted devfs inside it (and mdfs on tmp), then chrooted into it, and everything worked as expected. Of course, if you have a 32bit world on some other box, you can simply make a copy of it for your chroot. Of course, be sure that your amd64 kernel contains the line "options COMPAT_IA32" (it's in GENERIC by default), so the i386 binary compatibility is enabled. You also have to make a link inside the chroot's /libexec: # cd libexec # ln ld-elf.so.1 ld-elf32.so.1 And finally, certain Makefiles (including our buildworld target) will be confused and think that you're attempting to cross-compile. In order to trick them into assuming that you're running on a 32bit kernel, you have to set these environment variables before: # export UNAME_m=i386 # export UNAME_p=i386 If you're using csh or tcsh, use this syntax instead: % setenv UNAME_m i386 % setenv UNAME_p i386 With the above settings, I was able to perform a full buildworld + installworld within a 32bit chroot on a 64bit host. The result was still a 32bit world, of course. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution." -- Robert Sewell