From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 5:31:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E1E37B68C; Sun, 21 May 2000 05:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p54-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.119]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id VAA20408; Sun, 21 May 2000 21:30:21 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3927CA82.A07E7465@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:37:38 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <200005182036.NAA21308@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > His history is not 100% correct, and it's going to potentially > hurt BSD in the long run to have lots of people believing it > because it's now "common knowledge". The author answered comments on Slashdot and said he would make corrections. In other words, if you send corrections to him, they are likely to be accepted. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@another.bsdconspiracy.org "Sentience hurts." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 6: 8: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D997D37B876 for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 06:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00245 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 21 May 2000 16:09:01 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 16:09:01 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000521160901.A215@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Sat, May 20, 2000 at 06:01:13PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 20, 2000 at 06:01:13PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > A chess game is an event, not a literary or artistic work of any sort. > > > > Sorry, but millions of chess fans who enjoy studying famous and brilliant > > games and compositions won't agree. Your claim is as sensible as claiming > > that a symphony can't be copyrighted. > > Not at all. Copyright of music is specifically provided for by the > statute. A chess game, however, is not a literary or artistic work of > any sort, *as defined by the statute*. This is correct. Perhaps you're missing the context. I originally brought in the example of chess games, in order to show that the concept of copyright as a *natural* property right (which the statute merely codifies) is indefensible. The point being, as far as their "natural" properties are concerned, the difference between a chess game and a music composition is perhaps of a degree but not of a kind. The statute clearly gives preferential treatment to kinds of intellectual activity the society feels to be especially worth encouraging. Thus I'm not rallying for copyright on chess games, but am using the example of chess ironically to attack the naive and dangerous idea of copyright that has becomes especially widespread recently. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 9: 3:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C53837B92B for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01185; Sun, 21 May 2000 10:03:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000521100105.046818a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 10:02:49 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <392779A9.87E47388@mail.ptd.net> References: <003b01bfbcdc$6059fb40$a164aad0@kickme> <391D71FE.1570F551@asme.org> <20000513205610.A22103@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <3.0.6.32.20000513143506.00895650@mail85.pair.com> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <4.3.1.2.20000519144129.04244e60@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000520081306.046e03d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:52 PM 5/20/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >With respect to plays and conerts, another consideration is that the >work being performed may be copyrighted. More importantly, the performers have rights in the performance. If you publish a tape of the performance, you'd better pay the actors, musicians, etc. >I think it's a statutory, not constitutional, question. One could argue >that a batting average could be copyrighted because it takes some work >to calculate, beyond merely observing a game. Not so. The Supreme Court has ruled that the work must be CREATIVE in nature. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 12: 1: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4199F37BA45 for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 12:01:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02284; Sun, 21 May 2000 13:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000521125607.041b0100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:00:51 -0600 To: Anatoly Vorobey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? In-Reply-To: <20000521160901.A215@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> <20000514010614.A16058@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513180213.00894400@mail85.pair.com> <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:09 AM 5/21/2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >This is correct. Perhaps you're missing the context. I originally >brought in the example of chess games, in order to show that the concept >of copyright as a *natural* property right (which the statute merely >codifies) is indefensible. The point being, as far as their "natural" >properties are concerned, the difference between a chess game and >a music composition is perhaps of a degree but not of a kind. The >statute clearly gives preferential treatment to kinds of intellectual >activity the society feels to be especially worth encouraging. The entire purpose of copyrights and patents is to encourage intellectual activity. And they work for that purpose. A chess game is an interesting case in some would say that the game was an improvisational performance, sort of like an improvisational dance. On the other hand, the moves in a chess game are also functional, and copyright specifically does NOT cover items that are functional. (Business forms, for example, can't be copyrighted unless they add something which could be considered creative, and then only the creative part cannot be copied.) Moves in a chess game ARE functional (the function being to beat the opponent), and some are even provably optimal. So, they might not be protected. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 13:18:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DCF37B5D4 for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 13:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06557 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 21 May 2000 13:18:09 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:18:09 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml Just in case you missed this on slashdot. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 14:18:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A703E37B53B for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15973; Sun, 21 May 2000 17:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA06104; Sun, 21 May 2000 17:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06099; Sun, 21 May 2000 17:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Alexander Langer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 2000 12:14:09 +0200." <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 17:17:50 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Redirected to -chat. In message <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com>, Alexander Langer write s: > Thus spake James Howard (howardjp@wam.umd.edu): > > > * I sold out. I will be working as a Linux admin. I am so ashamed. Is > > there a freebsd-repentence mailing list I need to email? > > freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins@freebsd.org you mean? This is the Postfix program at host hub.freebsd.org. I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please contact If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Postfix program : unknown user: "freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins" I guess I should note I have never seen a Postfix error message. I hate it. It is way too friendly and helpful. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 21:40:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7446237BACE for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 21:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.134.27]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA378A for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 23:38:42 -0400 Message-ID: <3928BB83.25EAC453@asme.org> Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 23:45:55 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma wrote: > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > Just in case you missed this on slashdot. > The article is excellent, but many people probably lost the (unfortunate) reference to FreeBSD while preparing for the general flamewar: "In a different case, the newsgroups comp.risks recently published a report of rather horrendous and elementary C errors found in a quick and simple check of the source of the FreeBSD operating system (see http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/20.18.html#subj9.1)." cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 21 22:51:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 038C237BB2B for ; Sun, 21 May 2000 22:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 25163 invoked from network); 22 May 2000 05:50:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 22 May 2000 05:50:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 10268 invoked by uid 211); 22 May 2000 05:50:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:20:45 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: Alexander Langer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set Message-ID: <20000522112045.B10249@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , Alexander Langer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 05:17:50PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > * I sold out. I will be working as a Linux admin. I am so ashamed. Is > > > there a freebsd-repentence mailing list I need to email? > > > > freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins@freebsd.org you mean? > > This is the Postfix program at host hub.freebsd.org. > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > > For further assistance, please contact > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > delete your own text from the message returned below. > > The Postfix program > > : unknown user: > "freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins" > > > I guess I should note I have never seen a Postfix error message. I hate > it. It is way too friendly and helpful. Ugh. I thought qmail was bad, but it's nothing like this. (In that respect, I mean. No reflection on its performance as a MTA.) R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 4:52:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B7C37BF94 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 04:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06027; Mon, 22 May 2000 14:52:56 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:52:56 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:18:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:18:09PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > Just in case you missed this on slashdot. I thought it was really, really silly, in the true spirit of Meyer wars raging occassionally on comp.object (the most memorable one being "had they used Eiffel, that rocket wouldn't have crashed!"). Meyer reveals philosophical naiveness so astonishing one feels embarrassed for him. I was particularly amused by his incisive analysis of the history of copyright, in which he failed to display any awareness of the differences between material and intellectual property, culminating with the passage which redefines the word "ahistorical": .. Until the 18th century, writers were ripped off by publishers. The gradual imposition of a copyright (due largely in France to Beaumarchais, author of the Barber of Seville and the Marriage of Figaro as well as smuggler of arms to the American revolution) was a major moral correction, re-establishing the rights of the creators. *re*-establishing, Dr. Meyer? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 6:59:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A88537B713 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 06:59:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 29242 invoked from network); 22 May 2000 13:58:52 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 22 May 2000 13:58:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 21122 invoked by uid 211); 22 May 2000 13:58:52 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:28:52 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522192852.A21093@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com>; from mellon@pobox.com on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 02:52:56PM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That article wasn't worthy of notice. Apart from being totally misguided and misinformed, I think to argue against free software on "ethical" grounds is an act of utter desperation. Even the worst "how-can-a-bunch-of-hackers-compete-with-Microsoft" article I've read didn't compare with this. And the gloating GNU-bashers out there can note that his reference to FreeBSD wasn't so flattering either. (But I'm curious, is it really true that there were three instances of "if (x=y)" in the source?) Anatoly Vorobey said on May 22, 2000 at 14:52:56: > On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:18:09PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > > > Just in case you missed this on slashdot. > > I thought it was really, really silly, in the true spirit of > Meyer wars raging occassionally on comp.object (the most memorable > one being "had they used Eiffel, that rocket wouldn't have crashed!"). > > Meyer reveals philosophical naiveness so astonishing one feels > embarrassed for him. I was particularly amused by his incisive > analysis of the history of copyright, in which he failed to > display any awareness of the differences between material and > intellectual property, culminating with the passage which > redefines the word "ahistorical": > > .. Until the 18th century, writers were ripped off by publishers. The > gradual imposition of a copyright (due largely in France to > Beaumarchais, author of the Barber of Seville and the Marriage of > Figaro as well as smuggler of arms to the American revolution) was a > major moral correction, re-establishing the rights of the creators. > > *re*-establishing, Dr. Meyer? > > -- > Anatoly Vorobey, > mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ > "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 7:10:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161F737B713 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 07:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12tsu4-000B4T-00; Mon, 22 May 2000 16:09:56 +0200 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:09:56 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522160955.A42498@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000522192852.A21093@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000522192852.A21093@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 07:28:52PM +0530 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2000-05-22 (19:28), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > And the gloating GNU-bashers out there can note that his reference > to FreeBSD wasn't so flattering either. (But I'm curious, is it > really true that there were three instances of "if (x=y)" in the > source?) Since when is "if (x=y)" always wrong? Actually, talking to people, it appears that at least two of these instances were not incorrect. The first was in a defined out section of code that would never be reached, and the second was correct. (Yes, I do know about "if ((x = y))") Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 8: 8:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28AA337B556 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 30116 invoked from network); 22 May 2000 15:07:45 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 22 May 2000 15:07:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 21442 invoked by uid 211); 22 May 2000 15:07:44 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:37:44 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522203744.A21431@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000522192852.A21093@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522160955.A42498@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522160955.A42498@mithrandr.moria.org>; from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:09:56PM +0200 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > to FreeBSD wasn't so flattering either. (But I'm curious, is it > > really true that there were three instances of "if (x=y)" in the > > source?) > > Since when is "if (x=y)" always wrong? > > Actually, talking to people, it appears that at least two of these > instances were not incorrect. The first was in a defined out section of > code that would never be reached, and the second was correct. Ah. I thought there must be some explanation... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 11:57:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB24F37C05B for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 11:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12429; Mon, 22 May 2000 12:56:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000522125201.00e4be10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:56:45 -0600 To: Anatoly Vorobey , Arun Sharma From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:52 AM 5/22/2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: >I thought it was really, really silly, in the true spirit of >Meyer wars raging occassionally on comp.object (the most memorable >one being "had they used Eiffel, that rocket wouldn't have crashed!"). I thought that it was extremely insightful. However, it did not cite some of the best examples of the FSF's intentional malevolence (and, therefore, lack of ethics) and thus could have made stronger arguments. The dig at FreeBSD was unfortunate. However, it was really more of a dig at the C language (which truly IS a source of serious bugs and security holes). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 12:39:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9926737BADE for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 12:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 200 invoked from network); 22 May 2000 19:39:28 -0000 Received: from du211045.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.45) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 22 May 2000 19:39:28 -0000 Message-ID: <39298CCA.EA32A49D@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:38:50 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522145256.A5983@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000522192852.A21093@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > And the gloating GNU-bashers out there can note that his reference > to FreeBSD wasn't so flattering either. (But I'm curious, is it > really true that there were three instances of "if (x=y)" in the > source?) It was also seriously out of date: the reference dated to Jan 99. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 12:59:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5EE937B9C5 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 12:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA29999 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 May 2000 20:58:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:58:53 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: xmach? Message-ID: <20000522205853.A29904@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, Anyone know anything about xmach? http://www.xmach.org/ N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 16:39:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F9237B806; Mon, 22 May 2000 16:39:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA95574; Mon, 22 May 2000 16:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 16:39:04 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Message-ID: <20000522163904.A94994@azazel.zer0.org> References: <20000518151609.SQYR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> <20000519164145.DHRQ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000519164145.DHRQ22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, May 19, 2000 at 12:42:35PM -0400 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-05-19 12:42 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > On 18-May-00 John Baldwin wrote: > > > > Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, > > cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. > > Oops, forgot about Murray (murray), so the count should be 7 and 9, > respectively. jkh lives in Clyde, not Concord. jim and unfurl just moved from Walnut Creek to Martinez. msmith lives in Vacaville. I live in Berkeley. If you're counting _workplace_ rather than residence, it's 8 and 10. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 17: 4:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5659837B87D for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 17:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA96156; Mon, 22 May 2000 17:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:03:35 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:18:09PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-05-21 13:18 -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > Just in case you missed this on slashdot. Don't miss the excellent rebuttal by Christopher Montgomery: http://www.advogato.org/article/94.html Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Black holes were created mailto:gsutter@zer0.org when God divided by zero. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 17:29:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520C037B6FC for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 17:29:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16258; Mon, 22 May 2000 18:29:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000522182753.00df98e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:28:59 -0600 To: Gregory Sutter , Arun Sharma From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:03 PM 5/22/2000, Gregory Sutter wrote: >Don't miss the excellent rebuttal by Christopher Montgomery: > >http://www.advogato.org/article/94.html This isn't a rebuttal; it's a somewhat nit-picky critique that covers only a few specific points and argues mostly on the basis of religion. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 18:18:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1D837B7AD for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keichii@iteration.net) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 26A3B64C22; Mon, 22 May 2000 20:18:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:18:19 -0500 From: "Michael C. Wu" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set Message-ID: <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: keichii@bsdconspiracy.net Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C. Wu" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu> <20000522112045.B10249@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522112045.B10249@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:20:45AM +0530 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:20:45AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan scribbled: | > > > * I sold out. I will be working as a Linux admin. I am so ashamed. Is | > > > there a freebsd-repentence mailing list I need to email? | > > freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins@freebsd.org you mean? | > This is the Postfix program at host hub.freebsd.org. | > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned | > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. | > For further assistance, please contact | > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can | > delete your own text from the message returned below. | > The Postfix program | > : unknown user: | > "freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins" | > I guess I should note I have never seen a Postfix error message. I hate | > it. It is way too friendly and helpful. | Ugh. I thought qmail was bad, but it's nothing like this. | (In that respect, I mean. No reflection on its performance as | a MTA.) ---end quoted text--- I do not understand why we cannot have a friendly yet professional sounding "auto-reply" message. For the average user, it is much easier for them to understand the above mail than reading the Sendmail bounce message. Professional sounding is all good, but not at the price of clearity and easy-of-use. In this case, can you write a message that is more concise, clear, and yet still friendly to the average OE/Eudora/Outlook/Messenger-email-user? If that was a joke, hit the "d" key on your keyboard now. :) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net - Yes, this is a conspiracy. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 19:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAB637BC6D for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 19:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000523023053.EMTR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx>; Mon, 22 May 2000 19:30:53 -0700 Content-Length: 1167 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000522163904.A94994@azazel.zer0.org> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:30:53 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: Let me introduce myself... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <20000523023053.EMTR22611.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@john.baldwin.cx> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 22-May-00 Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2000-05-19 12:42 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >> On 18-May-00 John Baldwin wrote: >> > >> > Concord, CA should be up to 6 now? (jkh, msmith, jim, unfurl, obrien, >> > cshumway) and should be up to 8 (wpaul, jhb) in another month or so. >> >> Oops, forgot about Murray (murray), so the count should be 7 and 9, >> respectively. > > jkh lives in Clyde, not Concord. jim and unfurl just moved from Walnut > Creek to Martinez. msmith lives in Vacaville. I live in Berkeley. > > If you're counting _workplace_ rather than residence, it's 8 and 10. I think all the Boulder people live in that general area, and that Boulder may be larger than Concord proper. :) But yes, my memory is in very rough shape as I forgot you as well. *sigh* > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. > mailto:gsutter@zer0.org > http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 19:32:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 993B437B735 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 19:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 37775 invoked from network); 23 May 2000 02:32:16 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 23 May 2000 02:32:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 23763 invoked by uid 211); 23 May 2000 02:32:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:02:14 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: keichii@bsdconspiracy.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set Message-ID: <20000523080214.A23727@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: keichii@bsdconspiracy.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu> <20000522112045.B10249@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@peorth.iteration.net on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:18:19PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael C. Wu said on May 22, 2000 at 20:18:19: > On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:20:45AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan scribbled: > | > > > * I sold out. I will be working as a Linux admin. I am so ashamed. Is > | > > > there a freebsd-repentence mailing list I need to email? > | > > freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins@freebsd.org you mean? > > | > This is the Postfix program at host hub.freebsd.org. > | > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > | > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > | > For further assistance, please contact > | > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > | > delete your own text from the message returned below. > | > The Postfix program > > | > : unknown user: > | > "freebsd-ashamed-linux-admins" > | > I guess I should note I have never seen a Postfix error message. I hate > | > it. It is way too friendly and helpful. > > | Ugh. I thought qmail was bad, but it's nothing like this. > | (In that respect, I mean. No reflection on its performance as > | a MTA.) > ---end quoted text--- > > I do not understand why we cannot have a friendly yet professional > sounding "auto-reply" message. For the average user, it is much > easier for them to understand the above mail than reading the > Sendmail bounce message. Professional sounding is all good, but > not at the price of clearity and easy-of-use. In this case, > can you write a message that is more concise, clear, and yet > still friendly to the average OE/Eudora/Outlook/Messenger-email-user? The funny thing is the friendly sounding part tells you *nothing* (except that there was an unrecoverable error of some kind). If you have to look at what the error was ("unknown user"), it's no clearer than sendmail's (which is clear enough, imo). The same is true of qmail, and ezmlm, both by Dan Bernstein. Great programs both, but when ezmlm bounces a message because a subject line wasn't specified, it includes a friendly, long and meaningless message on the top, and a brief error message regarding the subject line somewhere below where newbies are often afraid to look... Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 19:51:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9136D37B6AC for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 19:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4CA379B01; Mon, 22 May 2000 21:19:09 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:19:09 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: keichii@bsdconspiracy.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set Message-ID: <20000522211909.Q660@linkfast.net> References: <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu> <20000522112045.B10249@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@peorth.iteration.net on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:18:19PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:18:19PM -0500, a little birdie told me that Michael C. Wu remarked > > I do not understand why we cannot have a friendly yet professional > sounding "auto-reply" message. For the average user, it is much > easier for them to understand the above mail than reading the > Sendmail bounce message. Professional sounding is all good, but > not at the price of clearity and easy-of-use. In this case, > can you write a message that is more concise, clear, and yet > still friendly to the average OE/Eudora/Outlook/Messenger-email-user? Hi, this is FOO-SMTPD. You're so damn stupid you can't even type an address right, and you expect me to deal with it? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 20:25:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 193A237B7DF for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 20:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 38128 invoked from network); 23 May 2000 03:25:13 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 23 May 2000 03:25:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 6051 invoked by uid 211); 23 May 2000 03:25:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:55:10 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 05:03:35PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter said on May 22, 2000 at 17:03:35: > On 2000-05-21 13:18 -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml > > > > Just in case you missed this on slashdot. > > Don't miss the excellent rebuttal by Christopher Montgomery: > > http://www.advogato.org/article/94.html The original article glosses over what I think is the real point behind free software, and the rebuttal also does not tackle this point as firmly as it could: that is, software is a tool, not just a work of art, and therefore you should have the freedom to tinker with it just as you can tinker with your music system or your car. Bob Young's comparison of closed-source software with "a car whose hood is welded shut" is excellent. Instead the article confuses the whole idea, and alleges that RMS/the FSF don't want you to pay for your software (in fact RMS carefully distinguishes between free speech and free beer). The article includes in its definition of free software a requirement that "it must be available from at least one source without charge", but while this tends to be true in practice, nowhere is it required either by the FSF or by the Open Source initiative. The advogato article accepts this requirement without questioning. What the FSF wants is that just as you can examine your music system, fix it, enhance it, and resell it or give it away, you should be able to do that with software too. You can only do that if the source code is available. In addition, software has the property that you can copy it perfectly at very little cost, and the FSF says you should be allowed to do that too. They have a mechanism (the GPL) that tries to guarantee you can do both. People have tried to preserve the freedom to tinker while curtailing the freedom to distribute (eg Sun), and such licenses have had problems of their own which have made them unpopular with hackers. The article targets the second point (freedom to distribute) to the exclusion of the first (freedom to modify), but it is the first that is really the fundamental idea. It exists everywhere else, why not in software? And the article gives me the impression (maybe unfair, I don't know) that all this "ethics" stuff is an eyewash to cover the author's own feeling of insecurity against these free competitors, or something. The advogato article is not bad but I think the author could have made this point earlier and more clearly in the article, rather than start off by going on the defensive against the personal attacks on RMS and ESR. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 20:37: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E1737B53C for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 20:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18116; Mon, 22 May 2000 21:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000522213325.0446bc00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:36:05 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:25 PM 5/22/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >The original article glosses over what I think is the real point >behind free software, and the rebuttal also does not tackle this point >as firmly as it could: that is, software is a tool, not just a work of >art, and therefore you should have the freedom to tinker with it just >as you can tinker with your music system or your car. Bob Young's >comparison of closed-source software with "a car whose hood is welded >shut" is excellent. No, it's not. Creative works are very different from physical objects. And looking under the hood of a car doesn't give you the ability to create unlimited numbers of identical cars, thereby depriving the automobile manufacturer of any future reward from his work. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 21: 8:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA6F37B898 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 21:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA37566; Tue, 23 May 2000 00:07:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:07:35 -0400 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Matthew Fuller Cc: keichii@bsdconspiracy.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set Message-ID: <20000523000734.E36986@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000521121409.F3710@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200005212117.RAA06099@rac10.wam.umd.edu> <20000522112045.B10249@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net> <20000522211909.Q660@linkfast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000522211909.Q660@linkfast.net>; from fullermd@linkfast.net on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 09:19:09PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 09:19:09PM -0500, Matthew Fuller wrote: > On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 08:18:19PM -0500, a little birdie told me > that Michael C. Wu remarked > > > > I do not understand why we cannot have a friendly yet professional > > sounding "auto-reply" message. For the average user, it is much > > easier for them to understand the above mail than reading the > > Sendmail bounce message. Professional sounding is all good, but > > not at the price of clearity and easy-of-use. In this case, > > can you write a message that is more concise, clear, and yet > > still friendly to the average OE/Eudora/Outlook/Messenger-email-user? > > Hi, this is FOO-SMTPD. > You're so damn stupid you can't even type an address right, and you > expect me to deal with it? > > I would really like it if, say... When you open the returned mail, an animated paper clip appears from nowhere and demands that you start clicking in dialog boxes it starts to cheerily shout at you. Then it pulls all addresses from your address book that are similar to the one that bounced and sends the mail again to each and everyone of those addresses. That would be helpful. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 22:26: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952DC37BA1A for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 22:25:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11438; Mon, 22 May 2000 22:24:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:24:38 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from Rahul Siddharthan on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 08:55:10AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 08:55:10AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Instead the article confuses the whole idea, and alleges that RMS/the > FSF don't want you to pay for your software (in fact RMS carefully > distinguishes between free speech and free beer). The distinction between free speech and free beer is bogus. If you can pay Sun or Microsoft $1000 per line of code, they'll easily sell you the rights to the code. You can GPL it and have free speech and they won't have a problem with you. Their curtailing of your right to look at the code (!free speech) is motivated by their desire to make money (!free beer). Therefore free beer and free speech are not two entirely different concepts, with the former being despicable and the latter being divine. Again, the analogy between free speech and free software is flawed. "Free listening to market research by a Merrill Lynch analyst" would be closer. The claim that "for profit software" and "closed source software" are different is not supported by market realities. Neither RMS nor ESR have come up with a viable economic model which can support all the programmers being supported by the current closed source software economy. If I were to take free software as anything more than a hobby, they'll have to answer the hard economic questions. Otherwise, they'll just limit their support bases to impressionable college kids, non-professional programmers, rich and/or famous ivory tower kinds and USENET trolls (which I think is currently the case). It's good to see Linus and Larry Wall standing up and saying that people should have the right to copyright their work and benefit from it. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2573456,00.html I think the real benefits of open source are the elimination of mediocre products with ridiculous price tags and in CS education. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 23:20:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A011037BC9D for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 39523 invoked by uid 211); 23 May 2000 06:19:57 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:49:57 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 10:24:38PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The claim that "for profit software" and "closed source software" are > different is not supported by market realities. Neither RMS nor ESR > have come up with a viable economic model which can support all the > programmers being supported by the current closed source software economy. You're suggesting two things here: (1) All the programmers today have a natural right to be supported by the economy, even if the glut of software jobs is a result of artificial scarcities rather than real need. (2) If all software was "free" or "opensource", the number of programming jobs would decrease. I disagree on both counts. In particular, today's environment requires a huge number of programmers, system administrators and other sorts of computer people, and I just don't see that changing even if all the software was opensource. Quite the opposite, actually. If the windows source code, for example, was opened, I believe the demand for competent windows programmers (as opposed to MCSE's who can't set up a webserver without help) would go up by an order of magnitude or more, simply because companies -- a few brave ones at first, but more and more as time went by -- would want to dig in there and customise it for their own setups, improve its security, add features they need, remove features they don't need, and so on without having to beg Microsoft. Some companies are already on that route with linux. Right now they don't have that option with proprietary operating systems and software; if they did have such an option it would be a big gain for them and a *huge* boost for the programmer market. There will be little or no effect on the customised/specialised software market either -- banking software, airport management, and so on. These people are always going to hire some software firm to custom-design a setup for their particular needs, and be willing to pay heavily for it, and that's not going to change even if all the underlying software is "free". The only programming market which would conceivably suffer a bit is that of prepackaged, mass-produced, bloated, overpriced junk like MS Windows and MS Office. Frankly, I have no problem with that scenario. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 22 23:45:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1F537BAC1 for ; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11761; Mon, 22 May 2000 23:44:12 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:44:12 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000522234412.A11711@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from Rahul Siddharthan on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:49:57AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:49:57AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > The claim that "for profit software" and "closed source software" are > > different is not supported by market realities. Neither RMS nor ESR > > have come up with a viable economic model which can support all the > > programmers being supported by the current closed source software economy. > > You're suggesting two things here: > (1) All the programmers today have a natural right to be supported by > the economy, even if the glut of software jobs is a result of artificial > scarcities rather than real need. All programmers have a natural right to earn a living. If someone suggests a new economic model and it doesn't support them, they have a right to reject the model. Most people do this silently, without arguing this out on the net, by continuing to work for closed source software companies. > (2) If all software was "free" or "opensource", the number of > programming jobs would decrease. It's not the total number of jobs - it's the total amount of money to be made, that defines the size of the economy. > Quite the opposite, actually. If the windows source code, for > example, was opened, I believe the demand for competent windows > programmers (as opposed to MCSE's who can't set up a webserver without > help) would go up by an order of magnitude or more, simply because > companies -- a few brave ones at first, but more and more as time went > by -- would want to dig in there and customise it for their own > setups, improve its security, add features they need, remove features > they don't need, and so on without having to beg Microsoft. Perhaps if it is released under the BSD license. If it is released under GPL, someone else will come along, write the next big feature (speech recognition or whatever) and the network effects will favor them instead of GPL'ed windows. > Some companies are already on that route with linux. Right now they > don't have that option with proprietary operating systems and software; > if they did have such an option it would be a big gain for them and > a *huge* boost for the programmer market. Again, it depends on which kind of programmers benefit from this. If you're a 20 year old newbie programmer, that's a great situation to have. However, if you are a UNIX architect with 20 years of experience, you don't want to waste your skills customizing perl for a mom and pop shop. > There will be little or no effect on the customised/specialised > software market either -- banking software, airport management, and > so on. These people are always going to hire some software firm to > custom-design a setup for their particular needs, and be willing to > pay heavily for it, and that's not going to change even if all the > underlying software is "free". Most fortune 500 companies have an explicit policy of keeping GPL'ed software out. They don't want to lose their patents, expose their business logic and business practices by doing so. I don't even think that this is anywhere close to reality. > The only programming market which would conceivably suffer a bit is > that of prepackaged, mass-produced, bloated, overpriced junk like MS > Windows and MS Office. Frankly, I have no problem with that scenario. If you talk to the man on the street, he'll tell you how MS outlook, inspite of Melissa and ILOVEYOU does a great job of getting work done. My personal view - free software is an act of philanthropy, tool for education, hobby for personal satisfaction and an ego booster for those who're good at it. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 0: 6:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 417AB37BC80 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 00:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 39951 invoked from network); 23 May 2000 07:06:14 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 23 May 2000 07:06:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 24871 invoked by uid 211); 23 May 2000 07:06:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:36:13 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000523123612.A24821@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522234412.A11711@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000522234412.A11711@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Mon, May 22, 2000 at 11:44:12PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The only programming market which would conceivably suffer a bit is > > that of prepackaged, mass-produced, bloated, overpriced junk like MS > > Windows and MS Office. Frankly, I have no problem with that scenario. > > If you talk to the man on the street, he'll tell you how MS outlook, > inspite of Melissa and ILOVEYOU does a great job of getting work done. First, I think it depends on which man on the street you pick. I know several who wouldn't say so -- they're just stuck with Outlook because their firm standardised on it. Second, are you suggesting that the world is a better place because of Outlook and its non-standard "extensions", even if you ignore the viruses? I think very few people would agree with you, on either side of the BSD/GPL fence; but because of the viruses, I find more and more "ordinary" people are taking a dislike to Microsoft's attitudes. Companies spent days just deleting emails and cleaning up their systems recently. It's the ordinary employee who suffers from it, not the management. > My personal view - free software is an act of philanthropy, tool for > education, hobby for personal satisfaction and an ego booster for > those who're good at it. And my personal view: it produces better software, whether BSD or GPL, and it gives you some control over the system -- which means both the ability to break it and the ability to fix it when it breaks. This view comes from actually using the stuff, not from philosophising about it. My absolute favourite single "application" program has to be TeX, and in second place is probably the Gimp. I'd even sacrifice some performance for control. I prefer BSD or linux to Digital Unix (which also we have here) not for performance reasons (its performance and stability are excellent) but because when there is a problem with it you're stuck. You're afraid even to experiment for fear of screwing up the license managers and stuff like that. For instance they wanted to charge some large amount for a Y2K fix, so we just decided to live without the fix -- the problems seem pretty minor. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 1:53: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A66337B53D for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 01:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mira1.cisco.com (mira1.cisco.com [171.71.212.196]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA27583 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 01:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (sjck-dial-gw5-219.cisco.com [10.19.238.220]) by mira1.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AAL00552; Tue, 23 May 2000 01:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <392A48AD.2E346279@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 02:00:29 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522234412.A11711@sharmas.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma wrote: > My personal view - free software is an act of philanthropy, tool for > education, hobby for personal satisfaction and an ego booster for > those who're good at it. > My view is that free software (specifically development tools) are wonderful empowering agents for professional developers. ( I could not care less about mass-appeal :-) Ever had to go begging a clueless pointy-haired type for approval to purchase a C compiler only to be refused? I've actually had this happen and been chastised afterwards for not delivering a dependent project on time. Thank heavens those days are behind us (for the most part). I'd rather see the ego boost thing discounted though. Overdeveloped egos are perhaps one of the most destructive forces in software development today, particularly within the free software movement. -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 5:12:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE22037B977 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 05:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA81398; Tue, 23 May 2000 14:12:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Arun Sharma Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 May 2000 14:12:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: Arun Sharma's message of "Mon, 22 May 2000 22:24:38 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma writes: > The claim that "for profit software" and "closed source software" are > different is not supported by market realities. Neither RMS nor ESR > have come up with a viable economic model which can support all the > programmers being supported by the current closed source software economy. Well, Eivind had a good one the other day: rank all programmers by ability, then take the bottom two-thirds out into the woods and shoot them. The remaining third will be a) delivered from having to spend most of their time fixing other people's crappy code and b) very motivated to stay on top of the profession, just in case we decide to do it all over again. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 8:43:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D70137B997 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 08:43:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23013; Tue, 23 May 2000 09:41:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000523094004.04506c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:41:26 -0600 To: Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:24 PM 5/22/2000, Arun Sharma wrote: >The claim that "for profit software" and "closed source software" are >different is not supported by market realities. Neither RMS nor ESR >have come up with a viable economic model which can support all the >programmers being supported by the current closed source software economy. Well said and absolutely correct. >I think the real benefits of open source are the elimination of >mediocre products with ridiculous price tags and in CS education. Actually, competition in the closed source market would do that too. I'm still hoping to see competition in that market rekindled. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 9:41:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ester.byggdok.se (ester.byggdok.se [193.10.7.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE6337B71F for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 09:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from plundis@ester.byggdok.se) Received: (from plundis@localhost) by ester.byggdok.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA32712; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:41:05 +0200 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <4.3.1.2.20000522125201.00e4be10@localhost> X-Attribution: Plundis Mail-Copies-To: poster From: Per Lundberg Date: 23 May 2000 18:41:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Mon, 22 May 2000 12:56:45 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070099 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.99) XEmacs/21.2 (Melpomene) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "BG" == Brett Glass writes: BG> The dig at FreeBSD was unfortunate. However, it was really BG> more of a dig at the C language (which truly IS a source of BG> serious bugs and security holes). It sure is. But there are things that can help. For example, this kind of error is *very* easy to spot if you use the help gcc can give you; namely -Werror. This makes all warnings errors, which (in my opinion, of course) is very good, since it makes people care about warnings. I mean, seriously, if you don't care about the warning in the first place, why didn't you use -w to suppress it? Just my two cents. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 10:11:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497A037B530 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 10:11:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA46948; Tue, 23 May 2000 10:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <392ABB6D.94B7C8B7@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:10:05 -0700 From: Doug Barton Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0508 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arun Sharma Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522234412.A11711@sharmas.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma wrote: > > (2) If all software was "free" or "opensource", the number of > > programming jobs would decrease. > > It's not the total number of jobs - it's the total amount of money to > be made, that defines the size of the economy. This is one of the fundamental flaws in most of the arguments put forth on this topic so far. There IS NO total amount of money to be made. The opportunity to expand the pie is always present, in the American economy anyway. The importance of this distinction cannot be overestimated. New technologies, new markets, new economies are being created every day, and radically reshaping the way we think about economics as a whole. Just look at the internet itself if you need an (incredibly obvious) example. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 11: 1:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E6737B82F for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25024; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:01:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000523115749.04536980@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:01:44 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <392ABB6D.94B7C8B7@gorean.org> References: <20000521131809.A6546@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000522170335.B94994@azazel.zer0.org> <20000523085510.A5994@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000523114956.A39397@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000522234412.A11711@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:10 AM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > This is one of the fundamental flaws in most of the arguments put forth >on this topic so far. There IS NO total amount of money to be made. The >opportunity to expand the pie is always present, Unfortunately, there is a flaw in THIS argument, too: it goes to the other extreme. While the pie can be enlarged, it is not infinitely expandable. The correct perspective lies somewhere in between the two extremes. And, unfortunately, it lies closer to the other extreme than to the one you promote. There is a definite limit to the rate at which the pie can grow, especially with the GPL actively eliminating opportunities for new ventures. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 12: 6:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E5A37B711 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:06:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:05:27 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:06:40 -0700 Message-ID: <001301bfc4ea$07143760$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <392ABB6D.94B7C8B7@gorean.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Live free or die" > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp that on license plates all day? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 12:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D964237B953 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:21:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (aylee.mrgoodbucks.com [209.145.93.143]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 15:15:34 -0400 Message-ID: <392ADA8C.8A8B7C5D@cstone.net> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:22:52 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <001301bfc4ea$07143760$021d85d1@youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > "Live free or die" > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp that on license > plates all day? I don't. If they agree with that motto, there are plenty of implements of destruction around a prison. Or, at least, TV and movies have led me to believe. :-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - All Around Geek "It must be difficult being such a visionary." "Not really. You just have to drink a lot." http://www.goats.com/archive/index.html?990420 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 16:31: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3290537B5C7 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 16:31:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49907; Tue, 23 May 2000 16:31:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:31:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <001301bfc4ea$07143760$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > "Live free or die" > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp that on license > plates all day? No, actually. -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 16:42:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9245437B513 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 16:42:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA49957; Tue, 23 May 2000 16:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:42:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523115749.04536980@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:10 AM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > > > This is one of the fundamental flaws in most of the arguments put forth > >on this topic so far. There IS NO total amount of money to be made. The > >opportunity to expand the pie is always present, > > Unfortunately, there is a flaw in THIS argument, too: it goes > to the other extreme. While the pie can be enlarged, it is not > infinitely expandable. Many brilliant economists would vehemently disagree with you. Chief among them is Arthur Laffer. > There is a definite limit to the rate at which the pie can grow, This is actually true, and Alan Greenspan has done a good job of keeping the rate of growth level. > especially > with the GPL actively eliminating opportunities for new ventures. You're flattering yourself if you think that the GPL is having _that_ significant an impact right now. There is just too much code out there right now that is not contaminated by it to work with. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 16:50:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435AE37B5DE for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 23 May 2000 16:49:10 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Doug Barton" Cc: Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:50:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bfc511$a9fd7820$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > "Live free or die" > > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp > > that on license plates all day? > No, actually. Can't you recognize a rhetorical question? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 17:11:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA4137B9ED for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA27539; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:11:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA2oayP1; Tue May 23 17:10:53 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02687; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:10:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005240010.RAA02687@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Manual Set To: keichii@bsdconspiracy.net Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:10:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000522201819.B56718@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C. Wu" at May 22, 2000 08:18:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I do not understand why we cannot have a friendly yet professional > sounding "auto-reply" message. For the average user, it is much > easier for them to understand the above mail than reading the > Sendmail bounce message. Professional sounding is all good, but > not at the price of clearity and easy-of-use. In this case, > can you write a message that is more concise, clear, and yet > still friendly to the average OE/Eudora/Outlook/Messenger-email-user? The sendmail bounces are RFC 1894 MIME DSNs. Using these has the advantages that users who do not do something foolish, like running a stupid mail client, can have the DSN interpreted for them by their mail client. This interpretation can include, but is not limited to, the mail client presenting the information in the locale specific language that the user prefers, without having to do something scruddy to the mail servers, like translating status messages into German because the mail server is located in Germany, even though the sender is sending an English message to an English speaking German (or vice versa). This is also the rationale for RFC2369 mailing list commands via "mailto:" URLs for help/unsubscribe/subscribe/post/owner/archive embedded in specially named headers that can be interpreted, and localized, by sufficiently clueful mail clients. Consider that a non-English speaker who was an Internet user would have some experience decoding RFC 1894 DSNs, but would have no clue whatsoever about how to decode the "friendly" postfix message. I hate programs that pretend to be converstational, particularly when they only speak English. P E R H A P S I F W E A L L T Y P E D L O U D L Y A N D S L O W L Y E N O U G H , W E W O U L D A L L B E A B L E T O U N D E R S T A N D E N G L I S H T E X T . . . Localization is _why_ we chose to implement a protocol, rather than some silly ass text message. MTAs could at least have the courtesy to conform to standards, which are there for a reason. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 17:15: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3E437B822 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06466; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:14:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGnaaIm; Tue May 23 17:14:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02837; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:14:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005240014.RAA02837@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:14:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), gsutter@zer0.org (Gregory Sutter), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000522213325.0446bc00@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at May 22, 2000 09:36:05 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, it's not. Creative works are very different from physical objects. Right. In the future, physical objects will be as cheap as the atoms required to assemble them, whereas create works will continue to have non-zero value... > And looking under the hood of a car doesn't give you the ability to > create unlimited numbers of identical cars, thereby depriving the > automobile manufacturer of any future reward from his work. Depends a lot on who's doing the looking, I think... otherwise why patents? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 17:22:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349C137B822 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA68944; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:22:28 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdpRu57a; Tue May 23 17:22:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03210; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:22:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005240022.RAA03210@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:22:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000522222438.A11092@sharmas.dhs.org> from "Arun Sharma" at May 22, 2000 10:24:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The distinction between free speech and free beer is bogus. If you can > pay Sun or Microsoft $1000 per line of code, they'll easily sell you the > rights to the code. You can GPL it and have free speech and they won't > have a problem with you. > > Their curtailing of your right to look at the code (!free speech) is > motivated by their desire to make money (!free beer). Therefore free > beer and free speech are not two entirely different concepts, with the > former being despicable and the latter being divine. Again, the analogy > between free speech and free software is flawed. "Free listening to > market research by a Merrill Lynch analyst" would be closer. I think that you are confusing the real "right to freedom of speech", as acknowledged (not granted) by the U.S. Constitution with the more and more frequently imagined "right to be heard". Just because you have a right to speech doesn't mean you have a right to a willing audience. > The claim that "for profit software" and "closed source software" are > different is not supported by market realities. Neither RMS nor ESR > have come up with a viable economic model which can support all the > programmers being supported by the current closed source software > economy. True enough. > I think the real benefits of open source are the elimination of > mediocre products with ridiculous price tags and in CS education. The main price tag in CS education is the grundle of fools who, having achieved their union cards (degrees) with a minimal expenditure of effort, are thus somehow ennobled, and deserving of joining the ranks of the professional software engineer. Even doctors are not granted this right by divine fiat; they must "pay their dues", one way or another, to prove that besides their degree, they have also acquired some amount of knowledge such that they will not frequently result in dead people. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 17:32:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E3A37BAA0 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10556; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:32:33 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdSgHdEa; Tue May 23 17:32:25 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03869; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:32:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005240032.RAA03869@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:32:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000201bfc511$a9fd7820$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at May 23, 2000 04:50:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Had to be done... > > > > "Live free or die" > > > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp > > > that on license plates all day? > > > No, actually. > > Can't you recognize a rhetorical question? No, actually. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 17:39:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23CC37B77A for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:39:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29721; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:39:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000523175904.0443caa0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:04:36 -0600 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000523115749.04536980@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:42 PM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > > Unfortunately, there is a flaw in THIS argument, too: it goes > > to the other extreme. While the pie can be enlarged, it is not > > infinitely expandable. > > Many brilliant economists would vehemently disagree with >you. Chief among them is Arthur Laffer. Sorry, but the more famous an economist is, the more likely it is that he represents a "religion" rather than realistic, proven theory. All systems have limits, and any statement to the contrary is absurd. > > There is a definite limit to the rate at which the pie can grow, > > This is actually true, and Alan Greenspan has done a good job of >keeping the rate of growth level. Not so. He hasn't stopped the foaming of the "Inernet souffle'" which is now about to fall rather hard and ungracefully. (Like a souffle', it's full of froth but has little substance.) > > especially > > with the GPL actively eliminating opportunities for new ventures. > > You're flattering yourself if you think that the GPL is having >_that_ significant an impact right now. Flattering "yourself?" How so? The fact is, alas, that the GPL is already killing many promising new markets for software. It used to be that VCs asked, "What will you do about Microsoft?" They're now asking, "What will you do about Stallman?" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 17:59:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D7737B855 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA50260; Tue, 23 May 2000 17:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 17:59:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <000201bfc511$a9fd7820$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > "Live free or die" > > > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp > > > that on license plates all day? > > > No, actually. > > Can't you recognize a rhetorical question? No, actually. -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18: 1: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C4F37BA9E for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:00:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA50268; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:00:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <200005240032.RAA03869@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 May 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Had to be done... > > > > > > > "Live free or die" > > > > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > > > > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp > > > > that on license plates all day? > > > > > No, actually. > > > > Can't you recognize a rhetorical question? > > No, actually. Gah! Should have read the rest of my mail. :) Oh well... GMTA. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18: 1:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0743637BB16 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:01:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:00:04 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Doug Barton" , Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:01:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfc51b$912fc8c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <200005240032.RAA03869@usr05.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Had to be done... Well, you ask a self-answering question, you get a self-questioning answer. DS > > > > > > "Live free or die" > > > > > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New > Hampshire > > > > > > Don't you feel sorry for the prisoners who have to stamp > > > > that on license plates all day? > > > > > No, actually. > > > > Can't you recognize a rhetorical question? > > No, actually. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18: 2:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEA837B5E8 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA50291; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523175904.0443caa0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:42 PM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, there is a flaw in THIS argument, too: it goes > > > to the other extreme. While the pie can be enlarged, it is not > > > infinitely expandable. > > > > Many brilliant economists would vehemently disagree with > >you. Chief among them is Arthur Laffer. > > Sorry, but the more famous an economist is, the more likely it > is that he represents a "religion" rather than realistic, proven > theory. All systems have limits, and any statement to the contrary > is absurd. Right. And man was never meant to fly, either. I realize that arguing this point with you is silly because you just don't have the background to understand how little about this topic you understand, so I won't try further. > > You're flattering yourself if you think that the GPL is having > >_that_ significant an impact right now. > > Flattering "yourself?" How so? See above. -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18: 3:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CC237B938 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA50296; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:03:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <000001bfc51b$912fc8c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > Had to be done... > > Well, you ask a self-answering question, you get a self-questioning answer. *rim shot* :) -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18:10:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE0E37B9A1 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00175; Tue, 23 May 2000 19:09:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000523184114.0413ced0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:44:16 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), gsutter@zer0.org (Gregory Sutter), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200005240014.RAA02837@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000522213325.0446bc00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:14 PM 5/23/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > And looking under the hood of a car doesn't give you the ability to > > create unlimited numbers of identical cars, thereby depriving the > > automobile manufacturer of any future reward from his work. > >Depends a lot on who's doing the looking, I think... otherwise why >patents? Patents are a bit different. With patents, the inventor is rewarded for not only opening the hood but telling everyone how he crafted what's inside. In return, he gets a limited monopoly on his new idea. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18:19:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ABD37BAD8 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00264; Tue, 23 May 2000 19:19:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:19:19 -0600 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000523175904.0443caa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:02 PM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > Right. And man was never meant to fly, either. I realize that >arguing this point with you is silly because you just don't have the >background to understand how little about this topic you understand, so I >won't try further. Sounds like a religious argument to me. Complete with "holier than thou" elitism and assertion without proof (sigh). Very typical of economists, and even more typical of political pseudo- economists. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18:25:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA2837B9A1 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA50378; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:25:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:02 PM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > > > Right. And man was never meant to fly, either. I realize that > >arguing this point with you is silly because you just don't have the > >background to understand how little about this topic you understand, so I > >won't try further. > > Sounds like a religious argument to me. Complete with "holier than thou" > elitism and assertion without proof (sigh). > Very typical of economists, and even more typical of political pseudo- > economists. > > --Brett Glass > -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 18:35: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05CA637BB16 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA50415; Tue, 23 May 2000 18:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:34:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:02 PM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > > > Right. And man was never meant to fly, either. I realize that > >arguing this point with you is silly because you just don't have the > >background to understand how little about this topic you understand, so I > >won't try further. > Sounds like a religious argument to me. Complete with "holier than thou" > elitism and assertion without proof (sigh). I started to respond to this, then thought better of it and hit the wrong key. So, I will simply say that I did at least make reference to a source for my position. You argued ad hominem against "famous economists" in general, then quoted "natural law" to support your position. Between the two of us I think I win narrowly on points. However my previous assertion stands. You don't know enough about this topic to understand how little you understand. I used to tutor economics, and learned the subject from some very talented professors. But my qualifications are really beside the point... you've proven in many prior instances that you're not interested in facts that don't agree with your world views, so it's not worth my time. My purpose in posting to this thread at all was merely to point out that there is another view, so that people who don't have a background in economics are not tempted to take the "There's only one pie, and it's always going to be the same size" argument seriously. > Very typical of economists, and even more typical of political pseudo- > economists. And now you're arguing ad hominem against me, which just goes to show that you've already lost so I won't belabor the point. :) -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 21:35:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD7937BBC0 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 21:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02181; Tue, 23 May 2000 22:35:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000523223327.042894c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:35:03 -0600 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:34 PM 5/23/2000, Doug Barton wrote: > I started to respond to this, then thought better of it and hit >the wrong key. So, I will simply say that I did at least make reference to >a source for my position. While at the same time launching an unwarranted ad hominem attack which cited dubious sources as justification. Sorry, no go. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 21:40:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 84F2337BBC6 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 21:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 45336 invoked from network); 24 May 2000 04:40:09 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 24 May 2000 04:40:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 29375 invoked by uid 211); 24 May 2000 04:40:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:10:06 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Doug Barton Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug@gorean.org on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 06:34:55PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton said on May 23, 2000 at 18:34:55: > On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > My purpose in posting to this thread at all was merely to point > out that there is another view, so that people who don't have a background > in economics are not tempted to take the "There's only one pie, and it's > always going to be the same size" argument seriously. And this, by the way, is the archetypical communist argument. They want to redistribute wealth because they think you can only become rich at the expense of someone else. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 22:50:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56F737BBE7 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 22:50:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA17442; Tue, 23 May 2000 22:47:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:47:31 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000523224731.A16545@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from Rahul Siddharthan on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:10:06AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:10:06AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Doug Barton said on May 23, 2000 at 18:34:55: > > On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > My purpose in posting to this thread at all was merely to point > > out that there is another view, so that people who don't have a background > > in economics are not tempted to take the "There's only one pie, and it's > > always going to be the same size" argument seriously. > > And this, by the way, is the archetypical communist argument. They > want to redistribute wealth because they think you can only become > rich at the expense of someone else. I don't have a formal training in economics. But common sense tells me that if everyone multiplies their wealth by 100x, the world is essentially unchanged and the economy would've expanded by 100x. Strategic inflection points, as Andy Grove famously called them, don't happen everyday. I find the communist bashing and repeated references to their stupidity a bit amusing. Even Meyer's article had references to it. After reading some of these discussions, "You're a communist", sounds worse tha "you're a filthy dimwit bastard, with no morality" :) Stallman, Linus and every major personality seems to be afraid of the term, even when they share some of the same philosophy. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2574952,00.html BTW, Mr Leibovitch makes the mistake of equating open source with GPL in his reference to Pedro's Daemonnews article. Slashdot gets away with it repeatedly. Does anyone have good suggestions to make the distinction clear to the masses ? Web page button ? gplisnotopensource.org ? -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 23:43:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 648ED37BA12 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 23:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 45888 invoked from network); 24 May 2000 06:43:08 -0000 Received: from theory2.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.21) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 24 May 2000 06:43:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 5062 invoked by uid 211); 24 May 2000 06:43:31 -0000 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:13:31 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000524121330.C5033@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000523224731.A16545@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000523224731.A16545@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 10:47:31PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.5-15 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma said on May 23, 2000 at 22:47:31: > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:10:06AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > BTW, Mr Leibovitch makes the mistake of equating open source with GPL > in his reference to Pedro's Daemonnews article. Slashdot gets away > with it repeatedly. Does anyone have good suggestions to make the > distinction clear to the masses ? Web page button ? gplisnotopensource.org ? This is part of the general problem that BSD has too low a profile and the leading lights are traditionally not very vocal about their software. But this seems to be changing now. More power to the advocacy team... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 23 23:58: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FB837BA98 for ; Tue, 23 May 2000 23:57:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA53315; Tue, 23 May 2000 23:57:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <392B7D73.46990B2A@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:57:55 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0523 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000523224731.A16545@sharmas.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma wrote: > > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:10:06AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Doug Barton said on May 23, 2000 at 18:34:55: > > > On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > My purpose in posting to this thread at all was merely to point > > > out that there is another view, so that people who don't have a background > > > in economics are not tempted to take the "There's only one pie, and it's > > > always going to be the same size" argument seriously. > > > > And this, by the way, is the archetypical communist argument. They > > want to redistribute wealth because they think you can only become > > rich at the expense of someone else. > > I don't have a formal training in economics. But common sense tells me > that if everyone multiplies their wealth by 100x, the world is > essentially unchanged and the economy would've expanded by 100x. The problem is, "common sense" rarely applies to economics. What you're saying is (effectively) true, but totally meaningless, since it has no application in the real world. In the real world, "wealth" moves from one economy, one country, one place to another. One of the reasons the pie isn't always the same size is that the definitions of what is valuable change as time goes on. Take the stock market for example. The value of any given stock changes on a day to day basis, but the overall trend of the market is upwards over a sufficiently long period of time. This happens for a lot of reasons, one of the more significant of which is the entry of new companies into the market. > Strategic inflection points, as Andy Grove famously called them, don't > happen everyday. > > I find the communist bashing and repeated references to their stupidity > a bit amusing. Even Meyer's article had references to it. After reading > some of these discussions, "You're a communist", sounds worse tha > "you're a filthy dimwit bastard, with no morality" :) Stallman, Linus > and every major personality seems to be afraid of the term, even when > they share some of the same philosophy. Well, I agree that bashing them is rarely fruitful, but from the american standpoint, it is (for the most part) a perjorative term. The whole communist agenda goes against the traditional protestant work ethic that americans are inculcated with. Another reason I would consider it perjorative is that following a communist philosophy is just plain silly. It's been proven repeatedly to be unrealistic and impossible to adhere to on a large scale. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 0:32:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CFF337BC01 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 00:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 46081 invoked by uid 211); 24 May 2000 07:31:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:01:27 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Doug Barton Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000524130124.B46038@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000523224731.A16545@sharmas.dhs.org> <392B7D73.46990B2A@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <392B7D73.46990B2A@gorean.org>; from DougB@gorean.org on Tue, May 23, 2000 at 11:57:55PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton said on May 23, 2000 at 23:57:55: > > > > My purpose in posting to this thread at all was merely to point > > > > out that there is another view, so that people who don't have a background > > > > in economics are not tempted to take the "There's only one pie, and it's > > > > always going to be the same size" argument seriously. > > > > > > And this, by the way, is the archetypical communist argument. They > > > want to redistribute wealth because they think you can only become > > > rich at the expense of someone else. > > > > I don't have a formal training in economics. But common sense tells me > > that if everyone multiplies their wealth by 100x, the world is > > essentially unchanged and the economy would've expanded by 100x. > > The problem is, "common sense" rarely applies to economics. What you're > saying is (effectively) true, but totally meaningless, since it has no > application in the real world. In the real world, "wealth" moves from > one economy, one country, one place to another. And nobody is talking about multiplying "everyone's wealth" in a passive sense -- that's like printing lots of paper money and distributing it, it will lead to inflation and everything will level out eventually. We're talking about actually creating valuable objects -- or adding value to existing objects, existing businesses, etc -- out of your own hard work, but without financial investment on your part. For instance (to return to the topic of this thread) you write a nice program. Some rich guy thinks it will be useful to him and buys it. You are now richer, but the rich guy is not poorer -- he's lost some money but gained something else which is useful to him, and which may well save him money as time goes by (while also benefiting his customers). The total amount of "wealth" in the world has increased; the pie has grown. The communist fallacy (and danger) is in denying that such a thing is possible at all -- in suggesting that you can get rich only by robbing the rich people, not by working hard yourself. The argument was whether this mechanism of getting rich will be destroyed if all software were free. My argument was that there will always be people willing to pay for work useful to them, and publicly archived "free" software can no more meet a company's software needs than shrink-wrapped software alone can. I can think of a lot of interesting things that would happen if all software were "free" in the FSF sense, but a shortage of jobs is not one of them. Not even a decrease in salaries. The rich guy above will quite likely hear of your software, give it a spin (without fear of being called a pirate), and then hire you to fine-tune it for him. When RMS wrote those words about being paid less he didn't foresee the current IT boom, particularly the demand for computerisation of businesses, customised software, embedded software, and so on. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 8:21:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE70B37BCB6 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 08:21:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06740; Wed, 24 May 2000 09:20:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000524091648.047b25c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 09:20:32 -0600 To: Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: Doug Barton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000523224731.A16545@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:47 PM 5/23/2000, Arun Sharma wrote: >I don't have a formal training in economics. But common sense tells me >that if everyone multiplies their wealth by 100x, the world is >essentially unchanged and the economy would've expanded by 100x. And the wealth isn't wealth anymore. ;-) >I find the communist bashing and repeated references to their stupidity >a bit amusing. Even Meyer's article had references to it. After reading >some of these discussions, "You're a communist", sounds worse tha >"you're a filthy dimwit bastard, with no morality" :) Stallman, Linus >and every major personality seems to be afraid of the term, even when >they share some of the same philosophy. Actually, the Communist leaders were quite smart and very good at exploiting others. There's an old saying: "Under Communism, man exploits man, but under capitalism it's the other way around." Stallman merely uses some of the misleading rhetoric that the Communists used. He does this because it has historically proven to be effective. I am convinced that he would use WHATEVER would work, just so it hurt the people who he mistakenly believes once hurt him. (His crusade, if you know his history, is really a personal vendetta.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 10:55:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E544E37B743 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 10:55:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20708; Wed, 24 May 2000 20:55:10 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:55:10 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? Message-ID: <20000524205510.A20671@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> <20000521160901.A215@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000521125607.041b0100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000521125607.041b0100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:00:51PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 21, 2000 at 01:00:51PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >properties are concerned, the difference between a chess game and > >a music composition is perhaps of a degree but not of a kind. The > >statute clearly gives preferential treatment to kinds of intellectual > >activity the society feels to be especially worth encouraging. > > The entire purpose of copyrights and patents is to encourage intellectual > activity. And they work for that purpose. Exactly. So if someone (like Stallman) claims that abolishing copyright would encourage intellectual activity better than retaining them (which is the reason why he would've liked to see it abolished), referring to his views as "evil" is obviously misguided. Wrong -- yes. > A chess game is an interesting case in some would say that the game > was an improvisational performance, sort of like an improvisational > dance. On the other hand, the moves in a chess game are also functional, > and copyright specifically does NOT cover items that are functional. Like code, right? Or are you trying to say that computer source code isn't functional? > creative part cannot be copied.) Moves in a chess game ARE functional > (the function being to beat the opponent), and some are even provably > optimal. So, they might not be protected. Well, source code IS functional, and some of it is certainly provably optimal. So, it might not be protected. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 13:20:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B7237B9EE for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.64.163.224]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000524202040.FVOK18275.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com> for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:20:40 -0700 Message-ID: <392C3B6A.E729A268@interlog.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:28:27 -0400 From: Paul Griffith Organization: CDG Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: NetMax FileServer References: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> <20000521160901.A215@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000521125607.041b0100@localhost> <20000524205510.A20671@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone here used or worked with NetMax (http://www.netmax.com) FreeBSD based fileserver ? Paul Griffith To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 13:40:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A2937BC59 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 13:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA83951; Wed, 24 May 2000 16:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:40:22 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Paul Griffith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NetMax FileServer In-Reply-To: <392C3B6A.E729A268@interlog.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 May 2000, Paul Griffith wrote: > Has anyone here used or worked with NetMax (http://www.netmax.com) > FreeBSD based fileserver ? YES! Excellent product. It doesn't get any better. Highly recommended. A++++ Go buy one right now! :-) ============================================================================= -Chris Watson (316) 326-3862 | FreeBSD Consultant, FreeBSD Geek Work: scanner@jurai.net | Open Systems Inc., Wellington, Kansas Home: scanner@deceptively.shady.org | http://open-systems.net ============================================================================= WINDOWS: "Where do you want to go today?" LINUX: "Where do you want to go tommorow?" BSD: "Are you guys coming or what?" ============================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 16:53:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9440037BDA6 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 16:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17110; Wed, 24 May 2000 16:53:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAw9aqvH; Wed May 24 16:53:24 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08949; Wed, 24 May 2000 16:53:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005242353.QAA08949@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 23:53:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Barton" at May 23, 2000 06:02:30 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Many brilliant economists would vehemently disagree with > > >you. Chief among them is Arthur Laffer. > > > > Sorry, but the more famous an economist is, the more likely it > > is that he represents a "religion" rather than realistic, proven > > theory. All systems have limits, and any statement to the contrary > > is absurd. > > Right. And man was never meant to fly, either. I realize that > arguing this point with you is silly because you just don't have the > background to understand how little about this topic you understand, so I > won't try further. Unfortunately, Brett answered an "appeal to authority", which is an invalid form of logical argument, with an "ad hominim", which is another invalid form of logical argument. Brett's point, however is correct: all systems have limits; he just didn't make that point very well. I personally don't believe that the economy (or life, for that matter) is a zero-sum game. It is a positive-sum game. From a pure games theoretic perspective, however, it can't possibly be an infinite-sum game, since that ignores the observed physical universe and the second law of thermodynamics (i.e. if it were an infinite sum game, then the sum total would encompass everything, and that includes entropy, which makes it less than infinite sum, by definition). I have never really understood the idea of the chairman of the U.S Federal Reserve bank raising interest rates "because the economy is running too hot". There may be good reasons for artificially braking the economy from where it would go in an otherwise unregulated system, but I haven't ever seen any math to tell me why where it would go in an otherwise unregulated system, at least for the interest rate constraint, would be an undesirable place. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 17:51:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F24337B674 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 17:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06902; Wed, 24 May 2000 17:51:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAT3aiDn; Wed May 24 17:51:38 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10662; Wed, 24 May 2000 17:51:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005250051.RAA10662@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:51:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: DougB@gorean.org (Doug Barton), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000524130124.B46038@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 24, 2000 01:01:27 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The argument was whether this mechanism of getting rich will be > destroyed if all software were free. My argument was that there will > always be people willing to pay for work useful to them, and publicly > archived "free" software can no more meet a company's software needs > than shrink-wrapped software alone can. Significantly, Whistle has defacto become an Open Source center within IBM. IBM has this concept of "Architect", which really means "consultant who is knowledgable about IBM technology and can describe how it can be integrated to produce a problem soloution". From this perspective, Whistle contains "Open Source Architects", who are familiar with the available Open Source technology, and can describe how it can be integrated to produce a problem soloution. Certainly not all commercial shrink-wrap software, nor all Open Source software, is directly applicable to producing soloutions to any but the most trivial problems, taken in a very narrow context. Thus "Architects" of either sort have significant commercial value. But these "Architects" do not themselves produce new, unique, or valuable components which can then be integrated as parts of soloutions to new problems. And therein lies the connundrum of Open Source. In several projects now, I have acted at least partially, but increasingly, in the role of an "Open Source Architect", with my current project being almost entirely that, with the only code exception being, so far, schema definition. In this, I have had at least significant, and, not to toot my own horn, perhaps even incredible commercial value. I fully expect that I will have to take up the code-trowel at some point on this current project, and I will enjoy doing that, since I will have thought everything out before writing code (my personal best is currently 28,000 lines of C++ code in just two weeks of elapsed time, with two bugs [one typo, one uncaught exception in a rare case, both one-line fixes] reported so far after one year; yes, obviously, I unit and integration test). It will be like a vacation: no real brain work involved. > I can think of a lot of interesting things that would happen if all > software were "free" in the FSF sense, but a shortage of jobs is > not one of them. Not even a decrease in salaries. The value of a job does not lie solely in the salary and other tangible/fungible benefits. Indeed, many software engineers claim that there is no value whatsoever in these measures, since getting another software engineering job is as simple as getting on highway 101, driving until a coin flip tells you that you should "take this exit", and pulling into the parking lot of the first .com company you see, going in, and presenting your C.V.; if you are not a poser, you now have a new job, with stock options, probably a salary increase, and, if you drove the right direction, probably a shorter daily commute. If you want to be picky, it's a matter of hours or days, depending on how picky you are, and how fast you can read web pages combined with how well you can run a search engine. A recent survey of software engineers who posted their resumes on "monster.com" resulted in the statistic that the majority of them were looking for work which was interesting and challenging (not just challenging, so that lets out the "Welcome to the comapny; you are now only 6 weeks behind schedule!" crisis-management jobs). > The rich guy above will quite likely hear of your software, give > it a spin (without fear of being called a pirate), No problem... > and then hire you to fine-tune it for him. And _here_ we have the problem. This is neither long term interesting nor challenging, unless you are very happy in your cog spaced hole, or your work was not very inspired to begin with. The ultimate result of "if all software were ``free'' in an FSF sense", in my opinion, is that there would be a tiny amount of publically or philanthropically funded research, and the vast majority of the "available work" would fall into the categories "maintenance programming" or "glue code". Commercial organizations simply _will not_ provide capital outlay for things which they can not amortize the outlay, with a sufficient ROI to match the time value of money that they are giving up by investing there instead of elsewhere. To shorten that: "Money Talks; Bullsh_t Walks". You may be highly paid for this, but it would be fairly obvious and trivial, and not very intellectually taxing. You would not be in a position, really, to grow professionally. I maintain that the current boom in software engineering is because of the creative and intelligent people. When it no longer takes creativity and/or intelligence, they will go elsewhere, and so will the boom. RMS's current position is that he is philanthropically funded by such things as his "Genius Grant" and similar contributions based on his proported intellectual munificence. I suppose this is what allows him to so zealously hold the views which he holds: he's got his, so why do you need yours? If you're so good, why, you'd have a "Genius Grant", too. > When RMS wrote those words about being paid less he didn't > foresee the current IT boom, particularly the demand for > computerisation of businesses, customised software, embedded > software, and so on. Whether he saw it or not is irrelevant to the fact that the vast majority of people now engaged in creative, enterprising, and perhaps even brilliant work, would be reduced to the status of job-shop employees, like window installers and other non-exempt professions. The reason the U.S. exempted most information workers, and software engineers in particular, was a result of a study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Labor to determine whether or not more than 50% of the jobs time was spent in a creative act, or whether it was rote work. FYI, I have participated in this survey both times that it has been run in the last two decades (feel free to blame me in part for long hours, so long as you also credit me in part for your incentive stock options). Perhaps it will come to this, and I will have to return to my first passion, theoretical high energy and solid state physics, or move on to the surface physics of molecular nanotechnology; but don't believe that I will not because of the money I can get prostituting my intellect in what I view would be worthless and useless tasks that some idiot with a skewed view of what is important is willing to pay a lot of money to get done, and some idiot brought about because of his skewed view on software somehow being shackled, enslaved, and in need of protection by the software moral equivalent Amnesty International. RMS might believe that the only permissable commercial software world lives to debug his code for him and other people in the cabal of a chosen few permitted to write new code because of philantropy, but I do not. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 17:58:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10C6237B674 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 17:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere (HSE-MTL-ppp4834.qc.sympatico.ca [209.226.108.17]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11616; Wed, 24 May 2000 21:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA79054; Wed, 24 May 2000 20:58:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:58:15 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Terry Lambert Cc: Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> References: <200005242353.QAA08949@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <200005242353.QAA08949@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:53:19PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:53:19PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > physical universe and the second law of thermodynamics (i.e. if > it were an infinite sum game, then the sum total would encompass > everything, and that includes entropy, which makes it less than > infinite sum, by definition). I know of now theory that says an infinite sum must encompass everything. -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 18: 1:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F4737BE8C for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mira1.cisco.com (mira1.cisco.com [171.71.212.196]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA05716 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (sjck-dial-gw5-198.cisco.com [10.19.238.199]) by mira1.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AAO05154; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <392C7D17.359FD8E7@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:08:39 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <200005242353.QAA08949@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: [snipped] > I have never really understood the idea of the chairman of the > U.S Federal Reserve bank raising interest rates "because the > economy is running too hot". There may be good reasons for > artificially braking the economy from where it would go in an > otherwise unregulated system, but I haven't ever seen any math > to tell me why where it would go in an otherwise unregulated > system, at least for the interest rate constraint, would be an > undesirable place. > You forgot about the chicken bones they toss around to help decide these matters :-) For you conspiracy theorists out there, several reports are in that GeeDubya wins big in November if the economy tanks. It's well known that Mr Greenspan is a staunch Republican. IMHO, far too much power rests at the Federal Reserve Bank. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 18:20:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016F337B6F8 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:19:24 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , "Doug Barton" Cc: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: The Ethics of Free Software Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:20:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200005242353.QAA08949@usr05.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > I have never really understood the idea of the chairman of the > U.S Federal Reserve bank raising interest rates "because the > economy is running too hot". There may be good reasons for > artificially braking the economy from where it would go in an > otherwise unregulated system, but I haven't ever seen any math > to tell me why where it would go in an otherwise unregulated > system, at least for the interest rate constraint, would be an > undesirable place. I must admit that this has never been satisfactorily explained to me either. But the gist of it is supposedly: 1) Prices are the result of supply and demand. Not just the supply and demand of the good, but also the supply and demand of money. If the amount of available money increases, then all prices can increase. This is inflation. 2) There are several ways the effective supply of money can go up. One way is if money moves faster. That is, money you stuff in a mattress isn't inflationary but money that you move around is. 3) An increase in the interest rate decreases the rate at which money moves. People are more likely to leave money where it is than move it because: A) if it's in a bank, they're making more money leaving it there, and B) people are less likely to borrow money because it costs them more to do so. The term "running to hot" means that money is changing hands very rapidly. The risk is allegedly that this will result in inflation. Raising the interest rate slows this process. At least, that's how it's been explained to me. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 18:38:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2A737B68F for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA44862; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:37:31 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd3xiYqa; Wed May 24 18:37:26 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12207; Wed, 24 May 2000 18:37:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software To: vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:37:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) In-Reply-To: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> from "Tim Vanderhoek" at May 24, 2000 08:58:15 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 11:53:19PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > physical universe and the second law of thermodynamics (i.e. if > > it were an infinite sum game, then the sum total would encompass > > everything, and that includes entropy, which makes it less than > > infinite sum, by definition). > > I know of now theory that says an infinite sum must encompass > everything. Which order of infinity are you thinking of? I'm betting it's the wrong one. Consider that for wealth to exist, it must be accounted, and there are a finite number of particles in the universe. Now consider if we use them all to account wealth... Even with any notational mechanism you choose, you will eventually run out of bits; and that's not counting a "wealth owner ID field". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 19:21:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts1.