From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 20 13:33:32 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCEC106566C; Sun, 20 May 2012 13:33:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA6B8FC16; Sun, 20 May 2012 13:33:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E11F62A7; Sun, 20 May 2012 13:33:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 30AEF9058; Sun, 20 May 2012 15:33:24 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Arlen Cuss References: <4FA2434F.1020802@unsane.co.uk> <864nrxh5zf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <868vgsv0ga.fsf@ds4.des.no> Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 15:33:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Arlen Cuss's message of "Fri, 18 May 2012 13:43:54 +1000") Message-ID: <86d35zt1sr.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "Hamell, Rick \(SPARQ\)" , Vance Siemens , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , Vincent Hoffman Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 13:33:32 -0000 Arlen Cuss writes: > "Troll" *is* right there in the name! Yes, thank you, we hadn't noticed. Good thing you were there to set us straight. Oh, and please learn to quote. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 20 17:07:06 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3D2106566B; Sun, 20 May 2012 17:07:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from web.podro.com (unknown [IPv6:2607:f7d0:300:1::100]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00AFF8FC0A; Sun, 20 May 2012 17:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from web.podro.com (web.podro.com [65.18.192.166]) by web.podro.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q4KH73xg061060; Sun, 20 May 2012 12:07:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from ns1.podro.com (ns1.podro.com [65.18.192.210]) by web.podro.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q4KH73pH061058; Sun, 20 May 2012 12:07:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) X-Authentication-Warning: web.podro.com: joe set sender to jamie@geniegate.com using -f Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 12:07:02 -0500 From: Jamie To: Vance Siemens Message-ID: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> References: <4FA2434F.1020802@unsane.co.uk> <864nrxh5zf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <868vgsv0ga.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Vincent Hoffman Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 17:07:06 -0000 On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 07:20:18PM -0400, Vance Siemens wrote: > Eh, sorry. I got excited at the prospect of downloading FreeBSD from > the App Store and having the installer "just work" in a modern GUI. > You have to admit, FreeBSD is lacking in this area. It would be a > boon. Personally, I wouldn't like that. A good text UI with a menu is perfect, it works over terminals. It's perfect for server environments. If anything, I should think remote access should be improved. When I want the GUI operating system that "just works" at the expense of forcing me to do everything their way, I use ubuntu. Ubuntu is a toy, suitable for watching videos, browsing and doing email. It does a pretty good job of that, whats the point of trying to out-do them in the toy department? I suppose if they had to do it, a browser based install would be cool. Then you could spend most of your time trying to get the network settings working so the browser would work. :-) The real problem, as I see it, is public perception. I see people using toys like ubuntu for servers, proclaiming "linux is good for servers" and thats just silly. (but it is the popular opinion) Linux (especially ubuntu) isn't particularly wonderful for most servers. Jamie -- http://www.triviacompanion.com Jet-Set & Jazzy Bachelor Pad Music Jazz * Lounge * Spy Sounds =< Relaxing Work Music - Fun Times >= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 20 17:16:27 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE28106564A; Sun, 20 May 2012 17:16:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vance.siemens@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55EF8FC08; Sun, 20 May 2012 17:16:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pbbro2 with SMTP id ro2so6421581pbb.13 for ; Sun, 20 May 2012 10:16:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ZaIeVx8Tx23vwh+z8tOCX8j9S0d/LotATmu4PaAotxs=; b=T2MsNamfZExt8sDgN2rNBMoyR6+NNx6/XLiS3YGP7KYAo4GsSwJ2Zy/2unb7alYDip Dgs7FwjzfsDLC8M9s1oFmxVgeuQHbtrVHmV9canT/+VLyikw4scinCoXNOiAxJmSfWKP pc1bF9A0mHyL5hsWbH8y1THd7T/z+bNnFhHJt4kO6DWloSZgX2pDgIQ+NbibtGObfF3S ctES0SHGTlJ4SkkfRMaMLzVxEBTm6Q4NOkWTF3Q66Jk5rQ31sq7fD0DHY2i9bpi8pYXI Yn/3HUEHbNaA1f5brMVanr0i2hWeZdBu0MdPt5jwSArYao1IsZ32PL4R9HNBB3NbWaqJ ZcMA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.195.65 with SMTP id ic1mr56381004pbc.71.1337534186025; Sun, 20 May 2012 10:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.25.138 with HTTP; Sun, 20 May 2012 10:16:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FAE859F.5010108@feral.com> References: <4FA2434F.1020802@unsane.co.uk> <864nrxh5zf.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4FAE859F.5010108@feral.com> Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 13:16:25 -0400 Message-ID: From: Vance Siemens To: mj@feral.