From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Feb 15 17:21:18 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A539F09BC8 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 17:21:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shepherdjr70@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C586383C3B for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 17:21:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shepherdjr70@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id h74so2205191wme.5 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:21:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=jSW+CV7R+vMEwJKb0NzFGqkdvJmkVRKiNP4wk1Q2GlM=; b=RUDxXO7wXMNGOv9Wv8t74sN8Gbon06+ibGc2fokvKUvYJkNKDShj8oEX5aRL5uKD4N l25Wlk6I2w/k2UWtZKuUAL6eVP68+X1vT7pmRMt7BO2DLnWdS4/ZgVgRfBGJj9sKBMxc 1CSAk6E+VE7enJ2r6umhaUHgTqGQZRtb21wq3NdexZpS1elimgcy4cJiT8y8mq1bTP7H gkOR+tcXda34zzTwAqY8kVcaC/f4Ev/q+PrKJnJlBr1Tjc9E+8x3bCgcztb0IQCJU5XM 5Jsef6Nn1NhVtm0m4jmYrVryKVFPHfhKpFDCGsmpUg0hGUhHf48EQdRJkzkft0+ohYLg g0zA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=jSW+CV7R+vMEwJKb0NzFGqkdvJmkVRKiNP4wk1Q2GlM=; b=NFSw2xAzivZYmfRsN5N5oRtKr+NQDOK5oROA5Pa8y5ZvQImo3yP5rL8hWznwgxCLxP aH2EaKwVhMLEyDKPmP686I8pNpi80fJzE71pkMcA9ylhWvKZJVqTnwznGdLypOZARoar gX2inSvmjr4ustfsDLmLiVdEtNF2D3k3JqUCSJAvVi3LWbPPIXGRaBGIl2Of80GGTBvV FCgoHv6VxbMO1Lp4kqK/75pj+FjjzKUNAX/OqT4v6KOhe22r+Z7vs9H9Vo6h60iqf8LC Uo3/xx16UHafkfkSgB4bVgsZ9jUUW+xtvqSUkLnECSVFRYNgaFlpmTmE5v1U0FH4Qc1q 7lvA== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBR9ldwFNGnlHTrMuosvAqlU8KCLnEstjWsVcejWTPruGi8vyEs ND0FFgJ6nBZStJ0MYPV+IvvHw7GI6TnvpCl+9ttMpA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x226l5u4XyGA2lZxYM/ctvewIVWEixJ87/V9xYz8baV2mzqaW2HMwb8mIauo9qKKL1CFgmd7RgeLwY0Za0PIHdSU= X-Received: by 10.80.144.196 with SMTP id d4mr4250240eda.164.1518715276688; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:21:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.230.131 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.80.230.131 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:21:16 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Shepherd JR Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:21:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 17:21:18 -0000 Feedback From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 00:46:59 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698CAF22593 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:46:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0959F7BC3B for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:46:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B934CF22592; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:46:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A80F22591 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:46:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (mail.karels.net [216.160.39.52]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A187BC3A for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:46:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Received: from mail.karels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.karels.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w1H0kvxN032252 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:46:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mike@karels.net) Message-Id: <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net> To: arch@freebsd.org From: Mike Karels Reply-to: mike@karels.net Subject: ps output line length change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <32250.1518828417.1@mail.karels.net> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:46:57 -0600 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:46:59 -0000 A couple of weeks ago, I sent email on the committers list proposing reversion of r314685 changing the output line length for ps. In particular, it uses unlimited line length if stdout is not a tty. The previous code used the tty width if any of stdout, stderr, or stdin was a tty. The change in r314685 has not been shipped in any release yet. The responses to that email all agreed with reversion. However, there has been some additional discussion in private email. Therefore, I am sending this to arch@. My reasoning is this; 1. The output line length for the following commands should reasonably be the same in an interactive session: ps, ps | more, ps | grep. 2. The previous behavior is the way things have worked since 1990, as Conrad pointed out. As others pointed out, it has long been known that -ww was required to get unlimited lines, e.g. in a script. I don't see any significant justification to change 28 years of precedent. 3. The rationale for the change included that it is easier for scripts (which I maintain are broken if they assume this), and that it doesn't matter if using less with left-right scrolling. We shouldn't make assumptions about what the output is going through, let alone assume left-right scrolling. The previous algorithm was described as magic, but I think it is straightforward. Perhaps a comment is in order. I tried to think of a compromise solution, but the only thing that comes to mind is messy: an environment variable that would enable unlimited line length when the output was not a tty. That would not be easier for scripts. And as Bruce noted, aliasing ps to "ps -ww" does not work with old BSD-stype "ps axu". What do people think should be done? Thanks, Mike ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 02:03:49 