From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 03:08:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641B63C6C2F for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:08:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfJF03n5nz4S2L for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:08:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.126]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9EE924E672; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:00:39 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:00:38 -0500 Cc: User Questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> To: Ralf Mardorf X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfJF03n5nz4S2L X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.24 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[172.58.140.126:received]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.34)[0.336]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.50)[-0.496]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.126:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.80)[0.801]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:08:21 -0000 > On Aug 29, 2020, at 2:10 PM, Ralf Mardorf = wrote: >=20 > On Sat, 2020-08-29 at 13:24 -0500, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> On 8/29/20 1:08 PM, doug@safeport.com wrote: >>> Wow Poly, Doug, Steve, this is a thread to save. I guess only guys = named=20 >>> Doug have used punched cards. Anyone else used paper tape?? The most=20= >>> inventive use of punched cards in my past, was when an Alogol system=20= >>> arrived without a terminal (or card punch) my boss, with a pocket = knife,=20 >>> "punched" the character set. Then until the terminal arrived, tested = the=20 >>> system by programming one card at a time into the card reader. The=20= >>> tedium was minimized by copious amounts of beer. >>=20 >> On a similar note: we had a group of ladies who were "typing" on = punch=20 >> card typing machines. No regular person (programmer) was allowed = access=20 >> to one. Then, after hours if you found bug and needed to make small=20= >> change, you were "editing" punch cards using point tipped razor to = cut=20 >> new holes, and were plugging holes with those rectangular pieces = punched=20 >> out of cards, found near card duplicator. "Doctored" like that card,=20= >> however, can damage card reader, so you put it through card = duplicator=20 >> (which is more robust device than card reader), compare duplicate to=20= >> make sure it is what you need, and then you can leave your modified=20= >> program to run during night. Otherwise you will have to wait till=20 >> morning when card punch ladies come to work. >=20 > Forwarding to a pen pal who was involved in electronics already before > the transistor was invented. >=20 > What? How aged are you folks? I'm from 1966 and when I started with > computers, I already used 5 =C2=BC floppy disks. >=20 > Am I a youngster? My time to confess: I=E2=80=99m 63, not much older than you. What I = described was in Russia, which was several (or multiple) years behind = the rest of the World. Most of technology was a =E2=80=9Creplica=E2=80=9D = what West had designed, developed, invented. To justify the word = =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D (not all) in previous phrase, I just have to give = example of what was created in Russia, not replicated from =E2=80=9Cbehind= the border=E2=80=9D development. That was BESM-6 (abbreviation from = =E2=80=9CFast Electronic Computing Machine=E2=80=9D in Russian) The = uniqueness of design I haven=E2=80=99t seen in other computers was: the = machine level command system was 3-address one. Namely, each machine = level command had 4 fields: 1. command 2. address of first operand 3. address of second operand 4. address where to put the result Here someone should correct me if there is, or rather was, machine like = that, as my knowledge of what existed back then is definitely = restricted. Three address system of machine level commands is wasteful on storage, = say, compared to wide spread 2 field commands (command + address of = operand). However, everything written and compiled with/for that system = of machine level commands is much cleaner, I almost said bug free. Take, = say, operation: add what is in storage address A to what is in storage = address B and put it into storage address C. BESM-6 has one machine = level command to do that. With single address command system this is = done by sequence of three commands: 1. put what is in storage address A to addition register 2. add what is in storage address B to what is in addition register 3. save addition register to address C All three commands must always be together, in that sequence, no matter = what optimization etc. to program is being done. Assembly code is way = less transparent in this case compared to 3 address command system, and = to write assembler and compiler to be clean, =E2=80=9Cbug free=E2=80=9D, = is way simpler task for 3 operand command system. And programming in = assembly language is way simpler. I really hope, someone mentions other machines with 3 address command = system, I really would like to know if the existed. Except BESM-6 which = was built of bipolar transistor blocks, and it predecessor BESM-4 build = on vacuum tubes. Valeri >=20 > I'm used to analog audio and video engineering, analog photography and > computers with 5 =C2=BC floppy disks. I just started programming = assembly > without a macro assembler, but after a relatively short time even a > macro assembler was available. >=20 > "Card reader" nowadays is for something else. >=20 > I used a hole puncher to write on both sides of a single sided 5 =C2=BC > floppy disk, but have never seen a punch card in reality. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 05:34:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C833CBB23 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:34:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from p-impout001.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net (p-impout001aa.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net [47.43.26.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfMT93HcSz4bcR for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:34:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from localhost ([96.28.177.163]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id CFyYk2vEi9GgiCFyYktgC1; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:33:58 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=Cb52G4jl c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:117 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:17 a=HpEJnUlJZJkA:10 a=kDE-tZP9w5REByJhpcwA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=a91rRdoBwgp5LorH:21 a=-RIkaU_dz4ca8fPp:21 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:33:21 +0000 From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKvAKFwvixypXUPZJoZ8RdTRHVjqTP1Vo78x4rbMwEVTJYSPIXT/8PdjFJ5hoTeCGzyrGFqg7qjz92L4AKYt6/i1CMIVTLbGm3nfwojUFwNfhcrgR+wL xV/VD1/DBknHCXayqxIUxB4ckzxTTTYvwYR7J/HpM1hhvlC/nqnX98u/xO+fYMyfu72Ee06M+pnMLQ== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfMT93HcSz4bcR X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mueller6722@twc.com designates 47.43.26.132 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mueller6722@twc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.02 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[twc.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[twc.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[twc.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.70)[0.701]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MISSING_MID(2.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:47.43.26.0/24]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.95)[0.955]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.17)[0.166]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:40294, ipnet:47.43.24.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[96.28.177.163:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:34:06 -0000 from Polytropon (excerpt): > Most multi-OS settings seem to work best with BIOS + MBR. > Boot selection can either happen using a PF key at system > startup, if it's more than one disk, or you have a separate > software solution, like GRUB or FreeBSD's boot manager, if > all systems are on one and the same disk. How is that? It seems to me that GPT would be practically the only way for multi-OS. Grub 2 can be used to select the partition to boot. Some or many OSes can not run on a logical partition, only a primary partition, using MBR scheme. And what if hard disk > 2 TB, or would that be 16 TB in the case of 4096-byte sectors? > With MBR, you can have up to 4 "DOS primary partitions", > i. e., slices. FreeBSD needs only one, other systems may > need one or more. If 4 isn't enough, you need to remove > one, and put an "DOS extended partition" in the free slot, > which then can hold "logical volumes inside a DOS extended > partition". This is typically called EBR. > The limitations of MBR are no longer valid with GPT: Any > new partition gets a new number, and if you want to have > 20 partitions, that's no problem - it's natively possible. > The problem could be systems not properly understanding > GPT layout, and if I remember correctly, FreeBSD's boot > manager does not support multiboot from GPT. > On systems that do not have BIOS or "legacy mode", if I > did understand everything correctly, MBR is not supported > unless a EFI partition has been prepared beforehand. > And in case of ... I won't name it to avoid trouble, > even that won't work - you need to enable a Compatibility > Support Module (if present!) and so on...; all this > because you "should" use UEFI + GPT. > It's actually quite complicated... ;-) > You can avoid all this for FreeBSD-only systems by not > using any partitioning at all - you just add labels (using > the disklabel / bsdlabel command). Note that only letters > 'a' to 'h' are possible (with exception of 'c'). > To summarize, you have the following usable (!) options: > a) BIOS + dedicated > b) BIOS + MBR > c) BIOS + GPT > d) UEFI + GPT > In case of MBR, FreeBSD gets one slice; in case of > GPT, FreeBSD gets as many partitions as it needs. > The partition types are also different for GPT and MBR, > and depending on the desired layout, the partitions you > need can change. > Within a slide*, you can create multiple partitions. The > common approach today is to have one big / and some swap. > The idea of "functional partitioning" typically suggests > a layout like this: slide? Did you mean slice? > ------------ device in /dev ----------- > dedicated MBR GPT > /boot - - ada0p1 > / ada0a ada0s1a ada0p2 > swap ada0b ada0s1b ada0p3 > /tmp ada0d ada0s1d ada0p4 > /var ada0e ada0s1e ada0p5 > /usr ada0f ada0s1f ada0p6 > /opt ada0g ada0s1g ada0p7 > /home ada0h ada0s1h ada0p8 > This is just a very simplified example. > Also remember that most other systems fail to understand > dedicated partitioning. The idea of "partitions within a > slice" comes from BSD coming from non-PC systems to the PC, > where MBR was required for multi-boot interoperability (to > a certain, often quite limited degree). With GPT, there are > plenty of types, so this is no longer needed. I run several versions of FreeBSD and NetBSD, also need to save partitions for Linux and Haiku. FreeBSD and NetBSD can't read each other's disklabel or bsdlabel-type subpartitions, and sub-partitioning a NetBSD slice with disklabel is very tricky, drives me crazy. GPT means I never have to deal with traditional BSD disklabels any more; I don't run OpenBSD or DragonFlyBSD. Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 06:43:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9200F3CD8DD for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:43:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfP0q5mT0z4g42 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:43:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BfP0j1xSJz2fjPg; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:43:00 -0700 Cc: User Questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> To: Valeri Galtsev X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfP0q5mT0z4g42 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info designates 71.177.216.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.93 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:71.177.216.148]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lafn.org: no valid DMARC record]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.933]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.62)[-0.617]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5650, ipnet:71.177.216.0/23, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:43:08 -0000 -- Doug > On 29 August 2020, at 20:00, Valeri Galtsev = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I really hope, someone mentions other machines with 3 address command = system, I really would like to know if the existed. Except BESM-6 which = was built of bipolar transistor blocks, and it predecessor BESM-4 build = on vacuum tubes. >=20 According to Wikipedia: Due to the large number of bits needed to encode the three registers of = a 3-operand instruction, RISC architectures that have 16-bit = instructions are invariably 2-operand designs, such as the Atmel AVR, TI = MSP430, and some versions of ARM Thumb. RISC architectures that have = 32-bit instructions are usually 3-operand designs, such as the ARM, = AVR32, MIPS, Power ISA, and SPARC architectures. I have no experience with any of those. -- Doug From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 06:58:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1093CE48E for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:58:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfPLW6hCKz4gyb for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:58:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id t7so2803800otp.0 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:58:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JX0sOIXBvnWUoPKemvPT2mkV1yoED3wtlfark48IbGM=; b=nPiQqREpq2msrjXy3aqYPIPLL9CsgLjJxavXonzHXPKUEvbDvAz+pBqX9MR2AyXlpY i0YArZaBs83iqGDo8GK7bSv1z3UKnp/cw6xhkqYesKEwv1oWbKL3ZFR9e0c1XbDqJqwY GcQWTPPtNas6NgZ6KCOO73NE0OnwqHLai3okSEzCIrp7Y7tI4N385WCHPDEdLG28BNe/ JZhQykdxjWYCFILHPXzwhSvU1hxqRf0Em4a+gqwZIHxFiY8fKmiqNMzjy50zFtgFNw1X ufcwXFtH8ZZD8dfvM8FrF2cdciVXC49khM0sEPxUYd1gyjdHTO7xQvx7y3WpCKUWT9+m 8j9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JX0sOIXBvnWUoPKemvPT2mkV1yoED3wtlfark48IbGM=; b=Np0ZSJYN/dwd5B4DW+/aXhAWhDIMN6awkMIFjcDUNj+ocYkYiPvLCkPyIwlxf3TLNN A2pGSdW35p/cYT+brN1Xxf8/Fl4fuCJOBrFfameCCuYS6fS6Qhl3Sl8tSqml+DYjGpef pg3o+ndFW8NI50OxK/sNkDI6xmCVP47LtHtresNQ7whoQNKIwqaGTSMSvl6XSKajD9xx l7xPC/cckGdbb5LEOSjiubAOnGfFkL0v/Z3b3sPrngheHKPeA/PeJSXEyE0p0nyXUoqP PxW+azl76BUQ0MUldfxgwoSxFu2LVCNp0AP/piqdB+4y7YL+HOBpaVVxgG98AhrAAq1g Pojg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530u/IfJATkAwY1b8QY3eOiKdY+rTDlVUyCSz12MW7UFa+LW4TQG 3iG3qPSvQXgz/K6ztwCXd4f3CLUxvO5Ca6ndgMM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwv1SG1rwZS3C3W8mhS8HCAUlSI8KGfsJEzJ9O5UrHc1ifudWBeauQ40gtdasGJXWvsr/rb9uzhwrhwtyVDmAQ= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2784:: with SMTP id c4mr4257544otb.30.1598770706559; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:58:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200826094948.333c67b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200829171622180444664@bob.proulx.com> In-Reply-To: <20200829171622180444664@bob.proulx.com> From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:57:48 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: diff is a little diff -- erent To: Bob Proulx Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfPLW6hCKz4gyb X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=nPiQqREp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mesanliturk@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::336 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mesanliturk@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.48 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.024]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.967]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::336:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.49)[-0.493]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:58:28 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 2:26 AM Bob Proulx wrote: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > > The trouble is the following : > > > > A company is making investment to develop a software . > > Assume It is based on FreeBSD . If that company uses FreeBSD , by the > > effect of GPL parts , the company should also > > supply sources of its own proprietary software . > > Except that is not a requirement of the GPL. > > > This will destroy the competitive advantage of the company and waste > > the investment on the software which is not an acceptable situation > > . Trouble caused by GPL is about such cases . > > Except that is not a requirement of the GPL. > > This has been discussed many times so I don't think I will detail the > arguments again. But I feel compelled to say something here or people > will read it and believe that it is true. > > You may ship your closed source proprietary program on a GPL licensed > Linux kernel and mostly GPL licensed userland of commands without > providing source for your propriety licensed program. No problem. > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > > I think my explanations were not very clear . There is NOT a rule in the GPL that a GPL based operating system is not allowed to run a closed source software as long as the closed source software does NOT use a GPL licensed part . The main point is that requirement . GPL is so aggressive that , if a closed source software is forking a GPL licensed part for its own operations , owner(s) of the GPL license are saying that the forker software is DEPENDING ON a GPL licensed software , therefore it SHOULD also be an open source software . It is necessary to study GPL license in sufficient detail with all of its implications . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 06:58:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4DF3CE4A5 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:58:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfPLy5dMtz4h1r for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:58:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfPLx1J0jzFmH8 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:58:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1598770729; bh=XiQEJwF3zByogoiEUg3SJgkUVBZSngaJZMDOBG4vAR4=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:From; b=Cm4rgDsyjD4gSjQLiB4iwLKdsPukMLVMZtCd23aercmZIQnnR/MXYvfUmARgm7Rx1 e8r2V1NXRxWXqJQyYM/SxcKSc1HsuKApC9a/yAXfcHF5aOsQCCJlkLvYOu7qM4aCHZ DRWBjFTQutOjQ6kTDBJK1K7CG28q/amoXkcpX+iY= X-Riseup-User-ID: DCA9669A35477B63BE295B297E06D2F6D38E2B65935A8B8D4450E923ABDF92D5 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BfPLw3GSKz8v6S for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 23:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-ID: <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfPLy5dMtz4h1r X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=Cm4rgDsy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.827]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.973]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 06:58:52 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:33:21 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: >Some or many OSes can not run on a logical partition, only a primary >partition, using MBR scheme. 4 primary or 3 primary + 1 extended partition per device aren't enough? >And what if hard disk > 2 TB 2 TB aren't enough for several operating systems, at least when storing data on different devices? At the moment I plan to migrate from analog to digital photography. I'm surprised about nowadays common immoderateness. There's no need to take 10 shots/second of a still life and to repeat it 20 times, to end up with 200 photos. IMO one shot should be enough. There's no need at all, to log the meal served in a restaurant by camera. I guess not many people really need a multi-boot with more than 3 or 4 operating systems, that require a primary partition and not many private persons really need to store more than 2 TB/disk. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 07:17:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723273CF261 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfPmm1XvSz4m4C for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:17:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfPmh2qfDzFgcR for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 00:17:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1598771860; bh=wiSzej6kyEmOTiyWaW68QzegI1JjHzyLnlyjo8tf/es=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=T6GBwhewpZyzu2ri7j0It+Bt7yCsNLR9Vx0HoJUZ8N8BT0vWgzQKAUSfB2d6pYo4S OW+ygnO2obTGubSvNucNoU9ODw+DhQ3loPv8WaA0A4lTf5969gzrzvpZtL1lN8eB3B iKTNHxR/T8vdYHP320ufjvzFRXMszhacVfdRtMMw= X-Riseup-User-ID: D4C550E8A4C5FD3978F5AB6E24E268A3DB65C72BDD1C5A1C6D48D0C4D8FF99E7 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BfPmg4mGMzJmgT for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 00:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:17:40 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-ID: <20200830091740.7cfd94cf@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfPmm1XvSz4m4C X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=T6GBwhew; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.45 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.05)[-1.051]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.79)[-0.794]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.008]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:17:49 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >I guess not many people really need a multi-boot with more than 3 or 4 >operating systems, that require a primary partition and not many >private persons really need to store more than 2 TB/disk. ^^ This should read "2 TB of data/disk" 2 TB are a lot and we could use 2 or more drives. I can't comment on server farms, but we probably waste a lot of resources to store selfie videos, showing people taking selfie photos. Maybe all the useful data stored by one or the other server farm could be stored even on a 1 TB drive. I suspect that most stored digital data nowadays is nothing but digital waste. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 07:26:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D72033A83DD for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000a8f6a81.e30510b13739b93d57572e8bd15e4699@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfPys1l9nz4qZY for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:26:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000a8f6a81.e30510b13739b93d57572e8bd15e4699@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1598772389; x=1601364389; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=pA50abGglhqO0H0sJwK71nyXdpqOcDHKZ6wJIn4es5c=; b=VlGPks7KfGuEPDwTXdNeM6NWTLBNcfsyafbes7mO/EYjPbAG5pUkVCK6qsoeQtFFqEsKiyNM+V8oW8b5gZJeT94odJcm4+JYyM9YsNmH7ZJeSt6TQQb/ISZM0iJnf2Mw4n5W+nc3UpdU+GhVDaSOzxRm0ab9Xl/pn5vJk5YTC9c= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMGE4ZjZhODEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com (r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.179.11]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:26:23 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r1.sg.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:26:23 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kCHjJ-000Am8-NY for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:26:21 +0100 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:26:21 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: diff is a little diff -- erent Message-Id: <20200830082621.b38ce63f5c97b580f843503a@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200826094948.333c67b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200829171622180444664@bob.proulx.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfPys1l9nz4qZY X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=VlGPks7K; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c2000a8f6a81.e30510b13739b93d57572e8bd15e4699@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c2000a8f6a81.e30510b13739b93d57572e8bd15e4699@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.79 / 15.00]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.027]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.06)[-0.060]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000a8f6a81.e30510b13739b93d57572e8bd15e4699@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000a8f6a81.e30510b13739b93d57572e8bd15e4699@email-od.com]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:26:29 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:57:48 +0300 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > There is NOT a rule in the GPL that a GPL based operating system is not > allowed to run a > closed source software as long as the closed source software does NOT use > a GPL licensed part . > > The main point is that requirement . Indeed the crux is modifying code released under GPL, if you do that then the modifications must be released under GPL even if the modifications are much larger than the original code. At least that's my understanding but when it matters always consult a specialist lawyer. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 07:30:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1543A3A8550 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:30:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfQ3H6Wm5z4qVy for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:30:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id b17so178696ilh.4 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 00:30:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=swneGdso/z7/iNIk0HZfGq5yOVUkEQVXVd2q3fHGxNU=; b=BsNoahpqdShHOXnpBzve27oDISlYZVnmYbs8VSYQPlNp0tOUpOdd2MajyXRN6shzAX /oafhVe8IwzzqfIICb7U3A3bjWUm+f7xXO/HO5m6SDFrrNQ8kn7/BjFhPXB2QiBF7igj nsDAreet5UxgH8wDay86p3waw0ohPs+Xbr+looGXPdPjyQlq0HhvDObFBQvZP1qihhFs 3G0+rRiufpORjUNUDaJ3NaJd7snnC0CA6gtqHLyxHW7sHU9kT8BzejB5gbRaJ/9K7OiJ gyvpkdc7toxMaYjvBFwszBcVYcFt8Vx3GRmehazaYNvjz80P7jCwxiVRyWVRi+riC0Uf OIhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=swneGdso/z7/iNIk0HZfGq5yOVUkEQVXVd2q3fHGxNU=; b=JDhRFD7LMhV3rPTF9RWBk0jkS7SgxfVis+o2mJa9wP5XX+EhgUejc4nTswTnb3L+pp RIcDB9aAjjuhFg9Cg46aFhg+6kfaEv/nsd4d4gaxbZ9PbTjothOQ9BXXhiVom4tHn+Jo n9wVyTwgennZFpSIZ9meSOkKfpp2BrsLjaVAoNIcF9ADqCYMR64Ci/DaKvWeMbaI97yv 6EoeXvf4LchF4WYyh0KZlNdEm6oBrxg1E1eY2iPuMcniOk660XUZaiAmXtbTYo5Jflkj XQ0yFWelv3KbE2yNYX+1pFD2nTUYpaJP6z9Rk9d/uMb4hlrzLYusEiHyLKnJ/oo6ajdh 4ApA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323/NQX2P5/H1qXZ37tGvO56C30BCE0ndesC+K27Fc6wt9X51U7 +OMQ7zbwhxACC/9tFLzpHyAs3lHr3lgNu6+g28o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJQfImOrg0OQoZNKBcr5KEEQZI9r19dtoaxwOy2aPXreM23ZphpymoroRmzNZNlMv+h8zcu+2LyqDoqI6UjdM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cbd0:: with SMTP id s16mr4921140ilq.187.1598772618269; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 00:30:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830091740.7cfd94cf@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200830091740.7cfd94cf@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:30:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfQ3H6Wm5z4qVy X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=BsNoahpq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::130 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.49 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::130:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.458]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:30:21 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:22 AM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >I guess not many people really need a multi-boot with more than 3 or 4 > >operating systems, that require a primary partition and not many > >private persons really need to store more than 2 TB/disk. > ^^ > This should read "2 TB > of data/disk" > > 2 TB are a lot and we could use 2 or more drives. > > I can't comment on server farms, but we probably waste a lot of > resources to store selfie videos, showing people taking selfie photos. > Maybe all the useful data stored by one or the other server farm could > be stored even on a 1 TB drive. I suspect that most stored digital data > nowadays is nothing but digital waste. > Waste is in the eye of the beholder. For example my kitchen trash is clearly a waste to me but to ConEd it is fuel to keep my lights on. Depends on what you have and why for example I tend to download a lot of videos of long train trips (looking out the front window) because the videos are quite hypnotic and thus good meditation/sleep aids, but watching the same video over and over again is not enough variety for the effect to work, same with ads if you watch them on youtube. Therefore I have over 1 TB of train videos (about 40 of them) and am always fighting to find more room for the next really cool one I find. Almost these are 4k @ 60 fps so they are not light on disk space. Professionally 2 TB would only hold about 6 months of EKG data for the patient load we have and the law requires us to keep them for 2 years. So 2 TB is quite common these days for storage needs. Especially seeing there some games that require 50 GB just to be installed. Split it over several OS's and the problem is obvious. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 07:37:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A373A86FF for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:37:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfQCJ0h4Cz4rJt for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:37:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id g128so3034141iof.11 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 00:37:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ogqnF4kDTgVrLrdpOSpbYqR+xWfW7wtcGOWz6/HAEP0=; b=L7aJUk9DnZRapsUuPdFYYoNKiqomhHV2rXsi3tLTJiC5TcHK69TKvypPMvMt+28li6 JGfamnY30M7kV7onlkgnhjKNqMs+3Z0mYBU12fyCWLn26OBfcMSZ42KXmb5v7BbIT4wM FvyQMsnSkVo3uJmcHFe6qUjl8OzI/MelLmpD031Edr5QRsjnc+UsEhBXbZV8WV2ZzSKB gX+pXRxUa+StQGBITBuBBqulqKshBG0ULsmwWIave0YnPmGxAaOssKjFshUV2F9cmJd6 98PCxAyTeoTG7UD7EMxSXzNDQkN2BwyIXKCYVeDPo35rZV7feoVJJo2AQbmnbQ8bWMFb ELfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ogqnF4kDTgVrLrdpOSpbYqR+xWfW7wtcGOWz6/HAEP0=; b=Y18KBAcgj96EySxGmZaZNCHrDWhcB5Y/aBlvfohZF1VP2IRrTy81qvX9GhmtxWl7RZ CIq+O7eXjfdbpKrkip4O2T9zqdm62F/ykHak7pLQ31O5FbNXsVccvxTXLWVbAO1JWbsg VhFBdqPtafbHgYVtqZhzMam1JOjH7N5bqFYo+iaNLe52nvRi/2N3AKQPqX+2H9sjf+jq 5WtQHIPMidfpiTm5aupYfQEF8mNkTFJIqgpcCkhInxCA11TBQD0uMlji1g5QDJRlh7NA EPbVxdZnuiCBayL3rzOel7eFD0olbasxd34uLcU30H+0rmif7bm5lugrr/id9pkwblcl Vuug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532zJpuKe7hO8swl2nYJV6SC32en8gEr74+pAylZEUe80SozsZzv PKvwR0DVglNhc7G8mwsfCADnoOXIj3Xhxz3wMZM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwnnVoAYuW46CS3jSZOAoZB2lPtwf1sinl/yydj2/6YuPMwqj98SE7Q3dxQjm0Y7ztNLSt1NYJjpB5f0ojmd9E= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:1313:: with SMTP id r19mr7545113jad.60.1598773033140; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 00:37:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830091740.7cfd94cf@archlinux> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:36:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfQCJ0h4Cz4rJt X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=L7aJUk9D; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.45)[-0.451]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:37:17 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:30 AM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:22 AM Ralf Mardorf > wrote: > >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> >I guess not many people really need a multi-boot with more than 3 or 4 >> >operating systems, that require a primary partition and not many >> >private persons really need to store more than 2 TB/disk. >> ^^ >> This should read "2 TB >> of data/disk" >> >> 2 TB are a lot and we could use 2 or more drives. >> >> I can't comment on server farms, but we probably waste a lot of >> resources to store selfie videos, showing people taking selfie photos. >> Maybe all the useful data stored by one or the other server farm could >> be stored even on a 1 TB drive. I suspect that most stored digital data >> nowadays is nothing but digital waste. >> > > Waste is in the eye of the beholder. For example my kitchen trash is > clearly a waste to me but to ConEd it is fuel to keep my lights on. > Depends on what you have and why for example I tend to download a lot of > videos of long train trips (looking out the front window) because the > videos are quite hypnotic and thus good meditation/sleep aids, but watching > the same video over and over again is not enough variety for the effect to > work, same with ads if you watch them on youtube. Therefore I have over 1 > TB of train videos (about 40 of them) and am always fighting to find more > room for the next really cool one I find. Almost these are 4k @ 60 fps so > they are not light on disk space. > > Professionally 2 TB would only hold about 6 months of EKG data for the > patient load we have and the law requires us to keep them for 2 years. > I should note the professional case is not a hypothetical either since running out of room in the partition to backup the DB for the above case is what triggered this thread (the OS that I left unnamed is centos and the DB is 65 GB so backing it up is fun [and yes triggered by the ISP I was complaining about a while ago being jerks]). > So 2 TB is quite common these days for storage needs. Especially seeing > there some games that require 50 GB just to be installed. > > Split it over several OS's and the problem is obvious. > > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 07:39:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87D03A9008 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000a8f8e1a.f7f26aa0778dd056eae98485f4ae078b@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfQFZ2Cv2z4r0n for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000a8f8e1a.f7f26aa0778dd056eae98485f4ae078b@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1598773154; x=1601365154; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=Ce6MFJLTQ4C4noyxXg/BqC8REkB6fQn9lAOi2TzDzuU=; b=BEPBrQNWtOvU1t7Som9G1aAcRt+uO26EuIBuzUpEiITprEQCq66SITXmCj26ASw9h+OERIVdxkcZ0nR9MfdhNjp9qzpTYnmDk9sLGeviOUthEweDxvj11J1W2gCunvRA6jN6Z3HDdGdC1FTYwXUb5oIPoXFmfgYqNO3p6tmYzmk= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMGE4ZjhlMWEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:39:13 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:39:11 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kCHvg-000Asg-S0; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:39:08 +0100 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:39:08 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfQFZ2Cv2z4r0n