From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 30 15:15:45 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B1D106564A for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:15:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steinex@nognu.de) Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.159]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17218FC15 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:15:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from steinex@nognu.de) Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 13so614783fge.12 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.83.1 with SMTP id g1mr1734982fgb.18.1238424702627; Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haydn.nognu.de (haydn.nognu.de [81.169.170.112]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 12sm4000252fgg.27.2009.03.30.07.51.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:51:40 +0200 From: Frank Steinborn To: Howard Goldstein Message-ID: <20090330145140.GA45140@haydn.nognu.de> References: <49CC2533.9070001@queue.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <49CC2533.9070001@queue.to> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19 (2009-01-05) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need DNS secondarying X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:15:45 -0000 On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 09:00:35PM -0400, Howard Goldstein wrote: > Help, my DNS secondary has gone dark and I don't think he's coming back. > I really need a secondarying of my three domains (one a local law > office and the other two my vanity domains). These are low volume, > we're talking about 1000 additional DNS queries/day and the zone records > change maybe three or four times a year. The primary is on fiber at > ns0.queue.to/71.180.69.18 running tinydns. Not spam. Unfortunately not > pr0n either. In exchange I can secondary your stuff. Thanks, Howard, > Sarasota Florida US I can do this. Please contact me off-list and we can arrange it. Frank From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 31 20:30:46 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5F0106568C for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:30:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 177078FC14 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:30:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: (qmail 18698 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2009 20:30:45 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (HELO april.telenix.org) (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 31 Mar 2009 20:30:45 -0000 Message-ID: <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:31:07 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090121) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: michael References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Wojciech Puchar , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:30:47 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 michael wrote: Moved to FreeBSD-chat, all opinions really belong there. > > > Wojciech Puchar wrote: >>>> Tabbing is the worst form of indentation. It is *much* better to use >>>> spaces consistently. The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project. All else is just folks being stubborn, and there is too much of that already in software, that "my opinion is the only acceptable one" snobbery. Watch now while 10 different folks jump up to start pounding their personal drums ... >>> >> >> stupid discussion and off topic. everybody write code as he/she like, >> or as a team decided if it's not single person work. >> >> only end result matters. > you know real programmers code everything on one line. > sub > f{@s[$x,$y]=@s[($y+=$s[$x])%=@s,$x];$s[$x++]+$s[$y]-@s}@k=pop=~/../g;f$y+=hex$k[$x%@k]for@s=0..255;$x=1;$y=0;$/=\1;print$_^chr$s[f$x%=@s]for<> Now that one, I like! Reminds me of that hoary old "Obfuscated C" competition. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknSfYsACgkQz62J6PPcoOmhyACfYMAzxOZcmDnfCGr8Xs5QJGYW 85QAoKAz0hH/cPVaqNVNjX75sSfFaPk4 =pdMX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 31 20:35:40 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18B5106572E for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:35:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [IPv6:2001:4070:101:2::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6D78FC19 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:35:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n2VKZT0s020854; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:35:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id n2VKZTU6020851; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:35:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:35:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Chuck Robey In-Reply-To: <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> Message-ID: References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: michael , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:35:41 -0000 >>>>> Tabbing is the worst form of indentation. It is *much* better to use >>>>> spaces consistently. > > The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project. All else is just EXACTLY. but when i write my own program i do it to make it the way best for me. anyway - doing ANYHOW but including proper comments are always best. proper comments are like this: /* this procedure calculates ...blah blah... from data included in tables pointed by X and Y, and stores results into table pointed by argument Z */ someprocedure(const int *X,const int *Y, const int *Z,int length) { someworkhere(); coded_in_any_style_may_be_mess } example of BAD comments: a=b+3; //adds 3 to b and stores result to a From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 31 20:36:00 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176B61065709 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:36:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl [IPv6:2001:4070:101:2::1]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CD88FC0A for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:35:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n2VKZqb1020866; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:35:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Received: from localhost (wojtek@localhost) by wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) with ESMTP id n2VKZqFP020863; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:35:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wojtek@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:35:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar To: Chuck Robey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: michael , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:36:00 -0000 > > someprocedure(const int *X,const int *Y, const int *Z,int length) { sorry no const near Z ;) > someworkhere(); coded_in_any_style_may_be_mess > } > > > example of BAD comments: > > > a=b+3; //adds 3 to b and stores result to a > > > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 12:46:51 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE0110656F9 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:46:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from mail12.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail12.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96BF58FC0C for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:46:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (qmail 25689 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2009 12:20:10 -0000 Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org) ([66.92.78.145]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2009 12:20:10 -0000 Received: from lowell-desk.lan (lowell-desk.lan [172.30.250.6]) by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5165084A for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lowell-desk.lan (Postfix, from userid 1147) id 2E0D51D1B8; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:20:04 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 08:20:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> (Chuck Robey's message of "Tue\, 31 Mar 2009 16\:31\:07 -0400") Message-ID: <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 12:46:53 -0000 Chuck Robey writes: > The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project. Or at *least* per file. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 13:35:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6164E106564A for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:35:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975FB8FC1D for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:35:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n31DZUjp062213; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:35:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n31DZT6D062212; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:35:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:35:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Polytropon , William Gordon Rutherdale In-Reply-To: <20090401123512.ec165676.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-questions User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Polytropon , William Gordon Rutherdale List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:35:58 -0000 Note: I've redirected this to -chat. This thread does *not* belong on the -questions list. Polytropon wrote: > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > > You set the standard on a given project. You decide > > whether you are using spaces or tabs. If spaces, you decide how many > > spaces per indent level. You ask the programmers to submit code in that > > format. It doesn't jump around randomly from one line to the next. > > Okay, now I understand what you mean. "Consistency" refers to > the usage of spacing / tabbing for a given project that is > adopted by several programmers. Yes, I agree with that: It's > a very bad idea to have many different styles within the same > project. Of course. That's why the FreeBSD project has the style(9) manual page. Newly written code has to obey it, otherwise it will not go into the repository. Of course there are certain exceptions, e.g. for "contrib" code. > > You are trying to make it sound like a big problem, but it isn't. > > When I need to read / work with other's code, it's can develop > into problems. Natural habits like hitting the tab key are > very hard to change several times, for each project a different > rule. There's no problem with hitting the Tab key. Your editor takes care of the actual behaviour. For example, I have configured my editor to use literal tabs for Makefiles and shell scripts, and display them with 8 positions apart, but for Python programs display them only with 4 positions apart. For C source