From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:17:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B531106566C for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohauer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.139.233.65]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237998FC12 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:17:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (cde1100.uni.vrs [192.168.0.100]) (Authenticated sender: ohauer) by p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C3D48208CD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 02:17:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 02:17:36 +0200 From: Olli Hauer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> In-Reply-To: <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , Bryan Drewery Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:17:35 -0000 On 2012-09-09 01:50, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 9/8/2012 6:46 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: >> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as >> of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are >> [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. > > Yes please, deprecate and remove both. > CVS and RCS is really handy if you have to work on isolated machines and cannot install a modern VCS, there it is always a better fall-back then copy1/2/3 ... If it has to go I have to use the fall-back method in future :( -- Regards, olli From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:21:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D462106564A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:21:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Received: from monday.kientzle.com (99-115-135-74.uvs.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [99.115.135.74]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACDB8FC12; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:21:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from root@localhost) by monday.kientzle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) id q890LaL2058455; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:21:36 GMT (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Received: from [192.168.2.143] (CiscoE3000 [192.168.1.65]) by kientzle.com with SMTP id uvjphjgfiuyb9tmg7h8fz6uhya; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:21:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tim@kientzle.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Tim Kientzle In-Reply-To: <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 17:21:35 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> To: Olli Hauer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:21:43 -0000 On Sep 8, 2012, at 5:17 PM, Olli Hauer wrote: > On 2012-09-09 01:50, Bryan Drewery wrote: >> On 9/8/2012 6:46 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: >>> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as >>> of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are >>> [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. >> >> Yes please, deprecate and remove both. >> > > CVS and RCS is really handy if you have to work on isolated > machines and cannot install a modern VCS, there it is always > a better fall-back then copy1/2/3 ... > > If it has to go I have to use the fall-back method in future :( Are you saying that you are in an environment where you cannot install the devel/cvs package or port? Tim From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:22:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55031065676 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:22:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bryan@shatow.net) Received: from secure.xzibition.com (secure.xzibition.com [173.160.118.92]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852048FC1A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:22:18 +0000 (UTC) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=shatow.net; h=message-id :date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=sweb; b=fzTAlo UTrAcvg5efs2AMWc5cRgHeiPeEHWn7Y77j7pSQqP1RiCXEmWFHoMYj1Njv2kNhLn ksOnv72BMSV9FvSN43TVWkoPmMae0Ckrt48RqeTJZW3wObWrPCkcvkLluB8oycxk bsTzFfNo234tVIrTZhwuBNj5TLM7DO0JpuRm8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=shatow.net; h=message-id :date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=sweb; bh=Lkuic0ey/q34 N1tRHc0LLAGriu0cAuLnENpX503z3xs=; b=vNcY8GCLHD5K7QsceebzJXihwWeK UVN2hus8vp1dlgcnZSVqe+6tilhj22F2tW459rFfzP8HmN6rS45bwlIxp3jSm9oI VF8PZtB9Tn8NxQYKu2FQCgI1P5wagSMNXkauVLV3FMZvr7qdBuK429QTXjTQohFi JyuT7SdEAcofTxI= Received: (qmail 24283 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2012 19:22:16 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.10.0.115?) (bryan@shatow.net@10.10.0.115) by sweb.xzibition.com with ESMTPA; 8 Sep 2012 19:22:16 -0500 Message-ID: <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:22:02 -0500 From: Bryan Drewery User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olli Hauer References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=3C9B0CF9; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:22:19 -0000 On 9/8/2012 7:17 PM, Olli Hauer wrote: > On 2012-09-09 01:50, Bryan Drewery wrote: >> On 9/8/2012 6:46 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: >>> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as >>> of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are >>> [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. >> >> Yes please, deprecate and remove both. >> > > CVS and RCS is really handy if you have to work on isolated > machines and cannot install a modern VCS, there it is always > a better fall-back then copy1/2/3 ... > > If it has to go I have to use the fall-back method in future :( > I agree fully they can be handy, and other handy tools could be present. But this is as straight forward as: # portsnap fetch extract # make -C /usr/ports/devel/my_vcs_tool install clean Or now even (considering CURRENT): # pkg install devel/my_vcs_tool Given how easy it is to easy install (the latest) version of some handy tool like this, it's odd we have some, but not other, tools in base. -- Regards, Bryan Drewery bdrewery@freenode/EFNet From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:28:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A7E106566B for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:28:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bryan@shatow.net) Received: from secure.xzibition.com (secure.xzibition.com [173.160.118.92]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE83D8FC0C for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:28:40 +0000 (UTC) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=shatow.net; h=message-id :date:from:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=sweb; b=023PNu AoUfSJVX/VyN56eqb9xnYQ22aZGTszBFsOzLLyG9xjIS8nE6wXGjIgsPXZOkRGzr YF6999TuMWmLgAIXhywWq4a8E9SVtS4ZZhQAr+AgTk+8axC8wXXzoP5QBdvmHQCt MbwVutiMY56ChA4E39wp5tjhkUnFMoZt0OUdU= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=shatow.net; h=message-id :date:from:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=sweb; bh=icaiDVKgTbL1 aL61Az5xlqwIOLnBmrlMBFRp/a8lD14=; b=vtSql9fVyrAVCNfOIbxedQi8clx6 /iTPMgLth4kpBWw2T7xY6W0bIsgaTkY8HC08lcFk5PHQRtIhG1SpMNccIZL4iXAF yP3ZyCfZPwNekcSWg6Xrc8FxkuHl2V9jfERiK0n78TxHx5RRAveYRCOCaFhY4l0B lY0EIe/Z5Cr8Hj0= Received: (qmail 51380 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2012 19:28:38 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.10.0.115?) (bryan@shatow.net@10.10.0.115) by sweb.xzibition.com with ESMTPA; 8 Sep 2012 19:28:38 -0500 Message-ID: <504BE2A8.7000807@shatow.net> Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:28:24 -0500 From: Bryan Drewery User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=3C9B0CF9; url=http://www.shatow.net/bryan/bryan.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:28:41 -0000 On 9/8/2012 5:09 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > CVS from HEAD [0]. Please keep this point in mind. pkg(8) (or pkg-bootstrap(8)) would be available anywhere cvs(1) were not. -- Regards, Bryan Drewery bdrewery@freenode/EFNet From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:29:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80368106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:29:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB6B8FC12 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:29:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so615363dad.13 for ; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 17:29:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=lwSJPn7OCEpqgD1VuJG3eMZ5tdJ1Lg9WZUgw2Uut7Yk=; b=DreKG6wavApnMaVj7yBTT/Mn0JHBN3L38WJY1Qo2jiWxHqBTD5h0Uz6TC1qELdRvmV /VocTmmHFutrmrFjiDRP7aKf4QSHjFy5YNFd2R+oYW+2SBQ0d8eyyfBCeENmcWQqyzju I+RF/8CPiK7wrVNFdq+OI33vIMdsIFQRK6EC8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=lwSJPn7OCEpqgD1VuJG3eMZ5tdJ1Lg9WZUgw2Uut7Yk=; b=hrGEZju2fXgNftjpAPsyaeBro5kRlDTUpzcovJhrlN6FYaFAxqeqSjVIFafGE0A8Jq r9+rmEDDOFO3zKHIY94pBML+JUcsniMAsGjQEAnFX9UakJkJCYibBhhmBdD0au48KQbO UmlwVB3/BG3dsnLOHs3C2ZbJMwuatHuRuvSHTWoacd03ufRMqwbyeZbHokzD3+LfqblY uptcGpLTJDoWZ1EQEt/1Y/lIcsDIyAdzOzNVABeGKUWlSmO1KCPcspIzlzRTi26zFi15 q5EwYPtla+cOe0KGxaIKPN+6SwDB8tMPdBQCX9/T50GaRUfZMYvDdqr+wvjmt0AjV/2+ 1iIA== Received: by 10.66.89.6 with SMTP id bk6mr15841484pab.81.1347150578765; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 17:29:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Sep 2012 17:29:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 20:29:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Peter Jeremy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlvZ2xQZjWNe5oi2m2RvVvRVUD0j/fdKFNFyDkzI97Jrnv/FtzRBoHwMWsMOh8qWkWmUEOx Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:29:39 -0000 On 8 September 2012 19:46, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2012-Sep-08 18:09:55 -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: >>As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove >>CVS from HEAD [0]. > > peter@ hinted at this in > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069251.html > and this lead to a subthread where jhb@ and Julian H. Stacey disagreed > whilst I agreed and further suggested that RCS also be removed. > > As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as > of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are > [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. RCS is on my list of things to look at, but can I ask that this conversation be limited only to CVS? Its easier to work one tool at a time. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:37:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDB3106566B; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:37:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohauer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.139.233.65]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DF88FC0A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:37:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (cde1100.uni.vrs [192.168.0.100]) (Authenticated sender: ohauer) by p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3AD8C208CD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 02:37:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 02:37:32 +0200 From: Olli Hauer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Tim Kientzle , Olli Hauer Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:37:30 -0000 On 2012-09-09 02:21, Tim Kientzle wrote: > On Sep 8, 2012, at 5:17 PM, Olli Hauer wrote: >> On 2012-09-09 01:50, Bryan Drewery wrote: >>> On 9/8/2012 6:46 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: >>>> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as >>>> of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are >>>> [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. >>> >>> Yes please, deprecate and remove both. >>> >> >> CVS and RCS is really handy if you have to work on isolated >> machines and cannot install a modern VCS, there it is always >> a better fall-back then copy1/2/3 ... >> >> If it has to go I have to use the fall-back method in future :( > > Are you saying that you are in an environment where > you cannot install the devel/cvs package or port? > Yep, I support some machines which are running a stock FreeBSD without any port installed ... If I have to work on this machines RCS is a really handy tool. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 00:40:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BED0106564A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:40:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from onyx.glenbarber.us (onyx.glenbarber.us [IPv6:2607:fc50:1000:c200::face]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F428FC0A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:40:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from glenbarber.us (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:8:1205:2:2:0:100]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: gjb) by onyx.glenbarber.us (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9BAFB23F6D9; Sat, 8 Sep 2012 20:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 20:40:22 -0400 From: Glen Barber To: Olli Hauer Message-ID: <20120909004022.GA1316@glenbarber.us> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT amd64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Tim Kientzle Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:40:29 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 02:37:32AM +0200, Olli Hauer wrote: > > Are you saying that you are in an environment where > > you cannot install the devel/cvs package or port? > >=20 >=20 > Yep, I support some machines which are running a stock > FreeBSD without any port installed ... > If I have to work on this machines RCS is a really handy tool. Static svn? Glen --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJQS+V1AAoJEFJPDDeguUaj1JUH/jCMr9snFP/zpV+HBgZ2nNRJ zkWDHAGYRcT1+oi5Had+m4XZd/Q5bbQgJCag2hBuMVzTAwj43ovMZne7KVGPYvFY ZSBFSPIAfS5tsGuw1G8Ltsygp+XQEfA+qYf/lT/R77EKUkQZFhdxe0QJmn0vU1fR 4SdgJW0gz/nUA+M4shz85E3s1awOiJJ8UeQ9rXPxfTAcAgzD5S2krE7IoRBmw3TT TYbTfDwPE1fL/sOOqbfBJ6V9boD2CocRhzjmWlgtazvzgceIMXEAhX5gdE8iSUq+ sLTHfarQ0jzj7Hic/1NtmFGOhhOLWi9X+/fumdB01lpTmdOLOPc1zTQ1VbkAzUU= =lASk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 02:59:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45F3106566C for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 02:59:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625198FC08 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 02:59:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so959243iay.13 for ; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:59:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=ucwQouL+YimbxjFiAgtPgpplZt6TRonR+j8t9Wpz2lo=; b=Wd+TADmZs4WO7sK8yT/JmgzCYpePMx9mjrBlvasAg/E8DmDYlR5ljEmCfZ/2S6VUJM jqdDxHV/w+0PpWI2eweR7xHgVOn3v2l1ZGwTHmQ/GsW1j8UlQyu1nA1JgH26sfntkrpm qSHGo6ielhSlkLXBL9RK79UJWOC3HzHG8WiMfmUhDqj5QNcRHJ6A+tan2EgpOJxOztON qzV8SZE69k+PlKpy+Z1FpYFip7KbyGvepVxvSVT5Sb3xSMtUyjx5tye7x/1hgqajeA9/ iYIHuNzEAk7beu/yDByUL9DD/t3jx2d5EcJr2+c1S7Ek1vpbsQSP25rMr3hmp0IY65fr qDng== Received: by 10.50.168.106 with SMTP id zv10mr4041168igb.13.1347159558985; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id in10sm9374478igc.14.2012.09.08.19.59.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 21:59:16 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> To: Eitan Adler X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl9ZjXI+2nEH8fVxxziVkkRwfZaZDq5n56ayoyhz78xHjg6c+Ia6tFshIkEGsi7dgOcSwN8 Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 02:59:19 -0000 On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:29 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > On 8 September 2012 19:46, Peter Jeremy wrote: >> On 2012-Sep-08 18:09:55 -0400, Eitan Adler = wrote: >>> As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove >>> CVS from HEAD [0]. >>=20 >> peter@ hinted at this in >> = http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069251.html >> and this lead to a subthread where jhb@ and Julian H. Stacey = disagreed >> whilst I agreed and further suggested that RCS also be removed. >>=20 >> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as >> of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They = are >> [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. >=20 > RCS is on my list of things to look at, but can I ask that this > conversation be limited only to CVS? Its easier to work one tool at a > time. I think it is a mistake to actively remove these at this time, for = reasons that jhb@, et al, have discussed at length: These are useful = tools, traditionally installed. The space savings in negligible and = there's already a knob for turning them off. The project's source distribution system changes aren't a valid reason = to change things at this time. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 03:01:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF721106566C for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 03:01:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC478FC17 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 03:01:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iebc12 with SMTP id c12so1489281ieb.13 for ; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 20:01:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=HDYIENt9GetHibJ40V3zTwXnlF9zHM//iwc2dlwg2Sk=; b=ZJ3bAYxQSPhnp3CbHgH0xYMUwiDlrAniHFvd6T1Wsbgfn6OvToQ++Gw26rjfuFmrdF KwoCZWfVvNuiJtYCqdgQewQ/gacbJURMC7fyl6tS4khvgxUu7HUeHYELoycUBtJd2JuI VW/KvXP9IVnjJXMekc0zJAcpX84RAHXlBE//5FZO0ZghwQ51dfNtgOFMlJ9TcKBcxkDS QJKB91lItpx9HwY5sJbdx38DXk4sNU7YJXXkGc1ycNE4PqhsfahHL4eJh3zBsLKBzDOC Ebeo0y5oOItbgCFeHqL+MYYdkYD4UgvcXDFYVlqBrSJyz+GHT0qnDJj2/hKy64q7vz9x HcYg== Received: by 10.50.187.170 with SMTP id ft10mr4015881igc.36.1347159713560; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 20:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ng5sm5064437igc.0.2012.09.08.20.01.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 08 Sep 2012 20:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:01:43 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> To: Bryan Drewery X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnvJcAntyJjfYe6p48hfXt/3q9qlO4RJsizZ/6vbbo6hkw+nrr8vRKH4GZ0wiB/ygQ3ZAh4 Cc: Olli Hauer , Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 03:01:59 -0000 On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Bryan Drewery wrote: > On 9/8/2012 7:17 PM, Olli Hauer wrote: >> On 2012-09-09 01:50, Bryan Drewery wrote: >>> On 9/8/2012 6:46 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: >>>> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that = (as >>>> of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They = are >>>> [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. >>>=20 >>> Yes please, deprecate and remove both. >>>=20 >>=20 >> CVS and RCS is really handy if you have to work on isolated >> machines and cannot install a modern VCS, there it is always >> a better fall-back then copy1/2/3 ... >>=20 >> If it has to go I have to use the fall-back method in future :( >>=20 >=20 > I agree fully they can be handy, and other handy tools could be = present. > But this is as straight forward as: >=20 > # portsnap fetch extract > # make -C /usr/ports/devel/my_vcs_tool install clean >=20 > Or now even (considering CURRENT): >=20 > # pkg install devel/my_vcs_tool >=20 > Given how easy it is to easy install (the latest) version of some = handy > tool like this, it's odd we have some, but not other, tools in base. Since we have traditionally included cvs, it does make sense. People = that use FreeBSD have used it as the basis for systems that they have = deployed, including cvs. There's no compelling reason to removing right = now, and doing so will break some of these people. Let's let this round of changes to the FreeBSD source system shake out = before we become eager to kick cvs out. Perhaps revisit for 11? Warner= From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 04:00:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B12106566B; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 04:00:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CAD8FC08; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 04:00:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q893itcV031136; Sat, 8 Sep 2012 21:44:56 -0600 Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:44:54 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Warner Losh Message-ID: <20120909104454.178bd99c@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Olli Hauer , Eitan, Adler , Bryan Drewery Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 04:00:08 -0000 Hi, On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:01:43 -0500 Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Bryan Drewery wrote: > > > On 9/8/2012 7:17 PM, Olli Hauer wrote: > >> On 2012-09-09 01:50, Bryan Drewery wrote: > >>> On 9/8/2012 6:46 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > >>>> As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools > >>>> that (as of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base > >>>> system. ... They are [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. > >>> > >>> Yes please, deprecate and remove both. > >>> > >> > >> CVS and RCS is really handy if you have to work on isolated > >> machines and cannot install a modern VCS, there it is always > >> a better fall-back then copy1/2/3 ... > >> > >> If it has to go I have to use the fall-back method in future :( > >> > > > > I agree fully they can be handy, and other handy tools could be > > present. But this is as straight forward as: > > > > # portsnap fetch extract > > # make -C /usr/ports/devel/my_vcs_tool install clean > > > > Or now even (considering CURRENT): > > > > # pkg install devel/my_vcs_tool > > > > Given how easy it is to easy install (the latest) version of some > > handy tool like this, it's odd we have some, but not other, tools > > in base. > > Since we have traditionally included cvs, it does make sense. People > that use FreeBSD have used it as the basis for systems that they have > deployed, including cvs. There's no compelling reason to removing > right now, and doing so will break some of these people. I highly agree with this. > > Let's let this round of changes to the FreeBSD source system shake > out before we become eager to kick cvs out. Perhaps revisit for 11? And keep in mind that the new system can be used on a plain FreeBSD machine without anything else installed. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 04:51:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9215A1065672 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 04:51:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C528FC15 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 04:51:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so687278dad.13 for ; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 21:51:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Gi8sA5OO/w7Eu7iUCqM7SkpQeB9T8/OBROvnxUhIEGc=; b=L2mLbkuYKzyc1YClIfJ7q4bmrno31xQd+rT77MYhirm9x0OjbqNFWBsBbaYbu4QpjK yF0XtWx5iNi5QVS24ygtDXtErHUDp8+RLB2LdNev0LQ8YtvFwFQregUMiv4fXXVCKLrB jVxHkJWUrTkwkObIQ+MzSmcH6Ea5ifk9I/iU8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Gi8sA5OO/w7Eu7iUCqM7SkpQeB9T8/OBROvnxUhIEGc=; b=JwlMwvIC0rM9dleOhFKdwk4M1ZcLawSEIYqTRGErt00pEEV1VDHqAJWTaDHlimIEkD vcjBo4YS1YubMYBjQheTLDmFfK0HYg8jV3CO3lCqgiy7/Cj4YelRyvZTMSDHQCGWB1N1 Z3jX0aS84sVUVFFETuxwIKAw4YuUbNNtmjnXTbylhUmV4NHqQaXrVLE4FG+o1aH3Gcq+ Vz16LY0Vzy/ebNPWWXoq6Amf93iWFTS+naTQHQrFBr5o+Ds9y45iC/gTnaa/69/E0Dnn vGWxcVIsaWwhzByL9R8JQMfvrRu0HSiiwZNcz/DhvNxWaWI3mKYeWyQ+f2zChk1iExyT sLSw== Received: by 10.66.72.130 with SMTP id d2mr16025597pav.59.1347166272744; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 21:51:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Sep 2012 21:50:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120909104454.178bd99c@X220.ovitrap.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <20120909104454.178bd99c@X220.ovitrap.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 00:50:41 -0400 Message-ID: To: Erich Dollansky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmxWxulylFc4dQNob7xRZlxEKzrTXHRCN1jatrcnzt884YZjM8EQsmRly72DkNdSxhygP9h Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Olli Hauer , Bryan Drewery Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 04:51:13 -0000 On 8 September 2012 23:44, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> Since we have traditionally included cvs, it does make sense. People >> that use FreeBSD have used it as the basis for systems that they have >> deployed, including cvs. There's no compelling reason to removing >> right now, and doing so will break some of these people. cvs is obsolete. The people that need it can install the package or port. >> Let's let this round of changes to the FreeBSD source system shake >> out before we become eager to kick cvs out. Perhaps revisit for 11? The reason to remove cvs is because cvs is no longer *the* vcs system and is largely being replaced. The reason to bring it up now is that FreeBSD's use of cvs was the only real remaining blocker. > And keep in mind that the new system can be used on a plain FreeBSD > machine without anything else installed. why does this matter? We have ports and packages. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 06:31:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39183106566B; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 06:31:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6038FC14; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 06:31:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.48.2]) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8219D3B761; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 06:31:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q896VbR9008408; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 06:31:37 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: Olli Hauer From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 09 Sep 2012 02:37:32 +0200." <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 06:31:37 +0000 Message-ID: <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Tim Kientzle Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 06:31:50 -0000 In message <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org>, Olli Hauer writes: >Yep, I support some machines which are running a stock >FreeBSD without any port installed ... >If I have to work on this machines RCS is a really handy tool. And because you have some machines without any ports (why btw ?) you think it is reasonable that every other FreeBSD machine should drag around RCS ? I would say that if you win this argument, the doc-team will be morally oblighed to remove any use of the word "modular" from our documentation. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 06:38:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD08106566C for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 06:38:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from joel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail.vnode.se (mail.vnode.se [62.119.52.80]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CFD8FC0A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 06:38:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.vnode.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53ECE3F07A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:38:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at vnode.se Received: from mail.vnode.se ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.vnode.se (mail.vnode.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUJv7IHQqKTq; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:38:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jd.benders.se (jd.benders.se [212.247.52.12]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.vnode.