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA8EF030E3 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646EF7F05D for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 23B95F030E1; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:03:48 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8451F030E0 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:03:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EEFA7F05C for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:03:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id mrqjeDPgXppe1mrqkeqMbl; Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:03:39 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Bo6zP7f5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=Op4juWPpsa0A:10 a=1QTDH3R-AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YSmn83ib1gz9zqs_wXUA:9 a=7M4Ih6oD_zTUWvVf:21 a=_pV0JO2eKVHIxZDZ:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=A7PbjfUNzwAiWwc5k9lq:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8DAB901; Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w1H23aQ8023047; Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id w1H23ZTE023044; Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201802170203.w1H23ZTE023044@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: mike@karels.net cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ps output line length change In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Karels of "Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:46:57 -0600." <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:03:35 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGacMXlWmM5nxym9m90aZ6Laavg0BAz3xNBJvM1UCnjHlXoIsNYiLgkH7GOC4+PLO/ves2sswKphy+pgWDnsdpH+Wgj17dh8pUDVvDhTu2xTM++LZdFn u1Ug/49Vh/Sa3KRjIpeNV6HyZ7Th9XRjuMjt08Zhr8Hl6L0PhH/egiVzy0y9bbdm5+TU5/8o5PA5kBSoJzrT7jDbzeXT+6CNCDs= X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:03:49 -0000 In message <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net>, Mike Karels writes: > A couple of weeks ago, I sent email on the committers list proposing > reversion of r314685 changing the output line length for ps. In > particular, it uses unlimited line length if stdout is not a tty. > The previous code used the tty width if any of stdout, stderr, or > stdin was a tty. The change in r314685 has not been shipped in > any release yet. > > The responses to that email all agreed with reversion. However, there > has been some additional discussion in private email. Therefore, I > am sending this to arch@. > > My reasoning is this; > > 1. The output line length for the following commands should reasonably > be the same in an interactive session: ps, ps | more, ps | grep. > > 2. The previous behavior is the way things have worked since 1990, > as Conrad pointed out. As others pointed out, it has long been known > that -ww was required to get unlimited lines, e.g. in a script. I > don't see any significant justification to change 28 years of precedent. > > 3. The rationale for the change included that it is easier for scripts > (which I maintain are broken if they assume this), and that it doesn't > matter if using less with left-right scrolling. We shouldn't make > assumptions about what the output is going through, let alone assume > left-right scrolling. The previous algorithm was described as magic, > but I think it is straightforward. Perhaps a comment is in order. > > I tried to think of a compromise solution, but the only thing that > comes to mind is messy: an environment variable that would enable > unlimited line length when the output was not a tty. That would not > be easier for scripts. And as Bruce noted, aliasing ps to "ps -ww" > does not work with old BSD-stype "ps axu". Agreed. I also agree scripts that expect wide output without ww are broken. However Linux ps, at least Red Hat, behaves the same. I believe the change was made to be more Linux compatible and allow greater portability. > > What do people think should be done? That's a tough one. Break Linux compatibility or break BSD compatibility? Generally Linux users use ps -ef which we don't support and columns are different so, Linux compatibility is... well just isn't. My vote is to revert and have an environment variable with defaults, e.g., PS=--linux or something similar. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 06:56:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001B6F14230 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858D86A610 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 46108F1422E; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:26 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33578F1422D for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC24A6A60E for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w1H6uLO3026980; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:21 GMT (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id w1H6uJh8026979; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:19 GMT (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201802170656.w1H6uJh8026979@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:19 +0000 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: mike@karels.net, Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ps output line length change References: <201802170203.w1H23ZTE023044@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: <201802170203.w1H23ZTE023044@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:22 +0000 (GMT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 06:56:27 -0000 Cy