From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 17:42:29 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C47AC84E6 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66A92337 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:42:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id e6so25720923vkh.2 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 09:42:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=DEPZlsBInU/y/DK6K1Fm8o/EcLSgSRVzMzwJ0nYvncI=; b=c8emhi1pqMVsUVwxwKTeWZNrsjD9PrUARiSlaNLneRt8gJ8N130tsw2CRtvE0Ss/lF 64qFkRwNQUm9boDSpS0x4M6f4nxN8Cp+q0O5c3V73oENiR2fs5hLKWokSG3SNw7busEM F9gjOan1kVQPefsXSat5U3qkqB3JLUTWizeoIv/6PMjyJRs6q5sdA/0FPBQI9MFPyM6e ptF/meLoBLui0irfXQZyQLK+spGaet/Bl1Ga7ucl++RUqp6IG5JhOM4OKQEFmLyzmaYn 6qUa7Cpy6PiZRXA18zQ11M9qlBtGCYL2wBv+Xnxq6N6oIl23gp6TbAopVHAKg26n6w2m yatw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:date:message-id:subject:from :to; bh=DEPZlsBInU/y/DK6K1Fm8o/EcLSgSRVzMzwJ0nYvncI=; b=htzMp5+F9v5uDcm13Vt4rOphWfwyvNnt6jrS34s4H2otNiMWTaeFLAHx+8xeYtB+hC ESEgH9eHzOU4EcAhrrGcOR0+WyRB7tUepGbC39WdzKCTyB0Bz61uXfQCacc8OvVGEkFF OijjyE6JxM4ovtSzCP7hmHnrL/udYT8d7oBSHYlqljDds60010x7ZmFmVHkBwqBwfh3/ AxBHoHZAwzjAaJUQ7r3H1TuXL1v9SHBYnk5heWCEOh/YVCpusHLzJK7hh1tTJtxBA1CB 0ssw1Cj86CgJYM9J3uPxiQTVuvXY4/dTpARjXufheKkaot+XKrdA1abg/8BbDTaQiGfD M/HA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJK308IYwJ3sIAFl8HxIaLTUs/c5Pi189Bjt4nZsQB1gOqghC5a+mVOH5XKTM+NsXmVzp/dAhrtXgstNiQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.128.15 with SMTP id b15mr27101593vkd.128.1457458948381; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 09:42:28 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 09:42:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:42:28 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ou_AAJQUiEhXsnIeDxxM6JsbfAU Message-ID: Subject: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:42:29 -0000 I'm looking at working on a new project that will use the FreeBSD kernel. I would attempt to embed the kernel on a very small NXP Kinetis chip. I've previously done this using a Linux kernel but also had DDR memory attached to the chip. This project would not have a DDR chip attached. So a couple of questions. 1 - What is the smallest size I could configure the FreeBSD kernel out of the box? Could I get the size to be less than 10MB, 5MB, 2MB, or etc.? I did a little bit of research on the PicoBSD and NanoBSD but that still seem to be targeted to a little bit bigger chip than I have available. Thanks for any insight/help. Also, if you response, please include me on the CC line as I'm not a member of the freebsd-embedded alias. Thanks again! -brad walker From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 18:42:32 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B13AC78CB for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86EEAA19 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:42:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-ig0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id ig19so59043534igb.0 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 10:42:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=QxDoskg4qJO4AvwO4yLH2BKEMgi+hmwu/Of6bE99ccM=; b=qHVonhVfRLwLor9OEx1idpNzkPsxEwMAz1zXrLVlZ3TfzpdC3YIbKDE1WnB5t7Yf+N xrVBW8BEX7vgFTmUsUByCfwzt0cJmY1CI2Rl8U7QAOy7qJMWueUVLAVg8Fj3ZBvdQZZK ABiXbT31WlxKofps8TLrYkj3NWE8GB2TEHf8FtPEfm2IR6fBVzsF64vfdoZFkOpZ/esK wbhUZ00MOsjmCBe+pBRVnMx0dd00OWr7JpNDzrC/HScNe6OqaY0IL3z3I6yp21Al0+JY 71xJvixfK2BQ9CwphGl6rjjH46fXpbLzq9+IwQcYSpg7bmbzEOVWGLP7e8f7oYhqk2IM eQeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=QxDoskg4qJO4AvwO4yLH2BKEMgi+hmwu/Of6bE99ccM=; b=LVwM0EVCbt2P/8pnucIllUwEbXCv+i66C4pIyUAwJByyb3e248DqghsEG5wzfef/w0 6hz0QFIlmGUd2umCsyagpE4rQwB+Ijndctz/eXgRPg/7SQ7fbl61Eyo8ofbvK6TFnnOi /M30aYRQjWzfgTW7UrEZl8qYxwbbso7+7lYXcLN0rbvch7IQ/gQRFk/fWpC7rbHCTFBE a447fORLHBKmmlX5UXzd5ffJtH0ZYiB6d+glfQZ7dF1J6bmszUWFyydJg78pzUoJB72w w4R8T9Cli5DgV7nlaUGhqBm83XsEy+2LdSvWAREjJS9ROf0xOLHlZYLzoFgVYpQ6p3/q mIkg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJ9UAFg5YSVgxWnbO8inLUm+HuiAcyg+jjTcIY9BSpM1kqVO6lzoY99dLFBswKRDxAIU5bGFs3VD6QhXA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.50.134 with SMTP id c6mr19305722igo.57.1457462551756; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 10:42:31 -0800 (PST) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.36.65.167 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:42:31 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [75.144.23.245] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 11:42:31 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: y1jxEt3fYXjxe0ZdrMZVNBsM77Q Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Warner Losh To: Brad Walker Cc: "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 18:42:32 -0000 On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Brad Walker wrote: > I'm looking at working on a new project that will use the FreeBSD kernel. I > would attempt to embed the kernel on a very small NXP Kinetis chip. I've > previously done this using a Linux kernel but also had DDR memory attached > to the chip. This project would not have a DDR chip attached. > > So a couple of questions. 1 - What is the smallest size I could configure > the FreeBSD kernel out of the box? Could I get the size to be less than > 10MB, 5MB, 2MB, or etc.? > I've managed to get this down to about 2MB or a bit smaller. Compressed this can be a little smaller. It takes a fair amount of work, but it can be done. > I did a little bit of research on the PicoBSD and NanoBSD but that still > seem to be targeted to a little bit bigger chip than I have available. > How big a chip do you have? NanoBSD currently needs at least 64MB (and ideally 128MB) of storage. PicoBSD can be a bit smaller. Warner > Thanks for any insight/help. Also, if you response, please include me on > the CC line as I'm not a member of the freebsd-embedded alias. > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 21:32:34 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67336A13208 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:32:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20FC6686 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:32:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id k1so33568578vkb.0 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:32:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=fxKUIQ3kBlK/EdW32AauteYdbjws9J6qTwrR8Up3Ays=; b=Bc9XS2RnEG21OQAXIBBsF/I8VgsOTLD9QreiXb5oleRY3hGTVxclZV956MXunW26be LNsTTMoZ5WV4QvHsGijIKIzmDRKSvMfA25piJ5y+EKKR74PJxHoQlJh2KOcG0gxOb6wS QM7rQPC0YRUTiOnZ2or+OM7l6VYwzrUVJ9DTxrI0DyJy0lX08kF1GSpdKWabbU41d02s Du0i/wzC938BWUvXuxeqlNkYy8WGNuL9diQZvKAetdoCuQiQipkzEYqeOpMJxWgpgdBa wV/Gby+0Yw3WV5pFqMSM0hbQkw9h5/jWmfGQzdbJYOePZHxCZLH/YM7JtCOfeTtNMBBt GGmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=fxKUIQ3kBlK/EdW32AauteYdbjws9J6qTwrR8Up3Ays=; b=dUCelqZLuy6PLBq3MxpYE86bcmqbFmMwNM2i9BSPNWWNP6owciwOI2A3QAsMn0WxeE 0lG4ZKosg8Lo9bSjPLPySTTKrGIkBIuWN3ZWcORUv77zNLvynJtpqTtvrb/VER32ttPA 8q9+m4BhCyWDSR0R8SjJQxsQNnncA1YmEFg/VBT8mhbnQwLtMcOKSadR/KoJoo92RFe6 fy7vZNRWR08WwSOaL82vZUxAD0naardtVLk3UqNeX06IHRsUoICf1kjGh9QED7LWTBrU n9y180Fbba2B3OvK7taeKL4iJSKImeMJj0fhgxeZwTBThtpXb1XzfgDidjIyIsgHOlZB Jk7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIqchTPa+/zjVXLR27x3qUTb+NSJ8SsX0WmLA1b7/4GOdbjzxOx5ac6oACraCvT19kVkSb1w/HA9mebgw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.128.15 with SMTP id b15mr28110168vkd.128.1457472753165; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:32:33 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: yg2Vqafdd8_g-THkea3LMkelDFI Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 21:32:34 -0000 On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Brad Walker wrote: > >> I'm looking at working on a new project that will use the FreeBSD kernel. >> I >> would attempt to embed the kernel on a very small NXP Kinetis chip. I've >> previously done this using a Linux kernel but also had DDR memory attached >> to the chip. This project would not have a DDR chip attached. >> >> So a couple of questions. 1 - What is the smallest size I could configure >> the FreeBSD kernel out of the box? Could I get the size to be less than >> 10MB, 5MB, 2MB, or etc.? >> > > I've managed to get this down to about 2MB or a bit smaller. Compressed > this can be a little smaller. It takes a fair amount of work, but it can be > done. > > That's great.. Was this out of the box tuning? > > I did a little bit of research on the PicoBSD and NanoBSD but that still >> seem to be targeted to a little bit bigger chip than I have available. >> > > How big a chip do you have? NanoBSD currently needs at least > 64MB (and ideally 128MB) of storage. PicoBSD can be a bit smaller. > I have 2MB on-chip flash and 512KB of SRAM. There is an external flash that will be attached. What I'm currently thinking is that I would like to boot into BusyBox verses multi-user.. One question that I'm curious about. All the work that I do on this, or you've done in the past, how does it get integrated into the mainline build. -brad w. From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 21:48:02 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A250A13FBD for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:48:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from pmta2.delivery6.ore.mailhop.org (pmta2.delivery6.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.129.