From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 16:57:53 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE57614BB47D for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4C28C174 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2F57614BB47C; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:53 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C71314BB47B for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B10CA8C172 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85FA39232 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6056CB474F; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:57:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:57:51 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iole3onwjmfq3agg" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B10CA8C172 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.99 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:2610:1c1:1::/48, country:US] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:57:54 -0000 --iole3onwjmfq3agg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi everyone, I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) Why: 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the expectation are bigger 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most people are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD and most linuxes 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the major complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers and also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not yet installed/configured a bourne compatible shell What this proposal is _NOT_ about: 1/ the removal of tcsh from base 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh What do you think? Best regards, Bapt --iole3onwjmfq3agg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAlxLQAwACgkQY4mL3PG3 PlomwxAAsbJZ6/0FCDqIM7w2XD/km+xXZBDPB9154Tgvi+GckDdvvLajTo2XK4hz M2/42N1TVed80tFc6+cmia3i4URiHZSoE8P9jnCYHI2n+pRzALxsll8toFmbFCUt 7WXHkaRI3Bln/I/XCwEkyC0rcXN+PZAF1oUBej4yobx8qBKBorBDJHBhMB6fOrQz hH+yAGyKEmZAvhSrxX/+4cwHdLdvR55db4aj4KJgcrasAl0ZYLKh4FeONoOJGnBQ AUS7W6lBx2MWWr06GS1Gz37xN9lqRNKVWPW9GPVUXyZSJr66my7TQoyIQss+DhVi YCh2MDaQyQHfoUP0pePC29b3Kq5liD5vMYyktCklH0DEml5EGeYMf+3BIHJjcMfk ohAz/4QGZlbVDdcA4/g0e1pCqkTebNBl/pgo8FdNVw3+PGDAz/0z0JbutXYc2MOw PVAC5IRVGc6MlqnEb9h+fCcGEaeKrwp0g9Z16PErpsRUbMzjjQJx3hqiI8nFSfuF SUJipkiHL/VLf69NtFSBMfeDLOvD7b7Qi5fBvG0ypFz/wQlYNCRRluWMAPb89xqJ 5kGaR7xC9miGuqRs4pDyWaFjifTIncUZvf0PpNvNkkKHnonStVCH9Mt1c3rIrUbM 6+vTcUdNBJfSkfRDg0XfXZKy0bWz2R1cmrIImugoAWvYK3oav6E= =gqge -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iole3onwjmfq3agg-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:10:33 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09AD614BB88B for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:10:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3150B8CAC6 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:10:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E427914BB888; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:10:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BECAF14BB887 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:10:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pg1-f170.google.com (mail-pg1-f170.google.com [209.85.215.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13C358CAC2; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:10:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 6yearold@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id g189so4456000pgc.5; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:10:31 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iLoZ0x10cjdUKkG1zmH2imH/uYHW2FawSV4Hudd2dpI=; b=gQdzRBcd4hpF2KBev1cjJA5dMZhmSvOmVs4MH2vWQGDdWhSRsetplWe5imovKjNj6F p/Qxu9/EvKkw7M0Cv9zhhDN29h7b0Q1FVix89ORs7pyHxAdzlaTvcmSKa4Ib9P+WfEFE kRxc1K+ZGT2P75OsJQgC4wT1cdb9wlH+NZnpjd/Jr6TbbnhugOU6EshMUOcZOTtDEbuR vM0VBICvcSpOGQteLysJq6nPShroWaOUzuf2RWE1OQAMLLRX1z5TMzzO5ZGquV17b2dh NAKYboFBU+9e0Bq79XkAx9vZxeuRTT8IYeGMjyzihyDyu88uRZWkTuigZjJTfRcBnPCR ImyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukcvaxrVud/IVZSz6Z3gQoHOAALc/IQoGk/c5dSK1voyUYyg/1FM SmKMEVkDfjBvwqYcH0CWucOX0HIYdL0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN64vNvspuYM+K2+4npR7+d5WMjNj2f+27z9PtmIf/TnOHN6pPvt+DgNWe+xloZUIaKXg02NLA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:c101:: with SMTP id i1mr11723242pfg.80.1548436229265; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com (mail-pl1-f169.google.com. [209.85.214.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u87sm65783490pfi.2.2019.01.25.09.10.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id w4so4851362plz.1; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:10:28 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d891:: with SMTP id b17mr12006241plz.80.1548436228645; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:10:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> From: Gleb Popov Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:10:02 +0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 13C358CAC2 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.977,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:10:33 -0000 On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:58 PM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > Why: > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > expectation are bigger > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most > people > are used to with bash Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? If not, this proposal looks like another "let's do like Linux" thing. and shells as default root shell on other BSD and most > linuxes > 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the major > complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers and > also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not yet > installed/configured a bourne compatible shell > > What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > 1/ the removal of tcsh from base > 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > > What do you think? > Best regards, > Bapt > From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:13:23 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7204814BBAAC for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grembo@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1068CE73 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grembo@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C5AF314BBAAA; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:22 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F9914BBAA9 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grembo@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.grem.de (outcast.grem.de [213.239.217.27]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 114768CE6E for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from grembo@freebsd.org) Received: (qmail 21718 invoked by uid 89); 25 Jan 2019 17:13:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.101.77?) (mg@grem.de@195.30.121.97) by mail.grem.de with ESMTPA; 25 Jan 2019 17:13:14 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base From: Michael Gmelin X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16C101) In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:13:13 +0100 Cc: arch@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> To: Baptiste Daroussin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 114768CE6E X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.971,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:23 -0000 > On 25. Jan 2019, at 17:57, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >=20 > Hi everyone, >=20 > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >=20 > Why: > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > expectation are bigger > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most pe= ople > are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD and mo= st > linuxes > 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the major > complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers an= d > also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not yet > installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >=20 > What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > 1/ the removal of tcsh from base > 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh >=20 > What do you think? Without knowing mksh in detail, based on your description I=E2=80=99m in fav= or of replacing csh with something closer to bash as the default root shell.= In over 20 years of FreeBSD I didn=E2=80=99t manage to warm up with csh and= none of the people I introduced to FreeBSD in that time did either. Michael= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:13:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8C014BBAC3; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE5BD8CE84; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n52fgiY7DnBo4n52ggzZez; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:13:24 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J8fUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=GVNTdyTywv08V8XI7aIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 532C7C44; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:13:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:12:58 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfOVF8FDxpRwCkfgNdL+5Rf/tL9jSyZgecSKKmfvymE4qNGY4pWnJkbgy+zFy/QpZP6jFx1cAvZaNxyZBMr0rgadZZhPrOAkWhSM8BGsPS+CvQwLxokU4 eiAOBi7WBCjxX1LpD659OLDtW2O5QWfuYcdR1sHDp23emnFu1MeGSPEXiiLrvHDtAWglM2vHrBWQtH5BNtyzi1SPcbjD7IpvcdTLQl8hGGqbw831uPFmUryY beWnQ1pZCTORH+cnhZJ9Dw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: CE5BD8CE84 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.96 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.963,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:13:32 -0000 On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin = wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I would like to import mksh in base, https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh=2Eht= m >And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > >Why: >1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting >the >expectation are bigger >2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most >people >are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD and >most >linuxes >3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the >major >complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers >and >also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not >yet >installed/configured a bourne compatible shell > >What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >1/ the removal of tcsh from base >2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > >What do you think? >Best regards, >Bapt Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn shell=2E = EPL is compatible with the BSD license=2E Personally, I've been toying with= the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now=2E As to replacing root's shell, replacing tcsh is a large POLA violation=2E = Maybe give users the option at install time instead=2E=20 --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:17:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610C814BBC13 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:17:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17858D0A6 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 859E314BBC12; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:17:35 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630C714BBC11 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from shxd.cx (mail.shxd.cx [64.201.244.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0384E8D0A2; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from devin@shxd.cx) Received: from [76.77.180.168] (port=61959 helo=eskarina.lan) by shxd.cx with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1gn534-0009ca-1b; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:13:46 -0800 From: Devin Teske Message-Id: <69E462A0-B9E9-4D26-898F-A96036227E65@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:17:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Devin Teske , Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org To: Michael Gmelin References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Sender: devin@shxd.cx X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0384E8D0A2 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.94 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.939,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:17:36 -0000 > On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Michael Gmelin = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 25. Jan 2019, at 17:57, Baptiste Daroussin = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi everyone, >>=20 >> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm >> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >>=20 >> Why: >> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting = the >> expectation are bigger >> 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what = most people >> are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD = and most >> linuxes >> 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the = major >> complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new = comers and >> also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not = yet >> installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >>=20 >> What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >> 1/ the removal of tcsh from base >> 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh >>=20 >> What do you think? >=20 > Without knowing mksh in detail, based on your description I=E2=80=99m = in favor of replacing csh with something closer to bash as the default = root shell. In over 20 years of FreeBSD I didn=E2=80=99t manage to warm = up with csh and none of the people I introduced to FreeBSD in that time = did either. >=20 Working at Vicor for 10 years, where phk and jelischer used to work, = nearly everyone there was well-versed in csh. I learned a lot of cool = stuff and features it had to offer (such as "repeat N cmd"). Now the = topic of replacing csh root shell with a bourne variant, I can't help = but think of those old-hands at Vicor. The people that, every time I = have lunch with, teach me ever more lore and impart priceless historical = data points. --=20 Devin= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:27:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E2214BC330 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5198D794 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id E5F9714BC32F; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:51 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41A614BC32E for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [IPv6:2001:19f0:300:2185:a:dead:bad:faff]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62BA18D791; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jamie@catflap.org) Received: from donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x0PHRnhA094804; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:49 GMT (envelope-from jamie@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) id x0PHRniq094803; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:49 GMT (envelope-from jamie) From: Jamie Landeg-Jones Message-Id: <201901251727.x0PHRniq094803@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:49 +0000 Organization: Dyslexic Fish To: grembo@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org Cc: dteske@freebsd.org, bapt@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <69E462A0-B9E9-4D26-898F-A96036227E65@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <69E462A0-B9E9-4D26-898F-A96036227E65@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net [104.207.135.49]); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:49 +0000 (GMT) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:27:52 -0000 Heavy tcsh user here - strictly for interactive use (I use bourne shell for shell scripting) Still, as long as it continues in base (and I'd be first to volunteer to maintain that if needed - it already contains a few patches of mine), then that's ok cheers, Jamie From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:37:44 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5D914BC5E8 for ; 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[209.85.166.42]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u18sm10686160iom.15.2019.01.25.09.37.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-f42.google.com with SMTP id k7so8353839iob.6; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:37:35 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6111:: with SMTP id v17mr7769994iob.107.1548437855821; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:37:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org From: Conrad Meyer Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:37:24 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Gleb Popov Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A52628DBF3 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.970,0]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:37:44 -0000 On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 9:11 AM Gleb Popov wrote: > Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? Sure, I am. I used Linux for about a decade, probably exclusively with bash, before using FreeBSD at all. I don't know enough about mksh to comment on it, though. Best, Conrad From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 17:42:05 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EF514BC7F0 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:42:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CC98E081 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:42:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B509314BC7EF; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:42:04 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926CD14BC7EE for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:42:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2848E8E07B; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:42:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from amvandemore@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id c2so8338040iom.12; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:42:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ij69+4Uxb1o39DLHsCG2mv/zku1abfBeozKZpix0AiQ=; b=nd90wKIlYMpAnPfXi5kuh0mX2TfVJpWeA0yBjwKeJLEPycP4mLAhFHA5tJpkEZeG/e Hh5ZEUKVejhADj39tzJUW+YbZWmg3AEQ4hHjpoUC7T2TEKs4AkWxllRL25zfvC0HRK8c 2EVLMBo4zZOo7Wc/7Q5vLyx9hKUsoOEc8xvYLXUpR3jGbcRHkoqqJPtloljeiM/elwP3 UsONtGpFHX0djkyuE5uZZDeJWYTr3kgpGvY0QXnBbfH7W+6QYwDhHFQaIZmGJ0TGyYfN yo9k+wCz4CMEKy54wZAEvfu225yCEzCy13FHm9UJe1W5N+Hzh3HhRKInXhyXWe04iH1D pphA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ij69+4Uxb1o39DLHsCG2mv/zku1abfBeozKZpix0AiQ=; b=euLcOfJnyjed4+MhNVOXVZf6FaZcIj+wrMmNCy372ElcwuyyOmXx9gscuH8muqPemn 8E++VSCF2uVbY5qUtyX63JbFQZyaEKodUyQe7bTcDvGwGWMQyKF+dertoOutu1vmGlZu q9iM7vz76/3hziZ7b+u57S4fkBIJZGGaNMTWbsWKD6U7dcz7jkjitK0ZP74HW4GIaOmX Tzi+P/Susi0K0q8HI9B0B0zDwp0cwHWe6k7hN0l0uM6hv9bF8HkFa+BlqQ83iikS8WHh Zx4CXV26UgRlBPV/umvnE2sHCxP8S1buBW3ZahZP9J7Y2NH+1ZRhDlNZ/pPqrkZ8IVi8 pMhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukduyyRbbbMs1O7E9ISUdwprqDBODOLWEMAMJeqQjjYbRN9TFX1r rCZBmg9M4gAty/+FlpNG6m/Joxaqv8oYh/g5rGvh9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4QHahGDeGKBhHLiStYXzwYrQEHVNztLz0l1d8mYiPPjQSzjuH7XoxoeL5SV32SQm5ufUnsyzR6kyzn2qJaftI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6b02:: with SMTP id g2mr6894282ioc.18.1548438123131; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:42:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> From: Adam Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:41:51 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2848E8E07B X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.89 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.893,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:42:05 -0000 On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:58 AM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > Why: > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > expectation are bigger > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most > people > are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD and > most > linuxes > 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the major > complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers and > also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not yet > installed/configured a bourne compatible shell > > What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > 1/ the removal of tcsh from base > 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > > What do you think? > Best regards, > Bapt > I do not wish to have a bash like root shell since imo its interactive mode isn't that great. I don't think conformity is a great argument for change in this regard. I don't see any other advantage to this change. I could be wrong but I also think it might be incorrect to say bash is the default root shell on other BSD's. If there is some change to the root shell, I'd rather see it to be zsh which does have a good interactive mode. -- Adam From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 18:27:04 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7D414BD7A1 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAA48FD81 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 718F914BD7A0; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:03 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E77314BD79F for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3FD78FD7D; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B76CF9C0A; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.0.17] (207.141.6.93.rev.sfr.net [93.6.141.