code, the behaviour depends on the project (directory). For the FreeBSD project, tabs with size 8 are used (according to style(9)), but for some other projects, spaces are inserted (4 or 8). For most other types of files, the key inserts various amounts of space characters. In all of those cases, I simply press the key to indent, and the key to dedent. There is no need to change habits. The editor takes care of it. I assume that every modern editor can be configured that way. > But the ability to read it is not the only important thing. It's > how you use it, because programmers usually do more than just > reading, they continue developing. The tab approach allows them > to have their individual viewing options without needing to > reformat the code. No, that won't work. In practice you will either have to adopt the original indentation style, or reformat the code. Just changing the tab size in your editor will break many things. Here's an example. I'll use /usr/include/stdio.h for this example because it's installed almost everywhere, even if your don't have /usr/src. $ less +100 /usr/include/stdio.h That command should show you the typedef declaration of struct __sFILE, which is about 30 lines. Note how the types, names and comment columns line up neatly. Now view the same with tab size 4: $ less -x4 +100 /usr/include/stdio.h See the difference? It's a complete mess. > But maybe if I pass ^TD8 code to you, you would want to > work with it in ^TD4. No, I wouldn't. If I did only minor changes, I would simply stick to the existing style of the file. And if I did substantial changes, I would probably reformat the whole file -- note that this does *not* only change the indentation style, but much more. Indentation is only a part of the style, and probably not even the most important part. > > > + you need more keypressing to get through the indentation with > > > the spaces, one keypress per space, while you only need one > > > keypress per tab (which equals one indentation level), > > > > Not true. You set up your editor settings to automatically do this for > > you. Most editors have this capability. > > Not all editors have this ability. Tell me a common editor that doesn't have that ability. And no, ee(1) doesn't count. I'm not aware of a FreeBSD developer who uses ee(1) for serious work. > Not every programmer uses vim, emacs or Eclipse. Some really > like the "old fashioned" ways like joe. Oh, good thing you mention joe. I'm typing this reply in joe right now. I use joe for almost 20 years, and it *does* support all of the features mentioned above. Best regards Oliver PS: Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9) should die. It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems. The very existence of this thread proves this point. -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "... there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ deficiencies." -- C.A.R. Hoare, ACM Turing Award Lecture, 1980 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 13:51:15 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2234B106566B for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:51:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1E68FC08 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:51:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n31DonYS063175; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:51:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n31DonkS063174; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:50:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:50:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904011350.n31DonkS063174@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, will.rutherdale@utoronto.ca In-Reply-To: <49D359D4.60103@utoronto.ca> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-questions User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:51:13 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, will.rutherdale@utoronto.ca List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:51:15 -0000 (Note: Redirected to -chat.) William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > There is a very logical reason in C for wanting to put the opening brace > of an 'if' statement on a separate line: preprocessor statements. The preprocessor is one of the biggest mistakes in the design of the C language. This is one of the reasons why. :-) > int foo( int x ) > { > #ifdef SCENARIO_A > if ( x<3 ) { > #else > if ( x<2 ) { > #endif > // . . . > } > // . . . > } Personally I think that code intermixed with #ifdef stuff looks butt ugly and is difficult to read, no matter where you put the braces. I would rather try to refactor the code, so the #if stuff is separate and doesn't rupture the function content, like this: #ifdef SCENARIO_A # define FOO_CONDITION (x < 3) #else # define FOO_CONDITION (x < 2) #endif int foo( int x ) { if (FOO_CONDITION) { // . . . } // . . . } Problem solved, and the whole thing is much more readable. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success." -- Dennis M. Ritchie. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 14:21:22 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BA9106566C for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:21:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E1D8FC18 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:21:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n31DfQor065131 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@albert.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n31DfQAQ065130 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:41:26 -0700 From: David Wolfskill To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="v/4eu41oUtfYjxrl" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 14:21:22 -0000 --v/4eu41oUtfYjxrl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom one of the systems here, running 7.1-STABLE as of 11 Jan 2009: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 05:30:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Charlie Root To: root@albert.catwhisker.org Subject: albert.catwhisker.org monthly run output Doing login accounting: lynette 2903.16 total -410169.04 david -413072.21 -- End of monthly output -- So does this mean that I have evidence that I (david) actually used that particular computer far less than my spouse (lynette) did...? :-} ["No, really -- I didn't use it at all! In fact, I used it for a *negative* amount of time, so I could use it some more and still never have used it!" Yeah, right....] Peace, david --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil. See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --v/4eu41oUtfYjxrl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAknTbwUACgkQmprOCmdXAD3OHACeKxB0zemgR6J27K1XgiAh44LZ 2egAnipb/bkfyLD6vk8w2N1Ev+Mx55wn =1nAy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --v/4eu41oUtfYjxrl-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 15:12:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425631065673 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:12:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com (fk-out-0910.google.com [209.85.128.185]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C534E8FC1D for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:12:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b27so42456fka.11 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 08:12:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mOiC9p2Lsw1GSx3Popv26UCT8hskwJ4bOhGG6A2VpEY=; b=D5BfZ24QBENfOrcLs8czCKV5aRJDpE+SudWxsRV8yQDTV7JjHAv58WEoT/TU0kBHe0 YYaXgKfE8DRQZ9TsZkPTLTMA/7XTGN05A3r6a5gDvcCWiKMnbFAjDZxPcLC3/rW5TNTK 1lmY6knUtajxoMELOosQ3jThBI63yS7RcmcY0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=iqiaswu/GPwmn7TRvLenA8W62B/3wkLTY4IwfvXspuItzk7NGsJJSaZNzNDo16d5yR V0FLZyI41OR4b61faEmMj5Lbnr+4M5K2QtRywJtxCtsZYTzGWpoziWf5sPHshjwaSqwk T88syamoF3cqaf5hZ0dItWwkIKPj0lkPaFjMk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.198.20 with SMTP id a20mr2871277muq.29.1238597181790; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 07:46:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:46:21 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jayton Garnett To: David Wolfskill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:12:04 -0000 > > > ["No, really -- I didn't use it at all! In fact, I used it for a > *negative* amount of time, so I could use it some more and still > never have used it!" Yeah, right....] > Negatives are the new positives. Clearly your spouse has not caught on to this yet ;-) Jay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 15:41:53 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7DD1065677 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:41:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55F08FC16 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:41:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n31FewX8067991; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:41:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n31Fev4A067990; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:40:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:40:57 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, david@catwhisker.org In-Reply-To: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:41:22 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, david@catwhisker.org List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:41:53 -0000 David Wolfskill wrote: > [-- text/plain, encoding quoted-printable, charset: us-ascii, 30 lines --] > > From one of the systems here, running 7.1-STABLE as of 11 Jan 2009: > > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 05:30:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: Charlie Root > To: root@albert.catwhisker.org > Subject: albert.catwhisker.org monthly run output > > > Doing login accounting: > lynette 2903.16 > total -410169.04 > david -413072.21 > > -- End of monthly output -- > > So does this mean that I have evidence that I (david) actually used > that particular computer far less than my spouse (lynette) did...? :-} > > ["No, really -- I didn't use it at all! In fact, I used it for a > *negative* amount of time, so I could use it some more and still > never have used it!" Yeah, right....] I'm not exactly sure if you expect a serious answer, but here it is anyway. Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one for lynette (2903 hours would be about 120 days). Probably your /var/log/wtmp file has been corrupted. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung." -- Thomas Funke From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 16:03:52 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FEC81065670 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:03:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (adsl-63-193-123-122.