Schubert wrote: > That's a tough one. Break Linux compatibility or break BSD > compatibility? > > Generally Linux users use ps -ef which we don't support and columns are > different so, Linux compatibility is... well just isn't. > > My vote is to revert and have an environment variable with defaults, > e.g., PS=--linux or something similar. I agree entirely. This change effectively changes the output data simply due to presence of a pipe. So, the output of "ps" could be somewhat different to "ps | cat".. (*) It's a total break of POLA. It's unnecessary (-ww already exists to achieve it) And I think it will actually make scripts more unreliable going forward... Which version of "ps" are we running? Do we "-ww" or not? Surely we want to remove ambiguity not add it. I know it's a weird one - I remember long long ago getting bitten by scripts that parsed "ps" getting seemingly unexplained truncation. But that's when I learnt how "ps" works, and that's when I learnt of "-ww" Now, if "ps" had never defaulted to tty-width truncation, then that would be fine, but changing how it determines to do so now would be awful, in my opinion. (*) I realise that piped output is often changed to remove control/colour attributes, and "ls" switches off column mode, but the former is a different situation, and the latter? Well, something we have to live with now, and it doesn't really affect the actual raw data that's displayed. Cheers, Jamie From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 15:51:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E11FF1AA57 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30BB78654A for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E90DCF1AA56; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:52 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D674DF1AA54 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org (outbound1b.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.247.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63CAB86545 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-User: 6ac8c2f9-13fa-11e8-bb8e-b35b57339d60 X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound1.ore.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 6ac8c2f9-13fa-11e8-bb8e-b35b57339d60; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w1HFpgZo049613; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 08:51:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1518882702.72050.204.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ps output line length change From: Ian Lepore To: Cy Schubert , mike@karels.net Cc: arch@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 08:51:42 -0700 In-Reply-To: <201802170203.w1H23ZTE023044@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201802170203.w1H23ZTE023044@slippy.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:51:53 -0000 On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 18:03 -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net>, Mike Karels  > writes: > > > > [...] > Agreed. I also agree scripts that expect wide output without ww are  > broken. However Linux ps, at least Red Hat, behaves the same. I believe  > the change was made to be more Linux compatible and allow greater  > portability. > > > > > > > What do people think should be done? > That's a tough one. Break Linux compatibility or break BSD  > compatibility? > > Generally Linux users use ps -ef which we don't support and columns are  > different so, Linux compatibility is... well just isn't. > > My vote is to revert and have an environment variable with defaults,  > e.g., PS=--linux or something similar. > > Linux compatibility is good and desirable, right up to the point where it stomps on BSD compatibility.  I think we should revert to historic behavior. I'm agnostic about whether an env var is a good idea or not.  I use the env vars for LESS and TOP and love the idea, but hate hate hate the names (I've fought with conflicts on the too-common name TOP multiple times over the years, most recently just last week my env var TOP confused some makefile that had a TOP var in it).  Could the var be named something like PS_OPTS? -- Ian From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 21:09:34 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47D6F0F719 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:09:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40BF36CA52 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:09:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id F0C61F0F718; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:09:33 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1E5F0F717 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:09:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F3316CA4F; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:09:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n9gzekwMMrQkon9h0eaWaF; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:06:49 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RPud4bq+ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=Op4juWPpsa0A:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=1QTDH3R-AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=JUDHOqzNt_0Vb9LZyCkA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=A7PbjfUNzwAiWwc5k9lq:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C71A3FA; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w1HL6idM045496; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:06:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id