From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 0:11:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A189F37B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5H7Agl61109; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:10:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] > > Not entirely true. Whenever you make a significant change like >this, there is a certain amount of redesign that has to go on. There >is a lot that can be used unchanged, but there are some things that >simply won't work. The Seat Leon and the Skoda Fabia share a lot of >parts in common with the Golf and the platform that underlies them >all, but the base platform only gets you 80% of the way there -- you >end up redesigning that other 20%, and as we all know, that last 20% >can make all the difference. > Actually, the biggest redesign between new models using the same frame is the shell (I called it slapping on new fiberglass but as someone else pointed out most cars have no true frame anymore and are unibody construction) but I wouldn't say that the sheetmetal is 20% of the design - more like 5-10%. As long as the new body has roughly the same drag coefficient, wheelbase and weight as the other bodies and you don't do anything radical (like moving the engine from the front to the back) your fine because you then don't have to change the engine power. What matters is if they change any of the major subsystems like the engine and transmission and dashboard control (except redesign on the dash plastic which always happens), those account for the most design work particularly as the entire thing then has to go back through emissions redesign which can be considerable. That's bad enough but worse is you also have to get all of your subcontractors that build components (like the A/C compressor, alternator, etc.) to redesign their stuff. I read that the auto manufacturers are headed to a 42 volt power system in cars. Frankly I think this is a mistake - they should have made it 48 volts so they could re-use a lot of the Telco electronics which is all 48 volt. That's what you would call a 20% redesign. ;-) > >> If you really want to know if a car is quality, then look at how many >> of them are still on the road 20 years after production. > > Indeed, that is a very good criterion. > It's also a good criterion of how well the manufacturer supports the cars. I've seen that GM is now starting to obsolete parts over 10 years old, and worse not only do they stop manufacturing, but they wipe out the old inventory. Damn bastards! Just try getting some weird emissions hose replacement or other specialty part now. At least the Asian manufacturers will still hold on to parts inventory even 20 year old inventory, although they may stop parts production. >> VW churned >> out millions and millions of the old bugs but you rarely see one around >> today, whereas there's still plenty of old Japanese manufactured cars >> around and about. > > Actually, there are some factories in Mexico that are still >building the original Beetle design! There is no other car design in >the entire history of the business (that I know of) that can make the >same kind of claim. > This is somewhat of a bogus claim because the current "old-bugs" rolling off the line in Mexico have catalytic converters and fuel injection - the engine and everything else has been completely redesigned, as well as the frame so it can pass a modern crash test. This is NOT the original Beetle design. You can buy one of these here http://www.vw-online.co.uk/reilich-corp/ Of course good luck getting replacement parts unless your willing to have them shipped from Mexico. > Show me *ANYTHING* in this modern world where the same basic >design has been built in factories around the world for over sixty >years. Most hand tools even precision ones (Micrometers, etc) have been around this long and those really haven't deviated from their original designs. I can think of some other things too, toasters, vacuum cleaners, incandescent light bulbs, etc. >> Hell I've got a 20 year old 210 with 250,000 >miles on it >> and >> it's still kicking along on the original engine, you could never get >> that kind of mileage out of an old bug engine. > > But what about the design? Could it still be useful sixty years >after it was first put to metal? > No, the 210 design couldn't, at least not in the US, because you have to go multivalve and DOHC to get the high RPM and power output with the low emissions that the American buying public wants. Low-RPM pushrod engines are an anacronism today anyway, although from a maintainence standpoint they are superior to OHC because as long as you keep the oiling in the engine controlled it wears out slower than a faster-turning engine. However, the Datsun/Nissan 510, introduced in 1968, is an entirely different matter. Most of them sold with the L20 engine which was used also in the 240Z and is a favorite of racers, it came stock with wedge combustion chambers, forged crank and connecting rods, superior oiling, and of course the OHC allowed you to tune them to run up to very high RPM. There were quite a lot of 510's running in early 70's stock car races and a whole series of hi-pro parts (ever seen a 4 banger with headers?) for them. The 510 with a hotted-up L20 is still seen in SCCA racing today. The original 70's 510 could definitely have another 30 years of life in it even without a fundamental engine design/ body change. The body has the longer wheelbase that the US buyers like and as far as the engine all you need to do is replace the head with a DOHC head and put electronic fuel injection on it. You wouldn't even need to replace the transmission if you were going to use it in a tuck, and the Nissan/Datsun rear-wheel drive 4-speed transmissions of the 70's and 80's are practically indestructible. (unlike the 5-speed of that period which is paper-mache) I don't know a lot about Nissan-Renault new engines but I suspect that the Nissan DOHC 4 bangers of the 90's are basically built on the L20. I understand that today Renault is trying to push out all of Nissan's engine designs so we will see what happens. > Why don't you find me in forty years and tell me the answer to >that question then. > >> Auto manufacturing literally does need to track every bolt and nut. >> Not that this is that difficult considering how it's so highly >> automated. There's quality reasons of course but the primary one is >> cost - if you are churning out a million cars a year on a line, a >> small mistake is enormously expensive. > > True enough, but how many other factories in the US are allowed >to build domestic and export models of their cars on the same line? >None. > While the European vehicles are of interest in the US, if you want to talk about the US auto market, you have to accept that the real power players are the Big 3 US makers and the Japanese automakers. VW is probably the largest foreign maker here after those. That's why deals like the Renault one happened, it's a way for the European makers to get access into the US market, as their direct sales here have been disappointing. Remember that there's still trade animosity between US and Japanese markets. Many manufacturing sectors in the US have been fighting for years to get product into Japan, and American auto buyers really don't like the idea of purchasing vehicles made overseas. The Japanese build cars in the US because the US buyers want it that way, and it reduces the political pressure on the US Government that the Japanese are taking all the manufacturing jobs away because the jobs lost by sending final manufacturing overseas (like paper, there was a huge political fight because we were shipping raw logs to Japanese saw and paper mills) are offset by new manufacturing jobs created here. Japanese firms also take a big hit here because of the perception that they won't invest in US infrastructure. I've seen this firsthand in the communications field, Japanese firms won't purchase circuits unless it's a matter of life or death. So if they put a plant here to make cars it helps to offset this perception somewhat. I suspect, but don't know, that the big Japanese automakers have a quiet policy of not manufacturing cars here for sale in Japan because of the American buyers not accepting foreign-made cars. They figure what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I also think that as far as the Big 3 making vehicles here then shipping them to Europe, that's a no-go as well because the labor here is way more expensive than it is in Europe. In fact one of the bigger political issues here is the amount of manufacturing that the Big 3 send overseas anyway! I suspect that if the Big 3 had their way, all auto manufacturing in the US would be shut down and moved to Mexico. So, it's not surprising that you don't see anyone else with dual-use plants in the US. >> Of course, though, the big reason they are selling is still >marketing - the >> idea that the country is full of wide-open spaces and you need a big >> car to get around in them - despite the fact that this isn't true >> anymore and few SUV drivers spend more than 2% of the time >driving anywhere >> other than in the city. > > No, the real reason is that these things are taxed and regulated >as trucks, which means that companies like Ford can clear $10,000 >profit on each and every SUV built -- even on their lowest-end >models, and probably something more like $20,000 profit on the >high-end models. > No, that's the reason that the Big 3 _want_ to sell more of them, that's not why the consumers are are buying them. But all this is a moot point now because what is going on now in the US is an economic recession that was triggered last year by the Dot-com implosion. Coupled with this the gas prices jumped tremendously since the beginning of the year, and both of these factors are the two jaws in the vise that's closing on SUV's. To add to the fun, there's now a large scale dumping of the Ford Explorer on the used market both due to bad publicity with the Firestone Tire thing and the rollover problems. So, the SUV owners now are really stuck with white elephants that no one wants. I think that we have seen the peak on that market pass. > If that's not motivation for car companies to put murderous and >intentionally lethal vehicles on the road, then I don't know what is. > :-) Bad vehicle design probably accounts for maybe 5% of all accidents here. The biggest problem we have with vehicle accidents are the drunks, and with traffic congestion that triggers frustration in drivers causing them to do dumb things. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 0:20:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD42437B407 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5H7KMl61119; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:20:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c0f6fd$f8975540$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: David Scheidt [mailto:dscheidt@tumbolia.com] > >I see lots more old VWs around here than I see old japanese cars. At least >an order of magnitude more. > Actually, after thinking about it I realized I was probably being unfair to the old bugs on this issue. I think that the problem is that in the State that I live in, the big thing to do with the old Bugs is to get a hacksaw and cut them up for use as dune buggies. Since kids seem to destroy the things with regularity out on Sand Lake, there's plenty of them out hunting around for new ones to mutilate. That's been going on since I was in school and probably accounts for the rarity of the specie today. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 0:57:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9079137B40C for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5H7oxh59937; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:51:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:50:52 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: David Scheidt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617175048.W26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@tumbolia.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:00:46AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:00:46AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > On 17 Jun 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > :Sue Blake writes: > :> > I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; > :> Interesting point of view. I never cut my hair at all because it saves > :> me time, money, and effort. Nil maintenance. Gravity styles it for free. > : > :I'm not sure my hair's even heard of gravity. If it has, it sure > :isn't letting on. After I got fed up with gel, I kept it about an > > Once your hair is long enough, gravity takes over. There's a really awful > period between short enough not to worry about it and long, though. It makes you wonder why most people try hard to keep their hair within that awkward length range. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 0:57:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734BA37B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5H7lha59918; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:47:44 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:47:42 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617174741.V26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617142834.U26132@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:35:55AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:35:55AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Sue Blake writes: > > > I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; > > Interesting point of view. I never cut my hair at all because it saves > > me time, money, and effort. Nil maintenance. Gravity styles it for free. > > I'm not sure my hair's even heard of gravity. If it has, it sure > isn't letting on. After I got fed up with gel, I kept it about an > inch short for a few years, which kept it under control but had me > running to the barber every month. I ended up cutting it down to 4 mm > (1/6th of an inch), then got a better machine and cut it down to > pretty near nil. I have to cut it about once a week, but at least I > can do it myself, and be done in five minutes. It also saves me from > having to comb or brush it in the morning, or having to spend much > time washing it (not to mention the cost of decent shampoo that > doesn't turn my head into a hive of dandruff). Too bad you never had Aunty Sue's Delicious Shampoo 1 raw egg yolk (half a yolk is enough, but they're hard to find) a blob of sorbolene cream at least half the size of the whole egg 5 drops pure tea tree oil (10 for serious anti-dandruff treatment) at least a couple of teaspoons of water a few drops of angostura bitters, or other options (see below) Mix well with finger (or whip fluffy in blender) and massage plenty of it into wet hair and scalp. Leave it on for 5-15 minutes if you want extra conditioning effect. Rinse off vigorously with warm water (relax, it won't cook on your head!). Repeat. Keep away from hungry people until hair is dry. Avoid becoming wet with strangers. Notes: - You won't get a sudsy lather but it cleans thoroughly just the same. - Leftover shampoo keeps for about a week covered in the fridge, or a day or two at room temperature. Perform the sniff test before reuse. - No, it's not edible. Tea tree oil (an essential ingredient) should not be ingested. It also repels most insects, e.g. mozzies. - If your tea tree oil is the diluted kind, do the necessary arithmetic. - Egg yolk can be omitted, but it deep cleans and adds life to the hair. - Leftover shampoo can also be used as a medicated soap to treat acne or dermatitis. - YMMV Optional extras you can add for variety: a little left over cream or sour cream a dash of rum or lemon or lime or vanilla essence a teaspoon of olive oil to treat very dry hair a dash of lemon juice or vinegar or beer anything that smells good and mixes well -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 3: 7:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D91637B406 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f5H9qu618496; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:52:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nik Clayton To: Sue Blake , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:52:56 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617174741.V26132@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20010617174741.V26132@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01061710525614.01838@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 17 June 2001 8:47 am, Sue Blake wrote: > Aunty Sue's Delicious Shampoo > > 1 raw egg yolk (half a yolk is enough, but they're hard to find) > a blob of sorbolene cream at least half the size of the whole egg > 5 drops pure tea tree oil (10 for serious anti-dandruff treatment) > at least a couple of teaspoons of water > a few drops of angostura bitters, or other options (see below) > > Mix well with finger (or whip fluffy in blender) and massage plenty of > it into wet hair and scalp. Leave it on for 5-15 minutes if you want > extra conditioning effect. Rinse off vigorously with warm water (relax, > it won't cook on your head!). Repeat. Keep away from hungry people > until hair is dry. Avoid becoming wet with strangers. I'm sorely tempted to add this to the new list of freebsd-tips. N - -- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjssffgACgkQk6gHZCw343W5SgCeOIO81YDk9V21c2G8E7dG95IH mIQAn1R/0cH8zvw0fguIsQG/ZuyDsqwH =4+1Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 3:35:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [209.191.58.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8839D37B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA29254 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:35:05 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: > > Why are you assuming that tuning takes a lot of effort? One good > sysop > is all you need. One man-week and then you are done. That's it. > If your IT department isn't up to the task then maybe you should consider firing them. > > -Matt > Matt -- Try and find good Unix folks these days. I'm in Holmdel, New Jersey and even with AT&T and Bell Labs laying off tons of folks Unix trained sysadmins with more than a minimal exposure to Linux or Unix are impossible to find. Let's get real. Universities and Colleges are not training Unix sysadmins. They're not getting trained in tech schools -- which are turning out Cisco and Windows certifications galore. The type of person who mucks with systems for fun is rare and often you just can't find them when you want them. (Want to work here in New Jersey at Ureach... send me resumes) That's why Solaris and SVR4 has gotten easier to tune. AT&T made a decision to have the boot -r reconfigure /dev and do the MAKEDEV automatically. Edit /etc/master and rebuild the kernel. Heck no, run this gui-like tool and we'll rebuild it for you and you can skip all the headaches... we'll even update the boot pointers to the new kernel for you. It's been a long time since I built Xelos on a Concurrent 3230 box... I remember compiling and linking the kernel in a ram disk in order to begin the process of loading the stuff to disk. Most folks forget just how Admin-unfriendly Unix was back in the bad old days. Need a new device driver -- rebuild and relink everything -- no demand loading of drivers. Compare this to proprietary vendor OS's of the time. Easier tuning would not be a bad thing... just it's a shame what passes for Admin and Operations staff these days. Most of these guys couldn't add a user to Solaris without useradd and admintool. Let 'em just try it with vi... and watch the fun. Some don't know the difference between /etc/inetd.conf and /etc/services. --Bill pechter@ureach.com -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 3:55:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CCEE37B401; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 03:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5HAte681089 ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:55:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA61907 ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:56:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:56:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nik Clayton Cc: Sue Blake , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Brad Knowles , Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617125636.B61742@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000a01c0f56b$4f4c9a60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617174741.V26132@welearn.com.au> <01061710525614.01838@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01061710525614.01838@clan.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:52:56AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton said on Jun 17, 2001 at 10:52:56: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Sunday 17 June 2001 8:47 am, Sue Blake wrote: > > Aunty Sue's Delicious Shampoo > > > I'm sorely tempted to add this to the new list of freebsd-tips. Maybe it can go on the mailing lists page: things you can learn by being subscribed to a FreeBSD list. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 5:24:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DE8CF37B418 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 05:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 86138 invoked by uid 100); 17 Jun 2001 12:24:24 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15148.41335.928818.113165@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:24:23 -0500 To: Rik van Riel Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS In-Reply-To: References: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rik van Riel types: > On Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Jonathan Fortin wrote: > > Linux is tuned out of the box, where the others are tuned for > > stability. > Not quite. Linux distributions tend to be extremely > conservative in the IDE options (DMA, interrupt unmasking, > write caching, etc. all disabled) while FreeBSD seems to > have write caching and DMA on by default... This doesn't agree with what was said about IDE write cache in Linux when it was toggled in FBSD. At that point, it was claimed that 1) Linux left the disk write cache in whatever state it found it in, and 2) most drives shipped with write cache enabled, just so they would peform well on benchmarks. In other words - it's generally on by default. On the other hand, all those other options can make a *lot* of difference. I've got some old tests I ran on 3.x wd driver with a brand new disk. Here's what bonnie says for one test with none of the go-fast options on: -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU wd 100 2300 14.2 2285 6.7 1350 6.0 2499 17.7 2729 6.5 123.4 3.2 And here's what it says when you turn on UDMA and all those good things: -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU wd 100 16841 88.5 15186 26.1 16610 38.2 21409 100.0 133543 100.0 3004.7 48.6 http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 6:18:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8827737B406 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B649F66B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:10:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:10:19 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617071019.A20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@tumbolia.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:00:46AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:00:46AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > On 17 Jun 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > :Sue Blake writes: > :> > I cut my hair very short because it saves me time, money and effort; > :> Interesting point of view. I never cut my hair at all because it saves > :> me time, money, and effort. Nil maintenance. Gravity styles it for free. > : > :I'm not sure my hair's even heard of gravity. If it has, it sure > :isn't letting on. After I got fed up with gel, I kept it about an > > Once your hair is long enough, gravity takes over. There's a really awful > period between short enough not to worry about it and long, though. Not here. I have really curly hair and if I let it go long I get a really unmanageable afro type thing going. So now I just cut my hair every two/three months. Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 6:39:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242A137B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HDdA603574 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:39:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:09:21 +0200 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:39 PM -0700 6/16/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > How can you explain something you never knew? You just learn from some > other post about tax write-off and switch into e-bay pricing -> into > 'explanation' of how Universe works. How can I explain the used computer scene for Apple? Oh, I don't know. Maybe by being a MacFanatic since 1984, and owning an ancient Mac SE with dual 800K floppy drives, as well as a PowerMacintosh 7200/90, and having actually paid attention to what these things are worth over the years. > I am talking about a trend in > market share and marketing , you are talking about how good stale > apples are. I know that well enough. I have a few 7200/90 that still > make me money every day. They are excellent at what they are used for. Great! Then you should also know that if you go onto eBay, you will see 7300 through 7600 computers selling for $1000 or more, when less money could buy you a brand-new iMac. Comparable money could buy you a new "iceBook". A logic board upgrade from the 7200 series to the 7300 is available for almost nothing (I've seen them selling on eBay for $10), and with that, and the right MAChCarrier card from XLR8, you could have a Dual G4 MPe PowerMacintosh that runs at 450Mhz today, and with new 7450 chips in the near future, could potentially run at 800Mhz in the future (the older chips allow only a 9x multiple over the bus speed, while the newer chips allow 16x). This new machine could run MacOS X, NetBSD, or whatever you're likely to want. So, why shouldn't it be valuable? Now, it will have a slower bus, and a slower hard drive, but then the machine was introduced back in 1995, and it's amazing that it is useful at all after six years. > Then you start talking about Trinitron, while I am pointing to the > specific quite often poorly calibrated and converged [allegedly]15 inch > tubes iMac are equipped with. All monitors until very recently were sold on a measurement basis that was diagonal and based on the physical measurements of the front glass behind the bezel, and not on the real-world images that could be displayed. That practice has recently changed, although you still see monitors sold with the old numbers and "(XXX viewable)" afterwards. > Those are not all Trinitrons, btw. Every last one I've ever seen is a Trinitron. If you have evidence otherwise, and you can substantiate your claim, I'd love to see it. > And in > pre-press environment i worked we preferred Hitachis with their .22 > raterops amd superscan supreme lines. RasterOps and SuperScan were both well-known names many years ago, but I'm pretty sure they're both based on Trinitron technology. Sony had many licensees of that technology, including companies you've never heard of in the computer or pre-press fields (such as Ikegami), because they were instead the gold-standard reference for broadcast television. Again, if you have supporting evidence that Hitachi used any other technology in these two lines, I'd love to see it. > I > don't view MSFT as my enemy - by resisiting something you support it. > let it fall on its own burdened by its weight and wars on thousand > fronts. This war against MSFT is pathetic, where are you and where is > Gates. If war is not conducted against Gatesware, then how will there *BE* thousands of fronts on which there are wars which will help it collapse under it's own weight?!? This is a complete and utter non-sequitur -- remove A so that B can collapse under the weight of all the other A. Riiiiiiiiiiight. > unless acknowledging > being brainwashed keeps your fatso self-esteem up, since the very > notion of brain is what you need. And not knowing the difference > between chip and chipset fully justifies the longish signature - sure > sign of an inferiority complex fighter. Ad-hominem attacks are the last breathless defense of the clueless and the pointless. Obviously, you are both. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 6:40: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40BB837B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HDdG603683; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:39:16 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:39:08 +0200 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Rahul Siddharthan" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:10 AM -0700 6/17/01, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Actually, the biggest redesign between new models using the same > frame is the shell (I called it slapping on new > fiberglass but as someone else pointed out most cars have no true frame > anymore and are unibody construction) but I wouldn't say that the sheetmetal > is 20% of the design - more like 5-10%. As long as the new body has roughly > the same > drag coefficient, wheelbase and weight as the other bodies and you don't do > anything > radical (like moving the engine from the front to the back) your fine > because you then don't have to change the engine power. I don't recall just how much the "base platform" for the Golf/Leon/A4/Fabia/New Beetle contains and how much has to be redesigned for each model, but I do recall that there were more extensive modifications made for the New Beetle, because the profile in back is almost exactly the same as it is in the front, and this caused more things to be moved around than normal. However, following the 80/20 rule, even if it is only 5-10%, that 5-10% can still be very expensive and time-consuming, and depending on the flexibility of the manufacturing capacity, can be enough to prevent two different models from being built on the same line. > I also think that as far as the Big 3 making vehicles here then shipping > them > to Europe, that's a no-go as well because the labor here is way more > expensive > than it is in Europe. In fact one of the bigger political issues here is > the > amount of manufacturing that the Big 3 send overseas anyway! I suspect that > if > the Big 3 had their way, all auto manufacturing in the US would be shut down > and moved to Mexico. No, actually the labor is much more expensive over here than it is in the US. Labor unions are much, much stronger over here than they are in the US. Indeed, virtually all of France or Germany can be completely and totally shut down if the Farmers decide to park a few tractors at key entry points to the highways and at the borders. Damndest thing is, the police actually friggin' *HELP* them to do it!!! All it takes is a single farmer to say that he wants to strike and park his tractor at the entrance to a highway, the police come along and re-direct all traffic away from that entrance and shift you down one-lane back roads for dozens or hundreds of miles (or make you get completely off the highway and take the back roads), and there's not a bloody thing you can do to make them stop. I guess it's because the police figure that there would be trouble if they didn't redirect traffic, and if there is one guy there could be a hundred, so it's better to go ahead and re-direct traffic now. My wife works for Euroclear, the largest clearing and settlement firm for European stocks and bonds (with over ten trillion dollars of assets under management, and hundreds of billions of dollars of daily turnover). Technically, they are incorporated in Belgium as a bank, so when the members of the Bank Employees Unions strike, that strike includes Euroclear. The police chain up and lock all entrance and exit doors, and people are allowed into and out of the building through a single door that only allows one person through at a time. If there was ever a fire, you'd have hundreds or thousands of people dead, because they'd never be able to remove the chains or the locks fast enough. Now you just try to tell me that Unions have this kind of power in the US. No, salaries are lower over here, but the governments take a larger chunk of the money (I was paying 55% taxes when I was working at Skynet, and if you're paid a large cash bonus, you can lose 75% or more due to taxes), and then the Unions take their chunk. Salaries may be lower, but relatively speaking virtually all salaries are lower, and the costs that employers pay per employee (typically about a factor of three per employee in the US) is also much higher over here, so overall labor costs are actually much, much higher. No, they build cars over here not because of labor costs, but because the additional taxes that would be further levied on them if they were imported from the US would make them even more prohibitively expensive. It's bad enough that they suffer 21% Value-Added Tax (VAT) on top of all duties, and all the other bloody taxes they have (which can easily make things at least 50% more expensive over here than they are in the US), but they'd suffer even worse if they tried to import these from the US. > No, that's the reason that the Big 3 _want_ to sell more of them, that's > not why the consumers are are buying them. But all this is a moot point > now because what is going on now in the US > is an economic recession that was triggered last year by the Dot-com > implosion. Coupled with this the gas prices jumped tremendously since > the beginning of the year, and both of these factors are the two jaws in > the vise that's closing on SUV's. To add to the fun, there's now a large > scale dumping of the Ford Explorer on the used market both due to bad > publicity with the Firestone Tire thing and the rollover problems. So, > the SUV owners now are really stuck with white elephants that no one wants. > I think that we have seen the peak on that market pass. With luck, we'll see SUVs and trucks added to the CAFE calculations, and we'll see CAFE standards increase (for what, the first time in twenty-plus years?), and these things will die a rapid death. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 6:43:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B0937B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 5CB4D66B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:35:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:35:05 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com>; from pechter@shell.monmouth.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:35:05AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:35:05AM -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Try and find good Unix folks these days. > I'm in Holmdel, New Jersey and even with AT&T and Bell Labs > laying off tons of folks Unix trained sysadmins with more than a > minimal exposure to Linux or Unix are impossible to find. > > Let's get real. Universities and Colleges are not training > Unix sysadmins. They're not getting trained in tech schools -- > which are turning out Cisco and Windows certifications galore. > > The type of person who mucks with systems for fun is rare and > often you just can't find them when you want them. (Want to work > here in New Jersey at Ureach... send me resumes) From over here it's I would love to be a unix sysadmin but can't find anyone who does training and someone who's willing to hire. I would apply to you but I don't have the experience. > > That's why Solaris and SVR4 has gotten easier to tune. AT&T > made a decision to have the boot -r reconfigure /dev and do the > MAKEDEV automatically. Edit /etc/master and rebuild the kernel. > Heck no, run this gui-like tool and we'll rebuild it for you and > you can skip all the headaches... we'll even update the boot > pointers to the new kernel for you. > > It's been a long time since I built Xelos on a Concurrent 3230 > box... I remember compiling and linking the kernel in a ram disk > in order to begin the process of loading the stuff to disk. > > Most folks forget just how Admin-unfriendly Unix was back in the > bad old days. Need a new device driver -- rebuild and relink > everything -- no demand loading of drivers. Compare this to > proprietary vendor OS's of the time. > > Easier tuning would not be a bad thing... just it's a shame what > passes for Admin and Operations staff these days. > > Most of these guys couldn't add a user to Solaris without > useradd and admintool. > > Let 'em just try it with vi... and watch the fun. > Some don't know the difference between /etc/inetd.conf and > /etc/services. Making the os easier to use is not a bad thing. I am learning how to code and the interface is one of the things I am trying to improve. I know the diff between inetd.conf and services and I know how to add a user with vi but I don't see how this is any better than using a gui. What's wrong with using an easier to use tool?? If it does everything you need then I say it's good enough. Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 6:48:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F5137B413 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 06:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5HDmF635413 ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:48:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA67889 ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:49:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:49:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617154910.I61742@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:39:08PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 17, 2001 at 15:39:08: > > No, they build cars over here not because of labor costs, but > because the additional taxes that would be further levied on them if > they were imported from the US would make them even more > prohibitively expensive. It's bad enough that they suffer 21% > Value-Added Tax (VAT) on top of all duties, and all the other bloody > taxes they have (which can easily make things at least 50% more > expensive over here than they are in the US), but they'd suffer even > worse if they tried to import these from the US. Is import duty the reason most cars around here seem to be European? I'd estimate 50%-60% of cars on French roads are French (Renault or Peugeot/Citroen), 30%-35% are from other European countries, and just a handful are Japanese or Korean and very few American. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 7:14:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89ED437B40F for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HEEQ617719 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:14:26 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:58:34 +0200 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:09 PM +0200 6/17/01, Brad Knowles wrote: > RasterOps and SuperScan were both well-known names many years ago, > but I'm pretty sure they're both based on Trinitron technology. Sony > had many licensees of that technology, including companies you've > never heard of in the computer or pre-press fields (such as Ikegami), > because they were instead the gold-standard reference for broadcast > television. Sorry, I was thinking of RasterOps and SuperMac monitors, not SuperScan. Still, I believe that Hitachi is a major licensee of Trinitron technology. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 7:14:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A33037B413 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HEER617743 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:14:27 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:06:21 +0200 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:35 AM -0600 6/17/01, Chris Moline wrote: > From over here it's I would love to be a unix sysadmin but can't find anyone > who does training and someone who's willing to hire. I would apply to you but > I don't have the experience. I have the experience, but unfortunately no-one in Belgium seems to be hiring SAGE Level IV Senior System Administrators. The country just isn't advanced enough. I've been looking for four months now, and except for one place in Scotland, every place I've talked to and gotten a positive response has been a consulting business, where they were going to focus on using my talents outside the country, because there simply isn't the work here within the country to support me. I recently interviewed at one of the leading (and fastest rising) companies here in Belgium, and it turned out that I was interviewing directly with the CEO himself, and the company has fifteen total employees. They don't have the work to hire another consultant right now (at least, not one at my level), but they're talking about making me an offer as Business Development Manager, because of all the contacts I can bring. We all have our problems. Some of us have problems attracting talent, some of us are talent that hasn't yet had an opportunity to sufficiently grow, and some of us are experienced talent in the cultural backwater of the world where we don't really have much prospect of finding suitable work (maybe Belgium is the third-world country of Europe?). -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 7:15:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E8637B415 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HEET617760; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:14:29 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617154910.I61742@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617154910.I61742@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:14:22 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:49 PM +0200 6/17/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Is import duty the reason most cars around here seem to be European? > I'd estimate 50%-60% of cars on French roads are French (Renault or > Peugeot/Citroen), 30%-35% are from other European countries, and just > a handful are Japanese or Korean and very few American. In France, import duties are part of the reason. The other part of the reason is that most French people don't want to have anything whatsoever to do with anything that isn't French. They buy virtually no Nokia, Ericsson, or Motorola cellular (GSM) phones, but instead demand Sagem and Alcatel phones. Indeed, until relatively recently, they bought hardly any GSM phones at all, until the fashion industry finally caught on and started pushing them as accessories. And since they're primarily accessories, non-functional fakes are widely distributed. Consequently, they have very low penetration of services such as SMS (Short Message System) and WAP. I'm sure that the same is true for cars, but it's harder to use a non-functional car purely as an accessory. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 7:21: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2552537B406 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5HEL0645862 ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:21:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA68982 ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:21:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:21:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010617162155.L61742@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617154910.I61742@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:14:22PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 17, 2001 at 16:14:22: > At 3:49 PM +0200 6/17/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Is import duty the reason most cars around here seem to be European? > > I'd estimate 50%-60% of cars on French roads are French (Renault or > > Peugeot/Citroen), 30%-35% are from other European countries, and just > > a handful are Japanese or Korean and very few American. > > In France, import duties are part of the reason. The other part > of the reason is that most French people don't want to have anything > whatsoever to do with anything that isn't French. > > They buy virtually no Nokia, Ericsson, or Motorola cellular (GSM) > phones, but instead demand Sagem and Alcatel phones. But they do buy Mercedes... I can't see how any aesthetically minded person can buy the Mercedes A class, but there seems to be a market for it. Oh well, it looks better than the Smart. There are also quite a few BMW, a fair number of Volkswagen, and some Fiat and other European makes too (as I estimated above). Yes, they like French, but as second choice do they prefer European and therefore not buy Japanese or American? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 7:40:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF12337B409 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D4BD61F20; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:39:22 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net>; from ugly-daemon@home.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:35:05 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > Making the os easier to use is not a bad thing. Agreed, but knowing old ways is a "Good Thing(tm)" as you never know when you'll encounter some ancient box sitting in the back of some den, performing old production tasks everyone now takes for granted, because it's been doing it so long. > What's wrong with using an easier to use tool?? If it does everything > you need then I say it's good enough The problem isn't using the new tool, it's only knowing how to use the new tool. What are you going to do if for someone reason X fails to start and you can't get to this super-groovy gui? What happens when if someone deletes the useradd/adduser utilities (It's happened)? I'm all for the snazzy new tools that are coming out. I use metatool under Solaris all the time, simply because typing in all those commands when building a new volume gets really freaking old. I can do it if I must though. Now, if I could just get them to use veritas instead, cause metatool annoys the piss out of me. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 7:56:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34B4437B407 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 04ABE7575; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021591D95; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 07:56:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Chris Moline wrote: :On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:35:05AM -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: :> Most of these guys couldn't add a user to Solaris without :> useradd and admintool. :> Let 'em just try it with vi... and watch the fun. :> Some don't know the difference between /etc/inetd.conf and :> /etc/services. :Making the os easier to use is not a bad thing. I am learning how to code and :the interface is one of the things I am trying to improve. I know the diff :between inetd.conf and services and I know how to add a user with vi but I :don't see how this is any better than using a gui. What's wrong with using an :easier to use tool?? If it does everything you need then I say it's good :enough. You ever try and run Solstice in single user? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 8:47:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B452537B408 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B528966B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:39:05 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:39:05 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:39:22AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:39:22AM -0400, Robert Hough wrote: > On Sun, Jun 17, 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > > > Making the os easier to use is not a bad thing. > > Agreed, but knowing old ways is a "Good Thing(tm)" as you never know > when you'll encounter some ancient box sitting in the back of some den, > performing old production tasks everyone now takes for granted, because > it's been doing it so long. True enough. Still there are so many different machines out there that you can't hope to know how to run them all. > > What's wrong with using an easier to use tool?? If it does everything > > you need then I say it's good enough > > The problem isn't using the new tool, it's only knowing how to use the > new tool. What are you going to do if for someone reason X fails to > start and you can't get to this super-groovy gui? What happens when > if someone deletes the useradd/adduser utilities (It's happened)? > > I'm all for the snazzy new tools that are coming out. I use metatool > under Solaris all the time, simply because typing in all those commands > when building a new volume gets really freaking old. I can do it if I > must though. Now, if I could just get them to use veritas instead, cause > metatool annoys the piss out of me. I agree with you here, sort of. I am not talking about gui tools specifically, jsut easier-to-use ones. I believe that it is entirely possible to create an easier-to-use text-mode interface. Case in point, kernel configuration. Just simply open lint, read through it, and maybe the handbook if it has been awhile, then edit generic, do config/etc and voila you are done. If only everything in bsd could be that simple. Also what happens if someone's wiped out the editors, or /etc?? I fail to see how this is different from X not working. Perhaps it's less likely for vi and /etc to be wrecked in some way than X?? Easier to fix?? Having said that I think you are right, knowing how to run a system is better than kludging with some tool and hoping it'll work. But I still think that a lot of things are harder than they need to be ( ie setting up ppp, sendmail ). Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 8:51:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A340A37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 08:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7181466B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:43:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:43:20 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617094320.B20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:56:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:56:41AM -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: > You ever try and run Solstice in single user? Hmm. Never thought of that. Goes to show how long I've been here :) It would also explain why knowing how to edit inetd.conf with vi is a good thing. But I have a thick head. Perhaps there are ways to make things easier but still be able to run in single user mode. I guess I shall have to run in single user mode more often :) Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 9:22:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B82137B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:22:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 1385 invoked by uid 100); 17 Jun 2001 16:22:31 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15148.55623.109849.700547@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:22:31 -0500 To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Moline types: > On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:39:22AM -0400, Robert Hough wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 17, 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > I'm all for the snazzy new tools that are coming out. I use > > metatool under Solaris all the time, simply because typing in all > > those commands when building a new volume gets really freaking > > old. I can do it if I must though. Now, if I could just get them to > > use veritas instead, cause metatool annoys the piss out of me. > I agree with you here, sort of. I am not talking about gui tools > specifically, jsut easier-to-use ones. I believe that it is entirely > possible to create an easier-to-use text-mode interface. Case in > point, kernel configuration. Just simply open lint, read through it, > and maybe the handbook if it has been awhile, then edit generic, do > config/etc and voila you are done. If only everything in bsd could > be that simple. No, don't edit generic. Edit a copy of generic with your kernel's name on it. That means your changes can be displayed with a simple diff. If you're like me, you check them both into a source code control system as well so you can use that to integrate changes when you update the system, and check it out when you need to rebuild the system. > Also what happens if someone's wiped out the editors, or /etc?? I > fail to see how this is different from X not working. Perhaps it's > less likely for vi and /etc to be wrecked in some way than X?? > Easier to fix?? Two different answers. If /etc is wrecked, then your system didn't go multiuser, and X is going to be unusable. That has to be fixed without X in either way. If vi is wrecked, you use /bin/ed. If that's wrecked, it's easier to fix than X, as all you need is that one file. If you can't get that, you have other options, starting with sed and dd. But to use those tools, you have to know the structure of the file you're going to edit. Which is the real problem with the GUIify the world approach to system administration: the GUI hides the details about what's going on, so if that tool isn't available, the admin has no idea how to go about fixing things with the tools that may be available. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 9:34:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B8E37B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:34:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1032"@[136.142.23.42]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4VGK5IVF0001O8P@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:34:11 EST Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:40:56 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Message-id: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Rik van Riel writes: > > Not quite. Linux distributions tend to be extremely > > conservative in the IDE options (DMA, interrupt unmasking, > > write caching, etc. all disabled) while FreeBSD seems to > > have write caching and DMA on by default... > > Ahem. > > First of all, Linux' file system (ext2fs) is more or less equivalent, > in terms of performance and integrity, to async ffs. This gives Linux > a big performance edge out of the box, and FreeBSD a big reliability > edge - but benchmark authors rarely care about fs integrity, as > shutting off the power during heavy disk I/O isn't generally part of > their benchmark. > This procedure would provide an excellent test of reliability. I think, however, that it's easier to find and maintain an UPS instead of hiring a FreeBSD expert. OK...tunning is not rocket science, but if your want reliable operation you really need an UPS anyways, and FreeBSD admins are not easily found (wrt to lusers and wusers). > Second, we tried turning write caching on ATA drives off by default, > and boy were you (the user community) pissed. Yes, turning wc off > shows you just how crappy those non-tagged-queueing 4000 RPM ATA > drives you picked up at Fry's for some pocket change are. So we > turned it back on. If you're not happy with that, put 'hw.ata.wc="0"' > in your /boot/loader.conf and they'll be off after the next reboot. > Or get real disks. > Whatever the technical merits of turning wc off, I think it was a huge mistake; especially since softupdates were not enabled by default. People who (like me) buy those cheap, low quality, drives, are actually expecting this "crappy" behaviour, but really appreciate having a little more performance. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 9:49:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ADC937B409 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:49:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 089A766B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:41:02 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617104102.A20493@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <15148.55623.109849.700547@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15148.55623.109849.700547@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 11:22:31AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 11:22:31AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Chris Moline types: > No, don't edit generic. Whoops, that's what I meant. > Two different answers. If /etc is wrecked, then your system didn't go > multiuser, and X is going to be unusable. That has to be fixed without > X in either way. If vi is wrecked, you use /bin/ed. If that's wrecked, > it's easier to fix than X, as all you need is that one file. If you > can't get that, you have other options, starting with sed and dd. > But to use those tools, you have to know the structure of the file > you're going to edit. Ah. > Which is the real problem with the GUIify the world approach to system > administration: the GUI hides the details about what's going on, so if > that tool isn't available, the admin has no idea how to go about > fixing things with the tools that may be available. I think this is more a problem with conventional ways of doing gui's than a problem that is inherent in gui's but I see your point. Thanks, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 10:13: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE29937B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f5HHCTa06935; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:12:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200106171712.f5HHCTa06935@earth.backplane.com> To: Bill Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS Tuning References: <200106170947.FAA26679@stage21.ureach.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :Matt -- : :Try and find good Unix folks these days. :I'm in Holmdel, New Jersey and even with AT&T and Bell Labs :laying off tons of folks Unix trained sysadmins with more than a :minimal exposure to Linux or Unix are impossible to find. : :Let's get real. Universities and Colleges are not training :Unix sysadmins. They're not getting trained in tech schools -- :which are turning out Cisco and Windows certifications galore. Huh? Where'd you get this idea? They sure are over here! Just look at the University of California's EECS program. Here: http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/clients.cgi Doesn't look windows centric to me! Looks like a fairly good mix. And all the big servers are UNIX. :The type of person who mucks with systems for fun is rare and :often you just can't find them when you want them. (Want to work :here in New Jersey at Ureach... send me resumes) This is simply not true - you aren't looking in the right places. Look on monster.com and other job search sites and look into university job-fairs. It is hard to find good UNIX C programmers, but it is definitely not difficult to find good UNIX Sysops. They ooze out of the floor boards here in the Bay Area. There are thousands upon thousands of people who can tune a unix box - or can learn how to tune one in fairly short order. It just isn't the problem you seem to believe it is. At BEST we hired two FreeBSD/Linux sysops right out of high school and they knew more on their little fingers then the bozos that did the so-called benchmark. It isn't rocket science - there are fairly concise instructions on how to do things and on the BSD groups we haven't had any serious trouble teaching newbies how to build a FreeBSD kernel, for example. All it takes is a little effort. Very little effort. I can't imagine that it would be all that much more difficult in New Jersey. Anyone who is UI-centric -- even an NT admin who can only do things through the UI and can't get into the guts of the registry - is someone you do not want to hire. :That's why Solaris and SVR4 has gotten easier to tune. AT&T :made a decision to have the boot -r reconfigure /dev and do the :MAKEDEV automatically. Edit /etc/master and rebuild the kernel. :Heck no, run this gui-like tool and we'll rebuild it for you and :you can skip all the headaches... we'll even update the boot :pointers to the new kernel for you. What headaches? Have you ever built a kernel under FreeBSD? Have you ever built the world? It's utterly and completely trivial. Sure, you have to spend a little time learning how to do it, but if the point is to maintain hundreds or thousands of machines and a person isn't willing to spend the week it takes to learn a new system, then again... that isn't a person you want to hire. :Most folks forget just how Admin-unfriendly Unix was back in the :bad old days. Need a new device driver -- rebuild and relink :everything -- no demand loading of drivers. Compare this to :proprietary vendor OS's of the time. And how often did you need to build a new device driver? Not often! While drivers can be demand-loaded today, I personally prefer to link them into the kernel directly to get a little better crash robustness. It takes maybe 2 minutes if you've already built a kernel, maybe 10 minutes if you are doing it for the first time. That is hardly an inconvenience. :Easier tuning would not be a bad thing... just it's a shame what :passes for Admin and Operations staff these days. : :Most of these guys couldn't add a user to Solaris without :useradd and admintool. : :Let 'em just try it with vi... and watch the fun. :Some don't know the difference between /etc/inetd.conf and :/etc/services. : :--Bill Amen. I don't know about you, but you will never see us hiring anyone like that. Sysops are supposed to know what they are about. A glorified power user is not a sysop. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 10:15: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E8D37B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 187AF66B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:07:02 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617110702.A20700@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617124444.A84138@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617124444.A84138@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:44:44PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:44:44PM -0400, Robert Hough wrote: > Lost my editors before (long, stupid story on my part), and it's > something you can deal with. It's a pain in the ass, but is something > that can be done. I had to rebuild my /etc/fstab without my editor once. > Wasn't exactly what I'd call fun. For instance: > > # echo "\ > > /dev/da1s2b none swap sw 0 0 > > /dev/da1s1a / ufs rw,userquota 1 1 > > /dev/da1s4e /usr ufs rw,userquota 2 2 > > /dev/da2s1e /var ufs rw,userquota 2 2" > /etc/fstab > > It's amazing what you can do if a few simple utilities get lost: > > #!/bin/sh > # a bad replacement for ls > for LS in `echo *` > do > if [ -d "$LS" ]; then > echo "$LS/" > else > echo "$LS" > fi > done I begin to see now why you guys don't like gui tools. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 10:32: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E9437B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HHVkb07191; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:31:46 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> References: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:29:31 +0200 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:40 PM -0400 6/17/01, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > This procedure would provide an excellent test of reliability. I > think, however, that it's easier to find and maintain an UPS instead > of hiring a FreeBSD expert. OK...tunning is not rocket science, but if > your want reliable operation you really need an UPS anyways, and > FreeBSD admins are not easily found (wrt to lusers and wusers). A UPS doesn't do you a damn bit of good if the power supply or the fan on the CPU dies. Or if some moron kicks the power cable out. Or if the OS is more unstable because it's not properly configured and the system is being pushed too hard. A more reliable filesystem does actually help in all of these cases, and a more properly tuned system would be more likely to help in all of these cases. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 10:32: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0960A37B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HHVeb07117; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:31:44 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617162155.L61742@lpt.ens.fr> References: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010617154910.I61742@lpt.ens.fr> <20010617162155.L61742@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:24:33 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:21 PM +0200 6/17/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But they do buy Mercedes... I can't see how any aesthetically minded > person can buy the Mercedes A class, but there seems to be a market > for it. Oh well, it looks better than the Smart. What I stated was a rather extreme version of a tendency. Not all French citizens are quite that extreme, but that is the tendency. > There are also quite a few BMW, a fair number of Volkswagen, and some > Fiat and other European makes too (as I estimated above). Yes, they > like French, but as second choice do they prefer European and > therefore not buy Japanese or American? Yup, anything non-European is greatly disdained. They at least have some grudging respect for the Germans. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 10:53: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 364E137B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5CAF31F20; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:51:50 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617135150.A84666@acidpit.org> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617124444.A84138@acidpit.org> <20010617110702.A20700@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617110702.A20700@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net>; from ugly-daemon@home.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 11:07:02 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > It's amazing what you can do if a few simple utilities get lost: > > > > #!/bin/sh > > # a bad replacement for ls > > for LS in `echo *` > > do > > if [ -d "$LS" ]; then > > echo "$LS/" > > else > > echo "$LS" > > fi > > done > > I begin to see now why you guys don't like gui tools. Before anyone says anything, I know the `echo *` is not needed, I added it for clarity. Feel free to rail me on the rest though. :) -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 11: 2:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3C437B416; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:02:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HI1rb09745; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:01:57 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> References: <006701c0f6b9$dd6d89e0$3fac6395@alink> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:01:53 +0200 To: "Jonathan Fortin" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:12 PM -0400 6/16/01, Jonathan Fortin wrote: > As for the benchmark briefly, It's biased because whoever did it knew fuck > nothing about Unix and Linux doesnt need tuning so Linux won period. > Linux is tuned out of the box, where the others are tuned for stability. It gets far, far better than this. I misunderstood some of the details of the article the first time I read it. It turns out that the morons have written an SMTP MTA that keeps all writes in memory and never flushes them to disk. When the ignorance of RFCs and standards is at this intrastellar level, you can forget everything you wanted to talk about with regards to OS tuning. None of that means anything whatsoever, when compared to a program that completely and totally violates the single most fundamental principle of the standards. The programmers may have known something about how an async, poll()-based application can be written, but they very, very clearly knew absolutely nothing whatsoever about writing an SMTP MTA. Go home, the party's over. These guys are so bloody clue-free that it's no longer worth the effort even contemplating the thought of attempting to help them learn how things ought to be done. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 11: 4:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C818D37B409 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HI46b12129; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:04:06 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617135150.A84666@acidpit.org> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617124444.A84138@acidpit.org> <20010617110702.A20700@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617135150.A84666@acidpit.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:04:06 +0200 To: Robert Hough , Chris Moline From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:51 PM -0400 6/17/01, Robert Hough wrote: > Before anyone says anything, I know the `echo *` is not needed, I added > it for clarity. Feel free to rail me on the rest though. :) What about shell command line limitations on length? It seems to me that to be sure you eliminate any possibility of problems there, you need to send output to a temporary file, and walk through it line by line. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 11:26: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633FC37B408 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.96]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GF3000ZF771KV@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4668917E9; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:25:47 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS In-reply-to: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:40:56PM -0400 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010617112547.A90210@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:40:56PM -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > and > FreeBSD admins are not easily found (wrt to lusers and wusers). I don't see too many people hiring FreeBSD admins either. It seems the vast majority want Solaris, HP-UX, Linux or NT admins. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 12: 3: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AFE37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh27.bfm.org [216.127.220.220]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:07:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:01:58 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Identity theft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some damn spammer has just stolen my identity! I have received a bunch of "returns" of undeliverable spam, all having a "From: zen@buddhist.com" field (that is one of my emails). Among other things, the spam says, "Call 800-395-7379 to order by credit card." I called that number to complain, but get an answering machine with a full mailbox. (Feel free to call them and give them a piece of your mind, too--how else are we going to stop this nonsense!) Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 12:14:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC71D37B406 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh27.bfm.org [216.127.220.220]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:19:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010617141440.00e39880@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:14:40 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: OS Tuning In-Reply-To: <200106171712.f5HHCTa06935@earth.backplane.com> References: <200106170947.FAA26679@stage21.ureach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:12 2001-06-17 -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > Huh? Where'd you get this idea? They sure are over here! Just > look at the University of California's EECS program. Here: > > http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/clients.cgi What? No BSD? In Berkeley?! Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 12:30:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0916337B40C for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a161.otenet.gr [212.205.215.161]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5HJUSp01762; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:30:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5HGfrP18701; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:41:53 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:41:53 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617194153.C18502@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com>; from pechter@shell.monmouth.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:35:05AM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:35:05AM -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Some don't know the difference between /etc/inetd.conf and > /etc/services. Ouch. That hurt! -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 12:33:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D6E37B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA46359; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:33:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Jun 2001 21:33:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Sorry, I was thinking of RasterOps and SuperMac monitors, not > SuperScan. Still, I believe that Hitachi is a major licensee of > Trinitron technology. Hitachi make *excellent* non-Trinitron monitors. I'm staring at one right now - a CM751ET, the exact model Sun used to ship (rebranded) with low-end (PCI/IDE based) Ultra workstations. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 12:51:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E5BFC37B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 19172 invoked from network); 17 Jun 2001 19:51:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 17 Jun 2001 19:51:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 24392 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jun 2001 19:51:33 -0000 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: fool From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 17 Jun 2001 15:51:33 -0400 Message-ID: <877kyasx4q.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Academic Rigor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org tea:~/foo$ ls 1 WTF... tea:~/foo$ cat 1 bash: 1: command not found Huh? Not `1', *`cat'*! tea:~/foo$ cat 1 bash: 1: command not found WTF... tea:~/foo$ less 1 [clears screen, displaying "bash: 1: command not found"] Oh, I see. Calling me a fool, eh? -- Arcady Genkin i=1; while 1, hilb(i); i=i+1; end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 13:19:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675E637B407 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HKJd615332; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:19:39 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:12:39 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:33 PM +0200 6/17/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Hitachi make *excellent* non-Trinitron monitors. I'm staring at one > right now - a CM751ET, the exact model Sun used to ship (rebranded) > with low-end (PCI/IDE based) Ultra workstations. Interesting. Do you know what technology that is based on? Invar shadow masks perhaps? How long have they shipped non-Trinitron monitors that are of good quality? I'm seriously interested in the answers to these questions, because the last time I recall hearing anything about Hitachi, I'm pretty sure that they were just another Trinitron-licensee, at least when it came to quality monitors. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 13:20:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CF537B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HKJX615235; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:19:33 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617112547.A90210@zippy.mybox.zip> References: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> <20010617112547.A90210@zippy.mybox.zip> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:10:54 +0200 To: Alex Zepeda , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 AM -0700 6/17/01, Alex Zepeda wrote: > I don't see too many people hiring FreeBSD admins either. It seems the > vast majority want Solaris, HP-UX, Linux or NT admins. I can do Solaris, HP-UX, or FreeBSD. However, they're still not hiring. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 13:27:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED5437B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:27:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.18]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GF3005U1CU4VC@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C5EF018A2; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:27:38 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS In-reply-to: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:10:54PM +0200 To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010617132738.A620@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> <20010617112547.A90210@zippy.mybox.zip> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:10:54PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > I can do Solaris, HP-UX, or FreeBSD. However, they're still not hiring. Well I was referring to the SF Bay Area. The job market here is such that the employers can sit back and wait for those applicants with oodles of experience. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 13:35:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D29737B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:35:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5HKZKb27010; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:35:20 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010617132738.A620@zippy.mybox.zip> References: <3B2CDD98.95548872@pitt.edu> <20010617112547.A90210@zippy.mybox.zip> <20010617132738.A620@zippy.mybox.zip> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:35:20 +0200 To: Alex Zepeda From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Article Network performance by OS Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:27 PM -0700 6/17/01, Alex Zepeda wrote: > Well I was referring to the SF Bay Area. The job market here is such that > the employers can sit back and wait for those applicants with oodles of > experience. Whereas over here in Belgium, if you've got oodles of experience, you will sit idle looking for a job, because no one wants to hire someone that senior. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 15: 3:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F4A37B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id RAA156487305 Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:03:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA37644; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:04:40 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Robert Hough Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617150440.A37567@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:39:22AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Get some SSA 110s, they make good license dongles. [RC] On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:39:22AM -0400, Robert Hough wrote: > On Sun, Jun 17, 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > > > Making the os easier to use is not a bad thing. > > Agreed, but knowing old ways is a "Good Thing(tm)" as you never know > when you'll encounter some ancient box sitting in the back of some den, > performing old production tasks everyone now takes for granted, because > it's been doing it so long. > > > What's wrong with using an easier to use tool?? If it does everything > > you need then I say it's good enough > > The problem isn't using the new tool, it's only knowing how to use the > new tool. What are you going to do if for someone reason X fails to > start and you can't get to this super-groovy gui? What happens when > if someone deletes the useradd/adduser utilities (It's happened)? > > I'm all for the snazzy new tools that are coming out. I use metatool > under Solaris all the time, simply because typing in all those commands > when building a new volume gets really freaking old. I can do it if I > must though. Now, if I could just get them to use veritas instead, cause > metatool annoys the piss out of me. > > -- > Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 15:23:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B3F37B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5HMMgl63139; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:22:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:22:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c0f77c$0694e300$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] >Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 7:14 AM >To: Rahul Siddharthan >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >At 3:49 PM +0200 6/17/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> Is import duty the reason most cars around here seem to be European? >> I'd estimate 50%-60% of cars on French roads are French (Renault or >> Peugeot/Citroen), 30%-35% are from other European countries, and just >> a handful are Japanese or Korean and very few American. > > In France, import duties are part of the reason. The other part >of the reason is that most French people don't want to have anything >whatsoever to do with anything that isn't French. > Heh - yes that extends to French Canada too - apparently it's so bad in that province that there is a law on the books that if you put up a sign written in English, that the French translation has to be written right above it, in letters a minimum of twice as big. This despite that French is not the Canadian national language (another sore spot there) I had forgotten about the European import duties. I suppose that's why the US Government by and large pushed NAFTA through regardless of party lines (and the paid demonstrators that were picketing about it) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 15:42:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D0A37B409 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9EDF01F20; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:41:29 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617184129.B84666@acidpit.org> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617124444.A84138@acidpit.org> <20010617110702.A20700@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617135150.A84666@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:04:06 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > > What about shell command line limitations on length? It seems to > me that to be sure you eliminate any possibility of problems there, > you need to send output to a temporary file, and walk through it line > by line. Made me stop and think about that for a second huh! Actually, I created 60000 files in a directory and tested my little script in it. Worked without a hitch. Now, I can see what you mean though, as some instances would have problems with this -- ls for instance does. [rch@warhammer tmp]$ ls 1* bash: /bin/ls: Argument list too long Using 'echo 1*' didn't give me this problem. Actually, this is how I learned about using echo to show directory listings in the first place. I kept running into that limitation with ls. I don't claim to be a scripting god, but I can usually make something work when I have to. Which was my point to begin with. I'd never attempt to replace 'ls' with my crappy script, but should I ever lose 'ls' I'll have something to fall back on. I actually have a little more feature filled 'showdir.sh' script, but it was a bit too long to post here. Now, if I could just get it to show permissions, and do some color! :) -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 15:50:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C20037B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:50:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5HMoYl63220; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c0f77f$eb28c9c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] > > Now you just try to tell me that Unions have this kind of >power in the US. > Actually they do but they exercise it differently. We don't have fools running out onto the highways because there's way too many rednecks here running around with shotguns. If a Farmer tried blocking a major public highway with a tractor, the good old boys in their '73 mud-covered Chevy truck with a winch as big as an elephant would come down and "explain" it to him, after dragging the tractor off the road. Someone told me about one of these "explanations" during the recent visit by the Dali Lama. It seems that when the Dali was speaking that some jackass in the back in the anti-Lama crowd kept yelling and disrupting the speech - so about 5 minutes into it, 3 guys held up a sheet between the Lama and TV cameras and demonstrator while 4 others pounded on him until he shut up. Pretty funny considering the topic of the speech was non-violence. :-) Instead, the Unions are basically in bed with the corporations, and most of the strike posturing you see on the evening news is fake - it's staged so that the union members all think that their contract votes actually make a difference. Every once in a great, great while you see a real strike, like the Air Traffic Controllers strike that was broken up about 15 years ago, but mostly the strikes you see here are set up. What happens is that the Union goes on strike for 2 months - thus none of the members get paid for that period - and then hammers out a contract with the company for a 5% wage increase over the next 2 years. Of course, the additional money gained by the increase is equally offset by the loss of wages over the previous 2 months, so the union membership ends up getting absolutely nothing more than on the old contract, but they are dumb enough that they actually think they gained something. Meanwhile the company has gained cash to improve their short term cash flow, which if the Union hadn't struck they would have had to furlough all of them for 2 months anyway. The corporations want the unions in because that way they have control over their employees. If there was no union, if a particular employee on a production line got mad he would just stop working which could stuff up the assembly line. With the Union, the shop steward can come over and punch the union member in the nose to get him working again, if necessary. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 16: 5: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F8837B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010617230446.ZDKW15482.