From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 17 03:25:29 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604E8E9E8B9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:25:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from mx18-out9.antispamcloud.com (mx18-out9.antispamcloud.com [207.244.64.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26E748053D for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:25:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from [153.92.8.106] (helo=srv31.niagahoster.com) by mx18.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQPZm-0007wn-HM; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 04:25:20 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ojB9wtMaIy3SFMjEdWMLd/UPXp/NcqQe2652HKg37I0=; b=IH+57GtndCRs5VM1AaYgp5t3Sf K5Sav4Bf4Ww1dx0qf/yclC+shPdpvPPGGrlM8PwqXsB+uRiGhguuBJ1b4jL4NZ2F+YTJlcFNaJ2e9 6Om3BXcYzx1HZhMsiD80NF6kXSnfW+P9MLdYxxLiuTY/H9UXwv6iiOnFF1mH33a3/Jwm5dDeKMtIo KRZXVbMeK13AVBF+16E0gQpucst3plHgOKgVaLOasOSnFMjrP11YTLAs1c1ZYmrqcHuIT27fybgTN RsJaDcz5w+UX21WTvAYLlFTtuBRrM0uZ3ltPbzeZRgo/tMNN3i7/eC50pUswVl/PfypF33/0NkPeu Tki9mK9w==; Received: from [114.125.105.130] (port=18652 helo=X220.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQPZ0-00099m-MK; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 10:24:30 +0700 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:24:28 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Stari Karp Cc: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: niaga Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=niaga@out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.24) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5pi/PuczuEt36UmWAcC/Ptjj1g3/PwYZaTCzSym8uE9HZyapCu8pv/l9 0ZuaxwayyIKV+LZ6Gp/LHtMS0x6hjDH6QG6oDWQr5qk8z/hipQQVg2UF87yfGXUn1JqaojOkVQK0 CX/B6Eq6gMcBfQUD1sQEybI1sOftHmSKUCHCvcq0znVhuHMMuHm+3AjcIRD8SJ14XhG3Gl/C9Fph J6Jt1L7u+nxKLrgVvAfnktki+lrHsZM3NzGj8IcslzaWgqEOuM+NvpGlmXbejfqufV4BNvqsAL96 EgU4J4J3tsW/5DkwosefbE1jmWEp5zI0N9cLxVT08VH0yijnhbv6KoiGRjf1jL6IeclsVv9KInUA VKaEbakcPDCTslva+VoTLKS2SpdzyOrbyjmSxo0VnpL7F8y56+418zUeOQ0QXBql74iA17NirEYy qwqMBGrw8ELiqMiA6ZaoUfKfmj/l7KQTGVaZ3JKVmi72ocgY5kMQSjs7JzWerSCxjnzYJaoqOJEH e6lb3jSUvyQBw3jj+H4QpBjSnVNlm+ZMzj5OO5yrsx4K/9SWlhym2WbBpt8EBvLon7LQkq6FHu1g EQb91NcK++rqioQkCMCIkDSchN2XLyoPzMjuWhzMSGijhmBPgKGg9Ym0zuG5bGEtHB4eQyPb/Sxq r2ls37TS+tBSPvy8vEanh2GVJey/ajNbSNKe2rt/F829wbFOJShWZSdUVLtK8Jlc9aUV1oY4fX3W 5eOCNA397KhBgEnzWqvz+Ub2Hil3Lwf+YDyAZbFVGPdgHYLUovTWCk/2aD3PKPan0Zq8wFAdNgA/ bvpxeniqBDKdL+6MGabImyUM+mwkdfbDv/vp50qggwXnXge+UydFbsUWPrpxJ2nsnL2uDUV7tpt4 92PMwfcRqNG53byBPkgwbHJvry7CcAk7CB5gmqxSo35nmHjRiyyOq2NXfEHbIsdIVsl26A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine1.antispamcloud.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:25:29 -0000 Hi, On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 13:09:09 -0500 Stari Karp wrote: > Hi! > > I am running FreeBSD on iMac 11,1 and my hard drive is going down. I > am looking for the new one. First I look for the same one which is > 80$ and I found Seagate 2.0TB FireCuda Solid State Hybrid drive which > is less expensive than SSD drive and for me will be good choice: > Specifications: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Seagate/ST2000DX002/ > > I do not know if will be problem with FreeBSD. On computer is the only > OS FreeBSD. > I write this on a machine running FreeBSD 10 with a FireCuda 2TB drive, but the 2.5" version. The drive works but its behaviour was not what I expected. The SSD part is too small from my point of view. The drive is really fast when working on a project for which all fits into the 8GB SSD memory my drive has. It becomes a totally different story when compiling the kernel or installing large ports. Even a simple 'exit' from a shell can take a minute when the shell I want to return was moved to the swap partition. Yes, this one minute is sixty seconds. The same is true when writing large amounts of data to the drive. The drive becomes slow, very, very slow. When the data to be read are not in the SSD part, the drive behaves like a normal HD when you are not writing large data sets at the same moment of time. This is also my second drive. The first one died after less than 15TB of data had been transferred. Of course, Seagate exchanged it for free. Both drives showed the same behaviour. With other words, it is a double sided sword. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 17 11:13:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7092DE862A9 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:13:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 034396CD63 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:13:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id g75so24584482wme.0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:13:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/n8pz+LKCu8HzBHFu8l1fF/kxKGA0W9CNdGjOtaj1E0=; b=uRbkj4vo6bcwVFYGrjR0jbm5kHVNpyZof6uLJ8NiXq89rbMer9m7wVs/lyc0DO9cZp dxB2MFXikx3NIZ4SAq9Tdz5R9nNY2jLIATkxNIL7frXrf7CIJhq3nAzQ1Geh7uGiD9pr cqkpMoA4FIbzl972yQWScB2cwd/1NhaOnKcjkcVw8lQT3bg+qpMtpicZ6FsodoKNIi3g 7nyIGaIomsKKGtCSbeAOOIqNgP0gt2H3gxBQoOe+htGE400OT88ADQmFCQekd6Shh6Rm QPwVp6cVM/Irklxn1jou4rK6Cnocj0Le89klQExS0EwXI/7J3CVMUldPev5dTz2bFCTd 25hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIUzM14+MI0wnENMgn1h15U1G9D7O6vGrqhDWlQVl31ZBOnleNF 7L5SCDRlZqS8zTlc0chOub0ROA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBov1VKzLKNN1hObQAm17YWLLtRO2X9ENjq2VrKIa+jXQI3HjXUMc5B63/RQIdmnHq1FWgUkG2w== X-Received: by 10.80.130.39 with SMTP id 36mr24934426edf.297.1513509204104; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([81.17.24.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f11sm9433204edf.28.2017.12.17.03.13.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 17 Dec 2017 03:13:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:13:19 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:13:26 -0000 On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:24:28 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > I write this on a machine running FreeBSD 10 with a FireCuda 2TB > drive, but the 2.5" version. The drive works but its behaviour was > not what I expected. > > The SSD part is too small from my point of view. The drive is really > fast when working on a project for which all fits into the 8GB SSD > memory my drive has. It becomes a totally different story when > compiling the kernel or installing large ports My understanding is they weren't intended to work like that. The last I heard was that the SSD was divided into two, one part specifically speeds up booting, and the other part caches sectors where the head had to seek to access a small amount of data. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 17 11:18:24 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FF5E8642E for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@yandex.com) Received: from forward102j.mail.yandex.net (forward102j.mail.yandex.net [5.45.198.243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "forwards.mail.yandex.net", Issuer "Yandex CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 199B06CE81 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:18:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from starikarp@yandex.com) Received: from mxback4j.mail.yandex.net (mxback4j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::10d]) by forward102j.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id A20855602034; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:18:19 +0300 (MSK) Received: from smtp2o.mail.yandex.net (smtp2o.mail.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::26]) by mxback4j.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTP id sfWXRzoFdI-IJxi41Vw; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:18:19 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1513509499; bh=21fp9QEWck1gQ30WL3upfCSqiZGPfgZUQif4GQgL5Ds=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=A1B5/8kYEFrs9lJ31Mlqm1WINyEHQ36JxVPl6tww02HjLyvN7a7WXf07nk0Kx1wmM iHpBFZTUnOTw8xb/UnWMU/HIAZtQ/V0ZAXfvfi/O8atsqDsZh1KoERQRgjekOL5ETD 6ueAVP84HWNp5fd7CZ4/f4sojO2/lqDGqLQFjxOE= Received: by smtp2o.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id uOUICsTeR0-IH6e9T0f; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:18:18 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client certificate not present) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1513509498; bh=21fp9QEWck1gQ30WL3upfCSqiZGPfgZUQif4GQgL5Ds=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=hDnLmWWKrZ3Nofi2PTa68MKo3+YoJj+JzR4EtsYkfJe+TeG7cE4HVJcTqeKU0DD3Z OZLnadXD4K4+8UMQZexcKoMKyzpVB80N6PGJgqhbU9bc+RGpgcfI1/hxTbxR0VxkDd yNDljcEZEAKodRmcXcHI6sn2BBy0VIcdsCyjrB/Q= Authentication-Results: smtp2o.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.com Message-ID: <1513509495.32624.1.camel@yandex.com> Subject: Re: hd firecuda From: Stari Karp To: Erich Dollansky Cc: FreeBSD Questions Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:18:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.24.2 FreeBSD GNOME Team Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:18:24 -0000 On Sun, 2017-12-17 at 11:24 +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 13:09:09 -0500 > Stari Karp wrote: > > > Hi! > > > > I am running FreeBSD on iMac 11,1 and my hard drive is going down. > > I > > am looking for the new one. First I look for the same one which is > > 80$ and I found Seagate 2.0TB FireCuda Solid State Hybrid drive > > which > > is less expensive than SSD drive and for me will be good choice: > > Specifications: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Seagate/ST2000DX002 > > / > > > > I do not know if will be problem with FreeBSD. On computer is the > > only > > OS FreeBSD. > > > > I write this on a machine running FreeBSD 10 with a FireCuda 2TB > drive, > but the 2.5" version. The drive works but its behaviour was not what > I > expected. > > The SSD part is too small from my point of view. The drive is really > fast when working on a project for which all fits into the 8GB SSD > memory my drive has. It becomes a totally different story when > compiling > the kernel or installing large ports. Even a simple 'exit' from a > shell > can take a minute when the shell I want to return was moved to the > swap partition. Yes, this one minute is sixty seconds. The same is > true > when writing large amounts of data to the drive. The drive becomes > slow, very, very slow. > > When the data to be read are not in the SSD part, the drive behaves > like a normal HD when you are not writing large data sets at the same > moment of time. > > This is also my second drive. The first one died after less than 15TB > of data had been transferred. Of course, Seagate exchanged it for > free. > > Both drives showed the same behaviour. > > With other words, it is a double sided sword. > > Erich Thank you. I have bad experience with Seagate, this is my second HD. I decided for 1TB or 2 TB Western Digital 1.0TB WD Black Hard Disk Drive 3.5-Inch | SATA 6.0Gb/s | 7200RPM | 64MB Cache https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Western%20Digital/WD1003FZEX/ I do not like invest in SSD drive because iMac 1,1 is old and who knows how long will be good and the next one will be PC. Thank you. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 17 11:50:22 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F55AE87093 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:50:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from mx18-out9.antispamcloud.com (mx18-out9.antispamcloud.com [207.244.64.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A921B6DAFC for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:50:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from [153.92.8.106] (helo=srv31.niagahoster.com) by mx42.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQXST-00010i-Kn; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:50:18 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=nWEehORU0XmfVdDiIjdjBcUlXporHMfCYJ++Dy8WN8c=; b=QFYNBschfqHZDKe19oeHJgn/it rciG7fFrgOW01qGFqkAjZv76JiHWaJi79+jrJY4pN4qlrlrHHvd115HpqbRGwQfQa24JOvKSUa1pJ bt+gEwYHz6Cv06WI7hH7Ucoa/elZDU/mm1ZNcsgsGiDLxMN9bagHdODtqSVCadGG4EcXM1v3zFYXP Madm3Ft6l5S5LjqitEPJhdrHxn/JPlrtkR8zTtXaMq58ywr3A1u+cZMl5Np+PZHIXwvBQNi/Afuy/ DNCez/0Kk1kZOVOdyXGTz9b75qk4berdfIBrwnI9i3CR3IgfMr6KEtrrIVPQokP/gW/xX42tg/Wcw pawG4cPw==; Received: from [114.125.105.130] (port=38742 helo=X220.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQXRj-00023D-HQ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:49:31 +0700 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:49:29 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: Stari Karp , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171217194929.428c0808.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <1513509495.32624.1.camel@yandex.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <1513509495.32624.1.camel@yandex.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: niaga Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=niaga@out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.30) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5iAQL2ohzw3sq46YvNcz3Nzj1g3/PwYZaTCzSym8uE9HZyapCu8pv/l9 0ZuaxwayyIKV+LZ6Gp/LHtMS0x6hjDH6QG6oDWQr5qk8z/hipQQVg2UF87yfGXUn1JqaojOkVblf KquC46Clw8RkrwWp7mIEybI1sOftHmSKUCHCvcq0znVhuHMMuHm+3AjcIRD8SNcndBz0AYmbn3BI z8FLT9Tu+nxKLrgVvAfnktki+lrHsZM3NzGj8IcslzaWgqEOuM+NvpGlmXbejfqufV4BNvqsAL96 EgU4J4J3tsW/5DkwosefbE1jmWEp5zI0N9cLxVT08VH0yijnhbv6KoiGRjf1jL6IeclsVv9KInUA VKaEbakcPDCTslva+VoTLKS2SpdzyOrbyjmSxo0VnpL7F8y56+418zUeOQ0QXBql74iA17NirEYy qwqMBGrw8ELiqMiA6ZaoUfKfmj/l7KQTGVaZ3JKVmi72ocgY5kMQSjs7JzWerSCxjnzYJaoqOJEH e6lb3jSUvyQBw3jj+H4QpBhmxvjvXMrt9tbyFJUyiqmlBQy++WtSuwgqkpPKq3pYY0HMi5YLoEVF pWE+Q4GPEr5sGEXpB2xMSMxt/AwdLvqWpQrYCrXZ+GSKfQqeXd/0/z9+5jlDpzk0rhrnoRggvhdb 1K6tQQSI6RVfqOjZSM0/bSYpdPkX23Uy51xrp5EOs51bUYydJi8oIIMwRgeAzIXVAbJteJ3sZapL m2f30ydUPzaedsl1cWhx0b0p/7yKVsfpghGQE0oK6bQuU18MUzeK8+SvDuPIe14unmKtzeou/tAV l4JF4OKoaGXF1Z8iVRqSDj3qUwsRTLyGr48f4gN2DiW4DS09CMepnSRBK5zYVgW9/bktU41htiJ8 fk7NkL64VVQ+kjR32goiFjjkAJIYiIWq463e1oIoK15uxgO5WjN06Upwcw2E86eY0stEUg== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine1.antispamcloud.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:50:22 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:18:15 -0500 Stari Karp wrote: > On Sun, 2017-12-17 at 11:24 +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 13:09:09 -0500 > > Stari Karp wrote: > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > I am running FreeBSD on iMac 11,1 and my hard drive is going down. > > > I > > > am looking for the new one. First I look for the same one which > > > is 80$ and I found Seagate 2.0TB FireCuda Solid State Hybrid drive > > > which > > > is less expensive than SSD drive and for me will be good choice: > > > Specifications: > > > https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Seagate/ST2000DX002 / > > > > > > I do not know if will be problem with FreeBSD. On computer is the > > > only > > > OS FreeBSD. > > > > > > > I write this on a machine running FreeBSD 10 with a FireCuda 2TB > > drive, > > but the 2.5" version. The drive works but its behaviour was not what > > I > > expected. > > > > The SSD part is too small from my point of view. The drive is really > > fast when working on a project for which all fits into the 8GB SSD > > memory my drive has. It becomes a totally different story when > > compiling > > the kernel or installing large ports. Even a simple 'exit' from a > > shell > > can take a minute when the shell I want to return was moved to the > > swap partition. Yes, this one minute is sixty seconds. The same is > > true > > when writing large amounts of data to the drive. The drive becomes > > slow, very, very slow. > > > > When the data to be read are not in the SSD part, the drive behaves > > like a normal HD when you are not writing large data sets at the > > same moment of time. > > > > This is also my second drive. The first one died after less than > > 15TB of data had been transferred. Of course, Seagate exchanged it > > for free. > > > > Both drives showed the same behaviour. > > > > With other words, it is a double sided sword. > > > > Erich > > Thank you. I have bad experience with Seagate, this is my second HD. I > decided for 1TB or 2 TB > Western Digital > 1.0TB WD Black Hard Disk Drive > 3.5-Inch | SATA 6.0Gb/s | 7200RPM | 64MB Cache > https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Western%20Digital/WD1003FZEX/ > > I do not like invest in SSD drive because iMac 1,1 is old and who > knows how long will be good and the next one will be PC. > drives can easily be changed. Anyway, you will not have surprises with this disk. Just a normal 1TB. It will deliver just what you expect. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 17 14:25:37 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78001E8B0DB for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:25:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from mx6-out9.antispamcloud.com (mx6-out9.antispamcloud.com [95.211.2.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 268B371F06 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:25:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from [153.92.8.106] (helo=srv31.niagahoster.com) by mx26.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQXQw-0000de-V8 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:48:43 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=U0/NBahsAiGAM2Q3xZ2t/J/CBCpIVFqbRAEd6LhJH3k=; b=UxduVPDkp5Nziv9aEowFS7f5lB A4auSgzR3HbZJKLLIY//op8YyHKWJKr9UlHjKCfApD8boC1O8YiRtrch5ZAZNux0C5SFmpsMCeGKM RNcj47rPcGT24GY2ZXTr+0sO/fwJYzax9oOpazF7ETEOVw5J6fidAmnI5ccIz6wNP9f9UYJewawLu lJO9UcKuazi8DK0fY2OqOrNzJUFwTkZErRM8vnTCT0biUp8xh5nq2SIa/hAl68Oc3pBfFaNaNVHzv KA1oi/4cQ+iGW9Ey4OeEmIRMfKm0hSsQiTC1vHj4gUEfzq/GScVO/bTU442kxd5K9h6KHMhKkBmDj B+kqlAlg==; Received: from [114.125.105.130] (port=19211 helo=X220.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQXQC-0009k3-Ca; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:47:56 +0700 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:47:53 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: RW via freebsd-questions Cc: RW Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: niaga Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=niaga@out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.21) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5rPfEhfX/e+eau/qjvJ4jb4Xv9krsgRhBn0ayn6qsUc7lVo9zfgzQ4Wl m3+W3UHOX9rPco6cZhqWtwreetY+jpi4Dcwf+CZK8NXgy3In+fX7wY+mY/zG3nFBfzoL2F/hpQff Mg04rRVr2x8M/bymaZseMp6KSn2l4bHrRSeHUTefX2XX9bIsGDSYq5OAASmskWbEBG2scSEjB4Cc a3THUkuAeoVST18YIrGvoMJB7wvj1RtWIyKxUSoREjE/7VNQ8fiB2gGa4NbpRZ4pLIy2KmcXRuWz sGtazoE/vPfv1xaxiyi1TFE9uh6dOpTA08b6wDAs69FQbooXBmqDtpFld11brrwCZzWKieIk7R94 5NtYJWc6Hvk2XXh9/cAOBIKwOHz2xktCmqEq1+cTDToG9TPXXZAqrzYNzV3jEETifN/XfJomEqwE svuvXyGt8JcfF1EP5ysm/cbFtsaIamM3d2CAAuzz2dRpmmBV1pWxSApcaIfVaCHpEB6cFH6WJxE4 ZqmNQns4G4Lu1Z0qkp77KGV6tBzjT2SgBpw0u3YvKwGjMMBJUQdL3+ixbit0Y1f8ajl4lidU1b80 J2t/rYe9m+T+DoqBsC/uQMsclP8aiBJ2SSzm7P5LFQTh7xAIEq/JAOP/OUUiyoxKCnwuNYv1rN5F wMfy0YD5luPp6y0NK5zI21nziFiWzOLtUiLe5xIJsysavtI/BpoTTR0m9vx748g+ePukY31yweyg GiaBPV1Kfqb5R4VemuUI6bcEARsm0ASAg3ACsLVYcMwnzM6V4gQ3iiZtVhbV1vIcdJN0W2QuBIdw bMEc9U7OFQR0XkTUr1ss+n2ffnQxt6aJ7klZab+otuHJEaECIIhJNxMS+c0bF+8gN8ax9LqntRCm aHw627KnGFLUSfQxoCgjbv9bX5I= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine1.antispamcloud.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:25:37 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:13:19 +0000 RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:24:28 +0800 > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > I write this on a machine running FreeBSD 10 with a FireCuda 2TB > > drive, but the 2.5" version. The drive works but its behaviour was > > not what I expected. > > > > The SSD part is too small from my point of view. The drive is really > > fast when working on a project for which all fits into the 8GB SSD > > memory my drive has. It becomes a totally different story when > > compiling the kernel or installing large ports > > My understanding is they weren't intended to work like that. The last > I heard was that the SSD was divided into two, one part specifically > speeds up booting, and the other part caches sectors where the head > had to seek to access a small amount of data. how should a hard disk work? Data is written, data is read. How should this SSHD know where by boot-related data is stored? Why should this disk waste SSD memory for data I need with FreeBSD very rarely? It does not seem to me that it is like this. It is more likely that it uses the 8GB as a write cache. It is very fast before 8GB transfer volume is reached. If I copy a lot, the write speed goes down to 15MB/s and less. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Dec 17 15:00:14 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DB4E8BD03 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D029072C2E for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id g75so25108999wme.0 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 07:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qEarOGBSSmh4Mxc7PypIe0vQTRjw+QZOzR5W0wVFI4o=; b=gmJAfXq3DrIS25kmplEdnvgwc8WoOelxKLSGQB/swZyAo/HFZbtPdEkTOcSMXaM4Ek CQT30fQV0cQcUzC4ol4qYGRWnxmj6gARttT6aPhwIqnv7T2OSJzedh/cZEXSsrjk0x86 +vbImSxOsCNEoz0tG5HBtDnezf+WImHN1uDl0JVfsShfttqXVk8xiDWvaWuyIg+JLPYa lgXQGhz0+L6PDJyqzGQbPRV4/WXrivdJamKw2FmXeF/IKXgrg2OxnrnYroOQCYeP8aYG +uDqfkFf8yofSt7i8pF6x/yOGmUeQLJgbeUNaPXF27THVf4DmJGf90LVBMyPilXtp+Fd Rlpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJoKu/TizWCRQ+vzVMzbGDf9h7TxFdy/kYZ5TDDWxzCU77DTSpk yLJc2SzJ+euJUeyfozGDeDezng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouCQIR///Bl5iwvupyCeU0KNNa4+/IeO2/TgFvmPAtNZyqo6lIbynx981MODYoA73UqNho3tg== X-Received: by 10.80.163.7 with SMTP id 7mr25680986edn.100.1513522811800; Sun, 17 Dec 2017 07:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([81.17.24.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p37sm8844732eda.96.2017.12.17.07.00.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 17 Dec 2017 07:00:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:07 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:14 -0000 On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:47:53 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > > My understanding is they weren't intended to work like that. The > > last I heard was that the SSD was divided into two, one part > > specifically speeds up booting, and the other part caches sectors > > where the head had to seek to access a small amount of data. > > how should a hard disk work? Data is written, data is read. > > How should this SSHD know where by boot-related data is stored? It knows when you boot, it knows the sequence of sectors that were accessed after boot and it can keep statistics about which are accessed on multiple boots. > Why should this disk waste SSD memory for data I need with FreeBSD > very rarely? The sole reason that the first generation of these device was developed was to speed-up the time to boot Windows. > It does not seem to me that it is like this. It's based on an article written a few of years ago by a development engineer. Things have probably moved on a bit, boot time is less important than it was, so they probably cache other frequently read sectors. > It is more likely that it uses the 8GB as a write cache. I think it's unlikely that 8GB of cMLC could survive 5 years of writes to a 2GB hard drive, and if it were designed to work that way I would expect the specs to have a write endurance limit. The article I read said that in stress tests no flash device had failed before the drive failed mechanically, which suggests that writes were very carefully controlled. Seagate's marketing cites faster booting and loading of applications/games; this relies on reading from persistent cache, not write caching. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 18 00:52:36 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8666E9BC2F for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:52:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from mx42-out4.antispamcloud.com (mx42-out4.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68D1D64087 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:52:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from [153.92.8.106] (helo=srv31.niagahoster.com) by mx26.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQjfO-0003PD-93; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 01:52:27 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=9Pkrdhzy0O8qaiOsoGXNG2jIh6wr9ddHg9YcPr4cTrQ=; b=AtO+VJjlVXq1BGIt8y3dtN9H06 2APVygw/2WtXCoZt+zBHxuFSXKXjk8nHnrwnhK6cqce0o/BB/VlbCA+ot2cQiunf2eX4BTuXTtIvw LndBxFxvBSf8tD+XsCD5QJ+yQKBMU8cNBOZz7Fa1WFXEYb+BjNMEGdVZDTYFwzGH6VTd2R6T3u64f A3xRT/kFk4EpKr9AOzUC9nk05wH5ozvKbuKryzcF9md79yWoqrHjJSmGG2wNqlyxhWnKjLImFvFq+ nBj1lTpwkgWTE+4g5l1LRLORnlj5x/4zfESTYTg7qHX89LwRyJVLKuWOmtFfYjeHexT8n0cfp08Fy mWAyE7ZA==; Received: from [114.125.105.130] (port=44126 helo=X220.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eQjfJ-0000vk-MB; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 07:52:21 +0700 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:52:19 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: RW via freebsd-questions Cc: RW Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: niaga Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=niaga@out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.32) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5vY17R81xp7h3sBtIFUbfMnj1g3/PwYZaTCzSym8uE9HvyegFAN3MVG+ 8Mu8M+ESLE+fzSH/OCabdgYrKxSFlmz0WCHdVL2O4JcuP9paLbvfuso5dtSdoXAUjjzTYPx/gefH zJ6mVE7ewsipSVIfs4bo5wJ7gg7Sw50jNyFkchkF4JjiDSrbcmJ1QXhuh4fWduPk3o1hUWKIWEO4 3jMp3dWZ3JKVmi72ocgY5kMQSjs7AS5g9nL+yeFiOR30+l159RWKPIghLmwGUyVWaXZBoLH7aulE 4UMGJwqy5VjVdI9fqrf2ZP1+Zwwo3b6lnMYL2gfMpdRpEyrH+JXw/8Q1obKu6Q7pqsrs1eY87KDr aNch07I5nQsJbJEtNb6LE8ahAUzYcflYKmOcgQfNhixzYT0//FPIxlmUiKdzJHAnWMbZkPduQ+ct q1dOZdSs1GX18F0pFDfWDhVSmolDSVBTw/xjDdT7p8MmjCBE2sIWqW1EV1Ni4VTTxl80eMD4aQuL GLV5sAoXPcEmVTxBegVjPD+tI4g+l6rCWbY0MZcgnbHsnp8bsbepEVPVu7ne/H35X5eDTPk/e5jh EiJrU2IxLPdGGUx7zLXGt+GXZeE28rUuAH8WgFEDFV0anqG3QLhcBU4ypizDIoSI9NimOXTdLw7T PpuFqUUQz+mM8JAD4ECWfSiw4hQSSuVtgqBJ7QGUR38eJjjVS2Yd/pA78YWwzvgX/9giOI75FuUE hiFOkyGPXovHDHmYbuSUgTtSXjeZ1NBj9qFTqW29+hVgN//VZRvJS7aysAufYrbzjGyYaYbJpRwN epoydEtjer9eettxrv1TduFgZxSMBhgPu8KHqEXRf2BFJSOt9mPgLKpjcST0ZJ0Q4x+0GOxZvoEN DONKwcABRoKlYnOoj/Sdd/c8yLR5T2Cy09huISk1GIHBjqQv7pMUGEd7KUcuVEcOwnlEQQ== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine1.antispamcloud.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:52:36 -0000 Hi, On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:07 +0000 RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:47:53 +0800 > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > My understanding is they weren't intended to work like that. The > > > last I heard was that the SSD was divided into two, one part > > > specifically speeds up booting, and the other part caches sectors > > > where the head had to seek to access a small amount of data. > > > > how should a hard disk work? Data is written, data is read. > > > > How should this SSHD know where by boot-related data is stored? > > It knows when you boot, it knows the sequence of sectors that were > accessed after boot and it can keep statistics about which are > accessed on multiple boots. how often do you boot your FreeBSD machine before installing a new kernel? If I boot a machine five times before installing a new kernel, the number is high. > > > Why should this disk waste SSD memory for data I need with FreeBSD > > very rarely? > > The sole reason that the first generation of these device was > developed was to speed-up the time to boot Windows. Yes, and gaming consoles. It seems that the caching algorithm is really optimised for this > > > It does not seem to me that it is like this. > > It's based on an article written a few of years ago by a development > engineer. Things have probably moved on a bit, boot time is less > important than it was, so they probably cache other frequently read > sectors. When I work on a project smaller than 8GB, this disk is fast, real fast. The problem is that the SSD part gets completely wracked when I compile kernel and then the ports I have installed. It might be the case that six months are not enough for the disk to understand to leave these things out of the SSD part. > > > > It is more likely that it uses the 8GB as a write cache. > > > I think it's unlikely that 8GB of cMLC could survive 5 years of writes > to a 2GB hard drive, and if it were designed to work that way I would > expect the specs to have a write endurance limit. > The disk has a limit. The trick on the data sheet is also that Seagate does not specify a life-time for the SSD part itself. It seems Seagate will just replace the disk until five years are over. > The article I read said that in stress tests no flash device had > failed before the drive failed mechanically, which suggests that > writes were very carefully controlled. When you work on a project, data are read and written. So make use of the SSD for the next read operation, the written data has to be also written to the SSD part. > > Seagate's marketing cites faster booting and loading of > applications/games; this relies on reading from persistent cache, not > write caching. Yes. This might works for Windows but not for FreeBSD. Every time a kernel and the world are compiled, the SSD has to be trashed. The same is true when updating the ports tree. In my observation, my first FireCuda did not understand within six months what is program and will be used more often as I update too often. I have not decided for myself to keep this disk for work or use it for backup. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 18 16:13:21 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81964E96F43 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:13:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carmel_ny@outlook.com) Received: from NAM02-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092004080.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.4.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "Microsoft IT SSL SHA2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22CC419E7 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:13:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carmel_ny@outlook.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outlook.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=BmI6bVeIy+EdHDOqI4KUNr8foDQ03+T1+e2qlEElxuc=; b=anxJ6gkwNBV32bn4zMjYBG+vYmZcYR3YRZnIrKCgIRXElOvs4mgMEK/xCfa0KOxNZYNsVH/xkgxyE/l7tbfqXc3/CVX9Iqwn644RzcDuwbA/iKkuEZY/uSOMbWBKYytvqKsyX9gNlGGceRZXvMJt8iDPsd+G20rDE90QgQkzOLJkJaYKiDd6yUeid8AQUPwL/WgB/tJHgr6oKrBqk56cHzcUu7M+cykCzlwFWo4vJahvkiET4pF3KVQbdkgLTNzuwIvXbiAG5ueKgP16VvHZ28xv5hrhfUP0rt7VrtHK5KNxbJg9dQTiGlkn/JLyjoUU9UaV8QMHdDmfCbaXJrewAw== Received: from BL2NAM02FT059.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.76.52) by BL2NAM02HT193.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.77.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.20.302.6; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:13:18 +0000 Received: from BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com (10.152.76.52) by BL2NAM02FT059.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.76.247) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.20.302.6 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:13:18 +0000 Received: from BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.31.146]) by BN6PR2001MB1730.namprd20.prod.outlook.com ([10.172.31.146]) with mapi id 15.20.0323.018; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:13:18 +0000 From: Carmel NY To: FreeBSD Subject: "mount_smbfs" fails after update to Windows 10 Fall Creators Update and Windows Server, version 1709 Thread-Topic: "mount_smbfs" fails after update to Windows 10 Fall Creators Update and Windows Server, version 1709 Thread-Index: AQHTeBsdPRuHfTcA40OQIwHluYjuRg== Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:13:18 +0000 Message-ID: Reply-To: FreeBSD Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:C95E6C00F1ADE339647A08D5FF9654DD51FBF142316579CD50334DA2E5773AE0; 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charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Microsoft removed SMB1 support from their Windows 10 Fall Creators Update a= nd Windows Server, version 1709. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4034314/smbv1-is-not-installed-win= dows-10-and-windows-server-version-1709 "Samba" shares no longer show up in the MS Network, although they can be reached by typing in the address, "\\Bios-Name" in the address bar. I have found a workaround for that however. My problem now is that the "mount_smbfs" command no longer functions. I ass= ume it is trying to use the "SMB1" protocol, although I am not positive. I don't see anyway to force it to use either "SMB2" or "SMB3" instead, if that is in fact the problem. --=20 Carmel --=20 Carmel --Sig_/TEg6aqL4WUwXs1/FJOwzMX7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEh3rFs7ZCOM581rwKjsagALPkYOsFAlo36RoACgkQjsagALPk YOtvngf+NExSKYzQCXQdNQh1VQuI2UOySStZQiffmDuTPFJtZiLANN2SNy6fZrlz 07EqeapRMk3jcIrcae/Zo49XW5DkTKNM5ZkZcePI1pVMnYGI/jZd/gs2arZ++ev3 cZ5h3Fgp8hrozYUBwyGpCUaxpM7d0ySsgbkq/Iykqqz6/VMP1rYzaF4H4wVSHsUk oOTkfAVwoIObdX6iUnxTnYta3gmhkURoruvUXWEbvT3CO93BtC3ncjY4hicUOZYH /DyyENj8zhHKQA51IWwpBjJBVQijd4A5O/vqCHK6L3tFlKdhupKRjtdapFjWayuH gRBq1InmAJ22qVE9/QNeca+2t920pQ== =CL0/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/TEg6aqL4WUwXs1/FJOwzMX7-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 18 16:26:31 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCF3E98164 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wr0-x241.google.com (mail-wr0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E13D625EB for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wr0-x241.google.com with SMTP id h1so14674987wre.12 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:26:30 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jxfKHn8ffXqF7r98AqdzRz42FanoSq2saoH5A8tskd0=; b=pFZn5g3uMNLqVshlytjZNmhoOzzt7jjGmxkWQBcQj9YlTQ16/bj8T/q0Xi+xWqyt0B eECnl7hyecxubNdTEMDbLx4P/jgJLT2sEhR8bjQUtC+w+5HRJjD9Bf+stGuIAg9W2/2v KF47DvQAP1HVLQAeZFslETQO4CYex/Z6bR8eD3K2cCLeENODGOi0k3XUM8U8qQpC86Yl xPO3Fleo2oG6CvWUL8QGr1Wz2LpdDbeJETOu1M96YEb+nF35hRJJ5MGW19Cz6c3jl7zE 813dN2vhinY0yNLWBvO+FdLnhOor4eEUDeGTRLgrt/lhJhCAvGvN1tnAKkZT1g9kRsfM IIBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLZavghSJlM4y1/QdPcB4Kl2HrraevvIHWveATozfvFM86DNC1T Fq48Ci/gI0qJnCOqVqSHwIXJwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosDTucKGz++4aOgbdLzkKU3PNtau5w+wZOKmlVJIcb3g3v010EBmwANekVARhD8GgmOSi2TrQ== X-Received: by 10.223.168.48 with SMTP id l45mr361565wrc.261.1513614389067; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([81.17.24.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w51sm11235512edd.84.2017.12.18.08.26.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:26:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:25 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171218162625.5bcc543e@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:31 -0000 On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:52:19 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:07 +0000 > RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:47:53 +0800 > > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > > > > My understanding is they weren't intended to work like that. The > > > > last I heard was that the SSD was divided into two, one part > > > > specifically speeds up booting, and the other part caches > > > > sectors where the head had to seek to access a small amount of > > > > data. > > > > > > how should a hard disk work? Data is written, data is read. > > > > > > How should this SSHD know where by boot-related data is > > > stored? > > > > It knows when you boot, it knows the sequence of sectors that were > > accessed after boot and it can keep statistics about which are > > accessed on multiple boots. > > how often do you boot your FreeBSD machine before installing a new > kernel? If I boot a machine five times before installing a new kernel, > the number is high. The details of precisely which sectors are cached is not important (although it is important to recognise that Seagate doesn't care about how these devices perform under FreeBSD). What I'm getting at is that previous version of these devices did selective read caching - not write caching. I don't see any reason to think that this has changed - especially when their marketing isn't mentioning it. Even if they are now doing write caching, it's very unlikely that anything like the full 8GB of flash would available for it because you wouldn't want saving a 10GB video file to blow-away the cache. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Dec 18 17:53:20 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8F7E9F969 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:53:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca (inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F1C66F94 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7262A60A67 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:53:13 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hYwFhm5ydThF for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (inet04.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by inet08.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B6AD5604F4 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from 216.185.71.44 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:53:11 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:53:11 -0500 Subject: Font follies From: "James B. Byrne" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.22-5.el6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:53:20 -0000 I have encountered a really strange issue following the installation of a non-standard ttf font into /usr/local/share/fonts/TTF. Briefly, any text formatted to use the new font simply disappears from the OpenOffice Writer document it is used in; except when that text is bracketed by some other font. For example the following text is formatted with DejaVu Serif 12pot in a Writer document: A TEST of many things of fonts and scripts and ceiling wax and coleslaw and kings If I highlight 'of fonts and scripts and ceiling wax' and change the font to the font I am having the difficulty with then this is what I see: A TEST of many things and coleslaw and kings But the text is still there. Copying and pasting the text block as displayed above gives this in a simple text editor: A TEST of many things of fonts and scripts and ceiling wax and coleslaw and kings If instead, however, I change the font of just the word 'scripts' to the problem font then I see the word in the desired font, albeit is a much, much smaller point size than I expected. Does anyone here have any idea of what is going on and how to correct it? -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Dec 19 00:15:14 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E702E94E66 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:15:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from mx42-out4.antispamcloud.com (mx42-out4.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC66078848 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:15:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from [153.92.8.106] (helo=srv31.niagahoster.com) by mx6.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eR5Yq-0007FG-1V; 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Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:14:21 +0700 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 08:14:18 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: RW via freebsd-questions Cc: RW Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171219081418.5672730b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <20171218162625.5bcc543e@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171218162625.5bcc543e@gumby.homeunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: niaga Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=niaga@out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.22) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5sNfJrniNOahTX1nd9ng1QDj1g3/PwYZaTCzSym8uE9HvyegFAN3MVG+ 8Mu8M+ESLE+fzSH/OCabdgYrKxSFlmz0WCHdVL2O4JcuP9paLbvfuso5dtSdoXAUjjzTYPx/gefH zJ6mVE7ewsipSVIfs4YuRlP/jKGz9SMlk+pI4GKD4JjiDSrbcmJ1QXhuh4fWdhzVbG/CVUn5REsZ 3CrjMGEhEWyJzIkwSFAW0Pw8uiKe14ngzVsz7019I2tmW3YF86PBphix6rk/5xxWln4AvZltui3/ twGGymTQ9M9nInMiBoXyGXjGdVgfBZmYS7ZpB6O5TPqzGal/PlyCuaPMa+bDhSDwOaK4Wi1ekn/R KJ5v/GvqX3R1xq5AWRLKWJ/8M9OeOTSfoIBIa+iKhc8s+nGL+8LUGUdqDrPZ3aG8sVuyrcJVKk1J 0UdB/2NbTS6jAye18MkVkPDU4C/+kA7pihpZV3dtOujd0u9IxxpxaVgxjgfwGgrYhdwYhTRuciSX R9K7q2rWRu2bEDBrn9XCvqoBIkUL/j1Y48GvmeURQjjEwiLQvYmDWqg4h9lm6q5KHuPS+ou/4rRJ AGavNe79jObUnL7cHjHrU1Uwrx3kMoqQAH8WgFEDFV0anqG3QLhcBU4ypizDIoSI9NimOXTdLw7T PpuFqUUQz+mM8JAD4ECWfSiw4hQSSuVtgqBJ7QGUR0ZPakfwMy7OJBElXjLSJzDczDv+ct0JxRwc HDf4uxZsXovHDHmYbuSUgTtSXjeZ1NBj9qFTqW29+hVgN//VZRvJS7aysAufYrbzjGyYaYbJpRwN epoydEtjer9eettxrv1TduFgZxSMBhgPu8KHqEXRf2BFJSOt9mPgLKpjcST0ZJ0Q4x+0GOxZvoEN DONKwcABRoKlYnOoj/Sdd/c8yLR5T2Cy09huISk1GIHBjqQv7pMUGEd7KUcuVEcOwnlEQQ== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine1.antispamcloud.