Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:05:34 -0700 From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> To: "Andrew C. Hornback" <achornback@worldnet.att.net>, "Doug Hass" <dhass@imagestream.com> Cc: "Jim Bryant" <kc5vdj@yahoo.com>, "MurrayTaylor" <taylorm@bytecraft.au.com>, <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>, <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG>, "Alfred Shippen" <ashippen@metromatics.com.au> Subject: RE: FYI Message-ID: <000201c15608$9170cb20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> In-Reply-To: <00fd01c155c4$8851d5a0$6600000a@columbia>
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>-----Original Message----- >From: Andrew C. Hornback [mailto:achornback@worldnet.att.net] >Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:59 PM >To: Doug Hass; Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Jim Bryant; MurrayTaylor; freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; >freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG; Alfred Shippen >Subject: RE: FYI > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Doug Hass >> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:53 AM >> To: Ted Mittelstaedt >> Cc: Jim Bryant; MurrayTaylor; freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; >> freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG; Alfred Shippen >> Subject: RE: FYI >> >> > And if you want to sell these to FreeBSD users then make your >> Linux driver >> > source (not the SAND stuff) available so that we can mod it into our own >> > driver. Many other companies do this and as a matter of fact, >> we (meaning >> > FreeBSD) have even found bugs in crummy Linux drivers that have >> been reported >> > back to Linux and helped those manufacturers better their products. >> >> I'm not going to get dragged into an OS war. Both Linux and FreeBSD >> have their share of "crummy" drivers and features. That discussion is >> honestly beyond the scope of a discussion of ImageStream's SAND >> architecture and the WANic 400 series. > > I don't believe Ted was trying to start an OS war, he's not >that petty of a >person. been there, done that. :-) No, it's not an OS war, just trying to illustrate why making source available is a Good Thing. His point, and I hope that I'm not reading this incorrectly, is >that FreeBSD not only has fixed problems with drivers released by hardware >vendors, but also with drivers given over to "us" by the Linux group, as >that was all that we had to work with when the hardware vendors have refused >to provide any help whatsoever. > correct. >[snip] > >> > No offense, but once Imagestream stopped selling WANic400's you >> > ceased being an entity of interest to FreeBSD, as you no longer sell >> > any products that run under it. >> >> I'll reiterate what I've said to you privately: ImageStream DID NOT make >> the decision to discontinue the 400 series or the RISCom/N2 series. This >> decision rested solely with SBS. >> >> However, FreeBSD users are NOT without options: >> >> 1) FreeBSD users can still get the WANic 400 and RISCom cards from the >> second hand market, as another person mentioned. > > What is wrong with THIS picture? You're telling people to >purchase used >hardware, instead of purchasing components from your company? *shakes his >head* > I'll point out that the "1000 cards closed out" is not "used" hardware, it's brand new stuff that's never been opened. This is quite common in the hardware industry. The difficulty is finding out who that highest bidder was and if they are going to use those 1000 cards for themselves or are going to sell them off in dribs and drabs over the next 10 years. >> 2) WANic 400 series cards are still available in quantity. If the market >> for FreeBSD is as large as you claim, then you or someone else in the >> community should have no problem snapping up a quantity of these cards and >> reselling them to interested parties. I'll go one step further: If anyone >> contacts me about the WANic 400 series, mentions that they are for >> FreeBSD, I promise to give an extra 15% discount over and above our normal >> volume discounts just to illustrate my desire to support the FreeBSD >> community. > > Perhaps a better idea, if I may be so bold, would be to offer >samples of >the newer cards (520 series, I believe they are) to FreeBSD developers >interested in producing drivers, software and utilities for these cards. >After all, you are saying that the 400 is EOL. Wouldn't the idea of >engineering samples be more beneficial to all involved? > Just about every hardware vendor is happy to provide samples to developers, anyone working on this would get plenty of support. >> 3) Virtually ALL of our customers, save for OEMs making their own >> products, purchase complete routers. Going this route would eliminate the >> need to have FreeBSD support, as any user would have a standalone router. > > This sounds quite argumentative to me. Simply because >everyone else is >buying a router, there's a refusal to support FreeBSD, since people with >"true routers" would have no need for using FreeBSD as a router engine. > No company is going to support a product that has no market, and it's reasonable to ask who would buy these cards since Cisco's are so cheap on the seconds market. > It's a vicious cycle that I believe we're seeing here... >chicken and the >egg, or rather, the driver and the market. Without a proper driver, there >won't be a market for this card to be used with FreeBSD. However, without >the manufacturer seeing visability in this market, there won't be a driver >as it would be a waste of their developers time. > This is the truth for commercial projects. Open Source drivers, on the other hand, operate somewhat differently. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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