From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 1 04:51:22 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DB91C670C for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:51:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47QbRs6thpz3yWD for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:51:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id EC5AC1C670A; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:51:21 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC23C1C6709 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:51:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47QbRs60nkz3yWC; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:51:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qv1-f45.google.com (mail-qv1-f45.google.com [209.85.219.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A56204F3B; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:51:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qv1-f45.google.com with SMTP id i3so13167821qvv.7; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX+84s6/z2vt4m9Mxlykvpt5jk5Qpv3AHHEXYNimk2JLMGg0/xV KHaUJDkstfynsAuSvImDVBSvTteq9icNx9oZVjo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyeiZ0TahvLw9i+IsnLACyBQhnpoPxBy7Au0LXu0BFCtPFu0ZT1LcWRwO3SsZw2x5GwV5MLM5+cORc+kNslCn4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:22c:: with SMTP id j12mr25898414qvt.150.1575175881066; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:51:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kyle Evans Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:51:10 -0600 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: rc(4) deprecation To: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , John Baldwin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 04:51:22 -0000 Hi, While we're in the process of deprecating stuff -- rc(4) [RISCom/8] seems like a good candidate; any objections? It still uses spltty and appears to be completely broken at compile-time, perhaps not updated past the ~'08 TTY revamp project? Thanks, Kyle Evans From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 1 04:58:12 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB971C6B7D for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47Qbbl56ydz3yt9 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id AFC3B1C6B7C; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:11 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF88F1C6B7A for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47Qbbl1nCSz3yt8 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qt1-f171.google.com (mail-qt1-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 16579506F for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qt1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 14so37476422qtf.5 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:58:11 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXi212prmMGJcIiz7lXDzimBs3nCMfWG3EPEtv6xNc9yuKPMwsO 5AXhD7drwBThhtbZ+pZ75Gz3cWsGX+PNMoub58o= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:33b4:: with SMTP id c49mt49828805qtb.60.1575176290558; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:58:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Evans Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:57:59 -0600 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: rc(4) deprecation Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , John Baldwin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 04:58:12 -0000 On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:51 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > > Hi, > > While we're in the process of deprecating stuff -- rc(4) [RISCom/8] > seems like a good candidate; any objections? > > It still uses spltty and appears to be completely broken at > compile-time, perhaps not updated past the ~'08 TTY revamp project? > Ditto all of the above for cy(4) as well. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 1 04:58:21 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E64C1C6BA4 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47Qbbw6vShz3yxN for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id ECD7D1C6BA3; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:20 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA631C6BA2 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 04:58:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72a.google.com (mail-qk1-x72a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47Qbbv6dnBz3yxK for ; 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Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:58:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:58:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: rc(4) deprecation To: Kyle Evans Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , John Baldwin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47Qbbv6dnBz3yxK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=aEZvreUF; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.71 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.71)[ip: (-9.32), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.25), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 04:58:21 -0000 On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 9:51 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > It still uses spltty and appears to be completely broken at > compile-time, perhaps not updated past the ~'08 TTY revamp project? > spl* is a complete nop these days... But this driver is 100% broken. It should have been removed in 8.0 time frame. There's nothing here to 'deprecate' more to just delete something that Ed forgot to remove a decade ago... We had a bunch of of other tty drivers that we retired around the same time because nobody stepped up to bringing them forward... This one looks to be forgotten... Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 1 17:46:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BD11B2C2A for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 17:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47Qwfh2XHvz43sP for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 17:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 56E541B2C29; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 17:46:52 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56AB81B2C27 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 17:46:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47Qwfg3HQSz43sL for ; 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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 09:46:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:46:38 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: rc(4) deprecation To: Kyle Evans Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47Qwfg3HQSz43sL X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=QGjaJ7R2; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::833) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.70)[ip: (-9.24), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.25), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 17:46:52 -0000 On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 9:58 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:51 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > While we're in the process of deprecating stuff -- rc(4) [RISCom/8] > > seems like a good candidate; any objections? > > > > It still uses spltty and appears to be completely broken at > > compile-time, perhaps not updated past the ~'08 TTY revamp project? > > > > Ditto all of the above for cy(4) as well. > IIRC, I didn't remove cy years ago because bde asked me to hold off until he could get it converted... You might ask him how that went... 