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C85C5E3F079; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:38:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:38:30 +0200 From: Joel Dahl To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120909063830.GD32780@jd.benders.se> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 06:38:43 -0000 On 08-09-2012 18:09, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > CVS is obsolete. Virtually everyone that uses a version control system > chooses git, mercurial, subversion, etc. FreeBSD has finally migrated > from CVS for all of the repositories [2]. The ports management team > has announced the end of CVS support in six months time (the end of > February 2013). The documentation project does not export subversion > to CVS. The source repository will eventually cease support of CVS as > well. > > As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > CVS from HEAD [0]. Yes, please remove it. If we want to work towards a GPL-free 10.0, now is the time to do it. It's available in ports if someone really needs it. -- Joel From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 10:45:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22A31065670 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:45:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731AD8FC08 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:45:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2386E54; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:45:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id ED81B8161; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:45:24 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Eitan Adler References: Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:45:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Eitan Adler's message of "Sat, 8 Sep 2012 18:09:55 -0400") Message-ID: <868vcjv5j1.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:45:32 -0000 Eitan Adler writes: > As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > CVS from HEAD [0]. Yes, please. One more piece of GPL baggage we can do without. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 10:53:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF86D106566C; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@psconsult.nl) Received: from mx1.psconsult.nl (unknown [IPv6:2001:7b8:30f:e0::5059:ee8a]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2E18FC0A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.psconsult.nl (mx1.hvnu.psconsult.nl [46.44.189.154]) by mx1.psconsult.nl (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q89Ar0n2035830 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@psconsult.nl) Received: (from paul@localhost) by mx1.psconsult.nl (8.14.5/8.14.4/Submit) id q89Ar0nZ035829; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@psconsult.nl) X-Authentication-Warning: mx1.psconsult.nl: paul set sender to freebsd@psconsult.nl using -f Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:00 +0200 From: Paul Schenkeveld To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:53:07 -0000 On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 09:46:59AM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2012-Sep-08 18:09:55 -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: > >As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > >CVS from HEAD [0]. > > peter@ hinted at this in > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069251.html > and this lead to a subthread where jhb@ and Julian H. Stacey disagreed > whilst I agreed and further suggested that RCS also be removed. > > As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as > of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are > [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. Losing CVS and RCS from the base system will cause me a lot of work on systems I've running here and there with scripts written over the last 20 or so years using either one but that by itself should not be a reason to keep them in the base system indefinitely. That being said I'd like to mention that although CVS is in ports, I cannot find RCS there. Reworking all scripts that are still using RCS would be a major undertaking. There are also a dozen or so ports in our tree that use/build on RCS. So my plea here is to not remove RCS unless it re-appears in ports. With kind regards, Paul Schenkeveld From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 10:53:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF86D106566C; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@psconsult.nl) Received: from mx1.psconsult.nl (unknown [IPv6:2001:7b8:30f:e0::5059:ee8a]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2E18FC0A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mx1.psconsult.nl (mx1.hvnu.psconsult.nl [46.44.189.154]) by mx1.psconsult.nl (8.14.5/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q89Ar0n2035830 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@psconsult.nl) Received: (from paul@localhost) by mx1.psconsult.nl (8.14.5/8.14.4/Submit) id q89Ar0nZ035829; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from freebsd@psconsult.nl) X-Authentication-Warning: mx1.psconsult.nl: paul set sender to freebsd@psconsult.nl using -f Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:00 +0200 From: Paul Schenkeveld To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:53:07 -0000 On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 09:46:59AM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2012-Sep-08 18:09:55 -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: > >As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > >CVS from HEAD [0]. > > peter@ hinted at this in > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069251.html > and this lead to a subthread where jhb@ and Julian H. Stacey disagreed > whilst I agreed and further suggested that RCS also be removed. > > As I said before: CVS (and RCS) are both GPL-licensed tools that (as > of 10.x) no longer serve any purpose in the base system. ... They are > [therefore] not needed in the FreeBSD base. Losing CVS and RCS from the base system will cause me a lot of work on systems I've running here and there with scripts written over the last 20 or so years using either one but that by itself should not be a reason to keep them in the base system indefinitely. That being said I'd like to mention that although CVS is in ports, I cannot find RCS there. Reworking all scripts that are still using RCS would be a major undertaking. There are also a dozen or so ports in our tree that use/build on RCS. So my plea here is to not remove RCS unless it re-appears in ports. With kind regards, Paul Schenkeveld From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 11:17:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CFE106566C; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:17:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2997A8FC0C; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:17:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DC66E6D; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:17:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 15F3188AD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:17:14 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Paul Schenkeveld References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:17:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> (Paul Schenkeveld's message of "Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:00 +0200") Message-ID: <864nn7v41y.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 11:17:15 -0000 Paul Schenkeveld writes: > That being said I'd like to mention that although CVS is in ports, I > cannot find RCS there. Reworking all scripts that are still using RCS > would be a major undertaking. There are also a dozen or so ports in our > tree that use/build on RCS. We're only talking about CVS at this point. I'd prefer to keep RCS. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 11:17:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CFE106566C; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:17:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2997A8FC0C; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:17:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DC66E6D; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:17:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 15F3188AD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:17:14 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Paul Schenkeveld References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:17:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> (Paul Schenkeveld's message of "Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:53:00 +0200") Message-ID: <864nn7v41y.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 11:17:15 -0000 Paul Schenkeveld writes: > That being said I'd like to mention that although CVS is in ports, I > cannot find RCS there. Reworking all scripts that are still using RCS > would be a major undertaking. There are also a dozen or so ports in our > tree that use/build on RCS. We're only talking about CVS at this point. I'd prefer to keep RCS. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 11:38:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB3D106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:38:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohauer@FreeBSD.org) Received: from p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.139.233.65]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64F88FC16 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:38:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (cde1100.uni.vrs [192.168.0.100]) (Authenticated sender: ohauer) by p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 56134208CD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:38:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <504C7FD3.5020702@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:38:59 +0200 From: Olli Hauer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@FreeBSD.org References: <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 11:38:58 -0000 On 2012-09-09 08:31, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org>, Olli Hauer writes: > >> Yep, I support some machines which are running a stock >> FreeBSD without any port installed ... >> If I have to work on this machines RCS is a really handy tool. > > And because you have some machines without any ports (why btw ?) > you think it is reasonable that every other FreeBSD machine should > drag around RCS ? Because the stock FreeBSD has everything what is needed on the box, (same on the Open... boxes) it's the customers decision not mine. I haven't say RCS it should stay, I have only mentioned on this boxes it is a handy tool and I have to use the fall-back mode. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 12:19:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B50106566B for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:19:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636298FC0A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:19:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so784573dad.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=kWlk0IFViSKAiPO3Kt1VNie1st0wRO+SXvGL2e80CxU=; b=nCXeZYSc1NpHVGFNmz/2pr/S77toltX2L6ZaiOoj0S7Yz2/6ZORj8bJLPbQBje3bOZ kxx0Hc/PWf27DGfa43/SNhxLlYhKo9ubYUexE0m1h6B/aGlvSJLMCRzyHYij+Q71510V pser52JTOjqLW30gAnIgxgtX7ojThf3ftoFSs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=kWlk0IFViSKAiPO3Kt1VNie1st0wRO+SXvGL2e80CxU=; b=T+SD20k62LQX6mbxLbt6LUKlN3OFC/D+Zie+AecVnPHFHnQs5E7Izy+JmS6d68ygUT DNVgylbke1XTr3cvzU2zS8qzVlP/X1niciCtw7rgreeTHGMU+ZzpsIWpPGz1akwHuuFj GN6zy3pJ4APtVdhxdwez8VGbuA/ypnODswaiQh6OdnqT9qp46q2AFnLVHMou0/IG8BBg 3c7YVeity4hmBTFPZv7N6kSGHlZk+a7iMTarEw5ALvPcwrLtwpwI33At01hm8aPBhWPF GKi7KtzMZQLktNQ8jaCocvYEZJNBlrAtCCtEJ2MW/vXf+Iqk7jRCeShLNDNJYEV5K39u XGRw== Received: by 10.66.89.6 with SMTP id bk6mr16096743pab.81.1347193150854; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 05:18:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:18:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Schenkeveld Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnyWNy7BuywH5vNK3wg0LrnICRy1AAcyt3YqpViJP2h2/nG1PhBCiGyqFgj+rVS/61sVASh Cc: arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:19:12 -0000 On 9 September 2012 06:53, Paul Schenkeveld wrote: > So my plea here is to not remove RCS unless it re-appears in ports. Please discuss only CVS at this point. RCS is another discussion at a different time. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 12:19:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E26106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:19:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635B88FC08 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:19:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so784574dad.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=kWlk0IFViSKAiPO3Kt1VNie1st0wRO+SXvGL2e80CxU=; b=nCXeZYSc1NpHVGFNmz/2pr/S77toltX2L6ZaiOoj0S7Yz2/6ZORj8bJLPbQBje3bOZ kxx0Hc/PWf27DGfa43/SNhxLlYhKo9ubYUexE0m1h6B/aGlvSJLMCRzyHYij+Q71510V pser52JTOjqLW30gAnIgxgtX7ojThf3ftoFSs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=kWlk0IFViSKAiPO3Kt1VNie1st0wRO+SXvGL2e80CxU=; b=GvV0v4PAU4+Wms4GD2xmLqkrP6Edii3UtFCbu8MtSDe2+ce5iMC0ZK2ksbBK4mrUbz h/TS5eZ65LsismWxY3ZVTpgxypUB9PKDc3q4aZ8Do8c6zEa4F+0N1Q6FMpYuHnQNX3pl 2JjgHLAhn84dOqTxaErRwHYIyBbaKaLPPNF8GzhbtBTa67PGLMvIBRhYoyL5RRABHYBl SKfVzMz8Nkj+jm70SWVifPuS0EbZ9sc2j2q2A7vRvYyju8MOn0Iz+D5TU3wNNFda9upW Yx4W/x6l2evV3o1L0klnze8Op6wk3U23Cu2JohgruKbeKCKikv1hFbc/T8ufqmPcYAFB 1adw== Received: by 10.66.89.6 with SMTP id bk6mr16096743pab.81.1347193150854; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 05:19:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 05:18:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <20120909105300.GA35526@psconsult.nl> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 08:18:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Schenkeveld Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQneYKN7uqQft0SOVkZpyMxvkdOAUNO2lvln+S+Q0M13jt/OmFt1M+TtzihBeltpDTCQJY/q Cc: arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:19:12 -0000 On 9 September 2012 06:53, Paul Schenkeveld wrote: > So my plea here is to not remove RCS unless it re-appears in ports. Please discuss only CVS at this point. RCS is another discussion at a different time. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 12:36:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDF61065686; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:36:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C658FC1D; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DE16E99; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 14:36:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 94F0788C2; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 14:36:49 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Olli Hauer References: <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> <504C7FD3.5020702@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 14:36:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <504C7FD3.5020702@FreeBSD.org> (Olli Hauer's message of "Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:38:59 +0200") Message-ID: <86zk4ztlsw.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:36:51 -0000 Olli Hauer writes: > I haven't say RCS it should stay, I have only mentioned on this boxes > it is a handy tool and I have to use the fall-back mode. We're talking about removing cvs, not rcs. I find rcs extremely useful for /etc and /usr/local/etc. It would be even more useful if vi understood rcs like vim does. (it would be even nicer if make understood rcs, which I thought it did, but apparently not...) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 13:34:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE628106566B; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:34:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B57B8FC08; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:34:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E0F6ED1; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:34:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D9BAF88CE; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:34:53 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Warner Losh References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 15:34:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> (Warner Losh's message of "Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:01:43 -0500") Message-ID: <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Olli Hauer , Eitan Adler , Bryan Drewery Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:34:55 -0000 Warner Losh writes: > Since we have traditionally included cvs, it does make sense. People > that use FreeBSD have used it as the basis for systems that they have > deployed, including cvs. There's no compelling reason to removing > right now, and doing so will break some of these people. We had cvs in base because we used it. We no longer do. Nobody maintains it, and it's four years out of date, not to mention that what we have (minus our own modifications, which Eitan has already applied to the port) does not even correspond to any official release that I've been able to identify - the code matches, but the ancillary files don't. > Let's let this round of changes to the FreeBSD source system shake out > before we become eager to kick cvs out. Perhaps revisit for 11? What round of changes? We've used Subversion for base for years. Now doc and ports use it too, and portmgr@ have already announced that they will stop supporting CVS by the end of February 2013. Anybody who's actively developing FreeBSD or maintaining local diffs is already using Subversion, and if they aren't, they should. Everybody else uses csup, or ought to - it is much, much faster than cvs co / cvs up. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 16:30:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A41F106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:130:3ffc::401:25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85EFE8FC12 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99BA225D3A17 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C060EBE84AE for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mRyH03EBIY0r for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nv.sbone.de (nv.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FE3BBE84AD for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:40 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:39 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1567029896-1347208240=:13080" Cc: Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 16:30:44 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1567029896-1347208240=:13080 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > We had cvs in base because we used it. We no longer do. We still do until about 2015 when FreeBSD 8 is expected to end (depending on 8.4 to happen and when). The fact that you(pl) do not do is different. -- Bjoern A. Zeeb You have to have visions! Stop bit received. Insert coin for new address family. --0-1567029896-1347208240=:13080-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 16:58:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A99106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:58:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF2D8FC14 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:58:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so1428009pbb.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 09:58:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7bNGaZIsH/jilBx6wEN6UIVYOJthTylFNevPpx784qY=; b=gAtoGuJV3YC9dGTaUtLLttLfPbAGPG0fv0aTTzbP1aKt1hWF/cqd+Zj4ZmqPTQOEob FwcGGtBTouiDYuXBhCNsJUXZh2EhgwWofP2RarAvKlErErpvUE0r+fIzvJYRr8vbxgBl JXy3udZNkGr/wOg0MXBSutkv+j13W0m7zFxYM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=7bNGaZIsH/jilBx6wEN6UIVYOJthTylFNevPpx784qY=; b=dqG9gH9+1S11xQvec7oSAb+BTLxk4KIjWUUOSrFqVhahFjeb8cP8xj3jiPN0II34TA zM6nimgXs23wV4ztQJlMccOzTbzlg8L0VesDesHqH8ilJIpOjjrTF/o/Mr3hXDnhNC0X iZKey/DDmFN0SDQUZ8OJANcvQVK0euB6sIY5uJ0NGLOLUHKwrXRFNH6AfzeZ0Gs4Jecm h/B6vRNNaOUQOLqoYRb5XcO47Z6Tq9bm3KzR4Bm55yjcdnpFqwh1aMnsf6pD76MWwFpP ToZ+8+JhRFHveyApsbzDIkAApmRCAYU440rkSECERfYF+uvQx2Q4vceg3dmZNX5fpLG3 gGag== Received: by 10.68.138.133 with SMTP id qq5mr997587pbb.86.1347209898581; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 09:58:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 09:57:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:57:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkvGeIifgpO3ygxfR7B3DtOOMuzUx18SM/9nNI/DSPPFjL+a/ghMGoaAIBr8SDIJoLYVtQI Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 16:58:20 -0000 On 9 September 2012 12:30, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > >> We had cvs in base because we used it. We no longer do. > > > We still do until about 2015 when FreeBSD 8 is expected to end > (depending on 8.4 to happen and when). We are only discussing remove CVS from HEAD. It does not affect the stable branches (as I do not intend to MFC the removal). --=20 Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 17:35:14 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C709106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:130:3ffc::401:25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E818FC0A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2BDE25D38A5; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF258BE84AE; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6dOl4iGIw38Z; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nv.sbone.de (nv.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C92FBE84AD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:35:09 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: Eitan Adler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1746275288-1347212110=:13080" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:35:14 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1746275288-1347212110=:13080 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Eitan Adler wrote: > On 9 September 2012 12:30, Bjoern A. Zeeb > wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> >>> We had cvs in base because we used it. We no longer do. >> >> >> We still do until about 2015 when FreeBSD 8 is expected to end >> (depending on 8.4 to happen and when). > > We are only discussing remove CVS from HEAD. It does not affect the > stable branches (as I do not intend to MFC the removal). It does; but let me ask another thing - is the cvs in ports equivalent to the cvs in base? If not, we should first fix that, as head has FreeBSD specifics in there... -- Bjoern A. Zeeb You have to have visions! Stop bit received. Insert coin for new address family. --0-1746275288-1347212110=:13080-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 17:42:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1DA106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:42:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2251C8FC08 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:42:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so877563dad.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=RepC6S5P7f4KexTEhHA2wU6u0DmFHS16TrWC0NPiPyI=; b=uRdHGa/MIinMxDKOJaz4ohBCI6B/JD83Yso1PnqQ0VHape5aYCLf0ow8wyKLOJJeu4 yQzi+DmrWUzeV+Z7iFjuSHScSv5wd7ZajmfEezFsptH0JXUQ+ecI8l5xEzrDzKidUk16 bT5XohDpav08Myqtnmt1b+VGuw/MvFoRP0e+o= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=RepC6S5P7f4KexTEhHA2wU6u0DmFHS16TrWC0NPiPyI=; b=a31a4NXPrZPEdoi+lv5eyB1plFgiP5uFhpkQEWEz9i3zQOfyVRT+ZncHEkbT5/EBjO lJ/d/Yxa0aXvboFmArz8hk/9X/1gofHEhy/FB8h/6ztreNnNzOypopFGGuw3HDJZuQd0 vhbJW1XDNoB669ybEBfyy+hPiQYYwTkwQWQkPyOQI6+ul63vfIG/0ShD+Vry7XCKlj4L OINAFCFM52c/ER8/Yx7foLPd7WM8u8p3PtEgHyf6Q4iYqk6qtYPM44mSvljD1+roQiS7 sDVYxpIi51mRiPyamNbhttk9ReOrDy5I0TFg8g12erqUAIalixATEu2dEIhvUO0KW1Xe cyqg== Received: by 10.68.242.231 with SMTP id wt7mr1189129pbc.99.1347212530759; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:42:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 10:41:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:41:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlsMJLIc4UA+bN9zJW1aqDIdTRlESgpN7YAW7WVnjBpJB+qwIvjGlSdulAaB62K630M89FX Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:42:11 -0000 On 9 September 2012 13:35, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > It does; but let me ask another thing - is the cvs in ports equivalent > to the cvs in base? If not, we should first fix that, as head has > FreeBSD specifics in there... devel/cvs is a tarred up copy of cvs in base with very minor modifications (ex: sed s/DESTDIR/PREFIX) -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 17:54:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89162106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bzeeb-lists@lists.zabbadoz.net) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:130:3ffc::401:25]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351778FC1C for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39D9725D38C4; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62C99BE8521; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LK3teeM7OfbF; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nv.sbone.de (nv.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE477BE84AD; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:38 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:54:38 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: Eitan Adler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-OpenPGP-Key-Id: 0x14003F198FEFA3E77207EE8D2B58B8F83CCF1842 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:54:42 -0000 On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Eitan Adler wrote: > On 9 September 2012 13:35, Bjoern A. Zeeb > wrote: >> It does; but let me ask another thing - is the cvs in ports equivalent >> to the cvs in base? If not, we should first fix that, as head has >> FreeBSD specifics in there... > > devel/cvs is a tarred up copy of cvs in base with very minor > modifications (ex: sed s/DESTDIR/PREFIX) Hmm, for UUCP we actually preserved the history in different waym which is another problem in itself. See below. We, btw, also still have multiple active cvs repositories used by the project, both external and internal, so claims that we don't use it anymore are not true;) I think people are working on the internal ones to fix this already. I shouldn't mention it but projetcvs still needs to be migrated somehow. I'd suggest going ahead in small steps; fix development.7, fix release man page and scripts, fix Makefile.inc1, ... in HEAD to no logner know about CVS, fix ports like freebsd-uucp to no longer depend on it, ... Once this is all done and base is basically clean, and an exp run for ports was done, come back and see. Everything else is the wrong order anyway. This will also give other a proper longer term heads-up to see how much work it'll take them. /bz -- Bjoern A. Zeeb You have to have visions! Stop bit received. Insert coin for new address family. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 18:53:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2761065672 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:53:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034418FC08 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:53:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so1494733pbb.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=fphsndS4kGiV4VXDMffcQpyaG2RrhWQE2PJZa1Xjtqk=; b=WAOg8zQ3AK6cbjh/EyjhGAkP922kJo0P2pncXEJOYsUoJm6fhHym/qqRbTeIKaO196 jBHkwRwN6EYEY2XmSBzTmzZdW1+L80m5/FKzF4d+MYG1hWmJTCYDWXD2GwUhtZF7YZLk yPQgxigI/Bz2S6Fe4sz5rdbeC5nHDHdfBtraU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=fphsndS4kGiV4VXDMffcQpyaG2RrhWQE2PJZa1Xjtqk=; b=UrmxqpALARyUr63MZvDncu3WEhjAyCPuWjJHoOkI8ZHSJPtb+CU+ZYuZt9t0RkQDh3 MNrAhzjCEPsluWV4RNLn3CKqYzXQfr2gSO8bQk1g4igUqWSn5WcOOCkYlpF4B2UQ4sBp kMtJCT10vih13hTkX0fHWq28ZZz+MbHdBCffzWr9XzcIU8ynh9VmW6maoTlQQ5qVjdM4 ama5uY4+xHBZ5qUj4j2AEmHRbLwwphT0Qu7fmJBzHxhqQ6WEhdDyZo/UUqEAjLqGGYdB 1lfihUN3T/ATefZDt261Ik3ToenHbYVaI3HUsGNpijYrNEYgkqT4cxtNVvIO9QgDgiKy Gtmg== Received: by 10.68.224.73 with SMTP id ra9mr1510969pbc.85.1347216807476; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 11:52:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 14:52:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkJQYnQQRehrWutnTLl8xGir7ebu+1CKdHLavhGlQOFXE54SzFHUQ4EXwBhmc90OuzqRlVC Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:53:28 -0000 On 9 September 2012 13:54, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > We, btw, also still have multiple active cvs repositories used by the > project, both external and internal, so claims that we don't use it > anymore are not true;) By the time that 10.0 is released this will no longer be true. > I think people are working on the internal > ones to fix this already. I shouldn't mention it but projetcvs still > needs to be migrated somehow. I even mentioned projectcvs in my original email. > I'd suggest going ahead in small steps; fix development.7, fix release > man page and scripts, fix Makefile.inc1, ... in HEAD to no logner know > about CVS, fix ports like freebsd-uucp to no longer depend on it, ... I have a patch for development.7 and am working on some other areas too. > Once this is all done and base is basically clean, and an exp run for > ports was done, come back and see. An exp-run won't catch run errors. cvs *build* dependencies should be rare or non-existent, but I agree one would be needed. > Everything else is the wrong order > anyway. What do you mean? > This will also give other a proper longer term heads-up to see how > much work it'll take them. I don't mind committing in parts. However I'm not sure exactly what this buys us given that it would be gone in 10.0 in any case. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 18:59:26 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C471065672; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:59:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D538FC0A; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:59:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q89IxQlc083074; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:59:26 GMT (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from bapt@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q89IxQx8083011; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:59:26 GMT (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: bapt set sender to bapt@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 20:59:23 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20120909185923.GE11175@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> References: <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org> <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="19uQFt6ulqmgNgg1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Olli Hauer , Tim Kientzle , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:59:27 -0000 --19uQFt6ulqmgNgg1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 06:31:37AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org>, Olli Hauer writes: >=20 > >Yep, I support some machines which are running a stock > >FreeBSD without any port installed ... > >If I have to work on this machines RCS is a really handy tool. >=20 > And because you have some machines without any ports (why btw ?) > you think it is reasonable that every other FreeBSD machine should > drag around RCS ? RCS can be replace by OpenRCS which is BSDL, apparently (I haven't check personnally) they have reach the point were it can be a drop-in replacement. regards, Bapt --19uQFt6ulqmgNgg1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBM5wsACgkQ8kTtMUmk6Ez73wCeLxI48Hy9GxpDOQyGhVzT5MQe iQ4An0HmQ+lxTEtzk36sKOKDVIaT2qt+ =dvbu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --19uQFt6ulqmgNgg1-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 19:06:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B4F1065673 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 19:06:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C738FC14 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 19:06:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadr6 with SMTP id r6so905761dad.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:06:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=RGdIiOjbSzglJExwM9MQzRKaSrcByhtnEzIpVTThpNU=; b=CukDLuithwX6DwCo9d/Ykq7yGl4DwqwGqoxjIpAWvaSkWDOB+v0Wjwqx2t2DRQmFIe EyunIxq15YovLXYV7DIQMin+81e4it71plHzzEyl/MlJEEsiU7Wxarw78LcxHdsTsCRP UQU9pTTFIJmwAEtqC/fhleDh+VU+x1m6kVLaE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=RGdIiOjbSzglJExwM9MQzRKaSrcByhtnEzIpVTThpNU=; b=Ptn+SHpYRJqvYiY6T7hHa9Wh5NsV3+/40JNOIYgMTCIGJr7VAHfZ297d0WII+4K2oX T9d5liWVm4XnvbLCFaYW0FY07DLTIRcrELkIf/E7LvbIS+2Sl+uX8L5HDfLeykN7TkIy 4c/HcJVplmqAC6XBj31EsAW79ePOdGw+DEohTQgyVHWH3McADUU6wKG2k4VIKLej7ohE 7z+rtqUuqlQRTHvJKVUGEMzm1FvkYG6OytR7VIjorjB+8A9ublvXJFCTfGZvbn8qPl+t iB5QOVpfhRsYmd5C/yQGOSctqPj30EyFiSuvgACdYcMQUFiAPKaDGvZA1e6LEnWylwNc 8YoQ== Received: by 10.68.224.73 with SMTP id ra9mr1565039pbc.85.1347217560238; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:06:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.193.101 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:05:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120909185923.GE11175@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> References: <504BE4CC.5020706@FreeBSD.org> <8407.1347172297@critter.freebsd.dk> <20120909185923.GE11175@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:05:29 -0400 Message-ID: To: Baptiste Daroussin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkJHmSUNE8iMod94TubBSccFQHBaYClRCztfGOo0jYBwD889+Ss2sbrveiZLOsiX6FzUKiZ Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Olli Hauer , Poul-Henning Kamp , Tim Kientzle Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 19:06:01 -0000 On 9 September 2012 14:59, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > RCS can be replace by OpenRCS which is BSDL, apparently (I haven't check > personnally) they have reach the point were it can be a drop-in replacement. Can we please keep this discussion focused on CVS. I am not proposing to remove/replace/modify RCS at this time. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 23:53:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A6B106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:53:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A324114DE0E; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:53:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 16:53:08 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 23:53:15 -0000 On 9/8/2012 7:59 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > I think it is a mistake to actively remove these at this time, for > reasons that jhb@, et al, have discussed at length: These are useful > tools, traditionally installed. So was UUCP when it was removed. :) And if you find CVS useful, you can install it from ports. > The space savings in negligible and there's already a knob for turning them off. It isn't about space savings in my mind. There's one goal to remove yet another GPL thing from the base. There's another to continue the process of stripping down the base to the lowest common denominator, and putting everything else in ports. And Eitan brought up a good point regarding the fact that we have no one maintaining the code at this time, which means that "FreeBSD CVS" is a bastardized version that is totally un-interoperable with anything else calling itself "CVS." (Actually I think this fact should be more clear in the new port, FWIW.) > The project's source distribution system changes aren't a valid > reason to change things at this time. It isn't the changes in the project's VCS that makes the difference directly, it's the fact that these changes make the base CVS anachronistic for the overwhelming majority of our users. And as we finally deploy SVN mirrors this becomes more true every day. Yes, things are changing. Yes, change is hard. No, the fact that some old timers find something useful should not be the deciding factor. We have a long way to go until 10-RELEASE, and a long uptake cycle after that. By the time even a significant percentage of our users are actually using 10.something the momentum will have shifted entirely to SVN. ... and anyone using 10 who needs CVS can install it from ports. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 9 23:55:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B627106564A for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:55:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7EF8FC12 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:55:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q89NtWab012079; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:55:34 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:55:32 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Message-ID: <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 23:55:36 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:30:39 +0000 (UTC) "Bjoern A. Zeeb" wrote: > On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: >=20 > > We had cvs in base because we used it. We no longer do. >=20 > We still do until about 2015 when FreeBSD 8 is expected to end > (depending on 8.4 to happen and when). >=20 this is a figure which sounds much more reasonable. I would suggest to keep it in the system and announce its end when older system like 8.x or 9.x are at the end of their life time. The users of the old system would then still be able to upgrade their system in any case but know then that this is the last time that it works. They have then the time to change their scripts until they will move to the next version which might will lack the support. > The fact that you(pl) do not do is different. >=20 There is also a big difference between the developers and the users out there. This would not be the only point where users are simply ignored. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 00:01:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD7D1065675 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:01:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DF414F643; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:01:17 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:01:17 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:01:41 -0000 On 9/9/2012 4:55 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > I would suggest to keep it in the system and announce its end when > older system like 8.x or 9.x are at the end of their life time. I think you misunderstand the proposal. No one is suggesting removing CVS from FreeBSD 7, 8, or 9. It will _only_ be removed from what is now HEAD, which will eventually be 10.0-RELEASE. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 00:03:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FE7106567D for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:03:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13AA8FC24 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:03:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8A03W1t013807; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:03:34 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:03:31 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:03:37 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 12:57:48 -0400 Eitan Adler wrote: > On 9 September 2012 12:30, Bjoern A. Zeeb > wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > > > >> We had cvs in base because we used it. We no longer do. > > > > > > We still do until about 2015 when FreeBSD 8 is expected to end > > (depending on 8.4 to happen and when). >=20 > We are only discussing remove CVS from HEAD. It does not affect the > stable branches (as I do not intend to MFC the removal). >=20 >=20 >=20 you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when upgrading. Removing a basic component should work the other way around. It should stay in the base system as long as there are servers out there supporting it. Then the infrastructure for the new system must be put into place. When the infrastructure for the new system is up and running, the infrastructure for the old system can be taken down. It is nothing more than the story of the chicken and the egg. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 00:17:29 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF26106566B for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:17:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@dougbarton.us) Received: from mail2.fluidhosting.com (mx22.fluidhosting.com [204.14.89.5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6C48FC08 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:17:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 21115 invoked by uid 399); 10 Sep 2012 00:10:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.102?) (dougb@dougbarton.us@12.207.105.210) by mail2.fluidhosting.com with ESMTPAM; 10 Sep 2012 00:10:35 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 12.207.105.210 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:10:42 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Eitan Adler , "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:17:29 -0000 On 9/9/2012 5:03 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when upgrading. If a user has managed to get all the way to the point where they are upgrading to 10.x (which won't be for another year or two) without having switched over to subversion then they can install CVS from ports. This change simply reflects what reality is going to look like when 10.0-RELEASE comes out. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 00:52:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B5B1065670; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:52:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288D58FC0C; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:52:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8A0qgti025118; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:52:44 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:52:41 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:52:46 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:01:17 -0700 Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/9/2012 4:55 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > I would suggest to keep it in the system and announce its end when > > older system like 8.x or 9.x are at the end of their life time. > > I think you misunderstand the proposal. No one is suggesting removing > CVS from FreeBSD 7, 8, or 9. It will _only_ be removed from what is > now HEAD, which will eventually be 10.0-RELEASE. > this is how I understand it. The problem I see is from the end-user perspective. They will upgrade to 10 and suddenly everything they developed stops working. I would suggest to start from the infrastructure side by getting more mirrors for the new system while phasing the mirrors for the old system out. Users are then not forced to make the sudden change. Please do not tell me that they should read UPDATING. They only will after they ran into trouble. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 00:59:11 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60408106564A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:59:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7778FC0A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:59:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8A0x4KK026870; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:59:05 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:59:03 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20120910075903.10ec8351@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Eitan Adler , "Bjoern A. Zeeb" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:59:11 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:10:42 -0700 Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/9/2012 5:03 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when > > upgrading. > > If a user has managed to get all the way to the point where they are > upgrading to 10.x (which won't be for another year or two) without > having switched over to subversion then they can install CVS from > ports. > > This change simply reflects what reality is going to look like when > 10.0-RELEASE comes out. allow me to copy from the handbook: 'The FreeBSD svn mirror network is still in its early days, and will likely change. Do not count on this list of mirrors being static. In particular, the SSL certificates of the servers will likely change at some point.' What is the reason not to wait for the infrastructure to be ready before turning a knob off? The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS mirros. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 02:12:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79D5106566C for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:12:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC74814D8C4; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:12:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504D4C76.6080205@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 19:12:06 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:12:54 -0000 On 9/9/2012 5:52 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:01:17 -0700 > Doug Barton wrote: > >> On 9/9/2012 4:55 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >>> I would suggest to keep it in the system and announce its end when >>> older system like 8.x or 9.x are at the end of their life time. >> >> I think you misunderstand the proposal. No one is suggesting removing >> CVS from FreeBSD 7, 8, or 9. It will _only_ be removed from what is >> now HEAD, which will eventually be 10.0-RELEASE. >> > this is how I understand it. The problem I see is from the end-user > perspective. They will upgrade to 10 and suddenly everything they > developed stops working. You keep conveniently removing the parts of my posts where I point out that CVS is now, and will remain, available from ports for those users. And in the next few years there will be, as there already have been; numerous announcements about the value of moving to subversion, new mirrors, etc. > I would suggest to start from the infrastructure side by getting more > mirrors for the new system while phasing the mirrors for the old system > out. That's already in play, and will continue to improve in the years before we even have a 10.0-RELEASE, never mind before it gets wide adoption. > Users are then not forced to make the sudden change. They won't be. > Please do not tell me that they should read UPDATING. They only will > after they ran into trouble. If they miss all the memos about moving to subversion, that won't be our fault. :) > The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS mirros. This is quite simply untrue. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 02:41:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810EB106564A; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:41:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C818FC14; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:41:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.37]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8A2fUl4020582; Sun, 9 Sep 2012 20:41:31 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 09:41:29 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20120910094129.56fea061@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <504D4C76.6080205@FreeBSD.org> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D4C76.6080205@FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 02:41:33 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 19:12:06 -0700 Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/9/2012 5:52 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:01:17 -0700 > > Doug Barton wrote: > > > >> On 9/9/2012 4:55 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > >>> I would suggest to keep it in the system and announce its end when > >>> older system like 8.x or 9.x are at the end of their life time. > >> > >> I think you misunderstand the proposal. No one is suggesting > >> removing CVS from FreeBSD 7, 8, or 9. It will _only_ be removed > >> from what is now HEAD, which will eventually be 10.0-RELEASE. > >> > > this is how I understand it. The problem I see is from the end-user > > perspective. They will upgrade to 10 and suddenly everything they > > developed stops working. > > You keep conveniently removing the parts of my posts where I point out > that CVS is now, and will remain, available from ports for those > users. And in the next few years there will be, as there already have > been; numerous announcements about the value of moving to subversion, > new mirrors, etc. > I also took out the part from others and myself where we said that there are systems running without ports installed on them. > > I would suggest to start from the infrastructure side by getting > > more mirrors for the new system while phasing the mirrors for the > > old system out. > > That's already in play, and will continue to improve in the years > before we even have a 10.0-RELEASE, never mind before it gets wide > adoption. I fully agree with this. > > > Users are then not forced to make the sudden change. > > They won't be. > > > Please do not tell me that they should read UPDATING. They only will > > after they ran into trouble. > > If they miss all the memos about moving to subversion, that won't be > our fault. :) > Of course not. It is just how it is done. > > The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS > > mirros. > > This is quite simply untrue. > This is the point where the developers (I also was one) forget psychology. Technically it is untrue, practically it is not. As I said, people will read UPDATING after they ran into problems. I see it this way. Nothing will break as long as you leave it there. You mark it depreciated, you mark it unsupported, you mark it whatever but leave it there. Normal users might run into problems over time as it is not supported anymore. They can then switch softly to subversion. When you remove it when the infrastructure is really there, you will not get a single complaint. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 04:01:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56A81065670 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:01:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558BB8FC18 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:01:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iebc12 with SMTP id c12so2911485ieb.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=Sj1ybOMt76dqecnvJk+3goG0b2vWKbE0gGoa0VJfBWc=; b=idebPG8MOXM5iIF3606VBB0fwvFA5mxXgo59ouq+CNZCMD77M+W4Q6+UzSq2uO/jZa Mq/5GE2JOBNoyHbiwD1/P0S43ezhuLOXRcBQrlC8tuPS9bSho0HiGK3y64If96ublvJN bW8nCLslwoM0NkSVDykYWSp9ItFpkeEh0b7XnCgJhQrmxRgP7GUeClEhr/JberZxuAFj GZJEjPzAAHNUpBn90M8dpxVrD6ATGHIkI2Ens/uF31fAIDxyV1ubdIiKhv6p6vS58Adc pFkqwJgiNycVLZL3w/aTMhds4Mhg/aP62VjuAGOuKXS71T5bCpCgOjWHDlJe5QMn4+Es MhwQ== Received: by 10.50.195.164 with SMTP id if4mr8209770igc.20.1347249709180; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fm8sm17676822igc.8.2012.09.09.21.01.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:01:45 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnUXFxlP0s50FqYzOhDjsfV6WzpLDFxZAOt+xS3cRl9IMCFfChcabx8yUcBAh7xuhpzg2IR Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:01:55 -0000 On Sep 9, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > We have a long way to go until 10-RELEASE, and a long uptake cycle = after > that. By the time even a significant percentage of our users are > actually using 10.something the momentum will have shifted entirely to > SVN. ... and anyone using 10 who needs CVS can install it from ports. I'll point out that "what things should be like at 10.0" is difficult to = predict today. Saying the project will be a particular way weakens the = argument given the project's glorious history on such pronouncements... = It is a great goal, but I'd rather see more concrete progress towards = the goal before pulling the trigger. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 04:05:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68DBB106566C for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:05:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B3E8FC08 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:05:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so1762205iay.13 for ; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=hWrxKm7OgGdCH/fv0xNR3no6GjLo+0z2nzciXc64zmQ=; b=QpZQAoeOFuH3a035yAK0FgCDYzqpplKP2c0beLvY+c/H0NTAi6NiAxRRqfe+zVtmXu p2jLyshUrXYr5dyLQ0/8fVHi/2Vq+TsMl5aSdsCSoYo2xXzB+hPatADbp8lZ01hUJja2 fG9s13e0lzEQWU9QAdCxEdpZtyJ05r/IGpy2+RaYmMum5H0lw27g20M3NjfEuVWV0is7 6eIeyWHZQlgTEO1A5O2nl8aTjUUhIvJLtQAJhdWT4vFr4hoZQsPtL44G/VpjREeaPtRi X/llg90rykmGh0NRvqUfuNAv8f3rg5gsdlTM3cYmDZa4jJvo4uRyEs86TwW5Ue8ETUz/ aEZg== Received: by 10.50.184.135 with SMTP id eu7mr8357331igc.15.1347249922274; Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ua5sm9780828igb.10.2012.09.09.21.05.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:05:18 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B3BEE3A-B546-49AC-8660-DF5DD7955348@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlkopQeAuZYS3JUxxK+W5Ro9KluMeNo2D+ikpdJ8wdg/YxFGE1js4bNVpmwQRu6kGV/5Ja8 Cc: Erich Dollansky , arch@freebsd.org, "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:05:23 -0000 On Sep 9, 2012, at 7:10 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/9/2012 5:03 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: >> you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when = upgrading. >=20 > If a user has managed to get all the way to the point where they are > upgrading to 10.x (which won't be for another year or two) without > having switched over to subversion then they can install CVS from = ports. >=20 > This change simply reflects what reality is going to look like when > 10.0-RELEASE comes out. "is going to look like" is a great goal. All people here are saying is = that when more pieces are in place, come back with this proposal. It is = still a bit premature. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 04:39:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6538106564A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:39:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D0D14F340; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:39:04 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:39:04 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:39:04 -0000 On 9/9/2012 9:01 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sep 9, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >> We have a long way to go until 10-RELEASE, and a long uptake cycle after >> that. By the time even a significant percentage of our users are >> actually using 10.something the momentum will have shifted entirely to >> SVN. ... and anyone using 10 who needs CVS can install it from ports. > > I'll point out that "what things should be like at 10.0" is difficult to predict today. Saying the project will be a particular way weakens the argument given the project's glorious history on such pronouncements... It is a great goal, but I'd rather see more concrete progress towards the goal before pulling the trigger. Oddly, the opposite argument was put forth for removing sysinstall in HEAD when there was no replacement available for the post-install features of sysinstall. The fact that it got removed anyway helped spur action regarding its replacement. The balls are already rolling towards getting SVN mirrors in place, and anyone who still needs CVS years from now can install it from ports. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 04:47:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BF1106564A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:47:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B3D14DC12; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:47:18 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504D70D6.50707@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:47:18 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Dollansky References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D4C76.6080205@FreeBSD.org> <20120910094129.56fea061@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20120910094129.56fea061@X220.ovitrap.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:47:19 -0000 On 9/9/2012 7:41 PM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 19:12:06 -0700 > Doug Barton wrote: > >> You keep conveniently removing the parts of my posts where I point out >> that CVS is now, and will remain, available from ports for those >> users. And in the next few years there will be, as there already have >> been; numerous announcements about the value of moving to subversion, >> new mirrors, etc. >> > I also took out the part from others and myself where we said that > there are systems running without ports installed on them. What does that have to do with anything? If users choose not to take advantage of the entire operating _system_, we can't be responsible for their bad decisions. >>> The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS >>> mirros. >> >> This is quite simply untrue. >> > This is the point where the developers (I also was one) forget > psychology. Um, I have a degree in psychology. The psychology of this change is not "Users will believe that CVS repos have magically disappeared if they can't find a cvs binary in the base." The psychology of this is "Change is hard." We can't postpone reasonable changes made on a technical basis because some users have emotional issues about the fact that we have moved from CVS to SVN. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the truth. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 09:07:40 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267B51065670 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 09:07:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) Received: from onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru (onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru [IPv6:2a01:4f8:131:60a2::2]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26018FC15 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 09:07:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lion.home.serebryakov.spb.ru (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:923f:1:31e6:f1e:dd72:edd6]) (Authenticated sender: lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) by onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 805414AC2D; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:07:38 +0400 (MSK) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:07:36 +0400 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 09:07:40 -0000 Hello, Dag-Erling. You wrote 9 =D1=81=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=82=D1=8F=D0=B1=D1=80=D1=8F 2012 =D0=B3., = 17:34:53: DES> Subversion, and if they aren't, they should. Everybody else uses csup, DES> or ought to - it is much, much faster than cvs co / cvs up. It is another question: if ports isn't exported to CVS from Ferb 2013, how to use csup with them after this date? --=20 // Black Lion AKA Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 10:17:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0F0106564A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:17:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vps.rulingia.com (host-122-100-2-194.octopus.com.au [122.100.2.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9528FC14 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:17:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.rulingia.com (c220-239-249-137.belrs5.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.249.137]) by vps.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8AAHL6w034969 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8AAHFPq004300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8AAHB4q004299; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:11 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20120910101711.GA2511@server.rulingia.com> References: <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> <20120910075903.10ec8351@X220.ovitrap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120910075903.10ec8351@X220.ovitrap.com> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:17:44 -0000 --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2012-Sep-10 07:03:31 +0700, Erich Dollansky wrote: >you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when upgrading. Please explain this. A "typical user" doesn't use CVS so they will never notice its absence. The rare user that uses CVS (and these can be expected to become rarer over time as people migrate to other VCSs) can install it from ports. >Removing a basic component should work the other way around. Why do you consider CVS a "basic component" of FreeBSD? CVS was in the base system to support FreeBSD development but FreeBSD has moved on so there's no longer any technical reason to keep CVS in the base system. It's also GPL and FreeBSD has a long-term goal of removing all GPL code from the base system. > It should >stay in the base system as long as there are servers out there >supporting it. What do you mean by "servers ... supporting" CVS? If you're talking about FreeBSD, 9.0-RELEASE is the last release that will be available via CVS. Why should the FreeBSD 10 base system include support for a VCS that doesn't support it? If you're talking non-FreeBSD uses then there will be support for CVS servers via the ports system. On 2012-Sep-10 07:59:03 +0700, Erich Dollansky wrote: >The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS mirros. I don't follow this statement. No-one is stopping anyone else using CVS. --=20 Peter Jeremy --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBNvicACgkQ/opHv/APuIfeBwCfefFPdJSvqKtYE5G5rS+CQEww 5foAoKvoC3HXLxi/AcqWCMmky8YTzNF+ =t/+3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nFreZHaLTZJo0R7j-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 11:59:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C66D71065674 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:59:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erichfreebsdlist@ovitrap.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F75D8FC16 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:59:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8ABxhjt001164; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 05:59:44 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:36:38 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Peter Jeremy Message-ID: <20120910183638.2adcb9f3@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: <20120910101711.GA2511@server.rulingia.com> References: <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> <20120910075903.10ec8351@X220.ovitrap.com> <20120910101711.GA2511@server.rulingia.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Eitan Adler , Doug Barton , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:59:57 -0000 Hi, On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:11 +1000 Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2012-Sep-10 07:03:31 +0700, Erich Dollansky > wrote: > >you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when > >upgrading. > > Please explain this. A "typical user" doesn't use CVS so they will > never notice its absence. The rare user that uses CVS (and these can > be expected to become rarer over time as people migrate to other VCSs) > can install it from ports. > I would call a typical user a person who reads this: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/updating-upgrading.html and acts accordingly. > >Removing a basic component should work the other way around. > > Why do you consider CVS a "basic component" of FreeBSD? CVS was in > the base system to support FreeBSD development but FreeBSD has moved > on so there's no longer any technical reason to keep CVS in the base > system. It's also GPL and FreeBSD has a long-term goal of removing > all GPL code from the base system. > The handbook is not a technical reason. Yes. The user base who just follows the handbook is also no technical reason. Ignoring them is also no technical reason. > > It should > >stay in the base system as long as there are servers out there > >supporting it. > > What do you mean by "servers ... supporting" CVS? If you're talking > about FreeBSD, 9.0-RELEASE is the last release that will be available > via CVS. Why should the FreeBSD 10 base system include support for a > VCS that doesn't support it? If you're talking non-FreeBSD uses then > there will be support for CVS servers via the ports system. > > On 2012-Sep-10 07:59:03 +0700, Erich Dollansky > wrote: > >The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS > >mirros. > > I don't follow this statement. No-one is stopping anyone else using > CVS. > I know this when considering just this thread. There is a second one saying that the support using CVS for the ports will be stopped. Again, when a user followed strictly the the handbook, the user did not even hear yet from subversion. Erich From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 13:07:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3E01065670 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:07:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B068FC0A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:07:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD2061C5; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:07:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 982F589EC; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:07:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Lev Serebryakov References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:07:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> (Lev Serebryakov's message of "Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:07:36 +0400") Message-ID: <86vcfmhvqw.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:07:21 -0000 Lev Serebryakov writes: > "Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav" writes: > > Subversion, and if they aren't, they should. Everybody else uses csup, > > or ought to - it is much, much faster than cvs co / cvs up. > It is another question: if ports isn't exported to CVS from > Ferb 2013, how to use csup with them after this date? Use portsnap. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 13:27:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C6E106564A; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:27:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A438FC15; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:27:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16CB161D1; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:27:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CEEE589F2; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:27:48 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Doug Barton References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:27:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> (Doug Barton's message of "Sun, 09 Sep 2012 16:53:08 -0700") Message-ID: <86oblehusr.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:27:50 -0000 Doug Barton writes: > And Eitan brought up a good point regarding the fact that we have no one > maintaining the code at this time, which means that "FreeBSD CVS" is a > bastardized version that is totally un-interoperable with anything else > calling itself "CVS." (Actually I think this fact should be more clear > in the new port, FWIW.) That is incorrect. Our CVS interoperates just fine with stock CVS, but it has a few features which stock CVS lacks. For instance, it handles read-only repositories correctly, and can be configured to format dates according to ISO 8601. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 13:30:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F97106564A; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:30:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019C88FC08; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:30:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819AE61D4; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:30:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 55A5689F5; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:30:09 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Erich Dollansky References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910065532.3f029c4b@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D2DCD.8030508@FreeBSD.org> <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:30:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120910075241.3994a95e@X220.ovitrap.com> (Erich Dollansky's message of "Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:52:41 +0700") Message-ID: <86k3w2huov.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Doug Barton , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:30:13 -0000 Erich Dollansky writes: > The problem I see is from the end-user perspective. They will upgrade > to 10 and suddenly everything they developed stops working. That's just nonsense. > Please do not tell me that they should read UPDATING. They only will > after they ran into trouble. That's their problem, not ours. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 15:28:08 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3591065673 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:28:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CB08FC0C for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:28:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iebc12 with SMTP id c12so4226111ieb.13 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=YWVhPLb6/91MT6Z/pTmxb66ZeZwUVdwjC64RVtBEd5c=; b=ggfIuCTnKmhfze4DXk+02q0iczwPysBwksQrse92DN1hMh49LxAToVJd0Hgxx4z7iY 1v/ueQtb0NARa8/OpT9iiaxg6yyrS05++70aEY4PpLzaqXt/Q1Hqu27d8yaU1I4ljt6N U8zlEDtVkTAg5L0Fjb7tPecymknIv/fsqYg7Wf2lnWmm/94SbMvu5BnDiAPy4nnLJU+q uiyYOxGLPQ34jR7nMXFW6TQ30I2lIwx/PEWrZW/+4qUJlMsnMFpGazw2VT+yc14Lb5C+ yZtyzGLe6AVGX4Y195tYI/YGhN9/rrWlixL2Vr6UrDgT+Ax80VTsLptVDbpaXYKTJzMC ysNA== Received: by 10.50.171.6 with SMTP id aq6mr11789777igc.72.1347290887089; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bo7sm21428598igb.2.2012.09.10.08.28.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:28:00 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm++PeZtz/+GeXt4o9VWm4RKTvA+3EkZIFQ80Nwr6vc8vefnyyv4ew46sBl49+I5wVzfyHv Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:28:08 -0000 On Sep 9, 2012, at 11:39 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/9/2012 9:01 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >>=20 >> On Sep 9, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >>> We have a long way to go until 10-RELEASE, and a long uptake cycle = after >>> that. By the time even a significant percentage of our users are >>> actually using 10.something the momentum will have shifted entirely = to >>> SVN. ... and anyone using 10 who needs CVS can install it from = ports. >>=20 >> I'll point out that "what things should be like at 10.0" is difficult = to predict today. Saying the project will be a particular way weakens = the argument given the project's glorious history on such = pronouncements... It is a great goal, but I'd rather see more concrete = progress towards the goal before pulling the trigger. >=20 > Oddly, the opposite argument was put forth for removing sysinstall in > HEAD when there was no replacement available for the post-install > features of sysinstall. The fact that it got removed anyway helped = spur > action regarding its replacement. And we've had plenty of friction in that transition, so it would seem = the evidence supports the go a little more slowly approach. But, = sysinstall is kinda a special case, so I don't think either side can = draw much useful inference from that debate. > The balls are already rolling towards getting SVN mirrors in place, = and > anyone who still needs CVS years from now can install it from ports. True. And delaying a bit until things are more jelled won't hurt = anything either. If all goes according to plan, this will be in a few = months. If it doesn't, then we have a fallback... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 18:24:25 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B147106564A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:24:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B6F8FC08 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so4352184obb.13 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=jshI2fBLTnO1vYFYtt7vHATJHLiBoD7Feld/4PegBNo=; b=TrbsTRTUyqWzknmE7zPu5vyt0Xxa7lAYaco5yexZEUMGi54gqsz53PhuTeL1DnIm4B 9B8k7SXm2wOxDR2Q7ahwLH1tO9wqSrcCLrdvZrhqU/GxbrACWnsfplSlwomDTwFtq8HO Ajckgi5I/mNmnTONPriePWz93SrVFfGjNpwm/FE+ot5JqoA0nw6H+gvBtdNIZ+1RjXiJ HDmqzBY3e1TtxafEld7nM1YWqkdYTyVa2anZlM/fEa2T0om4eFdcjrRmavUakAjFMcz+ 6+mUQOQJv3USZ47MmErjQaNl1EbaublI5qvhXsY/8dyTk9ceJUYyJrSOz5uWac1T4ShE X77Q== Received: by 10.60.6.6 with SMTP id w6mr15718227oew.129.1347301464244; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (adsl-71-158-226-235.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net. [71.158.226.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a20sm10958028oei.2.2012.09.10.11.24.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <20120910183638.2adcb9f3@X220.ovitrap.com> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:24:16 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> <20120910075903.10ec8351@X220.ovitrap.com> <20120910101711.GA2511@server.rulingia.com> <20120910183638.2adcb9f3@X220.ovitrap.com> To: Erich Dollansky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkxyvgxnKyYyZg+Wec3zaU2YG3xNOIh4YBMSRs7tiNxL9ocX1r4B3LlOOtW/69OvepQHikd Cc: arch@freebsd.org, "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Doug Barton , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:24:25 -0000 BTW, it is dangling issues like these that cause me to suggestion = caution and wait until everything is in place to actually pull the = trigger on the removal. I had thought to argue we should keep it in 10, = and kill in 11, but that's a secondary concern since today isn't the = right time due to these issues. Once they are addressed, I wouldn't = object to cvs going away, but would suggest against it. Warner On Sep 10, 2012, at 6:36 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:11 +1000 > Peter Jeremy wrote: >=20 >> On 2012-Sep-10 07:03:31 +0700, Erich Dollansky >> wrote: >>> you ignore here the problem the typical user will face when >>> upgrading. >>=20 >> Please explain this. A "typical user" doesn't use CVS so they will >> never notice its absence. The rare user that uses CVS (and these can >> be expected to become rarer over time as people migrate to other = VCSs) >> can install it from ports. >>=20 > I would call a typical user a person who reads this: >=20 > = http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/updating-upgradi= ng.html >=20 > and acts accordingly. >=20 >>> Removing a basic component should work the other way around. >>=20 >> Why do you consider CVS a "basic component" of FreeBSD? CVS was in >> the base system to support FreeBSD development but FreeBSD has moved >> on so there's no longer any technical reason to keep CVS in the base >> system. It's also GPL and FreeBSD has a long-term goal of removing >> all GPL code from the base system. >>=20 > The handbook is not a technical reason. Yes. The user base who just > follows the handbook is also no technical reason. >=20 > Ignoring them is also no technical reason. >=20 >>> It should >>> stay in the base system as long as there are servers out there >>> supporting it. >>=20 >> What do you mean by "servers ... supporting" CVS? If you're talking >> about FreeBSD, 9.0-RELEASE is the last release that will be available >> via CVS. Why should the FreeBSD 10 base system include support for a >> VCS that doesn't support it? If you're talking non-FreeBSD uses then >> there will be support for CVS servers via the ports system. >>=20 >> On 2012-Sep-10 07:59:03 +0700, Erich Dollansky >> wrote: >>> The moment you take out the knob off you also take out all CVS >>> mirros. >>=20 >> I don't follow this statement. No-one is stopping anyone else using >> CVS. >>=20 >=20 > I know this when considering just this thread. There is a second one > saying that the support using CVS for the ports will be stopped. >=20 > Again, when a user followed strictly the the handbook, the user did = not > even hear yet from subversion. >=20 > Erich > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 18:24:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEE4106566C for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:24:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6595D14FAE1; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:24:33 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504E3060.6000702@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:24:32 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <86oblehusr.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86oblehusr.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:24:39 -0000 On 9/10/2012 6:27 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Doug Barton writes: >> And Eitan brought up a good point regarding the fact that we have no one >> maintaining the code at this time, which means that "FreeBSD CVS" is a >> bastardized version that is totally un-interoperable with anything else >> calling itself "CVS." (Actually I think this fact should be more clear >> in the new port, FWIW.) > > That is incorrect. Our CVS interoperates just fine with stock CVS, but > it has a few features which stock CVS lacks. For instance, it handles > read-only repositories correctly, and can be configured to format dates > according to ISO 8601. Ok, thanks for clarifying that. -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 18:25:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760B2106566C for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:25:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5576914E8B2; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:25:46 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504E30A9.6030905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:25:45 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:25:46 -0000 On 9/10/2012 8:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > If all goes according to plan, this will be in a few months. If it doesn't, then we have a fallback... We already have a fallback, install it from the port. Can you please address why you believe that solution is not adequate? -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 18:49:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4481B1065670 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:49:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A425F8FC0A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:49:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so4404877obb.13 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=1CkwLL/CEl+zcdLcSMPqD8cqGz/0uEH7e4PkZg55Jas=; b=UqFHSgghJn5bfxgKZRj4KJDUhWdX3iS+9HSNeNPEbxvWqkVhqDp5YIQyVwWKoiB8w+ Meb2Tk79J1B2n0i3o6C88WlXGTU+0pTTeW18UT5ortPiIn0eXxvcuzhNB4pA1LKanPYu rbZbqp/rGfOcSBOjoyW/Y2dYvrcOO0gP531MtYPbHivGzlpXiw9dakXOxFGcEdi9FzW9 Bfa+KDGCGC+Fmo6hbcQRq4jrjcsD6j2mZW9A41vVJgKrj/9T34HJSCXZEQQVQ8LweAiK ODl0/baxI4Ru1Tdyei3PT1yIv1XAV3lb4q6V5ZcwyLSDArhYuvN2+rnSNLeCNccvmorX auFg== Received: by 10.60.29.72 with SMTP id i8mr11186118oeh.26.1347302958921; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (adsl-71-158-226-235.dsl.ksc2mo.sbcglobal.net. [71.158.226.235]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i2sm13946324obn.19.2012.09.10.11.49.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <504E30A9.6030905@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:49:15 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <66F37598-323F-48E4-B013-093E6893D05F@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> <504E30A9.6030905@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnfdUILtljFlsio2923oh4nS9TNa+VQrEd5JR4J0pbpuohUJJESgi6OUPmXyn3xl6tEohw+ Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:49:20 -0000 On Sep 10, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/10/2012 8:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> If all goes according to plan, this will be in a few months. If it = doesn't, then we have a fallback... >=20 > We already have a fallback, install it from the port. Can you please > address why you believe that solution is not adequate? Because the documentation that we have doesn't say install the port. It = still says use CVS. Once that's updated and translated, that will be = one of the last (last?) thing we need to have things fully cut over and = have cvs really be unused and can then proceed to remove it. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 19:01:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A532F106566B for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:01:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BBE15051C; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:01:42 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504E3915.6010004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:01:41 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> <504E30A9.6030905@FreeBSD.org> <66F37598-323F-48E4-B013-093E6893D05F@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <66F37598-323F-48E4-B013-093E6893D05F@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:01:42 -0000 On 9/10/2012 11:49 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sep 10, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > >> On 9/10/2012 8:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >>> If all goes according to plan, this will be in a few months. If it doesn't, then we have a fallback... >> >> We already have a fallback, install it from the port. Can you please >> address why you believe that solution is not adequate? > > Because the documentation that we have doesn't say install the port. It still says use CVS. Once that's updated and translated, that will be one of the last (last?) thing we need to have things fully cut over and have cvs really be unused and can then proceed to remove it. We're still ripping out places in the docs where we refer to CVS for src related stuff, never mind docs and ports. http://svn.freebsd.org/changeset/base/240316 Should we go back to using CVS as the repo until that work is finished? And as someone else pointed out the average user doesn't use CVS directly anyway. They use c[v]sup to check out the source, which doesn't use anything from the in-base CVS. That said, I agree that it's unfortunate that our documentation is so far behind the curve here, and wish that people would take me more seriously when I talk about needing a project plan for these kinds of major infrastructure changes. But just like the mirror creation process, the documentation changes are already underway. The sooner we remove CVS from the base the sooner we can find other areas that need to be fixed up, in anticipation of having it polished for 10.0-RELEASE. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 19:11:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651F3106566C for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:11:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183B814EBAF; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:11:21 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:11:20 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lev Serebryakov References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> In-Reply-To: <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:11:21 -0000 On 9/10/2012 2:07 AM, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > It is another question: if ports isn't exported to CVS from > Ferb 2013, how to use csup with them after this date? You don't. If you have local changes in your ports tree, switch to subversion now. If you don't, portsnap is an Ok choice, but subversion is faster. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 20:39:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778341065673 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:39:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gad@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp8.server.rpi.edu (smtp8.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.228]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332858FC20 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:39:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from gilead.netel.rpi.edu (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.124.121]) by smtp8.server.rpi.edu (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8AKd2eD013264; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:39:04 -0400 Message-ID: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:39:02 -0400 From: Garance A Drosehn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eitan Adler References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bayes-Prob: 0.6056 (Score 0) X-RPI-SA-Score: 1.50 (*) [Hold at 11.00] COMBINED_FROM,RATWARE_GECKO_BUILD X-CanItPRO-Stream: outgoing X-Canit-Stats-ID: 52446486 - e1f7ad7b53c9 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.228 Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:39:07 -0000 On 9/8/12 6:09 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > CVS is obsolete. Virtually everyone that uses a version control system > chooses git, mercurial, subversion, etc. FreeBSD has finally migrated > from CVS for all of the repositories [2]. The ports management team > has announced the end of CVS support in six months time (the end of > February 2013). The documentation project does not export subversion > to CVS. The source repository will eventually cease support of CVS as > well. > > As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > CVS from HEAD [0]. > > There is already a port devel/cvs which uses a virtually identical > copy of the CVS sources in HEAD as of today. > > [0] http://people.freebsd.org/~eadler/files/svn-remove-cvs-from-base.diff > [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-ports@freebsd.org/msg44029.html > [2] projcvs does not count > I agree that removing gnu-licensed code from the base system is a good idea. I do still use CVS for a number of projects, and I also do think there is an advantage for FreeBSD being slow and deliberate when it comes to removing components from the base system. My own vote is that CVS remains part of the base system (in one form or another) for release-10. I think that removing CVS is a significant enough change that we'll have to make a big deal about removing it, and I'd rather advertise Release-10 for what it does do, instead of what it removes. However, I think we should do something with Release-10 so that we can painlessly remove CVS for Release-11. I don't know how flexible the new bsdinstaller is, but can we have it so the *port* of CVS is in the default install images? Something so people see that it is no longer part of the base system, but will see it right there in front of them at install time if they need it. Baring that, perhaps leave CVS in the base system for release-10, but rename it to gcvs. Again, this gives an easy solution to anyone who is suprised that the standard CVS is leaving the base system, but also puts them on pretty explicit notice that CVS will completely disappear in Release-11. These are just a few ideas I had which I didn't see mentioned in this thread. I have no problem with CVS becoming ports-only, but I do like making a gradual transition for changes like this. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 20:44:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D7E1065674; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:44:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) Received: from onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru (onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru [46.4.40.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1126E8FC19; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:44:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lion.home.serebryakov.spb.ru (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:923f:1:31e6:f1e:dd72:edd6]) (Authenticated sender: lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) by onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 31AAC4AC2D; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:44:20 +0400 (MSK) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:44:17 +0400 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:44:28 -0000 Hello, Doug. You wrote 10 =F1=E5=ED=F2=FF=E1=F0=FF 2012 =E3., 23:11:20: DB> If you have local changes in your ports tree, switch to subversion now. DB> If you don't, portsnap is an Ok choice, but subversion is faster. subversion takes twice as much space. Name me old-fashioned, but I don't like it (and for my ports I, of course, have separate sparse work copy and it is Ok). portsnap... Is it simple (installation of one port) to install local portsnap mirror to have same ports collection on all servers in network? --=20 // Black Lion AKA Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 21:03:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FCB106564A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:03:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vps.rulingia.com (host-122-100-2-194.octopus.com.au [122.100.2.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508568FC08 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:03:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.rulingia.com (c220-239-249-137.belrs5.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.249.137]) by vps.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8AL2naA041618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:02:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8AL2Vie052033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:02:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8AL2GWL052031; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:02:16 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:02:16 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: Erich Dollansky Message-ID: <20120910210216.GA50918@server.rulingia.com> References: <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120910070331.3fe2900c@X220.ovitrap.com> <504D3002.5040308@dougbarton.us> <20120910075903.10ec8351@X220.ovitrap.com> <20120910101711.GA2511@server.rulingia.com> <20120910183638.2adcb9f3@X220.ovitrap.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="envbJBWh7q8WU6mo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120910183638.2adcb9f3@X220.ovitrap.com> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , Eitan Adler , Doug Barton , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:03:04 -0000 --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2012-Sep-10 18:36:38 +0700, Erich Dollansky wrote: >I would call a typical user a person who reads this: > >http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/updating-upgradi= ng.html OK. That is a valid concern but does not directly affect the presence or absence of CVS in base. Yes, the handbook does need to be updated to discuss SVN but having CVS is base is not going to help someone who is trying to update to 9.1-RELEASE or 10.0-RELEASE by following the anonymous CVS instructions in the handbook - the tags do not exist. In this respect, removing CVS could be seen as preferable because the process will fail quicker so the person wastes less effort. I have just done a quick check across doc, ports and src and found the following hits for /cvs/i: lines files 18076 1921 doc 6649 1818 ports 21390 790 src 46115 4529 total Based on a quick scan, the majority of these can be ignored but a non-trivial number are currently out of date and need updating. Unfortunately, someone=E2=84=A2 needs to manually work through all the hits and work out updates where appropriate. >The handbook is not a technical reason. Yes. The user base who just >follows the handbook is also no technical reason. The handbook is in error for 9.1-RELEASE and later. Having CVS in base is not going to help users here. >I know this when considering just this thread. There is a second one >saying that the support using CVS for the ports will be stopped. That thread states that you will not be able to update the ports tree using CVS. The CVS port within the ports tree will remain. >Again, when a user followed strictly the the handbook, the user did not >even hear yet from subversion. I don't see anything in your postings that directly justify the retention of CVS in base. Rather, you appear to be suggesting that the FreeBSD Project has too quickly deprecated using CVS to update FreeBSD because the documentation and infrastrucure to support SVN are inadequate. I agree that the announcements were made with very little (if any) prior discussion and the documentation needs updating but that is not what this thread is discussing. If you believe that re@ or portmgr@ have prematurely stopped supporting CVS, please start a separate thread to discuss that. Should a decision be made to extend the use of CVS to update FreeBSD then that will obviously affect any decision to remove CVS from base. --=20 Peter Jeremy --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBOVVgACgkQ/opHv/APuIcXpwCgrRSnNxG/mrjoKPIgiicQ/w0P sX4An27CSpgxKgLieLPhN/9JFVQNqq7I =jljU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --envbJBWh7q8WU6mo-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 21:04:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9001065692; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:04:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B928FC0A; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:04:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6ED632F; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:04:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A2AC98A69; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:04:58 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Lev Serebryakov References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:04:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> (Lev Serebryakov's message of "Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:44:17 +0400") Message-ID: <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:04:59 -0000 Lev Serebryakov writes: > portsnap... Is it simple (installation of one port) to install local > portsnap mirror to have same ports collection on all servers in > network? There is no port for the server, but there is a script you can use to set up a local mirror of the official servers: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/projects/portsnap/ (ironically - given the context of this discussion - it's in projcvs, which is the last remaining repo that hasn't yet been converted to svn - mostly because almost nobody uses it.) However, you'd be far better served switching to pkgng and either mirroring the official package repo or setting up your own using poudriere. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 21:42:19 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7FC106564A; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:42:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) Received: from onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru (onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru [46.4.40.135]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052BE8FC0C; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:42:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lion.home.serebryakov.spb.ru (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:923f:1:31e6:f1e:dd72:edd6]) (Authenticated sender: lev@serebryakov.spb.ru) by onlyone.friendlyhosting.spb.ru (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7606A4AC2D; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 01:42:17 +0400 (MSK) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 01:42:14 +0400 From: Lev Serebryakov X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <858143195.20120911014214@serebryakov.spb.ru> To: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= In-Reply-To: <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:42:19 -0000 Hello, Dag-Erling. You wrote 11 =D1=81=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=82=D1=8F=D0=B1=D1=80=D1=8F 2012 =D0=B3.,= 1:04:58: DES> However, you'd be far better served switching to pkgng and either DES> mirroring the official package repo or setting up your own using DES> poudriere. I prefer to see FreeBSD as source-based OS ("distributive"). As far as I understand, pkgng is binary packages management tool. As for build box, it is good on really large installations, but on my systems there is more differences in configurfations, than similarities :) And building i386 packages on amd64 system is not well supported, as far as I understand. --=20 // Black Lion AKA Lev Serebryakov From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 21:53:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7D91065672; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from onyx.glenbarber.us (onyx.glenbarber.us [IPv6:2607:fc50:1000:c200::face]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9468FC0C; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from glenbarber.us (75-146-225-65-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [75.146.225.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: gjb) by onyx.glenbarber.us (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24C8523F6D9; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:53:36 -0400 From: Glen Barber To: Lev Serebryakov Message-ID: <20120910215336.GD1288@glenbarber.us> References: <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <858143195.20120911014214@serebryakov.spb.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3Pql8miugIZX0722" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <858143195.20120911014214@serebryakov.spb.ru> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 10.0-CURRENT amd64 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , Doug Barton , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:53:41 -0000 --3Pql8miugIZX0722 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 01:42:14AM +0400, Lev Serebryakov wrote: > And building i386 packages on amd64 system is not > well supported, as far as I understand. Works just fine for me. Glen --3Pql8miugIZX0722 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJQTmFgAAoJEFJPDDeguUajnEQIAIJ4eQSU+AHLji9pFo32FNaB kTe4OwCOrQG0e8WzTkHeYQ0Ud9mVgGe8YFHofD5V05DDltwg1jQF2nR0daJrc3w9 1qstuCnr/waNq9xvf/7jfCNtrmYzR9KwZMjXbwmL77uWu2KM3s++7iSVsnWpaxLW t0CxeIWZMD8aoJr2K5NB8EPCIlMca2gYGV8mydXLzAgCznBE4nEJbwRGNXFAAf9b d2I4FsFPrpUm8Z+fXeaySVyy/YjTR7ziDqAhwqX/wKOp4ko5LY4IuvE+4dTWoS3V grfwOoGVJSF+pOul1dIHByinMEvvK/I7Kl7d/v2z3s4z/0l6PdEDduWa2dKPoPk= =mPYO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3Pql8miugIZX0722-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 22:05:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244A2106566C; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:05:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18FF14DF68; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:05:47 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504E643B.6050305@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:05:47 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Glen Barber References: <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <858143195.20120911014214@serebryakov.spb.ru> <20120910215336.GD1288@glenbarber.us> In-Reply-To: <20120910215336.GD1288@glenbarber.us> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_?=, Lev Serebryakov , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:05:48 -0000 On 9/10/2012 2:53 PM, Glen Barber wrote: > On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 01:42:14AM +0400, Lev Serebryakov wrote: >> And building i386 packages on amd64 system is not >> well supported, as far as I understand. > > Works just fine for me. Me too (in an i386 jail of course). Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 10 22:49:39 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB0F1065673 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:49:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohauer@gmx.de) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.22]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 213C68FC0A for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:49:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Sep 2012 22:49:37 -0000 Received: from p578be941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.0.100]) [87.139.233.65] by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 11 Sep 2012 00:49:37 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1956535 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+cjGh9FAWcfENnPWvFunV/LCglQoxQ8xFr2eP+Om Sw8gY+kQeIR7mn Message-ID: <504E6E7F.3020007@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:49:35 +0200 From: olli hauer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= , Doug Barton , Lev Serebryakov Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:49:39 -0000 On 2012-09-10 23:04, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Lev Serebryakov writes: >> portsnap... Is it simple (installation of one port) to install local >> portsnap mirror to have same ports collection on all servers in >> network? > > There is no port for the server, but there is a script you can use to > set up a local mirror of the official servers: > It's far more easy. Use one machine as master, only on this machine you will use the command portsnap fetch. Rsync (or whatever preferred) the directory /var/db/portsnap to all machines where you want to have the portstree available, on this slaves use only the commands portsnap extract/update. Doing this now on a couple of machines over a view years without any issues. But since I'm using more and more pkg together with a central build machine the portstree is on most of my machines useless. I don't know what Dough means with portsnap is slower, on machines with not so many cpu power portsnap was for me always faster then svn update against a local svn ports mirror. Maybe he means updates are not at the same time available a port was committed? -- Regards, olli From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 00:27:57 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE52106566C for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:27:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926F08FC16 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:27:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FBFFEA.dip.t-dialin.net [217.251.255.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8B0Rru7078090 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:27:54 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8B0RgEp086306 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 02:27:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8B0RaEC024399 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 02:27:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209110027.q8B0RaEC024399@fire.js.berklix.net> To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:17:11 +1000." <20120910101711.GA2511@server.rulingia.com> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 02:27:36 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:27:57 -0000 Peter Jeremy wrote Erich Dollansky > > >Removing a basic component should work the other way around. > > Why do you consider CVS a "basic component" of FreeBSD? CVS was in > the base system to support FreeBSD development freebsd.org developers probably maily consider servers running on older FreeBSD code targeting current FreeBSD code, ... But ... CVS is also used for commercial product source repositories. CVS still delivers all safe releases of *BSD on which manufacturers may base product developments, businesses may like to keep servers up to date, but many prefer to base product development on considerably older releases, + some CVS repositories served by FreeBSD servers won't contain BSD code. CVS is a common tool to allow cross reference of trees between BSDs eg http://www.netbsd.org/docs/current/#using-anoncvs Some CVS repositories hosted on FreeBSD systems may not even hold program code, could be other texts. > but FreeBSD has moved > on so there's no longer any technical reason to keep CVS in the base > system. When/if it's agreed to remove CVS from src/ to ports/ , do it Not in un-managed haste. Not gratuitously annoying users by removing CVS from src/ without due warning. FreeBSD is a mature Unix with lineage & full out of the box functionality is expected; our reputation requires we give proper warning, not just a month of discussion inside some sand pit of geeks' mail lists that many businesses & users dont have time to track. We have man src.conf WITHOUT_CVS Set to not build CVS. So if change is wanted, manage it in an orderly fashion via release notes, eg sometime add: "Next release, FreeBSD will change default to WITHOUT_CVS=NO; Next release after that, FreeBSD will remove CVS from src/, & if you still need CVS, install from one of /usr/ports/devel/*cvs*" Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 05:35:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC84106566B for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:35:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from opti.dougb.net (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B215514DF3D; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:35:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <504ECD86.2040002@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:35:02 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Julian H. Stacey" References: <201209110027.q8B0RaEC024399@fire.js.berklix.net> In-Reply-To: <201209110027.q8B0RaEC024399@fire.js.berklix.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 OpenPGP: id=1A1ABC84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:35:04 -0000 On 09/10/2012 17:27, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > When/if it's agreed to remove CVS from src/ to ports/ , do it > Not in un-managed haste. Not gratuitously annoying users by > removing CVS from src/ without due warning. Do you consider years from now "due warning?" Because that's how long it is going to be before any measurable quantity of users is on 10.x. Between now and then, every one of them who is paying any attention at all will have moved from CVS to SVN. This whole argument of "zomg, users can't handle things moving to ports" is so 20th century. Doug -- I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do. -- Edward Everett Hale, (1822 - 1909) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 07:29:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355FA106564A; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:29:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E522B8FC14; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:29:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB54D6461; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:29:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 784068AEA; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:29:08 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: olli hauer References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <504BD9B5.20001@shatow.net> <504BE020.1070300@FreeBSD.org> <504BE12A.50907@shatow.net> <9A528A3C-40F1-4599-ACAB-EF306033A4F2@bsdimp.com> <86pq5vtj42.fsf@ds4.des.no> <695302366.20120910130736@serebryakov.spb.ru> <504E3B58.5080404@FreeBSD.org> <9710350203.20120911004417@serebryakov.spb.ru> <86vcflsi6d.fsf@ds4.des.no> <504E6E7F.3020007@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:29:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <504E6E7F.3020007@gmx.de> (olli hauer's message of "Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:49:35 +0200") Message-ID: <868vch81bw.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton , Lev Serebryakov Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:29:10 -0000 olli hauer writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > There is no port for the server, but there is a script you can use > > to set up a local mirror of the official servers: > It's far more easy. > Use one machine as master, only on this machine you will use the command > portsnap fetch. Rsync (or whatever preferred) the directory /var/db/ports= nap > to all machines where you want to have the portstree available, on this > slaves use only the commands portsnap extract/update. Doing this now on a > couple of machines over a view years without any issues. I don't see how that is easier than having a local mirror. It adds an extra step (rsync) which, unlike the simple HTTP requests portsnap uses, requires authentication. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 12:05:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E6F106564A; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:05:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [217.69.76.211]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B1A8FC16; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:05:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A0EF6A6008; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8BC5qLo068836; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:05:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8BC5qLU067885; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:05:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:05:51 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: Doug Barton Message-ID: <20120911120551.GG20762@e-new.0x20.net> References: <201209110027.q8B0RaEC024399@fire.js.berklix.net> <504ECD86.2040002@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Of+MxKS8Z9r+0fcN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <504ECD86.2040002@FreeBSD.org> X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.3 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:05:53 -0000 --Of+MxKS8Z9r+0fcN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:35:02PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On 09/10/2012 17:27, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > When/if it's agreed to remove CVS from src/ to ports/ , do it > > Not in un-managed haste. Not gratuitously annoying users by > > removing CVS from src/ without due warning. >=20 > Do you consider years from now "due warning?" Because that's how long it > is going to be before any measurable quantity of users is on 10.x. > Between now and then, every one of them who is paying any attention at > all will have moved from CVS to SVN. >=20 > This whole argument of "zomg, users can't handle things moving to ports" > is so 20th century. +1 --Of+MxKS8Z9r+0fcN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBPKR8ACgkQKc512sD3afjRtACggSmMJy6RA0f4wgAy7KSTtB1C pIQAoKd92zL1y4qKTG6fBvXmoVUXpQyz =iRRF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Of+MxKS8Z9r+0fcN-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 13:30:43 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1C0106564A; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:30:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from duck.symmetricom.us (duck.symmetricom.us [206.168.13.214]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C0F8FC16; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:30:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org (daffy.symmetricom.us [206.168.13.218]) by duck.symmetricom.us (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8BDUZej003148; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:30:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8BDUW8I049412; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:30:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: Doug Barton In-Reply-To: <504ECD86.2040002@FreeBSD.org> References: <201209110027.q8B0RaEC024399@fire.js.berklix.net> <504ECD86.2040002@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:30:32 -0600 Message-ID: <1347370232.1137.49.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:30:43 -0000 On Mon, 2012-09-10 at 22:35 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On 09/10/2012 17:27, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > When/if it's agreed to remove CVS from src/ to ports/ , do it > > Not in un-managed haste. Not gratuitously annoying users by > > removing CVS from src/ without due warning. > > Do you consider years from now "due warning?" Because that's how long it > is going to be before any measurable quantity of users is on 10.x. > Between now and then, every one of them who is paying any attention at > all will have moved from CVS to SVN. > > This whole argument of "zomg, users can't handle things moving to ports" > is so 20th century. > I think I'd feel better about the trend of moving things from the base to ports if cross-building ports for non-x86 platforms worked. I have no specific need for CVS in base and I think there's plenty of lead time if the process starts now for people to adjust before the 10.0 release, so don't count the above general statement as a vote against removing CVS. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 14:39:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0211106566B for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:39:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-yw0-f44.google.com (mail-yw0-f44.google.com [209.85.213.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787588FC0A for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:39:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yhq56 with SMTP id 56so90310yhq.17 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:39:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=2CyXyXqEX6C1vVtcHBJ3sCKsmZlyhqzUWHTJ5SKHI7M=; b=AQd/zfWjBxr1VjWFQdsaI6IGLrdHyX5OovPGEetDSozctGjVJ/Jco/Hy9v5WI0uQWr gk8W0synXLwroiFPseAL6h610zLWuKqWnjxpeIXaEblkXaZTe4qunOJFV8/PBoYh0xR+ hFjkhjzeCwOJTR/O9cmYI3Na0UhZxK6qCD24m2Xb2Z6z3qV6g077XyZAHJjifqsbnjcd sSmuhgXcPpivSSWlxYjEK+yZz7FWopY6Wy0PVPq1+jLU7+S3ExfUyveH4rokIK2wstLa lp+hV2t92njXiviBL+2p0qcRvqiFyq6N19kRCG9ERZvG0/H/eVd2wImA45O++Hp3S6W9 2WSQ== Received: by 10.236.200.167 with SMTP id z27mr15887349yhn.131.1347374353441; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x4sm30285263yhh.2.2012.09.11.07.39.