X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=BEPBrQNW; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c2000a8f8e1a.f7f26aa0778dd056eae98485f4ae078b@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c2000a8f8e1a.f7f26aa0778dd056eae98485f4ae078b@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.022]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.80)[-0.803]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000a8f8e1a.f7f26aa0778dd056eae98485f4ae078b@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000a8f8e1a.f7f26aa0778dd056eae98485f4ae078b@email-od.com]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 07:39:14 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > There's no need to take 10 shots/second of a still life and to repeat > it 20 times, to end up with 200 photos. No there isn't, taking many shots and selecting the best has of course long been standard practice for professional photographers digital cameras and modern memory sizes just make it possible to carry this to extremes. The thing is data storage is cheap and plentiful these days, the old habits of keeping filesystems clean are long since past relevance. There's probably a couple of terabytes of data on my NAS that may never be looked at again (old films for example) but it costs almost nothing to keep it while it would cost time and decision making to clean it up and there's plenty of capacity on the NAS for years to come - I have better things to do with my time and decision making capacity, by the time the capacity is getting to be an issue I'll be wanting to replace the drives anyway and bigger ones will be cheap (they already are). -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 08:05:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3BD3A9E43 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:05:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oo1-xc32.google.com (mail-oo1-xc32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfQqv1sPnz4sNH for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:05:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oo1-xc32.google.com with SMTP id m25so737248oou.0 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 01:05:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cIg+P+7XLiZpbIx5ZBEkJ/KGQLtJbhxel18qbHmV28c=; b=kjwzEhq0TCgHS0aHM4zocwN47aClMMvmkz4M7PNGX8SOw5PvwUO9hHChVcXSL/JCGH tMpQjs0glL6SJc7R/PWeb9KdTreg3h9rH3J7Lqlj8xwVsfJ3AqyygPuMExcoTxBp6zbD xLNVPYY6WjsrEtFaLf5N+DaEQkjyG472l0gHb2R/h54JyYVpPy82yZxYTDBqY+TfegTh +qNm4P5u/8URD8fcsSvw8aKW2mOZtd62pGrDRPxdpH2Pzep/SXRMvHw/YZV25hQMSzp2 OgUvq13q9QPqia7Tkkh2D4B6QYjJjbQnFcqbnXdX8qQBZOwBmCPQdy+3KcAUqx/eHZTg t4Yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cIg+P+7XLiZpbIx5ZBEkJ/KGQLtJbhxel18qbHmV28c=; b=YXrioRngrVkm1wO1FL/173/iac1C0uVRTZDy1U7wB+wzYEwFxX4ti4AyTZWjjWZxnc sSpzGIs3YF2gNnOhaOqr69v+QMuEB8olPc7wf6rGHYZARGb8knfW/XuFKikOdJqxUeaK pDqJcF98f5UqmNh9kUjvonp6FSouKCqdyw5ju/ZtbDbfLh4vCOpUpB2w6epo7C3jIX7f if9ocRe6M/u2dqTKEp+I9Ok8bDn2bKVnONjlV02Phr8e+fj9PcYZa9yIcqGieLtcoDsC Leqnm90HNJrrSv7j4hbagAs60qBNQZ6PSryAOP6RlbHAGY3tCUMgxXXB9SyohUicWdWV wUwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531JjFhe5039vMliGIsDAj2ZVtG6q72zEbkIhTZKa/oWhC6zYErU MJ8V9Q4RXpfVMXQ9XMwgBjvOi+EIIo1AD1NQPEBoSxdAV2g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxk0BggsG+2KPfUGNKlTDqi7BOcpk1E1uo/mUW/GJQHN0o0+deFOXc/SkCD1GlIkFRAdFLQDI89UfLYG0Za6Fg= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:9622:: with SMTP id q31mr4443988ooi.78.1598774729386; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 01:05:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200826094948.333c67b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200829171622180444664@bob.proulx.com> <20200830082621.b38ce63f5c97b580f843503a@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200830082621.b38ce63f5c97b580f843503a@sohara.org> From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:04:52 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: diff is a little diff -- erent To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfQqv1sPnz4sNH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=kjwzEhq0; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mesanliturk@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mesanliturk@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::c32:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.14)[-1.139]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:05:32 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 10:26 AM Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:57:48 +0300 > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > > > There is NOT a rule in the GPL that a GPL based operating system is no= t > > allowed to run a > > closed source software as long as the closed source software does NOT > use > > a GPL licensed part . > > > > The main point is that requirement . > > Indeed the crux is modifying code released under GPL, if you do > that then the modifications must be released under GPL even if the > modifications are much larger than the original code. At least that's my > understanding but when it matters always consult a specialist lawyer. > > -- > Steve O'Hara-Smith > _______________________________________________ > > You are right . Please see " https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.18/process/license-rules.html Linux kernel licensing rules The Linux Kernel is provided under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 only (GPL-2.0), as provided in LICENSES/preferred/GPL-2.0, with an explicit syscall exception described in LICENSES/exceptions/Linux-syscall-note, as described in the COPYING file. This documentation file provides a description of how each source file should be annotated to make its license clear and unambiguous. It doesn=E2= =80=99t replace the Kernel=E2=80=99s license. " and please notice " with an explicit syscall exception described in LICENSES/exceptions/Linux-syscall-note " The above exception is allowing to run closed source software in the Linux operating system . The routines are used ( when a syscall is issued ) by the operating system , not the issue generated program , even in that case closed source program is depending on a GPL licensed part . If there is not any exception to the GPL license usage like the above mentioned , the closed source program should be open sourced . For the FreeBSD case : If there are GPL parts in the base system , no one can use ( FreeBSD operating system base ) as a part of any proprietary ( closed source ) system which is not an acceptable situation for companies attempting to produce a commercial product depending on FreeBSD base system . This means it is likely that they will not need to support the FreeBSD project . Money is not raining on to commercial companies like water rains . ( I am NOT affiliated into ANY commercial company or activity . Only it is necessary to think how they are operating in their environment . ) Mehmet Erol Sanliturk From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 08:31:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633BB3AABD3 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:31:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000a8fe2b6.ffa7f6a236bb88c27321b0e4a4f16b9f@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfRPd6Dlbz4vDq for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:31:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c2000a8fe2b6.ffa7f6a236bb88c27321b0e4a4f16b9f@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1598776278; x=1601368278; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=2HAhZIuGnir3Neg/mEP3eOcqJXbq0OwDzQEx4gcb8b0=; b=gnii3PeJqxnQVaUw8dVQH22HfZkQGQjgzWZwlkleFMmNMQxHGMIm+1kx0FU2NASbuZDOJycZf5QjMw8IbQe5ZxulF2fworuNqpY2NXeWW0vYG72eTU5GVwsIcRqoeFPKpe05l2glYxWuFH4KMxXGKZ2uXo9AvYrZahkJVKr12vA= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMjAwMGE4ZmUyYjYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 04:31:14 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 04:31:12 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.94 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kCIk3-000BJc-AC; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:31:11 +0100 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:31:11 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: diff is a little diff -- erent Message-Id: <20200830093111.f01752b7958f39a8d8d6ed98@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20200826094948.333c67b0.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200829171622180444664@bob.proulx.com> <20200830082621.b38ce63f5c97b580f843503a@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfRPd6Dlbz4vDq X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=gnii3PeJ; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c2000a8fe2b6.ffa7f6a236bb88c27321b0e4a4f16b9f@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c2000a8fe2b6.ffa7f6a236bb88c27321b0e4a4f16b9f@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.64 / 15.00]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.889]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000a8fe2b6.ffa7f6a236bb88c27321b0e4a4f16b9f@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c2000a8fe2b6.ffa7f6a236bb88c27321b0e4a4f16b9f@email-od.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.031]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.025]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[142.0.176.198:from]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:31:18 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:04:52 +0300 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > If there are GPL parts in the base system , no one can use ( FreeBSD > operating system base ) as a part of > any proprietary ( closed source ) system which is not an acceptable > situation for companies attempting to produce a commercial product > depending on FreeBSD base system . Or indeed succeeding in doing so, my current employer is one such a previous employer was another. Neither are small companies. > This means it is likely that they will not need to support the FreeBSD > project . But they do, in both cases by employing committers and other developers, contributing fixes to the core FreeBSD code, sending people to conferences to talk and of course financial contributions of one sort or another. All of these activities are of direct benefit to any company that depends on the FreeBSD codebase. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 09:12:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EFC3AC02B for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:12:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfSKX3jFNz3TKL for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:12:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BfSKW4HGpz2fjVL; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 02:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: <20200829202753.443f19ae4b9bce24b9161871@sohara.org> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 02:12:47 -0700 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200829202753.443f19ae4b9bce24b9161871@sohara.org> To: Steve O'Hara-Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfSKX3jFNz3TKL X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info designates 71.177.216.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.47 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.978]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:71.177.216.148]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lafn.org: no valid DMARC record]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.09)[-1.093]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5650, ipnet:71.177.216.0/23, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=kDsy=CI=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:12:49 -0000 -- Doug > On 29 August 2020, at 12:27, Steve O'Hara-Smith = wrote: >=20 > I'm from 59, I used punched cards and paper tape on an IBM-1130 = for > my start in computing, then went on to teletypes and a DG Eclipse = before > encountering one of the first TRS-80s in the UK (I said "Nice keyboard > where's the computer"). Then I went to college and met an IBM-370. I = didn't > meet floppies until after college when I worked on the Torch - if = anyone > remembers it CPN was my idea and Dave Oliver made it good. >=20 I started wiring boards to program an analog computer. Shortly after = that, the college computer center had a stand along printer, IBM 407 = accounting machine. You programmed it using a very large plug board and = lots of wires. Two of us figured out how to make it solve 10 = simultaneous linear equations and actually got it to work. We did have = some help from our IBM maintenance man who showd us how to avoid the = clutch burning out. Once he verified that it worked, he took lots of = pictures of the board from different angles so you could see all the = wires and took it back to IBM. =20 Later we used paper tape (5 level) on a PDP-11/45 which only had an 8 = level reader and punch. We had to send tape to the communications = center and receive it from them. The tape came folded in boxes. I had = to build some aluminum blocks with fairly complex angles to securely = hold 5 level tape in the 8 level reader and punch. However, if you took = the used tape, which was normally thrown away and cut it at each of the = folds and then taped them into circles interconnected, you had a = wonderful chain that was really neat on a Christmas tree. We did that = for several years. Somewhere I have pictures of one of the trees. I also got sent to a micro computer programming class using the KIM-1. = A complete waste of my time, but interesting. The KIM had a = pizoelectric crystal buzzer on it. In the class, someone asked the = instructor if it could be programmed to play music. The instructor was = adamant it would only produce one note. However, as a ham, I had used = crystals for years and you can pull the frequency with capacitors or = inductors. I figured that could be emulated at audio frequencies. I = stayed up the entire night programming it to pulse the beeper with a = single clock pulse at the frequency I wanted to produce. It worked. By = the time the class started, I could make 3 part harmony and went in a = bit early and had it playing some simple Christmas carols when the other = arrived. The instructor was not pleased. -- Doug From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 10:31:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E323AD9F4 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfV4S01pJz3Xmm for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:31:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Subject: Even more OT (was Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning)) From: @lbutlr In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 04:18:46 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <703D410C-48D1-4111-A29D-F07EC1B1008D@kreme.com> References: To: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfV4S01pJz3Xmm X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.68 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.932]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.948]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.40)[-0.401]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:31:37 -0000 On 28 Aug 2020, at 23:19, Doug Hardie wrote: > Interestingly enough, OSX has recently gone to multiple partitions. = In this=20 Not exactly. macOS (n=C3=A9e OS X) boot drives have a single partition = formatted as APFS and then have multiple APFS volumes inside that = partition. For example, this is my boot drive: /dev/disk0 (internal, physical): #: TYPE NAME SIZE = IDENTIFIER 0: GUID_partition_scheme *1.0 TB disk0 1: EFI =E2=81=A8EFI=E2=81=A9 = 314.6 MB disk0s1 2: Apple_APFS =E2=81=A8Container disk1=E2=81=A9 = 1.0 TB disk0s2 That the boot drive with one APFS partition on disk0s2 /dev/disk1 (synthesized): #: TYPE NAME SIZE = IDENTIFIER 0: APFS Container Scheme - +1.0 TB disk1 Physical Store disk0s2 And there is where that partition is mapped to disk1 1: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8Avalon - Data=E2=81=A9 = 599.7 GB disk1s1 2: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8Preboot=E2=81=A9 = 437.5 MB disk1s2 3: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8Recovery=E2=81=A9 = 1.3 GB disk1s3 4: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8VM=E2=81=A9 = 5.4 GB disk1s4 5: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8Avalon=E2=81=A9 = 15.0 GB disk1s5 6: APFS Snapshot =E2=81=A8com.apple.os.update-...=E2=81=A9 = 15.0 GB disk1s5s1 7: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8Mordred - Data=E2=81=A9 = 16.4 GB disk1s7 8: APFS Volume =E2=81=A8Mordred 11.0 GB = disk1s8 Volumes are not the same as partitions, for one thing they do not = reserve space for themselves (they CAN, it appears, but they do not by = default). Every volume on my boot drive has the same 326Gi of available = free space. Second, it is trivial to add and remove volumes (as you can = see with the APFS Snapshot volume). There are other advantages, but they start to blur the lines between = what is a volume feature and what is an APFS container feature. Avalon and Mordred are the System volumes containing the base OS = (Mordred is a clean install of the previous OS). The OS itself can "fold" directories on different volumes into one = directory, but if this is available to user I've not found it. If I = could, I would do that with the home folder on Mordred - Data so I would = not need to duplicate any files between the volumes. --=20 "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?" "I think so, Brain, but should we use dishwashing liquid or cooking oil?" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 10:31:37 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0524D3ADBF1 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:31:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Received: from mail.covisp.net (mail.covisp.net [65.121.55.42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfV4S01mNz3XkW for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:31:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kremels@kreme.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: @lbutlr In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 04:18:48 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfV4S01mNz3XkW X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kremels@kreme.com designates 65.121.55.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kremels@kreme.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.933]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MISSING_MIME_VERSION(2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[kreme.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.949]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.40)[-0.404]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:209, ipnet:65.112.0.0/12, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[65.121.55.42:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:31:37 -0000 On 28 Aug 2020, at 21:08, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: > Also why are partitioned need at all? (both currently and = historically) They are not needed now, and I don't think they provide any benefit, = really. Sure, you can do a multiple OS setup on a single drive with = partitions, but this is quite risky if Windows is involved which is the = main reason people want to do this. It's better to have separated = physical drives. Historically they were quite important because partitions could fail = without the disk failing, and restoring a partition is obviously much = faster than restoring a whole drive. That's not much of a reason now, if = there's some hardware issue with a drive, you throw it out and replace = it as drives do not cost thousands of dollars. (Or at least you take it = out of the role of booting and maybe throw it into a backup rotation). --=20 The other cats just think he's a tosser. --Neil Gaiman From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 13:09:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38693BA51B for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:09:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfYb41gqGz3g6B for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:09:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.126]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 537964E668; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:09:51 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:09:49 -0500 Cc: FreeBSD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <40C4967F-19E2-4815-ABD2-7539C5AE8A79@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: To: "@lbutlr" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfYb41gqGz3g6B X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.83 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[172.58.140.126:received]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.18)[-0.185]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.126:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.094]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.49)[-0.494]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:09:53 -0000 > On Aug 30, 2020, at 5:18 AM, @lbutlr wrote: >=20 > On 28 Aug 2020, at 21:08, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: >> Also why are partitioned need at all? (both currently and = historically) >=20 > They are not needed now, and I don't think they provide any benefit, = really. Sure, you can do a multiple OS setup on a single drive with = partitions, but this is quite risky if Windows is involved which is the = main reason people want to do this. It's better to have separated = physical drives. >=20 > Historically they were quite important because partitions could fail = without the disk failing, Would you mind to elaborate how specifically partition could fail = without the disk failing. Valeri > and restoring a partition is obviously much faster than restoring a = whole drive. That's not much of a reason now, if there's some hardware = issue with a drive, you throw it out and replace it as drives do not = cost thousands of dollars. (Or at least you take it out of the role of = booting and maybe throw it into a backup rotation). >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > The other cats just think he's a tosser. --Neil Gaiman >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 14:35:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92FF3BCFD2 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:35:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfbTf07HQz42GY for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:35:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.126]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27C724E6B8; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:35:17 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:35:15 -0500 Cc: User Questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> To: Doug Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfbTf07HQz42GY X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.15 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[172.58.140.126:received]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.27)[0.273]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.22)[-0.216]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.126:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.51)[-0.507]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:35:18 -0000 > On Aug 29, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Valeri Galtsev = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > My time to confess: I=E2=80=99m 63, not much older than you. What I = described was in Russia, which was several (or multiple) years behind = the rest of the World. Most of technology was a =E2=80=9Creplica=E2=80=9D = what West had designed, developed, invented. To justify the word = =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D (not all) in previous phrase, I just have to give = example of what was created in Russia, not replicated from =E2=80=9Cbehind= the border=E2=80=9D development. That was BESM-6 (abbreviation from = =E2=80=9CFast Electronic Computing Machine=E2=80=9D in Russian) The = uniqueness of design I haven=E2=80=99t seen in other computers was: the = machine level command system was 3-address one. Namely, each machine = level command had 4 fields: >=20 > 1. command > 2. address of first operand > 3. address of second operand > 4. address where to put the result >=20 > Here someone should correct me if there is, or rather was, machine = like that, as my knowledge of what existed back then is definitely = restricted. >=20 > Three address system of machine level commands is wasteful on storage, = say, compared to wide spread 2 field commands (command + address of = operand). However, everything written and compiled with/for that system = of machine level commands is much cleaner, I almost said bug free. Take, = say, operation: add what is in storage address A to what is in storage = address B and put it into storage address C. BESM-6 has one machine = level command to do that. With single address command system this is = done by sequence of three commands: >=20 > 1. put what is in storage address A to addition register > 2. add what is in storage address B to what is in addition register > 3. save addition register to address C >=20 > All three commands must always be together, in that sequence, no = matter what optimization etc. to program is being done. Assembly code is = way less transparent in this case compared to 3 address command system, = and to write assembler and compiler to be clean, =E2=80=9Cbug free=E2=80=9D= , is way simpler task for 3 operand command system. And programming in = assembly language is way simpler. >=20 > I really hope, someone mentions other machines with 3 address command = system, I really would like to know if the existed. Except BESM-6 which = was built of bipolar transistor blocks, and it predecessor BESM-4 build = on vacuum tubes. >=20 > Valeri >=20 > On Aug 30, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Doug Hardie wrote: >=20 >=20 > -- Doug >=20 >> On 29 August 2020, at 20:00, Valeri Galtsev = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> I really hope, someone mentions other machines with 3 address command = system, I really would like to know if the existed. Except BESM-6 which = was built of bipolar transistor blocks, and it predecessor BESM-4 build = on vacuum tubes. >>=20 >=20 > According to Wikipedia: >=20 > Due to the large number of bits needed to encode the three registers = of a 3-operand instruction, RISC architectures that have 16-bit = instructions are invariably 2-operand designs, such as the Atmel AVR, TI = MSP430, and some versions of ARM Thumb. RISC architectures that have = 32-bit instructions are usually 3-operand designs, such as the ARM, = AVR32, MIPS, Power ISA, and SPARC architectures. >=20 > I have no experience with any of those. >=20 Thank you, Doug. You induced my refreshing of memory, and also showed = that I didn=E2=80=99t describe clear enough that BESM-6 instruction set. = I have my post above for convenience. That BESM-6 machine has = instruction set with three operands, and all of three operands can be = addresses in memory. But in general 3 operand instruction set can have = only one or two operands as memory addresses, the rest can be registers. = I looked on wikipedia (I assume, the following is what you referred to): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_set_architecture and of all 3-oprand instruction sets it was only one: CISC by IBM that = affors all three operands be adresses in memory (alas, reference to it = given on wikipedia doesn=E2=80=99t seem to exist). Of cource, having an advantage of being really clear and transparent = with, very simple assembly code etc, 3-operand with all 3 operands as = memory addresses machine instruction set has obvious disadvanate: it = needs a lot of memory for program. Another aspect that was of interest for me was: that BESM-6 was purely = Russian design (as opposed to multitude =E2=80=9Creplicated=E2=80=9D = designs developed by Western world Russia had). I checked all 3 operand = instruction sets, and all of them are of later development. BESM-6 (the = latest of BESM-1,=E2=80=A6 series, the oldest dated 1952) was of as = early as 1968. And it survived in production for over 20 years. The 3 = operand instruction sets from that wikipedia page are: ARM - 1985 TI MSP430 -200x (later than 2000) ARV32 - 2017 MIPS - 1985 Power ISA - 2006 SPARC - 1986 IBM CISC - 2000 (the only one with 3 addresses as operands) I know from friends who worked in that institution that produced BESM-6 = that that was unique design of their institution development. I am just = trying to satisfy my own curiosity, whether their machine istruction set = with all three operands (two operands and result actually) addressed in = memory, thus producing machine code with single machine command per each = operation no matter what it is, if that was the first machine = instruction set of that sort. I know that the fact that I can not find = earlier analogues doesn=E2=80=99t mean they didn=E2=80=99t exist. So, if = anybody knows examples of machine instruction set with 3 operands all 3 = as memory addresses, used/developed ealier than 1968, I would really = appreciate if you let me know. I=E2=80=99m just curious. Thanks. Valeri > -- Doug >=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 15:14:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626C23BE607 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:14:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfcMG1m5Kz44MM for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:14:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.112.48]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N0X4c-1kZJiL2ic0-00wSVO; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:14:45 +0200 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:14:45 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Thomas Mueller" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200830171445.cc63924f.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <202008301509.07UF9Q7N001905@r56.edvax.de> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <202008301509.07UF9Q7N001905@r56.edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:hLdM+XsP4pikXZPSOhgL2CfcwrHsUUVpzL1tTpl448NwaF2MNze C37fONT7ER697bB04W0wfNmU28E0mKOY+esp25sXehFp+LSbPpEHRI6T6pXoZIep2G75ZBn OD2dtR4fJBeCOOsOvAU/6lUTYT3+PDymWBfMN/t15rhE1R34m9+fxuDASr8CQ/74M8xYOdh 0OJoihLRkPQimlFhukjLA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:LLxrFAvnY3c=:7bdVsR25jZQf3GV/sESYa9 +YQ+lUIejmhorVn55hMVm7KxkYbZe3DyVJ2Qe+J2ert+IGUGd737ucvw4bG4V/tzsYDP/mZks cSIeAD1sMY7gtWJm+jvj9ZprKeMniPvaKBj9Z7q1/kJ0APXiN43R32CE66az4nCL1cekrbRSU 4GkyevuKLePD37boXmuZ7BURbzqqTaWXRjyYn+ULeJJZn7kDmuM7U3oce2aReGJrr7K8T6D2k dPehesiVB4eQTPXTvclmvR2xr7uZx0+itCM59woTJ1g/Ghw6LY914blbPxYuS0Jtjsr3d7qpe /4+HKG8BYBUR30iRNwsyw1Fg0eaIBRUj+Jx/XKEboBhVmajW3yD69cYiRf7Q9iA/pgfy39FnA W8dbgksrWk42viXaEroVRxLhriN/WVxdmx3JJNULy28Gyw2I6B0ntzBXjyzV7MRJdwG+ZlBgU C/Y1b3tCW6TosNdC7YfzfCIPDTbno0/eRf85EKWvIk/UDqDxZRF1COtUsGESlQGmW3Pgp+onj Z14DiYQuigAkxt3U6ePYJu4Q+xyq7ffn62jr3MfTtwXTE+BakF267RIQV03RK46q/IRnPUIiJ 8zJoEmnRtQ2qLwvgu5oJ54rgmQNyWAdKtwh0AnVd03m2ZenfadjfeDMWrQ6ed+DfAoVg9Loub fjvSnG1P6UG3hjWQ9eJMYMQAf/lWDErM9Kxm/vCZ5LBSlpZr/+kn96I37QrtD/qxPEbFoAxoq gDaHWxGpaDB8JX+8yPwRroX5w2bDo1pryab8GZ8d+NidTAQpCjjq0ECqPooRyZB4F3BvHp86s PUBN6p/TNSUY5RXc8Ex8jJy6X9h1PVxeTC2pYS4gqTEaVxwgdzD4QgA/EVrmYEe6oPAPtsY X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfcMG1m5Kz44MM X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.89 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[twc.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.112.48:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.28)[0.277]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.33)[0.330]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.887]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:14:51 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 05:33:21 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: > from Polytropon (excerpt): > > > Most multi-OS settings seem to work best with BIOS + MBR. > > Boot selection can either happen using a PF key at system > > startup, if it's more than one disk, or you have a separate > > software solution, like GRUB or FreeBSD's boot manager, if > > all systems are on one and the same disk. > > How is that? It seems to me that GPT would be practically the > only way for multi-OS. > Grub 2 can be used to select the partition to boot. Correct. > Some or many OSes can not run on a logical partition, only > a primary partition, using MBR scheme. That is a restriction that, if I remember correctly, does not apply to Linux. > And what if hard disk > 2 TB, or would that be 16 TB in the > case of 4096-byte sectors? Yes, that is definitely a special case (which will become the common case in the future). > > Within a slide*, you can create multiple partitions. The > > common approach today is to have one big / and some swap. > > The idea of "functional partitioning" typically suggests > > a layout like this: > > slide? Did you mean slice? Good catch - that was a typical "'d' next to 'c' typo". :-) > I run several versions of FreeBSD and NetBSD, also need to save > partitions for Linux and Haiku. > > FreeBSD and NetBSD can't read each other's disklabel or > bsdlabel-type subpartitions, and sub-partitioning a NetBSD slice > with disklabel is very tricky, drives me crazy. > > GPT means I never have to deal with traditional BSD disklabels > any more; I don't run OpenBSD or DragonFlyBSD. Regarding configuration and number of partitions, GPT is surely much more convenient than MBR. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 15:21:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77B63BE86A for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:21:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfcW01FDjz4559 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:21:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.112.48]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MmkfQ-1kuqlV07y2-00jtxz; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:27 +0200 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:26 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lAhxhTv5A8crbyUfsYqSvqkNsIgUy7FJU+8uK3N6eXXvBv549LJ D6DsrsH2u8+59H7wd+F4Zzqdsyx/9mHMzSmuPMNo5KkyMIT9CodIThyrH+0uLF4ABa5djpd nyL0fsvgP+waHajMwbivpfqt050P8XclawGCanpKtr2rQm6GtpHsDcJQom38mQyFrybOAul V92Z42RgV7DyrFE9rL2GA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:4ECK0hsyST8=:4K+QJFd1ytQv3XxzGexSGA PKAcQiFtHUBn1NodMMmFFKv9+lUcm0IwFHnHduiVvX1nMEZvd1MD9iAYEL97xJVI30avxjZpC 8OyqD+Y4mU6h+1ZTGHmRr88Lk6TdbmCwg6KEdkCUOva1CFdhSyT0sxxfb1JyMDtG6w7oIBG3Z ddeL5n0/RSpYQsnoB5kIFdT25wAVhdZNvdLpQp/UT+m+XHMvxCEYY02LdZWqGUTDnDROohvZV Oa2WHukMmXDEz/PdQBtHFzMUHycUGeSbFYAy1VP7kXq87Wd2hKHIOZboX2HaKjzUtHMC/b7df AuDp/jTNytUhLPfEqCMTqPAgPG5tm4Jnl88Yz3KBVZYrtpmvTwKpalcDC9uquyJE6ukirgejG 1sM+JDL7m9E69HgaUmFTn4mP2xicijmsW5sSbz8xE/qJx2aNCjXi7ebnY5eLSYsKgb6Gbk5v9 V9HAgl3oQ+9TXsEZV2ELiv41kRzfJ3pw5FG59hHsdVCUrXtdzTzymqSSEIpS7IlrcAHitJfWB LbzWsTp2sPiijZRj5Noc00vvRjGGtlbRMhP5nY2FGJfU3N6zmwO98WnzoClfnYcw+U54Nj/gL ASs14C+DAuE1gmfQGy8Ew5xWDSJsGHWdwQGSkFc+ks7cOP+1hxZZGG8ViS/R2fHYz9hVKwYTl tmd2o/hrZxEOIEksTNYPPHYGv/wb+Z/zPaDbysikkWBjr7zOtyS/WOdQxSOJl9Yz4FarV2ztd OUm2gI6NbrU37v8GfUB8VQ/DiBn/Bn7piiVJ8h7Sd+Vglq7aQXc/DBNgzY/aW+NSpJNf18zOs 6rU2A2dVzUjyeM7nKjX9hhUDNKD17JRkwMEEmA/dLqlh2QJfFfGudbtcRbGZ8wvTFeDkXCB X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfcW01FDjz4559 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.31 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.112.48:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.00)[-0.005]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.28)[0.275]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.64)[0.637]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:21:33 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:39:08 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200 > Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > There's no need to take 10 shots/second of a still life and to repeat > > it 20 times, to end up with 200 photos. > > No there isn't, taking many shots and selecting the best has of > course long been standard practice for professional photographers digital > cameras and modern memory sizes just make it possible to carry this to > extremes. Rule: "Better have 100 photos and select 10 good ones, instead of having only 10 photos which are all crap." ;-) In digital photography, this is much more simple and convenient than in the "developing times", especially as you can delete the 90 photos not needed anymore - yes, they _can_ be deleted. But with cheap storage options available for few $, it seems to have become more common to just move the unneeded photos to a "secondary location", "Just in case!", which sometimes will never happen... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 15:39:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353583BF163 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:39:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bfcvt1851z45Yv for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:39:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.112.48]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M5PVb-1kDEuA48Gb-001S3W; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:39:28 +0200 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:39:25 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "@lbutlr" Cc: FreeBSD Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200830173925.3d340cfb.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:no7PXZM2txqdWyGCSvAZ5iPfo9PXTV26yN49GqERt3RTFIObKPu kiiEoX5t4Y9OUnRoBwwDczePMBZx+6rmbDmpRGJk5zzRuCf6D8yRFs+a0slWxuZjM72jcmI tmZF/FCSIYz1xFzCIK9g322qt4qGmvObnBp5G2JxkcJkZ+Uj+AHUu98DJgFXKJCIxZsK//G aH4sURmhQ4W8/Zhuaf3mQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:eapAv4in2no=:B+XFj0B5lqrqPyTh4rX/AP uMsmQi9rBFtxa62Nwp1Xh1zZWR/dDhfdzJH5q5Gt5Kj5A4No5g9jD+5uqcc+XGSk0Q9b/JxPS bDs7zqw18nizetb3mA6qhi0cPtKR133+BrjnmhaC9y17r77ZmdcqIR270JO3eThIFjaWoMQpO DzzETIP+dFtzv9/QwuQI32l+sLzP4EfJbxfxpfxvYXIVKjxnfUZry+ZW40kp+3+/m567mOXar smJ5h1LCScm7R3mF+Wgayb37mL1PNVuJuPTf00HEc6XlPXnkaUsCknCxo0YHnXXl8ojjNdF+z CmoAEv24NJFdbP6QYgHOjlgdVjCDJ45OVn44zmPce39DN+TWYlfKB7q8HsECGw5+TCmN72Nrm 7bYqwxVrReVq59beOFl91R5CPIqloFJJsUGkw835iqQV9V3nkPceybmt9nZZRcj7kNy4zF0N4 r4ZpsK2AbyJL6a/V4cBsIBgwXHFTS95gfNuo0YnZn1ghR0HTCb7tiTuRpBqtuM2aZs66rVJKS KII3DpjJpMQwnqoqUklj3l90BA0ADrhAV0O/Zsmjcmn0M26k65LLiCfTI3I5NDa7JpLt6Xf7f nVWvONarNnPbY9qw5GWhArM5nwWaTLpXWs2u6xkY0NNJZrLBspvMKXVlVhomaQu0tnPPvejHk inC5VvK+Myp7nXNI7Ox0aVuv2JBfRtFIuSUPGU9uDO0pC/s0dqAw9Fi08eaGvHjKY/n4x5JaU Qd90dCCE7rqXerW0Zg2Ix/42akwik/UnP1KyOFOpY4lpDS/kF2ty9bOopexuaFXigaJGglcmz zAuaPNqIXGFplOrd75Nji2X5iJPbryO4Sj41BqOfEaPOMdm4/PphvLADAtwve8WkxeXDrf1 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bfcvt1851z45Yv X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.44 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.112.48:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.08)[-0.076]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.42)[0.425]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.69)[0.694]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.74:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:39:39 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 04:18:48 -0600, @lbutlr wrote: > On 28 Aug 2020, at 21:08, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Also why are partitioned need at all? (both currently and historically) > > They are not needed now, and I don't think they provide any benefit, really. This is actually what "dedicated" means: no MBR, no GPT, just labels. And you are correct: Only _one_ label (i. e., one partition which is, in fact, no partition / slice) is required: the 'a' partition, defining it as a boot partition. For a single-OS install of FreeBSD this is possible. Now you might say: what about swap? No separate swap partition? You can use memory-backed or file-backed swap. Yes, all this has several restrictions and limitations, but from a purely technical point of view, it's absolutely possible. By the way, I do the same on "fill & stack" data disks: They only get one UFS filesystem directly to the device, no partitioning at all: "newfs /dev/da0" - and it can be used. Sure, it does not boot, but data disks _don't_ boot. Can they be read in "Windows"? No, but FreeBSD data disks aren't read outside of FreeBSD. In this special case, only /dev/da0c (which equals /dev/da0) is created, and you can mount it as "mount -t ufs /dev/da0 /mnt". > Sure, you can do a multiple OS setup on a single drive with > partitions, but this is quite risky if Windows is involved which > is the main reason people want to do this. It's better to have > separated physical drives. That's often not as easy, especially when you use a laptop. But in such cases, it's sometimes more secure to use external USB (usually USB-C for better speed), to keep your regular workstation out of risk (at least try to). The problem with multiple systems on one disk is that they might not be able to boot from anything than a slice (a "DOS primary partition"), and there can only be up to 4 of them. Let's say you also need a boot manager - 1 slice gone, 3 remaining. One for FreeBSD, one for Linux, one for "Windows". If you need more, for example, if you want to have a dedicated data exchange partition or "shared /home", you will probably see "DOS extended partitions" and the "logical volumes" inside them as a possible solution. That might work for data, or subsequently mounted partitions (for example, if you have Linux and want to separate /usr, /var, /tmp, and such), but in most cases, those cannot hold a OS to _boot_ from, not because it wouldn't be possible to tell GRUB to load from that device (GRUB doesn't care, it just transfers control), but because the OS might expect to be run from a _primary_ partition and simply refuse to boot. Also note that in traditional DOS partitioning, only one of the 4 partitions can be marked "active", which indicates a bootable partition, and BIOS systems will tend to boot from the first one they find. Furthermore, this approach is quite static and does not easily allow to switch systems - that's where GRUB (or any other suitable boot manager for that matter) is the most useful part. > Historically they were quite important because partitions could > fail without the disk failing, and restoring a partition is > obviously much faster than restoring a whole drive. That is the reason why the programs dump and restore exist: They process data partition-wise (not at file level), so any VFS overhead can be avoided. Linear reads and writes are also an advantage if your backup media is sequencial access, such as tape. Backups were quite common, partially automated, scheduled, and required, so in case of severe drive problems, you loaded a new disk pack and restored from yesterday's tape backup. You are right - this is _not_ what people do today. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 17:14:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0897F3C2507 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:14:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bfg1T1l7dz4Dm0 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:14:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bfg1R2ByszFpBZ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:14:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1598807675; bh=/zBqoIEFivUWY7PMtSS/UT5EV2kk+a40IwTvgvxD5ao=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=sW7L8CYMIDr0H+ggTgThsxdefVA1kybfor60kOzZzTq9WGkaLf/TDhrHsOFwVIjXH AJDY9hNwtawFyOllPbgW1O9+WlgpEKQSQlnM4RzQHprBUsylEuZvrAQ9C5uk1Teapf 9RGCIiOb0N+BY+Gh/B5wfX81Tb0s2M11pD3ohp/0= X-Riseup-User-ID: 94844293CD3388E07A09673C236EA2498A48B135ED5D6E1EBB934AE0262DB61D Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Bfg1Q2vZyzJmgW; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:14:32 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Polytropon Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-ID: <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bfg1T1l7dz4Dm0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=sW7L8CYM; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.98 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.015]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.34)[-1.337]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:14:38 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:26 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:39:08 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200 >> Ralf Mardorf wrote: >> =20 >> > There's no need to take 10 shots/second of a still life and to >> > repeat it 20 times, to end up with 200 photos. =20 >>=20 >> No there isn't, taking many shots and selecting the best has >> of course long been standard practice for professional photographers >> digital cameras and modern memory sizes just make it possible to >> carry this to extremes. =20 > >Rule: "Better have 100 photos and select 10 good ones, instead >of having only 10 photos which are all crap." ;-) The averaged 36 photos and then replacing the film cartridge gave holiday as well as professional photographers the opportunity to think. They not necessarily used this opportunity, let alone that some used very long films for way more than 36 photos. However, my impression is that nowadays almost all photos are shot planless, without thinking, while in the past at least some holiday, as well as professional photos were more thoughtfully shot. Btw. I'll only _try_ to replace my not that good, but quite usable, but aged and dusty analog 35 mm camera, a Canon AE-1 Program. I don't know, if a middle-rate digital camera can replace it. My target isn't necessarily replacing the analog camera. I want to get a camera to make stop motion films and it would be nice, if I could replace the analog camera, too. I consider to buy a Sony =CE=B16400 kit 16-50 mm, since I can't spend more money. Does somebody know how good or bad this and similar APS-C cameras are, especially compared to analog reflex cameras, such as the Canon? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 18:11:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D8E3C38FB for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:11:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfhHV2qcvz4HVL for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:11:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.112.48]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MplsZ-1kxJD23cc9-00qEfD; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:11:45 +0200 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:11:45 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200830201145.7e9e82f9.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Nz8CgtV/YDeXgaBSVcOdjClt4pHtFMD9OApTpPaBmcro3twRHi6 sMxYSBAy9W3oEL8Lo06deyccID5y/J4s6pIzBqvAztID7OSyo36Ur5ucOzG8v4PIiRPijX+ dmC6y9Wdl2aDnc+qkUdOofgTX++n5ntq1vzxk7TcNCLIsEgg81QcK53xbwXe910M42N/FvV l6LGCEgZqE+LTS7TbKUag== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:b21OlOaRDJM=:+iYMYWzLvKHbXpdtK1qDvQ 4xJFu+ZqXrv0CqrEcGTISN+LU0V7IU14NBb80ouXFzTfk7X0hIepZ8jNEImOFWFoeRQqLJZrG L4nBjwi2BUbKqN/lU4/Vct0sH2Rs0Pk5gHKTsO2v1MkxiN65bxDhn8rlH6gqXToOTO2vgrB3s J1Lc6QE1jvsDVa8cggB1ytqhSbwoNDMQoa+JX/StVY2aJ7gAj9iHEsnJ8y43MoOoE/K+FlbTY MdMZ6nf+B4o8E+yXdl0fs9dkAptf1+RZyOM0eOYv5jlaxbVFH0KzKyULj45U4lQE795gV7Lc1 6+azqAMBOQtrLRSAFnNW6qqoJM/aLXJXDkm18MTmN6kG3wK+gjBYzP7ygpMHYKesOe1yMP5YJ ZUHJX40d1e1KZy7jqYhlkvN0KIRHGrxSRRsdia9Q00ze+llGae1/3cJ7N1edWmqaC6dZLU0qE c1TQRgA6E5ZB3tFc13P3f2iYR/uN5AfJgVoBTHitBeb01ox5naZct/+UFOSsUcY/vb5krhtev jij554XRD9W6OMdF9n0y5S/zJqefMmbscktAktTc8R9h6h4JiyNVbv6UstAJzs8HLMifdzwbp C+IFf1JubKjUNjeY3/UJ/4WkvVIeyxc14uaZdOKtW4K0pdJjt+wfT+yXEJwgmFi7tkOQlTiVm 23YlCnRF5eyYheb0NmV0QOGhstGfOQ8DK8NZrT5zsGPh2deLpOX8xEBFK6ZJKCxRcGB3Rys4/ VCEspkQaB+ODuohG6bVOk6YW1iNCEMUmZZcC3QWG/sqTVse/YI0mowAsK1evdBHi7z56dnGut Ip9TSuRlnrMpIMtPEcmkz1dd4Xwrf9aNmJJB552GHhBhb28P/95TFsygmoIjrr0b69JpijB X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfhHV2qcvz4HVL X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.58 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.24)[-0.238]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.112.48:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.16)[-0.160]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.58)[0.579]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:11:51 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:14:32 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:26 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > >On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:39:08 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200 > >> Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >> > >> > There's no need to take 10 shots/second of a still life and to > >> > repeat it 20 times, to end up with 200 photos. > >> > >> No there isn't, taking many shots and selecting the best has > >> of course long been standard practice for professional photographers > >> digital cameras and modern memory sizes just make it possible to > >> carry this to extremes. > > > >Rule: "Better have 100 photos and select 10 good ones, instead > >of having only 10 photos which are all crap." ;-) > > The averaged 36 photos and then replacing the film cartridge gave > holiday as well as professional photographers the opportunity to think. Maybe I should have used better words: There actually is a difference between photo and snapshot ("Foto" und "Knipsen" in German). Photos involve thinking and mastering your tools (camera settings, and if you develop yourself, the whole process involved in that). You commonly thing about light, counterlight, maybe picture compisition, angle, height, perspective, zoom, and so on. Snapshots don't require that: they're just mere "point & click" actions with an option (!) of having a good photo among 100 snapshots. :-) > Btw. I'll only _try_ to replace my not that good, but quite usable, but > aged and dusty analog 35 mm camera, a Canon AE-1 Program. Oh... Canon EOS-50 and Senit 12sb ("Zenith 12xp") with a few very special add-ons still here. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 18:24:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186683C44D5 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:24:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfhYx0JGpz4JbJ for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:24:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id h11so1927689ilj.11 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:24:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6Ud5MMese8XlrUCE/7jpI/E5aJbv/6suzsR69m0kIR4=; b=nwpMPu1OAeRJbknWaYePC5JV4nHQLRdiN0MtEDfmDgFmqJWAk1yyN5JNoUeKL4kVmO bjRiergpNP2yjYLc3tKUNWejSoDWE9/odqL+es8zvFHq4XAYPUrIWBeZn1X4gbjvRqd9 6sbJ2/CvCJyoblsuI305XOTXl0YQv0avRaP/W14P/FGh4YafcLbdzx9JeQdjnoXHuZkR rM2rgc5DVd+QjCE/PYECIbC4zLRqOJ1J2JUCQbtWhQqh4U4EdlxA3wCL6ObLbjQSVOaG UlwZOnFB1YltF2COShLr4+WQe//lcqB32GCu0+uPCyhe1ZGdHs7tHIpf3wsy64M9q9j7 fJDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6Ud5MMese8XlrUCE/7jpI/E5aJbv/6suzsR69m0kIR4=; b=G4Y6o0ThwAnWD44bPq9PvYNh6WlMa9rvAX4vZGIvofxiNi6KTTDfLZF9GjX7yzgBGT 1Z6IU6ESRtbbeIS7hxvIjR2QtYPXx09hN3PNmhKXjrdIKG6DvDRzFxHGAByqLOa5rLVJ wQM3esLhBwpDX5E3q6REft7E20s/fK+4p+CNBtTd82KhG5/NKAqQYuhgzkj4DzuOoKhj mi1xJAVO3EfddjKqh7Yv+qzNEBysU7HoJ5qJNh0+e1R9mEuIY/SruJmJ7BnFMHAPmXXI klT6JXhikwIqVsKMCePdpC7yJVZ6TQtI6Yz1OYbzNWa+47XYgvBf4wuZukvktoU/7oFU XvUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530lTnhNy5NcAyIKkpN7kamsOpVn/eGx9ykPDqwzXaszasqlJl6h dw6J7i6CYGlNcAjtGDoV0LYVyW50yxO+tueMgcAqkglBdls= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDhWbRl8b3kFVVAwROwGvmf5eaY+Dt7Sd48TyeNQbysXszrHSyc+ZsXyMXsenT6P+GFCcBygzJRQ1Hf0XWShg= X-Received: by 2002:a92:740b:: with SMTP id p11mr6120446ilc.119.1598811859904; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:24:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:23:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List , Polytropon X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfhYx0JGpz4JbJ X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=nwpMPu1O; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.016]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::129:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.82)[-0.817]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:24:22 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:14 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:26 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > > >Rule: "Better have 100 photos and select 10 good ones, instead > >of having only 10 photos which are all crap." ;-) > > The averaged 36 photos and then replacing the film cartridge gave > holiday as well as professional photographers the opportunity to think. > They not necessarily used this opportunity, let alone that some used > very long films for way more than 36 photos. > Completely incorrect about professional photography (at least after autowinders became available): 1. In photoshoots (modeling or otherwise) once they got the rough pose/layout they wanted they would be shooting away as fast the autowinder would move puring roll after roll of film to get that "perfect" shot (watch any video of photoshoots before digital came in but after autowinding) 2. As a student reporter I covered the anti-war protests on the first night of first Gulf War in San Francisco with hand cranked my 35mm Cannon (no idea of the model number) and in the course of the night used 4 rolls 500 ASA film and one roll of 1000 ASA film (which I bought off a professional news photographer). I noticed that every single one of the professional news photographers was shooting at least one roll of a scene that I took one (or maybe) two snapshots off due to the lack of film. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 19:15:58 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692CF3C5A4E for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:15:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfjjT346xz4MYF for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:15:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.142.219]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C427D4E6A6; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:15:50 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Valeri Galtsev In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:15:49 -0500 Cc: Ralf Mardorf , FreeBSD Mailing List , Polytropon Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1C1D6F50-D629-4475-A408-2B5FDF4F1022@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> To: Aryeh Friedman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfjjT346xz4MYF X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.06 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.25)[0.246]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.50)[-0.497]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.142.219:received]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.21)[0.208]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:15:58 -0000 > On Aug 30, 2020, at 1:23 PM, Aryeh Friedman = wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:14 PM Ralf Mardorf > wrote: >=20 >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:26 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >>>=20 >>> Rule: "Better have 100 photos and select 10 good ones, instead >>> of having only 10 photos which are all crap." ;-) >>=20 >> The averaged 36 photos and then replacing the film cartridge gave >> holiday as well as professional photographers the opportunity to = think. >> They not necessarily used this opportunity, let alone that some used >> very long films for way more than 36 photos. >>=20 >=20 > Completely incorrect about professional photography (at least after > autowinders became available): >=20 I know loose cannon will unleash on me, but I still can not hold it. My observation about professionals (in any profession, not just a = photography) is: they do posses excellent set of skills, and they = simultaneously recognize that there are other professionals in this same = field who posselearningss some skills they don=E2=80=99t. Doesn=E2=80=99t = mean someone is better or worse. Anybody declaring in one way or another = he/she is the one with correct/best professional skills immediately sets = the flag for me as quite likely not actually being an expert. That is akin well known stages of learning: 1. I don=E2=80=99t know anything 2. I know something 3. I know everything 4. I know quite a lot but not everything 5. I know a lot, and I know what I know and what I don=E2=80=99t know The last (5) is equivalent of an expert (I am just replacing the word = =E2=80=9Cprofessional=E2=80=9D by what it implies), whereas (3) though = quite likely to declare being an expert, most likely is not. Those are my humble observations. Of a person never considering oneself = an expert, though often knowing what I know and what I don=E2=80=99t. Valeri > 1. In photoshoots (modeling or otherwise) once they got the rough > pose/layout they wanted they would be shooting away as fast the = autowinder > would move puring roll after roll of film to get that "perfect" shot = (watch > any video of photoshoots before digital came in but after autowinding) >=20 > 2. As a student reporter I covered the anti-war protests on the first = night > of first Gulf War in San Francisco with hand cranked my 35mm Cannon = (no > idea of the model number) and in the course of the night used 4 rolls = 500 > ASA film and one roll of 1000 ASA film (which I bought off a = professional > news photographer). I noticed that every single one of the = professional > news photographers was shooting at least one roll of a scene that I = took > one (or maybe) two snapshots off due to the lack of film. > --=20 > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 19:34:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558623C6935 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:34:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bfk6P3g89z4NkR for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:34:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id g13so3894311ioo.9 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:34:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t0Kb0E7CimxFV3vNbbNeidyUbEtoZNH/dKXoflwRl/Y=; b=Tg+MBGwlJBREPLAHbZYGJfLRrfEwum3Fh8X/xtK1Vt5IKy3dvS4lETiMuE3sava/Gl bUn7f+TpdfH/YkZrxBO0ELqQ5Vob4dl6ACasUqtRWxyxxcCKqkkFQSTx0wlClIwlOIzf UIGCCOY0h9IXnHU6uLJs8KKyrbs7gpzd/AlI1P1zMKBUTMK5JUrz4HZA1pyXASBG1K3d a3r1S1Pscn9Pql3pdYoVnIz+nM1wo6o/IU/LAjVjkICRhYYbU/YGN8YJNcmYfr6AgIoz xKb9kBpi4SFYl0Ytv03ISZsuVhtnXS+r8gPgrGfffCA/SHCRe8hrCg9pBDylmHAcWI/m 7vPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t0Kb0E7CimxFV3vNbbNeidyUbEtoZNH/dKXoflwRl/Y=; b=P4m5QYdYROzme9PnHXIpINRN0bm5wXZ2Eo6iLoq8BiJ3QFRbAF84R1NYpWlmWr/xfR Rsg/u1gSLkIzGIj7LYHqe4F6lNG77qhcWuSuXOPfELZyxrPUkx1CRL7859ndcwvqmK4Q fBf9A1WuniM5lnyIkolB9yzYU3IDPhejjzmypTIQS7JKc//VS48NWo1dC4rmjS2lwsOX cY/hjk/SSlCEwXhtwnHoSYXe4jMzkKgiYmqSOVbrLTRt8GVfhZo96IvzBT5Ie6uFOJ98 f+rFPCP2ndaS/VPqEtVXQnYm1rkNSVB59ehYCjCTYAw/X39c+UYrTbA5ADXzgBFcQUbU vf2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532AGQvbpCv/d2lc53VDCyIRnFoQqTXj0Awwl1hGljXMr5Ts9K41 I48WffpPgbgH555rvSlDdB/5HfzYNr9j397yn/0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTof3nqtcOOmcPqWw83hiWdvxxmkXBx0i+/ds3pUG59eV+53Go8rowTKAy6HfP6+ujnfg2lWb1WV3uJCmYNxg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:1313:: with SMTP id r19mr9098824jad.60.1598816044618; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:34:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> <1C1D6F50-D629-4475-A408-2B5FDF4F1022@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <1C1D6F50-D629-4475-A408-2B5FDF4F1022@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:33:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: Ralf Mardorf , FreeBSD Mailing List , Polytropon X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bfk6P3g89z4NkR X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Tg+MBGwl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.84 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.017]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.80)[-0.797]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:34:06 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:15 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > > On Aug 30, 2020, at 1:23 PM, Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 1:14 PM Ralf Mardorf > > wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:21:26 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > >>> > >>> Rule: "Better have 100 photos and select 10 good ones, instead > >>> of having only 10 photos which are all crap." ;-) > >> > >> The averaged 36 photos and then replacing the film cartridge gave > >> holiday as well as professional photographers the opportunity to think= . > >> They not necessarily used this opportunity, let alone that some used > >> very long films for way more than 36 photos. > >> > > > > Completely incorrect about professional photography (at least after > > autowinders became available): > > > > The last (5) is equivalent of an expert (I am just replacing the word > =E2=80=9Cprofessional=E2=80=9D by what it implies), whereas (3) though qu= ite likely to > declare being an expert, most likely is not. > > Those are my humble observations. Of a person never considering oneself a= n > expert, though often knowing what I know and what I don=E2=80=99t. > I never claimed to be a professional photographer (I barely can take a non-out of focus/stable shot half the time). I was only talking about what I have observed in situations where I have had an opportunity to observe how the pros did stuff compared to amateurs and in photography burning film like no tomorrow once you have what might be a good shot to get that "perfect" shot is something I have seen time and time again. So if you want to call my direct observations being a loose cannon be my guest. I will say it sure took a huge leap on someone's behalf to take what I said as a claim that I was ever a professional photographer or even claimed to be. --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 20:32:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D9A3C8DB3 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:32:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BflPn09bhz4WlJ for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:32:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from rwmaillists@googlemail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id w2so3618635wmi.1 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sB3F/nkJ4nS2vRX+XslAPfMTe1ZozmBWk3sq4QY972s=; b=dix8E8yCVvKBLCdLTLFzUgR1QsOw67qtMTbKpKz3sSwWpeamRFACbglhO//1rVnVch FrjLU7yaW8wqjsXRaCndAEjToYp1noRTTTtw4Vzhse94B50qSNlOP+KOKJpGzjlKmYIy FXh4gInzG12bbhHNReXjnNM3IH37PdMoKdpHVpRdsBa9wFg7oR/n3cg6qFkMWsRohGzQ m9CoUMAsLpFIZAmVw2uMDDCO2BAv8ithfeRFdbUSYaNADvbd9No4poYGn3dmMND8ws7o Iv1Aoc3/Hpep00sXGt2mgmzYysRbTbnlyDOKm+Tr6A1syKLmGSNl5j6Uk5gljJctwY8V sOOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Ig5rgwhbHvmmipJzjAFGneDWltY6/TKL6dPw0UL9cu85hH+hL 4cG6qB3k/AIs7uR9dkvnHnZL7ww7+gE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxBKxj8UcdnqhhhG0RptyZ8FFhVBdp47GKi9feH0V54+GRs7ck9uQcbAm7/dle4L+6Ir6c3WA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c5cf:: with SMTP id n15mr7993409wmk.93.1598819167729; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gumby.homeunix.com ([2.222.25.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o2sm9099411wrh.70.2020.08.30.13.26.05 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:26:02 +0100 From: RW To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-ID: <20200830212602.21bf7af3@gumby.homeunix.com> In-Reply-To: <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BflPn09bhz4WlJ X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.33 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[googlemail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[googlemail.com,quarantine]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[2.222.25.14:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[googlemail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[googlemail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[2.222.25.14:received]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[googlemail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.48)[0.478]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.87)[0.867]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.990]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::32c:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:32:29 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:58:48 +0200 Ralf Mardorf wrote: > >And what if hard disk > 2 TB > > 2 TB aren't enough for several operating systems, at least when > storing data on different devices? > ... > ...not many private persons really need to store more than 2 TB/disk. External drives in the range 4TB - 8TB are very popular these days with the general public. Hard drives haven't kept up the increasing size of video files. Personally I haven't bought a magnetic drive as small as 2TB in over 10 years. One thing that's going to complicate this is that manufactures have been pushing shingling into consumer grade drives by stealth. It's now the norm for 2TB drives. They are OK for storing multimedia but not so good for an OS. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 20:37:51 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A503C9792 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:37:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BflWx1tQMz4XMP for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:37:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BflWt6Gz8zFgs0 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:37:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1598819866; bh=rm9/0kMtOvA+FmWooG/if5X9YhUtB2+aU5FprEPiYfY=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=T5ixWc+kkfncoGN3oJJw51G2o3sxk+JCld4f1Nxx0NBio99IRUbO3gF+SuSCdTRxx 9T46/Nd03QyXVaU2nC+9wkpgaodVt2IIPJRSQYs4g1iNwZMeTr7cc+bx5Nqf1UpTmb W89SNZHz8nTXod3EKdgdngMnhETtITWq+CC3phRE= X-Riseup-User-ID: BEA797C5389343E45B5860DF41D78D1A192647342E0DF7CBC03CF44EB88D4520 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BflWt2Z8bz8v0T for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:37:34 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-ID: <20200830223734.56340854@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BflWx1tQMz4XMP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=T5ixWc+k; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.37 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.030]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.74)[-0.735]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.001]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:37:51 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:23:54 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >1. In photoshoots (modeling or otherwise) once they got the rough >pose/layout they wanted they would be shooting away as fast the >autowinder would move puring roll after roll of film to get that >"perfect" shot (watch any video of photoshoots before digital came in >but after autowinding) For my taste this kind of photography is crap. >2. As a student reporter I covered the anti-war protests on the first >night of first Gulf War in San Francisco with hand cranked my 35mm >Cannon (no idea of the model number) and in the course of the night >used 4 rolls 500 ASA film and one roll of 1000 ASA film (which I >bought off a professional news photographer). I noticed that every >single one of the professional news photographers was shooting at >least one roll of a scene that I took one (or maybe) two snapshots off >due to the lack of film. There might be good reasons to sometimes shoot a lot of photos of one or the other scene and sometimes there are ethical reasons to take no photo of some scenes at all. However, nowadays television news show videos made with smart phones by amateurs and very often it's unimportant for documentation, it's just offending human dignity. Sensation-seeking isn't the same as documentation. After the news probably a documentation about curious outlookers, upskirt photography and other annoyances is shown ;). --------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:11:45 +0200, Polytropon wrote: >Maybe I should have used better words: There actually is a >difference between photo and snapshot Some vacationists don't take photos, they prefer to draw and paint ;). --------------------------------------------------------------------- R=C3=A9sum=C3=A9 Some photographers might need TiBs of storage for good reasons, so huge GPT drives might make sense. Other people should consider to stop making fashion photography, sensation-seeking photography, upskirt photography, selfies etc. and data volume might decrease rapidly to an amount that can be handled using MBR. Medical recordings are important and might require TiBs of storage. Collecting data by fitness trackers for self-optimisation is data waste that shouldn't exist. However, my opinion is unimportant, if people like to make fashion photos and fitness tracking, they should do so, it's still not likely that this alone requires more than a few 2 TiB devices with 4 or less primary partitions. I'm not speaking against GPT, I just try to explain that MBR usually isn't bad. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 20:52:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979743C950C for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:52:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bflrt5H0Gz4XdR for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:52:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id 16so2646334ill.6 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:52:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=i5CQUJYx5kNADBenxQ/ZuzE1FEZqS30va4jtK+o895s=; b=NQv39In0Ww6bD7TsPdawmb/jDHvrU4Z79MqRHwOCp5RnxTBO8KBuAv3Rhfy39PRx5w +AjFlkyOD7ejgqOmmplEPBk8vGWrzF8LpAjhyNAMtwe5mXlFdmnU9PKklYLpxIDCnvA7 1IFlrctglC3FGNcb5OYuBlLABUBUO12uKi22iES60nAEfwiggP8Btac2LKRm37zaxFSA 18bTlNr1TTz+JnYoZK/IBobg/E/GeYKNc6GinWirIDZ1EjYOwzu7KByyDpj6W49PHzQH BR+HSB14Ft2GeFEGxMNNQf2h4Yr7TRj5+rLYJH6O6OPjqfAlykiQYDQj5oSYr7Xd1L1v IZAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=i5CQUJYx5kNADBenxQ/ZuzE1FEZqS30va4jtK+o895s=; b=o289U5fNboca2W0vQL3jGjWgLBs4Be9yUBgX6QZmwCGzLLDFUqXP/t7c/HeE6axQFT C+J3D292m9URterM8hIyQTX684nmQecPuIF3RHQ7mpLnhCm8dNU4Lpl1NefHYIFZXMer I7VVfyOY+FLzbsOoee1yNUK3LZhrqpZNvOP+5PGr6ylCCR0lXvqfPlWeYI0J3szRhD6J u/DO6dm8XwcafHxpY/RaNWJ0SeL9/V8o5+01ZPhq7t4JbmH0s02RRopa3L3tfci58S09 18QHH8TS/BBXjdvn8B/fHOE/M+NmbEzStG03Tmv3aj8kkO6YfHHSUXkoAczR/UU+2Qiz jTyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531MQSOI9fsHpz5RFUeLfdWlvcDJ41dqa3Xv8veXDb3gOr0sl4T3 TE+tv3Lw7wISlcoSu9/aKUFJx2X6oZUeYycW0os= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzsnDSZhpQySjl+d+1D3BYhdXjaNeRfNCR1Kwd6sq+okWUcE9luSN3U2DYfwEup63mPLsKzP4DxDFGQ0RNr8as= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c9ca:: with SMTP id k10mr1550896ilq.81.1598820749461; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:52:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830085848.68ab4832@archlinux> <20200830083908.c7cc67a23306c90d51f5e446@sohara.org> <20200830172126.5332f0eb.