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:15:14 -0000 Hi, On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:25 +0000 RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:52:19 +0800 > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:00:07 +0000 > > RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:47:53 +0800 > > > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is they weren't intended to work like that. > > > > > The last I heard was that the SSD was divided into two, one > > > > > part specifically speeds up booting, and the other part caches > > > > > sectors where the head had to seek to access a small amount of > > > > > data. > > > > > > > > how should a hard disk work? Data is written, data is read. > > > > > > > > How should this SSHD know where by boot-related data is > > > > stored? > > > > > > It knows when you boot, it knows the sequence of sectors that were > > > accessed after boot and it can keep statistics about which are > > > accessed on multiple boots. > > > > how often do you boot your FreeBSD machine before installing a new > > kernel? If I boot a machine five times before installing a new > > kernel, the number is high. > > > > The details of precisely which sectors are cached is not important > (although it is important to recognise that Seagate doesn't care about > how these devices perform under FreeBSD). > > What I'm getting at is that previous version of these devices did > selective read caching - not write caching. I don't see any reason to > think that this has changed - especially when their marketing isn't > mentioning it. > > Even if they are now doing write caching, it's very unlikely that > anything like the full 8GB of flash would available for it because you > wouldn't want saving a 10GB video file to blow-away the cache. > Seagate is very silent about how the FireCuda actually stores data on the disk. It uses a technology called SMR. This results in a higher track density but direct writes are impossible. A short term solution is reading all data of a set of tracks into RAM, changing the data there and write it all out. But what will you do when new data keeps flooding in? The drives can now use a reserved space of the disk to store the data. On long writes, this space will also be filled. The drives uses then the SSD part as a write cache in my observation. It could be also that the disk fills first SSD and then the reserved space. The drives keep a high write speed until a certain transfer volume is reached. The drives then take a deep breath - maybe they try to write the data stored in the SSD to disk - and then continue with around 15MB/s You can read about SMR here: http://www.tomsitpro.com/articles/shingled-magnetic-recoding-smr-101-basics,2-933.html It looks to me that the SSD part is used as a write cache depending on the transfer volume. I also noticed that the current version of the data sheet does not have a transfer volume specified anymore. Anyway, will not find it out as Seagate keeps very quiet about it. Erich From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Dec 19 12:17:03 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635DEEA47A6 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:17:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bounce_49254060+a.11a6977c3bcb76c1_11699e4bf800b15_v51@zcsend.net) Received: from sendera51.zcsend.net (sendera51.zcsend.net [135.84.81.51]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAF775BDF for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:17:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bounce_49254060+a.11a6977c3bcb76c1_11699e4bf800b15_v51@zcsend.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=zcp024; d=zcsend.net; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:List-Unsubscribe; bh=frhY2WJEUCku/LCsg5nO7Xkqyls=; b=jEg7aMvC3KUif1v9hHT3TYcGlUsS0WRMsEnBGq0N5u85VWtXERbGzr6z7UmLZ/Ahd9uG4mOc7pkE 8KoD3IxaJzp+qEzDa5hFR7Q16tzkvsVI5p7EV5NGtq7v0q8C6BngHspxEsFIX4t+a97L7nIKMLOg 6J1jVjWXoWFKxap1x0Q= Received: from [172.30.235.68] (172.30.235.68) by sendera51.zcsend.net id h741ju28epgj for ; 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Tue, 19 Dec 2017 05:55:16 -0800 (PST) From: =?UTF-8?B?5riF5rW36YOt?= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 05:55:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: w2324695870@gmail.com To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:55:18 -0000 Gmail.com>_ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Dec 19 14:46:11 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9D1E87ADA for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:46:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 584627B8B5 for ; 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Tue, 19 Dec 2017 06:46:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([81.17.24.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h56sm12770184eda.97.2017.12.19.06.46.08 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 19 Dec 2017 06:46:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:46:06 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171219144606.0217ee55@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20171219081418.5672730b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171218162625.5bcc543e@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171219081418.5672730b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:46:11 -0000 On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 08:14:18 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 08:14:18 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:25 +0000 > RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > > The details of precisely which sectors are cached is not important > > (although it is important to recognise that Seagate doesn't care > > about how these devices perform under FreeBSD). > > > > What I'm getting at is that previous version of these devices did > > selective read caching - not write caching. I don't see any reason > > to think that this has changed - especially when their marketing > > isn't mentioning it. > > > > Even if they are now doing write caching, it's very unlikely that > > anything like the full 8GB of flash would available for it because > > you wouldn't want saving a 10GB video file to blow-away the > > cache. > Seagate is very silent about how the FireCuda actually stores data on > the disk. It uses a technology called SMR. ... > The drives can now use a reserved space of the disk to store the data. > On long writes, this space will also be filled. It's unlikely that it would fall back to discarding useful cache in the SSD *after* filling the larger non-shingled area of the drive. If that bit of extra buffering made a useful difference they'd just increase the size of the non-shingled area. > It could be also that > the disk fills first SSD and then the reserved space. If that happened I'd expect the speed to first drop to an intermediate speed of 50-100 MB/s, where the the non-shingled area is being written to, and then drop again when the non-shingled area fills. IMO what you are seeing is consistent with selective read caching plus write caching into the non-shingled area. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Dec 19 19:34:42 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FE2E9AA6B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:34:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lopez@f-leads.com) Received: from IND01-MA1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ma1ind01on0104.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.100.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "Microsoft IT SSL SHA2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E50DB67A2D for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:34:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lopez@f-leads.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT2437315.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fleads-com0c; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=po6ysgKiSmh0kiRHMZYds5hCwrjarcPumQV+C+7Gkx4=; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:PN1PR01MB0638; H:PN1PR01MB0640.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: f-leads.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: f-leads.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 230947a8-9e9e-4a66-d836-08d547178ab9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Dec 2017 19:34:34.9580 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 10d42f6f-1cc3-4240-bc4e-ddc259a1e015 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PN1PR01MB0638 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:34:42 -0000 Hi, Did you get a chance to review my previous email? Let me know if we can sch= edule a call to discuss further. Look forward to hearing back Regards, Lopez From: Lopez evans Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 1:10 PM To: 'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org' Subject: Compliance Management Hi, Would you be interested in an email leads of Compliance Executives? We can = help you reach out to. Title includes: > Chief Compliance Officer > VP Compliance > Compliance Manager > Compliance Officer The list comes with complete contact information like Contact name, Email a= ddress, Title, Company name, Phone number, Mailing address, etc. I'd be happy to send over few sample records on your request, and set up a = time to discuss in detail. If there is someone else in your organization that I need to speak with, I'= d be grateful if you would forward this email to the appropriate contact an= d help me with the introduction. Have a great day! Regards, Lopez Evans / Info Solutions If you don't wish to receive emails from us reply back with "Leave out". From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Dec 19 20:09:21 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67CEE9CCDF for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@expolist.us) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E86B69442 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@expolist.us) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 796E9E9CCDC; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790D7E9CCDB for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:09:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@expolist.us) Received: from mail-pf0-x244.google.com (mail-pf0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D4F969440 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:09:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@expolist.us) Received: by mail-pf0-x244.google.com with SMTP id j124so11595820pfc.2 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:09:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=expolist-us.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:thread-index :content-language:disposition-notification-to; bh=Q2vySpY5McmJoe5d6k9RsuMEB4X92Wva1I3gyKTYrXQ=; b=mRRt9I0YKmIyEuNk8NUvvNA9LxVkHf41+ty7eaaEK02DYCF7QxmMZrxm7tdkW3oVn8 x6chm/ciS3NmznhJIaCe2d1qwxKQQNSc07PeKiDE5UThL/z813yIrMdRYIqOMCEwmn5f cYdHDmKZE4kvCXow/Qd6Y70s6QqZ+23c2KeDUje2nEDfvcGWSZgLS0dqIj4CvDvylzgb SI56/kK7DZxW8YRCBLPs6mP7ycVAH7BSixx88zWfl30NpGGfI2i5bbEp9YyMSllzCuZQ OszhkfuU89zrjeMztkI7A2Osa/XZUWHrT0CPUzH52Ekm4aRTKE9YluJR3+GypvL3aTQe MnTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language:disposition-notification-to; bh=Q2vySpY5McmJoe5d6k9RsuMEB4X92Wva1I3gyKTYrXQ=; b=KgVtdnqUmOriEKsnU2uO4wZs3IGf8CgC9Gu5l4QCXEmVR+0Rck27gVc7FYtdXPJ8ND MusBWcbHwZjGHR3WZPMSRQPqQaIVURbGutymfzpjyVFcaXENZa19yn1gC2pPuTg/QdFm L6Mna/8ZOzYEL2wulteoRl0LRF6Vj0DC00VN1MGcb+jSazB7pr1uZlGaffVmXQtkqNwo SW+D44ChkmL97puDS9q//irSUsatnjyZEAZokRT6Aus4Hi77d4ZLkY0kncpkkDptdshE hTmNpvCq9j8dIfXDtZD0DFNhpp7Z+4zcniNBZj7aOrRNM0NbBY/Vnmp54zDR82tyKDtq FlvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mK5al6dMxYq0HR/oKYYRLL7KKGiATbSNCWBzTcjPDPz+XTwCPIl 6VYcBRjMCE4s0c9MAdjOvOWM3M4R X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosSjHsPaEj8vK14iPZFntaSFkYUXxRcLbALlOl+2DJRKHTeq/EqaanUVjzv5Bkew44SvDgRDA== X-Received: by 10.98.36.199 with SMTP id k68mr4310376pfk.236.1513714159845; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from homePC ([116.75.74.60]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h69sm31667793pfe.107.2017.12.19.12.09.18 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:09:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Bob Clift" To: Subject: Atlanta International Gift and Home Furnishings Market - 2018 ATTENDEES' LIST Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 15:09:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdN5BT6SPoqKI+naT1uKUV0o8c+eGg== Content-Language: en-us Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:09:21 -0000 Hi, I believe that you are one of the Exhibitors of upcoming event " Atlanta International Gift and Home Furnishings Market - 2018" held on 11th - 15th January 2018 |Atlanta, GA, USA. If you are interested in acquiring the attendees list of Atlanta International Gift and Home Furnishings Market - 2018 please reply to this email and I shall revert back with pricing, counts and other deliverables. Thank you and I look forward to hear from you soon. Regards, Bob Clift| Inside Sales, USA & Europe| Email bob@expolist.us "If you don't wish to receive emails from us reply back with LEAVE OUT" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 02:53:59 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1D5E8D6BC for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 02:53:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from mx6-out9.antispamcloud.com (mx6-out9.antispamcloud.com [95.211.2.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 962A57840A for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 02:53:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com) Received: from [153.92.8.106] (helo=srv31.niagahoster.com) by mx12.antispamcloud.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eRUVw-0006VD-FY; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 03:53:50 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sumeritec.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/DCzP+4vBE2O8/PoF4MVjFj8yIbSbY/8P+hA7AHK7XE=; b=dwzvtX2xirOUzsHcrayRGcC6GX sWCkGVVjODYfGEasuS8e0K0+kNOJTPfQwDQyqSdAbcgkXw2zq8GcfRwr1UXpbLspkiCQbvd2APnXy MLCDboDFN+aPxhFTDvcU4dHQmw1IQ3cWxfs7M0GjOIWs5MvD/edxoGPqCadRukySigNjq5T6mWf8G SoVmr1eQu4FcgD2dHhOwaUcgkDu7UFV48yqTsiPvp/oqrTqu463OtIVg4DXGPqHJqfOGu+XgW4yIc WjLRHDR3p4qeGQmzy+lspO6WJC7dyHWENe3LvbJLQ2vFRf/W6oogJQWUnGU+OYErsWDWazhnIUgzQ tZpj7Ucw==; Received: from [114.125.121.92] (port=52846 helo=X220.sumeritec.com) by srv31.niagahoster.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eRUVD-0007Ki-51; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:53:03 +0700 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:53:00 +0800 From: Erich Dollansky To: RW via freebsd-questions Cc: RW Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171220105300.1497c3a9.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> In-Reply-To: <20171219144606.0217ee55@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171218162625.5bcc543e@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171219081418.5672730b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171219144606.0217ee55@gumby.homeunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AuthUser: freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com X-Originating-IP: 153.92.8.106 X-AntiSpamCloud-Domain: out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Username: niaga Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass (login) smtp.auth=niaga@out.niagahoster.com X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-AntiSpamCloud-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.11) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: EX5BVjFpneJeBchSMxfU5hyKAmpOAywWnKgmsgsjY6Dj1g3/PwYZaTCzSym8uE9HvyegFAN3MVG+ 8Mu8M+ESLE+fzSH/OCabdgYrKxSFlmz0WCHdVL2O4JcuP9paLbvfuso5dtSdoXAUjjzTYPx/gefH zJ6mVE7ewsipSVIfs4Yp4ZO7cHKiK1QEoxZ1HWjp4JjiDSrbcmJ1QXhuh4fWds4AClmYiZ6wOVNy ZYWty2yZ3JKVmi72ocgY5kMQSjs7AS5g9nL+yeFiOR30+l159RWKPIghLmwGUyVWaXZBoLH7aulE 4UMGJwqy5VjVdI9fqrf2ZP1+Zwwo3b6lnMYL2gfMpdRpEyrH+JXw/8Q1obKu6Q7pqsrs1eY87KDr aNch07I5nQsJbJEtNb6LE8ahAUzYcflYKmOcgQfNhixzYT0//FPIxlmUiKdzJHAnWMbZkPduQ+ct q1dOZdSs1GX18F0pFDfWDhVSmolDSVBTw/xjDdT7p8MmjCBE2sIWqW1EV1Ni4VTTxl80eMD4aQuL GLV5sAoXPcEmVTxBegVjPD+tI4g+l6rCWbY0MZcgnbHsDPVWtcFrNvokDo6JQ0681tSXzqC/7IVp Tfw2ZOvaQhcvaqySszGEw+/0KcZ21l3rAH8WgFEDFV0anqG3QLhcBU4ypizDIoSI9NimOXTdLw7T PpuFqUUQz+mM8JAD4ECWfSiw4hQSSuVtgqBJ7QGUR/8gtlH3SZZE7bUqu+fwfPGfS6VMos18TJnB YzoMz7N0XovHDHmYbuSUgTtSXjeZ1NBj9qFTqW29+hVgN//VZRvJS7aysAufYrbzjGyYaYbJpRwN epoydEtjer9eettxrv1TduFgZxSMBhgPu8KHqEXRf2BFJSOt9mPgLKpjcST0ZJ0Q4x+0GOxZvoEN DONKwcABRoKlYnOoj/Sdd/c8yLR5T2Cy09huISk1GIHBjqQv7pMUGEd7KUcuVEcOwnlEQQ== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine1.antispamcloud.com X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 02:54:00 -0000 Hi, On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:46:06 +0000 RW via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 08:14:18 +0800 > Erich Dollansky wrote: > > > The drives can now use a reserved space of the disk to store the > > data. On long writes, this space will also be filled. > > It's unlikely that it would fall back to discarding useful cache in > the SSD *after* filling the larger non-shingled area of the drive. If > that bit of extra buffering made a useful difference they'd just > increase the size of the non-shingled area. how to increase the non-shingled area without shrinking the drive's available size? > > > It could be also that > > the disk fills first SSD and then the reserved space. > > If that happened I'd expect the speed to first drop to an intermediate > speed of 50-100 MB/s, where the the non-shingled area is being written > to, and then drop again when the non-shingled area fills. > > IMO what you are seeing is consistent with selective read caching plus > write caching into the non-shingled area. How do you explain then the deep breath? What do I call a deep breath? An access which takes more than a minute. It only happens when huge amounts of data is written to the drive like updating sources and ports tree and then starting to compile them. I first thought that the first drive is faulty. But the second shows the same behaviour. Since these things are finished, the drive behaves basically like an SSD. Erich > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 08:48:59 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D881AE9FFB8 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:48:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@mauras.ch) Received: from smtp.mauras.ch (smtp.mauras.ch [163.172.199.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E9BB634BF for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:48:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@mauras.ch) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mauras.ch; s=20160502; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Message-Id:Subject:To:From:Date: Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=4fhx5woEwPOd+vuBlhDzryeLLk6FAG8P6T9VZd82sgY=; b=SCBbraZaHza01ZuatrhrHqdAR8 JLrZ9lQrYvKrQzDdN+x0w6uTrY9rIs6ulA13lCOCGGkkKnEqGD+LwA+hrvp+SxZXwWiZyFC4s9i0z BPc4HALgXlemCP2QSJ6gftDN9ue4b7w8LXc4OV/0l4aycpNfXvOXaEtNhnkA8NOVNzn8=; Received: from 109-203-40-206.static.voenergies.net ([109.203.40.206] helo=tiptop) by smtp.mauras.ch with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eRZgn-0006lo-Ub for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:25:22 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:25:15 +0100 From: Olivier Mauras To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: pf NAT: Can't make anything else than ICMP work Message-Id: <20171220092515.e0a757a560781ddead2d92d1@mauras.ch> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.6.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA256"; boundary="Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_09_25_15_+0100_7SRJvO0azut/kxLG" X-Authenticated-Sender: olivier@mauras.