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If RANDOM_LOADABLE support was dropped in We use it in all our kernels. For FIPS 140-? certification we need to load *only* an approved PRNG. We don't particularly like that and nor do some of our customers - so some 4th does runtime selection of rng module during boot. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sun Dec 1 22:37:40 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD791BB93F for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:37:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47R36C5h5kz4LyG for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id C14151BB93E; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:37:39 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FCA1BB93C for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:37:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com (mail-oi1-f175.google.com [209.85.167.175]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47R36B5nXpz4LyF for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:37:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id x21so23587337oic.0 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 14:37:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RhqQYo0shFfJ/2KCX502/3D27J3VxDCS+X/uH7mwkb8=; b=LzWhmFmdEq7t/KAAzVuyubrqwbH2aeLDAv651mDhgDPhr2hLstrAsSYYvUJ4wXA/XP 00KZOnBaSADJjTvjzaSSnpVf8R7TI5e1r4PE3xEiCKytqfeiJS9j+5FOFAE5aOUpCLGM UEdKV0Jwy2GIHgveILVsjbXZ0LNGnlAtLbHCY1t7xqnsae/utWWmeeMaq/92VBfMKPtb +i/yGtGAPUEx05wwb0HlLB/UzYeZSaH38s/O842qq6O4xOjh4L/JFkMbvibrCVzBhCB8 rWyGJp+0sqcgxskugQ4LXgpKyur1weCQgmYgbxp3DggLNkvUC8AWslgIOkeekoQwlp7M VAEw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU48LERS87O4m6VHQTBTX4Et9XCv7NI4+VpM+Ud++jZ38MlIAHX WjzmGoFqIbF9ur0gBJNiQQtRztos X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz8yuJAMqPF6eP0AhwP1nw3swqYOhcN5jx60ZUilxdUkxCSYiMwbDVv/KPZhTf/5ase5tf9NQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:906:: with SMTP id w6mr20051259oih.122.1575239857040; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 14:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-f179.google.com (mail-oi1-f179.google.com. [209.85.167.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4sm5399586oic.22.2019.12.01.14.37.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Dec 2019 14:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-f179.google.com with SMTP id k196so14316235oib.2 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 14:37:36 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:aca:aacf:: with SMTP id t198mr3892397oie.135.1575239856589; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 14:37:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40710.1575238505@kaos.jnpr.net> In-Reply-To: <40710.1575238505@kaos.jnpr.net> Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org From: Conrad Meyer Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 14:37:25 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Killing RANDOM_LOADABLE? To: "Simon J. Gerraty" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47R36B5nXpz4LyF X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of csecem@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=csecem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[cem@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[cem@freebsd.org,csecem@gmail.com]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[cem@freebsd.org,csecem@gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[175.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.10)[ip: (-0.33), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.16), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[175.167.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 22:37:40 -0000 Hi Simon, On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 14:19 Simon J. Gerraty wrote: > Conrad Meyer wrote: > > If you use / need RANDOM_LOADABLE, can you provide some information on > > your use case and needs? If RANDOM_LOADABLE support was dropped in > > We use it in all our kernels. For FIPS 140-? certification we need to > load *only* an approved PRNG. We don't particularly like that and nor > do some of our customers - so some 4th does runtime selection of rng > module during boot. > > I appreciate the quick feedback, thanks. The algorithm/ internals aren=E2= =80=99t too important for me; I=E2=80=99m interested in what your minimal api needs= from FreeBSD are. It sounds like you select the random module to load in loader(8) =E2=80=94 = you don=E2=80=99t need userspace / runtime loading (kldload). Is that understan= ding correct? Would it be possible to answer the other questions from the initial email, too? If random loadable support was removed upstream, are you unable to address your needs in the junos tree? Why? 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Gerraty wrote: > Conrad Meyer wrote: > > If you use / need RANDOM_LOADABLE, can you provide some information on > > your use case and needs? If RANDOM_LOADABLE support was dropped in > > We use it in all our kernels. For FIPS 140-? certification we need to Correction - we did. Disabled it a couple of years ago. We preload the chosen module so I guess RANDOM_LOADABLE is unnecessary. > load *only* an approved PRNG. We don't particularly like that and nor > do some of our customers - so some 4th does runtime selection of rng > module during boot. 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In-Reply-To: References: <40710.1575238505@kaos.jnpr.net> Comments: In-reply-to: Conrad Meyer message dated "Sun, 01 Dec 2019 14:37:25 -0800." From: "Simon J. Gerraty" X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7.1; GNU Emacs 26.