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.123.122]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0355D8FC12 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:03:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from david@catwhisker.org) Received: from albert.catwhisker.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n31G3pJ7066562 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@albert.catwhisker.org) Received: (from david@localhost) by albert.catwhisker.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n31G3pIe066561 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:03:51 -0700 From: David Wolfskill To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <20090401160351.GG31409@albert.catwhisker.org> References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RAD8y4JU75Gxa8ob" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Subject: Re: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:03:52 -0000 --RAD8y4JU75Gxa8ob Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:40:57PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote: > ... > I'm not exactly sure if you expect a serious answer, =46rom -chat@? Surely you must be joking! :-) > but here it is anyway. >=20 > Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one > for lynette (2903 hours would be about 120 days). > Probably your /var/log/wtmp file has been corrupted. OK; thanks. Peace, david --=20 David H. Wolfskill david@catwhisker.org Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil. See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key. --RAD8y4JU75Gxa8ob Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAknTkGYACgkQmprOCmdXAD05bACePK/Mp85l+tdwzghJBJY/tIql 5EkAmwWs6ay4uxwQ+AHjo7T3yF3Za6wr =18SD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RAD8y4JU75Gxa8ob-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 19:08:41 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E06106566C for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron1.sfsu.edu (iron1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E4F8FC27 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAGdR00mC1Apk/2dsb2JhbADBYgEJBYcIiE2CSIEzBoUr Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.100]) by iron1.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Apr 2009 11:40:19 -0700 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3FP1HF555) with ESMTP id 2009040111401439-847 ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:40:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:40:13 -0700 (PDT) From: KAYVEN RIESE To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Polytropon , William Gordon Rutherdale In-Reply-To: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3FP1HF555 | January 28, 2009) at 04/01/2009 11:40:16, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 04/01/2009 11:40:18, Serialize complete at 04/01/2009 11:40:18 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-758783491-1238611213=:1164" Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:08:44 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-758783491-1238611213=:1164 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Note: I've redirected this to -chat. This thread > does *not* belong on the -questions list. > > Polytropon wrote: > > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > In all of those cases, I simply press the key to > indent, and the key to dedent. There is no > need to change habits. The editor takes care of it. > I assume that every modern editor can be configured that > way. Since this is in chat, I guess I feel okay about making a fool of myself. Not everybody wants to deal with every week's new set of script kiddle gobbleygook. I hold a BSCS from the "late cretaceous" of 1989. After that I started studying molecular biology under the mistaken assumption that the blythering human race would stop idiotically barrelling into oblivion chopping off the icecaps at breakneck speed. Currently, having idioticaly tried to get back into computer science, I am enrolled in an MSCS at San Francisco State University. I keep crashing my kernels and keep getting insulted and rejected by the "online open source community" so I guess take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I learned the vi editor in 1985 and I am comfortable living on command lines without this "modern editor" nonsense. I have to say contemplating getting fired because some tyrant is going to bite my head off for failing to look at page 1234 of the documentation that clearly states that I MUST use a "modern editor" that will automate tabbing of my code makes me want to blow my head off right now and save the damn world the trouble. > Best regards > Oliver > > PS: Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9) > should die. It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has > no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems. > The very existence of this thread proves this point. I am now very confused. I thought I was arguing with this person, and now it appears we agree. Next, I'll be arguing with myself. > > --=20 > Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. > Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch=E4ftsfuehrun= g: > secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M=FC= n- > chen, HRB 125758, Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Geb= hart > > FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd > > "... there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way > is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies and > the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ > deficiencies." -- C.A.R. Hoare, ACM Turing Award Lecture, 1980 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* ---559023410-758783491-1238611213=:1164-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 20:09:14 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45861065704 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:09:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: from mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA188FC17 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:09:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: (qmail 16314 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2009 20:09:13 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (HELO april.telenix.org) (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2009 20:09:13 -0000 Message-ID: <49D3CA03.4090208@telenix.org> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:09:39 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090121) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: matt donovan References: <49D24F4A.3060900@telenix.org> <20090331222207.GB7661@lonesome.com> <28283d910903311903q76d4a6fdjda6daa35313c5047@mail.gmail.com> <49D2D32D.3020103@telenix.org> <28283d910903311941g72979cb8k9580ebb503f411eb@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <28283d910903311941g72979cb8k9580ebb503f411eb@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, flz@freebsd.org Subject: Re: why was XFree86 dropped for ports? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:09:14 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I can't justify keeping this is ports any longer, I think it violates the list's rules, no matter how much I like this thread, so I'm moving it to -chat. If you think I'm wrong, I guess it could be moved again. matt donovan wrote: > > > > > I don't know git anywhere's near as well as I know cvs, but it seems > to me that > xorg doesn't have any TAGS so you can't ask for a particular > release, isn't that > true? I think that is probably a comment on git, not Xorg. I > guess, seeing > that there's about 1/4 the amount of work involved in updating > xFree86 versus > Xorg, I didn't expect that it was a work thing. Finally, I really > don't like > the fact that Xorg comes in all of those little packages, so that > without our > ports system, it might be prohibitively difficult to assemble Xorg. > Like it > would be, I suppose, for KDE. I *like* how you can deal with > XFree86 as one > item. If there was some way to get KDE as one compileable tarball, > that would > be a good thing also. > > > > Xorg doesn't fully need to be recompiled it was one giant package until > they decided it would be easier for developers to break up the system to > smaller ones. For instance lets say x-server 1.6 came out called xorg > 7.5 well you will only have to recompile x-server really. > > Also I went by Xfree86 webpage which states last stable release is from > December 2008 before that it was Aug. 2007 Actually, seeing as the subdirectories of Xorg aren't linked into any overall Makefile, you usually need to use some shell script, in order to compile Xorg, and I think that's one big reason it takes so long to build. If things can't take advantage of Make's ability to detect date stamps on things and actually reasonably determine what to build and what to skip, then of course it takes longer. I can't really understand why they decided to skip that part of things, even keeping their separate packages. An example of what I mean, if you build all of our ports (I really mean just a subdirectory like maybe devel or graphics) and then decided to issue the "make" again (just the default make, like a make all) and checked the timing, the time for the second run thru would be a tiny fraction of the first run, all because our make detects the presence of things (in our case, cookie files) and does things really faster. I don't see why Xorg would skip this step, it only need them to specifyu the use of a hierarchy, and a top Makefile. Both easy to do. I think they took their breaking things up way too far. I have to say here, probably, that xorg develops things at a way faster rate, I've seen that's true. I haven't yet done a rebuild of the latest XFree86, I wonder if they even have things like compiz ... kde4.2 has convinced me that it's necessary. I guess I just wish that the Xorg folks didn't do such a complete job of breaking things up. I was hoping that someone else, someone who knows git better than I, would validate for me the point, dies git have tags (I saw that Xorg uses git)? Maybe it feeds from my imperfect understanding of git, but it seems to be missing any ability either to tag something as "RELEASE_14", or to ask for a current release from any particular branch. I'm not saying it's this way, I am saying that I'm wondering if it is, cause I couldn't spot anything like it when I looked over the docs. If you know git well enough, could you comment on that? Cause, if it were true, I guess I would consider myself justified in staying away from most git things (I *like* tags and branches, and tracking current). It seems to work really well for Linux, though, but I guess everyone knows about the massive differences in BSD development versus Linux. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknTygMACgkQz62J6PPcoOnd7wCggfyrgx2BbiSASrcihoC3x9QO as0An3BRZctScDWi4obKRNgaM7eNrW3H =1Q3u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 20:27:05 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3C9106564A for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:27:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: from mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369828FC12 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:27:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: (qmail 19739 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2009 20:27:04 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (HELO april.telenix.org) (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail1.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2009 20:27:04 -0000 Message-ID: <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 16:27:31 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090121) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lowell Gilbert References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> In-Reply-To: <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:27:05 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lowell Gilbert wrote: > Chuck Robey writes: > >> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project. > > Or at *least* per file. Umm, no, per project. Folks are too pushed into errors when a project has 29 different styles. I don't like folks who try to make rules for the entire world (and they do, you know it and I know it) but it is a big help in making all stuff inside one project be formatted the same. I could really easily give you obvious examples of where this is needed (consider the include files for a source file). Yes, certainly, there are exceptions to this, but it's correct (being per project) in the huge majority of cases, right? Maybe I don't have enough trust in some folks, that they'll make the right decision. About 1/3 of the folks I used to teach C to, I had to drop, because they couldn't (wouldn't) accept the need to stay with a style, and that was only my rules (in teaching) per file. If I can't get that percentage of folks to appreciate things, I guess I just don't trust everyone to make sense on this. I had some real arguments from some people on this, it makes me sure that they were serious, not just looking to stop what had turned out to be a boring subject for themselves. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknTzjMACgkQz62J6PPcoOkO7wCfVv4IzN+euqIsND22g2aS31z8 vxoAnAiFN2YFyuhA+d2nN34YTdbkKCdP =jjlq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 20:58:20 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4DD106567A for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:58:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037288FC1B for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:58:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-196-37-253.dynamic.qsc.de [92.196.37.253]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D9D3D062; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:39:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n31KdeCF001445; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:39:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:39:40 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Polytropon , William Gordon Rutherdale Message-Id: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <20090401123512.ec165676.freebsd@edvax.de> <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: William Gordon Rutherdale , Oliver Fromme , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:58:20 -0000 First of all, thanks for redirection. On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:35:29 +0200 (CEST), Oliver Fromme wrote: > There's no problem with hitting the Tab key. Your editor > takes care of the actual behaviour. For example, I have > configured my editor to use literal tabs for Makefiles > and shell scripts, and display them with 8 positions apart, > but for Python programs display them only with 4 positions > apart. For C source code, the behaviour depends on the > project (directory). For the FreeBSD project, tabs with > size 8 are used (according to style(9)), but for some other > projects, spaces are inserted (4 or 8). For most other > types of files, the key inserts various amounts > of space characters. It's good to have this configuration on a per-project base, instead of needing to set this manually (and change it according to the project you're working on at a given moment). And as I agreed, as long as there's a guideline one can follow, it's not that bad. What's bad is when several styles are mixed, e. g. int foo(int x, int y) { int z; /* intended by 4 spaces */ struct moo { int pups; /* a tab here, shown at width 8 */ int furz; } /* and 4 spaces again */ You'll be surprised how ugly the code looks when ^TD != 8. :-) > In all of those cases, I simply press the key to > indent, and the key to dedent. There is no > need to change habits. The editor takes care of it. > I assume that every modern editor can be configured that > way. Even "old fashioned" ones can, take the mcedit (Midnight Commander Editor) and joe (Joe's own editor) into mind. I think even the simple vi can. > No, that won't work. In practice you will either have to > adopt the original indentation style, or reformat the > code. Just changing the tab size in your editor will > break many things. Maybe I expressed in an unelegant way: When tabs are used, you can set the tab width to your individual preferences. If spaces are used, you cannot do this anymore, you have to live with the spaces ("corporate guideline"). The only chance you have is to set tab width = number of spaces per indent level, and finally convert them back into spaces. But that's ugly. > Here's an example. I'll use /usr/include/stdio.h for this > example because it's installed almost everywhere, even if > your don't have /usr/src. > > $ less +100 /usr/include/stdio.h > > That command should show you the typedef declaration of > struct __sFILE, which is about 30 lines. Note how the > types, names and comment columns line up neatly. > Now view the same with tab size 4: > > $ less -x4 +100 /usr/include/stdio.h > > See the difference? It's a complete mess. Yes, it is. The only chance here would be to completely use spaces - use spaces ONLY, no tabs. But that doesn't conform to the style of FreeBSD. > > But maybe if I pass ^TD8 code to you, you would want to > > work with it in ^TD4. > > No, I wouldn't. If I did only minor changes, I would > simply stick to the existing style of the file. And if > I did substantial changes, I would probably reformat the > whole file -- note that this does *not* only change the > indentation style, but much more. Indentation is only > a part of the style, and probably not even the most > important part. I would need to add that I use ^TD8 so the "tabular example" you gave above would work, so only if you rely on a tab with = 8, everything looks fine, e. g. comments in structs. With ^TD4, it would get messy, as you illustrated. So there would be no practical use in using ^TD4 if this special case would apply. Only for "plain code" (one statement per line, comments on separate lines) it would be okay. > > > > + you need more keypressing to get through the indentation with > > > > the spaces, one keypress per space, while you only need one > > > > keypress per tab (which equals one indentation level), > > > > > > Not true. You set up your editor settings to automatically do this for > > > you. Most editors have this capability. > > > > Not all editors have this ability. > > Tell me a common editor that doesn't have that ability. > And no, ee(1) doesn't count. I'm not aware of a FreeBSD > developer who uses ee(1) for serious work. My two examples above, joe and mcedit: Going forth and back in indentation would require one keypress per space character, in opposite to one keypress per tab (which equals one indentation level). But again, they don't count as serious editors, do they? :-) > > Not every programmer uses vim, emacs or Eclipse. Some really > > like the "old fashioned" ways like joe. > > Oh, good thing you mention joe. I'm typing this reply > in joe right now. I use joe for almost 20 years, and > it *does* support all of the features mentioned above. Well, joe was my first Linux and then FreeBSD editor, and it got a lot of new features (such as code highlighting). If you are familiar with TP / WS key codes (^KB ^KK ^KM ^KE ^KX ^TZ and so forth), it's a real powerful editor. Finally, I'd like to add that I've not always been such a "tabbing nazi". In KC-BASIC, my first programming language, I didn't use indentation (allthough it was completely possible) and later, when I learned TurboPascal for school, I used one (!) space for indentation, no spaces to make the code look tidy, and as many instructions per line as it was possible. With my introduction to UNIX (i. e. WEGA) I found that the standard tabbing with a width of 8 is the best to read and to handle - that's my very individual opinion. function st(x,y as integer):integer; begin x=sk(aa[q].x+rs(r,10,12); if(y=0)then begin x=sk1(ww[e],x+x0+rs(x,100*y,5); y=y+x; end; return x-y; end; Terrible! :-) -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 22:08:47 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E7F1065674 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:08:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: from mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0F88FC13 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:08:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-chat-local@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (qmail 21471 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2009 22:08:41 -0000 Received: from dsl092-078-145.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net (HELO be-well.ilk.org) ([66.92.78.145]) (envelope-sender ) by mail3.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2009 22:08:41 -0000 Received: by be-well.ilk.org (Postfix, from userid 1147) id 04DA45084D; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:08:41 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:08:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org> (Chuck Robey's message of "Wed\, 01 Apr 2009 16\:27\:31 -0400") Message-ID: <44vdpo81sn.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:08:47 -0000 Chuck Robey writes: > Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> Chuck Robey writes: >> >>> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project. >> >> Or at *least* per file. > > Umm, no, per project. Folks are too pushed into errors when a project has 29 > different styles. If you write all your code from scratch, you can do that. I don't have experience with non-trivial projects that *don't* include substantial amounts of third-party code. Reformatting third-party code to fit your style is a mistake if you want to ever take another drop of that code. When there's more than one style in a particular file, however, somebody needs to be slapped with a dead fish. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Apr 1 23:57:39 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AF3106566B for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:57:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8348FC12 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:57:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F4B06D449; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:57:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 55E7B844B1; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 01:57:38 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: KAYVEN RIESE References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:57:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: (KAYVEN RIESE's message of "Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:40:13 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: William Gordon Rutherdale , Polytropon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:57:39 -0000 KAYVEN RIESE writes: > [...] I hold a BSCS from the "late cretaceous" of 1989. After that I > started studying molecular biology [...] having idioticaly tried to > get back into computer science [...] Have you considered combining the two (computer science and molecular biology) and going into bioinformatics? DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 00:20:08 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6F81065674 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:20:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from will.rutherdale@utoronto.ca) Received: from mail.vex.net (smaug.vex.net [208.76.104.132]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247298FC14 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:20:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from will.rutherdale@utoronto.ca) Received: from [192.168.110.8] (unknown [207.35.13.77]) by mail.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 867901707F for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 20:04:47 -0400 From: William Gordon Rutherdale User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:20:08 -0000 KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Oliver Fromme wrote: > >> Polytropon wrote: >> > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > >> In all of those cases, I simply press the key to >> indent, and the key to dedent. There is no >> need to change habits. The editor takes care of it. >> I assume that every modern editor can be configured that >> way. > > Since this is in chat, I guess I feel okay about making a fool > of myself. Not everybody wants to deal with every week's new > set of script kiddle gobbleygook. I hold a BSCS from the > "late cretaceous" of 1989. After that I started studying > molecular biology under the mistaken assumption that the > blythering human race would stop idiotically barrelling into > oblivion chopping off the icecaps at breakneck speed. Currently, > having idioticaly tried to get back into computer science, I am > enrolled in an MSCS at San Francisco State University. I keep > crashing my kernels and keep getting insulted and rejected by > the "online open source community" so I guess take what I have > to say with a grain of salt. > > I learned the vi editor in 1985 and I am comfortable living on > command lines without this "modern editor" nonsense. I have to > say contemplating getting fired because some tyrant is going > to bite my head off for failing to look at page 1234 of the documentation > that clearly states that I MUST use a "modern editor" that will > automate tabbing of my code makes me want to blow my head off > right now and save the damn world the trouble. > > >> Best regards >> Oliver >> >> PS: Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9) >> should die. It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has >> no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems. >> The very existence of this thread proves this point. > > I am now very confused. I thought I was arguing with this person, > and now it appears we agree. Next, I'll be arguing with myself. > YOU are confused? I read your email and see that you quoted me as saying what someone else wrote. You quote ME as saying that stuff about " to dedent". In fact I did not write that. The other guy wrote that. I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life, at least until this paragraph. In fact, I'm not convinced that it IS a word. Regarding your other rant, I am (slightly) older than the president of the United States, with an old-style university background in Mathematics and Computer Science, and I don't see why you're so bothered over a "modern" editor with capabilities approaching that of editors that were available in the 1970s, such as Wordstar. What exactly is your problem with configuring your editor, to the point that you have to blow your head off? -Will From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 00:52:10 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE551106564A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:52:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron1.sfsu.edu (iron1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB2F8FC0A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:52:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAEup00mC1Apk/2dsb2JhbAC/HAEJBYZ4iE2CSoEzBoUr Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.100]) by iron1.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Apr 2009 17:52:10 -0700 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3FP1HF555) with ESMTP id 2009040117520749-891 ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:52:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:52:07 -0700 (PDT) From: KAYVEN RIESE To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3FP1HF555 | January 28, 2009) at 04/01/2009 17:52:07, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 04/01/2009 17:52:10, Serialize complete at 04/01/2009 17:52:10 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-851401618-1238633527=:29317" Cc: William Gordon Rutherdale , Polytropon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:52:10 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-851401618-1238633527=:29317 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > KAYVEN RIESE writes: >> [...] I hold a BSCS from the "late cretaceous" of 1989. After that I >> started studying molecular biology [...] having idioticaly tried to >> get back into computer science [...] > > Have you considered combining the two (computer science and molecular > biology) and going into bioinformatics? disaster. data mining people don't give a @*&# about the facts. just like all the financial freeks that don't give a @*#& about the icecaps. > > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* ---559023410-851401618-1238633527=:29317-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 00:53:37 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2F11065673 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron3.sfsu.edu (iron3.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.128]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE928FC15 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:53:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAP6m00mC1Apk/2dsb2JhbAC/JgEJBYZ1iE2CSoEzBoUr Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.100]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 01 Apr 2009 17:53:36 -0700 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3FP1HF555) with ESMTP id 2009040117533469-892 ; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:53:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) From: KAYVEN RIESE To: William Gordon Rutherdale In-Reply-To: <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3FP1HF555 | January 28, 2009) at 04/01/2009 17:53:34, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 04/01/2009 17:53:36, Serialize complete at 04/01/2009 17:53:36 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:53:38 -0000 On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > KAYVEN RIESE wrote: >> >> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Oliver Fromme wrote: >> >>> Polytropon wrote: >>> > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: >> >>> In all of those cases, I simply press the key to >>> indent, and the key to dedent. There is no >>> need to change habits. The editor takes care of it. >>> I assume that every modern editor can be configured that >>> way. >> >> Since this is in chat, I guess I feel okay about making a fool >> of myself. Not everybody wants to deal with every week's new >> set of script kiddle gobbleygook. I hold a BSCS from the >> "late cretaceous" of 1989. After that I started studying >> molecular biology under the mistaken assumption that the >> blythering human race would stop idiotically barrelling into >> oblivion chopping off the icecaps at breakneck speed. Currently, >> having idioticaly tried to get back into computer science, I am >> enrolled in an MSCS at San Francisco State University. I keep >> crashing my kernels and keep getting insulted and rejected by >> the "online open source community" so I guess take what I have >> to say with a grain of salt. >> >> I learned the vi editor in 1985 and I am comfortable living on >> command lines without this "modern editor" nonsense. I have to >> say contemplating getting fired because some tyrant is going >> to bite my head off for failing to look at page 1234 of the documentation >> that clearly states that I MUST use a "modern editor" that will >> automate tabbing of my code makes me want to blow my head off >> right now and save the damn world the trouble. >> >> >>> Best regards >>> Oliver >>> >>> PS: Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9) >>> should die. It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has >>> no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems. >>> The very existence of this thread proves this point. >> >> I am now very confused. I thought I was arguing with this person, >> and now it appears we agree. Next, I'll be arguing with myself. >> > YOU are confused? I read your email and see that you quoted me as saying > what someone else wrote. You quote ME as saying that stuff about > " to dedent". In fact I did not write that. The other guy wrote > that. I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life, at least > until this paragraph. In fact, I'm not convinced that it IS a word. > > Regarding your other rant, I am (slightly) older than the president of the > United States, with an old-style university background in Mathematics and > Computer Science, and I don't see why you're so bothered over a "modern" > editor with capabilities approaching that of editors that were available in > the 1970s, such as Wordstar. > > What exactly is your problem with configuring your editor, to the point that > you have to blow your head off? I've blown my kernel. I can't get anything to work anymore. > > -Will > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 01:23:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AF4106566B for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 01:23:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18E18FC16 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 01:23:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA77A6D43F; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 01:23:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CB5D5844B1; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 03:23:03 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: KAYVEN RIESE References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 03:23:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: (KAYVEN RIESE's message of "Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:52:07 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <8663hnalxk.