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:48:59 -0000 --Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_09_25_15_+0100_7SRJvO0azut/kxLG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I can't seem to make this very simple setup work. I have a VM that have 2 i= nterfaces on two different subnets and want to route traffic between them. - 10.60.0.0/24 - 192.168.0.0/24 The 10.60.x.x interface gives access to local services and internet. 192.168.x.x is a dedicated local subnet using this VM as their default gate= way If that matters, 10.60.x.x interface is a lagg interface between two physic= al interfaces using KVM PCI passthrough while 192.168.x.x is a virtio inter= face. gateway_enable is indeed set and I've added this very simple pf rule: #### ext_if=3D"lagg0" nat log on $ext_if proto { tcp udp icmp } from !($ext_if) to any -> ($ext_i= f) pass all=20 #### This let machines on the 192.168.0.0 subnet using this VM as a gateway ping= any ressources on 10.60.0.0 or internet. Fine. Problem is that any other protocol doesn't work. Seems like replies are nev= er received correctly by the issuing machine. This is the state table I get when issuing DNS connection from a client (19= 2.168.100.2) behind the GW to either 10.60.60.150 or 8.8.8.8 DNS servers. 10.60.60.3 is my GW address on 10.60.0.0 subnet on lagg0 interface. #### # pfctl -ss all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- 192.168.100.2:53372 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:62261 (192.168.100.2:53372) -> 10.60.60.150:53 SIN= GLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- 192.168.100.2:28768 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:65271 (192.168.100.2:28768) -> 10.60.60.150:53 SIN= GLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:43155 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:50948 (192.168.100.2:43155) -> 8.8.8.8:53 SINGLE:N= O_TRAFFIC all udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:47160 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:62818 (192.168.100.2:47160) -> 8.8.8.8:53 SINGLE:N= O_TRAFFIC I believe that I'm missing a very simple obvious thing but cannot point it = out. Thanks, -O. --Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_09_25_15_+0100_7SRJvO0azut/kxLG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIyBAEBCAAdFiEEhdCcMcx2wDxNPQTeldDBUc+t03wFAlo6HmsACgkQldDBUc+t 03xZ1w/45RJSxFasJHYPMSEOGLFC4sKdQH5/IfIaE8OBvBfk45JYC3tEwPhb5+jP /8Y2+Ch48GRNZgL5ygLPutiKXe3H7gK3LL8IEIW40fdc2OpsoW64TWK0jBdzLs2D FzqWtNPuE6SWFtxHYNqds9Kzkx3HT1KvEoh6dFB1FSax/XM7gmKHF2g+NNm2/8sQ 2vwQD5bLn7ioYOcKOnYV8Xr9WX06pf5mHEzzMGiM6SXgLmMZzO4vBDLDnwIWWYDH 03UnERUEtn0FNIlMOTwXYF+k111XnOn310nl9bSgZaEk55BfeaSSctmHjKL4fYHQ S207nPT8IENF1GN5iGyiZ12TfPNA35l4uO6CZJfAUZBPoLJIj2Sf5SfeLu0oYrii SGaEZZkHSxxuE6YEEMaHrkcLy4aE1m2C6OJseoSvSGByQqGGHHNkKkXIrO52dfKv xkBasj8m1/Sr02N0fFYZHJPYpHBPPLEamQZ1HFGFq1qoG7npdUrDj5OrH9JduoX8 v6FAnDXovmsn3E6ovPWdJCxoVTJPtnr6BS8dYaVvdQImj9+W1yswhjJoQ/58XxgN HjGU+9t1fdQO0xlyFqbIoah4QM7HD6O2kduBJFZ6aY4e0sp8sOqoftZkA74mgY39 JRuSf7AGvyd+cHJJQzQbHWalekVvKIU6ywZJxRGDZsXhgnkPHQ== =zm1d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_09_25_15_+0100_7SRJvO0azut/kxLG-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 14:13:38 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C7BEE8B501 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:13:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CC846EF47 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:13:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id g75so10221848wme.0 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 06:13:37 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MUz7OM1qcfgk0R19wqQT3/yiorLr5dGr6nelHTQ8Puc=; b=bfsPjuTItAdSliSRgUtE8901tfbkXFayYPcg8tccogxgBjV70NDiHs/Bj8dOXqDsQK qzC00GSldlYdl+bg6bFD/0R6kHCqI82gTHNMGNmSTF42KSs6Ny10nTsyuzzeVtBwlSTu zl9VoGlQHydrrj6ATKpRt4ELiv60drMRwwoRxq7yoL/XCsK+TPeWPN7py8YvyFIycYz/ ab57ngGgNMYADWg6NWHPAGpHLsuqkVX0A2fZMaDZ9JmvRNso7zV1m2y3Mly1aca1+DFp fm7RHpGFf17lfinPluqyHjkOaBRMqqhd37knNFOqMD315MwF7tqo41FNSbKP9gO2nhkK FJPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLhCnCPQyXKaPP5XgI/6vm73iqwTl6d4lWknlruDaaw6Ve8DXUZ Nhd4EYRX2tvfD3AZ1dKEj+Ax2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotTdzKVzMK/YlpOPefcg1aMO31LoRnFB9mCOEFmhSHakVTifP6/dvi3FTt3nt1VAUPgO3pHkQ== X-Received: by 10.80.220.132 with SMTP id r4mr534676edk.180.1513779215673; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 06:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([81.17.24.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a38sm14175067edf.3.2017.12.20.06.13.34 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 20 Dec 2017 06:13:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:13:32 +0000 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hd firecuda Message-ID: <20171220141332.3fa53ab5@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20171220105300.1497c3a9.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> References: <1513447749.62024.1.camel@yandex.com> <20171217112428.150d8041.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217111319.6a1af590@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171217194753.3ab59e6d.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171217150007.642efc20@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171218085219.2fec7c3b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171218162625.5bcc543e@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171219081418.5672730b.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> <20171219144606.0217ee55@gumby.homeunix.com> <20171220105300.1497c3a9.freebsd.ed.lists@sumeritec.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:13:38 -0000 On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:53:00 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:46:06 +0000 > RW via freebsd-questions wrote: . On long writes, this space will also be filled. > > > > It's unlikely that it would fall back to discarding useful cache in > > the SSD *after* filling the larger non-shingled area of the drive. > > If that bit of extra buffering made a useful difference they'd just > > increase the size of the non-shingled area. > > how to increase the non-shingled area without shrinking the drive's > available size? They'd design it with the right size in the first place using their experience with ordinary shingled drives. > > IMO what you are seeing is consistent with selective read caching > > plus write caching into the non-shingled area. > > How do you explain then the deep breath? What do I call a deep breath? > An access which takes more than a minute. It only happens when huge > amounts of data is written to the drive like updating sources and > ports tree and then starting to compile them. Any explanation you have involving buffering writes through flash also fits buffering through the non-shingled area. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 14:51:36 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7C6E8DAA3 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:51:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from g.lister@nodeunit.ch) Received: from nodeunit.com (mx01.nodeunit.ca [192.186.89.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7C5721B5 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:51:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from g.lister@nodeunit.ch) Received: from xel (x140e.local.home [10.11.11.4]) by nodeunit.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDC4E2857; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:43:19 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:43:21 -0500 From: George To: Olivier Mauras Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pf NAT: Can't make anything else than ICMP work Message-ID: <20171220094321.3400bf74@xel> In-Reply-To: <20171220092515.e0a757a560781ddead2d92d1@mauras.ch> References: <20171220092515.e0a757a560781ddead2d92d1@mauras.ch> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.3 (GTK+ 2.24.23; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:51:36 -0000 On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:25:15 +0100 Olivier Mauras wrote: > Hello, > > I can't seem to make this very simple setup work. I have a VM that > have 2 interfaces on two different subnets and want to route traffic > between them. > - 10.60.0.0/24 > - 192.168.0.0/24 > > The 10.60.x.x interface gives access to local services and internet. > 192.168.x.x is a dedicated local subnet using this VM as their > default gateway > > If that matters, 10.60.x.x interface is a lagg interface between two > physical interfaces using KVM PCI passthrough while 192.168.x.x is a > virtio interface. > > gateway_enable is indeed set and I've added this very simple pf rule: > #### > ext_if="lagg0" > nat log on $ext_if proto { tcp udp icmp } from !($ext_if) to any -> > ($ext_if) pass all > #### I would suggest to enable logging to see what is going on on the pflog0, plus I think your nat rule is a bit strange try the standard: nat on $ext_if from $local_net to any -> $ext_addr HTH, George > > This let machines on the 192.168.0.0 subnet using this VM as a > gateway ping any ressources on 10.60.0.0 or internet. Fine. Problem > is that any other protocol doesn't work. Seems like replies are never > received correctly by the issuing machine. > > This is the state table I get when issuing DNS connection from a > client (192.168.100.2) behind the GW to either 10.60.60.150 or > 8.8.8.8 DNS servers. 10.60.60.3 is my GW address on 10.60.0.0 subnet > on lagg0 interface. #### # pfctl -ss > all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- 192.168.100.2:53372 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE > all udp 10.60.60.3:62261 (192.168.100.2:53372) -> > 10.60.60.150:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- > 192.168.100.2:28768 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:65271 > (192.168.100.2:28768) -> 10.60.60.150:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all > udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:43155 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp > 10.60.60.3:50948 (192.168.100.2:43155) -> 8.8.8.8:53 > SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:47160 > NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:62818 (192.168.100.2:47160) -> > 8.8.8.8:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC > > I believe that I'm missing a very simple obvious thing but cannot > point it out. > > Thanks, > -O. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 15:05:08 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA9EE8E5D7 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:05:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@mauras.ch) Received: from smtp.mauras.ch (smtp.mauras.ch [163.172.199.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EF55728B1 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:05:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivier@mauras.ch) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mauras.ch; s=20160502; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-Id: Subject:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=+/tiJLwJ5Z7Plcty0mWwn/nbvzAxa9Ng+esxTeT48WY=; b=eHtOit2Ql6/e3JuSo/ghdgwUYE BdobYniLUb0VnG6sWolJDNKXdQNuBvutwidOWfPDpQlq8W6pKfKQIHitj3kJFDWofQJ9nWHm9kkMo 1rmnlHnGowBluNP3OxHyn3+sM+vvTUWbj2CvaTz3hsQQFJ41FppE8hcwILLi4w6PrQRc=; Received: from 109-203-40-206.static.voenergies.net ([109.203.40.206] helo=tiptop) by smtp.mauras.ch with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eRftQ-0000AP-CJ for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:02:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:02:20 +0100 From: Olivier Mauras To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pf NAT: Can't make anything else than ICMP work Message-Id: <20171220160220.d8d718563209a8506a8e29aa@mauras.ch> In-Reply-To: <20171220094321.3400bf74@xel> References: <20171220092515.e0a757a560781ddead2d92d1@mauras.ch> <20171220094321.3400bf74@xel> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.6.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg="PGP-SHA256"; boundary="Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_16_02_20_+0100_pt=.yiD79Dp1oSre" X-Authenticated-Sender: olivier@mauras.ch X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:05:08 -0000 --Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_16_02_20_+0100_pt=.yiD79Dp1oSre Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello George, Thanks for your reply. The nat rule gives the exact same behaviour. Logging enabled gives me the same result as a standard tcpdump actually. I = see packets going out but replies never come back. Thanks, -O. On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:43:21 -0500 George wrote: > On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:25:15 +0100 > Olivier Mauras wrote: >=20 > > Hello, > >=20 > > I can't seem to make this very simple setup work. I have a VM that > > have 2 interfaces on two different subnets and want to route traffic > > between them. > > - 10.60.0.0/24 > > - 192.168.0.0/24 > >=20 > > The 10.60.x.x interface gives access to local services and internet. > > 192.168.x.x is a dedicated local subnet using this VM as their > > default gateway > >=20 > > If that matters, 10.60.x.x interface is a lagg interface between two > > physical interfaces using KVM PCI passthrough while 192.168.x.x is a > > virtio interface. > >=20 > > gateway_enable is indeed set and I've added this very simple pf rule: > > #### > > ext_if=3D"lagg0" > > nat log on $ext_if proto { tcp udp icmp } from !($ext_if) to any -> > > ($ext_if) pass all=20 > > #### >=20 > I would suggest to enable logging to see what is going on on the pflog0, > plus I think your nat rule is a bit strange try the standard: >=20 > nat on $ext_if from $local_net to any -> $ext_addr >=20 > HTH, > George >=20 >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > This let machines on the 192.168.0.0 subnet using this VM as a > > gateway ping any ressources on 10.60.0.0 or internet. Fine. Problem > > is that any other protocol doesn't work. Seems like replies are never > > received correctly by the issuing machine. > >=20 > > This is the state table I get when issuing DNS connection from a > > client (192.168.100.2) behind the GW to either 10.60.60.150 or > > 8.8.8.8 DNS servers. 10.60.60.3 is my GW address on 10.60.0.0 subnet > > on lagg0 interface. #### # pfctl -ss > > all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- 192.168.100.2:53372 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE > > all udp 10.60.60.3:62261 (192.168.100.2:53372) -> > > 10.60.60.150:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- > > 192.168.100.2:28768 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:65271 > > (192.168.100.2:28768) -> 10.60.60.150:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all > > udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:43155 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp > > 10.60.60.3:50948 (192.168.100.2:43155) -> 8.8.8.8:53 > > SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:47160 > > NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:62818 (192.168.100.2:47160) -> > > 8.8.8.8:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC > >=20 > > I believe that I'm missing a very simple obvious thing but cannot > > point it out. > >=20 > > Thanks, > > -O. > >=20 >=20 --Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_16_02_20_+0100_pt=.yiD79Dp1oSre Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEhdCcMcx2wDxNPQTeldDBUc+t03wFAlo6e3wACgkQldDBUc+t 03xQ3A//RDuG2Y1t2t96c49bWP2Iz/hMLnbaM00QRgp6Tj4qhIT4WN16Lb/z1LLw 5KN5T/3e++NIbCn0LzfqWzqGalRL9jwSiho+r5uWdM1M5TJ/fRMPrpNW+iTcIiHh iTJIZIEXHpfEP1L2A2VIhsH8r6pwO701P3GFPY5KryMaWMMaxfbujBYPxVGjHpUn 1mxq5zF+6LxxRg+3wR/34K03OpFj8H2qCzEpTp0+8W4ZZGNwgoxu1E8Pn36UmaXP h3bfNPFza64aDjvhMgR5UDrBnAM7TrADHp9f63sOYEsUnrMbPOlNUPtJPvafEOB7 HdTl95v+do+QPY0Gl+94k0FlndvfjkKPSA4YNEGSrFYtnpYrmZNtWqic3hRY8Wdh KNfbi4xse1PYYHqpWLTrKtNVAkVInygSJmrstf3nntUoUYsKzzhQa4E8DZlTkaAP p1g0L/agdO6oj9zhwLcDuIo7ENloqkDvns3fSu11IymAi9NoV1o1ejqhTY+Qoihd 3pAZoGBsI+7BvDlpBadoZjmdwX57HUGX3KUFMfaA6l+jZklMEETVncvzAV5Buu2l rA9rHAaiuFZxlVJ/0Z0PM32bhqWLUQZbjdFO4iH/qBYofn2HcGCqT9sKaVEYos1U rKcRyRXkdOj6dfvY5o3PzAPN9uQOBY9fYUW6m4za7aYuu1+xxwQ= =wO02 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Signature=_Wed__20_Dec_2017_16_02_20_+0100_pt=.yiD79Dp1oSre-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 15:29:13 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90224E8FBCB for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:29:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohartmann@walstatt.org) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC23A7397B for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:29:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohartmann@walstatt.org) Received: from hermann ([141.89.176.204]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LvPgd-1f9MyU1LZT-010fh7 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:29:09 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:29:08 +0100 From: "Hartmann, O." To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: printing problems: CUPS, claws-mail, firefox and xpdf-4 Message-ID: <20171220162908.445ef8c6@hermann> Organization: walstatt.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:fWZWnjz4F/Yw0uuMndNiwJzRTeh2KcnNH9Q+bV+NcvYfnyhE+cw 4SRyGsVGc1tUp8CgxORS8OVYfYLBKITqT7g8gHt9jV2fQxfdPhnR1BPVx7X7MzFw1Zu8735 sZ3Vg7rN0WlryNYx2jc28NKzZZ3AzToNRtiEr8uPijm21Ik0Que2Odp6fDzcv/hZbOdZBwp 9Dp4/3zjPaRv/at/PIJow== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:Cp+GCOpVrTQ=:eE4Xw2/KJWmJXxvHsRLQYD nF1fh6bmETKxDw/3sOmL8ORHmO/vTzBiny15gAY/rFOUFXEg3WTq3zFt/HUIDJwN7MC+H1jWy 1K2yWja+ArGnceMjQsFS7WxfW8Q5bNrizbQJDB/Wa9rBSNBpoGBVjJMwa4LkOE15gBRCldgEx 1KvUfjKgCLeHQkEGPYwY0UK2ploJzVwI+HJNNY2CsUrqcZox/3dhapwtuNeeKANBnZAppgzFv f/15ab7WczWMbrJmJ3wy3I+2aN4q07Kr60AoKCjJzGdgUrXyUwM/tHpADV52fAyUrA4jmhFPG rLG/Q94KtFZ77B80KEJrESWdqg9YGLt7c//qPahyYr1kPUzca0EeE5EeLUYjAyk9L1Q1ro8r5 A5McHwLaA6N0SCYNoqQkLd45xCR9m9LyidAOkVYiR/9LbwpKsIzQKFcU4phLWBc1YbHPjSooX +wFIxnr8JCKeZsvRr5AtUNdz8dt1ZWLq2I1MZOnIfwWJEU30y0zssR0OxXEYmrI4JsCdX5Do8 8eZXduWk2e7aVZMMpSscLVdchy+aR7mnOsjGd9XkscMkqEvgIkiZvr7hUFg2Yv1oWLYqam/yx OIxexJNWL0xju4/CS1sQSViid+ap5QaHt6zTm5/Z+IOrUXqpDcF03gtjb8spoTge04AYZYCoD 6yIF3QKsPTcV57StRWYk0FYAYFf1LpbHivrHxBEUou+Vkby8nfR8/QQgqAkAkAjJ/mEWWzQGq YvHYn6D9zclOqWXoJgLXAbbAN1B6+T0486j1QDvg3RcnsfOxk8s5Fde0U1wEOaBKiY6ysoV4P tivQlMjzIKPCqsbI228qo5UlEw7t18JDiGWwraT3xukA6vhR/g= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:29:13 -0000 At first, please CC me in your response, I'm not subscribing to the list. I have problems printing on FreeBSD CURRENT (12.0-CURRENT #37 r327022: Wed Dec 20 15:07:55 CET 2017 amd64). print/cups, graphics/xpdf, mail/claws-mail and www/firefox are of most recent version as of usr/ports revvision r456793. The phenomenon is that I can not print via firefox' printing facility (printer symbol which should open a requester showing all the available printers), neither via xpdf or claws-mail. CUPS is up and running ans sockstat indicates, that cupsd is listening USER COMMAND PID FD PROTO LOCAL ADDRESS FOREIGN ADDRESS root cupsd 28838 5 tcp4 127.0.0.1:631 *:* root cupsd 28838 7 stream /var/run/cups.sock Connecting via firefox and https://localhost:631 works, also printing a testpage to any printer configured. The not-so-funny part is that either claws-mail, xpdf or firefox' printing facility seem to take a long time when selected from menu, showing then nothing but printing to file. In firefox, it takes ages to come up with this residual set of printing options, xpdf and claws-mail are a bit faster. =46rom the console, lpstat -a shows every configured printer and printing PS or PDF to a queue from a xterm or console works as expected. =46rom a Linux forum I gathered some pieces of information regarding the fact that possibly gtk3 problems may the reason but recompiling the usual suspicious ports didn't help, even recompiling firefox, xpdf or claws-mail or poppler/podofo didn't change the situation. I'm out of ideas. Maybe somebody faces the same problem and has some hints - I'd appreciate any tip. Thanks in advance, Oliver From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 17:22:45 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A18E976B7 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ah@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF6DC785E1 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:22:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ah@dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBKHMZPZ011198; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:22:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ah@dreamchaser.org) Subject: Re: printing problems: CUPS, claws-mail, firefox and xpdf-4 To: "Hartmann, O." , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20171220162908.445ef8c6@hermann> From: Gary Aitken Message-ID: <7d2f0edf-a3f0-48e5-4d5b-29e6e8b581cd@dreamchaser.org> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:22:03 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171220162908.445ef8c6@hermann> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:22:36 -0700 (MST) X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:22:45 -0000 On 12/20/17 08:29, Hartmann, O. wrote: > At first, please CC me in your response, I'm not subscribing to the > list. > > I have problems printing on FreeBSD CURRENT (12.0-CURRENT #37 r327022: > Wed Dec 20 15:07:55 CET 2017 amd64). > > print/cups, graphics/xpdf, mail/claws-mail and www/firefox are of most > recent version as of usr/ports revvision r456793. > > The phenomenon is that I can not print via firefox' printing facility > (printer symbol which should open a requester showing all the available > printers), neither via xpdf or claws-mail. > > CUPS is up and running ans sockstat indicates, that cupsd is listening > > USER COMMAND PID FD PROTO LOCAL ADDRESS FOREIGN ADDRESS > root cupsd 28838 5 tcp4 127.0.0.1:631 *:* > root cupsd 28838 7 stream /var/run/cups.sock > > Connecting via firefox and https://localhost:631 works, also printing a > testpage to any printer configured. > > The not-so-funny part is that either claws-mail, xpdf or firefox' > printing facility seem to take a long time when selected from menu, > showing then nothing but printing to file. In firefox, it takes ages to > come up with this residual set of printing options, xpdf and claws-mail > are a bit faster. > >>From the console, lpstat -a shows every configured printer and printing > PS or PDF to a queue from a xterm or console works as expected. > >>From a Linux forum I gathered some pieces of information regarding the > fact that possibly gtk3 problems may the reason but recompiling the > usual suspicious ports didn't help, even recompiling firefox, xpdf or > claws-mail or poppler/podofo didn't change the situation. > > I'm out of ideas. Maybe somebody faces the same problem and has some > hints - I'd appreciate any tip. ideas, although I'm currently fighting another issue: Have a look at /var/log/cups and check error_log and access_log. Also try using complete path to commands, as the cups commands have the same name as non-cups ones, e.g. /usr/local/bin/lpr not lpr which goes to /usr/bin/lpr, the non-cups cmd. Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 19:46:50 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5D1EA0002 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 19:46:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from g.lister@nodeunit.ch) Received: from nodeunit.com (mx01.nodeunit.com [192.186.89.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF9E7EAD2 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 19:46:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from g.lister@nodeunit.ch) Received: from xel (x140e.local.home [10.11.11.4]) by nodeunit.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2D822897; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 19:46:45 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 14:46:47 -0500 From: George To: Olivier Mauras Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pf NAT: Can't make anything else than ICMP work Message-ID: <20171220144647.0b547dd9@xel> In-Reply-To: <20171220160220.d8d718563209a8506a8e29aa@mauras.ch> References: <20171220092515.e0a757a560781ddead2d92d1@mauras.ch> <20171220094321.3400bf74@xel> <20171220160220.d8d718563209a8506a8e29aa@mauras.ch> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.9.3 (GTK+ 2.24.23; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 19:46:50 -0000 On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:02:20 +0100 Olivier Mauras wrote: > Hello George, > > Thanks for your reply. > > The nat rule gives the exact same behaviour. > Logging enabled gives me the same result as a standard tcpdump > actually. I see packets going out but replies never come back. > > Thanks, > -O. Yeah, it was a long shot ... I am not sure what to suggest from this point on except take things piece by piece. You are saying that packets are going out, on lagg0 I assume, but nothing is coming back. I would check the receiving end of those packets or your configuration for the interface and make sure that works without the NAT etc. before looking further into the NAT. I mean if traffic is going out and is being received then traffic should be coming back check that end and make sure it is taking the right route and the other end is seeing your data stream and responding before digging into NAT as it sounds that the problem maybe else where. It is always best to break things down to their simplest form and then start building up if it even works there. HTH, George > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:43:21 -0500 > George wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:25:15 +0100 > > Olivier Mauras wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I can't seem to make this very simple setup work. I have a VM that > > > have 2 interfaces on two different subnets and want to route > > > traffic between them. > > > - 10.60.0.0/24 > > > - 192.168.0.0/24 > > > > > > The 10.60.x.x interface gives access to local services and > > > internet. 192.168.x.x is a dedicated local subnet using this VM > > > as their default gateway > > > > > > If that matters, 10.60.x.x interface is a lagg interface between > > > two physical interfaces using KVM PCI passthrough while > > > 192.168.x.x is a virtio interface. > > > > > > gateway_enable is indeed set and I've added this very simple pf > > > rule: #### > > > ext_if="lagg0" > > > nat log on $ext_if proto { tcp udp icmp } from !($ext_if) to any > > > -> ($ext_if) pass all > > > #### > > > > I would suggest to enable logging to see what is going on on the > > pflog0, plus I think your nat rule is a bit strange try the > > standard: > > > > nat on $ext_if from $local_net to any -> $ext_addr > > > > HTH, > > George > > > > > > > > > > > > This let machines on the 192.168.0.0 subnet using this VM as a > > > gateway ping any ressources on 10.60.0.0 or internet. Fine. > > > Problem is that any other protocol doesn't work. Seems like > > > replies are never received correctly by the issuing machine. > > > > > > This is the state table I get when issuing DNS connection from a > > > client (192.168.100.2) behind the GW to either 10.60.60.150 or > > > 8.8.8.8 DNS servers. 10.60.60.3 is my GW address on 10.60.0.0 > > > subnet on lagg0 interface. #### # pfctl -ss > > > all udp 10.60.60.150:53 <- 192.168.100.2:53372 > > > NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:62261 (192.168.100.2:53372) > > > -> 10.60.60.150:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp > > > 10.60.60.150:53 <- 192.168.100.2:28768 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE > > > all udp 10.60.60.3:65271 (192.168.100.2:28768) -> > > > 10.60.60.150:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- > > > 192.168.100.2:43155 NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp > > > 10.60.60.3:50948 (192.168.100.2:43155) -> 8.8.8.8:53 > > > SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC all udp 8.8.8.8:53 <- 192.168.100.2:47160 > > > NO_TRAFFIC:SINGLE all udp 10.60.60.3:62818 (192.168.100.2:47160) > > > -> 8.8.8.8:53 SINGLE:NO_TRAFFIC > > > > > > I believe that I'm missing a very simple obvious thing but cannot > > > point it out. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > -O. > > > > > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Dec 20 23:27:36 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8458BE865E6 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 23:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohartmann@walstatt.org) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.gmx.net", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06E4F67B62 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2017 23:27:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ohartmann@walstatt.org) Received: from thor.intern.walstatt.dynvpn.de ([78.55.19.61]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M5tU1-1fC3aj1aLx-00xtoZ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 00:27:20 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 00:26:46 +0100 From: "O. Hartmann" To: Gary Aitken Cc: "Hartmann, O." , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: printing problems: CUPS, claws-mail, firefox and xpdf-4 Message-ID: <20171221002713.319a0237@thor.intern.walstatt.dynvpn.de> In-Reply-To: <7d2f0edf-a3f0-48e5-4d5b-29e6e8b581cd@dreamchaser.org> References: <20171220162908.445ef8c6@hermann> <7d2f0edf-a3f0-48e5-4d5b-29e6e8b581cd@dreamchaser.org> Organization: WALSTATT User-Agent: OutScare 3.1415926 X-Operating-System: ImNotAnOperatingSystem 3.141592527 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; boundary="Sig_/6RKs_wOzQgHhIR+cVbtJjtd"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:PJwb17ResHlzQ/sJQguLsDonOI8GQqlar2l1X1UoQKrxf6ML462 Lh2eCWTMetIY0vqBk2HgqFR8p+8WOFuMkdXP7xw6yhsUshOC6JwPX1xbZZ4Wt4iaEoUHzRj wGJLDhsppHThnkMEjMH3yceSVr69XcU928ewWwa+mvHJ+Rcij0udTau0VaFt5EGxLax/tY6 Gfqv36xB0irFTy+WK3SPg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:F7w0enQVD1Y=:2w9P9uXDejWaCll/hwXNBj skgPQ0qcRwkjrqJAdjJezA2GB4d47WZF6ILedQJ910S5mYd6x2DXiRfLDuaYT5C0Rg1oAQAXJ pJqIPgMx7Ryj80WIJGbF6Zky7BdLrzrg2UnTabBBdWd92DvEX5aixTrvYYo/Z5yi7lKTlA2re IuRlMzXZ2mURtjS+MprHUx2pBI/fG/QholtCAsj8UQhxTxy2B0JP/n00xHrNYuYD+ghIZcqMC WrlQtBG7uGvsD8rdi5cCXHAMbZ1CGQIJ2T9WB33C+12Lto4fQyn5j78ctzIorrXPsYMob9843 AXopSQYfDSXiZ+WVayuOzNr+dZIQahfKUexdLD/taGQx79DO58J/W3q+OpSNJonvX7ZY8+qj8 1tpgMw54AHMX1Dfn6xcv14IX0d+Zr7mMQ+aMmQQaphT1XI51rNjUtybI/CZlStyINEt9U4MA7 cdAR/R/w8GjuQV0qfgbk1vezQWkVm6DaLDq32sJot5n3VgT0Qo9SnNoHrl48ZlMfr3Zy4XCcr DuKXRoNxtfgg1XYI6UQqC/rkilY77Jz2Wdnq2H3pBBWd8NwKrMer36VK3KRyNzRXFrCf46G7E Kuf/3KgWgEhicA8eE5PEJXfH1O1jehbg7E0FKdnPkNQlymggIWWUTW6/0ry95kNf5jEeqTdJJ n8oVLWOncWQK3BjREDA6LLgCvQuzFygZIJ3mIZFc6/+Qk9pgR0ThUWF9/wZPvu2cU5jrquvxQ teIvSd72GHHnbvO4TvKTnu0wsA3ESk/pEsQicbIuJy9KqzUVvvSsw8vzeh8Y4wOYvrUCGu3Zc z+YCahui1T+AnLbtcCg0m3LKUbe/w== X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 23:27:36 -0000 --Sig_/6RKs_wOzQgHhIR+cVbtJjtd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am Wed, 20 Dec 2017 10:22:03 -0700 Gary Aitken schrieb: > On 12/20/17 08:29, Hartmann, O. wrote: > > At first, please CC me in your response, I'm not subscribing to the > > list. > >=20 > > I have problems printing on FreeBSD CURRENT (12.0-CURRENT #37 r327022: > > Wed Dec 20 15:07:55 CET 2017 amd64). > >=20 > > print/cups, graphics/xpdf, mail/claws-mail and www/firefox are of most > > recent version as of usr/ports revvision r456793. > >=20 > > The phenomenon is that I can not print via firefox' printing facility > > (printer symbol which should open a requester showing all the available > > printers), neither via xpdf or claws-mail. > >=20 > > CUPS is up and running ans sockstat indicates, that cupsd is listening > >=20 > > USER COMMAND PID FD PROTO LOCAL ADDRESS FOREIGN ADDRESS > > root cupsd 28838 5 tcp4 127.0.0.1:631 *:* > > root cupsd 28838 7 stream /var/run/cups.sock > >=20 > > Connecting via firefox and https://localhost:631 works, also printing a > > testpage to any printer configured. > >=20 > > The not-so-funny part is that either claws-mail, xpdf or firefox' > > printing facility seem to take a long time when selected from menu, > > showing then nothing but printing to file. In firefox, it takes ages to > > come up with this residual set of printing options, xpdf and claws-mail > > are a bit faster. > > =20 > >>From the console, lpstat -a shows every configured printer and printing= =20 > > PS or PDF to a queue from a xterm or console works as expected. > > =20 > >>From a Linux forum I gathered some pieces of information regarding the = =20 > > fact that possibly gtk3 problems may the reason but recompiling the > > usual suspicious ports didn't help, even recompiling firefox, xpdf or > > claws-mail or poppler/podofo didn't change the situation. > >=20 > > I'm out of ideas. Maybe somebody faces the same problem and has some > > hints - I'd appreciate any tip. =20 >=20 > ideas, although I'm currently fighting another issue: >=20 > Have a look at /var/log/cups and check error_log and access_log. > Also try using complete path to commands, as the cups commands have > the same name as non-cups ones, e.g. /usr/local/bin/lpr not lpr > which goes to /usr/bin/lpr, the non-cups cmd. >=20 > Gary I have already checked this (obvious) path problem, but it doesn't trigger = the problem. Even if I rename the base system's lpr command or prevent the LPR subsystem via /etc/src.conf to be installed, the problem persists. Prior to the update of Firefox to their "Quantum" version, R 57, I faced a = similar problem on on of our workstations: the printer window in Firefox came up qu= ickly, but presented only printing to a file - after a while, say 2 or 3 minutes, the = CUPS served printers (even those locally) came up. The problem magically vanished into = thin air after a update to Firefox 57.0. The fact that on the system in question the problems appear in X11, but man= ually printing via /usr/local/bin/lpr -P printer-name file.pdf/file.ps does work as expect= ed, makes me believe that something is out-of-synchronisation. The question is: what and= how to find it or better, how to resolve it. The fact, that claws-mail, xpdf-4 and firefox are affected (I didn't test o= ther software like GIMP, Inkscape or Scribus, I'll do this later when back in the office)= let me believe it must have to do something with a commonly used subsystem ... --=20 O. Hartmann Ich widerspreche der Nutzung oder =C3=9Cbermittlung meiner Daten f=C3=BCr Werbezwecke oder f=C3=BCr die Markt- oder Meinungsforschung (=C2=A7 28 Abs.= 4 BDSG). --Sig_/6RKs_wOzQgHhIR+cVbtJjtd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iLUEARMKAB0WIQQZVZMzAtwC2T/86TrS528fyFhYlAUCWjrx0QAKCRDS528fyFhY lIS8Af42DaGuyW1h/pCGhKXw4le6LKeucQxqjoRt/UBmOvf43rqeub3o00ahMWYU V0TUOTBZ9+lq9I1wsRRzdN2PoxjdAf9D9AkGHJp/hyto8ZJ+pJwWLpL+XixSx3HA 8Vl/HBPQ92w4U3TFilLUzdbc6l/mGpcNz0sI6daYgDgamnOzjQA1 =UUK0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/6RKs_wOzQgHhIR+cVbtJjtd-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Dec 21 06:06:22 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDF5EA4741 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 06:06:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cyberleo@cyberleo.net) Received: from mail.cyberleo.net (paka.cyberleo.net [216.226.128.180]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522087755C for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 06:06:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cyberleo@cyberleo.net) Received: from [172.16.44.4] (vitani.den.cyberleo.net [216.80.73.130]) by mail.cyberleo.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BE7C0359D9; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 00:57:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Bhyve + Ubuntu change RAM allocation To: Paul Macdonald , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: CyberLeo Kitsana Message-ID: <38d16e3e-c988-9885-4918-d61e5b30d823@cyberleo.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 23:57:15 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 06:06:22 -0000 On 12/15/2017 04:33 AM, Paul Macdonald wrote: > > Hi > > I have a ubuntu VM installed under Bhyve, but seem unable to change the > RAM alocation from the current 2GB to 4. > > I have managed to create a 2nd VM with this allocation, but would prefer > to just allocate ram to the first one > > grub-bhyve  -m device.map -r hd0,msdos1  -M 2048M ubuntu > bhyve  -w -AI -H -P -s 0:0,hostbridge  \ > -s 1:0,lpc -s 2:0,virtio-net,tap0 \ > -s 3:0,virtio-blk,./ubuntu.img \ > -l com1,stdio -c 2 \ > -m 2048M ubuntu > > i;ve updated to be > > grub-bhyve  -m device.map -r hd0,msdos1  -M 4096M ubuntu > bhyve  -w -AI -H -P -s 0:0,hostbridge  \ > -s 1:0,lpc -s 2:0,virtio-net,tap0 \ > -s 3:0,virtio-blk,./ubuntu.img \ > -l com1,stdio -c 2 \ > -m 4096M ubuntu > > but it complains about not being able to allocate memory. > > The box is a slightly greedy ZFS box, but even adding 10MB to the > alocation above givrs rise to a warning re unable to allocate memory, > failed to start VM. > > (and a 2nd VM was installed fine, and both run with the additional ram, > so zfs is releasing ok). > > am i missing something? Are you running this on a 64-bit host, or a 32-bit host? If 32-bit, you may not be able to allocate more than 2GB RAM to any single process, including bhyve. -- Fuzzy love, -CyberLeo Technical Administrator CyberLeo.Net Webhosting http://www.CyberLeo.Net Element9 Communications http://www.Element9.net Furry Peace! - http://www.fur.com/peace/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Dec 21 10:31:56 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82D7E8CE4F for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:31:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vikashb@where-ever.za.net) Received: from mailbox.is.co.za (mailbox.is.co.za [196.35.45.20]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC17D11C4 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:31:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vikashb@where-ever.za.net) X-AuthUser: vikashb@where-ever.za.net Received: from laptop.where-ever.za.net ([196.35.45.20]:62207) by mailbox.is.co.za with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:01:39 +0200 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Vikash Badal Subject: help with serial io touchpad Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:01:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:31:56 -0000 Greetings, Can someone point me in the right direction to get the serial io touchpad (DELL LATTITUDE 5580 ) working on 12-CURRENT Revision: 327055 centos 7 dmesg: [ 5.805241] i2c_hid 7-002c: error in i2c_hid_init_report size:137 / ret_size:2 [ 5.805389] input: DLL07A8:01 044E:120B as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:15.1/i2c_designware.1/i2c-7/7-002c/input/input14 [ 5.805670] hid-generic 0018:044E:120B.0001: input,hidraw0: HID v1.00 Mouse [DLL07A8:01 044E:120B] on I've loaded the ig4 module, but i cannot get any get touchpad working. there are no /dev/ii* entries ive tried adding to loader.conf : hw.psm.synaptics_support=1 root@newlaptop:/usr/src # pciconf -vl hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x59048086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v6/7th Gen Core Processor Host Bridge/DRAM Registers' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI vgapci0@pci0:0:2:0: class=0x030000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x59168086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'HD Graphics 620' class = display subclass = VGA none0@pci0:0:4:0: class=0x118000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x19038086 rev=0x02 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v5/E3-1500 v5/6th Gen Core Processor Thermal Subsystem' class = dasp xhci0@pci0:0:20:0: class=0x0c0330 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d2f8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP USB 3.0 xHCI Controller' class = serial bus subclass = USB none1@pci0:0:20:2: class=0x118000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d318086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP Thermal subsystem' class = dasp none2@pci0:0:21:0: class=0x118000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d608086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP Serial IO I2C Controller' class = dasp none3@pci0:0:21:1: class=0x118000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d618086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP Serial IO I2C Controller' class = dasp none4@pci0:0:22:0: class=0x078000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d3a8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP CSME HECI' class = simple comms none5@pci0:0:22:3: class=0x070002 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d3d8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' class = simple comms subclass = UART ahci0@pci0:0:23:0: class=0x010601 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d038086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP SATA Controller [AHCI mode]' class = mass storage subclass = SATA pcib1@pci0:0:28:0: class=0x060400 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d108086 rev=0xf1 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PCI Express Root Port' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI pcib2@pci0:0:28:2: class=0x060400 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d128086 rev=0xf1 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PCI Express Root Port' class = bridge subclass = PCI-PCI isab0@pci0:0:31:0: class=0x060100 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d4e8086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' class = bridge subclass = PCI-ISA none6@pci0:0:31:2: class=0x058000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d218086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP PMC' class = memory hdac0@pci0:0:31:3: class=0x040300 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d718086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP HD Audio' class = multimedia subclass = HDA none7@pci0:0:31:4: class=0x0c0500 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x9d238086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Sunrise Point-LP SMBus' class = serial bus subclass = SMBus em0@pci0:0:31:6: class=0x020000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x15d78086 rev=0x21 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Ethernet Connection (4) I219-LM' class = network subclass = ethernet none8@pci0:1:0:0: class=0xff0000 card=0x07a81028 chip=0x525a10ec rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd.' device = 'RTS525A PCI Express Card Reader' none9@pci0:2:0:0: class=0x028000 card=0x00508086 chip=0x24fd8086 rev=0x78 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Wireless 8265 / 8275' class = network From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Dec 21 14:37:53 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E20E9A9FE for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:37:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092065025.