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> <20200830223734.56340854@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200830223734.56340854@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:52:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bflrt5H0Gz4XdR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=NQv39In0; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.023]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.010]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.04)[-1.039]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:52:32 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 4:38 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Medical recordings are important and might require TiBs of storage. > Collecting data by fitness trackers for self-optimisation is data waste > that shouldn't exist. > These days there is a very fuzzy border between telemetric diagnostic grade medical data and telemetric personal fitness data. For example many of the doctors that use my clients system first want to see the fitness tracker data for a few months (at least) before deciding if a more formal diagnostic test (using the client's system) is needed. Some insurance companies actually require this as a part of the approval of payment. That assumes the patient has a fitness tracker, if they don't then it is often a fight between the doctor's billing dept and the insurance company. For this reason our system has to allow the tracker data to be uploaded and looked at side by side with the diagnostic data when the test is complete (to prove there is something the diagnostic data found/did not find that the fitness didn't). A few months worth of fitness data is easily a few GB, multiplied by several thousand patients and needing near a PB of storage for the backend is easy to see. Side note I can't stand the XiB (X=K,M,G,etc.) notation vs. the XB notation. For one thing a Kibibit sounds like the name of a dog food and not a measure of storage, mebibit sounds like the babalings of a baby, gibibit sounds like type of monkey, etc. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 22:06:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E45C3CC90D for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:06:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hmurray@megapathdsl.net) Received: from ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net (ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net [64.139.1.69]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfnVJ2nxGz4dfY for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:06:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from hmurray@megapathdsl.net) Received: from shuksan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A399340605C; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.7.2 01/07/2005 with nmh-1.3 To: Ralf Mardorf cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, hmurray@megapathdsl.net From: Hal Murray Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) In-Reply-To: Message from Ralf Mardorf of "Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:14:32 +0200." <20200830191432.7c02fd62@archlinux> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:06:24 -0700 Message-Id: <20200830220624.A399340605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfnVJ2nxGz4dfY X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of hmurray@megapathdsl.net has no SPF policy when checking 64.139.1.69) smtp.mailfrom=hmurray@megapathdsl.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.58)[-0.584]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[megapathdsl.net]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.66)[0.658]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.74)[-0.740]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4565, ipnet:64.139.0.0/18, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:06:33 -0000 ralf-mardorf@riseup.net said: > Btw. I'll only _try_ to replace my not that good, but quite usable, but aged > and dusty analog 35 mm camera, a Canon AE-1 Program. I don't know, if a > middle-rate digital camera can replace it. My target isn't ... Digital is the way to go unless you want to play in a darkroom with old chemicals and such. Several years ago, a friend who is a camera geek told me that the switch to digital by professionals was very abrupt. Two things happened at roughly the same time. A digital picture made the cover of Sports Illustrated and the airlines started xraying carryon baggage. Since this started as a disk space discussion, there is a neat trick that generates lots of data. If you want a picture with fantastic depth of field and your subject is holding still, you can get it. The camera takes a series of pictures focused at different distances. Software sorts it out. If you have seen a fantastic picture of an insect, this is how it happened. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 22:12:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF0A3CCBB5 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from p-impout009.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net (p-impout009aa.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net [47.43.26.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bfndh326cz4dtv for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from localhost ([96.28.177.163]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id CVZAktgG3Uue7CVZAk1pch; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:49 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=L+tjvNb8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:117 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:17 a=HpEJnUlJZJkA:10 a=kDE-tZP9w5REByJhpcwA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=a91rRdoBwgp5LorH:21 a=-RIkaU_dz4ca8fPp:21 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:10 +0000 From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfE/+Q7XB2MrLrMeDmq4Qi4Cm8lLBsZAAQ/29pu6pIxxhQWRhgr5XD0Id8KoFbjjO+sw7ewXYb0STXgqfGwNC5hCFvytvVl6d2z1fiykFc1WvTP4U9m5I MVCuQMHbqDU+LA3ZXu2xTcy6VvL4oMPwVPw7i1maY7uYccm9XkRiLtPTR0W9IlP/gjUaT3fOC1V2pw== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bfndh326cz4dtv X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mueller6722@twc.com designates 47.43.26.140 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mueller6722@twc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.52 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[twc.com]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[twc.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[twc.com]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.80)[0.798]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[96.28.177.163:received]; MISSING_MID(2.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:47.43.26.0/24]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.895]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.62)[0.625]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:40294, ipnet:47.43.24.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_NEUTRAL(0.00)[47.43.26.140:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:57 -0000 from Polytropon (excerpt): > Most multi-OS settings seem to work best with BIOS + MBR. > Boot selection can either happen using a PF key at system > startup, if it's more than one disk, or you have a separate > software solution, like GRUB or FreeBSD's boot manager, if > all systems are on one and the same disk. How is that? It seems to me that GPT would be practically the only way for multi-OS. Grub 2 can be used to select the partition to boot. Some or many OSes can not run on a logical partition, only a primary partition, using MBR scheme. And what if hard disk > 2 TB, or would that be 16 TB in the case of 4096-byte sectors? > With MBR, you can have up to 4 "DOS primary partitions", > i. e., slices. FreeBSD needs only one, other systems may > need one or more. If 4 isn't enough, you need to remove > one, and put an "DOS extended partition" in the free slot, > which then can hold "logical volumes inside a DOS extended > partition". This is typically called EBR. > The limitations of MBR are no longer valid with GPT: Any > new partition gets a new number, and if you want to have > 20 partitions, that's no problem - it's natively possible. > The problem could be systems not properly understanding > GPT layout, and if I remember correctly, FreeBSD's boot > manager does not support multiboot from GPT. > On systems that do not have BIOS or "legacy mode", if I > did understand everything correctly, MBR is not supported > unless a EFI partition has been prepared beforehand. > And in case of ... I won't name it to avoid trouble, > even that won't work - you need to enable a Compatibility > Support Module (if present!) and so on...; all this > because you "should" use UEFI + GPT. > It's actually quite complicated... ;-) > You can avoid all this for FreeBSD-only systems by not > using any partitioning at all - you just add labels (using > the disklabel / bsdlabel command). Note that only letters > 'a' to 'h' are possible (with exception of 'c'). > To summarize, you have the following usable (!) options: > a) BIOS + dedicated > b) BIOS + MBR > c) BIOS + GPT > d) UEFI + GPT > In case of MBR, FreeBSD gets one slice; in case of > GPT, FreeBSD gets as many partitions as it needs. > The partition types are also different for GPT and MBR, > and depending on the desired layout, the partitions you > need can change. > Within a slide*, you can create multiple partitions. The > common approach today is to have one big / and some swap. > The idea of "functional partitioning" typically suggests > a layout like this: slide? Did you mean slice? > ------------ device in /dev ----------- > dedicated MBR GPT > /boot - - ada0p1 > / ada0a ada0s1a ada0p2 > swap ada0b ada0s1b ada0p3 > /tmp ada0d ada0s1d ada0p4 > /var ada0e ada0s1e ada0p5 > /usr ada0f ada0s1f ada0p6 > /opt ada0g ada0s1g ada0p7 > /home ada0h ada0s1h ada0p8 > This is just a very simplified example. > Also remember that most other systems fail to understand > dedicated partitioning. The idea of "partitions within a > slice" comes from BSD coming from non-PC systems to the PC, > where MBR was required for multi-boot interoperability (to > a certain, often quite limited degree). With GPT, there are > plenty of types, so this is no longer needed. I run several versions of FreeBSD and NetBSD, also need to save partitions for Linux and Haiku. FreeBSD and NetBSD can't read each other's disklabel or bsdlabel-type subpartitions, and sub-partitioning a NetBSD slice with disklabel is very tricky, drives me crazy. GPT means I never have to deal with traditional BSD disklabels any more; I don't run OpenBSD or DragonFlyBSD. Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Aug 30 22:29:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 190513CD231 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:29:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bfp0H4kw9z4fm3 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:29:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id k18so3515512qtm.10 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:29:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5DJVwzF138XstL7P65hTquADWcXA8eX9OI85mVQm+jc=; b=RPI9N13ncECVUGCE4DWCTdoaRH/fgVADEqF1j5I0nSz+bCz49I8ELoMLmwM2HRux+g Ux3yrNeN6HAyirsTm87tgPjU3EKYgi2UnCp+e3gfK9NSXZjgO+581BNYNHERHRGAysFj n2Xt2ZTYdwVqORA/UJtN29i2WxBkoPhKrylZhWCF7v7BS68qVTjngHgDWuoPXhnbB7AE JUcawL7BNB9h3dOK1WwaKE1AAb0O7BBoeX9XavUh5DTr8uTYsH5ZcJWvRkpUCLhz+zTS H3lKWHK2nGLlhUZT++GR8q/GVanjW/leEf7tRCSimXzB3PmVQzZIi4gpyyg16kacsoNG A8zA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=5DJVwzF138XstL7P65hTquADWcXA8eX9OI85mVQm+jc=; b=HCwmFXz1MWghIppZ5LXEu0RXdsc4nyBN15AugwFHiMxl7QC4XVlAQxz5JzpQd4IGY1 K580RxniszcoIQiZ4XUudRxaOQCTp5TaGzKGDxg7kn5K62wW0l/YjJlY9gv3goHS6mLj L0fOFtbzW5DuF20IPeVdTxt/0gz1t41FDHagaNrtpWL6nGXsRg7l5rLru90g+YZ6fyI9 XtRn0bh0EWSYf5AfwRpp1NjG5lnR77lKuIx5n7cjgS59AW+SqYDwTq7kWY7gzD65vC/W gl59yi/LX9/0C2An4StYCMnqVY/8bzJ0XMhGNCm7J8OPJLlxy92Roe5F3zeJk1/C4YYO dRRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cLazu1jEYM/lun9hRk70b3tO6aReMaSD9dDAIgw+G6GXU9Y+0 Oyh3sNR0ehhLQ6f8NPpiiun15Jrh59ZFjPUlFfcnOoYjFM0MYTVc X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+DAbiLO6Cr3+6uTShgySR7406GRELAxRlD/CbtyM/2kI4Iox1vhagRodHTYp+/CajhXfNJWXBgB2PRq/SlVA= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e0b:: with SMTP id c11mr6110188qtw.37.1598826542144; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:29:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <5f4c2477.1c69fb81.f2ee5.4fadSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <5f4c2477.1c69fb81.f2ee5.4fadSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:28:26 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bfp0H4kw9z4fm3 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=RPI9N13n; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.88 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.721]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.85)[-0.853]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.01)[-0.009]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:29:06 -0000 On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM Thomas Mueller wrote: > > GPT means I never have to deal with traditional BSD disklabels any more; = I > don't run OpenBSD or DragonFlyBSD. > Yes. It does make for an uglier /etc/fstab =E2=80=93 in my case, anyway. I= use a uuid generator for names of partitions that share a disk. /dev/gpt/X0ytZZj73CYF0-root / ufs rw,noatime 1 1 /dev/gpt/X0ytZZj73CYF0-swap.eli none swap sw 0 0 /dev/gpt/X0ytZZj73CYF0-tmp /tmp ufs rw,noexec,nosuid 2 2 /dev/gpt/X0ytZZj73CYF0-var /var ufs rw,noatime 2 2 /dev/gpt/X0ytZZj73CYF0-vartmp /var/tmp ufs rw,noexec,nosuid 2 2 /dev/gpt/X0ytZZj73CYF0-usr /usr ufs rw,noatime 2 2 The fstab also shows the argument for separate parititions for tmp filesystems. Any world-writable filesystem should be noexec, nosuid. Well, that's my opinion. --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 03:43:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21283D43DA for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 03:43:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=KOeE=CJ=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bfwz35WR2z40Tj for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 03:43:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=KOeE=CJ=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Bfwz23SRvz2fjYg; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:43:26 -0700 Cc: User Questions Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <72ECE758-0797-48A1-9CCF-8A1128CBBB0A@mail.sermon-archive.info> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> To: Valeri Galtsev X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bfwz35WR2z40Tj X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=KOeE=CJ=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info designates 71.177.216.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=KOeE=CJ=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.90 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.975]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:71.177.216.148]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[lafn.org: no valid DMARC record]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.53)[-0.534]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=KOeE=CJ=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5650, ipnet:71.177.216.0/23, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=KOeE=CJ=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 03:43:28 -0000 > On 30 August 2020, at 07:35, Valeri Galtsev = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thank you, Doug. You induced my refreshing of memory, and also showed = that I didn=E2=80=99t describe clear enough that BESM-6 instruction set. = I have my post above for convenience. That BESM-6 machine has = instruction set with three operands, and all of three operands can be = addresses in memory. But in general 3 operand instruction set can have = only one or two operands as memory addresses, the rest can be registers. = I looked on wikipedia (I assume, the following is what you referred to): >=20 > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_set_architecture >=20 > and of all 3-oprand instruction sets it was only one: CISC by IBM that = affors all three operands be adresses in memory (alas, reference to it = given on wikipedia doesn=E2=80=99t seem to exist). I understood your first statement perfectly. I didn't have the time to = check out each of those architectures to ensure all three were = addresses. Back in 65, my one and only computer class, we were shown 1, = 2, and 3 address architectures. I don't know, or remember, if there = were actual examples of the 3 address architecture. It may have been = theoretical. A quick check through the texts I have remaining from then = doesn't show any examples. Virtually everything was based on single = address machines. However, the only machine I had any real access to = was a 2 address machine. -- Doug From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 04:43:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358483D53E8 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:43:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BfyHp32MXz42Y3 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:43:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.112.48]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1N5FtF-1kcCxj09iP-0117UD; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 06:42:58 +0200 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 06:42:57 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Thomas Mueller" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200831064257.42c29cd1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <202008302219.07UMJtgP003679@r56.edvax.de> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <202008302219.07UMJtgP003679@r56.edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:AxBiqI2blUMbc7l3AnoVdHoFU0pLIy9/mj7wZfjcExyAPxiNuo2 En83Vxdcjc0fNRlJAGzr1RFJmhsu57GL40bJfoTA4xDJbWkemVrjSp/jkVuEZME8Glzg5Y/ k2i2w+NiTgXC42F1YpQVi2gGZKZfwgxOfHWVWZV72TiRUKzGvtmnGzEv3biggTTlwC0GJpe KqIBvJp0HhbSbIy1hIIcQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:JgEvQl4JzPg=:3pEG+9d/Cbm6IJ08SBwN7n VB6H9t55uD4gEyWHTUBW9j3IGYK6QBG7Kl5ZC8J1ygsgmm6xrPQ9ZhVMnZSPIfYymC6gOjVFf 0X36/NLeIdooSJnKA0ZQQ7lK1GuGlv/U9JkI6qtxZdhFUMg++z95dB9LI7g26S3HuDjIxe1ZX +KX7xLwh2sF77b+GaPfa9XHp9Qb0snfEE5v84QYyhpbakMe1bVI98Q7IypSN9lQb5XeYDJUe6 sDSDXupCf49nR4fLTSYsUJVRmRAwtg4hAE/TAuWCM4wY0SH0YwkTeM0/oCvEk/y7C9hGaJHtU x4RJ/9MLAW69qU8WvL7G2wRLf4R8JE/fQXWdi7gDuehiuW7s6frVYmuGuIiZRZy9AYVFCiApX zWbr/uz3RRcaVTJf5ST2u7OF7nGeMcQMg1sFvHRTy68q53e3sCAW7VZPeAsdi3D8iT6dygjTr j2DYWccX+cm8pRwVWokBxDW7h4lE783JIkBRFcajLMrhtJwSWORBSkSbAxV/OTz5zkJ58Zm+y xPkHzocSDISKJX7S0Tb5cSxvCcQlWYbWM8hGvaLhoJ1kqBJ6KGYEn9PBA+nfe7NEpqVnuK8wM hAizMmrY/pSS06aP18M+xMXNXJDiZBYaZEnjc3q1yaz3fLLzRMmpXY8AQ1/TUT06ZT/c7lhwy m6hoLm+52KTuBz6gK5qthd3WWhum2h6D1Syj1SgoOEhOV2fndlIkEJ+8ymBffE5IqnVEYNmlG 3Hue5mQYDvsVB/FmZJg3asf0WYz23AfTXl3kVA59FgcwN42Gj2MoGe+RNFZBDIFuy8fkDyX9Z tjUvUW8pUiRX1gwKHoXOYSH+KiA1C+hFVOb0DIlq+CcSESKouWbppGfYI3UHQS2Ep5j0R9K X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BfyHp32MXz42Y3 X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.95 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.67)[-0.666]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[twc.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.112.48:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.33)[0.330]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.888]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.133:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:43:04 -0000 On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:10 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: > from Polytropon (excerpt): > > > Most multi-OS settings seem to work best with BIOS + MBR. > > Boot selection can either happen using a PF key at system > > startup, if it's more than one disk, or you have a separate > > software solution, like GRUB or FreeBSD's boot manager, if > > all systems are on one and the same disk. > > How is that? It seems to me that GPT would be practically > the only way for multi-OS. I've been running multi-boot system even before GPT existed, and so have many others. With MBR and the restriction with only up to 4 "DOS primary partitions", it could be a bit complicated, but using "DOS extended partitions" and the "logical volumes" inside them could help. For example, I once had an experimental system with DOS, OS/2, and Linux. If I remember correctly, there were 3 primary partitions: #1 for GRUB, #2 for DOS, #3 for OS/2; then one extended partition where the Linux filesystems were included in. Later I removed Linux and installed FreeBSD, using the 4th entry as primary partition #4, and inside it, regular FreeBSD labels. But that was many years ago, and time had some undesired effects on my memory... :-) > Grub 2 can be used to select the partition to boot. This only works as long as all the operating system you want to have on one and the same disk can actually be installed in either a MBR or a GPT partition - it is of course not possible to mix them. :-) Using a boot manager (and typically "wasting" one paimary partition for it) was the most convenient way to multi-boot on MBR. There was another option: Out of the 4 primary partitions, exactly one had to be marked "active" (i. e., bootable), because the BIOS would simply check for the first partition table entry that contained an active primary partition, and then transfer control to it. If you accidentally had, by whatever means made it possible, achieved to mark two partitions active, usually the first one was booted. The "order of finding" and therefore booting could also have an effect on what "drive letters" would be designated to the disk partitions, if the booted OS could identify (and maybe use) partitions of the other non-booted OSes; what was C: to one system became D: for another one. By the way, the FreeBSD boot manager is an exact example of how to multi-boot on MBR. It has worked for decades, and due to its size, it does not require a primary partition for itself or its configuration, as it would fit into a regular boot block natively. > Some or many OSes can not run on a logical partition, > only a primary partition, using MBR scheme. Yes, that is a restriction that might apply. In such a case, you are limited to 4 primary partition entries and have to select accordingly. > And what if hard disk > 2 TB, or would that be 16 TB in > the case of 4096-byte sectors? That means trouble for MBR. :-) > FreeBSD and NetBSD can't read each other's disklabel or > bsdlabel-type subpartitions, and sub-partitioning a NetBSD > slice with disklabel is very tricky, drives me crazy. All kinds of sub-partitioning don't really appear to be portable across different operating systems. While in worst case you get a "drive letter" with the inability to proceed any further with on-board means, regularly they just get ignored. If your goal is to have some kind of "data exchange partition" or even a "shared /home", your options are limited depending on the operating systems involved. > GPT means I never have to deal with traditional BSD > disklabels any more; I don't run OpenBSD or DragonFlyBSD. That is correct - GPT supports all required "carrier types" for UFS (and ZFS) and declarations for swap. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 07:50:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1DB3B8C28 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:50:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from p-impout003.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net (p-impout003aa.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net [47.43.26.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bg2Rj056Nz4CMb for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:50:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mueller6722@twc.com) Received: from localhost ([96.28.177.163]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id CeZkkxC75yLuYCeZlkS5ye; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:50:01 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=K4pc4BeI c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:117 a=xqrt2BZAGHte7XHhrxJgbA==:17 a=HpEJnUlJZJkA:10 a=Q0OADb6aAAAA:8 a=UzX2Mqht7XTpWCp5HNkA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=CB_vUN888Ig4uwC4x9Ra:22 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:49:21 +0000 From: "Thomas Mueller" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <202008302219.07UMJtgP003679@r56.edvax.de> <20200831064257.42c29cd1.freebsd@edvax.de> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfA8XlyLhyunCbCWBIbpPYBou9UXOS7XTdbGRgWdK9cKgYXfCrjnPgV7s1/b8SV7SIzsxvt0hUXZW/I4teMkuaXvQUHnOV4+05VuCk2qR+WoPz/cfY4vL iZGE2c4hWJy5HiqF3xQ+4bGjU4C1RgfBvPOCvwsyp8WeIpVfjQSTd/YdTRdcKjNubKkYdnoQG9SH1A== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bg2Rj056Nz4CMb X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mueller6722@twc.com designates 47.43.26.134 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mueller6722@twc.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.58 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.104]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[96.28.177.163:received]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[twc.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[twc.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MISSING_MID(2.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:47.43.26.0/24]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.74)[0.743]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.46)[-0.463]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:40294, ipnet:47.43.24.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[twc.com]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:50:09 -0000 from Polytropon (excerpt): > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:10 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: > > from Polytropon (excerpt): > > > Most multi-OS settings seem to work best with BIOS + MBR. > > > Boot selection can either happen using a PF key at system > > > startup, if it's more than one disk, or you have a separate > > > software solution, like GRUB or FreeBSD's boot manager, if > > > all systems are on one and the same disk. > > How is that? It seems to me that GPT would be practically > > the only way for multi-OS. > I've been running multi-boot system even before GPT existed, > and so have many others. With MBR and the restriction with > only up to 4 "DOS primary partitions", it could be a bit > complicated, but using "DOS extended partitions" and the > "logical volumes" inside them could help. For example, I > once had an experimental system with DOS, OS/2, and Linux. > If I remember correctly, there were 3 primary partitions: > #1 for GRUB, #2 for DOS, #3 for OS/2; then one extended > partition where the Linux filesystems were included in. > Later I removed Linux and installed FreeBSD, using the > 4th entry as primary partition #4, and inside it, regular > FreeBSD labels. But that was many years ago, and time had > some undesired effects on my memory... :-) I used to run IBM OS/2, from 1.3 to Warp 4, until one single-digit day in April 2001, when the two-hard-drives setup crashed, trashing my data. After that, I was never again able to boot OS/2 Warp 4 even from the installation diskettes. I was left with Linux and DR-DOS 7.03. OS2 and its successors, eComStation followed by ArcaOS (arcanoae.com) have not advanced as much over the years as FreeBSD, NetBSD and Haiku. ArcaOS still does not support GPT. ArcaOS uses FreeBSD network (Ethernet) drivers, raising the question of why spend money on ArcaOS when FreeBSD is free and more usable. > > Grub 2 can be used to select the partition to boot. > This only works as long as all the operating system > you want to have on one and the same disk can actually > be installed in either a MBR or a GPT partition - it > is of course not possible to mix them. :-) I have Grub 2 on a Super Grub Disk written to a USB stick (4 GB). > Using a boot manager (and typically "wasting" one > paimary partition for it) was the most convenient way > to multi-boot on MBR. There was another option: Out > of the 4 primary partitions, exactly one had to be > marked "active" (i. e., bootable), because the BIOS > would simply check for the first partition table entry > that contained an active primary partition, and then > transfer control to it. If you accidentally had, by > whatever means made it possible, achieved to mark two > partitions active, usually the first one was booted. > The "order of finding" and therefore booting could > also have an effect on what "drive letters" would be > designated to the disk partitions, if the booted OS > could identify (and maybe use) partitions of the other > non-booted OSes; what was C: to one system became D: > for another one. > By the way, the FreeBSD boot manager is an exact example > of how to multi-boot on MBR. It has worked for decades, > and due to its size, it does not require a primary > partition for itself or its configuration, as it would > fit into a regular boot block natively. I used Lilo as my boot manager in those days, main OS then being Linux Slackware. I was able to boot FreeBSD 8.2 from Lilo, as far as I remember. Tom From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 14:31:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61D23C312F for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:31:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BgCLk6VQTz4ZfW for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:31:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C91834E65B; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 09:31:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) To: Doug Hardie Cc: User Questions References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <72ECE758-0797-48A1-9CCF-8A1128CBBB0A@mail.sermon-archive.info> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 09:31:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <72ECE758-0797-48A1-9CCF-8A1128CBBB0A@mail.sermon-archive.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BgCLk6VQTz4ZfW X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.29 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.75)[-0.752]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.91)[-0.913]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.73)[-0.730]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:31:27 -0000 On 2020-08-30 22:43, Doug Hardie wrote: >> On 30 August 2020, at 07:35, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Thank you, Doug. You induced my refreshing of memory, and also showed that I didn’t describe clear enough that BESM-6 instruction set. I have my post above for convenience. That BESM-6 machine has instruction set with three operands, and all of three operands can be addresses in memory. But in general 3 operand instruction set can have only one or two operands as memory addresses, the rest can be registers. I looked on wikipedia (I assume, the following is what you referred to): >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_set_architecture >> >> and of all 3-oprand instruction sets it was only one: CISC by IBM that affors all three operands be adresses in memory (alas, reference to it given on wikipedia doesn’t seem to exist). > > I understood your first statement perfectly. I didn't have the time to check out each of those architectures to ensure all three were addresses. Back in 65, my one and only computer class, we were shown 1, 2, and 3 address architectures. I don't know, or remember, if there were actual examples of the 3 address architecture. It may have been theoretical. A quick check through the texts I have remaining from then doesn't show any examples. Virtually everything was based on single address machines. However, the only machine I had any real access to was a 2 address machine. > Thanks for looking, Dough. So far BESM-6 (released in 1968) seems to be the earliest machine with 3 address command system I know about. I am not mentioning its predecessors (BESM-1 - 1952; BESM-2, BESM-3M and BESM-4 - 1964), which may have had the same 3 address command system, though I only am certain about BESM-6, which my friends told me a lot about. They were system programmers in the place that designed BESM-6. Valeri > -- Doug > > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 16:24:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32EA53C5C7A for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:24:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BgFsV0rx4z3VmW for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:24:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.112.48]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MXYAj-1k5Pwl3Vbb-00YwKl; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:24:41 +0200 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:24:40 +0200 From: Polytropon To: "Thomas Mueller" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (very OT) Ideal partition schemes (history of partitioning) Message-Id: <20200831182440.09a3e5d0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <202008311611.07VGBww5001944@r56.edvax.de> References: <20200829154417.8dd5f83d.freebsd@edvax.de> <202008302219.07UMJtgP003679@r56.edvax.de> <20200831064257.42c29cd1.freebsd@edvax.de> <202008311611.07VGBww5001944@r56.edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:m6wYgubogPNNAVkfBDo1Ii+MQ6e0NBFEQN6MGzvrtGFfGj9JQBI 5c06/Kmk3YK9CeCPxuz6l72+jGV0F2ac5yoBQbOq5QhhaFrO3d03CrwrWuOuDD2xZrrJym7 sNtm7WSAscJsnOgScBq6V68VvZXI2TuAvATImpr8Hh0napcKQBQj6II1x9/iTdYEOmkcAxq KFdkxx547bnM/J3QC/DHQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DXOaO11zbJk=:J5Bl9H1BXgDw5A+Q+RtsZE jBb+C2GhvIumpmKcc/XbcOkmBxQ9Te+5/khx22uWj4D/Fh1/dtp4OQyaaDv/QE2VWVjJjHNyO +SH+cNyhRco9mniEs+RxLfPy66k/1blBNj9dmsw99t4DJ0XaMtIrPniUr9UOjn4SXhZS7lBOL Stpw7UFkn3e86dHT2OhZsi8sLRBhUn9LTv4Uf0+9T0is3SB3SwmXz30Grr/1qSipj5DgyFCHZ e96f7Im9GwxiHFv69UIj69oEuJ4i3QBFR6PZG9JxLGjNppexHisfq1Yblrv+kXsfRTEZ/WeUX hHRgq4y96FURJSiCzqPSj99fX6/ExR4wjXR4MId9xKDLG7BY01Eqwq5CvsRC4fZaoTS2wnwtv jNSb+yCUHOMoygl+N5fKj/6ZejwU4koIc/l3SIvtD99LuGjr0lvl4iNjbVpE9J2Up6a6fk1Ea ch14L4mMnxuxMdPrEwNZ9pTuJv9Aodz6BjQ0RSF3zVibeA9PNrRYgtmwgZPG/0+k7GFPELIgz /jK8P5WwF0m2NpZItdQdoLb7lxB/OjHAzkdSbqATjpl3+k8JC++8rAHTB7/YSrVUHrlzikPy1 JwQtoX63F+MHJCjuao6JoHNqZQ2Z21I/y/PJVa/mUOgzIhr2q9Pavg8Yk5BYMyf6NAwwpODb9 gHoA69e3vHMwUT6jhSoWVnHFOWq/z/RFQ8YRgj9+HbkGijOZ4FHGFWFE3Fwt0jwCS/5ZaR/Ym Jssuhp65gAnpKJQVnREBqmvOxWoHl8MUaqB0CIcLhCu1GgwLp61AK6iL1x8qr7I0CmvL2nkEf paJcu+TLk+0zuzBtAFLsmUdWlmOxu/icZLCOvy0xHY/FV1UcLpU38QFo7veRn4bueUKtsWN X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BgFsV0rx4z3VmW X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.78 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[twc.