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: William Gordon Rutherdale , Polytropon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:23:05 -0000 KAYVEN RIESE writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > Have you considered combining the two (computer science and > > molecular biology) and going into bioinformatics? > disaster. data mining people don't give a @*&# about the facts. I'm not sure to whom you refer as "data mining people". If you think bioinformatics is about data mining, you are sorely mistaken. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 08:10:30 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C044D106566B for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:10:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282278FC23 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:10:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n328A5Jl008623; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:10:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n328A5Gl008622; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:10:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:10:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904020810.n328A5Gl008622@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:10:29 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 08:10:31 -0000 William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > [...] I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my > life, at least until this paragraph. In fact, I'm not convinced > that it IS a word. It's a technical term, sometimes used in the context of code editors to denote the opposite of indent. For example, suppose I have this in my editor: def somefunction (myargs): if somecondition: return 42 The cursore is behind the "42". Now I press , and the cursor goes to column 8 in the next line, right below the "r" of the return command. This feature is called auto-indent. Now I press the key *once*, and the cursor goes back four positions so it is below the "i" of the if command. This feature is called dedent. It doesn't actually matter whether those positions are represented with tabs or spaces internally. In fact I don't *want* to know. The editor should do the right thing if it is configured correctly. Regarding the "modern editors" that I mentioned: These features existed in editors 15 years ago already, so my definition of "modern" is not that narrow. Also, most incarnations of vi support these features today, but there are a few exceptions (for example, /usr/bin/vi on Solaris is a little bit brain-damaged, but you can easily install vim from a package). Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Perl will consistently give you what you want, unless what you want is consistency." -- Larry Wall From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 12:40:58 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04795106566B for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:40:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from tim.des.no (tim.des.no [194.63.250.121]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FDE8FC15 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:40:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from ds4.des.no (des.no [84.49.246.2]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2C46D43F; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:40:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8DB4C844BD; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:40:56 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Oliver Fromme References: <200904020810.n328A5Gl008622@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:40:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200904020810.n328A5Gl008622@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:10:05 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: <861vsb8bzb.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:40:58 -0000 Oliver Fromme writes: > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > > [...] I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life, > > at least until this paragraph. In fact, I'm not convinced that it > > IS a word. > It's a technical term, No, the correct term is "outdent". DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 13:57:15 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADB4106564A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:57:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE298FC0A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:57:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n32DunYE023620; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:57:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n32DunH9023619; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:56:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:56:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, des@des.no In-Reply-To: <861vsb8bzb.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:57:12 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, des@des.no List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 13:57:15 -0000 Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > > > [...] I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life, > > > at least until this paragraph. In fact, I'm not convinced that it > > > IS a word. > > It's a technical term, > > No, the correct term is "outdent". It probably depends on who you ask. For example, the Python people call it "dedent". I've also heard it from many Eclipse developers. On the other hand, I've rarely heard anyone using the word "outdent". YMMV, I guess. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd Python is executable pseudocode. Perl is executable line noise. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 14:32:04 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02870106566B for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:32:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from mx02.dls.net (mx02.dls.net [216.145.245.198]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75A58FC0C for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:32:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from [216.145.235.73] (helo=emailrob.com) by mx02.dls.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LpNxa-0007Bo-4d; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:32:02 -0500 Message-ID: <49D4BE50.4000007@emailrob.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:32:00 +0100 From: spellberg_robert User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:32:04 -0000 hi, muffy; hi, biff --- golly, gee_whillikers, kids, i always thought it was "undent"; equal length, minimum diff. see you all at the malt_shop, after the sock_hop. rob Oliver Fromme wrote: > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > Oliver Fromme writes: > > > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote: > > > > [...] I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life, > > > > at least until this paragraph. In fact, I'm not convinced that it > > > > IS a word. > > > It's a technical term, > > > > No, the correct term is "outdent". > > It probably depends on who you ask. For example, the > Python people call it "dedent". I've also heard it from > many Eclipse developers. On the other hand, I've rarely > heard anyone using the word "outdent". YMMV, I guess. > > Best regards > Oliver From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 14:53:27 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9067106566B for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:53:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from thyme.infocus-llc.com (server.infocus-llc.com [206.156.254.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2B98FC0C for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:53:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (c-75-64-197-185.hsd1.ms.comcast.net [75.64.197.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by thyme.infocus-llc.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DED537B572; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:36:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 497B961C44; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:36:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:36:54 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, david@catwhisker.org Message-ID: <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net> References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de> X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19-fullermd.4 (2009-01-05) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.94.2, clamav-milter version 0.94.2 on thyme.infocus-llc.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: Re: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 14:53:28 -0000 On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:40:57PM +0200 I heard the voice of Oliver Fromme, and lo! it spake thus: > > Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one for lynette > (2903 hours would be about 120 days). That's actually very easy to pull off. Just open 4 terminals on the 1st and walk away. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 15:00:56 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DB91065670 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:00:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bw0-f164.google.com (mail-bw0-f164.google.com [209.85.218.164]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2518FC12 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:00:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: by bwz8 with SMTP id 8so543181bwz.43 for ; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 08:00:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wL2A9fo350SljwzHieOJGQULin/FyuC+1dTtcXP9KQs=; b=DScFeV8yOHvY6y4bRW9IVzEdDVBq+LW3XH9XeLjoPKlE4ab1oz3v0cIxo/3q7Skkyy fHcGuCKckfPAd4JaSNUbfudnoCwYHqosumCxjjNPd5Ky3fz76BLC5ODUcUDqGiz1wInJ eAs+Pc7ufw5XVbrdYBrg0iXxm1sDscLKvJAng= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=XYO3ASojOhKf7xPdgdLyuJ4UMJg30UPMuj35JMmYdys13TrQVn5bS5k8EMSSGD4nTR k23bM+AjifXSfGYEVhh1pYRKbtUZbusthR+L7JFkYMngjE23Qyu/DOm5inuPC9N+hTul hTNUJk/ZE9qhVOpCPxdMy4rwwAaJ9eRLkQADM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.8.17 with SMTP id l17mr24963mui.125.1238682547403; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 07:29:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <861vsb8bzb.