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.65.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "Microsoft IT SSL SHA2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81F6468CF8 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:37:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=lzbQ/v1hZ1/hGkXbPP5BDg4in68dWOEtLtPCKKzChgg=; 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0abf5016-bf7e-4656-913e-08d5488064b2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Dec 2017 14:37:43.0856 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR01HT089 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:37:53 -0000 SGksDQoNCldoZW5ldmVyIEkgdHJ5IHRvIGluc3RhbGwgYW55IHJwbSB1bmRlciBteSBMaW51eHVs YXRvciAobGludXhfYmFzZS1jNyksIA0KSSBnZXQgdGhlIGVycm9yOiBjYW5ub3QgZXh0cmFjdCB0 aHJvdWdoIDxzeW0+DQoNCjxzeW0+IGNhbiBiZSBiaW4gLyBzYmluIC8gbGliIC8gbGliNjQsIHdo aWNoIGFyZSBzeW1ib2xpYyBsaW5rcyB0byANCnVzci88c3ltPiAodW5kZXIgdGhlIHBhdGggL2Nv bXBhdC9saW51eC8pDQoNCkVhY2ggdGltZSBJIGFtIGZhY2VkIHdpdGggdGhpcyBwcm9ibGVtLCBJ IGhhdmUgdG8gZGVsZXRlIDxzeW0+IGFuZCBjb3B5IA0KdGhlIGFjdHVhbCBkaXJlY3RvcnkgaW4g 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verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46A1B6BBF1 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:06:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.home.qeng-ho.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBLFgMrT078670; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:42:22 GMT (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Subject: Re: How to fix : Cannot extract through symlink To: Manish Jain , "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" References: From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: <9879912b-5e7a-b0a0-4794-636e2ff3ca56@qeng-ho.org> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:42:22 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 16:06:46 -0000 On 21/12/2017 14:37, Manish Jain wrote: > Hi, > > Whenever I try to install any rpm under my Linuxulator (linux_base-c7), > I get the error: cannot extract through > > can be bin / sbin / lib / lib64, which are symbolic links to > usr/ (under the path /compat/linux/) > > Each time I am faced with this problem, I have to delete and copy > the actual directory in its place. But this is far less than ideal. > > 1) Is there some way I can avoid the above mess ? > 2) If not, there was a time under Unix when hard-linking a directory was > possible. Is there some hack by which I could hard-link directories > under FreeBSD ? Looking at the manual for link(2), hard linking directories is explicitly forbidden by the kernel. Many moons ago under SunOS I tried hard linking directories just to see what happened. Believe me, it's not a place you want to be, especially not if the link went up the file hierarchy. -- An amusing coincidence: log2(58) = 5.858 (to 0.0003% accuracy). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Dec 21 19:01:14 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB67E836BA for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:01:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tijl@freebsd.org) Received: from mailrelay119.isp.belgacom.be (mailrelay119.isp.belgacom.be [195.238.20.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "relay.skynet.be", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C5B173B96 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:01:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tijl@freebsd.org) X-Belgacom-Dynamic: yes IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3ADo6HkRVqEzItrgg5+Ek6p0dRXKPV8LGtZVwlr6E/?= =?us-ascii?q?grcLSJyIuqrYYxGGt8tkgFKBZ4jH8fUM07OQ7/i5HzRYqb+681k6OKRWUBEEjc?= =?us-ascii?q?hE1ycBO+WiTXPBEfjxciYhF95DXlI2t1uyMExSBdqsLwaK+i764jEdAAjwOhRo?= =?us-ascii?q?LerpBIHSk9631+ev8JHPfglEnjWwba9vIBmssQndqtQdjJd/JKo21hbHuGZDdf?= =?us-ascii?q?5MxWNvK1KTnhL86dm18ZV+7SleuO8v+tBZX6nicKs2UbJXDDI9M2Ao/8LrrgXM?= =?us-ascii?q?TRGO5nQHTGoblAdDDhXf4xH7WpfxtTb6tvZ41SKHM8D6Uaw4VDK/5KptVRTmij?= =?us-ascii?q?oINyQh/W/ZisJ+kr9VrhGjqBxxzIHbfI6bOeFifq7fYd8WWXZNUtpPWyFHH4iy?= =?us-ascii?q?b5EPD+0EPetAsYf9plkOrR+jDgSyA+PvzSRIiWHz3aIg1eQhChzN0Qs8H9IPsn?= =?us-ascii?q?TUqM74OqcIUe+r0qbF0CjNYf1M1Tf68ojIfQksrPeRVrxzacrc0UoiGx7fglmO?= =?us-ascii?q?poHpIymZ2+sPvmSB8eZsSfyjhmg6oA9ruDev3N0jiozRi4IQzVDL6Dt2zZ4uJd?= =?us-ascii?q?29VE57edmkEIZMty2CN4t5XMciQ2ZwtSY50LIGvZ+7fC0Ux5Q9wB7TceCHc4mK?= =?us-ascii?q?4hLnTuqePTB4hHV+eL2hgha9606gyvbmWsmzylZKoTJJktjKtn8Tyxze8suKRu?= =?us-ascii?q?Zn8ku/1juDyxrf5+5GLEwui6bXN4AtzqY1lpUJsETDGiH2mF/xjK+Tbkgk5umo?= =?us-ascii?q?6+bjYrj9qJ+cLZF7hR/lPaQ1h8OzG+M4MhIBX2SD4+SzyKXj/VHlQLVNlvA2nL?= =?us-ascii?q?PZv47EKssAva62HhZZ0p8+6xmhFDemzNUYnX4BLFJeYx+HgZLpNE/QL//jFvew?= =?us-ascii?q?nk6gkDBxx/DJbfXdBcDoJ37Ci7epX7987QYIwg0u19ZSoZNYB7cdIe7ick/2qN?= =?us-ascii?q?nRDxt/OAuxlbXJEtJ4g78fW2bHKaieK67XuFmTrrYzIuuITKEPtTvXENRj4OTh?= =?us-ascii?q?2yxq0WQBdLWkiMNEIEuzGe5rdh2U?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2DhAgAkBDxa/8ov8FFSCRkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEHAQEBAQGDPlaBBCePHo4bAQGCADMBgjSGHpA4hUUChElEFAEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQFqKII4IoJKAQU6HCMQCw4KCSUPKh4GE4oTAxmme4puAQEBAQEBBAEBAQEkg?= =?us-ascii?q?3+If4JrRYFEhiYFows9kDKEcIEAgSSGFYQQhz6NX4pbNiKBT0wwCIJlhFhAN4o?= =?us-ascii?q?PAQEB?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2DhAgAkBDxa/8ov8FFSCRkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEHAQEBAQG?= =?us-ascii?q?DPlaBBCePHo4bAQGCADMBgjSGHpA4hUUChElEFAEBAQEBAQEBAQFqKII4IoJKA?= =?us-ascii?q?QU6HCMQCw4KCSUPKh4GE4oTAxmme4puAQEBAQEBBAEBAQEkg3+If4JrRYFEhiY?= =?us-ascii?q?Fows9kDKEcIEAgSSGFYQQhz6NX4pbNiKBT0wwCIJlhFhAN4oPAQEB?= Received: from 202.47-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be (HELO kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org) ([81.240.47.202]) by relay.skynet.be with ESMTP; 21 Dec 2017 19:59:59 +0100 Received: from kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org (kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org [127.0.0.1]) by kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBLIxwPp044678; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:59:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from tijl@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:59:58 +0100 From: Tijl Coosemans To: Manish Jain Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: How to fix : Cannot extract through symlink Message-ID: <20171221195958.010ce64f@kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:01:14 -0000 On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:37:43 +0000 Manish Jain wrote: > Whenever I try to install any rpm under my Linuxulator (linux_base-c7), > I get the error: cannot extract through > > can be bin / sbin / lib / lib64, which are symbolic links to > usr/ (under the path /compat/linux/) > > Each time I am faced with this problem, I have to delete and copy > the actual directory in its place. But this is far less than ideal. > > 1) Is there some way I can avoid the above mess ? > 2) If not, there was a time under Unix when hard-linking a directory was > possible. Is there some hack by which I could hard-link directories > under FreeBSD ? Try extracting with tar -P, but please read the tar manual because -P does other things like preserving absolute paths. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Dec 21 20:33:26 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A816E88CD9 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 20:33:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tijl@coosemans.org) Received: from mailrelay119.isp.belgacom.be (mailrelay119.isp.belgacom.be [195.238.20.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "relay.skynet.be", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24404772FD for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 20:33:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tijl@coosemans.org) X-Belgacom-Dynamic: yes IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3Auznppx+tDS+4Af9uRHKM819IXTAuvvDOBiVQ1KB4?= =?us-ascii?q?1escTK2v8tzYMVDF4r011RmVBdyds6oMotGVmpioYXYH75eFvSJKW713fDhBt/?= =?us-ascii?q?8rmRc9CtWOE0zxIa2iRSU7GMNfSA0tpCnjYgBaF8nkelLdvGC54yIMFRXjLwp1?= =?us-ascii?q?Ifn+FpLPg8it2O2+54Dfbx9UiDahfLh/MAi4oQLNu8cMnIBsMLwxyhzHontJf+?= =?us-ascii?q?RZ22ZlLk+Nkhj/+8m94odt/zxftPw9+cFAV776f7kjQrxDEDsmKWE169b1uhTF?= =?us-ascii?q?UACC+2ETUmQSkhpPHgjF8BT3VYr/vyfmquZw3jSRMMvrRr42RDui9b9mRhHohi?= =?us-ascii?q?kZKjA382PYisJ/g61HrxysvAB/zozIbI2JKPZyYr3RcNUHTmRBRMZRUClBD5ui?= =?us-ascii?q?YYsODeoBOftTopf6p1sJthuxGwysC/npyj9Tm3T72rE60+UjEQHCxwEvA9UOsH?= =?us-ascii?q?PPrNrrMacdS+a1zLLSwTXEdfNW1i7w5Y7VeR4iufGBRbF9fdfLxUUxGA7Jkk+c?= =?us-ascii?q?pIPnMj+PyOgBr3aX4ux9Xuy1kWEnsRt+oj23y8cpjYnGm5wax0jf9SV83IY1Pd?= =?us-ascii?q?q4SFNnYdK8EJtfqSWaN4xuT8MhWW5ovCc6yrgYtp6heygG0ognxx/da/yDaYSH?= =?us-ascii?q?/hXjVOGKIThmgXJqYrS/hw2o/Uin0O38WdG40FdMriVbjtnBrnMA2wHJ5sSZRf?= =?us-ascii?q?Zx4l2t1DmN2gzJ9O1IPV44mbLeK5E7w74wkpQTsV7EHi/zgEj2kK6Wdkcg+uWz?= =?us-ascii?q?9+vnZbLmpoSCOI9xkA7+NL8ulta4AeQiPQgCR3Kb9vik1L3/4U35R61HjvMskq?= =?us-ascii?q?bHrp/VPt8bqbOgDw9Mz4Ys9Q2/Dyun0NQfm3kHN0lIeBydj4f3JV7BO+v4Auql?= =?us-ascii?q?j1SrijdryKOOArq0J5zLL2PD2JXofLA1v0Rb1RA1wJZe659SFrAdMdrzXVP0vd?= =?us-ascii?q?3cSBQ+Nlrn7fzgDYBB14EaEUmIBbSUNarUqhfc+uMtJ8GHY4gOtTP0LeNj4OTh?= =?us-ascii?q?2yxq0WQBdLWkiMNEIEuzGe5rdh2U?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2DWAgBrGTxa/8ov8FFSCRkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEHAQEBAQGDPoFaJ48ejhsBAYIAMwGCNIYekDiFRQKESUQUAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAWoogjgigkoBBTocIxALDgoJJQ8qHgYTihMDGacHim8BAQEBAQEEAQEBASSDf?= =?us-ascii?q?4h/gmtFgUSGJgWjCz2QMoRwgQCBJIYVhBCHPo1fils2IoFPTDAIgmWEWEA3h0U?= =?us-ascii?q?rgh8BAQE?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2DWAgBrGTxa/8ov8FFSCRkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEHAQEBAQG?= =?us-ascii?q?DPoFaJ48ejhsBAYIAMwGCNIYekDiFRQKESUQUAQEBAQEBAQEBAWoogjgigkoBB?= =?us-ascii?q?TocIxALDgoJJQ8qHgYTihMDGacHim8BAQEBAQEEAQEBASSDf4h/gmtFgUSGJgW?= =?us-ascii?q?jCz2QMoRwgQCBJIYVhBCHPo1fils2IoFPTDAIgmWEWEA3h0Urgh8BAQE?= Received: from 202.47-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be (HELO kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org) ([81.240.47.202]) by relay.skynet.be with ESMTP; 21 Dec 2017 21:33:22 +0100 Received: from kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org (kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org [127.0.0.1]) by kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id vBLKXMmd045499; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 21:33:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from tijl@coosemans.org) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 21:33:22 +0100 From: Tijl Coosemans To: Manish Jain Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: How to fix : Cannot extract through symlink Message-ID: <20171221213322.0f17ad3d@kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org> In-Reply-To: <20171221195958.010ce64f@kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org> References: <20171221195958.010ce64f@kalimero.tijl.coosemans.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 20:33:26 -0000 On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:59:58 +0100 Tijl Coosemans wrote: > On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 14:37:43 +0000 Manish Jain wrote: >> Whenever I try to install any rpm under my Linuxulator (linux_base-c7), >> I get the error: cannot extract through >> >> can be bin / sbin / lib / lib64, which are symbolic links to >> usr/ (under the path /compat/linux/) >> >> Each time I am faced with this problem, I have to delete and copy >> the actual directory in its place. But this is far less than ideal. >> >> 1) Is there some way I can avoid the above mess ? >> 2) If not, there was a time under Unix when hard-linking a directory was >> possible. Is there some hack by which I could hard-link directories >> under FreeBSD ? > > Try extracting with tar -P, but please read the tar manual because -P > does other things like preserving absolute paths. Instead of using -P perhaps it's better to extract into a temporary directory and move bin, sbin, lib, and lib64 to usr there. Then copy everything to /compat/linux. That's essentially what we do in the ports tree. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Dec 22 14:15:09 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06715E9AF6D for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:15:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7832B78853 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:15:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.18.98]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue103 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0MNN9N-1eLVCv2ogr-006tJq; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:01:48 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:01:47 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Baho Utot Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here Message-Id: <20171222150147.7728da45.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <8fe2f6a9-57bb-9a04-8470-e4ff5329692d@columbus.rr.com> References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171213175453.1723adc5.freebsd@edvax.de> <8fe2f6a9-57bb-9a04-8470-e4ff5329692d@columbus.rr.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:RE4wgPVhFjiXCY815HKfUIXaeLWLelZD87zaCmKVCBBVvPBPvf6 n6GZS1PqR+AKPBtOuamHvogwdWGKrLdpYxonJXgwrTwdE4sbMFFJ5dUOyv1aldV77tRflyi VnBMSEyj6abjuDEeMBfRaGejRVnmcstOXVM9WXc34nFjbpzUJfa9K7ONpJ9w5BHPBIgf9Sg AEyfbclekIwEzfuTAh7IQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:05Z8OX8eIkg=:x+6M67xSZVRC/RCd62w9zi j1m2nVHkpPiX/Tl4geYVjrTumffgv/FM7COAvI3oQsgGbA5MIcM0q9R4Hvj4D7FRNueOBzfN/ QFEWwK9qbrHfILMaxvS07bq1guojdNwb4P8WHp/qVMdIIophCLC68RbfyHzFEDEQjVHp3xZSR JGgDo+2Fo52G12LGF4bwze5hi/PVFhTj8K4FWeKxfZuXIoihu4nCZBBWG0b2VzxO0U5H4Q66T EOUdcfxVEAluxeZJoZXAWFMCRXLxRGePQH/IGJk9I0n86hYKc+Pz0BB5wEOIfsJcsyiwDuE84 xeRTw7t9ShaM+PyglETTBXMXkH83THA2UF0I3eYDgzFYcfbbcsO/tBHQciij5RG364xoldgK1 qTS6WSV4sTF6nV4EPtE3wEau+hoiFQJOKVN3YsguTzeEzb78q695t2pauqT/tgxCYaIrd1lla L5EgV/3jcs1NstuCkkj3hGXAn6jrCwOFaDKmP6NiGxvvzxVa4B5EHl2j/Kr4c43PVMQc6tvZX ZExKDbSF5Um8mZUCnajWJ4QfFQJJy86SXjFGASiBMtovVSvqWls2sE1godcltNKUHDqw8rHTh y5T5lzEQ3JsYAhXi9s1lls2IWi34fGtw6oLvH+yKMfAb13cIAxvbgJAu53xJazkH1dTzWni5L OWIJJG4SW9a25RimFzm8mKeIuANjSY7UqeKXGsxJ4omWL7Su7KuKBQr0jMLNF/ojJTza2E8wF 40HT3VFGTIesMlAaYnSV7IAacLHNNdzEsH+pY41lQX32VSYgDWE6LbkSCoEekmKYA2isuuhxh HgYlGKF X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:15:09 -0000 On Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:52:23 -0500, Baho Utot wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 12/13/17 11:54, Polytropon wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 20:01:41 -0500, Baho Utot wrote: > >> On 12/9/2017 2:23 PM, Polytropon wrote: > >>> [...] > >>>> Any way I have started to update my scratch built linux systems, bec= ause > >>>> this 5 year trial of FreeBSD has just been fraught with an unbelieva= ble > >>>> work load just to make it function. > >>> THis is in fact a big deal - but usually this list is very > >>> helpful if you're willing to "do your homework". > >>> > >> Helpful as in what I asked how do you boot yo a zfs raid array?=A0 The > >> answer but using the BIOS menu to boot it.=A0 Thjat is just not accept= able. > >=20 > > Things as complex as ZFS RAID have more than one solution, > > usually depending on the specific hardware and software > > combination you are using. > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > The Raidz i install was from the manual, so how come there is nothing in= =20 > the manual showing one how to boot it? >=20 > It is not complex by any means This is really a problem. A procedure that has been verified (!) to enter the handbook, i. e., how to install something, should also include how to use it, unless it's not trivial. > >> Asked how well does grub2 work and how does one install it. answer > >> crikets.