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 18:42:10 -0800 Message-ID: <95398.1575254530@kaos.jnpr.net> X-EXCLAIMER-MD-CONFIG: e3cb0ff2-54e7-4646-8a04-0dae4ac7b136 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:66.129.242.12; IPV:CAL; SCL:-1; CTRY:US; EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(346002)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(376002)(189003)(199004)(54906003)(6916009)(9686003)(55016002)(316002)(8676002)(8746002)(229853002)(336012)(81166006)(81156014)(8936002)(50226002)(356004)(7126003)(23676004)(76176011)(2906002)(7696005)(2351001)(2486003)(86362001)(305945005)(14444005)(50466002)(7116003)(47776003)(446003)(11346002)(4744005)(5660300002)(26826003)(478600001)(117636001)(4326008)(6246003)(107886003)(450100002)(97876018)(186003)(6266002)(26005)(70206006)(76130400001)(70586007)(76506006)(53416004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN6PR05MB2833; H:P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net; FPR:; SPF:SoftFail; LANG:en; PTR:InfoDomainNonexistent; MX:1; A:1; X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: baeb3ca8-c0bc-48b6-445d-08d776d1424b X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BN6PR05MB2833: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508; X-Forefront-PRVS: 0239D46DB6 X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: S9z+OYOJXIyF81Ynv6VDlFcIXUdMe7jAx+IVjNnDDp3Y33n04mII9K6fHNS9JpjWMhPLWQFh8jZcqI8Xw8D5vtbKlbwKxVq3sq5u3UCqnhMHH/9xan9pk2h1YYD1NRXKM2B/5Po3lYbMAt37hoj/jNR/4+8TipyTP8W76LoOxlk3IyAxNk2juHVKYKi84nBrwp90vYKw7Gy6+UzGRwgtBnUGM69aTeqVOymC6yDSuSIlSf8t/yO5Dg4EzgEmCESwGBBQ0DyXJR1UYiwQzaul57FWiddaXKlyB02g3Y1ooG7iFShfGUSxsD4vjdNeqEpzg3g8jMp6YMZn7iSY9lyasJ67nsgvodmFh5u2kvqAwWMjbUf/8Npj1C3QGV+jG2WJMhhX3LNTAsFwA1vLJDFLl/q7vXBbrCAZP1EhBjHYxsBwuNOK3UeLgDx5nJ5GXA30 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Dec 2019 02:42:22.7675 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: baeb3ca8-c0bc-48b6-445d-08d776d1424b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; Ip=[66.129.242.12]; Helo=[P-EXFEND-EQX-01.jnpr.net] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR05MB2833 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,18.0.572 definitions=2019-12-01_04:2019-11-29,2019-12-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=1 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=876 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-1912020022 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47R8Xk2N5Dz4X7p X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.98 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 02:42:30 -0000 Conrad Meyer wrote: > I appreciate the quick feedback, thanks. The algorithm/ internals aren= =E2=80=99t > too important for me; I=E2=80=99m interested in what your minimal api nee= ds from > FreeBSD are. >=20 > It sounds like you select the random module to load in loader(8) =E2=80= =94 you > don=E2=80=99t need userspace / runtime loading (kldload). Is that underst= anding > correct? Per my followup, we are no longer using RANDOM_LOADABLE, we preload the selected module. So long as that functionality is not broken we should be ok. > Would it be possible to answer the other questions from the initial email, > too? If random loadable support was removed upstream, are you unable to Since we haven't used it for a couple of years I'd hope we would not be impacted but I know we've been bitten in the past by changes in the random infra, though I don't recall the detail - will check with some other folk. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 2 03:09:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20C91C29C8 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:09:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47R97y4DkKz4YQt for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:09:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 8F1EB1C29C7; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:09:34 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDDD1C29C5 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:09:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-f44.google.com (mail-ot1-f44.google.com [209.85.210.44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47R97x5JYgz4YQs for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:09:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cse.cem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-f44.google.com with SMTP id o9so8728646ote.2 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:09:33 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uGOYiE/aOuZDQEMppRGXriC36cJ6mDQAfyrAEI0Jnyg=; b=rFEkN7turB/WieqmDeVstN9Itdppjf1PVgXHMyp3l44phh5u5dE9BdK8TVDXk6YmnC A7A8ljy8TtEACX/vRmehinGne6Sr8M1EfsfhlSMi66369wc7/cjqs5Rj5maEFjdLgU+z jhAuGZDVz8Y8bznTQajwGGyAdlDOd7zyu+sOUQkkaStATEptj3ztB2W+LNoxPcVSkhT9 Q4xoVksEo8EI2g2fSFPdPUWHLCbMDpPO1/AkBbNc1OShm/6KL5ghHKwpGVU7EhZ2IlOx Sg+9l2fLhg5B91D0vdxUR93NL9tExSx/BiYLQKrwvhHNO69X/zB5W1VeQlw3U4sFyUEr Qc7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVRaDlwkLlAJaFLosmOv8nYI+ZTUVk6dgw4SKGxTcQNLMTooGwv w3L52p8tIC79fYUq83T2t22IeFO1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw8oVK+EH4mgL7OYIWsmNj5ZaAug1nwcl6hDSGWsMyITZLnpPTLnc7GfirEs5iyxMHxVBcNrw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:22e2:: with SMTP id t2mr20375517otc.129.1575256172016; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f44.google.com (mail-ot1-f44.google.com. [209.85.210.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g18sm10420868otg.50.2019.12.01.19.09.30 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f44.google.com with SMTP id i4so2870971otr.3 for ; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:09:30 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1211:: with SMTP id r17mr20020620otp.157.1575256170506; Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:09:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40710.1575238505@kaos.jnpr.net> <95398.1575254530@kaos.jnpr.net> In-Reply-To: <95398.1575254530@kaos.jnpr.net> Reply-To: cem@freebsd.org From: Conrad Meyer Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 19:09:19 -0800 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Killing RANDOM_LOADABLE? To: "Simon J. Gerraty" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47R97x5JYgz4YQs X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of csecem@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=csecem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[cem@freebsd.org]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[cem@freebsd.org,csecem@gmail.com]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[cem@freebsd.org,csecem@gmail.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[44.210.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ip: (-0.38), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.16), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 03:09:34 -0000 On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 6:42 PM Simon J. Gerraty wrote: > Per my followup, we are no longer using RANDOM_LOADABLE, > we preload the selected module. So long as that functionality is not > broken we should be ok. If your preload system does not use RANDOM_LOADABLE, then perhaps there aren't any consumers. That'd be great. I don't intend to change loader(8) preloading or the kernel linker in relation to this topic. > Since we haven't used it for a couple of years I'd hope we would not be > impacted but I know we've been bitten in the past by changes in the random > infra, though I don't recall the detail - will check with some other > folk. Thanks for checking, I appreciate it. Best, Conrad From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 2 17:01:24 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D4F1B04B2 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:01:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47RWbm0g17z450D for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:01:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 1673B1B04B1; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:01:24 