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 17:16:27 -0000 Maybe there is some truth to this. FreeBSD uses use clang, Apple's compiler, since FreeBSD 9: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-May/067486.html. On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Matthew Jacob wrote: > On 5/12/2012 6:25 AM, Vance Siemens wrote: >> >> Can you share a brief overview of what's wrong with it? I guess I'm >> not as knowledgeable as I thought. The story was quite enticing to me. >> > Very few of the historical facts are actually correct. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 20 20:42:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6345106566B; Sun, 20 May 2012 20:42:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rmacklem@uoguelph.ca) Received: from esa-annu.mail.uoguelph.ca (esa-annu.mail.uoguelph.ca [131.104.91.36]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D978FC12; Sun, 20 May 2012 20:42:13 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqAEAJZVuU+DaFvO/2dsb2JhbABDhS2vaIIVAQEBAwEBAQEgBCcHFgMLBRYYAgINGQIpAQkmBggHBAEcBIdoBQurV5FkgSaJXxmEIIEUA5J2giWBD45hgwWBQw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,626,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="169965584" Received: from erie.cs.uoguelph.ca (HELO zcs3.mail.uoguelph.ca) ([131.104.91.206]) by esa-annu-pri.mail.uoguelph.ca with ESMTP; 20 May 2012 16:42:12 -0400 Received: from zcs3.mail.uoguelph.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zcs3.mail.uoguelph.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F241B3EFE; Sun, 20 May 2012 16:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 16:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Rick Macklem To: Jamie Message-ID: <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [172.17.91.203] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.10_GA_2692 (ZimbraWebClient - FF3.0 (Win)/6.0.10_GA_2692) Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Vance Siemens , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Vincent Hoffman Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 20:42:13 -0000 Jamie wrote: > On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 07:20:18PM -0400, Vance Siemens wrote: > > Eh, sorry. I got excited at the prospect of downloading FreeBSD from > > the App Store and having the installer "just work" in a modern GUI. > > You have to admit, FreeBSD is lacking in this area. It would be a > > boon. > > Personally, I wouldn't like that. A good text UI with a menu is > perfect, > it works over terminals. It's perfect for server environments. > > If anything, I should think remote access should be improved. > > When I want the GUI operating system that "just works" at the expense > of forcing me to do everything their way, I use ubuntu. > > Ubuntu is a toy, suitable for watching videos, browsing and doing > email. It > does a pretty good job of that, whats the point of trying to out-do > them > in the toy department? > Well, I worked for a computer science dept. for 30years and it seemed to go something like this: - Undergrad installs "toy" version of Linux on their desktop/laptop, likes it and promotes it to their friends. - When these students graduate, they put Linux/Unix experience on their resume and get hired by a company with no Unix-like systems expertise. --> They set up Linux servers for said company. If the same was happening for xxBSD, then they would list that as well as Linux and they would at least be aware that both existed. I don't believe FreeBSD needs to try and do the easy to install GUI distro, but they could reference the xxBSD distros that do try to do this. (Yea, I know someone didn't like using the term distro for xxBSD distributions, but...) rick > I suppose if they had to do it, a browser based install would be cool. > Then you > could spend most of your time trying to get the network settings > working so the > browser would work. :-) > > The real problem, as I see it, is public perception. I see people > using > toys like ubuntu for servers, proclaiming "linux is good for servers" > and > thats just silly. (but it is the popular opinion) > > Linux (especially ubuntu) isn't particularly wonderful for most > servers. > > Jamie > > -- > http://www.triviacompanion.com Jet-Set & Jazzy Bachelor Pad Music > Jazz * Lounge * Spy Sounds =< Relaxing Work Music - Fun Times >= > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun May 20 23:18:23 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96401065672; Sun, 20 May 2012 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from diana.db.net (diana.db.net [66.113.102.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501C58FC0A; Sun, 20 May 2012 23:18:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from night.db.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by diana.db.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C9A2AA391; Sun, 20 May 2012 17:18:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by night.db.