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4DE71F5 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:48:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-User: aa6fbe39-e577-11e5-8de6-958346fd02ba X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 73.34.117.227 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [73.34.117.227]) by outbound2.ore.mailhop.org (Halon Mail Gateway) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:49:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTP id u28Lls8N004949; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:47:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Ian Lepore To: Brad Walker , Warner Losh Cc: "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 14:47:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.16.5 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 21:48:02 -0000 On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 14:32 -0700, Brad Walker wrote: > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Brad Walker > > wrote: > > > > > I'm looking at working on a new project that will use the FreeBSD > > > kernel. > > > I > > > would attempt to embed the kernel on a very small NXP Kinetis > > > chip. I've > > > previously done this using a Linux kernel but also had DDR memory > > > attached > > > to the chip. This project would not have a DDR chip attached. > > > > > > So a couple of questions. 1 - What is the smallest size I could > > > configure > > > the FreeBSD kernel out of the box? Could I get the size to be > > > less than > > > 10MB, 5MB, 2MB, or etc.? > > > > > > > I've managed to get this down to about 2MB or a bit smaller. > > Compressed > > this can be a little smaller. It takes a fair amount of work, but > > it can be > > done. > > > > > > That's great.. Was this out of the box tuning? > > > > > > I did a little bit of research on the PicoBSD and NanoBSD but that > > still > > > seem to be targeted to a little bit bigger chip than I have > > > available. > > > > > > > How big a chip do you have? NanoBSD currently needs at least > > 64MB (and ideally 128MB) of storage. PicoBSD can be a bit smaller. > > > > I have 2MB on-chip flash and 512KB of SRAM. There is an external > flash that > will be attached. What I'm currently thinking is that I would like to > boot > into BusyBox verses multi-user.. > > One question that I'm curious about. All the work that I do on this, > or > you've done in the past, how does it get integrated into the mainline > build. Wait a sec here... NXP Kinetis is ARM Cortex-M, and that means no MMU, right? No MMU means no freebsd running on it. -- Ian From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 21:56:23 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43504AC7616 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:56:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0DD4915; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:56:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id e185so34174944vkb.1; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=FRAV7DWNSGy24zxgLeFZQV1hBfMJw6KEZVmkYgTPSEo=; b=fv0c69h8L56LzlnZd/UB23f3b32nMV052NAU+/VPkEv/TE4cqwzKoEBW8iGDd9N8Y9 Q63LZSjfB3N7tYD+Fz0FsK5Qxr8r4aTjwmlJra6fgrZDdFNWTFA8XPHFI1FdGshPykTs 1xGIkqif91ZxYGI1mO8u0VXPNJ4hZkLwOdcwxko7H18Iwi55kSKqJIo+C5Alnb+kZUNE N3QUeyXpOv2dC0B+gniXdCD4db0+99OAZJ6RnkkKFqxrJFenfqh5ahJP0fg0cgiX8y/J Ja3eAdTzMsr0v4c1YX0OrgZl55p97SG1XTlCtL/W19Y8Q9nEid0zZN2URs7mweac5Uns nj9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=FRAV7DWNSGy24zxgLeFZQV1hBfMJw6KEZVmkYgTPSEo=; b=fkkrtUTVkKJ5+xH8Tptw8mYGObHlKKZWvbSr1rMW2nnF/m3v9yg5geSZjz0JS+pB8a e0bDnBX4e9A/SGRkq9VcU6DqOVKNhDB3Mn/oDRvtraCj07tXr913lzdjLbF++pHbv/RK H3ZnnIQyiwnvV3bIGT53p7wnHIoVHpUvkKpGUL6FKtkeN0qmYJWHEHlxUgn+CfOH4SqY ianA0vF7uR+eafUC0AVgNyR4SFkDw4zMf/jfuLIAy8WEPghPJELqGOp9oDTsXt1eOMGr C7xfFqrcB3kdvvMteOsMFGeHgvzYtPhS7pewCtqaWCbzxdoO9Q6pCC/z8lheSbAuKIJW 0mIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJL9IDAzSsW+uobb7MkPPDScPz2T6avEWHDGyLBa82FszWaHdKrjzhDQxzKkfnWL8WnSCaR9OVcBlgMngQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.52.73 with SMTP id b70mr24410401vka.16.1457474182019; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:56:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 13:56:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:56:21 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: YOcjIsLcVXgsuXyTjIaZJMxbVJQ Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Ian Lepore Cc: Warner Losh , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 21:56:23 -0000 Correct. But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet OR no amount of engineering could make it work? For example, I'm pretty well versed in the Solaris kernel stuff and there is really no amount of engineering that could make it work in a non-MMU environment.. I was thinking, at least in my mind, is that if Linux can do it certainly FreeBSD could if the work was done. Am I incorrect? -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Ian Lepore wrote: > On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 14:32 -0700, Brad Walker wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Brad Walker > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I'm looking at working on a new project that will use the FreeBSD > > > > kernel. > > > > I > > > > would attempt to embed the kernel on a very small NXP Kinetis > > > > chip. I've > > > > previously done this using a Linux kernel but also had DDR memory > > > > attached > > > > to the chip. This project would not have a DDR chip attached. > > > > > > > > So a couple of questions. 1 - What is the smallest size I could > > > > configure > > > > the FreeBSD kernel out of the box? Could I get the size to be > > > > less than > > > > 10MB, 5MB, 2MB, or etc.? > > > > > > > > > > I've managed to get this down to about 2MB or a bit smaller. > > > Compressed > > > this can be a little smaller. It takes a fair amount of work, but > > > it can be > > > done. > > > > > > > > > > That's great.. Was this out of the box tuning? > > > > > > > > > > I did a little bit of research on the PicoBSD and NanoBSD but that > > > still > > > > seem to be targeted to a little bit bigger chip than I have > > > > available. > > > > > > > > > > How big a chip do you have? NanoBSD currently needs at least > > > 64MB (and ideally 128MB) of storage. PicoBSD can be a bit smaller. > > > > > > > I have 2MB on-chip flash and 512KB of SRAM. There is an external > > flash that > > will be attached. What I'm currently thinking is that I would like to > > boot > > into BusyBox verses multi-user.. > > > > One question that I'm curious about. All the work that I do on this, > > or > > you've done in the past, how does it get integrated into the mainline > > build. > > Wait a sec here... NXP Kinetis is ARM Cortex-M, and that means no MMU, > right? No MMU means no freebsd running on it. > > -- Ian > > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 22:31:48 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B911BAC8417 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:31:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mah@jump-ing.de) Received: from mail.ud03.udmedia.de (ud03.udmedia.de [194.117.254.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "root.udmedia.de", Issuer "StartCom Class 3 Primary Intermediate Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2857BD2A for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:31:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mah@jump-ing.de) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=mail.ud03.udmedia.de; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=beta; bh= iRqFTN4dXT+KHXmvY4c4DNMQYW/91jA3dS3lPpXeR2k=; b=M+EN+fvZC8H0cRlS aRF1kOKLCZQzggW0ZdUXJbQS0jsveAfWjA3e7Sbrd8KRYTO2kLvQEG9WZ/FoC/KQ R8UCHsTm73LNVWO/PQxc7bjryGZDFhj55wYnT0PvYR95u+2ixs35uwHJ2BcnmIwI N1Gh2a/VKhClxMITd0Ts+8IWI0A= Received: (qmail 29185 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2016 23:25:03 +0100 Received: from hsi-kbw-37-209-85-196.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de (HELO ?10.0.0.102?) (ud03?291p1@37.209.85.196) by mail.ud03.udmedia.de with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 encrypted, authenticated); 8 Mar 2016 23:25:03 +0100 Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. To: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> From: Markus Hitter X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:25:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 22:31:48 -0000 Am 08.03.2016 um 22:56 schrieb Brad Walker: > But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet OR no > amount of engineering could make it work? If I recall correctly from some 25 years ago, memory address mapping (which is what a MMU does) is mandatory for preemtive multitasking. An i286 can't run a Unix-like OS either. In 2008 I tried to get FreeBSD down to its minimum, too. The success post is about all what's left today: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-embedded/2008-October/000604.html The task to get there is simple and straightforward, but time consuming: go step by step through the kernel configuration to disable whatever you can spare. Configure, build, try, repeat. If you need a small entire system, do the same for packages and every single file you copy into your system image. Markus -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 22:51:20 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6725AC8A7B for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91B459E1 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:51:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ig0-x233.google.com with SMTP id vs8so59679938igb.1 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 