Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:43:27 GMT From: greyheart@fnmail.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: brett@lariat.org Message-ID: <199911220243.CAA27066@mx1.xcelcom.com>
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On Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 11:21:03AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 06:02 PM 11/21/1999 +0000, greyheart@fnmail.com wrote:
>
> Reading this article really pissed me off. The solutions are
> >so obvious that I can't see why you're complaining about not having
> >enough attention.
>
> Pray tell, please explain what "the solutions" are, and what problems
> you believe that they solve.
The problem I've heard for months in the FreeBSD lists: lack
of attention. The solution: use GNU popularity for your own benefit.
> >You asked for it! When you're leaving GNU aside,
> >you're putting yourself aside.
>
> Not at all. The GPL -- and most especially Stallman's "Free"
> Software Foundation (a misnomer because it actually "captures"
> software rather than making it freely available) -- have very badly
> hurt the open source community. (Note: Technically, GPLed software
> is not open source, because the GPL does not meet the criteria for
> an open source license enumerated at www.opensource.org. The GPL
> discriminates against a field of endeavor -- the creation of
> commercial and proprietary software -- and thus fails the test.)
>
> The GPL is an attempt to turn open source, which is a good thing,
into a
> weapon against legitimate businesses and against programmers'
> livelihoods. It enforces Richard Stallman's 20+ year grudge against
> anyone who would like to turn knowledge gleaned from academic
research
> into useful products.
I could speak about it for hours, but I know you've listened
the same stuff over and over again. I'll just make a real-life
example:
It's like I making a song. Since I'm not well known in the
artistic media, I have no success at all, so I say: --"I'll give it to
all the people I know." It happens that a famous singer hear it, take
it and sing it. He makes millions, and he protects the song with the
anti-piracy model that we're used to see in the music stuff. I
make not a penny and my friends nor _myself_ can no longer hear my
song.
I've lost my song, my time, and my credit. And all this happened
because I was unprotected.
> This agenda is not lost on businesspeople who are considering the use
> of open source software. In fact, many do not realize that there are
open
> source solutions (such as FreeBSD) which are NOT licensed under the
GPL's
> "poison pill" license, and so reject open source altogether.
>
> Perhaps this is why COMDEX segregated those "Linux loonies" in a
separate
> hall at COMDEX, under an entirely different trade show name. (I am
told
> that they WOULD NOT let open source vendors onto the main show
floor.)
> COMDEX saw Linux -- and alas, by association, all open source -- as a
> movement that was antagonistic to business, as expressly stated in
> Stallman's writings. So, they removed it from the sphere of those who
> wanted to make money from their efforts. It's a shame that FreeBSD
was
> lumped in with it, as FreeBSD does not embrace Stallman's spiteful
> agenda.
It isn't like that. Business people take open source
seriously, it's just that this is the beginning. I'm not in the
business stuff, but I do get some magazines about business at job, and
they speak about open source since a year or two ago. The most
remarkable example of open source mixed in business stuff is
RedHat. They are making millions with GNU/Linux, and the
GPL didn't complain yet.
You got to remember that there're people that don't understand
what open source is, know nothing about computers, even less they've
heard about GPL, so there's a way to go before open source get to the
place where Microsoft is, so that's why we are at a second
place. Remember that not long ago there was nothing in COMDEX about
open source, and I mean NOTHING. It was all about Microsoft.
GPL is the best way to make a project, commercial or not,
open source. If I'd make commercial programs and I'd like to make it
open source, I'd never use FreeBSD license. My company worked hard to
make the program, I have employees that don't work for free, should I
be happy droping the source for anybody to make money of it. I don't
think so.
On the other side, if I put the software under the GPL, I win in all
senses. I'll have thousands of users and programmers around the world
to make my project better than the original. Indeed, I'd have millions
of persons using my program.
> > Gnu people get to this stage not without efforts, with
> >advocacy, with time, with money, with _love_ for computer. So they
are
> >where they are, with all the attention going for them. They already
> >are conquering the world, though lot of people say something
> >different.
>
> It sounds as if you've embraced Stallman's rhetoric, lock stock, and
> barrel. Think critically, man! The entire "GNU" agenda is nothing
> but spite against those who want to make money from what they do.
> Can't you see that?
I am open to anything (well, almost anything :) ), and I
surely judged the whole FSF stuff early in my entering on
GNU/Linux. My fist thought was: "Hey, but this GPL stuff wouldn't
allow me to make money from my own efforts, and yet it will make
somebody on X country to make money out of it!", and soon I discovered
that both were false. I have some experience with "foundations" that
make a lot of money out of people's ignorance, and I'm sure FSF isn't
one of them. I just got to see Richard Stallman to make myself sure
about it.
So now I am sure that GPL protects me, and I feel comfortable
with it. Yet, I'm not religious about this. I'll take what is more
convenient for me at the time, so that's why I tried FreeBSD. And I
really liked it, but soon I realiced the harm that it was doing to
itself with its philosophycal believes, and got to move to a strongly
ground.
> > And there it is FreeBSD, a better, faster, and more stable
OS,
> >but with an attitude problem.
>
> While some of the people involved with FreeBSD do have attitude
> problems (there are definitely some elitists in the bunch who should
> come down off of their high horses), the same problems are rampant
> in the GPL camp.
Yes, it is. There're problems, like everything involving human
beings. I didn't say GPL was perfect, I certainly don't expect FreeBSD
to be perfect.
> >Now is the time for FreeBSD to start thinking
> >of change, because the world is changing. All the pieces are in the
> >right place RIGHT NOW, for you to become widely known. Use them, or
> >die.
>
> The open threat in the above paragraph -- not exactly the "love and
> flowers" attitude you claimed earlier in your message -- betrays
> the true attitude behind the GPL and the FSF.
Ok, it was rude, but I didn't mean it. I'd rather use
something like: "Use them or stay on the basement." I didn't
say "_I_ will kill you".
Seriously though, I'm not a preacher, I'm not in the "love and
flowers" business. I don't want you to love your buddy next to you
(although it would be a nice thing to do), I just want YOU to open
your mind and forget about prejudices. It is hard, I know. I wouldn't
like to be the only one in a room with a whole bunch of FreeBSD users,
and say: "Hey, let's embrace GPL". But I think you all got to think
what's better for your OS.
Jimmy.
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