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DE4985C5A; Sun, 20 May 2012 18:18:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 18:18:14 -0500 From: Diane Bruce To: Rick Macklem Message-ID: <20120520231814.GA40576@night.db.net> References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Cc: Jamie , Vincent Hoffman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Vance Siemens Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 23:18:23 -0000 On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 04:42:12PM -0400, Rick Macklem wrote: > Jamie wrote: > > On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 07:20:18PM -0400, Vance Siemens wrote: > > > Eh, sorry. I got excited at the prospect of downloading FreeBSD from ... > Well, I worked for a computer science dept. for 30years and it seemed > to go something like this: > - Undergrad installs "toy" version of Linux on their desktop/laptop, > likes it and promotes it to their friends. > - When these students graduate, they put Linux/Unix experience on their > resume and get hired by a company with no Unix-like systems expertise. > --> They set up Linux servers for said company. > > If the same was happening for xxBSD, then they would list that as well as > Linux and they would at least be aware that both existed. I don't believe > FreeBSD needs to try and do the easy to install GUI distro, but they could > reference the xxBSD distros that do try to do this. (Yea, I know someone > didn't like using the term distro for xxBSD distributions, but...) And when I do get people to look at PCBSD since it looks so spiffy, they download an ISO only to have it not boot. It's incredibly frustrating. > > rick - Diane -- - db@FreeBSD.org db@db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 03:53:28 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A250D106564A for ; Mon, 21 May 2012 03:53:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from web.podro.com (unknown [IPv6:2607:f7d0:300:1::100]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479508FC15 for ; Mon, 21 May 2012 03:53:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from web.podro.com (web.podro.com [65.18.192.166]) by web.podro.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q4L3rQ0q093319; Sun, 20 May 2012 22:53:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from ns1.podro.com (ns1.podro.com [65.18.192.210]) by web.podro.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q4L3rN8k093310; Sun, 20 May 2012 22:53:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) X-Authentication-Warning: web.podro.com: joe set sender to jamie@geniegate.com using -f Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 22:53:23 -0500 From: Jamie To: Rick Macklem Message-ID: <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Jamie , Vincent Hoffman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Vance Siemens Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 03:53:28 -0000 On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 04:42:12PM -0400, Rick Macklem wrote: > Well, I worked for a computer science dept. for 30years and it seemed > to go something like this: > - Undergrad installs "toy" version of Linux on their desktop/laptop, > likes it and promotes it to their friends. > - When these students graduate, they put Linux/Unix experience on their > resume and get hired by a company with no Unix-like systems expertise. > --> They set up Linux servers for said company. > > If the same was happening for xxBSD, then they would list that as well as > Linux and they would at least be aware that both existed. I don't believe > FreeBSD needs to try and do the easy to install GUI distro, but they could > reference the xxBSD distros that do try to do this. (Yea, I know someone > didn't like using the term distro for xxBSD distributions, but...) I've got a friend/associate who refers to FreeBSD as a "niche" operating system. He raves about how great the cloud is and gets a chuckle out of me running a "niche" system. This guy is smart, perhaps even brilliant. He's wise to many technologies, and yet he seems to think of FreeBSD as a joke. Jails are usually more suited to "cloud work" than KVM or the latest OpenVZ/Containers/??? of the linux world ever will be... and yet, when you look into so-called cloud computing (a fuzzy term that I pretty much lump compartmentalization & redundancy into) FreeBSD is mostly unheard of. Clearly, FreeBSD is missing out on the cloud, even though the jail system in FreeBSD is quite awesome. The real problem, as I see it, is the failure to recognize the value of open UNIX-ish systems. Linux *is* better at some things, so is OpenBSD, and so is FreeBSD. (I won't be running FreeBSD on the desktop ever again.. been there once, it sucked) It's unfortunate that people make IT decisions based on popularity. Not just operating systems, "mysql is the best database" for example. I think we ought to call it "cow computing" because people act like cattle when they make decisions... follow the herd. If the goal is to make freebsd uber-popular, it needs more alpha cows, not "more quality".. it already has awesome quality. I don't think more shiny things will help, but shiny glitter could end up hurting it, if it interferes with the elegance FreeBSD currently enjoys. Make the jail system appeal to the alpha's and we'd see it rocket in server popularity. Jamie -- http://www.triviacompanion.com Jet-Set & Jazzy Bachelor Pad Music Jazz * Lounge * Spy Sounds =< Relaxing Work Music - Fun Times >= From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 08:57:35 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39449106566C; Mon, 21 May 2012 08:57:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB37F8FC0A; Mon, 21 May 2012 08:57:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01026511; Mon, 21 May 2012 08:57:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7BDD6911F; Mon, 21 May 2012 10:57:33 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Jamie