14:51:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=kwmlP650L3vXN7mVU5zZOcf0PZAyf2UZW1gi1hPvQ20=; b=fEMNl+6+QqUeK3Yg9+mjoB8PDKjBvQPzRr3TvEjJYv3TSH4P4uWTNqlH5L3Bzt5K5n 7GPsQVF9bywfB7qaxamOZkc6tv7PscoH8WBRzQ3uGpTZlFbvWc8BSinQ60RR69kQ6FfB awsCUca1jhcPAFBCalcqFLIe/NkiLWJdM5NZ0yAC5sv6oyHcVDjP7Bz+qIPp2tle2hi6 eVbXY+7HUGyEQgJoXItLWHK7d/LYL/HMPCAQ2hVDjTkQIsjwxMDEflbtkEZUE3CMWYPx ehm2sL8uLSaG4umw6TWisjK8A46M1IBWNtFvrpkb/F+dwronPmwN1DZDHbd4KHbiVPWh /gAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=kwmlP650L3vXN7mVU5zZOcf0PZAyf2UZW1gi1hPvQ20=; b=TOzXK+JT18GbIV6iljJh1IRJHVcziMRGh18srOby6/WrWNFwLYIjUXe2UVFb2XWRLZ wWCRJsuJxT0N+XNEs8MaCYnZsjZXaNf5JPZZbFSp9ckbnBtaYF20vKE9zkw1QLuptoPl Ry2DPOfkZdLxA89Wda5jBhpaXue4X1vELbZtxKQan8vkNjd43LjeNOWcLZ4etOeA7ao2 R3Hv+cIb/u43Gj4RzPhgoZrYllTEo/UGbhS1uU/wl7ZM9H3a6hpZnjHmjXWv+0dPlJUR OY3n8pGQKl+tDBQ467T5Kij37TY80c2vDJnyRvAaDUwMtAGAMIt7+MIRQm9Nm0Wt5Z9X 4lEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLdboMlHcTAin0Bm+nn3zKj6RAWYOhah5BmgoF5lQj4PEo8cZl1AjALEpxy8xoKzCB+1TVxF0vdyp3Cxw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.78.200 with SMTP id d8mr19996394igx.61.1457477479901; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 14:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.14.19 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:51:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 14:51:19 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Adrian Chadd To: Markus Hitter Cc: "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 22:51:20 -0000 ... you likely could get a 286 to run something UNIX-y, but you'd be limited to 16MB segments.. -a From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 23:09:41 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42269AC71F1 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:09:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeclark2006@aim.com) Received: from omr-m008e.mx.aol.com (omr-m008e.mx.aol.com [204.29.186.7]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03482280 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:09:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeclark2006@aim.com) Received: from mtaout-maa02.mx.aol.com (mtaout-maa02.mx.aol.com [172.26.222.142]) by omr-m008e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 911AE38000BB; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.0.224] (datron9.dtwc.com [207.137.9.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-maa02.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 84CD938000087; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:09:33 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: John Clark In-Reply-To: <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:09:30 -0800 Cc: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <938133EE-CCEE-4F08-BB78-8227D9D0C6EC@aim.com> References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> To: Markus Hitter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aim.com; s=20150623; t=1457478574; bh=6WTnfrTciNuEVQG0TXEVFV9wAbp8yPqc6BnLFf/Jb90=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=X9O1psUbE6IT9pjr7C3IXpLGFlERA5grzK+Yq1EUcUU1BS6GwJt5BN6uAea/GGkWe KZxGPYjVRKcAUrfUgjchjdnfFYRIWRWg2b/X2Gns9HePU6AG9P1dntXCeeSrHdzgZe k2w3pGeRcKknvFRPLS55+tAUjXglOdy1X6oFKEEI= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1ade8e56df5bad6af6 X-AOL-IP: 207.137.9.194 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:09:41 -0000 Not to barge in to your discussion=85 but yes there were Unix variants = that worked on the 286. Xenix was one such OS. Xenix being Microsoft=92s = idea of avoiding the Unix name=85 Originally Xenix ran on PDP-11, and was ported to other machines that = have long passed into the oblivion of technological Hell. As for =91preemetive multitasking=85 of course one can run a preemptive = scheduler on almost any CPU that has a clock interrupt. I wrote one for the 286 based on the kernel described in Douglas Comer=92s= =93Xinu=94 book. Products with that hack where produced for about 8 years=85 in the = early-mid-80s. I wrote it such that it would run in a DOS box and allow = for machine control of various robotic systems for industrial inspection = machines. In any case one can develop a multitasking kernel to run in a non-MMU = based system=85 just lends itself to crapping out on the least = provocation=85 What an MMU provides is hardware =91address translation=92 such that the = application can run in an =91virtual absolute=92 addressing space, have memory protection such that errant code can=92t clobber other tasks = or the kernel, and also given appropriate devices, have =91swapping=92 for larger than real memory applications. The 286 =91segment=92 registers gave a bit of =91translation=92 = capability in that one could address relative to the segment registers, = and so, code and data could be place in available member and context = switched would update the segment registers. The segment registers were a crappy way of accessing memory if one had = long linear arrays of data to process=85 such as image processing=85 = which happened to be the application of my work at the time=85 And one could always implement an external MMU which was popular with = the Motorola M68K which was sort of the contemporary alternative to the = Intel x86 line. John Clark. On Mar 8, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: > Am 08.03.2016 um 22:56 schrieb Brad Walker: >> But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet OR = no >> amount of engineering could make it work? >=20 > If I recall correctly from some 25 years ago, memory address mapping > (which is what a MMU does) is mandatory for preemtive multitasking. An > i286 can't run a Unix-like OS either. >=20 >=20 > In 2008 I tried to get FreeBSD down to its minimum, too. The success > post is about all what's left today: >=20 > = https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-embedded/2008-October/000604.h= tml >=20 > The task to get there is simple and straightforward, but time = consuming: > go step by step through the kernel configuration to disable whatever = you > can spare. Configure, build, try, repeat. If you need a small entire > system, do the same for packages and every single file you copy into > your system image. >=20 >=20 > Markus >=20 > --=20 > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Dipl. Ing. (FH) Markus Hitter > http://www.jump-ing.de/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-embedded > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-embedded-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 23:14:57 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB41AAC74B8 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org (outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.247.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90DD68D5 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:14:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-User: a94924a9-e583-11e5-8dfb-c75234cc769e X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 73.34.117.227 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [73.34.117.227]) by outbound1.ore.mailhop.org (Halon Mail Gateway) with ESMTPSA; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:15:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTP id u28NEn0G005120; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 16:14:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1457478889.1406.50.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Ian Lepore To: John Clark , Markus Hitter Cc: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:14:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: <938133EE-CCEE-4F08-BB78-8227D9D0C6EC@aim.com> References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> <938133EE-CCEE-4F08-BB78-8227D9D0C6EC@aim.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.16.5 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:14:57 -0000 Jeez, really? This thread is going to be hijacked to discuss the theoretical possiblity of running on 40 year old hardware? Unbelievable. -- Ian On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 15:09 -0800, John Clark via freebsd-embedded wrote: > Not to barge in to your discussion… but yes there were Unix variants > that worked on the 286. Xenix was one such OS. Xenix being > Microsoft’s idea of avoiding the Unix name… > > Originally Xenix ran on PDP-11, and was ported to other machines that > have long passed into the oblivion of technological Hell. > > As for ‘preemetive multitasking… of course one can run a preemptive > scheduler on almost any CPU that has a clock interrupt. > > I wrote one for the 286 based on the kernel described in Douglas > Comer’s “Xinu” book. > > Products with that hack where produced for about 8 years… in the > early-mid-80s. I wrote it such that it would run in a DOS box and > allow for machine control of various robotic systems for industrial > inspection machines. > > In any case one can develop a multitasking kernel to run in a non-MMU > based system… just lends itself to crapping out on the least > provocation… > > What an MMU provides is hardware ‘address translation’ such that the > application can run in an ‘virtual absolute’ addressing space, > have memory protection such that errant code can’t clobber other > tasks or the kernel, and also given appropriate devices, > have ‘swapping’ for larger than real memory applications. > > The 286 ‘segment’ registers gave a bit of ‘translation’ capability in > that one could address relative to the segment registers, and so, > code and data could be place in available member and context switched > would update