=A0 searchging the web produces info from 2009 and earlier, th= at > >> dog don't hunt. > >=20 > > In the context of dual-booting FreeBSD / Linux, Grub2 has > > come up a few times at least on _this_ list, if I remember > > correctly. Check if the mailing list archive can help. How > > to install Grub2 is a question that the documentation of > > Grub2 should provide. ;-) > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > well the docs do show one how to make it work, freebsd could integrate=20 > it into to things....would not hurt any one much to do that. Then=20 > freebsd would have a newer boot loader instead of the achient one they=20 > have now. I don't really see a problem with the classic MBR and GPT bootloaders. They do what they are intended for. Specific combinations, like UEFI + GPT + multiboot _can_ be a problem, but I'd rather deal with a simple and understandable concept that FreeBSD uses than be forced (!) to use something complicated. > >>>> Some of the issues: > >>>> > >>>> Lack of direction. > >>>> > >>>> No transactions in pkg. One "bad" package and your system doesn't b= oot, > >>>> so dig out the USB drive > >>> That exactly is the situation on Linux, where even the kernel > >>> is just a package. FreeBSD has a strong barrier between the > >>> operating system and 3rd party applications (that come from > >>> the ports collection). Even with damaged ports (or with _no_ > >>> ports), the system will still boot. Sure, certain additional > >>> services might not be started, but that's not a problem for > >>> the OS. In worst case, /usr/local is removed altogether, its > >>> structure rebuilt from the /etc/mtree/ file, pkg gets boot- > >>> strapped - and you're ready to install new ports cleanly. > >>> The OS does not care. > >> Not really I have built scratch built linux versions for 10 years and > >> have less than 10% of the problems I have had with FreeBSD. > >=20 > > Never _personally_ suffered from it, but I had to help several > > fellow sysadmins dealing with "the upgrade ate my system" kind > > of trouble. So this definitely happens. And we're talking about > > a massive _system_ problem, not just some random application > > coredumping or just printing error messages after an upgrade. > >=20 > > However, the wise choice of the Linux distribution has big > > effects on what kind of errors you get, and how many, and how > > often. Recovery plans, backups, failover systems and so on > > can also be very useful, just in case. So if your boss tells > > you to install a crappy desktop Linux on a server, doesn't > > allow backups ("Disks are expensive!"), and urges you to > > do updates at 10 a.m. so he can "observe" you... well... > > you know what you'll get. :-) > >=20 >=20 > I don't do linux distributions, I roll my own I understood that from your explanation. > Who is "he" anyway? In the example above "he" =3D "the boss". > >>> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will > >>> handle this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for > >>> installing and upgrading OS files in the future, so there > >>> will not be the big difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg > >>> update" / "pkg upgrade". > >> > >> I suspect it will kill systems with a ge=3Dreat deal of regulaity > >=20 > > At the current development stage, this could be possible. > > But I think when the packaged base will be the default, > > it should work _at least_ as good as the current method > > (freebsd-update). From the wiki page, you can see that there > > is still work to do, so it's clearly optional at this point. >=20 >=20 > The manner at which packaged base has taken is just horrific > I'll be dead before it is of any value. We will see. Or maybe not... ;-) > Most on here don't even know why one should build packages in a "clean=20 > room" let alone know why you should only build packages with a user=20 > account. The jail approach that Poudriere uses implements such a "clean room" concept. > What I am doing is simple, you folks like to wrap it up into some=20 > complete ball from outer space. >=20 > Install an OS to use as a toolchain >=20 > fetch source and build system >=20 > Install the built system >=20 > Add packages to create Desktop/servers boxes. >=20 > See Really simple. >=20 > I have been doing that with Linux since 1998. This description raises one question - please correct me if I'm wrong: You're saying that you first build something from source (the build system), then you add binary packages... wouldn't it be easier to (a) use a source-based system only, or (b) use precompiled packages only? Combining both forms is surely possible, and may even be a good solution under specific circumstances, for example if a custom-compiled kernel or userland is needed, or a port requires options which are not the default options. This is where precompiled packages just cannot deliver that kind of flexibility. However, FreeBSD has done good work in providing a system that allows binary upgrades both for the OS (freebsd-update) and ports (pkg), which is a real improvement compared to what was present 10 years ago (with the "classic" infrastructures, before the revision of the build system and the introduction of pkg). > >>> Common consensus is to use RELEASE and the security patches. > >>> This can be done with freebsd-update easily. For those who > >>> wish to experiment with bleeding-edge software, STABLE is > >>> the right choice, but it requires building from source. > >>> And those who are applying experimental (!) changes, for > >>> example kernel and OS developers, or testers, use HEAD, > >>> fully aware of what I mentioned before. > >> > >> I've heard that bedtime story all too many times. > >=20 > > It seems to be reality for the majority of FreeBSD users, and > > it is consistent with the descriptions of the development > > cycle of FreeBSD. > >=20 >=20 > What is the average uptime? I have a raspberry pi running Arch linux=20 > with an up time of over 3 years. It will be retired when I finish my=20 > scratch built linux system for a Raspberry Pi 3. >=20 > The Arch system on the pi was built by me, I don't use binaryies from=20 > any source. Binary blobs for hardware excepted. >=20 > If I can not compile it I don't use it. I feel the same about software installations myself, but the ability to use precompiled packages that just work (TM) is very convenient. PCs today are more than powerful enough to build things fron source, except you consider software as complex as a whole operating system, such as the common web browsers and office suites. Again, precompiled packages make installation and upgrading (!) eaiser / faster. > >>>> ports in-stability... I was using Head then I was told to use quarte= rly > >>>> and then told that it does not receive security updates, well not all > >>>> and not on a regular basis. Then I was told to use head WTF? > >>> You are mixing ports and OS. The ports tree (and the > >>> corresponding repository) can be reset at RELEASE, you > >>> can choose a quarterly updated branch (often used in > >>> combination with a RELEASE-pX system), or you can keep > >>> your ports tree as current as possible. You can use tools > >>> like portsnap (snapshots) or svn (tracking), or just use > >>> the ports tree that came with your RELEASE install - it > >>> depends on what kind of software (versions) you intend to > >>> run. Always (!) choose your tools depending on the task. > >>> There is no "one size fits all egg-laying wool-milk-sow". ;-) > >>> > >> I mixed no ports,=A0 you see I created meta-ports to install a standard > >> set of packages and when changing port repos removed all the packages > >> and rm -rf /usr/local, then built and installed the meta-port package. > >=20 > > Maybe you misunderstood: > >=20 > > "Mixing ports and OS" refers to confusing OS updates with ports > > updates (and OS installation with ports installation for that > > matter) - compare it to Linux where you don't have something like > > "the OS" per se, instead it's a selection of individual packages > > made by the distribution maintainers about what they consider the > > core functionality of their distribution. >=20 > If one builds a base OS and adds "ports" there is no mixing. I have=20 > heard too many people say that. I see no evidence. OS and ports live in independent worlds. The problem arises from _confusing_ OS and ports, forgetting about the "barrier" that keeps your OS fully functional even when you make a total mess with the ports. Other problems occur when you combine software installed with "pkg install" and "make install", i. e., binary packages and stuff built from source with nonstandard (!) options. In such cases, "pkg lock" or using Poudriere is the way to go. > If I am running version 9 why should compiling the "latest ports" not=20 > work. This depends on the toolchain that you have on that system. During FreeBSD 9, the "big revivion" of the port system happened, if I remember correctly. Newer ports trees won't build on the old system, and older ports trees aren't even supported anymore. It's like trying to use "pkg_add" today. :-) > You seem to think I build ports on version 11.0 and intend to run=20 > them on 10.3. Just not the case. That was not my assumption. > > Meta-ports are just an abstraction of ports ("ports that contain, > > or better, require other ports"), nothing wrong here. They have > > nothing to do with the OS and its version (RELEASE, STABLE, HEAD), > > except you have a specific requirement that for example RELEASE > > doesn't fulfill (yet), but STABLE already does. > >=20 >=20 > meta-packages are everything...if you know what you are doing. > I use just 4 meta-ports with synth to install a freebsd desktop. I see mata-packages at the upcoming "packaged base" to be able to create a tailored system, for example one where you can "remove" lpr (read: not install lpr at all) because you are going to use CUPS anyway. This is the equivalent of using src.conf to avoid building and installing lpr. Such "OS meta-packages" could be used to allow fine-grained control of what to install (at install time, not later on). > > Of course just compiling stuff is possible from a regular user > > account (given that working directories and maybe a staging area > > can be written to). It would _maybe_ (!) be possible to temporarily > > install build dependencies (as mentioned above) into such a location > > as long as root level access isn't needed for execution. > >=20 >=20 > That is why you have a "build system". I build a gcc toolchain just to=20 > build the "new system". You can not boot strap an OS with out building=20 > a tool chain to separate you from the host OS. With tools like Poudriere, those toolchains are kept within the jail that serves as a build system. They do not affect the (host) OS. > >>>> no packaged base, the packaged base just isn't usable, and no one wa= nts > >>>> to listen to alternatives. > >>> This is something still in development (and with potential of > >>> improvement). If implemented in a reliable and secure manner, > >>> it will probably be a positive thing. But only time will tell. > >>> > >> > >> Well it WAS promised for release 11.0. > >=20 > > Yes, I read that. But would you like to have something becoming > > mandatory which doesn't really work as expected? Just think about > > the sc -> vt trouble! :-) > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > No I would like when a project is going to be undertaken that the folks=20 > bringing the project would have had an project scope and then used some=20 > GANTT charing to see if what they are proposing is doable in the time=20 > slot allotted. Hell it looks like the devls here just start hacking on=20 > things without any direction. A decision was to retire sc... ;-) > >> The whole > >> process that is currently being used to package base in not sound. > >> Again no one wanted to listen to different ways to go about packaging > >> base.=A0 I was going to do that but the amount of work for me to do th= at > >> on my own was greater than if I just go back to my scratch built > >> systems..=A0 Which would YOU do? > >=20 > > As long as you don't _need_ a packaged base, stay with what > > works for you. And if FreeBSD _in general_ doesn't work for > > you, use Linux instead. There is nothing wrong doing so. > >=20 >=20 > As long as you grant me that and I am allowed........ I am not the responsible authority for this specific kind of permission. I cannot tell you which institution to attend to because I'm using Linux myself without someone else's proper permission... :-) > >>>> After trying packaged base no one could tell > >>>> me how to go back to the "old" method of updating base. > >>> You also cannot go back from pkg-based ports to the old way, > >>> because it's not supported anymore, the build environments > >>> do not exist anymore, and the old ways don't work anymore. > >>> > >>> But in your specific problem, downloading the source (with > >>> a RELEASE version preferred), from the distribution tarball > >>> or via svn, then building from source (as explained in the > >>> comment header of /usr/src/Makefile), should work. > >>> > >> I did source upgrades. > >=20 > > Did so myself for a long time, with custom kernel, configuration > > tweaked to meet the exact hardware. But nowadays - maybe I'm just > > getting older! - I prefer to use binary updates for OS and ports. > > FOr me, this works as intended, and there is hardly a need to > > build stuff from source. > >=20 >=20 > I see build from source as security issue....A good habit as I know what= =20 > was installed. Yes some one could place a back door in the source but=20 > it would not be likely On few occassions, it happens. But in how far is building from (manually unverified) sources on your own system fundamentally different from using what the FreeBSD build clusters created? Generally, I understand (and share) the attitude of building from source as an aspect of security. > >>>> I > >>>> found a way and it was trival. I have not updated base since 11.0 p= 10 > >>>> as I am not up for fixing any breakage if it would occur. > >>> If I remember correctly, 11.0 doesn't use pkg-base as a default. > >>> > >> Well it was implied that that was to be the future starting with 11.0 > >=20 > > Maybe in 12.0 then. :-) > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > I'll never see 12.0, Hell from 11.0 to 11.1 didn't go well for some folk= s. And people complain that FreeBSD 5 was bad! :-) > >>>> Lack of ability to use modern graphics cards on the "desktop", it s= eems > >>>> to have taken a back seat to pkg development. > >>> Nonsense. Even though you have to think before you buy, there are > >>> lots of modern graphics cards that work well on FreeBSD. And if > >>> you don't have a problem using nVidia's binary drivers, they > >>> usually work quite nicely and enable you a plethora of 3D stuff. > >>> And pkg has nothing to do with it, as those binary drivers are > >>> distributed binarily, so nothing can be ported. :-) > >>> > >> > >> Not nonsense look here https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics. > >> > >> It only works with Radeon HD 7660 or earlier.=A0 Radeon HD 7700 and la= ter > >> nope. > >> Nvidia only to GTX 960. > >=20 > > Now you can imagine the horror I feel when I need to buy > > new hardware. That's why I'm using old hardware, simply > > because it just works(TM)(R)(C). :-) > >=20 > > Note the opening paragraph: "The tables below are not an > > exhaustive list of supported hardware." > >=20 > > But... maybe I have a misunderstanding of what the wiki > > page you mentioned is about. At a point, it reads: > > "Radeon video cards: AGP cards not supported before > > FreeBSD 10-CURRENT". I've been using an ATi Radeon 9200 > > (or was it a 9600?) for many years with FreeBSD 5 and 7, > > with full 3D support! What was my problem? ;-) > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > Well on linux I can walk into the local computer store and buy the=20 > current AMD graphics card and run it... freebsd never, unless I run it=20 > in vesa mode.... Oh yea I will run out and buy a $500.00 graphics card=20 > just to run vesa.. I can see that now. Don't be stupid. First think, then buy. And "to think" here includes verification of hardware compatibility. You never do something wrong this way. And if VESA modes are okay for simple desktop use, why spend $500 for a GPU? The cheapest one will do. > >>>> If one is going to be doing major changes how about doing them one a= t a > >>>> time and actually finishing them. > >>> I wish they had been doing this with sc -> vt, but no... you want > >>> X _and_ text mode? NO SOUP FOR YOU! ;-) > >>> > >> > >> Exactly my point.=A0 When you work for a mega corp (billions of dollar= s) > >> you learn how to roll things out where they work 95% of the time.=A0 Y= es > >> you have things happen,=A0 FreeBSD seems to make a mess every time > >> something is rolled out.=A0 See the difference? > >=20 > > As I said, I follow FreeBSD since 4.0, and to be honest, the > > problem sc -> vt is the _first_ thing (at OS responsibility) > > that I find really annoying. Except for this specific case, > > FreeBSD never failed for me in this area. > >=20 >=20 > You time will come. I hope not! > >> tickle a few config files and your done.=A0 One could even install > >> multiple "function meta packages on a single machine. > >=20 > > Why "even"? One of FreeBSD's strength is that you can > > easily have a server on your desktop. :-) > >=20 >=20 > You go right ahead and do that, I am not even going there. I had to do this on few occassions, ranging from office print servers to internal web servers and shared directories, but nothing more complex of course. Separation of functionality is usually preferred, but sometimes, the rule is "Do what I tell you to do, I know better!" which pays the bills. But I usually make sure I have written and signed documentation, stating the risks and predicted problems, so it's not _my_ fault when something breaks. :-) > >> This is how I install FreeBSD but with the base package missing. > >> But I am told I am a rank amature and know nothing of value. > >=20 > > You're definitely not a "know nothing" from what you explain. > >=20 >=20 > So that is why no one wants to listen? I know about what I am doing so=20 > I can not be listened to, so the devs path will not diviate? I have no idea, I cannot read people's minds... > >> FreeBSD is harder to do this way because of non-packed base and boot > >> loader issues.=A0 Also with a broken getent makes it harder to > >> programmically install user into the system. > >=20 > > Yes, ripping apart what initially has been one functional unit > > will cause problems. And imagine the fun when the system cannot > > start because the scripts require a new shell that hasn't been > > packaged yet for the base. :-) > >=20 >=20 > Don't have a clue about what you are saying Have you ever encountered a system where some "certified consultant" has removed the system's scripting shell? And you are not allowed to touch anything, but make it work again? :-) --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Dec 22 15:09:44 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2CBE9F021 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:09:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from cdptpa-cmomta01.email.rr.com (cdptpa-outbound-snat.email.rr.com [107.14.166.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25D717A54F for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:09:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from baho-utot@columbus.rr.com) Received: from raspberrypi.bildanet.com ([65.186.67.174]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id SOsLeGZezDEIBSOsOeypp7; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:04:44 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.143] (helo=desktop.example.com) by raspberrypi.bildanet.com with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1eSOsL-0003Ii-54; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:04:41 +0000 Subject: Re: looks like I am no longer welcome around here To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20171209135853.a6c104f5.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171209142711.d5bd91b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <4b109558-8422-a62a-9c45-748e03efbfba@columbus.rr.com> <20171209202321.b9919fc3.freebsd@edvax.de> <20171213175453.1723adc5.freebsd@edvax.de> <8fe2f6a9-57bb-9a04-8470-e4ff5329692d@columbus.rr.com> <20171222150147.7728da45.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Baho Utot Message-ID: <5bcab351-659e-bce7-7d4a-1b896ff59507@columbus.rr.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:04:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171222150147.7728da45.freebsd@edvax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfO5xBZ8S4RiyrqgTDh8WQfs9qjzypOenxJuxxob6sZBbqpkVutcS4C9IuVZ0+nBvJTpZfvH7rT68j1rRvGqRTd9U1aWx0zogmyboHRatXg0ZMFjqRv0I TqF78heGxIAOTMFv3B8OHYqN8tT9k/+u6mJjxIqFEoqByRh2FzJ+/epxN0jCiwcIuq0m7cfjYvte1iJpS5dCykY0OtCKaGGkRT4= X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:09:44 -0000 On 12/22/17 09:01, Polytropon wrote: > On Thu, 14 Dec 2017 19:52:23 -0500, Baho Utot wrote: >> >> >> On 12/13/17 11:54, Polytropon wrote: >>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 20:01:41 -0500, Baho Utot wrote: >>>> On 12/9/2017 2:23 PM, Polytropon wrote: >>>>> [...] >>>>>> Any way I have started to update my scratch built linux systems, because >>>>>> this 5 year trial of FreeBSD has just been fraught with an unbelievable >>>>>> work load just to make it function. >>>>> THis is in fact a big deal - but usually this list is very >>>>> helpful if you're willing to "do your homework". >>>>> >>>> Helpful as in what I asked how do you boot yo a zfs raid array?  The >>>> answer but using the BIOS menu to boot it.  Thjat is just not acceptable. >>> >>> Things as complex as ZFS RAID have more than one solution, >>> usually depending on the specific hardware and software >>> combination you are using. >>> >>> >> >> The Raidz i install was from the manual, so how come there is nothing in >> the manual showing one how to boot it? >> >> It is not complex by any means > > This is really a problem. A procedure that has been verified (!) > to enter the handbook, i. e., how to install something, should > also include how to use it, unless it's not trivial. Problem? not to the ones that control FreeBSD. > > > >>>> Asked how well does grub2 work and how does one install it. answer >>>> crikets.  