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 734D1B47C4; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:27:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:26:58 +0100 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Adam CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" From: Baptiste Daroussin Message-ID: <3C023956-1B69-440E-844B-E09D0C7D9EBE@FreeBSD.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: F3FD78FD7D X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.984,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:27:04 -0000 Le 25 janvier 2019 18:41:51 GMT+01:00, Adam a = =C3=A9crit : >On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:58 AM Baptiste Daroussin >wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh=2E= htm >> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >> >> Why: >> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting >the >> expectation are bigger >> 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what >most >> people >> are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD >and >> most >> linuxes >> 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the >major >> complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new >comers and >> also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not >yet >> installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >> >> What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >> 1/ the removal of tcsh from base >> 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh >> >> What do you think? >> Best regards, >> Bapt >> > >I do not wish to have a bash like root shell since imo its interactive >mode >isn't that great=2E I don't think conformity is a great argument for >change >in this regard=2E I don't see any other advantage to this change=2E I >could >be wrong but I also think it might be incorrect to say bash is the >default >root shell on other BSD's=2E I am not saying bash is the default but bourne like shell on openbsd for i= nstance it is a variant or ksh which mksh is a fork of, for example > >If there is some change to the root shell, I'd rather see it to be zsh >which does have a good interactive mode=2E zsh is big and evolving quickly, imho not a good candidate for base From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 18:32:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 604D214BE082 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:32:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D4568484 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:32:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6AE3914BE081; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:32:01 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5945214BE080 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:32:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C74B46847C; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:32:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id p4so11343022wrt.7; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :references:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=42zyBZGIfHXITnva8pGLe4n/tgGfpwr0P0npCbdt50Q=; b=nPqi0uXeUQYmJL7UPmVBXP3NG6uTFDh9tuNSaEu1R+uPoSR1aAdsfr46DZmGSxvs35 PTMIeiiC7qUAu1N13TwMJDkxhRO1NnKnG0b0dZId+7dKqPf6GQxIVmMrU4KxqRVydCjS FxvEbDgP9MrFiHaq/iG1tJr6eQxDBrNqD4DJnlcCTf+7RCh8Rrpz3eYECcxbpzHXBQtK YwvjZ/5YttKByjBSROaiQivXTj7Qtts4usnYFxwK0HIN+zoIU/fWmXx653EPbczw8D6G VrelJObdux/IBz5bsLtlCoqcjTMWKDSinWiln0fvcu3z44TsjrWhpxwuuTj9FwsWsGFs 3PeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=42zyBZGIfHXITnva8pGLe4n/tgGfpwr0P0npCbdt50Q=; b=ENEpJn1nqC2NFaj/G1OkT1DoZC+RJMykTQzWVdm5cMW8FKyNs7QW+w4Q1LnbErQ+r2 XWUNfZhBur1P9W02USFCjIVD54wHeo6SD1vrIcD3tRtC4X/Yue62zkiwguqF9P8XVmxl YVj5EijZNbCLpBi11UB9XVBuP3UVNd9V9CzT9EgxQ6PjUetq3tVCq7NBQd6ssL8t87uc uQ7jFby82AKKGchDZFT6vuFZe+QKl74y++oEn/dB77lgYYtEz27xs0CclPvokw3IpLXs u8UbvA7EKxeT44sjCMwJ9eslWJnS2AKf+TSm9GejBPop/JQZXgyDArchBXyIeKQVcHJE guHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf6soP8XmRxGxvBAKWxGAL6Nil/DoNMuo1ib9XRdNkr+wKQ0cnw vty0OUQHgnGc/nYDgXslfmYSasm3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5x0+dg8HpXB7EsiKTLYdDnfwgAlJkjL4FheBj1e+rUxywXxaXn0Dp+eLTG0u4JEG9fR99XTA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f308:: with SMTP id i8mr12063792wro.219.1548441119132; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from v2 (cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust461.5-4.cable.virginm.net. [82.1.209.206]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n9sm86285297wrx.80.2019.01.25.10.31.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:31:58 -0800 (PST) Sender: =?UTF-8?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=C5=82a?= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 06:43:45 +0000 From: Edward Tomasz =?utf-8?Q?Napiera=C5=82a?= To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125064345.GA25776@v2> Mail-Followup-To: Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C74B46847C X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.973,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 18:32:02 -0000 On 0125T1757, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) Yes, please. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:07:58 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F09C14BEDE7; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:07:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32BFC6B042; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:07:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04137A067; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:07:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.0.17] (207.141.6.93.rev.sfr.net [93.6.141.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B3A5FB47F6; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:07:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:07:55 +0100 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Cy Schubert , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org From: Baptiste Daroussin Message-ID: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 32BFC6B042 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:07:58 -0000 Le 25 janvier 2019 18:12:58 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert a =C3=A9crit : >On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin > wrote: >>Hi everyone, >> >>I would like to import mksh in base, https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh=2Eh= tm >>And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >> >>Why: >>1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting >>the >>expectation are bigger >>2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what >most >>people >>are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD >and >>most >>linuxes >>3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the >>major >>complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new >comers >>and >>also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not >>yet >>installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >> >>What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >>1/ the removal of tcsh from base >>2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh >> >>What do you think? >>Best regards, >>Bapt > >Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn shell=2E >EPL is compatible with the BSD license=2E Personally, I've been toying >with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now=2E > The reason I chose mksh is because it is heavily maintained and from the t= esting I have done it was the "nicer" interface >As to replacing root's shell, replacing tcsh is a large POLA violation=2E It will not replace in existing installation just make it the default in n= ew installation I can t see how this is a POLA violation if it is in new se= tup on new major version (upgrades won t be affacted) > Maybe give users the option at install time instead=2E=20 Doable, unsure it is worth it but yes we can do that if that is asked a lo= t From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:10:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633CF14BEF2C for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:10:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@vangyzen.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04EC6B1F8 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:10:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@vangyzen.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7E4D314BEF2B; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:10:53 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5900A14BEF2A for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:10:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@vangyzen.net) Received: from smtp.vangyzen.net (hotblack.vangyzen.net [IPv6:2607:fc50:1000:7400:216:3eff:fe72:314f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDC1B6B1F1; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:10:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from eric@vangyzen.net) Received: from cerise.vangyzen.net (unknown [70.97.188.230]) by smtp.vangyzen.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9BEA156468; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:10:51 -0600 (CST) From: Eric van Gyzen Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:10:50 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: Gleb Popov , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" To: cem@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: EDC1B6B1F1 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.975,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:10:54 -0000 > On Jan 25, 2019, at 11:37 AM, Conrad Meyer wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 9:11 AM Gleb Popov wrote: >> Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? >=20 > Sure, I am. I used Linux for about a decade, probably exclusively > with bash, before using FreeBSD at all. I don't know enough about > mksh to comment on it, though. Ditto, except only 2 years on Linux before coming to FreeBSD. I tried = tcsh, since it was the default and in base, but I hated it for = interactive use. Notably absent are one-line =E2=80=9Cfor" loops. On = new installs, after networking is up, my very first command is =E2=80=9Cpk= g install bash [and others]=E2=80=9D. I would love to see any license-compatible Bourne-like shell in base and = the default. Our /bin/sh is a lot better for interactive use than it = was years ago (thanks mostly to Jilles!), but it would be nice to keep = /bin/sh small and fast, while taking advantage of upstream = maintainership of a full-featured interactive shell. Eric= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:12:40 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086D214BF0E7; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:12:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 678CB6B508; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:12:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n6tygS2w7MRX3n6tzgGnC7; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:12:32 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TL87tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=QsR1G9vt9al2VlgSkp0A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E7BB1E47; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:13:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:12:06 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <3C023956-1B69-440E-844B-E09D0C7D9EBE@FreeBSD.org> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <3C023956-1B69-440E-844B-E09D0C7D9EBE@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , Adam CC: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <479572CC-DF40-4632-AB19-FB3830ABCDA3@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNM8I9t369tlUQfE9E7U2nGndEySvfgqQuWjSMu49+xqXsKuYKuTOULoWa+LxfEQkTbIESBWMpXRii1hD3QzKFXjDKu6Z7EQiNfsJWhlUqyomyy0WAyh EZe5gi63qrm1JkYD5Qk3gs0QQyKVgxt8EuDihp6So2rWpEBTI1w2bCdBZyQFJlNwvXBywiqVqKivDmh3bpQc+l4e0YXS03NnuVhnw5Du1pzpGLmuTW/yJ3Cj lsGMJ2Ly+oE904Sois/cbHj5221OZovJkbGHBJtaRiA= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 678CB6B508 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:12:40 -0000 On January 25, 2019 10:26:58 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > >Le 25 janvier 2019 18:41:51 GMT+01:00, Adam a >=C3=A9crit : >>On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:58 AM Baptiste Daroussin >>wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh= =2Ehtm >>> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >>> >>> Why: >>> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells >fitting >>the >>> expectation are bigger >>> 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what >>most >>> people >>> are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD >>and >>> most >>> linuxes >>> 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the >>major >>> complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new >>comers and >>> also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have >not >>yet >>> installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >>> >>> What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >>> 1/ the removal of tcsh from base >>> 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh >>> >>> What do you think? >>> Best regards, >>> Bapt >>> >> >>I do not wish to have a bash like root shell since imo its interactive >>mode >>isn't that great=2E I don't think conformity is a great argument for >>change >>in this regard=2E I don't see any other advantage to this change=2E I >>could >>be wrong but I also think it might be incorrect to say bash is the >>default >>root shell on other BSD's=2E > > >I am not saying bash is the default but bourne like shell on openbsd >for instance it is a variant or ksh which mksh is a fork of, for >example > >> >>If there is some change to the root shell, I'd rather see it to be zsh >>which does have a good interactive mode=2E > >zsh is big and evolving quickly, imho not a good candidate for base >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-arch@freebsd=2Eorg mailing list >https://lists=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd=2Eorg" Mksh is not a fork of ksh93=2E It is a fork of pdksh=2E If we are to impo= rt a ksh, let's import the real ksh=2E Not some clone=2E=20 --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:15:54 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BFFF14BF1AA; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:15:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0BF36B61A; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:15:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-3.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC416A18F; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:15:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Baptiste Daroussin , Cy Schubert , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> From: John Baldwin Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jhb@FreeBSD.org; keydata= mQGiBETQ+XcRBADMFybiq69u+fJRy/0wzqTNS8jFfWaBTs5/OfcV7wWezVmf9sgwn8TW0Dk0 c9MBl0pz+H01dA2ZSGZ5fXlmFIsee1WEzqeJzpiwd/pejPgSzXB9ijbLHZ2/E0jhGBcVy5Yo /Tw5+U/+laeYKu2xb0XPvM0zMNls1ah5OnP9a6Ql6wCgupaoMySb7DXm2LHD1Z9jTsHcAQMD /1jzh2BoHriy/Q2s4KzzjVp/mQO5DSm2z14BvbQRcXU48oAosHA1u3Wrov6LfPY+0U1tG47X 1BGfnQH+rNAaH0livoSBQ0IPI/8WfIW7ub4qV6HYwWKVqkDkqwcpmGNDbz3gfaDht6nsie5Z pcuCcul4M9CW7Md6zzyvktjnbz61BADGDCopfZC4of0Z3Ka0u8Wik6UJOuqShBt1WcFS8ya1 oB4rc4tXfSHyMF63aPUBMxHR5DXeH+EO2edoSwViDMqWk1jTnYza51rbGY+pebLQOVOxAY7k do5Ordl3wklBPMVEPWoZ61SdbcjhHVwaC5zfiskcxj5wwXd2E9qYlBqRg7QeSm9obiBCYWxk d2luIDxqaGJARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+iGAEExECACAFAkTQ+awCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgID AQIeAQIXgAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BI6RAJ9S97fvbME+3hxzE3JUyUZ6vTewDACdE1stFuSfqMvM jomvZdYxIYyTUpC5Ag0ERND5ghAIAPwsO0B7BL+bz8sLlLoQktGxXwXQfS5cInvL17Dsgnr3 1AKa94j9EnXQyPEj7u0d+LmEe6CGEGDh1OcGFTMVrof2ZzkSy4+FkZwMKJpTiqeaShMh+Goj XlwIMDxyADYvBIg3eN5YdFKaPQpfgSqhT+7El7w+wSZZD8pPQuLAnie5iz9C8iKy4/cMSOrH YUK/tO+Nhw8Jjlw94Ik0T80iEhI2t+XBVjwdfjbq3HrJ0ehqdBwukyeJRYKmbn298KOFQVHO EVbHA4rF/37jzaMadK43FgJ0SAhPPF5l4l89z5oPu0b/+5e2inA3b8J3iGZxywjM+Csq1tqz hltEc7Q+E08AAwUIAL+15XH8bPbjNJdVyg2CMl10JNW2wWg2Q6qdljeaRqeR6zFus7EZTwtX sNzs5bP8y51PSUDJbeiy2RNCNKWFMndM22TZnk3GNG45nQd4OwYK0RZVrikalmJY5Q6m7Z16 4yrZgIXFdKj2t8F+x613/SJW1lIr9/bDp4U9tw0V1g3l2dFtD3p3ZrQ3hpoDtoK70ioIAjjH aIXIAcm3FGZFXy503DOA0KaTWwvOVdYCFLm3zWuSOmrX/GsEc7ovasOWwjPn878qVjbUKWwx Q4QkF4OhUV9zPtf9tDSAZ3x7QSwoKbCoRCZ/xbyTUPyQ1VvNy/mYrBcYlzHodsaqUDjHuW+I SQQYEQIACQUCRND5ggIbDAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BCO8AJ9j1dWVQWxw/YdTbEyrRKOY8YZNwwCf afMAg8QvmOWnHx3wl8WslCaXaE8= Message-ID: <9036c9e8-ba86-6e62-e2db-4dea40ef8406@FreeBSD.