the segment registers. > > The segment registers were a crappy way of accessing memory if one > had long linear arrays of data to process… such as image processing… > which happened to be the application of my work at the time… > > And one could always implement an external MMU which was popular with > the Motorola M68K which was sort of the contemporary alternative to > the Intel x86 line. > > John Clark. > > On Mar 8, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: > > > Am 08.03.2016 um 22:56 schrieb Brad Walker: > > > But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet > > > OR no > > > amount of engineering could make it work? > > > > If I recall correctly from some 25 years ago, memory address > > mapping > > (which is what a MMU does) is mandatory for preemtive multitasking. > > An > > i286 can't run a Unix-like OS either. > > > > > > In 2008 I tried to get FreeBSD down to its minimum, too. The > > success > > post is about all what's left today: > > > > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-embedded/2008-October/0 > > 00604.html > > > > The task to get there is simple and straightforward, but time > > consuming: > > go step by step through the kernel configuration to disable > > whatever you > > can spare. Configure, build, try, repeat. If you need a small > > entire > > system, do the same for packages and every single file you copy > > into > > your system image. > > > > > > Markus > > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 23:23:32 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D73AC77A3 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:23:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeclark2006@aim.com) Received: from omr-m007e.mx.aol.com (omr-m007e.mx.aol.com [204.29.186.9]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35464B98 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:23:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeclark2006@aim.com) Received: from mtaout-mcd01.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mcd01.mx.aol.com [172.26.223.205]) by omr-m007e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 85FC938000AF; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.0.224] (datron9.dtwc.com [207.137.9.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-mcd01.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 2FA4538000081; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:23:28 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: John Clark In-Reply-To: <1457478889.1406.50.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:23:28 -0800 Cc: Markus Hitter , freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <06F91A0C-648B-49B2-88C1-86FDD5D8B30F@aim.com> References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> <56DF513E.9000405@jump-ing.de> <938133EE-CCEE-4F08-BB78-8227D9D0C6EC@aim.com> <1457478889.1406.50.camel@freebsd.org> To: Ian Lepore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aim.com; s=20150623; t=1457479410; bh=bX7KsylWUP7YqNSE3Jn/Q8nZiX5rdsbT+JvFqLgA+TI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=MgdG557ixFq14TnOgXpMeNQiEZlHhS5niMfTxWC+QWYXA6r3faEU6j9SG0XB9ardR 8+sQKjd6/HoU+ynsEMdJ3Fxdb99AI/RJ6r7M26smlxR/Iuj77W74dtrSsE4ozzqzmO 9CaqiuxjualOr9CIAvSV/M3QuSKUxotxiq8fYvT4= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1adfcd56df5ef01da1 X-AOL-IP: 207.137.9.194 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:23:32 -0000 On Mar 8, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Ian Lepore wrote: > Jeez, really? This thread is going to be hijacked to discuss the > theoretical possiblity of running on 40 year old hardware? >=20 > Unbelievable. >=20 > =97 Ian Some one trying to run something like FreeBSD on a non-MMU processor, is = going =85 40 years back in time(technically the 286 is a 35 or so year = old design=85)=85 Demand the project has at least a serviceable MMU=85 A few years ago, the boss got the big idea to use an 8051 based = processor board for a system controller unit=85 ugh=85 I started my career using the 8048 and the =91graduated=92 to the 8051=85 = then moved to a different company to work on =91real=92 machines=85 = PDP-11s=85 In way the system controller was an not so pleasant walk down memory = lane=85 John Clark. >=20 > On Tue, 2016-03-08 at 15:09 -0800, John Clark via freebsd-embedded > wrote: >> Not to barge in to your discussion=85 but yes there were Unix = variants >> that worked on the 286. Xenix was one such OS. Xenix being >> Microsoft=92s idea of avoiding the Unix name=85 >>=20 >> Originally Xenix ran on PDP-11, and was ported to other machines that >> have long passed into the oblivion of technological Hell. >>=20 >> As for =91preemetive multitasking=85 of course one can run a = preemptive >> scheduler on almost any CPU that has a clock interrupt. >>=20 >> I wrote one for the 286 based on the kernel described in Douglas >> Comer=92s =93Xinu=94 book. >>=20 >> Products with that hack where produced for about 8 years=85 in the >> early-mid-80s. I wrote it such that it would run in a DOS box and >> allow for machine control of various robotic systems for industrial >> inspection machines. >>=20 >> In any case one can develop a multitasking kernel to run in a non-MMU >> based system=85 just lends itself to crapping out on the least >> provocation=85 >>=20 >> What an MMU provides is hardware =91address translation=92 such that = the >> application can run in an =91virtual absolute=92 addressing space, >> have memory protection such that errant code can=92t clobber other >> tasks or the kernel, and also given appropriate devices, >> have =91swapping=92 for larger than real memory applications. >>=20 >> The 286 =91segment=92 registers gave a bit of =91translation=92 = capability in >> that one could address relative to the segment registers, and so, >> code and data could be place in available member and context switched >> would update the segment registers. >>=20 >> The segment registers were a crappy way of accessing memory if one >> had long linear arrays of data to process=85 such as image = processing=85 >> which happened to be the application of my work at the time=85 >>=20 >> And one could always implement an external MMU which was popular with >> the Motorola M68K which was sort of the contemporary alternative to >> the Intel x86 line. >>=20 >> John Clark. >>=20 >> On Mar 8, 2016, at 2:25 PM, Markus Hitter wrote: >>=20 >>> Am 08.03.2016 um 22:56 schrieb Brad Walker: >>>> But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet >>>> OR no >>>> amount of engineering could make it work? >>>=20 >>> If I recall correctly from some 25 years ago, memory address >>> mapping >>> (which is what a MMU does) is mandatory for preemtive multitasking. >>> An >>> i286 can't run a Unix-like OS either. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> In 2008 I tried to get FreeBSD down to its minimum, too. The >>> success >>> post is about all what's left today: >>>=20 >>> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-embedded/2008-October/0 >>> 00604.html >>>=20 >>> The task to get there is simple and straightforward, but time >>> consuming: >>> go step by step through the kernel configuration to disable >>> whatever you >>> can spare. Configure, build, try, repeat. If you need a small >>> entire >>> system, do the same for packages and every single file you copy >>> into >>> your system image. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Markus >>>=20 From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Tue Mar 8 23:55:24 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9241DAC82C7 for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22c.google.com (mail-ig0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D5A4999; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ig0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z8so31420511ige.0; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 15:55:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=SRqHRuZGVslPHWuY+HUHBNqeR08tSonYPEcXsQZZETc=; b=g3KqI0zFXJbU3KRK/ouBRfs8UCFCf7eSA83OMgwK1/3Pf0NJixFsu+LjiFPfnyE6Sk KUIc3HRC/FOI67CdbFKI5J99jaD49Qwlqn4rJaQ9jT2g2O5HeTBQjf5Au8kWu6EeOil5 3jfqk2TIsNcFQg3kIlEX91LdT8ZQ1o7ZPY68TgsYmISnWS1paNNH6k2i+6vjEL2liWTx Sl2jPu1heT6zIfqMdPVQDVYrwVYCMqbKzeUDKEuoGdY1vJwGo+yufr7aLAb84BCTPmj4 PEVXJ+Ev6mJV+yjiyu4hnI1Rp7SAwhV2vnCw4nIpe4flu+DLtITuKspYA+Db4AqTjJ8K 59LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=SRqHRuZGVslPHWuY+HUHBNqeR08tSonYPEcXsQZZETc=; b=H7A1TnCDw8uHW6fHuoABK04tiy3OINrpMob/vSB4kDWsfyoPacbSGVPKMdQFFSR+rT LWl2dfqNYQagV8D6tc6VrwL24xlEIaB02ccrIhky8/7p02Co08pw1fCts9+CM9ipgKyJ Zk1yG4ujd+hCZ1Ipqh7s7XN5OXj3leSD2cznD35I+JJNEePvUk3wGHriGSWqeLJJIiO/ ZAC2i4HsCQ65SXTNkTBjrCfCpVvgRaDQKUmswvxk+d5CdE971t6ygKodrN5c2o+we7P+ 8S+TGUyZ/i71dZFVvonMZjFg2SMV7uMmDNCThow9Db2z/DVhCbBVpu1gIdE3k0fG75Us p16w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJ473WjsET/ujmtKyNZyGJ6rbFRTu4JY0wgOItSxwXh5XHJe32xSM3+rsMfWJu4758Nf3GrTTik1Zu3qg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.43.134 with SMTP id w6mr20321784igl.22.1457481323817; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 15:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.14.19 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:55:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:55:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Adrian Chadd To: Brad Walker Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:55:24 -0000 Hi, If someone wanted to bring up freebsd on an mmu-less platform then I'd say go for it, but you'd have to crime out a lot of code and functionality to make it work. Honestly you'd likely