References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 10:57:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> (jamie@geniegate.com's message of "Sun, 20 May 2012 22:53:23 -0500") Message-ID: <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Vincent Hoffman , Vance Siemens , Rick Macklem , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 08:57:35 -0000 Jamie writes: > Jails are usually more suited to "cloud work" than KVM or the latest > OpenVZ/Containers/??? of the linux world ever will be... No, they're not. VMWare, RHEV (KVM-based) etc. provide features such as seamless migration of virtual machines from one physical machine to another, automatic restart on a different physical server if one fails etc. that simply aren't possible with jails; and there are certain things you still can't run reliably / safely in jails - anything that relies on SysV IPC, for instance, such as PostgreSQL. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 16:38:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35CF106564A; Mon, 21 May 2012 16:38:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oleg.moskalenko@citrix.com) Received: from SMTP02.CITRIX.COM (smtp02.citrix.com [66.165.176.63]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE208FC0A; Mon, 21 May 2012 16:38:33 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,631,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="195821001" Received: from sjcpmailmx02.citrite.net ([10.216.14.75]) by FTLPIPO02.CITRIX.COM with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 21 May 2012 12:38:26 -0400 Received: from SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net ([10.216.4.72]) by SJCPMAILMX02.citrite.net ([10.216.14.75]) with mapi; Mon, 21 May 2012 09:38:25 -0700 From: Oleg Moskalenko To: =?utf-8?B?J0RhZy1FcmxpbmcgU23DuHJncmF2Jw==?= , Jamie Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 09:38:25 -0700 Thread-Topic: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... Thread-Index: Ac03L+RvG3bpj6u2Q7SX8wYQfo7WTgAPqbzw Message-ID: <031222CBCF33214AB2EB4ABA279428A3011A2D017097@SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net> References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , Vance Siemens , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , Rick Macklem , Vincent Hoffman Subject: RE: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 16:38:33 -0000 TW9kZXJuIGxhcmdlLXNjYWxlIHZpcnR1YWxpemF0aW9uIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyBhcmUgYmFzZWQg dXBvbiBiYXJlLW1ldGFsIHZlcnNpb25zIG9mIFZNV2FyZSBhbmQgWGVuU2VydmVyLiBUaGV5IGFy ZSBub3QgTGludXggYW5kIHRoZXkgYXJlIG5vdCBGcmVlQlNEIC0gdGhlIEh5cGVydmlzb3JzIGFy ZSBhIHNwZWNpYWxpemVkIGJyZWVkIG9mIE9TZXMgKGFsYmVpdCwgdGhlIGh5cGVydmlzb3IgbWFu YWdlciBpcyB1c3VhbGx5IGEgVU5JWC1saWtlIE9TKS4gQW55IGNvbnZlbnRpb25hbCBPUyAoTGlu dXgsIEZyZWVCU0QpIGNhbiBvbmx5IGRvIHRoZWlyIGJlc3QgdG8gYmUgYSAiY2l2aWxpemVkIiBn dWVzdCBPUy4gTGludXggb3IgRnJlZUJTRCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgYSBzZXJ2ZXIgcGxhdGZvcm0gZm9y IHJlYWwgZW50ZXJwcmlzZSB2aXJ0dWFsaXphdGlvbiAtIHRoZSBoeXBlcnZpc29ycyBoYXZlIHdv biB0aGF0IHBsYWNlLiBUaGlzIGlzIG5vdCBhIGNvbnRlc3QgcG9pbnQgYmV0d2VlbiBMaW51eCBh bmQgRnJlZUJTRC4gVGhlIGphaWwgc3lzdGVtIGlzIG5vdCBoZWxwZnVsIGZvciBlbnRlcnByaXNl IHZpcnR1YWxpemF0aW9uLCBlaXRoZXIuDQoNCk9sZWcNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3Nh Z2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBvd25lci1mcmVlYnNkLWN1cnJlbnRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcgW21haWx0 bzpvd25lci1mcmVlYnNkLQ0KPiBjdXJyZW50QGZyZWVic2Qub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRGFn LUVybGluZyBTbcO4cmdyYXYNCj4gU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBNYXkgMjEsIDIwMTIgMTo1OCBBTQ0K PiBUbzogSmFtaWUNCj4gQ2M6IFZpbmNlbnQgSG9mZm1hbjsgVmFuY2UgU2llbWVuczsgUmljayBN YWNrbGVtOyBmcmVlYnNkLQ0KPiBjaGF0QGZyZWVic2Qub3JnOyBmcmVlYnNkLWN1cnJlbnRAZnJl ZWJzZC5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IEZyZWVCU0QgMTAgcHJvZ25vc3RpY2F0aW9uLi4uDQo+ IA0KPiBKYW1pZSA8amFtaWVAZ2VuaWVnYXRlLmNvbT4gd3JpdGVzOg0KPiA+IEphaWxzIGFyZSB1 c3VhbGx5IG1vcmUgc3VpdGVkIHRvICJjbG91ZCB3b3JrIiB0aGFuIEtWTSBvciB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0 DQo+ID4gT3BlblZaL0NvbnRhaW5lcnMvPz8/IG9mIHRoZSBsaW51eCB3b3JsZCBldmVyIHdpbGwg YmUuLi4NCj4gDQo+IE5vLCB0aGV5J3JlIG5vdC4gIFZNV2FyZSwgUkhFViAoS1ZNLWJhc2VkKSBl dGMuIHByb3ZpZGUgZmVhdHVyZXMgc3VjaA0KPiBhcw0KPiBzZWFtbGVzcyBtaWdyYXRpb24gb2Yg dmlydHVhbCBtYWNoaW5lcyBmcm9tIG9uZSBwaHlzaWNhbCBtYWNoaW5lIHRvDQo+IGFub3RoZXIs IGF1dG9tYXRpYyByZXN0YXJ0IG9uIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IHBoeXNpY2FsIHNlcnZlciBpZiBvbmUg ZmFpbHMNCj4gZXRjLiB0aGF0IHNpbXBseSBhcmVuJ3QgcG9zc2libGUgd2l0aCBqYWlsczsgYW5k IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBjZXJ0YWluDQo+IHRoaW5ncyB5b3Ugc3RpbGwgY2FuJ3QgcnVuIHJlbGlhYmx5 IC8gc2FmZWx5IGluIGphaWxzIC0gYW55dGhpbmcgdGhhdA0KPiByZWxpZXMgb24gU3lzViBJUEMs IGZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgc3VjaCBhcyBQb3N0Z3JlU1FMLg0KPiANCj4gREVTDQo+IC0tDQo+IERh Zy1FcmxpbmcgU23DuHJncmF2IC0gZGVzQGRlcy5ubw0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBmcmVlYnNkLWN1cnJlbnRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IGh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5mcmVlYnNkLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2ZyZWVic2QtY3VycmVudA0KPiBUbyB1bnN1YnNjcmliZSwgc2VuZCBhbnkgbWFpbCB0byAiZnJl ZWJzZC1jdXJyZW50LQ0KPiB1bnN1YnNjcmliZUBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZyINCg== From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 16:47:53 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A626E1065672; Mon, 21 May 2012 16:47:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 615058FC23; Mon, 21 May 2012 16:47:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ds4.des.no (smtp.des.no [194.63.250.102]) by smtp.des.