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:14:23 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A0BF36B61A X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.974,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:15:54 -0000 On 1/25/19 11:07 AM, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >> As to replacing root's shell, replacing tcsh is a large POLA violation. > > It will not replace in existing installation just make it the default in new installation I can t see how this is a POLA violation if it is in new setup on new major version (upgrades won t be affacted) I'm mostly struggling to find a reason to care what is in root's /etc/passwd line, but aside from that, for people who use mergemaster or etcupdate, it will try to merge the new shell during an upgrade of an existing system. Granted, if you have an actual root password set the line will be a conflict, but it's not strictly true to say that existing installs wouldn't be affected. >> Maybe give users the option at install time instead. > > Doable, unsure it is worth it but yes we can do that if that is asked a lot I think we should avoid the tendency to add new questions to the install if we can avoid it. I often see this mentioned for potential POLA-type changes and I think there are two issues: 1) it doesn't address upgrades, and 2) we should keep a streamlined install process as much as possible IMO. If we start piling up a bunch of extra questions during the install it will just make users' eyes glaze over. -- John Baldwin                                                                              From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:24:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C8314BF484; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:24:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC6E56BA74; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:24:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n75tgS9OzMRX3n75ugGq8t; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:24:50 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TL87tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=VbAVxdHerZVwCRJtpRQA:9 a=s0mv6imwWayWoiVk:21 a=-vMhdjYSkLB6WWO9:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2EABEE74; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:25:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:24:26 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Baptiste Daroussin , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <66278F75-5162-46A5-BF2A-DC4C3F0F35BD@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCESxuSa/96+3JIpK3t7a+Y6oPnLGw1dNJBiPQQyLCj5dvAzbof9cBM2qVGEaBTOW1CSueUKkY/v2bdKQBerh4EGdQEP1fDChKxa6Nxrk9OSXzBk92g1 wH8dkmPq9bjV+M7CsqiloD2+NtH7+75URJNTEt+eYhQJkCeoec0zhsQ/dW/1u7SIPN8W6Aog6tq8nOjaBhqpbNjnuE4soaEguNJ1OIgrUaMRzgVWvNtnT9HD OLieOLeWGS0EFZAULTG8bw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: AC6E56BA74 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.988,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:24:52 -0000 First time I've tried replying inline on this newer phone=2E Bear with me a= s this reply may not look like I intend it to=2E On January 25, 2019 11:07:55 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > >Le 25 janvier 2019 18:12:58 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert > a =C3=A9crit : >>On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin >> wrote: >>>Hi everyone, >>> >>>I would like to import mksh in base, https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh=2E= htm >>>And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >>> >>>Why: >>>1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting >>>the >>>expectation are bigger >>>2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what >>most >>>people >>>are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD >>and >>>most >>>linuxes >>>3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the >>>major >>>complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new >>comers >>>and >>>also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not >>>yet >>>installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >>> >>>What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >>>1/ the removal of tcsh from base >>>2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh >>> >>>What do you think? >>>Best regards, >>>Bapt >> >>Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn >shell=2E >>EPL is compatible with the BSD license=2E Personally, I've been toying >>with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now=2E >> > >The reason I chose mksh is because it is heavily maintained and from >the testing I have done it was the "nicer" interface > Ksh93 is also heavily maintained=2E Look at their github activity=2E My k= sh93-devel port has been tracking updates (I consider important)=2E >>As to replacing root's shell, replacing tcsh is a large POLA >violation=2E > >It will not replace in existing installation just make it the default >in new installation I can t see how this is a POLA violation if it is >in new setup on new major version (upgrades won t be affacted) > >> Maybe give users the option at install time instead=2E=20 > >Doable, unsure it is worth it but yes we can do that if that is asked a >lot I'm less concerned about this and am willing to concede this point if I ha= ve to=2E However as ksh93 is IMO the better ksh and it's not a clone, it's the real= ksh, and the license is compatible, why would we settle on less than the = real thing? --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:27:12 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C29314BF537 for ; 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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:27:02 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NNSrBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=sV6H8bnRear5oC8ljJMA:9 a=tizv6hHn2T0SI5ax:21 a=g1RWa3qjBUJJZ3yZ:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A38F5E85; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:27:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:26:38 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <9036c9e8-ba86-6e62-e2db-4dea40ef8406@FreeBSD.org> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <9036c9e8-ba86-6e62-e2db-4dea40ef8406@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: John Baldwin , Baptiste Daroussin , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <75D9D651-86B1-4246-8A10-959BE3A45975@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNChNyy6IKtxvH32JBrlGHFgaVz+RGOjce3b55yARktx3Q0TtI51kc1SQVR0KADw+Rv6VyAlhRPahqeoyGQCMvTPdSW90jrYPhSeoVuCba9G8NUJeRen uznzBZi+ROnHwT4UTJ9Wvov1TlXHjTnD+p8qtBhjRoISCJqRDm++BYgyzlDjL9xJVgjTK2MQrMvJWk0JFdn/xbdxqEi5/h4dW1R9p8YlnNFVkxVqqrrneAjD Pa6WNJMZYykOx0l4/yV7qSTLNkZi7+/gzlyGjpsu3Zw= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4D20F6BBD9 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:27:12 -0000 On January 25, 2019 11:14:23 AM PST, John Baldwin wrote= : >On 1/25/19 11:07 AM, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >>> As to replacing root's shell, replacing tcsh is a large POLA >violation=2E >>=20 >> It will not replace in existing installation just make it the default >in new installation I can t see how this is a POLA violation if it is >in new setup on new major version (upgrades won t be affacted) > >I'm mostly struggling to find a reason to care what is in root's >/etc/passwd >line, but aside from that, for people who use mergemaster or etcupdate, >it >will try to merge the new shell during an upgrade of an existing >system=2E >Granted, if you have an actual root password set the line will be a >conflict, but it's not strictly true to say that existing installs >wouldn't >be affected=2E >=20 >>> Maybe give users the option at install time instead=2E=20 >>=20 >> Doable, unsure it is worth it but yes we can do that if that is asked >a lot > >I think we should avoid the tendency to add new questions to the >install if=20 >we can avoid it=2E I often see this mentioned for potential POLA-type >changes >and I think there are two issues: 1) it doesn't address upgrades, and >2) we >should keep a streamlined install process as much as possible IMO=2E If >we >start piling up a bunch of extra questions during the install it will >just >make users' eyes glaze over=2E I'm willing to concede what shell root uses by default part of this thread= =2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:35:28 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7500014BF820 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:35:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDB936C13A for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:35:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0PJZPWe075550 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:35:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x0PJZPes075549 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:35:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:35:25 +0100 From: Robert Clausecker To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125193525.GA74966@fuz.su> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:35:28 -0000 On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 09:12:58AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn > shell. EPL is compatible with the BSD license. Personally, I've been > toying with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now. Note that ksh93 comes with a builtin user land from AT&T which should behave quite a bit differently from the FreeBSD userland. So unless we want to maintain two slightly different userlands (one of which needs to be maintained in conflict with upstream), that has to be torn out, which kills one of the performance advantages of ksh93. Yours, Robert Clausecker -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:36:47 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F6E14BF8A1 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6996C304 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:36:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id CF3EF14BF8A0; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:36:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB7214BF89F for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:36:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E84916C300; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:36:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x0PJaeD1089797; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:36:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x0PJaepi089796; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:36:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> To: Baptiste Daroussin Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:36:40 -0800 (PST) CC: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E84916C300 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.978,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:36:47 -0000 > Hi everyone, > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > Why: > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > expectation are bigger It is more than twice the size of our current /bin/sh, and giving up 200k on the nano/tiny/wifi BSD is hard to justify. 400k is near the size of tcsh. Having expressed that concern, when pkg base is a reality and we can pkg choose at install time if we get the current tiny /bin/sh or your mksh proposal, or the whole basket which is bash I would support adding more shells to the base system. > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most people > are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD and most > linuxes Getting close to usually does not satisfy those that do actually use bash, zsh, ksh, etc. Just as vi falls short for vim users. > 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the major > complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers and > also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not yet > installed/configured a bourne compatible shell I do not ever recall hearing a complaint about csh as a default root shell, and, um I thought we encouraged new users to create an account and use su/sudo type things so that they are not running around in a root shell very much anyway. I think the more norm complaint is from long time Linux users making the transition to a BSD finding anything different difficult to handle, much as I curse every few minutes when I am working in a shell on a Linux box and find yet another thing I have to apt get to even be close to a BSD system. > > What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > 1/ the removal of tcsh from base I would like to bring the invoked /bin/csh settings just a bit closer to ancient /bin/csh, but I have learned to deal with the subtle non conformance. > 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > > What do you think? I think we need pkg base so we can have all those shells mentioned in other replies, so long as some one steps forward willing to maintain them and all the scripts that need to run on them without alteration. > Best regards, > Bapt -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:53:18 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582F914C05EA for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C4C56D013 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n7XNgSOWgMRX3n7XPgGwhP; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:53:16 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TL87tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=RbMusnJVN3No25eDwM4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C5F8EC7; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x0PJrCQc004495; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:53:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x0PJrCpQ004492; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:53:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901251953.x0PJrCpQ004492@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Robert Clausecker cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Clausecker of "Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:35:25 +0100." <20190125193525.GA74966@fuz.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:53:12 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGmZCWpesZbiBwPliGXG8hIua2t6DlgEYgY90TmzyxqemA0Y+CWVJ6QLUAdLV0Bsv34oxy48HHUf5PGFq7zbhobjE3O+2WbSbv5j4A4o6cee4PGWGNV/ vMsRz75OhS+BpOgvhcmtZp/iZDuS3cCJBWu5WSgVnZekeyYnn2wOXvGPhQchUqeMzU+lpva+wYzm4YeJKtXRnuQX0T1pyUOXXdQ= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2C4C56D013 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.59 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.89)[ip: (-5.02), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.43), asn: 6327(-1.88), country: CA(-0.09)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:18 -0000 In message <20190125193525.GA74966@fuz.su>, Robert Clausecker writes: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 09:12:58AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn > > shell. EPL is compatible with the BSD license. Personally, I've been > > toying with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now. > > Note that ksh93 comes with a builtin user land from AT&T which should > behave quite a bit differently from the FreeBSD userland. So unless we > want to maintain two slightly different userlands (one of which needs to > be maintained in conflict with upstream), that has to be torn out, which > kills one of the performance advantages of ksh93. Oh really? Explain please. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 19:53:23 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2C014C0601 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611976D01A for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2484114C0600; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:22 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DC814C05FF for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail104.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail104.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.246]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F03D6D016; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (c110-21-101-228.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [110.21.101.228]) by mail104.syd.optusnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D21F5433ED6; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 06:53:11 +1100 (AEDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 06:53:11 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: Gleb Popov cc: Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Optus-CM-Score: 0 X-Optus-CM-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=P6RKvmIu c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:117 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=U4uZqydk3UVQBU8oQAkA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7F03D6D016 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.974,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:53:23 -0000 On Fri, 25 Jan 2019, Gleb Popov wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:58 PM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > >> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm >> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >> >> Why: >> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the >> expectation are bigger >> 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most >> people >> are used to with bash You should warm up with a more modest task, such as replacing vi by emacs as the default editor. > Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? If not, this proposal looks > like another "let's do like Linux" thing. I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some port put it. toor still uses csh, but I never use toor. I still use /bin/sh and of course /bin/ed for the single user shell and editing there, except on one system which is misconfigured with /usr on the root partition so that vi is accidentally available for editing. If need, I exec bin/bash from /bin/sh or mount /usr, but my /usr is usually on nfs and most boot-time editing is to fix network configuratation so that nfs is available. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 20:15:21 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9310314C1A0E for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE30C704EE for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0PKFJiE077904 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:15:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x0PKFJpN077903; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:15:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:15:19 +0100 From: Robert Clausecker To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125201519.GA77486@fuz.su> References: <20190125193525.GA74966@fuz.su> <201901251953.x0PJrCpQ004492@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201901251953.x0PJrCpQ004492@slippy.cwsent.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:21 -0000 On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:53:12AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > In message <20190125193525.GA74966@fuz.su>, Robert Clausecker writes: > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 09:12:58AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn > > > shell. EPL is compatible with the BSD license. Personally, I've been > > > toying with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now. > > > > Note that ksh93 comes with a builtin user land from AT&T which should > > behave quite a bit differently from the FreeBSD userland. So unless we > > want to maintain two slightly different userlands (one of which needs to > > be maintained in conflict with upstream), that has to be torn out, which > > kills one of the performance advantages of ksh93. > > Oh really? Explain please. Ksh93 is part of the AT&T ast distribution. This distribution contains a large amount of standard programs and ksh93 would use them over the system's own programs if $PATH was set up correctly (ksh93 recognised a dummy path for "my own user land"). It does seem like they tore these out in the latter releases, so this concern is probably no longer important. Yours, Robert CLausecker -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 20:15:59 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A6614C1AB4 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C8370661 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id CCC9814C1AB3; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:55 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D8B14C1AB2 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 521A1705FD; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.0.0.54] (ip-414b102e.ct.fixed.ntplx.com [65.75.16.