be better off getting a microkernel type thing going and then bring over the minimum set of useful things (say the usb and network stacks) which don't really require much VM clue to operate. the filesystem code may be a bit more challenging to bring in as you're going to have to crime a bunch of VM specific things out, so it may not be worth it. -adrian From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 00:26:08 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7E6AC8F4A for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:26:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD528EB for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:26:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n190so47553143iof.0 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:26:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=Gfc8aq6LU6tYgbIN/2/mGFdm5ypF/bdWuCHLRfTpdik=; b=BlCPS44U8e/phtYdd5ysOuYVY9u5mbVciZYaYDJyjBsqe+IEEAXzRmYqNFqSobEMAj GiDAP7NxpofU6oNd27MYucphxMuChGPQJxvBApov9SNT9Tkh4tVNxFYFCtBYRUD4b5k8 z8WyP2iOxIrWixoY0oimGqj1zo40AJBl7W4kjK77OaoiCxoTizoWyoQliNlNK0W0oK5T gLNrJjYtuCe3LRV/83PKH/7A7Ohm2Ewq82c2qg0n1ptLEYTEoj04lpArHzTioqo0zJyj yvCeIGWUvlpG/nlvKFL6cTaO8GssgjrpnuGCqqUT32FYSFOrFfrBcL/pS/sF0bDG6lAu 7zGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=Gfc8aq6LU6tYgbIN/2/mGFdm5ypF/bdWuCHLRfTpdik=; b=EAaDXHHy5R2kbJmQjIGLc3o4x7pK1s06ZkRI72m6dhsBk78qdrt6M6z19KcUHx0/GV 06GBK+Ar3d+N02aX4reYRb9A+szzgGVVmJaOO+VvURcd1E1lRCpoDhpp26YuwTM8R7vW LAWPU66Vq9U5llULSHWvU/QlsPIvUYtI6qtvmrY8+w0108BHOgQjM6EeR9vEjxko3+mu rXB+Is9UJ3w9hCMH+JOtav2lNaAG0KS5DaPVPRNVT/P1WVehauVF/MylaJiwMQRbHMmz dxsa3ydn6auhXbTXFIYQs/yPFspIK7A+xWqxphOBm3LmNg5lTNIgSblsC4MIkBaEZPfA VEng== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJL1up65oLkoz6wVEJD+FEy/6j+zNSBqxce4aZ5jT0Fcl2Rmp4PlASmOBx+8cf9T1EGO8e3RfFSjakanhA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.155.206 with SMTP id d197mr28251819ioe.135.1457483167541; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:26:07 -0800 (PST) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.36.65.167 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 16:26:07 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [75.144.23.245] In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:26:07 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vmChYApbbGqlF3flqhwMrw4rEGU Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Warner Losh To: Brad Walker Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 00:26:08 -0000 On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Brad Walker wrote: > Correct. > > But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet OR no > amount of engineering could make it work? > > For example, I'm pretty well versed in the Solaris kernel stuff and there > is really no amount of engineering that could make it work in a non-MMU > environment.. > > I was thinking, at least in my mind, is that if Linux can do it certainly > FreeBSD could if the work was done. Am I incorrect? > > It might be possible. No body has done it. It's a bit of a heavy lift. You might be happier looking at a port of retrobsd.org's 2.11 port to tiny mips devices. Warner From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:20:52 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED86AC8532 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:20:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBE7586C; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:20:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id c3so38891497vkb.3; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:20:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=Q4+bx/rFxte/E4fDOd+w1B/QivvY8Dv1bizdVQTBvkM=; b=thryXkWaef81br8N34jK8dWyEJsLtFYd5N1WTM8HtBQFvTdZu1wDyOXELgkMgZL1CM qxTfmQsVnCsRQZSmfJ+Qpb9mYflnR13STBnLNTTpbGvR+kwWCyx/ubwbMk4s7fkpWxO3 a7Xf6/olr1jJbP6XCHhenJo5bgUItBjrxDnP/p1kGBRrKQFSR1kxxvG5wUsh6gZTWzFg 6cjeGYFeId6XHjGiY4oGOo5mK6cknwTP1h/SYrmX7QlC5LIj5kdTPTFzPDp09zSUP0xa FZDQ4FCf4qbXeKV/ZYF5nQExcawkPcWJu77T3Yuj+uQmAo1NMlopig/7ujgHpDIyykdL 0wqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=Q4+bx/rFxte/E4fDOd+w1B/QivvY8Dv1bizdVQTBvkM=; b=YD02QlSOZQwXtXkh0g6PO4Om5KjnFU68AzV26+rOjSgI+W+is10aB9zdAF6094BYPZ 66wB4d9oyLCcMg3J8oajepEubvRgJ7QwMYLda80iHc7oMflzYG+PWOn+IDa/s7M5jPve bvBarFjcRoM22srOyCg3GTQjx32seKBJ7BdIJ3+X9W6PYtqfAcTkIz9740xPUf/iIPMT jZCBHj1eLagmMGhGNL0Sh04Ui4J8uID0V11YSwDBVxKbSZ0n+Cfv3As3KFoC1t4fhJTq shmrDC5XZY2+qomV5Wbv5xdNztpniuE5WreoRUyQOdVO7XIAK2+PcJ4cNE47OsUdCTSn hRhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJML2nwkNHzxglXeMeEWuVkkDr6s7zI9mQlVq4Tof2XwjcJm1xshOHfx/P1GDVpLGZGklJEmnlnu5VMvg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.150.193 with SMTP id y184mr24283629vkd.99.1457486451027; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:20:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:20:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:20:50 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ayy7K9LyUQd7yAwMXcgJNPAvr3w Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:20:52 -0000 I tend to agree with your comments. I'm not certain that getting a microkernel is all that much use anymore. Sure they are tight, small and for some implementations time deterministic. But, the point is rapidly approaching where requirements are saturating what they can do. I've worked on the following microkernels: uTasker, ThreadX, ENEA Ose. But, each one has positives and negatives. But, the needs are starting to outweigh the positives and grow the negatives. For example, we have a requirement to implement SSL/TLS, BTLE, and ftp on a microkernel. By the time this is done, it will be worthwhile to look at alternatives. Not to mention, the needs just keep coming. -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Hi, > > If someone wanted to bring up freebsd on an mmu-less platform then I'd > say go for it, but you'd have to crime out a lot of code and > functionality to make it work. > > Honestly you'd likely be better off getting a microkernel type thing > going and then bring over the minimum set of useful things (say the > usb and network stacks) which don't really require much VM clue to > operate. the filesystem code may be a bit more challenging to bring in > as you're going to have to crime a bunch of VM specific things out, so > it may not be worth it. > > > -adrian > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:24:15 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCD2AC8730 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:24:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x229.google.com (mail-ig0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35DA1AE2; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:24:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ig0-x229.google.com with SMTP id ig19so32795556igb.1; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:24:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=7+OxaTuH8tj6go2pHrl40bjmth9hnD2h5SguJ8M0c5w=; b=Y45g9TN6DihW+wKhV0wEaW1EYuzVAEdU6Dtjz+J3UuydoEQ0o/qt1JLKjtyxcDDY9G UqD8G1JjnxTbAABrRCy+OmDOjIgXnxwLAY0nWIZ/kbwpRsk+WQvjN2O03hIjN1Oq+dO9 dbyKh4/DF/gV3fpeeakn7Z5EtiCnBz7M03FLOizrhk0WkCq2T54uCjEZ8bitqHrZAgpg xRl6Jr4eEpNdgntW6ues9dQ0ItF+FVlKYJVUNQ8hvFOiQSOO8igt9kelOoL6LgPZlkUv WHWpqPSc6sI39husAOP4BTKQh0UHexAycF11UtSTJXQOPSj1a7f5GRAT0ID02r688G+v pnvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=7+OxaTuH8tj6go2pHrl40bjmth9hnD2h5SguJ8M0c5w=; b=Hg/h+XB/jF7yk/iLwFD3duLGQ0zzjKa7jB+mnCYGZNRCMVMm58P4z761Q/kQvlVbxE a+PgDxF4so64IbbJk2KwIboz4SNl0Z77buOXd3dqV3uohXzGkHDJeqjpmw7GkaQu6gug n2xnYq6RHXvKHcHkpzGzKhNegmwLg1nb6YJLKmoxIc1lhyxF2wqI5IOu7OfoeDrkzypL upmxu7Y81Ur6jW5ePTl9BfEXazI/kysivFwSFE4KuufZaypnIBFfLmwzL/MsQVhXS3Fu ygy5J4ff17XLyDSRVj/p4gI0XCivR/NgRiuDrjHOH778a7+cIvIoVK7iTNxW4otGc/ez gkqg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLjhJcZiYsStoZIxTwls4hczY10O+NVomWYwrNtQeIpVgc4EjccSKBIH8TY9zhjVbAOPJPHlU/6xpvKFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.8.102 with SMTP id q6mr1814215iga.37.1457486654557; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.14.19 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:24:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:24:14 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Adrian Chadd To: Brad Walker Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:24:15 -0000 Right. So grab something that already exists, like ECOS or RTEMS. (They use FreeBSD bits iirc..) -a From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:32:09 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5979CAC8A0D for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:32:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10775D80; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:32:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id c3so39125586vkb.3; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:32:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=yJDenhoMtwHX+6myPLEcUiriiNsCf/meC+OGKhYG7XA=; b=MY3NgD6q7+ooHzoorw+ISxsWdjrkZ0F800tIAykMydFmEKKmCesmBtN84xLxmP2UT/ iCsafVMHBsOMB+XgNcYD9gTns17jJ8SGZxpv/QA8KbKEd7PmnNESPDamyFvlaHbQzI/s fRzkUBxxC/8ToQ7tKmMZsDUAGjHJLMOi9msxsg3se/bN+v6bN5wD3Avkl2MKOCTW+lUG i0MafmZXlD0jClzjvbWLixaFeH6h21Df6ElrQrKQulr0S+ySR54Yov98s5r1WiBxayYX +rF/4ktr5n3q1f+6CdnVjFt2eN0erLr0T4tSIoP3qw5tQNYfnEeJPpfUSIshuS4jkART +2GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=yJDenhoMtwHX+6myPLEcUiriiNsCf/meC+OGKhYG7XA=; b=R+3lG3UhV+9DimElpGrL8UZv54Cxw+v0foYY4IzYQN7sYNEWGUd2Kxj6oQ4Xt/p7a/ qe4hv/YJM2oOE66szCWkJtJOWQuQ5iAtIII1YWMLyv0j83Bk/aVZ8r3yCfN+gj+VJgOv Aiv+XZPdTkHYxuqQSEx+Gs5Hwgx/fYM31oiMiXX96L/FIJ23/gPbUTLLTeN1h64Ziomg