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:04:46 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:51:51 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <15148.55623.109849.700547@guru.mired.org> References: <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a fair enough statement, but I'm in agreement with Chris too. If I configured my snazzy UNIX server and it works, what difference does it make how I got it there (text editing or GUI)? I love the stability of UNIX but often find myself in a position of wanting to turn on the XYZ service on a particular system, but not having the time to (nor wanting to) research and find the one little line of some text file in /etc that I need to uncomment to make that happen. I'm no sysadmin, but with a reasonable GUI tool at least I can still get some work done. And there seems to be a sentiment among the Old Guard of UNIX that if you didn't edit it manually with ed or vi, it doesn't really count. That probably only serves to limit the growth of GUI administration tools even more, as those with the skill to create them don't need them or advocate their use. --Chip Morton At 12:22 PM 6/17/2001, you wrote: >Which is the real problem with the GUIify the world approach to system >administration: the GUI hides the details about what's going on, so if >that tool isn't available, the admin has no idea how to go about >fixing things with the tools that may be available. > > -- >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 16: 5: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C573537B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010617230451.ZDLQ15482.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:04:51 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617185747.017a27c0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:04:37 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: OS Tuning In-Reply-To: <200106171712.f5HHCTa06935@earth.backplane.com> References: <200106170947.FAA26679@stage21.ureach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org With all due respect, Matt, I'd think that UC Berkeley would be close to one extreme end of the educational spectrum as far as UNIX education goes. And San Francisco is one of those rare places with so much technical talent that the employers get to watch the pigeons scuffle it out as they toss the bread crumbs out onto the street. To show you what things are like at the other end of the spectrum, the local 18 month college where I work recently decided that rather than try to iron out a few wrinkles in their Linux-based training that they'd just pull the whole thing. I guess those 12 Red Hat installations I did are coming down after this quarter. Maybe they won't notice the FreeBSD system near the wall though. ;-) --Chip Morton At 01:12 PM 6/17/2001, you wrote: >:Matt -- >: >:Try and find good Unix folks these days. >:I'm in Holmdel, New Jersey and even with AT&T and Bell Labs >:laying off tons of folks Unix trained sysadmins with more than a >:minimal exposure to Linux or Unix are impossible to find. >: >:Let's get real. Universities and Colleges are not training >:Unix sysadmins. They're not getting trained in tech schools -- >:which are turning out Cisco and Windows certifications galore. > > Huh? Where'd you get this idea? They sure are over here! Just > look at the University of California's EECS program. Here: > > http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/clients.cgi > > Doesn't look windows centric to me! Looks like a fairly good mix. > And all the big servers are UNIX. > >:The type of person who mucks with systems for fun is rare and >:often you just can't find them when you want them. (Want to work >:here in New Jersey at Ureach... send me resumes) > > This is simply not true - you aren't looking in the right places. > Look on monster.com and other job search sites and look into university > job-fairs. It is hard to find good UNIX C programmers, but it is > definitely not difficult to find good UNIX Sysops. They ooze out of the > floor boards here in the Bay Area. There are thousands upon thousands > of people who can tune a unix box - or can learn how to tune one in > fairly short order. It just isn't the problem you seem to believe it > is. At BEST we hired two FreeBSD/Linux sysops right out of high school > and they knew more on their little fingers then the bozos that did the > so-called benchmark. It isn't rocket science - there are fairly concise > instructions on how to do things and on the BSD groups we haven't had > any serious trouble teaching newbies how to build a FreeBSD kernel, > for example. > > All it takes is a little effort. Very little effort. I can't imagine > that it would be all that much more difficult in New Jersey. Anyone > who is UI-centric -- even an NT admin who can only do things through the > UI and can't get into the guts of the registry - is someone you do not > want to hire. > >:That's why Solaris and SVR4 has gotten easier to tune. AT&T >:made a decision to have the boot -r reconfigure /dev and do the >:MAKEDEV automatically. Edit /etc/master and rebuild the kernel. >:Heck no, run this gui-like tool and we'll rebuild it for you and >:you can skip all the headaches... we'll even update the boot >:pointers to the new kernel for you. > > What headaches? Have you ever built a kernel under FreeBSD? Have > you ever built the world? It's utterly and completely trivial. Sure, > you have to spend a little time learning how to do it, but if the point > is to maintain hundreds or thousands of machines and a person isn't > willing to spend the week it takes to learn a new system, then again... > that isn't a person you want to hire. > >:Most folks forget just how Admin-unfriendly Unix was back in the >:bad old days. Need a new device driver -- rebuild and relink >:everything -- no demand loading of drivers. Compare this to >:proprietary vendor OS's of the time. > > And how often did you need to build a new device driver? Not often! > While drivers can be demand-loaded today, I personally prefer to link > them into the kernel directly to get a little better crash robustness. > It takes maybe 2 minutes if you've already built a kernel, maybe 10 > minutes > if you are doing it for the first time. That is hardly an inconvenience. > >:Easier tuning would not be a bad thing... just it's a shame what >:passes for Admin and Operations staff these days. >: >:Most of these guys couldn't add a user to Solaris without >:useradd and admintool. >: >:Let 'em just try it with vi... and watch the fun. >:Some don't know the difference between /etc/inetd.conf and >:/etc/services. >: >:--Bill > > Amen. I don't know about you, but you will never see us hiring anyone > like that. Sysops are supposed to know what they are about. A glorified > power user is not a sysop. > > -Matt > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 16: 9: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxim.gbch.net (gw.gbch.net [203.24.22.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77AB837B413 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjb@gbch.net) Received: (qmail 89401 invoked by uid 1001); 18 Jun 2001 09:08:44 +1000 Message-ID: X-Posted-By: GJB-Post 2.21 16-Jun-2001 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-Location: Brisbane, Australia; 27.49841S 152.98439E X-URL: http://www.gbch.net/gjb.html X-Image-URL: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/gjb-auug048.gif X-GPG-Fingerprint: EBB2 2A92 A79D 1533 AC00 3C46 5D83 B6FB 4B04 B7D6 X-PGP-Public-Keys: http://www.gbch.net/keys.html Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:08:44 +1000 From: Greg Black To: Sergey Babkin Cc: Brian Wolter , jeroen@unfix.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? References: <3B2D34EA.15DF7160@bellatlantic.net> In-reply-to: <3B2D34EA.15DF7160@bellatlantic.net> of Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:53:30 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sergey Babkin wrote: | Brian Wolter wrote: | > | > > > "microsoft is evil, we can't win it easily so let's bash it to | > | > microsoft /is/ evil. point in fact they're one of the most unethical | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | > capitalist organizations you could find as far as their business | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | | Translation: a socialist/communist organisation. This BS has gone on long enough. It has nothing to do with the hackers list -- take it to chat if you must continue it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 16:25:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A8437B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA47087; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:25:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jun 2001 01:25:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Interesting. Do you know what technology that is based on? > Invar shadow masks perhaps? I can't have the manual right now (it's probably at the bottom of a pile of paper somewhere), but I found some specs on an Italian site: http://www.computershop.pisa.it/art1690.htm It says: Flat-square, Black matrix, Invar shadow mask elliptical aperture electron gun, Anti static AR coating [in italian] Medium-persistence phosphor > How long have they shipped non-Trinitron > monitors that are of good quality? The CM751ET is actually discontinued, and I couldn't find much about it on Hitachi's website, but I think it started shipping in mid-1998. I bought mine from my previous employer when I quit - they bought it in mid-1999 for about $400 or $500 (ex. tax) from a wholesale vendor. I'm very satisfied with it; while you can clearly see that it's not a Trinitron, it's still *sharp*, especially with a Matrox MGA G200 AGP driving it (a good RAMDAC makes a big difference!) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 16:26:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9749C37B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 16:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA47103; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:26:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jun 2001 01:26:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > I can't have the manual right now s/have/find/ DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 17:31:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FE5037B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 12999 invoked by uid 100); 18 Jun 2001 00:31:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15149.19398.975415.242825@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:31:02 -0500 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> References: <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information types: > At 12:22 PM 6/17/2001, you wrote: > >Which is the real problem with the GUIify the world approach to system > >administration: the GUI hides the details about what's going on, so if > >that tool isn't available, the admin has no idea how to go about > >fixing things with the tools that may be available. > > This is a fair enough statement, but I'm in agreement with Chris too. If I > configured my snazzy UNIX server and it works, what difference does it make > how I got it there (text editing or GUI)? I love the stability of UNIX but > often find myself in a position of wanting to turn on the XYZ service on a > particular system, but not having the time to (nor wanting to) research and > find the one little line of some text file in /etc that I need to uncomment > to make that happen. I'm no sysadmin, but with a reasonable GUI tool at > least I can still get some work done. You missed one critical thing about that statement: it's not about tuning things, it's about *fixing* things (first word, last line). Having a GUI to configure and/or tune things means you can do so without knowing anything about the underlying system. This is fine until the system breaks - at which point you're in the position of having to reinstall and reconfigure the thing from scratch. Or wait for someone who knows what they're doing to come fix it for you. Being able to fix things quickly and inexpensively is an important feature for a server - one that you lose more often than you need to unless you know how to use the more primitive tools for doing so. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 18:36:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55C537B407 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010618013606.CBGK15482.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:36:06 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617213259.0178bb88@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:35:54 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <15149.19398.975415.242825@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Agreed. Unfortunately, the best experience with fixing things comes from having a broken system. Unless you have someone more experienced to guide your studies in that area, you're only guessing that what you learn will be valuable for any kind of troubleshooting. --Chip Morton At 08:31 PM 6/17/2001, Mike wrote: >You missed one critical thing about that statement: it's not about >tuning things, it's about *fixing* things (first word, last >line). Having a GUI to configure and/or tune things means you can do >so without knowing anything about the underlying system. This is fine >until the system breaks - at which point you're in the position of >having to reinstall and reconfigure the thing from scratch. Or wait >for someone who knows what they're doing to come fix it for you. >Being able to fix things quickly and inexpensively is an important >feature for a server - one that you lose more often than you need to >unless you know how to use the more primitive tools for doing so. > > -- >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 18:44: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC3037B409 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2DA28BB9; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:43:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:43:52 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617213259.0178bb88@mail.threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Technical Information wrote: :Agreed. Unfortunately, the best experience with fixing things comes from :having a broken system. Unless you have someone more experienced to guide :your studies in that area, you're only guessing that what you learn will be :valuable for any kind of troubleshooting. Well, if you build a machine by hand, you're going to have a much better grasp of how it all fits together. If you just use admintool, sam, smit or whatever, you will have no idea of what it does to do things. When something breaks, if you know what you had to do to get things set up, you've got a better chance of being able to fix it. Trouble shooting is often guess work, but the more you know, the better your guesses will be. David : -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 19:49:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC2937B407 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5I2n9b29300; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:49:10 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:38:47 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:25 AM +0200 6/18/01, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Flat-square, Black matrix, Invar shadow mask Yeah, flat-square with an Invar shadow mask -- that is pretty good. This is a type of monitor that has been relatively recently introduced, and I don't know if they've fully characterized the color shifts as the monitor ages over the years. Do they hold up well for prepress? > I'm very satisfied with it; while you can clearly see that it's not a > Trinitron, it's still *sharp*, especially with a Matrox MGA G200 AGP > driving it (a good RAMDAC makes a big difference!) Cool. I'm glad to know that if/when I buy a new monitor, I may well have a suitable alternative to a Trinitron that is actually completely flat. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 20:24:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A16137B405 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010618032401.BCXY25303.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:24:01 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617230116.0178b970@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:16:57 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617213259.0178bb88@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org With the exception of the lone computer that I have here at home, building a system from the ground up is a luxury that I've never had. In the workplace, I've always had my computer's specifications spelled out for me before I ever got to it, and in some cases I inherited someone else's computer. Fortunately, I'm not a UNIX admin, so my needs are limited to "get the computer to do blah, blah" more than fixing anything. And once I've got it working using a GUI or script or anything else, I moved on to the next "to do" item and never looked back. The UNIX gurus that I've seen on this list and other places are usually people who are paid to set up and fix such systems. (I'm still undecided whether these folks are lucky or not.) Otherwise they're people who seem to just love UNIX. But out there on the fringes are people like me who really don't know the difference between the services and inet.d files, people who just know that UNIX makes the best darn FTP/mail/other server we've ever had. --Chip Morton At 09:43 PM 6/17/2001, David Scheidt wrote: >Well, if you build a machine by hand, you're going to have a much better >grasp of how it all fits together. If you just use admintool, sam, smit or >whatever, you will have no idea of what it does to do things. When >something breaks, if you know what you had to do to get things set up, >you've got a better chance of being able to fix it. Trouble shooting is >often guess work, but the more you know, the better your guesses will be. > >David >: >-- >dscheidt@tumbolia.com >Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 20:25:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB2937B403 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 102BA66B00E; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:17:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:17:22 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Message-ID: <20010617211722.A21674@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617124444.A84138@acidpit.org> <20010617110702.A20700@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617135150.A84666@acidpit.org> <20010617184129.B84666@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010617184129.B84666@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:41:29PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:41:29PM -0400, Robert Hough wrote: > I don't claim to be a scripting god, but I can usually make something > work when I have to. Which was my point to begin with. I'd never attempt > to replace 'ls' with my crappy script, but should I ever lose 'ls' I'll > have something to fall back on. I actually have a little more feature > filled 'showdir.sh' script, but it was a bit too long to post here. Now, > if I could just get it to show permissions, and do some color! :) If your shell cooperates you can use ansi escape sequences. In sh typing esc-[[31m will make the text blue or something like that. I am not sure what the specific color is but that's the idea. The hard part is figuring out how to get an escape in there. I think I used to have a way to show permissions with sh but I can't remember. Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 22:35:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD8537B40E for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BF7775B; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:35:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 00:35:00 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brad Knowles , Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again In-Reply-To: <000301c0f6fc$9d87fb60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: : :This is somewhat of a bogus claim because the current "old-bugs" rolling off :the :line in Mexico have catalytic converters and fuel injection - the engine :and everything else has been completely redesigned, as well as the frame so :it :can pass a modern crash test. This is NOT the original :Beetle design. You can buy one of these here :http://www.vw-online.co.uk/reilich-corp/ : :Of course good luck getting replacement parts unless your willing to have :them :shipped from Mexico. Beetles imported to the US from 75 to 80 had fuel injection and catalytic converters, as did the Vanagon until 85 (when it went water-cooled). The engine in the Mexbug is the same as those, though I think the fuel injection is different (still an off the shelf Bosch, though). Most of the running gear is the same, too, so parts availabilty shouldn't be an issue. Getting one of these cars is, though. Production has either ended, or is scheduled to in the next month or so. : :> Show me *ANYTHING* in this modern world where the same basic :>design has been built in factories around the world for over sixty :>years. : :Most hand tools even precision ones (Micrometers, etc) have been around :this long and those really haven't deviated from their original designs. Lots of hand tools have changed quite a bit over 60 years. They're made of different materials, for one. They're have been other pretty subtle changes, too. Box-end wreches and sockets have changed shape. :I can think of some other things too, toasters, vacuum cleaners, :incandescent :light bulbs, etc. There are things that it doesn't seem worth while to improve upon. (How many designs have safty pins gone through?) -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 17 22:59: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2666337B401 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5I5wLv22392; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:58:21 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B2D986E.C590D002@duth.gr> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:58:06 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Identity theft References: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > Some damn spammer has just stolen my identity! > > I have received a bunch of "returns" of undeliverable spam, all > having a "From: zen@buddhist.com" field (that is one of my emails). > > Among other things, the spam says, "Call 800-395-7379 to order > by credit card." I called that number to complain, but get an > answering machine with a full mailbox. (Feel free to call them > and give them a piece of your mind, too--how else are we going > to stop this nonsense!) > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Adam There is nothing more annoying than a list you participate into getting spammed with a forged email using *your* domain. Very, very nasty, and it happened very recently to me, with one of my private domains :( Anyway, having spam bounce back to you is absolutely evil. In one case that both me and another senior admin were away for several hours, suddenly spam started flooding in and by pure bad lack it was bouncing to a really old DEC 7000 running OSF/1 that was chugging along with some mailing lists among other things. Anyway, it was way to slow compared to the flow of bounces, and didn't last long either. We got to see the most outrageously large queues ever on our MXs. We're talking several orders of magnitude more traffic than we usually do. Solaris simply could not handle it. When I took over it was panicing, and right after booting rapidly reaching loads in excess of 30 and promptly panicing again. We're talking hundreds of thousands of which is really way out of proportion for our site. If that's not a DDoS, I don't know *what* is. The entire known universe, and then some, seemed to bounce spam to us at a ridiculous rate. After fighting with it for a good half hour I gave up - I just went over there and quickly set up a FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE box on a fast intel box to take over as an MX so that mail flow could resume, and then tried to tweak sendmail so that it would slowly process the queue, but to no avail, try as much as I could, the result was either an outrageous long estimated time of getting over with it (in the order of days), or panics. I finally set another FreeBSD box up, transfered the mail queues over and let it process it overnight... Whoever tells me again that spam is harmless, it isn't a big deal to hit "delete" a few times a day or whatnot, will receive a punch in the face. Honestly. Currently my /etc/mail/access is >1000 lines like this: foo@bar.ourdomain \ 550 We didn't sent this and we don't want it either. It grows quite fast too! Wouldn't it be nice if we could just sue the spammers for damages? Heck, it's becoming a full time job nowadays to keep your MXs from wasting resources on stuff like that, and I know of several other incidents where mail access to several domains just went down for hours due to spam activity... That, and the fact that you get loads of abuse reports for spam that you had nothing to do with, and in fact you were more of a victim than anyone else that bothers to complain but can't figure out who is at fault... Sure, they get an auto-reply explaining a few things so that we don't have to respond to each one of them, but still it does damage your reputation as well as placing unnecessary burden on personel, hardware and bandwidth... --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 1:52:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55BB37B403 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 01:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5I8qO607335 ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:52:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA03798 ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:53:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:53:20 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: OS Tuning Message-ID: <20010618105320.A3267@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106170947.FAA26679@stage21.ureach.com> <200106171712.f5HHCTa06935@earth.backplane.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010617185747.017a27c0@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617185747.017a27c0@mail.threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:04:37PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information said on Jun 17, 2001 at 19:04:37: > With all due respect, Matt, I'd think that UC Berkeley would be close to > one extreme end of the educational spectrum as far as UNIX education > goes. And San Francisco is one of those rare places with so much technical > talent that the employers get to watch the pigeons scuffle it out as they > toss the bread crumbs out onto the street. For what it's worth: one place where unix (particularly linux) is very widespread is the physics community, all over the world it seems. And many of them are very good system administrators too, with no formal training. You'd find it hard to hire them, of course; my point is that it's not as hard as it sounds and you don't need a formal unix education for it. From what I know of computer science education in India, while the small "irregular" training shops focus on the latest Windows buzzwords, the regular engineering institutes and universities (with degree programs) are mainly Unix-based. From what I've heard from friends in the west, it's the same in most serious universities there too. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 2:52:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F81837B401 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA49034; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:52:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <20010617033904.39375.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Jun 2001 11:52:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Yeah, flat-square with an Invar shadow mask -- that is pretty > good. This is a type of monitor that has been relatively recently > introduced, and I don't know if they've fully characterized the color > shifts as the monitor ages over the years. Do they hold up well for > prepress? I have no idea, as I'm not involved in any kind of publishing. > Cool. I'm glad to know that if/when I buy a new monitor, I > may well have a suitable alternative to a Trinitron that is actually > completely flat. I didn't say it was completely flat - it's definitely curved both horizontally and vertically. It is however considerably flatter than the fish bowls you get from Goldstar. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 3:24:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bubble.via-net-works.ie (bubble.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476CA37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from campari.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.34.48] helo=cooperationireland.org) by bubble.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #2) id 15BwCQ-0003l7-00; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:24:03 +0000 Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5IANxT53309; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:24:00 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010618112407.0084d800@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:24:07 +0100 To: Technical Information From: Mike Doyle Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> References: <15148.55623.109849.700547@guru.mired.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:51 17/06/01 -0400, Chip Morton wrote: > >And there seems to be a sentiment among the Old Guard of UNIX that if you >didn't edit it manually with ed or vi, it doesn't really count. That >probably only serves to limit the growth of GUI administration tools even >more, as those with the skill to create them don't need them or advocate >their use. The last thing I would consider myself is an "old guard" unix admin, I've only been any sort of admin for about 4 years. However, the ability to log in (via SSH) to a remote server and use vi to change a server's configuration without having to enable a set of web CGI scripts with root access is great. I for one don't 100% trust web-based configuration tools for remote servers. - On the other hand, I don't use "vi" to add users, I use the "pw" command. <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 4:32:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45EF237B403 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 009007565; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8591D96; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 04:32:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: : Yup, anything non-European is greatly disdained. They at least :have some grudging respect for the Germans. They know if they don't they'll be invaded again just to make the point. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 5:20:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C8137B403 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 05:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010618122018.OQWZ15482.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 05:20:18 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010618081248.017c4268@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:20:09 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: System Tuning/Sysadmins In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010618112407.0084d800@199.107.2.1> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010617184404.01776308@mail.threespace.com> <15148.55623.109849.700547@guru.mired.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617063505.A29241@shell.monmouth.com> <20010617073505.B20171@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010617103922.A79022@acidpit.org> <20010617093905.A20349@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well then pull up a chair and sit a spell! All this time me thinking that you were one of those "hardcore" users! :-) (And yes, this is sarcasm. You're talking over my head here. Remember, you're talking to a guy who recently thought to himself, "Oooh, a web-based tool for Samba administration! What will they think of next? Wish I knew how it worked, but here goes anyway...") But I do hear what you're saying. In your line of work, it's not only natural that you'd learn such things, it's essential. And while I envy your ability to be exposed to such technology/equipment, I just know I'd be off in a corner in the fetal position if I had to deal with something serious like that mail bombing story Konstantinos told a few messages ago. :-) --Chip Morton At 06:24 AM 6/18/2001, Mike Doyle wrote: >The last thing I would consider myself is an "old guard" unix admin, I've >only been any sort of admin for about 4 years. However, the ability to log >in (via SSH) to a remote server and use vi to change a server's configuration >without having to enable a set of web CGI scripts with root access is great. >I for one don't 100% trust web-based configuration tools for remote >servers. - On the other hand, I don't use "vi" to add users, I use the "pw" >command. > ><>< ============================================================= ><> >Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org >Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie >Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ >Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 > >********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 8:17:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F19FF37B406 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 31335 invoked by uid 100); 18 Jun 2001 15:17:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15150.7026.513191.947829@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:17:06 -0500 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Identity theft In-Reply-To: <3B2D986E.C590D002@duth.gr> References: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com> <3B2D986E.C590D002@duth.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis types: > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > Some damn spammer has just stolen my identity! > > Wouldn't it be nice if we could just sue the spammers for > damages? You can. See for information on the localhost.com vs. Greentree Mortgage and Bulk Mailers case http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 10:29:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FF937B401 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5IHSbb21008; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:28:38 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:54:01 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Ted Mittelstaedt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:32 AM -0700 6/18/01, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > : Yup, anything non-European is greatly disdained. They at least > :have some grudging respect for the Germans. > > They know if they don't they'll be invaded again just to make the point. With the advent of the EU, that's no longer a problem. They're already going down the path towards becoming a larger "United States of Europe", of which Germany and France will be the two largest and most important members. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 11: 0:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6709037B401 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 33022 invoked from network); 18 Jun 2001 18:00:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 18 Jun 2001 18:00:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 25822 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Jun 2001 18:00:01 -0000 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Identity theft References: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com> <3B2D986E.C590D002@duth.gr> <15150.7026.513191.947829@guru.mired.org> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:00:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <15150.7026.513191.947829@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <87zob5k6se.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Academic Rigor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > You can. See for > information on the localhost.com vs. Greentree Mortgage and Bulk > Mailers case Not a very encouraging result, though... -- Arcady Genkin i=1; while 1, hilb(i); i=i+1; end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 11:58:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.alameda.net (seven.alameda.net [63.86.88.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F73037B406 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@seven.alameda.net) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by seven.alameda.net (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f5IIxOC08329; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:59:24 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Identity theft Message-ID: <20010618115924.H45463@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:01:58PM -0500 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:01:58PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Some damn spammer has just stolen my identity! > > I have received a bunch of "returns" of undeliverable spam, all > having a "From: zen@buddhist.com" field (that is one of my emails). > > Among other things, the spam says, "Call 800-395-7379 to order > by credit card." I called that number to complain, but get an > answering machine with a full mailbox. (Feel free to call them > and give them a piece of your mind, too--how else are we going > to stop this nonsense!) > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Adam I also love when people use one of my email addresses to subscribe to services or download demos where they ask for an email address. > > > --- > http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you > and checks for its existence. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 CCNA, CCNP now, CCIE to be To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 14:19:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from superconductor.rush.net (superconductor.rush.net [208.9.155.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C6937B403 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@superconductor.rush.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by superconductor.rush.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f5ILJ7420049; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:19:06 -0400 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Matt Dillon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) Message-ID: <20010618171906.S1832@superconductor.rush.net> References: <200106181614.f5IGEET14658@earth.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0us In-Reply-To: <200106181614.f5IGEET14658@earth.backplane.com>; from dillon@earth.backplane.com on Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:14:14AM -0700 X-all-your-base: are belong to us. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Matt Dillon [010618 16:49] wrote: > : > :http://public.wsj.com/news/hmc/sb992819157437237260.htm > > Ahhh.... very nice. BSD is more viral then GPL it would seem :-) I was thinking of making my netboot install thingy (http://people.freebsd.org/~alfred/pxe/) into a sort of FreeBSD worm, just an install server that makes more install servers... drop it on some network someplace and sit back and enjoy. :) > It > will be interesting to see if MS now tries to rewrite TCP/IP. I got > dibs on the front row aisle seat! Where's the popcorn? I'm not sure I'd be up for eating after seeing that code. You could sort of imagine something like Microsoft DP/IP, datagram protocol, really UDP because reliable transmission is "hard" and "error prone". :) -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 14:21: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B805337B403 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a060.otenet.gr [212.205.215.60]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5ILKu319745; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:20:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5ILKom04096; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:20:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:20:50 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Ulf Zimmermann Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Identity theft Message-ID: <20010619002049.C3601@hades.hell.gr> References: <3.0.6.32.20010617140158.00e445b0@mail85.pair.com> <20010618115924.H45463@seven.alameda.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010618115924.H45463@seven.alameda.net>; from ulf@Alameda.net on Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:59:24AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:59:24AM -0700, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > I also love when people use one of my email addresses to subscribe > to services or download demos where they ask for an email address. This or a slight variation of it is what made me a stubborn advocate of using Unix as the OS of the workstations at my University (something that did not really happen, but that is another story). The main problem was that with OSes that are not truly `multiuser', the few programs that support the notion of `profiles' are wide open to use (and abuse) by anyone sitting in front of the machine. Having the feature of `profiles' in Outlook or Netscape in Windows machines never stopped anyone from sending mail with their From: set to *my* *profile's* address. When things started to get really wild, I just formatted a couple of machines and installed Linux. Then I could telnet to our Sun machines and read my mail like every descent Unix guy is supposed to do, with elm / pine / mutt / whatever :) After having deleted all the profiles that had _my_ address from all the machines of our computer center (which took, the greatest part of an afternoon), for some strange reason, the spam mail that I receive was drastically reduced! Makes one wonder, doesn't it? -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 18 23:52:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0666C37B401 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5J6pWl67547; Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:51:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brad Knowles" , "Jamie Bowden" Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:51:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c0f88c$463a2720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Knowles [mailto:brad.knowles@skynet.be] > > With the advent of the EU, that's no longer a problem. They're >already going down the path towards becoming a larger "United States >of Europe", of which Germany and France will be the two largest and >most important members. > For your personal safety don't ever say that within 100 miles of any EU country or you will find yourself against the wall and shot at dawn. ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 1: 2:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1119F37B401 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:02:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010619080209.38908.