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 11 Sep 2012 07:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <504E3915.6010004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:38:34 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6497E1D9-6029-4712-8B84-BA2677D39473@bsdimp.com> References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> <504E30A9.6030905@FreeBSD.org> <66F37598-323F-48E4-B013-093E6893D05F@bsdimp.com> <504E3915.6010004@FreeBSD.org> To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnHA4LphjhcaavSBFtnOS4/QWqNww8pOc6QFGvzbhZpT5wYkJPS5r0m5n2QbPPSX2vwfHuX Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:39:20 -0000 On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:01 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 9/10/2012 11:49 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >>=20 >> On Sep 10, 2012, at 1:25 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >>=20 >>> On 9/10/2012 8:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >>>> If all goes according to plan, this will be in a few months. If it = doesn't, then we have a fallback... >>>=20 >>> We already have a fallback, install it from the port. Can you please >>> address why you believe that solution is not adequate? >>=20 >> Because the documentation that we have doesn't say install the port. = It still says use CVS. Once that's updated and translated, that will be = one of the last (last?) thing we need to have things fully cut over and = have cvs really be unused and can then proceed to remove it. >=20 > We're still ripping out places in the docs where we refer to CVS for = src > related stuff, never mind docs and ports. > http://svn.freebsd.org/changeset/base/240316 Should we go back to = using > CVS as the repo until that work is finished? No, we should finish that work as well. The number of people affected = is smaller. And that work should also have been done before the trigger = was pulled. The trigger hasn't been pulled yet on this change. > And as someone else pointed out the average user doesn't use CVS > directly anyway. They use c[v]sup to check out the source, which = doesn't > use anything from the in-base CVS. You'd be surprised how many people use cvsup to get the CVS tree and = then checkout from there. More folks than use the docs tree, I'd wager. > That said, I agree that it's unfortunate that our documentation is so > far behind the curve here, and wish that people would take me more > seriously when I talk about needing a project plan for these kinds of > major infrastructure changes. But just like the mirror creation = process, > the documentation changes are already underway. The sooner we remove = CVS > from the base the sooner we can find other areas that need to be fixed > up, in anticipation of having it polished for 10.0-RELEASE. We should get as much as we can done before pulling the plug, and then = mop up as much as possible from there. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 15:01:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A00106564A for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:01:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4798FC14 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:01:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [IPv6:2001:aa8:fffb:1::3]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D1476A6001; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:01:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from e-new.0x20.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8BF1PfQ023525; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:01:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars@e-new.0x20.net) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e-new.0x20.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8BF1Prg023032; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:01:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:01:25 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: arch@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> References: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VYvi4N5CyHZx5xNE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 7.3 X-Operation-System: FreeBSD 8.3-RELEASE-p2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:01:28 -0000 --VYvi4N5CyHZx5xNE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 04:39:02PM -0400, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > On 9/8/12 6:09 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > CVS is obsolete. Virtually everyone that uses a version control system > > chooses git, mercurial, subversion, etc. FreeBSD has finally migrated > > from CVS for all of the repositories [2]. The ports management team > > has announced the end of CVS support in six months time (the end of > > February 2013). The documentation project does not export subversion > > to CVS. The source repository will eventually cease support of CVS as > > well. > > > > As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > > CVS from HEAD [0]. > > > > There is already a port devel/cvs which uses a virtually identical > > copy of the CVS sources in HEAD as of today. > > > > [0] http://people.freebsd.org/~eadler/files/svn-remove-cvs-from-base.di= ff > > [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-ports@freebsd.org/msg44029.html > > [2] projcvs does not count > > =20 > I agree that removing gnu-licensed code from the base system is a > good idea. >=20 > I do still use CVS for a number of projects, and I also do think there > is an advantage for FreeBSD being slow and deliberate when it comes to > removing components from the base system. My own vote is that CVS > remains part of the base system (in one form or another) for release-10. > I think that removing CVS is a significant enough change that we'll > have to make a big deal about removing it, and I'd rather advertise > Release-10 for what it does do, instead of what it removes. >=20 > However, I think we should do something with Release-10 so that we can > painlessly remove CVS for Release-11. I don't know how flexible the > new bsdinstaller is, but can we have it so the *port* of CVS is in the > default install images? Something so people see that it is no longer > part of the base system, but will see it right there in front of them > at install time if they need it. >=20 > Baring that, perhaps leave CVS in the base system for release-10, but > rename it to gcvs. Again, this gives an easy solution to anyone who > is suprised that the standard CVS is leaving the base system, but also > puts them on pretty explicit notice that CVS will completely disappear > in Release-11. >=20 > These are just a few ideas I had which I didn't see mentioned in this > thread. I have no problem with CVS becoming ports-only, but I do like > making a gradual transition for changes like this. Answering to a random mail of this thread. devel/cvs doesn't have any dependencies, its pre-compiled package has a size of 494 KBs, which even fits on a 1984 5,25" floppy disk twice. So you can "pkg install cvs" in a matter of seconds or minutes if you're using and old acoustic coupler. :) Where's the problem? We want to have a GPL-free 10.0 or at least we try to. There's still a lot of time left before 10.0 will be released, so you all have a lot of time to find out how to use "pkg" and sed(1) to substitute /usr/bin/cvs with $PREFIX/bin/cvs. --VYvi4N5CyHZx5xNE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBPUkUACgkQKc512sD3afjhTwCgscimnyd2xvljPDcjkOj3B/JB CSoAn2Doi2GJN0Gc8XRi7ucyq9gnkQle =cCUy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VYvi4N5CyHZx5xNE-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 15:32:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CF31065674 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:32:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ie0-f182.google.com (mail-ie0-f182.google.com [209.85.223.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C0B8FC15 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:32:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iebc12 with SMTP id c12so1417199ieb.13 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=SDfCLqsTvzd8v31DoTTWMAp8jQNjNXFq/XY/iJwo0hc=; b=aEUYydOliOTA+3n3vlZeGHomciNRer6HP6OYJmj64TMPMPFmSrirVBmKLnVhU+x2vV ig3wS/TyG2KXOUEsRR9ScetH8U0lkyaqAZk1fGMssC/bcZVe6m/cMzHpenkTKQDW3iX1 6+PzCqZHyT2egnf3wdNa32JCR2ssUERcyzJwGkPQEKFkRiUGk8mh/PqHsk6tDq6K9ez2 n/oVx6wUhyyA2epivsarj0/rDiRp+VGN9WDu0cEr/b4+ShzPZXVNAKiTyIsFA/eV/lUt 0oEt/bdlHxkT1oeQne+4iNF5gExypSyQlRiFKOyJAwtnsuE6jzJFQpfjdN0AhbGXNfjf 6iQw== Received: by 10.42.155.135 with SMTP id u7mr22064430icw.25.1347377549367; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.12.167] (rrcs-98-100-103-4.central.biz.rr.com. [98.100.103.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ce6sm2486332igb.1.2012.09.11.08.32.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:32:26 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0D39CBAA-06F1-403E-8235-74CF6AE208EB@bsdimp.com> References: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> To: Lars Engels X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk+0UVvysLcn3vGuoBl6z0xlzYkaE0BMrS5gH2stO7n0jo9+db/caRIk6tUJf37ALNcEAmA Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:32:30 -0000 On Sep 11, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Lars Engels wrote: >=20 > devel/cvs doesn't have any dependencies, its pre-compiled package has = a > size of 494 KBs, which even fits on a 1984 5,25" floppy disk twice. In 1984 floppies were only 360kB... Sure IBM introduced the 1.2MB = floppies that year, but it was late in the year when the machines = started showing up, and it was a few years before they were in wide = spread use. Nothing to do with the force of your argument, just a historical = footnote from someone who lived through the time and used the 1.2MB = floppies as a cheap replacement for the 400kb "quad" density disks I had = to use up until that point for the RX-50 drives in my DEC Rainbow, and I = could do that until I was actually in college. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 15:44:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B451065680; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:44:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF50C8FC08; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:44:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p5DCBD47C.dip.t-dialin.net [93.203.212.124]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8BFiNGN023105; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:44:24 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8BFi83p089646; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:44:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8BFi1AD064967; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:44:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209111544.q8BFi1AD064967@fire.js.berklix.net> To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Mon, 10 Sep 2012 22:35:02 PDT." <504ECD86.2040002@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:44:01 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: Doug Barton Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:44:32 -0000 On Mon, 2012-09-10 at 22:35 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On 09/10/2012 17:27, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > When/if it's agreed to remove CVS from src/ to ports/ , do it > > Not in un-managed haste. Not gratuitously annoying users by > > removing CVS from src/ without due warning. > > Do you consider years from now "due warning?" I never mentioned Years plural or a time scale, beyond If FreeBSD do it, let's allow time for eg : - Warn in one release notes, - Set WITHOUT_CVS=YES in next release & warn, - Will be deleted from next release. I never wrote (or thought) they had to be major release digits. I was thinking at least a minimal linear minor digit sequence might do, eg { 8.4, 8.5, 8.6 } or { 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 } though I noted since others are talking about major release numbers eg 10 etc, & as minor numbers rarely get high since eg 4.11, some accomodation with major numbers is needed. I'm not suggesting what, I'll continue to read what others suggest. > Because that's how long it > is going to be before any measurable quantity of users is on 10.x. > Between now and then, every one of them who is paying any attention at > all will have moved from CVS to SVN. > > This whole argument of "zomg, users can't handle things moving to ports" > is so 20th century. Let's manage warnings, It's not that users Can't handle ports, most Can, But: - Not all FreeBSD (or CVS) users, use FreeBSD (or CVS) just to build FreeBSD. FreeBSD people have long had CVS available out of the box for Their repositories too, not just for freebsd.org. - It's not business efficient for newcomers to FreeBSD to stay with an OS that wastes their time with superfluous variances from other Unixes, before they can restore/ achieve a usable common UX base. Not all users are FreeBSD dedicated, some are just passing through, & will pass on stay, according to how much of their time we consume with whatever makes us time consumingly different from other UXs they know. A newcomer will ask the same sceptical questions of FreeBSD as of other UX's: "How much time must I lose on this UX before I'll get back to a Unix environment with tools I'm used to from other Unixes ?" I installed 3 different Linux last week, it was a reminder, how I saw them, as to how others trying FreeBSD may equally see ours, & decide to pass on, or stay. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 15:55:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B9AA106564A; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:55:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from duck.symmetricom.us (duck.symmetricom.us [206.168.13.214]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8CE8FC0C; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:55:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from damnhippie.dyndns.org (daffy.symmetricom.us [206.168.13.218]) by duck.symmetricom.us (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8BFtIXu005118; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:55:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) Received: from [172.22.42.240] (revolution.hippie.lan [172.22.42.240]) by damnhippie.dyndns.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8BFtGWX049563; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:55:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@damnhippie.dyndns.org) From: Ian Lepore To: "Julian H. Stacey" In-Reply-To: <201209111544.q8BFi1AD064967@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <201209111544.q8BFi1AD064967@fire.js.berklix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:55:15 -0600 Message-ID: <1347378915.1137.61.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:55:32 -0000 On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 17:44 +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > A newcomer will ask the same sceptical questions of FreeBSD as of > other UX's: "How much time must I lose on this UX before I'll > get back to a Unix environment with tools I'm used to from other > Unixes ?" > > I installed 3 different Linux last week, it was a reminder, > how I saw them, as to how others trying FreeBSD may equally see ours, > & decide to pass on, or stay. Did each of those install cvs as part of the base system? If not, then what is the point you're trying to make? -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 11 17:23:07 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7922E1065670 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:23:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A078FC17 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:23:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so1494008obb.13 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=CX19b0fl0LyvEhpegcmT7Au4ncKDn0DOdGwk66V/h4w=; b=qtE9Byfz3xkZ9DaGLyFjRDs9HCeC0k/A5AiTRxkQOKPg+ptajs4eZiHor435Mv1tEf R3lU1p8/vc2Eo2jOKNdMKvbLOeDsWqCZUYw18AK9ZneoMZkRxN8EljCgZonlFp59Rm8r l6+WnLEMLcmss219CrbijD8eGrKxzznWO1qFj8B3vPwlRwBgnfbKedF2NaejQhtMQIkf wNN/KIwNqwkfzkWt9zxWskJJns99N1wq7NOnA+4O0XJp16512UDKA552dnwb05Yz3M4e UJGRt8QZNGBOz/xpsfbTtG+fMrCdtsCEX46xFa1YK5alT8Fsn4sb9SOxshfwZI4x83qO TcyA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.13.130 with SMTP id h2mr19089133oec.63.1347384186395; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.76.8.98 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:23:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> References: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:23:06 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2KsBUFoMOxtKC1PkJVFiozHmTc4 Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Lars Engels Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:23:07 -0000 Hi, I want to have a working system in 10.x. For me, that includes GPL software in the base if we can't easily cross build ports, as I want to be able to have users build appliances and embedded devices using what's in our base tree. Just saying. "GPL free" sounds zealot-y. We should be focusing on what works, not on GPL-free. Adrian From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 12 07:34:10 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82211065670 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:34:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6233157D3F; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:33:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <50503ACC.8030004@FreeBSD.org> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:33:32 -1000 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120827 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh References: <20120908234659.GA10489@server.rulingia.com> <42D7F0F3-46EC-484A-8665-626AD5D0404E@bsdimp.com> <504D2BE4.6030007@FreeBSD.org> <59550073-A4DE-4152-B406-DFC47AF991DC@bsdimp.com> <504D6EE8.5010604@FreeBSD.org> <7470815C-E215-4A57-90AB-773C2B74E2DA@bsdimp.com> <504E30A9.6030905@FreeBSD.org> <66F37598-323F-48E4-B013-093E6893D05F@bsdimp.com> <504E3915.6010004@FreeBSD.org> <6497E1D9-6029-4712-8B84-BA2677D39473@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <6497E1D9-6029-4712-8B84-BA2677D39473@bsdimp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 07:34:10 -0000 On 09/11/2012 04:38 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> And as someone else pointed out the average user doesn't use CVS >> > directly anyway. They use c[v]sup to check out the source, which doesn't >> > use anything from the in-base CVS. > You'd be surprised how many people use cvsup to get the CVS tree and then checkout from there. More folks than use the docs tree, I'd wager. I didn't say "zero," I said "average." And for those users, it will still be available in the ports tree. Doug From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 12 08:29:49 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D6E106564A; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:29:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from giovanni.trematerra@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qa0-f47.google.com (mail-qa0-f47.google.com [209.85.216.47]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F408FC0A; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:29:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qadc11 with SMTP id c11so2321747qad.13 for ; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 01:29:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JODGrBpzeJB6NZofC2cbOqO0+4ZzBapIXG2niXEKLQ8=; b=JTMP2oeCg7EFuvtq5O7c35KpqU3YSejDp0e1lpA3OtNs9mQ2UFhnX8BOUe4G+FIvn4 TewiSr3NWRdvf9C0mWiuKSC3uhzhNEvhxJ+P1NaUVfqfp/FJPzWu51XYMLqaqVRAMdEX 9RoGRsPJhGqU4RprIPY72weISZf1yaAViDP9nVgo3JcMCFjpnsZleSMQ9ocnMn+iji+h ZE//CeIVNdqH40/e5irkN2SOWNBgp8nhQZ+27qIYLeU/b5ps1nmH+HBH9ABiaFW969Kw up9G+I5fm61e7x2XSDgrRq78jrfwpVgFE23kvggAowiXyr489wnj8sSJsT1l64CMCy9U RlSQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.137.147 with SMTP id w19mr5693407qct.58.1347438588447; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 01:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Sender: giovanni.trematerra@gmail.com Received: by 10.229.128.202 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 01:29:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:29:48 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 07UI6Jc8dDGyTqo7XQV5hFhp3G4 Message-ID: From: Giovanni Trematerra To: Adrian Chadd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Lars Engels , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 08:29:49 -0000 On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Hi, > > I want to have a working system in 10.x. For me, that includes GPL > software in the base if we can't easily cross build ports, as I want > to be able to have users build appliances and embedded devices using > what's in our base tree. > > Just saying. "GPL free" sounds zealot-y. We should be focusing on what > works, not on GPL-free. > Sorry for the stupid question, but what about importing this into base? http://www.opencvs.org/ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 12 10:34:17 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E521065673; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:34:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D128FC1A; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:34:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6921068BC; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:34:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1B56B8C2D; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:34:15 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Giovanni Trematerra References: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:34:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Giovanni Trematerra's message of "Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:29:48 +0200") Message-ID: <86ligfsf6g.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Adrian Chadd , Lars Engels , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:34:18 -0000 Giovanni Trematerra writes: > Sorry for the stupid question, but what about importing [opencvs] into > base? Absolutely out of the question. We don't need cvs. Replacing our current cvs with a different version would be even stupider than not removing it at all. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 12 11:01:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC47F1065673; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:01:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA578FC0A; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:01:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p5DCBD526.dip.t-dialin.net [93.203.213.38]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8CB1hQt061533; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:01:44 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8CB1W1x095159; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:01:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8CB1JuQ025424; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:01:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209121101.q8CB1JuQ025424@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Ian Lepore From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:55:15 MDT." <1347378915.1137.61.camel@revolution.hippie.lan> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:01:19 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Doug Barton Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:01:50 -0000 Ian Lepore wrote: > On Tue, 2012-09-11 at 17:44 +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > A newcomer will ask the same sceptical questions of FreeBSD as of > > other UX's: "How much time must I lose on this UX before I'll > > get back to a Unix environment with tools I'm used to from other > > Unixes ?" > > > > I installed 3 different Linux last week, it was a reminder, > > how I saw them, as to how others trying FreeBSD may equally see ours, > > & decide to pass on, or stay. > > > Did each of those install cvs as part of the base system? I didn't look, (I was looking re. our ABI & acroread). > If not, then what is the point you're trying to make? Specificly: Removing CVS from src/ will be easily recoverable for commited FreeBSD users, but will degrade FreeBSD for some visitors from other Unixes & ex BSD people tentatively returning. Generaly: At the stage one tries new Unixes, if too many things are missing &/or too much trouble to learn what & how & where changed, & how to restore; Rather than lose a lot of time on docs, mail lists etc, it's easy to decide: "Probably much else changed or missing too, I'll lose too much time to revert it to a working Unix environment. Try next OS." Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 12 11:13:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53C8106566B; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:13:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53858FC08; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:13:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0A268DE; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:13:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C30918C35; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:13:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: "Julian H. Stacey" References: <201209121101.q8CB1JuQ025424@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:13:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201209121101.q8CB1JuQ025424@fire.js.berklix.net> (Julian H. Stacey's message of "Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:01:19 +0200") Message-ID: <86har3sddc.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Ian Lepore , Doug Barton , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:13:22 -0000 "Julian H. Stacey" writes: > Removing CVS from src/ will be easily recoverable for commited FreeBSD > users, but will degrade FreeBSD for some visitors from other Unixes & > ex BSD people tentatively returning. Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box? > Rather than lose a lot of time on docs, mail lists etc, it's easy to > decide: "Probably much else changed or missing too, I'll lose too much > time to revert it to a working Unix environment. Try next OS." Yes, because I'm sure the absence of a program they haven't used in five years, if ever, and will probably never need is the largest hurdle to overcome for new or returning FreeBSD users. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 13 07:15:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D31106566B for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:15:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markiyan.kushnir@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBBB8FC0A for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:15:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wibhr14 with SMTP id hr14so2413712wib.13 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:15:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Bri1aUmgYKCITrg3ZPUtaQ4NvHjNkHnUrbtRSMlVxo0=; b=nxFVhGGZIoFg1yY1yzx1WpxyiM8IMbNNJqX2FCgf+BUNrzpuIzSMOoUrWi0u00xx0s hzdk1AxrGYEr11wcqOPLAtZ6ViAZgqv4AtKRHaxfQYvA88sA3S3J/XoZpjAzXDwWz1S6 07O7JrT5EOMnzQj2vUEnzK6JRvHtrfJ66r09FLM9CSVfSfUtqBgS5j48AqFZmPT0niqq +XNjq6AIxsDOQWb2r/XxcnoUUE4ofvTup2aRvsHre3taZAenonRAw3aJdECr/jo0WpXI qC2Q3b7S4t2zI1BC7YFjjG8Y2Pn96VzuLms/Oyr++ZUuynkfccppFUWIZ4NReAv9Csie nEyw== Received: by 10.216.137.76 with SMTP id x54mr594456wei.189.1347520549806; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mkushnir.zapto.org (152-2-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net. [178.95.2.152]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fb20sm18463231wid.1.2012.09.13.00.15.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:14:44 +0300 From: Markiyan Kushnir User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120222 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:15:52 -0000 On 09.09.2012 01:09, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi all, > > CVS is obsolete. Virtually everyone that uses a version control system > chooses git, mercurial, subversion, etc. FreeBSD has finally migrated > from CVS for all of the repositories [2]. The ports management team > has announced the end of CVS support in six months time (the end of > February 2013). The documentation project does not export subversion > to CVS. The source repository will eventually cease support of CVS as > well. > > As such I propose that we treat CVS as deprecated in 9.x and remove > CVS from HEAD [0]. > > There is already a port devel/cvs which uses a virtually identical > copy of the CVS sources in HEAD as of today. > > [0] http://people.freebsd.org/~eadler/files/svn-remove-cvs-from-base.diff > [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/freebsd-ports@freebsd.org/msg44029.html > [2] projcvs does not count > As a desktop user, I'm OK with the idea. However I have a concern on using csup after Feb 2013. In my "custom upgrade" scenario (I use it on my desktops, almost fully automated), I start with, roughly: % pkg_delete -adf % [some extra cleanup] % csup % [build and install the base system] % [build and install my batch of ports] After pkg_delete I have a clean base system "old" release, and at this point I'm able to update the base source tree before I proceed with the building of the new world/kernel. After Feb, 2013 I wouldn't be able to do it. As for updating the ports tree, I'm OK with the portsnap(8). Do you have suggestions how I could adjust my scenario to update /usr/src the new way? -- Markiyan. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 13 10:59:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4003D1065670 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:59:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015E78FC18 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:59:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1486C69; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:59:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0F6128D4B; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:59:04 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Markiyan Kushnir References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:59:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> (Markiyan Kushnir's message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:14:44 +0300") Message-ID: <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:59:06 -0000 Markiyan Kushnir writes: > As a desktop user, I'm OK with the idea. However I have a concern on > using csup after Feb 2013. In my "custom upgrade" scenario (I use it > on my desktops, almost fully automated), I start with, roughly: > > % pkg_delete -adf > % [some extra cleanup] > % csup > % [build and install the base system] > % [build and install my batch of ports] > > After pkg_delete I have a clean base system "old" release, and at this > point I'm able to update the base source tree before I proceed with > the building of the new world/kernel. After Feb, 2013 I wouldn't be > able to do it. [...] Do you have suggestions how I could adjust my > scenario to update /usr/src the new way? If I understand correctly, this is the procedure you use to upgrade from one release to another? I would recommend sticking with binary releases and using freebsd-update(8) to update and upgrade. If you really want a source tree, however, you can get one using svn. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 13 12:49:48 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0DE106564A for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:49:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8A68FC16 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:49:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p57BCF17F.dip.t-dialin.net [87.188.241.127]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8DCndRt080491 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:49:40 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8DCnRQ6002650 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:49:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8DCnKe6061075 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:49:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209131249.q8DCnKe6061075@fire.js.berklix.net> To: arch@freebsd.org From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:13:19 +0200." <86har3sddc.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:49:20 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 12:49:48 -0000 =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= wrote: > "Julian H. Stacey" writes: > > Removing CVS from src/ will be easily recoverable for commited FreeBSD > > users, but will degrade FreeBSD for some visitors from other Unixes & > > ex BSD people tentatively returning. > > Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box? > > > Rather than lose a lot of time on docs, mail lists etc, it's easy to > > decide: "Probably much else changed or missing too, I'll lose too much > > time to revert it to a working Unix environment. Try next OS." > > Yes, because I'm sure the absence of a program they haven't used in five > years, if ever, and will probably never need is the largest hurdle to > overcome for new or returning FreeBSD users. DES took partial misleading context & exagerated. Original was: > At the stage one tries new Unixes, if too many things are missing > &/or too much trouble to learn what & how & where changed, & how > to restore; Rather than lose a lot of time on docs, mail lists > etc, it's easy to decide: "Probably much else changed or missing > too, I'll lose too much time to revert it to a working Unix > environment. Try next OS." DES hyperbole discarded, CVS would be just one more issue just for some. Some might agressively pitch for a short timescale, but if CVS goes, FreeBSD will hopefuly look beyond just its developers' group, remember its users, & consider a schedule similar to one a OS software manager would. Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 13 13:12:04 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6011065676 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 13:12:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markiyan.kushnir@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE0A8FC1A for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 13:12:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkcje9 with SMTP id je9so525842bkc.13 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=osMWy/XRWXg6rfvmBsx6yKZUiJxXB0eqfFgCoJEHwGw=; b=sLf/IyyfpyvURqSozyoIT8/RmJE6PXhV+fWzimGLDGQNd11KtoivpbQeSiKDd7GJ8Y kPkUcdToFSTfbbLJkVWR+fIazxjcWUnA5b2L6ZgM/GxUS9EvpqFFusuSwA0sGVWc7e3b EknK6/jnOrkyoxwIkE2go2asEUZN/sQt0/xzWSGPNHhCJu89dCUdd/EaQr2DD1ZoiUiF oRfVBx8kd7sAbIYC8k6qEjordbQo/b8E7UGxFbuW8tWmKwYdXMeY7NfDf00ucVTWYNDU ez8w5xvtN8t6TAuIl9i1Hoap2ZKpuxNJMFD6+jWM2teUYcp9/2f8C+uo9s+duZYNOSeE jbeA== Received: by 10.204.128.68 with SMTP id j4mr989038bks.122.1347541922553; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mkushnir.zapto.org (152-2-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net. [178.95.2.152]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n5sm14326059bkv.14.2012.09.13.06.11.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 13 Sep 2012 06:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:11:00 +0300 From: Markiyan Kushnir User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120222 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 13:12:04 -0000 On 13.09.2012 13:59, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Markiyan Kushnir writes: >> As a desktop user, I'm OK with the idea. However I have a concern on >> using csup after Feb 2013. In my "custom upgrade" scenario (I use it >> on my desktops, almost fully automated), I start with, roughly: >> >> % pkg_delete -adf >> % [some extra cleanup] >> % csup >> % [build and install the base system] >> % [build and install my batch of ports] >> >> After pkg_delete I have a clean base system "old" release, and at this= >> point I'm able to update the base source tree before I proceed with >> the building of the new world/kernel. After Feb, 2013 I wouldn't be >> able to do it. [...] Do you have suggestions how I could adjust my >> scenario to update /usr/src the new way? > > If I understand correctly, this is the procedure you use to upgrade fro= m > one release to another? I would recommend sticking with binary release= s > and using freebsd-update(8) to update and upgrade. If you really want = a > source tree, however, you can get one using svn. > > DES For my desktop needs I would normally want binary releases. However I=20 like the freedom to upgrade to whatever I want, and the ability to tweak = my "upgrade" scenario with things like switching gcc/clang, or=20 customizing the kernel. I think I can replace csup with freebsd-update/portsnap pair for=20 upgrading the src and ports trees only, and still be able to build=20 everything from sources. -- Markiyan. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 13 14:59:24 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69652106564A for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:59:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522418FC08 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:59:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 546361A3D30; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:52:18 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-ID: <20120913145218.GE34563@elvis.mu.org> References: <86har3sddc.fsf@ds4.des.no> <201209131249.q8DCnKe6061075@fire.js.berklix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201209131249.q8DCnKe6061075@fire.js.berklix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:59:24 -0000 unsubscribe cvs@freebsd.org * Julian H. Stacey [120913 05:49] wrote: > =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= wrote: > > "Julian H. Stacey" writes: > > > Removing CVS from src/ will be easily recoverable for commited FreeBSD > > > users, but will degrade FreeBSD for some visitors from other Unixes & > > > ex BSD people tentatively returning. > > > > Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box? > > > > > Rather than lose a lot of time on docs, mail lists etc, it's easy to > > > decide: "Probably much else changed or missing too, I'll lose too much > > > time to revert it to a working Unix environment. Try next OS." > > > > Yes, because I'm sure the absence of a program they haven't used in five > > years, if ever, and will probably never need is the largest hurdle to > > overcome for new or returning FreeBSD users. > > DES took partial misleading context & exagerated. Original was: > > > At the stage one tries new Unixes, if too many things are missing > > &/or too much trouble to learn what & how & where changed, & how > > to restore; Rather than lose a lot of time on docs, mail lists > > etc, it's easy to decide: "Probably much else changed or missing > > too, I'll lose too much time to revert it to a working Unix > > environment. Try next OS." > > DES hyperbole discarded, CVS would be just one more issue just for some. > > Some might agressively pitch for a short timescale, but if CVS goes, > FreeBSD will hopefuly look beyond just its developers' group, remember its > users, & consider a schedule similar to one a OS software manager would. > > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com > Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". > Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- - Alfred Perlstein .- VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250, 07 zx10 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 01:33:36 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A259106566B for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 01:33:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vps.rulingia.com (host-122-100-2-194.octopus.com.au [122.100.2.194]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE10A8FC08 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 01:33:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from server.rulingia.com (c220-239-249-137.belrs5.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.239.249.137]) by vps.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8E16X51083774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:06:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8E16RRP037402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:06:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8E16PEJ037400; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:06:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from peter) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:06:25 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy To: "Julian H. Stacey" Message-ID: <20120914010625.GD15659@server.rulingia.com> References: <86har3sddc.fsf@ds4.des.no> <201209131249.q8DCnKe6061075@fire.js.berklix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201209131249.q8DCnKe6061075@fire.js.berklix.net> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 01:33:36 -0000 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2012-Sep-13 14:49:20 +0200, "Julian H. Stacey" wrote: >=3D?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=3DC3=3DB8rgrav?=3D wrote: >> Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box? I notice you've carefully avoided answering this. >DES hyperbole discarded, CVS would be just one more issue just for some. The hyperbole here is coming from you, not des@. >Some might agressively pitch for a short timescale, but if CVS goes, >FreeBSD will hopefuly look beyond just its developers' group, remember its >users, & consider a schedule similar to one a OS software manager would. CVS is a development tool and the version in FreeBSD base was intended for FreeBSD development. People using CVS for other purposes are unlikely to be best served by using an unmaintained and modified variant of an obsolete version of CVS. As for the schedule, as has been repeatedly stated, this change will only affect 10.x and later. If this proposal goes ahead, the first FreeBSD release to not have CVS in the base will be 10.0-RELEASE - which (IMHO) is unlikely to appear for another year. And 9.x will continue to include CVS in the base and should be supported for at least 2 years after 10.0-RELEASE comes out. Thus, anyone currently relying on the base CVS has at least 3 years to plan their transition. --=20 Peter Jeremy --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBSgxEACgkQ/opHv/APuIcuyQCcCU2xs4XLQdDOoBJ5y46DfFbf nX8AnizfVDIJjzlZj9HoyiRGxleW96ZH =Dxpf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 08:44:21 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199B5106566C for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 08:44:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA598FC19 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 08:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648986FD4; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:44:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 25A328E4A; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:44:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Markiyan Kushnir References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:44:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> (Markiyan Kushnir's message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:11:00 +0300") Message-ID: <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 08:44:21 -0000 Markiyan Kushnir writes: > I think I can replace csup with freebsd-update/portsnap pair for > upgrading the src and ports trees only, and still be able to build > everything from sources. You'd be better off using svn for your source tree. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 12:19:42 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A068A106566B for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:19:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markiyan.kushnir@gmail.com) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9828FC12 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:19:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by weyx56 with SMTP id x56so2785777wey.13 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 05:19:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4iJvlEh/XFtxkGUIesY78bOUcYEpFlc+hAbuzoQwfg0=; b=LI+1DWuZy31O9tGPzRgOcgHT9ueLVKlulZyzGBAfRiab4x7mLlkCs0gGcA+26eHt4A UBjjBrO0utbKnyhRkTiLV8Hulay2x1rFNdexwrMc24eOlTkMLv5vfBwg37AE9AuZhz1l ARW528Hnd6aB/++iaAXYN1NcaEv7Y45qFKSlpzLgp3wmnWa1Sno0P/Ohzs4y8zOHAN7B oKEH5rVkP44zPUZG99O+Vzd6EHvWErR3dGcqN6ohurzvrG65NdPZ4rp4Zge0hm4ZfbME X23c+BnhIge6zbUxQ+1zYqlLFm6nQJ1H5IfGN8T/MBLh6mcGywVrMcLum8gPgFFTBD5D 62wQ== Received: by 10.181.13.208 with SMTP id fa16mr5620947wid.11.1347625180937; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 05:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mkushnir.zapto.org (195-25-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net. [91.124.25.195]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dp8sm3822152wib.3.2012.09.14.05.19.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 05:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:18:39 +0300 From: Markiyan Kushnir User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120222 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:19:42 -0000 On 14.09.2012 11:44, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Markiyan Kushnir writes: >> I think I can replace csup with freebsd-update/portsnap pair for >> upgrading the src and ports trees only, and still be able to build >> everything from sources. > > You'd be better off using svn for your source tree. > > DES Well, yes. I see that I will have to use svn for source updates. Even if = I could update the src and ports trees via freebsd-update/portsnap, I=20 couldn't use it to track the sources between releases, or to track the HE= AD. I just wanted to see if I can retain the convenience of the system being = able to update its sources without the help of any ports app (which the=20 svn is). If it's not possible, I will "factor out" the source update=20 outside my upgrade scenario. -- Markiyan. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 12:59:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DFE106566B for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:59:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D1F8FC08 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:59:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1456067; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:59:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EA6A68E79; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:59:29 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Markiyan Kushnir References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:59:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> (Markiyan Kushnir's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:18:39 +0300") Message-ID: <86wqzw3glq.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:59:31 -0000 Markiyan Kushnir writes: > I just wanted to see if I can retain the convenience of the system > being able to update its sources without the help of any ports app > (which the svn is). I was working on a tool to do this - think of it as csup for svn - but it fell by the wayside. Other developers have expressed interest in picking it up again, but nothing has happened so far. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 14:17:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DCE106566B; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:17:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (alchemy.franken.de [194.94.249.214]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7873F8FC1A; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:17:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from alchemy.franken.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alchemy.franken.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/ALCHEMY.FRANKEN.DE) with ESMTP id q8EEGvBg013413; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:16:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marius@alchemy.franken.de) Received: (from marius@localhost) by alchemy.franken.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q8EEGunQ013412; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:16:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marius) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:16:56 +0200 From: Marius Strobl To: Adrian Chadd Message-ID: <20120914141656.GA13396@alchemy.franken.de> References: <504E4FE6.1020703@FreeBSD.org> <20120911150125.GH20762@e-new.0x20.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Lars Engels , Eitan Adler Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:17:07 -0000 On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:23:06AM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Hi, > > I want to have a working system in 10.x. For me, that includes GPL > software in the base if we can't easily cross build ports, as I want > to be able to have users build appliances and embedded devices using > what's in our base tree. > > Just saying. "GPL free" sounds zealot-y. We should be focusing on what > works, not on GPL-free. > +1 Marius From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 16:26:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E892D1065701 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:26:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB828FC19 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:26:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p5DCBFC17.dip.t-dialin.net [93.203.252.23]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8EGQHqt005418; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:26:19 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8EGQEcx011494; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:26:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8EG1lmf003367; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:01:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209141601.q8EG1lmf003367@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Peter Jeremy From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:06:25 +1000." <20120914010625.GD15659@server.rulingia.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:01:47 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: arch@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:26:28 -0000 > On 2012-Sep-13 14:49:20 +0200, "Julian H. Stacey" wrote: > >=3D?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=3DC3=3DB8rgrav?=3D wrote: > >> Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box? > > I notice you've carefully avoided answering this. I included all from DES to be polite, to make sure I didn't take DES out of context, despite he took me out context. DES's question "Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box?" while good, is one I have no further (*) time for. You in the remove CVS camp should have know or researched it before you proposed to remove CVS. > >DES hyperbole discarded, CVS would be just one more issue just for some. > > The hyperbole here is coming from you, not des@. False. DES twisted context, & exagerated between these http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013057.html http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013058.html (*) I had started researching other Unixes with CVS before DES asked, & I found refs, but agression kills motivation & I must travel. You in the remove CVS camp proposed change; Do your own search work. > >Some might agressively pitch for a short timescale, but if CVS goes, > >FreeBSD will hopefuly look beyond just its developers' group, remember its > >users, & consider a schedule similar to one a OS software manager would. > > CVS is a development tool and the version in FreeBSD base was intended > for FreeBSD development. People using CVS for other purposes are > unlikely to be best served by using an unmaintained and modified variant > of an obsolete version of CVS. OK, Would have been good mentioned earlier, eg when DES was flattening someone's idea to look at upgrading CVS to http://www.OpenCVS.org. > As for the schedule, as has been repeatedly stated, this change will only affect 10.x and later. If this proposal goes ahead, the first > FreeBSD release to not have CVS in the base will be 10.0-RELEASE - > which (IMHO) is unlikely to appear for another year. And 9.x will > continue to include CVS in the base and should be supported for at > least 2 years after 10.0-RELEASE comes out. Thus, anyone currently > relying on the base CVS has at least 3 years to plan their transition. OK, May be sufficient for many tracking FreeBSD. How many Unixes beyond may find your proposed change a nuisance, is unknown. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 19:14:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3221065700 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:14:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from markiyan.kushnir@gmail.com) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C448FC08 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by weyx56 with SMTP id x56so3068329wey.13 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:14:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ai72+6ONb2L9Gx82kCUL0a5FoByekf9ZZIrLHhpYT/c=; b=CDawEsXsv69mykE8zsNc2Zy3Hwf2/G6QmSnuQ7ulNefuSy35Nqx/B59BMHkg7oWRQh MwJUQuqvltAjT/WFtP0WXRDUZ5TXupj/Wr9bNhWmzmzwva0PWKXjztOEF6CZpQlmwcXq rwfDck8j9ooPnLOWDqw5A/gfLHnPjcEebnxoBnYOUV6Ii8ToELttfj8bQqBpJ8uigFhs sIQI+7J3caJG2Z4+1QPJOPGhP2GfkZMWuZmA+CfSaGz6BQ4n8516Y/Qh3mWXbcBYnnvz e4sZ1i6TkW56w8C9v2bHkBzCZ3NTrmtMf5efDGCugSPYQ5hXuP/rW0zDmeyGd4Lmwx1h J6iw== Received: by 10.216.241.137 with SMTP id g9mr1731431wer.122.1347650097733; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mkushnir.zapto.org (195-25-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net. [91.124.25.195]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l6sm283661wiz.4.2012.09.14.12.14.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <505381F2.6080305@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:13:54 +0300 From: Markiyan Kushnir User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120222 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?RGFnLUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXY=?= References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> <86wqzw3glq.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86wqzw3glq.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:14:59 -0000 On 14.09.2012 15:59, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: > Markiyan Kushnir writes: >> I just wanted to see if I can retain the convenience of the system >> being able to update its sources without the help of any ports app >> (which the svn is). > > I was working on a tool to do this - think of it as csup for svn - but > it fell by the wayside. Other developers have expressed interest in > picking it up again, but nothing has happened so far. > > DES Are there any links to your work on the web? -- Markiyan. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 19:33:31 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F792106566B for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:33:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9FB8FC12 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:33:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FD16199; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:33:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 316048EC7; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:33:30 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Markiyan Kushnir References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> <86wqzw3glq.fsf@ds4.des.no> <505381F2.6080305@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:33:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <505381F2.6080305@gmail.com> (Markiyan Kushnir's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:13:54 +0300") Message-ID: <86zk4se6wm.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:33:32 -0000 Markiyan Kushnir writes: > Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav writes: > > I was working on a tool to do this - think of it as csup for svn - > > but it fell by the wayside. Other developers have expressed > > interest in picking it up again, but nothing has happened so far. > Are there any links to your work on the web? svn://svn.freebsd.org/base/user/des/svnsup DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 22:39:02 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986731065672 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:39:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9A08FC22 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:39:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so8677571obb.13 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=y8BrnrdXdnpcRQ/84JEL7+yr6WyoSJ8sR9TXZM2mkd4=; b=acHHkOkTR1StNM+MS44Z8Bor8zV804n+9137ijj3P56SrbzTRE9s96h9SJ7bC/YJJG JV8PAeVu3P7VUMnu03lZMun5mo2qQTmHM4LjdTMZDJHdCyyXtqR/3He+zefHLTiYrsv/ W11KVODLU0ZELrrxH70M3zy21AOzRdRY0y6BC24IXg1jvIaGvk1FKud3duQ85IQAP+FY 3N5FpZ221ycO0Jz4DAMrWfQl3fWTyxPG0ZIR3w0QAQORPDk3nx/q4uzrhcByvPQyzIM8 QUpT6nxmTsE4rGXNFpy+2qXLf+dlPZ0TZTedGV4A3xygpchyjFpaaCQmHvyM3n8zxyBd zZxQ== Received: by 10.60.9.134 with SMTP id z6mr5707926oea.90.1347662341371; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [100.244.213.246] (m922636d0.tmodns.net. [208.54.38.146]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k8sm2739941oeh.9.2012.09.14.15.38.