V2G1sY8skHC5B0kw91h7sVBfEcRjtYyo7qKdhPEYlgYD++zOcmhZ7SUhT8fj6lZx19dz ALWXaokmfU4DgyUkRJTVNpJSSGp/mz1pLDczlxb5nv71C01Nl1EISRyHru6KrY7y87af osmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIo1WWwGGcApEfDEuHFc4WYHxiMH8fUq/FJGl9sTt9ZleItRLidahTaF+IHyPo41HOfMj5I8zu67Ib6gg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.42.198 with SMTP id q189mr25124699vkq.60.1457487128135; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:32:08 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:32:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:32:08 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3FGnoQ5xuE24TBszL8vSAI9e_7A Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Warner Losh Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:32:09 -0000 I looked at RetroBSD. Good stuff but still not where I need it. I really need some type of basic TCP/IP stack and I didn't see it in there.. But, over all a really very interesting piece of good work!! -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Brad Walker wrote: > >> Correct. >> >> But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet OR no >> amount of engineering could make it work? >> >> For example, I'm pretty well versed in the Solaris kernel stuff and there >> is really no amount of engineering that could make it work in a non-MMU >> environment.. >> >> I was thinking, at least in my mind, is that if Linux can do it certainly >> FreeBSD could if the work was done. Am I incorrect? >> >> > It might be possible. No body has done it. It's a bit of a heavy lift. > > You might be happier looking at a port of retrobsd.org's 2.11 port to > tiny mips devices. > > Warner > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:38:38 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B250AC8BB1 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:38:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44297ED0; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:38:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id k1so39413816vkb.0; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=YHLD2Hmc0jvxvWzvpe4ihFvUBDuPkkQMLxYlrDQoA3Q=; b=QsW6UpbV+Q0o2YyjQa+c2FWq9oiIKxzGUclS9J+gBcwpdXgrbqgjBg6FGomd7FNNGZ ieBTg2SU/Fu9nP8W8CendIBE3mJiAb5uwcV6ewhn1LFIV//zNyywUEWyey0aUkxr+KSw kuLqI3JL+snwFkjeYc+TKnRJZkt0Mw9I95TV9OwQnejl8Qu92peM+834xPOBw05KeUuq 4yiHrYK0sZN20hT78hqv3Fdp6kNwEyy4thcwOfNFZhH5NBL+8UGwQAq5B7BtiksjLdip /8L7pbBnwSdwBFdi9odHG7aVoL/3AvpEBq+/+3DAx7WuhvSNUrrbsSqnJi2szk/vhwLK rHgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=YHLD2Hmc0jvxvWzvpe4ihFvUBDuPkkQMLxYlrDQoA3Q=; b=XsOMMPc54509A28EsOfzwFerqQuoDUkzSSj84qMAbkNlqH82UdHZs9uI6Y2pDs8Y4S dxGhqt00iSNMgC5T6D41t93UvThbDxfa4zvlsqj8307WiW/Y3ZyFLLbGnAw7JeArMhki KRInlOLa1h2C2tqX+6qSUQ5tUQO/hIrqfziQD8s+wT/1TtQe+o7JZ3LYYdDzRJkZQijx XfUA18H3GxMDbBN/w6+5rbhnXTdXu5DzbLEWBH7kesiUqC5d84fQBt69gXuraCaxNHXK 1OX942m561jaoOAmiDGTd9uEm2cYOcbO88DY4JkLw9zlmHXiJuf04YLFXJ40W/MxPGep gG9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIjO73VJGZt3sv2AyOm3TDShhfgtdliNec5rrl4UdUkewH7MoTrvMUDv6lhbrhwfL49cNbvFTE19zXMaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.128.15 with SMTP id b15mr28884783vkd.128.1457487517404; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:38:37 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:38:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:38:37 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ejzjxti99HZFqHKk99BtwzxpNm0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Warner Losh Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:38:38 -0000 One other thing. I'm sure that I could do it but a couple of big issues come to mind. First, for the effort involved, how would I make money? I've got a family to raise and well the bills have to get paid. I truly admire all these people that seem to have copious amounts of time to do work freely. Back when I was a single guy in Silicon Valley, I could do it. But, not now. Lastly, if I invested the time, effort, and money into this, would it be something the community would look favorably on and accept into the source tree? I would hate to see the work not make it into the mainline. Like I said, if Linux can do it then why not FreeBSD? I would love to see this work correctly on FreeBSD. -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Brad Walker wrote: > >> Correct. >> >> But, are you saying that no engineering has been done on this yet OR no >> amount of engineering could make it work? >> >> For example, I'm pretty well versed in the Solaris kernel stuff and there >> is really no amount of engineering that could make it work in a non-MMU >> environment.. >> >> I was thinking, at least in my mind, is that if Linux can do it certainly >> FreeBSD could if the work was done. Am I incorrect? >> >> > It might be possible. No body has done it. It's a bit of a heavy lift. > > You might be happier looking at a port of retrobsd.org's 2.11 port to > tiny mips devices. > > Warner > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:44:52 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984A9AC8E38 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:44:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5053D35B; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:44:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id e6so39436277vkh.2; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:44:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=olEM1/5Yvt+/PYSjbeACieiR1fRw6vD/xbIxe+ltIYE=; b=EQgShCFW0LoN16sH+ocbgCkSEXas+umviTuKTaFzytqV4P0xvQiHK2EqskaIqIDE1T KEVNQELtSOZpa4BomLlUfmPrQu05z9N4DKh89DN2lydx9/RcVPXCdEsauCuaNh0U3XY/ Y/n0TeOGO1hxhIXjXeJe23MH7JbfU8IXoJ2pbKUkyn7U1V90BPccPJiKAXvzk/0SmQdz PkTXE89SxKTvk+BrLiTPH+L11wZNQ64uSt6li6dFZnfX3s2FOj2HOVaXhoRIEE5dOs4+ Zveui974aB1If8utn5FQph9cHjvjMEhzO9mnRX+jwErVccSb2bHDu90o1duZcqjvTt33 JZgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=olEM1/5Yvt+/PYSjbeACieiR1fRw6vD/xbIxe+ltIYE=; b=Ij503rrhxqKriH+SWkUeASQX0Fj0y8vXucc29/4WQVjOr20VUC7DxLdhwsJEfV4Kpr 6sbXpkrVpwP7cXIltl067d0uyFmkDvVv/aWlDrxLSUI0jmJ/0KjtRq65SXwSEijyyycg Bsxxle5vgZwJsye/meQrIY7DRDkaalzHHfXVRCDCP2utgkD/paTlx0nEhjTgTs4kVL1D tVt/XacctIDKoeYphx/gl+57ySW6xu5YoUTM0Um+00j7LdBAr+1OjnGu6p8HIcl+ErAX KEIKDoHTFdG61GuDIkI/V5ZJaLOp3gjLbAQ0oqiomgM3JrmRYhGNJpLFRWmPh8jWCxiK 5cHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJnVgGmVkI5Xp0hE6b4kkUpXNslRbGgX40dzmnVeo1PX/kCRvitE/BKVnYWJ62ES8guQAkSl4BHq638tg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.52.73 with SMTP id b70mr25023049vka.16.1457487891483; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:44:51 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:44:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:44:51 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WEj6Q9mV0HF_xpChqqBlztzkSI0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:44:52 -0000 That is a thought.. And for some projects it definitely makes sense. But, the ease with which one can work in a modern kernel is a pretty strong motivator these days. My god, the tiny processors are mostly 32 bit these days. I'm working on a ColdFire (68000 knock off) and it's 32bits and feature reach for an embedded processor. Even looking at the embedded processors for FPGAs are relatively robust. -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Right. So grab something that already exists, like ECOS or RTEMS. > > (They use FreeBSD bits iirc..) > > > -a > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:48:38 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A42BAC8F77 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:48:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeclark2006@aim.com) Received: from omr-m020e.mx.aol.com (omr-m020e.mx.aol.com [204.29.186.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30DF3862 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:48:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeclark2006@aim.com) Received: from mtaout-mac01.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mac01.mx.aol.com [172.26.222.205]) by omr-m020e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id D814638001BD; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 20:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from johnsnewbook.lan (datron9.dtwc.com [207.137.9.194]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-mac01.