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.12.112.48:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.58)[-0.576]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.07)[0.073]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.89)[0.888]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[217.72.192.73:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:24:47 -0000 On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:49:21 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: > from Polytropon (excerpt): > > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:12:10 +0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: > > > from Polytropon (excerpt): > > > > > Most multi-OS settings seem to work best with BIOS + MBR. > > > > Boot selection can either happen using a PF key at system > > > > startup, if it's more than one disk, or you have a separate > > > > software solution, like GRUB or FreeBSD's boot manager, if > > > > all systems are on one and the same disk. > > > > How is that? It seems to me that GPT would be practically > > > the only way for multi-OS. > > > I've been running multi-boot system even before GPT existed, > > and so have many others. With MBR and the restriction with > > only up to 4 "DOS primary partitions", it could be a bit > > complicated, but using "DOS extended partitions" and the > > "logical volumes" inside them could help. For example, I > > once had an experimental system with DOS, OS/2, and Linux. > > If I remember correctly, there were 3 primary partitions: > > #1 for GRUB, #2 for DOS, #3 for OS/2; then one extended > > partition where the Linux filesystems were included in. > > Later I removed Linux and installed FreeBSD, using the > > 4th entry as primary partition #4, and inside it, regular > > FreeBSD labels. But that was many years ago, and time had > > some undesired effects on my memory... :-) > > I used to run IBM OS/2, from 1.3 to Warp 4, until one single-digit > day in April 2001, when the two-hard-drives setup crashed, trashing > my data. I also had such kind of experience once with a OS/2 install: The install went as planned, to a secondary disk, leaving the primary disk for DOS aside (and having boot selection in BIOS simply by turning off disk 1), but after the system rebooted, something happened to disk 1: C: was D:, D: was E:, E: was F:, F: was gone, and the original C:'s content therefore had vanished entirely. With manual and pen and paper and handheld calculator, and the help of a homemade "rescue floppy" with Norton Disk Editor (DISKEDIT.EXE), I was finally able to reconstruct disk 1's partition table as it was before, and C: was back, no data loss. System rebooted - everything as before. That of course was at a time where the name "Norton" was not associated with "The Yellow Plague"... ;-) The cool thing about OS/2 was that you could use the CD from DOS and generate install floppies in case the intended machine didn't have a CD drive (or one that wasn't supported); for booting OS/2's install CD, you needed two floppies: "Start Disk" and "Disk 1 for CD install", those came with the CD in a cardboard box, and as I said, if you needed further floppies, you could easily generate them from DOS. > I used Lilo as my boot manager in those days, main OS then being > Linux Slackware. Yes! LILO was it at that time, not GRUB. Also Slackware was my first Linux, which I used for a long time; it came with a PC magazine, 2 CDs in a jewel case. And of course: Yes, I still have those. :-) > I was able to boot FreeBSD 8.2 from Lilo, as far as I remember. At that time, I used FreeBSD 4 (transition from S.u.S.E.-Linux to FreeBSD as primary workstation OS). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 17:18:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A082B3C77CE for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:18:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BgH356B7mz3Ymw for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:18:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682582A6F2; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:18:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HmVXU9baVlry; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FDF42A6E9; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.41 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:18:06 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:18:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Jail question: packages with relative symlinks From: "James B. Byrne" To: "David Christensen" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BgH356B7mz3Ymw X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.44 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.74)[-0.736]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.013]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:18:10 -0000 On Fri, August 28, 2020 00:19, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-08-27 19:59, Valeri Galtsev wrote: >> When I said in my OP "I set up jails by the book" I meant FreeBSD Handbook, >> not any of printed books. > > Yes, I saw that. Unfortunately, I have found the FreeBSD Handbook to be > a mixed blessing -- some subjects are current and others are out of > date. Same comment for man pages. af3e and fmjail are both recent. If > and when FreeBSD revises jails, I may have to find a new resource. > If you are using ZFS on FreeBSD then IOCage is about as straight forward a means of setting up jails that you are going to find. If you are not using ZFS then IOCage is not an option. The man page for IOcage is as complete as any I have encountered. For that matter, so is the man page for jails. The advantage of IOCage is that is simplifies the user command line and infers the necessary options when maintaining a jail. This makes jails a more accessible option for sys admins with limited knowledge on the subject. IOCage setup of a jail on FreeBSD goes something like this: pkg search iocage pkg install py3?-iocage # py prefix will vary over time iocage activate zroot # zroot is the zfs pool name used - may be different iocage create --thickjail --release latest \ --name jailname \ ip4_addr="em0|192.168.216.88" \ # em0 replace with hosrt i/f host_hostname="jailname.example.com" \ assign_localhost="YES" \ # provide lo0 address if YES localhost_ip="127.0.88.1" \ # not needed if localhost = NO allow_raw_sockets="YES" \ # needed for ping allow_sysvipc="YES" \ boot="NO" # for start on boot set to YES Jails will use the settings in the host's resolv.conf unless explicitly set as follows. Changes made to resolv.conf in the jail will not survive a restart. resolver="search hamilton.harte-lyne.ca harte-lyne.ca;nameserver 216.185.71.33;nameserver 216.185.71.34;options edns0 timeout:3 attempts:3" You need to review the contents of the jails's /etc/hosts and make sure that the localhost setting are exactly as you expect. You start the jail with iocage start jailname You obtain access using iocage console jailname The root filesystem is located at /zroot/iocage/jails/jailname/root/ The jail's root user directory is: /zroot/iocage/jails/jailname/root/root/ The jail's console log is /zroot/iocage/log/jailname-console.log An iocage jail has two zfs datasets: zroot/iocage/jails/jailname and zroot/iocage/jails/jailname/root And that should be it. Updating iocage jails is covered more than adequately in the man pages. -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 19:19:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C97D3CAE80 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:19:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "www.holgerdanske.com", Issuer "www.holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BgKkp73ntz3ygg for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:19:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 (99-100-19-101.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:18:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Jail question: packages with relative symlinks To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: David Christensen Message-ID: <5f295e17-8dfc-84cd-6fc6-8a10b1da6875@holgerdanske.com> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:18:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BgKkp73ntz3ygg X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.03 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.63)[0.625]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.66)[0.663]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.84)[0.837]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:19:16 -0000 On 2020-08-31 10:18, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > If you are using ZFS on FreeBSD then IOCage is about as straight forward a > means of setting up jails that you are going to find. If you are not using ZFS > then IOCage is not an option. Thank you for the iocage information. :-) David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Aug 31 21:18:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DEB23CE64D for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:18:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BgNMx4pSMz470H for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:18:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luzar722@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id p185so7551816qkb.11 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0wr1/l21B6qz9vrFmGM3jMQxRp4dg2nAwhD6VV55c38=; b=QTh9IZn61xKGbSFXqrFvbTM70P64f7lP2y0WGO3+BNJYvGf87lnhQyiZc3EXf3P04X uog0xlx3pD/KnQe0jFzYHUDVlUnOf59M8+hpqX1wANGRCijANi5nXR7v0W99KiRiHIw8 xSu32WiNbc1guwQc70UfaNU+EQ4zhdcikOe78R/sRr+qAxwk5B0rjVOAM3XmG4Aq1VmH Rggb1btk/Cw4dC6L7TRACHjHwwOZ0jzOBk/IIZbcHhHRIzXnH7HpwA0rMwRwO0/cxSW8 ph8bDMBau84BS/1TLdEksSTOHgMQvRtVO9BjSBEW66m6pVkUPQ1Wwa6SrXqZEYjYvgya iwEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0wr1/l21B6qz9vrFmGM3jMQxRp4dg2nAwhD6VV55c38=; b=Q7yofqp+I99n0sqI/hspxURltH1hl36XBfM+eykIya2G0A66hb4Jndit49lrsl6U/I WMYsgEsVmKpQyEM9Pre/UdAMswGwfwo5fSi6B9p28+ZhI4Wd1pB7/HqMIXc24qZUFAaK j6q2xUM8WECoSoZIZZgQz1klYNGoNps6F5KjUHAPilh5FFatmbBF8AL8byumu455SKn1 +sQV+rC/PG6hq8G6gSPmThi+VFXB9AkSUDJmi24HHU46tG94erTA5L9rE4KFoqN3lt3g rilBjOdUC1D6e9OSk600dvq8DWXqV0wA79iRZc7sa7LsPvhZfljebzjmPlgLZgwl5Rdv fC9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531cGrV4dQ1GUhN6viZ+KcjyNvC/Q8AijezcK7uZ5t0oTBNOehtE s99pLGhaMkWopJhkjdYVBYrs2Ao8thc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3oiMrHSsEAbTOa6q9+YMIP7TblUlLsLhCe6wT7hzrDHMdLlMmpAx+MpoRzWYnsYmEDf81zA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:404:: with SMTP id 4mr3265465qke.46.1598908684755; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.8] (cpe-65-25-51-0.neo.res.rr.com. [65.25.51.0]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id b199sm9451461qkg.116.2020.08.31.14.18.03 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5F4D690B.1050706@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:18:03 -0400 From: Ernie Luzar User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Christensen CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jail question: packages with relative symlinks References: <5f295e17-8dfc-84cd-6fc6-8a10b1da6875@holgerdanske.com> In-Reply-To: <5f295e17-8dfc-84cd-6fc6-8a10b1da6875@holgerdanske.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BgNMx4pSMz470H X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=QTh9IZn6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luzar722@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luzar722@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.92 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.888]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[65.25.51.0:received]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.019]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.017]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:18:06 -0000 David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-08-31 10:18, James B. Byrne via freebsd-questions wrote: > >> If you are using ZFS on FreeBSD then IOCage is about as straight >> forward a >> means of setting up jails that you are going to find. If you are not >> using ZFS >> then IOCage is not an option. > > > Thank you for the iocage information. :-) > You can try qjail which is an fork of ezjail. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Sep 1 20:03:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A7B3D5A78 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 20:03:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx32.harte-lyne.ca", Issuer "CA_HLL_ISSUER_2016" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BgygL0LyDz47d5 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 20:03:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca) Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca (localhost [127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FD32B4B1 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 16:03:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at harte-lyne.ca Received: from mx32.harte-lyne.ca ([127.0.32.1]) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (mx32.harte-lyne.ca [127.0.32.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Taa6SjcGSxsf for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 16:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail.harte-lyne.ca (webmail.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca [216.185.71.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx32.harte-lyne.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E87882B4A5 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 16:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 216.185.71.41 (SquirrelMail authenticated user byrnejb_hll) by webmail.harte-lyne.ca with HTTP; Tue, 1 Sep 2020 16:03:20 -0400 Message-ID: <228e2610321a3beaa117603cba9c3e88.squirrel@webmail.harte-lyne.ca> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 16:03:20 -0400 Subject: IDempiere on FreeBSD From: "James B. Byrne" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.23 [SVN] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BgygL0LyDz47d5 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.51 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:216.185.71.0/26]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[harte-lyne.ca:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[216.185.71.32:from]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.85)[-0.848]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[harte-lyne.ca,quarantine]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12021, ipnet:216.185.64.0/20, country:CA]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.008]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[harte-lyne.ca:s=dkim_hll]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.958]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[harte-lyne.ca:dkim]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 20:03:28 -0000 FreeBSD-12.1p8 in an IOCage thick jail Idempiere 7.1 Has anyone here installed Idempiere on a FreeBSD host? If so, can you describe how you did it? Regards, -- *** e-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel *** Do NOT transmit sensitive data via e-Mail Unencrypted messages have no legal claim to privacy Do NOT open attachments nor follow links sent by e-Mail James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca 9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241 Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757 Canada L8E 3C3 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Sep 2 15:44:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2CF3DA5EA for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:44:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BhStP2Gddz4tNL for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:44:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8153C10635 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:44:38 +0100 (BST) To: FreeBSD-Questions From: Arthur Chance Subject: rpcbind opening random insecure(?) ports? Message-ID: <6831e7a5-dc1c-2495-b2ce-a5d1eae6606c@qeng-ho.org> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:44:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BhStP2Gddz4tNL X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.09 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.962]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.16)[0.159]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 15:44:46 -0000 I have a multi-homed server that I use, amongst other things, as an NFS server for my lan. To stop them being visible on the other interfaces rpcbind, nfsd and mountd all have -h command arguments restricting them to the lan's IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. This works fine for nfsd and mountd, but sockstat -l shows rpcbind opening unrestricted ports USER COMMAND PID FD PROTO LOCAL ADDRESS FOREIGN ADDRESS root rpcbind 18959 5 stream /var/run/rpcbind.sock root rpcbind 18959 6 udp6 ::1:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 7 udp6 2a02:8010:64c9:1::3:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 8 udp6 *:765 *:* root rpcbind 18959 9 tcp6 ::1:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 10 tcp6 2a02:8010:64c9:1::3:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 11 udp4 127.0.0.1:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 12 udp4 172.23.1.3:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 13 udp4 *:778 *:* root rpcbind 18959 14 tcp4 127.0.0.1:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 15 tcp4 172.23.1.3:111 *:* root rpcbind 18959 17 udp6 *:* *:* Note the *:765 and *:* ports listening on udp6 and *:778 port on udp4. Why is it doing this and how do I stop it? This is on amd64 12.1-RELEASE-p8, not using NFSv4. -- The number of people predicting the demise of Moore's Law doubles every 18 months. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Sep 2 15:55:28 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FE13DADB4 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:55:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ypankov@xsmail.com) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BhT6j5XLlz4txL for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:55:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ypankov@xsmail.com) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BA35C00EF; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 11:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 02 Sep 2020 11:55:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=xsmail.com; h= subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=i JlSCo4+uCQr5Q2c/CyhtyxUK4PjNkPr8Rp+kZJsq4M=; b=aXhRfcL5eF2Pn+GIj Y0y2Od6F9cR2f0UxBjBVMKKqqk64gruX7QuEVqvVT2Aaw0WdYnlnGAdWmpscSMcg zx1X7NXRMw1HFwpOyI7JQ7VI9lXtw2M0Vtb5CxleGV3PygBRU1h4PBag8fgdSaJE BRWMvczHiykIehyZLyDaz0lVvAbG3mS5MsQG/YjGvS/K8CbffucOl97itJClZHhC gs8SflGfkescXVmg+LNX0fjyNNQI0W2QK6aArTFEFOC55u0nFoGmKCF7PPbxcEug 00cw1CQXBDyjEdL5Wfjqbun26GN9+kVxXWzl3AlHyt8hEYsUGEn8Cfe0Ky/DAnpJ 4Fyug== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=iJlSCo4+uCQr5Q2c/CyhtyxUK4PjNkPr8Rp+kZJsq 4M=; b=dmCD171gjUoWEUuXiEmeDramzHCjFukMAJ6VraJey0dMyguMsLkmP3ug7 nh9gyfLq2YyZlXjSKKQRdscQYLotoAzJDdvtH01740JCwJf2cZhC6gVcmfMpA1gq fGChMWLYuOl96IUGcFHkxWkQJFXcVzzzzq51aDlpyb0jI1tzj4ghBLSa5l0QUgj3 3Ia3NjZV2aJyXlbRFxe4iEJTqXCOR4tIf3XNOhltdBwxQ2hQzl/U9die+Q8i7MZz /i8PzWAuZYrGmhtSprSiqr0xBo6rv8sDUcMhl4oZaM1VSiGdxCcjxu4TuOBYIq/S 7Hr2VrJ8gxfD3VwQMqLfwO9mTRFtA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudefledgleegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpegjuhhrihcurfgrnhhkohhvuceohihprghnkhhovhesgihs mhgrihhlrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefhvdevhfekkeekheeffeevjeevje duhfejgfejfeeiudegheeuueetheeiheduvdenucfkphepledurddvgedtrdduvdegrddu ledtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhephi hprghnkhhovhesgihsmhgrihhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [91.240.124.190]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 94EC73280068; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 11:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: rpcbind opening random insecure(?) ports? To: Arthur Chance , FreeBSD-Questions References: <6831e7a5-dc1c-2495-b2ce-a5d1eae6606c@qeng-ho.org> From: Yuri Pankov Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:55:21 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6831e7a5-dc1c-2495-b2ce-a5d1eae6606c@qeng-ho.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BhT6j5XLlz4txL X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=xsmail.com header.s=fm3 header.b=aXhRfcL5; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=dmCD171g; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=xsmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ypankov@xsmail.com designates 66.111.4.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ypankov@xsmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.73 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[66.111.4.29:from]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[xsmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:66.111.4.29]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[xsmail.com:+,messagingengine.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[xsmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.59)[-0.595]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[xsmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[66.111.4.29:from]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[xsmail.com:s=fm3,messagingengine.com:s=fm3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.012]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.018]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 15:55:28 -0000 Arthur Chance wrote: > I have a multi-homed server that I use, amongst other things, as an NFS > server for my lan. To stop them being visible on the other interfaces > rpcbind, nfsd and mountd all have -h command arguments restricting them > to the lan's IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. This works fine for nfsd and > mountd, but sockstat -l shows rpcbind opening unrestricted ports > > USER COMMAND PID FD PROTO LOCAL ADDRESS FOREIGN ADDRESS > root rpcbind 18959 5 stream /var/run/rpcbind.sock > root rpcbind 18959 6 udp6 ::1:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 7 udp6 2a02:8010:64c9:1::3:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 8 udp6 *:765 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 9 tcp6 ::1:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 10 tcp6 2a02:8010:64c9:1::3:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 11 udp4 127.0.0.1:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 12 udp4 172.23.1.3:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 13 udp4 *:778 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 14 tcp4 127.0.0.1:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 15 tcp4 172.23.1.3:111 *:* > root rpcbind 18959 17 udp6 *:* *:* > > Note the *:765 and *:* ports listening on udp6 and *:778 port on udp4. > > Why is it doing this and how do I stop it? > > This is on amd64 12.1-RELEASE-p8, not using NFSv4. What does `rpcinfo -p` think about it? From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Sep 2 15:58:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338A03DB299 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:58:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BhTBZ4WNZz4vD6 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:58:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C9810635; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:58:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: rpcbind opening random insecure(?) ports? To: Yuri Pankov , FreeBSD-Questions References: <6831e7a5-dc1c-2495-b2ce-a5d1eae6606c@qeng-ho.org> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: <09031802-22b8-a0d8-0692-7ec0cbb51057@qeng-ho.org> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 16:58:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BhTBZ4WNZz4vD6 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.98 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.07)[-1.068]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.63)[-0.632]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[xsmail.com,freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 15:58:47 -0000 On 02/09/2020 16:55, Yuri Pankov wrote: > Arthur Chance wrote: >> I have a multi-homed server that I use, amongst other things, as an NFS >> server for my lan. To stop them being visible on the other interfaces >> rpcbind, nfsd and mountd all have -h command arguments restricting them >> to the lan's IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. This works fine for nfsd and >> mountd, but sockstat -l shows rpcbind opening unrestricted ports >> >> USER     COMMAND    PID   FD PROTO  LOCAL ADDRESS         FOREIGN ADDRESS >> root     rpcbind    18959 5  stream /var/run/rpcbind.sock >> root     rpcbind    18959 6  udp6   ::1:111               *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 7  udp6   2a02:8010:64c9:1::3:111 *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 8  udp6   *:765                 *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 9  tcp6   ::1:111               *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 10 tcp6   2a02:8010:64c9:1::3:111 *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 11 udp4   127.0.0.1:111         *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 12 udp4   172.23.1.3:111        *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 13 udp4   *:778                 *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 14 tcp4   127.0.0.1:111         *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 15 tcp4   172.23.1.3:111        *:* >> root     rpcbind    18959 17 udp6   *:*                   *:* >> >> Note the *:765 and *:* ports listening on udp6 and *:778 port on udp4. >> >> Why is it doing this and how do I stop it? >> >> This is on amd64 12.1-RELEASE-p8, not using NFSv4. > > What does `rpcinfo -p` think about it? It only shows the port 111 sockets: root@nas:0# rpcinfo -p program vers proto port service 100000 4 tcp 111 rpcbind 100000 3 tcp 111 rpcbind 100000 2 tcp 111 rpcbind 100000 4 udp 111 rpcbind 100000 3 udp 111 rpcbind 100000 2 udp 111 rpcbind 100000 4 local 111 rpcbind 100000 3 local 111 rpcbind 100000 2 local 111 rpcbind 100005 1 udp 954 mountd 100005 3 udp 954 mountd 100005 1 tcp 954 mountd 100005 3 tcp 954 mountd 100003 2 udp 2049 nfs 100003 3 udp 2049 nfs 100003 2 tcp 2049 nfs 100003 3 tcp 2049 nfs -- The number of people predicting the demise of Moore's Law doubles every 18 months. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Sep 2 21:17:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500FE3CA49E for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from nightmare.dreamchaser.org (ns.dreamchaser.org [66.109.141.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "dreamchaser.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BhcGQ1404z4Jtn for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:17:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Received: from breakaway.dreamchaser.org (breakaway [192.168.151.122]) by nightmare.dreamchaser.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 082LHPt9008081 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:17:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freebsd@dreamchaser.org) Reply-To: freebsd@dreamchaser.org From: Gary Aitken Subject: packer script for virtual box that works? To: FreeBSD Mailing List Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:13:50 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (nightmare.dreamchaser.org [192.168.151.101]); Wed, 02 Sep 2020 15:17:25 -0600 (MDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BhcGQ1404z4Jtn X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@dreamchaser.org designates 66.109.141.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@dreamchaser.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.56 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@dreamchaser.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.305]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[dreamchaser.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.967]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21947, ipnet:66.109.128.0/19, country:US]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:17:35 -0000 I've managed to get virtualbox installed and running, and using the gui I can create a ubuntu-18.04.5 server VM that seems to work. However, when I try to build a system from the same iso using packer, it starts up, goes through the install questions, then fails and reboots... in an endless cycle. Can anyone send me / post a packer .json spec for ubuntu-18.04.5 (or anything) that works? I suspect there are all sorts of missing directives that don't seem to be documented anywhere (I can't find a list of directives for builders in the packer info on the web); it took me forever to track down the "guest_os_type": "Ubuntu_64" directive. Thanks, Gary From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Sep 3 08:59:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514063DF86E for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:59:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gpiero@rm-rf.it) Received: from serafino.rm-rf.it (serafino.rm-rf.it [192.165.67.94]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BhvrC4rw6z471K for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 08:59:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gpiero@rm-rf.it) Received: by serafino.fdc.rm-rf.it (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9a373d98 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:59:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from robinhood.fdc.rm-rf.it (robinhood.fdc.rm-rf.it [192.168.192.50]) by valentina.fdc.rm-rf.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937FC1F629 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:59:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gpiero (uid 1000) (envelope-from gpiero@rm-rf.it) id 5a2b07 by robinhood.fdc.rm-rf.it (DragonFly Mail Agent v0.12); Thu, 03 Sep 2020 10:59:14 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 10:59:14 +0200 From: Gian Piero Carrubba To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jail question: packages with relative symlinks Message-ID: <20200903085914.6azjzk6cus4t7s6i@robinhood.fdc.rm-rf.it> References: <5f295e17-8dfc-84cd-6fc6-8a10b1da6875@holgerdanske.com> <5F4D690B.1050706@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5F4D690B.1050706@gmail.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BhvrC4rw6z471K X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gpiero@rm-rf.it designates 192.165.67.94 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gpiero@rm-rf.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.39 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.955]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:192.165.67.94]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.04)[-1.037]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[rm-rf.it]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.10)[-0.095]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34971, ipnet:192.165.67.0/24, country:IT]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 08:59:25 -0000 * [Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 05:18:03PM -0400] Ernie Luzar: > >You can try qjail which is an fork of ezjail. I would avoid it: https://erdgeist.org/posts/2017/dont-piss-in-my-beer.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Sep 3 11:38:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DA93E28C4 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:38:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (baobab.bilink.net [212.45.144.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BhzMY28Fmz4Hrw for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:38:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BhzMQ0qB2z1ftWm for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:38:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.mcs.it (hermes.mcs.it [192.168.132.21]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:38:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mordeus (unknown [192.168.45.6]) by hermes.mcs.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D2A4E6163 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:37:35 +0200 From: Luciano Mannucci To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Laptop SD memory reader X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) X-Face: 4qPv4GNcD; h<7Q/sK>+GqF4=CR@KmnPkSmwd+#%\F`4yjKO3"C]p'z=(oWRnsYBQGM\5g:4skqQY0NnV'dM:Mm:^/_+I@a"; [-s=ogufdF"9ggQ'=y MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> X-Virus-Scanned: PippoLillo, ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BhzMY28Fmz4Hrw X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luciano@vespaperitivo.it designates 212.45.144.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luciano@vespaperitivo.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.921]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.45.144.0/24]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.02)[-1.016]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[vespaperitivo.it]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.56)[0.560]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8816, ipnet:212.45.128.0/19, country:IT]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 11:38:18 -0000 Hello all! Sorry if this is not the right mailing list for my question. I have a Toshiba Satellite laptop happily running freeBSD 12.1 RELEASE with an SD memory slot. If I insert an SD memory chip in it, nothing seems to happen. Do I have any chance to make it work? I think that the relevant part of my pciconf -lv may be: sdhci_pci0@pci0:0:20:7: class=0x080501 card=0xf9251179 chip=0x78131022 rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' device = 'FCH SD Flash Controller' class = base peripheral subclass = SD host controller Is there a device node associated with that? Many thanks for any answer, Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Sep 3 11:58:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D743E3248 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:58:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bhzq714YHz4JxH for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 11:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.36.163]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MMnnm-1jxEwF3NfI-00IiMi; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 13:58:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:58:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Luciano Mannucci Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laptop SD memory reader Message-Id: <20200903135839.3fa9712e.