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:35:28 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0CD70A02-3649-4AD4-A6C0-84C3F25EAEFC@bsdimp.com> References: <505187E4.6060404@gmail.com> <86ehm65guf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5051DB64.4050504@gmail.com> <86y5kd3sf1.fsf@ds4.des.no> <5053209F.4090803@gmail.com> To: Markiyan Kushnir X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmcmIs223J0wEG7OWv3AjMVO6/VpnRLeE5i/YDIVsvraFs1l4Hx0ZAQ2OBtO/1F5/Kdlw2p Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:39:02 -0000 On Sep 14, 2012, at 7:18 AM, Markiyan Kushnir wrote: > On 14.09.2012 11:44, Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav wrote: >> Markiyan Kushnir writes: >>> I think I can replace csup with freebsd-update/portsnap pair for >>> upgrading the src and ports trees only, and still be able to build >>> everything from sources. >>=20 >> You'd be better off using svn for your source tree. >>=20 >> DES >=20 > Well, yes. I see that I will have to use svn for source updates. Even = if I could update the src and ports trees via freebsd-update/portsnap, I = couldn't use it to track the sources between releases, or to track the = HEAD. >=20 > I just wanted to see if I can retain the convenience of the system = being able to update its sources without the help of any ports app = (which the svn is). If it's not possible, I will "factor out" the source = update outside my upgrade scenario. Have we finally managed to document this as the preferred way to update? Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 14 22:46:09 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A4E106566C for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:46:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE3D8FC0A for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:46:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3so8684904obb.13 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=SygYVtaPS7EpgvOk/KKzkik62Os9Jox36SRby57dtPM=; b=DyjIqkHM05rwvt1uuyTH8X0awsToCYfPC2rGV03aVUI2lalbnOp7CJ1dPz0LrS+aOW z9/4K5KN+vDItg9YwRCmXlbizK/ZvTBlIBmnigp4x2uTShpL8yMpsIwerL5pfnq9sFP2 yuz0nb0YgrLxe012A2h6dUrKF1nYz3XFQMD9MQpueZzzUY9Gv7yj0rh4gzZrW6R4gM+z K2TeoMoZd/rYoAA332jTxWk+xqsCGuwuJKNHMPaL8uZBz+4T5+llOzYmdbteiGrauU2s ZUYREoDvXZDECOBKchnWwvuVdptnSe8Qp9zABWxTt0gpNWaKBM3xJwraAov9FEsetedC akrw== Received: by 10.60.30.136 with SMTP id s8mr5908736oeh.22.1347662768720; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [100.244.213.246] (m922636d0.tmodns.net. [208.54.38.146]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k8sm2755807oeh.9.2012.09.14.15.46.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <20120914010625.GD15659@server.rulingia.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:45:06 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <065A5AD8-E6F7-4634-9A20-23BA19FD915B@bsdimp.com> References: <86har3sddc.fsf@ds4.des.no> <201209131249.q8DCnKe6061075@fire.js.berklix.net> <20120914010625.GD15659@server.rulingia.com> To: Peter Jeremy X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkYybkKFDEQFn87+FhRyNnM4/7+G+gilGeipAQTtDIq+1gSyZ6ETxQZvVEmDFMTO3SMFsa1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:46:10 -0000 On Sep 13, 2012, at 8:06 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > As for the schedule, as has been repeatedly stated, this change will > only affect 10.x and later. If this proposal goes ahead, the first > FreeBSD release to not have CVS in the base will be 10.0-RELEASE - > which (IMHO) is unlikely to appear for another year. And 9.x will > continue to include CVS in the base and should be supported for at > least 2 years after 10.0-RELEASE comes out. Thus, anyone currently > relying on the base CVS has at least 3 years to plan their transition. One thing the project has been really *BAD* at is broadcasting this = information. They don't have 3 years to plan if the only record of this = decision is in email mailing lists. We need to have an UPDATING_MAJOR = to list the changes from the last major release that are user visible. = Otherwise they will have only "minutes" of warning when they install = 10.0. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 04:39:59 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053781065672 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 04:39:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-iy0-f182.google.com (mail-iy0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437828FC0A for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 04:39:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iayy25 with SMTP id y25so5106578iay.13 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=0P2Gzww3ZoyiJyp8me7hX6RuqZBCE078S2D/KMZzm5k=; b=GbH14pX6RDO+xQxqxYrDpa2SPVfasQDrQIZpgMRlWIpC1HHCS54vgy6SDBugXP6vRK irJamnENq20DTJNNlUaKdhEHrR91vDDhIsj3hDXg52tPXrLMRtpeR6OoJts3+XXL6xxO hJzgXqhAzHVL7ZN2aHh/QyMHHEpudw3M0OqoAUxqBzfHVBHAqoJJHAnCqck0EAzrgCcV iYvTobWP7a4k5hU0qepPkbJt0fdEO8XwYhgBO+QXpU2vPnof+HTcf7Oo6vK+xXOap4rL tiyzoTI0q1tjjPCz5hlVXEWxPzzvgWffCTmSzg14HKd4RmHaxXccYzw3tn3uEgFjk7MI kFXw== Received: by 10.50.188.129 with SMTP id ga1mr470337igc.6.1347683992042; Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 63.imp.bsdimp.com (50-78-194-198-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.78.194.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p5sm172559igm.13.2012.09.14.21.39.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <201209141601.q8EG1lmf003367@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:39:49 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C4DFA77-E2D8-4DA1-9512-5497ADAF740E@bsdimp.com> References: <201209141601.q8EG1lmf003367@fire.js.berklix.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk4/cazatSsiuRbJEtuV8DP/OHNtTBZ39X6LempRj6PJXyRLUpg4uUHmMdp8R9KpuaP+PhM Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 04:39:59 -0000 [picking a random message in this thread] I think that we've reached the point in this thread that "no clear = consensus exists for the change, therefore the status quo should remain = the case." All these points and counter points clearly show there's non consensus, = so this should be tabled. Warner On Sep 14, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Julian H. Stacey wrote: >> On 2012-Sep-13 14:49:20 +0200, "Julian H. Stacey" = wrote: >>> =3D3D?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=3D3DC3=3D3DB8rgrav?=3D3D wrote: >>>> Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box? >>=20 >> I notice you've carefully avoided answering this. >=20 > I included all from DES to be polite, to make sure I didn't take DES = out of > context, despite he took me out context. DES's question > "Which other Unices provide CVS out of the box?" > while good, is one I have no further (*) time for. You in the > remove CVS camp should have know or researched it before you proposed > to remove CVS. >=20 >=20 >>> DES hyperbole discarded, CVS would be just one more issue just for = some. >>=20 >> The hyperbole here is coming from you, not des@. >=20 > False. DES twisted context, & exagerated between these >=20 > = http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013057.html= > = http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013058.html= >=20 >=20 > (*) I had started researching other Unixes with CVS before DES asked, > & I found refs, but agression kills motivation & I must travel. > You in the remove CVS camp proposed change; Do your own search work. >=20 >=20 >>> Some might agressively pitch for a short timescale, but if CVS goes, >>> FreeBSD will hopefuly look beyond just its developers' group, = remember its >>> users, & consider a schedule similar to one a OS software manager = would. >>=20 >> CVS is a development tool and the version in FreeBSD base was = intended >> for FreeBSD development. People using CVS for other purposes are >> unlikely to be best served by using an unmaintained and modified = variant >> of an obsolete version of CVS. >=20 > OK, Would have been good mentioned earlier, eg when DES was > flattening someone's idea to look at upgrading CVS to = http://www.OpenCVS.org. >=20 >> As for the schedule, as has been repeatedly stated, this change will > only affect 10.x and later. If this proposal goes ahead, the first >> FreeBSD release to not have CVS in the base will be 10.0-RELEASE - >> which (IMHO) is unlikely to appear for another year. And 9.x will >> continue to include CVS in the base and should be supported for at >> least 2 years after 10.0-RELEASE comes out. Thus, anyone currently >> relying on the base CVS has at least 3 years to plan their = transition. >=20 > OK, May be sufficient for many tracking FreeBSD. > How many Unixes beyond may find your proposed change a nuisance, is = unknown. >=20 > Cheers, > Julian > --=20 > Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich = http://berklix.com > Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". > Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, = quoted-printable. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 11:16:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0BB1065670 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:16:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EBC38FC08 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:16:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (pD9FBFAAF.dip.t-dialin.net [217.251.250.175]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id q8FBGRTl021844; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:16:28 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q8FBGGIM016275; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:16:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8FBFvlt044104; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:16:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <201209151116.q8FBFvlt044104@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Warner Losh From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.com BSD Unix Linux Consultancy, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.com/free/ X-URL: http://www.berklix.com In-reply-to: Your message "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:45:06 CDT." <065A5AD8-E6F7-4634-9A20-23BA19FD915B@bsdimp.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:15:57 +0200 Sender: jhs@berklix.com Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:16:35 -0000 Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sep 13, 2012, at 8:06 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > > As for the schedule, as has been repeatedly stated, this change will > > only affect 10.x and later. If this proposal goes ahead, the first > > FreeBSD release to not have CVS in the base will be 10.0-RELEASE - > > which (IMHO) is unlikely to appear for another year. And 9.x will > > continue to include CVS in the base and should be supported for at > > least 2 years after 10.0-RELEASE comes out. Thus, anyone currently > > relying on the base CVS has at least 3 years to plan their transition. > > One thing the project has been really *BAD* at is broadcasting this information. They don't have 3 years to plan if the only record of this decision is in email mailing lists. We need to have an UPDATING_MAJOR to list the changes from the last major release that are user visible. Otherwise they will have only "minutes" of warning when they install 10.0. > > Warner Yes, more info/warning would be good, especially for those not [always] tracking lists &/or all releases. Maybe add a "road map" under http://www.freebsd.org/releases/ so people can see where FreeBSD is headed, exported in Ascii to src/SOMETHING (& with URL to newest version on web) ? PS if one goes to http://www.freebsd.org/releases/ & clicks "Release Documentation" it breaks going to http://www.freebsd.org/releases/relnotes.html should be http://www.freebsd.org/relnotes.html No need to report, I just did with send-pr. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". Send plain text. Not: HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 12:42:51 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05F3106566B for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:42:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D85F8FC0C for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:42:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so7511449pbb.13 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 05:42:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=gykZ+0jecYqTq8Ugaf1NVpIKFMv/34MHD8A4MUs3OIs=; b=HWBO1CAxFepFXbQUKu5c9WBSfJKJEKXseN4yR/A2Ldt5iUoSR7TbgWyxkj8AOX5JvT rQdw0WZZrxfSK+iUq3AO1ZshazzWsuQBHAwENe9QEjl36TCiKZMXflnHFOOjqa5ozg0l d6co05yjVMT8gjif97ZQqBjespNHGhiPfpufw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=gykZ+0jecYqTq8Ugaf1NVpIKFMv/34MHD8A4MUs3OIs=; b=V7vDmYhzOEYrPAk3uNsNYSZpcT9QZW0QpR+GktgiTef8LuGIsK01jP0e2jtd4fxZnO E0rkYDbUdBA0RdO/TxvBxNynaxPLgA2V5UkiPVDjJxu8ZuaQ+5z0wBFv+v8yY5GHF5PV 7azqKWI5ZUr1Oe/SvxvGmrfpW0zZKNt2FWwZhkz/nfMycXrxFPto/kyCv+1pBix0tLmX crkUZu3MYnnOdyEmfiUcyJDpwu/yg1UCVTay6iB3u/IC0bt1iVQKx3nxAp1nPTgnWJVI xWKYYJSOVPiEGo+wa4V1rzrQqWgAzjZ6XPb4gJoqMCq6BbW1VvALap/Cf+AUlH6iphJ3 +8hg== Received: by 10.68.229.73 with SMTP id so9mr10531802pbc.66.1347712970737; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 05:42:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.87.41 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 05:42:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2C4DFA77-E2D8-4DA1-9512-5497ADAF740E@bsdimp.com> References: <201209141601.q8EG1lmf003367@fire.js.berklix.net> <2C4DFA77-E2D8-4DA1-9512-5497ADAF740E@bsdimp.com> From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 08:42:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnxnsgG4g+YW08tlM54Mrqd7Tms7wn0QEDmzf53nbQcESJSHMZ21vVt2pPAv1l4zjuwzPOa Cc: arch@freebsd.org, "Julian H. Stacey" Subject: Re: Removing CVS from HEAD X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:42:51 -0000 On 15 September 2012 00:39, Warner Losh wrote: > [picking a random message in this thread] > > I think that we've reached the point in this thread that "no clear consensus exists for the change..." Agreed. >"..., therefore the status quo should remain the case." > All these points and counter points clearly show there's non consensus, so this should be tabled. I'm not sure that there has been absolutely no consensus here. I have longer form reply to this entire thread which I'm working on. -- Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 20:38:20 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5DD106566B for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lists@eitanadler.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7868FC12 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:38:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2so7846117pbb.13 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=eitanadler.com; s=0xdeadbeef; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uZZKMPbWaTKcWC/okN4yZ8XWW5/Sw+me4tcJFAPkpRw=; b=r/gV0oFhYRANyeSb42RtlhL4HIXvD9KCr/98UPhdInQwtSUuMc6cWCxeOdYQtNCuPA BRH0HmWQ88iqjCRaOg/BWeq4sk36lY9a9UDmxhVZ3f6jxXKEk5LNGTKCzs5c4tdoI90M QefwYJw/cM/7AY0kPzVexVkvaRXRDN1EnWISc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=uZZKMPbWaTKcWC/okN4yZ8XWW5/Sw+me4tcJFAPkpRw=; b=o2xCiOARmgVoId4iDhfVXQiLaXY2DcI3rikL8h6teCHh12kaYJ9HwVtG/NK1x9SJ3x D/0nP0tfe2IuISGCgR/KyJ/XMr1lcfRnV6gAO+64KcB2iY7yqS5Ir4atOCvS1dcBmQfu APJxpXvQJbTLCcdbflGrAZ2OO2B144Flb9Zu/0nuCkvN6wXgr9zHddSvxV67+dSAP3Dx enwIA7gozpsW0Cnf0QQ/NUZdpX/p11i/LCse1ata/ndwOfIu9CiF7atd8n2NNPMna0WC 0AMrcYhopmkaqBDGZ8Ss2GncAyCFt36L0Z+mIgV28HCZxxrYhFHyr9mdyuPpCqstTjIv zwHw== Received: by 10.66.73.100 with SMTP id k4mr10531562pav.49.1347741500356; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.87.41 with HTTP; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Eitan Adler Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:37:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl1dnUavveTXhxTB0rd5rH4Q/rT0K6llZfTExBxPT6sbVjOVrkmtLX0/Ia/UyyJrICwp4G/ Cc: Subject: Fallout from the CVS discussion X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:38:21 -0000 Hi everyone, After the 90+ email thread this is my take on the CVS discussion: Here is a summary of people that support CVS's removal now: Eitan Adler Peter Jeremy Bryan Drewery Tim Kientzle Poul-Henning Kamp Joel Dahl Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav Paul Schenkeveld Baptiste Daroussin Doug Barton Lars Engels Markiyan Kushnir Here is a summary of people that support CVS's eventual removal, but want to wait for some time: Warner Losh Erich Dollansky Bjoern A. Zeeb Garance A Drosehn Here is a summary of people that prefer not to remove CVS at all (or at least, specifically not for 10.0): Olli Hauer Julian H. Stacey Here are people that commented, whose opinion I did not see stated: Lev Serebryakov Glen Barber Ian Lepore Adrian Chadd Giovanni Trematerra Alfred Perlstein Jeffrey Bouquet Marius Strobl I believe the overwhelming majority of people commenting support the removal of CVS from base at some point before 10.0. As such I think it is correct to do so. I see following reasons to keep CVS brought up in the : - we still have some CVS infrastructure - lots of users still use the CVS infrastructure - Some users rely on CVS on machines which can't install ports - We don't have a complete subversion infrastructure ready - CVS has been traditionally installed on unix systems However, -CURRENT is not meant to be a production system. Users running -current are expected to follow the mailing lists, debug systems, and deal with tool changes. In particular these are the exact users capable of dealing with the above issues. In addition waiting to remove CVS delays the amount of time users will have to learn the "new world order," to find hidden dependencies on CVS, etc. There is a port (and package) available for CVS. CVS is not something not ordinarily needed by embedded systems, so concerns about the inability to use ports are minimal. My plan is to wait for some of the existing objections to be solved and then go ahead with the removal. In particular I will not remove CVS until (a) Documentation has been updated to the new svn for src, ports, www and d= oc (b) We create a 'changes between 9 and 10 list' and put this removal on it. In particular this document should well advertised (and possibly be a subset of the release notes) (c) We are sure the svn mirrors are sufficient enough for users both in the United States and in other countries. In particular I will *not* be waiting for: (i) cvsup to die (ii) a complete lack of CVS users. The discussion has resulted in some very useful ideas and feedback and I'd like to thank everyone who participated. If you have additional objections please followup with me *privately*. Other than this email, I will let the topic rest until such time as the first three conditions are met. --=20 Eitan Adler From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 20:53:55 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA05106566C for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486DA8FC12 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:53:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 3C7DA1A3DC7; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:53:49 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120915205349.GF34563@elvis.mu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fallout from the CVS discussion X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:53:55 -0000 This sounds like a plan. I apologize if my mail wasn't clear, it was jokish in nature. To clarify: I firmly support removal of CVS from HEAD. I'm also a bit troubled that something that makes so much sense blew up into such a large discussion. -Alfred * Eitan Adler [120915 13:39] wrote: > Hi everyone, > > After the 90+ email thread this is my take on the CVS discussion: > > Here is a summary of people that support CVS's removal now: > > Eitan Adler > Peter Jeremy > Bryan Drewery > Tim Kientzle > Poul-Henning Kamp > Joel Dahl > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav > Paul Schenkeveld > Baptiste Daroussin > Doug Barton > Lars Engels > Markiyan Kushnir > > Here is a summary of people that support CVS's eventual removal, but > want to wait for some time: > > Warner Losh > Erich Dollansky > Bjoern A. Zeeb > Garance A Drosehn > > Here is a summary of people that prefer not to remove CVS at all (or > at least, specifically not for 10.0): > > Olli Hauer > Julian H. Stacey > > Here are people that commented, whose opinion I did not see stated: > > Lev Serebryakov > Glen Barber > Ian Lepore > Adrian Chadd > Giovanni Trematerra > Alfred Perlstein > Jeffrey Bouquet > Marius Strobl > > I believe the overwhelming majority of people commenting support the > removal of CVS from base at some point before 10.0. As such I think it > is correct to do so. > > I see following reasons to keep CVS brought up in the : > > - we still have some CVS infrastructure > - lots of users still use the CVS infrastructure > - Some users rely on CVS on machines which can't install ports > - We don't have a complete subversion infrastructure ready > - CVS has been traditionally installed on unix systems > > However, -CURRENT is not meant to be a production system. Users > running -current are expected to follow the mailing lists, debug > systems, and deal with tool changes. In particular these are the exact > users capable of dealing with the above issues. In addition waiting to > remove CVS delays the amount of time users will have to learn the "new > world order," to find hidden dependencies on CVS, etc. There is a port > (and package) available for CVS. CVS is not something not ordinarily > needed by embedded systems, so concerns about the inability to use > ports are minimal. > > My plan is to wait for some of the existing objections to be solved > and then go ahead with the removal. > > In particular I will not remove CVS until > > (a) Documentation has been updated to the new svn for src, ports, www and doc > (b) We create a 'changes between 9 and 10 list' and put this removal on it. > In particular this document should well advertised (and possibly be a > subset of the release notes) > (c) We are sure the svn mirrors are sufficient enough for users both > in the United States and in other countries. > > In particular I will *not* be waiting for: > > (i) cvsup to die > (ii) a complete lack of CVS users. > > The discussion has resulted in some very useful ideas and feedback > and I'd like to thank everyone who participated. > If you have additional objections please followup with me *privately*. > Other than this email, I will let the topic rest until such time as > the first three conditions are met. > > > -- > Eitan Adler > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- - Alfred Perlstein .- VMOA #5191, 03 vmax, 92 gs500, 85 ch250, 07 zx10 .- FreeBSD committer From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 21:57:12 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60ABF106566B for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:57:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::28]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451FE8FC0C; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:57:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q8FLvCrn049090; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:57:12 GMT (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from bapt@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id q8FLvCRj049026; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:57:12 GMT (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: bapt set sender to bapt@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:57:09 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120915215709.GA13414@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Fallout from the CVS discussion X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:57:12 -0000 --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 04:37:49PM -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi everyone, >=20 [...] >=20 > (b) We create a 'changes between 9 and 10 list' and put this removal on i= t. > In particular this document should well advertised (and possibly be a > subset of the release notes) I do like what Ivan Voras is doing: http://ivoras.sharanet.org/freebsd/freebsd10.html this is really useful, ma= ybe this can be take a an example to start with. This was one of the best way I found to follow what was going on, on FreeBSD before I get involved into the project. regards, Bapt --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAlBU+bQACgkQ8kTtMUmk6ExkngCgvrIWzqFfNJ7c7F+euTpDPOVF sMwAn2/+qVGwqK2EeD8jlovrUzW2bEpD =pyze -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 23:01:01 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4B21065672 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:01:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bryan@shatow.net) Received: from secure.xzibition.com (secure.xzibition.com [173.160.118.92]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED868FC14 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:01:00 +0000 (UTC) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=shatow.net; h=message-id :date:from:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=sweb; b=I9sOjZ ZQ2mGuibDoNRQ2o5CTCso2AmIFrgsPNr3o4n53Su3oAMgaCdHA2h2m1xkLDBH75P j4f6Cr26To1R3FZygKqLnKbPJh3tPRczIiRztgZooOtyTM1YmhL5MvbMzA+H+A/l oMbcbt6I69Y55FdDIhWeO8m7GslsnoPvizAXs= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=shatow.net; h=message-id :date:from:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=sweb; bh=N4QChJl05Wzj aSYp3hw4pvQ9ycGD8nANSuI9tA8WJIk=; b=d63d6cJ7rwfrjOnQpCjJxzve0xb8 84hNBTAz3ZuLrjAhPwgXbaLCCrnqNOAhfQhci76+I+5mow2h8syQ9p0uCUfa50Sl kiqzBn1v6mPMPOjDa9ncVeCvDfOGXb7ivmp4el3LDEjZEuyoMz1kwvNTq5HxMbVm Knw2/GpjsjqwK3k= Received: (qmail 72639 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2012 18:00:58 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.21.117?) (bryan@shatow.net@74.94.87.209) by sweb.xzibition.com with ESMTPA; 15 Sep 2012 18:00:58 -0500 Message-ID: <505508D1.9020201@shatow.net> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 18:01:37 -0500 From: Bryan Drewery User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20120915215709.GA13414@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> In-Reply-To: <20120915215709.GA13414@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Eitan Adler , Baptiste Daroussin , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Fallout from the CVS discussion X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:01:01 -0000 On 9/15/2012 4:57 PM, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 04:37:49PM -0400, Eitan Adler wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> > [...] >> >> (b) We create a 'changes between 9 and 10 list' and put this removal on it. >> In particular this document should well advertised (and possibly be a >> subset of the release notes) > > I do like what Ivan Voras is doing: > http://ivoras.sharanet.org/freebsd/freebsd10.html this is really useful, maybe > this can be take a an example to start with. > > This was one of the best way I found to follow what was going on, on FreeBSD > before I get involved into the project. > > regards, > Bapt > Exactly the same here. I was following his "Whats cooking" blog for years. Bryan From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Sep 15 23:55:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACC71065670 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:55:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from erich@alogreentechnologies.com) Received: from alogreentechnologies.com (alogreentechnologies.com [67.212.224.110]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68DF58FC12 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:55:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from X220.ovitrap.com ([122.129.201.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by alogreentechnologies.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id q8FNtHYb022864; Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:55:19 -0600 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 06:55:17 +0700 From: Erich Dollansky To: Eitan Adler Message-ID: <20120916065517.3632ff29@X220.ovitrap.com> In-Reply-To: References: Organization: ALO Green Technologies X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.0 (GTK+ 2.24.6; amd64-portbld-freebsd10.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fallout from the CVS discussion X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:55:27 -0000 Hi, On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:37:49 -0400 Eitan Adler wrote: > In particular I will not remove CVS until > > (a) Documentation has been updated to the new svn for src, ports, www > and doc (b) We create a 'changes between 9 and 10 list' and put this > removal on it. In particular this document should well advertised > (and possibly be a subset of the release notes) > (c) We are sure the svn mirrors are sufficient enough for users both > in the United States and in other countries. > this sounds so much better than the original. Especially (c) will make us users from outside the USA happy. With this plan in mind, there are no practical issues anymore stopping people from switching. I think that all of us will agree with this. Erich