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 98D643800008A; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 20:42:44 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: John Clark In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:42:44 -0800 Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" , Ian Lepore Message-Id: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> To: Brad Walker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aim.com; s=20150623; t=1457487765; bh=an385YoKYEVIkCpM9FWOGkmo1Hv74j072WVGcGmIf2A=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=JstC+lZyy2fDdfxHxSp4VyFq8NSxJBD0CNwi0itwXMHkq1lYe27eVMSypGZs9GJOc yI7W+MsWV/hIJ/5h3MfIMvqoNAT+uc9KEaaIcDJjbNjyhGFgDWdVrn2eZKjHP1RvhA 7kpqfa8UhMsUtckOcGOnaj7Bji7UXeCIVVUbrO40= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1adecd56df7f943c18 X-AOL-IP: 207.137.9.194 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:48:38 -0000 On Mar 8, 2016, at 5:20 PM, Brad Walker wrote: > For example, we have a requirement to implement SSL/TLS, BTLE, and ftp = on a > microkernel. By the time this is done, it will be worthwhile to look = at > alternatives. Not to mention, the needs just keep coming. >=20 > -brad w. At which point I become very vociferous in arguing against using a = process so limited that it can=92t run a BSD/Linux derivative. This sort of happened with the recent brush with the 8051=85 The Boss = wanted to have the 8051 do some TCP/IP with some sort of Ethernet interface that was available from the company that made the = 8051=85 At which point I found a $15 AP based on MIPS/Atheros SoC, and provided = not only TCP/IP but also a local hotspot for control/monitoring, = ethernet hub, mini http server, etc. If someone wanted to reduce cost from $15 they could have gotten the = Eval package and gotten the design to a manufacturing house for much = less as well=85 Of course they would talking about volumes many times greater than 100s=85= The 8051 controller was still in there, but the =91fancy=92 stuff was on = a board that could handle =91fancy=92 stuff without making the project = 2-3 years worth of development on a minimal processor platform. Another aspect of the =91minimal system=92 that is required to do = =91fancy=92 stuff, is that often the TCP/IP implementation is sort of = =91half-baked=92 and can introduce problems which go far beyond just not accessing the device=85 it could cause problems for = the entire network, and require much debugging to solve=85 or even = understand what=92s going on=85 This may be ok if the devices are located in conveniently accessible = locations=85 but if one has to go to a remote location via helicopter or = pack in equipment with mules=85 such issues become bigger than the cost savings of some minimal = solution. John Clark. From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:49:24 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC64AC8FAE for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:49:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCC288C6; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ig0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id z8so33145595ige.0; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:49:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=+wQkdG3URUCEGJhQ/LpfBRHSEavOTzGafsqTXuktpVo=; b=TmySyHTBR05PowCINDjnt4EGYDuH+bwKGibusjS3xOmWWynCoomHM8ZazFBKeygwLq 1/u1UgRa0gyAdQ8mVmu3sCDy2SiFASPc1uELOx69ZDHzXvhPvlcO4yYxZSL+Nd1phvwl PJxONwH/aCeS0uUUSu6CAN/x164rBXDu9jSPdHHOj5DZSfE4/sq0fAFn5T+lB0Z26ZDc y+XI5xQNqA7pDuDA0aYlNd90AnsvIWI/4v5re4uoZMk6sxtNxTrqlzpMrcg9nHrc6ahN J4YjLCBty4d8UqNwUDgUVOoThc6lz2ZFQorRTLXk29jmUSZhVk/onUaXcQpZbUonC++C xZzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=+wQkdG3URUCEGJhQ/LpfBRHSEavOTzGafsqTXuktpVo=; b=Pcjr/X6weEAxmJCDHIDCowmmJL6gWm4yENeViI/aiHITXvnemWCDmcV16WXkhjJ3oH 3+QM93syG8xuRB64+BFllzFO9ITeDpT5lfBNt3KJgcX7CVX0s/Md/61jKWjT0C1tJolt +CaeRqVzpi8t82BfJkX0GXFVg49OFcAlXt7GNOwmacH5Jp3uW4QyLtUrmzx5J+KAQqMC OjYBFlwIAYOgrukeDE95pfOH2pjz6VSoi/+oqTRFNR1GeuO9iuPYuEh/oyM3hlnUxav5 k0qroLbJEW82PpPXzWz9rtSrLOCarKQTl6aROzCFZi95lAtMdoR9hovFx19EF858bnve qNeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIOWpjzgHsmeuWaM0tmZuNoDsnpQnrFE3nwhsFqm5AQXKZq9ukGfQwVw8lJ2MitYhLC3Re1m+vKK93ekw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.78.200 with SMTP id d8mr20570487igx.61.1457488163272; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.14.19 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:49:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:49:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Adrian Chadd To: Brad Walker Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:49:24 -0000 Right, and this is why these days people just don't bother and they spin up linux on a supported tiny SoC and they go from there. So I'd really just look at the minimum MIPS or ARM SoC that already runs FreeBSD and go from there. :-P -adrian From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:56:00 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E3FAC82CE for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:56:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0123C7E; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:55:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id e185so39691659vkb.1; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:55:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=RfIJYq1nEO8vx4JqzaWuBrbosxFsarFnvxehZw1lQlM=; b=asiXtWC4eR55ZJbOXwwN3V6B1QmNoU2rhJOWbpPLg2RqeoM2hDjzmrcfb+snWyxG4Q 8g+2DnPcHFJdXHKPxQ7WE/9H49wuYmS25ie/0NARjHuWKKMJlmVTObyJs1upXwJ9EbGu KGYWAsHfmwDxwEJFNJyBVIivVszDH0RWFVSaXH6x6hTyQvGYzuHjwRa8eBR367NfoLrr EB68nUl8QAeAKMk2jZ4YGAe0Y9PsJFvIDPFOiJo+y/fQu8CVOhLywguBkvrQ5BOP2bPV vcv55E7eRrxsjPylIb6OXmfdkbDkHidA7daD05ngu7rlfVpbly91ZfbpmT3NZ/P2Hcxn OqRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=RfIJYq1nEO8vx4JqzaWuBrbosxFsarFnvxehZw1lQlM=; b=TS6rNfbVIZoJ7UTlzQGPYRqeLCSso43qOq2pDRRQZ6S2JoaL358Y0xOqmWwl1Yrw3y 31cexZWv3Lifx8bTTDr+IxqrpPjLTextlAMcaEVewknLSSUKmwXlVB0u5Ofk+FWe7R2b tpwamPSAwWJQ9wKuV++1bZu/VHGIxPHtKDpUqjIdeIdRoWZ09Bd2CnIbpcGOJY/I6OZx RGKVoUySEVQhVse0XTe+4org9tjgCkk1OP6CzZQFl2064vYaWDwoxTciH/TRn2TesRGL CU5fm2P487GGYL4e7PkXR73VLjmMcgMvtBnKCaY1gov3TvrK4Ero6VRDsgYNGSxtb9lu YQPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIEMuT2S8jD0D+5c+2qbeJpT7p72jTyq6K6f3fX2eGjkFYQTqXMD97x47YiGq710Ms+kQcL2Uq7oIEGnQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.139.132 with SMTP id n126mr29141808vkd.78.1457488558883; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:55:58 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:55:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:55:58 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ULoLitqCQZVPYBJ2GZBv7f5QiPg Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: John Clark Cc: Adrian Chadd , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" , Ian Lepore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:56:00 -0000 By God John, you have pretty much summed up the current state of my engineering life! I encountered these problems when I worked at a company called Xetawave. They install these RF modems all over the place. A big market is the oil/gas industry. If something breaks, they have to send out a technician and that costs $100s of dollars. Managers start to get really anxious when that happens. My current embedded client is about the same thing. Once the device is installed getting it fixed/changed can be a real hassle. Don't even get me started on the TCP/IP or memory issues dealing with uTasker. I can't believe companies actually fall for this stuff, but they do. They make real products out of them. But, it can be such a hassle. -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 6:42 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mar 8, 2016, at 5:20 PM, Brad Walker wrote: > > For example, we have a requirement to implement SSL/TLS, BTLE, and ftp on= a > microkernel. By the time this is done, it will be worthwhile to look at > alternatives. Not to mention, the needs just keep coming. > > -brad w. > > > At which point I become very vociferous in arguing against using a proces= s > so limited that it can=E2=80=99t run a BSD/Linux derivative. > > This sort of happened with the recent brush with the 8051=E2=80=A6 The Bo= ss wanted > to have the 8051 do some TCP/IP with some sort of > Ethernet interface that was available from the company that made the 8051= =E2=80=A6 > > At which point I found a $15 AP based on MIPS/Atheros SoC, and provided > not only TCP/IP but also a local hotspot for control/monitoring, ethernet > hub, mini http server, etc. > > If someone wanted to reduce cost from $15 they could have gotten the Eval > package and gotten the design to a manufacturing house for much less as > well=E2=80=A6 > Of course they would talking about volumes many times greater than 100s= =E2=80=A6 > > The 8051 controller was still in there, but the =E2=80=98fancy=E2=80=99 s= tuff was on a > board that could handle =E2=80=98fancy=E2=80=99 stuff without making the = project 2-3 years > worth of development on a minimal > processor platform. > > Another aspect of the =E2=80=98minimal system=E2=80=99 that is required t= o do =E2=80=98fancy=E2=80=99 > stuff, is that often the TCP/IP implementation is sort of =E2=80=98half-b= aked=E2=80=99 and > can introduce problems which go > far beyond just not accessing the device=E2=80=A6 it could cause problems= for the > entire network, and require much debugging to solve=E2=80=A6 or even unde= rstand > what=E2=80=99s going on=E2=80=A6 > > This may be ok if the devices are located in conveniently accessible > locations=E2=80=A6 but if one has to go to a remote location via helicopt= er or pack > in equipment with mules=E2=80=A6 > such issues become bigger than the cost savings of some minimal solution. > > John Clark. > > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 01:58:00 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08078AC835F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:58:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3321CFD; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:57:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id c3so39669584vkb.3; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:57:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=ZPTPjZp68gu5Y/uJToSVDFQzKlAE0wtU3wyR3JP8Gl0=; b=luKt2a8w4QPrDJcy9EOO25PmMwMnDwc862mqT4c9D714D9ooTMoz9F3bIqYrhJetma Gr4OhtJlekpm/suA+YaANS5DfZFyaNbFm29X27sJWzoeSxppQOAwpf2DlM+9GvXke4m4 Al889OmGbScTBy7QLGztSpnhPH0Y+Jmh2ZzlAtw4X6oIlQCAwvgt+5eD14y4ok4hVUL9 JsJ5FhK9Xzl3ama822bAMRF7RBC7YdC1HwAYvVQ5QUoKikSaq0ijVC50XHb7SKzjAAH5 HJmBM6aQBZ07DFXRL3KciCo41FuX5I3tHDQvvXUHuBe7PyuDM+1BByMhj/+7P5+xIlLC 8+gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=ZPTPjZp68gu5Y/uJToSVDFQzKlAE0wtU3wyR3JP8Gl0=; b=L/gISSPNkcaPiVeAPvRTsm/86nJgCZOXOLjHUozE0CnTo6ClLiEMT1K01lKXDA02i1 