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:29:07 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jayton Garnett To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, des@des.no Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:00:57 -0000 What about exdent or unident? Surely we should discuss these terms for describing an un-dented indent? http://ask.metafilter.com/7214/The-opposite-of-indent Taken from Wikipedia: "Debates over where to indent, whether to use spaces or tabs, and how many spaces to use are often hotly debated among programmers, leading some to classify indentation as a religious war. Different indentation styles are commonly used. In 2006 a third method of indentation was proposed, called elastic tabstops." See here for the full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentation#Indentation_in_programming And then here for more on the Holy War: http://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html -------- Jay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 15:38:50 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E995F106564A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:38:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: from mail-fx0-f167.google.com (mail-fx0-f167.google.com [209.85.220.167]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780A58FC13 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 15:38:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jayton.garnett@gmail.com) Received: by fxm11 with SMTP id 11so565020fxm.43 for ; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 08:38:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=6MquB639sw/eYkGP7NIuRFK1kU+VWnUZl7A3Y8NKyX0=; b=RPyca4BX0M4HZ+MFCAKvohmIN6mXZnE7bhEX9lpC683NhAmJVZJbXAiqOE7EuF4KTS rXE6CjoJ5kZ0nrY7gLAzC0zqAzqlT8/qh0RSrd+lYN2Gu4yfAG/FueXtCy9CYBHc3VXe Bt4J3JJr1CQXAURHLDScocOnk7MmLjvOpSI2A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=l8B1AiGgd+2IdboW1eNMpXdgwkQgdpeHXlEmtm4hVXdHvP7q+6noe+9tYh7pu/dLQy bzOAPMAQS7V/VPtSqj1NeRjXyE6qdjrtSI3rDYRSS0FYNoxhAaxizT4+eTRWMz8ixNSB ++MM/pfXKzlpKsgmjvbmmVf9boWKgVKcPXr+o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.174.16 with SMTP id b16mr77083mup.28.1238686729379; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 08:38:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net> References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org> <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de> <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:38:49 +0100 Message-ID: From: Jayton Garnett To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, david@catwhisker.org Subject: Re: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 15:38:51 -0000 What's more disturbing? The fact that he actually checks those or that they're obviously fubar'd? ;o) ---- Jay From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 16:03:32 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACF5106564A for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:03:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552098FC14 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:03:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n32G33N5028570; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:03:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n32G31dX028569; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:03:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:03:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Polytropon In-Reply-To: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:03:27 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Polytropon List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:03:33 -0000 Polytropon wrote: > Oliver Fromme wrote: > > [...] > What's bad is when several styles are mixed, e. g. Of course. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. > > I assume that every modern editor can be configured that > > way. > > Even "old fashioned" ones can, take the mcedit (Midnight Commander > Editor) and joe (Joe's own editor) into mind. I think even the > simple vi can. Uhm. I wouldn't call joe "old fashioned". It has a long history, but it's not older than, say, BSD. Would you call BSD old fashioned? > > No, that won't work. In practice you will either have to > > adopt the original indentation style, or reformat the > > code. Just changing the tab size in your editor will > > break many things. > > Maybe I expressed in an unelegant way: When tabs are used, > you can set the tab width to your individual preferences. Yes, you can, and it will break the appearance of many files. See the stdio.h example. > If spaces are used, you cannot do this anymore, you have to > live with the spaces ("corporate guideline"). You can easily convert spaces to spaces. It's trivial to do in sed or with a vi command, or whatever. The effect is the same as changing the tab width on a file that uses tabs (and it can also cause a mess). So it's no worse and no better. I have once written a small shell script that does a somewhat better job: http://www.secnetix.de/olli/scripts/reindent For example, it can be used to change the indentation on stdio.h from 8 to 4 without destroying the alignment of comments and other things: $ reindent 8 4 /usr/include/stdio.h | less It doesn't matter whether the input uses tabs or spaces. The output will always use spaces, but of course you can pipe it through "unexpand -t4" or similar if you prefer. > My two examples above, joe and mcedit: Going forth and back > in indentation would require one keypress per space character, > in opposite to one keypress per tab (which equals one indentation > level). > > But again, they don't count as serious editors, do they? :-) I don't know mcedit, but joe _does_ support transparent handling of indentation with spaces. I use it all the time. I don't have to perform more keypresses if a file uses spaces instead of tab characters. In fact, I think that joe is no less (nor more) serious than vi and emacs. > Well, joe was my first Linux and then FreeBSD editor, and it > got a lot of new features (such as code highlighting). If > you are familiar with TP / WS key codes (^KB ^KK ^KM ^KE > ^KX ^TZ and so forth), it's a real powerful editor. Yes, it is, and the keyboard functions are fully customizable. My own ~/.joerc is 25 KByte, and it doesn't have much in common anymore with the old TP / WS editors. Things have evolved. :) > Finally, I'd like to add that I've not always been such > a "tabbing nazi". In KC-BASIC, my first programming language, > I didn't use indentation (allthough it was completely > possible) Well, I didn't indent in Commodore-BASIC either (used it on PET-2001, VIC-20, C64), but that language wasn't very structured anyway. It didn't even support real functions or procedures, just "GOSUB" subroutines. And of course, limited memory is an issue: When you have only 3.5 KB RAM (VIC-20), saving a few spaces can make a huge difference. Eventually a bought a 40 KB RAM extension for my VIC-20; I had to spend 200 DM at that time (and that was after it had gotten cheap). Today, 1 GB RAM is about 10 Euro. Ugh. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "[...] one observation we can make here is that Python makes an excellent pseudocoding language, with the wonderful attribute that it can actually be executed." -- Bruce Eckel From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 16:07:23 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29909106566C for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:07:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (lurza.secnetix.de [IPv6:2a01:170:102f::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A101B8FC1C for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:07:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olli@lurza.secnetix.de) Received: from lurza.secnetix.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n32G6e9X028716; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:07:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oliver.fromme@secnetix.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by lurza.secnetix.de (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n32G6dNr028714; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:06:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:06:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200904021606.n32G6dNr028714@lurza.secnetix.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, david@catwhisker.org, fullermd@over-yonder.net In-Reply-To: <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net> X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat User-Agent: tin/1.8.3-20070201 ("Scotasay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/6.4-PRERELEASE-20080904 (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.1.2 (lurza.secnetix.de [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:07:04 +0200 (CEST) Cc: Subject: Re: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting? X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:07:23 -0000 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:40:57PM +0200 I heard the voice of > Oliver Fromme, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one for lynette > > (2903 hours would be about 120 days). > > That's actually very easy to pull off. Just open 4 terminals on the > 1st and walk away. Right, I didn't think of that. Probably because my own wife wouldn't open more than one terminal. :-) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Geschäftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün- chen, HRB 125758, Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution." -- Robert Sewell From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 17:17:56 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1AE1065686 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:17:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx01.qsc.de (mx01.qsc.de [213.148.129.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2CF8FC21 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:17:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-196-37-253.dynamic.qsc.de [92.196.37.253]) by mx01.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32153D076; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:17:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id n32HHcH5001487; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:17:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:17:38 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Polytropon Message-Id: <20090402191738.a6ef3872.