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163011B04B0 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:01:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47RWbl6tnLz4509; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:01:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from John-Baldwins-MacBook-Pro-5.local (ralph.baldwin.cx [66.234.199.215]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: jhb) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F7411470E; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:01:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Subject: Re: rc(4) deprecation To: Warner Losh , Kyle Evans Cc: "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" References: From: John Baldwin Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jhb@FreeBSD.org; keydata= mQGiBETQ+XcRBADMFybiq69u+fJRy/0wzqTNS8jFfWaBTs5/OfcV7wWezVmf9sgwn8TW0Dk0 c9MBl0pz+H01dA2ZSGZ5fXlmFIsee1WEzqeJzpiwd/pejPgSzXB9ijbLHZ2/E0jhGBcVy5Yo /Tw5+U/+laeYKu2xb0XPvM0zMNls1ah5OnP9a6Ql6wCgupaoMySb7DXm2LHD1Z9jTsHcAQMD /1jzh2BoHriy/Q2s4KzzjVp/mQO5DSm2z14BvbQRcXU48oAosHA1u3Wrov6LfPY+0U1tG47X 1BGfnQH+rNAaH0livoSBQ0IPI/8WfIW7ub4qV6HYwWKVqkDkqwcpmGNDbz3gfaDht6nsie5Z pcuCcul4M9CW7Md6zzyvktjnbz61BADGDCopfZC4of0Z3Ka0u8Wik6UJOuqShBt1WcFS8ya1 oB4rc4tXfSHyMF63aPUBMxHR5DXeH+EO2edoSwViDMqWk1jTnYza51rbGY+pebLQOVOxAY7k do5Ordl3wklBPMVEPWoZ61SdbcjhHVwaC5zfiskcxj5wwXd2E9qYlBqRg7QeSm9obiBCYWxk d2luIDxqaGJARnJlZUJTRC5vcmc+iGAEExECACAFAkTQ+awCGwMGCwkIBwMCBBUCCAMEFgID AQIeAQIXgAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BI6RAJ9S97fvbME+3hxzE3JUyUZ6vTewDACdE1stFuSfqMvM jomvZdYxIYyTUpC5Ag0ERND5ghAIAPwsO0B7BL+bz8sLlLoQktGxXwXQfS5cInvL17Dsgnr3 1AKa94j9EnXQyPEj7u0d+LmEe6CGEGDh1OcGFTMVrof2ZzkSy4+FkZwMKJpTiqeaShMh+Goj XlwIMDxyADYvBIg3eN5YdFKaPQpfgSqhT+7El7w+wSZZD8pPQuLAnie5iz9C8iKy4/cMSOrH YUK/tO+Nhw8Jjlw94Ik0T80iEhI2t+XBVjwdfjbq3HrJ0ehqdBwukyeJRYKmbn298KOFQVHO EVbHA4rF/37jzaMadK43FgJ0SAhPPF5l4l89z5oPu0b/+5e2inA3b8J3iGZxywjM+Csq1tqz hltEc7Q+E08AAwUIAL+15XH8bPbjNJdVyg2CMl10JNW2wWg2Q6qdljeaRqeR6zFus7EZTwtX sNzs5bP8y51PSUDJbeiy2RNCNKWFMndM22TZnk3GNG45nQd4OwYK0RZVrikalmJY5Q6m7Z16 4yrZgIXFdKj2t8F+x613/SJW1lIr9/bDp4U9tw0V1g3l2dFtD3p3ZrQ3hpoDtoK70ioIAjjH aIXIAcm3FGZFXy503DOA0KaTWwvOVdYCFLm3zWuSOmrX/GsEc7ovasOWwjPn878qVjbUKWwx Q4QkF4OhUV9zPtf9tDSAZ3x7QSwoKbCoRCZ/xbyTUPyQ1VvNy/mYrBcYlzHodsaqUDjHuW+I SQQYEQIACQUCRND5ggIbDAAKCRBy3lIGd+N/BCO8AJ9j1dWVQWxw/YdTbEyrRKOY8YZNwwCf afMAg8QvmOWnHx3wl8WslCaXaE8= Message-ID: <9dff7246-e02a-28ff-939f-6d47882b982f@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:01:21 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 17:01:24 -0000 On 12/1/19 9:46 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 9:58 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > >> On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:51 PM Kyle Evans wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> While we're in the process of deprecating stuff -- rc(4) [RISCom/8] >>> seems like a good candidate; any objections? >>> >>> It still uses spltty and appears to be completely broken at >>> compile-time, perhaps not updated past the ~'08 TTY revamp project? >>> >> >> Ditto all of the above for cy(4) as well. >> > > IIRC, I didn't remove cy years ago because bde asked me to hold off until > he could get it converted... You might ask him how that went... I actually removed cy(4) and then reverted it at bde's request. bde has patches for both sio(4) (now gone) and cy(4) that he has sent me before, but it just didn't bubble up in the priority list. :-/ -- John Baldwin From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 2 17:08:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774C91B082B for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:08:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47RWm42fkdz45Wk for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:08:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 58FF91B082A; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:08:36 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C2C1B0829 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:08:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47RWm41dtRz45Wh; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:08:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com (mail-qk1-f174.google.com [209.85.222.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FFE914842; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:08:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id i18so181768qkl.11; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 09:08:36 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVqEswtiNcYMJk8Od+D7gRKAOLqD1q6n0vS9CFUshXqnWzmDNVu C08oXH8rqgCNdk8VXeL5hbFV5RaR6a70LhEgqGA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy9UiJt3WMXpSvZWPjh4XQr7I0qhJDf/5iXZvyl8Mhcd33qH7zX4PW1lgHsSdP5pBljm2Y0d2LSTVzpjdZzCzg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:12cf:: with SMTP id e15mr4264932qkl.120.1575306515550; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 09:08:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9dff7246-e02a-28ff-939f-6d47882b982f@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <9dff7246-e02a-28ff-939f-6d47882b982f@FreeBSD.org> From: Kyle Evans Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:08:23 -0600 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: rc(4) deprecation To: John Baldwin Cc: Warner Losh , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 17:08:36 -0000 On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:01 AM John Baldwin wrote: > > On 12/1/19 9:46 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 9:58 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:51 PM Kyle Evans wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> While we're in the process of deprecating stuff -- rc(4) [RISCom/8] > >>> seems like a good candidate; any objections? > >>> > >>> It still uses spltty and appears to be completely broken at > >>> compile-time, perhaps not updated past the ~'08 TTY revamp project? > >>> > >> > >> Ditto all of the above for cy(4) as well. > >> > > > > IIRC, I didn't remove cy years ago because bde asked me to hold off until > > he could get it converted... You might ask him how that went... > I actually removed cy(4) and then reverted it at bde's request. bde has > patches for both sio(4) (now gone) and cy(4) that he has sent me before, > but it just didn't bubble up in the priority list. :-/ > I'm not all that hell-bent on removing either of them- if there are patches in the wild that people use that we can eventually commit, this is good with me. I'm working on an effort to break apart the tty lock that would require a small amount of change to said patches to make it compatible. It sounds like cy(4) is much further away from a candidate for removal than rc(4). Thanks, Kyle Evans From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 14:43:53 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7191B1186; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:43:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f42.google.com (mail-io1-f42.google.com [209.85.166.