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x0PKFj3G008357 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:15:45 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:15:46 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16D40) In-Reply-To: <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:15:45 -0500 Cc: Gleb Popov , arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> To: Bruce Evans X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 521A1705FD X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.96 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:15:59 -0000 > On Jan 25, 2019, at 2:53 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: >=20 > I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The > currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old > (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some > port put it. Just picking a recent post to reply to... I've used bash on FreeBSD as the default shell for many years, ever since it= became a port. But I don't change root's shell, because I don't want it po= inting off to /usr/local. If there were a base bash-like shell, I'd use it s= o long as it had tab completion and up/down arrow for history recall. -- DE= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 20:21:04 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A966A14C1DA5 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:21:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213F470C52 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:21:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id D8FAF14C1D9B; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:21:03 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFF614C1D9A for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:21:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D1C670C38; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:21:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n7yEgYJSe82Ycn7yGgbxZ1; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:21:00 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NNSrBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=JzwRw_2MAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=7_TbikLA5MIYgdiOwJAA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=_bBvcJC8wCc67rcU61zu:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B060E103F; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x0PKKvDP049436; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x0PKKv3N049433; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901252020.x0PKKv3N049433@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Bruce Evans cc: Gleb Popov , arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Evans of "Sat, 26 Jan 2019 06:53:11 +1100." <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:20:57 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfF5Ox7S4x44hizJ2TadEiQWb53mtVL99dJo5QvkPNZc6ND8w6jVamj/X+VbUDf9xJRXf/Wavb+C0UCyCtrE2y9LS7UNW3XxSDjmU5wsxfKYIA81hpXpt vUlYeJ/iCLRoei70WIvkeUoKSSFPKahKF7PPNnnVaLO6roNa3tNk4YIR6TZD9Xn1QLevwGAJtbUsyjXwJwVRiGMFmp36NIHroZBHSqmHoLbOZcETOcoqejoK Lt/82n8ztGsz++XntI+1PQaMAjMGdTOHfXzGJcrHSNg= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0D1C670C38 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.892,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[optusnet.com.au]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.77)[ip: (-4.44), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.43), asn: 6327(-1.88), country: CA(-0.09)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:21:05 -0000 In message <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org>, Bruce Evans writes: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2019, Gleb Popov wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:58 PM Baptiste Daroussin wrote > : > > > >> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > >> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > >> > >> Why: > >> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > >> expectation are bigger > >> 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most > >> people > >> are used to with bash > > You should warm up with a more modest task, such as replacing vi by emacs > as the default editor. > > > Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? If not, this proposal looks > > like another "let's do like Linux" thing. > > I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The > currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old > (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some > port put it. That's a little risky unless it's static, which Bruce, I know you do. > > toor still uses csh, but I never use toor. > > I still use /bin/sh and of course /bin/ed for the single user shell and > editing there, except on one system which is misconfigured with /usr > on the root partition so that vi is accidentally available for editing. > If need, I exec bin/bash from /bin/sh or mount /usr, but my /usr is > usually on nfs and most boot-time editing is to fix network > configuratation so that nfs is available. This is my workaround. It avoids a lot of single-user grief. We used a form of it on Solaris many moons ago. case $(tty) in /dev/console|/dev/ttyv?|/dev/ttyd?) echo Using default shell of $SHELL ;; *) if [ -x /usr/local/bin/bash ]; then echo starting bash shell OSHELL=$SHELL SHELL=/usr/local/bin/bash export SHELL $SHELL < /dev/null && exec $SHELL SHELL=$OSHELL unset OSHELL echo Unable to execute /usr/local/bin/bash or not found, using default shell of $SHELL fi ;; esac -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 20:24:17 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8FB14C20A2 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:24:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED211710F0 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:24:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n81NgSfbmMRX3n81OgH410; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:24:15 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TL87tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=thwmQEDKAAAA:20 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=M9m6JUOuUodv6D0VDZkA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F3AF1051; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x0PKOCVS052431; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x0PKOCTt052427; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901252024.x0PKOCTt052427@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Robert Clausecker cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Clausecker of "Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:15:19 +0100." <20190125201519.GA77486@fuz.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:24:12 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfN4wMonQRy/h5Xy13biDyUY+3IeW8bbTjoxCXsho4gwtFf90H0zQIiraS9rNfOshs/VG6kJKBOQJmY6G9lKBvcTAzsIgqD7K9cHDsPVN7wcLtrZSuIGu 2tpxhQoNJ8j6VWlbuWU6fDXy0OMC0QGqCVzeMl7rj8+g4El2uXjyO1sfSwrxLf+JaenPC8xl73Fw8pGopf1FRv2vCFQNZ4EALdo= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: ED211710F0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.980,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.86)[ip: (-4.93), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.42), asn: 6327(-1.87), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:24:17 -0000 In message <20190125201519.GA77486@fuz.su>, Robert Clausecker writes: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:53:12AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > In message <20190125193525.GA74966@fuz.su>, Robert Clausecker writes: > > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 09:12:58AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn > > > > shell. EPL is compatible with the BSD license. Personally, I've been > > > > toying with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now. > > > > > > Note that ksh93 comes with a builtin user land from AT&T which should > > > behave quite a bit differently from the FreeBSD userland. So unless we > > > want to maintain two slightly different userlands (one of which needs to > > > be maintained in conflict with upstream), that has to be torn out, which > > > kills one of the performance advantages of ksh93. > > > > Oh really? Explain please. > > Ksh93 is part of the AT&T ast distribution. This distribution contains > a large amount of standard programs and ksh93 would use them over the > system's own programs if $PATH was set up correctly (ksh93 recognised a > dummy path for "my own user land"). It does seem like they tore these > out in the latter releases, so this concern is probably no longer > important. slippy$ pkg info -l ksh93-devel ksh93-devel-2019.01.21: /usr/local/bin/ksh93 /usr/local/bin/shcomp93 /usr/local/man/man1/ksh93.1.gz /usr/local/share/licenses/ksh93-devel-2019.01.21/EPL /usr/local/share/licenses/ksh93-devel-2019.01.21/LICENSE /usr/local/share/licenses/ksh93-devel-2019.01.21/catalog.mk slippy$ The official ksh93 is developed here: https://github.com/att/ast. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 20:48:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080AD14C277E for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:48:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D06C71DD3 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:48:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 2062214C277C; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:48:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB9914C2779 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:48:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from mail106.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail106.syd.optusnet.com.au [211.29.132.42]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401E371DD1; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:48:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from brde@optusnet.com.au) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (c110-21-101-228.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [110.21.101.228]) by mail106.syd.optusnet.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38393D5B3B; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 07:48:20 +1100 (AEDT) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 07:48:19 +1100 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Message-ID: <20190126065429.F872@besplex.bde.org> References: <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Optus-CM-Score: 0 X-Optus-CM-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=FNpr/6gs c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:117 a=PalzARQSbocsUSjMRkwAPg==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=B6_9Qa4dz8oX0Z2X-sQA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 401E371DD1 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.90 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.90)[-0.896,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 20:48:32 -0000 On Fri, 25 Jan 2019, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm >> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >> >> Why: >> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the >> expectation are bigger > It is more than twice the size of our current /bin/sh, and giving up > 200k on the nano/tiny/wifi BSD is hard to justify. 400k is near the > size of tcsh. That is only the dynamically linked size. It is much larger and slower than indicated by that. Statically linked /bin/sh is now about 15 times larger than in FreeBSD-1 (~1300K text instead of ~90K). Dynamical linkage costs more in runtime than the memory size expansion. E.g., /bin/echo in a shell loop is about 60% slower in -current than it was in FreeBSD-~5.2 using a CPU that is about twice as fast in -current and 8 CPUs instead of 1 (this should be good for CPU affinity of the shell process). Dynamic linkage alone is enough to give this slowdown. Static linkages seems to give a relatively smaller advantage in -current Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 21:03:48 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBB814C327D; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 509B172C57; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 02FCEAD85; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:03:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 03534B48B0; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:03:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:03:46 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Cy Schubert Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125210346.xzvrvuvr4rj3guov@ivaldir.net> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <66278F75-5162-46A5-BF2A-DC4C3F0F35BD@cschubert.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="l7d7rf235ll3lmav" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <66278F75-5162-46A5-BF2A-DC4C3F0F35BD@cschubert.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 509B172C57 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.968,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:03:48 -0000 --l7d7rf235ll3lmav Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:24:26AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > First time I've tried replying inline on this newer phone. Bear with me a= s this reply may not look like I intend it to. >=20 > On January 25, 2019 11:07:55 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > > > > >Le 25 janvier 2019 18:12:58 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert > > a =E9crit : > >>On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin > >> wrote: > >>>Hi everyone, > >>> > >>>I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > >>>And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > >>> > >>>Why: > >>>1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting > >>>the > >>>expectation are bigger > >>>2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what > >>most > >>>people > >>>are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD > >>and > >>>most > >>>linuxes > >>>3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the > >>>major > >>>complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new > >>comers > >>>and > >>>also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not > >>>yet > >>>installed/configured a bourne compatible shell > >>> > >>>What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > >>>1/ the removal of tcsh from base > >>>2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > >>> > >>>What do you think? > >>>Best regards, > >>>Bapt > >> > >>Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn > >shell. > >>EPL is compatible with the BSD license. Personally, I've been toying > >>with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now. > >> > > > >The reason I chose mksh is because it is heavily maintained and from > >the testing I have done it was the "nicer" interface > > >=20 > Ksh93 is also heavily maintained. Look at their github activity. My ksh9= 3-devel port has been tracking updates (I consider important). I gave a chance to ksh93-devel, my first impression are the following, as an interactive shell, it looks nicer than I remembered (still prefer mksh thou= gh) the completion looks "unexpected" but interesting I bet that can probably be tuned (having a numbered list with fullpath of application I can do complet= ion on is not what I did expect) In emacs mode, the history search does not look great, (not it does not look great as well in mksh, but less worse :)) In vi mode both seem to behave the same Manpages in both sides looks pretty complete mksh only depends on libc while ksh93 depends on libc, libexecinfo and libm on amd64: ksh93 is 1.2M mksh is 331k Overall I still think mksh is a better choice there Best regards, Bapt --l7d7rf235ll3lmav Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAlxLebAACgkQY4mL3PG3 Plq34A/9G3+rT3fDD9FX3yu1RlAhJcGhdEF8rMzFoZiGvZ8AoeVLZHlkOwLp342c BSe+X9qEYRQ/hjEWLnOmyAaJDRL7re4xqLhd8y2jC4TaWyzpVlh5RcXuR55YneMD g2dI/MgO9vqptMV7JR0+SYBCW+1CQko3ZPfa+GGJBQEe+hHsCI9gT9EvEbCKeQrr S4VsRmX4yEeVcAqbQl27O7pFC3FSGQi/Q3Cb7x541uJl9KXLQT4v5UsoeoAGDwyk 9a2+yeS4FYc3YMZNP0St3PI/mr1GCWioIUSbOjtN1sUZKJijs2EL5P/pgw1rI3ci 7JiURiSuNUI6zPdMEKhEj+1VCUKRQ5KE4p0bEHxNj/wrXNasv65bZPaYcrMc84fX mTxTAlz+PJc0xxCtkmKk8MPAqHgrY6q5QYycsjl6vGi+tt70dDuWVaapPaESDKc9 BCwmC365ggDJ64EPAAWeowmM59Vs5JdI861PAqyf1AyETFisXuy0rXSa6hUNk8mj xlx7vCy/PEGhasZuZAy2y3qVYm4L3JyloReOy0Gs2oKLizx5BAedO4MqcrPFgPF3 1VyeHnfJCAwaF2UDvCKi3EHZdoFWgcwmaCN1UIaXDJmZNHw1h04YAKfz8419Am+9 TOwh+T0Srqj39voYBrfrua1X4o+hvyp9auhg2pUIiRog+pKQhsI= =/miv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --l7d7rf235ll3lmav-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 21:08:35 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8517414C333F for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C58D72D8D for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id CB34714C333E; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:34 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9AA314C333D for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E79172D8C; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24745AD86; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 61E38B48B5; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:08:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:08:33 +0100 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125210833.ltnvsxbnlkc6njaw@ivaldir.net> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="adpwicfakkugy5gt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 5E79172D8C X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.974,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:08:35 -0000 --adpwicfakkugy5gt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:36:40AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > Hi everyone, > >=20 > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > >=20 > > Why: > > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting t= he > > expectation are bigger > It is more than twice the size of our current /bin/sh, and giving up > 200k on the nano/tiny/wifi BSD is hard to justify. 400k is near the > size of tcsh. >=20 To be fair here: mksh is 331k on my amd64 machine /bin/sh is 165k mksh only depends on libc /bin/sh depends on libc + libedit which adds an additional 231k to the batt= le. If now we are comparing to the actual root shell: csh is 419k on the same machine and it depends on libncursesw and libcrypt Best regards, Bapt --adpwicfakkugy5gt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEgOTj3suS2urGXVU3Y4mL3PG3PloFAlxLetEACgkQY4mL3PG3 Plor4hAAhZIPpHG6/DfdaUR1yReBOOQq0hLBPlfbICu0UYoNDOUgrp+/TMzYGH7H B6cqnbIRltrGUIhW/gwYrtBnbaO/cTWauY6wIeTo0gbVe3R8NEr7zvsF1CIJPgrU 1yltYciHO0v6kIFBNX28iNH0PdJK5w3Itak7hW0Nz/7IYevAAzJnxHM0oaDiDPC+ DaVZapKwXOixlGrV9kzVtMVpGJGDXHUhtRQY9BLVzm+abk8a2Ww2A8d+4DwwFBk0 pjXw2lgUweq0Lm5EMTcoN8OJZqnnur4T6dxog+pBNcj2cA/NDo3KCCwL/XQxxC58 WG/85nsZA7kVFkHzBgZUCQasclIBldoxovgmEYwqcPdP8U3/6j2zlq5r7bHoa6oh ptH2b8NXZepuTAGqE/KByqnJo8zf3AvTwdRKOgnayudYaa1SMM216oNBG05LTexb /RwxNnqo3PAa8z8jn/Y1+29arvkdv874koXxZ9jPSWiiAudeGubxtmAPhd2u7tkS mVdTicfImUZJJ98bVTMA3BhafKk5I0yl3rKlPLzbeLvrxo6QLXWzkgQIvnD2kyej grjXC0zuKTEQcqUGzIfHsPqHcU1zrSbsvyF7IUy9MrgZLFIxQDNsED7elDOYs6QU NmLXD+Re5HnIE6qvalQgw9qQYI5adxXOQRX5Rm5iMH8W6hmccao= =EXRQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --adpwicfakkugy5gt-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 21:29:35 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148EF14C3A12 for ; 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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 14:29:30 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=XKpOtjpE c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=mi56gJdQAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=wglQ65jDwzm1rPw8EfoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=m6W23KLcDyq3lIHOBnQi:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B461A1107; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:30:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x0PLTQV6008380; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:29:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x0PLTQAn008365; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:29:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201901252129.x0PLTQAn008365@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Baptiste Daroussin cc: Cy Schubert , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: Message from Baptiste Daroussin of "Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:03:46 +0100." <20190125210346.xzvrvuvr4rj3guov@ivaldir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.80)[ip: (-4.61), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.41), asn: 6327(-1.87), country: CA(-0.09)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:29:35 -0000 In message <20190125210346.xzvrvuvr4rj3guov@ivaldir.net>, Baptiste Daroussin wr ites: > > > --l7d7rf235ll3lmav > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:24:26AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > > First time I've tried replying inline on this newer phone. Bear with me a= > s this reply may not look like I intend it to. > >=20 > > On January 25, 2019 11:07:55 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin > wrote: > > > > > > > > >Le 25 janvier 2019 18:12:58 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert > > > a =E9crit : > > >>On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin > > >> wrote: > > >>>Hi everyone, > > >>> > > >>>I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > > >>>And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > >>> > > >>>Why: > > >>>1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting > > >>>the > > >>>expectation are bigger > > >>>2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what > > >>most > > >>>people > > >>>are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD > > >>and > > >>>most > > >>>linuxes > > >>>3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the > > >>>major > > >>>complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new > > >>comers > > >>>and > > >>>also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not > > >>>yet > > >>>installed/configured a bourne compatible shell > > >>> > > >>>What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > > >>>1/ the removal of tcsh from base > > >>>2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > > >>> > > >>>What do you think? > > >>>Best regards, > > >>>Bapt > > >> > > >>Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn > > >shell. > > >>EPL is compatible with the BSD license. Personally, I've been toying > > >>with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now. > > >> > > > > > >The reason I chose mksh is because it is heavily maintained and from > > >the testing I have done it was the "nicer" interface > > > > >=20 > > Ksh93 is also heavily maintained. Look at their github activity. My ksh9= > 3-devel port has been tracking updates (I consider important). > > I gave a chance to ksh93-devel, my first impression are the following, as an > interactive shell, it looks nicer than I remembered (still prefer mksh thou= > gh) Interactively ksh93's command completion listing looks unconventional but it functions the same. However programmatically it's the standard. Large commercial vendors, like Oracle, still require ksh for its array handling among other things. > the completion looks "unexpected" but interesting I bet that can probably be > tuned (having a numbered list with fullpath of application I can do complet= > ion > on is not what I did expect) Completion is different. > > In emacs mode, the history search does not look great, (not it does not look > great as well in mksh, but less worse :)) > > In vi mode both seem to behave the same > > Manpages in both sides looks pretty complete > > mksh only depends on libc while ksh93 depends on libc, libexecinfo and libm > > on amd64: > ksh93 is 1.2M > mksh is 331k It has that advantage. For embedded this is an advantage. However if embedded is using ksh as a scripting language mksh and pdksh aren't 100% compatible. Just so we know, It's interactive only and people would be well advised to install the port if doing any serious shell scripting. I think the size difference doesn't make up for the differences in scripting capability. (Yes, you can do arrays in bash but the syntax is different.) It really depends on what we want here. A full featured shell that can be used for ksh93 scripts or strictly as an interactive shell with incomplete support of the ksh88 standard. > > Overall I still think mksh is a better choice there Though I still disagree, a knob to disable it, WITHOUT_MKSH, would be a must as those who symlink to /usr/bin/ksh or /bin/ksh would be affected. And, -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. altering the order of PATH may put some between a rock and a hard place. A knob would be an absolute must. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 21:39:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CEB314C3F4D; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:39:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1591874807; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:39:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (etoilebsd.net [178.32.217.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B8408B0CF; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:39:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [192.168.0.17] (207.141.6.93.rev.sfr.net [93.6.141.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ivaldir.etoilebsd.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52289B48D9; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:39:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:39:47 +0100 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <201901252129.x0PLTQAn008365@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201901252129.x0PLTQAn008365@slippy.cwsent.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Cy Schubert CC: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org,arch@freebsd.org From: Baptiste Daroussin Message-ID: <42367007-C290-42C9-9F44-2A8F48665E7C@FreeBSD.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 1591874807 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:39:51 -0000 Le 25 janvier 2019 22:29:26 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert a =C3=A9crit : >In message <20190125210346=2Exzvrvuvr4rj3guov@ivaldir=2Enet>, Baptiste=20 >Daroussin wr >ites: >>=20 >> >> --l7d7rf235ll3lmav >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 >> Content-Disposition: inline >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:24:26AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: >> > First time I've tried replying inline on this newer phone=2E Bear >with me a=3D >> s this reply may not look like I intend it to=2E >> >=3D20 >> > On January 25, 2019 11:07:55 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > >Le 25 janvier 2019 18:12:58 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert >> > > a =3DE9crit : >> > >>On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin >> > >> wrote: >> > >>>Hi everyone, >> > >>> >> > >>>I would like to import mksh in base, >https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh=2Ehtm >> > >>>And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >> > >>> >> > >>>Why: >> > >>>1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells >fitting >> > >>>the >> > >>>expectation are bigger >> > >>>2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to >what >> > >>most >> > >>>people >> > >>>are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other >BSD >> > >>and >> > >>>most >> > >>>linuxes >> > >>>3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of >the >> > >>>major >> > >>>complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new >> > >>comers >> > >>>and >> > >>>also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and >have not >> > >>>yet >> > >>>installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >> > >>> >> > >>>What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >> > >>>1/ the removal of tcsh from base >> > >>>2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of >csh >> > >>> >> > >>>What do you think? >> > >>>Best regards, >> > >>>Bapt >> > >> >> > >>Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn >> > >shell=2E >> > >>EPL is compatible with the BSD license=2E Personally, I've been >toying >> > >>with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now=2E >> > >> >> > > >> > >The reason I chose mksh is because it is heavily maintained and >from >> > >the testing I have done it was the "nicer" interface >> > > >> >=3D20 >> > Ksh93 is also heavily maintained=2E Look at their github activity=2E >My ksh9=3D >> 3-devel port has been tracking updates (I consider important)=2E >> >> I gave a chance to ksh93-devel, my first impression are the >following, as an >> interactive shell, it looks nicer than I remembered (still prefer >mksh thou=3D >> gh) > >Interactively ksh93's command completion listing looks unconventional=20 >but it functions the same=2E > >However programmatically it's the standard=2E Large commercial vendors,= =20 >like Oracle, still require ksh for its array handling among other=20 >things=2E > >> the completion looks "unexpected" but interesting I bet that can >probably be >> tuned (having a numbered list with fullpath of application I can do >complet=3D >> ion >> on is not what I did expect) > >Completion is different=2E > >> >> In emacs mode, the history search does not look great, (not it does >not look >> great as well in mksh, but less worse :)) >> >> In vi mode both seem to behave the same >> >> Manpages in both sides looks pretty complete >> >> mksh only depends on libc while ksh93 depends on libc, libexecinfo >and libm >> >> on amd64: >> ksh93 is 1=2E2M >> mksh is 331k > >It has that advantage=2E For embedded this is an advantage=2E However if= =20 >embedded is using ksh as a scripting language mksh and pdksh aren't=20 >100% compatible=2E Just so we know, It's interactive only and people=20 >would be well advised to install the port if doing any serious shell=20 >scripting=2E > >I think the size difference doesn't make up for the differences in=20 >scripting capability=2E (Yes, you can do arrays in bash but the syntax is > >different=2E) It really depends on what we want here=2E A full featured= =20 >shell that can be used for ksh93 scripts or strictly as an interactive=20 >shell with incomplete support of the ksh88 standard=2E > >> >> Overall I still think mksh is a better choice there > >Though I still disagree, a knob to disable it, WITHOUT_MKSH, would be a > >must as those who symlink to /usr/bin/ksh or /bin/ksh would be=20 >affected=2E And, The goal of the import is not about providing a new scripting shell but an= interactive which closer to csh to what seems basic default expectation of= most (which still needs to be validated as such) I didn t intent to add it as /bin/ksh but as /bin/mksh Best regards Bapt From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 22:22:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D082714C524C; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:22:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40FE975FE3; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:22:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id n9riglC8jnBo4n9rjg0s3r; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:22:24 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J8fUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=3JhidrIBZZsA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=mi56gJdQAAAA:8 a=kMf0utG4AAAA:8 a=DWcrCl8ovvt4EDlSRm8A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=of2mfszF-hMA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=m6W23KLcDyq3lIHOBnQi:22 a=TTWE1O2ssfbasxdXZsrT:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 64D9F1195; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 14:22:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 14:21:58 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <42367007-C290-42C9-9F44-2A8F48665E7C@FreeBSD.org> References: <201901252129.x0PLTQAn008365@slippy.cwsent.com> <42367007-C290-42C9-9F44-2A8F48665E7C@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Baptiste Daroussin CC: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org,arch@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <5D1014CC-5CFB-435C-890D-33F9EB0B5245@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHi2JrYyGwtlQPQZvEtqTKd8eCCaK/YhzZUgJrsUp54+PR5S9E+ujIO9B1Q+9IgxpQRWpoEcV1RGcun3jZHZFhiY+gMXtMidryazlOptoBuwA6rjV4q2 ICgcavTFmBJ3uui1ZV5e6m1c2Jlxy5fjdIEqapJgii+A/QcUhjL8EJYV2CGB0tu9TeAe2gC/gvaROQHNrjxEdxCPwQtgukC6aosLyuOIriJPY0me0Yj0B4hn ZCOkCs4GEWtXMH6mQr0/vw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 40FE975FE3 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.968,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:22:32 -0000 On January 25, 2019 1:39:47 PM PST, Baptiste Daroussin = wrote: > > >Le 25 janvier 2019 22:29:26 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert > a =C3=A9crit : >>In message <20190125210346=2Exzvrvuvr4rj3guov@ivaldir=2Enet>, Baptiste= =20 >>Daroussin wr >>ites: >>>=20 >>> >>> --l7d7rf235ll3lmav >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 >>> Content-Disposition: inline >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:24:26AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: >>> > First time I've tried replying inline on this newer phone=2E Bear >>with me a=3D >>> s this reply may not look like I intend it to=2E >>> >=3D20 >>> > On January 25, 2019 11:07:55 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin >>>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Le 25 janvier 2019 18:12:58 GMT+01:00, Cy Schubert >>> > > a =3DE9crit : >>> > >>On January 25, 2019 8:57:51 AM PST, Baptiste Daroussin >>> > >> wrote: >>> > >>>Hi everyone, >>> > >>> >>> > >>>I would like to import mksh in base, >>https://www=2Emirbsd=2Eorg/mksh=2Ehtm >>> > >>>And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >>> > >>> >>> > >>>Why: >>> > >>>1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells >>fitting >>> > >>>the >>> > >>>expectation are bigger >>> > >>>2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to >>what >>> > >>most >>> > >>>people >>> > >>>are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other >>BSD >>> > >>and >>> > >>>most >>> > >>>linuxes >>> > >>>3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of >>the >>> > >>>major >>> > >>>complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from >new >>> > >>comers >>> > >>>and >>> > >>>also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and >>have not >>> > >>>yet >>> > >>>installed/configured a bourne compatible shell >>> > >>> >>> > >>>What this proposal is _NOT_ about: >>> > >>>1/ the removal of tcsh from base >>> > >>>2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of >>csh >>> > >>> >>> > >>>What do you think? >>> > >>>Best regards, >>> > >>>Bapt >>> > >> >>> > >>Why not ksh93 instead? It is the original and authoritative Korn >>> > >shell=2E >>> > >>EPL is compatible with the BSD license=2E Personally, I've been >>toying >>> > >>with the idea of importing ksh93 for a while now=2E >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > >The reason I chose mksh is because it is heavily maintained and >>from >>> > >the testing I have done it was the "nicer" interface >>> > > >>> >=3D20 >>> > Ksh93 is also heavily maintained=2E Look at their github activity= =2E >>My ksh9=3D >>> 3-devel port has been tracking updates (I consider important)=2E >>> >>> I gave a chance to ksh93-devel, my first impression are the >>following, as an >>> interactive shell, it looks nicer than I remembered (still prefer >>mksh thou=3D >>> gh) >> >>Interactively ksh93's command completion listing looks unconventional=20 >>but it functions the same=2E >> >>However programmatically it's the standard=2E Large commercial vendors,= =20 >>like Oracle, still require ksh for its array handling among other=20 >>things=2E >> >>> the completion looks "unexpected" but interesting I bet that can >>probably be >>> tuned (having a numbered list with fullpath of application I can do >>complet=3D >>> ion >>> on is not what I did expect) >> >>Completion is different=2E >> >>> >>> In emacs mode, the history search does not look great, (not it does >>not look >>> great as well in mksh, but less worse :)) >>> >>> In vi mode both seem to behave the same >>> >>> Manpages in both sides looks pretty complete >>> >>> mksh only depends on libc while ksh93 depends on libc, libexecinfo >>and libm >>> >>> on amd64: >>> ksh93 is 1=2E2M >>> mksh is 331k >> >>It has that advantage=2E For embedded this is an advantage=2E However if= =20 >>embedded is using ksh as a scripting language mksh and pdksh aren't=20 >>100% compatible=2E Just so we know, It's interactive only and people=20 >>would be well advised to install the port if doing any serious shell=20 >>scripting=2E >> >>I think the size difference doesn't make up for the differences in=20 >>scripting capability=2E (Yes, you can do arrays in bash but the syntax >is >> >>different=2E) It really depends on what we want here=2E A full featured= =20 >>shell that can be used for ksh93 scripts or strictly as an interactive > >>shell with incomplete support of the ksh88 standard=2E >> >>> >>> Overall I still think mksh is a better choice there >> >>Though I still disagree, a knob to disable it, WITHOUT_MKSH, would be >a >> >>must as those who symlink to /usr/bin/ksh or /bin/ksh would be=20 >>affected=2E And, > > >The goal of the import is not about providing a new scripting shell but >an interactive which closer to csh to what seems basic default >expectation of most (which still needs to be validated as such) > >I didn t intent to add it as /bin/ksh but as /bin/mksh > >Best regards >Bapt That's fine=2E Juxtaposed, one of the ports, pdksh, installs itself as ksh=2E A totally s= eparate issue, it should install as pdksh=2E Then either a metaport or a bi= t of logic in /usr/ports/Mk adds the symlink=2E Or, leave it to the user to= create manually=2E I haven't had the time to really look at this except to= acknowledge it's a problem=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 23:46:25 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F240C14C75B1 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620528111C for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 253DA14C75B0; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:46:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139B214C75AF for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:46:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2A7D81117; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:46:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC66428428; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:46:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from illbsd.quip.test (ip-86-49-16-209.net.upcbroadband.cz [86.49.16.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F84828417; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:46:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Daniel Eischen , Bruce Evans Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , Gleb Popov References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:46:13 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/52.0 SeaMonkey/2.49.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: A2A7D81117 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:46:25 -0000 Daniel Eischen wrote on 2019/01/25 21:15: > >> On Jan 25, 2019, at 2:53 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: >> >> I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The >> currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old >> (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some >> port put it. > > Just picking a recent post to reply to... > > I've used bash on FreeBSD as the default shell for many years, ever since it became a port. But I don't change root's shell, because I don't want it pointing off to /usr/local. If there were a base bash-like shell, I'd use it so long as it had tab completion and up/down arrow for history recall. You must be joking. tcsh has tab completion and up / down arrow history recall ... and in my feelings much better than in bash. But it all depends on how you configured it (bash and tcsh can be heavily modified by their rc files). Interactive use of tcsh is one of my favorite features on interactive use of FreeBSD over other environments / OSes. Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Jan 25 23:49:04 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E37A14C76A2 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:49:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DBB81234 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:49:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9CFD414C76A0; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:49:03 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5D614C769F for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:49:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A45281230; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:49:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=Yejt=QB=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F12928428; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:49:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from illbsd.quip.test (ip-86-49-16-209.net.upcbroadband.cz [86.49.16.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 889DD28423; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:49:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Jamie Landeg-Jones , grembo@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org Cc: arch@freebsd.org, bapt@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <69E462A0-B9E9-4D26-898F-A96036227E65@FreeBSD.org> <201901251727.x0PHRniq094803@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> Message-ID: <862c514f-7c19-ce6c-4438-1e765524cee2@quip.cz> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:49:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/52.0 SeaMonkey/2.49.