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273A337BBBF for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 19:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([209.226.108.17]) by tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000525022104.FJUJ15500.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:21:04 -0400 Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA81300; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:20:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:20:53 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Terry Lambert Cc: Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000524222053.A80883@mad> References: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 01:37:24AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 01:37:24AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Consider that for wealth to exist, it must be accounted, and > there are a finite number of particles in the universe. Now > consider if we use them all to account wealth... Even with any > notational mechanism you choose, you will eventually run out of > bits; and that's not counting a "wealth owner ID field". The sentences that I deleted from my original message before posting it were "To even discuss an infinite sum game economy, it is necessary to first assume an infinite available universe. You must then show that the economy is not constrained to a finite level." We seem to have suffered a misunderstanding: I viewed implicit in the statement re: "infinite-sum game" the same, but inverted, assumption you were using to disprove the statement. However, that particular misunderstanding cleared, the quoted paragraph now leaves my interest piqued, albiet only slightly. :-) The universe must have some mechanism to remember time. Clearly the past is different from the present. Is the amount of time that the universe can remember finite? Or, rephrased, the same question: "Are there a finite or an infinite number of states in which the universe can be?" I know of no evidence that space is quantized. This suggests an infinite number of possible states. This in turn suggests that a notational mechanism can be chosen such that infinite wealth can be accounted. However, it seems that a certain uncertainty principle should come into play here somewhere. Perhaps a notational mechanism can be chosen to account for infinite wealth. However, for an arbitrary notational mechanism, we are not guaranteed to have any way to read a person's associated wealth data. There is also an implicit assumption in rephrasing the question from step #2 into that in step #3, namely that the universe can remember time only through mechanisms that transform passage of time into physical changes. -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 19:34:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3ACD37BCD3 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 19:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere (HSE-MTL-ppp4834.qc.sympatico.ca [209.226.108.17]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA22361; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA81378; Wed, 24 May 2000 22:34:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:34:03 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000524223403.B80883@mad> References: <200005242353.QAA08949@usr05.primenet.com> <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 06:20:37PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 06:20:37PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > The term "running to hot" means that money is changing hands > very rapidly. The risk is allegedly that this will result in > inflation. Raising the interest rate slows this process. Moreover, that investment is too high. If you want to look at it from a meta level, it means that you are below the natural unemployment level. This in turn can sometimes cause a recesion because the unemployment level must eventually return to its natural level (or higher) and when it does so, it can cause people to expect a recession. Once people, especially investors, expect a recession, it occurs. Money's velocity is a large factor in causing the unemployment level to drop too low, so it's not an unfair statement. However, I suspect money velocity tends to vary more between different economies than it varies between recession and boom. One can try to argue that some of the psychology has changed as sources of investment change. But really... -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 24 20:12:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 51A1E37B7D7 for ; Wed, 24 May 2000 20:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 25138 invoked from network); 25 May 2000 03:12:32 -0000 Received: from du138.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.138) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 25 May 2000 03:12:32 -0000 Message-ID: <392C5F8D.198A6D2B@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:02:37 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: No X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why are people against GNU? WAS Re: 5.0 already? References: <20000514023000.A16663@happy.checkpoint.com> <3.0.6.32.20000513192827.00895a10@mail85.pair.com> <20000514040731.B17455@happy.checkpoint.com> <391E27DD.320D4BBF@mail.ptd.net> <20000514024308.A57423@sasami.jurai.net> <392475F3.513EE781@mail.ptd.net> <20000520185544.A47143@happy.checkpoint.com> <39270B29.D09AA59D@mail.ptd.net> <20000521160901.A215@happy.checkpoint.com> <4.3.1.2.20000521125607.041b0100@localhost> <20000524205510.A20671@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Well, source code IS functional, and some of it is certainly provably > optimal. So, it might not be protected. The statute specifically provides for the copyrighting of code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 0:31: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E5F737BB4F for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 00:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 49099 invoked from network); 25 May 2000 07:30:25 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 25 May 2000 07:30:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 4394 invoked by uid 211); 25 May 2000 07:30:25 -0000 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:00:25 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Doug Barton , Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000525130024.A4324@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000524130124.B46038@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005250051.RAA10662@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005250051.RAA10662@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 12:51:34AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We seem to have moved from "can software jobs/salaries survive in a free-software world" to "can software jobs remain interesting and challenging in a free software world". My take on that is that, in any profession, you can do interesting and inspired work and be paid adequately for it if you're good; or you can sacrifice some freedom and creativity but be paid huge amounts. Only a few achieve both, total job satisfaction and stratospheric pay packets; they tend to be the sort who enjoy management-like positions, or else be so good at what they do that they can demand any salary they want *and* be aggressive enough to make such demands and cut the best deals for themselves. My impression is that the software world is no different. The majority of software engineers (the people Arun was worrying about) treat it as a routine job. A lot of creative people choose to stick around in universities or in low-key system administration posts, so that they can spend most of their time doing what they want to do while earning a decent living. The people who have both the talent and the drive to make it big financially while enjoying their work -- I think they'll take care of themselves somehow. There aren't so many such people in the world and there are always places where they can fit in. > > The rich guy above will quite likely hear of your software, give > > it a spin (without fear of being called a pirate), > > No problem... > > > > and then hire you to fine-tune it for him. > > And _here_ we have the problem. This is neither long term > interesting nor challenging, unless you are very happy in your > cog spaced hole, or your work was not very inspired to begin > with. If you're that good, I think there are at least two things you can do: (1) Ignore his offer since you're getting more interesting offers with good pay. He'll find someone else, perhaps not of your talents, but the source code is there and there should be somebody out there to fix it for him. (2) Take his offer, since you're getting paid well for a minimal effort on your part, and use the money to subsidise your real interests. (Perhaps other software projects, perhaps music or foreign languages or whatever you want to do.) In practice I think you'll often be asked to write non-trivial additional features rather than just answer "how do I do this" questions. That could be both interesting and challenging. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 1: 2:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE7737BDFB; Thu, 25 May 2000 01:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA87255; Thu, 25 May 2000 01:02:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:02:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes In-Reply-To: <20000525030514.A86566@mad> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 May 2000, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > I think this one was better off as it was: > > > > -For large values of one, one equals two, for small values of two. > > +For large values of one and small values of two, one equals two. > > Sure, if you want. I found that it took so long for me to parse the > convoluted sentence structure that the punch line simply had no > meaning anymore. But some people parse better than me. It reminds me of a line from _Endymion_ by Dan Simmons: "And if we had some ham, we could make a ham and cheese sandwich," said Father Captain de Soya, "if we had any cheese." Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 8:16:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15CD37C54D for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 08:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21712 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 25 May 2000 08:16:23 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:16:23 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000525081623.A21680@sharmas.dhs.org> References: <20000524130124.B46038@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200005250051.RAA10662@usr05.primenet.com> <20000525130024.A4324@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <20000525130024.A4324@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from Rahul Siddharthan on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 01:00:25PM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 01:00:25PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > My take on that is that, in any profession, you can do interesting and > inspired work and be paid adequately for it if you're good; or you can > sacrifice some freedom and creativity but be paid huge amounts. Only > a few achieve both, total job satisfaction and stratospheric pay > packets; Not everyone is looking for stratospheric pay. I just don't want Stallman to decide when I'm getting paid too much :) > My impression is that the software world is no different. The > majority of software engineers (the people Arun was worrying about) > treat it as a routine job. A lot of creative people choose to > stick around in universities or in low-key system administration > posts, so that they can spend most of their time doing what they want > to do while earning a decent living. There are other ways one can spend time on interesting work - achieve financial independence. A lot of people in the silicon valley do just that. > The people who have both the talent and the drive to make it big > financially while enjoying their work -- I think they'll take care > of themselves somehow. There aren't so many such people in the world > and there are always places where they can fit in. Those are also the people with high creative energy and in Stallman's dream world, software will lose them to other fields. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 9: 1:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E6337C725; Thu, 25 May 2000 09:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA93091; Thu, 25 May 2000 09:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <392D4E1C.809DA18E@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:00:28 -0700 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Thu, 25 May 2000, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > I think this one was better off as it was: > > > > > > -For large values of one, one equals two, for small values of two. > > > +For large values of one and small values of two, one equals two. I always liked a variant on this, I think it went : Two plus two equals five, given sufficiently large values of two. > > > > Sure, if you want. I found that it took so long for me to parse the > > convoluted sentence structure that the punch line simply had no > > meaning anymore. But some people parse better than me. > > It reminds me of a line from _Endymion_ by Dan Simmons: > > "And if we had some ham, we could make a ham and cheese sandwich," said > Father Captain de Soya, "if we had any cheese." > > Kris -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 9:10:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B5637C761 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA31334; Thu, 25 May 2000 19:08:01 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:08:01 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000525190801.A31297@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 01:37:24AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 01:37:24AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Consider that for wealth to exist, it must be accounted, and > there are a finite number of particles in the universe. We don't actually know that. Moreover, it's possible that the number is finite but expandable without a higher bound. Either way you could store potentially unlimited amount of information. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 9:16:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1427637C7B1 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 09:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA31369; Thu, 25 May 2000 19:15:52 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:15:52 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-ID: <20000525191552.B31297@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> <20000524222053.A80883@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000524222053.A80883@mad>; from vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:20:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:20:53PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > The universe must have some mechanism to remember time. Why? > Clearly the > past is different from the present. Does it? And if it does, maybe the difference is merely local? > Or, rephrased, the same question: "Are there a finite or an infinite > number of states in which the universe can be?" > > I know of no evidence that space is quantized. > > This suggests an infinite number of possible states. An infinitely divisible space won't save you because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. To distinguish between two very close positions of a particle, you will have to be at such colossal ignorance about its momentum that there will be no way you could control it. Thus the universe might have an infinite number of possible states but you won't be able to effectively account for them ;) However, there's yet another possibility: a finite number of particles suffices in an expanding universe. You'll be able to store information as distances between particles, and as the distances will grow, your available number of bits will grow. However, the speed of computation will be slowing down all the time, because you'll have to fly throughout your universe back and forth to measure the distance. I vaguely recall an article which talked about implementing a universal Turing machine based on such a scheme, with a finite number of particles. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 9:26: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA6C37C7F5; Thu, 25 May 2000 09:26:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA91809; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:25:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Joseph Scott Cc: Kris Kennaway , Tim Vanderhoek , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes References: <392D4E1C.809DA18E@owp.csus.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 May 2000 18:25:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: Joseph Scott's message of "Thu, 25 May 2000 09:00:28 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Scott writes: > Two plus two equals five, given sufficiently large values of two. See the entry on random numbers in the Jargon File. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 10: 7:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDBC37B601 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 10:07:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA69962; Thu, 25 May 2000 10:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <392D5DE7.FB5A9918@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:07:51 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0523 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I have never really understood the idea of the chairman of the > > U.S Federal Reserve bank raising interest rates "because the > > economy is running too hot". There may be good reasons for > > artificially braking the economy from where it would go in an > > otherwise unregulated system, but I haven't ever seen any math > > to tell me why where it would go in an otherwise unregulated > > system, at least for the interest rate constraint, would be an > > undesirable place. > > I must admit that this has never been satisfactorily explained to me > either. But the gist of it is supposedly: > > 1) Prices are the result of supply and demand. Not just the supply and > demand of the good, but also the supply and demand of money. If the amount > of available money increases, then all prices can increase. This is > inflation. That's mostly right. The difference between inflation and economic growth is how prices increase in relationship to the money supply. When you add some other factors in you get what they call "buying power," which is what consumers perceive directly. To simplify things fairly dramatically, if you're making more money this year than you did last, and you can also _buy_ more this year than you did last, that's economic growth. If you're making more this year, and you can buy less, or roughly the same that's inflation. The problem with this topic, like so much of economics is that a lot of what's being measured is highly subjective. Someone else made the point that if enough people believe a recession is going to happen, it's going to happen. That's true of a lot of things... in fact in some ways it's true of our entire economy, ever since the end of the gold standard. Money is valuable just because we believe it's valuable. Or, in the immortal words of Douglas Adams, "... most of the people ... were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhapy." From "So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish." Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 10:18:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F24137B6C9 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 10:18:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA22278; Thu, 25 May 2000 10:18:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:18:16 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200005251718.KAA22278@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In muc.lists.freebsd.chat, you wrote: > The term "running to hot" means that money is changing hands very > rapidly. > The risk is allegedly that this will result in inflation. Raising the > interest rate slows this process. > > At least, that's how it's been explained to me. If the inflation is higher than expected, people who lend money for 30 years at low interest rates lose. And that does some pretty bad things to the economy :) -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 11:28:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts3.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1FE37B5A0; Thu, 25 May 2000 11:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost.nowhere ([209.226.183.11]) by tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000525182806.WKJX25676.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@localhost.nowhere>; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:28:06 -0400 Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA94281; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:27:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:27:18 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Warner Losh Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes Message-ID: <20000525142717.B94114@mad> References: <20000525030514.A86566@mad> <200005250438.VAA63650@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000525030514.A86566@mad> <200005251738.LAA85378@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <200005251738.LAA85378@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:38:30AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:38:30AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > people actually say it: > two plus two is five for sufficiently large values of 2 or > small values of five. No, it does not mirror how people actually say it: -- For large values of one, one equals two, for small values of two. -- If I had fixed it to mirror how peope actually say it, it would read: -- One equals two, for sufficiently large values of one or sufficiently small values of two. -- The way it will read, which everybody seems to like, is convoluted to barely inside the boundaries of English. And don't blame that merely on being a math joke, since I've had enough exposure to math to know that, despite what some people may think, mathematicians do speak English. However, far be it from me to stand in the way of other people's jokes. :-) If you want it to bear some resemblance to the formal statement of a theorem, you'd probably go with what I changed it to, though. That's why I changed it the way I did. Anyways. -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 12:28:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482BF37B5FF for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r34.bfm.org [216.127.220.130]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:29:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000525142809.008cdbb0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:28:09 -0500 To: Doug Barton From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <392D5DE7.FB5A9918@gorean.org> References: <000001bfc5e7$6f024440$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 25-05-2000 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > To simplify things fairly dramatically, if you're making more money >this year than you did last, and you can also _buy_ more this year than >you did last, that's economic growth. If you're making more this year, >and you can buy less, or roughly the same that's inflation. What then do you call my reality? I'm making the same as last year but can buy less. Prices have gone up, wages did not. The rich in my town are getting richer, the poor poorer. Seems like economic growth for some, shrinkage for others. Adam P.S. This is a small town and does not reflect the economy of the rest of the country (US). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 12:39:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A700637B56C for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (p163.usr.linkfast.net [208.170.100.163]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FB7D9B05; Thu, 25 May 2000 14:38:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00ae01bfc680$dddff9e0$a364aad0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: , References: <000b01bfc35d$c8c3c030$0200a8c0@bill> <20000522032013.B76442@mooseriver.com> Subject: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD? WAS:Re: IE for FreeBSD Petition Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:38:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org *snip* > I general I find it best to have nothing to do with microsoft. I buy none of > their products, I will not work on or support any of their products, and I > will not work for them or any of their subsidiary. I suggest that if you > dislike microsoft, the way they do business and their rotten products, shun > them. If system admin types start refusing to have anything to do with > microsoft and their products then business will have a harder and harder > time finding people to support the microsoft products they have installed > in their environments. Business will also have to pay higher rates for those > admins that are willing to support microsoft products. This may cause > business to take a second and harder look at FreeBSD and Linux. > > > Josef If you start doing silly, stupid crap like that, you are no better than Microsoft or any other butt-sniffing corporate dog. If you choose personally to shun Microsoft (or any company) because you don't like the company, that is obviously your choice; but, to encourage other people to shun another company and/or that company's products to further your own personal agenda, and that of a sister company or organization or organization's product(s), you are offensively attacking the company you are against. Instead of being a bully about business, why not make a better product, or improve one that exists already, market the product, and allow the consumer to decide if they want the Good Stuff or the Bad Stuff. I am personally against using Microsoft products. Although I wrote truly this e-mail using Outlook Express (one of the worst Pieces of Shit ever). I would like to provoke thought from you (all) for once: Think about people who traditionally use Microsoft products. Think of their inteligence, their ability to think reasonably. Are these the people you want using FreeBSD, or any intelligent operating system? Does not it make far more sense to *encourage* these types of people to use Microsoft, or at least something other than that which you and I use? Do you really want these people polluting the FreeBSD user base? Complaining about the *intelligent* things that FreeBSD does? As more of these stupid (excuse me) people start using FreeBSD, and Unix in general, we (the users, developers, everyone) will start to mutate our Good Working Software and Hardware to do stupid things like Windows. Just imagine if Mutt started running scripts automatically by default. What if FreeBSD asked (*gag* choke *puke*) ``Where do you want to go today?'' ? As I start thinking about having to support these stupid people for (Supreme Being, do save us) FreeBSD, I also begin thinking about having my toenails peeled off one by one along with tearing off my flesh layer by layer. If you ever have done Windows technical support, for any field, you know damn well that these people do not belong on FreeBSD. Keep them where they are; avoid them if you choose; but, *DON'T* drag them into my safe, comfortable, intelligent, sensical home. I love FreeBSD, and plan to master it, and use it to do good in this world. Please, I beg you, keep FreeBSD smart. Dan dragged to -chat from -questions. The thread there may continue still. > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.0 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 12:50:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oracle.clara.net (oracle.clara.net [195.8.69.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD09637B67F for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 12:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from merlin@netlink.co.uk) Received: from [212.126.141.7] (helo=A470.com) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12v3eR-0004MV-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 May 2000 20:50:40 +0100 Received: (qmail 99617 invoked by uid 1000); 25 May 2000 19:53:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:53:40 +0000 From: Darren Wyn Rees To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD? WAS:Re: IE for FreeBSD Petition Message-ID: <20000525195340.L93219@netlink.co.uk> References: <000b01bfc35d$c8c3c030$0200a8c0@bill> <20000522032013.B76442@mooseriver.com> <00ae01bfc680$dddff9e0$a364aad0@leviathan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ae01bfc680$dddff9e0$a364aad0@leviathan>; from grasshacker@linkfast.net on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 02:38:42PM -0500 Organization: A470 X-No-Archive: yes X-PGP-812C54B1: F8 79 5E 84 F0 20 A5 62 FA 2D E9 BD BE 06 7D 10 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gh : > I am personally against using Microsoft products. Although I wrote truly > this e-mail using Outlook Express (one of the worst Pieces of Shit ever). It ceases to amaze me how many people accuse Microsoft of writing "shit" software, whilst typing their diatribe on aforementioned s/w. :-) What is so difficult about conceding that Microsoft have written some user-friendly software that sells exceptionally well ? And Microsoft s/w tends to install first time. For many people, that is more important than anything else. Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 16:31:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1048537BDB3 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23779; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:31:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:31:28 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Darren Wyn Rees Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD? WAS:Re: IE for FreeBSD Petition In-Reply-To: <20000525195340.L93219@netlink.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 May 2000, Darren Wyn Rees wrote: : :What is so difficult about conceding that Microsoft have written :some user-friendly software that sells exceptionally well ? It sells well. IT's not user friendly. : :And Microsoft s/w tends to install first time. For many people, :that is more important than anything else. And the second, third, fourth and so forth times too! David, who had to reinstall printer drivers on his windoze box (my employer insists on using microsoft mail crap) for the third time in a month today. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 16:50:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.psn.net (pluto.psn.net [207.211.58.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A0C37B6C2 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@argon.blackdawn.com) Received: from 01-036.dial.008.popsite.net ([209.69.194.36] helo=argon.blackdawn.com) by pluto.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 3.14 #1) id 12v7O1-0002OF-00; Thu, 25 May 2000 16:49:58 -0700 Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E40781912; Thu, 25 May 2000 19:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:48:17 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Brian Somers , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: Please clean up your mailboxes on hub.freebsd.org Message-ID: <20000525194817.O3357@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <200005252324.AAA00558@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005252324.AAA00558@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org>; from brian@Awfulhak.org on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:24:45AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:24:45AM +0100, Brian Somers wrote: > > 176 -rw------- 1 nate mail 167563 Feb 16 06:18 nate > > Should I be talking to you about this pcmcia problem ? That really should've gone to imp. ;-) > > 26 -rw------- 1 eivind mail 25962 Feb 16 06:18 eivind > > 18 -rw------- 1 joe mail 17820 Feb 16 06:18 joe > > Is that vmware commit a good idea this close to 3.4 ? Yes, and it was 4.0. > > 17 -rw------- 1 gioria mail 16442 Feb 16 06:18 gioria > > 14 -rw------- 1 nik mail 13333 Feb 16 06:18 nik Did anyone notice that all of the above were last touched on the same date and time? > > 11 -rw------- 1 asami mail 10617 May 25 09:49 asami > > 3539 * 3 He needs to start singing again. :-( -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 17:43:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BDAC37BE60 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 17:43:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 75566 invoked from network); 26 May 2000 00:43:29 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 26 May 2000 00:43:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 16555 invoked by uid 211); 26 May 2000 00:43:28 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 06:13:28 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Warner Losh , Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes Message-ID: <20000526061328.B16522@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000525030514.A86566@mad> <200005250438.VAA63650@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000525030514.A86566@mad> <200005251738.LAA85378@harmony.village.org> <20000525142717.B94114@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000525142717.B94114@mad>; from vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 02:27:18PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek said on May 25, 2000 at 14:27:18: > On Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:38:30AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > people actually say it: > > two plus two is five for sufficiently large values of 2 or > > small values of five. > > No, it does not mirror how people actually say it: > > -- > For large values of one, one equals two, for small values of two. That is the version that I like best -- it sounds funniest to me. Maybe something to do with brevity and the punchline being at the end. > -- > > If I had fixed it to mirror how peope actually say it, it would read: > > -- > One equals two, for sufficiently large values of one or sufficiently > small values of two. > -- > > The way it will read, which everybody seems to like, is convoluted to > barely inside the boundaries of English. > > And don't blame that merely on being a math joke, since I've had > enough exposure to math to know that, despite what some people may > think, mathematicians do speak English. > > However, far be it from me to stand in the way of other people's > jokes. :-) > > If you want it to bear some resemblance to the formal statement of a > theorem, you'd probably go with what I changed it to, though. That's > why I changed it the way I did. Anyways. > > > -- > Signature withheld by request of author. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 18:24:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31ECA37B6DA for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 18:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-41.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.41]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta1/8.11.0.Beta1) with ESMTP id e4Q1OHG05002 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 20:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14652 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 20:24:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200005260124.UAA14652@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ham Shack Computer OS From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:24:12 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The current survey at http://www.arrl.org/ asks, "What is the operating system on your ham station computer?" Their first option is Linux. Closest thing to FreeBSD is either "Other" or "Unix". Once you vote, you can see the current totals. Interesting thing is the ARRL totally ignores Macintosh but the MacOS votes were 1662 to Win9x's 3144. Quite respectable for an ignored system. ARRL doesn't ignore Linux at only 512 votes so far. Unix was 40 votes, Other was 109. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 21: 4:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF84937B6F2 for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 21:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id E06849B1A; Thu, 25 May 2000 23:04:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 23:04:46 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Infinite quantities in nature! (was Re: The Ethics of Free Software) Message-ID: <20000525230446.A89273@linkfast.net> References: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> <20000524222053.A80883@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000524222053.A80883@mad>; from vanderh@ecf.utoronto.ca on Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:20:53PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Trim, trim, trim on the CC's ] On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 10:20:53PM -0400, a little birdie told me that Tim Vanderhoek remarked > > The universe must have some mechanism to remember time. Clearly the > past is different from the present. In what manner? Time, like space, is a convention, not a form. Thus, how can it be 'stored' in any way, if it doesn't strictly speaking 'exist'? > Or, rephrased, the same question: "Are there a finite or an infinite > number of states in which the universe can be?" If it's a 'universe', one would kinda have to think an infinite number of states are potentially extant. Or, at least, an unbounded finite number, which is, of course, a seperate thing, but for the purposes of this discussion is indistinguishable. > I know of no evidence that space is quantized. > > This suggests an infinite number of possible states. > > This in turn suggests that a notational mechanism can be chosen such > that infinite wealth can be accounted. See above about the status of the existence of space and time. Also, an infinite number of potential states does not mean an infinite number of possible states, and neither implies that all such states are possible simultaneously. In fact, I'd say it was impossible, since the majority (of that infinite number, which is an interesting concept to conjure with) would be mutually exclusive. And since the majority of an infinite quantity is an infinite quantity, you're left with a finite number of useful states. > However, it seems that a certain uncertainty principle should come into > play here somewhere. Perhaps a notational mechanism can be chosen to > account for infinite wealth. However, for an arbitrary notational > mechanism, we are not guaranteed to have any way to read a person's > associated wealth data. 'a persons associated wealth data' is also an interesting concept to pontificate upon, since you also have to account for the concept of 'ownership', and a potential of infinite progressions of ownership. > There is also an implicit assumption in rephrasing the question from > step #2 into that in step #3, namely that the universe can remember > time only through mechanisms that transform passage of time into > physical changes. And if you subscribe to the theory that passage of time is just an illusion caused by physical changes? "Remember" also implies a capability to progress at a non-fixed rate. (i.e., faster, slower, or reversed) (Of course the same 'illusion' charge brought against time here could probably also be brought up against 'space' on another level...) Whee, this is much more fun than the original discussion! -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 25 22: 4:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E40A537B56C for ; Thu, 25 May 2000 22:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 76093 invoked from network); 26 May 2000 05:03:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 26 May 2000 05:03:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 1480 invoked by uid 211); 26 May 2000 05:03:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:33:43 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Matthew Fuller Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Infinite quantities in nature! (was Re: The Ethics of Free Software) Message-ID: <20000526103343.A1459@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> <20000524222053.A80883@mad> <20000525230446.A89273@linkfast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000525230446.A89273@linkfast.net>; from fullermd@linkfast.net on Thu, May 25, 2000 at 11:04:46PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Time, like space, is a convention, not a form. Thus, how can it be > 'stored' in any way, if it doesn't strictly speaking 'exist'? > > > > Or, rephrased, the same question: "Are there a finite or an infinite > > number of states in which the universe can be?" > > If it's a 'universe', one would kinda have to think an infinite number > of states are potentially extant. Or, at least, an unbounded finite > number, which is, of course, a seperate thing, but for the purposes of > this discussion is indistinguishable. The number of states has nothing to do with the number of particles or the size of the universe. A particle in a box can have an infinite number of states -- continuously infinite (like the set of real numbers) in classical mechanics, countably infinite (like the set of integers) in quantum mechanics. The universe has lots of particles (perhaps infinite) in a huge box (perhaps infinitely big), why is it surprising that it has an infinite number of possible states? > possible simultaneously. In fact, I'd say it was impossible, since the > majority (of that infinite number, which is an interesting concept to > conjure with) would be mutually exclusive. And since the majority of an > infinite quantity is an infinite quantity, you're left with a finite > number of useful states. Wrong argument. For instance, the set of real numbers is infinite, and "most" of them (a mathematician would say "almost all") are irrational, but the rational numbers are also infinite in number. If you only want to stick with countably infinite sets (like rational numbers or integers), one could say the majority of integers (99% of any random selection) are not divisible by 100, yet an infinite number are. Before talking about what infinite wealth means, one has to quantify wealth. Is intellectual knowledge wealth? Certainly some people are willing to pay for it. But the amount of undiscovered knowledge about the universe is infinite. Is software wealth? The number of programs that could be written is infinite. How much of that wealth is realisable in the sense that you can keep writing software and people will keep buying it and making you richer? Certainly not an infinite amount, but probably "unlimited" which is different from "infinite" -- you can't put an upper bound and say "the pie can grow so big but no bigger". R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 5:31:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [212.74.0.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EC937BE2A for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 05:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@pavilion.net) Received: from genius.systems.pavilion.net (postfix@genius.systems.pavilion.net [212.74.1.100]) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA43731; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:31:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from joe@pavilion.net) Received: by genius.systems.pavilion.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id C2DB4109; Fri, 26 May 2000 13:33:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:33:17 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Brian Somers , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: Please clean up your mailboxes on hub.freebsd.org Message-ID: <20000526133317.D75704@pavilion.net> References: <200005252324.AAA00558@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200005252324.AAA00558@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org>; from brian@Awfulhak.org on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:24:45AM +0100 X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, Lees House, 21-23 Dyke Road, Brighton, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 12:24:45AM +0100, Brian Somers wrote: > [.....] > > 18 -rw------- 1 joe mail 17820 Feb 16 06:18 joe > > Is that vmware commit a good idea this close to 3.4 ? Actually, "what on earth are file flags ?" :) Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 6:39:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clever.visp-europe.psi.com (clever.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A8337B84D for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 06:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip89.berlin68.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.68.89] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by clever.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 12vKKP-0004hL-00; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:39:06 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id C00D52263; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:38:48 +0200 (CEST) To: Tani Hosokawa Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Salon article on BSD References: <20000516084731.A49446@happy.checkpoint.com> <200005160645.XAA23891@sharmas.dhs.org> <20000516022741.B28657@riverstyx.net> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 26 May 2000 15:38:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: Tani Hosokawa's message of "Tue, 16 May 2000 02:27:41 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tani Hosokawa writes: > On Mon, May 15, 2000 at 11:45:26PM -0700, Arun Sharma wrote: [...] > > BTW, there is a company that Larry McVoy founded, (www.bitmover.com) > > whose only purpose was to help Linus maintain his sanity. I'm not > > sure if Linus plans to use it. > > I think it's actually www.bitkeeper.com, in case anyone cares. The company is BitMover, Inc. and the product is BitKeeper. The have both domains, each website with the appropriate focus. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 6:43:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED4337B8D3 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 06:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (p224.usr.linkfast.net [208.170.100.224]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 18A879B03; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:43:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <034801bfc718$6c7988f0$f864aad0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , References: <4.3.1.2.20000523191700.049c5260@localhost> <20000524101006.A29351@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:43:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Doug Barton said on May 23, 2000 at 18:34:55: > > On Tue, 23 May 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > My purpose in posting to this thread at all was merely to point > > out that there is another view, so that people who don't have a background > > in economics are not tempted to take the "There's only one pie, and it's > > always going to be the same size" argument seriously. > > And this, by the way, is the archetypical communist argument. They > want to redistribute wealth because they think you can only become > rich at the expense of someone else. > New corollary to Godwin's Law: communism. Hits a thread almost every time. Dan > R. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 7:19:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DFD037B593 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (p224.usr.linkfast.net [208.170.100.224]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E43E39B03 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 09:19:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <040a01bfc71d$616792e0$f864aad0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE for FreeBSDPetition Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:19:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 25 May 2000, gh wrote: > > >Do you really want these people polluting the FreeBSD user base? > > An emphatic YES. That is the whole point of advocacy. This sort of > effetism is wrong. The entire community is full of MS users. Many people > on this list "brought me up" in the unix world. To these folks I am > grateful. > > >As I start thinking about having to support these stupid people for (Supreme > >Being, do save us) FreeBSD, I also begin thinking about having my toenails > >peeled off one by one along with tearing off my flesh layer by layer. > > I wonder what the world would be like if doctors said this. > > >If you ever have done Windows technical support, for any field, you know > >damn well that these people do not belong on FreeBSD. > > I have and you are still wrong. I have seen some very newbie folks come > through, self included. > > >Please, I beg you, keep FreeBSD smart. > > Indeed. For instance, it is not very smart to lambaste Josef Grosch. We > all use his code. > > The whole point of free software is that there is a community that > contributes to the cause. That includes inculcating new members to the > community. We dare not discriminate against anyone. If we do, we shall > loose that one thing that makes the community and the technology, the > people. > Thank you, good sir, for completely ignoring my statements. I said that we should not encourage the *worst* of *any* usergroup to use FreeBSD. I said specifically that I encouraged bringing people to FreeBSD, but not forcefully shoving the lowest denominator into the FreeBSD world. To further my point, almost everybody starts in the computing world in a Microsoft environment simply because Microsoft is so widely known and used for whatever reason, such as its psuedo-ease-of-use. That being as it is, the likelihood that a large number of reasonable people are using Microsoft is quite high and because of this reality, I say that we *should* bring these people to FreeBSD, I too, and one of these people. However, for those who are happy in a Microsoft world, for whatever reason (id est laziness, stupidity, ignorance, or any of the plethora of reasons). I apologize if either I was not clear enough in my first several e-mails or if you and others truly have missed my point. Either way, I hope it is clear by now. Dan > Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells/ > Jason Wells > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 8:43:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE9F37BD99 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from ip43.r12.d.bel.nwlink.com (ip43.r12.d.bel.nwlink.com [207.202.175.43]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19158; Fri, 26 May 2000 08:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: gh Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE for FreeBSDPetition In-Reply-To: <040a01bfc71d$616792e0$f864aad0@leviathan> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 May 2000, gh wrote: >Thank you, good sir, for completely ignoring my statements. > >I said that we should not encourage the *worst* of *any* usergroup to >use FreeBSD. I said specifically that I encouraged bringing people to >FreeBSD, but not forcefully shoving the lowest denominator into the >FreeBSD world. You argument is still arrogant and elitist. All denominators should come and we should welcome them. Here is why. Say one of these LCDs comes to FreeBSD, tries real hard, doesn't quite get it and quits. Then that person one day is an exec over a group of sysadmins. That person will have learned an appreciation for unix. This is a good thing. Say one of these LCDs is a dotcommer who is destined for greatness. It would be a shame to let that one go because we were snobs. I sure wish my boss had tried FreeBSD at least once. As far as computing goes he is the person of which you speak. Had he a slight appreciation for what I do, my life would be so much better. Hey, if you don't want to help the LCD, then don't. No skin off your nose. And by the way, trust Jordan, Greenman et al to do a good job. They don't ruin the performance of FreeBSD to make it easier. So don't worry. >I apologize if either I was not clear enough in my first several e-mails >or if you and others truly have missed my point. Either way, I hope it >is clear by now. Just because I disagreed with you does not mean I missed your point. I got it. "Your way is not the way of the Huron," to make an arcane movie quote. If someone comes to us with an open mind, then we should welcome them with an open mind. I have helped some very clueless people as some people have helped a very clueless me. This is the way of the Huron as I see it. I have been told to RTFM along the way. In my folly, I have even put down people in this camp who have been committers and authors of O'Reilly books. They still tolerated me and my sophomorisms. I thank them for their tolerance. They made a sysadmin out of me for free and now I get paid. Pretty damn good deal if you ask me. Thanks Jordan, Dag-Erling, Greg, Doug, David, Wes, Terry, and many others! (A list of big shots who took valuable time to help stupid me.) *BSD already has a rep for being snobby. Let's not proliferate that by actually being snobby. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells/ Jason Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 16:39:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF6C37B95D for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA82574; Fri, 26 May 2000 16:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <392F0B39.FC7F84F2@gorean.org> Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:39:37 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0523 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: gh , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Fri, 26 May 2000, gh wrote: > > >Thank you, good sir, for completely ignoring my statements. > > > >I said that we should not encourage the *worst* of *any* usergroup to > >use FreeBSD. I said specifically that I encouraged bringing people to > >FreeBSD, but not forcefully shoving the lowest denominator into the > >FreeBSD world. > > You argument is still arrogant and elitist. All denominators should come > and we should welcome them. While I agree with this on principle, and have worked very hard for the last several years to "lower the bar" for competent freebsd administration, the plan fact is that at some point on the curve you run out of resources to support people with a very low clue factor. If you're willing to put your fingers where your mouth is and answer the questions, write the documentation, do the patches, etc.; that's great, and we will welcome your contributions. But in this context simply saying, "FreeBSD SHOULD do X" is not very meaningful. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 21:20:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EFC37B752 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 21:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from ip32.r1.d.bel.nwlink.com (ip32.r1.d.bel.nwlink.com [207.202.172.32]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09912; Fri, 26 May 2000 21:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:04:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition In-Reply-To: <392F0B39.FC7F84F2@gorean.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 May 2000, Doug Barton wrote: >"Jason C. Wells" wrote: >> >> You argument is still arrogant and elitist. All denominators should come >> and we should welcome them. > > While I agree with this on principle, and have worked very hard for the >last several years to "lower the bar" for competent freebsd >administration, the plan fact is that at some point on the curve you run >out of resources to support people with a very low clue factor. If >you're willing to put your fingers where your mouth is and answer the >questions, write the documentation, do the patches, etc.; that's great, >and we will welcome your contributions. But in this context simply >saying, "FreeBSD SHOULD do X" is not very meaningful. I do agree that not _everyone_ can be supported. I maintain that we should not be inclined to reject folks out of an elitist bent. I can add the context that I knew about when I was writing but failed to share with everyone else. :) My contribution to FreeBSD is (I took a hiatus but I am back now) mostly -questions stuff. I write with a predisposition towards how we approach handling people that approach us through -questions. -questions being the place where the clueless first meet the rest of us. My thoughts during this discussion should never be construed as a request to dumb down the OS. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells/ Jason Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 22: 8: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E26D37B9FA for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 22:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (p237.usr.linkfast.net [208.170.100.237]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F13F9B2D; Sat, 27 May 2000 00:07:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Jason C. Wells" , References: Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:07:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My thoughts during this discussion should never be construed as a request > to dumb down the OS. I think it is safe now to say that we all essentially agree. ``We'' being the FreeBSD userbase, developers, everybody. -We should welcome *all* to the FreeBSD world. -We should *not* lower our expectations to benefit the majority (ie: clueless majority) -We should do what we can to help those new to FreeBSD. -We should absolutely *not* dumb down the OS. We could, however, provide assistance, in, perhaps, more friendly terms(?) -We should at all times maintain an attitude of friendly, helpful, snobbiness. ;-)) Eh? Perhaps said more eloquently, but that's pretty much the gist of it, no? Dan My main, I suppose one could call it so, fear was that the OS is becoming `dumbed down' to benefit those lacking clues. > > Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells/ > Jason Wells > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 26 23:36: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 80FB837B948 for ; Fri, 26 May 2000 23:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 888 invoked from network); 27 May 2000 06:35:57 -0000 Received: from du40.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.40) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 27 May 2000 06:35:57 -0000 Message-ID: <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 02:35:24 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition References: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gh wrote: > > > My thoughts during this discussion should never be construed as a request > > to dumb down the OS. > > I think it is safe now to say that we all essentially agree. > ``We'' being the FreeBSD userbase, developers, everybody. > > -We should welcome *all* to the FreeBSD world. > -We should *not* lower our expectations to benefit the majority (ie: > clueless majority) > -We should do what we can to help those new to FreeBSD. > -We should absolutely *not* dumb down the OS. > We could, however, provide assistance, in, perhaps, more friendly terms(?) > -We should at all times maintain an attitude of friendly, helpful, > snobbiness. ;-)) > > Eh? > Perhaps said more eloquently, but that's pretty much the gist of it, no? I think the important thing is not to create false expectations (of ease and simplicity) in the minds of those who have never been exposed to a real operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 27 1:42: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F70337B75F for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 01:42:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26900 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 27 May 2000 18:41:57 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 18:41:54 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Message-ID: <20000527184152.G3471@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net>; from Thomas M. Sommers on Sat, May 27, 2000 at 02:35:24AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 27, 2000 at 02:35:24AM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > I think the important thing is not to create false expectations (of ease > and simplicity) in the minds of those who have never been exposed to a > real operating system. Yes, and I think that these old and very unofficial guidelines still apply: http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html (Note that there are no answers, no scores, just self-evaluated comfort.) While the implied requirements do sound severe, this level of knowledge, experience and attitude is still required for smooth sailing. If this document makes you lose hair, FreeBSD will too. Presenting this to potential new FreeBSD users could save a lot of future upset on both sides, and give people the opportunity to identify areas where they could benefit from more preparation before starting. Its brutal honesty would also turn people away in droves. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 27 11:40: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FD637B94B for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 11:40:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from ip217.r8.d.bel.nwlink.com (ip217.r8.d.bel.nwlink.com [207.202.173.217]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07972; Sat, 27 May 2000 11:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 11:22:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: gh Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition In-Reply-To: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 May 2000, gh wrote: >-We should at all times maintain an attitude of friendly, helpful, >snobbiness. ;-)) This made me laugh. This should be a mission statement at some hifalootin' country club. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells/ Jason Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 27 12: 9:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D5237B537 for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 12:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14618; Sat, 27 May 2000 22:07:46 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:07:46 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Infinite quantities in nature! (was Re: The Ethics of Free Software) Message-ID: <20000527220746.A14516@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000524205815.A79001@mad> <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> <20000524222053.A80883@mad> <20000525230446.A89273@linkfast.net> <20000526103343.A1459@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000526103343.A1459@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Fri, May 26, 2000 at 10:33:43AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 10:33:43AM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Wrong argument. For instance, the set of real numbers is infinite, > and "most" of them (a mathematician would say "almost all") are > irrational, but the rational numbers are also infinite in number. If > you only want to stick with countably infinite sets (like rational > numbers or integers), one could say the majority of integers (99% of > any random selection) are not divisible by 100, yet an infinite number > are. This is in fact incorrect, because there is no satisfactory definition of a random selection on integers: no probability space can be defined on the integers which could give an equal probability to every integer number. Defining precisely just how we can formalise the notion of "almost every" integer number being non-divisible by 100 is surprisingly difficult. Probably the easiest way would be to calculate the probability on segments [-n,n], and point out that the probability stays 99% in the limit n->infinity. This isn't as convincing as "real" random probability, but it's pretty convincing nevertheless. > Before talking about what infinite wealth means, one has to quantify > wealth. Is intellectual knowledge wealth? Certainly some people are > willing to pay for it. But the amount of undiscovered knowledge about > the universe is infinite. Is software wealth? The number of programs > that could be written is infinite. How much of that wealth is > realisable in the sense that you can keep writing software and people > will keep buying it and making you richer? Certainly not an infinite > amount, but probably "unlimited" which is different from "infinite" -- > you can't put an upper bound and say "the pie can grow so big but no > bigger". "Unlimited amount" is quite scary when you think of it. This is what the original question boils down to, anyway -- can the universe "encode" an unlimited number of bits of information? What I pointed out in an earlier message is an important fact that even if the number of particles in the universe has a permanent upper bound, encoding unlimited information is still possible by using ever-growing distances. One could probably design another way to do that with ever-growing time distances -- i.e. use two time sources and manipulate their phase differences; you can make it as large as you want and encode information in it. Your calculations will then also grow slower inevitably as the amount of information grows, just as in the encode-information-by-distance scenario. I wonder if this is a universal rule of some kind. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 27 13:48:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D20F37BA03 for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12vnVi-0002AY-03; Sat, 27 May 2000 22:48:42 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA60791 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 27 May 2000 22:41:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Date: 27 May 2000 22:41:53 +0200 Message-ID: <8gpbuh$1rba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net> <20000527184152.G3471@welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > Yes, and I think that these old and very unofficial guidelines still apply: > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html In your opinion, is it a part of the exercise that this document is in English? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 27 14:36: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE34237B9FE for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29691; Sun, 28 May 2000 07:35:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 07:35:30 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Message-ID: <20000528073517.H3471@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net> <20000527184152.G3471@welearn.com.au> <8gpbuh$1rba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <8gpbuh$1rba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Sat, May 27, 2000 at 10:41:53PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 27, 2000 at 10:41:53PM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > > Yes, and I think that these old and very unofficial guidelines still apply: > > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html > > In your opinion, is it a part of the exercise that this document > is in English? Absolutely not! -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 27 19:45:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 8BB9137B746; Sat, 27 May 2000 19:45:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jhix@mindspring.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <392C7D17.359FD8E7@mindspring.com> (message from W Gerald Hicks on Wed, 24 May 2000 18:08:39 -0700) Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-Id: <20000528024515.8BB9137B746@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I worked for two years at the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. During that time, I was able to meet and observe the work of several members of the Federal Open Market Committee. Based upon that experience, it is clear to me that your statements are unencumbered by having to face reality. They are some of the most careful and dedicated people that I have met. jmb > > Terry Lambert wrote: > [snipped] > > I have never really understood the idea of the chairman of the > > U.S Federal Reserve bank raising interest rates "because the > > economy is running too hot". There may be good reasons for > > artificially braking the economy from where it would go in an > > otherwise unregulated system, but I haven't ever seen any math > > to tell me why where it would go in an otherwise unregulated > > system, at least for the interest rate constraint, would be an > > undesirable place. > > > > You forgot about the chicken bones they toss around to help decide these > matters :-) > > For you conspiracy theorists out there, several reports are in that > GeeDubya wins big in November if the economy tanks. It's well known > that Mr Greenspan is a staunch Republican. > > IMHO, far too much power rests at the Federal Reserve Bank. > > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > jhix@mindspring.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message