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S4Vc4g7dz4S9c; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:43:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f42.google.com with SMTP id i11so3912565ioi.12; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 06:43:52 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=nhJJR1dcj3svzazRtkC3TJd/7MXuKrkgT6Z4BKRPdas=; b=Onys3Oe3ay+uLWi59QYsjcM0ZeCMC0eeRuqR41+X6xACARZVQZ5epW6iih9+fZkBvL JsG3E5FTt9084oTdM9D79iS/AdAuPmeho6dPXwf5+M6WpZaJr7gQFimA74QqDyWHo5JI vTdq52wws/H22AgDzWrJE8h5Dx4KwQkYNKIiWg8IGEefHeLC9s+6TropNSANbwe1nlfa 13lQ7T/tG15IRY2rY8Y70rTYLW5R6lKgGCCuE9hSdunSNEvRA6HLE7fHaZPtpkQzoXJJ 0Rxnhx4QJwwYzDB9+OxiOz950kRw8/cdIve6RepanV79llyzwJnTWiJI0zL8zKWMexGf moJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX93ldOF9NiRw7cFqK0RCJxGe+07Ms54Mvk+zGg+4iL8ABDMhp3 ugim4y8UV08eU5AAy9KdJbDFD2YMIEnFw+U2B3oAGoyz X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwOAleyx3rY/N/HoF9TiqGaMHcuM49r1yxE7Bsx4oetLXWaiyZTul+GGwH4dr0YaAuopX7i9vpfZhMo5eK6OIs= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:3b06:: with SMTP id i6mr2424311ioa.185.1575384230466; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 06:43:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:57:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S4Vc4g7dz4S9c X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.20)[ip: (-5.84), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.15), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[42.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[42.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 14:43:53 -0000 The FreeBSD core team recently modernized and updated the Platform Tier documentation, available at https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/archs.html. I believe that arm64 as a platform is close to being Tier 1 and would like to determine what's still needed to get there. Many of the Tier 1 guarantees are already provided on arm64. and I won't copy them here. I've provided my comments on what I see as the gaps between the Tier 1 attributes and arm64's current state, and am very interested in hearing about anything I've missed. > Binary updates and source patches for Security Advisories and Errata > Notices will be provided for supported releases. We don't do this today, but have the ability to do so for arm64 server platforms. (Due to its design, freebsd-update does not work particularly well on devices with slow root filesystems such as SD cards.) > Changes to userland ABIs will generally include compatibility shims to > ensure correct operation of binaries compiled against any stable branch > where the platform is Tier 1. These shims might not be enabled in the > default install. If compatibility shims are not provided for an ABI > change, the lack of shims will be clearly documented in the release > notes. In the past we've used the fact that a platform is no Tier 1 to make ABI-breaking changes, like switching time_t from 32 to 64 bits. I see no issue guaranteeing we will not do that on arm64. > Changes to certain portions of the kernel ABI will include compatibility > shims to ensure correct operation of kernel modules compiled against the > oldest supported release on the branch. Note that not all parts of the > kernel ABI are protected. No concern here either - in practice I believe most of the issues that could arise here will be machine-independent and need to be addressed for all platforms. > Official binary packages for third party software will be provided by the > ports team. For embedded architectures, these packages may be cross-built > from a different architecture. We do this today, although on somewhat slow and unstable hardware. I expect faster arm64 package build machines to be added in the near future. > New features which are not inherently platform-specific will be fully > functional on all Tier 1 architectures. This introduces some additional commitments on those developing new features, but in practice I believe we already generally expect new functionality to work on arm64. > Tier 1 platforms should be fully documented. Basic operations will be > documented in the FreeBSD Handbook. Some Handbook updates are warranted for arm64, although this is true for existing Tier-1 architectures as well (e.g. documenting amd64 BIOS booting but not UEFI). > Build and test automation support either in the FreeBSD.org cluster or > some other location easily available for all developers. Embedded > platforms may substitute an emulator available in the FreeBSD.org cluster > for actual hardware. We build FreeBSD/arm64 in CI and smoke test on physical hardware today. More is needed (including adding a capable ref machine to the cluster) but I don't see any significant issues here. > Developers should be able to build packages on commonly available, > non-embedded Tier 1 systems. This can mean either native builds if > non-embedded systems are commonly available for the platform in question, > or it can mean cross-builds hosted on some other Tier 1 architecture. This is somewhat of a challenge today - there aren't many arm64 platforms readily available in a configuration most suited to developer use, such as a 4- or 8-core system with 16GB of RAM and SATA- or NVMe-connected storage. Smaller systems (e.g. Pine64) are readily available but not quite capable enough; larger systems (e.g. Marvell ThunderX and Ampere eMAG) are out of reach for typical developer use. User-mode QEMU cross-builds are a possibility, but this item is one that should resolve over time as new platforms become available. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 16:15:04 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B811B40E3; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:15:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f196.google.com (mail-il1-f196.google.com [209.85.166.196]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S6Wq5BPCz4Ymb; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:15:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f196.google.com with SMTP id b15so3653903ila.7; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:15:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uPCtsf9w+LgX6hhhEeVT98G2+uD2Nlq213gXlpK/RKE=; b=JpohL/qnvIenMBGex/V3JiiIUvN8lNIpqaw86JT+leZFKCaFDp5dBkgfIAhcomsQ6I BHozbwJ3swMqYsfUeUcBuJ1jv3cJFPPmf3I4puGukVQbU7GGER4XX3sdO+AwixvYuv+g 72msM7ufUpBvYVAlsBhLN5+MAS9XvHapWhf5C4NVisAuHzTG047SmBX+KxfyitmYY3Yt XaoQW31JCStbXEx0k1nw1i/Bk/4RI0i5S3ey1iJokcJJ0oCfO56jATA5cX+lmVLipJnw 0wWvmPWh3DXxAgndyvHT+JSMYb/5PB3+KfIOaDOAuUN9G8d64MAbjHnNBM2EvdmXd5a8 9d/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVYFW0rZjBVAyyURmv2GERFAsjt8ah6i8FIau1+0PgaNuNmWzlD AwYWEySQGmCeyDfXiGzRqU3J2FcZmLgtVYSumuNRyxaazVM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxIytEkvrcUYotw+PVQzWd/N7bB14xwg1+V2K92d/QZrqzNBREcO/9Pjtz4+tVx/7+Y7qJxEDkSXtF1p6TpYu4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:bf0a:: with SMTP id z10mr5468843ilh.115.1575389702298; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:15:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> In-Reply-To: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> From: Ed Maste Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 07:28:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Greg V Cc: freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S6Wq5BPCz4Ymb X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.196 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.03 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[196.