From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 4 17:34:29 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2C11065697 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2009 17:34:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from xcllnt@mac.com) Received: from asmtpout030.mac.com (asmtpout030.mac.com [17.148.16.105]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5EC58FC13 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2009 17:34:28 +0000 (UTC) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Received: from macbook-pro.jnpr.net (natint3.juniper.net [66.129.224.36]) by asmtp030.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTPSA id <0KPG00HV4JH99750@asmtp030.mac.com> for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:34:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Marcel Moolenaar In-reply-to: <20090904135252.GA23438@lonesome.com> Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:34:21 -0700 Message-id: <642B63E0-0F75-45FD-9E8D-58D990F7C8EB@mac.com> References: <200909010931.16880.nick@van-laarhoven.org> <1251841416.1689.4458.camel@balrog.2hip.net> <200909021656.15747.nick@van-laarhoven.org> <20090904100847.GA13167@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <20090904101630.GA17207@camelot.theinternet.com.au> <20090904135252.GA23438@lonesome.com> To: Mark Linimon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Cc: FreeBSD CURRENT Mailing List , peterjeremy@acm.org Subject: Re: Reducing noise in dmesg output X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:34:29 -0000 On Sep 4, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > No one has mentioned the other reason to leave in verbosity: so that > users > who are having problems can file more useful PRs. This is > particularly > true of video cards (which, as one might recall, is where this thread > started.) This has always been an interesting fault-line. Yes, if you print or log "everything" then there's bound to be useful information somewhere that can be used to analyze problems. Approaching this from the glass half-empty angle, I can see why people value verbosity. It's an easy case to state: without it we don't know what went wrong. There's a flip-side and it's one that's much harder to argue for. Arguments against verbosity include such things as: 1. The signal/noise ratio is worse which means that it's easier to miss the information that is truly important. 2. You present the user with output that's not even directed towards the user -- it's an aesthetic bug. 3. It introduces performance problems, especially on slow consoles. 4. If it works, it works and the verbosity is unnecessary. Much more subjective... As long as we depend on verbosity to provide us with the information we need to solve a problem, it's really hard to convince people that we should make it more user-oriented and print only things that are of value to the user. Which means that unless developers value the user perspective and are willing to put in the effort to allow for another way of obtaining the information, verbosity is hard to reduce. It's not in the developer's interest. That is, unless the problem reporting is actually much better if done differently. -- Marcel Moolenaar xcllnt@mac.com