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:02:09 PDT Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 01:02:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: [Apple]RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know how hard it is to find anything on the Net nowadays, so here a link to start with: http://www.hitachi.co.jp/ in case you aren't in the mood for kanji+kana reading today: http://www.hitachidisplays.com/products/index.htm the oldest couple I have is SuperScan Supreme 800U's. Those were purchased in Sep 1995, one 803U - Aug 1996. Mitsus of the time are nearly burnt out, two 51cm Sonys are halfway there; we have them working around the clock here. Some of older RasterOps, just some with the NuBus cards were aperture grilled eons ago which is fine for colour but is unbearable for text in DTP. it's actually Sony who bought technology from Hitachi for their Vega line. --- Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > Interesting. Do you know what technology that is based on? > > Invar shadow masks perhaps? > > I can't have the manual right now (it's probably at the bottom of a > pile of paper somewhere), but I found some specs on an Italian site: > > http://www.computershop.pisa.it/art1690.htm > > It says: > > Flat-square, Black matrix, Invar shadow mask > elliptical aperture electron gun, Anti static AR coating > [in italian] Medium-persistence phosphor > > > How long have they shipped > non-Trinitron > > monitors that are of good quality? > > The CM751ET is actually discontinued, and I couldn't find much about > it on Hitachi's website, but I think it started shipping in mid-1998. > I bought mine from my previous employer when I quit - they bought it > in mid-1999 for about $400 or $500 (ex. tax) from a wholesale vendor. > I'm very satisfied with it; while you can clearly see that it's not a > Trinitron, it's still *sharp*, especially with a Matrox MGA G200 AGP > driving it (a good RAMDAC makes a big difference!) > > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 12:46:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B421B37B403 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:46:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010619194652.SWGC25303.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:46:52 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81> X-Sender: tech@216.117.185.81 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:43:47 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: spam filters (not FreeBSD specific) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This question isn't really FreeBSD specific, but we're just chattin' here so I guess anything goes... Does anybody have any good filtering rules for blocking spam? In particular, I'm looking for a solution that can be implemented with simple string matching (no name lookups, no regular expressions) on a very simple mail client. If there is a list of rules that anyone has or could point me to, I'd be very appreciative. Thanks in advance, Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 15: 7:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2320E37B406 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5JM6kY05613; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:06:49 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000901c0f88c$463a2720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <000901c0f88c$463a2720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 23:37:23 +0200 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Jamie Bowden" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Cc: "Rahul Siddharthan" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:51 PM -0700 6/18/01, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > For your personal safety don't ever say that within 100 > miles of any EU country or you will find yourself against the wall and > shot at dawn. ;-) Don't worry, I'm well aware of their views on this subject. Sorry, I forgot to include the requisite smiley with that joke. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 16:40:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7FF37B403 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 2792"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4YO12TEOO002LFL@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:40:13 EST Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:49:35 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Slashdot's secret Story Generator To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B2FE50F.DB983146@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is cool, it even reproduces teh typos! http://bbspot.com/toys/slashtitle/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 16:54:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E691137B406 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5F6C76ACC0; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:24:33 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:24:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Adam Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Message-ID: <20010620092433.F60710@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200106192117.f5JLHsS11182@supernova.dimensional.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106192117.f5JLHsS11182@supernova.dimensional.com>; from element@Dim.com on Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 03:14:17PM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat] On Tuesday, 19 June 2001 at 15:14:17 -0700, Adam wrote: > unattributed wrote: >> BSDI or CSRG did the contract work, according to my sources; >> so you might want to ask Kirk or Mike Karels, since you are >> more connected to them than we are (e.g. same building, etc.). >> >> My sources are a former BSDI employee from way back (lawsuit >> days and before), and another person. >> >> The FTP utility contains the copyright string (run "strings" >> on it). Several other standard tools have similar copyright >> strings in them. > > An article over on www.Kuro5hin.org by a someone who claims > to be a former MS employee describes the stack used in NT back > in the early 90's as code which was liscensed from a company > called 'Spider'. This must be Spider in Edinburgh, Scotland. > In the comp.unix.admin archives I found a post which references > Spider QNIX as a *nix variant The Spider I'm thinking of had nothing to do with QNIX. They made custom communications software. At Tandem we used their X.25 stack. I didn't know that they also did TCP/IP stuff, but it's plausible. > so I'm pretty sure this is who the article is referencing. Anyway > this code in turn was pulled from BSD back in the day... It's ambiguous at best. > "...Along with Spider's stack came versions of various > TCP/IP-related utility programs, It's possible to read into this that their stack was primarily non-TCP/IP, which would fit. > such as ftp, rcp and rsh. Those were ported from BSD sockets to > winsock (not a huge change) and bundled with NT." > > I don't know how much faith you can put in it, but its an > interesting read. I found the following snippet to be quite > curious... > > "And implying that the TCP/IP stack uses BSD code is also > false. As I said above there may be small vestiges of it > in there, although I doubt it. There's little to go on here one way or the other. > Anyway the FreeBSD programmers who reported all this to the Wall > Street Journal can't see the NT TCP/IP source either, so they can't > have been referring to that." This sounds like a content-free statement. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 20:14:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D27B37B406 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:14:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 4078166B00E; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:06:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 21:06:43 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) Message-ID: <20010619210643.A30614@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <01061920032100.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619184212P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <01061922233101.00956@alpha1.moonbase> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01061922233101.00956@alpha1.moonbase>; from jmr71769@earthlink.net on Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:23:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:23:31PM -0400, Jeffrey M. Reed wrote: > i just can't stand the fact that while 2K is decent, 'Me' is a > piece of crap I thought 2k was windows me To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 22:23:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4BC737B407 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r27.bfm.org [216.127.220.123]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:27:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010620002300.00953c40@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:23:00 -0500 To: "Jeremiah Johnson" , From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) In-Reply-To: References: <01061920032100.00956@alpha1.moonbase> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:03 2001-06-20 +1000, Jeremiah Johnson wrote: >That's the BSD license for ya. > >There needs to be a license that says something to the effect of "Anyone >can use/buy/sell/modify/distribute this software with or without source >code except Microsoft." Heh, I went through a period of time (about a decade ago), when I licenced my software exactly that way. Though I also excluded IBM. Cheers, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 19 22:25:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CC0637B401 for ; Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:25:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@hotpost.dk) Received: (qmail 25548 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jun 2001 05:25:23 -0000 From: "Morten Liebach" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:25:23 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) Message-ID: <20010620072523.B3709@hotpost.dk> References: <01061920032100.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619184212P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <01061922233101.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619210643.A30614@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010619210643.A30614@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net>; from ugly-daemon@home.com on Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 09:06:43PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19, Jun, 2001 at 09:06:43PM -0600, Chris Moline wrote: > On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:23:31PM -0400, Jeffrey M. Reed wrote: > > i just can't stand the fact that while 2K is decent, 'Me' is a > > piece of crap > I thought 2k was windows me Your ignorance is touching and envy-able (is that a word?) ;-) HAND Morten -- "There are trivial truths and there are great Truths. The opposite of a trival truth is obviously false. The opposite of a great Truth is also true." -- Neils Bohr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 0:32:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1247337B403 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA58623; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:32:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: "Jeremiah Johnson" , Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) References: <01061920032100.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <3.0.6.32.20010620002300.00953c40@mail85.pair.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Jun 2001 09:32:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010620002300.00953c40@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > At 10:03 2001-06-20 +1000, Jeremiah Johnson wrote: > > There needs to be a license that says something to the effect of "Anyone > > can use/buy/sell/modify/distribute this software with or without source > > code except Microsoft." > Heh, I went through a period of time (about a decade ago), when I > licenced my software exactly that way. Though I also excluded IBM. As tempting as it may be, it's illegal... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 0:33:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AAD37B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA58620; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:32:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Morten Liebach" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) References: <01061920032100.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619184212P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <01061922233101.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619210643.A30614@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010620072523.B3709@hotpost.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Jun 2001 09:32:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010620072523.B3709@hotpost.dk> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Morten Liebach" writes: > Your ignorance is touching and envy-able (is that a word?) ;-) Yes, and it's spelled "enviable". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 1:18:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phaidor.thuvia.org (thuvia.demon.co.uk [193.237.34.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36C637B406; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 01:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk) Received: from dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (dotar-sojat.thuvia.org [10.0.0.4]) by phaidor.thuvia.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5K8IaS17629; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:18:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f5K8IUj38322; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:18:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:18:30 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Valentine Message-Id: <200106200818.f5K8IUj38322@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org> In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Jun 20, 12:04am X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: grog@freebsd.org (Greg Lehey), Adam Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > An article over on www.Kuro5hin.org by a someone who claims > > to be a former MS employee describes the stack used in NT back > > in the early 90's as code which was liscensed from a company > > called 'Spider'. > > This must be Spider in Edinburgh, Scotland. Indeed. > The Spider I'm thinking of had nothing to do with QNIX. They made > custom communications software. At Tandem we used their X.25 stack. > I didn't know that they also did TCP/IP stuff, but it's plausible. Splutter. You must have had the same sales wally who failed to specify that Microsoft's royalty buyout apply only to the NT platform! Oh yes, Tandem. Weren't they only Spider customer who didn't seem to be able to print their own copies of our documentation, losing our guys a good bit of cupboard space for stock?! (Apologies if I mixed up customers here.) > > "...Along with Spider's stack came versions of various > > TCP/IP-related utility programs, > > It's possible to read into this that their stack was primarily > non-TCP/IP, which would fit. No it was TCP/IP alright; they bought SpiderTCP and SpiderSTREAMS (a highly portable STREAMS implementation which lets Spider's stacks run in pretty much any environment). Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." Mark Valentine uses "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* and endorses FreeBSD -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 5: 8:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70AB37B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7730575BD; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A9B1D9C; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 05:08:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Chris Moline Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) In-Reply-To: <20010619210643.A30614@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Chris Moline wrote: :On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:23:31PM -0400, Jeffrey M. Reed wrote: :> i just can't stand the fact that while 2K is decent, 'Me' is a :> piece of crap :I thought 2k was windows me No. Windows 2000 is the renamed NT 5.0; Windows ME is the current (and final?) release of the Windows 9x line. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 6: 8:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFD737B403 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 06:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15Chiq-0006Qr-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:08:40 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5KD8df98644 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:08:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:08:39 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: re: spam filters Message-ID: <20010620140838.A98591@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi chip, i am in the process of checking out the junkfilter port. Like yourself, i am looking for some simple recipies, nothing fancy. Jonathon -- "It is through will alone I set my mind in motion...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 7:12:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA69937B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15CiiI-0000lB-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:12:10 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5KECAg99848 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:12:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:12:10 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: interesting licensing quote Message-ID: <20010620151210.A99772@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found this on a forum about the WSJ article: This article should make both the knee-jerk MS-bashers and the knee-jerk MS-defenders stop and think for a moment. As the author explained very convincingly, Microsoft has used open source BSD code quite selfishly, for its own ends, but has done so quite legally. There isn't anything apparently illegal about what Microsoft has done with the BSD code, but it is perhaps hypocritical, considering their recent open-source bashing. This article made me think about my own opinions of the BSD and GPL licenses. I think I tend to come across as a bit of a GPL zealot, but I can see how in some cases, BSD is a better choice. If the BSD sockets code had been under the GPL, Microsoft wouldn't have used it, and likely as not they would have developed a completely incompatible TCP/IP programming interface. As it is, sockets have become something of a standard, and Unix and Windows programmers can understand and modify each other's TCP/IP code without too much trouble. So in this case, the BSD code has won a victory for interoperability. Jonathon -- "It is through will alone I set my mind in motion...." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 7:18:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A65637B403 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA31954; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:18:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma031940; Wed, 20 Jun 01 10:18:22 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:16:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Subject: Re: Identity theft In-Reply-To: <3B2D986E.C590D002@duth.gr> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, I've been having my personal address forged into the From, Reply-To, and envelope receipt fields of pieces of spam since mid-march now. At first, I got back about 150 or so bounces but then they subsided and even the ones that I did get were filtered out by my anti-spam filters. Unfortunately, I then ran into some other problems. If you have ever had the displeasure of using hotmail or AOL, these services have the ability to block based on the sender, which is, IMHO, completely useless. I have a number of friends whom I e-mail on hotmail and AOL on a fairly regular basis and started to discover I was being blocked :( A couple of days ago, I finally bit the bullet and deprecated my personal e-mail address, which is only going to be used on mailing lists and web pages from now on. Needless to say, I'm PRETTY DAMN TORKED! Just a couple of other things: pobox.com, an e-mail forwarding service, has been great throughout this whole ordeal. I told them that my address was being forged and they made a note of it. They also have some anti-spam filters which most likely kept the bulk of the bounces off my e-mail box. I also use Catherine Hampton's SpamBouncer (http://www.spambouncer.org) to help filter anything that makes it through pobox.com. It's a procmail-based system that blocked most of the bounces I received. Good luck dealing with the identity theft. It's a royal pain. Cheers! On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > Some damn spammer has just stolen my identity! > > > There is nothing more annoying than a list you participate into > getting spammed with a forged email using *your* domain. Very, > very nasty, and it happened very recently to me, with one of > my private domains :( > > Anyway, having spam bounce back to you is absolutely evil. - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE7MLBatZTBgtmnGNERAix4AKDRB14gV+YVqua+K/tHxn71/s30vwCgo7Mg s/+rQHlLHGB+gxhpaHT8Ws0= =oSuz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 8:43:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCC037B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b069.otenet.gr [195.167.121.197]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5KFhBS22991; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:43:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5KFhAV06995; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:43:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:43:10 +0300 (EEST) From: Giorgos Keramidas X-X-Sender: To: Morten Liebach Cc: Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) In-Reply-To: <20010620072523.B3709@hotpost.dk> Message-ID: <20010620184238.B6969-100000@hades.hell.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Morten Liebach wrote: > On 19, Jun, 2001 at 09:06:43PM -0600, Chris Moline wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:23:31PM -0400, Jeffrey M. Reed wrote: > > > i just can't stand the fact that while 2K is decent, 'Me' is a > > > piece of crap > > I thought 2k was windows me > > Your ignorance is touching and envy-able (is that a word?) ;-) Yes, though slightly different. It is 'enviable' that you're looking for. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 8:45:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C49037B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: from ae05143.powerup.com.au (HELO warhawk) (203.147.164.143) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jun 2001 15:45:21 -0000 X-Apparently-From: From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Subject: RE: interesting licensing quote Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:49:26 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20010620151210.A99772@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If that's the case, then where do MS's 'weaknesses in the TCP/IP stack' originate from? I'm confused now... If they actually put in BSD code, wouldn't it be more stable/secure? They can't really take good code, and stuff it it that badly can they? (then again...*g*). -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of j mckitrick Sent: Thursday, 21 June 2001 12:12 AM To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: interesting licensing quote I found this on a forum about the WSJ article: This article should make both the knee-jerk MS-bashers and the knee-jerk MS-defenders stop and think for a moment. As the author explained very convincingly, Microsoft has used open source BSD code quite selfishly, for its own ends, but has done so quite legally. There isn't anything apparently illegal about what Microsoft has done with the BSD code, but it is perhaps hypocritical, considering their recent open-source bashing. This article made me think about my own opinions of the BSD and GPL licenses. I think I tend to come across as a bit of a GPL zealot, but I can see how in some cases, BSD is a better choice. If the BSD sockets code had been under the GPL, Microsoft wouldn't have used it, and likely as not they would have developed a completely incompatible TCP/IP programming interface. As it is, sockets have become something of a standard, and Unix and Windows programmers can understand and modify each other's TCP/IP code without too much trouble. So in this case, the BSD code has won a victory for interoperability. Jonathon -- "It is through will alone I set my mind in motion...." _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 9:12:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 78CEF37B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@hotpost.dk) Received: (qmail 27835 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Jun 2001 16:12:17 -0000 From: "Morten Liebach" Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:12:17 +0200 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft Using Free Software (or something to that effect) Message-ID: <20010620181217.A18407@hotpost.dk> References: <01061920032100.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619184212P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <01061922233101.00956@alpha1.moonbase> <20010619210643.A30614@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010620072523.B3709@hotpost.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 09:32:18AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20, Jun, 2001 at 09:32:18AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Morten Liebach" writes: > > Your ignorance is touching and envy-able (is that a word?) ;-) > > Yes, and it's spelled "enviable". Thanks. :-) And aspell didn't even catch it, because of the '-', so I thought I was right, but felt I was wrong ... HAND Morten -- "There are trivial truths and there are great Truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is obviously false. The opposite of a great Truth is also true." -- Neils Bohr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 9:29: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8E537B409 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:28:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1106"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K4ZN8Q3W44001RT5@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:28:56 EST Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:38:25 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft UsingFree Software (or something to that effect) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B30D181.EB0DC016@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh, For me the final release in the windows 9x line is Windows 98 Second Edition. MS made some obscure agreement with Intel or whomever so that Windows ME won't install on computers with less than 150 MHz. Which is better Windows 98SE or Windows NT 4.0?? I got them for free due to that agreement between the University and Microsoft. They also give away Windows 2000; ugh...so many software that does the same thing. Pedro. ps. is it normal that my FreeBSD 4.3 CDs still haven't arrived? Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > :On Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 10:23:31PM -0400, Jeffrey M. Reed wrote: > :> i just can't stand the fact that while 2K is decent, 'Me' is a > :> piece of crap > :I thought 2k was windows me > > No. Windows 2000 is the renamed NT 5.0; Windows ME is the current (and > final?) release of the Windows 9x line. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 10: 2:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E4737B407 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29878; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:02:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620105255.05427dc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:02:33 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Mercury News forum slanted toward GPL Cc: david@usermode.org, tchrist@chthon.perl.com, jpaczkowski@knightridder.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The San Jose Mercury News has just announced a "Roundtable" in which "experts" on open source software and a representative or two of Microsoft will debate licensing issues. It's described at http://www.siliconvalley.com/roundtable/ Note that no one from the open source world who is CRITICAL of the GPL is there; the panel consists mostly of GPL advocates and then one Microsoft exec and one fellow whose philosophy can best be described as "corporate pseudo-Libertarian." The BSD license and the BSD philosophy have been denied a voice. Those who believe that the GPL is not a good license for freely redistributable and/or peer-reviewed software -- e.g. Tom Christiansen and David Johnson -- are not represented. Perhaps if folks here comment via the link at the bottom of the page, the BSD philosophy of maximum freedom -- without poison pills or restrictions motivated by spite -- could be represented. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 10:58:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6114837B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9A5257577; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979B91D96; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone see todays Wall Street Journal article: Microsoft UsingFree Software (or something to that effect) In-Reply-To: <3B30D181.EB0DC016@pitt.edu> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: :Heh, : :For me the final release in the windows 9x line is Windows 98 Second :Edition. MS made some obscure agreement with Intel or whomever so that :Windows ME won't install on computers with less than 150 MHz. It's a silly, but not unreasonable, requirement. The market they're aiming for tends to have new or recent hardware. There's no technical reason I can think of for it, other than raw performance. Win2k does the same thing, although it's minimum requirement is a Ppro 180 (maybe a 166, I'd have to check) and 64MB RAM. :Which is better Windows 98SE or Windows NT 4.0?? I got them for free :due to that agreement between the University and Microsoft. They also :give away Windows 2000; ugh...so many software that does the same :thing. If the university is giving away Win2k, it's the best of Win98's hardware support with NTs improved (relative to 9x) security and stability. It runs all my Direct3D games with no problems, which NT 4.0 wouldn't do. :ps. is it normal that my FreeBSD 4.3 CDs still haven't arrived? Haven't a clue, I'm just an end user. I burned my own though. That Jordan makes the disc 1 ISOs available is really cool. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 12:32:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF9C37B403 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15CniX-0005yn-00; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:32:45 -0700 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: public domain vs. copyright, license, disclaimer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am interested in hearing opinions, ideas and references on why using a BSD-type license is better (or not better) than simply releasing code as "public domain". Any real-life examples on why one is better than the other? Only things I can think of are: The author being punished due to some problems (but I don't think disclaimers really hold any legal value). Any known examples? Uncopyrighted code being later copyrighted by someone else. Any known examples? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 12:35:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8254137B406 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01600; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:34:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620133149.04876ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:34:16 -0600 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: interesting licensing quote (GPL) In-Reply-To: <20010620151210.A99772@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:12 AM 6/20/2001, j mckitrick wrote: > This article made me think about my own opinions of the BSD and GPL >licenses. I think I tend to come across as a bit of a GPL zealot, but I >can see how in some cases, BSD is a better choice. If the BSD sockets code >had been under the GPL, Microsoft wouldn't have used it, and likely as not they >would have developed a completely incompatible TCP/IP programming interface. >As it is, sockets have become something of a standard, and Unix and Windows >programmers can understand and modify each other's TCP/IP code >without too much trouble. So in this case, the BSD code has won a victory >for interoperability. And for standardization. The GPL discourages standardization by driving a wedge between commercial developers and developers of GPLed software. They must work from different code bases. And since even EXAMINING the GPLed code could make a commercial developer subject to accusation that he's created a derivative work, analyzing the two to see WHY they're not compatible is not feasible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 12:40:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAE137B406 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA61001; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:40:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: public domain vs. copyright, license, disclaimer References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Jun 2001 21:40:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > I am interested in hearing opinions, ideas and references on why using a > BSD-type license is better (or not better) than simply releasing code as > "public domain". In the US - at least in some states - you may be liable for damages unless you explicitly disclaim any and all responsibility for the consequences of using your software. The disclaimer (the stuff in capital letters in the license) protects you against that. The rest of the license basically says that anyone can do whatever they want with the code, as long as they don't lie about who did it (i.e. they can't say they wrote it themselves, and they can't use your name to advertise for derivated software). In other words, the license is there to protect you more than anything else, and it probably wouldn't be wise to use a shorter license without consulting an attorney first. Disclaimer: IANAL; consider this hearsay. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 13:15: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c007.snv.cp.net (c007-h011.c007.snv.cp.net [209.228.33.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E37D37B403 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sobolak@telocity.com) Received: (cpmta 7750 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2001 13:02:04 -0700 Received: from dsl-64-130-72-57.telocity.com (HELO ELVIS.swh.SynergyBiz.com) (64.130.72.57) by smtp.telocity.com (209.228.33.217) with SMTP; 20 Jun 2001 13:02:04 -0700 X-Sent: 20 Jun 2001 20:02:04 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:01:57 -0700 From: Brian Sobolak X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Telocity X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <11224273904.20010620130157@telocity.com> To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: public domain vs. copyright, license, disclaimer In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Jeremy, Wednesday, June 20, 2001, 12:32:45 PM, you wrote: JCR> I am interested in hearing opinions, ideas and references on why using a JCR> BSD-type license is better (or not better) than simply releasing code as JCR> "public domain". You can read Brian Behlendorf's thought on the matter in _Open Sources_, which you can find here: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/brian.html His essay doesn't include a discussion of public domain, just a brief mention of why they chose a BSD-type license for Apache. I seem to recall someone else talking about public domain code in that book, but I don't remember who. Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 20:33:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inbound0.mv.meer.net (inbound0.mv.meer.net [209.157.152.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28EF37B407 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@usermode.org) Received: from meer.meer.net (mail.meer.net [209.157.152.14]) by inbound0.mv.meer.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5L3XqU78978; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nomad.home ([207.20.243.8]) by meer.meer.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/meer) with SMTP id UAA552310; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: David Johnson Organization: Usermode To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mercury News forum slanted toward GPL Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:33:50 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620105255.05427dc0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620105255.05427dc0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01062020335002.00320@nomad.home> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday 20 June 2001 10:02 am, Brett Glass wrote: > The San Jose Mercury News has just announced a "Roundtable" in which > "experts" on open source software and a representative or two of > Microsoft will debate licensing issues. It's described at > > http://www.siliconvalley.com/roundtable/ I see from the current list that we have an unusual mix of panelists. Since you are now added to the list, there is a representative of the "fanatical" wing of BSD included (no offense intended). I would also like to see the "moderate" wing represented. One suggestion is Brian Behlendorf. He is not a member of the BSD community per-se, but he is a core member of Apache which uses a BSD-like license, and a member of the Open Source Initiative. Apache is the most successful Open Source project to date, and it ain't under the GPL. -- David Johnson ___________________ http://www.usermode.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 20 22:56:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555BD37B401 for ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:56:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1076"@[136.142.22.44]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K50FFJKEJA002N52@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:56:12 EST Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:58:01 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Re: Mercury News forum slanted toward GPL To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Brett Glass Message-id: <3B31B719.D085C967@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010620105255.05427dc0@localhost> <01062020335002.00320@nomad.home> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I honestly don't see the benefit of the discussion. Microsoft will not release it's code under the GPL, Linux will not be relicensed. Furthermore.the people discussing things are not core developers, and except for Stallman, have little or no influence on relicensing anything. IMHO the amount of dust that will be raised will not achieve anything against or in favor of the BSDs. Want to make it interesting? Invite Theo :). Pedro. David Johnson wrote: > On Wednesday 20 June 2001 10:02 am, Brett Glass wrote: > > The San Jose Mercury News has just announced a "Roundtable" in which > > "experts" on open source software and a representative or two of > > Microsoft will debate licensing issues. It's described at > > > > http://www.siliconvalley.com/roundtable/ > > I see from the current list that we have an unusual mix of panelists. Since > you are now added to the list, there is a representative of the "fanatical" > wing of BSD included (no offense intended). I would also like to see the > "moderate" wing represented. > > One suggestion is Brian Behlendorf. He is not a member of the BSD community > per-se, but he is a core member of Apache which uses a BSD-like license, and > a member of the Open Source Initiative. Apache is the most successful Open > Source project to date, and it ain't under the GPL. > > -- > David Johnson > ___________________ > http://www.usermode.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 2:17:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CDF37B401 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4ECB1239A6E; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:17:08 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: spam filters (not FreeBSD specific) Message-ID: <20010621021708.H2984@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="X1xGqyAVbSpAWs5A" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Tue, Jun 19, 2001 at 03:43:47PM -0400 Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --X1xGqyAVbSpAWs5A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2001-06-19 15:43 -0400, Technical Information = wrote: >=20 > Does anybody have any good filtering rules for blocking spam? In=20 > particular, I'm looking for a solution that can be implemented with simpl= e=20 > string matching (no name lookups, no regular expressions) on a very simpl= e=20 > mail client. If there is a list of rules that anyone has or could point = me=20 > to, I'd be very appreciative. A list of rules that doesn't involve regular expressions is going to be difficult to find. Every usable spam-blocking product I know uses regexes. Will you explain why you want such a simple system? Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter The measure of a man is the way mailto:gsutter@zer0.org he bears up under misfortune. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ --Plutarch hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --X1xGqyAVbSpAWs5A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE7MbuUIBUx1YRd/t0RAg6pAJ9KTrYW/7NKc0w+Q+5PjTLeMrw3WQCcDIGL bKyQDvyWZXrGIJirhfZkGbU= =fO0U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --X1xGqyAVbSpAWs5A-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 2:44: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.knight-ridder.com (ns.knight-ridder.com [206.28.157.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52F537B401 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from JPaczkowski@knightridder.com) Received: by ns.knight-ridder.com; id FAA21219; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 05:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from krcoms2.knightridder.com(166.108.1.237) by ns.knight-ridder.com via smap (V5.5) id xma021192; Thu, 21 Jun 01 05:45:29 -0400 Received: by krcoms2.knightridder.