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de> <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:17:57 -0000 On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:03:01 +0200 (CEST), Oliver Fromme wrote: > Uhm. I wouldn't call joe "old fashioned". It has a long > history, but it's not older than, say, BSD. Would you call > BSD old fashioned? IF I do, you may throw an AS/400 at my head. :-) Allthough BSD has a history dating many decades back into past, I would call it one of the most modern operating systems. And for joe, this editor is very rich on features, lightweight in regards of libraries and dependencies, easy to use and well documented - and still powerful. I'd call this modern. > I have once written a small shell script that does a > somewhat better job: > > http://www.secnetix.de/olli/scripts/reindent > > For example, it can be used to change the indentation > on stdio.h from 8 to 4 without destroying the alignment > of comments and other things: > > $ reindent 8 4 /usr/include/stdio.h | less Wow, it doesn't destroy the comment "column"! That's a great tool, just "installed" it in ~/bin/. :-) > I don't know mcedit, [...] It handles a space as a space, no matter if it's intended to be an indentation character or not. Moving the cursor +1 requires 1 keypress, and for 4 spaces (as 1 level indent) 4 keypresses. Okay, maybe that's what one could consider old-fashioned. > [...] but joe _does_ support transparent > handling of indentation with spaces. I use it all the > time. I don't have to perform more keypresses if a > file uses spaces instead of tab characters. I should use joe more again, at least because I noticed that it has decent code highlighting. > In fact, I think that joe is no less (nor more) serious > than vi and emacs. I share this opinion. > > Well, joe was my first Linux and then FreeBSD editor, and it > > got a lot of new features (such as code highlighting). If > > you are familiar with TP / WS key codes (^KB ^KK ^KM ^KE > > ^KX ^TZ and so forth), it's a real powerful editor. > > Yes, it is, and the keyboard functions are fully > customizable. My own ~/.joerc is 25 KByte, and it > doesn't have much in common anymore with the old > TP / WS editors. Things have evolved. :) Well, ^KX has developed into a saying equivalent to "thank you and goodbye" among my friends. :-) What I really like about joe is the ability to adjust the edit buffer in BOTH directions (^KB, ^KK) and EDIT it while the highlighting is active. Another strength is that you can use joe over a line that has problems with control characters, and still use all its functionality (okay, vi can do so, too). I don't know much about Emacs (in fact, nothing except that it exists), its magic didn't open up to me yet. > > Finally, I'd like to add that I've not always been such > > a "tabbing nazi". In KC-BASIC, my first programming language, > > I didn't use indentation (allthough it was completely > > possible) > > Well, I didn't indent in Commodore-BASIC either (used > it on PET-2001, VIC-20, C64), but that language wasn't > very structured anyway. It didn't even support real > functions or procedures, just "GOSUB" subroutines. > And of course, limited memory is an issue: When you > have only 3.5 KB RAM (VIC-20), saving a few spaces > can make a huge difference. Efficient programming (read: memory-efficient coding) is a term dated back into these days; not common anymore among programmers. :-) > Eventually a bought a 40 KB RAM extension for my VIC-20; > I had to spend 200 DM at that time (and that was after > it had gotten cheap). Today, 1 GB RAM is about 10 Euro. > Ugh. As you said earlier: Things have evolved. :-) PS. Please keep me in CC because I'm not on -chat. -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 18:25:54 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2A21065673 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:25:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6698FC14 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:25:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from illoai@gmail.com) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so562855qwb.7 for ; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jouOQcM7gvLpo4xS4W4VrR2kprFzrxakZkyILoyPv6g=; b=dVac3iJ6Q1hqt/bVrwfHzowOeJ4BBZfoqdYCDh0kAx6kd54VI9GHF9WKgNFWzaaSQm DpCvPiaQ4xIWc+NO0wqLwam7wrALribaZOh3QpbX32A8FnZ3i5oR6AaSMfXaA+Ce6Ryu Vu2Hk1ZDWnEvFmHd0QI9Za2Tf/wL30ZXLlIDA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eAJ599eBLadh7bZZ6e8L6wcT8MoO8DBDfFcmo6X1lE25IlnIcF8+avzu4GzGi+QogV BdJhkFLdUPMsLk+TGs2e548t1r4ORutDqbPw+FokyKB5weMfo4K0AMpLpuJmrZrkwFtB OXD7WtvvuI23IHJfLB+evinaTm+hRYgGQnGm8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.81.136 with SMTP id x8mr241213qck.95.1238694955163; Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:55:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de> <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:55:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: "illoai@gmail.com" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Polytropon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:25:55 -0000 2009/4/2 Oliver Fromme : > =A0Would you call > BSD old fashioned? > No. I would call it "old-fashion". In keeping with the in/ex/un/out-dent theme, of course. --=20 -- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Apr 2 20:46:55 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAAB106566C for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) Received: from iron1.sfsu.edu (iron1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.35]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D27B8FC17 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:46:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kayve@sfsu.edu) X-Inbound-SFSU: False X-onepass: IPPSC X-From-SFSU: True X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEAF/B1EmC1Apk/2dsb2JhbAC/TAEJBYciiE2CSoEyBoUw Received: from smtp01.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.100]) by iron1.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 02 Apr 2009 13:46:54 -0700 Received: from libra.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.238]) by mail05a.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3FP1HF555) with ESMTP id 2009040213465359-954 ; Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:46:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:46:43 -0700 (PDT) From: KAYVEN RIESE To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <8663hnalxk.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de> <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no> <8663hnalxk.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL05a/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3FP1HF555 | January 28, 2009) at 04/02/2009 13:46:53, Serialize by Router on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 04/02/2009 13:46:54, Serialize complete at 04/02/2009 13:46:54 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-851401618-1238705203=:6809" Cc: William Gordon Rutherdale , Polytropon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:46:55 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---559023410-851401618-1238705203=:6809 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > KAYVEN RIESE writes: >> Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: >>> Have you considered combining the two (computer science and >>> molecular biology) and going into bioinformatics? >> disaster. data mining people don't give a @*&# about the facts. > > I'm not sure to whom you refer as "data mining people". If you think > bioinformatics is about data mining, you are sorely mistaken. I am well aware of the difference. There are people publishing in the journal Bioinformatics that have medical knowledge, and there are others with math and statistics only who publish in the same journal thinking there is no need for any medical knowledge. That is a second hand quote. > > DES > --=20 > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* ---559023410-851401618-1238705203=:6809-- From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Apr 3 19:50:41 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA545106566B for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:50:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: from mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815888FC1E for ; Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:50:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from chuckr@telenix.org) Received: (qmail 32385 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2009 19:50:41 -0000 Received: from april.chuckr.org (HELO april.telenix.org) (chuckr@[66.92.151.30]) (envelope-sender ) by mail7.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 3 Apr 2009 19:50:40 -0000 Message-ID: <49D668B4.1090208@telenix.org> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:51:16 -0400 From: Chuck Robey User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (X11/20090121) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lowell Gilbert References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org> <20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca> <20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de> <49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org> <44vdpo81sn.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> In-Reply-To: <44vdpo81sn.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=F3DCA0E9; url=http://pgp.mit.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why?? (prog question) X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:50:42 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lowell Gilbert wrote: > Chuck Robey writes: > >> Lowell Gilbert wrote: >>> Chuck Robey writes: >>> >>>> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project. >>> Or at *least* per file. >> Umm, no, per project. Folks are too pushed into errors when a project has 29 >> different styles. > > If you write all your code from scratch, you can do that. > I don't have experience with non-trivial projects that *don't* > include substantial amounts of third-party code. Reformatting > third-party code to fit your style is a mistake if you want to > ever take another drop of that code. > > When there's more than one style in a particular file, however, > somebody needs to be slapped with a dead fish. I recall, long while back, using CTree database code, but I never added to their source code files, never modified their files at all, so maybe I should have said "locally written" code, because you obviously can't control what your boss buys after 3 drinks. Or 5. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknWaLQACgkQz62J6PPcoOk56QCgkyce1IUhg3UfNSWvGDsJgHLj kSQAn34mnpmWu+w7NIOfMhcu58P6Qu8Y =Sje6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----