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201901251727.x0PHRniq094803@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0A45281230 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.978,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:49:04 -0000 Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote on 2019/01/25 18:27: > Heavy tcsh user here - strictly for interactive use (I use bourne shell for > shell scripting) > > Still, as long as it continues in base (and I'd be first to volunteer > to maintain that if needed - it already contains a few patches of mine), Yes please, keep tcsh in base. After almost 20 years on FreeBSD with tcsh I don't understand how somebody can user bash as root shell. Kind regards Miroslav Lachman From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 00:22:17 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C7414A6A00 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:22:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA629828AC for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:22:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 7D88114A69FF; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:22:16 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583F814A69FE for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:22:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C021B828A5; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:22:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id z5so12060246wrt.11; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:22:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :references:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=yvqs4R3x2V1K6DpzQEPXhRCx9os2fj5/j4OQzLrj1xc=; b=Tnffm+g3gOObBrNJr7bg/308T9+CUiN7cwI/8fhN3tQ88YQW+5tN7uTYFOK0gEjeGt K79s1zOYyRiMEErjiLkRMcHZnDWPJxVVVi7RHgRwbej6NqmtEPO8B6z6LPiM1LHa5clE /3UAwKK3yWhzRIzrhdHhNPMUd1+bTPLlr6fZT79w+1q8rReHwz5nhYXVW+EoiKmPSAfU 2ubo5HbuKB0v/ekpwmjykRqb4V6mpKJNiMwUOtZHfi0AisqqyF8qZD1/AHRl/pWNYJ1V qdIdtAVRM4NTdy2zFj1qwRUAMGhk7h8xqJL+HEYN7WkFKZsKh3xTe8p3UWveuQt0oF+4 j/Lw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=yvqs4R3x2V1K6DpzQEPXhRCx9os2fj5/j4OQzLrj1xc=; b=dkldcOJ6A/2TXnrxn1z6sYE86xQu3y/CdCjtKy+9IaprKPNPbzOJspBHcIVRywYD1Q jN/u5CHAIUrKbFhVHDlK26GKPgoct5gSAoiDZO+jOIX+bPEJF6lpF9QDC3dPDn2Qh22l ZByD3yoF8M+J5v2d9X4wsfX6dC0mvA6PQgEisWl/AHFapk8s96bv25UnO/TIu0RWXC4/ 4KJUG93+rc7jCA5qqltOGcUA6CyS2IATSxdP6edVszOAIFGbVUTv+QANnzQ2+BtQY6v3 ihxjgnJturKpXmm7FZWro2kK/FdQ5rn1f0ll7LV+hH0oSN+tf6o3h2u5SKmNkTKH8mh+ S9Ow== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfThFC+WVxnpci4U71S2aOdhWZCPJJOWQScsApewxkbUGVyjGuN 61KQXHFh01u1YrARkdEyG0eYXqZd X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4u8eWCHvmybVNM1GvA0pubIII0x535PymCuuEHojU58k3Dgkua5eleA64nfvDIdbFb3nvQlw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:9361:: with SMTP id 88mr12998864wro.204.1548462133726; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from v2 (cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust461.5-4.cable.virginm.net. [82.1.209.206]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v6sm97807136wrd.88.2019.01.25.16.22.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:22:12 -0800 (PST) Sender: =?UTF-8?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=C5=82a?= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:22:58 +0000 From: Edward Tomasz =?utf-8?Q?Napiera=C5=82a?= To: Daniel Eischen Cc: Bruce Evans , arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , Gleb Popov Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125092258.GA26635@v2> Mail-Followup-To: Daniel Eischen , Bruce Evans , arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , Gleb Popov References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C021B828A5 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.976,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:22:17 -0000 On 0125T1515, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > > On Jan 25, 2019, at 2:53 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > > I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The > > currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old > > (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some > > port put it. > > Just picking a recent post to reply to... > > I've used bash on FreeBSD as the default shell for many years, ever since it became a port. But I don't change root's shell, because I don't want it pointing off to /usr/local. If there were a base bash-like shell, I'd use it so long as it had tab completion and up/down arrow for history recall. FWIW, our current sh(1) already provides that, with the caveat that the completion works fine for paths, but not quite for commands themselves. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 00:30:00 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93914A6B21 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:30:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE14882A3B for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:29:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 6E2CC14A6B14; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:29:59 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC7A14A6B13 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:29:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6E2982A38; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:29:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from etnapierala@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id s12so12102152wrt.4; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:29:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :references:mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=pJyk6m74bcYn3gAS5jY2JiEBPIaFfoyGzPB04haaJyU=; b=NHk6ryd0+ZvVAm7KOuDXZEJik85Sy/oxt9a1T2/tgua1+z+x5bO7BQ2jI0ZdrDQ3j+ PMrHu7r9cq1Y9NUys0+VMChiyyeVyiP+wR0TimbO8V+BMIrJhACpZpA44EmuIJSalsmK 32cfL0ulGMLHTiWHjfXQSVRlqOD7jbLDWwXXBHdy0czy7gk5WNLnfAwNdQq3qVcCwBFP t8RTSjW+7xGONXaAVKa0SEQjj5lF1rCNbUFfI4f0cxbbfRB03YKbJobHuV+Alz+1OIEO hVj76saxNkioftydWbSc5Z19GpV1ERWNcbaxve6W1mHk5d/zF9sckS1v/CnYEgYI4WWu cn5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=pJyk6m74bcYn3gAS5jY2JiEBPIaFfoyGzPB04haaJyU=; b=CDIbppN7Ndz/F6bWsMraUsrQPdZTmzKRg65qP8UDyndgBXoV0/yUnAclb+59WGS63+ HUVbIkw2ACqfND+i5YJTvzW/9e86g8peRlGSKKpYuH7qKE+CkynmrItGcBDBQfEyOGYh dVd8RCzdlDVE629OcKIFvyzU+REdUmIamEHboJrXGLRSmol8UzS0L7mms4dVR1sm1jXi /LxLj6hkrHkMeI5S98DfLTcpI7YVUULVIMTVBio84nFwFM8C40NJ7OktA32yCimqElkV XclzoHZvWST1v9omvG++rODZm35GF2AKUhH/rrhIOOq5EPi3NdPew9/6eGt5ar1MF9/5 wmJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfTLiCfr8OXxQja2aEgXZMnetzGWuRAhBIaAh8yeYIG+adXuoyT qDMa/euyUV2zXk2QwhWmAn80rMFH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7m6z5kTQ5GFmTvmBybDXJX7QceB/WpehayxO7HtnLo1ZV1XcASEqF/Mvnuhv3sfRFOc3sIrA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e8c1:: with SMTP id k1mr12709994wrn.104.1548462597338; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from v2 (cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust461.5-4.cable.virginm.net. [82.1.209.206]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p5sm34845760wmh.16.2019.01.25.16.29.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:29:56 -0800 (PST) Sender: =?UTF-8?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=C5=82a?= Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:30:42 +0000 From: Edward Tomasz =?utf-8?Q?Napiera=C5=82a?= To: Gleb Popov Cc: Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190125093042.GB26635@v2> Mail-Followup-To: Gleb Popov , Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: B6E2982A38 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.979,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:30:00 -0000 On 0125T2110, Gleb Popov wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:58 PM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > > > Why: > > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > > expectation are bigger > > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most > > people > > are used to with bash > > > Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? If not, this proposal looks > like another "let's do like Linux" thing. To be honest I'd expect most FreeBSD users to be used to bash. I know I was, until few years ago I've moved to zsh. Most people nowadays come from Linux background, sometimes also OSX. And that means their primary shell, the one they are used to, is bash, since it's the default on both of those platforms. It's fine to provide something different if it is actually better - but being different just for the sake of it, like defaulting to a shell that can't handle a basic "2>&1", is not. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 00:39:10 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4A814A7053 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:39:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D061382FCB for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 903C814A7051; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:39:09 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B72C14A7050 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:39:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C543D82FC7; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:39:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x0Q0d6S9090976; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:39:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x0Q0d6mE090975; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:39:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201901260039.x0Q0d6mE090975@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: <20190125093042.GB26635@v2> To: "Edward Tomasz Napiera?a" Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:39:06 -0800 (PST) CC: Gleb Popov , arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: C543D82FC7 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.96 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.959,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 00:39:10 -0000 > On 0125T2110, Gleb Popov wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:58 PM Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > > > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > > > > > Why: > > > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > > > expectation are bigger > > > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most > > > people > > > are used to with bash > > > > > > Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? If not, this proposal looks > > like another "let's do like Linux" thing. > > To be honest I'd expect most FreeBSD users to be used to bash. I know > I was, until few years ago I've moved to zsh. You can expect it, and you might be able to collect some data to confirm that, but without that data this is a wag. > Most people nowadays come from Linux background, sometimes also OSX. I suspect, without data though, we get more people coming from Windows to FreeBSD than we do from Linux to FreeBSD. > aND THat means their primary shell, the one they are used to, is bash, > since it's the default on both of those platforms. It's fine to > provide something different if it is actually better - but being different > just for the sake of it, like defaulting to a shell that can't handle > a basic "2>&1", is not. This is none sense. csh syntax for 2>&1 is simple >&. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 02:45:44 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B986A14AC7A2 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:45:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5255D888BF for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:45:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1064B14AC79E; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:45:44 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E3214AC79D for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from mail.netplex.net (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.netplex.net", Issuer "RapidSSL RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99023888BC; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:45:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from deischen@freebsd.org) Received: from [10.0.0.54] (ip-414b102e.ct.fixed.ntplx.com [65.75.16.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netplex.net (8.15.1/8.15.1/NETPLEX) with ESMTPSA id x0Q2jelt061939 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:45:41 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS and Clam AntiVirus (mail.netplex.net) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (mail.netplex.net [204.213.176.9]); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:45:41 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base From: Daniel Eischen X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16D40) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:45:40 -0500 Cc: Bruce Evans , arch@freebsd.org, Baptiste Daroussin , Gleb Popov Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <09787468-8771-4CF7-9A8B-649E6E52B03F@freebsd.org> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 99023888BC X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.992,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 02:45:44 -0000 > On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:46 PM, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >=20 > Daniel Eischen wrote on 2019/01/25 21:15: >>> On Jan 25, 2019, at 2:53 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: >>>=20 >>> I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The >>> currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old >>> (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some >>> port put it. >> Just picking a recent post to reply to... >> I've used bash on FreeBSD as the default shell for many years, ever since= it became a port. But I don't change root's shell, because I don't want it= pointing off to /usr/local. If there were a base bash-like shell, I'd use i= t so long as it had tab completion and up/down arrow for history recall. >=20 > You must be joking. tcsh has tab completion and up / down arrow history re= call ... and in my feelings much better than in bash. But it all depends on h= ow you configured it (bash and tcsh can be heavily modified by their rc file= s). I didn't say that tcsh didn't have it, just that I'd want mksh to have it. A= lso, we mostly standardize on bash for network (ldap, active directory) acco= unts, so it would be nice to have a default shell that was more like bash. -- DE= From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 04:01:58 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C602014AEED2 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 04:01:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491CE8B257 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 04:01:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 0CD5714AEED1; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 04:01:58 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE77D14AEED0 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 04:01:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from smtp9.server.rpi.edu (smtp9.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "canit.localdomain", Issuer "canit.localdomain" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EAB98B252 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 04:01:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.232]) by smtp9.server.rpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id x0Q3ueYI020025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:56:41 -0500 Received: from smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F37B18049; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.2.33] (cpe-72-224-11-59.nycap.res.rr.com [72.224.11.59]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: drosih) by smtp-auth2.server.rpi.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D14911802F; Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:56:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Garance A Drosehn" To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:56:39 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.2r5570) Message-ID: <2366C672-5B23-4AF4-985F-8E741B092FF2@rpi.edu> In-Reply-To: <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <20190126064128.Y872@besplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: outgoing, @@RPTN) X-Spam-Score: 0.01 () [Hold at 10.10] HTML_MESSAGE:0.001, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS:0.01 X-CanIt-Incident-Id: 02XsPUExC X-CanIt-Geo: ip=72.224.11.59; country=US; region=New York; city=Troy; latitude=42.7495; longitude=-73.5951; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.7495,-73.5951&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: outgoing X-Canit-Stats-ID: Bayes signature not available X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.113.2.229 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7EAB98B252 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.971,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 04:01:59 -0000 On 25 Jan 2019, at 14:53, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2019, Gleb Popov wrote: > >> Are there FreeBSD users that are used to bash? If not, this proposal >> looks like another "let's do like Linux" thing. > > I have used /bin/bash as the root shell for more about 20 years. The > currently install version is slightly newer -- only about 15 years old > (bash-1.14.7(1) installed by mv'ing it from /usr/local/bin where some > port put it. I started using unix somewhere around 1990, moving from an IBM mainframe to solaris. I started out using csh because some unix gurus told me it was the cool shell. After a month or two I was trying to write some simple shell script in csh, and couldn't get the damn thing to work. I went back to those unix gurus, and they told me that csh couldn't do the specific thing I was trying to do (whatever that was), and that I should use /bin/sh for that. I thought it was a waste to learn one shell for interactive use and a different one for writing shell scripts. I've used bash or /bin/sh ever since. When I started to use FreeBSD sometime around 1995, I added these lines to ~root/.login on my machines: if ($?prompt) then if ( -x /usr/local/bin/bash ) then # echo "Switching to bash" setenv SHELL /usr/local/bin/bash exec /usr/local/bin/bash -login endif endif That way logins to root will work even if /usr/local is not available, or if something has destroyed the install of bash. So I have a lot of experience with bash and /bin/sh, almost no experience with csh or tcsh, and my familiarity with bash has nothing to do with linux. I'd also expect macOS users would be more used to bash, even though they might not even know what you were talking about if you asked them "do you prefer bash vs csh?". -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = drosih@rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@FreeBSD.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY; USA From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 09:22:46 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A791F14BA8FD for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:22:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD16070B46 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 9013514BA8FC; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D82F14BA8F9 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E50C170B45 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:22:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gljennjohn@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id v13so12667976wrw.5 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:22:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DMs/ryw2pgxlzo/7pHsdrrAJQyWjEqPeIKO1EG4L3gM=; b=PUeWbknnNM4TjmCY364MAAL0gApnYslxthMVU49arPGsvY3heSOv4rMLr7m1zIZqjr fbOtBZOaVv3rG/3AWsVIY9V4cms8ZRQ3BgIi5pij69BTxyAceUN9lKfvACSf6F3r2i4S NpCsFF6g0L1e3etjvTvAUyQgTzHeExh1tCExWhSY9niUQrZeH3gsmEqMdLoxswT3mHsm 5BheFvi5NFaEVTnuB7BSz2PkMuQVsmWxRnKOuFytrn+90luOA0SPQ+gX6upDcSDrYs81 8Yw/MsUOaeBT6+0rtA+t6IV501AUWWaU9Dx154tbUg/PmJ/bpAGQ3nZTbK+fxQyasdXe Lj/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DMs/ryw2pgxlzo/7pHsdrrAJQyWjEqPeIKO1EG4L3gM=; b=a1CFLT4Ir5PwjzBaeNYWBhpy0IkBpAd9yEd+mfaPJYBxZn1oBtYb1wkXTmp1IqTeZY /ct10pAQE1VZjVvH8DSth9e7zat+gm5r3K2FVFbIUqF23lm2lE7HLFBlsDzuTcJAURiA yiMqpRdlfyuEYe40Pir0SdAduA5btRd8G11pZMzKF4xSFO37sFchpmZ6gU3Z6eLsOsjo IWZ34zfT0GsAGyH7L7Nu2W1yaSpMB3aC2cWszfV48aqXZnGb9Lftn3hVpNc3AwWzU0Q4 sGoK2SH03c/DfyyNsBcwLdxC3UvDICqj+9Wo0sj/ZYmViej9SAM6aoDNAcUOeNdAUApB r0HQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeEv32kS5TjbpoS/k46Jc1ccnQom1/Na5/Kxv6VphRrNCdxiwim /4F3Bl/WSZQv+8FfetS2BQw7gl9c X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7LnlGTtlf+5vheTGZEaJv69uFYIaaapwrwRiIOyXFEcQ3aM/UR3qB0B4lkfu5arFoX62uCjQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:81c4:: with SMTP id 62mr13657157wra.266.1548494562615; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ernst.home (pD9E23F45.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [217.226.63.69]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p139sm131915830wmd.31.2019.01.26.01.22.