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11186698; Mon, 21 May 2012 16:47:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ds4.des.no (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 91A759174; Mon, 21 May 2012 18:47:52 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= To: Oleg Moskalenko References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> <031222CBCF33214AB2EB4ABA279428A3011A2D017097@SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net> Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 18:47:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <031222CBCF33214AB2EB4ABA279428A3011A2D017097@SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net> (Oleg Moskalenko's message of "Mon, 21 May 2012 09:38:25 -0700") Message-ID: <86pq9xqy4n.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Jamie , Rick Macklem , Vincent Hoffman , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , Vance Siemens Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 16:47:53 -0000 Oleg Moskalenko writes: > Modern large-scale virtualization technologies are based upon > bare-metal versions of VMWare and XenServer. They are not Linux and > they are not FreeBSD AFAIK, RHEV is KVM on top of RHEL. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 17:27:45 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F2D10657BA; Mon, 21 May 2012 17:27:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from oleg.moskalenko@citrix.com) Received: from SMTP.CITRIX.COM (smtp.citrix.com [66.165.176.89]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E9A8FC1E; Mon, 21 May 2012 17:27:45 +0000 (UTC) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,632,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="25398153" Received: from sjcpmailmx01.citrite.net ([10.216.14.74]) by FTLPIPO01.CITRIX.COM with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 21 May 2012 13:27:38 -0400 Received: from SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net ([10.216.4.72]) by SJCPMAILMX01.citrite.net ([10.216.14.74]) with mapi; Mon, 21 May 2012 10:27:37 -0700 From: Oleg Moskalenko To: =?utf-8?B?J0RhZy1FcmxpbmcgU23DuHJncmF2Jw==?= Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 10:27:37 -0700 Thread-Topic: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... Thread-Index: Ac03ce/vvpJuTAmNRnGeqfQ53XZBVgAA2crA Message-ID: <031222CBCF33214AB2EB4ABA279428A3011A2D017098@SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net> References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> <031222CBCF33214AB2EB4ABA279428A3011A2D017097@SJCPMAILBOX01.citrite.net> <86pq9xqy4n.fsf@ds4.des.no> In-Reply-To: <86pq9xqy4n.fsf@ds4.des.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Jamie , Vance, Rick Macklem , Vincent Hoffman , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , Siemens Subject: RE: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 17:27:45 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBEYWctRXJsaW5nIFNtw7hyZ3Jh diBbbWFpbHRvOmRlc0BkZXMubm9dDQo+IFNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgTWF5IDIxLCAyMDEyIDk6NDgg QU0NCj4gVG86IE9sZWcgTW9za2FsZW5rbw0KPiBDYzogSmFtaWU7IFZpbmNlbnQgSG9mZm1hbjsg VmFuY2UgU2llbWVuczsgUmljayBNYWNrbGVtOyBmcmVlYnNkLQ0KPiBjaGF0QGZyZWVic2Qub3Jn OyBmcmVlYnNkLWN1cnJlbnRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IEZyZWVCU0QgMTAg cHJvZ25vc3RpY2F0aW9uLi4uDQo+IA0KPiBPbGVnIE1vc2thbGVua28gPG9sZWcubW9za2FsZW5r b0BjaXRyaXguY29tPiB3cml0ZXM6DQo+ID4gTW9kZXJuIGxhcmdlLXNjYWxlIHZpcnR1YWxpemF0 aW9uIHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyBhcmUgYmFzZWQgdXBvbg0KPiA+IGJhcmUtbWV0YWwgdmVyc2lvbnMg b2YgVk1XYXJlIGFuZCBYZW5TZXJ2ZXIuIFRoZXkgYXJlIG5vdCBMaW51eCBhbmQNCj4gPiB0aGV5 IGFyZSBub3QgRnJlZUJTRA0KPiANCj4gQUZBSUssIFJIRVYgaXMgS1ZNIG9uIHRvcCBvZiBSSEVM DQoNClRoaXMgaXMgdHJ1ZS4gQnV0IEtWTXMgc2hhcmUgaXMgc3RpbGwgdmVyeSBzbWFsbCwgYXJv dW5kIDIlLCBzbyBpdHMgdG9vIGVhcmx5IHRvIHNheSBhYm91dCB0aGUgdGVjaG5vbG9neS4gS1ZN IGFwcHJvYWNoIGlzIHRvIGJsZW5kIHRoZSBoeXBlcnZpc2VyIGFuZCB0aGUgTGludXgga2VybmVs IGluIG9uZSBzaW5nbGUgdGhpbmcuDQoNCj4gDQo+IERFUw0KPiAtLQ0KPiBEYWctRXJsaW5nIFNt w7hyZ3JhdiAtIGRlc0BkZXMubm8NCg== From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 18:47:46 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532AA106567A for ; Mon, 21 May 2012 18:47:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from web.podro.com (unknown [IPv6:2607:f7d0:300:1::100]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EAC8FC1D for ; Mon, 21 May 2012 18:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from web.podro.com (web.podro.com [65.18.192.166]) by web.podro.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q4LIlggc012914; Mon, 21 May 2012 13:47:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) Received: from ns1.podro.com (ns1.podro.com [65.18.192.210]) by web.podro.