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:08:27 -0400 Message-ID: <8721F5669568D411917200508BAC6199015ACBE1@krcoms1.knightridder.com> From: "Paczkowski, John" To: "'Brett Glass'" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: david@usermode.org, tchrist@chthon.perl.com, "Paczkowski, John" Subject: RE: Mercury News forum slanted toward GPL Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:12:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 'Morning folks: below you'll find my response to Brett's earlier message. as i mention below, our guest list has not yet been finalized. we went live today only in the hopes of promoting it. incidentally, Tom Christiansen was invited to participate, but never responded to the invitation. Perhaps it was sent to an incorrect address. Tom, if that is indeed the guess, the invitation stands and we'd love to have you as a guest. best, j __________________________________________________ John Paczkowski Good Morning Silicon Valley | http://www.gmsv.com SiliconValley.com | http://www.siliconvalley.com brett: our current guest list isn't quite final. there are several other participants who we're currently talking to who are not biased towards the GPL. hopefully, at least one more of them will agree to participate before we go live. that said, i messaged you specifically because you're one of the few folks i know who actually agrees with MS on this issue. i would encourage you to participate in this event *specifically* for those reasons you cite below. j -----Original Message----- From: Brett Glass [mailto:brett@lariat.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:03 AM To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: david@usermode.org; tchrist@chthon.perl.com; jpaczkowski@knightridder.com Subject: Mercury News forum slanted toward GPL The San Jose Mercury News has just announced a "Roundtable" in which "experts" on open source software and a representative or two of Microsoft will debate licensing issues. It's described at http://www.siliconvalley.com/roundtable/ Note that no one from the open source world who is CRITICAL of the GPL is there; the panel consists mostly of GPL advocates and then one Microsoft exec and one fellow whose philosophy can best be described as "corporate pseudo-Libertarian." The BSD license and the BSD philosophy have been denied a voice. Those who believe that the GPL is not a good license for freely redistributable and/or peer-reviewed software -- e.g. Tom Christiansen and David Johnson -- are not represented. Perhaps if folks here comment via the link at the bottom of the page, the BSD philosophy of maximum freedom -- without poison pills or restrictions motivated by spite -- could be represented. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 12:22:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE2837B406 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010621192243.CHFS25303.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:22:43 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010621151720.017b3320@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:22:32 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: spam filters (not FreeBSD specific) In-Reply-To: <20010621021708.H2984@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81> <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Basically it's a limitation of the software being used. I was looking to have something that I could implement relatively easily on the client side (Eudora, Outlook [Express], or even a web-based mailer). Most of the clients I've seen have only the simplest string matching facilities for filtering. I understand that I can't have the flexibility that is permitted with regular expressions. I also understand that the best filtering solution would be implemented on the POP server rather than at the client end. But since neither of those options is easily available to me, I'm just trying to hack together what I can for myself and my family. --Chip Morton At 05:17 AM 6/21/2001, you wrote: >A list of rules that doesn't involve regular expressions is going >to be difficult to find. Every usable spam-blocking product I >know uses regexes. Will you explain why you want such a simple >system? > >Greg >-- >Gregory S. Sutter The measure of a man is the way >mailto:gsutter@zer0.org he bears up under misfortune. >http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ --Plutarch >hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 13:26:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAB737B401 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f5LKQbV91908; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:26:37 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: spam filters (not FreeBSD specific) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010621151720.017b3320@threespace.com> Message-ID: <20010621162400.Q91608-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Technical Information wrote: > I also understand that the best filtering solution would be > implemented on the POP server rather than at the client end. The best spam filtering is on the ORIGINATING end, with Inquisition era implements and tactical nuclear weapons. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 15:32:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C55C37B401 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15DCzk-0004dw-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:32:12 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5LMWBm37903 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:32:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:32:10 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? Not including asm (unless there is an especialy exemplary example of obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are better at that ;-) what code is most likely to turn a newbie's brain to tapioca? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 15:46:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F9637B401 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5LMkUY13493; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:46:30 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010621151720.017b3320@threespace.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81> <4.3.2.7.2.20010619153313.017aae08@216.117.185.81> <4.3.2.7.2.20010621151720.017b3320@threespace.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:56:30 +0200 To: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: spam filters (not FreeBSD specific) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:22 PM -0400 6/21/01, Technical Information wrote: > Basically it's a limitation of the software being used. I was looking > to have something that I could implement relatively easily on the > client side (Eudora, Outlook [Express], or even a web-based mailer). > Most of the clients I've seen have only the simplest string matching > facilities for filtering. If that's your limitation, then I fear you are doomed to minimal filtering. The kinds of strings that you could potentially catch in junkmail change too quickly, and there's too much of a chance of a "false positive" (where something gets tagged as spam when it's not). I use Eudora myself, and my filtering is relatively minimal. First off, I look for certain e-mail addresses belonging to certain people that I know I don't ever want to hear from again, and that stuff gets tossed in the trash. I then search for the mailing lists I know that I've subscribed to, and they all go off into their respective folders. I then look for anything that actually has one of my e-mail addresses listed as one of the recipients, and then depending on which e-mail address it is, that either gets filed in my "home" or my "work" folder. Everything else (basically, anything sent to me from an address I don't recognize, and for which I am only an envelope recipient) will get left in my standard "inbox", which I have to sort through manually. I don't think that you can realistically expect to do much more than this with the kinds of simple filtering available in Eudora, or somesuch. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 17:29: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C4B37B403 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA67892; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 02:27:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jun 2001 02:27:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? > Not including asm (unless there is an especialy exemplary example of > obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are better at that ;-) what code is > most likely to turn a newbie's brain to tapioca? Most likely NFS, though it's not as bad as it used to be. The VFS system is probably a close second (namei() anyone?). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 21: 1:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59EED37B401 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA77791 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:02:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:02:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have given up on GUI mail agents. I have been using Pine for the last 6 months or so. Although I am contempt with it's interface all I read is how insecure Pine is. I also disklike it's insistanceon having /var/mail be mode 1777. Any recommendations for a good text based MUA? I have read about mutt in the past, but when I saw the list of dependencies I decided to stay away from it. I have a hard time using a text based program having so many dependencies. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 21 21: 7:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D20037B403 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA68630; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:07:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? References: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jun 2001 06:07:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes writes: > I have read about mutt in the past, but when I saw the list of > dependencies I decided to stay away from it. I have a hard time using a > text based program having so many dependencies. What dependencies were you thinking of? des@des ~% porteasy -lu mail/mutt devel/gettext (gettext-0.10.35) devel/libtool (libtool-1.3.4_2) * mail/mutt (mutt-1.2.5) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 1:35: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E06B37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 01:34:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5M876263193; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:07:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:07:06 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622090706.K8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eMP3JyRexyk9c0Bv" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 12:02:42AM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --eMP3JyRexyk9c0Bv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 12:02:42AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I have given up on GUI mail agents. I have been using Pine for the last 6 > months or so. Although I am contempt with it's interface all I read is how > insecure Pine is. I also disklike it's insistanceon having /var/mail > be mode 1777. >=20 > Any recommendations for a good text based MUA? > I have read about mutt in the past, but when I saw the list of > dependencies I decided to stay away from it. I have a hard time using a > text based program having so many dependencies. I'll second any Mutt recommendations, and echo any queries people make about "dependencies?". N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --eMP3JyRexyk9c0Bv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsy/KoACgkQk6gHZCw343XWEgCfa8qnJ9GIwtMn4KHdieY6CQkP aAAAn2+0eK0o7hDTf5r5lvFTH7T66p7t =O5nY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eMP3JyRexyk9c0Bv-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 3:24: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E6E37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA45138; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:22:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:22:38 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:27:41AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org When I took the two-day FreeBSD Internals course McKusick taught, he brought up the context-switching code. The original UNIX authors were not much on comments. When they put a comment, it was to explain something really, really, *really* difficult. Apparently there was a seven-word comment in the context switching code that gave him a bit of a start: "You are not expected to understand this." Don't know if it's still there, but it's still probably pretty scary. On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:27:41AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > j mckitrick writes: > > In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? > > Not including asm (unless there is an especialy exemplary example of > > obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are better at that ;-) what code is > > most likely to turn a newbie's brain to tapioca? > > Most likely NFS, though it's not as bad as it used to be. The VFS > system is probably a close second (namei() anyone?). > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 3:24:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83B437B407; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA45161; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:24:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:24:19 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Nik Clayton Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622062419.B45123@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622090706.K8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010622090706.K8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:07:06AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:07:06AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > I'll second any Mutt recommendations, and echo any queries people make > about "dependencies?". I used Elm from 1987(?)-2000, finally switched to Mutt. Both work, but Mutt is better. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 3:37:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0342E37B403; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MAbc644780 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:37:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA15874 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:38:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:38:38 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Michael Lucas Cc: Nik Clayton , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622123838.P7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010621235907.L4739-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622090706.K8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <20010622062419.B45123@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622062419.B45123@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:24:19AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Lucas said on Jun 22, 2001 at 06:24:19: > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:07:06AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > I'll second any Mutt recommendations, and echo any queries people make > > about "dependencies?". > > I used Elm from 1987(?)-2000, finally switched to Mutt. Both work, > but Mutt is better. Having used pine myself from 1994 (my first exposure to email) until late 1999 (switch to mutt), I too enthusiastically recommend mutt. The FreeBSD ports system takes care of dependencies; besides mutt, as other people comment, doesn't seem to have too many anyway. However, there are caveats: (1) if you're used to connecting to your mailserver on port 25 via your mail client to send your mail, you can't do that with mutt. You need to run some mta (which can be very minimalistic) on your local machine to do the job for you. (2) With mutt, sending attachments is a (slight) annoyance: you need to start editing the message, quit the editor, *then* remember to attach whatever you wanted. More than once I've promised an attachment in the message and then forgotten to include it. In pine you can type in the attachment first thing, before your message. (Maybe this can be configured, I just need to dig deeper? (3) The handling of aliases (addressbook) within the mailer is much less polished than in pine. I often end up editing the alias file manually. (4) I have some other peeves, but I had them with pine too. Besides, probably I can fix them if I rtfm, I'm just too lazy.... To me, the advantages of mutt (mainly: multiple mailboxes, threaded display, high configurability) outweighed all disadvantages. Pine too is catching up on those features, I've heard. However, having become used to mutt, I'm not going back... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 3:45:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A3737B40A for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15DORh-000Bkp-00; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:50 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5MAjnT52042; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:48 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Michael Lucas Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:22:38AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:22:38AM -0400, Michael Lucas wrote: | When I took the two-day FreeBSD Internals course McKusick taught, he | brought up the context-switching code. | | The original UNIX authors were not much on comments. When they put a | comment, it was to explain something really, really, *really* difficult. | | Apparently there was a seven-word comment in the context switching | code that gave him a bit of a start: "You are not expected to | understand this." Don't know if it's still there, but it's still | probably pretty scary. Is this supposed to be in C or asm? I thought context switches were among the only asm/machine dependent code. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 4: 9: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9892037B403 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA70107; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:07:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: j mckitrick Cc: Michael Lucas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Jun 2001 13:07:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > Is this supposed to be in C or asm? I thought context switches were among > the only asm/machine dependent code. Most of it is in C. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 4:23:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C0E37B403 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA79129; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:24:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010622072239.Q724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22 Jun 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Francisco Reyes writes: > > I have read about mutt in the past, but when I saw the list of > > dependencies I decided to stay away from it. I have a hard time using a > > text based program having so many dependencies. > > What dependencies were you thinking of? > > des@des ~% porteasy -lu mail/mutt > devel/gettext (gettext-0.10.35) > devel/libtool (libtool-1.3.4_2) > * mail/mutt (mutt-1.2.5) From freebsd.org/ports listing: mutt-1.2.5 The Mongrel of Mail User Agents (part Elm, Pine, Mush, mh, etc.) Maintained by: obrien@FreeBSD.org Requires: docbook-1.2, docbook-241, docbook-3.0, docbook-3.1, docbook-4.0, docbook-4.1, gettext-0.10.35, iso8879-1986, ispell-3.1.20c_3, jade-1.2.1_1, libslang-1.4.4_1, linuxdoc-1.1, mkcatalog-1.1, sgmlformat-1.7, urlview-0.9 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 4:29:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00D837B401; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA79149; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:30:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:30:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? In-Reply-To: <20010622123838.P7647@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20010622072708.K724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > However, there are caveats: > > (2) With mutt, sending attachments is a (slight) annoyance: you need > to start editing the message, quit the editor, *then* remember to > attach whatever you wanted. More than once I've promised an I have read about that before. I wonder why the authors have not considered a better solution. How active is development of mutt? > To me, the advantages of mutt (mainly: multiple mailboxes, threaded > display, high configurability) Thanks for the feedback. Multiple mailboxes is a very usefull feature. Pine with it's role function at least allows to send mail out with different IDs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 4:44:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DCD37B403; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MBil651723 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:44:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA19071 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622134547.Q7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Francisco Reyes , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622123838.P7647@lpt.ens.fr> <20010622072708.K724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622072708.K724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 07:30:14AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes said on Jun 22, 2001 at 07:30:14: > How active is development of mutt? The last stable version is nearly a year old, but work is active on the development version, I believe. > Thanks for the feedback. Multiple mailboxes is a very usefull feature. > Pine with it's role function at least allows to send mail out with > different IDs. You can configure that sort of thing to your heart's desire with mutt. You can have "hooks" to change your ID depending on current folder, recipient, etc. For instance, I've configured it to use my old address for mailing lists, to try and keep newer ones away from spammers. You can also configure your fcc, signature, custom headers, etc using these hooks. Combined with procmail for filtering your incoming mail and sorting it into different mailboxes it is very convenient. (I heard pine can now be configured to do this sorting on startup; mutt can't, but I think procmail is a nicer solution anyway.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 4:47:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98EAD37B413 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MBle652225 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:47:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA19236 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:48:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:48:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622134840.R7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Francisco Reyes , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622072239.Q724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622072239.Q724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 07:24:01AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes said on Jun 22, 2001 at 07:24:01: > > >From freebsd.org/ports listing: > mutt-1.2.5 The Mongrel of Mail User Agents (part Elm, Pine, Mush, mh, etc.) > Maintained by: obrien@FreeBSD.org > Requires: docbook-1.2, docbook-241, docbook-3.0, docbook-3.1, > docbook-4.0, docbook-4.1, gettext-0.10.35, iso8879-1986, > ispell-3.1.20c_3, jade-1.2.1_1, libslang-1.4.4_1, linuxdoc-1.1, > mkcatalog-1.1, sgmlformat-1.7, urlview-0.9 Most of those seem to be optional, the default build won't pull them (ie docbook, jade, sgmlformat etc). R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5: 1:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25CB37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA79233; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:02:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:01:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? In-Reply-To: <20010622134840.R7647@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Where does mutt places it's files? Doesn't seem to be ~/Mail even though it just created that dir. Man page didn't help. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5: 5:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E99F37B408 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MC5Z654498 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:05:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA19931 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:06:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:06:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622140636.S7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622134840.R7647@lpt.ens.fr> <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:01:48AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Where does mutt places it's files? Which files? The most important file is .muttrc, and everything can be configured via that. My mail folders are in ~/mail, but I don't remember right now whether that's the default. Take some time to read the mutt manual, and configure your .muttrc carefully (using one of the samples to start with). It took me nearly 2 days to get it all satisfactory but it was time well spent. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5: 7:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sarajevo.idealx.com (sarajevo.idealx.com [213.41.87.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C6E37B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olivier.tharan@idealx.com) Received: from singer.ird.idealx.com (singer.ird.idealx.com [192.168.0.1]) by sarajevo.idealx.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5MC7cK07524 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:07:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from solferino.ird.idealx.com (solferino.ird.idealx.com [192.168.0.44]) by singer.ird.idealx.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f5MC7Xs24595 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:07:33 +0200 Received: by solferino.ird.idealx.com (Postfix, from userid 1049) id 8AB48A4E5; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:07:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:07:33 +0200 From: Olivier Tharan To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622140733.C3809@ird.idealx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010622123838.P7647@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan (20010622 12:38): > (2) With mutt, sending attachments is a (slight) annoyance: you need > to start editing the message, quit the editor, *then* remember to > attach whatever you wanted. More than once I've promised an Yes, it is easy to forget ; but you can always save and quit the editor, attach the document *and* then type 'e' to resume the editing of your message. olive -- Olivier Tharan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5: 8:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19CC37B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MC8X655028 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:08:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA20069 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:09:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:09:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622140934.T7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622134840.R7647@lpt.ens.fr> <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622140636.S7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622140636.S7647@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:06:36PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Jun 22, 2001 at 14:06:36: > > Take some time to read the mutt manual, by "manual" I mean the stuff in /usr/local/share/mutt/manual.txt (a html version also exists in the source tarball -- left out by the FreeBSD port -- or on http://www.mutt.org) not the manpage. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:11:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61EF37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [192.168.10.6]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA79254; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:12:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lists@natserv.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:12:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? In-Reply-To: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Message-ID: <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Where does mutt places it's files? > Doesn't seem to be ~/Mail even though it just created that dir. > Man page didn't help. Found it. So mutt keeps its mail in /var/mail? Any good tutorials before I plunge into /usr/local/share/doc/mutt? Reading www.mutt.org makes one get the impression that just getting mutt to work is a project in itself. :-( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:16:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28D437B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MCGK655881 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:16:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA20500 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:17:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:17:20 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622141720.U7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:12:29AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes said on Jun 22, 2001 at 08:12:29: > Found it. > So mutt keeps its mail in /var/mail? No, your local mail delivery agent keeps the incoming mail in /var/mail. Mutt has nothing to do with that. If you want to configure that in detail, look into procmail. > Any good tutorials before I plunge into /usr/local/share/doc/mutt? You could search the web: I don't know of any. > Reading www.mutt.org makes one get the impression that just getting mutt > to work is a project in itself. :-( True. At the very minimum, you should be willing to edit ASCII text configuration files. But it's not as bad as it looks, once you understand the "philosophy". R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:27:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pippo.dada.it (giovit.dada.it [195.110.97.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E6037B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drummino@yahoo.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by pippo.dada.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f5MCQ4N02062 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:26:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from drummino@yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:26:04 +0200 From: Matteo To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622142603.A2033@pippo.dada.it> Reply-To: drummino@yahoo.com References: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from Francisco Reyes on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:12:29AM -0400 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i on FreeBSD 4.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:12:29AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Found it. > So mutt keeps its mail in /var/mail? You can set "spoolfile" in your configuration file as you like. > Any good tutorials before I plunge into /usr/local/share/doc/mutt? Try to read some configuration files at: http://www.mutt.org/links.html#config Bye. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:28:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F36037B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:27:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 66835 invoked by uid 100); 22 Jun 2001 12:01:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:01:03 -0500 To: j mckitrick Cc: Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:22:38AM -0400, Michael Lucas wrote: > | When I took the two-day FreeBSD Internals course McKusick taught, he > | brought up the context-switching code. > | > | The original UNIX authors were not much on comments. When they put a > | comment, it was to explain something really, really, *really* difficult. > | > | Apparently there was a seven-word comment in the context switching > | code that gave him a bit of a start: "You are not expected to > | understand this." Don't know if it's still there, but it's still > | probably pretty scary. > > Is this supposed to be in C or asm? I thought context switches were among > the only asm/machine dependent code. For the v6 kernel, this is in C code. I never went looking for it in later code, so I don't know when it vanished. The comment in question is a couple of paragraphs, followed by that seven-word note. If I remember correctly - my copy of Lyons being in storage - the code was the context-switching code, and what was being explained was the mechanism that was used to start the first process, which involved very machine-dependent work so that that code would do the job. Since it's been a decade or two since I looked at that code, I may not remember correctly. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:32:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arcadia.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6428337B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:32:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by arcadia.megadeb.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f5MCYnt02938 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:34:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:34:49 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622143449.G284@arcadia.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622134840.R7647@lpt.ens.fr> <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622140636.S7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010622140636.S7647@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:06:36PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:06:36PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Take some time to read the mutt manual, and configure your .muttrc > carefully (using one of the samples to start with). It took me nearly 2 > days to get it all satisfactory but it was time well spent. It's taken me quite a while to configure mine too, but just getting the basic .muttrc up was quite easy thanks too the muttrc-builder at http://mutt.netliberte.org. Quite useful... -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:36:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F384837B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5MCa6658140 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:36:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA21318 ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:37:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:37:06 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622143706.W7647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List References: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:12:29AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Any good tutorials before I plunge into /usr/local/share/doc/mutt? You can take a look at Telsa Gwynne's (wife of Alan Cox of linux) sample: http://www.linux.org.uk/~telsa/BitsAndPieces/muttrc-1.0 Note that mutt is now at version 1.2 and there are some thing you'll need to change (as on the mutt.org page) for the above to work. Her page also has a sample .procmailrc and other stuff, see http://www.linux.org.uk/~telsa/BitsAndPieces/cave.html -R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 5:39:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792BF37B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15DQDR-000COc-00; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:39:13 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5MCdCr54397; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:39:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:39:12 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 07:01:03AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | For the v6 kernel, this is in C code. I never went looking for it in | later code, so I don't know when it vanished. I'm sorry, but what is v6? | The comment in question is a couple of paragraphs, followed by that | seven-word note. If I remember correctly - my copy of Lyons being in | storage - the code was the context-switching code, and what was being | explained was the mechanism that was used to start the first process, | which involved very machine-dependent work so that that code would do | the job. Is this code gone, then? Which source files contain this routine in FreeBSD now? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 6: 6:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9092537B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5MD2gb89972; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:02:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:02:42 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: j mckitrick Cc: Mike Meyer , Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622140242.R8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org> <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tgGnixv3tJWXBxdL" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 01:39:12PM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --tgGnixv3tJWXBxdL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 01:39:12PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > | For the v6 kernel, this is in C code. I never went looking for it in > | later code, so I don't know when it vanished. >=20 > I'm sorry, but what is v6? >=20 > | The comment in question is a couple of paragraphs, followed by that > | seven-word note. If I remember correctly - my copy of Lyons being in > | storage - the code was the context-switching code, and what was being > | explained was the mechanism that was used to start the first process, > | which involved very machine-dependent work so that that code would do > | the job. >=20 > Is this code gone, then? Which source files contain this routine in Free= BSD > now? See http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html A quick check through the FreeBSD source shows homage in src/boot/pc98/boot2/io.c, sys/i386/boot/biosboot/io.c, sys/pc98/boot/biosboot/io.c, and sys/pci/ncr.c. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --tgGnixv3tJWXBxdL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjszQfEACgkQk6gHZCw343XUmQCfQohjSYLOFiW+7sBRrtQzIeu+ Z4oAnRJnlfEvjoSz3MfMGTn8juf8Krsw =Dt8t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tgGnixv3tJWXBxdL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 6:19: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138E737B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 11F5E1F55; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:19:01 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622091901.A8800@acidpit.org> References: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622080420.V10127-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:12:29 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > Found it. > So mutt keeps its mail in /var/mail? No, this isn't something mutt does. You can configure mutt to leave mail in that location if you want (isn't this on by default?), but it's been so long, I can't remember. My procmailrc is setup to move incoming mail to $HOME/Incoming, due to the way I read my mail this is really mandatory for me. In mutt, I configured it to read that instead of /var/mail set spoolfile=$HOME/Mail/Incoming > Any good tutorials before I plunge into /usr/local/share/doc/mutt? Search google for .muttrc - that's where I got started. Couple that with the docs, and I had mutt pretty well configured for everything I wanted within a week. > Reading www.mutt.org makes one get the impression that just getting mutt > to work is a project in itself. :-( Mutt, is the BSD of mailers. It takes awhile to learn the ropes, but once you get it - nothing can really compare. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 6:23:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AB3637B408 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 69105 invoked by uid 100); 22 Jun 2001 13:23:17 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15155.18117.503229.474582@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:23:17 -0500 To: j mckitrick Cc: Mike Meyer , Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org> <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > | For the v6 kernel, this is in C code. I never went looking for it in > | later code, so I don't know when it vanished. > I'm sorry, but what is v6? Unix v6, aka Sixth Edition. See for more information on how that fits into the history of Unix. > | The comment in question is a couple of paragraphs, followed by that > | seven-word note. If I remember correctly - my copy of Lyons being in > | storage - the code was the context-switching code, and what was being > | explained was the mechanism that was used to start the first process, > | which involved very machine-dependent work so that that code would do > | the job. > Is this code gone, then? Which source files contain this routine in FreeBSD > now? Looks like Nik already gave you pointers to both the source for the comment, and where that functionality appears to be now. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 6:29:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8BF37B401; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 06:29:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15DR08-000Dpi-00; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:29:32 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5MDTVm55364; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:29:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:29:31 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Nik Clayton Cc: Mike Meyer , Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622142931.A55336@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org> <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622140242.R8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010622140242.R8380@clan.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@freebsd.