rthqu0BZUiBHQUEikdvy+pD87750Z38vsTeZIZiajnzp9u+1S6YphH9Gs7iqx75PWDDH +W2hoYvHhTf4DjIRyFr9owO4ypKHyIgw4+PyYoTGidfBzCahUJQhsUUjY/EjGDNWgUuU JJ4kEDiP3BjO4flLhC3RdSwsUK5jUF7Zj6Q5jRKeX9JmZJpoLKW60SaGBvG+xzSJArw3 X4ynwyXWkAI64RGyuxFYkJBI8jlnrDmd5ognQN/kWQbdWKKCfdUZmwP4gZ4PFaTU7p1U fjuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJVwYXlkFGtDWlbCnk+0QY6UhM/Ww+OOtMrti+Oq2jbWt2Cq0Kjy6fNliYwKfHQOEvtP0LEX33DKQQr/A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.56.151 with SMTP id f145mr29885209vka.107.1457488678955; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:57:58 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:57:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:57:58 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _BdTAoEX6gxt7Emge0lct1uooTk Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 01:58:00 -0000 On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Right, and this is why these days people just don't bother and they > spin up linux on a supported tiny SoC and they go from there. > > So I'd really just look at the minimum MIPS or ARM SoC that already > runs FreeBSD and go from there. :-P Would you mind pointing me to an example of this, because I'm just not finding it. -brad w. From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 02:22:52 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E750AC8D5E for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 02:22:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hiren@strugglingcoder.info) Received: from mail.strugglingcoder.info (strugglingcoder.info [104.236.146.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0100F989 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 02:22:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hiren@strugglingcoder.info) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.1.1.3]) (Authenticated sender: hiren@strugglingcoder.info) by mail.strugglingcoder.info (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9C9EE17ACE; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 11:17:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 11:17:40 -0800 From: hiren panchasara To: Warner Losh Cc: Brad Walker , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. Message-ID: <20160308191740.GF49961@strugglingcoder.info> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yH1ZJFh+qWm+VodA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 02:22:52 -0000 --yH1ZJFh+qWm+VodA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/08/16 at 11:42P, Warner Losh wrote: > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Brad Walker wrote: >=20 > > I'm looking at working on a new project that will use the FreeBSD kerne= l. I > > would attempt to embed the kernel on a very small NXP Kinetis chip. I've > > previously done this using a Linux kernel but also had DDR memory attac= hed > > to the chip. This project would not have a DDR chip attached. > > > > So a couple of questions. 1 - What is the smallest size I could configu= re > > the FreeBSD kernel out of the box? Could I get the size to be less than > > 10MB, 5MB, 2MB, or etc.? > > >=20 > I've managed to get this down to about 2MB or a bit smaller. Warner, Is any of that work open-sourced? If so, can you share how to got to that small footprint? > Compressed > this can be a little smaller. It takes a fair amount of work, but it can = be > done. >=20 >=20 > > I did a little bit of research on the PicoBSD and NanoBSD but that still > > seem to be targeted to a little bit bigger chip than I have available. > > Brad, One thing you can look at is: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-wifi-build It has a bunch of mips and some arm configs. IIRC, it can build something that can be flashed on 8MB for sure. You may tweak that to get to probably even smaller image. Cheers, Hiren >=20 > How big a chip do you have? NanoBSD currently needs at least > 64MB (and ideally 128MB) of storage. PicoBSD can be a bit smaller. >=20 > Warner >=20 --yH1ZJFh+qWm+VodA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQF8BAABCgBmBQJW3yVRXxSAAAAAAC4AKGlzc3Vlci1mcHJAbm90YXRpb25zLm9w ZW5wZ3AuZmlmdGhob3JzZW1hbi5uZXRBNEUyMEZBMUQ4Nzg4RjNGMTdFNjZGMDI4 QjkyNTBFMTU2M0VERkU1AAoJEIuSUOFWPt/lvoQH/20kYoUJCity79SEvxwWltJR In2F0YEj+Uy/9acQuizz1UEcOgappSI3sSCPKNjw34CGCCmhHAQEba3YPNJEngPL 0Vk0VpyE67BI3lJaCG8LbGQCEhCfYZnuGgotLxgcdI6Pwc+4BWzJxD1dRUyQNcDA k5ce9vzwa7xKsUWthzgQkHCI6VeGphwy5+Tmv7HK6osRRaEynuz8iEUhuHaBWGam bYXJUp+kmrM1XV5Y1LY5c6Ie2iddB2N+Tg0y5F/IsDrVJqWqh+gEkZi7/L2sdQ3R wWsCW56AdyGOttOaSOC4rhIgkkuhQWqFi4BdyuFxpQMZ0MV/0YKokveQNeWviA8= =x2e3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yH1ZJFh+qWm+VodA-- From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 02:25:03 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BCDAC8E45 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 02:25:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CCCFAC8; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 02:25:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brad2000@gmail.com) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id e6so40284112vkh.2; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 18:25:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=6EJEcBMmtMnleLJQ50fDz8kWzftO7Ed8ctnSgKVd5Ak=; b=PpwNXRiJ4S6SaMoCQp4YQ2fU9qrCeDf26+gznlRfR0nKPxI2LBVLAcSGgoUyJJNjZL RjLPgXLMR/reE1lKCeK65pvWeMpZOusBEN8qf2hzIn4HRbmqMMxib8C92j6eTgcGFTM5 8dS8G/K/D54k6SGJro6royPGWxxpAsmMf92+raEu7z8z/NkbHaQoHedK+Q8HHj4GN57n TV5MhnN3aJQvashykq+Q9E0WaJUduV4KSL3BC3TuYsP//0CBICUomvsiwHmYlFVV/4dC VLltd8eMPEEr6oJVbk0kKq6dhDX7w0zWxGITRA+SY+o7yuF6Ix2nSTiRQQ41vwtax3zB iCFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=6EJEcBMmtMnleLJQ50fDz8kWzftO7Ed8ctnSgKVd5Ak=; b=fE7T6TYTM71LCqBatEEGyjL6ZoxvscAS+MPi0lNtOYaHaOpK1xAHahQqBj3FQfzQZu wO2AkgiWBxKXc0GdkY6EfxnFiWEFt/ZAYgUX7VNKgobxMWOkbgLQnLymQyUdbfEUmDTm huen5efCHf/lzlM525fqKwlQU1eI5sOY6QCHEf4/wa3hmhmD+Vwub8ZGHuwHM2bad3Rn H3PrVKisfxY5rHD5cVzJ2O5r41friDFvoy03IwhdHmbNY6HP8i+oLK1YSuwv43zoCDNp dI4J/XhZsLXlZ6ye+6rJCNi1oAZ2Gd/fNcrV7oMLT2Ug6UOED+UxeXwIgP5uhiHJ78aD uuIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKsPrF+jFHOzxh937CE9oV5rbuB1a/pf+/Dq4NfnNss/cjA9LDd+Zpa1FgF0/oCCPTb9/EVYAy2DyUx6w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.8.142 with SMTP id 136mr30541748vki.14.1457490302220; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 18:25:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: brad2000@gmail.com Received: by 10.31.163.18 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 18:25:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:25:02 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: -0AJaC4Q8y7yUCQ3WaCJVAiLQdo Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Brad Walker To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 02:25:03 -0000 I was looking at the config file for the Zedboard, which happens to have an ARM on it. I have one on my bench. Anyways, it so reminds me of the days when I started my career working on BSD on Sun 2/120 and 3/60 machines. Clean, clear, and efficient. Very good times.. 8-) But, now I'm dating myself. -brad w. On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > Right, and this is why these days people just don't bother and they > spin up linux on a supported tiny SoC and they go from there. > > So I'd really just look at the minimum MIPS or ARM SoC that already > runs FreeBSD and go from there. :-P > > > -adrian > From owner-freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org Wed Mar 9 03:38:18 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-embedded@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A73AC86D9 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 03:38:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09F40240; Wed, 9 Mar 2016 03:38:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ig0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id vf5so2480578igb.0; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=80S1OcuODzYDKGifsEEaSnyNPG0LKHK2VMJWRwL854w=; b=sHBXS90fUsv5X+FYanynUfquinjUJ2jpGTq2e+YHlutuF/VsiAf1cc/MyMw77YOHCE Oi12tP9yMTvMQADuiZsG9a97VWU9BUf37PRi64BxLS0KkRHMGa4Tc4pFwHJDWBIesRH4 l7XpeNuCU1KHvUngbqUNyIJk7GXa6t8dYsuUnGLEYXtOVf8JQvD/3e3e/Qa/nwIWsDPZ Mfb1DxqJa5AmFLamlIbumaJh+XLSj7X3Qhv2xiaxITOJ+HVrIXBIoNfoZwxGPXPlutym J1kUPg5uPOU4AV2/YYL9vfS6kEKx5V1AAnZ6XsUqXArAtEzcyuCzUxCUzI6lPFKgsXCy UQlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=80S1OcuODzYDKGifsEEaSnyNPG0LKHK2VMJWRwL854w=; b=hseADgwdEZjNBlRHE1ht5NN/+UNxipgBMGkdMK/zmXl92mdHA4xb5a2Nn3OTgYQsYK pIkIJWccfpjmzYhU2WMabIeJtc2g8+4I70jIYF/qaEk6kzp3hhzTu+QygOpBgmKwuk4j tBKqwIq11pe1WxdkjXGq44ymxfvZrmLAqWYTCW802X9Yyxgar/ZByMc0+j4IGeI3780N lPB1V1T07qff5raCWkD8EVpIngxThTkkWy5aAMUP+Og9jZvsBYtkK5anX1VYJYZxWVl2 emEyt+6iTuU0jlXIJ9DHuWgsgp0DJGDXovL1c/byodt1cf3nVfYaPQ9rUynXh33cfoUF YAiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJL07xQ1VS8HDu0v0tEKZYE/6gqx4hlFkWGe7dekcVyB5GhbqPMjz9bCDkO3yAd+2eZXG5fA/RgHDu0IVQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.157.39 with SMTP id wj7mr15246359igb.61.1457494697167; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.14.19 with HTTP; Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1457473674.1406.46.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:38:17 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ? about kernel size.. From: Adrian Chadd To: Brad Walker Cc: Ian Lepore , "freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: freebsd-embedded@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Dedicated and Embedded Systems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 03:38:18 -0000 https://wiki.freebsd.org/FreeBSD/mips is a good start for MIPS. :) -a