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id q4LIle1W012911; Mon, 21 May 2012 13:47:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jamie@geniegate.com) X-Authentication-Warning: web.podro.com: joe set sender to jamie@geniegate.com using -f Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 13:47:39 -0500 From: Jamie To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav Message-ID: <20120521184739.GA22790@mule.podro.com> References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Jamie , Rick Macklem , Vincent Hoffman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Vance Siemens Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 18:47:46 -0000 On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:57:33AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > No, they're not. VMWare, RHEV (KVM-based) etc. provide features such as > seamless migration of virtual machines from one physical machine to > another, automatic restart on a different physical server if one fails > etc. that simply aren't possible with jails; and there are certain > things you still can't run reliably / safely in jails - anything that > relies on SysV IPC, for instance, such as PostgreSQL. True about the SysV, and I mostly agree about automatic failover. But I think the FreeBSD jail system is still the better model for how I see these things being used (certainly the better *potential*). But yea, not "quite" cloud. When coupled with something like rsync, they *almost* do the job. And for a lot of the current "VPS" applications, they do the job. But lets suppose you want proper redundancy and partitioned environments, so, you put FreeBSD on a cloud, but partition your environments into jails. Now you have a cheap, low overhead way of doing logical partitioning and you still have a "cloud" with redundancy. Linux KVM has serious network issues, and overhead. (I use KVM a fair amount, it's OK for testing, but when under load, KVM-based linux hosting sucks for serious use) If the goal is to get FreeBSD uber popular, then turn the alphas on to the jail system. (or the pre-emptive swapping, or.. or.. or...) I don't believe it's about glitter as much as people say it is, at least, not anymore. I threw jails out there because I personally consider them to be the coolest part of FreeBSD. Jamie From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon May 21 22:09:54 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE421065670; Mon, 21 May 2012 22:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from alexsm@gmail.com) Received: from mail-bk0-f54.google.com (mail-bk0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951558FC08; Mon, 21 May 2012 22:09:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by bkvi18 with SMTP id i18so6004465bkv.13 for ; Mon, 21 May 2012 15:09:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=eF/7GQy/QrqeZ3clSzAqpt/tZBCMWOTZEZbeP+SkPuE=; b=VmntAeMgh7NfRli6A1+GXyP0I6NuOpXEOQSc+CxuB0L3aCjZJXItK8ThYKEXc15T/2 6M3c9m3D0FXg/kUAPWFZPTrc6l55ps+v3FGxyIfnWFukYPxH47+LrNBnAtgnmBZ76sNV Ib7ggPTCpwL8H95KPLrbNOp6/7kZYO/xEnthuiPX9OuEFRdEQca9ytpqI6C8bYWXM3Dt vx4VQjydR0ShIsHignTp9dbvfGLEfvE4QgDNIAHmjMU8YbZvzWeX+cYL12WJwQdYAy5b 0zxpXOBMSkNdsoqil+IBjqLV3M7799Tbm82jJVMgkfT90RWZ/v6h0+zifP78RSuyxIiq Orrg== Received: by 10.205.132.13 with SMTP id hs13mr9056420bkc.78.1337638187335; Mon, 21 May 2012 15:09:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.0.67 with HTTP; Mon, 21 May 2012 15:09:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20120521184739.GA22790@mule.podro.com> References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120521184739.GA22790@mule.podro.com> From: Alex Moura Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 19:09:27 -0300 Message-ID: To: Jamie Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Rick Macklem , Vincent Hoffman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Vance Siemens Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 22:09:54 -0000 2012/5/21 Jamie > On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 10:57:33AM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > > No, they're not. VMWare, RHEV (KVM-based) etc. provide features such as > > seamless migration of virtual machines from one physical machine to > > another, automatic restart on a different physical server if one fails > > etc. that simply aren't possible with jails; and there are certain > > things you still can't run reliably / safely in jails - anything that > > relies on SysV IPC, for instance, such as PostgreSQL. > > True about the SysV, and I mostly agree about automatic failover. > > But I think the FreeBSD jail system is still the better model for how I > see these things being used (certainly the better *potential*). But yea, > not "quite" cloud. > > When coupled with something like rsync, they *almost* do the job. And for > a lot > of the current "VPS" applications, they do the job. > > But lets suppose you want proper redundancy and partitioned environments, > so, you put FreeBSD on a cloud, but partition your environments into jails. > > Now you have a cheap, low overhead way of doing logical partitioning and > you > still have a "cloud" with redundancy. > That'd fine if you are not taking in account other characteristics that make clouds, well, clouds, like: on-demand self-service, resource pooling, multi-tenancy and rapid elasticity. > (snip) > I threw jails out there because I personally consider them to be the > coolest > part of FreeBSD. > > Agreed that jails are cool and I would like very much to see a FreeBSD-based cloud implementation. From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 22 01:29:33 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACC31065686 for ; Tue, 22 May 2012 01:29:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brett@lariat.net) Received: from lariat.net (lariat.net [66.62.230.51]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C062D8FC18 for ; Tue, 22 May 2012 01:29:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from WildRover.lariat.net (wagner.lariat.net [66.119.58.131] (may be forged)) by lariat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10358 for ; Mon, 21 May 2012 19:19:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <201205220119.TAA10358@lariat.