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:02:42PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html Great stuff here, thanks! | A quick check through the FreeBSD source shows homage in | src/boot/pc98/boot2/io.c, sys/i386/boot/biosboot/io.c, | sys/pc98/boot/biosboot/io.c, and sys/pci/ncr.c. Glad to see it lives on :-) Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 11:45:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E9FA537B403 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:22 PDT Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Brad, I am sure you'll love to flame Mr Raskin now. Just be authorative. http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2778897,00.html OTOH they note the biggest number of developers which is good. David Read, MacCentral, Special to eWEEK June 21, 2001 11:52 AM ET DEARBORN, Mich. -- This year's MacHack conference got off to a rousing start here early Thursday morning with a reunion of the top engineers and programmers who created the Mac. For almost six hours, seven of the individuals responsible for the creation of the first Macintosh -- Daniel Kottke, Bill Atkinson, Donn Denman, Andy Hertzfeld, Jef Raskin, Caroline Rose and Randy Wigginton -- talked about their experiences developing one of the world's most influential personal computers. MacHack conference chairman John Penn addressed the audience before the speakers came on stage, saying that this reunion had attracted the biggest audience ever to the annual developers' gathering. Also in the audience was Apple Computer Inc. co-founder Steve Wozniak, who will appear in a "fireside chat" Thursday evening to discuss his past at Apple and the future of the Mac. (Two Mac pioneers were unavoidably sidelined from the keynote event: Bud Tribble was stopped by family obligations, and Bruce Horn was grounded in Phoenix by a cancelled flight.) The keynote event opened with moderator Scott Knaster asking each panelist about his or her personal history developing the Mac. Knaster also asked for the panel's thoughts about Mac OS X and Apple co-founder and CEO Steve Jobs, and their predictions for the Macintosh and computing in general. Knaster also invited the audience to ask questions. Mac OS X All of the panelists agreed that Mac OS X looks beautiful, but most expressed misgivings about the new user interface, its lack of documentation and the completeness of its implementation. The speakers criticized Mac OS X's lack of support for some basic services that are supported in Mac OS 9. For example, Atkinson said that while he finds color synchronization absolutely essential in his work as a nature photographer, Mac OS X's support of this feature is not developed enough for him to use it. He said he will stick Mac OS 9.1 until this feature is fully and accurately implemented in Mac OS X; even then, Atkinson said, he expects to migrate slowly, moving one of his Macs at a time to the new OS. Raskin said he feels a "strong moral imperative" to provide the best UI possible. A poorly designed UI can sap productivity and physically hurt users from repetitive-stress injuries. Raskin, the author of "The Humane Interface," is a leader in the field. His UI design philosophy was one of the tenets at the foundation of the early Macintosh's design. "The internal improvements of Mac OS X are long overdue, but the UI -- well, yuck!" he said. "Apple has ignored for years all that has been learned about developing UIs. It's unprofessional, incompetent, and it's hurting users." Hertzfeld was less critical of the UI, offering a mixed bag of what he liked and disliked about the new OS. He suggested that it is not yet a mature product and that it will improve as it goes through changes. "It's definitely better than Windows," Hertzfeld said. Wigginton agreed, saying that the UI has "a ways to go." Steve Jobs Love him or hate him, Steve Jobs' career and the path of the Macintosh are intertwined. While many of the panelists berated Jobs for his personal quirks and unique management style, most agreed that it was his will, perseverance and passion that created the Macintosh and saved Apple. Denman said that Jobs could have an abrasive management style and that people who work with him need to be strong enough to justify their decisions when Jobs challenges them. According to the panelists, the small, independent Macintosh project was created in reaction to Apple's early-'80s management team, which (despite the Apple II's success) was slowing development and slowly eroding Jobs' control. The speakers lauded Jobs' passion for excellence, drive, design sense, and marketing savvy at the same time they criticized his inability to share control. Some of the panelists took their remarks further. "It is not clear how Apple can keep going with just new pretty boxes without a revolution," Raskin said. "Apple needs to pay more than lip service to open-source development," Hertzfeld said, if the company is to grow and woo new developers. "Apple is in a cul-de-sac, and I don't see [Jobs] as the leader who can lead Apple out of it." "Don't ever count Apple out," Wigginton said. "But don't expect revolutions from Apple unless their backs are to the wall. Right now, things are pretty fat, but when magazines start counting Apple out, then you'll see something." MacHack runs until Saturday. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 12: 9: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE4B37B403 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5MJ8sY11990; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:08:55 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:08:48 +0200 To: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:45 AM -0700 6/22/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > I am sure you'll love to flame Mr Raskin now. Just be authorative. > > http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2778897,00.html No, not at all. I have the greatest respect for both Jef Raskin and Jakob Nielsen. Everything I've seen so far about Aqua leads me to believe that there is a lot more work that needs to be done on it, and I haven't cared at all for the new "home entertainment" style that Apple has been applying recently to all their programs (QuickTime, iMovie, etc...). Indeed, Jef is absolutely right -- Apple has been sacrificing usability for useless eye-candy, and Apple would be very well served by re-hiring Jef to fix all their more recent stupid UI mistakes. After all, he is the original author of the Apple Human Interface Guidelines, and he really does know what he's talking about. Hell, this whole UI issue is another significant reason why I haven't upgraded to MacOS 10.0.4 yet. I don't know where you get these bizarre ideas that somehow the things you're saying are the same as what others are saying, and that because I disagree with you, I must necessarily therefore be required to also disagree with them. Indeed, I see absolutely nothing in common between what I've heard from you and what I've seen from the likes of Jef Raskin. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 12:19:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A8137B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:19:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bartequi@neomedia.it) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.3/8.10.1) id f5MJI6K17804; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:18:06 +0200 (CEST) To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Joachim_Str=F6m?=bergson Subject: Re: Microsoft uses FreeBSD Message-ID: <993237486.3b3399ee48e5b@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:18:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Donn Miller , Kenneth Mays , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.153.233 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat, since it begins to be WOT ] > The GPL is just a detail MS can aim for in their FUD attacks. The > business folks buying MS products are managers that (my generalisation) > are technically clueless, but somewhat better dealing with numbers, > dollars Euros and so on. If they weren't, they wouldn't buy :-) > These kinds of people react badly to words like "communism", "cancer" > and other fearful words that sounds bad for business. If MS can connect > (in the minds of the customers) Linux and FSF with such words and > phrases, Linux will have a much harder sale. > MS are always trying to establish these kinds of words, phrases and > associations. "Freedom to innovate", anyone? Rather than attack "communism", "cancer", etc., M$ actually turn out to attack the methods of [open] scientific research itself (!). M$'s ahem "commercial" approach to software development (FUD, marketing, deadlines...) seems NOT to have much to do with the aforementioned methods, albeit their highly skilled [?] programmers are supposed to (or should) be applying software engineering methods. If there were a way to connect (in the minds of the customers) M$'s FUD with **this** idea (ie the attack on scientific[-like] research methods), M$ would have a much harder sale... N.B. in this connection, it is also important to note that M$'s behavio(u)r is indeed [the] most anti-american in that, inter alia (DOJ docet), it is against innovation. Just my 2 picoEuro. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 12:50:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3ABF437B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:50:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 29182 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Jun 2001 19:46:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:46:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: j mckitrick Cc: Mike Meyer , Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20010622133911.A53884@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > I'm sorry, but what is v6? sixth edition unix -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14: 3:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [64.211.219.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE94837B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:03:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08707; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:03:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAT_a48q; Fri Jun 22 14:03:19 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28366; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:07:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106222107.OAA28366@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Jun 21, 2001 11:32:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? > Not including asm (unless there is an especialy exemplary example of > obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are better at that ;-) what code is > most likely to turn a newbie's brain to tapioca? A good candidate for "most magic numbers" is /sys/i386/include/pmap.h: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #ifndef NKPT #define NKPT 30 /* actual number of kernel page tables * / #endif #ifndef NKPDE #ifdef SMP #define NKPDE 254 /* addressable number of page tables/pde 's */ #else #define NKPDE 255 /* addressable number of page tables/pde 's */ #endif /* SMP */ #endif /* * The *PTDI values control the layout of virtual memory * * XXX This works for now, but I am not real happy with it, I'll fix it * right after I fix locore.s and the magic 28K hole * * SMP_PRIVPAGES: The per-cpu address space is 0xff80000 -> 0xffbfffff */ #define APTDPTDI (NPDEPG-1) /* alt ptd entry that points to APTD */ #ifdef SMP #define MPPTDI (APTDPTDI-1) /* per cpu ptd entry */ #define KPTDI (MPPTDI-NKPDE) /* start of kernel virtual pde's */ #else #define KPTDI (APTDPTDI-NKPDE)/* start of kernel virtual pde's */ #endif /* SMP */ #define PTDPTDI (KPTDI-1) /* ptd entry that points to ptd! */ #define UMAXPTDI (PTDPTDI-1) /* ptd entry for user space end */ #define UMAXPTEOFF (NPTEPG) /* pte entry for user space end */ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A good runner up for code would be in /sys/i386/i386/machdep.c: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- static void f00f_hack(void *unused) { struct gate_descriptor *new_idt; #ifndef SMP struct region_descriptor r_idt; #endif vm_offset_t tmp; if (!has_f00f_bug) return; printf("Intel Pentium detected, installing workaround for F00F bug\n"); r_idt.rd_limit = sizeof(idt0) - 1; tmp = kmem_alloc(kernel_map, PAGE_SIZE * 2); if (tmp == 0) panic("kmem_alloc returned 0"); if (((unsigned int)tmp & (PAGE_SIZE-1)) != 0) panic("kmem_alloc returned non-page-aligned memory"); /* Put the first seven entries in the lower page */ new_idt = (struct gate_descriptor*)(tmp + PAGE_SIZE - (7*8)); bcopy(idt, new_idt, sizeof(idt0)); r_idt.rd_base = (int)new_idt; lidt(&r_idt); idt = new_idt; if (vm_map_protect(kernel_map, tmp, tmp + PAGE_SIZE, VM_PROT_READ, FALSE) != KERN_SUCCESS) panic("vm_map_protect failed"); return; } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14: 6: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [64.211.219.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF32537B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA90194; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:06:03 -0700 Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdUk6TUa; Fri Jun 22 14:05:58 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28427; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:10:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:10:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Jun 22, 2001 02:27:41 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? > > Not including asm (unless there is an especialy exemplary example of > > obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are better at that ;-) what code is > > most likely to turn a newbie's brain to tapioca? > > Most likely NFS, though it's not as bad as it used to be. The VFS > system is probably a close second (namei() anyone?). The NFS is pretty clean, as long as you take the macros at face value when reading the code. The VFS code is trivial, if you just understand call-by-descriptor, which OpenSSL, libXt, libXaw, libXm, etc., all use. It's a common technique. The linker set code is odd. The build process for device modules is pretty opaque, especially when moving drivers between 4.x and 5.x. Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming language, useful only for throw-away code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:10:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [64.211.219.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0E437B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10297; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:10:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAO1a4eu; Fri Jun 22 14:10:49 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28441; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:14:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106222114.OAA28441@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? To: mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org (Michael Lucas) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:14:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> from "Michael Lucas" at Jun 22, 2001 06:22:38 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > When I took the two-day FreeBSD Internals course McKusick taught, he > brought up the context-switching code. > > The original UNIX authors were not much on comments. When they put a > comment, it was to explain something really, really, *really* difficult. > > Apparently there was a seven-word comment in the context switching > code that gave him a bit of a start: "You are not expected to > understand this." Don't know if it's still there, but it's still > probably pretty scary. That's the startup code following relocation, where they push a return address value on the stack, and then return to start running on a different stack. In FreeBSD, this is in /sys/i386/i386/locore.s: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- /* Now enable paging */ movl R(_IdlePTD), %eax movl %eax,%cr3 /* load ptd addr into mmu */ movl %cr0,%eax /* get control word */ orl $CR0_PE|CR0_PG,%eax /* enable paging */ movl %eax,%cr0 /* and let's page NOW! */ #ifdef BDE_DEBUGGER /* * Complete the adjustments for paging so that we can keep tracing through * initi386() after the low (physical) addresses for the gdt and idt become * invalid. */ call bdb_commit_paging #endif pushl $begin /* jump to high virtualized address */ ret ------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not that hard to understand, since it's in assembly language; the original stack-SPAM from C was much, much dirtier, and ended up being non-portable. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:15:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C32737B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15DYGo-000KTL-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:15:14 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5MLFDr64794 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:15:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:14:53 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622221453.B64495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:10:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | The VFS code is trivial, if you just understand call-by-descriptor, could you explain what call-by-descriptor is? | Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming | language, useful only for throw-away code. Guess i should cancel my order for the Camel book from O'Reilly ;-) Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:15:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [64.211.219.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A558537B408 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15260; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:15:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAnIa4PD; Fri Jun 22 14:15:06 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28520; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:19:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106222119.OAA28520@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:19:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Jun 22, 2001 09:10:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The linker set code is odd. > > The build process for device modules is pretty opaque, especially > when moving drivers between 4.x and 5.x. > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > language, useful only for throw-away code. Forgot: The signal trampoline is pretty weird. The threads library signal masking to get around the non-restart of signals that was brought into BSD with POSIX (the default used to be signal restart) causes problems. There's a guy who is having trouble with a siglongjmp() out of a signal handler when using threads, right now. I guess he doesn't understand that the thread that gets the signal and does the siglongjmp() is not necessarily the thread that did the original setjmp()... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:20: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CF137B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15DYLS-000KU4-00; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:20:02 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5MLK1V64905; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:20:01 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:20:01 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622222000.C64495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <200106222114.OAA28441@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200106222114.OAA28441@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:14:56PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found this in a link given to me by mike meyer. It's from Ritchie's webpage: retu(rp->p_addr); sureg(); /* * If the new process paused because it was * swapped out, set the stack level to the last call * to savu(u_ssav). This means that the return * which is executed immediately after the call to aretu * actually returns from the last routine which did * the savu. * * You are not expected to understand this. */ if(rp->p_flag&SSWAP) { rp->p_flag =& ~SSWAP; aretu(u.u_ssav); } /* * The value returned here has many subtle implications. * See the newproc comments. */ return(1); So we tried to explain what was going on. "You are not expected to understand this" was intended as a remark in the spirit of "This won't be on the exam," rather than as an impudent challenge. | That's the startup code following relocation, where they push | a return address value on the stack, and then return to start | running on a different stack. | | In FreeBSD, this is in /sys/i386/i386/locore.s: | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | /* Now enable paging */ | movl R(_IdlePTD), %eax | movl %eax,%cr3 /* load ptd addr into mmu */ | movl %cr0,%eax /* get control word */ | orl $CR0_PE|CR0_PG,%eax /* enable paging */ | movl %eax,%cr0 /* and let's page NOW! */ | | #ifdef BDE_DEBUGGER | /* | * Complete the adjustments for paging so that we can keep tracing through | * initi386() after the low (physical) addresses for the gdt and idt become | * invalid. | */ | call bdb_commit_paging | #endif | | pushl $begin /* jump to high virtualized address */ | ret | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | It's not that hard to understand, since it's in assembly language; | the original stack-SPAM from C was much, much dirtier, and ended up | being non-portable. | | -- Terry Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:30: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA23C37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@tobez.org) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 755FA543D; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:29:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:29:42 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:10:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:10:03PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD > > > codebase? Not including asm (unless there is an especialy > > > exemplary example of obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are > > > better at that ;-) what code is most likely to turn a newbie's > > > brain to tapioca? > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > language, useful only for throw-away code. Wow, wow. Opinions are strong here, aren't they? ;-) \Anton. -- You shouldn't be intimidated by this issue at all, since Perl is your friend. -- Apache mod_perl guide To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:36:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C3E37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id RAA03215; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:35:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <200106222119.OAA28520@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The linker set code is odd. > > > > The build process for device modules is pretty opaque, especially > > when moving drivers between 4.x and 5.x. > > > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > > language, useful only for throw-away code. > > Forgot: > > The signal trampoline is pretty weird. > > The threads library signal masking to get around the non-restart > of signals that was brought into BSD with POSIX (the default used > to be signal restart) causes problems. There's a guy who is > having trouble with a siglongjmp() out of a signal handler when > using threads, right now. I guess he doesn't understand that the > thread that gets the signal and does the siglongjmp() is not > necessarily the thread that did the original setjmp()... Actually, I think this is FreeBSDs problem. I'm gonna look at it when I get some time (after USENIX hopefully). Under the threaded library in -stable, siglongjmp uses _thread_sys_sigprocmask() to restore the signal mask. This doesn't affect the _threads_ signal mask, though. Before the thread runs the signal handler, we add the current signal to the threads signal mask (like you're suppose to do). But when it siglongjmps out of the handler, the thread still has the signal masked. The next time the signal occurs, the threads library can't find a thread with the signal unmasked so it stores it as pending for the process and resumes processing the runnable threads. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:40:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4718B37B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 9842 invoked by uid 100); 22 Jun 2001 21:40:10 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:40:10 -0500 To: Anton Berezin Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anton Berezin types: > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:10:03PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > > language, useful only for throw-away code. > Wow, wow. Opinions are strong here, aren't they? ;-) I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:43:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D7EC37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:43:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@tobez.org) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B07855450; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:43:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:43:25 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: Mike Meyer Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 04:40:10PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 04:40:10PM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Anton Berezin types: > > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:10:03PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > > > language, useful only for throw-away code. > > Wow, wow. Opinions are strong here, aren't they? ;-) > > I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly > readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. perl -pe 's,.,,sg if $_{+lc}++' out Like this, you mean? ;-) \Anton. -- May the tuna salad be with you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:44: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [64.211.219.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97DA37B426 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA32666; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:43:57 -0700 Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd3lZ_7a; Fri Jun 22 14:43:54 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28698; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:47:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106222147.OAA28698@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? To: tobez@tobez.org (Anton Berezin) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:47:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> from "Anton Berezin" at Jun 22, 2001 11:29:42 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD > > > > codebase? Not including asm (unless there is an especialy > > > > exemplary example of obfuscated code, but it seems compilers are > > > > better at that ;-) what code is most likely to turn a newbie's > > > > brain to tapioca? > > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > > language, useful only for throw-away code. > > Wow, wow. Opinions are strong here, aren't they? ;-) If you can show me tools to enforce style and correctness, I am willing to recant. The lack of "one true way" to do everything means that perl is the programming language equivalent of "Standards are wonderful, because there are so many to choose from". C has this disease to a much lesser extent (and then it's mostly to do with pointer math and conversion of array elements and intentional casting. Oh, yeah: and volatile sucks: have you read DMR's diatrive against ANSI C? As the inventor of the language, I'd say he's entitled to his opinions on it... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 14:47:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [64.211.219.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5F437B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01560; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:47:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAeXaqad; Fri Jun 22 14:47:36 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28766; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:51:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:51:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tobez@tobez.org (Anton Berezin), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Jun 22, 2001 04:40:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > > > language, useful only for throw-away code. > > Wow, wow. Opinions are strong here, aren't they? ;-) > > I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly > readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. Heh. Perl rivals APL as "the best language to use if you want to swing a dead cat at the keyboard and end up with a running program". Anyone else remember TECO lottery? You baged down on a bunch of random keys on the keyboard in command mode, and then you tried to figure out what it would actually do to the edit buffer as a result of hitting return. If you were right, you won... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 15:16:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0B737B427 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@tobez.org) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4E334543D; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:16:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:16:12 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010623001612.C53155@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <200106222147.OAA28698@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106222147.OAA28698@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:47:44PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:47:44PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Anything with "perl" code in it: it's a write-only programming > > > language, useful only for throw-away code. > > > > Wow, wow. Opinions are strong here, aren't they? ;-) > If you can show me tools to enforce style and correctness, I am > willing to recant. I am not going to comment on the tools to enforce correctness, as I am not aware of any non-toy project which was programmed using such tools. As for enforcing style, that's different. You seem to imply here, and please correct me if I am wrong, that some of the existing ways of doing things in Perl should not be there, because everything can be done using much limited number of ways. I disagree with this opinion. Like any other language, Perl has a number of idiomatic ways of doing things. Such idioms are immediately recognized (and used) by any programmer who knows the language. The problem with Perl is that the sheer number of these idioms is larger than in the majority of other languages. This leads to a fact, that Perl itself is a big language, and therefore it is difficult to learn Perl well. This also means that people who do not know Perl enough, or at all, get an impression that Perl is a mess, a language without any style, a write-only language. > The lack of "one true way" to do everything means that perl is the > programming language equivalent of "Standards are wonderful, because > there are so many to choose from". As with any other language, it is good to use the right tool (the right language construct) for the job. There are just more tools available. =Anton. -- May the tuna salad be with you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 16:16:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DF3C37B40A for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 12560 invoked by uid 100); 22 Jun 2001 23:16:42 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:16:42 -0500 To: Bill Moran Cc: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? In-Reply-To: <78189409@toto.iv> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved from -questions to -chat.] Bill Moran types: > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that loophole. Just because you get email sent to a list of people that you didn't opt to be on doesn't mean you got spammed. Even if it's business mail. Sure, it's a form letter. But it was sent to an existing customer - didn't it have your proper name on it, not just an email address? The reply address works. It went direct from a machine owned by Wind River - a bsdi machine - to my mail hub. It's target at people who are - or were - interested in FreeBSD. None of the things that characterize spam are there, except that you didn't ask for it, and it's from a business. It's the same kind of thing as an uncle of mine who added me to his alias to forward jokes the first time he's seen them - never mind I saw most of them when they were posted to rec.humor.funny in the '80s. Since I like him, I tend to just delete them. For businesses - and almost everyone who does business on the web does this kind of thing - I add a filter to my .qmail file so they get bounces. For spam, I complain about it. Always. > Secondly, the return address is "FreeBSDCustomerRelations@windriver.com" > which seems a little odd to me. Since when is Windriver in charge of > FreeBSD Customer Relations? Technically, are they anything other than > another supporter of the project? I think that technically, you've got it. On the other hand, they now sell - well, they own a company that sells - a product that's called FreeBSD. Having a maildrop for dealing with customers of that product isn't unreasonable. It's sort of like if Corel had a linuxcustomerrelations@corel.com, for dealing with the linux distribution they sell and/or give away. > The email then goes on to say "Wind River picked up two software product > lines from BSDi: the proprietary BSD/OS and the open-source FreeBSD." > While the email later explains that Windriver does not (and can not) > _own_ FreeBSD, the intial sentence seems rather ominous. There statement is true. Walnut Creek initiated a software product line around FreeBSD: subscriptions, 4-disk releases, the complete package, and the desktop package. That's all software, and it certainly looks like a product line to me. BSDi acquired that product line with Walnut Creek, and Wind River got it with BSDi. > The fact that they've attached the rest as a "rider" is what I'm > objecting to, I suppose. That's no worse than Walnut Creek - and then BSDi - throwing catalogs in with every thing I order from them. I even wind up paying shipping with all of it. It sure beats what happened with 4.2, when some unknown percentage of people didn't get theirs, and didn't get any notification unless they called to ask about it. > Maybe I'm over-reacting a lot with regard to this subject, but it sure > looks like Windriver has compromised FreeBSDMall's contact information > to spam me, and hidden a brief FreeBSDMall message inside the spam to > make it seem legitimate. I think you're over-reacting. From the evidence I have, FreeBSDMall is now owned by Wind River. Since they own the contact list, they can't really compromise it. This company that was distributing FreeBSD distributions is under new management. That generally means new practices, some of which you may not like. If that's the case, try sending a polite request in reply to the mail asking that they take you off whatever list they're using. If they refuse, then it's time to get upset. If they make a habit of this - doing it more than once a year or so - I'll probably ask that they take me off the list as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 17:24:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9968937B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: from iowna.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5N0Kns25333; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:23:25 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > [Moved from -questions to -chat.] Honored. > Bill Moran types: > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). > > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that > loophole. UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email. They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to customers of FreeBSDMall. I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business in the forseeable futuer. Now, I can see that this becomes a grey area. FreeBSDMall is now part of Windriver, and I'm a FreeBSDMall customer, therefore, a Windriver customer. But, it's like Chrysler advertising industrial electric motors to me because I own a Chrysler car. Not the same business at all. Even beyond the fact that I'm easily pissed off (and I am, and I'm aware of it) it's simply bad business what they've done here. > Just because you get email sent to a list of people that you didn't > opt to be on doesn't mean you got spammed. Even if it's business > mail. Sure, it's a form letter. But it was sent to an existing > customer - didn't it have your proper name on it, not just an email > address? The reply address works. It went direct from a machine owned > by Wind River - a bsdi machine - to my mail hub. It's target at people > who are - or were - interested in FreeBSD. None of the things that > characterize spam are there, except that you didn't ask for it, and > it's from a business. Hiding the email address and originating server are not requirements of spam, they're symptoms of it. An email doesn't have to be forged in three different ways to be qualified as spam. > It's the same kind of thing as an uncle of mine who added me to his > alias to forward jokes the first time he's seen them - never mind I > saw most of them when they were posted to rec.humor.funny in the > '80s. Since I like him, I tend to just delete them. For businesses - > and almost everyone who does business on the web does this kind of > thing - I add a filter to my .qmail file so they get bounces. For > spam, I complain about it. Always. That's my point. I think I should complain about this. However, I don't know the details of the relationship between Windriver and the FreeBSD project. Considering how much I depend on FreeBSD (I *really* depend on FreeBSD) I would prefer to complain in a way that improves that relationship. > > Secondly, the return address is "FreeBSDCustomerRelations@windriver.com" > > which seems a little odd to me. Since when is Windriver in charge of > > FreeBSD Customer Relations? Technically, are they anything other than > > another supporter of the project? > > I think that technically, you've got it. On the other hand, they now > sell - well, they own a company that sells - a product that's called > FreeBSD. Having a maildrop for dealing with customers of that product > isn't unreasonable. It's sort of like if Corel had a > linuxcustomerrelations@corel.com, for dealing with the linux > distribution they sell and/or give away. I suppose. I'll concede that I badly over-reacted on that point. > > The email then goes on to say "Wind River picked up two software product > > lines from BSDi: the proprietary BSD/OS and the open-source FreeBSD." > > While the email later explains that Windriver does not (and can not) > > _own_ FreeBSD, the intial sentence seems rather ominous. > > There statement is true. Walnut Creek initiated a software product > line around FreeBSD: subscriptions, 4-disk releases, the complete > package, and the desktop package. That's all software, and it > certainly looks like a product line to me. BSDi acquired that product > line with Walnut Creek, and Wind River got it with BSDi. They they should have said "Wind River has acquired the BSD/OS operating system, as well as the distribution channels for the open-source OS, FreeBSD." Small point, maybe, but it's definately more accurate. > > The fact that they've attached the rest as a "rider" is what I'm > > objecting to, I suppose. > > That's no worse than Walnut Creek - and then BSDi - throwing catalogs > in with every thing I order from them. I even wind up paying shipping > with all of it. It sure beats what happened with 4.2, when some > unknown percentage of people didn't get theirs, and didn't get any > notification unless they called to ask about it. No, it's worse for the same reason that email spam is worse than snail-mail spam. I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion of a few promotional materials. > > Maybe I'm over-reacting a lot with regard to this subject, but it sure > > looks like Windriver has compromised FreeBSDMall's contact information > > to spam me, and hidden a brief FreeBSDMall message inside the spam to > > make it seem legitimate. > > I think you're over-reacting. From the evidence I have, FreeBSDMall is > now owned by Wind River. Since they own the contact list, they can't > really compromise it. This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a problem. > This company that was distributing FreeBSD > distributions is under new management. That generally means new > practices, some of which you may not like. Yes, and here we are. > If that's the case, try sending a polite request in reply to the mail > asking that they take you off whatever list they're using. If they > refuse, then it's time to get upset. Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read "See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and I'll block your mail servers." Hmmm ... more thinking to do on this topic, I suppose. -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 17:39: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E17537B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1161"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K52WXX9L70001VQL@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:38:56 EST Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:48:41 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? To: Bill Moran , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B33E769.A68AE1B8@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If it's the same message I received then it is not spam. I was very worried about not having heard of my FreeBSD CDs and their email just informed me that they were in fact having problems with their databases and that they appreciate my patience. Let's givem time, they are having a bad moment with this merger and reacting negatively won't help. Pedro. Bill Moran wrote: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > [Moved from -questions to -chat.] > > Honored. > > > Bill Moran types: > > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). > > > > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their > > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the > > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that > > loophole. > > UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email. > They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to > customers of FreeBSDMall. > I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part > of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business > in the forseeable futuer. > Now, I can see that this becomes a grey area. FreeBSDMall is now part of > Windriver, and I'm a FreeBSDMall customer, therefore, a Windriver > customer. But, it's like Chrysler advertising industrial electric motors > to me because I own a Chrysler car. Not the same business at all. > Even beyond the fact that I'm easily pissed off (and I am, and I'm aware > of it) it's simply bad business what they've done here. > > > Just because you get email sent to a list of people that you didn't > > opt to be on doesn't mean you got spammed. Even if it's business > > mail. Sure, it's a form letter. But it was sent to an existing > > customer - didn't it have your proper name on it, not just an email > > address? The reply address works. It went direct from a machine owned > > by Wind River - a bsdi machine - to my mail hub. It's target at people > > who are - or were - interested in FreeBSD. None of the things that > > characterize spam are there, except that you didn't ask for it, and > > it's from a business. > > Hiding the email address and originating server are not requirements of > spam, they're symptoms of it. An email doesn't have to be forged in > three different ways to be qualified as spam. > > > It's the same kind of thing as an uncle of mine who added me to his > > alias to forward jokes the first time he's seen them - never mind I > > saw most of them when they were posted to rec.humor.funny in the > > '80s. Since I like him, I tend to just delete them. For businesses - > > and almost everyone who does business on the web does this kind of > > thing - I add a filter to my .qmail file so they get bounces. For > > spam, I complain about it. Always. > > That's my point. I think I should complain about this. However, I don't > know the details of the relationship between Windriver and the FreeBSD > project. Considering how much I depend on FreeBSD (I *really* depend on > FreeBSD) I would prefer to complain in a way that improves that > relationship. > > > > Secondly, the return address is "FreeBSDCustomerRelations@windriver.com" > > > which seems a little odd to me. Since when is Windriver in charge of > > > FreeBSD Customer Relations? Technically, are they anything other than > > > another supporter of the project? > > > > I think that technically, you've got it. On the other hand, they now > > sell - well, they own a company that sells - a product that's called > > FreeBSD. Having a maildrop for dealing with customers of that product > > isn't unreasonable. It's sort of like if Corel had a > > linuxcustomerrelations@corel.com, for dealing with the linux > > distribution they sell and/or give away. > > I suppose. I'll concede that I badly over-reacted on that point. > > > > The email then goes on to say "Wind River picked up two software product > > > lines from BSDi: the proprietary BSD/OS and the open-source FreeBSD." > > > While the email later explains that Windriver does not (and can not) > > > _own_ FreeBSD, the intial sentence seems rather ominous. > > > > There statement is true. Walnut Creek initiated a software product > > line around FreeBSD: subscriptions, 4-disk releases, the complete > > package, and the desktop package. That's all software, and it > > certainly looks like a product line to me. BSDi acquired that product > > line with Walnut Creek, and Wind River got it with BSDi. > > They they should have said "Wind River has acquired the BSD/OS operating > system, as well as the distribution channels for the open-source OS, > FreeBSD." Small point, maybe, but it's definately more accurate. > > > > The fact that they've attached the rest as a "rider" is what I'm > > > objecting to, I suppose. > > > > That's no worse than Walnut Creek - and then BSDi - throwing catalogs > > in with every thing I order from them. I even wind up paying shipping > > with all of it. It sure beats what happened with 4.2, when some > > unknown percentage of people didn't get theirs, and didn't get any > > notification unless they called to ask about it. > > No, it's worse for the same reason that email spam is worse than > snail-mail spam. > I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion > of a few promotional materials. > > > > Maybe I'm over-reacting a lot with regard to this subject, but it sure > > > looks like Windriver has compromised FreeBSDMall's contact information > > > to spam me, and hidden a brief FreeBSDMall message inside the spam to > > > make it seem legitimate. > > > > I think you're over-reacting. From the evidence I have, FreeBSDMall is > > now owned by Wind River. Since they own the contact list, they can't > > really compromise it. > > This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com > under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my > information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a > different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to > other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall > strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now > they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a > problem. > > > This company that was distributing FreeBSD > > distributions is under new management. That generally means new > > practices, some of which you may not like. > > Yes, and here we are. > > > If that's the case, try sending a polite request in reply to the mail > > asking that they take you off whatever list they're using. If they > > refuse, then it's time to get upset. > > Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other > people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read > "See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and > I'll block your mail servers." > > Hmmm ... more thinking to do on this topic, I suppose. > > -- > If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, > then what can I get for two hands in the bush? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 17:50:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6104437B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 15501 invoked by uid 100); 23 Jun 2001 00:50:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15155.59329.751227.991311@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:50:09 -0500 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? In-Reply-To: <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > [Moved from -questions to -chat.] > Honored. Thank you. > > Bill Moran types: > > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). > > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their > > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the > > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that > > loophole. > UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email. It's not clearly unsolicited - that "pre-existing customer" thing, you know. Nor is it clearly bulk, as it's missing all the signatures for being bulk mail. It looks to me like some poor slob was handed a list, and ran a shell script on the bsdi box to send it out setting who it's from. > They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to > customers of FreeBSDMall. Actually, sending it to customers of FreeBSDMall instead of customers of Wind River makes a *lot* more sense. Wind River's customers aren't going to see a lot of things change; FreeBSDMall's customers may. > I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part > of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business > in the forseeable futuer. I looked it over, and I can't see *any* attempt to sell you those things. In fact, I can't see any attempt to sell you anything at all. Nor do I see an attempt to get you to visit a web site or do anything else that would generate revenue for WindRiver. That's another element of the signature for spam that's missing, but you apparently caught that and tagged it as UBE instead of UCE. Once they've decided to send email about the takeover to the list - wherever the list came from - I think it's entirely appropriate for Wind River to tell customers of a company they just acquired a little bit about themselves. > Now, I can see that this becomes a grey area. FreeBSDMall is now part of > Windriver, and I'm a FreeBSDMall customer, therefore, a Windriver > customer. But, it's like Chrysler advertising industrial electric motors > to me because I own a Chrysler car. Not the same business at all. BSDi/Walnut Creek used to send me catalogs of Windows and Linux software, and I have about as much use for that as you do for Chryslers electric motors. Nuts - those things included prices, descriptions, and information on ordering, which makes them a *lot* more offensive than one paragraph saying what Wind River does. > > > The fact that they've attached the rest as a "rider" is what I'm > > > objecting to, I suppose. > > That's no worse than Walnut Creek - and then BSDi - throwing catalogs > > in with every thing I order from them. I even wind up paying shipping > > with all of it. It sure beats what happened with 4.2, when some > > unknown percentage of people didn't get theirs, and didn't get any > > notification unless they called to ask about it. > No, it's worse for the same reason that email spam is worse than > snail-mail spam. I always consider that junk email (aka spam) worse than junk snail-mail because I pay the delivery costs for junk email instead of the advertiser. This strange cost structure results in all kinds of associated problems, but most of them would pretty clearly go away if the cost structure were fixed. If you consider it worse for a different reason, please elucidate. > I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion > of a few promotional materials. Not clear - but I have a line item for shipping, so it's still free for the advertiser, meaning it shares the cost structure that makes spam such a magnet for pump-n-dump scam artists and similar vermin. > This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com > under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my > information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a > different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to > other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall > strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now > they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a > problem. I don't recall ever seeing any kind of privacy policy for email addresses from BSDi. It may be there, and if Wind River violated it, they are out of line. They should have printed their press release and thrown it in with the subscriptions to get me to pay for the shipping. > Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other > people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read > "See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and > I'll block your mail servers." I wouldn't do it that way. I would warn them I'd treat it as spam, and let them worry about exactly what that means. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 17:52:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE61C37B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8A1496ACBC; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:22:29 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:22:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Meyer Cc: j mckitrick , Michael Lucas , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "You are not expected to understand this" (wase: most complex code in BSD?) Message-ID: <20010623102229.I25309@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010622062238.A45123@blackhelicopters.org> <20010622114548.A51977@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15155.13183.377957.392221@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 07:01:03AM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 22 June 2001 at 7:01:03 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > j mckitrick types: >> On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:22:38AM -0400, Michael Lucas wrote: >>> When I took the two-day FreeBSD Internals course McKusick taught, he >>> brought up the context-switching code. >>> >>> The original UNIX authors were not much on comments. When they put a >>> comment, it was to explain something really, really, *really* difficult. >>> >>> Apparently there was a seven-word comment in the context switching >>> code that gave him a bit of a start: "You are not expected to >>> understand this." Don't know if it's still there, but it's still >>> probably pretty scary. >> >> Is this supposed to be in C or asm? I thought context switches >> were among the only asm/machine dependent code. > > For the v6 kernel, this is in C code. I never went looking for it in > later code, so I don't know when it vanished. It went away again in the Seventh Edition. > The comment in question is a couple of paragraphs, followed by that > seven-word note. If I remember correctly - my copy of Lyons being in > storage - the code was the context-switching code, and what was > being explained was the mechanism that was used to start the first > process, which involved very machine-dependent work so that that > code would do the job. Well, in fact it was any new process. Here's the entire function (so shoot me) from /usr/sys/ken/slp.c. In those days, the system was stored in the directories ken and dmr, indicating who worked on what. /* * This routine is called to reschedule the CPU. * if the calling process is not in RUN state, * arrangements for it to restart must have * been made elsewhere, usually by calling via sleep. */ swtch() { static struct proc *p; register i, n; register struct proc *rp; if(p == NULL) p = &proc[0]; /* * Remember stack of caller */ savu(u.u_rsav); /* * Switch to scheduler's stack */ retu(proc[0].p_addr); loop: runrun = 0; rp = p; p = NULL; n = 128; /* * Search for highest-priority runnable process */ i = NPROC; do { rp++; if(rp >= &proc[NPROC]) rp = &proc[0]; if(rp->p_stat==SRUN && (rp->p_flag&SLOAD)!=0) { if(rp->p_pri < n) { p = rp; n = rp->p_pri; } } } while(--i); /* * If no process is runnable, idle. */ if(p == NULL) { p = rp; idle(); goto loop; } rp = p; curpri = n; /* * Switch to stack of the new process and set up * his segmentation registers. */ retu(rp->p_addr); sureg(); /* * If the new process paused because it was * swapped out, set the stack level to the last call * to savu(u_ssav). This means that the return * which is executed immediately after the call to aretu * actually returns from the last routine which did * the savu. * * You are not expected to understand this. */ if(rp->p_flag&SSWAP) { rp->p_flag =& ~SSWAP; aretu(u.u_ssav); } /* * The value returned here has many subtle implications. * See the newproc comments. */ return(1); } More interesting is dmr's comment some years later: On 2 Apr 92 09:34:24 GMT, dmr@alice.att.com (Dennis Ritchie) wrote: > > People might be interested in more of the context > of the famous `you are not expected to understand this' comment. > (Tim Smith is wrong on the details.) It was made somewhat in > the spirit of `this won't be on the exam,' not as a contemptuous > challenge. Nevertheless, people did find it necessary > to understand it, and the comment was too flippant. > > And of course, the real joke was that we did not understand > what what was really happening either: the setu/retu mechanism > of pre-Seventh Edition Unix was basically unworkable, > because it depended inextricably on subroutine calling > conventions of the PDP-11 implementation, and more fundamentally > because it was not the right way to do things. Specifically, > as the comment says, `savu' arranges that a routine > that subsequently calls `retu' jumps out not to > a location near the `savu' (as with setjmp/longjmp), > but to the routine that called the routine with the `savu.' > > Here is the surrounding code, direct from Sixth Edition Unix, > file slp.c, dated Jul 18, 1975. > > You still aren't expected to understand it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 18:12:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB91837B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason.anderson@windriver.com) Received: from peale.wrs.com (peale [147.11.36.41]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA18511; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010622174719.032350c0@mail.wrs.com> X-Sender: jasona@mail.wrs.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:11:11 -0700 To: Bill Moran From: "Jason S. Anderson" Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Bill (et al), I just thought I would comment briefly on some of your concerns, given that I work with Pauline here at Wind River and know some of the details of the intention of the message you received. As we know from previous discussions, part of the BSDi acquisition included FreeBSDMall including its existing customer base and subscriptions which WRS has a responsibility to service and support (both now and long-term). We've been working hard to integrate the two companies and to transition shipping/order fulfillment functions, but as with most integrations this is not a straightforward affair. Over the past couple of weeks we've received several phone calls from customers looking for status information about their orders. We knew there was a need to communicate with the FreeBSDMall customers, but we didn't want to do it in a way that would be interpreted as spamming or otherwise abusing the freebsd-* mailing lists...hence the FreeBSDMall customer list. Please believe me when I say that no offense or spamming was intended; we simply felt a need to let our customers know that there were was this acquisition change at FreeBSDMall which may have caused a temporary disruption to some shipments. It shouldn't be construed as the beginning of a trend, or an effort to distribute advertising. Feel free to use the ordertracking@windriver.com address if you wish to be removed from the customer list; I'm sure the support team would be happy to assist. Also, there are many people at Wind (such as myself) who are trying to keep up with the mailing lists to better understand how we can work together, so you can also use these forums if there are things of broader interest. I'm happy to answer other questions as well. Best regards, -Jason At 08:23 PM 6/22/01 -0400, Bill Moran wrote: >Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > [Moved from -questions to -chat.] > >Honored. > > > Bill Moran types: > > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). > > > > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their > > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the > > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that > > loophole. > >UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email. >They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to >customers of FreeBSDMall. >I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part >of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business >in the forseeable futuer. >Now, I can see that this becomes a grey area. FreeBSDMall is now part of >Windriver, and I'm a FreeBSDMall customer, therefore, a Windriver >customer. But, it's like Chrysler advertising industrial electric motors >to me because I own a Chrysler car. Not the same business at all. >Even beyond the fact that I'm easily pissed off (and I am, and I'm aware >of it) it's simply bad business what they've done here. > > > Just because you get email sent to a list of people that you didn't > > opt to be on doesn't mean you got spammed. Even if it's business > > mail. Sure, it's a form letter. But it was sent to an existing > > customer - didn't it have your proper name on it, not just an email > > address? The reply address works. It went direct from a machine owned > > by Wind River - a bsdi machine - to my mail hub. It's target at people > > who are - or were - interested in FreeBSD. None of the things that > > characterize spam are there, except that you didn't ask for it, and > > it's from a business. > >Hiding the email address and originating server are not requirements of >spam, they're symptoms of it. An email doesn't have to be forged in >three different ways to be qualified as spam. > > > It's the same kind of thing as an uncle of mine who added me to his > > alias to forward jokes the first time he's seen them - never mind I > > saw most of them when they were posted to rec.humor.funny in the > > '80s. Since I like him, I tend to just delete them. For businesses - > > and almost everyone who does business on the web does this kind of > > thing - I add a filter to my .qmail file so they get bounces. For > > spam, I complain about it. Always. > >That's my point. I think I should complain about this. However, I don't >know the details of the relationship between Windriver and the FreeBSD >project. Considering how much I depend on FreeBSD (I *really* depend on >FreeBSD) I would prefer to complain in a way that improves that >relationship. > > > > Secondly, the return address is "FreeBSDCustomerRelations@windriver.com" > > > which seems a little odd to me. Since when is Windriver in charge of > > > FreeBSD Customer Relations? Technically, are they anything other than > > > another supporter of the project? > > > > I think that technically, you've got it. On the other hand, they now > > sell - well, they own a company that sells - a product that's called > > FreeBSD. Having a maildrop for dealing with customers of that product > > isn't unreasonable. It's sort of like if Corel had a > > linuxcustomerrelations@corel.com, for dealing with the linux > > distribution they sell and/or give away. > >I suppose. I'll concede that I badly over-reacted on that point. > > > > The email then goes on to say "Wind River picked up two software product > > > lines from BSDi: the proprietary BSD/OS and the open-source FreeBSD." > > > While the email later explains that Windriver does not (and can not) > > > _own_ FreeBSD, the intial sentence seems rather ominous. > > > > There statement is true. Walnut Creek initiated a software product > > line around FreeBSD: subscriptions, 4-disk releases, the complete > > package, and the desktop package. That's all software, and it > > certainly looks like a product line to me. BSDi acquired that product > > line with Walnut Creek, and Wind River got it with BSDi. > >They they should have said "Wind River has acquired the BSD/OS operating >system, as well as the distribution channels for the open-source OS, >FreeBSD." Small point, maybe, but it's definately more accurate. > > > > The fact that they've attached the rest as a "rider" is what I'm > > > objecting to, I suppose. > > > > That's no worse than Walnut Creek - and then BSDi - throwing catalogs > > in with every thing I order from them. I even wind up paying shipping > > with all of it. It sure beats what happened with 4.2, when some > > unknown percentage of people didn't get theirs, and didn't get any > > notification unless they called to ask about it. > >No, it's worse for the same reason that email spam is worse than >snail-mail spam. >I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion >of a few promotional materials. > > > > Maybe I'm over-reacting a lot with regard to this subject, but it sure > > > looks like Windriver has compromised FreeBSDMall's contact information > > > to spam me, and hidden a brief FreeBSDMall message inside the spam to > > > make it seem legitimate. > > > > I think you're over-reacting. From the evidence I have, FreeBSDMall is > > now owned by Wind River. Since they own the contact list, they can't > > really compromise it. > >This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com >under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my >information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a >different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to >other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall >strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now >they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a >problem. > > > This company that was distributing FreeBSD > > distributions is under new management. That generally means new > > practices, some of which you may not like. > >Yes, and here we are. > > > If that's the case, try sending a polite request in reply to the mail > > asking that they take you off whatever list they're using. If they > > refuse, then it's time to get upset. > >Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other >people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read >"See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and >I'll block your mail servers." > >Hmmm ... more thinking to do on this topic, I suppose. > >-- >If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, >then what can I get for two hands in the bush? > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson email: jason.anderson@windriver.com Manager, Platforms Operations Programs ph: 510-749-2202 Manager, FreeBSD Engineering fax: 510-749-2010 Wind River cell: 510-708-3588 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 18:45:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13606.mail.yahoo.com (web13606.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17A3437B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010623014520.87900.qmail@web13606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13606.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:45:20 PDT Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:45:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:45 AM -0700 6/22/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > I am sure you'll love to flame Mr Raskin now. Just be authorative. > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2778897,00.html > > No, not at all. I have the greatest respect for both Jef Raskin > and Jakob Nielsen. Everything I've seen so far about Aqua leads me > to believe that there is a lot more work that needs to be done on it, How many more years? I trust only you on this. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 19:35:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E0237B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 19:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5N2ZaY23211; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:35:37 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010623014520.87900.qmail@web13606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010623014520.87900.qmail@web13606.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:34:48 +0200 To: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:45 PM -0700 6/22/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: >> No, not at all. I have the greatest respect for both Jef Raskin >> and Jakob Nielsen. Everything I've seen so far about Aqua leads me >> to believe that there is a lot more work that needs to be done on it, > > How many more years? Dunno. Knowing the way Jobs is, it may never happen. When enough features have been implemented to make it worth my while to take a serious look at it (I already have the box and CD, I just need to install it and then download the updates), then we'll see what changes may have been made. And if it's not suitable, we'll have to see what changes they make in the future, and whether or not it can ever be good enough for me to use. We'll just have to wait and see. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 20:40: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FBE37B408 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA76296; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:39:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Anton Berezin Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2001 05:39:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anton Berezin writes: > perl -pe 's,.,,sg if $_{+lc}++' out > > Like this, you mean? ;-) This is perfectly understandable. It copies its input less any duplicate lines (even if they don't immediately follow the first occurrence - uniq(1) can't do this). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21: 6:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7828537B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:06:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.225.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.225]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06192; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B3415A3.5665B746@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:05:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anton Berezin Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <200106222147.OAA28698@usr06.primenet.com> <20010623001612.C53155@heechee.tobez.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anton Berezin wrote: > I disagree with this opinion. Like any other language, Perl has a > number of idiomatic ways of doing things. Such idioms are immediately > recognized (and used) by any programmer who knows the language. The > problem with Perl is that the sheer number of these idioms is larger > than in the majority of other languages. This leads to a fact, that > Perl itself is a big language, and therefore it is difficult to learn > Perl well. This also means that people who do not know Perl enough, > or at all, get an impression that Perl is a mess, a language without > any style, a write-only language. I've written my share of well-commented perl code, and maintained other perl code. Any new code uses the "idioms" in several of the books -- not the ones Larry Wall wrote to demonstrate the zillion ways you can do something. Old code is always written in the idiom of the program being maintained, if it can be discerned at all. Most perl programs I have seen, even trivial ones, are riddled with bugs. This includes the ETRN script that ships with sendmail, which is probably one of the most heavily used scripts I'm aware of (it fails to time out certain operations). The major problem is that it's considered easy to write programs in perl -- and people who take the easy way out are the type of people who tend to think that it's easier to not comment their code. The perl language is useful for little scripts that do not need to be maintained -- glue code for administrative tasks, etc. -- but for larger projects, maintainability becomes the primary requirement. I don't disagree that perl _can_ be written to be easily maintainable, but it often isn't written in such a way to facilitate maintenance by inexpensive people. An expert in perl could probably read any perl code, no problem; but that is a very steep barrier for a definition of "enough". I personally have no problem understanding or doing anything in perl, thanks in part to tutelage by people like Doug Ambrisko who are true experts, but I dislike it: it offends my aesthetic sensibilities to think that I might be writing code that is opaque to others. The only fix for this would be to pick a reference work, and then give citations for the page numbers where the "idiom" being used id documented. At least that way, you could be sure that someone with the same reference work could read the code via cross-reference. The comments are never enough -- telling them what you are doing is not the same as them being able to then understand the statement following the comment, because the language is, as you admit, very large: this translates to "no common basis for understanding the code". That's bad. > > The lack of "one true way" to do everything means that perl > > is the programming language equivalent of "Standards are > > wonderful, because there are so many to choose from". > > As with any other language, it is good to use the right tool > (the right language construct) for the job. There are just > more tools available. If I look in somone elses carefuly assembled collection of tools in their garage (i.e. their perl code), it would be nice if when they used a hammer, the thing looked like a hammer to everyone else who knew how to use tools. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21:17:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F2037B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: from iowna.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5N4EMs09786; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B34183B.1BB79882@iowna.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:16:59 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <3B33E769.A68AE1B8@pitt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > If it's the same message I received then it is not spam. I was very > worried about not having heard of my FreeBSD CDs and their email just > informed me that they were in fact having problems with their > databases and that they appreciate my patience. > > Let's givem time, they are having a bad moment with this merger and > reacting negatively won't help. Well ... like I said, that's why I posted here to get feedback first. I'm starting to think that I'm simply wound up a bit tight recently, and pretty much everything is setting me off. Regardless, I'll voice my opinion to Wind River and forget about it. They can work on it if they want. My biggest complaint at this point is that letter was unprofessional. -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21:31:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5855437B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@kleenex.apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.148.235 Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f5N4V5510130 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:30:59 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis Reply-To: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent Message-ID: <387348.993256255@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: References: <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Friday, June 22, 2001 9:08 PM +0200 Brad Knowles wrote: > > Indeed, I see absolutely nothing in common between what I've > heard from you and what I've seen from the likes of Jef Raskin. He is starting to seem like some alternate Don Kool persona. Is Don suffering from MPD? Mac OS X is kind of muddled in the UI department. They'd have been better off adding a bit of glitz to OPENSTEP and calling it a day. I'll reserve final judgement for a while. Things can change. In the meantime, I still have a unix machine that I can run MS Office on. The latest update even made OS X fairly quick. I decided not to go for a CPU upgrade after all. :-) I have an UltraSPARC running Solaris 8, a couple of Linux boxen, and a Win 2K box. They're feeling lonely these days as I play with my Mac. I just enjoy OS X. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21:31:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE66137B406 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:31:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f5N4Veu96241; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:31:40 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Bill Moran Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? Message-ID: <20010622213140.A95979@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <3B33E769.A68AE1B8@pitt.edu> <3B34183B.1BB79882@iowna.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B34183B.1BB79882@iowna.com>; from wmoran@iowna.com on Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 12:16:59AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 12:16:59AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > > If it's the same message I received then it is not spam. I was very > > worried about not having heard of my FreeBSD CDs and their email just > > informed me that they were in fact having problems with their > > databases and that they appreciate my patience. > > > > Let's givem time, they are having a bad moment with this merger and > > reacting negatively won't help. > > Well ... like I said, that's why I posted here to get feedback first. > I'm starting to think that I'm simply wound up a bit tight recently, and > pretty much everything is setting me off. > Regardless, I'll voice my opinion to Wind River and forget about it. > They can work on it if they want. My biggest complaint at this point is > that letter was unprofessional. I am glad they sent it out. Lets face it, Wind River is a for profit business. They have gotten us in the deal with BSDi and I'm sure they don't quite know what to make of us. The note shows they _ARE_ trying to make this work. I agree we should give them time to sort this out. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21:35:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B43A37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.225.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.225]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23797; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B341C5C.5D17EBAB@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:34:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Anton Berezin , Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Anton Berezin writes: > > perl -pe 's,.,,sg if $_{+lc}++' out > > > > Like this, you mean? ;-) > > This is perfectly understandable. It copies its input less any > duplicate lines (even if they don't immediately follow the first > occurrence - uniq(1) can't do this). Intentionally and naievely reading this as a 'vi', 'ed', 'sed', or 'awk' user, I'd say it copies its input to its output, replacing periods with nothing for the entirety of each input line... The problem is that you can't be certain everyone is using the same Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring(tm) that you happen to be using. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21:40:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BDC237B407 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.225.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.225]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10864; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B341DC1.54944B69@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:40:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Anton Berezin , Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Perl joke I heard today... References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> <3B341C5C.5D17EBAB@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A guy walks into his coworker's office. The screen is covered with what looks like a still shot of a copy of "The Matrix" screen saver. He looks at it a minute, and realizes that the coworker is reading it, so it can't be a screen saver. He thinks about it a second, and then asks "Do you always ready your email fully encrypted with PGP like that? Decoding PGP in you head like that is _really_ impressive!". "No," says the coworker, "that's just a Perl script I'm working on". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 21:53:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4AD37B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: from iowna.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5N4oZs18937; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B3420B8.31A135A8@iowna.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:53:12 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason S. Anderson" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <5.0.2.1.2.20010622174719.032350c0@mail.wrs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason S. Anderson" wrote: > > Hi Bill (et al), > I just thought I would comment briefly on some of your concerns, given > that I work with Pauline here at Wind River and know some of the details of > the intention of the message you received. As we know from previous > discussions, part of the BSDi acquisition included FreeBSDMall including > its existing customer base and subscriptions which WRS has a responsibility > to service and support (both now and long-term). We've been working hard to > integrate the two companies and to transition shipping/order fulfillment > functions, but as with most integrations this is not a straightforward affair. I appreciate the effort that WRS is making to continue the service that BSDI and Walnut Creek had provided. I encourage that effort. I'm guessing that the integration resulted in "You must now change your systems to match ours" Which (regardless of how moronic it is) is standard practice in the modern business world. One day, perhaps people will understand that if you don't change things that work, they keep working. Regardless, I have faith that things will return to normal once WRS finishes integrating. > Over the past couple of weeks we've received several phone calls from > customers looking for status information about their orders. We knew there > was a need to communicate with the FreeBSDMall customers, but we didn't > want to do it in a way that would be interpreted as spamming or otherwise > abusing the freebsd-* mailing lists...hence the FreeBSDMall customer list. Hmmm... perhaps a note on the home page of the FreeBSDMall site would have been better. There was just too much fluff in that letter. Personally I feel it should have said: "We at Wind River are comitted to continuing to serve customers through FreeBSDMall. We have recently been experiencing some difficulties during the transition period. For more information see http://x.x.x. If you have an inquiry or a problem with a recent order through FreeBSDMall, please contact us via x method and we'll work quickly to straighten things out." Instead, it read like junk mail. Again, perhaps I'm just wound too tight (that's highly possible). > Please believe me when I say that no offense or spamming was intended; > we simply felt a need to let our customers know that there were was this > acquisition change at FreeBSDMall which may have caused a temporary > disruption to some shipments. It shouldn't be construed as the beginning of > a trend, or an effort to distribute advertising. Regardless of "intent" I still consider the email "spam". The most devious spammers out there will place at the end of their mails "This is not spam, if you're not interested, just delete it, we apoligize for any inconvenience." However, the email wasn't spam because it was sent out unsolicited. It was 75% spam because whoever wrote it didn't know how to just get to the point and stuffed a lot of non-relevent material in the email. As someone else has said, simply starting off the message with paragraph 4 (instead of 3 paragraphs of nonessential fluff before getting to the point) would have improved the message greatly. This (again) probably has a lot to do with me being wound too tight. However, I think it was a poorly worded letter and bad PR for WRS and FreeBSDMall. > Feel free to use the ordertracking@windriver.com address if you wish to > be removed from the customer list; I'm sure the support team would be happy > to assist. Also, there are many people at Wind (such as myself) who are > trying to keep up with the mailing lists to better understand how we can > work together, so you can also use these forums if there are things of > broader interest. I'm happy to answer other questions as well. I appreciate your response, and your support. This is probably another example of why I'm unable to work for large companies - but that's my issue, so you probably shouldn't worry too much. However, I still feel that some of my complaints are valid. Believe it or not, I'm commenting on this because I feel it can be done better, not to attack. Apparently, however, most people weren't bothered by it, so you probably shouldn't worry. -Bill -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 22: 4:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F3637B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) X-IP-Test: 207.54.148.235 Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f5N548513723 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:04:02 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perl joke I heard today... Message-ID: <506347.993258238@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: <3B341DC1.54944B69@mindspring.com> References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr0 .primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.6980 5.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> <3B341C5C.5D17EBAB@mindspring.com> <3B341DC1.54944B69@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Friday, June 22, 2001 9:40 PM -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > "No," says the coworker, "that's just a Perl script I'm > working on". One of my cow-orkers writes beautiful perl code. It's clean and easy to follow. Another guy writes utter dreck. I don't think even he knows what some of it does when he goes back to modify it. I've heard that Ada encourages good coding practices, but I don't know much about it. I kind of like perl. Maybe my mind just works in strange ways that perl suits. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 22:24:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DE037B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@earthlink.net) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.247.142.199.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.142.199]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23206; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5N5ORd02438; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:24:27 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010622222427.C2061@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010622134840.R7647@lpt.ens.fr> <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622080101.O10068-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:01:48AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:01:48AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Where does mutt places it's files? > Doesn't seem to be ~/Mail even though it just created that dir. > Man page didn't help. I think the confusion here may be that mutt saves files in the pwd unless you tell it otherwise. Prepend a '=' to the name for it to go to the mail directory. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 22:28:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C1A37B408 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: from iowna.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5N5PGs24267; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B3428D8.6FD65A0C@iowna.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:27:52 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <15155.59329.751227.991311@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Bill Moran types: > > > > First off, the message technically falls into the UBE category, since I > > > > never opted-in to receive general messages from Windriver, or > > > > FreeBSDMall (which is what the message is about). > > > UBE? Not UCE? In any case, it looks like they were sending it to their > > > customers: people they have a previous relationship with. Most of the > > > anti-direct-marketing laws I'm familiar with provide that > > > loophole. > > UBE, meaning Unsolicited Bulk Email. > > It's not clearly unsolicited - that "pre-existing customer" thing, you > know. Nor is it clearly bulk, as it's missing all the signatures for > being bulk mail. It looks to me like some poor slob was handed a list, > and ran a shell script on the bsdi box to send it out setting who it's > from. It _is_ clearly unsolicited because I never gave my email addy for any purpose other than confirmation of an order. Anything other than an order confirmation is then unsolicited. It _is_ clearly bulk because I haven't ordered anything from FreeBSDMall since January, thus they must have sent this mail out to all their customers (not just the ones with outstanding orders that may have been delayed) I agree with the poor slob part ;) > > They're not sending it to their customers. They're sending it to > > customers of FreeBSDMall. > > Actually, sending it to customers of FreeBSDMall instead of customers > of Wind River makes a *lot* more sense. Wind River's customers aren't > going to see a lot of things change; FreeBSDMall's customers may. True. > > I have no intereste in the embedded systems they provide. It isn't part > > of the business I do, and I don't see it becomming part of that business > > in the forseeable futuer. > > I looked it over, and I can't see *any* attempt to sell you those > things. In fact, I can't see any attempt to sell you anything at > all. Nor do I see an attempt to get you to visit a web site or do > anything else that would generate revenue for WindRiver. True, and I admit that I over-reacted in that area. > Once they've decided to send email about the takeover to the list - > wherever the list came from - I think it's entirely appropriate for > Wind River to tell customers of a company they just acquired a little > bit about themselves. Difference of opinion. I can't logically argue against this, I just didn't like it ;) Obviously, companies MUST advertise. This is why I'm so unsuccessful (because I can't advertise my way out of a paper bag) The method of advertising varies greatly, and I have a lot of problems with a GREAT DEAL of contemporary advertising. Perhaps I'm wound too tight. > BSDi/Walnut Creek used to send me catalogs of Windows and Linux > software, and I have about as much use for that as you do for > Chryslers electric motors. Nuts - those things included prices, > descriptions, and information on ordering, which makes them a *lot* > more offensive than one paragraph saying what Wind River does. Offensive? Really? I wouldn't classify the email as "offensive". Offensive is when someone tries to sell me a "legalized version of pot". Offensive is when the spam says "Here is the information you requested" when I didn't request a damn thing (that's an insult to my intelligence-and a filthy lie). Offensive is when someone talks to me in a way that assumes I'm dishonest and therefore don't have any problem with them being dishonest as well. Those things are offensive. Advertising is just annoying when it is poorly targeted. And inconvenient when poorly targeted in mass quantities. > I always consider that junk email (aka spam) worse than junk > snail-mail because I pay the delivery costs for junk email instead of > the advertiser. This strange cost structure results in all kinds of > associated problems, but most of them would pretty clearly go away if > the cost structure were fixed. If you consider it worse for a > different reason, please elucidate. No, that's exactly the same reason I have. > > I seriously doubt if your shipping costs are modified by the inclusion > > of a few promotional materials. > > Not clear - but I have a line item for shipping, so it's still free > for the advertiser, meaning it shares the cost structure that makes > spam such a magnet for pump-n-dump scam artists and similar vermin. This was a stupid point for me to make, and you're absolutely right. > > This falls into the same category as "I gave my email to www.foo.com > > under a certain privacy agreement that stated they would keep my > > information private. foo.com was bought out by bar.com, who uses a > > different privacy agreement and has no problem selling their list to > > other advertisers." Basically, I gave my email addy to FreeBSDMall > > strictly for the purpose of being notified of my order status. Now > > they're using it to advertise other product lines. I still have a > > problem. > > I don't recall ever seeing any kind of privacy policy for email > addresses from BSDi. It may be there, and if Wind River violated it, > they are out of line. They should have printed their press release and > thrown it in with the subscriptions to get me to pay for the shipping. Here I'll stand my ground. You shouldn't have to have a g*d damned legalise document to establish what can and can not be done everywhere you go. Some things are just a matter of personal integrity. I provided my email address so my order could be confirmed. To use that addy for anything else is a violation of the trust provided when the web form said "please give us your email address so we can provide you with an order confirmation." There shouldn't have to be a fscking document I have to read containing 1000 words of legalise before I'll know exactly what they feel is OK to do with my email address. The page said it's for order confirmation, that's what it's for. I know that this isn't how the world at large operates. But that doesn't mean that the way the world at large operates is correct. > > Once again, I intend to, I just wanted to get a feel for what other > > people thought before I responded. With other spammers my emails read > > "See that this is stopped immediately. Another incident like this and > > I'll block your mail servers." > > I wouldn't do it that way. I would warn them I'd treat it as spam, and > let them worry about exactly what that means. I don't intend to take that stand. In fact, I've sent all the official complaints to Wind River that I'm going to, and it was posted to -chat as well so you can all see it. If you feel that anything I've said was out of line, feel free to criticize. Heaven knows I'm not perfect. -Bill -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 22 22:46: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBA037B401 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: from iowna.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5N5gfs26418; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B342CED.4ED682BB@iowna.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:45:17 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <3B33E769.A68AE1B8@pitt.edu> <3B34183B.1BB79882@iowna.com> <20010622213140.A95979@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 12:16:59AM -0400, Bill Moran wrote: > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > > > > If it's the same message I received then it is not spam. I was very > > > worried about not having heard of my FreeBSD CDs and their email just > > > informed me that they were in fact having problems with their > > > databases and that they appreciate my patience. > > > > > > Let's givem time, they are having a bad moment with this merger and > > > reacting negatively won't help. > > > > Well ... like I said, that's why I posted here to get feedback first. > > I'm starting to think that I'm simply wound up a bit tight recently, and > > pretty much everything is setting me off. > > Regardless, I'll voice my opinion to Wind River and forget about it. > > They can work on it if they want. My biggest complaint at this point is > > that letter was unprofessional. > > I am glad they sent it out. Lets face it, Wind River is a for profit > business. They have gotten us in the deal with BSDi and I'm sure they don't > quite know what to make of us. The note shows they _ARE_ trying to make this > work. I agree we should give them time to sort this out. I agree and disagree. I applaud WRS' efforts to make things work. I don't have one iota of a problem with them making $$$ off of FreeBSD if they want to. Even if I did, it's not my decision, the BSD license states the terms. If they want to maintain support for FreeBSD as a philanthropist thing, that's fine as well. And agian, it doesn't matter what I think on that point. I do object to this "sending me a personal email that reads like a press release". I have little patience with attempts to communicate without really communicating. The original intent of the messsage was to announce that WRS intends to continue running FreeBSDMall and to apologize for shipping problems. Why the fluff? Why the dossier of which high-level executives enjoy FreeBSD? Each time I reread the message it seems weirder than the first. On one hand, you have the silly fluff - making the message seem affected and diluting it's credibility. On the other hand, they actually give a phone # and extension to contact if I'm having problems. This is UNHEARD OF in the web-marketing industry and a fantastic show of comitment. I really feel that this was an honest attempt at addressing customer issues that was thwarted by a poorly-worded email and overzealous distribution. Why not just say what you mean? Who's idea was it to crowd a lot of fluff around the real message? It's taken me all day to finally realize what was being said here. -Bill -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 0:12: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FEB37B401 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:12:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01308 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010623010611.04786930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:11:37 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: newsyslog question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the past, I've used my own routines to rotate Web logs, but have decided to try doing it via the more standard newsyslog utility. Part of rotating Apache logs is to send a signal to the process to let it know that its log file must be reopened. SIGHUP works, and I believe that SIGUSR1 does as well but more gracefully. The man page for this utility specifies the format of a line in /etc/newsyslog.conf, but doesn't say whether signals (if you send them to the process to let it know that its logs have been pulled out from under it) must be specified numerically or can be specified by name. Will the following line work properly for an Apache Web server? /var/log/website-access_log 644 5 * $W6D0 Z /var/run/httpd.pid SIGUSR1 --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 1:56:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5102937B406 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 01:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@tobez.org) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CD975543D; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:56:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:56:05 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010623105605.A91952@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 05:39:52AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 05:39:52AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Anton Berezin writes: > > perl -pe 's,.,,sg if $_{+lc}++' out > > > > Like this, you mean? ;-) > > This is perfectly understandable. It copies its input less any > duplicate lines (even if they don't immediately follow the first > occurrence - uniq(1) can't do this). For the sake of rigor: ...ignoring case. %Anton. -- May the tuna salad be with you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 2:11:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBD537B406 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 02:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA77248; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:11:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Anton Berezin Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> <20010623105605.A91952@heechee.tobez.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2001 11:11:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010623105605.A91952@heechee.tobez.org> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anton Berezin writes: > ...ignoring case. Yeah. The only really ugly bit in there is the + in front of lc (to force Perl to interpret lc as a function call and not a bareword - without the +, it would just output the first line, then nothing) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 4:38:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C2737B401 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 04:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5NBcD651946 ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:38:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA72912 ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:39:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:39:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Anton Berezin , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010623133910.E71218@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , Anton Berezin , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:51:41PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly > > readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. fortune candidate? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 5:36:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A1937B408 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15DmeV-0008Rz-00; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:36:39 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5NCadu84670; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:36:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:36:38 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010623133638.A84446@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010622221453.B64495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200106222143.OAA28673@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200106222143.OAA28673@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:43:09PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:43:09PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: | > | The VFS code is trivial, if you just understand call-by-descriptor, | > | > could you explain what call-by-descriptor is? | Now you can stack an FS that doesn't know about fsfunc42 on top of | one that does, and have it still work fine when you make a system | call that depends on fsfunc42. | | Basically, this allows implementation class inheritance to be | implemented in C, instead of requiring C++. Great info, as usual. Thanks, Terry. I still have your explanation of what *really* caused BSD forking. ;-) This sounds pretty much to me like a vector table, or even thunking. How is it different? Also, if fsfunc49 (Joe Walsh reference ;-) exists but the fs doesn't know about it, how will it still work? Do you simply leave an empty stub that returns without doing anything, or do you direct it to a corresponding set of older calls that accomplish the same thing? | | This is also how the X widget sets work. Motif is the best | example, where you can have a scrollbar widget, and you can have | a feedback scrollbar widget, and then you can implement the | feedback scrollbar widget by wrapping the draw routines, and trapping | the value changed callbacks and change value routines, and let the | mouse motion-notify events go down to the underlying scrollbar | functions that handle such things, and not have to implement them | a second time for the feedback scrollbar widget. | | This is how we all used to do object-oriented programming. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 5:37:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD1D37B406 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 05:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15Dmf2-000JMK-00; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:37:12 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5NCbAu84695; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:37:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:37:10 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Anton Berezin , Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perl joke I heard today... Message-ID: <20010623133710.B84446@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200106222110.OAA28427@usr06.primenet.com> <20010622232942.A53155@heechee.tobez.org> <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <20010622234325.B53155@heechee.tobez.org> <3B341C5C.5D17EBAB@mindspring.com> <3B341DC1.54944B69@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B341DC1.54944B69@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:40:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good one... :-) Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 6: 4:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C6B37B406; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a075.otenet.gr [212.205.215.75]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5ND4Nx17600; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:04:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f5N6mw201352; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:48:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:48:57 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Michael Lucas , Nik Clayton , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Good Pine text based replacement? Message-ID: <20010623094857.A1308@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010622123838.P7647@lpt.ens.fr> <20010622072708.K724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622072708.K724-100000@zoraida.reyes.somos.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 07:30:14AM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 07:30:14AM -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Thanks for the feedback. Multiple mailboxes is a very usefull feature. > Pine with it's role function at least allows to send mail out with > different IDs. Yes, of course. And mutt can do this too. If you look at the small part of my .muttrc that does this for me, you'll probably get the idea that will get you started :-) # folder hooks & friends set envelope_from=yes set signature=~/.signature folder-hook . 'set sort=threads' folder-hook . 'my_hdr From: Giorgos Keramidas ' folder-hook irc.grnet.hellas 'my_hdr From: Charon ' -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 7: 0:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3213E37B408 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 06:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5NDxtL28917 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:59:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:59:54 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent Message-ID: <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> References: <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <387348.993256255@[192.168.1.60]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <387348.993256255@[192.168.1.60]>; from ipswitch@kleenex.apk.net on Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 00:30:59 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 23, 2001, Stuart Krivis wrote: > > In the meantime, I still have a unix machine that I can run MS Office on. There's an OS X port of Office, or are you referring to vmware or some such? -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 7:41:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A053637B40A for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 38009 invoked by uid 100); 23 Jun 2001 14:41:43 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15156.43687.528839.758090@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:41:43 -0500 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? In-Reply-To: <3B3428D8.6FD65A0C@iowna.com> References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <15155.59329.751227.991311@guru.mired.org> <3B3428D8.6FD65A0C@iowna.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Most of the things are now just differences in how we interpret words. But I wanted to point out one more difference, and an ethical issue. Bill Moran types: > It _is_ clearly bulk because I haven't ordered anything from FreeBSDMall > since January, thus they must have sent this mail out to all their > customers (not just the ones with outstanding orders that may have been > delayed) I don't think it's bulk at all, because "bulk" means "send it to every address you can." In the snail mail world, bulk mail is sent to every address in a zip code (*). In the email world, you get lists of 10s of millions of addresses, with on indication whatsoever that the recipient has any interest in the subject at question. This mail was sent to a specific list of people known to be or have been interested in FreeBSD. These two things are qualitatively different, even if they may not be quantitatively different. > > I don't recall ever seeing any kind of privacy policy for email > > addresses from BSDi. It may be there, and if Wind River violated it, > > they are out of line. They should have printed their press release and > > thrown it in with the subscriptions to get me to pay for the shipping. > Here I'll stand my ground. > You shouldn't have to have a g*d damned legalise document to establish > what can and can not be done everywhere you go. Some things are just a > matter of personal integrity. I provided my email address so my order > could be confirmed. To use that addy for anything else is a violation of > the trust provided when the web form said "please give us your email > address so we can provide you with an order confirmation." Well, if they explicitly said it wsa for order confirmation, then you're right - that's an explicitly stated privacy policy. On the other hand, I would say it's acceptable to send notice of problems with the order should they occur, even though those are outside the area you agreed to. If this mail went to FreeBSD subscribers instead of FreeBSDMall customers, it fits in that area. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 8:41:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C014537B401 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:41:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: from iowna.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5NFbxs01293; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B34B873.2E044814@iowna.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 11:40:35 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <15155.59329.751227.991311@guru.mired.org> <3B3428D8.6FD65A0C@iowna.com> <15156.43687.528839.758090@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > Bill Moran types: > > It _is_ clearly bulk because I haven't ordered anything from FreeBSDMall > > since January, thus they must have sent this mail out to all their > > customers (not just the ones with outstanding orders that may have been > > delayed) > > I don't think it's bulk at all, because "bulk" means "send it to every > address you can." In the snail mail world, bulk mail is sent to every > address in a zip code (*). In the email world, you get lists of 10s of > millions of addresses, with on indication whatsoever that the > recipient has any interest in the subject at question. This mail was > sent to a specific list of people known to be or have been interested > in FreeBSD. These two things are qualitatively different, even if they > may not be quantitatively different. First off, I think we're into the same discussion we had on the definition of spam. Bulk mail does not HAVE to be done in the manner you described. For example: I've done work for a roofing company that, when things get slow in the office, sends out their admin staff to drive around and write down the addresses of houses with slate roofs (they only do slate roofing, obviously) They simply drive around casually and when they see a house with a slate roof, they write down the address. Back at the office, these addresses are added to their mailing datbase (along with previous customers). This constitutes a huge list of addresses that they mail fliers to on a regular basis. It constitutes thousands of pieces per week, and the Post Office sure as heck calls it "bulk mail" (requiring them to follow bulk mail procedures and have the fliers pre-sorted by zip code, and prepackaged in special bulk-mail boxes) Now, in the snail mail world, this is a totally acceptable method of bulk-mailing, and it's definately more targeted than simply going by zip code statistics. (you're totally right about that, I've seen other companies use such statistics) However, imagine that you could port-scan a computer and get a person's email address off it. Then you could port-scan a large number of internet computer, and send email advertising only to the ones using FreeBSD. That would still be spam. And it's only a short breath away to do what Wind River did and take a list of previous customers. > > > I don't recall ever seeing any kind of privacy policy for email > > > addresses from BSDi. It may be there, and if Wind River violated it, > > > they are out of line. They should have printed their press release and > > > thrown it in with the subscriptions to get me to pay for the shipping. > > Here I'll stand my ground. > > You shouldn't have to have a g*d damned legalise document to establish > > what can and can not be done everywhere you go. Some things are just a > > matter of personal integrity. I provided my email address so my order > > could be confirmed. To use that addy for anything else is a violation of > > the trust provided when the web form said "please give us your email > > address so we can provide you with an order confirmation." > > Well, if they explicitly said it wsa for order confirmation, then > you're right - that's an explicitly stated privacy policy. On the > other hand, I would say it's acceptable to send notice of problems > with the order should they occur, even though those are outside the > area you agreed to. If this mail went to FreeBSD subscribers instead > of FreeBSDMall customers, it fits in that area. Well, this is where I feel the whole thing was unprofessional. If they're so confused about ordering that they don't even know who's got an outstanding order and who doesn't, that's VERY unprofessional management. So perhaps the lack of professionalism started in the record keeping area, and it became visible in this email. Personally, I don't think it was a good business move, but (as I've already mentioned) I think the intention was far better than most companies. Had it been my decision, 2 things would have been different. 1) It would have been a much shorter and to the point. 2) It would have come from FreeBSDMall, not Wind River. -Bill -- If a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, then what can I get for two hands in the bush? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 8:49:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7756237B406 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 08:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 53170 invoked by uid 100); 23 Jun 2001 15:49:00 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15156.47724.130130.481094@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:49:00 -0500 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? In-Reply-To: <3B34B873.2E044814@iowna.com> References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <15155.59329.751227.991311@guru.mired.org> <3B3428D8.6FD65A0C@iowna.com> <15156.43687.528839.758090@guru.mired.org> <3B34B873.2E044814@iowna.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > Well, this is where I feel the whole thing was unprofessional. If > they're so confused about ordering that they don't even know who's got > an outstanding order and who doesn't, that's VERY unprofessional > management. That exact situation happened with the 4.2 shipment. They didn't know who had gotten the subscription, and who didn't, and just waited for people to call them and ask. Personally, I prefer getting the email - even if it is longer than I would have liked. I agree, that's a *really* bad situation - but it happened prior to the acquisition, so it may have happened after the acquisition as well. > So perhaps the lack of professionalism started in the record keeping > area, and it became visible in this email. Personally, I don't think it > was a good business move, but (as I've already mentioned) I think the > intention was far better than most companies. > Had it been my decision, 2 things would have been different. > 1) It would have been a much shorter and to the point. > 2) It would have come from FreeBSDMall, not Wind River. Well, shorter and more to the point is always better. As for the second one, that's right as well providing Wind River isn't planning on re-arranging names in some way. I can't think of any such name change I'd consider a good idea, but I don't get to make their decisions. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 12:59:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCBB37B405 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 2153"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K541GOR6W60032T5@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:59:23 EST Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:09:11 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Burning CDs with restricted free software. To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B34F767.8E0F1B7B@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi guys, I'm about to graduate, and I want to take advantage of the good Internet conection that I have here by burning a CD with the free or "educational" Math/Engineering software that is avaiable but not commonly or easily redistributable. There is probably way to build only the RESTRICTED ports in the tree, but the idea is not to copy things that are already in the ports collection (although I would copy for my personal use some of the restricted ones). In my list I have Khoros Scilab and BRL Cad, I also downloaded a multibootable NetBSD iso (you never know when you might need that). What do people on this list recommend for their private collections? Any particular links are welcome tia, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 13:29:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E359C37B405 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.140.184.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.140.184]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29968; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B34FBC6.535C799B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:27:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <20010622221453.B64495@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200106222143.OAA28673@usr06.primenet.com> <20010623133638.A84446@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > This sounds pretty much to me like a vector table, or even > thunking. How is it different? Also, if fsfunc49 (Joe > Walsh reference ;-) exists but the fs doesn't know about > it, how will it still work? Do you simply leave an empty > stub that returns without doing anything, or do you direct > it to a corresponding set of older calls that accomplish > the same thing? I didn't tell you the entire story, since this was about descriptor-based call interfaces, not about the VFS code in particular, except as an aside about how to understand what people view as the most complicated part of it. Note: PHK broke this somewhat when he added "default VOPs"; the intent is that you inherit upward to failure, not to some default for which there exists a real implementation. It will still work, but realize that there are some hard stops missing, where the system will claim an implementation exists, when it should actually fail. --- The easiest place to see this is the "ufs" entry points in the ffs_vnodeop_entries[] table. What I didn't tell you is that the vnode stacking works like this: [ vnode ] -> ,---------. | private | | data | -> [ vnode ] -> ,---------. `---------' | private | | data | `---------' There is a vnodeop_entries vector pointed to by each vnode; there is a vnode per stacking layer (or per stacking layer with implementation semantics, if the vectors are properly collapsed to ensure maximum efficiency: collapse would be through upward inheritance; more on this later). This entry vector is create at mount time, so if you have an fs stacked on top of an FS, you have (simplified) for each FS an entry for: read write stat readdir unlink rename etc.. When you stack, you get an implied "ENOENT", so: Default ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT FS1 read write - - - - FS2 - - stat - - - FS3 - - - readdir unlink - Result read write stat readdir unlink ENOENT The "Result" FS is created by creating a collapsed vector made up of the topmost implementation you come to. Now say you had: Default ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT ENOENT FS1 read write - - - - FS2 - - stat - - - FS3 read write stat readdir unlink - Result read write stat readdir unlink ENOENT How does this work? The answer is, it's still the topmost implementations: the collapsed vector contains exactly the same things -- read, write from FS1, stat from FS2, readdir and unlink from FS3. The difference is that the FS1 read and write must be implemented by calling a read and write in an underlying layer: they are not permitted to do the disk I/O directly. Similarly, the FS2 stat must be implemented by calling a lower layer stat. In this case, FS1 and FS 2 are _stacking VFS layers_, and FS3 is a _local media VFS layer_. The difference is that FS3 can't stack on top of another FS. The FreeBSD code pre-stacks FFS on top of UFS, and that's the default FFS vnodeopv_entry_sec names fff_vnodeop_entries[]. The layer assembly happens when a VFS stack is instanced, which happens at mount time. The layers are set up via a call to vfs_register() (permit me an oversimplification). The main magic lies in the fact that if a layer doesn't know about an entry point, it doesn't touch it, it just passes the descriptor through unmodified to a lower layer, until someone does know about it, or until it hits the ENOENT layer, which doesn't pass anything through. This is why, in the second example, I can call the FS1 read, and it can call the lower layer read, and the FS2 read will just pass it through to the FS3 read, without causing an error. Note: It's possible to optimize this by instancing an FS2+FS3 collapsed vector. This would make the FS1 call directly to the FS3, skipping a "null" VOP passdown. FreeBSD doesn't do this, currently, so a "nullfs" will actually end up adding overhead and vnode pointer (vp) traversals, and allocating vnodes at the null layer for encapsulation of the requests to push them down to the next layer. Very inefficient. 8-(. So to recap: 1) There is a soft version of a coelesced vector stack, which lets the consumer see only the top level entry point for each function. 2) Things are passed by descriptor so that they are a single (usually "void") pointer, so that even though an intermediate layer doesn't know about the operation, it can still pass it on; without this, it would have to know about the arguments for the unknown function so that it could pop them off its call stack and push them back on the stack to call the underlying layer. This can't work. 2a) A size and type are included, so that descriptors can be proxied. This means they can be passed over a single network pipe, or passed to user space, to let people develope VFS stacking layers there, or proxied elsewhere. 3) There is a "hard stop" layer at the bottom. 4) There is a difference between "local media" FS's and "VFS stacking layer" FS's: a "local media" FS is very much the same as a "hard stop" layer, in that the calls can not be pushed down further. 5) The top level represents a consumer (in FreeBSD, there are two consumers: the system call interface, and the NFS server code). 6) There are a lot of optimizations that could be done that FreeBSD isn't doing. 6a) Interior vector collapse, to get rid of null VOPs in intermediate layers, reduce call overhead, and reduce resource wastage (e.g. vnodes per layer). 6b) List vector sorting of all known VOPs. This would permit instantiated stacks to save one lookup, one dereference, and one function call overhead, per call. 6c) Optimized direct vector handoff. This would let a stacking or implementation layer make a VOP call itself, without the descriptor unpack and repack that's currently necessary. It's all a pretty trivial assembly of data structures, if you understand the linkages. So it's not hard to understand, it's just not often explained properly for students. Mostly, students are expected to read the FICUS papers, and in particular, John Heidemann's Master's Thesis on VFS stacking architecture in FICUS: this is the same code that he and UCLA donated to CSRG, and which became the VFS stacking in BSD4.4, and thus FreeBSD. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 17:52: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F78B37B407 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA80073; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 02:51:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , Anton Berezin , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com> <20010623133910.E71218@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Jun 2001 02:51:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010623133910.E71218@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > > I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly > > > readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. > fortune candidate? Hmm, I think it's a paraphrase of a Mark Twain quote, which probably already is in the fortune database. At least, it sounds like the kind of thing Mark Twain could have said if he had lived in this day and age. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 18:56: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC0637B405 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r10.bfm.org [216.127.220.106]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:00:10 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010623205528.00e64210@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:55:28 -0500 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:32 2001-06-21 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > >In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? >Not including asm Is that supposed to imply that asm is complex or something? Because I would have to strongly disagree with any such implication. Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 20:11:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C768837B401 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 66914 invoked by uid 100); 24 Jun 2001 03:04:47 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15157.22735.352226.504786@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:04:47 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert , Anton Berezin , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: References: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com> <20010623133910.E71218@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav types: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > > > I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly > > > > readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. > > fortune candidate? > Hmm, I think it's a paraphrase of a Mark Twain quote, which probably > already is in the fortune database. At least, it sounds like the kind > of thing Mark Twain could have said if he had lived in this day and > age. While it is reminiscent of Mr. Clemens, if it's a paraphrase I'm not aware of it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 23 22: 1:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58C637B405 for ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15E21C-000HBG-00; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:01:06 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5O515c12536; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:01:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:01:05 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010624060105.A12278@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010621233210.A37804@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3.0.6.32.20010623205528.00e64210@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010623205528.00e64210@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 08:55:28PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 23, 2001 at 08:55:28PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: | At 23:32 2001-06-21 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: | > | >In everyone's opinion, what is the most complex code in the BSD codebase? | >Not including asm | | Is that supposed to imply that asm is complex or something? Because | I would have to strongly disagree with any such implication. Well, i guess i would have said that for 2 possible reasons: first, because asm is machine dependent, so what might required for one task under a cpu would not have the same implementation on others. Second, maybe cryptic is a better choice than complex. While asm works with the most primitive of operations and could not literally be complex, sometimes (a) the task being done leads to cryptic or confusing code or (b) a sequence of instructions used which has subtle implications not obvious on first glance, especially to someone who has only a surface level knowledge of asm. For example, the code previously posted that used an unusual characteristic of PDP-10 (IIRC) code to alter a return address. Someone who knows the basic instructions, but did not know about this idiosyncracy might spend hours trying to figure out the most simple of instructions because their full effect is not understood. I remember once when i was tracing some 6510 code that was trying to hide itself and cover its tracks. The code loaded into zero page, then suddenly ended up under the kernel above 0xFF00. It wasn't until i found out later that the code had overwritten the disk drive buffer pointer in zero page that it made sense how the code got there. The code was trivial. The effect was subtle, but extremely significant. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message