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 01:22:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 10:22:38 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190126102238.3b5e0a80@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: <20190125210833.ltnvsxbnlkc6njaw@ivaldir.net> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <20190125210833.ltnvsxbnlkc6njaw@ivaldir.net> Reply-To: gljennjohn@gmail.com X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.1 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd13.0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E50C170B45 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.978,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:22:46 -0000 On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:08:33 +0100 Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:36:40AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > > > And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > > > > > Why: > > > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the > > > expectation are bigger > > It is more than twice the size of our current /bin/sh, and giving up > > 200k on the nano/tiny/wifi BSD is hard to justify. 400k is near the > > size of tcsh. > > > To be fair here: > mksh is 331k on my amd64 machine > /bin/sh is 165k > > mksh only depends on libc > /bin/sh depends on libc + libedit which adds an additional 231k to the battle. > > If now we are comparing to the actual root shell: > csh is 419k on the same machine and it depends on libncursesw and libcrypt > How large is a statically linked mksh? /rescue/sh is 8.5MB. Amazingly, that's four times larger than a statically linked bash. If mksh is supposed to be the default, then it might make sense to have a statically linked binary under /rescue. -- Gary Jennejohn From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 11:38:41 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3025C14BF8A5 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:38:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92CCE760AD for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:38:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:c4ea:bd49:619b:6cb3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: matthew/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C9D310C41 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:38:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from matthew@FreeBSD.org) Received: from liminal.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:8b0:151:1:5de7:b3bd:7400:9e58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 10B8618255 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:38:37 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk/10B8618255; dkim=none; dkim-atps=neutral Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> From: Matthew Seaman Openpgp: 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NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:38:41 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --2zaivqmcoffFxZTGosWl9IbL1bs1fEiwR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3XKCYUR2y2jq38VCN8i7F3rlYTm60tnAH"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matthew Seaman To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <7c863100-0b5c-368e-e433-9caaf32e98d0@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> In-Reply-To: --3XKCYUR2y2jq38VCN8i7F3rlYTm60tnAH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25/01/2019 19:10, Eric van Gyzen wrote: > Ditto, except only 2 years on Linux before coming to FreeBSD. I > tried tcsh, since it was the default and in base, but I hated it for > interactive use. Notably absent are one-line =E2=80=9Cfor" loops. On = new > installs, after networking is up, my very first command is =E2=80=9Cpkg= > install bash [and others]=E2=80=9D. I have the opposite experience. I use tcsh as my interactive shell, mostly because I've used it for a long time and my fingers remember the command sequences. If I'm using bash interactively I tend to get frustrated by not being able to type 'foop' to replay the last command starting 'foo'. Yes, I know about r but it just isn't the same. If it's for programming though, it's straight to /bin/sh -- and I will admit to dropping into sh to write for-loops at the command prompt. I'd be happy enough to see the default root shell changed to mksh. I'd be pretty happy to see the root shell switched to our current /bin/sh for that matter. Actually, what advantages does mksh have over /bin/sh? Cheers, Matthew --3XKCYUR2y2jq38VCN8i7F3rlYTm60tnAH-- --2zaivqmcoffFxZTGosWl9IbL1bs1fEiwR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEEGfFU7L8RLlBUTj8wAFE/EOCp5OcFAlxMRrxfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldDE5 RjE1NEVDQkYxMTJFNTA1NDRFM0YzMDAwNTEzRjEwRTBBOUU0RTcACgkQAFE/EOCp 5Ocs1g/+JwOhoJ7SG4GEZU2DXmabJcpfMYfZE7V5W4nREBJuWHpS+1PrAZoaDf9u HnJZPX/6mrEwdjn65yVOjkZGvTuq4FA0OEPQWH/NGHYQywpvcWQLPLst6XsxbFre abEifirx6JkfSU4VBPUQuDFl6qTLasxchH5NpbcLuHa1RlyG9KTuE0Dayy+tGigp R0+HQ/kGlYlI+cHue+LKgIgYuwHzKghXRzXUxruQgwE7m1v0pCz5HXlPRR2399bX CZj1X5S1lsaXjupMb36uNGGxODwESmShv0ARD54ubTX7utn7QL52eXD2ssEd7oV/ 16pmHPSPpw5DbtaCVfcJjZJh5WbaDaXCAzjdqRk84pmgkGk/UW2hzRAYYqJusYKX IF+FYFXGdOQpCsFwuMH1c2PZl5+0pnuakQhb1BKNESCS45IWOAvbIeoiURdZwuoT yCkT5V8wIi4rnDTx9feJNLbxE0wieY7sqENCOJdmcr1bt91VZGGJWAoLkWGvJTkV kARZ77gew3/qBURhlC2vU2cX3xcXfud1SvWZ3kUoxtzbLbiPaeF4CQL1iZcB8CdJ BsWDtCXRz0mSjwv+lT0PEmQebtV+vjQDY5Y+k9/YSqNE1UPs90QQH15munE9T5SC awWogODcVYXhyq63fTUzrCw6ID+wQytWO15NX0mz0u1Xr57Oedo= =bb7t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2zaivqmcoffFxZTGosWl9IbL1bs1fEiwR-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 11:49:23 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032AB14BFC26 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:49:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61731765C1 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:49:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1F82C14BFC25; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:49:22 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF2914BFC24 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:49:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from mx0.gid.co.uk (mx0.gid.co.uk [194.32.164.250]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B775765BD; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:49:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Received: from [194.32.164.27] ([194.32.164.27]) by mx0.gid.co.uk (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id x0QBhb8l087646; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:43:38 GMT (envelope-from rb@gid.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base From: Bob Bishop In-Reply-To: <862c514f-7c19-ce6c-4438-1e765524cee2@quip.cz> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:43:37 +0000 Cc: Jamie Landeg-Jones , grembo@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org, bapt@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <612ABF23-B940-4692-B977-2DF7CD34BC5C@gid.co.uk> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <69E462A0-B9E9-4D26-898F-A96036227E65@FreeBSD.org> <201901251727.x0PHRniq094803@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> <862c514f-7c19-ce6c-4438-1e765524cee2@quip.cz> To: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 7B775765BD X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.94 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.94)[-0.940,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:49:23 -0000 Hi, > On 25 Jan 2019, at 23:49, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >=20 > Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote on 2019/01/25 18:27: >> Heavy tcsh user here - strictly for interactive use (I use bourne = shell for >> shell scripting) >> Still, as long as it continues in base (and I'd be first to volunteer >> to maintain that if needed - it already contains a few patches of = mine), >=20 > Yes please, keep tcsh in base. > After almost 20 years on FreeBSD with tcsh I don't understand how = somebody can user bash as root shell. +1=20 And let=E2=80=99s not forget that bash brought us CVE-2014-6271 = (ShellShock). There may be other vulnerabilities lurking among the fancy = gadgets. > Kind regards > Miroslav Lachman -- Bob Bishop rb@gid.co.uk From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 12:00:51 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071414C048F for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9936A76DD6 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5D05914C048A; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:50 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225FE14C0488 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF3EC76DD0; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Received: from Stefans-MBP-402.fritz.box (p200300CD5F0A55008906AEA9084EF296.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:cd:5f0a:5500:8906:aea9:84e:f296]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: se/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2FF3310E79; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from se@freebsd.org) Subject: Deficiencies compared to /bin/sh To: arch@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <20190125210833.ltnvsxbnlkc6njaw@ivaldir.net> <20190126102238.3b5e0a80@ernst.home> From: Stefan Esser Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=se@freebsd.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFVxiRIBCADOLNOZBsqlplHUQ3tG782FNtVT33rQli9EjNt2fhFERHIo4NxHlWBpHLnU b0s4L/eItx7au0i7Gegv01A9LUMwOnAc9EFAm4EW3Wmoa6MYrcP7xDClohg/Y69f7SNpEs3x YATBy+L6NzWZbJjZXD4vqPgZSDuMcLU7BEdJf0f+6h1BJPnGuwHpsSdnnMrZeIM8xQ8PPUVQ L0GZkVojHgNUngJH6e21qDrud0BkdiBcij0M3TCP4GQrJ/YMdurfc8mhueLpwGR2U1W8TYB7 4UY+NLw0McThOCLCxXflIeF/Y7jSB0zxzvb/H3LWkodUTkV57yX9IbUAGA5RKRg9zsUtABEB AAG0J1N0ZWZhbiBFw59lciAoRnJlZUJTRCkgPHNlQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnPokBVAQTAQoAPgIb AwULCQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAwIBAAIeAQIXgBYhBKNx6mWcC+zIK3FTE0frte9a/fVEBQJa8u+q BQkLJQETAAoJEEfrte9a/fVEOeMH/icmdK1eZQvB3U8quJo9VMaZsaTuCMbUE4NThyfsIvIm MCd+rb/yULmMYwqNfjyKB1x4ikR4x+94l+yJoz7K0Usks+eNKDmMGJM6pWWssTigaJubFdVd hVVC+C1QJi7JshYSib08uONoPmO4lv5Az0TDYGtsMzsES2sIlc62c9go5WPGYhQFRbX3Lk6y V6m8OHh+G9XGSj3oPO4UteRwu+SzTdOLunZBWG1wu34+IeZm663D+2gOppQLWpLa2qaTerqw THu377ayZ2B2LPJ5JkvkZeHYPkwDQ+b5PGn0UhfkxPnDVYki5F7qKxvQ5uq1/q9YaCX7mmOl H2yO7tgVsrW5AQ0EVXGJEgEIALEj9qCXMZVucjpcd3QxM/TlUr98m5viEd1z4tCnPUyRWcIC EVtj2h5xMH+2iB0q1+KWhq+NsWtvScmEmfHnsr7dJ1K677OdpDhKVaJk61eeRulFY1R4yb6C 1MMxK+WgYB+vvpG0UeyR0M4uBewcPvRsq4yGUHFQKtLAbMdoPTSryJA+ElnmK1vdY+rPcHgi OIMBZM7ahsPXC0C9K4e5SP9clGyIoMpbfHXdx9q+Rp3zVtlbhyk3BS/xccu/+9pk9ICXL6GR js2sNnJ0wxdU1DsAlC59a5MnSruwiZFwRnkQhr3x6wk97Lg7sLS9jjTnCN7LGlVmSmpOEMy6 uq1AWfUAEQEAAYkBPAQYAQoAJgIbDBYhBKNx6mWcC+zIK3FTE0frte9a/fVEBQJa8u+rBQkL JQEZAAoJEEfrte9a/fVEuesH/2DNxGWnHvWwMyiyhlQtafvDKwEn/wAgR8gHJFodB7emf8rA TnukH7MVttCoHtjN5lvv9RSBHjNTZls5wR/ANlwdRuPQHd8ZGxLe3S6IuUB3zDSwFltLGurO N2kOMhs5mTGyypSa+uw3rtQbUAVYf1oPbiR4FLtiM8FLyEvE95hX5fPq9Qvx9FmN79kmCIEw jDKPqDaUf/OR2fEF0LSIbXHEk4tNqCEwx5DIJ0fp5/z5UzICUAmwxyRs5O/Hre1jzPsMVyud Ml9t7UTOJGKVWwRory1PMnOFxN+iz5/d4FhYSKXF7kfMiFgol4LuWaxJRwbBrr71VGBrRy2a L1nw6Bc= Cc: gljennjohn@gmail.com Message-ID: <2b7adc50-e423-b36e-6f08-a30c69e3f189@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:00:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190126102238.3b5e0a80@ernst.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: BF3EC76DD0 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.983,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:00:51 -0000 Am 26.01.19 um 10:22 schrieb Gary Jennejohn: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 22:08:33 +0100 > Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:36:40AM -0800, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm >>>> And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) >>>> >>>> Why: >>>> 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting the >>>> expectation are bigger >>> It is more than twice the size of our current /bin/sh, and giving up >>> 200k on the nano/tiny/wifi BSD is hard to justify. 400k is near the >>> size of tcsh. >>> >> To be fair here: >> mksh is 331k on my amd64 machine >> /bin/sh is 165k >> >> mksh only depends on libc >> /bin/sh depends on libc + libedit which adds an additional 231k to the battle. >> >> If now we are comparing to the actual root shell: >> csh is 419k on the same machine and it depends on libncursesw and libcrypt >> > > How large is a statically linked mksh? /rescue/sh is 8.5MB. > Amazingly, that's four times larger than a statically linked > bash. > > If mksh is supposed to be the default, then it might make sense > to have a statically linked binary under /rescue. While I'd appreciate a more feature rich shell in base, I do not think that mksh is a good choice. It even lacks features that have been in our /bin/sh for quite a long time (e.g. 64 bit arithmetics) and diverges from all other shells in non-obvious ways (e.g. shell functions behave differently dependent on whether they are defined as "fn ()" or "function fn"). Unicode handling is also "special" and there are a number of features for which the man page announces planned behavioral changes that are planned for future versions and which will introduce semantic changes that might break shell scripts. There is also no support for associative arrays and the syntax for variable expansion differs in details from other shells (not that relevant for an interactive shell, but I'd really like to have a shell in base with support for associative arrays, if we consider adding one beyond sh and tcsh ...). All these details make it less suited for running shell scripts, and even if the suggestion is to make mksh the default interactive root shell, it will probably be used for scripting, since it offers at least numerically indexed arrays (albeit not fully compatible with e.g. bash). An import of ksh93 would not suffer from these problems, but ksh93 is a much larger shell and not supported on all relevant architectures (broken on aarch64 due to lack of sbrk() according to the port ...). I'd think that such issues should be resolved before any new shell is considered for integration in base ... Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 12:35:32 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B2F14C1F80 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:35:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CE58086A for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:35:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 79C1B14C1F7F; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FF814C1F7E for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:35:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vtr.rulingia.com (vtr.rulingia.com [IPv6:2001:19f0:5801:ebe:5400:1ff:fe53:30fd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vtr.rulingia.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5354980867; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:35:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from server.rulingia.com (ppp59-167-167-3.static.internode.on.net [59.167.167.3]) by vtr.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0QCZIcf068421 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:35:25 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0QCZD5V099696 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:35:13 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x0QCZDCX099695; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:35:13 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:35:13 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190126123513.GA27717@server.rulingia.com> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:35:32 -0000 --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2019-Jan-25 17:57:51 +0100, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm What are mksh's advantages/disadvantages compared with the existing /bin/sh. Personally, I don't see the point of a 3rd shell in the base system. >And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) Whilst I prefer /bin/sh to /bin/csh as root's shell, changing the default would be a significant POLA violation. My suggestion (as has been made elsewhere) is to make the choice of root shell an install option. --=20 Peter Jeremy --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE7rKYbDBnHnTmXCJ+FqWXoOSiCzQFAlxMVAFfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEVF QjI5ODZDMzA2NzFFNzRFNjVDMjI3RTE2QTU5N0EwRTRBMjBCMzQACgkQFqWXoOSi CzSPshAAhSb9xs6qs283yo7xDjz8Ba/6aV/wdVNeXf9ytf1wFxJRKhjg1d7PwuKH 6mhCpEANSZUcuJGQGP1p2CsDDomaivqJjt7YYNOrIpDxPn9exycjoj6/8gyrEPoq KmcesI76fq2h8e8MKOfw4K4ODUeRX3P328YreRawcaHQCAEaHfBfxWugk1jlENSb f0mNh6L6BXrJnRFHkS3A9u02uO8736C7KaDIvMX6NCuVVFRtWCKuWm/Hivyl+gBx xQ6SOP4dcVz7GEN7LmsUII+51H9JcNF4rPJ9YqThQEuM4wnQUV6179tMxo74ujCp LrWHj3vdJsxoj867X14iZOmBquL0rC7qEUif8Ph02F3zQZzrDX0wGQ1S1s3O4V1q 3sjtTtWk+ks5azyHUGqiz3yCSJdrANcd23dzKzIQh/JVmXGMORWalYmCo8j3AmMA ZznMq4U96fqodtyoNOc/peyOAxGO7skoWJdDBtyfp2MQWHMM0Cpnu0m/6gkeiFQI nvKSGURQoMThmYojUmCjRItEgxOFPWoXulrFC5C5GOOh3PSkrKJOrTp0BigRCULx y+0xoqUyatlnkq7K+Zf8JgFTnEslngulhZo/X5XgJ7jYozCTgfuWvIwWfzScyH8C uaWRg9yAyis6XqO8KrMG4avRbBQFQOxwT1JJ9lb5DjUNGC7oM7k= =11dL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 12:39:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A0514C2141 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:39:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EBE80A16 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:39:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 545FE14C2140; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:39:35 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4161B14C213F for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:39:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from vtr.rulingia.com (vtr.rulingia.com [IPv6:2001:19f0:5801:ebe:5400:1ff:fe53:30fd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "vtr.rulingia.com", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F7E380A15 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:39:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) Received: from server.rulingia.com (ppp59-167-167-3.static.internode.on.net [59.167.167.3]) by vtr.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0QCdPn0068448 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:39:31 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@rulingia.com) X-Bogosity: Ham, spamicity=0.000000 Received: from server.rulingia.com (localhost.rulingia.com [127.0.0.1]) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0QCdKee099731 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:39:20 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter@server.rulingia.com) Received: (from peter@localhost) by server.rulingia.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x0QCdKJl099730; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:39:20 +1100 (AEDT) (envelope-from peter) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:39:20 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy To: Gary Jennejohn Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190126123920.GB27717@server.rulingia.com> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <201901251936.x0PJaepi089796@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <20190125210833.ltnvsxbnlkc6njaw@ivaldir.net> <20190126102238.3b5e0a80@ernst.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E39vaYmALEf/7YXx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20190126102238.3b5e0a80@ernst.home> X-PGP-Key: http://www.rulingia.com/keys/peter.pgp User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 12:39:36 -0000 --E39vaYmALEf/7YXx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2019-Jan-26 10:22:38 +0100, Gary Jennejohn wrote: >How large is a statically linked mksh? /rescue/sh is 8.5MB.