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 19:18:55 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cc: Subject: ...and the FreeBSD mascot rises from behind the clouds.... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 01:29:33 -0000 http://grist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/kgt3h.jpeg From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 22 21:42:13 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633B81065674; Tue, 22 May 2012 21:42:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rafaelzunigag@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f54.google.com [209.85.215.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EE38FC12; Tue, 22 May 2012 21:42:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: by laai10 with SMTP id i10so6743130laa.13 for ; Tue, 22 May 2012 14:42:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=HpU7vbbzMsJKuFnlWcBk9A4AvKWO2XVZUf+YRgwDvvU=; b=0pV+36sgfvjLgqDJ4zuvVeARgYIvVwQAOrEby+gXGavEzUE1VbjphqNvs6fGLGRY/n DdRfq5HRTuKWDJJnXLHiRL2ss3Dwqup3OuNbp3iO1skqeYCycj05K3LmmBf6Mp/vuzIX YK0yZS9zYsa4apQGj59uvhWuI8BD+2yqNYthabOQyL+gzxeBM6rq5fyuOnikvijWTz/f vJI7POhvzgjSh0saT4gk0U/fgUxS6sg7RqTlBECrsvsFPXPFmTCUb57qyDIjMDoUGKki SgJLiEFQHWuROMjqpseOQwL4HIhXX0PPTZRgoRcQtphlv5KL7+lOVuwGHanX6Xi4OxYk klIw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.104.77 with SMTP id gc13mr6825942lab.31.1337722931580; Tue, 22 May 2012 14:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.100.106 with HTTP; Tue, 22 May 2012 14:42:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FBA15C3.909020@freebsd.org> References: <4FBA15C3.909020@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 16:42:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rafael_Zu=F1iga?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org, Jorge@jobmarketeurope.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: Re: Take a spare three-hour work week in our clinic and get 580 dollars. X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 21:42:13 -0000 Hello Here are my request: Name: Rafael Zu=F1iga Gonzalez Email address: rafaelzunigag@gmail.com City of residence: Mexico, Mexico 2012/5/21 > We invite you to work in the remote assistant position. > > This work takes 2-3 hours per week and requires absolutely no investment. > The essence of this work for incoming client requests in your city. > The starting salary is about 2500 EUR per month + bonuses. > > You get paid your salary every 2 weeks and your bonuses after fulfilling > each task! > > We guarantee work for everyone. But we accept applications this week only= ! > Therefore, you should write a request right now. And you will start > earning money, starting from next week. > > Please indicate in the request: > Your name: > Your email address: > City of residence: > > Please send the request to my email Jorge@jobmarketeurope.com and I will > answer you personally as soon as possible > > Sincerely, > Jorge Clements > > ______________________________**_________________ > freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/**mailman/listinfo/freebsd-**mobile > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-mobile-unsubscribe@**freebsd.or= g > " > From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed May 23 15:20:30 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4CC106566C; Wed, 23 May 2012 15:20:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f54.google.com (mail-pz0-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4130F8FC14; Wed, 23 May 2012 15:20:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dadv36 with SMTP id v36so10707876dad.13 for ; Wed, 23 May 2012 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9wR34LBXUMcS4gjyPnqVpp4boxSKor6NUIDdPbmhsWU=; b=GZrazdZGKLVFCbJbkdrsR/1/xlK6akd3lRZfS3C0WUIuYD3BZV0h2/o5BMiPSoUwF3 CU461jQ3qt7VQotUS2QjwBHBdNhPl/Q+PO5tp/MAtfohw1bB7k7cy2T6lKRkx+j/HvdN kLSDtQx+vU0B4r+AYWcfCyb0QrPTyn17wK1xdgR2pSiHTUO+JEB9WJld2GcO2Lp0F80F piyXXT+9d7qlkGgapUFy16hm0jKA+5TNTlbSnvxbhOColj+apTw62x3SrEvEGlsSy781 8QDv/04R3ej8thW+ZjcZ7TMRf1NgMvjTdYgcJsyCJ/wLTt7gXxKCoNGAF5mDu/t/6swT vF0w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.223.167 with SMTP id qv7mr11034191pbc.127.1337786429841; Wed, 23 May 2012 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.203.2 with HTTP; Wed, 23 May 2012 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20120520170702.GY22790@mule.podro.com> <1120936952.633013.1337546532026.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <20120521035323.GZ22790@mule.podro.com> <868vglud1e.fsf@ds4.des.no> <20120521184739.GA22790@mule.podro.