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> References: <4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Wa23iNO/fts3RlYM+wcqnD/hEkeY9DXeD2DXOhEjED7S+tUfIEJ GVyK5+ix9LrjWoO44L43uTAc7f7WTCafpf3y/JivqwzPSCi3q167XnAOglRtwn/ADiZTTHG qEemFSQuuciB62sfkqgMBw6zRiy8UNHZxdmK6WTficcxIhty4NkTKPWnO1M6jB5FDWbF15J JsnV3iXk4ldcb4dPnVsIw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:vn85y1YIXYo=:e0Sa1Ig5puk7u5IUU06+U3 +lyXSrbNdFr7wkOIi0F8SYuDGjZCzVv/XUH7R5LY+JQ2e5JaztMLj08jh1c2iSA7JxIF3cXxq E+vvcflSvgTqJFjfsqEG5h228qLrys+hzJt+4/pTXP3zW2UAWEaBdS9hKSHmDvUv5enZ44Am6 wlhliHdCGqIQe8daYjrM2l3HZ4jlN5o6xSVNhiPj1ixBVfraAHfLM34CvB727E2k4lkH6pnwU zcKpwXalLpwSPWP/80/L+T+l22esDekOdvkZVT/ApscoxeLXrFLQ+YU38G1qjHIwcSZqlcPk0 zzlDfN4Ssc5sZmRPgC0AAATk/Z8RFw1diJxreW3GJcWhnQkFRcbXkpajFCJW8aT3Je0v/hWVN 8T3uvKAK6Ia8ss80Zko9AQ+oGhBCITwKOPGaIdSUrqMznFGUc5sgS3d3jnwNke7DbmrCiN/Rw VacfT2GMYQdhzkb09DW9FM8FIpDU0T6LJ8TgzYV4J4QMCyMbKu+yDzPeFv454gtK4SsFay0ft GqWxYcQCXCc2cbycqdmvMoA1Oqynai87VC/xArZitt3HaeOEnS0b+0zlI5x9Yse8w0wUEqg6p Kq31n25t8G4ihpweZfV+7O4Z/pQRMrwFH9324eqzRv6fCkjWfeZ86qJhJQeJv4FYia+bFNYXV thYpBTNM1vyqsWilAcGb7ige12L2u8dUZBfadDY52SLcDfKU2XOcMzUQnk/Wx1X/tb1zjvTdd bCAhKy1KK7v6sL0mkowvrR9ojgU8syOe5/FZUVsFJsyuPlBE0CTl5mQrdj2TqIxDLJcvHznO+ WCKvjUPJvzis1Ub7IF073Zx5Vb5vfA7AGh5h5FsfmGSKfIjC6QYq9ec4MGY+fvWohQjF4C1 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bhzq714YHz4JxH X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.46 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.13)[-0.132]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.36.163:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.41)[-0.411]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.40)[-0.401]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.10:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 11:58:44 -0000 On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:37:35 +0200, Luciano Mannucci wrote: > I have a Toshiba Satellite laptop happily running freeBSD 12.1 RELEASE > with an SD memory slot. If I insert an SD memory chip in it, nothing > seems to happen. That is to be expected. > Do I have any chance to make it work? Probably yes. There is a procedure for that, even though it is a little inconvenient. :-) > I think that the relevant part of my pciconf -lv may be: > > sdhci_pci0@pci0:0:20:7: class=0x080501 card=0xf9251179 chip=0x78131022 rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 > vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD]' > device = 'FCH SD Flash Controller' > class = base peripheral > subclass = SD host controller > > Is there a device node associated with that? Yes, it's usually a "da" device, like /dev/da0. Check the output of "dmesg | grep ^da" as well as of "camcontrol devlist". For most card readers to work as intended, the medium needs to be "re-tasted": # true > /dev/da0 Now it can be mounted, as the partitions it contains will appear as device entries that can be mounted. Example: # ls /dev/da* /dev/da0 # true > /dev/da0 # ls /dev/da* /dev/da0 /dev/da0s1 # mount -t msdosfs -o ro /dev/da0s1 /mnt ... # umount /mnt This will also work with automounters, in case you're using one of those. The "re-taste" command needs to be repeated if the card is changed. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Sep 3 15:45:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBBA3C21BB for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 15:45:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (baobab.bilink.net [212.45.144.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bj4rZ66CPz4c5c for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 15:45:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bj4jc0dg0z1ftWf for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:39:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.mcs.it (hermes.mcs.it [192.168.132.21]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bj4jb6ydrz1ftWd for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:39:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mordeus (unknown [192.168.45.6]) by hermes.mcs.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915494D5E46 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:39:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:37:14 +0200 From: Luciano Mannucci (by way of Luciano Mannucci ) To: Polytropon In-Reply-To: <20200903135839.3fa9712e.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> <20200903135839.3fa9712e.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) X-Face: 4qPv4GNcD; h<7Q/sK>+GqF4=CR@KmnPkSmwd+#%\F`4yjKO3"C]p'z=(oWRnsYBQGM\5g:4skqQY0NnV'dM:Mm:^/_+I@a"; [-s=ogufdF"9ggQ'=y MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:38:42 +0200 Resent-From: Luciano Mannucci Subject: Re: Laptop SD memory reader Resent-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Resent-Message-Id: <4Bj4jb6ydrz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> X-Virus-Scanned: PippoLillo, ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bj4rZ66CPz4c5c X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luciano@vespaperitivo.it designates 212.45.144.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luciano@vespaperitivo.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.45.144.0/24:c]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.34)[-0.343]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[vespaperitivo.it]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.32)[0.318]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MISSING_MID(2.50)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.33)[0.328]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8816, ipnet:212.45.128.0/19, country:IT]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS(2.00)[freebsd@edvax.de,freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 15:45:19 -0000 On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:58:39 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > > sdhci_pci0@pci0:0:20:7: class=0x080501 card=0xf9251179 > > chip=0x78131022 rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, > > Inc. [AMD]' device = 'FCH SD Flash Controller' > > class = base peripheral > > subclass = SD host controller > > > > Is there a device node associated with that? > > Yes, it's usually a "da" device, like /dev/da0. > > Check the output of "dmesg | grep ^da" as well as of > "camcontrol devlist". I see no "da" devices anywhere. And camcontrol devlist says: # camcontrol devlist at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 (ada0,pass0) at scbus1 target 0 lun 0 (cd0,pass1) # maybe the chip used in the Toshiba Satellite is not supported... Thanks for you answer, Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Sep 3 23:41:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09D13CE92C for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 23:41:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.131]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjHQ04rJNz4B7T for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 23:41:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.8.36.163]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MfL5v-1klMXW2pSN-00gtRF; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 01:41:25 +0200 Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 01:41:25 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Luciano Mannucci (by way of Luciano Mannucci ) Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laptop SD memory reader Message-Id: <20200904014125.05b0c2fa.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <202009032336.083NawaN001912@r56.edvax.de> References: <4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> <20200903135839.3fa9712e.freebsd@edvax.de> <202009032336.083NawaN001912@r56.edvax.de> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:yVdNBzG4e8/1TaSX+usieU32I6fApgqDueNZhc4uXACilSRkiYm CkAYmifOlMzAZ+CH6ODkukFCKMu4PZpSvVMwYBEaOcLUsF32qqFY6I7G6K5r4Sc/8wdtRv4 ds+YqIW/0XMB8uWPGpj0MVUYK+092mRFTem8zUSiFY2ZYCkXwYbAnZpLVbDu9EQXFHm927c HOjSjIE5dJ9oljqIr54aQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:oLp/4FeKRcA=:KL9VlZh7ML/KsT5VyAongz VXxa5lVA02JTlV7mrzcAufaPFA8tvW+Bxn+iNAHwqQam1ivmWsWzu/2HdCL7GD6ulw1ELgDQI +hsZRRGWZtVZdfSglIQGlx92VW83bB1DucxNEL8gFfgmr6thiCy3AZkcOEtcj9tldhBnF5Rip vanIecdbRHlKN4j7w2CfgCi3fQDukl765Jn0s8BQ1zl0bWljGcIynFQWm0MyJfcuBF2QvtJDM qhFum+SfyA1pOsAVzmZSFR+E6/GiYmgViim5nG6h6knsk1W3Jm7Wky2lL9kHB37rWrz6eK8yk gSh0VFRqvoNtJt+eRE5Q2B4I815TU0/ZYRa+K6YR3TeIAYy2BkCSR/YQJcjUHmND9Qr2j08ym v1Yo9JfWxRlt7pr/XxTKHyFYWI0CtKJ4ylckx2QQmQDTEAdp2e3fUExhlu74kMZj1Zp+XtlJ7 BKqNRaaCOs9H7YXa9/ya7MBrnSeBQNhCk2B4xZSxUoRQRO1Nu1h3NmC2E9FYAoYNAnkfev5w6 jDL3NPyMZG7AbbJ8P+5Cv+fxm4c+MZKTOIJbK/34fJtAzKXp0PDybcFHlDMhxHO6dSHzgpQKc ZOyjTVG1tQBp9aV8Oly5AgPnEyCgwr5xjWykIEiHTkRcPu/k6gFiVBQiBBOMLssMUjOeuQKba jmF9SnnJCwHPEScr/QJrdGqb7Bm0iqmrVxYc5l84LTyQsyjwPJ5D3eWleLlcIWtskmMt0F3Pl llMW3K2wsKsOlbPoqojgfRhjTuZmtvcV0ESW4OcGpEnKC7w1PR7o4EHis0ZXi/LHRntvYlqQK mG4u1ZLwqCRKUuz6l3gZQW6GgNXqhxtQuXoL7sNSur4Jo4OV+TI1n8q42UdcK9vQgwH7kU5 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjHQ04rJNz4B7T X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.131) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.58 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.46)[-0.461]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.8.36.163:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.37)[-0.368]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.01)[0.010]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.126.131:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 23:41:30 -0000 Re-including list, hope that's okay. On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:37:14 +0200, Luciano Mannucci (by way of Luciano Mannucci ) wrote: > On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:58:39 +0200 > Polytropon wrote: > > > > sdhci_pci0@pci0:0:20:7: class=0x080501 card=0xf9251179 > > > chip=0x78131022 rev=0x01 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Advanced Micro Devices, > > > Inc. [AMD]' device = 'FCH SD Flash Controller' > > > class = base peripheral > > > subclass = SD host controller > > > > > > Is there a device node associated with that? > > > > Yes, it's usually a "da" device, like /dev/da0. > > > > Check the output of "dmesg | grep ^da" as well as of > > "camcontrol devlist". > I see no "da" devices anywhere. And camcontrol devlist says: > > # camcontrol devlist > at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 (ada0,pass0) > at scbus1 target 0 lun 0 (cd0,pass1) > # > > maybe the chip used in the Toshiba Satellite is not supported... That is possible. > Thanks for you answer, Check if your specific laptop requires loading of a acpi_* module - I had to do this on a Lenovo laptop in order to get the internal SD card reader working. In your case, try: # kldload acpi_toshiba.ko or add the corresponding entry to /boot/loader.conf: acpi_toshiba_load="YES" After system restart, check for a da device corresponding to the card reader. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 02:52:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246D83D3D41 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:52:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BjMfF6TCDz4Qcd for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id DE2CB3D3F14; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF3F3D404E for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:52:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mail-oo1-xc30.google.com (mail-oo1-xc30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjMfD4ml4z4QNT for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 02:52:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: by mail-oo1-xc30.google.com with SMTP id r6so1282922oon.13 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 19:52:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IpV4DbF7uOGS5LXOjJ3AHkPhqAXMLtKfXVNe0Ly+NYc=; b=tl6iDwt+WRQAPVbu/1s4YEX1odhP4sjTYdol9+mEuBsEblZUjz0JDC9knDa4THKbfm JKdeQ/Ebp+uFgAjNvMsfYxvKooEq/mtCQXyQfG3GIVotXsVG7AyG2pRJmpBQd3Q6rgXQ Trf77+ircTjANJQXc8tNOi4WZMCSpViB9NG1MDSgxt1uQdGART3QGRV3ReqGgy8Z93mD YKklyytRmtj4Aza27NTlkY0pGpE4craU77V4ssfOfFs8RYBcZJgDTucan7iihrFaH70m pqjpmE/VVS6fwg+TfXMCYxc4t0YhvMmiaX1DhZT2xEDtlbfEwcZ3Pc6mvOCXO4Sa4iFw R6kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IpV4DbF7uOGS5LXOjJ3AHkPhqAXMLtKfXVNe0Ly+NYc=; b=FhX5wXdBp5NO2qNrawjrAdmNZ9eut6CoG+DtFLu5HiPfyc14SDR3GrWSksTxkia/e+ 00J6F1/5R127EtLY/U3YfuIp4BAruDZqdkDY7tenD50OVRvEcGO0lAReHrjH9/4vqxCc iaIS6USbSeyumWWyhnEUMzXrUxW7AZPrxn3DCATSvJej9P96jLjCiqV8Sfh99AOEiRGF V9X9S7ljAso1px3SXAzj38MVjhe3rgJiIv875vRKFT5G94hPulr7BIKBxfBb7CS8wC5A IRGuAHclaeMBd6FUqCWJiPgZutfr0F4Qo5Thsl0O4fKHDcAvwhFNM+lXaRuvzu+mENAb nmbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316Mk74br9sG1+TT6a3NjKsxOr6YveHfx4nYqp3/cg4/B6+l/Cv 11hEZ0WFKL1T6U7lVGniF7/34+Pe5QOOA25wlvmbKJAYrXc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPG39MJ/t9ny/ZeZc3LYWPdZ8efLznXsXtkVO550oabjxYsaquNYtRdtCDbRnShkX8uLb21XfBiNNCHV9FJVA= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:e75a:: with SMTP id n26mr4175487oov.29.1599187939070; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 19:52:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kevin Oberman Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 19:52:02 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: UEFI dual boot To: questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjMfD4ml4z4QNT X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=tl6iDwt+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kob6558@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kob6558@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.64 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.017]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.93)[-0.932]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rkoberman@gmail.com,kob6558@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rkoberman@gmail.com,kob6558@gmail.com]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 02:52:22 -0000 I just received a new laptop, the first to only support UEFI. I have shrunk the Windows partition and used bsdinstall from the memstick to install FreeBSD 12.1. The partitioning went fine, except that there are now to efi partitions, the one previously on the drive for Windows 10 and the one the install created. I now need to learn the magic of configuring boot. I have looked at the wiki tutorial and the efibootmgr(8) man pae, but I am missing something basic. Should I have two efi partitions? If so, how does the system figure out which to use? Into which does the efi loader go? This is further complicated by not having been able to get the network up, so I can't upload my configuration. (This is an unrelated issue as I can't get W10 to connect to my network, either.) Anyway, pointers to useful documentation or a cluebat would be appreciated. -- Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 11:38:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4723DE341 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:38:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjbKm3YJzz3dGF for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id g14so6809206iom.0 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 04:38:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dDh/R8uCwxge0EJT0DZHkl2CbBrua3H9HGdgSMe+39U=; b=OFa/GwyhazIhoVb8T6PNnv7U3+MI9fyyJnS4uS+64WputNz6j1sDWrggN3vilihujM pFiudGLe+MJlgqSgGp8QPvzvrrjicCX97X+4fweq7W7mfHrfRRqzTr16oTwzAAQ/wme3 3qsjkicGdh7MiRjCjfC4eYcjXeJlbCaLvADpTJQ0SKAGvG+6GLmbC+LV+UoPEouCtJVU /sOIDyoe02kwXzoMf9SvitfDg15O+xNXPOUFz++r//yzmvOO03KTgJxCGDlFlZHMi0I6 Zt37l66AiOrWKEtWrleUwZ2lbzK8doaGnYvPZHQR9XeLhsHwpaUUFI1c3ZBsLERXYlF1 0tQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dDh/R8uCwxge0EJT0DZHkl2CbBrua3H9HGdgSMe+39U=; b=ljEQB40TH2lzQeXyCoUW1+RoDlxIkUFXbMrehoI+3adE59xyQH90nR0aTW8y2r5jrE QoZG1FRQykk2zDoD3+0mWRT5qLzpFmwTexLZ+gebSq9O3dgAYgbqJSPp/KFZ6Em0gjP2 /gnxfeV5iEAI9BcnNt8DjD7gwe5IhKaIRkZzgf3TO5g/IC8chhEtU0vbUbgniF0QvLyn 7a2EKT711+o1mEFIfXzDDrVKBvz7N2bPo2+jIKbU0mSvrK3+udwvBvfaYRHIgqQT8uUZ +rhZC6ebyKmrNXEbSup7/Hn77y7179K2ZSoYn5MVNEYes86JgidSGpNuFQJ0XXmESycI BA0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530sd9gASNjmXsi/fCcYz09ApYx3jGGPktJycTlsST2+UXhMm3ul 1js3hhbY4guIqZT5dgbkhCa96PZILoPoWKb39FSvhBXuPZv1BA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz7f7i4cTCsvwMTygGLiMrTM7viGfaAK9RTIgbd7JYXGDMCQLW8THeoRsm7UopExRcafH2VgkvL86dV86wDPh0= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cd0e:: with SMTP id g14mr8085016jaq.74.1599219530827; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 04:38:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 07:38:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjbKm3YJzz3dGF X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=OFa/Gwyh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.06 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.07)[-0.074]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.992]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 11:38:53 -0000 https://hackaday.com/2020/09/03/linux-fu-moving-usr/ The above is of course trivial in FreeBSD... make the new partition copy /usr to it, add mount point to in /etc/fstabs and you're done, and mount it... no systemd or other brain damaged components. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 14:14:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3412C3C3CA3 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:14:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (baobab.bilink.net [212.45.144.44]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bjfn21y0lz45nd for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:14:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from luciano@vespaperitivo.it) Received: from baobab.bilink.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bjfmv2vm1z1ftWd; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:14:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.mcs.it (hermes.mcs.it [192.168.132.21]) by baobab.bilink.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bjfmv27Z4z1ftWh; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:14:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mordeus (unknown [192.168.45.6]) by hermes.mcs.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725514D5B47; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:14:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:13:32 +0200 From: Luciano Mannucci To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laptop SD memory reader - Solved In-Reply-To: <20200904014125.05b0c2fa.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <4BhzMQ037Xz1ftWd@baobab.bilink.it> <20200903135839.3fa9712e.freebsd@edvax.de> <202009032336.083NawaN001912@r56.edvax.de> <20200904014125.05b0c2fa.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) X-Face: 4qPv4GNcD; h<7Q/sK>+GqF4=CR@KmnPkSmwd+#%\F`4yjKO3"C]p'z=(oWRnsYBQGM\5g:4skqQY0NnV'dM:Mm:^/_+I@a"; [-s=ogufdF"9ggQ'=y MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4Bjfmv27Z4z1ftWh@baobab.bilink.it> X-Virus-Scanned: PippoLillo, ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjfn21y0lz45nd X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of luciano@vespaperitivo.it designates 212.45.144.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luciano@vespaperitivo.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.003]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:212.45.144.0/24]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[vespaperitivo.it]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.60)[-0.596]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8816, ipnet:212.45.128.0/19, country:IT]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 14:14:15 -0000 On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 01:41:25 +0200 Polytropon wrote: > Check if your specific laptop requires loading of a acpi_* > module - I had to do this on a Lenovo laptop in order to get > the internal SD card reader working. In your case, try: > > # kldload acpi_toshiba.ko > > or add the corresponding entry to /boot/loader.conf: > > acpi_toshiba_load="YES" Thanks. I installed the rtsx drivers from the ports, added acpi_toshiba_load="YES" rtsx_load="YES" to /boot/loader.conf, and... > After system restart, check for a da device corresponding to > the card reader. Yes, after the system restart, if I insert an SD card in the reader, I get, in /var/log/messages rtsx0: Interrupt card inserted/removed rtsx0: Card present mmc0: on rtsx0 mmcsd0: 32GB at mmc0 50.0MHz/4bit/256-block camcontrol devlists doesn't notice anything, but now I have a /dev node that I can happily mount issuing mount -t msdosfs /dev/mmcsd0s1 /mnt and it works! Many thanks, Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL / E-MAIL: posthamster@sublink.sublink.ORG / \ AND POSTINGS / WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 14:48:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51053C492E for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:48:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wattersm@watters.ws) Received: from linux1.tor1.watters.ws (linux1.tor1.watters.ws [165.227.44.84]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BjgWz39JPz47h9 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:47:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wattersm@watters.ws) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (d53-147-217.nap.wideopenwest.com [64.53.217.147]) by linux1.tor1.watters.ws (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB488C4E885 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:47:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Michael Watters Autocrypt: addr=wattersm@watters.ws; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFayHsoBEADQIhLWXAoE6StYIQIqct6xXwy7s37/u62G0V7PSdc3W4/AoSdC+ZvAXnn/ C8TfbP3VqtVty2DhUVpqUkyOUqeKV0OmSFwAeH/YROr3Rha3VNyUalpFGbDtYRSns8qjFGUj YhLxx6xCQLCiq3+YqUYK0hTIhJCn5zHMzFdp+TPz046LR3qA4OdaWtGZklUfeGys6kCWVAQG Vxx9+humCfWBjn9ANuNqiOmcjNomhGuQ8kCsvcdn3vAelwEyk6fkqLI8uw9kWyZeQ/RURyuW qKriujz0odrQf6MMUwMJ5zIFyLe7wuQxSDApeZXZ8eP6R73Ic+tcqQC4+RvIf5f6PnJhOpKJ d5TDcO6YsqKTc27XzHdx3LUEHEaNrD30TLmXytBNccuW+QOfXQtXh2oKpRRt5qyzGG384r25 7yND1ta1HPM5amgMq8YsbZTnqQHl6NG5WgGBt3jiRUnPXyINrUCy79l51EP8JJiC3qtQPufj nWtGCmovr5ZWeKIpk3s2elkk+zRUb4UViuvEX+qweMRu2R8uIfPpWG7UFQ/et7BFkfMl1O+t M+DFdNVaYtfgHICwyLoTGIDFDv4W3dqISTsU+z/YzSiGCH3rFqdabJfF3no0nyUAqkb5Yn+X 2X22JAq/N7LKrDf3uLy+sMVGHwoQI9T0WkyMpkkBYT777cAaBQARAQABtCNNYWNpbnRvc2gg S2V5IDx3YXR0ZXJzbUB3YXR0ZXJzLndzPokCPQQTAQoAJwIbAwULCQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMB AAIeAQIXgAUCXhCt4QUJCyD2FwAKCRAFjwxRWGyoxgHFEACi0g4rpqfD6vJy3j9L7Xa3vEWR 1o27goTsPGbTETo2xT2RshG2mmmpDF/gxXUR7mUziiYNGynrOf1Rx05QhrrHYB6lTOPxlAVT ce5jJ24+WH3Mpy0eYtB2m6JgoVZtjYN9E7Wbvj2rYLlxQqlC5vzcXsLd5fsP+GeZnRwY3OIv WAk7cszx/QPmDFgSa7zF3JCT63yGutX8g+alKPAM92oy99KtjtO6ZpV7k/niwBE0QFTvCNZa kEdaAIFXJ8F7oc50KDowWpSP6zu8MkkCccPNAwM8VtZ21648yIvbtVo16KSxcWSR8DiGuqYz wPorqf3FQzpI4g8bfQUoezIJLus0slkIE0Nn3P1RKxKxcU3ehauPEcqJIowmdpeY7qsYB4Im G9ckIjBZXaKnifg73IB+bJlFY/pOR3c57xsYmzLujAvCsCDvKUENJ84aA/7AQWQjXUGelbQE 3Iqy32D9hOr0loSQWvDcT3yUovOaCykmiOl7I3bCV52kRXAiOVcEXtPdempVY309bq8RovFN pKVfxrkvEfZ8+1+C8xB9c4lpcDjOQ/5vbteSUEVK+blgX/6y4oDus3CphbmyaawAiKfykZJb EQjwhBuRdG9ytpdjdWC4H0ZgEyua4xFVeSy9jZopttya4r5JmLd2vzEkyOxTxGQcC80x57ia MmjK4ZR7Kw== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:47:47 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjgWz39JPz47h9 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wattersm@watters.ws designates 165.227.44.84 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wattersm@watters.ws X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.02 / 15.00]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.943]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.977]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[watters.ws]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.10)[0.097]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:165.227.32.0/20, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 14:48:00 -0000 This is more of an issue with systemd than linux (the kernel) itself.  There *are* distros that do not use systemd available. On 9/4/2020 7:38 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > https://hackaday.com/2020/09/03/linux-fu-moving-usr/ > > The above is of course trivial in FreeBSD... make the new partition copy > /usr to it, add mount point to in /etc/fstabs and you're done, and mount > it... no systemd or other brain damaged components. > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 14:48:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4D93C43DF for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:48:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dvoich@aim.com) Received: from sonic302-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic302-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com [74.6.135.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjgXK3cbYz47Yd for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:48:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dvoich@aim.com) X-YMail-OSG: a8e6z2AVM1lxyIV54R3u5rbVp0foDFrbH6KkarHOiijJWL3GgNWABEHfs1aKGPx IyBY63ZwnuWCIiG5DVSOwKThFRKsA6oqxAVfQzas5fWZvwQnt4uSJkdWeoOZmw99NY8C1Ls5xKw4 weEoFBjN61NaPtZf9bYh4zFRRvl5xMBtLNQmFVg7F3lEMUru3aVIGnavPqJv7OHHs9I6Rr1ptYNj NW8kxTqV3n3V09DU3x8cBYZBTY34_1b260.P4uRC1Id4yEV6KGcs27G.Zc2k_98dt76xlyaXPf8F vNe4cr9_M3plr6t9tDF9_N.o3gMQmOVbtrVOJAD3cv.726BPco62QUQwYC7YPW9B2ncIa4iVIPWU 8vAkifx9GyZWwF6eX8r3U_htyfcSAPOEbq8VaCrae_a6za4TMBMwTnBHrLoc2z2EBtGpcyi1xWf8 34wTHYRzpU9ZnhDv4uOwxVOe3NGsohW6c9V2MZF9k_0zsGRgaCPGIEUMUTOqLgCJsr4DlOzn5ZMp UqtmFINP.fJjFMQSXUJZgxg9tCYA7npLzgRUS2ooVp6P1mvPPqUHyDvvXow8hHaIJ.SgQugXEl.. gBki14Plml.aEu5GoR6cgaJaPE2tYKHvsQpMBL0w6hCNTxvz4jFJy8s1xxuh_Z2y7LVgmSMMJk75 F4qEumccxTw3JFzGf6ihfhpFvN2VVHBGvX8GmYVAvaQSh18JG.CXabYZbrX6oH0hwhJVbIrZNAC7 soEEzM0MshFs0b2Kv0Y7WXMGYbRN17daKslbER0DvBR9AZ..g9ig6R2XKqNt4fvkq9cU9LnLDtLq zZBmweNndJ3BfhCnp3ij.R.oOzjZMopUqOZghI6hovJ72qz_amtkysAQ8wncN5yLBxbImrL4FZ7j S20cU24Y8aPkfdXrOxvt8dkegRbW1rjNxz3PWL3227tx0iNApL4iKbnb3DWgPuGN42GUD2rC96vA eIsR5PxtUwLNNXy.3xzcY6ezbJS0Xg7HYI5HBPgyt392O89yqXkgDrWH_eRoso.3TKClu_nP18a0 RymCvIyqCsmFdub3iT2KlhFMD5lVTFQpBo_2MWmrCkeMFqt9LKD.RMRk4HowtRYHvRRLP3KLFQKB erfXB4BxVGltN_RDb0XVWyvi9QeuRNfYSTCK9DEnumlycmACdrErk99837ytiA8OeBQVEBbvytPo QzMSfhp.8T6CjGJwJ5jEqEGn2a1.7pO8Z0CGHRLUwpWKf_E2UQOJ_af61OMAwRWe1ARkKQmOCIit A3hRKtRH78QoYdaUB2RTNxEnEkXZIJQRrub_FbPyCUJ7QawM0H5XENBGSiYlgmXwRDYCIJIH6Z2o toYQiJxii21CGhef1BVvkjUw6fZ6Wot7iNWJXp2.oPlCxfc.pWSH4VWFhCmLmfMs.7zSQ2ql.Lsw R.asjc8s9.ZkBt5Z5JmDKSF1Oi3ezGP0Lyy0nh3B9.p2UFekwYi3LKJmO_Vi2sJwtqRHNoS8gFHJ 0iKJEORSX5X6PKxmhH.Q8YFZ6c9aV.VYZFzAtyBpDjJmJv5VI Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:48:16 +0000 Received: by smtp415.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 13ba29c635334a5a5e2dd3985eb46b35; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 14:48:12 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400 From: "Vlad D. Markov" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged Message-Id: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjgXK3cbYz47Yd X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.90 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[aim.com:s=a2048]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[aim.com]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.03)[-1.025]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[aim.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[aim.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.6.135.41:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.38)[-0.379]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:74.6.128.0/21]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[aim.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:26101, ipnet:74.6.128.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[74.6.135.41:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 14:48:19 -0000 On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 07:38:40 -0400 Aryeh Friedman wrote: > https://hackaday.com/2020/09/03/linux-fu-moving-usr/ >=20 > The above is of course trivial in FreeBSD... make the new partition copy > /usr to it, add mount point to in /etc/fstabs and you're done, and mount > it... no systemd or other brain damaged components. >=20 > --=20 > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org Linux is the kernel. Systemd is one of many initialization tools available = for Linux based systems. Enough Linux users want it that it is the default = in many Linux distributions but it isn't required. I enjoy the ease of booting up a Linux kernel using busybox and simple shel= l scripts to get a small dedicated device going. It can be reminicent of ol= d DOS systems. When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be directed at the d= istributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do with it. Vlad --=20 I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be = questioned about their motives.? ? Ralph Waldo Emerson From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 14:49:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599FE3C4BA6 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:49:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjgZH1Tdfz47b4 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:49:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com (mail-qk1-f174.google.com [209.85.222.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: kevans) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E9CD197FB for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 14:49:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kevans@freebsd.org) Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id f142so6456833qke.13 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 07:49:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ha+SsC5nPA37r2bEcgZTSp4w48QViPAvDU7QjOsAvr5VTBufm KMVdJZz/8n/XGy/vDsg0HcOvhXBT3O12ReheY3w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwiniAaL5cEiK2eNx8BBJtKMHDwyxswUc3WYjXA1aLM5h+PmZ9dEMLLB781eETpfRvcVNWNpeyEtzwIX42b4o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:24d5:: with SMTP id m21mr8435177qkn.103.1599230998471; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 07:49:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Evans Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 09:49:46 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 14:49:59 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 6:39 AM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > https://hackaday.com/2020/09/03/linux-fu-moving-usr/ > > The above is of course trivial in FreeBSD... make the new partition copy > /usr to it, add mount point to in /etc/fstabs and you're done, and mount > it... no systemd or other brain damaged components. > Every system has its trade-offs; systemd works well for many, despite whatever views you or I may hold on it. Let's please not make a habit of just insulting other systems like this, though- we want to be treated with a level of respect, and we should treat others the same. Thanks, Kyle Evans From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 15:17:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD323C562B for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:17:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BjhBS2Vmyz4BJ0 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:17:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 328DB4E652 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:17:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <6ff7d598-edd7-8d4f-2dcc-3d6a6b372ab7@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:17:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjhBS2Vmyz4BJ0 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.23)[-0.234]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.23)[0.227]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.33)[0.330]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 15:17:53 -0000 On 2020-09-04 09:48, Vlad D. Markov via freebsd-questions wrote: > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 07:38:40 -0400 > Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> https://hackaday.com/2020/09/03/linux-fu-moving-usr/ >> >> The above is of course trivial in FreeBSD... make the new partition copy >> /usr to it, add mount point to in /etc/fstabs and you're done, and mount >> it... no systemd or other brain damaged components. >> >> -- >> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > Linux is the kernel. Systemd is one of many initialization tools available for Linux based systems. Enough Linux users want it that it is the default in many Linux distributions but it isn't required. > > I enjoy the ease of booting up a Linux kernel using busybox and simple shell scripts to get a small dedicated device going. It can be reminicent of old DOS systems. > > When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be directed at the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do with it. Indeed, Linux [kernel] has little to do with systemd, though is does contain the garbage systemd related code in it. And FreeBSD has nothing to do with systemd at all, so this probably is not the list for systemd rants. I for one am not systemd fan (to use small words), still... Valeri > > Vlad > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 15:36:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6DF3C5DAD for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:36:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjhc33MQvz4D35 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:36:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id a65so6444987wme.5 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 08:36:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Rutshd1Qe0OEXANW9sgKSs5DSD8fFdo7IryngneFW/A=; b=KGiQ//eN4aT3CDlkFqQ/pADfoX4bLfAGNtNmOdPrnoIGGWhoxjjDkwNlkzLoGXQpOZ Gl3NcxrVbs894iYokZwijMJiDsuV6wxkldaQKstJLBXCcqTUy+ObWJfXPZ1Gix3lgl1a louexiJ4CkL4ldtDxiH2LKi5B8Kx2h8k8+pSq+kFY0zsylazXajEx3V5EH4eJOXBlyTe FUDucEVV4Wu3q35VHCHtqhPVFH5Ch15jWpSXLDpLE+4rPoMKr4E4lz7x7xObiOdLcKcU M7wsKTy1dUZ2cTWkuRbwNvnfz+ik/vb41F0h87I5ENod89bzFJT1AtcbATmPBwY9gGOs kuzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Rutshd1Qe0OEXANW9sgKSs5DSD8fFdo7IryngneFW/A=; b=tf/Tjfu0h4Q/Fotf8uhOTN/uCkraFI3EZLNo9Wkt2dhPI97A7gMEV2mzF3tcwyqNZA wuWP1hstwtjAKWUIYUjYudOPFan7A+MCtflbFte8kCjxL3qZ2bYSRYXDr4XIHy7riNgk tBJZ6HNugv6KXy+9nAeDv3C0rREAGJ4ujrbFnYabG4doKthqxF7UzecPUHc2PFYp5O4T /auDeoEE5omJAXFFWXMn965EclCZg4Z7CttvKtPwgrFVvZijPuWXmfnDQ1xahpcPX/xu B62b5Limpbi05d4F0CGNemmTUxiEiedNzq1EY8Le4wvZO3hmI8qrYk/a7w4HSvULjg+i t/1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530bQ9r6FtfkpABsARi5/xuPRep7etEu60Wi4RILEqHV1meNgUfF esro3XtgiET5IHmUaac6C13uqM4ueXVC8SGBg00DikWOQPQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxb0yQo/6WM++ArSzIt4474PCuPxUtrTwaExkJumuLjB89jnfjVo/jPru/4vCS98hVDvK/2Puj0RCxccpPPfXg= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a784:: with SMTP id q126mr7895786wme.38.1599233793083; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Antonio Olivares Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:36:21 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: installed FreeBSD from mfsbsd, but cannot update To: FreeBSD Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjhc33MQvz4D35 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=KGiQ//eN; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of olivares14031@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::333 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=olivares14031@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.73 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.022]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.002]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::333:from]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.29)[0.289]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 15:36:36 -0000 Dear kind FreeBSD users, I have installed freebsd 12.1-RELEASE from mfsbsd with ZFS and I configured SWAP like I wanted to 4GB of SWAP or 2G is not enough. I have experience many crashes. I try to run # freebsd-update fetch and it fails I run # freebsd-update fetch install and it also fails. IT says, if unsupported, FreeBSD must be upgraded by source. I do not have a working copy of pkg and partitioned using GPT with zfs and disklayout looks like ada0 149 GB GPT ada0p1 236 KB freebsd-boot ada0p2 16 GB freebsd-swap ada0p3 133 GB freebsd-zfs I did not run bsdinstall because I just ran example command because I wanted a 16GB swap partition, and I try to run it and it will modify everything. How do I do it so I can run FreeBSD on it and it would work I get error when I run bsdinstall Error No root partition was found. The root FreeBSD partion must have a mountpoint of '/'. < OK > I did not want to use DVD to install. I wanted to do it quicker and with a swap file of 16 GB, the default autozfs and/or auto ufs defaults do not work like I would for them to. When building programs with ports the programs like rust run out of memory. Thank you for suggestions and advice. I want to take different approach. Chromium is crashing randomly and tabs keep crashing. I want to try something different. Antonio From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:12:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328693C72C7 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:12:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjjP33Km6z4G9w for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:12:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjjP13Z5HzFpFg for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 09:12:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1599235925; bh=mC+Wywh885kcr4ZAXVpG44G4gYc8gyMtfM7Z6/B/d6o=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=CfQdXe52yyxh2S0rOoLJ7QFiCNZ0ZDHDpWxC0O+7zFtAwTTINPN5A8M+CyT8D6UMm nj7G6ArLIKDxJFmz1pJp/3IMrtScgDZO7oXUIXIA95zvM5h+bXf5b3BIxVjWIwG8yQ 3j4gPhFfVtiMUf4V0/2rHZGH9STef6V2T8CMPaZg= X-Riseup-User-ID: 551E5EEF10B154CD296D8BB2D313A51C79988B20E5E60BC364DD3BE77C508C27 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BjjP06LGgz8sZv for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 18:12:05 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged Message-ID: <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjjP33Km6z4G9w X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=CfQdXe52; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.90 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.316]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:12:08 -0000 On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: >When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be directed at >the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do with >it. Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not wise if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is quasi the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to me way to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't care about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to search for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems to be satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:13:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3F53C7788 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:13:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BjjQp1qPhz4GYK for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:13:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2B494E655 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:13:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:13:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjjQp1qPhz4GYK X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.33 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.37)[-0.367]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.25)[0.253]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.34)[0.341]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:13:38 -0000 On 2020-09-04 11:12, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: >> When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be directed at >> the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do with >> it. > > Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not wise > if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is quasi > the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. > Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or > something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to me way > to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if > somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't care > about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to search > for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems to be > satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. My sentiment exactly. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:21:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CD33C787B for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:21:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjjbX5G0tz4H2k for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:21:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id b16so7708156ioj.4 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:21:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SKXEGdxSBMZ1P9VJOKGThei2NPWzTrUKdqSCbOF8qDM=; b=asPrCg/GXvqcB2zSONzg55xstpT7UvFO3APiqkR/nsRPfyTeMeuZmLyYlczedfYRSw KlR63p1IPHtp103VpXoRwoK3O8HD7maSVSyf2dWvQa8lIDPtquds3Bjsw5+rUQGnSTnm izuJtDZljZ6AHy0gQnfMc6rZZMeLhu9vCOfs/YvLq4Pi/xF16NiHLMHw4u4T8K/ytwhe oFy+gKHZJVOEM6qw7A9qfgM08v9qopIEm+0+PoH6QuqygjiUBaIV/Vkfz8glBdME5ymG i2q5rsdCmMFVDmAYIdlHoP9xhREaDM/an3KiTvd7WLD6E8UX0HIcMWqiJP/M7jRMgyWG WCKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SKXEGdxSBMZ1P9VJOKGThei2NPWzTrUKdqSCbOF8qDM=; b=odZo14aJTIfJWk1y7OlKJzvG4giyeS2bFpMAOABj1IjChNZQ/qiEkYXTqM3IAsMDXH dRR4tORsxSMER2UUHw9f8I4f0gACTOkW1txXMdBzjY8Ba+FhYGVHQjczJeo4OhMj4UC7 v7hfJEtHTt0KWrR8WcqUDfUm7l0/l17Y+pu2lKDO4McwBie/FuYsvzPjvknDPqbjeWol sMWyVDkA54d0VOn+5xg45idblx4Zq1pQGGE4H2wUDtJMgENgaB2JdjbQhTttWM2302jK pbTwneeuXGfVuHP6z2j+GaEvUlOpuZYQnc7iDLNtZ0Jw8+W6F98jERWE/rtJxAvDn3W3 gj3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530nKaTv65jutfBxCdWhdx+Y16gX5SmZR9tAuMkpEnA5D+PArj3C d4YodjSwjvIewzYXECxDAJlXsUoYLp0ZT6pmY47aj2up6Uc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmSMjU0Iyc99VPBz9q35KU6WvN3l8UdcFnpytd09sWK2EgNiHvPKMXWqrLc7ydwgH9omGkC60jlNvjbajG9L0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2a43:: with SMTP id k3mr7959228iov.83.1599236471694; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:21:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:21:00 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjjbX5G0tz4H2k X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=asPrCg/G; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.984]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.975]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.410]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:21:13 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:13 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-09-04 11:12, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: > >> When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be directed at > >> the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do with > >> it. > > > > Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not wise > > if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is quasi > > the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. > > Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or > > something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to me way > > to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if > > somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't care > > about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to search > > for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems to be > > satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. > > My sentiment exactly. > Except for one problem if you use FreeBSD as a desktop you're forced to deal with the systemd stupidity because Xorg (and wayland) refuse to believe that the entire universe does not use their prefered brain dead OS. So it is not academic if you are using FreeBSD for more than just a server. Even then unless you want to use plain vanilla Apache then you are forced to deal with it to some degree for example even though the Java team for FreeBSD has done a good job removing it as much as possible from openjdk there is still some weirdness there. VirtualBox has not been able to successfully compile anything newer than 5.X because of the same problems. So saying "if you like FreeBSD and hate systemd/linux then use FreeBSD" is not really an option due to the viral nature of systemd and the laziness of developers who use it. TL;dr -- Due to many reasons just ignoring the problem because your on FreeBSD is not an answer -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:25:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A5A3C7E88 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:25:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walterp@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x142.google.com (mail-il1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjjhb2Vk3z4HSl for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:25:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from walterp@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x142.google.com with SMTP id p13so6875273ils.3 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:25:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=JnRqe1FFWfX5GEi2Qfx7oCvJcJQnlhXPUeBE/uuu38k=; b=dm/lqaTPfR38+OyKLeG/q/cOhreyj27mL5MHw/12XOpZBAgXp789LKgfF2EDmHXE44 reilzAZxG8+xuKiuPoeqggvypSVGbtB7unjAHf8Gsen1nODW8oldYeO/QKi4NoYIrCVM yi1Dq8NPEM7mPIThPBb+2v5Z5n3KSTu6NsIktcDofGhtDd7FUfRb111rOZti8TaBEWWF dnoDSV3/OdpnMwWUP64RZN/aKV8xjfQ12vdCA5enrrUjAQWuCt9/qn7u6I+1fWt6NpTN /HrpcGlElVGwXhWG4mSqd9jIJxxP5pz7u7dZISpupn7a+33iVjZ/Tt5/4Pj4rQ+VSkdF 3xgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=JnRqe1FFWfX5GEi2Qfx7oCvJcJQnlhXPUeBE/uuu38k=; b=IPSGnOEPczc2uctWtQUk7RsxiR0ztjUD+LDqWFCObcVY62UuuITlW5izjRzeq8iSsE cSFUo3BLhT+YQpDiQ6lneiWgP6M48FY/jGsVoEUXWx1jWg7k681sQROA6Da560LH6YBG Ue7CAf68gFdYWRXZiPSngKTDigcoSuL5yVQ98qF1a1yWIlvT9HEyD1lIroF50O4Ja8k0 ppJSxwQ8GXa2akCIR4uuFVTz7myW5hwe7l9ccHU5+wUeURnxT6offAwIKqQt5ERPhyNJ 5Wb+RPrG2bEfyvuK9lDYUvgK0kQ4YITu9c35sjV285qwjuB2mg1DhgawhBn9Oo4Sc0id Oyqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oe9/zfm1phLC/Tmj5PmCh2JwBTNxPUaywrYURPkwDaMWh7fzq YNe70XTNVTeUo8otqZX23/9UpaPUoSRnKro90tXJpm8H9VE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwl5Ce1QO9N+MTdI5cJRU3Ec9yJnsgunlHtkeB+hfqI2SymbTtC38iPJdbuOprFbmQnI5eBZ7irp3Uihukwcmo= X-Received: by 2002:a92:ad08:: with SMTP id w8mr9105971ilh.229.1599236734167; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:25:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Walter Parker Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 09:25:23 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 847, Issue 5 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjjhb2Vk3z4HSl X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dm/lqaTP; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of walterp@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=walterp@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.11 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.02)[-1.025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::142:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.09)[-0.092]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:25:35 -0000 > > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 19:52:02 -0700 > From: Kevin Oberman > To: questions@freebsd.org > Subject: UEFI dual boot > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I just received a new laptop, the first to only support UEFI. I have shrunk > the Windows partition and used bsdinstall from the memstick to install > FreeBSD 12.1. The partitioning went fine, except that there are now to efi > partitions, the one previously on the drive for Windows 10 and the one the > install created. > > I now need to learn the magic of configuring boot. I have looked at the > wiki tutorial and the efibootmgr(8) man pae, but I am missing something > basic. > > Should I have two efi partitions? If so, how does the system figure out > which to use? Into which does the efi loader go? > > This is further complicated by not having been able to get the network up, > so I can't upload my configuration. (This is an unrelated issue as I can't > get W10 to connect to my network, either.) > > Anyway, pointers to useful documentation or a cluebat would be appreciated. > -- > Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer > E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com > PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683 > > A clueball: you only need one EFI partition on a system. The FreeBSD UEFI data goes in a subdirectory on the UEFI partition (which is DOS FAT partition). IIRC the directory should be named something like FreeBSD. To boot FreeBSD, you would tell the UEFI firmware to add FreeBSD to the boot list by selecting the FreeBSD directory on the EFI partition. Another solution would be to use someline Refind to setup a multiboot loader rather than using Multiple firmware entries. A quick Google search shows a gist that talks about this at https://gist.github.com/zeising/5d2402d92b4cf421c7402d663b2d9e41#file-gistfile1-txt That link documents how to setup and configure at the UEFI level. Walter -- The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:26:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71EA53C804B for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:26:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Bjjjr6T77z4HP4 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:26:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from point.uchicago.edu (point.uchicago.edu [128.135.52.6]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53F934E676; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:26:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:26:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjjjr6T77z4HP4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.73 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.85)[-0.853]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.950]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.02)[-0.024]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:26:41 -0000 On 2020-09-04 11:21, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:13 PM Valeri Galtsev > > wrote: > > > > On 2020-09-04 11:12, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: > >> When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be > directed at > >> the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do > with > >> it. > > > > Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not wise > > if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is quasi > > the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. > > Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or > > something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to > me way > > to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if > > somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't care > > about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to > search > > for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems > to be > > satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. > > My sentiment exactly. > > > Except for one problem if you use FreeBSD as a desktop you're forced to > deal with the systemd stupidity because Xorg (and wayland) refuse to > believe that the entire universe does not use their prefered brain dead > OS. My workstation and my laptop both run FreeBSD, win XWindow, Mate Desktop Environment. For multiple yeas, and I do not have any problems. But I refuse to participate further in this thread for the reason I stated earlier in this same thread. Valeri >  So it is not academic if you are using FreeBSD for more than just > a server.  Even then unless you want to use plain vanilla Apache then > you are forced to deal with it to some degree for example even though > the Java team for FreeBSD has done a good job removing it as much as > possible from openjdk there is still some weirdness there.   VirtualBox > has not been able to successfully compile anything newer than 5.X > because of the same problems. > > So saying "if you like FreeBSD and hate systemd/linux then use FreeBSD" > is not really an option due to the viral nature of systemd and the > laziness of developers who use it. > > TL;dr -- Due to many reasons just ignoring the problem because your on > FreeBSD is not an answer > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:38:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720CE3C84D0 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:38:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjjzw4WwHz4Htw for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id m1so6880626ilj.10 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:38:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DtH9szmbbuGswnQO3nBcWoeXPIbWqZgj2hkWeo357u4=; b=kzI1keg1h3GdGUYmhBH9EdNPb/EjTqTYH3CcQ7SAA40vyIM9/VAC28pCEQwpfjmxG5 iRFhIOrbGFL7t8gws6Pzu+Ol3dKzA459ZwjTeC7Unj4nAyl+9V4WIzvi5BUuPYMUk88u 7TC6HdNO6aTMGCOM3fMtbHOq0wbOPEqjkhwDwR0OWXai6VvzG5JtAeotIG456jY8Gmbw oajsWjacZej146+PV2MEO/Fhro8rTJVxqhxQpQ8fqXn4130OpAAaJxu3o1lCr7qIzsIa +bQ1J5829l/jLoxZw32LpH1JwWFKfzonbeXn9VnM0LPeAj7Rwl8cDg5b1GgdSDF+DgGs 7SHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DtH9szmbbuGswnQO3nBcWoeXPIbWqZgj2hkWeo357u4=; b=EhuOlDOwcqCRoWKEa4ICwWvX8NO5Gw4WX7dR4YZy0QXTY80M88UCv9hbjRMu9NA/Rf iWQTRu+9tNfY2W4VM/V7dyo9c+KMqYXlYVoAfPFZLs1XeLmk2XvWcXtGaiBGYLUARj7m zwrzWlH17a3LY/26wFoI7xSgXkGOayqE6C1sefB2uO2e4l9Uy1Dek67s28Bopgb4yonn paA6RZAaX+A31Tjhe1AnCR7rRmp4k/WCxd0FUzwKDO2egDKKs4SwIhCvQ76tJu8cGCRh QgBLmTY9tzCWN1tpC9Fvg1/dMbP/YodtQi0IWdO5Jg033p2ueP0Qwi4+UqBe2BsD5rXW 4YBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fmYNIRT7TB6tlaq/oL5wPB3XejHDl5NplKv65F20pbBerOU/7 Gdfrzc3qP3g7Sqem4bh0bL2n8TEOlxDiKMkTREI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyXRzWnmIkb4gFctQHq5uQzgxWlHFg+EK1mn1qxwu8Q/Q8FJqRDPo9FAXOAM3cHHg8UDjUSSFBGR1XfUDbBb4Y= X-Received: by 2002:a92:91ca:: with SMTP id e71mr4960205ill.185.1599237531403; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:38:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:38:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjjzw4WwHz4Htw X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=kzI1keg1; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.985]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.977]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::133:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.421]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:38:53 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:26 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-09-04 11:21, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:13 PM Valeri Galtsev > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 2020-09-04 11:12, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: > > >> When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be > > directed at > > >> the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do > > with > > >> it. > > > > > > Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not > wise > > > if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is > quasi > > > the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. > > > Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or > > > something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to > > me way > > > to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if > > > somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't > care > > > about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to > > search > > > for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems > > to be > > > satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. > > > > My sentiment exactly. > > > > > > Except for one problem if you use FreeBSD as a desktop you're forced to > > deal with the systemd stupidity because Xorg (and wayland) refuse to > > believe that the entire universe does not use their prefered brain dead > > OS. > > My workstation and my laptop both run FreeBSD, win XWindow, Mate Desktop > Environment. For multiple yeas, and I do not have any problems. > > But I refuse to participate further in this thread for the reason I > stated earlier in this same thread. > You are of course free use your system until it becomes unusable but the FreeBSD Xorg team completely disagrees with you on having to make accomidations for systemd even when it isn't technical needed: https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014PedronFreeBSD/XDC-2014_FreeBSD.pdf Same for virtualbox: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=234878 > > Valeri > > > So it is not academic if you are using FreeBSD for more than just > > a server. Even then unless you want to use plain vanilla Apache then > > you are forced to deal with it to some degree for example even though > > the Java team for FreeBSD has done a good job removing it as much as > > possible from openjdk there is still some weirdness there. VirtualBox > > has not been able to successfully compile anything newer than 5.X > > because of the same problems. > > > > So saying "if you like FreeBSD and hate systemd/linux then use FreeBSD" > > is not really an option due to the viral nature of systemd and the > > laziness of developers who use it. > > > > TL;dr -- Due to many reasons just ignoring the problem because your on > > FreeBSD is not an answer > > -- > > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > -- > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Valeri Galtsev > Sr System Administrator > Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics > Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics > University of Chicago > Phone: 773-702-4247 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 19:10:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EE13CCC37 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mason@blisses.org) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (unknown [127.0.1.3]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BjnLR3r11z4TVK for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mason@blisses.org) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 83A0E3CC9DA; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:10:07 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836823CC966 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:10:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mason@blisses.org) Received: from phlegethon.blisses.org (phlegethon.blisses.org [50.56.97.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjnLQ5QVbz4TX1 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:10:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mason@blisses.org) Received: from cocytus.blisses.org (service.blisses.org [64.223.129.151]) by phlegethon.blisses.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4966194D03; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blisses.org (acheron.int.blisses.org [10.0.1.10]) by cocytus.blisses.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E169A1; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:09:58 -0400 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: Kevin Oberman Cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UEFI dual boot Message-ID: <20200904190958.GK18446@blisses.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AXxEqdD4tcVTjWte" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjnLQ5QVbz4TX1 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of mason@blisses.org designates 50.56.97.101 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mason@blisses.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[blisses.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.990]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.58)[-0.583]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19994, ipnet:50.56.0.0/17, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 19:10:07 -0000 --AXxEqdD4tcVTjWte Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 03, 2020 at 07:52:02PM -0700, Kevin Oberman wrote: > Should I have two efi partitions? If so, how does the system figure out > which to use? Into which does the efi loader go? In general, you only want one per drive. It'll have directories for each OS's bootloader. You have a set of boot variables you set with efibootmgr that can reference either partition, but you don't gain anything having more than one. In general, you'll want to take your free space and make the necessary FreeBSD partitions, and just populate a directory in your ESP with FreeBSD's bootloader. You'll want boot variables for both Windows and FreeBSD. There are examples you can pull from here: https://wiki.freebsd.org/MasonLoringBliss/ZFSandGELIbyHAND Don't follow the guide verbatim, as it assumes you only want FreeBSD on the disk and will wipe out anything else it finds, but do look at ESP handling, general partitioning, and its use of efibootmgr, as those are relevant to you. --=20 Mason Loring Bliss (( "In the drowsy dark cave of the mind dreams mason@blisses.org )) build their nest with fragments dropped http://blisses.org/ (( from day's caravan." - Rabindranath Tagore --AXxEqdD4tcVTjWte Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEEXtBZz1axB5rEDCEnrJXcHbvJVUFAl9SkQQACgkQnrJXcHbv JVWlcBAAzSBeBar7LOXCEcHCdSUXOIKFRj/a/fhNFMhsh7uCegqrD82TmTMHdgmi AQAy/cR/F8zGBewh1UFHRhOicvNoHr5Nb1xJszlvMd53JKicm04BNfjKo4bp/YXC i7vbRNDKhm/NBwOpoOKuCzOTLamxD6sm7CHTfkLpJazvO3fKw+4jkGv8NPBzdNuh K/eWTMessMtFhJarf91JQcWqiv7krlg3UZ6rLfGvwPMlhKIZGIjsxYS/JarpkCAW WJLmNpyDiAWewqa/iJLzuQkQkmBsAHKO7ECj86TLMmgP3g0L0e/KLmdXt6d/LfZO CSTgiiRWhR/HzP5YBwM521qiDlaojwGoM3PPVf8DHEli/rEvt3Ur34AhooH4Jnym fkY5+hcktfr+45GT7OX7euUAudQwcZ6OJjA1e57y2/axqnPTehufDx7K87pMPCyt IgNt5+PC5Wa3v48MimerNRPHe2yQDTtoauDxC7hmcx39wl097Jxhmdd5770q4Xvg 2Jp4ctXnG3RlnRPpFTRwmi//Ie6ZEEpbzyavfmKHiCBd7Gp5DHyx41IQbGPTd5tb AFNyrMeR9+NBs4t4YTZXykUMR0yIdn1qDuUbwJ6XQ3MUAlCleMlgYW0sRNYC2/zA 8lpRpw0PFGPnXJ5oS71pUpg2DYMHGF5E/683OgPIH+NI4sEUQns= =Lteo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AXxEqdD4tcVTjWte-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 19:51:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34313CDDCD for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:51:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "www.holgerdanske.com", Issuer "www.holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjpG36s52z4XBZ for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:51:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 (99-100-19-101.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:TLSv1.3:Kx=any:Au=any:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:51:08 -0700 Subject: Re: installed FreeBSD from mfsbsd, but cannot update To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:51:07 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjpG36s52z4XBZ X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.99 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.66)[0.661]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.00)[0.005]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.43)[0.426]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 19:51:24 -0000 On 2020-09-04 08:36, Antonio Olivares wrote: > Dear kind FreeBSD users, > > I have installed freebsd 12.1-RELEASE from mfsbsd I assume mfsbsd meets its author's needs. If it does not meet your needs, perhaps your should contact the author: https://mfsbsd.vx.sk/ Or, perhaps you should use an official FreeBSD installer: https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html For "Partitioning", choose "Auto (ZFS)" and you will be able to set the swap size. As there is no obvious way to set the boot or root sizes, consider installing onto a small SSD -- to facilitate backups, restores, and migrations. I find that 16 GB devices are sufficient for lightweight graphical workstations. > with ZFS and I > configured SWAP like I wanted to 4GB of SWAP or 2G is not enough. I > have experience many crashes. If your machine is swapping heavily, you need more memory. > I try to run # freebsd-update fetch and it fails Please consider this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Technical support requires facts. Always install SSH, so that you can use ssh(1) and/or sshfs(1). If SSH fails, use a USB flash drive and "sneaker net". As a last resort, use a camera and transcribe. Copy and paste exact and complete console sessions into support requests and replies -- prompt, command entered, and output obtained. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 19:52:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DAD3CE01A for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:52:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x742.google.com (mail-qk1-x742.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::742]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjpHf621dz4XCX for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:52:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x742.google.com with SMTP id b14so7529304qkn.4 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=8CxluLwNzagIQjmN6y27eyijuLB7nOGH4xI3FXK6ec8=; b=ZsfgufUn6RnthUuhy8CPqhjPPrfN9R449ouAUvOvnEs10zMhUvg+GlzVgiNv+sRaIv b0+QcE4sDkM4WkhRVRI2dhZyuBf5T4z4ib5wj+dffFOZzdNO28EQU7Ea0qTcr2pqFo8T H45v96Y7NyhLsvzAG/uiJju4NvLsXDfVikSsg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=8CxluLwNzagIQjmN6y27eyijuLB7nOGH4xI3FXK6ec8=; b=l1kb/Bn4/GV7bAuB9KTdaJwURoxbmdW77qSK4R1k9pmh5JyN7JIufwylGg0h1ISTOW MxjvV7iDWU1BdNxu7UKDQ1kokrMfztNQtloiFC4XIZfSp/EkdFhMqGv7FxLp18S6wYJW DxGjR05R1w8+nm4irdELaHx3BryuG+L+wuKr9W8fmHw2Kev+wGDezU2JIJ3qQ16OzuRy rpcctKz0FopkZZrnn4Ty2eOPjH2AHbjbf80rYglIzLKs/09Vu4zYsZZRmhNiMPEkVfAB T3Re7aWUDFrO5di8hNTNWwrm6899Mfl8K+ldqyktEqtbMW5HijgvtKanuODGZoXVg8pI l0ew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533XFTeXwHBsd1an5/uEFKYPMmjSmU/n3Uf8pYAwGXnc16u5Gb+b uGG5BvIYmtWaEXyKOEXq3/SZzjWmmlstEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCKOvSz2WoL9FnnCuVN5mV1mgM1YBhD5yeQEa4YdyXgfOBNu93idpA2WsevtOPyVx2rJkefA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:13e8:: with SMTP id h8mr5455898qkl.322.1599248675297; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 12:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b43sm5318361qtk.84.2020.09.04.12.44.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 04 Sep 2020 12:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjp621J6lznbP for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:44:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.4 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 15:44:19 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged Message-ID: <20200904154419.23c5333b@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/OaEpMeRf=rt2Gxyw2pgrjI9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjpHf621dz4XCX X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=ZsfgufUn; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::742 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.19 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.22)[-0.219]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.969]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.025]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::742:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 19:52:47 -0000 --Sig_/OaEpMeRf=rt2Gxyw2pgrjI9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:38:40 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: >You are of course free use your system until it becomes unusable but >the FreeBSD Xorg team completely disagrees with you on having to make >accomidations for systemd even when it isn't technical needed: >https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014PedronFreeBSD/XDC-2014_FreeBS= D.pdf That document is dated circa 2014, so I question how relative it is in today environment. In any case, there are those who can solve the most complex problems in the universe while listening to Johann Sebastian Bach and those who cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I think it is apparent what we are dealing with here. --=20 Jerry --Sig_/OaEpMeRf=rt2Gxyw2pgrjI9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl9SmRMACgkQOHMGOIfe xWTVCgf/QQZCpvg65qhdhIaF4WDnsGHXZGhhlPeyNY1tWkr1MA1LAaQkIUofKQ44 Y+/Hpk0wUZSWTHS8XB9HthLVob1q5Ce7k11fg7KLY6n0xlAqX3UBrkasoyVrwBlV SgMCg8wGumd4fUVarbVAouAYAvnnyNP3FKoO7kJje00xLP+AdH5bb39lfG2knF95 ScupZPWSrZ1+GOgu9NmIMtDN110TWzZRlen+Y8p1h+GOSAUt/JCVypjQAZgS56Kf Ouax943jhg+lDqGHIUqjJwHhFVpgMFZ7rRCNdV30ZRiMrGl2ZuYcI9F9KvElClz7 us5wYjqj2eLEeO8Q3MN24LM1vn1HWA== =M/na -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/OaEpMeRf=rt2Gxyw2pgrjI9-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 20:13:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEE7A3CE3F6 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 20:13:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjplw4fkrz4Xqk for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 20:13:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kob6558@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id e23so7002579otk.7 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 13:13:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8drwIkmpH29yv4qUhpdUWXZ7JAYP1zH+5kD9A9J2u3Y=; b=tOjATXB+l+WLs2A0kdcQFbM83FwlCDIlUFX1iZHPo57Ofkwzy9diFeuAKRgdqf7NoU Kb5iov4Wd9WdM/lKdX+8DT2aPxoJBgkoZ/uI5eNqasoRBZh9sLjh+TGa2IZX5lJz8eEV DRK08a8Rgyz0MPBoolcOOmABcsNMGiYGKQb47opC0z2Vw3aBEV0kDBPUZLCm/yPhsvCI I8lbxGoVsmTnPXhbIb5WGPpC6Gyx4EqqoTrHWFWmLEd41JZXBG4mz30p0hl5ZK3PrESE U4R2kIMT4jhheYIiEYm9puDO93ygKfMVqdKM8px5xpxulIqP+be7jqoaWH9Jj7l4OtWN V/yw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8drwIkmpH29yv4qUhpdUWXZ7JAYP1zH+5kD9A9J2u3Y=; b=KjJBNSKSI/PICAIoCiAh5yLywAVwSvqB/T8ZMR0J+y991YXz6OFcgxeLMtHY2PdckX 17qjQaoG2eYL0NQBrJMjdMLg8aB/1AMgpZVHO53HE1I0Tt0CYr5oFbNr9yf/dEN+deNq XbHPpy60nTL65QWYhNz797NIGGSx06fz/ZvZfsol1MnXyw6g578iO+1UpOkCZQ6IsJNU xkUDA2/eTZTM6vjjW1iZ1n0KGPtk/RyQ57CJbv8kKvugPZa8Q3pv43p8i7mRMYGXpqdj hipPuhn7omz0fSDUZ1GUgK4xyqr89FVjhmuyUUj0WxPUDMeDW8dq1LThV03ICa1aiPTX qmHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533dIBpZQ8TvZjyxsw76DYOF04DYqUh3bDHKtXaK+sMsURUWYPZ8 hKRl7WtkdVg6GJ0ufM3xTm8H+wmfqXbv+3mOos8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9a7oyyLsNyOAkPGrGKNeaOh+jJKbLtCCvWw9qNwErR0fV48y4Bx2JfxtbWx8mHuMxdtF9IJw00W/pEAW8tso= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:ea5:: with SMTP id 34mr6892314otj.199.1599250427336; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Oberman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 13:13:31 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 847, Issue 5 To: Walter Parker Cc: Mailinglists FreeBSD X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjplw4fkrz4Xqk X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=tOjATXB+; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kob6558@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kob6558@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.68 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rkoberman@gmail.com,kob6558@gmail.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rkoberman@gmail.com,kob6558@gmail.