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.03)[ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.15), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[196.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:15:04 -0000 On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 10:12, wrote: > > The Marvell/SolidRun MACCHIATObin is an affordable 4-core (Cortex A72) > with DDR4 (takes one full size DIMM), SATA, USB 3.0 and PCIe. > And most importantly, excellent firmware support (upstream EDK2+TrustedFirmware). > The PCIe is rather quirky (I really should make a proper blog post already) > but I have it working with a Radeon RX 480. > It can be a decent developer desktop if you're fine with > "2013 era ultrabook" levels of performance :D Yeah, it looks like a pretty good platform, if we can get past "quirky PCIe" to "buy x, y, z, install the image from https://..., and it will just work". I think the performance should be fine, stability and usability are more important. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 17:19:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D356B1B676F; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:19:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rysto32@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qv1-xf34.google.com (mail-qv1-xf34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S7yY5JNmz4fk0; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:19:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rysto32@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qv1-xf34.google.com with SMTP id p2so1836162qvo.10; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:19:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+r5OFJvChiGwzNRq/ShmwtXJbEg537fe7GtixqYkbE8=; b=mP/kLg9bNTQ2Ln/UCtfqXSJxHSlRJvswIY4soWnz3LRl7bw9XRes9PoOHpSv0zCuTw 8Yv0odynNaQzsnyNOCShQYK9yKgtjuruVdSf5RkfGjZdsMMKbLvC+fSAR6UL07y4jSTF jQOQhu46jvA1NbRh8dGCSxMtnAn5I6jMevF+aEoCK9uIcvBtMVb7E+5C6MCy1V67wsBi +e8LYuEYttISS3Za1oYoXRCTiG6t6IqefO9YlVrNSR5ZRR74SLsZV5YjfJqnXovjeHVJ thlNN35cPBJKr9+70WUV1r3fytvqE+DN0MCUgCqiMZEQH+RlBC0MtFBnMr2vXG6ljU7J KPLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+r5OFJvChiGwzNRq/ShmwtXJbEg537fe7GtixqYkbE8=; b=N8eX1SqgJ6IxeT9P1T06hMIlqXUPFq5sKPQCUzpn4VPwcvPgr5PZb3qHMle+MRaOjl D+PuK1C+bdsxD+2FFbL6VoWvRsABqN0HLBysvcbMB3RaIyajKO9w2mxn/I5GSimqwJYw /TqF03IOpkFDQAyNy+/WjueV9VuBuKMhTKMzDE+k8SeSkDcmdz5RnTT6hUwZYliZzWOF uUde8cVo5vkhYVUZjfPTqA3rIW6KTU+kI/ujpaEDk2/hQSKo7/odv3+bs1mv8dRyQm4X yVq+uvslSPmhqqMq0245G3A/Y/ceV61bmjS3bEKkmrIjX/o9N9Z9nLagu/q0hBl868Kx IAoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVJSCBkIneQYDUWj/bcuagtUNdd5tvDqEF1hIO4CX26/nVcnsPA +FXhF6nkWpYMe6t5QbmsQ7oxLrAUXTE9FETDim1X6A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZdjobZRvS2GTKqP3sbfUoW9xQMiXBT5MgeH4t0+ilJ/OmFtk8QfeRIOFxOTDY3xGfju/E5btSK8HOblKuHe8= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:8a93:: with SMTP id 19mr6234282qvv.157.1575393582371; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:19:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ryan Stone Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:19:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Ed Maste Cc: freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm , Hiroki Sato Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S7yY5JNmz4fk0 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 17:19:49 -0000 On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:44 AM Ed Maste wrote: > > New features which are not inherently platform-specific will be fully > > functional on all Tier 1 architectures. > > This introduces some additional commitments on those developing new > features, but in practice I believe we already generally expect new > functionality to work on arm64. For eBPF, Sato-san is working on a JIT compiler. Depending on the how it winds up being implemented, it may only support JIT'ing for amd64 (one possibility being floated is an LLVM-based implementation, in which case arm64 support is a lot easier). If arm64 has to use an interpreter to run eBPF code rather than JIT'ing it, is that acceptable for a tier-1 platform? From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 18:45:11 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DAC1B9395; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:45:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f194.google.com (mail-il1-f194.google.com [209.85.166.194]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S9s26cglz3Hvt; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:45:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f194.google.com with SMTP id z90so2091721ilc.8; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 10:45:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o7LOtveNNWBHq6VKmBhv0UXk8eYuyRlKArvVzdb1Xfo=; b=o0glSsduQXUgxqkZ9uTTgN63RAmD2f0upnenAOs9C6nvrvXNCn4sJfFr/gOQWnSq0Z 5gnXj9dTmkeZGYHPJMQvYrnI8ifkBPKWE3xkR+RZTiQ6es95R8Reh/TNtk6foU5/vy6p FOBhy0yD38cTWAj51FmBam7lFbrk8omjH3zTRnz869ua22S0YOli8XVtjUNnVZ8rXinR 6GgckkfgeI0PxpwfwUZ7nvoLGTKLcEhHl4ZcZxJzwvX1TI+5MjTbb/EadpH8RKt/5Jqn YpTYFSFb5bgabBKlWzPbhuLoLe2CCS3d8DWeHWxxqcqbGYaJeAQh6gjce50Q+uJwCZXg qtiA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWnRzIZGCVB0G1/PwJ6TuFS7lkevWklEciw3XIj13iv0MvQDGth P64AKV27IodtZmlC1lyWJmlSXWRH6sd3ySRkeupC/zXXWSs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzj+AtpkPsW1eXTJ3loHMrj25PHGFKIxikseJRz97ZDNKZjXR4lOT0a1+46XL28Pt7b2OTCvWJuGL54hEAIavQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4647:: with SMTP id t68mr5816935ila.18.1575398709659; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 10:45:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6d9f394c670a8426c61a3d075ffaf3e9@unrelenting.technology> In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:58:38 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Pete Wright Cc: Greg V , freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S9s26cglz3Hvt X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[194.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.17)[ip: (-0.69), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.15), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[194.