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 08:20:29 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: h4D6mRbrVuQqHYaui9kbGbRwjq0 Message-ID: From: Adrian Chadd To: Alex Moura Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Jamie , Rick Macklem , Vincent Hoffman , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav , Vance Siemens Subject: Re: FreeBSD 10 prognostication... X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 15:20:30 -0000 .. then: * test out pkgng on FreeBSD-9.x and provide as much feedback as you can; * help test out massive deployment, upgrade and auditing scenarios - exactly the kinds of things which cloud using people need. Installing 10000 boxes is difficult. Auditing, upgrading and integrating services on 10,000 boxes.. much more difficult. * help out with the cloud provision-y service things that FreeBSD is missing - for example, get the vmware vmdk installer stuff be part of the install/release system - so people _can_ easily build FreeBSD VMDK's as appliance/cloud images. * integrate it with Puppet and other configuration/monitoring/management frameworks. Upgrade that integration to whatever counts as Tier-1 in those projects. I bet they focus on Linux only. There's a whole lot of useful work that doesn't at all leave the userland. If you'd like to see FreeBSD in "the cloud", these are the things you need to address. Adrian From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 24 19:41:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A4A106564A for ; Thu, 24 May 2012 19:41:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@ttel.com) Received: from mail-gg0-f182.google.com (mail-gg0-f182.google.com [209.85.161.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC4DE8FC15 for ; Thu, 24 May 2012 19:41:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ggnm2 with SMTP id m2so217325ggn.13 for ; Thu, 24 May 2012 12:41:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date :message-id:to:mime-version:x-mailer:x-gm-message-state; bh=0NRrnxMvHiQ+6V9hQ9EjNDMjya3Wp+ZwidyYF1r592A=; b=cXDvxM3Af0yn+q25sIM0SDRi5sR5g0+YsMKKYY7eC26u6C3uuO2r8UfzocAvTKq2pJ ztsbW13Fak+4WdxqJHQePl9/yg2nWto0RcH8OHpnFnIL1H1QCEF5SuLt1WMQkG/p9zE1 hSFzGLuS5FR/tbMj4ISz51gi69p+EUtxxCN5DtU3QzTl1NHcQF4Zr78/+e9dlrk0ypUl FQi0wqi2uCp9g5Lwk9peiWIAttBsNXq+vWrgSW4+KAk/26eZzRXdjHU/O7Lax2dSzs60 ofg5X3RgdQoKVGlx+W6yjObLy+Q49o6lf1P/jV0oQ0EbVyNtyd+0qD7ivuN+mr3D6W/M 1Vsw== Received: by 10.60.0.193 with SMTP id 1mr575357oeg.39.1337888502720; Thu, 24 May 2012 12:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.7.139] (r74-193-70-198.pfvlcmta01.grtntx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net. [74.193.70.198]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jl3sm242898obb.4.2012.05.24.12.41.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 24 May 2012 12:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Eric Anderson From: Eric Anderson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:41:41 -0500 Message-Id: <4E710C01-964E-4603-A6D7-FC981DF3BACD@freebsd.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQncE2GbdYhEdD4ZZJmNgfAd7hNsM22GpRH/oXf/bcjm8a60NxBdX5OaDgCfBlAF7mm6SUbw Subject: FreeBSD monitoring X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 19:41:50 -0000 Hey All, We've been happily using FreeBSD for a while at CopperEgg, and we got = excited about the recent stuff going on in the latest status report (yay = growable filesystems!). =20 Then I got to thinking (oh no not that!) - we should do something cool = for the people that work so hard to make FreeBSD awesome. We thought = about lots of stuff, and decided we would give away our service for = FreeBSD contributors. We do server monitoring (like = rrdtool+collectd+top but without the tedious parts), so we're going to = let you use it all you want. Might come in handy this summer while = building cool GSoC stuff, or working on projects, or whatever. So, here's the deal: - use all you want (personal systems only) - free! Only restriction is you need an @freebsd.org email address when you sign = up so we know you are legit. http://copperegg.com/freebsd/ Of course feel free to pass it around or whatever as I am not going to = double post it. Eric From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu May 24 19:59:41 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9461065672; Thu, 24 May 2012 19:59:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: from keltia.net (centre.keltia.net [IPv6:2a01:240:fe5c::41]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911438FC0C; Thu, 24 May 2012 19:59:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lonrach.local (unknown [IPv6:2a01:e34:ee87:4a00:d69a:20ff:fed0:3a83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: roberto) by keltia.net (Postfix/TLS) with ESMTPSA id 96C0612B85; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:59:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 22:00:47 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: Eric Anderson Message-ID: <20120524200046.GB15349@lonrach.local> References: <4E710C01-964E-4603-A6D7-FC981DF3BACD@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4E710C01-964E-4603-A6D7-FC981DF3BACD@freebsd.org> X-Operating-System: MacOS X / MBP 4,1 - FreeBSD 8.0 / T3500-E5520 Nehalem User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD monitoring X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 19:59:41 -0000 According to Eric Anderson: > So, here's the deal: > - use all you want (personal systems only) > - free! Thanks a lot! > Only restriction is you need an @freebsd.org email address when you sign up so we know you are legit. > > http://copperegg.com/freebsd/ Can't seem to be able to complete the registration though right now. roberto@freebsd.org -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr In memoriam to Ondine : http://ondine.keltia.net/