searchging the web produces info from 2009 and earlier, that >>>> dog don't hunt. >>> >>> In the context of dual-booting FreeBSD / Linux, Grub2 has >>> come up a few times at least on _this_ list, if I remember >>> correctly. Check if the mailing list archive can help. How >>> to install Grub2 is a question that the documentation of >>> Grub2 should provide. ;-) >>> >>> >> >> well the docs do show one how to make it work, freebsd could integrate >> it into to things....would not hurt any one much to do that. Then >> freebsd would have a newer boot loader instead of the achient one they >> have now. > > I don't really see a problem with the classic MBR and GPT > bootloaders. They do what they are intended for. Specific > combinations, like UEFI + GPT + multiboot _can_ be a > problem, but I'd rather deal with a simple and understandable > concept that FreeBSD uses than be forced (!) to use something > complicated. > > By standardizing on grub2 you can rid one self of many problems that freebsd has that grub has solved many years ago and boot other os as well. You do not have to maintain the code. > >>>>>> Some of the issues: >>>>>> >>>>>> Lack of direction. >>>>>> >>>>>> No transactions in pkg. One "bad" package and your system doesn't boot, >>>>>> so dig out the USB drive >>>>> That exactly is the situation on Linux, where even the kernel >>>>> is just a package. FreeBSD has a strong barrier between the >>>>> operating system and 3rd party applications (that come from >>>>> the ports collection). Even with damaged ports (or with _no_ >>>>> ports), the system will still boot. Sure, certain additional >>>>> services might not be started, but that's not a problem for >>>>> the OS. In worst case, /usr/local is removed altogether, its >>>>> structure rebuilt from the /etc/mtree/ file, pkg gets boot- >>>>> strapped - and you're ready to install new ports cleanly. >>>>> The OS does not care. >>>> Not really I have built scratch built linux versions for 10 years and >>>> have less than 10% of the problems I have had with FreeBSD. >>> >>> Never _personally_ suffered from it, but I had to help several >>> fellow sysadmins dealing with "the upgrade ate my system" kind >>> of trouble. So this definitely happens. And we're talking about >>> a massive _system_ problem, not just some random application >>> coredumping or just printing error messages after an upgrade. >>> >>> However, the wise choice of the Linux distribution has big >>> effects on what kind of errors you get, and how many, and how >>> often. Recovery plans, backups, failover systems and so on >>> can also be very useful, just in case. So if your boss tells >>> you to install a crappy desktop Linux on a server, doesn't >>> allow backups ("Disks are expensive!"), and urges you to >>> do updates at 10 a.m. so he can "observe" you... well... >>> you know what you'll get. :-) >>> >> >> I don't do linux distributions, I roll my own > > I understood that from your explanation. > > >> Who is "he" anyway? > > In the example above "he" = "the boss". > I don't have a boss > >>>>> However, I am not sure how the new packaging approach will >>>>> handle this. As you might have read, pkg will be used for >>>>> installing and upgrading OS files in the future, so there >>>>> will not be the big difference "freebsd-update" and "pkg >>>>> update" / "pkg upgrade". >>>> >>>> I suspect it will kill systems with a ge=reat deal of regulaity >>> >>> At the current development stage, this could be possible. >>> But I think when the packaged base will be the default, >>> it should work _at least_ as good as the current method >>> (freebsd-update). From the wiki page, you can see that there >>> is still work to do, so it's clearly optional at this point. >> >> >> The manner at which packaged base has taken is just horrific >> I'll be dead before it is of any value. > > We will see. Or maybe not... ;-) > I can assure you what I wrote is exactly true. > >> Most on here don't even know why one should build packages in a "clean >> room" let alone know why you should only build packages with a user >> account. > > The jail approach that Poudriere uses implements such a > "clean room" concept. > It is also very heavy. I do clean rooms builds with unionfs, chroot and a bourne shell script. > > >> What I am doing is simple, you folks like to wrap it up into some >> complete ball from outer space. >> >> Install an OS to use as a toolchain >> >> fetch source and build system >> >> Install the built system >> >> Add packages to create Desktop/servers boxes. >> >> See Really simple. >> >> I have been doing that with Linux since 1998. > > This description raises one question - please correct me if > I'm wrong: > > You're saying that you first build something from source > (the build system), then you add binary packages... wouldn't > it be easier to > > (a) use a source-based system only, or > > (b) use precompiled packages only? > > Combining both forms is surely possible, and may even be > a good solution under specific circumstances, for example > if a custom-compiled kernel or userland is needed, or a > port requires options which are not the default options. > This is where precompiled packages just cannot deliver > that kind of flexibility. However, FreeBSD has done good > work in providing a system that allows binary upgrades > both for the OS (freebsd-update) and ports (pkg), which > is a real improvement compared to what was present 10 > years ago (with the "classic" infrastructures, before > the revision of the build system and the introduction > of pkg). > I build everything from source. That only binary thing I use are proproiary blobs. rpm --freshen works 100% better. > > > >>>>> Common consensus is to use RELEASE and the security patches. >>>>> This can be done with freebsd-update easily. For those who >>>>> wish to experiment with bleeding-edge software, STABLE is >>>>> the right choice, but it requires building from source. >>>>> And those who are applying experimental (!) changes, for >>>>> example kernel and OS developers, or testers, use HEAD, >>>>> fully aware of what I mentioned before. >>>> >>>> I've heard that bedtime story all too many times. >>> >>> It seems to be reality for the majority of FreeBSD users, and >>> it is consistent with the descriptions of the development >>> cycle of FreeBSD. >>> >> >> What is the average uptime? I have a raspberry pi running Arch linux >> with an up time of over 3 years. It will be retired when I finish my >> scratch built linux system for a Raspberry Pi 3. >> >> The Arch system on the pi was built by me, I don't use binaryies from >> any source. Binary blobs for hardware excepted. >> >> If I can not compile it I don't use it. > > I feel the same about software installations myself, but the > ability to use precompiled packages that just work (TM) is > very convenient. PCs today are more than powerful enough > to build things fron source, except you consider software > as complex as a whole operating system, such as the common > web browsers and office suites. Again, precompiled packages > make installation and upgrading (!) eaiser / faster. > I have no need for fast... I like correct a whole lot better. > > >>>>>> ports in-stability... I was using Head then I was told to use quarterly >>>>>> and then told that it does not receive security updates, well not all >>>>>> and not on a regular basis. Then I was told to use head WTF? >>>>> You are mixing ports and OS. The ports tree (and the >>>>> corresponding repository) can be reset at RELEASE, you >>>>> can choose a quarterly updated branch (often used in >>>>> combination with a RELEASE-pX system), or you can keep >>>>> your ports tree as current as possible. You can use tools >>>>> like portsnap (snapshots) or svn (tracking), or just use >>>>> the ports tree that came with your RELEASE install - it >>>>> depends on what kind of software (versions) you intend to >>>>> run. Always (!) choose your tools depending on the task. >>>>> There is no "one size fits all egg-laying wool-milk-sow". ;-) >>>>> >>>> I mixed no ports,  you see I created meta-ports to install a standard >>>> set of packages and when changing port repos removed all the packages >>>> and rm -rf /usr/local, then built and installed the meta-port package. >>> >>> Maybe you misunderstood: >>> >>> "Mixing ports and OS" refers to confusing OS updates with ports >>> updates (and OS installation with ports installation for that >>> matter) - compare it to Linux where you don't have something like >>> "the OS" per se, instead it's a selection of individual packages >>> made by the distribution maintainers about what they consider the >>> core functionality of their distribution. >> >> If one builds a base OS and adds "ports" there is no mixing. I have >> heard too many people say that. I see no evidence. > > OS and ports live in independent worlds. The problem arises > from _confusing_ OS and ports, forgetting about the "barrier" > that keeps your OS fully functional even when you make a total > mess with the ports. Other problems occur when you combine > software installed with "pkg install" and "make install", i. e., > binary packages and stuff built from source with nonstandard (!) > options. In such cases, "pkg lock" or using Poudriere is the > way to go. > No they are really the same concept. In unix you have a base system (minimal) and then add additional packages. If you have a decent package manager you rid yourself on the /usr/local nonsense. > >> If I am running version 9 why should compiling the "latest ports" not >> work. > > This depends on the toolchain that you have on that system. > During FreeBSD 9, the "big revivion" of the port system > happened, if I remember correctly. Newer ports trees won't > build on the old system, and older ports trees aren't even > supported anymore. It's like trying to use "pkg_add" today. :-) > Well when you roll your own you are not burdened by years of bad dicisions like you are stating. I can take a current package and compile and make it work on so called obsolete or EOL systems. With freebsd that is a lot harder and impossible in some cases. > >> You seem to think I build ports on version 11.0 and intend to run >> them on 10.3. Just not the case. > > That was not my assumption. > > > >>> Meta-ports are just an abstraction of ports ("ports that contain, >>> or better, require other ports"), nothing wrong here. They have >>> nothing to do with the OS and its version (RELEASE, STABLE, HEAD), >>> except you have a specific requirement that for example RELEASE >>> doesn't fulfill (yet), but STABLE already does. >>> >> >> meta-packages are everything...if you know what you are doing. >> I use just 4 meta-ports with synth to install a freebsd desktop. > > I see mata-packages at the upcoming "packaged base" to be > able to create a tailored system, for example one where you > can "remove" lpr (read: not install lpr at all) because you > are going to use CUPS anyway. This is the equivalent of > using src.conf to avoid building and installing lpr. Such > "OS meta-packages" could be used to allow fine-grained control > of what to install (at install time, not later on). Well yes more non sense from the freebsd devs. Base should be a minimal unix base system to which you add what you need for the intented purpose. You miss understand what I meant by meta packages. Base should have a minimum set of packages to make it function. It needs to be able to boot to a command line and then be able to install all the other packages, nothing more. > > > >>> Of course just compiling stuff is possible from a regular user >>> account (given that working directories and maybe a staging area >>> can be written to). It would _maybe_ (!) be possible to temporarily >>> install build dependencies (as mentioned above) into such a location >>> as long as root level access isn't needed for execution. >>> >> >> That is why you have a "build system". I build a gcc toolchain just to >> build the "new system". You can not boot strap an OS with out building >> a tool chain to separate you from the host OS. > > With tools like Poudriere, those toolchains are kept within > the jail that serves as a build system. They do not affect > the (host) OS. > The host system will always affect the end result. you can not completely eliminate that. > > >>>>>> no packaged base, the packaged base just isn't usable, and no one wants >>>>>> to listen to alternatives. >>>>> This is something still in development (and with potential of >>>>> improvement). If implemented in a reliable and secure manner, >>>>> it will probably be a positive thing. But only time will tell. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well it WAS promised for release 11.0. >>> >>> Yes, I read that. But would you like to have something becoming >>> mandatory which doesn't really work as expected? Just think about >>> the sc -> vt trouble! :-) >>> >>> >> >> No I would like when a project is going to be undertaken that the folks >> bringing the project would have had an project scope and then used some >> GANTT charing to see if what they are proposing is doable in the time >> slot allotted. Hell it looks like the devls here just start hacking on >> things without any direction. > > A decision was to retire sc... ;-) Yes I know you really liked that. > > > >>>> The whole >>>> process that is currently being used to package base in not sound. >>>> Again no one wanted to listen to different ways to go about packaging >>>> base.  I was going to do that but the amount of work for me to do that >>>> on my own was greater than if I just go back to my scratch built >>>> systems..  Which would YOU do? >>> >>> As long as you don't _need_ a packaged base, stay with what >>> works for you. And if FreeBSD _in general_ doesn't work for >>> you, use Linux instead. There is nothing wrong doing so. >>> >> >> As long as you grant me that and I am allowed........ > > I am not the responsible authority for this specific kind of > permission. I cannot tell you which institution to attend to > because I'm using Linux myself without someone else's proper > permission... :-) > > > >>>>>> After trying packaged base no one could tell >>>>>> me how to go back to the "old" method of updating base. >>>>> You also cannot go back from pkg-based ports to the old way, >>>>> because it's not supported anymore, the build environments >>>>> do not exist anymore, and the old ways don't work anymore. >>>>> >>>>> But in your specific problem, downloading the source (with >>>>> a RELEASE version preferred), from the distribution tarball >>>>> or via svn, then building from source (as explained in the >>>>> comment header of /usr/src/Makefile), should work. >>>>> >>>> I did source upgrades. >>> >>> Did so myself for a long time, with custom kernel, configuration >>> tweaked to meet the exact hardware. But nowadays - maybe I'm just >>> getting older! - I prefer to use binary updates for OS and ports. >>> FOr me, this works as intended, and there is hardly a need to >>> build stuff from source. >>> >> >> I see build from source as security issue....A good habit as I know what >> was installed. Yes some one could place a back door in the source but >> it would not be likely > > On few occassions, it happens. But in how far is building > from (manually unverified) sources on your own system fundamentally > different from using what the FreeBSD build clusters created? > Generally, I understand (and share) the attitude of building > from source as an aspect of security. > > The clusters can be comprimised. I really like when a binary package has changed and it then trashes your computer. Makes me very happy to have to fix broken things I should not have to fix, because of somne ones I got to have this just because I can. > >>>>>> I >>>>>> found a way and it was trival. I have not updated base since 11.0 p10 >>>>>> as I am not up for fixing any breakage if it would occur. >>>>> If I remember correctly, 11.0 doesn't use pkg-base as a default. >>>>> >>>> Well it was implied that that was to be the future starting with 11.0 >>> >>> Maybe in 12.0 then. :-) >>> >>> >> >> I'll never see 12.0, Hell from 11.0 to 11.1 didn't go well for some folks. > > And people complain that FreeBSD 5 was bad! :-) Well maybe it was, I don't know. > > >>>>>> Lack of ability to use modern graphics cards on the "desktop", it seems >>>>>> to have taken a back seat to pkg development. >>>>> Nonsense. Even though you have to think before you buy, there are >>>>> lots of modern graphics cards that work well on FreeBSD. And if >>>>> you don't have a problem using nVidia's binary drivers, they >>>>> usually work quite nicely and enable you a plethora of 3D stuff. >>>>> And pkg has nothing to do with it, as those binary drivers are >>>>> distributed binarily, so nothing can be ported. :-) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not nonsense look here https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics. >>>> >>>> It only works with Radeon HD 7660 or earlier.  Radeon HD 7700 and later >>>> nope. >>>> Nvidia only to GTX 960. >>> >>> Now you can imagine the horror I feel when I need to buy >>> new hardware. That's why I'm using old hardware, simply >>> because it just works(TM)(R)(C). :-) >>> >>> Note the opening paragraph: "The tables below are not an >>> exhaustive list of supported hardware." >>> >>> But... maybe I have a misunderstanding of what the wiki >>> page you mentioned is about. At a point, it reads: >>> "Radeon video cards: AGP cards not supported before >>> FreeBSD 10-CURRENT". I've been using an ATi Radeon 9200 >>> (or was it a 9600?) for many years with FreeBSD 5 and 7, >>> with full 3D support! What was my problem? ;-) >>> >>> >> >> Well on linux I can walk into the local computer store and buy the >> current AMD graphics card and run it... freebsd never, unless I run it >> in vesa mode.... Oh yea I will run out and buy a $500.00 graphics card >> just to run vesa.. I can see that now. > > Don't be stupid. First think, then buy. And "to think" here > includes verification of hardware compatibility. You never > do something wrong this way. And if VESA modes are okay for > simple desktop use, why spend $500 for a GPU? The cheapest > one will do. When you dual boot windos and unix/freebsd/linux I would rather like to have a graphics card made in the last 10 years. freebsd fails that. > > >>>>>> If one is going to be doing major changes how about doing them one at a >>>>>> time and actually finishing them. >>>>> I wish they had been doing this with sc -> vt, but no... you want >>>>> X _and_ text mode? NO SOUP FOR YOU! ;-) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Exactly my point.  When you work for a mega corp (billions of dollars) >>>> you learn how to roll things out where they work 95% of the time.  Yes >>>> you have things happen,  FreeBSD seems to make a mess every time >>>> something is rolled out.  See the difference? >>> >>> As I said, I follow FreeBSD since 4.0, and to be honest, the >>> problem sc -> vt is the _first_ thing (at OS responsibility) >>> that I find really annoying. Except for this specific case, >>> FreeBSD never failed for me in this area. >>> >> >> You time will come. > > I hope not! It always does. > > >>>> tickle a few config files and your done.  One could even install >>>> multiple "function meta packages on a single machine. >>> >>> Why "even"? One of FreeBSD's strength is that you can >>> easily have a server on your desktop. :-) >>> >> >> You go right ahead and do that, I am not even going there. > > I had to do this on few occassions, ranging from office print > servers to internal web servers and shared directories, but > nothing more complex of course. Separation of functionality > is usually preferred, but sometimes, the rule is "Do what I > tell you to do, I know better!" which pays the bills. But I > usually make sure I have written and signed documentation, > stating the risks and predicted problems, so it's not _my_ > fault when something breaks. :-) It is always the system admin fault... didn't you get the memo? > > >>>> This is how I install FreeBSD but with the base package missing. >>>> But I am told I am a rank amature and know nothing of value. >>> >>> You're definitely not a "know nothing" from what you explain. >>> >> >> So that is why no one wants to listen? I know about what I am doing so >> I can not be listened to, so the devs path will not diviate? > > I have no idea, I cannot read people's minds... > It's the my way or no way plan. > >>>> FreeBSD is harder to do this way because of non-packed base and boot >>>> loader issues.  Also with a broken getent makes it harder to >>>> programmically install user into the system. >>> >>> Yes, ripping apart what initially has been one functional unit >>> will cause problems. And imagine the fun when the system cannot >>> start because the scripts require a new shell that hasn't been >>> packaged yet for the base. :-) >>> >> >> Don't have a clue about what you are saying > > Have you ever encountered a system where some "certified > consultant" has removed the system's scripting shell? And > you are not allowed to touch anything, but make it work > again? :-) > Yes I have, on a system from Denmark, it was unix but I don't remember who's. It was not freebsd I do know that.