=20 /rescue contains one statically-linked binary with 143 (on my system) names, providing the functionality of much of /bin and /sbin. Claiming that /rescue/sh is 8.5MB is meaningless. --=20 Peter Jeremy --E39vaYmALEf/7YXx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQKTBAEBCgB9FiEE7rKYbDBnHnTmXCJ+FqWXoOSiCzQFAlxMVPdfFIAAAAAALgAo aXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3BlbnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEVF QjI5ODZDMzA2NzFFNzRFNjVDMjI3RTE2QTU5N0EwRTRBMjBCMzQACgkQFqWXoOSi CzT9kw/+I/SCsWcUJ2KRKgc7G3z/10qczO5btTTa9ay7ZGUX6AQpSop3Nm6U5EMJ uClxTZfhOy+m1lKmEwDBm3UdGJBmVyykUuOqVb7l0wm5DHdVWuk0zxY3ll5d+5k3 2D9WV9/XeYXVtzCgXb7EeVMZzesw5ZYpImKc+8Qcb6H0jpAvzEuW5bU33kywYYlz zxN8WCecfCJ5kBMN1GY4SZyWaRL4uWqrjLJy3VxztvmlP0BGcL2/fd4l4Ohu+PF1 yiaDTuaEdjCD1NTUQ/4ogQWLtJTX6/dGl0FFFfLkbORJtOla2V6tDgDh7ja3nR9r IxHV36kFV2xyk5Z9IKjfh0JhRW2AfzYviIyFQ2G2bbswOzgSFriIZUqZZrfTy/CR GYnB1rsRZWmI7Brv/PX5keD7FqQg+napcvXo5TrEpZromkQveNj17PeKdq1Kkw4v m1+RfthYyrVGiX4/MJrW94+XlXAnyhL/lmmzoKYoGSTJpXtjcYMe1qg87W9EzXBr m3A33JCCtXHySx+ggTp02ItZlCBC9HaTDvijYT0L7Wu8OxReb5M++zZfehKb9g6R 0ixmVXS05y+hD2umcmmemzERdcPJmvZYDHKXXFbmYy/utOmMqNlTMCyeAhFhibFf 3BhRTgkOlabhsE2Zz+gR/CYle/YbVoBu7+Kd11GOQ7ycQAsc9mQ= =WAeB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E39vaYmALEf/7YXx-- From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 13:49:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D1914C3E96 for ; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base To: Bob Bishop ,Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> CC: Jamie Landeg-Jones , grembo@freebsd.org, dteske@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org From: Baptiste Daroussin Message-ID: <9A54D267-DE69-4C88-857D-9C523C853EDA@FreeBSD.org> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 204B583E42 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.972,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:49:52 -0000 Le 26 janvier 2019 12:43:37 GMT+01:00, Bob Bishop a =C3= =A9crit : >Hi, > >> On 25 Jan 2019, at 23:49, Miroslav Lachman <000=2Efbsd@quip=2Ecz> wrote= : >>=20 >> Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote on 2019/01/25 18:27: >>> Heavy tcsh user here - strictly for interactive use (I use bourne >shell for >>> shell scripting) >>> Still, as long as it continues in base (and I'd be first to >volunteer >>> to maintain that if needed - it already contains a few patches of >mine), >>=20 >> Yes please, keep tcsh in base=2E >> After almost 20 years on FreeBSD with tcsh I don't understand how >somebody can user bash as root shell=2E > >+1=20 > >And let=E2=80=99s not forget that bash brought us CVE-2014-6271 (ShellSho= ck)=2E >There may be other vulnerabilities lurking among the fancy gadgets=2E > No one is proposing to bring in bash, mksh is clearly not as fancy as bash Bapt From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 14:06:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12EA14C44B3 for ; 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[82.1.209.206]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v133sm56450312wmf.19.2019.01.26.06.06.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 06:06:33 -0800 (PST) Sender: =?UTF-8?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=C5=82a?= Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:04:48 +0000 From: Edward Tomasz =?utf-8?Q?Napiera=C5=82a?= To: Matthew Seaman Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base Message-ID: <20190126140448.GA28402@v2> Mail-Followup-To: Matthew Seaman , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> <7c863100-0b5c-368e-e433-9caaf32e98d0@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7c863100-0b5c-368e-e433-9caaf32e98d0@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9A23C847F2 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=jBy/1FEe; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of etnapierala@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::42b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=etnapierala@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(-2.73)[ip: (-9.39), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.25), asn: 15169(-1.93), country: US(-0.08)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.71)[-0.715,0]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[trasz@freebsd.org,etnapierala@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[trasz@freebsd.org,etnapierala@gmail.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:06:37 -0000 On 0126T1138, Matthew Seaman wrote: > On 25/01/2019 19:10, Eric van Gyzen wrote: > > Ditto, except only 2 years on Linux before coming to FreeBSD. I > > tried tcsh, since it was the default and in base, but I hated it for > > interactive use. Notably absent are one-line “for" loops. On new > > installs, after networking is up, my very first command is “pkg > > install bash [and others]”. > I have the opposite experience. I use tcsh as my interactive shell, > mostly because I've used it for a long time and my fingers remember the > command sequences. If I'm using bash interactively I tend to get > frustrated by not being able to type 'foop' to replay the last > command starting 'foo'. Yes, I know about r but it just isn't the > same. > > If it's for programming though, it's straight to /bin/sh -- and I will > admit to dropping into sh to write for-loops at the command prompt. > > I'd be happy enough to see the default root shell changed to mksh. I'd > be pretty happy to see the root shell switched to our current /bin/sh > for that matter. Actually, what advantages does mksh have over /bin/sh? I don't know mksh all that well, but two obvious areas where sh(1) could be improved for interactive use are: 1. It does support history, but it doesn't support loading it from disk, nor writing it on exit. I have a half-baked patch that adds it, if anyone's interested. 2. The tab completion works fine for paths, but not for commands. So, for example if you type 'camc', it won't get completed, while 'vi /etc/rc.c' will work. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 16:47:20 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F89B14C8B4E for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4608A86F for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 5021714C8B4D; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:19 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142A114C8B4C for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 335AD8A86C; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: from pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id x0QGlDsG094337; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 08:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd-rwg@localhost) by pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id x0QGlDeG094336; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 08:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd-rwg) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <201901261647.x0QGlDeG094336@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: <20190126123513.GA27717@server.rulingia.com> To: Peter Jeremy Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 08:47:13 -0800 (PST) CC: Baptiste Daroussin , arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 335AD8A86C X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.97 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.97)[-0.965,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:20 -0000 -- Start of PGP signed section. > On 2019-Jan-25 17:57:51 +0100, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > >I would like to import mksh in base, https://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm > > What are mksh's advantages/disadvantages compared with the existing /bin/sh. > Personally, I don't see the point of a 3rd shell in the base system. > > >And make it the default root shell (not necessary in one step) > > Whilst I prefer /bin/sh to /bin/csh as root's shell, changing the > default would be a significant POLA violation. My suggestion (as has > been made elsewhere) is to make the choice of root shell an install > option. As voiced elsewhere I'll expand on the "install option" situation. In my view I agree with the other poster on that issue that we should try to keep install options to a minimum as it creates an installer that is too interactive. However what we can do is to educate the user that there are many things they may wish to change about the default install to suit there needs better. IMHO it is a mistake to try and tweak our default install to suit any of these varied desires, you can not ever get even close to satisfying a small percentage, so keep it VERY minimal. If you want root's shell as an install option, there is that last screen "Drop to a shell in the installed system?". This is a very feature reach installer option system. Want root to use /bin/sh: type chsh -s /bin/sh root Want sshd started on boot: type echo 'sshd_enable="YES"' >>/etc/rc.conf Do not want that toor account in the password file: type vipw and remove it I believe if your network attached at this point you can even do a "pkg bootstrap && pkg install FOO". Much of what we have as installer options could be handled this way and a huge list of things provided to the user in a simple text document "How to tweak your BSD so it fits your likes using the installer shell". We are unix geeks, lets use our toolbox and not some god forbiden dialog menu screen system (not that the installer is not a wonderful thing for new users.) Personally I have a tarball overlay that I scp and untar onto the system at this stage, mostly it is new files, but files I need to alter, like /root/.cshrc is handled by /tmp/overlay.diff which is simple a patch rooted at / that does these tweaks (One reason I get upset about people tweaking on the default config scripts that we ship, as I have to revise this patch and have a different version for each release that has different files, its become a PITA. No need for /bin/mksh, no need for /root/.shrc, no need for any aliases in any dot.foo files. Clean it up and let these areas be the site customizations they are intended to be and stop trying to make the defaults work for everyone. My paint is blue, I buy it by the rail car, and I dip paint my bike sheds :-) -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 23:21:02 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAE714B25F7 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:21:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434BC71FCF for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:21:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 0747B14B25F6; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:21:01 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D622114B25F2 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:21:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "Thawte RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B0371FC9; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108162.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x0QNHdWW023668; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:58 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : from : mime-version : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : date : message-id; s=PPS1017; bh=XR/QzGGl5c24GfgmY+V+j5M0dtNWeP84H+4j7Pxk4r4=; b=jWLrTxUZ1qsakPUpbI4v46SsFlSyjQKfU+TcuYRLAyMiB5QbO3TlMw4dnezR6le/f0Bm 2mSS2Ynb4iCSzv6+i9ItT9NYuNMIoXCGw4cc3IjuinJdwXhqPsax4fSwPogSXYozC7gu P37skysKRazHC07jAIQm7+ilELkDC9MqnWNkNNEmYlvhVmmX7SR09T+dOmVfC5rEosc7 BXTC1QpeGmJoTfNP6l7ADtO45AgaTL18XDmXwn8W10HL6TQCk7gQ/vU5yg5Ibw2PrGdk N73ZMK8Pv63+UDjEcSDvAUXnppDacFawU/3YSBisSKA69Xue62amS1nxZuauZJeAAcNL Cw== Received: from nam05-dm3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam05lp2054.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.49.54]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2q8ppdrknr-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:58 -0800 Received: from DM6PR05CA0001.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:f8::14) by CO1PR05MB491.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:103b::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.1580.6; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:20:56 +0000 Received: from BY2NAM05FT024.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:f400:7e52::204) by DM6PR05CA0001.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:5:f8::14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1558.13 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:20:55 +0000 Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.12 as permitted sender) Received: from P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (66.129.239.12) by BY2NAM05FT024.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.100.161) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.2 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:20:55 +0000 Received: from P-EXBEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.52) by P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:54 -0800 Received: from P-EXBEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.52) by P-EXBEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:54 -0800 Received: from p-mailhub01.juniper.net (10.104.20.6) by P-EXBEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:54 -0800 Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (kaos.jnpr.net [172.23.50.162]) by p-mailhub01.juniper.net (8.14.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id x0QNKsrD019995; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:54 -0800 (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: by kaos.jnpr.net (Postfix, from userid 1377) id 3C7776B476; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ADD06B475; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:20:54 -0800 (PST) To: Baptiste Daroussin CC: , Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> References: <20190125165751.kpcjjncmf7j7maxd@ivaldir.net> Comments: In-reply-to: Baptiste Daroussin message dated "Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:57:51 +0100." 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I've used that since about '89 (bias alert I was maintainer for about 10 years) never had problem with it - it's the ksh on netbsd fwiw. emacs mode in pdksh is pretty good (again biased - I put a lot of work into it). I pinched the src from netbsd to build for freebsd (for junos ;-). Is 400k figure below statically linked? -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 217K Mar 5 2018 /bin/ksh /packages/mnt/ksh32-cd051739/bin/ksh: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (FreeBSD), dynamically linked, interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1, FreeBSD-style, for FreeBSD 11.0 (1100120), not stripped --sjg > Why: > 1/ it is tiny 400k (in the packaged version) all other shells fitting th= e > expectation are bigger > 2/ it's default frontend in interactive mode is very close to what most = people > are used to with bash and shells as default root shell on other BSD and = most > linuxes > 3/ from my narrow window csh as a default root shell is one of the major > complaint (usually the first thing a user get faced to) from new comers = and > also for some long timers who are reinstalling a machine and have not ye= t > installed/configured a bourne compatible shell > What this proposal is _NOT_ about: > 1/ the removal of tcsh from base > 2/ any kid of denial of the quality and interest or features of csh > = > What do you think? 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If not, this proposal looks ksh not bash. I use bash when forced to (due to lack of ksh) I haven't used csh since '89 and I've been using BSD since '93 bapt sounds like mksh is derrived from pdksh, and looks well supported. 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It is the original and authoritative Korn > shell. EPL i Sure but my experience was (back in maybe 2000 or there abouts) it was lame compared to pdksh ;-) emacs mode as crude, no interactive history search. > As to replacing root's shell, replacing tcsh is a large POLA > violation. Maybe give users the option at install time instead. Yes - netbsd have done that for years, no need to surprise/upset anyone. 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From: "Simon J. 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A /bin/sh compatible shell with good user interaction, is great. You can cut/paste lines from shell scripts to test interactively rather than have to first spawn /bin/sh > isn't that great. I don't think conformity is a great argument for change > in this regard. I don't see any other advantage to this change. I could > be wrong but I also think it might be incorrect to say bash is the default > root shell on other BSD's. I don't think anyone said that. ksh is one of the options for root shell on netbsd - has been for at least a decade or so. I've always used ksh as root shell. > If there is some change to the root shell, I'd rather see it to be zsh > which does have a good interactive mode. FWIW I never liked zsh - seemed a bit like bash - trying to be a hybrid of every shell that ever was. Believe it or not, some people do not like csh at all, and will use anything else. --sjg From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sat Jan 26 23:54:25 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B491114B352E; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:54:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.pphosted.com", Issuer "Thawte RSA CA 2018" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5AF473674; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:54:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108156.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x0QNm26Z012500; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:18 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : references : from : mime-version : content-type : content-id : date : message-id; s=PPS1017; bh=XgapQDxW+tqut+2D5PBuh/zUGz7JPOpn2feVINGsZRk=; b=03WmstX4jt6vk9QxdXuvU4CKYYBPHXA5FQFRtMx5YwDMYqlVPKdErmS9tBL8kcWcdkNy 1Ga44GxgeAuNKfZZ+aNKYz7yk0vK7fMi7qsEAe0KXmzY1gYP3sBqqieTTWxG1AFD/SoN RKfYi1Jg4GaVB+3TKwZxxHb2CDtbRFffupQIqIpk3xye6kXXUS6EgztDyZEplZk3d8hK 3i/UyvKI5t03dul0Yb0zOc3rj8lU1c5amjUANLpDrC0eovZ6e0xcd3XZymiOnX5asEop ARpr0pGhU8g5eOzDEiqBcRbq3hwXp8vbET7PXM85pPFP3ymkf3UXJzxVBepnQZDISkXM jw== Received: from nam02-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02lp2059.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.59]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2q8qesgjtx-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:17 -0800 Received: from BN6PR05CA0021.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:405:39::34) by MWHPR05MB3088.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:300:b1::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1558.15; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:54:14 +0000 Received: from CO1NAM05FT058.eop-nam05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:f400:7e50::201) by BN6PR05CA0021.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:405:39::34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1558.9 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:54:13 +0000 Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.12 as permitted sender) Received: from P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (66.129.239.12) by CO1NAM05FT058.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.96.176) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.2 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 23:54:13 +0000 Received: from P-EXBEND-EQX-02.jnpr.net (10.104.8.53) by P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net (10.104.8.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:12 -0800 Received: from p-mailhub01.juniper.net (10.104.20.6) by P-EXBEND-EQX-02.jnpr.net (10.104.8.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:12 -0800 Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (kaos.jnpr.net [172.23.50.162]) by p-mailhub01.juniper.net (8.14.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id x0QNsC14015767; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:12 -0800 (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: by kaos.jnpr.net (Postfix, from userid 1377) id 4B11C6B492; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kaos.jnpr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496006B491; Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:54:12 -0800 (PST) To: Cy Schubert CC: Baptiste Daroussin , , , Subject: Re: Importing mksh in base In-Reply-To: <201901252129.x0PLTQAn008365@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <201901252129.x0PLTQAn008365@slippy.cwsent.com> Comments: In-reply-to: Cy Schubert message dated "Fri, 25 Jan 2019 13:29:26 -0800." 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Large commercial vendors, > like Oracle, still require ksh for its array handling among other > things. pdksh (hence I assume mksh) has had array support for ages. The only thing I ever found it useful for was cd history, and I actually have an implementation of that for sh that does not need arrays. > It has that advantage. For embedded this is an advantage. However if > embedded is using ksh as a scripting language mksh and pdksh aren't As noted earlier I've used [pd]ksh as shell for 30 years. I do *not* write ksh scripts (except for .kshrc etc ;-) The beauty of ksh as interactive shell is it's (mostly) compatability with /bin/sh - which scripts should be written in. Now on some systems (HPUX springs to mind ;-) /bin/sh is so bad that one has to use ksh to run scripts - but they are still sh scripts.