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 18:45:11 -0000 On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 11:56, Pete Wright wrote: > > interesting timing in regards to using AWS for builds: > https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/coming-soon-graviton2-powered-general-purpose-compute-optimized-memory-optimized-ec2-instances/ > > if these perf numbers are real, this is something i would be interested > in for general purpose systems i deploy on AWS. Hardware availability implied in this announcement will help support tier 1, and I think also contributes to the desire for it to become tier 1 (to support a compelling cloud offering). From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Tue Dec 3 18:51:11 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D5B1B96AA; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:51:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-f41.google.com (mail-io1-f41.google.com [209.85.166.41]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47S9zy2MDcz3JPf; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 18:51:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-f41.google.com with SMTP id s2so4915989iog.10; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 10:51:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v++jeO3ACUFwELf+niFDWLYeKbgNV9Rq9Jx8DgFuwNI=; b=Swqi1EtRwD/eKOnnfC2oHtZDI1PH2Y16msMEDqYEzH+Nkwb9s7Q9tfNQYTy6WjIH6H NV7xoyi90myh7ahVD0TEAAMxZUOA53HoSA8oIqWdlVi0FC7u2+Sf8/jG9k+JF4p1Xxgg NAQ7mpKc4Qj/cK4MeWpwupZR0bVyXi+pG1M1C2+5gmwqRgiPL1XD3n5OBD8afSQeLPDe CgmbNkhOMMLiT+XLg1EJRzECxBxMfv3JujRQLWDUI2mnWEPeYYUZVvcnRHtBAVtRHfQy 9p/jQqgGeMknT/KKyLrIwnI9uVXRgo8QSLM8o3I2wS6U5Zgvo6OcQEyXXqAZDiG9kexl xSaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUzxVPbRdNeucL3ITqJ6PXs46UTsv54Gu/w41GxGY1axAY2LKhp Wv238TYi6zgaxyi28PBS+hy4vlSgdej+f3WuGZ6WaCuvoRY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqylUOtrAZX/cOj1MQGZ7j2XsAB4GIigpSbFZ6Vwf9vq0+llO1sF84AwZXxGqd/SU/+5ILzIO4K6762B18NOaxc= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c34b:: with SMTP id t72mr3367877iof.17.1575399068424; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 10:51:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:04:37 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Ryan Stone Cc: freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm , Hiroki Sato Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47S9zy2MDcz3JPf X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.87 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[41.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-1.87)[ip: (-4.24), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.15), asn: 15169(-1.94), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[41.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 18:51:11 -0000 On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 12:19, Ryan Stone wrote: > > For eBPF, Sato-san is working on a JIT compiler. Depending on the how > it winds up being implemented, it may only support JIT'ing for amd64 > (one possibility being floated is an LLVM-based implementation, in > which case arm64 support is a lot easier). If arm64 has to use an > interpreter to run eBPF code rather than JIT'ing it, is that > acceptable for a tier-1 platform? I don't think that it should be a requirement for tier 1. We could argue that the feature exists on all platforms, but performance optimizations exist on only a subset. That said, if we end up with a bespoke (non-LLVM) JIT I hope we'd also add arm64. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 4 07:30:06 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039E21CBF76; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 07:30:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47SVqd63Nzz4WL3; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 07:30:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (v-critter.freebsd.dk [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B4B11AF101; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 07:29:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xB47TvBZ017940 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Dec 2019 07:29:57 GMT (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id xB47TvKm017939; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 07:29:57 GMT (envelope-from phk) To: Ed Maste cc: freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <17937.1575444597.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 07:29:57 +0000 Message-ID: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47SVqd63Nzz4WL3 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.99 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 07:30:06 -0000 -------- In message , Ed Maste writes: >> Binary updates and source patches for Security Advisories and Errata >> Notices will be provided for supported releases. > >We don't do this today, but have the ability to do so for arm64 server >platforms. (Due to its design, freebsd-update does not work >particularly well on devices with slow root filesystems such as SD >cards.) I don't think storage-technology should be used as a discriminant here. First because it is quite trivial to plug in a quality USB SSD (WD passport for instance) and use that as root filesystem. Second, just because freebsd-update takes a day to run, doesn't mean that people would not want it. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= . From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 4 09:24:11 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E001CEBC9; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 09:24:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (fuz.su [IPv6:2001:41d0:8:e508::1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "amnesiac", Issuer "amnesiac" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47SYMG5QKPz4cn8; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 09:24:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: from fuz.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xB49O2N0082733 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:24:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz@fuz.su) Received: (from fuz@localhost) by fuz.su (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id xB49O2xF082732; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:24:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from fuz) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:24:02 +0100 From: Robert Clausecker To: freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 Message-ID: <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47SYMG5QKPz4cn8 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of fuz@fuz.su has no SPF policy when checking 2001:41d0:8:e508::1) smtp.mailfrom=fuz@fuz.su X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.06 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[fuz.su]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.65)[0.652,0]; IP_SCORE(0.66)[ipnet: 2001:41d0::/32(1.47), asn: 16276(1.83), country: FR(-0.00)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.84)[0.845,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:2001:41d0::/32, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 09:24:11 -0000 On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 07:29:57AM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Ed Maste writes: > >We don't do this today, but have the ability to do so for arm64 server > >platforms. (Due to its design, freebsd-update does not work > >particularly well on devices with slow root filesystems such as SD > >cards.) > > I don't think storage-technology should be used as a discriminant here. > > First because it is quite trivial to plug in a quality USB SSD (WD > passport for instance) and use that as root filesystem. > > Second, just because freebsd-update takes a day to run, doesn't mean > that people would not want it. Indeed. For example, on