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.988]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 20:13:49 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 9:25 AM Walter Parker wrote: > > > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 19:52:02 -0700 > > From: Kevin Oberman > > To: questions@freebsd.org > > Subject: UEFI dual boot > > Message-ID: > > < > CAN6yY1trVp2Sj2b1XDx1bzL9DDpY+Ap1rns9Dt4e9A6k+gzMCg@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > I just received a new laptop, the first to only support UEFI. I have > shrunk > > the Windows partition and used bsdinstall from the memstick to install > > FreeBSD 12.1. The partitioning went fine, except that there are now to > efi > > partitions, the one previously on the drive for Windows 10 and the one > the > > install created. > > > > I now need to learn the magic of configuring boot. I have looked at the > > wiki tutorial and the efibootmgr(8) man pae, but I am missing something > > basic. > > > > Should I have two efi partitions? If so, how does the system figure out > > which to use? Into which does the efi loader go? > > > > This is further complicated by not having been able to get the network > up, > > so I can't upload my configuration. (This is an unrelated issue as I > can't > > get W10 to connect to my network, either.) > > > > Anyway, pointers to useful documentation or a cluebat would be > appreciated. > > -- > > Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer > > E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com > > PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683 > > > > > > A clueball: you only need one EFI partition on a system. > The FreeBSD UEFI data goes in a subdirectory on the UEFI partition > (which is DOS FAT partition). IIRC the directory should be named > something like FreeBSD. > To boot FreeBSD, you would tell the UEFI firmware to add FreeBSD to > the boot list by selecting the FreeBSD directory on the EFI partition. > > Another solution would be to use someline Refind to setup a multiboot > loader rather than using Multiple firmware entries. > > A quick Google search shows a gist that talks about this at > > https://gist.github.com/zeising/5d2402d92b4cf421c7402d663b2d9e41#file-gistfile1-txt > > That link documents how to setup and configure at the UEFI level. > > > Walter > Thanks, Walter! That is exactly what I was looking for. Clearly written and the case is exactly like mine... making a new Windows system dual boot FreeBSD. -- Kevin Oberman, Part time kid herder and retired Network Engineer E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: D03FB98AFA78E3B78C1694B318AB39EF1B055683 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 20:20:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847B83CE7AC for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 20:20:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjpvx4WGjz4YK2 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 20:20:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id m17so8414025ioo.1 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 13:20:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZXzII2Y4SHcWHW8rAjGLxoaZO8t6GY9v0Hye8MLjgQg=; b=jZLfzdkZaK5ti2DLDezVZuhWNFb/u31sHX9tgmlk7JKeWTF2s1FN5a1Opkybce7tH9 acvz9bb1mvEhrOm3FUvWf6M//LiIytx8D26NiSESJJK77znEajbiWgtUYzH+ftBuqawT QIdzSDRMlzzYYUHwq/mw4btc9zAeM1pUyyvZbldPmH1Eo5ziIIU5eT+laQ+N0GdWKjvo ftnIVbtTMpSHubeHoPpnuIgIntjtuY6JhEzNc14OU+A56IbXovYUcnSEbAUcDnuZSgD9 /PKfQnWFyMo/477ksV9mUoJQ6xkGZn5TRPlQMRhtEhPMYn7xCVof8xNPVqwtXazoiBo/ /PuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ZXzII2Y4SHcWHW8rAjGLxoaZO8t6GY9v0Hye8MLjgQg=; b=LBOB3yTLjxQ1WLxwvT2Dyb77oWVGkO1XPFC6VGh4o/UMRc75K7nocVzx1wC6rCVw3+ svicqoEnZGYR9xOECUi52trS7YcCYBVXLzB0pMH7pHgux80GCjopDixynxSxf+k2EyiE khu4zytKFMnbIOCem2bhf0hQaARAijGqB4lgiqO2WrMmdCWPJDJaN7p4zI1uu3rsgaBB FOkS5lALYoHDbOaNLCWcXVSteG4lB2vnNityzqrYZeUC1eqx98M8lregOIrpS/mFgTNY a5ETsjMvuKwiKIxzIWRHXiG/0eqshNRbIICuIQXKuhDhE0H+6LXzXyHlENU6lbbNfzqD E9pQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nCOAXd/qn1E5eutaQfBtjMLvmJcLA+eDSsE++3oAfYLXeccda qW8JX30dYHxJUNGV9erlKi6ZDKUCLqvMcHTqwFPfH1gCqag= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxH4nzsprj0b+Bc3o4JzmP90tbMy2TANRYKdpX+xQRoemVC33R1NONxIrV7683VqvYGb6fe8qL4xGf1yVjf5FA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9701:: with SMTP id h1mr9005345iol.36.1599250844466; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 13:20:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200904154419.23c5333b@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200904154419.23c5333b@scorpio.seibercom.net> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:20:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: User Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjpvx4WGjz4YK2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=jZLfzdkZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.01)[-1.011]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.65)[-0.652]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 20:20:46 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jerry wrote: > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:38:40 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated: > >You are of course free use your system until it becomes unusable but > >the FreeBSD Xorg team completely disagrees with you on having to make > >accomidations for systemd even when it isn't technical needed: > > > https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014PedronFreeBSD/XDC-2014_FreeBSD.pdf > > That document is dated circa 2014, so I question how relative it is in > today environment. In any case, there are those who can solve the most > complex problems in the universe while listening to Johann Sebastian > Bach and those who cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. I think > it is apparent what we are dealing with here. > Since I have Xfce4 running, on the first try, just fine (which does require linuxisms) then I am pretty sure you're not referring to me. But, if you were I would have to ask why give an answer that begs the question of why do jerks always have to answer questions? And if you read the details of the document you will see that the issue was a generic issue dealing with headerless login (needing to find an alternative workalike for systemd-logind). There is no evidence anywhere that issue was resolved without having to find such a workaround that I can find. Also a google search for "systemd" vs. freebsd returns many articles about the sure chaos caused by > > -- > Jerry > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Sep 5 00:58:18 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE183D4D80 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 00:58:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wm1-x341.google.com (mail-wm1-x341.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::341]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjx490Pg8z4qLC for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 00:58:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olivares14031@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wm1-x341.google.com with SMTP id a65so8380584wme.5 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 17:58:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rqim2/xPT/nI1Njx5QroDb0fjFzqO8H9934kr8nloMA=; b=TCtUvqz39bxJdD8sttkb2w67DSDGj1MKIfFNqJnzXh8uPFLNK5zjJsW6J9TgBqhLc7 WIBoY0vDEBzSPyvDfAqBrWfv24rRdN/UOBUbAiEkexR9P6qhy5fKqVTapqlpdz6HTuXi 8DdCaoiXZn7KDBdFYvKr0uXMeTG/VkufRne8UqVVbv8fHuo/qZP3GqhZ92oOvs83ruud 5BUQf70/Ks7yiYtT64qLZw9z2ylvV+ZpR9WDk464ZiNUT7rKnrn9o0jhl47ZqJt3O7t7 abVptiwMN0I1AuB7sSG90Mu0qwF7bUCbaxMCJjs5R3UOxZ488UI7A5woukCC51e0PQGS Kwkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rqim2/xPT/nI1Njx5QroDb0fjFzqO8H9934kr8nloMA=; b=dSNT+N/XgNNVEtsD2ge2Ptzqh2afXxIsfdOZvotBcr/FTCp5hfOMi0sBZsV9pFT+h9 X+5kMd0Y7oVLULx9rk6AnHFq2W3tD2vIeN2si6FxIt8w7K1IzJZ0bUm6BVbhMWrKm3CX Qas2UoOuIubDTss8sCCMCBKOMixvrQ85ZWMtzdZVSXF/gDyPRqrH0/T6vr3gMKjQO+yL x88jIoBZENdnhhH6MzVL3Kxe67P8dSD6ztyzrm/MHim6Z1+TCSgV91UoSHBc6WWGPpz6 BBCcEMCVBUmK7pfyLJpJzyEsIL1FxJSByJs/iZrj8WQVn3o7XrkRJ+4NMH4Eau46xGya 9hLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530+I1B89skRLKgb3/LGP17gdgKQr0GmXNSzdfAsNqAobuwwrcj1 FiXu3vp52vH7qbhr3MzyLAVxPuUgDzf7eLe8zx9KMm5n X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcuEOPfjXItS8fxMjxdvhc4jUAbby5T5ifkcGZNXNO+HoJRj6j7lpdwM++5aje8ONZT5RA9r8+4Dumi9J2gKY= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a784:: with SMTP id q126mr9594939wme.38.1599267495290; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 17:58:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a1c:3243:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 17:58:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Antonio Olivares Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:58:14 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: installed FreeBSD from mfsbsd, but cannot update To: David Christensen Cc: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjx490Pg8z4qLC X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=TCtUvqz3; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of olivares14031@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::341 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=olivares14031@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.52 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.983]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2a00:1450:4864:20::341:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.54)[-0.541]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 00:58:18 -0000 On Friday, September 4, 2020, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-09-04 08:36, Antonio Olivares wrote: >> >> Dear kind FreeBSD users, >> >> I have installed freebsd 12.1-RELEASE from mfsbsd > > I assume mfsbsd meets its author's needs. If it does not meet your needs, perhaps your should contact the author: > > https://mfsbsd.vx.sk/ > > > Or, perhaps you should use an official FreeBSD installer: > > https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/announce.html > > > For "Partitioning", choose "Auto (ZFS)" and you will be able to set the swap size. > > > As there is no obvious way to set the boot or root sizes, consider installing onto a small SSD -- to facilitate backups, restores, and migrations. I find that 16 GB devices are sufficient for lightweight graphical workstations. > > >> with ZFS and I >> configured SWAP like I wanted to 4GB of SWAP or 2G is not enough. I >> have experience many crashes. > > If your machine is swapping heavily, you need more memory. > > >> I try to run # freebsd-update fetch and it fails > > Please consider this: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > > > Technical support requires facts. Always install SSH, so that you can use ssh(1) and/or sshfs(1). If SSH fails, use a USB flash drive and "sneaker net". As a last resort, use a camera and transcribe. Copy and paste exact and complete console sessions into support requests and replies -- prompt, command entered, and output obtained. > > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Dear Sir, I appreciate your help. I could not get it to work because one partition needs to be root "/" and it was named "zfs-root" or similar. I will have to try again. I had installed before using mfsbsd, but I used guided and autozfs and swap was 2 or 4 GB, but en I tried to build rust for firefox I ran out of swap space. Machine has 8GB of ram, but nonetheless crashed. I wanted to create a 16 GB swap partition to build rust Firefox and other power hungry apps that require it. I erased the hard drive several times and in the end I blew the hardrivw and machine does not power up with the hard drive. So I will need to get another disk and try again. I ran tests and hard drive passed on to the /dev/null . Thank you for your help. Best Regards, Antonio From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Sep 5 02:19:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBBD3D6B7A for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 02:19:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjysm3gMnz4v9K for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 02:19:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf-mardorf@riseup.net) Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjysk0pPQzDsYw for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:19:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1599272362; bh=NkazbZ1pXnnDYFsHCk6i18cZRbmo7ED5sw3Q/tCGN44=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=MUlaj2+nFPY5E3DHNRBUTFY0WjVkx9XzTmA1TnFIF71CzM+OvdBmRxVBx8ggOkO0B V4DPRtZitSyH7CRleswesR05RgWBYcCTWpLM1Zrbf+9fINTYyN9n0mEGI/6mmGR3lW SfKZSjV3Q25H/BkcnuPmgxSoeuiz4rQ7QUJl9K5g= X-Riseup-User-ID: 4C3E422CAE625B5435786E409069056B630F33C97B70A388A1AE38338932E327 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Bjysj2zdpzJqdK for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 04:19:23 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged Message-ID: <20200905041923.0d69c21d@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200904154419.23c5333b@scorpio.seibercom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjysm3gMnz4v9K X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=MUlaj2+n; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ralf-mardorf@riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ralf-mardorf@riseup.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.42 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[riseup.net:s=squak]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.988]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[198.252.153.129:from]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[riseup.net:dkim]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[riseup.net:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[riseup.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.83)[-0.834]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.993]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16652, ipnet:198.252.153.0/24, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[198.252.153.129:from] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 02:19:25 -0000 On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:20:33 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >Also a google search for "systemd" vs. freebsd returns many >articles about the sure chaos caused by https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/echo-chamber From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Sep 5 05:42:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E300D3E0C63 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 05:42:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bk3NB03qjz3yBg for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 05:42:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id e14so8210538ile.6 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 22:42:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cGD3DupNDWIx2WAXpRwSbKSMw2cqpfEA6Jk1rzogk2I=; b=VUkpS64JErWa2r7XBKbPwWINU+7d1oexlJBb4RnP4/hBE/KaqNXtxwTaj7AlMboqdk eFGfyB/aYR5ROD4ClZlzy3apDhn5zK01h4tv+IdkmQi8+tEzP28/f9YRaYDi2Zok7UzV Ux7TH4y0ZSwjvfHU4wo9cPQAe1cg0607Yy5H9WP3oFktqSCF1uTjcCAH+LxeSiMRHWnh EDAku9furH3y29IDe2oc5satgwR7jbhTTZeqTv2qzCwJubQUSkwOVs/1EiqnmbrjRpwG YkF/3kZQjjUNHnpo8Ozggy+bg9YHTyQXF+3On10V/sgOlqNKHzmzUPhIIOiXJqUyeu85 WCxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cGD3DupNDWIx2WAXpRwSbKSMw2cqpfEA6Jk1rzogk2I=; b=Pb8NXvPsvmZsAIYeBWLw7ViXxUSl/jQwxpegmoqz/n87BJmNJQzk39Efue3Rh7iJna 5MmKPDIJ+Y2wvWw/rb46fLjts5FgbkhRJxRdMU1zsOUrsidlTK42YwRg9eyb2FGG5vGg RdPKRTWmoAmM8YK40TkAt18c8vXRlz4ZJXjJ52InB9wH6mN0KJkzQL6ioL6GT7KPVACY 7CaCqexvIL5FhvB3zisceHHduntVIlo0oqoVeM4RveyALGEG4Y+O0wMVnuiDUpAaXNDt QonrOGbxXrGDGShpGJJY3ZYO3SLZcbaV+bQ+e4S22+KTNR7XC1AS5e77g/bKCOUiUnmB DwrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YRCFx96SvhY6bWlMkWvu9Md7PYpFZxR5pnjKyR+TUpIKGy18k 8nUYJ1FyO8RhWdMjgs8MmmtlJADh5jUXgvK2lgU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzsL5Zw+wT2GuJUOIAnNs9y0lBGjS0eo68+VUN8Te6eCPpcmK6z6SeYjCroQv6ZFfRRyCJmX9dcAcdlIKqvQcY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:740b:: with SMTP id p11mr10712829ilc.119.1599284552042; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 22:42:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200904154419.23c5333b@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200905041923.0d69c21d@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200905041923.0d69c21d@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 01:42:20 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bk3NB03qjz3yBg X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=VUkpS64J; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.05 / 15.00]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.07)[-1.071]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.977]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.003]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 05:42:35 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 10:19 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:20:33 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >Also a google search for "systemd" vs. freebsd returns many > >articles about the sure chaos caused by > > > https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/echo-chamber Thanks for confirming the perfect present for you then: https://www.amazon.com/Lazy-Didnt-Read-funny-take/dp/B07L1YWJ7Q Reason: If you had actually done the search more than half the results were critical of FreeBSD people for being overly sensitive on the issue while there were less than 10% that talked about real issues not largely gut level reactions on either side of the debate. > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Sep 5 10:57:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334FC3C8937 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 10:57:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: from mail-qk1-x744.google.com (mail-qk1-x744.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::744]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BkBMP1rhTz4LSd for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 10:57:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jerry@seibercom.net) Received: by mail-qk1-x744.google.com with SMTP id w16so8850377qkj.7 for ; Sat, 05 Sep 2020 03:57:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=seibercom.net; s=google; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:reply-to :organization:mime-version; bh=7CkvjFx0CAnDckfXFI60odzL/Nk5ZCkMmdRPbD6VR88=; b=kPeUs8f4Ep4SMxkFCBh3BX2l74PgOC3oqK1HKQGpv5fqrAR8M5IrH2PvafuNwVYN46 b+/vn69P7Hzu+fV1potB/7BzoAbO3SIi329Km4TF5w+0V4hcWl+NXkKb7uFK9x6d4ny3 YhmJtupM8M4DDBHvlb535ao0C4mV3L0ndyNPI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:reply-to:organization:mime-version; bh=7CkvjFx0CAnDckfXFI60odzL/Nk5ZCkMmdRPbD6VR88=; b=BdefPEqYfPzakPjV4Gwa0s283jJKDNXLUtKQTtYJDSSGDOqsf3mXVY3hNLBPL/+dR3 nixEzSpFLB42YDQYVLsKmj72KIj+iV1cUehs3ydyi8TWkx+8SOCzO1FYz9hQH2AMShYw +KF/AvVp5uYp3yTX3PAjqfzZQIXUihkYNWhoQKrmdXEBAGa8o2B2KUx9C150CuDUbtlS cWAd0ba4hgLfXUhrwbp7DpiKyaywgNchoeGL4FD9GQX74S/mAvXEQdEwXB3sSy7LVx7q 2/anpmCP42R4fRCIwgLSdLUiR+L4J8myln/+eCtXA1UQkQQVnk13AAjomzpMQokNk0SF yl8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533vvK/KZ5/z8P2tBRLjynS+bqh9IlMzXczm8B0N5Vy0sraDKqGD tctyrZdBkwjhBpxlOBCfmr+n9FEQXOFF7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx2IIalqUNpPfK4LzNNYrmy/KOZ9NcZw9LrfU9G/9yKrOo5jexMPrE/QN75fDtUn53caGqBnA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:e50e:: with SMTP id e14mr11518684qkg.323.1599303439731; Sat, 05 Sep 2020 03:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (cpe-174-109-231-236.nc.res.rr.com. [174.109.231.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j8sm6732182qth.90.2020.09.05.03.57.18 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 05 Sep 2020 03:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BkBMK3szFzp3V for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 06:57:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.4 at scorpio.seibercom.net Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2020 06:57:09 -0400 From: Jerry To: "User Questions" Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged Message-ID: <20200905065709.075c27ff@scorpio.seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200905041923.0d69c21d@archlinux> References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200904154419.23c5333b@scorpio.seibercom.net> <20200905041923.0d69c21d@archlinux> Reply-To: "User Questions" Organization: seibercom NET X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.5 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd11.4) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_/v2ZJcQC8JZCR0o7p5gzzyGy"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BkBMP1rhTz4LSd X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=seibercom.net header.s=google header.b=kPeUs8f4; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jerry@seibercom.net designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::744 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jerry@seibercom.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.18 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[seibercom.net:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.27)[-0.275]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; REPLYTO_EQ_TO_ADDR(5.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[174.109.231.236:received]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.91)[-0.911]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[seibercom.net:s=google]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.03)[-1.032]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[seibercom.net]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::744:from]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 10:57:22 -0000 --Sig_/v2ZJcQC8JZCR0o7p5gzzyGy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 04:19:23 +0200, Ralf Mardorf stated: >On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:20:33 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>Also a google search for "systemd" vs. freebsd returns many >>articles about the sure chaos caused by =20 > >https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/echo-cham= ber I believe you could safely add these to that list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://docxmd.com/illusory-superiority/ --=20 Jerry --Sig_/v2ZJcQC8JZCR0o7p5gzzyGy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEIQb/tTwl6I1ueEVtOHMGOIfexWQFAl9TbwUACgkQOHMGOIfe xWQ+sgf+JqvBcDTpa6WabsUXgYNOb+e5w5+/Poo0vz5c/9E0KsSn/lOb+yI02eQW go6wTdPbzeEoD3IbjC48HU2Orh6h0k6fUe2DiqxJvvop0ocUU6/7mfd6HwEaX/uC Wu+0UgmLJ+gV3Fihcb5KekDJDdCMdm+H5E30iV7qgxw7KvECpDUg/TpWL53wFKfZ DMoK0gYi1sajwrZh0b+9lDG630znzWPs034CElmAi0+AXEka3iZ6eLbuBpYEfnO4 C4OOiWE+x4/eyH/vB/MIM2qOmh+lTll1n7SUanMb0w/v/Gm0wD1gPJHQCPp2TQWz sXNfeJXTr8ZQwHTQDtgU2fyWu0q02w== =Ufkg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/v2ZJcQC8JZCR0o7p5gzzyGy-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Sep 5 16:49:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718403D086D for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 16:49:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) Received: from electron.ecohosting.co.uk (electron.ecohosting.co.uk [185.53.59.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BkL9x6JJYz4dRg for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2020 16:49:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=milibyte.co.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=NiAVYCMHpRlGGX3o4q9iYlPW4DCerKaw2esqV8DqU9I=; b=PxT8WKPNKH/6XQ1061oZnhrqAO 4Qc7IEm0aOl0pvc36lxveu7mytLMNO8NXynHAZ4jnpsI2nRMhxGca+bqjPmUc0z9XT7SqPFw3Np3q 1ZlAUSJz5C96/qKMqCer7lkm4cIVncvdnM/pE5ZVZb77z5f4GY0Qas6X7B7wD3+8IOeaRiZkNy0S2 amyDdv2x2ESol44ulBKavJu1pcWI8k3QEkiK1qLXNxUeZ/Ib083BpjWwQjIdsbT8LagAhx+StV9+q tb/GUJGYamfFfxzR0GlOnovLCN35hsTet0+LD03WgQxUXwM7c7VIL0U8H9gwlVwl67iiesv4QXJUN Cuy6jhDw==; Received: from 82-71-56-121.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk ([82.71.56.121]:37697 helo=curlew.milibyte.co.uk) by electron.ecohosting.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kEbNe-000CKc-48 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2020 17:49:34 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=curlew.localnet) by curlew.milibyte.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.94) (envelope-from ) id 1kEbNd-0002Br-3r for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2020 17:49:33 +0100 From: Mike Clarke To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Exim closes connection when negotiating SSL handshake Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 17:49:33 +0100 Message-ID: <15996093.ofW7TPSIZ6@curlew> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on curlew.milibyte.co.uk); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - electron.ecohosting.co.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - freebsd.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - milibyte.co.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: electron.ecohosting.co.uk: authenticated_id: mailpool@milibyte.co.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: electron.ecohosting.co.uk: mailpool@milibyte.co.uk X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BkL9x6JJYz4dRg X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=milibyte.co.uk header.s=default header.b=PxT8WKPN; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk designates 185.53.59.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jmc-freebsd2@milibyte.co.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[milibyte.co.uk:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.04)[-1.044]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_X_SOURCE(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[milibyte.co.uk]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.01)[-1.014]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[milibyte.co.uk:+]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.30)[-0.302]; HAS_X_GMSV(0.00)[mailpool@milibyte.co.uk]; HAS_X_ANTIABUSE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:12488, ipnet:185.53.56.0/22, country:GB]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; HAS_X_AS(0.00)[mailpool@milibyte.co.uk] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2020 16:49:43 -0000 A couple of months ago I had a problem with exim after it was upgraded exim- sa-exim from 4.93 to 4.94. When attempting to send mail exim would close th= e=20 connection while trying to establish an SSL connection. I've now managed get 4.94 working but I would appreciate any advice on=20 whether what I've done is a valid modification to my configuration or if it= 's=20 just a lucky workaround which works for now but might come back and bite me= =20 after some future upgrade. The original problem was that exim would immediately close the connection o= n=20 starting to negotiate an SSL handshake. It would then periodically retry to= =20 send the email and eventually succeed but only after an unpredictable numbe= r=20 of retries, for example one message succeeded on the second attempt after 3= 0=20 minutes but a different one needed seven retries over three and a half hour= s. I posted the problem in an earlier thread here and received a number of=20 useful comments which helped me to track down where things were going wrong= =20 but didn't enable me to determine why it was happening or to resolve the=20 problem so as a temporary workaround I reverted to 4.93. The full thread is= =20 at https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2020-June/ 290344.html=20 Things have now moved on and a recent upgrade to perl has led to a dependen= cy=20 issue which I temporarily worked around by adding an entry for libperl.so. 5.30 in /etc/libmap.conf but this has prompted me to try to fix the problem= =20 properly before any future dependency issues create a more serious problem. The following extract from truss output for exim 4.94 while attempting to=20 send an email covers the SSL negotiation 3216: read(9,"##\n## ca-root-nss.crt -- Bundl"...,131072) =3D 131072 (0x20= 000) After about 40 lines reading /etc/ssl/cert.pem it continues with: 3216: read(9,0x8011adec0,131072) =3D 0 (0x0) 3216: close(9) =3D 0 (0x0) 3216: issetugid() =3D 0 (0x0) 3216: setitimer(0,{ 0.000000, 300.000000 },{ 0.000000, 0.000000 }) =3D 0 (= 0x0) 3216: mmap(0x0,24576,PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE,MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANON,-1,0x0) =3D= =20 34385039360 (0x801821000) 3216: mmap(0x0,24576,PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE,MAP_PRIVATE|MAP_ANON,-1,0x0) =3D= =20 34385063936 (0x801827000) 3216: getpid() =3D 3216=20 (0xc90) 3216: getpid() =3D 3216=20 (0xc90) 3216: getpid() =3D 3216=20 (0xc90) 3216: getpid() =3D 3216=20 (0xc90) 3216: getpid() =3D 3216=20 (0xc90) 3216: getpid() =3D 3216=20 (0xc90) 3216: write(7,"\^V\^C\^A\^A%\^A\0\^A!\^C\^Ck"...,298) ERR#57 'Socket is no= t=20 connected' A similar section for 4.93 follows the same pattern but ends with=20 88001: write(7,"\^V\^C\^A\^A%\^A\0\^A!\^C\^C\M-`"...,298) =3D 298 (0x12a) =2E.. and goes on to successfully send the email. When I look in the debug output from exim 4.94 for details of the SSL=20 negotiation I see the following=20 12:14:25 48240 Connecting to electron.ecohosting.co.uk [185.53.59.181]:465= =20 =2E.. 185.53.59.181 in hosts_try_fastopen? yes (matched "*") 12:14:25 48240 TFO mode connection attempt to 185.53.59.181, 0 data 12:14:25 48240 connected 12:14:25 48240 =E2=95=ADconsidering: $primary_hostname 12:14:25 48240 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80expanding: $primary_hostname 12:14:25 48240 =E2=95=B0=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80resul= t: curlew.milibyte.co.uk 12:14:25 48240 185.53.59.181 in hosts_avoid_esmtp? no (option unset) 12:14:25 48240 185.53.59.181 in hosts_require_ocsp? no (option unset) 12:14:25 48240 185.53.59.181 in hosts_request_ocsp? yes (matched "*") 12:14:25 48240 setting SSL CTX options: 0x42004000 12:14:25 48240 Diffie-Hellman initialized from default with 2048-bit prime 12:14:25 48240 Initialized TLS 12:14:25 48240 185.53.59.181 in tls_verify_hosts? no (option unset) 12:14:25 48240 185.53.59.181 in tls_try_verify_hosts? yes (matched "*") 12:14:25 48240 tls_verify_certificates: system 12:14:25 48240 185.53.59.181 in tls_verify_cert_hostnames? yes (matched "*") 12:14:25 48240 Cert hostname to check: "electron.ecohosting.co.uk" 12:14:25 48240 Calling SSL_connect 12:14:25 48240 SSL_connect: before SSL initialization 12:14:25 48240 SSL_connect: error in SSLv3/TLS write client hello 12:14:25 48240 TLS error '(SSL_connect): error: 00000000:lib(0):func(0):reason(0)' 12:14:25 48240 TLS session fail: (SSL_connect): error: 00000000:lib(0):func(0):reason(0) 12:14:25 48240 SMTP(close)>> 12:14:25 48240 set_process_info: 48240 delivering 1k7GcL-000CY0-IH: just=20 tried electron.ecohosting.co.uk [185.53.59.181]:465 for #REDACTED#@gmail.co= m:=20 result DEFER 12:14:25 48240 added retry item for T:electron.ecohosting.co.uk: 185.53.59.181:465: errno=3D-37 more_errno=3D0,A flags=3D2 It appears that exim is failing to make a TCP Fast Open connection to the=20 remote server. In fact it looks like it doesn't even try. Wireshark shows=20 that it closes the connection immediately after receiving the first respons= e=20 from the remote server. No. Time Source Destination Protocol= =20 Length Info 1 0.000000000 192.168.1.13 185.53.59.181 TCP = =20 78 54794 =E2=86=92 465 [SYN] Seq=3D0 Win=3D65535 Len=3D0 MSS=3D1460 WS= =3D64 SACK_PERM=3D1=20 TSval=3D4153193768 TSecr=3D0 TFO=3DR No. Time Source Destination Protocol= =20 Length Info 2 0.022693018 185.53.59.181 192.168.1.13 TCP = =20 74 465 =E2=86=92 54794 [SYN, ACK] Seq=3D0 Ack=3D1 Win=3D28960 Len=3D0 M= SS=3D1452=20 SACK_PERM=3D1 TSval=3D2019435234 TSecr=3D4153193768 WS=3D128 No. Time Source Destination Protocol= =20 Length Info 3 0.022718023 192.168.1.13 185.53.59.181 TCP = =20 66 54794 =E2=86=92 465 [FIN, ACK] Seq=3D1 Ack=3D1 Win=3D66752 Len=3D0 T= Sval=3D4153193791=20 TSecr=3D2019435234 This problem is not related to a specific remote server, I have tried routi= ng=20 through mail servers run by four different service providers and see exactl= y=20 the same behaviour. But looking at a similar section from debug output for 4.93 it appears that= =20 4.93 does not attempt to use TCP Fast Open even though hosts_try_fastopen i= s=20 set to *. 12:00:36 44920 Connecting to electron.ecohosting.co.uk [185.53.59.181]:465= =20 =2E.. 185.53.59.181 in hosts_try_fastopen? yes (matched "*") 12:00:36 44920 non-TFO mode connection attempt to 185.53.59.181, 0 data 12:00:36 44920 connected 12:00:36 44920 =E2=95=ADconsidering: $primary_hostname 12:00:36 44920 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80expanding: $primary_hostname 12:00:36 44920 =E2=95=B0=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80resul= t: curlew.milibyte.co.uk 12:00:36 44920 185.53.59.181 in hosts_avoid_esmtp? no (option unset) 12:00:36 44920 185.53.59.181 in hosts_require_ocsp? no (option unset) 12:00:36 44920 185.53.59.181 in hosts_request_ocsp? yes (matched "*") 12:00:36 44920 setting SSL CTX options: 0x42004000 12:00:36 44920 Diffie-Hellman initialized from default with 2048-bit prime 12:00:36 44920 Initialized TLS 12:00:36 44920 185.53.59.181 in tls_verify_hosts? no (option unset) 12:00:36 44920 185.53.59.181 in tls_try_verify_hosts? yes (matched "*") 12:00:36 44920 tls_verify_certificates: system 12:00:36 44920 185.53.59.181 in tls_verify_cert_hostnames? yes (matched "*") 12:00:36 44920 Cert hostname to check: "electron.ecohosting.co.uk" 12:00:36 44920 Calling SSL_connect 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: before SSL initialization 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: SSLv3/TLS write client hello 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: SSLv3/TLS write client hello 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: SSLv3/TLS read server hello 12:00:36 44920 SSL verify ok: depth=3D2 SN=3D/O=3DDigital Signature Trust C= o./ CN=3DDST Root CA X3 12:00:36 44920 SSL verify ok: depth=3D1 SN=3D/C=3DUS/O=3DLet's Encrypt/CN= =3DLet's=20 Encrypt Authority X3 12:00:36 44920 SSL authenticated verify ok: depth=3D0 SN=3D/ CN=3Delectron.ecohosting.co.uk 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: SSLv3/TLS read server certificate 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: SSLv3/TLS read server key exchange 12:00:36 44920 Received TLS status callback (OCSP stapling): 12:00:36 44920 null 12:00:36 44920 SSL_connect: SSLv3/TLS read server done So as an experiment I removed the default value of * for hosts_try_fastopen= =20 for 4.94 by reseting it in the transport section of the configuration file = f: remote_auth_smtp:=20 driver =3D smtp=20 protocol =3D smtps=20 hosts_require_auth =3D $host_address=20 hosts_require_tls =3D $host_address=20 hosts_try_fastopen =3D This appears to have 'fixed' the problem with exim 4.94 but leaves various= =20 questions in my mind: 1) exim 4.93 appears to not use TCP Fast Open despite the default value of= =20 hosts_try_fastopen implying that it should use it. Was this a bug or a=20 feature? 2) exim 4.94 attempts to respect the default value of hosts_try_fastopen an= d=20 tries to use TFO but fails. Should it not fall back to not using TFO after = a=20 failure instead of aborting and is this a bug? 3) Is TFO supported by FreeBSD 12? The exim documentation states "On (at=20 least some) current Linux distributions the facility must be enabled in the= =20 kernel by the sysadmin before the support is usable." - https://www.exim.or= g/ exim-html-current/doc/html/spec_html/ch-the_smtp_transport.html . Would this also apply for FreeBSD though I assume it is supported because=20 sysctl shows net.inet.tcp.fastopen.client_enable: 1 3) Is there some error in my configuration which was not sufficient to caus= e=20 a problem with 4.93 but causes problems with 4.94? Since web searches haven= 't=20 produced details of anyone else suffering from this problem then it could b= e=20 quite likely that I've done something wrong. =2D-=20 Mike Clarke