w1HL6hP3045437; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201802172106.w1HL6hP3045437@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Ian Lepore cc: Cy Schubert , mike@karels.net, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ps output line length change In-Reply-To: Message from Ian Lepore of "Sat, 17 Feb 2018 08:51:42 -0700." <1518882702.72050.204.camel@freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:06:43 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMErXtm40aUk4Nu0K8u0AxgvnuYMUu3PYsJ54ZEb3SfSzurJWLDgntN1uf09giWpYOxj45iwF4OONGGJGIErpLHYUbb9MsSd/PzbrkIC4j848QPnB3fz RcQnUfcZMCSFgDa4J3Z8PkDyI90efIabOwYT0s8fU+2+lqHL8iREPP00/emtYs/XDW6tpk2ERqhmDV0BhQf832D5ZpnmkYIouwAYYLaFWkWPvBpj0OGA5nUl X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:09:35 -0000 In message <1518882702.72050.204.camel@freebsd.org>, Ian Lepore writes: > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 18:03 -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > In message <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net>, Mike Karels  > > writes: > > > > > > [...] > > Agreed. I also agree scripts that expect wide output without ww are  > > broken. However Linux ps, at least Red Hat, behaves the same. I believe  > > the change was made to be more Linux compatible and allow greater  > > portability. > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think should be done? > > That's a tough one. Break Linux compatibility or break BSD  > > compatibility? > > > > Generally Linux users use ps -ef which we don't support and columns are  > > different so, Linux compatibility is... well just isn't. > > > > My vote is to revert and have an environment variable with defaults,  > > e.g., PS=--linux or something similar. > > > > > > Linux compatibility is good and desirable, right up to the point where > it stomps on BSD compatibility.  I think we should revert to historic > behavior. > > I'm agnostic about whether an env var is a good idea or not.  I use the > env vars for LESS and TOP and love the idea, but hate hate hate the > names (I've fought with conflicts on the too-common name TOP multiple > times over the years, most recently just last week my env var TOP > confused some makefile that had a TOP var in it).  Could the var be > named something like PS_OPTS? Sure. I'm ok even if there is no Linux compatibility. If we choose an environment variable, I'm ok with any name as long as it makes sense. However Solaris had (I haven't used Solaris since Solaris 9) /usr/ucb for BSD compatible utilities. Should we consider something similar for linux compatibility? -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 21:12:25 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E65F0FC3A for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:12:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2616CE8E for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:12:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C08EEF0FC22; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:12:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF44BF0FC19 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:12:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D8D46CE8A; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:12:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id w1HLCIPv069335; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id w1HLCI2k069334; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201802172112.w1HLCI2k069334@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: ps output line length change In-Reply-To: <201802172106.w1HL6hP3045437@slippy.cwsent.com> To: Cy Schubert Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:12:18 -0800 (PST) CC: Ian Lepore , mike@karels.net, arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:12:25 -0000 > In message <1518882702.72050.204.camel@freebsd.org>, Ian Lepore writes: > > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 18:03 -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > In message <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net>, Mike Karels?? > > > writes: > > > > > > > > [...] > > > Agreed. I also agree scripts that expect wide output without ww are?? > > > broken. However Linux ps, at least Red Hat, behaves the same. I believe?? > > > the change was made to be more Linux compatible and allow greater?? > > > portability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think should be done? > > > That's a tough one. Break Linux compatibility or break BSD?? > > > compatibility? > > > > > > Generally Linux users use ps -ef which we don't support and columns are?? > > > different so, Linux compatibility is... well just isn't. > > > > > > My vote is to revert and have an environment variable with defaults,?? > > > e.g., PS=--linux or something similar. > > > > > > > > > > Linux compatibility is good and desirable, right up to the point where > > it stomps on BSD compatibility. ??I think we should revert to historic > > behavior. > > > > I'm agnostic about whether an env var is a good idea or not. ??I use the > > env vars for LESS and TOP and love the idea, but hate hate hate the > > names (I've fought with conflicts on the too-common name TOP multiple > > times over the years, most recently just last week my env var TOP > > confused some makefile that had a TOP var in it). ??Could the var be > > named something like PS_OPTS? > > Sure. I'm ok even if there is no Linux compatibility. If we choose an > environment variable, I'm ok with any name as long as it makes sense. > > However Solaris had (I haven't used Solaris since Solaris 9) /usr/ucb > for BSD compatible utilities. Should we consider something similar for > linux compatibility? We already ahve the whole linuxlator thing, if they want a linux ps cant they just.. um actually use a linux ps from /compat/linux? I know ps grovels around in a lot of internals but this would, imho, be the route to persue a "linux compatible" ps output. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Feb 17 21:43:27 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4C5F126FF for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4085C6E44F for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EE8E7F126F7; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:43:26 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44A9F126EE for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:43:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AD1F6E447; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:43:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([96.50.22.10]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id nAGRel4A3rQkonAGSeabZi; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:43:25 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=RPud4bq+ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:117 a=jvE2nwUzI0ECrNeyr98KWA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=Op4juWPpsa0A:10 a=iKhvJSA4AAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=1QTDH3R-AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6fDHjQZ3YoCQ3ZK_tLUA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=6RRWYvuy9EcA:10 a=odh9cflL3HIXMm4fY7Wr:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=A7PbjfUNzwAiWwc5k9lq:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy [10.1.1.91]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CBCF52F; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w1HLhMkQ074845; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id w1HLhMvb074842; Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201802172143.w1HLhMvb074842@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: Cy Schubert , Ian Lepore , mike@karels.net, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ps output line length change In-Reply-To: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" of "Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:12:18 -0800." <201802172112.w1HLCI2k069334@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:43:22 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfN43G1efeo4Hkw2QIfy1JprpgBr3bSjPWVwTbEdrFAEFycF4ad7AQRQxhdqGIkQVYjl2VImEr5W7onRjV/p0xNoMpXU+vDWkJyz5Lt1XB6/3o0XSEEWk Vk4ndCSOC05vpT6qALR56CfQr20W8V6Nge83qYu3eHrX5iQbbJsum12oGWDwnt1MZMz7uBQxW24eKKySCLHTXvDHw+s8TOMaDRK4Fb9OTS7O4LEFLitYkHuK fBGjJo/YGFKMedGyqEfmHx8fEMKLpdqagHkxItQttS6ILcDUBw07Gxs81VjnRJ7rEk2xhlCZWuqGWt3iV3NQeXrYlelu/2OUD2hEEE+dQ2J126W4MNwG5rCN z8Q8nXqr X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:43:28 -0000 In message <201802172112.w1HLCI2k069334@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. Gri mes" writes: > > In message <1518882702.72050.204.camel@freebsd.org>, Ian Lepore writes: > > > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 18:03 -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > In message <201802170046.w1H0kvxN032252@mail.karels.net>, Mike Karels?? > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > [...] > > > > Agreed. I also agree scripts that expect wide output without ww are?? > > > > broken. However Linux ps, at least Red Hat, behaves the same. I believe > ?? > > > > the change was made to be more Linux compatible and allow greater?? > > > > portability. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do people think should be done? > > > > That's a tough one. Break Linux compatibility or break BSD?? > > > > compatibility? > > > > > > > > Generally Linux users use ps -ef which we don't support and columns are > ?? > > > > different so, Linux compatibility is... well just isn't. > > > > > > > > My vote is to revert and have an environment variable with defaults,?? > > > > e.g., PS=--linux or something similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linux compatibility is good and desirable, right up to the point where > > > it stomps on BSD compatibility. ??I think we should revert to historic > > > behavior. > > > > > > I'm agnostic about whether an env var is a good idea or not. ??I use the > > > env vars for LESS and TOP and love the idea, but hate hate hate the > > > names (I've fought with conflicts on the too-common name TOP multiple > > > times over the years, most recently just last week my env var TOP > > > confused some makefile that had a TOP var in it). ??Could the var be > > > named something like PS_OPTS? > > > > Sure. I'm ok even if there is no Linux compatibility. If we choose an > > environment variable, I'm ok with any name as long as it makes sense. > > > > However Solaris had (I haven't used Solaris since Solaris 9) /usr/ucb > > for BSD compatible utilities. Should we consider something similar for > > linux compatibility? > > We already ahve the whole linuxlator thing, if they want a linux > ps cant they just.. um actually use a linux ps from /compat/linux? > I know ps grovels around in a lot of internals but this would, > imho, be the route to persue a "linux compatible" ps output. Except for linuxy scripts that might be in ports or apps ported to FreeBSD. To argue against myself, that's what porting is. Either way, revert back to BSD compatibility. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.