a Raspberry Pi 3B, it takes multiple days to build world as the build must be done single threaded due to a lack of RAM (building LLVM is the worst offender here). Getting it down to one day is already a huge quality of life improvement. Yours, Robert Clausecker -- () ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world /\ - against html email - against proprietary attachments From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 4 15:12:34 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58EF91C629A; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 15:12:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f175.google.com (mail-il1-f175.google.com [209.85.166.175]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47Sj5F3Nj7z3x8d; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 15:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f175.google.com with SMTP id b15so6978563ila.7; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 07:12:33 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wuXLtsMCRWyZB+j+m7AILi8FRKCPJBsyuC3QO1wJesI=; b=fFIX5hne8dCAFY0FUeue6fSM0QUEZr+92sKAv0yX66XEZvs4kVr/a+b6PfHfRHMtcx tuWxqJ14Z3XT7hD96vi7G/dWuvq+AaW5bFG+IZy1LdP9vLT8PqWK+cgIYzceKTx3JVg7 /Ym9Xg3EZTtlXQfF2FHoN+6l3xfisDmPJvJXpu8BpNbgnWoNnCGzOx1111yYYVS4/aoE ofRDlbZnn/rTtVTh2c4YnCgBx6zFRrQTkCFInSjfSslxJx06RsZw3ftSJKUxPye83vyG nAq8bA1BQoZWOY+m4H8gMLBqdzihddJM6wcgpu7IKICNPyQKA+DruzXHumAmWIhVZr2/ ZwHg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX4UfCytWIa+KOfzhMzoCjzXQGrewWjYcywXWCAXBvY89NeRUAg TsVb4/cY/kvk8u0k6pPwm1pYFyGugvWPYfGv6yOqav/m X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwfrFJk/vuA4glhMIz9mD1fv6KCMnv7p/IFSnJhbLWKzPHixQ+a+64ySUKF5XpJCzOt9zkEDdMoGDbYBhOpx74= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4647:: with SMTP id t68mr3765839ila.18.1575472352050; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 07:12:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Ed Maste Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 06:26:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: freebsd-arch , freebsd-arm Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47Sj5F3Nj7z3x8d X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.05 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[175.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.05)[ip: (-5.13), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.15), asn: 15169(-1.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[175.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 15:12:34 -0000 On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 02:30, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > -------- > In message , Ed Maste writes: > > >> Binary updates and source patches for Security Advisories and Errata > >> Notices will be provided for supported releases. > > > >We don't do this today, but have the ability to do so for arm64 server > >platforms. (Due to its design, freebsd-update does not work > >particularly well on devices with slow root filesystems such as SD > >cards.) > > I don't think storage-technology should be used as a discriminant here. > > First because it is quite trivial to plug in a quality USB SSD (WD > passport for instance) and use that as root filesystem. > > Second, just because freebsd-update takes a day to run, doesn't mean > that people would not want it. That's fair, although maybe I could have been more clear. My point is that arm64 server-class hardware like Ampere eMAG and Marvell ThunderX/ThunderX2 generally looks just like an x86 server from a storage perspective, and freebsd-update would work just as well as it does on x86. Devices do exist with slow SD card root filesystems. Running freebsd-update on them might take a very long time and might be a poor user experience. None of that implies that FreeBSD/arm64 cannot be Tier-1. From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Dec 4 15:17:17 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B351C6A87; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 15:17:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-f179.google.com (mail-il1-f179.google.com [209.85.166.179]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47SjBj0XQTz3xQQ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 15:17:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carpeddiem@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-f179.google.com with SMTP id z12so6968323iln.11; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 07:17:16 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BLWlJlzuaKYdGtQU8GYE9gI5LuzNbsxEZbZEfKJEb+s=; b=is5Z/sWjKYSGgjgc3JfkqS3TrEYEiFypTo71JNMWCyDs+W/zacpAtDY10PoaY6ihM4 vnoPtChtM3W6m8uQ4DPax6ZIjbVyR5VKrTX6qX/9IxEC9LhepC74okPZYJn6PUMuyi0l Pz4SXrZK3TGBoqo03gNTcqV/LMXz1FiOEXZRtE1l4IB/KY8SiRVHXG99jww10/L7/0E1 Mb1fQRVnSWGj7E6waRGWbYeQcUCkH3ArZBgGse5Zz6O1iUysyG4CLShcubyYWMT2lX4n QXRBZRJzFfiVsfhPd/Uth0UTAeGGd52wSXrSZQIiLkyB3i5/QkakKz2A05GXMV5lezwH ewSw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUm4reKgZHjVe5w+iRebF8h9HULgPqGjLLCRa0+d7A8XVP5dujo Zs8CUH618Z4V6QViJExuZ4oNyomUP14Jhs+GHFfIIjp5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxeC/jUc2ob6a7FLv0XWFLGXFvDFVACnoMPXl2ZmJn4qfg5Ba7jQb/N8ZWijwCYG1Yrrm4BJh51jfKfsQvt3a0= X-Received: by 2002:a92:2450:: with SMTP id k77mr3874333ilk.120.1575472635852; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 07:17:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17938.1575444597@critter.freebsd.dk> <20191204092402.GA82492@fuz.su> In-Reply-To: From: Ed Maste Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 06:30:45 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: Paul Mather Cc: Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arm , freebsd-arch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47SjBj0XQTz3xQQ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carpeddiem@gmail.com designates 209.85.166.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carpeddiem@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.36 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[179.166.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-2.36)[ip: (-6.69), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-3.15), asn: 15169(-1.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[179.166.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[emaste@freebsd.org,carpeddiem@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 15:17:17 -0000 On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 09:49, Paul Mather wrote: > > I'm running FreeBSD/arm64 12-STABLE on a Raspberry Pi 3 using a root-on-Z= FS setup. I've been using packaged base for quite some time, cross-buildin= g on FreeBSD/amd64. Every time I upgrade FreeBSD via "pkg upgrade" it seem= s to me that it does not take an inordinately long time. It takes longer t= han packaged base on a regular FreeBSD/amd64 server with spinning disk, but= not an excessive amount of time. It's certainly on the order of minutes, = not hours. Indeed, migrating to pkg base is the presumed solution for the "freebsd-update would be too slow on SD card root" issue. Perhaps you wouldn't mind writing up the steps you're using to cross-build and install updates?